86 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7c08c69d81cb6124f404fda082583094.mp3 5a9c2a166eb7637736b6fcf7335b3843 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2 February 2018 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mikayel Harutyunyan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text Mikayel Harutyunyan was born in Yerevan, Armenia, and moved to New York in 2012. He received his Bachelor's degree in  Graphic Design from Binghamton University in 2020. While studying at Binghamton University, he was the Graphic Design Intern at Pipe Dream Newspaper. Harutyunyan plans to work in either product design or graphic design in the entertainment industry. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Mikayel Harutyunyan Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 2 February 2018 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:13 JK: My name is Jacqueline Kachadourian, I am interviewing, um, for the Binghamton University Oral History Project Today is February 2, 2018. Um, will you please state your name for the record? 00:25 MH: My name is Mikayel Harutyunyan. 00:28 JK: And can you give us some biograph-uh, biographical information like where you are from. 00:33 MH: Yeah, um I was born in 1998 in Armenia, Yerevan, uh and since then I have moved to America, um, for studies. 00:47 JK: And, um, growing up in Armenia, uh how long did you live there until you moved ̶ 00:53 MH: I lived there until I was thirteen years old. 00:55 JK: And then you moved to the United States? 00:57 MH: Yes. 00:59 JK: And, um, would you tell us about your parents, u their occupations and their role in [indistinct] ̶ 01:04 MH: Uh, my dad is a businessman, uh so he does multiple ̶ he, he deals with multiple companies, multiple different jobs. And my mom is a ̶ used to be a banker, an accountant and then she is now a stay at home mom who studies in college. 01:25 JK: And did you have any siblings growing up? 01:27 MH: Yes I have. When I was growing up I had a one year like an older brother whose one, one years old one year older than me. But now I also have a, a eight year old small brother. 01:39 JK: And did you attend Armenian lang-language school or bible school or ̶ 01:43 MH: Uh, well yeah when I was in Armenian I was in an Armenian school. 01:48 JK: And, uh, did you ̶ assuming in Armenia you spoke Armenian ̶ 01:53 MH: Yes. 01:54 JK: Uh, did you learn any other languages like Turkish or [indistinct] ̶ 01:57 MH: Uh, I learned Russian. 01:58 JK: Russian. 01:59 MH: Uh, Russian is the second language for Armenians in Yerevan. 02:03 JK: And, um, uh, did your family a-always stay in Armenia in like the past, or did they move from different places to Armenia? 02:13 MH: Yeah, uh, my mom's side, uh, had lived in Armenia in, uh, I mean both of the sides have lived in Armenia but not Yerevan ̶ only the, uh, grandparents, uh, my grandparents that moved to Yerevan and since then their kids, uh, my mom's side comes from, uh, uh, Hoktemberyan. And my dad’s side comes from, uh, [indistinct], in Ijevan. 02:41 JK: And, um, did your family ever go through the Armenian genocide or were they not part of it? 02:50 MH: Uh, I know that my mom's side was affected because her, um, her uncle's parents they, they were separated at, uh, when they were moving away from Armenia, or fleeing Armenia to come to U-the US. They, uh, separated-the older and the younger brothers were separated because they were put into, uh, different, uh, home services for kids, uh, and they accidentally ̶ one of the kids' names was changes ̶ last names was changed so they do not even have the same last name even though they are cousins. 03:31 JK: Mhm, and did they ever reconnect, do you know? 03:33 MH: Yeah they, they reconnect they reconnected later on and, uh, they are bo ̶ all, all of them are in, uh, America ̶ or -Los Angeles. 03:40 JK: Okay. And, uh, growing up in Armenia, was it like ̶ um, moving to the United States ̶ how was it similar or different? 03:51 MH: Uh, I feel like my parents were always kind of, um, like, uh, they, they were active in the US ̶ in Europe they traveled a lot so we were kind of used to this ̶ the English language, watching stuff in English, um, we ̶ I mean obviously I was not good at speaking, uh, I thought I was because I studied in Armenia but turned out when I first arrived it was not easy, um, but after a while, I got used to it. 04:16 JK: Um, growing ̶ uh when you moved to the United States, uh, what part did you move to? 04:21 MH: Uh, we moved straight to New York, um, yeah Westchester. 04:26 JK: And were there a lot of Armenians in the area or no? 04:28 MH: Not a lot at all, uh, and the Armenians that are there, they have been here for such a long time that it is kind of different, uh, yeah. 04:37 JK: And, um, growing, growing up in Westchester did your parents speak Armenian in the household or did they ̶ 04:44 MH: Yeah, uh, we speak in Armenian but my younger brother he started losing the ability to speak Armenian so he just ̶ he usually has a tough time speaking but yeah we usually speak Armenian in the household. 05:01 JK: And did you guys accustom to like, uh, American standards or did you guys keep with the Armenian traditions? 05:08 MH: I think we kept ̶ we most likely kept like the traditions, the Armenian but we also incorporated the American stuff like Thanksgiving and Christmas even though we Armenians do not celebrate those two. Um, but we ̶ but we also keep the Armenian Easter and stuff January 6. 05:26 JK: And when you were in Armenia did you attend church regularly? 05:30 MH: Hhm not regularly, we, we would attend obviously for any, um, weddings and, uh, and, uh, what is it called other, other events that happen in the church and we would go sometimes to pray and, um, light candles but not regularly, I would not- 05:49 JK: Um, was it were you [indistinct] living in Westchester, uh, the Armenian community, or was it mostly your [indistinct] your American friends? 05:58 MH: Uh, we are ̶ we have one, uh, family friends in-a few minutes away from us in Westchester but, uh, usually my friends are American, uh, and we, we usually ̶ we ̶ there is an Armenian church in Westchester that we attend sometimes but we do not really know anyone from there. 06:19 JK: And coming to Binghamton University, um, do you know, do you know if there is a big population of Armenians or have you seen-? 06:28 MH: I have not really seen much I have seen just a couple people that are Armenian and, uh, I do not really think there is a big community here. 06:37 JK: Yeah, um, and then let us see, so growing up in the household in, uh, Armenia what was it ̶ what was it like compared to like now within like the classes et cetera, school life? 06:56 MH: Uh, yeah I mean obviously school life is much different I was going to a public, uh, private school in Armenia, uh, which was kind of more similar to American schools than any other school in Armenia so I am kind of more used to it but at the same time it is, it is obviously different and, uh, the household seems to be the same not, not much of a difference there. 07:17 JK: And, uh, have you ever been back to Armenia since you left or ̶ 07:21 MH: I ̶ yeah, I, I cannot go back and I have not been there before, uh, since the five years I have been here because once I go back there is a problem with the Armenian, uh, army and even pe-people with citizenship in the United States, uh, uh, that are-that have come, uh, from Armenia and then became citizens they can still, uh, be taken to the army even if they go back. 07:46 JK: Oh okay. 07:46 MH: Yeah. 07:47 JK: And do you have any family in Armenia or are they ̶ 07:50 MH: I, I do yeah I have my, uh, dads, uh, side, grandma and uncle. 07:55 JK: Okay. 07:56 MH: With-with kids and wife. 07:58 JK: Um, if it was possible would you want to go back or ̶ 08:00 MH: Oh yeah, of course, I would like to visit. 08:03 JK: Yeah and, uh, what were the ̶ what were the circumstances in which you guys had to come ̶ or leave Armenia and come to the Westchester ̶ were you happy about it or were you ̶ 08:14 MH: Uh, yeah I think, uh, it has been ̶ my dad has been planning it for a while, not planning but thinking about it because my so in around 2000, uh, around the year 2000 my grandparents won the, the green card and went to LA. My, my mom's side, uh, yeah grandparents went to live in Glendale which has a very big Armenian community and, uh, since then obviously the idea was to join with them ̶ join-go to America was pretty vivid but, uh, we pushed it as education and obviously avoiding the war and, uh, avoiding, uh, going to the army. 09:00 JK: And, um, you ever you think you guys would ever go to Glendale or ̶ 09:09 MH: Uh. 09:11 JK: ̶ Probably stay in Westchester. 09:11 MH: Um, there is an idea I mean yeah if, if anything it there is its different circumstances obviously but, um, it depends on what happens but the idea to move to Glendale is not, not a terrible one there is ̶ it is a big community there but, um, I, I feel like this is better ̶ kind of not too close to the community because I know that many people who live there they just do not even learn English because they have everything they need to just speak Armenian and not, um, get American ̶ not get Americanized I guess. 09:46 JK: And, um, what were some of the Armenian traditions that you guys kept in the household like did you guys celebrate Armenian Christmas as opposed to traditional Christmas? 09:56 MH: We ̶ I guess we cel ̶ we celebrate both, um, we celebrate the American one and the Armenian on January six, uh, and, um, yeah, yeah we, we kept those kind of traditions. 10:14 JK: Um, and then growing-as you grow older, grow older do you want to keep those traditions in the household like speaking Armenian? 10:23 MH: Yeah, yeah definitely I, I would like that I'd like it if-if we kept it and even, uh, other type of traditions, too in, uh, I guess marriage and stuff. 10:33 JK: Mhm and, um, it is important to your parents to, uh, for you to keep those traditions not just like yourself but your parents want you- 10:42 MH: Uh, I do not know actually, um, they have not really ever specified they need the traditions kept I guess it is just assumed that we are going to and, uh, we never ̶ me and my brothers never said that we were not I guess it is ̶ it is kind of obvious for us. 10:57 JK: Yeah, um, uh, coming to Binghamton and obviously the United States what were some of the new traditions that you guys, uh, brought into your household? If, you know, any ̶ or ̶ besides holidays and stuff. 11:14 MH: Um, I do not, I do not think there is anything that big, uh, not, not really no. 11:24 JK: And, um, when you went to ̶ I am assuming you went to high school in Westchester? 11:29 MH: Yeah. 11:29 JK: Um, did-were people surprised that you were from Armenia like did they know about Armenian culture? 11:38 MH: Uh, they would ask because I, I have an accent and stuff they would ask about it but, uh, it would ̶ they would assume or they would like pretend that they knew where, where it is but obviously it is like such a small country it is not really ̶ but people were interested yeah people were wondering about stuff and I, I tried to kind of show my culture as well. 12:01 JK: And, um, what-what do you think that makes ̶ what makes you most Armenian in your eyes? Like what is ̶ 12:08 MH: What makes me most Armenian? My nose [laughs] No, uh, I do not know, uh, I guess, uh, the way I think I guess is very Armenian traditionalist I guess, um, and, uh, political views I guess a little bit but- 12:30 JK: Um, do you ̶ what do you think is the ̶ do you think like church is an important Armenia like what makes ̶ what do you believe that makes Armenia like important? The language, the culture ̶ 12:42 MH: Yeah the, the language is very important because, uh, our letters are our own we do not even it, it does not come from any trees it is just created by us and we speak it and it is really rare for a language to have a ̶ to be like that for such a small country and history is very important obviously, um, pride, um, and church is too. 13:07 JK: And do you think Armenia could re ̶ uh, remain without the language or the church of the homeland or ̶ 13:14 MH: Um, can Armenia remain without having a homeland? 13:18 JK: Yeah, like ̶ 13:18 MH: Yeah like I get what you are saying the history traditions stuff. 13:21 JK: Yeah. 13:22 MH: People ̶ when people usually ̶ I mean you can kind of see it in, uh, people who have moved here a lot of them, uh, try to keep the traditions and they do go to church but sometimes it just does not work out and slowly they, uh, get more Americanized which is fine I guess but, uh, there are so many Armenians all over the world in completely different places and they ae all completely different but they are all proud to be Armenian. I guess that is how it can remain. 13:50 JK: And you see, uh, bringing the topic up ̶ do you see a difference between the Armenians who are in Armenia and like, uh, the diaspora ̶ 13:57 MH: Yeah defin ̶ definitely I went to camp over the summer, uh, the Armenian camp. All the people ̶ most of the people there were I would say 95 percent were American-born in American or Canada and, uh, it, it is not, it is not something specific but it is obviously different than from people in Armenia than how people in Armenia are. 14:20 JK: Uh, do you know any ̶ like could you name any examples or it is just gener ̶ like general. 14:25 MH: It is just that ̶ I really cannot it is just, just the feeling of the interaction just the culture I guess but they do keep ̶ I know that they are strong in keeping the tradition of church every Sunday they, they would have a church, um, they would invite, uh, like a preacher ̶ Armenian preacher and they would have church. 14:46 JK: And, um, uh, let us see how would you identify yourself as like Armenian-American, American-Armenian? 14:57 MH: I would just say Armenian. 14:58 JK: Armenian. 14:58 MH: Yeah, I ̶ not, uh, I guess it is too early to say Armenian-American yet. 15:04 JK: Um, and, uh, for your siblings like you and your older brother and you and your younger brother do you communicate them ̶ to them with-in Armenian or ̶ 15:15 MH: Yeah with my, uh, older brother I definitely do. With my younger one, I try to but sometimes he does not understand some things I say so we switch to English but usually, I try to communicate with them in Armenian. 15:28 JK: And, um, um, as you grow older do you want to move back to Armenia if it was possible or do you want to stay? 15:51 MH: Um, permanently probably not I would want to move, move back. Sometimes I do think about how my life would be different if I stayed in Armenia but at the same time, I think the opportunity in America is way too large to miss out on, um, since I am already here. But I would want to visit Armenia. I definitely ̶ I would want to go for a couple months at a time. 16:12 JK: And, uh, going back to like your past history like your past family history, uh, you were saying how your mom's family was affected by the genocide have you ever visited like the villages they came from-they are still intact? 16:27 MH: Uh, the village my, my, my, my mom’s side is on is, uh, I visited many times and same, same with my dad's side. Actually I visited the dad's side even more because in Ijevan, Ijevan is right next to Azerbaijan border but it, it really was not affected by, uh, the war and, uh, by the genocide with the Turks so, um, we visit there all the time. And my-my mom's side it is Hoktemberyan we, we would go there I, I was a kid I would go there more because my grandparents were here ̶ were back in Armenia, um, but yeah, uh, but the original, original sites like in even in Turkey that, that has been taken over ̶ I have not visited those. 17:08 JK: Would you want to if the opportunity arises [indistinct]. 17:13 MH: Probably not. I, I people go to Turkey a lot of time from Armenia but, uh, I do not know I have never felt the urge to do that. 17:23 JK: And, uh, what ̶ do you know the reason why your family decided to stay in Armenia rather than re-relocate, uh, during that time? 17:32 MH: Oh during that time. I really do not know why. I think I think both the villages-both of the villages that they stayed in were not really that affected, um, Ijevan my, my dad’s side, uh, I guess and they were not it was not like they were staying there permanently it ̶ my grandparents were already in Yerevan, uh, both of them so it, it was not going to affect them as much, uh, or like with Azerbaijan. So I guess it, it just happened to be really convenient to stay, safe. 18:08 JK: And, uh, was it was there any difficulties coming to the United States at a young age? 18:17 MH: Yeah, uh, obviously there is going to be, uh, is ̶ you are going to be having a tough time the first couple months because of the language barrier, uh, my grades were not that great and then, uh, and when ̶ they did get better obviously because, um, I came to Binghamton ̶ I needed to go to college um but it was tough, uh, the language barrier was always I mean there and culturally were also completely different from American people so, socially, it was also affected. 18:51 JK: And, um, and I know you already mentioned this but it's important to keep the tradition of speaking Armenian alive and to uphold the Armenian traditions, um, why-why is it important for you to [indistinct]. 19:12 MH: Um I, I would say I am like nationalist [laughs] nationalistic towards Armenia. I mean I really love my country, um, so, uh, keeping the language is number one way to keep the traditions alive ̶ keep the culture alive, uh, language is very important and you can see it in, uh, every immigrant group that has moved; Italians, Irish, uh, all the, uh, Latinos that moved from different countries they, they, they keep ̶ they have sections of country where there is a lot of them and they speak the language because they need to keep the culture alive in a different country, um, so it is important to, uh, keep our Armenians ̶ like Armenia ideology. 20:00 JK: Um, is there anything else you would like to add? 20:03 MH: Uh, no I, I think, I think that is it, yeah that is about it. 20:05 JK: All right thank you. (End of Interview) Keywords Armenians; Traditions; Yerevan; Church; Culture; New York; Family; Language; Family. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mikayel Harutyunyan https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8ed675ff6bafa558614695c7747d57af.jpg e6ca1479354b3d7e8a19d2b07d9a424e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/acb2073b4b7437854d8de544f3d4bd6e.mp3 53924ed6e9e6465746379802c8966a5e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-08-04 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mike Roselle Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 128:16 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mike Roselle is an environmental activist and author. He is one of the co-founders of the radical environmental organization Earth First!, the Rainforest Action Network, the Ruckus Society, Climate Ground Zero, and is the former director of Greenpeace USA, Board member of National Forest Protection Alliance, former timber campaigner, and a part of the Resource Conservation Alliance. Roselle has been arrested about 50 times in his activism career."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Mike Roselle is an environmental activist and author. He is one of the co-founders of the radical environmental organization Earth First!, the Rainforest Action Network, the Ruckus Society, Climate Ground Zero, and is the former director of Greenpeace USA, Board member of National Forest Protection Alliance, former timber campaigner, and a part of the Resource Conservation Alliance. Roselle has been arrested about 50 times in his activist career. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Christianity; Saigon; Victims of War; Forgiveness; Vietnam Memorial; Suffering; UNESCO; Tragedy of War; Terrorism; Love; Hope; Peace; Kindness."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Vietnam War; Christianity; Saigon; Victims of War; Forgiveness; Vietnam Memorial; Suffering; UNESCO; Tragedy of War; Terrorism; Love; Hope; Peace; Kindness. Subject LCSH Environmentalists; Authors, American--20th century; Roselle, Mike--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mike Roselle Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roselle, Mike ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Environmentalists; Authors, American--20th century; Roselle, Mike--Interviews Description An account of the resource Mike Roselle is an environmental activist and author. He is one of the co-founders of the radical environmental organization Earth First!, the Rainforest Action Network, the Ruckus Society, Climate Ground Zero, and is the former director of Greenpeace USA, Board member of National Forest Protection Alliance, former timber campaigner, and a part of the Resource Conservation Alliance. Roselle has been arrested about 50 times in his activist career. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-08-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.155a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.155b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 128:16 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d1eb842ea99c4ee5ac96f35d04667b7e.jpg 42154d4ef792ddbc8f4013acba43ecbf https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1af3a49383c69edca75990b94228125e.mp3 5e18c007cc882e568ba1fb81658b0120 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mildred (Mit) Joyner Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 93:12 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mildred (Mit) Joyner is a pioneer in teaching, research, writing, and community activism. Joyner has served leadership positions in social work professional organization, including the National Association of Social Workers (NASW), the Council on Social Work Education (CSWE) and the International Association of Schools of Social Work (IASSW). She is Emerita Director and Professor of Social Work at West Chester University in Pennsylvania. She received her Bachelor's degree in Social Work from Central State University in Wilberforce and her Master's degree in Social Work from Howard University. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5039,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,5099745],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Mildred (Mit) Joyner is a pioneer in teaching, research, writing, and community activism. Joyner has served leadership positions in social work professional organization, including the National Association of Social Workers (NASW), the Council on Social Work Education (CSWE) and the International Association of Schools of Social Work (IASSW). She is Emerita Director and Professor of Social Work at West Chester University in Pennsylvania. She received her Bachelor's degree in Social Work from Central State University in Wilberforce and her Master's degree in Social Work from Howard University. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Civil rights movement; voting; social worker; Baby boom generation; retirement; activism; African-Americans; Black Panther; Freedom Summer; \r\nMillion Man March\r\n"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4993,"3":{"1":0},"10":0,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Civil Rights Movement; Voting; social worker; Baby boom generation; Retirement; Activism; African-Americans; Black Panther; Freedom Summer; Million Man March; Senator Edmund Muskie; Civil War Generation; Confederate Flag; Generation Gap; WWII; Joseph L. Galloway; Trust. Subject LCSH Social service; College teachers; Community activists; West Chester University of Pennsylvania; Joyner, Mildred (Mit)--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Mit Joyner Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: Not dated --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) MJ (00:00:00): [inaudible]. SM (00:00:07): First, I want to take this opportunity and thank you very much for taking time out of your busy schedule to answer some questions. As a reminder, the reason why I am doing this project is to do oral history interviews of approximately, hopefully, between two and 300 different people. Some people are very well known in history. Some people are not known. But the goal is to try to combine two things with each of these interviews. Number one, the personal experiences of these individuals that I am interviewing, and also as they reflect on the history of this year and the impact of the boomer generation on AmeriCorps in the last 30 years. And I guess the first question I really want to go into is recently, probably the last couple years, we have heard a lot of commentary, a lot of criticism of attacks on the boomer generation, the generation of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, the generation that a lot of people historically linked to the ending of the Vietnam War, the involvement in civil rights, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Native American movement, Latino movement, as many movements as possible. But the criticism is pretty central on the whole generation as to the reasons that the breakdown of America is being blamed on them. So what I am trying to get from each of the interviewees, and that is the first question I want to ask you, what are your thoughts when you hear people who will generalize about the boomer generation as the reason why we have problems in America today, like the breakup of the family, the increase of drugs, a lot of the issues, and they all seem to go right back to the time when boomers were in their youth? And of course, these boomers are categorized as people born between 1946 and 1964. So your thoughts on these generalizations that are oftentimes leveled at a whole generation? MJ (00:01:51): Well, basically, generalizations to me are just that, generalizations. I thought that the (19)60s and the (19)70s brought with it its own empowerment and empowerment to do different things. And some of those things were things that people in our society now would classify as negative things. But on the whole, it really was a positive time because it brought about the empowerment of each group feeling good about their own particular culture. And so for the very first time, we were dealing with more of a strength perspective. And I know at that particular time, I was in high school... started school in the (19)50s and then going all the way through college. And it was not until I went to Central State University that I really saw the empowerment of that movement. And sure, we were going through our own, which White says, our own conversion experience. And by that, what White says is that you go through five stages, and there was a negro to black conversion experience where it was a pre-encounter stage where you just did things because people told you how to do them. And then it kind of moved into an encounter stage where you realized that there was no... The equity in our society only existed for a few. And the immersion stage, which I think our race went through collectively from the (19)60s to the (19)70s, was to immerse yourself about and learn about your race. And that was at the exclusion of everything else. And then came out your immersion stage where people were really stronger in our society. And the fourth stage is the internalization stage, where you internalize those good values and throw away those bad values that you learned. And then obviously, the fifth stage is your internalization commitment stage. Well, as a race of people went through this, there were a lot of negative things that occurred during the immersion stage. There was burning of bras, the burning of draft things, drugs, free life and all that. But I think what emerged was a much stronger group of people. So when people say that to me about, "Look what your generation brought," it brought some negative things, but that was necessary in order to move to a stronger group of people. And so everything has a yin and a yang. And so the yin and the yang of that was, yes, it brought about a freer society, but I would rather have freedom than to have the rigid society that we were experiencing before World War II. SM (00:04:28): Let me just... [inaudible] the next question. If you were to look at again from your own personal perspective, your own metaphor... A lot of the reasons why we are doing this is everybody has their own metaphor, and not to be pre-judgmental of any person's beliefs. How would you categorize this generation right now in 1997 in terms of its overall impact on America? MJ (00:04:57): It is a generation that is trying to find its people, trying to find out what are the values that are collectively right for our nation. I think they are a generation of triers. And with people who have... probably the first group of people who have major obstacles that are outside race, gender, and class, but technology and access to power through money. And so I think they are trying to build a nation that is equal for all people, but there is just so many obstacles that are in young people's ways. SM (00:05:41): ... thing is when you look at today's boomers, they are the parents of today's college students, the person who works with college student’s day in and day out, and of course you teach students. Do you think, from your own personal experiences, that the boomer parents have really shared the experiences of their youth with today's college students? Because what we see is only 18 percent of today's college students, according to a Chronicle of Higher Education poll who have an interest in politics, we see a low numbers of young people voting. Their parents do not vote. And here it was during that generation that the fight was for the right to vote. What impact are boomers having on today's college students, not just college students because half the people do not go to college, but on today's youth? MJ (00:06:26): Again, I can only speak about this from my perspective, but because I am a believer of what people fought in the civil rights movement for us, we are voters in our family, and my kids vote. When it is voting day, my husband and I just say, "It is voting day, and all of you go to the booths and vote. We do not care what you vote." But we ask them a little bit about, the night before, what about the candidates and why they are making the choices that they do. We are a very political family with my husband's job in terms of being on the federal bench. And the only way he was able to get there was through people voting him on the ballot when he was getting on the county bench. So I think in our family system, we have a very political family. And again, I believe that apples do not fall far from the tree. And so I do not know if it is today's boomers who are not teaching kids to go to the ballot box, but I can say in my family, it was very important for my father that I go, and I do not miss a chance, even when it is awful years, and there is really not that much as people say to vote for. And I think I am giving that value to my children, and I would hope that they would carry it on. I think they understand that one vote does count, and we often show them and analyze the next day in the paper of how many people lost the school race just based on the fact that such very few people voted. And we are also trying to teach them the power of the vote, that if they really wanted to run for something, and they were able to get their contemporaries to vote for them, most likely because of the apathy that is in our country right now, that they could probably win the ballot. So we preach that. SM (00:08:10): Would you say though, that within your personal experience then, this has been a very important part of your life? You share the experiences to transfer this importance of the vote, being involved as a citizen in this country. But as you look at the students that you teach, your everyday dealings with today's college students, and even your peers who are boomers, are they failing in this area? Not you personally, but are they failing? MJ (00:08:34): I think so. I think a lot of people in our society find it too easy to switch about something and not really bring change. Even here in the social work department, we try to teach the value of voting. That is because that is a philosophy that we hold here. So I will say to my students, "Bring back your little voting ticket and show us that you voted, and we will give you a test for that," to encourage people to... And we talk about the platform because social work is made up of those individuals who we have a responsibility to speak for who are powerless. So it is real hard for me to talk about my colleagues because most of my colleagues that are involved... Let me turn this off. Most of my colleagues that are involved with that decision... In social work, we teach voting. And so most of my colleagues are social workers. So most of the time... And it would be interesting to do a study of how many social workers really do vote, but because our job is to, and part of our code of ethics is to, speak out on people who are not able to speak out from themselves due to lack of wealth or what their life circumstance is, the whole profession teaches a commitment of the ballot box. And so being social workers have to be involved because we speak for the poor. I mean, that is part of our code of ethics. SM (00:09:59): If you were to describe the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, and I say that we know that within the boomers, which is from (19)46 to (19)64, there is intergenerational differences. Like boomers who were born towards 64 have a hard time, I believe, personally, in terms of relating with those born (19)46, say, to (19)56. Could you give us some characteristics, some adjectives to describe the boomers, the positive qualities of the boomers and some of the negative qualities? MJ (00:10:29): Some of the positive ones, qualities of a boomer, is commitment, the ability to move up the system. Most people are doing better than their parents. Materialistic. That can be an asset and a liability. Caring. Instant need for gratification. Again, an asset or a liability. And I guess the one that I really like is that they are transcendent. They have the ability to go beyond what is expected. And so the negatives of that are sometimes they are workaholics or they have some kind of addictive part of their personality due to the needs of to show out and be the best. And I think their transcending character sometimes has caused health problems, really not able to enjoy family the way they wanted to. SM (00:11:37): If you look at some of the ideas that young people had in that time... Say for example, picture yourself on a college campus, whether it be a predominantly African American campus or a white campus of the mid to late (19)60s and early (19)70s. There seemed to be a sense of empowerment among young people that we are going to be the change agents for the betterment of society. We are the most unique generation in American history. We are not going to stand for the status quo. There is something wrong in this nation, and we are going to right it. And then as these boomers got older, Vietnam War ended, civil rights is still an ongoing issue, but you did not see the Dr. Kings out there like we used to have. As boomers went into their (19)70s and then into the (19)80s and now into the mid to late (19)90s here, have they kept those ideals or how would you rate this generation? MJ (00:12:45): Well, I would give it about a 95. I think most people are successful. They are doing better than they ever thought so. Now, what does better mean? Does better mean they are doing better economically? Yes. Has that caused them to work more and be more self-centered? Yes. Have they changed their vision? Yes. Have they given in to establishment? Yes. I think that the boomers have learned that there are certain things that are status quo and that the way to change the system, what we thought before was just to change that system through not participating or just demanding a change, we now realize that you have to work within the system to get change. So I think their vision has changed. They have become more proactive rather than reactive. And I do not really write a lot of them off because I know a lot of people that I went to Howard University with and Central State University that are tops in their field. And they would have never been able to have that prior to the (19)60s or the (19)70s. But their love for politics is not which we thought it was, but back then, a lot of people did not participate in politics anyway. I mean now they are at least voting. But I mean, I just look at where they have come, and I worry about that for my own children because I do not really think that they will ever have a level of success, this generation, that our generation was privileged to have. And so I feel this generation is going to have to learn how to settle for less. We all have our own homes, two and three cars, several people have summer homes. What happens to this generation? Because I think they kind of bottomed out. I mean, I think that they go back to wanting less. The charge card is starting to own them. And so I worry about that, but I think I would give them a 95. SM (00:14:46): When you say 95, though, certainly you are thinking about your metaphor, the people that you know, but it is also a known fact that when Tim Penny was on our campus, he said one of the biggest failures of the boomers was the fact that they do not know how to save, that the average savings account for a 50-year-old is less than $10,000. They may have a home, but they see marriages were late. Kids were raised late. They are putting kids through college up to 60. So we are talking about people that are doing well, but they actually have nothing in the bank. They are like three payments away from being in bankruptcy almost. So we are dealing with a lot of concerns. Now, that is just from a political standpoint, but it is- MJ (00:15:31): Again, but that is two cultures that I think clash. That is the culture of my parents who believe that you have to have money in the bank to save. And then there is the culture of the boomers who spend what they get, acquire assets, and can download those assets. So a lot of times savings, because you watch banks just kind of eat up your money and play games with your money... And there is also the need. I said instant gratification is something that I think boomers have. There is a need to go on a vacation rather than to save every penny you have for the next 20 years because a lot of us have watched our parents die at a young age without ever getting the things that they worked for. And so I think you see two cultures that clash a lot, the clash of our parents' culture, who you save things, and you do not have anything until you can pay for it. And then it is this that has learned how to use the market of credit. And it is probably this generation's living longer than our parents' generation because we do not work as hard, or at least at times we work very hard, but we give ourselves the rewards for it. And so that may mean debt for some people, but our generations learned the system of how to pay off a debt, bankruptcy. And that is why you have more debt. SM (00:16:51): Would you say that some boomers, like some parents live toward retirement, the World War II generation, they look forward to retirement, that boomers oftentimes may not believe they will even survive to retirement? Do you think there is some perception there? MJ (00:17:04): Or they choose not to retire. I think we realize that retirement... A lot of us are workaholics and retirement brings with it some kind of settlement of having to realize that. It also does not give us the dollars to live the lifestyle that you want. And it sure does say that you are not worthy. I mean, in American society, unless you are working, you are really not a worthy person. And there is too much stats to read that Alzheimer's and people forgetfulness and all that occurs once one person retires. So I think there is a fear of retirement, not just because of the economics, but because of the vitality that the boomers always see themselves as. SM (00:17:45): Two basic issues are central to the lives of boomers. We know statistically that only about 15 percent of the young people, when they were young in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, were involved in any kind of activism. But I have always been of the perception that even the 85 percent who were not involved were subconsciously affected by that period and may have been late bloomers in terms of getting involved with these kinds of issues in their everyday lives. These two issues, of course, being the Vietnam War and civil rights. Certainly the women's movement and a lot of the movements took place. But when you think of this period, you think of the activism in those two areas. In your own opinion, do you believe that the students on college campuses... Why did the Vietnam War end, in your opinion? Was it because of the protests on college campuses, or was it something else? MJ (00:18:38): I think it is because the America was losing, and there was a shame because we were losing. And I think that we felt that for a long period of time that we would have the ability to win that war. And when we realized that there was no way that we could win that war, we pulled out and brought our boys back home. I think the idea of finally coming to terms with the fact that we were losing was brought on by a lot of the protests on college campuses because we realized we were just sending people over there and they were dying for what? And if we were winning, we would have probably had a different feeling about it. But just looking at the many people that I knew that went to Vietnam, for what? It was a country that had had its own way of fighting a war through underground, of which our men had no knowledge about. And we really did not have an understanding of why we were there. So I think that college campuses brought out that, and the citizen who had never sent their child or daughter to the walls of college began to buy into what college students were saying. It is like, show me the money, so to speak. If we are winning, we will stay there. If we are not, then let us pull out. And basically, I think to the existence today, that is how we participate in all of these wars that are throughout the United States. If we can go in and show that we have force and get people to listen to us, we go. If we do not, we will not. SM (00:20:08): ...you respond to people who will say that... I have interviewed so many people on this project so far that there is diverse opinions. But that we all know who went to war. We all know that the college students were basically getting pardoned out of the war because their parents were rich and they had ways of getting out, whereas the inner city kids, people who were from poor backgrounds, both white and black and all colors could not do that. As one person told me, they were afraid to die. And that is the bottom line. And of course, they were involved in issues like the draft. And when that battle was won, then the whole movement ended. And then another person would say, "Well, really, when body bags kept coming home and middle America saw their sons and daughters dying, when middle America decided it should end, that is when the war really came to an end." So let us not give a lot of credit to these young college students who are basically naive. What are your thoughts on those kinds of diverse opinions? MJ (00:21:08): I think the system was set up, and until this day is still set up, for people to go into the armed forces who do not have money. That happens to be people of color or whites who are poor. I mean, the Army, Navy, that is the catch-all for all the people that are poor, a way to get away from your high school. And so it was not a surprise that most people who went to Vietnam were those people who could not afford to go to college. I think, however, that America seeing the body bags come home is sure one of the reasons why the war stopped, but they were body bags of poor people. I do not think, however, that wealthy people were trying to do anything but protect their sons and daughters, and poor people tried to do the same thing. No matter what, you would try. I mean, there were times when mothers were sending their kids to Canada, where parents were trying to get their kids in school. So everybody. I know my brother... You get that number that people got, and you are going to school whether you want to go or not. So everybody. And that to me is just, whether you have money or you do not, you try to protect your own because nobody wants to see their child going off to war. Whereas before, going off to the armed services as an officer was a great thing, and most wealthy people did that. They would go off into Quantico and go to these various little military bases and become an officer. But at that particular time, no matter what you were, and there were a lot of officers who were wealthy, that went off in body bags as well. So I do not think we were as sophisticated to say it was these against those. It just so happened that the bottom got trapped because the system was set up that way. SM (00:22:59): How was it when you were a student at Central State as an undergrad, now? Were the students of Central State protesting against the Vietnam War, or was Central State more into the civil rights issues? How was that? MJ (00:23:13): It was more the civil rights issues because although a lot of people say politically, a lot of people were not involved in the politics at that time because the church was the backbone of the politics, the African American church. I think what African Americans went through was the violent versus the nonviolent movement. There was the Martin Luther King followers, and then there was the Malcolm X followers. And I mean, had we been sophisticated as we are now, we would have probably known both men contributed a lot, and we did not have to make those choices. But one, the choice that you were in is that if you were a Martin Luther King follower, then you were church-going and you believed in God. But if you were a Malcolm X follower, you were an atheist or you did not believe in God. And really that is where African Americans got more caught up on. Had- Really, that is where African Americans got more caught up on. Had nothing to do with war. It was whether you believed in the violent or the non-violent movement, which I look back on today as a lot of regret. Because I probably would have learned a lot more about the philosophies of Malcolm X, and probably would have backed a lot of them. But because, from your family system, that was seen as something that was way outside, you just did not look at it as seriously. You tried to get into the Martin Luther King. And it was not until Martin Luther King was assassinated that I think African Americans totally went with the philosophy of Malcolm X and the Black Panther Party. And Muslims began to be the thing that everybody saw a little bit more positiveness of, because they really were helping in the community. SM (00:24:53): The other issue, of course, is again, you gets right into the issue of civil rights, and the Boomers involvement. Keep in mind, in the summer of (19)64, which was within the Freedom Summer, Boomers, that is the end group of the Boomer generation of (19)60, so 46. We are talking about the oldest person would have been 18. MJ (00:25:13): Mm-hmm. SM (00:25:14): And of course, most of the people that went down there were already in college, were 19, 20, 21', 22, or in their mid-20s, late-20s. (00:25:20): The question I am trying to ask all Boomers, or people involved in this project is, how important were the boomers with respect to the Civil Rights Movement? MJ (00:25:29): They were the Civil Rights Movement. If you look at any of the, Eye on the Prize series, you see those young people. NAACP at that particular time was doing a lot of recruiting. And a lot of people were involved in the Mississippi Summer Project, March on Washington, and the Church was giving the backbone of that. And there was a lot of things going on, what group you really wanted to follow. But basically the NAACP, Adam Clayton Powell, all of those individuals, were pulling a lot of people in. And they were young people. They were people in your high schools. NAACP had branches within the high school. And they had these youth organizations where you would participate in the NAACP from a youth perspective. So, it was the young people. SM (00:26:24): Critics, who will say that, "Well, wait a minute. The Boomers just latched onto this. They were followers. They were not early leaders." Because in [inaudible] Freedom Summer had already happened. Now the march in Washington was (19)63. The oldest Boomer would have been 17 years old. MJ (00:26:37): Mm-hmm. SM (00:26:38): You do not buy that argument, then- MJ (00:26:40): No. SM (00:26:40): ...that they were not- MJ (00:26:44): No. I think they really were the backbone. And still to this day, I think the Boomers still, I think that is why the Million Man March was so successful, because it was the Boomers reclaiming that time, again, going back. I still see that need to organize, the need to speak out as a collective group that really came out of the March on Washington. That was such an empowering thing to watch, or to listen to, and how to recreate that. And I think that is why the Million Man March was successful. We will see if the March for the Women is just as successful. But if you notice, it is generally, who attended the Million Man March were basically people of color, coming together to speak as a force. I do think it was successful. And again, I have to state that most of these experiences that I am speaking from are from an African American perspective. SM (00:27:37): Mm-hmm. MJ (00:27:37): And it is very hard for me to look at it from a female perspective, or very hard for me to look at it from a White perspective, which may be different. My experience was not that. I was quite active, even in my own college. And at that particular time, I was not in college, I was in high school. But my father and mother were very active in the movement, and very active in Civil Rights people. We had the coffee klatches in our house. And people would come and talk. And many, many times there were White people that would come to the house. They were friends, and people like that. And voting was talked about in our house. So, I can only talk about it from that perspective. Now, if I was Mit Joyner, and I was a White woman, I do not know how I would be talking about it, or whether it would have been a topic of conversation. I lived in an integrated neighborhood. My father owned his own electrical contracting company and had a lot of problems because he was African American, and owned his own company. And the union did not really want him at first. And then, they wanted him because they wanted to contain him. So, those things were talked about a lot, which brought my transcendence out. SM (00:28:43): That is good. Thank you. It is just about the end of this side. Have you changed your opinion at all over the last 25 years, towards the Boomers. When you were young, looked at the Boomer generation, and now you are looking at them in 1997, have you been consistent in your opinions toward them? Or have you changed somewhat? MJ (00:29:05): Well, I have changed in terms of some of the workaholic part of a Boomer, the need for work, the need to have more money. I do not think that is as important. I think people that were poor can be very happy. Somewhere, we believe that poor people cannot be happy, but they can be. I believe that the healthcare is more important than what you can give your kids. If you can give your kids yourself versus all of these things that you leave them in a will, probably leaving them yourself is a better asset. So yeah, I have changed. I have changed into not having to worry about everybody, and worrying about myself. SM (00:29:52): Yeah. That is a very important commentary. MJ (00:29:58): [inaudible] Yeah. Well, just worrying about everybody, to worrying about myself. I think, at that time, the Civil Rights, we worried about our entire race, and moving them along, and making sure that everybody had. African Americans are still member people, that we worry about every member within our family system, and everybody within our extended family, and everybody within our community or on a street. And that can kill you. You have to learn how to worry about yourself, and to acknowledge other people, but people have the right to make choices. And some people are on this path of self-destructiveness, and there is not too much you can do to stop it. SM (00:30:43): I want you to respond to this that I mentioned earlier, about a quality that Boomers looked at themselves as, and that is they are the most unique generation in America history. MJ (00:30:51): Mm-hmm. SM (00:30:52): Now, that is quite a statement. MJ (00:30:52): Mm-hmm. SM (00:30:54): But a lot of them believe that. Do you think, in your own opinion, that the Boomer generation is the most unique generation in American history? MJ (00:31:01): No. No. If I look at it in terms of African Americans, I often look at the slaves that came over from another country, and started us all over again. The strength that it had to take to learn a different language, to learn how to eat different food, to be free, and then be enslaved for no other reason, just because of the color your skin, and to fight to get out of that. I think that, for African Americans, is probably the strongest generation that we have. Because they were people with nothing. And they fought for freedom. When you read the life of Frederick Douglass, and you look at, he was a slave, was not allowed to read, and became a candidate for Vice President of the United States. That just is remarkable to me. Remarkable. SM (00:31:58): Okay. I am going to go into another section here. One of the things that I am trying to be involved with this project is the concept of healing. I made many visits to the Vietnam Memorial in Washington. I tried to get a grasp and an ambience and a feel for what happened with the wall, which was supposed to be geared toward healing the Vietnam veterans, their families, their loved ones, and certainly trying to help the nation to heal because of those times. But every time I go down there, I see probably a lot of healing, but I see still a lot of tremendous division still, over those who were against the war, the way they were treated when they came home, middle America and how they treated us, and the perception of being baby killers, and all those kinds of things that the media had portrayed against the Vietnam veteran, which was really 3 million people who served in Vietnam. But do you feel, in 1997, irrespective of the wall, which was very important for our generation, for America, that we have healed, that we have healed from those tremendous divisions of that time, those who were for and against the war, the Civil Rights Movement in terms of being out in the streets. A lot of people will say that, part of the problems of the Civil Rights Movement was the riots that developed because of it. No one was ever satisfied with anything. The divisions in America continue today. Again, going right back there, could you concept on how important you feel dealing with the issue of healing is in America, today, on these issues that divided the nation back in the (19)60s and (19)70s? MJ (00:33:40): I believe that we heal every time there is a crisis. I think, when you look at America as a family, and we fight amongst ourselves, and there is division amongst ourselves, but I think when you come up against larger issues, I think, America has healed. And I think, in healing, it gives people the right to speak out about the differences. Some are stuck in a phase where they cannot move to the next phase. And what I mean by that is that some will always be upset and always be into a militant stance. But part of healing is accepting that person, and accepting their position, and respecting that. Healing is not wanting everybody to think like me and be like me and not to be upset with me. Healing is being able to accept the difference that is here in our society. And over the war, there are a lot of different opinions about that. There are those that went, those that stayed, those that tried to get out of it. And they all have strong reasons about why they made those choices, back then. And the healing part of that is just accepting that. And I think, the only time when that comes up is, again, for political reasons. And so therefore, I throw that out. But I think, on a whole, we know that there were draft dodgers. And I do not have any problems with them. And I also know I have friends that went over there and fought, and I have no problems with that. It was a time for people to make choices and to live up to whatever those consequences brought. And so, I think we have lived up to that. And every time I see a natural catastrophe, when we had the Gulf War, I saw a more cohesive group, that I have seen before. SM (00:35:46): I am going to give you a scenario, and experience the follow-up to this question. MJ (00:35:47): Mm-hmm. SM (00:35:47): And that is, about five years ago, we took students to Washington, a small group of our Westchester students. And we had a chance to meet Senator Muskie. And I did not realize he had just gotten out of the hospital, and he was not feeling that great. But halfway through our two-hour conversation with him, we started talking about 1968 and the convention, and so forth. And as a Boomer, I had to reveal something that I did not really want to reveal, but I wanted to. And that is that a lot of Boomers, including myself, have a problem with authority. Wherever I have worked, it is not that you do not respect the people you work for, but there is a lack of trust in anybody in positions of power and responsibility. And I know many other Boomers that have gone on to be very successful in life, but still have that quality within them, no matter where they have gone, because of what was transpiring during that timeframe. And what I was trying to get at was, to have him respond to our students about his feelings about the division of American in 1968. And when I asked him the question and gave him the description of some of the lack of trust that I still had, he did not respond immediately. Tears came to his eyes. He reflected. And then, he said, "We have not healed as a nation since the Civil War." MJ (00:37:05): Mm-hmm. SM (00:37:07): And I thought he was going to talk about Vietnam, and what he ended up doing here. That made me think. This is one of the main reasons why I am working on this project is, he said, "The Civil War generation went to their graves with bitterness toward the other side, despite all the Civil War ceremonies toward healing, between north and south. The hundreds of thousands who died, the families, the generations of families who were never to be raised, almost an entire generation of men wiped out. For what?" And the thing is, what he was saying was that, I thought he was referring, and of course, I never really was able to go back to ask because he had died. But the question is, was he referring to the fact that this generation, the Boomers, are facing the same trauma that the Civil War generation, that they are going to be going to their graves with still these inner, whether it be subconscious or conscious, bitterness toward people who were different than them, who had different ideas, no efforts being made to bring people together to try to understand each other more, because the times were tough times. Your thoughts on Senator Muskie's thoughts there, about the Civil War, and the generation of the Vietnam War, and should we, as a generation, we cannot heal everyone within a generation of 60 plus million, but should efforts be made to try to bring people together toward a better understanding of those times, so that what Senator Muskie was saying about the Civil War people going to their grave with this bitterness and hatred, and then transferring that to their sons and daughters, just your thoughts on that. MJ (00:38:39): Well, first of all, when I say America has healed, I meant it in terms of looking at it from a war perspective. I think America is really divided around race and culture. And I think and feel that, again, being African American, a lot of it is because people want you to forget your history. And whether or not retribution bills need to be paid or whatever, perhaps maybe that same public apology to African Americans for bringing them over here as slaves and keeping them enslaved for so long, is something that our nation needs to do, or at least to look at, to address. Because I do believe that most African Americans feel as though the system is really against them, or that there is some unknown thing holding them back. Had we been brought over here, even as indentured slaves, and allowed to work that off, as some of our ancestors were, we would have the old money. And we would be far along where we are today. We would be able to help our own kids in our own cities. And I think there is a lot of anger about that. And it is because America is so inconsistent. And it is still inconsistent in the way it punishes people. There are more African Americans every day placed in jails. And it is so blatant. And so, there is a lot of anger as it relates to race. Because no matter how wealthy I become, I will still be African American, and my kids may be driving a car, and the police officers pull them off because they think they do not have the right to drive the car because they are a person of color. I still have to teach my kids, in 1997, survival techniques of being an African American. And it should not be that way. And when you say that to White America, they feel as though it is untrue. People have dismissed that. "Oh, that is not true," or, "You do not really need to do that." And they think that, "Oh. We do not treat people like that." So, that anger is still there. And as it relates to the Civil War, the only thing that I feel about that is that White America often states in history classes that there has been no war fought in America. And so you ask, "What is the Civil War?" But I have problems with individuals who feel as though the south is all bad, but it is not. There are many, many good people. But I think the Confederate flag issue, and a lot of other issues, that to me, poke fun at people of color. We have not yet really talked about why a Confederate flag sends chills up and down my spot. And yet, I know often people feel as though that was their first flag, and they should fly it for other reasons. It should not always invoke the issues. But there is a little isms in it. And we have to come to understand that. And still, when you read in 1997 that there are places in the South, that just recently I read about, that has two principals, a White principal and a Black principal. There is still a lot of stuff divided on race. And it may make people uncomfortable. It may make people have to look at themselves. But until we start talking about the real race issues in America, I do not ever think we can move forward in that. And that is kind of a doom-er. But teaching race relations, that is the one beautiful thing I love about my course, is just to go over history again, and get people to see this history in a template, almost like when you look at the body, you put the blood on top. And [inaudible] you put the four cultures on top, and look at where they were, I understand why White Anglo-Saxon Protestants did what they did. Because they came from England and they wanted to create a system for themselves where they were not placed in a class system. They wanted to be able to have entrance into every level. And if you worked hard, you should move up. And the more money you have, you moved up. I understand that. But they did that at the expense of other people. And they exclude other people out. They have to also recognize that. SM (00:42:50): Could you talk about the generation gap? One of the things that was very common, one of the terms of that period, was that there was a generation gap between the Boomers and World War II generation. MJ (00:43:02): Mm-hmm. SM (00:43:03): And of course, I am certain there is generation gaps in every generation, in between Boomers and Generation Xers, today. Can you reflect on your own metaphor, your life back then, the differences between the generations, the generation gap? And then comment today on boomers and their kids. MJ (00:43:21): Yeah. I think my parents' generation was more of the depreciated character. You just did things because that is the way it was. And they did not question as much. Not to say that was wrong. That was their own survival technique. And they were all coming over. And the (19)50s were the first generation after Brown versus Board of Education, that was allowing integration. that was a win-win for them. We questioned that. "Why cannot we go into every store? Why cannot we sit in every movie seat?" They were in the movies. I am not saying that that was wrong, but I think our generation just tended to question more, and to push the system, and to try to get the system into a little bit more social consistency, and throw out a lot of the injustices that you could see. Why is it that we all have to wash the floors? "I do not want to wash floors. Why cannot I go to college?" All of those questions. I think we just questioned on top of it, and the gap really was a generation of people that, even when they were ill, they kept it to themselves. And that was my father and mother's generation. No matter whatever happened, or how dismayed they were with anybody, they kept it to themselves. Whereas our generation was one who would tell everybody. And that was, to me, the gap. Where I see kids today is, they tell everyone, but it is probably, and again, this is a Boomer quote, this is probably my kids would kill, with a lack of respect, or at least what I see as a lack of respect. I see this generation having no problems telling anybody anything that is on their mind, even at the expense of that other person not being heard. Now, history will obviously play that out, and I will not be here to be able to read it. But I just think the scary part about this group that is graduating right now is, it is reverence sometimes for tradition. Now, that may be good. But... SM (00:45:48): Is that what a lot of the Boomers were doing, though? MJ (00:45:52): Yeah. Well, yeah, that is why I say- SM (00:45:53): They were against the IBM mentality, the lookalike. MJ (00:45:57): It may well be good. No. That is not what the Boomers were doing. Because, yeah, we had a no reverence, but we realized that you had to get within that system. This group really feels as though they can do anything independent of a system. Now, perhaps they can. But I also see this group as one that financially has a lot to lose. We raised our kids in a way that they have their own rooms. A lot of them drive their own cars. A lot of them have no idea how to survive without anything. And that is the scary thing. We had less. We came from poor families. We knew how to cook bean soup, and eat that all week. Some people knew how to, you do not have any money to pay the rent, so this is what you pay first. We had all of that. You learned something from being poor. This generation does not have that experience. They are maxing themselves out on credit cards, whereas we have credit cards, but we also know you can only go up to this debt. Whereas this group, I look at the college students and my own kids, that max out on credit cards before they had their first job. We never had a credit card. SM (00:47:20): [inaudible] have a credit card, then. MJ (00:47:20): Yeah. Now, you have Visa, Master Charge. These kids go to Cancun for spring breaks, and all these places. What is going to happen when the Dow Jones hits bottom? Are they going to be able to survive? These kids want, not Hondas, they want BMWs at an early age. That is where I see the irreverence of the institution, so to speak. They do not really realize, and I do not know if it is going to have negative ramifications, but they do not know how to do without less. And I think that is why a lot of people are delaying marriage. I think our kids are coming back- That is why a lot of people are delaying marriage. I think our kids are coming back home because it is more safe with mom and dad than it is to go into a relationship with someone else. A lot of these kids have big homes with their own bedrooms and every kind of contraption known demand. Why give that up and start over? SM (00:48:25): I want to get into this whole... Since you are really talking about today's young people, hopefully this project is also going to be read by a lot of young people because I want them to understand the parents and the people and the era where their parents came from. The passion. I have a passion for certain issues, and I will go to my grave for this passion. A lot of it was because of the era that I came from, my life experiences. I know you are the same way then. You have passions for certain things. I do not see the passion amongst the young people. I cannot generalize amongst all because there are some that have passion for things. But when they see something wrong, I get a sense that I am not sure how many people want to right it in today's young generation, and I am really concerned about that. I want your thoughts in terms of-of that era and why maybe the parents did not somehow instill this in their young kids that there are certain things that are still wrong with America and this is a generational, after generation, and we have got to get it right. We have got to do better. How people approach it might be different, but still we got a long way to go. And I am not sure if I see that. I am almost seeing, what is the term I want to use, not flashback. What is the term... I do not know if they are really listening and I do not know if they want to listen. MJ (00:49:47): I think this generation's passion is money. I think this generation wants to be in that 2 percent of the population that controls 90 percent of the wealth, and that is by any means necessary. I see this generation as having a passion, but they do not share it with one another because if I share it with somebody else they may get the wealth and I do not. I think everyone is driven in that area. Does the boomer generation try to talk about that? No, because the boomer generation was caught up in that too, with gaining assets. Maybe not to the degree that this generation has that, but the boomer generation, we were all wanting to have our own house, our own car. And we have that now, but now when you look at houses that are being built, they are being built with $425,000 price tags on them. Something is wrong there. When a house that may have cost 20 years ago, 100 to 200,000 is now moving up to four and $600,000. And these young people, and again, I cannot look at this as wrong because when I ride around these neighborhoods, I see young people moving into these homes. And maybe I just have not figured out how they got there, but I think that it is by any means necessary. And I honestly think that there are a lot more people in organized crime from the white-collar perspective than there ever has been in before. When you talk about mafia and things like that, I think there is more of that now than there was earlier years. I just think we have a lot of young people who go to med school who realize, ah, to be a doctor you got to work real hard to make a lot of money, but I do have access to a few dollars and I can get some illegal drugs and sell them to a group of people. And so I think you have a lack of values in that upper class of people than you have ever had before. And that is scary to me because people got into drugs before because they were depressed, cannot have this, cannot have that. But now people are getting into drugs to make a whole lot of money. I think drugs will perhaps ultimately kill this society. SM (00:52:16): What is the lasting legacy of the boomer generation? I know it might be a little bit early, but as you see it right now, is there a lasting legacy? MJ (00:52:25): Drugs. Drugs is probably one of them. I always watch that movie Panther. We really should have worked harder to keep drugs out of this society. It is killing everyone. In a positive way, however I think it is our drive and our ability to see our wrongs, to go back and say... Everybody was so into drugs at that particular time but people are not into them like that now to that degree, because they realized how much it really killed off a group of people. I think there is not a boomer around that does not know somebody that just has not died of an overdose. And yet we are also driven people and we can right some of those wrongs. I think we have a time to right those wrongs. SM (00:53:17): I think it is too early still to be talking about the boomers and their legacy? MJ (00:53:20): Yeah. SM (00:53:20): Because President Clinton obviously is 50. Joe Galloway said, again, I interviewed him back in November. He is a Vietnam veteran. And he said that... I asked the same thing. Oh, 50, we still got from 50 to 65, you still got plenty of time. He said, "No, when you hit 50 you know you are on your, not your downward trend, but you know that your time is not going to last a whole lot longer. And that is hard for boomers to realize that they are getting older. MJ (00:53:52): Oh, I think there is nothing truer been written. I think boomers have... When we go to 50 year old parties, people try to legitimize that 50 is not old. Yet, I remember looking at my parents when they turned 50, and my God, they are old. I think boomers fear dying. And maybe that is probably one of the things that has made our group so risqué because we never really realized the fact that we can die. And we are not a very religious group of people if you look at us collectively, because most people went against their philosophies of their church because it was part of the establishment. SM (00:54:30): Right. MJ (00:54:30): And I think there is a scare of that, of trying to go out and get that right. More boomers are returning back to church and trying to get their kids involved in church. And when you look at some of the dresses and clothes that we wear, I do think that we are afraid to come to that old thing that we are not going to be here forever. I think a lot of people try to feel that they are just in the middle phase of their life, but in reality, they are at the end of their life when you are watching your friends die. And you watch people come down with illnesses that you never thought could happen to your friends. And it brings a fear, I think, of the boomer. I think that is why spirituality is returning to be in fashion in the United States is because we were such a great group to say, we do not need that. We can survive on our own. And realizing that we have not paid attention to that. Our generation is almost running back to church in droves. And that is why the churches are becoming so economically solvent and they are building so many churches nowadays is because these people who had wealth, who worked real hard every day are now sick or getting sick and realize they had not paid that much attention to their spiritual side of themselves. SM (00:55:52): What I am going to do here is... This is a question dealing with the concept of activism. A lot of the people in the boomer generation were activists in their lives. And do you see any activism at all within today's young people or generation X-ers? MJ (00:56:16): Yeah. Again, you have to take the activism and say what it is. I see the volunteer rate here in America is higher than it has ever been. Activism on school boards, activism on women's healthcare issues there. There is so much activism in the United States, but everybody does it within whatever areas that they are experiencing needs to be corrected. If you put those things together collectively, you would probably be a powerful unit. But I do see a lot of activism. The reason why I think we do not see it in a collective way is because most women and men are working today. You do not have that much time to do it and get the fanfare for it, but you are being active within your company or your workplace and your school, and that is about it. Or active within your church. Before, when mothers could stay home and involve themselves into some particular project that is completely different. But with the workforce now, with almost most women working it has changed to be activism in a different way. I think right now women are trying to learn how, or at least a woman's issue, how to be like men, when far too often we want men to be like us. But women are dying now of heart attacks and that is because they are coming to work and they have a great big job to do with all the pressures and they go home and have a family to run with all the pressures and we just do not know how to relax, and we are not used to anybody taking care of us. And so women are trying to actively learn how to be different and go home and have a dirtier house or go home and have somebody take care of their house. Some women find it very difficult to hire a housekeeper, because this is my house and I should be doing that, yet they are not there. SM (00:58:24): I got a lot of questions. We will go over this one toward the very end. I want to get back to this issue of trust because I think it is really a major issue in America today. I think it is one of the central issues about not only this current generation, but the generation of boomers, is we know because the media has told us, and we live the fact that we do not trust elected leaders because of the experiences of Watergate, the Vietnam War, the McNamara's of the world and Johnson, and how we originally got into the war in Vietnam. Elected officials not being honest with the American public. We are even seeing some semblance of it today in Washington DC because the media is portraying all these money issues dealing with campaign funds, so forth. Everybody is trying to protect their own back. And these are elected leaders. And really nobody in a position of power responsibility, whether it be a minister, a CEO of a corporation, a university president, a politician, congressman, senator, anybody in a position of power and authority is looked about with a lot of trust. And this came about from the (19)60s and the (19)70s and I think it is a lasting quality that is inherent in many boomers. And it is not just something I feel myself, but then I also know that if you cannot trust how can you succeed in life? I would like your thoughts on the issue of trust today, because you even mentioned in your conversation that many African Americans, young people, and boomers do not trust because of the way they were treated since slavery. MJ (01:00:11): Well, again, it goes back to one of my little pet peeves or theories is that with social injustice and social inconsistency causes personal impotence. And by that what I mean is that malls are so inconsistent, we treat people differently and it makes us not be able to react one way or the other. Well, I firmly believe that Americans need to know about one's whole self is unrealistic. There are people in our government that have made mistakes. Now, if we could just apply that and treat everybody the same. I think we are into the business of being into people's personal lives, and we have not learned how to separate out one's personal self and one's professional self. The standards of the professional self is what is important to me and the values of one's professional self. I could care less what you do within your own household. And as we struggled with civil rights and equality of all people, we took that not only regarding the professional self but also the personal self. And I think America is very unrealistic of what we ask for our leaders. I think we do not have enough respect for our own president. And I think we forget to place things on a timeline. I do not believe in sexual harassment, but I realize it was something that happened years ago. I am not going to hold people accountable 20 years ago for some mistakes that they may have made in that area. We are at a different place and we are starting to let politics dictate our common sense. And it is not so much politics or what is right for the country it is just to win a race. And I find both parties as guilty of it, Democrats as well as Republicans, but this mudslinging that we have started to participate as a nation is beginning to destroy us. And I also think that Americans need to know everything about everyone or we are in trouble. And so when you look at things like Watergate, it happened, it is over and we need to move on. Now was Watergate, right? No, because I think it was somebody was trying to manipulate something, so, no, it was not right. In business it is not right. But we as a nation need to move on and we have to put our trust back. How do you gain trust again? Well, you gain trust by looking at a person's public record, not their private record. And I think a lot of decisions are being made over people's private records, not their public ones. SM (01:03:19): I am going to list some names of some individuals that were well known during the (19)60s. And if you could just give a few adjectives or just some thoughts on these individuals from your own personal perspective and secondly how you might feel the boomer generation as a whole, both Black and White might feel toward these people then and now. Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden. MJ (01:03:41): Revolutionaries. And I am not going to say revolutionaries that sold out. Just revolutionaries and they were made icons because of their celebrity status. SM (01:03:56): How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin? MJ (01:03:59): Risk takers. One who really wanted the establishment to listen to another perspective. SM (01:04:10): How about Dr. Benjamin Spock? MJ (01:04:17): White values. I think he wanted all of us to be raised the same way and came out with an epistle of how to raise a family. If you did not fit in that box you were abnormal. SM (01:04:28): How about the Berrigan Brothers, Catholic priests? MJ (01:04:33): The same thing. Catholicism, a box. SM (01:04:40): Some of the elected leaders of that period. And then we will start with some of the presidents, John Kennedy. MJ (01:04:49): Person who had vision. Had a lot of, as far as a man was seen as a man with a personal side to himself that came from his family system, but I think was there for the good of the nation. SM (01:05:05): Lyndon Johnson. MJ (01:05:07): Good of the nation. Texan, southern person. Good of the nation from the old boys’ network, but the good of the nation. SM (01:05:16): Richard Nixon. MJ (01:05:18): Good of the nation. A man who saw it from a very conservative vantage point. Probably would not be a person that I would ever thought about voting for or voting for now, but I think he had a vision for the nation that he thought was important. SM (01:05:40): Now, when you were young, did you dislike Richard Nixon and Lyndon Johnson because of the Vietnam War? MJ (01:05:48): No. My parents were democratic, so I usually did the old parochial thing. And you followed the Democrats and not the Republicans. No. I saw Lyndon Johnson as actually someone who probably would not have done it, but actually actualized what Kennedy wanted to do. He was the one that finished off a lot of things. Did he do it for politics? I do not know. But he is the one that made the civil rights movement where it is. It was not JFK. JFK talked about it, but due to his assassination was not able to complete a lot of his tasks. And Lyndon Johnson did do that. SM (01:06:29): I guess, Gerald Ford. MJ (01:06:31): I saw Gerald Ford as probably the common man coming to office, which I thought was positive. SM (01:06:38): George Wallace. MJ (01:06:39): Could not stand him. Only because of how history painted him as just being so anti-African American. And yes, he did change and he did contribute and people view him different. Just a southerner who I would never trust. SM (01:06:59): How about Ralph Nader? MJ (01:07:02): Good person who challenges even those that are in power. Probably can only do that from a White man perspective. If he was a person of color I do not know if Ralph Nader would have lived to be as old as he is today. SM (01:07:16): He is still doing it too. MJ (01:07:17): Yeah. SM (01:07:18): Still lives in an apartment in Washington. He has only two shirts, washes them, and I cannot figure out how the guy lives. Getting into some of the African American leaders at the time, of course, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. MJ (01:07:31): Religious man who fell into becoming a leader of the Civil Rights movement. Really, when you read the history of Vernon Johns, the person that was at the church before Martin Luther King, he was really the one that was really outlandish. It was just that Martin Luther King was one that people thought that they could work with and he was more the middle of the road person and then moved out. And yes, did bring a lot of people into the movement, but Vernon Johns was actually the civil rights leader, but it was not palatable to people. SM (01:08:06): How about Malcolm X. MJ (01:08:08): I saw Malcolm X now as probably one of the greatest leaders of all time. It was unfortunate that that movement did not, or Jewish people had such a negative connotation of him. But I also look at his family system and what happened to him in terms of how he was raised and see him as... Really, if we had followed the philosophies of Dr. Martin Luther King, perhaps African Americans would not be as dependent on the government as it is today. SM (01:08:41): How about some of the Black Panthers of that period. Huey Long and... MJ (01:08:46): You mean Newton? SM (01:08:47): Not Huey Long, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver. MJ (01:08:53): These were, again, young people who fell into a movement. Actually, the Black Panthers had a nice thing going in terms of they were running schools for children. They were doing a lot of things for African Americans, and they were giving African Americans a pride within themselves and it was unfortunate that it all got swept away in a battle with police officers. I do not even think that they were Black Panthers, the way people look at them, they were just another extension of the Muslim movement to me, but they did not want to be Muslims who were going to fight for, by any means necessary, the rights of their people. SM (01:09:38): Timothy Leary. MJ (01:09:41): I really cannot speak of him. SM (01:09:44): He was a drug guru. A couple of names, Barry Goldwater. MJ (01:09:48): Well, that is the reason why I cannot speak of him because drugs, I just have such a thing. SM (01:09:52): Right. MJ (01:09:55): Barry Goldwater, establishment, keep the power even at the expense of others. And I get that mostly because of how he has settled or went after the lands that Native Americans have lived on. There is just a need to have the wealth. SM (01:10:11): Muhammad Ali. MJ (01:10:13): Oh, wow. A man that changed America, who made you laugh. When I think of Muhammad Ali, I think of his, not so much of his religious belief or his not going into war, but his ability to poke fun at himself and others and to gain acceptance to almost everything. Having his own beliefs and still to this day fighting Parkinson's disease. You see this man who is fighting it in such a way that no other person has ever done that. He takes every strength to walk, and yet he is walking. I see him as just a very strong and powerful leader. SM (01:10:57): I think he just turned 50, did not he? MJ (01:10:58): I do not know how old he is. SM (01:11:00): He might be 50. He has got be a little over 50 because... Well, anyways. And Spiro Agnew. MJ (01:11:05): Oh. Nolo contendere. That is what I think of him. When I explain nolo contendere, I do not know, but if I was, I did not know. And that is how I see him. I often equate the office of Vice President as a nolo contendere job because we really do not use that office the way I think it could be used. SM (01:11:34): Well, he certainly brought the campus up to a rage, sure had that ability. Gloria Steinem and some of the women of the Women's Movement. MJ (01:11:44): As a woman of color, I just have not really had that much time to be involved in the Women's Movement because you can only have one movement that you are involved in. But Gloria Steinem I think is one that has brought White women to caring about others, as well as looking at White women and how... as well as looking at white women and how oppressed they really were. So she has helped release those shackles. SM (01:12:09): It falls under the same category as Betty Friedan and Bella Abzug and even Shirley Chisholm. They were all of that era. MJ (01:12:17): And Barbara Jordan, all of them. Yeah. SM (01:12:18): Right. MJ (01:12:19): Yeah. They were all women who went up against the odds. And so for that, she has got an acolyte in my land. SM (01:12:28): Richard Daley, mayor of Chicago? MJ (01:12:31): I found he was very racist, I mean, beyond the political machine. I think covert racism is just as, and perhaps more mind-boggling than overt racism. And I feel as though that is how that political machine worked, and it caused a lot of people who... That was the beginning of Cabrini-Greens and all of these blasted welfare apartments that they made, which they called projects, and they put people in there and could care less about them. And that probably is one of the downfalls of our nation because if we had integrated and infused all of these different people, we probably would not have the biggest welfare problem we have today. But we just put all of them in there and let them live on top of each other, kill each other, do whatever as long as it did not bother anybody else. And so Chicago, it has been one of the main places for that. SM (01:13:24): How about Robert McNamara? MJ (01:13:27): Do not have much to say. SM (01:13:31): The musicians of the era, Jimi Hendrix, Janice Joplin, the Beatles, Elvis Presley, all those musicians, it is the Motown sound, all the music of that period. MJ (01:13:43): All right. Collectively, when I hear of Jimi Hendrix, I think of drugs. Or I think of Janice Joplin, I think of drugs. So I see it as a lot of drugs involved there. When I think of Motown, however, I think of it completely different. I think of it as exploitation. When I think of Billie Holiday, I think of her as involved in drugs only because she could sing at any place in Harlem and yet could not walk in the front door if she was not singing. So I see a lot of their downfall, the taking drugs, for just trying to deal with the entertainment field. I see it as exploitation because most of those Motown people who have survived, really acquired their wealth in the late (19)70s and (19)80s, really (19)80s and (19)90s. But when you look at way back then, all of them were being used by someone. And they were all involved in a meat-shop-type thing where the people who owned the laborers made the money. I think the music was great. I guess, of the drug person that I loved the music of the most, and think it fits the time, was Marvin Gaye. I think he had such a great political instinct on so many things. When you listen to his records, they are just... You can play him today, and he- SM (01:15:11): Yeah. What is Going On is a classic. MJ (01:15:13): And Mother... I mean, all of them. He really talked about this... He took the moment of the time, and I really think he was a genius, and really talked about them and the pain that lots of groups of people were coming from. SM (01:15:27): And he was criticized for doing that too. MJ (01:15:28): Yeah. Oh yeah. SM (01:15:29): "You are not going to sell any records doing that." MJ (01:15:31): Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, his What is... And I remember going to sleep on Marvin Gaye records, just listening to What is Going On. He dealt with the sexual revolution through Sexual Healing, and that is why we were all into sex. I mean, it is just all of those things. And he was probably the one... Elvis Presley, I could not stand, and a lot because I do not know if it was a rumor or whatever, but I remembered he always said, "Only colored folks could do for him was buy his records." And so there was a lot of division. SM (01:15:59): He said that? MJ (01:15:59): Yeah. SM (01:15:59): Oh wow. MJ (01:16:02): I do not know if it was true. I do not know if it was true. It was a rumor that spread throughout the African American community. SM (01:16:07): Okay, wow. MJ (01:16:07): I also know that he ripped off a lot of African Americans in terms of their music. I mean, and that had nothing to do with him. It had a lot to do with that white America would not listen to Black music. And so Elvis Presley would go and listen to that music and then make money off of it. SM (01:16:23): The last one I have here is Dwight Eisenhower because he was when a lot of boomers were a little younger. MJ (01:16:29): Dwight Eisenhower? Only because I know the Eisenhowers... I think he came out of the war, and we made him a hero. I do not know if he was primed to be president. And so I think he fell into this great political power based on the fact that he was a good general. And I do not think he made such a great president. SM (01:16:53): Woodward and Bernstein, the two reporters that... MJ (01:16:56): Courageous. I do not think they realized... Because I lived in Washington around that time. I do not think they realized what they stumbled on to. I always just look at them almost like the OJ Simpson trial. If that had happened now, would they maximize their potential? I would hope not. I hope they would still do the same thing, just write the story as it was told and not worry about who they could sell it to. SM (01:17:24): How did the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s change your life? MJ (01:17:27): The youth of (19)60s and early... SM (01:17:30): In attitudes that you have? MJ (01:17:31): First off, I grew up in Westchester, Kennett Square, Westchester. So I went to school in Catholic school and public school. And there were not that many African-Americans here. So I grew up in a white environment, probably knew a lot more about Italian and Irish culture than I did my own. My parents gave us, as a gift in our junior year, a trip. And because I was the youngest one, I decided to do the furthest thing. My sister went to Canada. My brother went to New Mexico, and I chose to travel Europe for the summer when I was 16. I turned 16 in Venice, which was really great because I got to come back on the ship that brought over all the student exchanges. And they picked me to be on a lot of panels because it was the ugly American at that time. And most people, most Europeans did not like Americans, which was new to me because here in America, most African Americans wanted to be a white American. Well, white Americans were not accepted, and I was placed in power on that ship because they wanted to know, Europeans wanted to know about my experience of being an African American here in this country, which now thinking back, might have probably been some of my first stance on race relations. And so I remember getting on that ship and being asked to participate in this panel about being an African American, being colored in the United States, and what did it have? And the reason why it had a lot of problems for me was because before I left to go on that trip, I wanted to go academic course. And at Bishop Shanahan High School, the ninth grade was a generic grade, and then you could go academic, commercial, or scientific. One was for the math and science, which was scientific. Academic was for those and wanted to go to college but not in the math and science area. And commercial was those who wanted to be a secretary. And the nun would not approve my schedule for academic. Now, I had been involved in cheerleading, and I just really had power at Bishop Shanahan High School. But when it came time to pick my courses, the nun stated, because my father owned a course, I mean a company, that the best course for me to track would be commercial because it is best for me to get a job and go work for my father in a secretarial slot. Now the nun did not know my father fired me when I was 12 years old because I did not come to work appropriately. So I had thought in my head I never would be able to work for him and never did. I was also a candy striper and had enjoyed seeing the social worker at Chester County Hospital and kind of said, "Oh, that is what I might want to do when I get big or grow old." So when I was denied the academic course, I was going to accept that because, after all, sister Mary Corona said that is what I was supposed to do. And I was a good Catholic. But my mother stated, "No," that I had to... If I wanted to go to college, then that is where I was going, and if she had to pull me out of that school, she would. Now you have to understand, that was devastating to me because I was a cheerleader, that ninth grade, that is the year you make whoever you are going to be. And I had made it to the cheerleading squad. And so I was now quote, "a popular person," unquote, and I did not want to have to start over into... And I had been involved in Catholic school since the fourth grade, fourth grade to the ninth grade. So most of my friends were Catholic. And my mother talked about sending me off to public school. Well, that summer, while I was away, my family moved from Kennett Square to Westchester, and my mother enrolled me into Henderson High School in the academic course. And I have to thank her to this day because I would have been a horrible secretary because I hated that. And I went on and did well, went on to college. But it was during that summer of my 16th birthday that my whole life kind of changed. And in the area of race relations was why it changed because the nun who was very racist, but I did not want to believe that because nuns cannot be racist, denied me access to education of which I wanted. SM (01:21:39): Oh wow. MJ (01:21:41): And to find out years later, the same thing happened to my husband where he was told the best he could do would be to work with his hands. And he just decided to go on to public school. And he was also raised a Catholic and challenged that system. I do not know if he was told that in public school or whether he was told that in Catholic school but went on to school. And I think that that is where the biggest mistrust comes for African Americans, is in that school system because we do not... And we still do not have enough people of color or enough white people who know about the colleges, of HBCs and know about how to nurture our kids and how to push our kids on. And so we think that, "I do not trust my child's guidance counselor because I know what was done to me. And far too often do I know what was done to other African Americans." SM (01:22:39): That is a very revealing story. And that will be in the book. MJ (01:22:45): Okay. SM (01:22:45): Because of what we have tried to find here, and this leads right into this very important question. If you were to pick the experience that had the greatest impact on your life, is that the one from that period? MJ (01:22:53): It was that, yeah. It was that, and it was being raised part of the Black middle class. Being part of the Black middle class, whites did not accept you, as well as African Americans did not accept you. I had a nice life. I did not really want for anything. I rode horses, had a nice life, and many times people would refer to us as silver spoon or all those kind of things. It was not until I came to terms with that my father did what he needed to do for his family, and he wanted to uplift his family. And so I started reading about the Black middle class and really started enjoying it. SM (01:23:36): If there was a particular event from that period in American history that had the greatest impact on you, what was that? MJ (01:23:42): Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King. SM (01:23:44): Okay. You remember where you were when that happened? MJ (01:23:47): Mm-hmm. When Dr. Martin Luther King was killed, I was in the first year of college, and actually there was two assassinations. The first one was assassination of JFK. And I was in Catholic school at that time, and we were in mass, and we were dismissed. And then when we got home, we found out that the president had been shot. And that was really, really scary. And then it was the assassination of Medgar Evers. SM (01:24:16): Oh yeah. MJ (01:24:16): And then it was the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King. And at that point, I realized that doing things through the establishment could not happen. And that is where my militant stance took itself because Martin Luther King had talked so much about nonviolence. And then you looked at what did that really bring you? And that is when you really... I think my own conversion experience from that time was moving to, I cannot stand whitey-type philosophy. And I was at Central State when that was occurring, which was a historically Black institution, and also National Guards people, the year before I was there, had marched on our campus and hosed everybody down. So there was this... And that is when I really kind of got involved, had the Afro, wore the dashiki. SM (01:25:06): Yeah, those were unbelievable times. MJ (01:25:09): But when you see three assassinations, and then right after that it was- SM (01:25:12): Bobby Kennedy- MJ (01:25:12): Bobby Kennedy. SM (01:25:13): ...was killed two months later. MJ (01:25:14): And so you realized how crazy America could be. Plus, you had television that would show you what was happening in the South, and you were watching people being hosed down. And so it was almost like today when people sit and watch, that is why I hate them, those crazy talk shows. You could turn on television and see things unfolding. I remember sitting home watching Jack Ruby shoot... Yeah. SM (01:25:41): So you are another one that saw it live, like I did. MJ (01:25:42): Yeah, yeah. I saw it live watching television because I was mesmerized by that whole thing. You just sit, and I mean, you watched television, and I watched the whole JFK funeral unfold. And when I happened to see that, you are just like, "Oh my God." It is almost as you watch that, you get immune to that. You are starting to look at everywhere you can go, you can be wiped out if you do not believe in certain things. SM (01:26:04): Yeah, [inaudible]. You were describing the event that had the greatest impact, those series of events. But if you were to try to, and it is tough to do this, but if you were to speak for the entire boomer generation from all ethnic backgrounds, what do you think the most important event has been in their lives, had the greatest impact on them? MJ (01:26:33): I think the assassinations and the war, and I say assassinations collectively. I just never thought that we would... I do not think people in America believe that they could see a president assassinated. You see Lincoln assassinated, and you realize, "Ah. Yeah, you can see all that," but never before. And I think the boomer generation watched those assassinations as it associated to politics, and I think that is where our mistrust of the system... Because we still do not really know what happened. And cover-ups started coming into play. SM (01:27:10): I am going to end with a question here. Actually, I am going to read this because I want to try to explain this. "The youth of the (19)60s and the (19)70s believed that they could have impact on society as a whole because of the influence on government policy or influence over the draft, issues like voting rights, civil rights legislation, abortion laws, workers' rights, civil rights, multiple movements representing both genders and all ethnic groups because there was a sense of empowerment. This whole issue, we have talked about it earlier, a feeling of empowerment. We can make a difference, not only individually but as a group." How do you feel the boomers feel today about this concept of empowerment? We know they have the power of the dollar because 60 million, they have always been appealed to in the markets for dollars through advertising. But what concerns me is, that you have raised it already earlier, about that they have gone on and raised families, getting a lot of dollars like any other previous generation. But it was always the hope that this generation was different, that this generation saw wrongs and wanted to write them. It is not afraid to speak up, even if it meant the possibility of losing one's job. When you see something wrong, you hope that what happened during that period in terms of what was happening in American civil rights, the war in Vietnam and government policy, how women were being treated, how other ethnic groups came to empowerment, the Native American movement, the Hispanic movement, and the gay and lesbian movement, they all came because they all realized... They used the civil rights as a model, that if nobody is going to change thing for us, unless we change it ourselves. Nothing comes easy. We have to fight to make something happen for the better. My question I am asking you to close out is, are the boomers still feeling that way? And if they are not, is not this a sign that this generation is no different than any generation that preceded them? And as some people used to say, "Well, as you get older, you will see that you are no different." I live my life as I lived it back then. And sometimes I feel isolated when I fight for certain things, not that I am better than anyone, not out of arrogance but that somehow that era caught me for my entire life. And I know there are people like yourself. I think you have fallen in that category, but I am worried that there are few and far between when there is so many issues. MJ (01:29:42): Well, yeah. First off, I do not think there are few and far between. I think that a lot of people are doing a lot of things. It is just that our media does not tell us about it all the time. I mean, media really controls your opinion about our nation. And for whatever reason, the media really does not like... When you take a person like Ennis Cosby, who was assassinated, but here is a young... His life was cut away from him early. But he was a young man that could have done anything he wanted to do. But through the values of his mother, Camille, and his father, Bill, who were all part of the boomer generation, was working with kids who had learning disabilities. He was taking all of his wealth that he did not gain, and he had no problems about that. I mean, I think it is okay. It is okay to be wealthy, and I do not want people to think that it is not okay to give your wealth. But he was using his wealth in a way that was going to really take care of others. You take this young man whose life was just cut away, whose father owned the major company up in New York. And when you go around this world, you hear a lot of stories like that. You hear about the post office man who goes to church every Sunday and reads to kids. You hear about people who rock crack-addicted kids. I think there is such a contribution of people giving back, but our media will never ever tell you those stories. And so I think we have been robbed in America, and we have blinders on, and we do not really realize how many people give back and to what degree people give back because everybody is not the person who needs to have their story told in the papers. And so I am a believer that we have contributed, and I am a believer that we have lived up to what we thought we were going to do. I believe all of us have helped bring somebody along that would not have been brought along had we not had this spirit of giving. SM (01:31:41): So you are not going to buy into that, my very first question from the beginning of the interview, when people will give a broad sweep, a pen stroke of an entire generation- MJ (01:31:49): No. SM (01:31:50): ...that the reason why we have problems in America, the divorce rate, the break-up of the American family, the drug situation is because of those boomers. MJ (01:31:58): No-no. I think the reason we have a high divorce rate is people are living longer. And divorced, we were only married before for about 20 years. You now see people celebrating 50, 60, 70 years of marriage. And that is kind of hard. I think the divorce rate is high because women are working. They are independent, and they no longer are dependent on men. But I have seen too many people in, like I say, the postal office-type jobs that help people, and they will never be written about. They will never receive an outcome like that or receive anything, but they help people. SM (01:32:30): I am going to end by saying thank you very much for taking time. An hour and a half out of your schedule is a lot, I know. MJ (01:32:35): Oh, thank you. SM (01:32:38): And is there any final thoughts that you would like to state to conclude? MJ (01:32:43): I would just like to say that these thoughts are my own. They come from an African American perspective of a female, and there is some predictions about the next generation. And I do not believe I am writing that generation off either. I think that they will look out at history 50 years from now, and we will see the strength within themselves because I think everybody contributes in our society, or it would be doomed to fail. SM (01:33:09): Very good. Thank you very much. MJ (01:33:09): Yes, thank you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mit Joyner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Joyner, Mildred (Mit) ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Social service; College teachers; Community activists; West Chester University of Pennsylvania; Joyner, Mildred (Mit)--Interviews Description An account of the resource Mildred (Mit) Joyner is a pioneer in teaching, research, writing, and community activism. Joyner has served leadership positions in social work professional organization, including the National Association of Social Workers (NASW), the Council on Social Work Education (CSWE) and the International Association of Schools of Social Work (IASSW). She is Emerita Director and Professor of Social Work at West Chester University in Pennsylvania. She received her Bachelor of Social Work from Central State University in Wilberforce and her Master of Social Work from Howard University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.178a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.178b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 93:12 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/da72ea754a74362c1913594f9f88b0cc.mp3 089c47ef19e54958e11e3bc3a885bcc0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Fawcett, Beccye Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview O'Neil, Dan Date of Interview 1978-01-05 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 33:55 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55904">Interview with Mrs. Beccye Fawcett</a> Subject LCSH Fawcett, Beccye -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; New Orleans (La.); New Orleans University; Key West (Fla.); Binghamton (N.Y.); African Americans -- New York (State) -- Binghamton -- Interviews; Underground Railroad; Race discrimination; Binghamton Public Library; Trinity M.E. Zion Church Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Mrs. Beccye Fawcett Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil Date of interview: 5 January 1978 Dan: OK, now, Mrs. Fawcett, why don't you relate your life experiences from the time that you were born up until the present date? Mrs. Fawcett: Ah, I was born in New Orleans, Louisiana, the daughter of the late Mr. and Mrs. Herbert Boyd Sr. I received my education in the public, early public education in the public schools of New Orleans. I graduated with a major in Education from New Orleans University. I married the late Reverend A. Luther Lightford, and he was assigned to the ministry of a church in Key West, Florida. We went there, he served as the spiritual leader of the church—I taught school for two and a half years. He was then transferred to the parish here in Binghamton, NY. His ministry here was rather short-lived in that he died after a year and a half of service. I was then ordained a local preacher to carry on the work which he had begun. I served the church from October 1933 to June 1934. In June of 1935, I took the Civil Service Examination for a worker in the Binghamton Public Library. I was the first Black person to take the examination and to be appointed by the City as a worker in one of the City departments. It wasn't easy even though, ah, I was here in Binghamton in the North. I ran into quite a bit of prejudice, quite a bit of discrimination, sometimes very disheartening. Ah, I remember so vividly, ah, the first check that I received after two weeks of work. I knew it wasn’t in keeping with the salary set by the Civil Service Commission, and when I received it I went into the secretary’s office and said to her rather meekly, because back in ’35, you had to speak meekly, believe it or not, even though you were in the North, and ah, I said, "I think something is wrong with my check," and she said, "Well I have nothing to do with it, you will have to speak with the librarian.”  So, believe it or not, I stood around trying to get to the librarian. When she came in—she was out to lunch, probably, but before I could get to her, the secretary had already gotten in to her, and she said to the secretary, “Well tell her she can take it or leave it—she doesn't have to stay." It was quite a blow to me, it was quite a shock. I went down to the Ladies’ Room—I shed bitter tears over such cruelty, over such a reaction, and I said, “Lord, should I stay, should I leave?" He answered me and said, "Stay, because if you leave, the feeling that exists will be there will never be another Black person employed in the Binghamton Public Library.” So, with all the courage that I had, I went to her, the secretary, and I said, "I am staying now," and I did, and in July of 1974, I finished 36 years of working as a servant of the public and community. I, ah, would like to make a quote because I think it is so apropos of the struggle that I had, and this quote is from a letter that I received from Mr. M. Charles Miller on July 2, 1974 when I was, ah, retiring, and he said, and I quote, "You overcame handicaps and finished your career with a significant position on the staff. In so doing, you not only served the library but you served the Black community as proof its members could and would take their places as leaders and doers in the fabric of our Social, Educational and Economic society," unquote. I have seen many, many changes in our community. I recall when the first Black girl tried to get into the school system. She went into the Superintendent’s office—spoke to his receptionist, who said to her, “The Superintendent is in a conference and you’d have to wait," and so she did. She waited all morning—she went out to lunch—she came back—she waited all afternoon—she left when the office closed. She went back the second day, same thing happened. She went back the third day and they decided this girl is determined, and so the Superintendent saw her. She was then employed and became the first Black woman to become a member of the Board of Education. She is still a member. That was back around in the early forties and she has served the school system well. But times have changed—today, I don't know the exact number of black teachers but it is quite a considerable number of teachers in the system. In 1954, when the New York State Commission came into being, of which I am a charter member, the pattern of thinking, ah, the community thinking was a bit changed, because up until that time, there was only one Black person employed at IBM, one at E.J. Shoe Factory, and this one was there because his great grandfather had worked for the Johnson family as a butler, so they kept him on as a token of appreciation of what his grandfather had done for the family. But all of that has changed now, ah, all of the industries and out of Broome County are employing large numbers of Black people. If you are capable, if you have the qualifications, if you have the training, I am very happy to say that today, 1978, Black people can find the job, the position wherever there is an opening that they meet the qualifications, and ah, I think of the housing situation—I remember very well that before the Urban League and the NAACP came into being into our community, I was one of the lone voices crying in the wilderness for people to open their hearts and, as Christians, to make way for Black people to live and to have decent places to live. Today, if a Black person has the money, he can buy and live anyplace in Broome County. And so, ah, through the 47 years I have seen so many changes, not only economic, educational, social, that you can barely think in terms that 40 years ago a Black person was as much discriminated against here in Binghamton as he was in the deep South. As a child growing up I frankly didn't, ah, encounter any discrimination. We lived in a mixed neighborhood. We were probably considered a middle-class family—my mother never worked outside of the home—she stayed in near her family. My father was the breadwinner of the family—he was an accomplished blacksmith and at that time horses and wagons and all were in style. So as a child, I grew up in a very well rounded Christian family. And so through my life, I have, after coming to Binghamton, experienced more discrimination and more segregation than I did as a child in New Orleans. Dan: Is that right? Now you speak of more segregation—in what respect? Down south were you not restricted to where you could ride on the bus, and etc.? Mrs. Fawcett: Ah yes. Dan: You know, in the public restrooms. Mrs. Fawcett: Ah yes. Dan: Which you didn’t find up here. Mrs. Fawcett: Well no, we didn't find it here to a degree—it was more subtle. For instance, ah, you could get on the bus here in Binghamton and get your seat and you could ride all over the city, and no one, not a white person, would come and take the seat next to you, so you rode there alone, and, ah, Black people have a certain sense that they know when someone is deliberately discriminating against them. And, ah, so in the South there were signs saying “White People,” “Negroes Only,” “White People Only.” You saw those signs so you knew this is where you go, but here there were no signs, but you knew that they didn't want you. Dan: The inference was there. Mrs. Fawcett: That’s right, that’s right, and ah, even in restaurants, you probably could go in but if you didn't check, ah, make a very close check on the bill when it was handed to you, ah, you .would find that it had been upped—increased so that, ah, you realized, “I'm not going there, because on their bill of fare it was so much, but when I get my check, it’s a different price.” Those subtle ways of saying. Dan: At the time that you first got your paycheck, you said there was discrimination as far as the amount? Mrs. Fawcett: That’s right. Dan: Now wasn’t there a Labor Board or anybody that you could go to to complain rather than to your immediate supervisor? Mrs. Fawcett: Ah no, there was no Labor Board, and ah, I might clarify that, ah, in those years, the City fathers would make out a large check covering all of the expenses for the year of the Libraries—the book sales, the equipment and the supplies, the salaries, and then the librarian and the Board could sit down and say who’s going to get what and how much, and that is what happened in my case. And it wasn't ’til a year later, when I felt that I was on a little more solid ground, that I went in and spoke to the librarian and I told her that I had worked a whole year without receiving the salary that the Civil Service job called for, and she said "I don't think that was right," and I said, “Well, you have your canceled checks, though,” and I said, “I am going to go to the Civil Service Commission and find out why I am not receiving what I am supposed to get,” and she became very much upset and she said, ''Oh please don't do that, don't do that, ah, we will see that this is corrected.” Well then the following year, ’36 or ’37, I was then, my salary was then put on the basis for which the job called for according to the Civil Service. Dan: Were you ever paid retroactive to this? Mrs. Fawcett: I never was. Dan: Never paid retroactively? Mrs. Fawcett: There was a time when I thought, well, maybe I should, and then I said, No, ah, it would just merely create a feeling and a lot of unfavorable publicity, ah, for the library, for the librarian and probably for me. Dan: Now you, ah, when you retired, what position did you hold as far as the library? Mrs. Fawcett: I, ah, was principal clerk and head of the overdue department with a full-time assistant and two part-time assistants. Dan: This is the Binghamton Public Library? Mrs. Fawcett: This is in the Binghamton Public Library. Dan: Now going back to when you first came here, Mrs. Fawcett, you said your husband was—took a parish here in the city? Mrs. Fawcett: Yes. Dan: But he only lived for a year and a half. Mrs. Fawcett: A year and a half. Dan: What church was he— Mrs. Fawcett: That was the Trinity M.E. Zion Church. At that time it was located on Sherman Place over in the 7th Ward, it has since moved in to the 1st Ward at Oak and Lydia. Dan: And he only lived a year and a half. Mrs. Fawcett: A year and a half, and ah, he had begun such a fine work in the community until he must have felt I was capable of carrying on his work until the end of his conference year, which was in June and, ah, which I did. Of course I had studied for the ministry. Dan: You were ordained to the ministry yourself? Mrs. Fawcett: I was ordained as a minister to carry on, and when we went to conference, the Bishop of the conference decided that there were other things that I could do and that he would send a man here. In the meantime I had taken the examination, ah, for the, this job in the Library, and so in leaving the church I went into this program. But my experience has been, and it probably still exists today, a Black person going into any new job or being the first one in that job, still has butterflies—still seems to be concerned as to whether he will be received appreciatively. Dan: Well do you think it is because of the color of their skin or their education? Mrs. Fawcett: It is definitely because he is a Black person. Dan: You have had, ah, a very sound background, educational background—you’re going to school and everything—more so than the average, I think today you will agree, no matter where you go, you could go right in and get a job. Mrs. Fawcett: Oh yeah. Dan: With your educational background. Mrs. Fawcett: Yes. Dan: Whereas, ah, today of course things have changed. I mean that, ah, you are not required to have as much educational background. At the same time whereas the more you have the more opportunities prevail—the chances of getting a position, but ah, you certainly had a very—you were well educated before you came north. Now did you ever have any children, Mrs. Fawcett? Mrs. Fawcett: No, no children. Dan: No children—that’s too bad. Of course you were only married—how long were you married? Mrs. Fawcett: Well I remarried, now. Dan: You're remarried? Mrs. Fawcett: Yes, we were married, ah, a year and a half, and we were in Key West, Florida, two years and a half. We were married around 4-5 years when he passed, and then I remained a widow until 1941, when I married my beloved husband Claude, and he was in the Service at that time, and ah, speaking of that, it reminds me of the attitude of people right here in Binghamton in 1941, when it was, ah, publicized in the, ah, newspapers that a troop of Black soldiers would be stationed at the Armory here, ah, on Washington Street, and the reverberations, the newspapers and the statements of the people and, ah, they just did not want a Black troop here, that it was going to destroy the community. Now these men were serving their country—they were in the Army to serve their country but there was quite, ah, quite, ah, disgusting to say the least of feelings among the white community, but they came, they proved themselves. Dan: Well I know when I was inducted—ah, not when I was inducted, but when I took my basic training—I think Dr. Dorsay was in at the same time, although I am not personally acquainted with the Doctor, but I knew that he was at the same base as I was—it was at Camp Lee, Virginia. Mrs. Fawcett, are you acquainted at all with, ah, Underground Railroad stations? Mrs. Fawcett: Ah, to a degree I am. Dan: I mean, to your knowledge or hearsay. Mrs. Fawcett: Ah yes, because you see there is nothing in the history. Now when I did this documentary on Deep Are the Roots, I tried to trace many of the Underground stations in this area and, ah, I know that, ah, out in the town of Maine there was one and at the Gonzales home, and after doing much research through the library, I found this home. I contacted the Gonzales, and when WBNG did the shooting of this documentary, ah, most of it was done at her home, and ah, you see so many of, and, and this is going to be interesting because, ah, in the school system, so many of those of the young people do not realize that the Underground Railroad was not a railroad such as we know it. Dan: Not per se. (chuckle). Mrs. Fawcett: That’s right, but it was a sort of follow the drinking holes, ah, when these slaves would escape and, ah, through some way, they travel mostly by night and most of them by streams, and they would always be able to make some contact with some white family who would be on the lookout. Dan: They were more or less places of refuge. Mrs. Fawcett: Places of refuge. Now, ah, Montrose has a large home that was one of the Underground sites and, ah— Dan: Do you know of any in Binghamton? Mrs. Fawcett: Ah, I understand that where the old Federal building is, there used to be a building there, a home there on that site that was one time, but this I have never been able to, ah, really make something that would be a fact. Dan: Of course that was quite a few years ago. Mrs. Fawcett: But, ah, I do know that this home in Maine, and from Maine into Lisle, there was one, and Owego there was another, and then into Ithaca, Elmira, and then we went on north into Canada, and you know, it is rather interesting, ah, how the terminology “Underground Railroad” came about. Ah, according to history, ah, in Virginia there was this large slave owner, and this particular day one of these men, a slave, jumped into the river to lead to the other side, and ah, he immediately called the other slaves and some of his help and they got into a boat, and by the time they got to the other side of the river, they searched the ground all around and they couldn’t find this slave, and when he went back, ah, to his plantation, when they said "Did you get him?" and he said, “No, he must have gone underground.” Dan: That’s how the term originated, huh? Mrs. Fawcett: That’s how the term originated. Dan: Now is Mr. Fawcett still living? Mrs. Fawcett: Oh yeah, ah, it’s funny you don't know him, because he was in the catering business here in Binghamton for over 25 years, matter of fact he still does some catering. Dan: Is that right? Mrs. Fawcett: Ah, but he is retired from this, ah, to a large degree, but he did catering for some of the finest families, weddings and what have you in this community, Montrose, Ithaca and all around. He is now working for the State at the new State Building. He is the night supervisor of the housekeeping department. He's been there since the building opened. Dan: So most of your time here in Binghamton was spent with the Library. Are you acquainted with Mr. Newcomb, who is a retired librarian from the University? Mrs. Fawcett: Yes. Dan: You do know him? Mrs. Fawcett: Yes. Dan: Well that’s fine, he's on vacation right now. Mrs. Fawcett: Oh he is. Dan: And I imagine he will be interested in this interview when he returns. Mrs. Fawcett: Yes. Dan: He is helping us out with this program. Mrs. Fawcett: Oh, marvelous. Dan: Yeah, so is there anything else you would like to add, Mrs Fawcett? You're affiliated with what church now? Mrs. Fawcett: Trinity M.E. Zion Church. Dan: The same church. Mrs. Fawcett: And, ah, I am a member of the Urban League and NAACP. I am the founder, which I am very proud of, of the Semper Fidelis Women’s Club. And it is the affiliate of the Empire State Federation of Colored and we do a very fine job, communitywise, on all levels of community life. I have received all types of plaques. Last year I was the first Black woman to be honored by the Broome County Statehood of Women, which I am quite proud to receive for my work in the community. Dan: Would you care to tell me how old you are, Mrs. Fawcett? Mrs. Fawcett: I am 74. Dan: 74—that’s wonderful. You've been retired just about two or three years? Mrs. Fawcett: Yes, three years. Dan: Three years. Mrs. Fawcett: I retired in 1974. Dan: I see—well that’s fine. Mrs. Fawcett: I thank the Lord I am still active and capable of carrying on. Dan: Well I certainly appreciate your calling us and consenting to this interview, and I've enjoyed it very much. Mrs. Fawcett: Well I've enjoyed doing it. I like to talk of—it’s rather encouraging to see the change that has taken place in our community. Dan: As long as it is a change for the better. Mrs. Fawcett: It is, it definitely is a change for the better. Dan: That’s good. Mrs. Fawcett: Because now people can go about living their lives. Black people can, ah, with a feeling of security with the, what shall I say, with a feeling you are definitely a part of the community structure, and that you're not just something standing on the sidelines waiting to be given a handout, and that is very reassuring to the Black people of the community. Dan: Well that’s wonderful. Mrs. Fawcett: And I might add this, that unlike, ah, most people think, white people in the community think that there is a dense concentration of Black people in the community—there isn't. Ah, the, ah, like to refer to the Susquehanna area and all, but you find as many white people in that area— Dan: Oh yes, definitely. Mrs. Fawcett: —as Black people. Even before they began to move them out, and now Black people are scattered all throughout Broome County, Binghamton, Endicott, Endwell, Vestal. Dan: I remember my grandparents—their first home was down on Tudor Street. Mrs. Fawcett: Yes, yes. Dan: In fact years ago, it was Irish and just as many Jews down there. Mrs. Fawcett: Yes, because the Rosefakys were there. Dan: Sure, a lot of them originated down there. Mrs. Fawcett: And, ah, the Koffmans moved now, with the Loan Company I believe. Dan: Well I thank you very much, Mrs. Fawcett. Anything you'd like to add before I turn this off? Mrs. Fawcett: No, I think that is about it. Dan: Okay. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mrs. Beccye Fawcett Subject The topic of the resource Fawcett, Beccye -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; New Orleans (La.); New Orleans University; Key West (Fla.); Binghamton (N.Y.); African Americans -- New York (State) -- Binghamton -- Interviews; Underground Railroad; Race discrimination; Binghamton Public Library; Trinity M.E. Zion Church Description An account of the resource Mrs. Fawcett details her life from her upbringing in New Orleans, LA, through her education at the public high school, then getting her degree in education from New Orleans University, to her relocations with her husband, who was a Reverend that worked in New Orleans, then Key West, Fla. and finally in Binghamton, NY, where he passed away. She describes her work for the Trinity M.E.Church and her application to work at the Binghamton Public Library, as well as being the first Black woman to be appointed in one of the city departments. She discusses the discrimination she faced in the workplace and how she stood her ground for equal treatment, as well as the changes in treatment of Black people in the community during her years in Binghamton. She discusses her interest and knowledge of the Underground Railroad. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 20 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fawcett, Beccye ; O'Neil, Dan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-01-05 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 33:55 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/500ade25491ee66ea64f6a2c83693d96.pdf 06c621f0e5bd0e3b8eb4370e38d95515 PDF Text Text 1\ctio:· 1 for :·11,:cr Pcr:::o:1s, I.1c. :,roo:!2 Cou11tY l:ourt '.'.ou::;...:, :t-,. 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TnanJ.: you ap,ain for :;our 1.1illin�:1.css to participate in this rro�ra�.1. ;'c �·:. J :1'"ro2u:· .Juthori:::e i�ction for Older Persons to place t:1e recording of r:iy cunv�rsatiou Ll.:ide unJer the Oral i:istory Procrarn nt local libr.:iries, so that i.t ::10.:' i e listcneG to (or t'.1e transcript read) by persons uis"iin� to !:now ·.,urc o.�,out t.1e i1istory of our area. (Date) tl�� /\_,,; vv "� c-·t 'V�C----0 �� , -:,, ·: ..) �ACTION FOR OLDER PERSONS BROOME COUNTY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT ABSTRACT Mrs Clara Bell was born in Hawleyton, N. Y. near the Pennsylvania line on a farm in 1888. She was raised in a poor but kind home and mentions the hardships of having parents with failing health. She accepted the Lord at an early age and the church played an important role in her life. Mrs. Bell went through the 10th grade and later attended a business college. pastor of a church. She has a son who is a She had a great desire to become a writer and has and still writes poetry. Mrs. Bell is a resident of the Good Shepphard - Fairview Home where she is happy and secure. �ACTION for Older Persons, Inc. Independent, Membership-based, Non-profit Broome County Court House, Room 307 Court House Square, Binghamton, New York 13901 Telephone (607) 722-1251 BROO:ME COUNTY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Interview Transcription Interviewer: Susan Dobandi Address: Date: 5/178 Tape No: 1 295 Front St. Binghamton, N. Y. Person Interviewed: Mrs. Clara Bell Address: Good Sheppard Fairview Home 80 Fairview Ave, Binghamton, N. Y. Date of Birth or approximate age: 90 Mrs. Bell: Could you tell us a where you were born, something about your parents and any work experiences that you've had in the community and any of your recollections of your Childhood? I was born in Hawleyton just this side of the Pennsylvania line the seventh child in the family born to a mother that was really an invalid that shouldn't have born a child at that time and we lived on a farm. I was born in 88 - 1888 and a we were what would be considered poor - OFFICERS Board Members R,·, ,, h \,Hgclft'l Hourt·n 1\\r, llt•\ l'I I\ /\ l\f(l\\ 11 /\ C1·org1• Cub., PrP\/dcnt ,\\r, I l11,1lwth �lut,,,•r V1cP-l'r<•'1rlpn/ 1\\r l<>s1,il1 I Nt'\\!Ornb V1cc-/'reS1<ic111 1\\r, I lor .. 111 ,. ( r.ilt �C'CrC'/ar\ ,\\1 1)011.ild I 1 r(' i hurcr llrm\11 I{,·, w I ( ,1111plwll ,\\r ll1•11r\ I C,1110".1\ ,\\r ll1•rn.ird ( .old" 111 ,\\r R,1lph I l,111 1\\r, lrt•nt• 11.irtung ,\\r, I ''" I !,•,1th R,•, I r,·dt•rn, I lop,,· ,\\r V\ ill.ird I ,1ud .. rh,1! h I{,,, Member. Agency United way i\\r 1\\r Mr RP, 1\\r 1\\r, 1\\r 1\h ,\\r, 1\\r J,11111•, C I 1•1·111•1. J1 VVill1,t111 I 1•1gl11011 I ho111c1.., I I oughlm v\ ,ll1.u11 ,\\ /\It I ,•,111 C h,,rl,•, I i\\urn I ho1n,1, /\\ P,irkhur,t I c1v1o1 rt•ric (') l'oltt.•r. Ir lo,Pph W l'ugl,,, 1\L1uritt' ()u\1111 C,111 RPPdPr C1.. 1111 /\ <;l,1t1•r \r l',HJI I oll,·,011 1\\r, 1\\.iry lo /urnhuhl Execulive Direclor llt-11'011 ll I "h<•r Assistant Director lanl(•, ( l\n•-,n <1h c l11 �Mrs. Clara Bell Page 2 people we really did have hand-me-downs that would help us. One year I had to be kept from school because there wasn't a proper coat - warm coat for me to wear, and but it was a kind home but a very poor home and I think my father and mother tried always to cover up the poorness of it and dwell on the richness of it and there was a heap of richness there when you look over other homes today - and I was a unwanted child and a homely little runt of a child and born to people that had some nice looking children but very early in life I began to feel the conscious�� of God and I hope nobody misunderstands that it's nothing freakish at all but it was the sense of God and the dependence upon him and there was really nothing in the home life that would have made me that way but I was very conscious of it. I still remember the lay of the land and the spring in the pasture lot and to put things every contour of that place. It seemed as though God was in it with me and I think that �e must have known that I needed him so much because I was naturally a sour disposition child and my mother just could not - she could not CJ-- ('(\Q ) I (: (' ..:i, feel towards me and that's w " ·ve and so - love and so that has made me think that perhaps that had something to do with the queer child that I was and a when I - I went to Sunday school with neighbors and wanted to join the church and I told my parents that I - that I wanted to join the church well they told me that there would be a time when I was old enough but the time wasn't yet for me to join so that was alright with me - and I can remember reading the Bib le and the scorn of my eighteen year old brother because I was reading a Bible because of course he had no use for such a thing by the way I did have five sisters \Jr\ L)� and-a one very dear to me like a mother and -a-it was so beautiful that 1 at the time that I joined the church which doesn't mean becoming a �Mrs. Clara Bell Page 3 a Christian at all but it does to many peoples mind but not to mine. My mother had the feeling well if one of her children joined the church and I will say if one of my children accepted the Lord - mother felt that she should and I as a child was so ashamed that I didn't love her and I didn't love her and I had no reason to feel that she loved me but my mother joined the church but my mother became a Christian and if nobody else believes in Christianity I would have to for the change that was in my mother and she and I over and over again have thanked the Lord together that he spared her that time and we had that mother daughter experience. It was beautiful for quite a few years and she mean't so much to me. My people because of father's failing health and mother's of course u� had been we moved to Binghamton when I was sixteen years old and a my a father was a janitor in the school here not able to do that work at all and I fought desperately to get work of some kind. I may have had a foolish pride to be ashamed of but I - I still know the roots of it. I couldn't bring myself to go into one of the shops. It didn't seem as though it belonged some way to me and so there was a twitter twitter well my sister told me that her husband would lend me the money if I wanted it to go through business college so I did and very foolishly which is up to my way of thinking. When the time was up there was no offer made to me to get a job so I just simply left without interviewing the man who was head of the thing at all. Well I - one of the women who had gone through girls with the school �Mrs. Clara Bell Page 4 with me she said if I find a job at all that you can do why she said I will let you know - she did - she found a job in the a - a bookkeeping branch of the shoe factory here and she let me know and at the same time she did my mother said found out that my sister in Deposit her husband was bookkeeper at the Outing Publishing Co. she was ill and my mother said that was my duty to go there and so I went and a then three months Outing moved to New York and a many people went with it but I - I came home vY\ then and a-was engaged to be married at that time and so by - I took in washings to earn the money for I couldn't get a job and my mother was too ill to leave and I was married in April and a in three years and about a half the Lord blessed our home with a little girl who was so very dear and precious to us and we had her for forty-two years but the 'r Lord has taken her home and� she was the wife of a pastor who established a camp in Michigan and then a 10 years afterwards I always said that I'd like to have six little girls but I wouldn't want any boys at all but the Lord sent me a little boy and oh I never knew the treasure that had been witheld from me and I can say it today he will be 58 tomorrow. He has been one of the greatest blessings of my life. He is pastor of a church in Cincinnatus and he has I think that we are compatable let me say. Life looks funny to us at times riduculously so and yet we love the Lord so dearly. ;q Well in my life after my husband died and -a 12 years ago I had - we had a home in Port Dickinson and oh we had a lovely, lovely lot - extra lot and lovely flowers and shrubs I had and I worked until I was too weary to enjoy it and I so I decided to come here to the Fairview Home and one of the greatest blessings that I have found since being here and I have �Mrs. Clara Bell Page 5 found a heap of them is - I am not afraid anymore. there ever was one. I was born a coward if There were breakings in all around me when I was home and there was nothing that gave me that sense of security even though we put on these aluminum screens I thought nobody could get in - well people did get in so I came to Fairview. There is some people that would say they were false in Fairview and a I don't have to acknowledge it so I'm not going too. have found kindness. I have found grea.t-.blessing in this home. I I have broken my hip, fractured my hip and I have broken my wrist and the joint in it and I had to be in the infirmary here which many people say they would rather die than go into the infirmary to the - in the infirmary I found more grand-daughters and they were just so good to me and yet today when I see them there is just that warm�th feeling about it and while I can say that I can see improvements I couldn't be critical because I have been treated so kindly and the Lord is with me and I feel that I am one of the most fortunate people in the world and I praise the Lord for it because he has gone with me through some pretty deep troubled waters but he has always been there and led me out and on and it's good - it's good. the Lord leaving me here. I can't see the advisability of I thought when I came here I would be able to go to the infirmary and help and bless some lives there maybe and I now I don't do any of those things I go with a walker oh once in a while I get down there I love the folks there but I don't see where there is one particle of use of me taking up the place on the earth that I do. I have thought now it's so near the time I would like to wait till I was ninety but after that I don't dare to tell the Lord that I think so I think it's the time for me to be taken because I am a useless person really as far as being a blessing to anybody else oh I wanted to do such things. I wanted to go through college. �1 Mrs. Clara Bell Page 6 I wanted to write and I wanted you see the Lord couldn't trust me with that I'd probably would have gotten very cockey and puffed up and all of that - he had to keep me down - but oh he has been down with me and he has been up with me. The Lord is to be praised. ( Tell us about the poetry that you write. ) About - beg you pardon. ( The poetry) Oh - well that was a was a happy outlet even in my childhood and a - of writing poetry and then in Binghamton I was - oh I had a poem published by Lucia Trent and in her western anthology. dont't know how I ever got the idea of sending there. I There must have been something in my head or something that made me send it and that was accepted which was a real puff to my vanity and there was a write-up in our paper and a picture of me and another woman who had two anthology poems well that had brought me to the notice of our local poetry class that Miss Herrick a retired English teacher at high school was established that and so I went to that and of course I learned a great deal and awaited to write more properly perhaps but it was - it was a great "' 11\ 1i cU pleasure as long as it I think it just disbanded if I rcember or for some reason I had to give it up but it has been a pleasure and a few well the course and the class she sent out our work good deal to colleges in their books or whatever they call them and we had quite a few published in them and then I had I was very fond of Woody Magazine because both of my children went through school and I had two poems there and - and some other places some other mostly Christian magazines they had been but I think that my writing has tended to be along the line of nature very much - very much and it hasn't been anything sumptuous but I shall always feel that if it had been the Lord's will for me �Mrs. Clara Bell Page 7 to have had an education that I could have written for I had the feeling ,n I have the en� and he's blessed me perhaps with an appreciation that they don't all people feel. That's just - just splend�d to see who has - has a written and who has arrived and can do it and so I have been wonderfully blessed by them. ( Could we go back to when you were a 1.itt 1e gir � and see the ch anges in . 1 J"\ . \ the community a as far as transportation the way you were brought up?) We lived 2 miles from the school and we lived up a dirt road and a that was real steep over half of the way there and so that we - when wintertime often times it would be with great difficulty that we would get to school and once in a while we would have a hired man that would come for us �h when it was impossible to get home and -a we - we learned the reading, writing and arithrnatic and I had dear teachers that helped me a in my desire for more. (It was probably a one room schoolhouse wasn't it?) Yes, uh hu and a so that one teacher very kindly offered to stay on in the school and teach 10th grade which she didn't have to do and she did and I was I had my certificate for having passed that and then that is the formal educat ion that this poor soul has had but in heaven I'm going to be one of the smartest women there and we did have a - a yoke of oxen in my childhood and a they were larger than any of the others that I saw at the time - � �� very large red steers I called them red and a but they my a they seemed to adore my father and I think he did them and they'd be so obedient to him but he would leave me to - to ride them - to sit by them while he went for an errand or to get a drink and I would be so frightened I can �Mrs. Clara Bell Page 8 fee1 it yet those great oxen would no more of paid attention to that peeping weening voice and anything under the sun and most of our neighbors 1L I think had more of the worlds goods than we did but I do think much of our I can't say poverty because we were not poverty people at all because there was too much within and people coming and living in our home and coming - coming to us so much but - - - - - there was peace and goodness and joy in our home and I lost my train of thought that I was on and that's what 90 years old does to you. ( Well, you're doing very well. ) vh ,J And� so that a we had - we had such a desire for a what they call a II\ platform wagon that was a good size larger than a carriage and-a but we never had the money to get it so if we had to be a need for something like that we had to use a lumber wagon and a I tnow that a ride in that lumber wagon and look down on those horses scar�ed the liver right out of me as a kid. It seemed as thdgh I was up as high as heaven and they were elephants or something and a that was the way we were then and finally my people were able to get a horse one horse and in time my brother came back home and they got two more horses, and things moved more swiftly but not better - not better at all I think it was a leadCJ re of r 1 .,, ' 1 -1 . '' ing of what was coming to town and my brother-inlaws got a gramaphone /\ gramaphone I think it was called. Oh we just swarmed that 11ouse every night we'd go and we were so thrilled with that it was so wonderful and then another brother became affluent enough to a buy a Ford car and that was just - just immense to us. In - I was - I had been a member of Calvary Church for nearly 60 years and through those years from the �o time I was 16 until oh maybe - maybe I better say 10 years or-m0-Fe I �Mrs Clara Bell Page 9 don't think it was that long I taught Sunday school and from every grade I even caught - taught a college choir - class ignorant as I onward. am and enjoyed them and a there was so many things in the church you can do and love to do and people to love and I - that was a dear church and is a dear church but there in difference in the church I was in things progress. I learn everything progresses but old women 90 years old they don't progress but it's good - it's good. regret. I have no feeling of I had such a desire to be good looking and I was such a homely child and always had been and I had some beautiful sisters b�t it just didn't happen to mother the seventh child they tell about as favorite but this one wasn't much in health and to think - to think I had so much to thwart my growing up and my strength and I'm the only one of those other children who are living and the husbands and wives are gone too. Even now the nieces and nephews are going some an still the Lord is having me stay on here. must be. I would never quite dare to ask him Lord please take me out of my body and take me home. to do. It's his will and his will is good I just don't quite think it's the thing He has got the program he knows and it's very wise that he doesn't let us know. ( No, it would be very difficult to get through from one day to the next if we knew what was ahead of us. ) It surely would - it surely would I do pray the Lord if it's his will that I shall never have any more broken bones. They are difficult in a way but you know the way the Lord went with me through those hard yeilds is just unbelieve able and even now this sounds boastful too dear but this is the Lord iht, I'm boasting in the when I was in this insumary- infirmary the - the nurses did praise the progress that I made they thought it was �l. .. Mrs. Clara Bell Page 10 remarkable and a once in a while a dear one just doesn't try and that is too bad. - - - - ( Well thank you very much Mrs. Bell for taking the time to talk with us is there anything more that you would like to add to this interview? ) No, I don't think so only if I may add this I wish that everyone who might ever hear this would love the lord and depend on him as much as he's caused me to depend on him. ( Thank you. ) � https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/50a3a941c5076b4b54f360d0cd5e4de4.mp3 89d809b026880d5cddb53ce3ae68a231 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9884896bf5ee8132e0143ba7f0948428.mp3 89d809b026880d5cddb53ce3ae68a231 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bell, Clara Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dobandi, Susan Date of Interview 1978-05-01 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 32:32 minutes Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Subject LCSH Bell, Clara -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Authors -- Interviews; Hawleyton (N.Y.); Cavalry Church; Poetry Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55362">Interview with Mrs. Clara Bell</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Mrs. Clara Bell Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi Date of interview: 1 May 1978 Susan: Mrs. Bell, could you tell us, ah, where you were born, something about your parents, and any work experiences that you've had in the community, and any of your recollections of your childhood? Mrs. Bell: I was born in Hawleyton, just this side of the Pennsylvania line, the seventh child in the family, born to a mother that was really an invalid that shouldn't have borne a child at that time, and we lived on a farm. I was born in ’88—1888, and ah, we were what would be considered poor—people, we really did have hand-me-downs that would help us. One year I had to be kept from school because there wasn't a proper coat, warm coat, for me to wear, and but, it was a kind home but a very poor home, and I think my father and mother tried always to cover up the poorness of it and dwell on the richness of it, and there was a heap of richness there, when you look over other homes today. And I was a unwanted child and a homely little runt of a child and born to people that had some nice-looking children, but very early in life I began to feel the consciousness of God, and I hope nobody misunderstands that, it's nothing freakish at all, but it was the sense of God and the dependence upon Him, and there was really nothing in the home life that would have made me that way, but I was very conscious of it. I still remember the lay of the land and the spring in the pasture lot and to put things, every contour of that place. It seemed as though God was in it with me, and I think that He must have known that I needed Him so much, because I was naturally a sour disposition child and my mother just could not—she could not feel towards me, and that's a mother’s life, and so—love, and so that has made me think that perhaps that had something to do with the queer child that I was, and ah, when I—I went to Sunday school with neighbors and wanted to join the church, and I told my parents that I—that I wanted to join the church, well, they told me that there would be a time when I was old enough but the time wasn't yet for me to join, so that was all right with me—and I can remember reading the Bible and the scorn of my eighteen-year-old brother because I was reading a Bible, because of course he had no use for such a thing. By the way, I did have five sisters and, uh, one very dear to me like a mother and, uh, it was so beautiful that at the time that I joined the church, which doesn't mean becoming a, a Christian at all, but it does to many people’s mind, but not to mine. My mother had the feeling, well, if one of her children joined the church, and I will say if one of my children accepted the Lord—Mother felt that she should, and I as a child was so ashamed that I didn't love her, and I didn't love her and I had no reason to feel that she loved me, but my mother joined the church, but my mother became a Christian, and if nobody else believes in Christianity I would have to for the change that was in my mother, and she and I, over and over again, have thanked the Lord together that he spared her that time and we had that mother-daughter experience. It was beautiful for quite a few years and she meant so much to me. My people—because of father's failing health, and mother's, of course—had been, we moved to Binghamton when I was sixteen years old and, ah, my, ah, father was a janitor in the school here, not able to do that work at all, and I fought desperately to get work of some kind. I may have had a foolish pride to be ashamed of, but I—I still know the roots of it. I couldn't bring myself to go into one of the shops. It didn't seem as though it belonged some way to me, and so there was a twitter-twitter—well, my sister told me that her husband would lend me the money, if I wanted it, to go through business college, so I did, and very foolishly, which is up to my way of thinking. When the time was up there was no offer made to me to get a job, so I just simply left without interviewing the man who was head of the thing at all. Well I—one of the women who had gone through girls with the school with me, she said, “If I find a job at all that you can do,” why, she said, “I will let you know.” She did—she found a job in the, ah—ah, bookkeeping branch of the shoe factory here and she let me know, and at the same time she did, my mother said, found out that my sister in Deposit—her husband was bookkeeper at the Outing Publishing Company—she was ill, and my mother said that was my duty to go there and so I went and, ah, then in three months Outing moved to New York and, ah, many people went with it, but I—I came home then and, ah—was engaged to be married at that time, and so by—I took in washings to earn the money for I couldn't get a job and my mother was too ill to leave, and I was married in April and, ah, in three years and about a half, the Lord blessed our home with a little girl who was so very dear and precious to us, and we had her for forty-two years but the Lord has taken her home, and she was the wife of a pastor who established a camp in Michigan, and then, ah, ten years afterwards, I always said that I'd like to have six little girls but I wouldn't want any boys at all, but the Lord sent me a little boy, and oh, I never knew the treasure that had been withheld from me, and I can say it today, he will be fifty-eight tomorrow. He has been one of the greatest blessings of my life. He is pastor of a church in Cincinnatus and he has—I think that we are compatible, let me say. Life looks funny to us, at times ridiculously so, and yet we love the Lord so dearly. Well in my life, after my husband died and, ah, twelve years ago I had—we had a home in Port Dickinson, and oh, we had a lovely, lovely lot—extra lot, and lovely flowers and shrubs, I had, and I worked until I was too weary to enjoy it and I so I decided to come here to the Fairview Home, and one of the greatest blessings that I have found since being here, and I have found a heap of them, is: I am not afraid anymore. I was born a coward if there ever was one. There were breakings-in all around me when I was home and there was nothing that gave me that sense of security, even though we put on these aluminum screens, I thought nobody could get in—well, people did get in, so I came to Fairview. There is some people that would say they were false in Fairview and, ah, I don't have to acknowledge it so I'm not going too. I have found great blessing in this home. I have found kindness. I have broken my hip, fractured my hip, and I have broken my wrist and the joint in it and I had to be in the infirmary here, which, many people say they would rather die than go into the infirmary, into the—in the infirmary I found more granddaughters and they were just so good to me, and yet today when I see them, there is just that warmth feeling about it, and while I can say that I can see improvements, I couldn't be critical because I have been treated so kindly and the Lord is with me, and I feel that I am one of the most fortunate people in the world and I praise the Lord for it, because he has gone with me through some pretty deep troubled waters, but He has always been there and led me out and on and it's good—it's good. I can't see the advisability of the Lord leaving me here. I thought when I came here I would be able to go to the infirmary and help and bless some lives there, maybe, and I, now I don't do any of those things, I go with a walker, oh, once in a while I get down there, I love the folks there, but I don't see where there is one particle of use of me taking up the place on the earth that I do. I have thought, now it's so near the time, I would like to wait ’til I was ninety, but after that I don't dare to tell the Lord that I think so, I think it's the time for me to be taken, because I am a useless person, really, as far as being a blessing to anybody else—oh, I wanted to do such things. I wanted to go through college. I wanted to write and I wanted—you see, the Lord couldn't trust me with that—I probably would have gotten very cocky and puffed up and all of that—he had to keep me down—but oh, He has been down with me and He has been up with me. The Lord is to be praised. Susan: Tell us about the poetry that you write. Mrs. Bell: About—beg your pardon? Susan: The poetry. Mrs. Bell: Oh—well, that was a was a happy outlet even in my childhood, and ah—of writing poetry—and then in Binghamton I was—oh, I had a poem published by Lucia Trent and in her western anthology. I don't know how I ever got the idea of sending there. There must have been something in my head or something that made me send it, and that was accepted, which was a real puff to my vanity, and there was a write-up in our paper and a picture of me and another woman who had two anthology poems, well, that had brought me to the notice of our local poetry class that Miss Herrick, a retired English teacher at high school, was established that, and so I went to that and of course I learned a great deal and awaited to write more properly, perhaps, but it was—it was a great pleasure as long as it—I think it just disbanded if I remember, or for some reason I had to give it up, but it has been a pleasure and a few, well, the course and the class, she sent out our work a good deal to colleges, in their books or whatever they call them, and we had quite a few published in them and then I had, I was very fond of Woody Magazine because both of my children went through school, and I had two poems there and—and some other places, some other, mostly Christian magazines they had been, but I think that my writing has tended to be along the line of nature very much—very much and it hasn't been anything sumptuous, but I shall always feel that if it had been the Lord's will for me to have had an education that I could have written for, I had the feeling I have the in and He's blessed me, perhaps, with an appreciation that they don't all people feel. That's just—just splendid to see who has—has, ah, written and who has arrived and can do it, and so I have been wonderfully blessed by them. Susan: Could we go back to when you were a little girl, uh, and see the changes in the community, uh, as far as transportation, the way you were brought up? Mrs. Bell: We lived two miles from the school and we lived up a dirt road and, ah, that was real steep over half of the way there and, so that we—when wintertime, often times it would be with great difficulty that we would get to school, and once in a while we would have a hired man that would come for us when it was impossible to get home, and—ah, we—we learned the reading, writing, and arithmetic, and I had dear teachers that helped me, ah, in my desire for more. Susan: It was probably a one room schoolhouse, wasn't it? Mrs. Bell: Yes, uh huh, and, ah, so that one teacher very kindly offered to stay on in the school and teach tenth grade, which she didn't have to do, and she did and I was, I had my certificate for having passed that, and then that is the formal education that this poor soul has had, but in Heaven I'm going to be one of the smartest women there, and we did have a—a yoke of oxen in my childhood and, ah, they were larger than any of the others that I saw at the time—very large red steers, I called them red and, ah, but they, my, ah, they seemed to adore my father, and I think he did them, and they'd be so obedient to him, but he would leave me to—to ride them—to sit by them while he went for an errand or to get a drink, and I would be so frightened I can feel it yet, those great oxen would no more have paid attention to that peeping weaning voice than anything under the sun, and most of our neighbors, I think, had more of this world’s goods than we did, but I do think much of our—I can't say “poverty,” because we were not poverty people at all, because there was too much within and people coming and living in our home and coming—coming to us so much, but—there was peace and goodness and joy in our home, and I lost my train of thought that I was on, and that's what ninety years old does to you. Susan: Well, you're doing very well. Mrs. Bell: And, ah, so that, ah, we had—we had such a desire for a, what they call a platform wagon, that was a good size larger than a carriage and, ah, but we never had the money to get it, so if we had to be, a need for something like that, we had to use a lumber wagon and, ah, I know that a ride in that lumber wagon and look down on those horses scared the liver right out of me as a kid. It seemed as though I was up as high as Heaven and they were elephants or something, and ah, that was the way we were then, and finally my people were able to get a horse, one horse, and in time my brother came back home and they got two more horses, and things moved more swiftly, but not better—not better at all, I think it was a leading of what was coming to town, and my brother-in-laws got a gramophone—gramophone, I think it was called. Oh, we just swarmed that house, every night we'd go, and we were so thrilled with that, it was so wonderful, and then another brother became affluent enough to, ah, buy a Ford car and that was just—just immense to us. In—I was—I had been a member of Calvary Church for nearly sixty years and through those years from the time I was sixteen until, oh, maybe—maybe I better say ten years ago, don't think it was that long—I taught Sunday school and from every grade onward. I even caught—taught a college choir—class, ignorant as I am, and enjoyed them, and ah, there was so many things in the church you can do and love to do and people to love, and I—that was a dear church and is a dear church, but there is difference in the church I was in, things progress. I learn, everything progresses, but old women, ninety years old, they don't progress, but it's good—it's good. I have no feeling of regret. I had such a desire to be good looking, and I was such a homely child and always had been, and I had some beautiful sisters but it just didn't happen to Mother, the seventh child they tell about as favorite, but this one wasn't much in health, and to think—to think I had so much to thwart my growing up and my strength, and I'm the only one of those other children who are living, and the husbands and wives are gone too. Even now the nieces and nephews are going, some, and still the Lord is having me stay on here. It's His will and His will is good, must be. I would never quite dare to ask him, “Lord, please take me out of my body and take me home.” I just don't quite think it's the thing to do. He has got the program He knows and it's very wise that He doesn't let us know. Susan: No, it would be very difficult to get through from one day to the next if we knew what was ahead of us. Mrs. Bell: It surely would—it surely would. I do pray to the Lord, if it's His will, that I shall never have any more broken bones. They are difficult in a way, but you know, the way the Lord went with me through those hard yields is just unbelievable, and even now this sounds boastful, too, dear, but this is the Lord I'm boasting—in the, when I was in this insumary [sic]—infirmary, the—the nurses did praise the progress that I made, they thought it was remarkable and, ah, once in a while a dear one just doesn't try, and that is too bad. Susan: Well thank you very much, Mrs. Bell, for taking the time to talk with us. Is there anything more that you would like to add to this interview? Mrs: Bell: No, I don't think so. Only if I may add this—I wish that everyone who might ever hear this would love the Lord and depend on Him as much as He's caused me to depend on Him. Susan: Thank you. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mrs. Clara Bell Subject The topic of the resource Bell, Clara -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Authors -- Interviews; Hawleyton (N.Y.); Cavalry Church; Poetry Description An account of the resource Clara Bell talks about her childhood growing up in Hawleyton, NY on a farm with her family. She discusses the hardship of her parents' declining health and the importance of the church in her life, as well as her experience in college and desire to become a writer and poet. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 2 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bell, Clara ; Dobandi, Susan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-05-01 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 32:32 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5a7ca79f6c28232519f43ea9ff3a60ea.mp3 2222f151915507ddbafbde6a29b56bcd https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fbba950c6bb0ca2b022b79349df76a43.mp3 b2654f72c2f3b97491557a5b0dc4fcb6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Fenson, Mary Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Politylo, Nettie Date of Interview 1978-04-25 ; 1978-06-20 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 44:56 Minutes ; 47:18 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55907">Interview with Mrs. Mary Fenson (née Mary Pyluck)</a> Subject LCSH Fenson, Mary -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Farms--Interviews; Johnson City (N.Y.); Pentecost; Beckwith Lumber Co. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Interview with: Mrs. Mary Fenson (née Mary Pyluck) Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo Dates of Interviews: 25 April 1978 and 20 June 1978 [Interview #1: 25 April 1978] Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to Mrs. Simon Fenson, 2121 Farm to Market Road, RD#2, Johnson City, NY, on Apr. 25, 1978. Mrs. Fenson, will you start telling me about your life and working experiences in the community, starting with your date and place of birth? OK—start. Mary: What shall I say? Nettie: Start—where you came from. Mary: I come from Austria. I was 16 years old. I come to this country 1906—September 28. My father was here. They take me to factory, then I got a job up there—then I work in a cotton mill. Nettie: When you came from Austria—where did you go first? What city or town did you go first? Mary: Oh, I come on the town called Crampton, but now they don't call that Crampton—they call it Warwick—but before, they call it Crampton, Rhode Island. Nettie: What did you do there? Mary: I go to factory, I make—I work in machine, made thread—they call it spinning. Nettie: Do you remember how did the job—the procedure of the job? Mary: My father go and ask the boss, and they don't wanna take me in because I was still very young. I had to wait two months before I was the age of 16, then they took me in the factory to work. I worked on the machine, where they made thread—thread—that's all. Nettie: How did you make this thread? Mary: The machine did the work—the machine did the work— Nettie: Did you have to feed it? Mary: You have to take one thread and another thread and feed it into the machine—and out of the two twined together makes the one strand of thread. This is called a spinning machine. Nettie: After you left Rhode Island, did you come here? Mary: No, jobs were scarce, pretty strict, my husband had a friend in Taunton, Mass. He went there for a visit and they suggested he come here. There is work here. So, we went there—true, he got a job—and I got a job—all was pretty good. Nettie: Where was this? In Endicott? Mary: No, no, no—Taunton, Massachusetts. Massachusetts. Nettie: What did you do in Massachusetts? The same thing? Mary: Same thing, same thing—just a different company—same thing, same job on the machine. Let's see—and then we stayed there a long time. My husband got a job—was not the greatest job—just holding on—later on he got a job in the silk factory, he was an inspector looking over silk cloth and I was still working. Later, I had an uncle living in Binghamton. My uncle had written me a letter and told me to come to Binghamton—as “Here, we have the EJ factories, lots of people are working here and getting overtime pay. Come here.” We quit our job and came to Binghamton.  Nettie: What did you do? Did you work for EJ, too? Mary: No, I couldn't work - just my husband worked. I was looking for a job but couldn't find one—because—don't need it. I work in Dunn McCarthy five weeks. Nettie: Where? Mary: Dunn McCarthy. Nettie: What did you do there? Mary: Oh—when they were wearing shoes with the buckle on the side—I sewed the tongues onto the back. I worked 5 weeks but could not work any longer as our daughter was—let's see, about 6 years old and was about to enter school. We did not find living quarters so my husband bought a house. I had to stay at home—I was at home. We lived in this house—I cannot how long—I guess, from ’17 up to 1920. Then later, we traded the house for a farm. Nettie: Where's the farm located? Mary: Right over here. Nettie: What's this street? Mary: Oh—just next door! Nettie: What is your address? Mary: R.D. #2, Johnson City! Nettie: OK. Mary: Yeah, from 1920 we came on this farm, we were poor—hard life—dilapidated farm—ah little by little—my husband was working in the factory—there there wasn't much work so he had to quit—decided we would farm—he didn't know anything about farming and I didn't understand farming, but we were young so we figured we would get along. Nettie: You would learn. Mary: Yeah. I was in town occasionally and saw every once in a while, a farmer would come into town with his horse and wagon and bring in the different things to sell. I was thinking, I, too, will try—take the horse and wagon downtown and sell something, also. We owned three cows—so, I made cheese, butter and took it with me. Many customers bought these from me. One time, ah—people bought from me but few paid for it. Times were bad—we were poor—no money coming in from anywhere. Once as I was out delivering butter, cheese—I do not know the name of the street at this time—I was about to deliver some butter to a customer—to one of the Polish ladies—when this man, an insurance man named Bay—I didn't know his first name but last name was Bay, a John Hancock Insurance man—stopped me and asked, “Housewife, how is business?" (Laughing.) “Business is good—people are buying but nobody is paying anything.” Nettie: Free. Mary: Yes, they buy my cheese and butter but make—tell me will pay next week as now I have the electrical bill, all kind of excuses not to pay me. He told me, "Stish, why do you go and knock on doors to sell your wares? Why don't you go to the Johnson City Public Market?" Bay, I have never heard of that market—never had. He said, "Listen, I'll make a map for you." So he proceeded to take out his little book and on a piece of paper he drew a map with directions to get to the market. He said at the market people come to you, buy your wares and pay cash. I thanked him so next week not to go to my house customers, as I'll not receive any money, anyway. That night, I was telling my husband—the next week I will not go to my cheese and butter customers as Mr. Bay told me to go to the market—Johnson City Public Market. My husband replied, "Oh, you are foolish to listen to people—you got good customers—take care of them." I said, "What good are they? I never get paid for my labor—that's the business!” (Laughing.) Also, it just happened I was so fortunate to have a large crop of peas, such beautiful peas, that I picked two bushels, took along cheese, butter, etc., and was on my way to the market with my horse and wagon. I had no idea where I was going. I looked over the directions on Mr. Bay's map—up to Broad Street, Johnson City, straight through the tracks until I hit Main Street, Johnson City—there, directions continue—to ask someone for further directions to Johnson City Public Market. I rode, sure, as he instructed, not to Broad Street but Main Street—there I came upon a green light and stopped, not knowing which way to turn. A policeman across the road hollered for me to go on. I waved "No"—I really could not speak much of English. He came up to me and asked me, "What is the trouble? Why don't you go on?" I told him I didn't know where to go. He asked again, "Where are you going?" I said, "Johnson City Market." He then proceeded to tell me to go straight to the light—turn right—go a quarter block and then you will see the market. I did as he told me—arrived there—knowing it was the market when I saw the horses and wagons, as at that time we had no trucks or cars. I arrived at the front—seeing all the people—was a bit flustered—not knowing where to park my horse and wagon—as it was, here came Mr. Patterson, manager of market—he said, "Welcome, welcome new producer!" I didn't know what to tell him. He said, "Turn the horse around this way."  I said, "I can't, I don't know how." He said, "All right, you sit and I'll turn the horse around." I got down and waited. After taking care of the horse, he glanced at my wares and said, "Good! Good! Good!" Again, he asked, "Do you know how to sell?"  I said, "No." (Laughing.) He was very obliging—says, "Good.” He took some tags from his pocket—saw my peas and came around with a quart basket—says, "This basket is 18¢ a basket or 2/35¢.” All right, when I started selling—by Gosh! I couldn't believe the people at my stall—buying my wares—I couldn't keep up with all the customers—I didn't have to have bags as the people paid for my peas and told me to dump my peas into a basket they carried on their arm. I sold everything. The manager approached me and said, "Come again next week." "Good," I said, "I'll be back." I came back every week—brought anything I had to sell, and everything went and I received cash! I looked around and saw what people were selling to give me ideas. I just couldn't get over it—anything I brought in, it was sold for cash—nothing trust! I raised vegetables—vegetables, very little profit—yeah—too much work and not much good of it. I had vegetables like carrots, onions, beets, etc., on a bench—but being outdoors, they wilted in the sun. One summer day, a lady of 65 or more, who had a stall nearby came to chat with me. As we were talking, she pointed to my vegetables and said, "Lady, you had beautiful vegetables there but now they are wilted—people will not buy wilted vegetables.”  I answered, "What should I do?" "Forget the vegetables," she advised, "why don't you raise flowers?"  I replied, "Flowers! Who needs flowers?" I didn't believe her—she continued telling me that anyone who owned a home and had a small plot of land in back, they always grew vegetables for their own use, but flowers, they have no room to plant. If you sell flowers you will have a good business. I don't know how to go about this new venture. The lady proceeded to tell me that as soon as the snow melts in the Spring and the ground is not too wet—plant some sweet peas and they will grow nicely. I did just that. I wanted to buy flower seeds, my husband laughed and said, "Foolish lady, who is going to eat your flowers?"  I told him, “I'll try it.” (Laughing.) I spent one dollar on flower seeds. After a short time, I told my friend, “My sweet peas are growing so beautifully, such beautiful flowers, can't get over that. What shall I do with them? I don't know.” I had, at no time see arrangements of flowers. She replied, "What? Get scissors—cut them and make bouquets." I thought to myself—how do you make bouquets? The next time I went to the market, I cut some flowers, brought them in to the lady friend and again, asked her to show me how to make bouquets. She was very obliging—showed me the how to, and later said, “Use your head, too,” because if you make a beautiful bouquet you will have many sales, but if you just bunch them they will not be appealing and you will not have a sale. I tried the best I could—so, I continued to plant sweet peas—first a quarter pound, later one pound of seeds—I had flowers—but it was a job—especially the cutting and making bouquets. Now, I started to plant other flowers, even planted the flowers my customers requested. I tried. I noticed a seed catalog—I ordered flower seeds and had such a beautiful assortment of flowers. My customers were pleased—I had asters, zinnias, gladiolas, they didn't like the scent of marigolds. The glads—I had so many—but I sure found success with my flower sales. Many people did not believe me that I could earn more money at the market than the lady who works in a factory. I found if you have the will, strength, you can do very well. Nettie: Do you have to pay for your booth? Mary: Oh yes, we had a nice place now, the market was under cover—beautiful, lot of space, clean—we paid $12 a week but it was worth every cent—before that, we had a open market, that was free, then, they paid us $2.00 to come and sell—always reminded us to come back. As I said, after a while, George F. Johnson built a new market—we liked that very much as summer and winter it was a pleasure to be there. Nettie: Mrs. Fenson, how did they sell meat? Did they come in with chickens, pigs? Mary: We sold many chickens—we never had less than 100-125 chickens sold on Saturday. We killed and defeathered chickens at home and at the market so dressed them as to customer's choice, whole—cut up—free service. Nettie: How much were chickens at that time? Mary: They were 35 cents—nice young fryers (4-5 pounds) at 48 cents a pound. Nettie: How was the meat business? Mary: I don't know—some brought in half a cow—cut into pieces—oh, yes, there was a Mr. Baxter, he had all kinds of meats—big place with about four people working there—all people lined up to buy—all sold by noon. Another man, Truman, sold lamb and calf. Nettie: Did you know to make change? Did you understand how to do that? Mary: Yes, Mr. Patterson showed me how—asked me where I would put the money and I told him in my pocketbook. He gave me a basket (quart), put a newspaper around—he said, "Don't put your money in pocketbook—put your money right here, because when people come up to you have chance to give change." He show me how, then I did like he showed me. He was a very nice man, nice person—he helped me—everything—he said, "When people buy from you, you have to be very nice to them. Always say, ‘Thank you.’” (Laughing.) He teach me—I don't nothing about anybody. (Laughing.) He said, "When anybody come to you—they buy from you—be very pleased—when you give change back—say, ‘Thank you—come again!’” That's what I did. But it was a nice place. Nettie: Any more interesting stories about the market? Mary: Lots of people come up—they find out market—little by little come up, lots of them. These days they was no cars—1921—they was no cars, everybody come up with team or one horse. Nettie: How did you get down in the winter? By sleigh? Mary: No, I just go with the market wagon—that's all—and wintertime, I go once a week. Nettie: Did you go, yourself or with your husband? Mary: No, he didn't want to go—I went myself. Nettie: You're the businesswoman. Mary: I did, sure! That's the first thing—you know. I say to my man, I say, the next week I go to the market because, I hear Mr. Bay, told me market people pay cash. He said, "Don't fool yourself, you got steady customers.” Yeah—those steady customers take everything but they got—nobody pay me a nickel. Well, I went like Mr. Bay told me, my man was so mad he no want to put—he no want to hook the horse to wagon. He put harness in—horse was a big one—I was short—I can't put harness—he put harness in—he don't want to hook horse to wagon because he said I should not leave my customers—but after that he don't say nothing—little by little— Nettie: He saw you were a good businesswoman. Mary: Yes, he find out I don't do nothing wrong. I know this Bay, he don't want me to go—I sell my peas—and for what I got them—I got the cash—I got $16—see, $16 I never see in years. I know my man, he was worrying—he got horses—they need—horses, when you go on field work—horses need oats—we had no money to buy oats. When I got this money I go home—farmer store and I stop and I ask the farmer store's man, I say, "Mister, I got one horse but want to buy a little grain for horses, anything I needed—can that not be too heavy for horse to go?" He said, "No." (Laughing). “How much do you want?" I say I want it, at least two bags—that's 200 horse feed. He said, "That's not heavy—at all—he can take a lots more." Then I take it—two bag horse feed, one bag cow feed, and I got myself pork loin, I like that, 12 cents a pound—he sliced for me, this storekeeper, then I pay everything cash and I come home. I got $4 cash—beautiful! Beautiful! When I got home, my man he said, "What you got in those wagon?"  I said, "Why don't you look over." He see, boy, he grabbed the bag—he said have to go on field—the horses don't have nothing to eat. Then afterwards, he don't say nothing to me. You wanna go—go—you wanna—go— Another thing, at old market there was a man from Owego, who sold all dressed chickens. I decided, I wanted to sell chickens, too. The next week I took with me a crate of live chickens—sixteen chickens in a crate. At the market, people went by, looked, said, "Nice chickens. Nice chickens," but were not buying my chickens—so, one of the following days, it was rainy weather and my husband could not work in the fields, told me he was going with me to the market, as company. He helped me bring out my wares plus the crate of live chickens. I am thinking all the time, I have such beautiful chickens, how can I make that chicken dead? (Laughing.) Nobody is buying my chickens. I am still thinking, thinking, and all of sudden, I got an idea. I looked around and saw my man talking, smoking, smoking—with a couple men. I took a market basket—they don't have that kind these days—and it, I put two roosters and a hen. I tied, covered the chickens so my husband would not see them. As I was leaving, I told my husband to take care of my business, and I'll be back soon. He told me to go—but asked "Where are you going?"  I told him I'm going to go on Main Street, but I didn't go on Main Street—I went to Mrs. Philipso. I arrived at Mrs. Philipso's and called, "Hey kuma, put a pot of water on stove." She then replied, "Do you want to take a bath?" (Laughing.) “No, just get a pot of water ready—I have some chickens here I want defeathered.”  She asked, "Who will kill the chickens?"  I replied, "I don't know," but we finally agreed that since both of us cannot do it, we asked the neighbor. She was obliging—"Get me the knife—I'll kill them." Finally the chickens were defeathered and I returned—to the market. I saw my husband as I left him talking with the men—I asked, "Did you sell anything?"  He replied, “No, no one stopped by." Now, I put my dressed chickens on the bench—still out in the open market. Before long, a Slovak couple come by and stopped to look at the chickens and asked if they were fresh—I said, "They are shaking—are warm." The lady answered, "My God, they are warm.” Man answered, "Oh, the sun warmed them." (Laughing.) I convinced them my chickens were fresh, so they bought the largest rooster for baking. I was beginning to worry if we’ll sell all the chickens, but as it was, another couple came along, another person came along, so within thirty minutes my dressed chickens were sold. I figured if they could sell dressed chickens inside the market I could sell outside, on the bench. Before long, the man from Owego—who had the dressed chickens—reported her to the manager—saying, “That lady is taking my business away—get rid of her.” In all fairness, Mr. Patterson replied, "Harry, you take care of yourself and she will take care of herself.” As time went by, my chicken business grew from twenty to thirty chickens every Saturday, also, kept growing to 120-125 chickens—at holiday time I included ducks, geese—at times we had to buy chickens to keep up. Finally, I had such a business, my husband wanted a picking machine but it cost $360—he figured if someone has one I'll have one—so with pieces of wood, metal, he made one of his own which worked beautifully. The chicken business was a lot of work and a lot of fun—so that was our life going to end—35 years at the market—from beginning to the last. Nettie: What was the year of the closing of the market? Mary: 1953. We sold our farm that year, as raising vegetables, chickens, glads were not necessary if I did not have a market to sell them at. When I sold glads—that alone was good money, but instead of selling each flower I made bouquets for $1.00—medium size 50 cents—people bought for cemeteries. I had beautiful flowers that I kept fresh in pails of water—people were standing in line to buy them. My flowers were sold every time but if had a few left, I gave it to people for their church. They were a good profit for me—I remember—year 1939—it was a fantastic year—sold so many chickens—assorted flowers—glads—gladiola sales alone, I made $135—was pretty good. I always kept track of my sales—always sold everything. Nettie: I must say—you were a good businesswoman. Mary: Oh yes. Nettie: How did you learn to be such a terrific businesswoman? Mary: I don't know! I had neighbors, Bobby, June, they grew many things in their garden. I like planting new things. I planted some new things that my neighbor planted. I don't see why I can't have new plantings even though my neighbor has. They asked me, "Where do you get all those things?"  I replied, "Where? In my garden—growing!" I saw different people asking at June's for rhubarb—I didn't want to invest in seeds, at first, so waited, thinking someone will give me some. One day my husband sent me to Union Center to buy seed because he was going to plant oats. I took my horse and wagon—along the way passed a farm that had a beautiful growth of rhubarb. A lady of the house was passing by—I called to her, "Hey, Mrs., I see you got very nice rhubarb." She answered in Slovak, "Oh, that thing—throw it out to the devil." I then asked, "Maybe, you could sell me some because I do not have any." The lady called her husband to dig out a clump. He did, put it in my wagon and told me to separate the roots, as they will grow thick. I had six plantings from that. Later on, I stopped at another farm—they, too, gave me rhubarb. I, sure, had a lot of rhubarb in my garden—by gosh—I had a lot of rhubarb. Boy! Oh boy! They call it strawberry rhubarb—the pink variety. When I saw the different interesting plants or vegetables—I always wanted to have them, too—I feel if I wanted to take the trouble to plant, take care of it—why not? I had everything! I loved to work—in Europe I remember when I was very young—I worked for a few pennies for this landlord—by gosh! Nettie: Did you sell jam at the market? Mary: No, no, no. At the beginning, I sold cookies—sugar cookies. Nettie: Did you bake them? Mary: Yes, you never believe it—25 pounds on Friday—I use everything for sugar cookies—they was 20¢ a dozen. (Laughing.) Honest to God—people stand in line—want a cookie—almost all lady in market, they ask me, "How soon you gonna have the sugar cookie?" That was lots of fun! Nettie: Did you make cakes? Mary: No, just cookies. They was not enough time—because every time our chicks were small—we had the small chicks, that needed attention, you have a little time so you have to work fast—we had the calves, chickens—so we had a lot of work—God knows. Nettie: Did you sell butter and cheese at the market? Mary: Oh—that just from in the beginning—because we had only three cows—we didn't have that much milk. Later, little by little we bought more cows—we had milk—the milkman picked it up—the milk—at beginning we didn't have that much—just enough to make cheese and butter. Oh yes, when I had her [daughter Nadine] 20th of May—Friday—I made 12 pounds butter and honest to God—20 pounds cheese—we had enough milk. My husband took it to the market—he sold it all. Nettie: You made a businessman out of him. Mary: Oh yeah, funny thing! Nettie: Do you have any more experiences? You did have many interesting experiences. Mary: Yeah. (Laughing). Nettie: Mrs. Fenson, Where did you go to school? Europe? Where did you get married? When you got married you probably went to work. Mary: When I was in Europe—we didn't have much schooling—my dad always said, "You'll never get bread to eat by going to school—you have to go out in the fields to work to have bread." I went to school—very little—they didn't give us a chance to go to school—Polish officials were against us—in attending school. Nettie: What did you learn? Mary: I learned Russian and Polish languages—we had to learn both languages. We attended school 8 to 11 in the morning. Later, work in the fields—that's all. [Interview #2: 20 June 1978] Nettie: Mrs. Fenson, will you continue telling me more about your life on the farm? Mrs. Fenson, let's go back to the flowers you used to raise on the farm—will you tell me more about it? Mary: Well, I raised just what I could sell at the market—see—various vegetables and anything that the customers requested, she accommodated them, and earned a good income. Nettie: You can go on. Did you ever have trouble with the disease that the gladiola had? Mary: No, never, because before you plant gladiolas you should soak them in the water at least 36 hours and then plant it. Nettie: Oh! first soak them— Mary: Oh, yeah—now people don't do that, but before, yes—uh—forgot what you put in the water—can't remember—-if gladiolas get the trips it is very hard to get rid of—just like if a person gets very ill and it is, is hard to get healed—from the trips— Nettie: Well, Mrs. Fenson, when you were on the farm, you told us the last time about how you used to drive the team of horses—did you ever learn to drive a car? Mary: No. Nettie: Did you ever try to learn? Did your husband teach you? Mary: Well, from the beginning we owned a truck. My husband said, "Why, the truck—let's buy a car.” He bought a car—Pontiac—nice car—brand new one. He told me, "Right away I will teach you and then you can drive a car.” All right, good—we bought a car—drove home to the farm and in the driveway—side of house—had to drive on the upgrade. He said, “Sit on this side, I'll tell you how to back out of the driveway.” I drove several feet—stalled the car—he said, “Oh! Oh! That’s all! You'll never learn to drive because if you gonna drive the car you gonna kill yourself—you gonna kill lots of people, you no good.” (Laughing.)  I was mad but they don't do no good—that's about how much I learned to drive the car. I asked, "All these years I used to go with the horses, now I can't go with the car.” He said, "You do not have any nerve to drive the car.” After that I just didn't want to learn anymore—there! As for being retired—we were not really retired that we wanted to—no—it was because my husband was very ill. What to do? Could not work in the fields or garden, noplace, because he was in the hospital most of the time. I got us thinking—to sell the cows and just live like that on the farm. So, we were going to live on the farm with nothing to raise, so we decided to sell the farm. We sold the farm, which is located across the road, and this land on which this house is built was empty—we decided to build a home on this land about the year 1953. Now we thought we could live fairly well, as they say, our business was in order, we saved a little money, no debts and just live—but then my husband started ailing—really ailing—and then just left me—passed away. Yes—it’s terrible—suffering—working—and then— [pause] He—if only he didn't smoke that much. He was a wonderful man—he wasn't a gambler, no drunk, no woman chaser, like they say, he was a wonderful man—he worked—did everything—did not have to have someone doing his work—just smoked endlessly since he was a young man. That's why he got emphysema and heart trouble, left everything. [Pause]. We also had a beautiful home in Florida—I thought that weather would agree with him—oh—but that did not help him. Nettie: Is the cigarettes that really got him? Mary: The cigarettes did that to him—the worst thing during the end, he had in the bedroom by the bed an oxygen tank—he had to inhale the oxygen in order to breathe—it was very difficult for me because he had to lie in bed and I had to apply this mask on him and see that he inhaled the oxygen, otherwise he would choke. That was really awful—God be with him—he just could not get well. Nettie: That's bad—cigarette smoking. I don't smoke—but many do and I don't think it is good for them. Mary: I have a daughter, Olga, I don't know if you knew her, she smokes constantly. I've talked, pleaded with her—nothing helps—just keeps on smoking—that's all. Nettie: Some people are like that. Mary: Yes, some men turn to smoking, some to drinking—you could live without this—live like God intended them to—but people don't look at it in that way. Nettie: I think if people want to indulge they can do so moderately. Mary: Oh—more I know—third of July will be 57 years that we came on this land—57 years. Nettie: Here on the farm? Mary: Yes—57 years. Here—the road—it was such a narrow road which was difficult to have two cars drive on it at one time—dirt road—no electricity—no, no, it was difficult living here. (Laughing.) We had kerosene lamps— Nettie: Where did you have the kerosene lamps? Mary: In the house. You put a kerosene lamp on a table and just sat around—there was no television, no radio, no nothing when we bought the farm, but we lived and everything was all right. Nettie: What did you do for water? Mary: Oh, we had a well near our house. We had to go out and pump our water when we needed water—see, in the house we did not have running water, only a well which you had outdoors to pump and get water. If I was in need of hot water, I had the stove with which I burned wood—that's how we got along. Nettie: That is a big change for people nowadays— Mary: Oh yes—nowadays—it is just like a day and night. People have all the conveniences—like washing machines, etc.—machines for everything—for people this is the life. I used a washboard. Nowadays, many people with conveniences tend to get lazy. Nettie: They don't want to work! No! Mary: I have an example. Look at my daughter, next door—she has a washing machine and dryer. Why does she have to pay for electricity for a dryer? Why, we have the beautiful outdoors where in no time her clothes can be dry and smell ever so sweetly—but no, she puts her clothes in one machine then another, that— (Laughing.) Nettie: This is an age of progress. Mary: Oh yeah, I didn't even have a decent electric iron to iron clothes—I only had a iron that you put on the stove, heated it and then did your, your ironing—heating constantly. Nettie: I had forgotten—how did you iron in those days? Mary: You took this iron—heated it—and with clamps you picked up the iron—then you iron. Nettie: This was a continuous heating? Mary: Yes, constantly. I had three of them heating—when one was cooled, you returned to the stove and took next one—you picked them up with a clamp that fitted on these irons. That's the way I ironed, but, you got used to it—that's all. Nettie: That's right. Mary: People have to get used to everything—if a necessity arises—people get used to it. Nettie: Mrs. Fenson, did you ever do needlework? Mary: I did cross-stitch—oh, how I loved to do that. That is how I spoiled my eyesight—I always loved to do the cross-stitch. Nettie: What did you do? Mary: Oh, everything! Shirts—I worked cross-stitch on shirts which they used on theater plays on Baxter Street (St. Mary's Russian Orthodox Church). I really loved that type of needlework! Nettie: Yeah. Mary: Oh, needlepoint I didn't do that—crochet—I didn't do that. I didn't have enough nerve—you work, work, and nothing is appealing—but embroider-work, you have flowers, birds, etc. Nettie: Did you ever knit? Mary: No, cross-stitch is all I did—that was my life! Nettie: Mrs. Fenson, you must’ve been a pretty good baker. Did you make breads, cakes? Mary: Nothing much—I only made sugar cookies—cookies. Nettie: Oh yes. Mary: Other times—Friday was my day to bake cookies—I sold them on the market at 20¢ a dozen. Nettie: What kind? Mary: White sugar cookie—some people asked for molasses cookies, but it would not pay. I would make sugar cookies with lemon flavor—people sure loved them. I remember for a long time many elderly people would stop and ask, "When are you going to make cookies?" I told them, no more cookies—I had too much work in the fields. Later, we raised chickens, we had our own incubator for the chickens. When we came on the farm there was only one house and barn, no other buildings. Now we had a big new hen house, brooding house, raised own chickens, 3,000 of them, 14 cows. We had enough work—we had to milk cows— Nettie: Didn't you have any machinery? Mary: We had machinery at the time but did not have money to buy the machinery! All right—after a time we saved some money, were doing better. My husband said, "Now, let's buy a new machine." The machine cost $350—that is for a milking machine. It was wonderful—didn't need to milk by hand. All right, then came the harvest time—who is going to help you with the hay? My husband is older—cannot work—I could not do it—children scattered to many cities. So, again, who is going to work? At that point my husband decided, "Let us sell the farm." So, that is our retirement. There was no other way—before that, we were younger, able to work the fields or garden, milk cows, tend to the chickens, but after a person gets older, loses strength— Nettie: You should have had some help, right? Mary: My son-in-law worked in EJ until 4pm—later during daylight he would help my husband put the hay in bales, put it in the barn, and even on Saturdays and Sundays, he helped us. That's true, you can't find people to work on the farm, as industry is not too far off. They'd rather work in industry and not work such long hours on the farm. As I said, we finally sold the farm. My husband just did not want to along with the farm as, although we did get a nice sum for the farm, he started ailing. It was a constant procedure, to the hospital, home, operations, back and forth—back and forth. Must be that was our fate! It was bad, too—one of our daughters, Olga, had an operation—then the other daughter, Nadya, had an operation—they had appendicitis. Olga did not cost us too much but Nadya's operation cost quite a bit more as she had a rupture. She was in the hospital much longer. Nettie: Nadya—is that Nadine? I am Nadya, also. Mary: Yeah, that is Nadine. That is a beautiful name. When Nadya got ill they took her to the hospital. The doctor did not operate, at first, but told my husband it will cost you $500. We didn't have $500, so my husband went up to see his brother, Steve, for a loan. We paid the bill, doctor’s bill, at Lourdes Hospital. It was very hard for us to pay the hospital bill but the Sister of Lourdes Hospital were very sympathetic and made a deal. They told us, “You live on the farm, so try and pay us with produce, poultry and eggs—anything you can spare—in this way you can take care of the bill.” Nettie: This was a good deal because the hospital needs produce, chicken and eggs. Mary: Oh yeah, they always took 30 dozen eggs, 1 dozen cut up dressed chickens. They appreciated all this, as this is what they had to go out to buy, anyway. Nettie: This is a good example for this kind of barter now, since prices and taxes are so high. Mary: Oh no, not now—everything is different now—as day and night. People have changed—most are mixed up. (Sigh). Life has passed with all tribulations—as I said—times were tough, first one daughter had an operation, then the second daughter had an operation, and in 1940—all of sudden our house burned. Yeah, I was working with my daughter Olga in the garden and my husband was in the henhouse. I had not been in the garden very long when my husband yelled, "Ma, the house is on fire." Our garden was quite a ways from the house, therefore we did not see anything. Immediately, Olga ran up to the house and yelled, "Come on, come on!" I finally hurried to the house—by gosh, after we looked around the house was burning blaze. This was about 2pm. Nettie: What happened? Mary: Short circuit—what we had, everything perished. As for insurance, all we got was $500—because they had no fire stations, therefore we could not get more money. Nettie: What could a person do with so little as $500? Mary: That is right. We wanted to build a new home—but, what to do for money? Mr. Beckwith of Beckwith Lumber Company was also a person who was sympathetic to our needs. When he heard of our bad luck he came to see us. He asked, "Simon, do you have enough insurance?" My husband replied, "I hate to tell you we have only $500."  He said, “You can't too much with $500, but don't worry—find yourself a carpenter, have him measure how much lumber, etc., is needed and notify me. Everything will be taken care of.” That is exactly what we did, and the next day a truck from the lumber company arrived with the lumber. (Laughing.) We bought our lumber from Beckwith's during the years, whether to build a barn, henhouse, and paid our bills well. We eventually built our new home and paid our bills—somehow God sent us strength and business was good at the market—whatever we brought, we sold everything! It was just good luck—although everything was perished in the fire, but God gave us strength to work so that we came out—all right. Nettie: I think Mr. Beckwith was a good man to do that for you. You could see that he had a lot of respect for you—knowing you will pay your bills. Mary: Yeah, Yeah. Nettie: Nowadays situations are different. You would not find anyone who would trust a person like that. Mary: That is right, if you live a honest, clean life, people don't forget. Nettie: That is true, that is true. Mary: It will be 57 years that we lived on the farm—on July 3 or 4 was Sunday and people celebrated Monday. It was so cold— Nettie: 57 years ago? Mary: By gosh, when we moved up on the farm from Binghamton we had no lights, we could not see anything. I couldn't see my husband and he couldn't see me. (Laughing.) Here we wanted to connect our stove, but since we couldn't see what to do we decided to do just—wait until morning. The next morning we connected the stove, put the coal on the wood, and were warmed up—it was so cold that whole week that we thought we would have a frost—July 1920. Even with all of life's tribulations—if I had to relive my life, honest to God, I would relive it the same. Nettie: You would relive your life the same? Mary: I would relive it. If God told me to relive what I had been through, I would! Only give me back my strength—I just love to work in the fields, in the garden—that was my love, the outside, to work. I'm not like the ladies who get together for a coffee klatch or the ones who get together for bridge—theirs is a different life—I loved the outdoors. Sometimes, during the winter weather the snow was so high, you could not see very far, my husband would start off for the woods and say, "Do you think you could leave the children alone and go to the woods and help me?" (Laughing.) We had about 35 acres of woods—you could get a lot of lumber out of them—but some of the trees needed a cross-cut saw, so I would go with my husband and help to hold the saw as he cut the lumber. Nettie: Did you go out in the bitter weather? Mary: Sure, I'd put on boots and go in the deep snows. When you are out in the snow you don't realize you are cold—because you are working. When times are tough you get used to do everything. Nettie: I think when you are in the woods or working in the garden it gives you such a peace of mind—such a peaceful atmosphere! Mary: Yeah, while my husband is cutting the wood I'm piling the wood—helping him in any way I could. We worked all the time—we had enough of wood for our home use. We had a country schoolhouse down the way to which we sold several cords of wood, too. Nettie: Do you still have it? Mary: No, no, we sold it with the farm—that's all. We sold everything with the farm but two acres—there it lies dormant—I can't work it anymore—the land is idle—when I was able to work I had everything, raspberries, vegetables, etc.—even flowers. Here we get a lot of traffic passing our home, we were able to sell all of our produce and flowers. Now, I look at the idle land—I can't walk— Nettie: It must make you feel bad, doesn't it? Mary: It hurts. It pains me to know you have the land but I can't walk, I can't even bend—it's right there—you can't get to it—I see it—that's all. I've been to many doctors—upper body is fine but my feet and knees, arthritis. I have X-ray after X-ray, but it does no good because all they tell me is I have bad arthritis. I know all of this and it is frustrating. You could have all the money in the world, but, if you don't have good health—it is not good. My husband tried to see that all of our debts were paid, we saved a little money, and since our children have grown up, married and moved to distant places, we would just enjoy life together—but look what happened. He became ill—very ill—left this world—that's all—only I am here—left alone on this earth—that's all. (Laughing.) We came to live on this road 57 years ago—this road leading to the airport. No one is left—they have all passed away—only I am still living. Oh no, there is one man, a Slovak man who lives in a small white house near the school. His name is Valenta. Nettie: We were talking about the holy day called Troitsa. Do you recall how they celebrated that day? Mary: Our church parishioners go to the cemetery on that day to have services, memorial services for the deceased of the parish. Many of the people put branches on the graves to commemorate the day. Nettie: Do you remember how they used to decorate the homes on that day? Mary: Yes, Yes everybody had branches of trees on the doors, windows on that holy day, Troitsa. They also strewed large blades of greens—someone told us it is called cattails—on the floors. In Europe they used to bring large trees and dig them in the ground around the doors—greens everywhere—every niche in the house, roof, etc. Nettie: What was the reason for that? Mary: It was a such a holy day that they all did that and believed in it, I don't understand. (Day of the Holy Spirit). Also, on that day we used to go to the marshes to pick the cattails which grow there. This Troitsa (Pentecost) is a big holy day and I also, remember when I was a young girl in Europe we used to make bouquets of cattails, greens and May flowers. All girls of my age, we took the bouquets to church—filing in twos we would walk down the aisle and have our bouquets blessed by the priest. Also, another custom was celebrated 3-4 weeks later on another holy day was, we made wreaths and also took took them to church to be blessed and then, about a week later, about of August 19 we took fruits of all sorts to be blessed—thanking God for a good harvest of fruits. Nettie: What place did you come from, Mrs. Fenson? Mary: Austria. Nettie: Austria—that must have been on the border of Poland or Russia. Mary: Yes, on the border of—uh—Wolynskia Gubernia [Volhynian Governorate]. Nettie: Was the name of the town? Mary: Selo Wisosko was what it was called—we call it Brody. Nettie: My father was from that city. Mary: You mean it?! (Laughing.) The Wolynski boys used to come to our town, just to our neighboring selo [town]. They said they liked when the Wolynski boys came because they were nice gentlemen who brought candy, cigarettes, tobacco, and even brought liquor. (Laughing.) The Austrian girls made pirohys, so there was always a party. Nettie: Mrs. Fenson, thank you very much for telling me more of your life and experiences—I really appreciate it. Mary: You are welcome. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mrs. Mary Fenson (née Mary Pyluck) Subject The topic of the resource Fenson, Mary -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Farms--Interviews; Johnson City (N.Y.); Pentecost; Beckwith Lumber Co. Description An account of the resource Mrs. Fenson continues to talk about her life on a farm in Johnson City, NY and the day a fire destroyed her home and how the Beckwith Lumber Co. assisted in rebuilding. She also discusses the customs of her culture on Pentecost (Troitsa). Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 21; Recording 22 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fenson, Mary ; Politylo, Nettie Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-04-25 ; 1978-06-20 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 44:56 Minutes ; 47:18 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fd14cb6fd2a323666577c587b54a87ce.jpg 1ba1da65af72e110a94df2af283b4af6 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3fe38fc5902eff667eef1349c6e1e5db.mp3 7bdd105bdeae8ceed1031d48aaa83ae0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-02-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Nancy Cain (Television producer) Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Nancy Cain is a videographer, producer and author. Cain started her career as a member of the Videofreex, a group that toured the country in the 1960s and 1970s and produced experimental videos on Woodstock, the Chicago Seven and geodesic domes. Cain was the co-creator and producer of the PSB show, The 1990s, and the author of the book, Video Days."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4995,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Nancy Cain is a videographer, producer and author. Cain started her career as a member of the Videofreex, a group that toured the country in the 1960s and 1970s and produced experimental videos on Woodstock, the Chicago Seven, and geodesic domes. Cain was the co-creator and producer of the PBS show The 1990s and the author of the book Video Days. Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam Videographers; Baby boom generation; Watergate; Free Speech Movement; The Cold War; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Angela Davis; Attica"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Vietnam Videographers; Baby boom generation; Watergate; Free Speech Movement; The Cold War; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Angela Davis; Attica Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 154:16 Subject LCSH Video recording; Authors; Television producers and directors; Videofreex (Production company); Cain, Nancy (Television producer)--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Nancy Cain Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 12 February 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: Nancy Kane. Nancy Kane. Well, with someone else. The first question I always ask, especially in the last 50 to 60 people I have interviewed, is to tell me about your growing up years, where you grew up, the influence your parents had on you, maybe a little bit about your high school and college years. NC: Oh. SM: Just kind of the most influential people in your life and what made you who you are. NC: Okay. Well, Detroit, Michigan. Just when everything was great in Detroit and the car industry was booming and everybody was rich. I was just thinking back about my childhood, a very happy childhood. My dad was in the advertising business. They were interested in theater and the arts, and I have a younger sister, and we were both interested in those things too. Went to Mumford High School. I went to the University of Arizona for two years. Then I came back to Detroit and did a year at Wayne State University. And then I left college and got a job in a resident professional theater. And I worked for about three years of full-time doing theater in Detroit. And I moved to New York and also worked in the theater. And I ultimately got a job working for a producer at CBS Network, which is where I discovered video and where I was completely radicalized. And my whole life really changed because of that. SM: What year was that when you were working there? NC: 1969. SM: Oh, that is a big year. NC: Yeah, it was that was summer. I started working at CBS during that summer of the Woodstock Festival. Let me see what else was happening at that summer. The meth one? The meth one. SM: I think there is also, that year is when the women protested at Atlantic City. NC: That is true. Right? They burned the proverbial bra. But yeah, women's lib was just starting. SM: Yeah, you went to Wayne State University, and I think that is where Charlene Hunter Gaunt went too in her early years. She graduated from Wayne State. She was on the Larry Report for many years, and she was from the south, but she went to Wayne State and graduated from there. When you were there, were there any teachers or family members or peers up to 1969, maybe even someone at the TV station you worked at that really inspired you, that helped you go the direction that you went? NC: Well, I knew quite a lot about television and television production because my dad was in the advertising business. When television first started in the late forties, he told his clients, "Look, this is where you are going to put your ad. Everybody is getting a television set, and this is what we are going to do." And they said, "Well, that is great, but there are not any programs to advertise on." So, my dad started producing quite a lot of television programs for his advertisers, and they spent a lot of time at TV station, and I watched the directors and the people who did all the jobs. But I think mostly that it was my family and what my family liked I liked. But when I got to New York, I think the big change that was happening at that particular time when I was at CBS, change was that there were only three TV stations. There were three television networks there. Everything was centralized, and there was no concept of people having their own communication decentralizing the television. So, in that summer of 1969, while we were trying to put together some kind of a new kind of documentary form for the network that I met people called the Video Freaks. SM: Yes. NC: Had just come back from the Woodstock Festival, and they were the first people I had ever known to have portable video recording equipment. There just was no such thing there. It was not even any tape until the end of the (19)50s. It was live television. That was, if they wanted to save it, they would make a kinescope, which means that they would film the TV screen and save it. And that is what they had. So, when video was invented, that kind of changed the whole landscape. And they came back, and I, at the time was interviewing a lot of people who had thoughts about changing television, what could be new in television. And they came back and they showed me pictures, video from the Woodstock Festival, which is the exact opposite of anything that I had ever seen before. The reverse angle of everything. In other words, I had seen some clips of famous rock and rollers up on the stage, and I saw that it had been raining and that there were like a hundred thousand people there. And it was phenomenal. The video freaks came to my office and showed me, they showed me video of miles, long lines waiting for the porta-potties. SM: Hmm. NC: They showed me people just totally stoned, tripping out acid. Fabulous. Not the show, but the actual event. So that is the first video that I ever saw. And we hired them immediately, and I spent then both rest of that summer traveling with the video freak trying to document what was going on in the counterculture in the United States. SM: Yes. NC: We traveled all over, and that is when I saw that that video was going to make it possible for all people to be able to communicate. You did not have to wait and see what the TV station sent you to make your own media and send it to the people that you wanted to send it to. It was really very primitive at that time. But if you look at the progression, it was the invention of videotape, cable television, the internet, YouTube, and it is now totally democratized media so that anyone can say anything and put it out to millions, gazillions of people in one click all over the planet. And that is what I had in mind, even though there was not the technology to do it. SM: Who were these people? How many of them were there? Was- it was just a small group that went to which... NC: The video freaks at the time that I met him, they were three people. David Court, who was a kind of media artist in New York City who had been working at the Brooklyn Children's Museum. He had a port attack. He went to the festival with his girlfriend, who was a painter at the time, Curtis Radcliffe. They lived down on the Lower East Side. They went out to the Woodstock Festival with their camera, and they met Perry Peace dale. He was 20 years old. He had a Panasonic camera with no viewfinder in it. And they met up and they were probably the only people there that had video cameras. And they set up a booth out there and started. People had never seen them, so they set up a little booth where people could, they would turn on a video camera and people would see themselves on video on the screen when they were just standing there. And how people say, "Wow, is that me?" They would look at it and be all excited. So, they did that. So, there were the three of them. By the end of the project at CBS, there were 10 of us very majorly fired after we did our proposal. SM: Did you become the leader of the group? NC: There was a... No, because leaders, that was not happening. SM: Oh, that was like, yes... NC: Very great for women at that time, because mostly up until that point, men had the thing, men had the jobs, men would hire the women, men would tell the women what to do, but no more. And suddenly there was equality. And by the end of the project, there were 10 of us, and we were all fired. They were all people that were working on the CBS project. And we all left CBS simultaneously after our pre-presentation to the network. SM: How long did Video Freaks last? NC: Video Freaks is still existing. We finally after, what, 30 years? I am not exactly sure, but about three or five years ago, we actually made a partnership agreement and are now kind of watching over these several thousand videotape that were shot, although we worked together and live together because for financial reasons, not because we were in love or anything. We had some equipment and we needed to share it. SM: Right. NC: So, we had a loft down in SoHo, New York, and that was too expensive. And so, in the summer of 1970, we rented a house in the Catskill Mountains, a big old farmhouse, and we turned that into a media center. SM: Oh, wow. NC: We were there for about nine years. And we were open to video artists and producers from all over who could come and edit video and work on, and then we... SM: Are a lot of your videos on YouTube. NC: Yes. SM: Yeah. Is YouTube a direct descendant of video Freaks? NC: I say yes, even though, because the concept, we had the concept, we spent several years traveling around, teaching people how to run this equipment. So, we got grants from the New York State Council on the Art and from the National Endowment and other such. And we started a not-for-profit called Media Bus. And we would traveled mostly over the state of New York. We traveled all the whole throughway system, and we went to libraries and museums and cultural places, and YMCA and any place where people gathered. And we would have workshops and we would show people how to work this equipment and how to take control of their own media. And we would go out on the streets and we would record people, actual real life, interviewing people, asking William, "What is happening in this community? What are you doing with this and that?" And then they'd say, "Okay, now we have these videotapes. What do with them?" And that was just the beginning of cable television. So, the cable companies were wiring up cabling, all the whole state, all these small towns now would sign contracts with cable company. And in their contracts with these cable companies, there was something called access, community access, public access. And what that meant was, "Hey, you big rich media conglomerate, we are letting you cable up our whole town. And so, what we expect is for you to give us a channel on your big cable system so that we can communicate in our own community with each other." But the cable companies, they did not like that. And we were kind of outside agitators. And we would keep to all these people and community people and young people and the Boy Scouts and everybody. We would walk them over there to the cable company, take our little meeting with the cable company and say, "Okay, we want to do it. We are ready to go and have our own C station." And they had to do it. SM: See, that is an unbelievable (19)60s 70 thing, because you are really challenging the establishment there, number one. Number two, you were truly living what, as Tom Hayden used to always say when he came to our campus, the difference between power and empowerment. You were empowered. NC: Yeah. SM: Because you were in control. NC: Yes, sort of except that we were not making any money and we were not telling anybody how to make any money either. So that was like... SM: I went into the, obviously the computer and I on the YouTube, and I found a couple of your things on there, and you probably know, you have probably seen them. One was that short film you did on that woman who was leaving. NC: Harriet. SM: Harriet, yeah. The first time I saw it, well, the first time, I did not know why she was laughing all the time. Why was she laughing all the time? NC: Well, you know what? I do not know. She was hysterical. You can hardly see that the image on that tape. SM: Right. NC: You barely see it anymore. But what it was is we lived in a small town called Lanesville. That is where our big farmhouse was. And there were maybe 300 people in that town altogether. So, we had put together, because there was no cable in Lanesville, we decided to make a broadcast television station. We had before we left the city, Abby Hoffman had given us a TV, a television transmitter, because he had wanted us to make something for him because he wanted to do pirate television. Abby was doing a book called, I do not know if it was Steal this book, or one before that, where he was trying to empower people in all areas. He wanted to do, was have some kind of a pirate television station that would be run out of a bus or a truck or someplace that could move around. He wanted it. He wanted it to cut into the networks and put on this people's television. So, he came over with that idea, and Perry and Chuck, our technical guy, tried to figure out how to make that happen. And he came over to our loft and they showed him that they were able to figure out how to actually broadcast from one room to the next room. And so, we would not have to pound on the wall or shout it. He could actually broadcast to the next room. But he was very disappointed in that because he was thinking the city or the five boroughs, at least. Come on kids, let us get together. And that seemed to be a little bit more that we can handle technically. So, he left, but he left the transmitter, which he had paid for 300 and something dollars. So, when we moved to the country, we took this transmitter with us. And what do you know, it worked with a little bit more copper wire and a little bit of mass. We figured out how to broadcast from the roof of our house to all these little houses in Lanesville. And so, we would put on Wednesdays and on Saturday night, we would put on Lanesville TV, probably America's smallest TV station. And that way we got to know everyone in town because it was the only station that came in because it was stuck in the mountains. It was in a very high mountains on both sides and very, very, a narrow roadway that went down there. So, everybody in Lanesville watched Lanesville TV. So, I would walk down the road to the post office, I would pass by this little trailer that was sitting next to the post office. And Harriet one day who lived down there in that little trailer, she called up to me, she said, "Hey, you want to see my baby?" And I said, "Yeah, I definitely want to see your baby." And I am always curious about going into people's houses. I always wonder what it is like. And so, I rushed right down in there, and she lived in this add-on trailer with her husband and five children. And right down there was just really intense. And she showed me her little baby Toddy, and she invited me in there, and I spent a lot of time in there talking, and she was reading the paper, the New York Daily News. And anyway, we got to be friends. And so, I asked her if I can make a videotape about her life. She said, "Sure." I said, "What I will do is I will just bring the camera down, we will leave the camera running, and we will see what you do all day. And then we will come back and we will edit it. We will see what the story is." So I would go down there and I would spend the time with her, and she'd be cleaning the house and doing the wash and hanging the wash. And then Bobby, her husband would come home with his father and all the Benjamin people. She would make hot dogs for them and they had lunch. And then the teenagers would come, mom, I this. I do not want to do that. And it was just like a whiny stuff and just typical family stuff. And it was going on. And one day I just asked her, I said, "Harriet, do you ever think of just, how can you stand it? Do not you ever feel like taking off?" And she said, "Well, that sounds like a good idea. Let us do that." I said, "Okay, we will do that." And the camera was running, camera one running. She grabs her suitcase. She starts putting everything that she owns into this suitcase. She walks out into the yard, opens up the door, puts her stuff in the trunk of the car. It was not a trunk, I think it was a station wagon, so it was back. Slams down the hood, jumps into the car. I jumped into the car with her, especially, she pulls out of the driveway and starts singing, "Roll Out the Barrel", and starts driving and we are driving and driving and driving and driving. I am thinking, what is happening? Is this an act? Is it real? Is this life? Is it what she wants? Anyway, it turned out that, of course, she went back home for her family and did all that. And I came home with this footage. And so, when I was cutting the tape, I went with it. And at a certain point, I had her leaving. And the further that we drove, the more hysterical she became. She just was so pleased with herself. And I think the answer to your question, why was she laughing? Was that she empowered herself. She saw that she could do it. SM: That is a very important message within the era too. NC: Yeah. SM: Yeah. One of the other videos, and again, I did not look at all of them, but there was that very short 32nd one with Abby Hoffman. I think Paul was to the right of Abby. And when he was talking about Jay Edgar Hoover, is that... NC: I do not know that tape. SM: That is a video freaks tape too. And it was very short and sweet. It was really good. NC: 30 seconds of Abby, where did you go? SM: Oh, you just go on the computer and you put your name in there under YouTube. NC: Oh, you went... SM: Yeah, you got to go YouTube and then YouTube, you will come up with the tape of that we just described, and then you will see a little snippet. Some of the things are not yours, but this one looks like it is a Video Freaks. And it was very good telling about J Edgar Hoover, a 70-year-old man who would never had sex. And I mean... NC: [inaudible] SM: Abby is unbelievable. Anyways, what were some of the events that Video Freaks covered in those times? I know they covered Woodstock with those films. NC: As it started out, it started out with Woodstock. All right. So then during that summer it was the... Oh, that is what you may have been talking about. It was the trial of the Chicago eight. SM: Yes. NC: And that was the first place that I was assigned by my boss at CBS, go with the Video Freak and cover that trial. And David Court had gone to Brandeis University with Abby, and that was our connection. They were friends. So, we drove out to Chicago, and I went with Perry, and David, and Curtis, the first three original Video Freaks. And we made that connection with Abby, and he had just been released from jail, although the trial was still on. We met them at some kind of basement coffee house. And there was a long, long interview with David Court shooting it in. Carrie holding the microphone. Oh no, I think it was Terry shooting and David holding the microphone. And there might have been a little clip from that of Abby speaking most out outrageously. And so, we were on the streets with that. The streets were just filled with people, and they were not only, there was huge protests going on it. So, it was not only protesting about the trial, it was protesting about everything that was going on. And the war, basically women's right. Basically, women's rights, everything. So that was the second major thing. And I really had no experience with the counterculture at all until I went on that shoot. SM: Were you allowed to go inside the trial or did you have to wait outside? NC: Oh, no, there were no cameras allowed inside there at all. Too bad. But a lot of people have recreated those events. SM: Were you able to sit there though, or just watch or- NC: No. SM: Okay. NC: No, but we spent a lot of time with them and also met the Black Panther Party at that time, and we did a long interview with Fred Hampton. SM: Oh, wow. NC: And he was killed by the Chicago police three weeks, maybe three or four weeks after we interviewed him. I was so strange. We went up to this place and there is all these Black Panthers who were at a beautiful town home owned by a supporter of theirs in Old Town Chicago. And we go up there bloated with people and they are saying, they are talking and they are laughing. They are like, "Oh, oh, off the pigs." And all this stuff. And I did not know what they were talking about. And I would say, "Well, what does that mean?" And I said, "Well, I am not from Chicago, so I do not know." I got a lot of big laughs. I did not really realize what it was. SM: Were the other Black Panthers there, like Stokely Carmichael? NC: Oh-no, no, not Stokely. Well, people that- SM: Cleavers? NC: I do not know the names of the, but we did a long interview with Fred, who was at that time. SM: What was the gist of that interview? What was he saying? NC: I am going to look up on a page and see if I can find something that I quote you. SM: Because I know there is a video of him on the streets, but I do not think that is a Videofreex- NC: But there is a Videofreex, and I think it is on, might be on, if you go to YouTube and go to Videofreex, the page Videofreex that has a bunch of stuff on it. And I think that it has pretty much a lot of the Fred Hampton interview. Let me see here. SM: One of the things when I was looking also at your experiences with CamNet later on, these are quotes that I think, and correct me if I am wrong, that go directly back to Videofreex. And these are quotes from you. "What we are after is emotional resonance. People are allowed to talk more than just a sentence or two. It is a window into the real dirty, unvarnished, unedited world. Just tell the story by telling us." And that was CamNet, but was not that Videofreex too? NC: Well, that was it. CamNet was, that is still my email address. So CamNet happened, well, let us see, after the Videofreex after Lanesville TV, some of us moved to Woodstock, New York. We did. And we started doing cable television access in Woodstock, New York, which was loaded with a lot of artists. And we got into a lot of trouble there with access and letting people say what they wanted to. And that was a lot of fun. And then I moved to Venice Beach, California. And well, by the time I got to California, I had with many of my friends and colleagues, put together a program called The (19)90s, which played on public television for seasons. And after The (19)90s, it was over, that played from 1989 to like (19)92. And after that, Judith Bender and I put together CamNet, which was the Camcorder Network. And somehow it was through a series of events it got cable access in, I think eight large cities, 24 hours a day. So, we are on the air 24 hours a day playing these videos that our correspondence would send us from all over the country. And that got a lot of press. And we got on the media food chain that the Wall Street Journal picked up on it. Wall Street Journal did a piece, and they actually made a little drawing of us, the whole thing, and put it on the front page of the marketplace. So, then the LA Times picked up on it and TV Guide picked up on it, and just one thing after another. And it got very big, but we could not raise enough money to keep it going, and it eventually folded. SM: Well, I have some questions here that are going back and forward between Videofreex and CamNet, so bear with me here. I am going to get back to Videofreex just briefly. In terms of you personally, no one else but you, what did this experience with Videofreex teach you about the young people of that period of (19)69 and (19)70, of the Boomer generation? And secondly, what did it teach you about our nation as a whole? NC: Oh, well, it certainly opened my eyes to the politic. I had never been really that political, but I think it was that, it was the opening, the freeing of the media and the ending the war. Those seemed to be the things that changed everything for me. And I never went back. SM: That Fred Hampton experience and videotaping him, or again, the tape I remember seeing is that he was a powerful speaker and that he seemed to be very well educated when he got on that stage in Chicago, wherever- NC: But he was like 22 years old or something. SM: Yeah. He so seemed to be, why was he such a threat to the establishment? NC: Well, let me see how I say... Why was he such a threat? Well, the Black Panther Party was a threat because they wanted their rights and they were powerful. And yes, they were definitely a threat. Let me just look, I am just looking through my notes here just to look back to see what kind of quotes I have from him here. Yeah. Fred Hampton. Fred Hampton, here is what I wrote about it. "Fred Hampton stood out among the Panthers as a thoughtful, soft-spoken leader. Perry asked him the first question, "You and the people around you always seem to be in danger. You could be killed as you walk out of here. If you are killed, will the breakfast program go on a day-to-day level?" And Fred Hampton answered, "Last year, we started a free Breakfast for Children program, and this year we gave it to the people, and they're running the program already. Our whole program is geared toward educating the masses of people. And say that Free health Clinic we have, the people in the community are going to run that clinic. And after a while, we are going to give them that clinic and we are going to move on to higher levels because we understand the difference between the vanguard and the people. We are not worried about them killing anybody. I think that you know they jailed Huey P. Newton, and they ran Eldridge Cleaver out of the country, and they jailed Bobby Seale. And we have got David Hilliard up there now who is very capable, most capable of running the Black Panther Party. So, they can just take all of them they want to, and we will have someone to fulfill that position because that is the type of organization the Black Panther Party is. We do not produce buffoons. We produce leaders. And anybody in the Black Panther Party and any type of cadre is becoming a leader. Our Deputy Minister of Health in the State of Illinois can run the Black Panther Party. And so, can anybody in this cadre. So, all that they are involved with is an excursion in futility. Because anybody that tries to deal with wiping out the leadership of the Black Panther Party is dealing with a time waste. A futile effort to seize some type of power that can never be seized, because a type of unending flow of this power. Every time somebody moves, we are just producing more and more people. The story goes, they wiped out Martin Luther King, and they wiped out Malcolm X, you know what I mean? And they wiped out all these people, and these people were produced. So, I think that in the near future, you will see programs initiated by the government. They will probably have the CIA protecting people like us, because when they wiped out Huey P. Newton and Eldridge Cleaver popped up, I know very well they would be saying, "I wish to hell we would have kept Huey P. Newton on the scene because this motherfucker is out of his mind." There was righteous laughter and nods of, "Right on, right on, right on."" And that was the beginning of our interview with them. SM: Wow. Can I use that in my- NC: Absolutely. SM: Yeah. This is important because when you are looking at the period that we are talking about, I think I even talked about this with Paul, that one of the challenges in this period was the Black Panther challenging these established African American leaders, which was the Dr. King's and the Bayard Rustin, James Farmer, Roy Wilkins. And even the Julian Bonds and the John Lewis's. This was Robert Moses, the guy from SNCC, I think left SNCC because he felt it was becoming too radical in some respects. So, did you sense that when you saw the Fred Hamptons, the Black Panthers? Did you even think about the people like I just mentioned here, the civil rights leaders that went through so much in the (19)50s and the (19)60s? NC: Well, because they could not have been a Black Panther party without that, I feel. That was the next step that it had to be. And they could not wait any longer. They just could not. They had to go. SM: Do you feel, it is something that I have felt for a long time, that when someone asked Martin Luther King what he thought of Thurgood Marshall, he had tremendous respect for Thurgood Marshall. But he felt that the Brown versus Board of Education decision and all the things that he had been involved in were two gradual. That was the gradual approach to civil rights. So, he wanted it now, Dr. King. So, the next phase you think was the Black Panthers, or even- NC: What it looks like, does not it? SM: Yeah. Then no more of this gradualness. The other thing is, what did you think of the Yippies? Because I know, I have talked to several people, Paul and many others now. I have a tremendous... I have always liked Abbie Hoffman, so- NC: He is great. SM: I have always respected Abbie. I have had my differences opinion about Jerry Rubin, but Abbie was kind of unique. But when you think overall about the Yippies, you were around them in Chicago. You saw Abbie, you saw Jerry. And then you were around people like Tom Hayden, Rennie Davis, Dave Gallinger, Lee Weiner, and even their lawyers, Leonard Weinglass, and William Kunstler. And Bobby Seale obviously was there. Just your thoughts on being around them. NC: Right. Well, was in intense and it was heavy. I know that the Yippies are kind of famous for being like comics. They made it exciting. They made it funny. They made it like a party. They made it good time. At least that is what it seemed like. And they brought a lot of kids to Chicago, so that when we went there, we were involved with the defense, the group. This one, I am looking down here to see if I can find. Okay. "Abbie invited us to the Conspiracy Defense office, Chicago seven. Dave Dellinger, renowned pacifist, activist for nonviolent socials change, the oldest of the defendants," I am just reading down my notes here," "was there, along with William Kunstler, fiery defense attorney, Abbie Hoffman of the Yippies, and Tom Hayden of the SDS." Okay. So, we were there at the place and we were taping and we were taping. We have been taping for an hour, and nobody said anything to us about the camera, the microphone. Finally, Tom Hayden, who ultimately turned to us and said, "Who are you with?" And David said, "Well, it is partly an underground thing, but we are also showing the footage to CBS." That is all Hayden had to hear. And he refused to let us leave the office with the footage. After a long, long, long debate, David erased the major sections of the video while Hayden, who did not trust CBS, looked on. And after the meeting, I called Don, my boss in New York, and I told him, "We have run into a little glitch here, and I was wondering if you could tell me, if just let us say, if the FBI calls you and asks to see the footage that we were shooting, would you show it to them?" Oops, just lost my page. I do not even know what page I was on. All right. Bear with me here a moment. SM: Okay. Yeah. While you are looking for that, I just want to say that some of the people that I have interviewed just are very flippant about you. They said, "Oh, they are just a theater group and they did not mean nothing." And so, it was very important in this project that I get substance from as many people as possible. But yeah, there was a lot of theater involved, but- NC: Yeah, but that is what brought them, that is what brought them. SM: There was also- NC: That brought kids. SM: Also, Abbie I thought was very serious. And actually, I find out he was well liked by just about everybody including his enemies. NC: Yeah. Here is some more Abbie stuff and you are going to have a hell of a job editing this. Sorry about this. SM: It is okay. NC: But just going around and around, talking to Abbie. He, in the beginning- SM: Let me turn my tape here. Hold on one second. NC: Okay. SM: All right, I am back. NC: Okay. All right. So, there we are down in the basement coffee house with Abbie, who is David Gold's friend from college. And David asked them, "So you have done TV interviews before? And no, you have not? This is your first?" Said David, getting a big laugh from the group. "Is there anything you would like to say?" Abbie says, "Fuck." And then there is a big laugh. SM: That is my cell phone. Bear with me. I do not know why... Do not worry. Go ahead. Hold on one second. Hold on. I am going to... NC: Oh, okay. SM: I thought I turned it off. Okay, go ahead. NC: All right, we cool? Okay. So, Abbie says "Fuck." That is the first thing he says on the interview. And David asked him if he was having fun. And then first thing Abbie says is, "What is this for?" Which is the typical thing that I heard from that time forward. Almost every place I went for the next 20 years, someone asked me, "What is this for?" But anyway, he did. And he said, "What are you going to do with this after it is done?" And David said, "Well, maybe we will put it on television." And Abbie says, "Network TV?" And David says, "Yeah, what do you think about network TV?" And Abbie says, "My favorite shows are Lawrence Welk and Land of the Giants. It is the truth. I thought I was just making fun of that because they are kind of campy. But then I figured out that they're the only shows I watch, so I must like them." SM: Actually, my parents loved Lawrence Welk. NC: Oh, there you go. Right, yeah. SM: So, they would have liked Abbie. NC: And let us see. Then they went on to discuss the weatherman action. Because then Abbie did say he liked the news, so David asked him about the weatherman. He said, "What do you think about the weatherman action last night when a brick was thrown through a barbershop window?" And Abbie said, he thought that was stupid. He said, "You have to lay an action so that you have some morality on your side so you can split the ruling class. What they did unites the ruling class," he said. Then David asked them if he thought he was going to get a fair trial. And Abbie said, "I will get the usual fair trial Chicago style. They are building gallows on the third floor. Some people say that is a pretty pessimistic sign, but I do not know. There is guys practicing a drum roll." And David says, "That is a little scary." And Abbie says, "No, no, not scary until the last days, then shocking. But it's never scary. No, it is just the last day when they say guilty and you said, "What? After all this shit, three fucking months, guilty?" And the poor jury says, "Abbie, they are doing time. They're just locked up. They cannot fuck or nothing. They cannot watch TV." "It is a good state of mind to put them in for the judge, isn't it?" Asked David. "Well, that is the thing that happens when you are locked up, because all they do is have contact with government people. US Marshals are the only ones they see, so eventually they feel an important part of the government team. The judge, the past four years has had 24 jury trials, and guess how many guilties?" "How many?" "24." Everyone laughs up joyously. What else could they do. SM: Now, just from being around, that is David Cort doing that interview? NC: Yes. Yeah. SM: Is this Cort K-O-R-T or C-O-R-T? NC: C-O-R-T. SM: K? NC: C-O-R-T. SM: Oh, yeah. Is he related to Cort Furniture? NC: I do not think so. SM: Okay. Because they are a pretty well-off group. How did these guys get along? I know that obviously Abbie and Jerry Rubin were in the Yippies, but how did he get along with the Haydens and the- NC: I am really not sure. They were from different groups. There was the Students for Democratic Society. There was mobilization for Bible and the Yippies and I do not know, a couple of other factions that really, I do not think they were together seriously, or friends, great, tight friends or anything, before the convention in (19)68. SM: Did you cover other countercultural happenings during that timeframe before you moved back- NC: Yes, because then we got totally involved in that and the war was refusing to be over. And so, we did cover many demonstrations, mostly in Washington DC. I am just going to look up the- SM: Were you at the, what do you call it? The- NC: was it (19)70 or (19)71? But I will find it. SM: There was the big one in (19)69, I know. NC: No, this was after that. It was very telling. Coming up here, coming up, coming up. Come on. SM: I am going to mention just two quotes of yours too, again. This is dealing going forward to (19)92 in the formation of CamNet, but I want you to talk about the counterculture, but these are quotes from you. "We are not here to confront them. We are here to hear them. I think people are starved to be heard. Most of the time people are not being heard." And then secondly, you love this, both you and other person, Kim. "And it is not just a job. It is a way of life." This is how one defines activism in the (19)60s and (19)70s. That is me talking, because when you start talking about, and the things I have read about you and your other organizer of CamNet is that activism is a 24/7 thing. It is a seven day a week happening. It is not like volunteerism where you have two hours. And when you start talking about, "It is not just a job, it is a way of life. This is how one defines activism in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. We have to do this." And I love you have an attitude, "We have to do it." And- NC: I do not remember saying that. I am saying, "Who is that?" SM: You. NC: That is so true. SM: That is, you. That is, you and the person you worked with. NC: Judith. SM: Yes. Yeah. NC: Oh yeah. Here it is. It was 1971, one year after Kent State University demonstration where four students were shot dead by the Ohio National Guard. To commemorate that event, protestors were going to Washington to close down the government by blocking all major roads to the District of Columbia. And the Videofreex were going to document it. On April 29th, David, Davidson... I am naming these names of the people who are now Videofreex, Davidson Gelati, Chuck Kennedy, of course, Perry Tisdale, Carol Vontobel, prepared to drive down to DC to cover it. David had met Davidson on West Broadway one day during the CBS project, and Davidson had a porta packet. He had a video camera in his hand. It was very rare. So, David brought him home immediately and he joined up. It was just like that. People would just quit everything they were doing and come along. It was crazy. It was wonderful. Anyway, "In DC the Videofreex met up with a larger video collective, including a lot of kids from Antioch College in Ohio. The Mayday Collective had arranged for Crash Pad for activists." So, I say here, oh, "The Videofreex hit the street. It was loud and tear-gassy, and hovering helicopters were scattering the protestors." SM: This is on the 29th of April? NC: Yeah, this was the 1st of May. I say, "It's loud and tear... On television, president Nixon was addressing the nation." NC: On television President Nixon was addressing the nation, here is Nixon. "Some people on television may have gotten the impression that when they saw the demonstrations down at the Senate, and that Barry Goldwater's door had red paint on it, I understand, and his office was locked, and that Washington is somewhat in a state of siege. But well, let me just make one thing very clear, that Congress is not intimidated, the President is not intimidated, this government is going to go forward. It does not mean that we are not going to listen to those who come peacefully, but those who come and break the law will be prosecuted, the full extent of the law. In the meantime, however, I as president, have my obligation to consider what they say and all the other things that I know, and then make the decision that I think will be in their best interest as well as the best interest of the people of the country." And then the police are shouting over loudspeakers. "Attention, attention, this is the Metropolitan Police Department. Everyone must leave the area immediately. Those who do not leave the area in violation of the law and will be arrested." Helicopters are landing, military troops are swarming the streets, sirens. A man is dragged off into the bushes and clubbed by two DC cops, the young boy is pulled from his bicycle and shoved into a paddy wagon by police who trampled his bike in the process. David got clubbed in the knee by a cop for shooting video. A young woman medic wearing a headband and white T-shirt with a red Cross painted on it spoke to David's video camera while the people were being arrested and dragged off all around her. She was a modern-day Clara Barton on the front lines, naive, innocent, brave. "Why are you staying here?" David asked. "Oh, I am here because I ought to stay and get busted with my people. Some of the medics are going to go behind the pig lines and use pig tactics and do what the pigs say, I am not going to, I am going to stay and get busted with my people. And when somebody is getting beat on the ground I am going to stop the pig from beating him so I can help him. I am not going to say, oh dear sir with a silver badge, can I help you? Can I treat my people now? Fuck that shit, I am not going to do none of that." And that is how the kids were at that thing. SM: Wow. Yeah, the intensity was... Back in sixty when you are talking about what happened with the Black Panthers, some of the people I have interviewed were very supportive of groups like SDS when they became the Weathermen, or when the American Indian Movement went toward violence at Wounded Knee, or when violence ever became part of any of the other movements, that is when it turned people off. NC: Well, the violence, it turns people off. Violence? What about the wars, and what about the government's violence? Yes, it is a terrible thing, but it is also a reality. SM: You think it hurt the Black Panthers though? Because there were people that thought they were violent. NC: Well, something hurt the Black Panthers, they are gone. I mean, there are new Black Panthers now, but I do not really know what kind of effect [inaudible]. SM: Well, I think the old Black Panthers do not like the new ones. But again, you and Judith Binder created CamNet. NC: Yes. SM: What movements or events brought you together in 1992? NC: Oh, well, I was living in LA, and I was working on The 90's, which was basically a larger group of the same people from the beginning for me. And it was based in Chicago, Tom Weinberg was the mover and shaker, he was the guy who got the money, he got the money from the MacArthur Foundation and some other places to put this together, and the sensibility of the videos was the same or even more so. And I met Judith downtown at the Wallenboyd Theater. I met Paul when I moved to Venice, and Paul was doing a show down at the Wallenboyd Theater, and Judith was producing other shows down there. And then we went out to dinner one night after a show, I had not known her. You know how you were sitting at a big table and there was a bunch of people? And she was sitting on one side of me, and I did not know her. And I overheard her saying something like, "I have so many videos that I have to shoot, I do not know what I am going to do. I do not have enough time, and I do not know what I am going to..." And I turned I said, " Videos, you are shooting videos?" And she said, "Yes." And she apparently had been doing it. She was a native LA, so she knew everybody in LA, and was putting together a lot of tape. And I said, "Well, you must come to Venice immediately." She came down there and she brought her tape, and we saw that we were doing the same thing. And so, I hired her to help me with The 90's, and after The 90's was over we stuck together and continued our quest. SM: I got some questions in a couple minutes about that program, The 90's. But I got here, you came together in (19)92, and then how... NC: We came together actually before that, but we came together and got CamNet going in (19)92. I think it was, or (19)91. SM: How did these movements that were taking place at this time... I am talking about the ones when you were at Videofreex, and then you moved off to different areas before CamNet. How did the development of these movements in the late (19)60s and (19)70s, which is the end... Well, obviously the women's movement formed, the gay and lesbian Movement after Stonewall in (19)69. You had the Native American movement, which is the AIM organization taking over Alcatraz in (19)69, through Wounded Knee in (19)73. You had Earth Day in 1970. You had the civil rights movement that was going through changes with the Black Panthers, and then the anti-war movement was continuing. So, you have got all these movements, did you cover all these movements, and did you see a closeness between the movements back then? NC: I do not know if I saw a closeness between the movements. I will tell you what, I do not know the answer to that. Everything was happening at once, it is true, it all happened, I did not know all the people that you just mentioned. But what is the question again? SM: It is basically, did you have a chance to cover all of these movements? NC: I did some things, it was not all politics either. It was arts, and it was sometimes just people who might not have been particularly activists or political. But we did a long series called Working based on Studs Terkel. SM: Oh yeah, great book. NC: So, we did a lot of things based on going to work with people, just ordinary people in all lines of work and all places. So, they were not necessary political or activists, but just being with them and spending that time, and seeing how people deal with their lives. The personal did become political to me, and I saw everything in sort of a larger sense. SM: Well, the people who write about the history of the anti-war movement and other movements say that only between five and 15 percent of the boomer generation was even involved in activism, and 85 percent were not. NC: That is right. I do not know what the boomers are, I do not even know what that is. SM: Boomer generation are people born between 1946 and 1964. NC: Right. So that does not mean anything to me, because I did not consider myself a boomer. Well, I am not really, I am a little older than that. But I do not think that just necessarily being born in those years would make you a part of the movements that happened while you were living. SM: Well, a lot of the people that were involved in leadership roles were born between (19)40 and (19)46. NC: That is me, yeah. SM: And I know Abbie Hoffman was, and I think Jerry Rubin was. But a lot of people have had problems with just the concept of generations like the Greatest Generation, which Tom Brokaw talked about. And then you got the boomer generation, you got the silent generation, you got Generation X, and then now you got the millennials. So, you have issues with those kinds of definitions? NC: Yeah, I am not concerned with that, because it is about what the issues are, what matters to you, or what becomes important to you. SM: When you were doing these things, like interviewing people linked to the Studs Terkel book, and people who were working, this was in the early (19)70s? NC: Yes, all through the (19)70s. SM: Did any of them ever say that any of these world events were having an effect on their lives, or they just talked about putting bread on the table every day? NC: That is right. I do not remember bringing up anything outside of their experience, because what I was doing was living their experience. SM: Right. And with Videofreex and CamNet, this is something I think you made reference to earlier, you are a female, and a lot of the problems in the late (19)60s is that most of these movements that I mentioned were sexist. That many women had to leave the anti-war movement and civil rights movements, because women were placed in secondary roles. And I know that in the gay and lesbian movement, it was the same thing, because I have talked to people. And I think in some of the other movements, except the environmental movement, I think it is similar. Did you sense sexism in the anti-war movement and the civil rights movements of the late (19)60s and (19)70s? NC: Oh, totally, yes. If I had been doing film, I do not know what I would have done, because of whole... Because video started when the women's movement started, and you were not allowed, it just was not acceptable to be sexist, and they were so very conscious of it. But in the meantime, film up until that point, and any filmmakers, even at the beginning, film collectives, definitely they did not have that thing going, because the men already knew how to run the film camera, and they already knew all that other stuff, and the woman might have just been learning. But with video, we all started at the same place, it was a new technology, it was a new camera, no one had ever seen it before, we all had to learn it together. So, when we learned it, it was not a question of the men learning it first and then deciding which women could do it. So, it just was my good fortune to run into this new tech, and all our boys were very good. SM: Did you see it in the Yippies, or even in the hippies? [inaudible]. NC: I am sure, I did not know the Yippies very well, but when you read about them, you do not hear too much about women. Although lately I have met a lot of women who did a lot of that stuff then and were not noticed. I know them now, and I know they are very powerful and smart, and they probably made a lot of things happen, that it was never known. SM: This next question just deals with periods of the times when boomers have been alive. And again, forget just thinking about the boomer generation now, these are just periods after World War II, and what they mean to you personally, I asked the same question to Paul. I will ask broken down into parts here. In your eyes, briefly describe how you would define the following periods, and the first one is the period between 1946 and 1960? NC: Between 1946 and 1960. SM: 1960, what was it like to live in America in that time from your perspective? NC: It was great, it was wonderful. Oh, your daddy was rich and your mom was good-looking. I did not have too many problems during those years, but I mean, of course the war was over, the cars were rolling off. I grew up in Detroit, Detroit now if you look, it is in the news how terrible it is. They're going to raise the whole town and put in farmland, there is nothing left in Detroit, the culture is gone, everything is gone. But between 1946 and 1960, the best years for Detroit. And in 1960 I turned 20, so I guess I was beginning to be an adult at the end of those times. So, I did not have any problems, I did not have to earn any money, and went to college, and I had a convertible car, and I drove anywhere I wanted to. SM: Did you have any issues with the late forties and (19)50s? NC: I am trying to think if I had any, I was just a child. But we were Democrats, and we never could win an election. But now looking back, I think Eisenhower was not so bad in comparison to what come after him. SM: What did you think of the period 1961 to 1970? NC: Oh, the (19)60s was just great, everything happened to me, my eyes were opened. I mean, I saw what a terrible world it was, and yet it was so very exciting, and I wanted to know everything. And I took a lot of chances, I had a lot of adventures, I took some drugs, met a lot of people, I moved around, and by the time 1970 happened I was clear about my past. So that was a very informative part of my life, everything happened then. And on the other end of the (19)60s, I ended up kind of feeling as if I knew who I was, and what I thought about things, and what I wanted to do. SM: Well, that gets right into 1971 to 1980. NC: Yes, those are my hippie years. It was just great, traveled everywhere. The camera took me everywhere, the camera was my ticket to adventure, thrills and chills, I really enjoyed it. I had just one health issue in the (19)70s. SM: How about the 1980s? 1981 to 1990. NC: Right. Well, in 1978 I moved to Woodstock, and in 1984 I moved to California. So, the beginning of the (19)80s was kind of not that exciting for me, because I had already done so much video. But I moved to Woodstock and put together this little access TV station, which was a lot of fun, and I taught a lot of people how to do it. But then I was not so excited about doing it with them anymore, I wanted something else. And so, I left it with them to do, and started over again in California. When I came to California, I had been working for so many years at a not-for-profit company. I realized that I did not have anything to show for it, I had to borrow $700 to fly to California with my duffel bag. SM: How about the (19)90s? 1991 to 2000. NC: Yes, and that was the Venice Beach. And then it was going back and forth from Chicago and traveling around, putting together the show for PBS, and then doing CamNet out of the back bedroom of our little house in Venice. SM: Wow, and how about 2001 to right now? NC: Right, in the end was 2000, the beginning of 2001, Paul and I moved to the desert. And let us see, I am trying to think. Well, it has gone so fast, it has gone by so quickly. I learned how to cook, I learned how to be a homemaker. We bought a house, which neither of us had ever owned a home before, so we have a home. I still shoot video, but I shoot it on a flip video, have you ever seen those things? I mean, it is the size of a pack of cigarettes, and it holds a couple of hours of... And it is not tape, everything is digital. So, I carry it in my pocket, if something is moving that interests me, I tape it. I do not tape it, I record it, and then I put it up on YouTube. So, I can put up anything I want at any time that is interesting to me. And there is a lot of protests and some things, and we're fighting to legalize marijuana and other things locally around here, that is kind of fun. SM: I am trying to get an interview with Dennis Peron, do you know? NC: Oh, definitely. SM: Yeah. Well, I had an interview with him and he was sick. Well, he emailed me and said he was sick about 15 minutes before I was supposed to call him, so I got to find out how he's doing, because that was three or four weeks ago. NC: Yeah. So that is good, and I also take hundreds of pictures every week, photos. SM: Are the Videofreex and the CamNet, are they all going someplace for posterity and history? NC: Yes, the Videofreex is at the Video Data Bank in Chicago. It's part of the Chicago Institute of Art. SM: Very good. NC: And it is so interesting, because I just went there a couple of years ago. And they have all of our tapes that were in Lanesville that were on shelves with all our handwriting on the side spines, and on shelves exactly the way that they were, they have them there. And I am looking down there, I say, "Oh, there is me playing Santa Claus." Just everything, it is amazing. And the Videofreex have, as I said earlier, put together a partnership. We are trying to restore a lot of these things, which many of these tapes may not be able to be played more than once, they are growing mold and other things. So, each tape has to be dealt with individually, and it costs some money to put them back in shape. So, we are raising money, and people and filmmakers are looking for this information, and are interested in having these tapes restored. SM: Important for history. NC: So yes, that is happening. And the other later stuff is being kept in Chicago also with a project called Media Burn, and they also have thousands of tapes from the (19)70s, (19)80s. SM: So, everything you are doing the rest of your life are actually going to go there as well? NC: Yes. SM: Okay, good. NC: Yeah. And pretty much a lot of it is digitized, and you can go there and look at hundreds of hours of videos at Media Burn, and can see all that. And there's even a lot of Lanesville TV there. SM: This is a question; how would you respond to critics who say that a lot of the problems in our society today go back to the (19)60s and (19)70s when morality and ethics seemed to be wanting. And it led directly to the following, expansive drug culture, sexual mores dwindled, the divorce rate increased, more people became dependent on government welfare, more irresponsible behavior, sense of violence in our society, a lack of respect for authority, and the breakup of the American family. And then you even had Barney Frank, a Democrat, who in his book speaking frankly, saying that the Democratic Party could not survive if it did not denounce the anti-war people linked to George McGovern in 1972. For the Democratic Party to survive, it must say goodbye to the anti-war people. Just your thoughts on the critics of this era, and the critics are people like Newt Gingrich, George Will, Governor Huckabee, it is conservatives, but there are some liberals that say it too. NC: Well, that whole thing you just said, I think that is total bullshit, a hundred percent bullshit. So, all the things that you mentioned, those are all the good things that happened, and anything good that is happening now happened because, go back down on that list. I say the opposite. SM: Okay, and why would you say that? NC: Okay. Well, what was the first thing on that list? [inaudible]. SM: Drug culture. NC: Drug use? SM: Yes. NC: Oh, please. It expanded your mind, it opened up your mind, it made you smarter and wiser. And I disregard that, I think that... SM: The divorce rate. NC: Divorce rate? Well, if they got divorced, that means that they should be divorced. SM: Sexual mores. NC: Sexual mores? Please, let us forget that puritan ethic. We do not want that. SM: Government welfare. NC: Government welfare? Well, I really wish there was more of it, we deserve to have it. SM: Irresponsible behavior. NC: Irresponsible behavior? And more of it. SM: Violence. NC: Violence? Well, violence breeds violence, that is true. I am for peace a hundred percent. I do not like violence, but I do not think it is the fault of the previous mentioned things that brings it on. SM: Breakup of the American family. NC: All right. SM: Lack of respect... NC: I do not think that is true though, because the families I know are not broken up, and the families I know their kids are brilliant and fabulous. And all the kids in my family are just superb, and all my friends' kids turned out great. SM: How about the... What was it here? I guess, the violence, lack of respect for authority. NC: Definitely, let us not respect authority. SM: And how about Barney Frank? NC: Barney Frank wants to get elected, he wants to keep his job. Nobody's perfect, I think he is probably a nice guy. SM: Yeah. Could you define some of the positive characteristics of the boomer generation based on those you have known and seen over the years? I know you cannot talk about 74 million people, but just some of the positives or negatives within the boomers that you have known, or some of their characteristics. NC: Well, I mean, everybody that I grew up with is them, right? SM: If they were born after the war. NC: Yeah, my sister was born the day after the war. She is so smart and brilliant, my sister, I wish she was president. I do not know. [inaudible]. Oh, give me a hint. SM: Well, that is up to you. Some people say they just cannot talk about 74 million people. NC: Well, I can talk about 70... I do not know, the boomer generation as opposed to... Well, the boomer generation, they had a good chance at it. They had a good chance, all the things that were happening between 1946 and now, because they are still alive, just a great time to be alive. SM: Was there a generation gap in your family between your parents and you? NC: Oh, yes. SM: Explain that. NC: Yeah. I think my parents were freaking out when I took off in the Volkswagen bus to drive to... I mean, because it was a little late for me to do that, but I did take some time off in the (19)60s to drive across the country and do some things that made them very worried. And they were just a little bit worried about in the early days, in the CBS project, they were kind of afraid for me, like my niece has just joined the Peace Corps and is going to Cameroon. "Right, that would be [inaudible]." If I did not know her, and I would say that. But my first reaction was, "Oh my God, where's that? Who lives there? What do you have to do?" I mean, I was afraid for her. SM: Yeah. I have always said one positive, this is about you, but I have always said one positive, is you could hitchhike back in the (19)60s and the early (19)70s and go across the country and not worry about being murdered. Today you cannot hitchhike because you would probably end up dead. NC: That is right. So, I am afraid for her, but that is not rational because she's doing what she wants to do, and she is going to have a great adventure. And so, then my parents actually realized that at a certain point, when I said, "I do not want Nancy to go off with these crazy hippies, where people might be dangerous." And they finally said, "Well, that is what I do not want to do. Nancy wants to do that." SM: We always think of the generation gap as between parents and children, was there a generation gap within the generation, that is of boomers? Those who served in Vietnam or served in the military, and those who avoided service in Vietnam, would you consider that a generation gap? NC: Yeah, I would agree. I think so, that was tough. SM: Did you have any experiences with Videofreex interviewing Vietnam vets on their return, and their feelings toward the end of the war? NC: Yes, very much so, and also with the Vietnam Vets Against the War. And when we went to both political conventions in 1972, we went to the McGovern Convention and we went to the second Nixon, they were both in Miami Beach. SM (02:34:05): Can you hold it right there? I got to- NC: Yeah. Yes, I did not mention this group TV-TV, which stands for, what did it call? Top Value Television that was put together by a producer name of Michael Shamberg, who is big movie producer now. But we started out in New York together. There was Video Freaks, there was RainDance Corporation, there was People's Video Theater, and there was Global Village, were the four big video groups in New York City during the time of the Video Freaks. And RainDance Corporation was run by Michael Shamberg and was a very-very intellectual guy and put out a publication called Radical Software in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s. Very smart guy. And he put together this video production group to cover the political conventions in 1972. And the video freaks marched with the Vietnam Veterans against the war, to both these conventions. SM: Ron Kovic, I believe was... NC: Ron Kovic had lots of videos. Ron, what a fantastic person. Really powerful. SM: I think that Bobby Mueller was another one, was not he? Bobby Mueller? NC: Bobby Mueller, but I do not know him. But video that we shot of Ron Kovic on the floor of the convention in 1972 at the Republican Convention Oliver Stone took that exact scene and recreated exactly in Born on the 4th of July. Tom Cruise. You can look at that movie and you can see him saying, stop the bombing. Stop the killing on the floor of the... SM: Do you remember some of the other Vietnam vets who you got to know? NC: Well, Frank Cavestani, he was also a video maker and also had been in the war and was a member of that group. SM: Did you ever have a chance to meet Jane Fonda? NC: I do not know Jane Fonda, no. I passed by her here and there at events, but I never met her or talked to her. I think Paul knows her, but I do not know. SM: In your own words, what was it like to be young in the (19)60s and (19)70s? Has there been a time like that for the young ever since, in your opinion? And in describing this period, give three examples that you remember of being young that stand out, could be good or bad. NC: Three examples of being young. Okay. Wait. SM: Good or bad. NC: Okay. How did you start the question? SM: In your own words, what was it like to be young in the (19)60s and (19)70s? NC: Well, it was just great, good luck, good fortune. And you know what, also for that other thing about sexual morals and that was, we did not have AIDS then. The kids today, they have the internet, they have digital, and they have a lot of things that move along more quickly and get you satisfied a lot faster. But they also have, that comes along with it, some terrible realities like AIDS and other things that are not so much fun. Well, and the music is not as great as it used to be, but I am old. Yeah, I think that being young at that time, that was... A lot of kids today, they wish they were... A lot of people say to me, they wish they would have been alive then. SM: You have had so many experiences in your life. NC: Many. SM: But are there three that you can remember that it was, wow, am I glad I am young now, or Geez, this is rough. This is a bad scene here, and I am a young person. Any just anecdotes that stand out? NC: I do not know. There was a sense of freedom, it is hard to describe. Well, there's the thing about money. We do not talk about money. I never made any. I could say that that is the bummer of the whole thing is I ended up here with 4 cents. SM: Well, that is a lot of people thought of the (19)60s money was secondary. NC: Worse than secondary. Hated it. Anything that had to do with money, I had no respect for money or people who liked or had or wanted to make money, no respect for that. Now I do not feel quite that way. SM: Yeah. And some of the richest people in the world today are Boomers. In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? NC: Yeah, the (19)60s. Well, the (19)60s began for me, I am not going to say (19)65, even though for most people it probably did. But I was very straight working in the theater in New York at the time, was thinking about politics. I noticed that there was something happening at Columbia University, and a lot of people were protesting. Then I became much aware, that was like (19)67, (19)68, I became very aware of the counterculture, which I considered to be the (19)60s. And I think for me, maybe it was a short period of time, although it seems like it was so huge. But Kent State kind of killed it, all the goodness of it all. SM: Right. NC: And although I lived the (19)60s all during the (19)70s. For some people it might have ended, but for me it maybe ended around (19)78, I would say, because cause of my lifestyle. SM: Was there a watershed moment? NC: When it was over? SM: No. Was there a watershed moment that you feel for you was the most important happening during that timeframe? Maybe not only for you, but for the young people of the Boomer generation? It is a two-part question basically. NC: For me, a watershed, I do not know. I do not know the answer. I could... SM: Some people it was the Kennedy assassination. NC: Oh, right. Yeah. That was bad. SM: And when you were talking about theaters, you were in New York in the late (19)60s, were you caught up in the theater of Hair and Jesus Christ Superstar, because those were the two? NC: Yes, but I was not playing on Broadway. I played in cabaret theater, musical theater and cabaret. And I played in some Off Broadway, and I did radio shows, and I did TV commercials. I had an agent, my agent would send me for the best gig. Oh, I had a watershed back then, I suppose, because somebody sent me some acid from California when I was still working at theater. I had smoked pot, but I was never into psychedelics particularly. But I did not know it would work. It was like a little piece of [inaudible]. It was nothing. It was a joke. I just put it on my tongue. I forgot about it. I thought it was a joke and then I started to trip. And it was that day that I had an audition at Gray Advertising on Third Avenue for a big commercial for Dial soap. This was important. I was tripping, but I knew I had to go. And I went on the subway and everybody's face was melting and wild animals on the train. SM: Oh my God. NC: It was crazy. And I found the place, and I went up there and I read the ad. I was waiting for my chance to read for these advertising executives to see if I could get this commercial. And it was so disgusting that I quit the business. SM: Oh. NC: I gave the script back. They wanted me to take a shower and feeling really not so good feeling. And then you get in the shower with this bar of soap and it makes you feel so great and exhilarated. And I did not want to do it, I do not want to do what they tell me. And I said, well, wait a second. I am an actor and my job is to do what the director tells me. And I was sitting there in the waiting room there next to a woman who looked just like me, who was reading the same script. I said, no, I do not want to do this. I just did not know what I was going to do really, but I just handed the script back to the receptionist and said, oh, I do not like this. And I left. And I went outside onto Third Avenue, and I was like exhilarated and thrilled. And I said, oh, I just quit showing business. This is the greatest moment in my life. And it was maybe a year later that I got this job as the assistant to the producer at CBS after not having worked in show business as it was. SM: You would have been real good as a backdrop for 60 Minutes. You would have been. That is right up your alley. NC: Yeah, that is true. Except that was just really too straight for me, I could never go back to something like that. SM: Why did the war in Vietnam end, in your opinion? NC: Why did it end? SM: Mm-hmm. NC: Because we lost I think. We lost the war. Us lost the war. SM: How important were the college students in ending the war, in your opinion? NC: Well, I think they had something to do with it, because you cannot tell somebody that they are going to be drafted. Talk about quitting show business. You have to do what they tell you and go where they say and go and get killed. That is why they protested. That is why we do not have so much protest now, I think, because we have a professional army rather than a citizen army. SM: Do you remember exactly where you were when you heard that JFK was killed? NC: Yes. SM: Could you describe that? NC: Sure. I was working at the Vanguard Playhouse in Detroit. It was my first day off without a rehearsal because I was working in repertory theater. You do the show at night, and then you're rehearsing all day the next day for the next show, but then you go. But we had just opened a show, and I did not have any rehearsal that day. Living in a little apartment by myself. And I had just made myself a nice plate of asparagus and was watching a movie on TV with Betty Davis on it. I do not know the name of the movie because I did not see the beginning of it. There was tension, and it was black and white, very noir, very, very exciting. And she was walking with tension down the stairway. Someone was knocking on the door, she was about to open the door, and they cut away. Then they showed what was happening. They never cut back to anything for a week. They played for a week. And I was hysterical, crying, what did I know? I really loved him. I thought I really loved him. And I called up the director at the theater. I said, [inaudible] we cannot do the show tonight, we cannot go on. Everything is canceled. Everything is closed. No one is doing anything. It is all over. Everything is over. The world is over. He said, Nancy, just make sure you get here by call time for our show tonight. I said, no, how can we? How can we? He said, we have subscribers. They want theater. Whether they come or not, we are doing the show. The show must go on. And that is what it was. The show must go on. He actually said that. SM: And John Kennedy, if he were alive, would have told you to do it. NC: Maybe so, that is true. And then afterwards, I was singing in a club. After the show, I would go down to Momo's Cocktail Lounge where I was singing with a little trio, jazz stuff. And it was very not crowded. It was very, very glum and dreary over at the piano bar. And then as it got late, midnight, one o'clock, two o'clock in the morning, people started coming in. Just to be, we were there together with each other. SM: Have you been to the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, DC? NC: The what? SM: Have you been to the wall in Washington DC? NC: I have not. SM: Oh. Because I just want to know what your initial thoughts were on the wall? NC: But it is beautiful, and I think it is amazing. Better than a statue or some shit. SM: Since you have not been there it is hard to say. But if you are in a dream, say, and you are visiting the wall, what do you think your first reaction would be upon seeing it or being near it? NC: Well, I probably would go and touch it. I remember once I was at the Western wall in Jerusalem, approaching that, and my first instinct was to press my body up against it. I do not know why, but I did. But I feel like I might have the same reaction. SM: Was the generation born between (19)46 and (19)64, or the people born around it, which would include, I call pre-Boomers like you and Paul and Abby. I think you're all part of it. Richie Haven said to me once, he was born in (19)40, between (19)40 and I think 1940. He said, I am a Boomer. I am a Boomer in attitude. And I am not of the greatest generation or the silent generation. I am a Boomer. NC: Yeah. I think of him as that. SM: Yeah. The question I am asking is, do you think that the attitude that this generation, that they were the most unique generation in American history. What are your thoughts when you hear that? Because a lot of young people thought it when they were young and they thought they were going to change the world. They were going to bring peace to the world, and racism, sexism, homophobia. And people look at the world today and they say, man, the Boomers have failed. NC: Right. Well, I did not think the Boomers thought they were going to change the world, now that you mention it. It just happened to them, that a lot of things changed during that time. Not too many people I know told me at a young age they felt they were going to change the world. SM: So, this attitude of uniqueness, you do not think. NC: Well, I think it is okay if some people think that, but sure, why not? SM: Has the idealism died within the Boomer generation for most? NC: Probably. SM: Yeah. NC: I think there is still idealism in the new generations. I think the new generation, my little Sarah [inaudible] who was born in Lanesville at the commune, she is a physician, she is doctor. And actually two of our girls are physicians. And they study all kinds of things like new world planning. This new generation, I have hope for them, I think that they can fix things. They really care. What do you call people who are between 25 and 35 now? SM: I think their generation Xer's. NC: Okay. The kids that we raised, that we know are a lot of generation Xer's, and they are smart. SM: The ones that were born between (19)65 and (19)81 are Generation Xer's. The ones from (19)82 on are millennials. So, which... NC: I do not know too much about the millennials. The Xer's I think they can do something. SM: The materials and literature I have is that Xer's do not get along with Boomers, but that is another story. The two issues here, very important. The first one is a label that is been put on many people in the generation is they're a generation that does not trust. Is that a good or a negative? NC: Trust. That the Boomers do not trust? SM: Yeah, it is a quality, that they are not a very trusting generation. And they may pass... NC: Oh, I do not trust anybody. I used to trust people, but I do not trust anybody anymore. SM: A lot of this lack of trust was because many of them saw the leaders that had failed them or lied to them, whether it be President Johnson on the Gulf of Tonkin. NC: Sure. SM: Watergate with Richard Nixon. Of course, you do not know about Agnew. NC: All of it. SM: McNamara and the lies about the numbers game. And so there's a lot of lying and lack of trust. So... NC: That is right. And I do not think it is any different now. It is just worse and worse and worse. Trust fewer. And I do not trust, maybe there is like three people I trust. SM: Well, the two things, one, I had a professor once who said in an introduction into psychology, if you cannot trust others in your life, you will not be a success. And then if you are a political science major, the first thing you will learn is a healthy democracy means that people do not trust their government. And by not trusting their government, it shows that liberty is alive and well. NC: Yeah. Right. That is both ends there. SM: The other thing, and this is very important, and it is a question of healing. I took a group of students to Washington to meet former Senator Musky, who was at the (19)68 convention. He was a Democratic vice-presidential nominee. NC: Wonderful guy. SM: And it was before he died, and it was in the middle (19)90s. And the students came up with this question. They thought he would respond based on what was happening in America in 1968. And this is the question. Due to the divisions that were taking place at the time, between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war, those who were against the war, those who supported the troops, those who were against the troops, and all the violence that was happening in the inner cities because there were a lot of riots and burnings like at Watts, and after Dr. King died. Do you feel that this generation, which is the Boomer generation, will go to its grave when their time comes similar to the civil war generation, not healing from the divisions that tore them apart? Do you think that is an issue within the post-World War II generation? NC: What did he say? SM: I want to hear what you said first. NC: Oh, well, I think healing is possible. And I think to a certain extent there has been some healing between those factions that you mentioned. Maybe it's wishful thinking. But no, I think there has been some healing from women's movement and I think between the races, possibly, at least in this country. No, I think there is, and can be healing between these facts. SM: Senator Musky did not even respond to 1968. He did not even mention it in his response. He said, we have not healed since the Civil War because of the racial issues that are still present in our society. And he said he had just watched the Ken Burns Civil War series, and it just brought tears to his eyes because almost an entire generation was wiped out. 430,000 men were killed in that war, not including the ones that were hurt. And it was a devastating war, and that people did go to their graves not healing in the Civil War generation. NC: Yes, the Civil War is unforgivable. SM: But he did not even mention 1968. In other words, he was saying it was a non-issue. NC: Yeah. SM: And some people have said that I should rephrase the question and simply say, those who fought in the war and those who were in the anti-war movement, that would make it much more relevant a question. NC: Oh, well, I do not know. I do not know what people are thinking about that. The people who were in the war and the people who were not in the war. SM: Any other thoughts on that? NC: No-no. SM: Since you were in the video area, there were a lot of movies in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s that kind of stood out. They kind of showed the (19)60s and the (19)70s for what they were all about. Are there movies that you feel, or if someone a hundred years from now was to put on a whole group of movies that would really define the Boomer generation, what would those movies be? NC: We are talking about regular movies alone or something? SM: Yeah. Regular movies. NC: Movies are a big disappointment, especially if they are trying to make some be kind of realistic when they are not. SM: Are there any movies from the (19)50s, the (19)60s, and the (19)70s, or even the (19)80s, that when you see them or watch them, wow, that is really emblematic of the time they were made? NC: Oh, emblematic when they were made. (19)50s. Well, I am not saying I like these movies. If I mention them, it does not mean I like them. But I was just reading this morning about Dennis Hopper's movie about, what was the name of that? SM: Easy Rider? NC: Easy Rider. That was a (19)60s movie. Right? SM: Mm-hmm. NC: Okay. (19)70s. I am saying that it was about what was going on, and it sort of was and artistic in a certain way. Okay. Movies. I watch movies every day. We watch Flickers almost every day. We watch... SM: How about, can I mention something? NC: They are so forgettable. Yes. Do tell- SM: The Graduate. NC: The Graduate. Yes. Yes. The Graduate. SM: And another one, Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice was... NC: Bob and Carol Ted and Alice is a terrible movie. What was that supposed to be saying? Was supposed to be saying what? That we could all sleep together. SM: Yeah. Then of course, you have got the movies like Shaft in the (19)70s. NC: Shaft. Right. And Shaft is like that... SM: Saturday Night Fever. NC: ... [inaudible] exploited this. SM: Saturday Night Fever, which the beginning of the disco. NC: Saturday Night Fever. I enjoyed that film. SM: There has been a lot of good movies on Vietnam from Apocalypse Now to A Deer Hunter, Taxi Driver. I mean the... NC: Taxi river. You got them all. I would say, yeah. Those are the me memorable films. It is true. For me, I do not think about them. SM: But in the (19)50s, you got to look back at the James Dean movies because of The Rebel. NC: The Rebel. SM: The kind of gangs, before we had that was the (19)50s. Okay. The other thing here, I am now to the section where I just want you to, what did the following mean to you? That you do not have to have any long descriptions, just immediate reactions to it. NC: Okay. SM: What does the Wall mean to you? It could just be a sentence. NC: The wall? SM: Yeah. The Vietnam Memorial. NC: It means a lot of people died for nothing. SM: Watergate? NC: Watergate. Watergate. Watergate. Oh, Watergate. The first thing I think of is Fuck Nixon. SM: That is all I need. Woodstock? NC: Woodstock, of course. Well, Woodstock changed my life. Really. It did. Even though I could not get there because the freeway was too full. SM: How about the Summer of Love? NC: Summer of Love. Oh, I did not participate in the Summer of Love. It was just right before I became a love person. Although I did watch them from the Plaza Hotel where I was having brunch. I saw the them in the park across by having a good time. SM: Did that song, Are You Going to San Francisco wear some flowers in your hair, did that influence you at all? NC: No. SM: Okay. How about Freedom Summer in 1964? NC: Freedom Summer. Yes. That was extremely important, right? I am not sure why. SM: That is when the people went down south for voting. NC: Yes. Oh yes, please. Yeah. That was very good. I was working in the theater and I did not think too much about it, but I knew it was big. SM: How about the free speech movement in Berkeley? NC: Yes. Free speech, the most important thing. Yes. SM: Kent State and Jackson State? NC: Well, Kent State and Jackson State, both just, it was the worst thing because it was true. It was true. It was truly happening. SM: How about Columbia? NC: Columbia. SM: (19)68. NC: Yeah. I remember Columbia. Although again, I was not involved, but I got caught up in one of their protests up town one time in a taxi. I thought it was pretty scary. It was just really the beginning. It was before the big push. SM: Right. How about the year 1968? NC: Year 1968, I dropped out. That is the year I dropped out. That was between the acid trip at the advertising agency and my job at CBS, where I traveled across the country in a Volkswagen bus... across the country in a Volkswagen bus. And I was not thinking about the world other than my own, in front of my own eyes. SM: How about 1975? NC: 1975? SM: That is the year the helicopter went off the roof in Saigon. NC: Oh, the end of the war ish. Yeah. Whoa, long overdue. SM: Chicago eight. NC: Chicago eight. The greatest. The greatest, how should I say it? It was a big, big entertainment, cute. I loved it. SM: How about Tet? NC: Who? SM: Tet. T-E-T. NC: Oh, the Tet. The Tet. Oh, the Tet. SM: Tet in Vietnam. NC: Yeah. Yeah. That was what year was that? SM: That was in 1968. NC: Yeah. SM: Some people say it is the beginning of the end for Johnson, so. NC: Yeah. Well, yeah. At least that. SM: Hippies, just the term hippies. NC: Love hippies. Love the hippies. SM: How about yippies? NC: Love the yippies. SM: With more emphasis. How about the- NC: Yeah. I have got my own personal hippie yippie. SM: Yeah, with Paul's unbelievable. You know something, I have interviewed people that know him. He has got so many people that respect him with a capital R. NC: You bet. SM: And there are people that I have interviewed that are not only friends of his, but critics of his, but the worst thing that they come up is genuine, real, and respected. NC: That is right. SM: And boy, he is a tremendous person. I read his biography. It is a great book. NC: It is. SM: The term counterculture. NC: Yeah, counterculture. That is what we needed and that is what we got. SM: Now these are just going back to the (19)50s now. You were younger. What is your perception of the McCarthy hearings? NC: McCarthy hearings was great television, for one of the first live television experiences that we had as a family. And it was remarkable in that way. SM: The Cuban Missile Crisis. NC: Cuban Missile Crisis, scary. That was really scary. Everyone was scared. But I had rehearsals and I could not be concerned, but I noticed all around me, people were very worried that it was, we were going to get nuked or something. SM: The Gulf of Tonkin. NC: The Gulf of Tonkin. I do not know. SM: That was the thing that started the Vietnam War. NC: Yeah. No, I do not. SM: March on Washington, 1963. NC: Yeah, a beautiful thing that is gave you hope. SM: Black Power. NC: Black Power definitely had to happen, had to have it. SM: Black Panthers. NC: Same there. SM: Students for Democratic Society. NC: Yes. Well, they did not have a very good sense of humor, I do not think, but they were very, very serious students for a democratic society. I do not know them too well. SM: The Weathermen. NC: The Weathermen. Oh, yeah. They blew up the house next door to my friend on 11th Street. SM: Yeah. Dustin Hoffman lived nearby. I remember that he used to go, he went over and was looking at it. They had him within- NC: Next door blew. I had to move out of their house because the wall was fucked up because the house next door was blown up. SM: Wow. NC: The Weathermen. Really, what were they thinking? I could have never done anything like that. SM: The American Indian movement. NC: Yes, very important. Please, we need it so much still. SM: And of course, they are known for Alcatraz, taking it over there. NC: Yes. SM: Stonewall. NC: Stonewall. Yes, we had it. That came finally. SM: (19)69. NC: And that made a big, big difference. And that really, I think, got that movement going big time. SM: Earth Day. NC: Earth Day was- SM: 1970. NC: Much respect in the beginning. I remember the first one. I think we have tape of that. Plenty of good tape for the first Earth Day. SM: Did you interview Gaylord Nelson? NC: I did not personally, but I think there might be some stuff there. There might be some stuff. SM: You may not know that, again, I got to know him quite well and before he died, and I interviewed his daughter. If there is any tapes of Gaylord Nelson, this is just for, to put it on the back of your brain here. His archives at the University of Wisconsin are being put together now since he died, and I am sending all my pictures that I have taken of him when he came to our campus. So, if there is anything in the life of Gaylord Nelson. NC: I will look around for that. SM: Yeah. Tia Nelson, the daughter, who is now one of the top environmental leaders in Wisconsin. So, I would let them know that they exist, because then they would be going right to the archives for students. NC: All right. Let me put the word out, see if I can find any. SM: Okay. How about the Peace Corps? NC: The Peace Corps. I would never consider the Peace Corps, but as I mentioned, my darling niece is signed up and they accepted her. But for me, this may or not may be true, but I do not feel like I would want to go as a representative of the US government to any country. I think that is the end of my sin. SM: Yeah. How about the Pentagon Papers? NC: Pentagon Papers were an important thing. Speaking of those recently, what is that guy's name again? SM: Oh, it is ... Now I am getting tired. Let us see here. NC: Daniel. Daniel Els. SM: Daniel Ellsberg, yes. NC: Yes. Well, he was no hippie, that is for sure. But he- SM: He was a Marine. NC: Yeah. His eyes were opened. I believe that he saw the truth and had the courage to. SM: How about Woodward and Bernstein? NC: Woodward and Bernstein. Not bad writers. SM: They are the ones that revealed Watergate. NC: Yeah. SM: And black and white TV of the 1950s and (19)60s. What did you think of it? NC: Beautiful. Love it. I was into it. SM: Was it truthful? NC: Truthful? What do you mean, truthful? SM: I bring it up because it kind of made you feel good, but it hid the racism in our society. NC: Oh, that. Oh, yeah. Well, it was just a baby. It was just about [inaudible]. SM: Still there? Hello? Well, I am just at the last part here, which is about some of the personalities of the period. And again, real quick thoughts, a few words about these people or their products. The first one is Tom Hayden. What were your thoughts on Tom? NC: He is a seriously smart guy. SM: How about Jane Fonda? NC: Jane, I think she has been used and abused. SM: Huey Newton? NC: Huey P newton. Huey P Newton. I do not really know. I do not too much about him personally. SM: How about Eldridge Cleaver and Kathleen Cleaver? NC: Eldridge Cleaver. Oh, it is... SM: They are Black. NC: I know they went to Algeria, kidnapped Timothy Leary. Let me see. Those guys, they are too heavy duty for me to really understand what it was, the inner workings of the Black Panther party and the politics of that. Are they murderers? Are they not murderers? I do not know. SM: And the last two are Bobby Seale and H. Rap Brown. Of course, they are Black Panthers too. NC: Bobby Seale. I know Bobby Seale, not well, but I ... That is him recently. He is an easy interview. SM: I tried to get him to be interviewed. He said nope. NC: You are kidding. SM: No. He does not interview too many people. He does not. NC: Oh. Well, I do not know because he has got his wrath. He is a very lucid speaker and very dedicated and is not really changed his mind over the years. He has been saying the same thing. SM: The other one was H. Rap Brown. He is in jail the rest of his life. NC: I do not know H. Rap. SM: Malcolm X. NC: Malcolm X, I think he was a great person. I can see how people were frightened of him. But even if a wimpy person, I am, but I still think that he was major, brilliant. SM: How about Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.? NC: Yes. Yes, finest. SM: Angela Davis. NC: Angela Davis. Strong, powerful sister. SM: This is an event, Attica. NC: Attica, Governor Rockefeller. To this day, everything he touched was horrible. It is still going on. And that just reminds me of the horrible corruption of the government of the State of New York. SM: San Quentin, which is where George Jackson was. NC: Yeah. No, I do not know much about that. It was not good, right? SM: Yes, it is a prison with a lot of inmates. NC: Yeah. SM: Alcatraz. I say that because that is what the Native Americans took over. Actually, Jane Fonda went over there and supported them. NC: Yes. Yes, she did. I do not know. SM: Stokely Carmichael? NC: I do not know Stokely. SM: How about Bayard Rustin? NC: No, I do not even know that name. SM: Oh, he was the co-organizer of the March on Washington (19)63. NC: Oh. Oh, for him, that is good. SM: With A. Philip Randolph. How about Eleanor Roosevelt? NC: Eleanor Roosevelt, a brilliant woman way ahead of her time. SM: JFK. NC: JFK. Oh, JFK. JFK, I have heard of him. SM: John Kennedy. NC: Yeah, John Kennedy. Well, I think everything has been said about John F. Kennedy. SM: How about LBJ? NC: I hated him. I really, truly did. SM: How about Bobby Kennedy? NC: Bobby Kennedy, if it only it were true, and if only he had lived. SM: Hubert Humphrey? NC: No, not Hubert Humphrey. I am not interested in him. SM: Eugene McCarthy. NC: Yes. Good guy. Yes. But it could have never won, but because he was so good, so right. SM: George McGovern. NC: Yes, I liked him too. Same reason. SM: Richard Nixon. NC: Richard Nixon will live forever. And just when you think he has gone, he is back. And he has got tons of stuff that has not been released yet. SM: Both he and LBJ. NC: Endlessly fascinating. I did not agree with him, but he was so much fun. SM: Probably the greatest Vice President in the history of America, Spiro Agnew. NC: Spiro. SM: I am only kidding. Any thoughts on him? NC: No. I think that, but somebody did tell me that an anagram of his name is grow a penis. SM: No, that might be true then. That is what a lot of people thought of him. Robert McNamara. NC: Robert McNamara. Robert McNamara, the guy who lied about everything in the war? SM: Yep. He was in charge, Secretary of Defense. NC: Yeah, unforgivable. Unforgivable, twice. SM: How about Henry Kissinger? NC: Oh, the worst. SM: We are getting into the (19)80s now. Ronald Reagan. NC: Ronald Reagan. I despised him. SM: Gerald Ford. NC: What a dope. SM: Jimmy Carter. NC: He was never elected, ever to be president. I mean he is. He is just a joke. Okay. SM: Jimmy Carter. NC: Jimmy Carter, naive. Right on all the environmental issues. Just a little bit too Christian for my taste. SM: Dwight Eisenhower. NC: Dwight Eisenhower, the military industrial complex. But then again, he was a general in the Army. How good could that be? I do not know. SM: Harry Truman. NC: Harry Truman. I do not like Harry Truman. I do not like the Atomic Bomber, anyone who would drop it. SM: Bill Clinton. NC: No. And I was a fool. He is the only person I ever voted for who won as president, but I only voted for him once. Oh. But, ah. SM: George Bush, the first. Sounds like a king. NC: I do not even want to say anything about him. He is nothing. He is worse than none. SM: And how about his son, George Bush the second? NC: Is he a boomer? SM: Yes, he is. Both he and Clinton are boomers. NC: Right. Well, it is not the boomers' fault. I am trying to think of something relevant about him. I do not even like to make jokes about him. SM: President Obama. He is a boomer too. NC: I know. But I still love Obama. SM: George Wallace. NC: George Wallace, the guy who changed from being a racist to being an invalid? Even after they take off their take, take, take caps, can you really ever like them? SM: Yeah. Dr. Benjamin Spock. NC: Dr. Spock. I do not think my mother used his book with me, but most bloomers got raised by Dr. Spock. And a lot of them are very disappointed in his advice. SM: Dr. Timothy Leary. NC: I love Timothy Leary. Timothy Leary is great. A lot of people criticize him, but he's a brilliant guy and he escaped from prison. I mean, how big is that? How impossible could be. SM: Think I forget who the people were that got him out. NC: The Weathermen. The Weathermen. SM: Oh, that is right. That is right. NC: Well, I read a few of his books, some of the books, and I knew him personally mostly in his dying days. And I just joined his company some. SM: Oh, so you were around him during his dying days? NC: Yes. SM: Did he change at all from the time he left Harvard to when he died? NC: I do not know if he changed when he, no. I do not know. I would not say that he changed a lot. No. No. SM: He was a close friend of Ram Dass, I believe. NC: Yes, I know him too. SM: And Ram Dass- NC: They are both friends. They are both close. SM: One had a stroke. I think Ram Dass had a stroke. NC: Yes, he did. Yes, he did. But he is doing very well, considering. SM: Can he talk? NC: Yes, he can talk. He lives here. He would be fun to go see. He lives in Hawaii. SM: He lives where? NC: In Hawaii. SM: Oh. NC: Yeah. SM: You do not think he would do an interview, do you? NC: He might. You never know. SM: Could you send me his email address? NC: Oh, I will ask Paul. Yeah. SM: Yeah. Yeah, because I mentioned to Paul about Ferlinghetti, who's the beat writer, and he said go for it. NC: Yeah, sure. SM: Your thoughts on the beats, because many people thought that they were the precursors to the (19)60s, and their challenge to authority way back in the (19)50s. Allen Ginsberg, Cassidy Kerouac, Ferlinghetti, Waldman Snyder, and Jones. Your thoughts on the beats? NC: Yes. I liked those poems. I was kind of interested in poetry for a while and the brattier, the better. SM: Did you meet any of the beats ever? NC: Not really. SM: Have you ever met Ferlinghetti? He is right down in San Francisco, I guess. NC: I know. They just published Paul's most recent book. SM: Yes. NC: They were up. But I have not met Ferlinghetti. No, I do not know him. SM: Did you ever read any of their books? NC: Yes. SM: Which one did you like the best? NC: Ferlinghetti, what was the name of the book to? SM: I am not sure. He wrote so many. NC: I know. SM: What would you think of Barry Goldwater? NC: Barry Goldwater, I like him better now than I did then. Although, we did not really know what was happening back in those days. He was just the president. SM: William Buckley. NC: William Buckley. Oh. I see he is really smart. SM: How about- NC: I do not agree with. SM: How about your thoughts on communes? NC: Well, people say I lived on a commune for eight years. I lived with some several other people in one place, and it worked out very well for me. I did not need to have any money and our company paid for all the dentist, doctor, all the food, the thing, this, all the equipment. They wrote all the grants, got all the money, did all the things. But I worked in the garden, did all that stuff. And it did not seem like anything out of the ordinary to me. It was like a way to live for me. But I do not know about the communes that are the famous communes. SM: Like the farm still exists. NC: Right. And I know them. I know with the farm, and I like them very much. SM: Steve Casket. I interviewed him. NC: I liked Steve, and I like Aida May very, very much. And he's just adorable, wonderful. Changed the life of so many women. SM: LSD. NC: LSD, that was a great thing. It was a great thing that happened and it was good for humankind. SM: Just the whole concept of the Cold War, did that ever scare you? NC: It did not really. I wish it was back, actually. Better than the other one. SM: Yeah. When you said you were 20. When you turned six, was it 1960? NC: Yeah. SM: So you were in high school when the Cold War was in its prime. Did you ever fear the nuclear attacks and all the other stuff? NC: No, I never did. SM: Okay. NC: Just it had no basis in reality to me. I could not relate to it. SM: That was also the period of Sputnik. NC: Yeah. SM: There is a rise of higher education, which is a very important part of the (19)60s too. So many people going to college. How about the Korean War? Did that have any links to that at all? NC: Oh, was it summer? It was at summer camp. I could not believe there was another war. Well, it was just one was over and now there was another war. It was crazy. It is still going on too. SM: I agree. A lot of people think it's coming back because of our tensions with Russia. Although, President Obama's a friend right now with the president, but we will see what happens. My next to last question is pictures say a thousand words. You were a photographer. Of all the pictures from the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, and (19)80s that were in magazines and that were in newspapers, are there several pictures that you think stood out that were symbolic of the times? NC: Well. Oh, well, the 10th state picture and the picture of the man shooting the man in the head. And well, there are the images I think of are all horrible. SM: Yeah, that is interesting. NC: Just off the top of my head there are, it just, I could never read Life Magazine. I would never even open it. People said, "Oh, why, because they could have great photography." Well, I did not want to see the pictures for every time I looked at it, it was something horrible and big and in really good definition. No. SM: Yeah. I think there were, you hit one. The picture of the girl over the body at Ken State. That is one of the top 100 of the 20th century. NC: Yeah. Is it? SM: And of the girl in the picture, the one that was burned in the Vietnam War. NC: Yes. Oh. SM: That is Kim Phuc. And then the athletes at the (19)68. NC: It is the fifth. SM: The fifth up in the air. That is another big one. And certainly, mean lies another one and that. NC: But were there any happy pictures? SM: I am trying to think of any. Of course, the Kennedy or the assassination of Dr. King. NC: Oh, it is awful. SM: I am trying to think. I think the happy ones may have been the space. Well, because the space program is growing then and landing on the moon and everything. When all is said and done, the best books are written about a 50 to 100 years after a particular event are happening. When the last boomer or the last person who was in this group has passed on, what do you think historians and sociologists will be writing about this period, about this generation and their impact on America and the world? NC: I have no idea. I hope they have your book. SM: My books, at the rate it is going, it is going to be two books. NC: Really? I mean, it is huge, huge, huge. And I think that, and I hope that it will work. SM: Well, what I am hoping to do in this book is that I am going to be adamant. I have already been one University Press. I have only contacted two. They are both interested, but I do not have any contract. But the thing is, you got to cut them down and you have got to, I am going to edit them. You will see your, so will Paul eventually, because I am six months I am hibernating to transcribe and send them out, is that they are not going to compromise the interviews. I am not going to do it. I want to reach college students and high school students. I want them to love history again. I want them to read about people and to understand the times that they may not have lived in, but also to inspire boomers to read this because every person has a story to tell. Everybody is legitimate. We may disagree, but I think we can agree that we can disagree. And that is what I want to do on this. So that there is a lot of people that do not like other people in the book. I have one person who told me, "I am not going to be interviewed by you. You interviewed that person." And he said goodbye. I do not want that kind of a person. NC: That is right. I agree with you. SM: And so I like people like you and Paul, and some of the people that Paul has recommended. I did not get all the people that Paul recommended because a couple of them said no, and then some did not respond. But that is okay. That is part of any process. NC: Yeah. SM: But what other-other organization I wanted to mention was the Young Americans for Freedom. Did you know anything about that group? NC: Well, sort of, maybe. SM: They were the more conservative group. NC: Yes, they were. I thought they were a bunch of dopes. But they are still very, very big today. SM: Yeah, and they were- NC: Because they got their start in that organization, became very successful. The people I knew who got their start in that organization became very successful in Washington, DC in several different. SM: That started at William Buckley's home. NC: Did it? SM: Yeah. She started it in the early (19)50s. And one thing I did not ask you is about the women, which is the Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug. NC: Yes. Yes-yes. Yes, them. SM: And Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug and Betty Friedan. What did you think of those women? NC: Well, I loved them. And Bella, she was at the ... I met her in 1972 at the Democratic Convention, and she was just great with us. She was so wonderful, so forthcoming, just right there for us. So we enjoyed her company so much. And I liked Ms. Magazine. I wrote for it a couple of times, and I think that Gloria Steinem is the person that asks the question to whatever the question is. I said, "Well, why do not you ask Gloria Steinem because she is so smart and fast, she is going to get it right away." SM: Yeah. I have learned it even within the movements, there is disagreements, which is obvious. And so, one of the questions that I have asked a lot of people, and I am not going to ask this, but is that the unity that seemed to be so present in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s amongst all these groups at anti-war, you do not see it anymore. You see a protest and you do not see very many. They are kind of become, one of the criticisms of the movement groups is that they have become so special interest, and that is conservative. The special interest groups have taken over. But it is a legitimate criticism even amongst many liberals, because if you have a women's movement and you have a protest, you do not see the gay and lesbian groups there. You do not see the anti, I mean, there is no unity anymore. I am not sure if that is just me seeing this or whether you see it as well. I do not know. NC: Well, I think that right now that was trying to happen. And I have a friend who is right now putting together a big protest for October. She got the permit for the location before she knew what it was going to be. She just graduated from UCLA and she is into that community organizing and things like that. Yeah. She is bringing, what she is doing is she is going to be in Sacramento in October, and she is trying to bring together exactly that, a coalition of all these groups who need to be heard. And so, it is the gay and lesbian. They have all these initials, GLG, LD, LV. I know she has got all of those. She has got every possible fact, and she is trying to bring them together under one roof. But I think that one of the reasons, what you mentioned, one of the reasons that might be a problem is that there are not these individual personalities who can bring attention to it all. There used to be an Abbie and there was a sign. I mean, you go to the World Trade thing in Canada or wherever it is, and you see a bunch of kids in the street breaking windows. But you do not have a sense of who are these people? How can I relate to them? Are they me? They are just nobody. SM: I know that close with this. I know that when Abbie Hoffman committed suicide, when I heard, he lived over in Bucks County. And I remember the article that was written about when they found him, that he was on his bed. He had written a note saying that no one was listening to me anymore and that he only had $2000 in the bank or something like that, because he had given all his money away. I almost cried when I heard it because the fact that. I almost cried when I heard it because of the fact that I did not know him. I had seen him so many times. There were times when... And I knew a lot of people did not like him and what he represented, but when I saw him on the Phil Donahue show, when I lived in California, when he came out of hiding, and he knew he was going to have to go to jail, and he had changed his nose and he had plastic surgery, and he had been working on issues behind the scenes under another name to save a river. NC: Right. SM: You knew this man. It was more than just the theatrics, it was the substance. NC: Yes. SM: And people that I have interviewed, beyond Paul had told me that, "How can you not really? How do you dislike him?" People disliked Jerry Ruben. They disliked him. NC: Yeah. SM: Because they thought he had a mean streak in him. And he did a scene on the Phil Donahue show that just about embarrassed, but they hit the Yippies and I [inaudible] if you Phil Donahue, but he is so darn protected. I do not know, but he kind of really made Phil Donahue look terrible, and it is on YouTube. But Abby Hoffman never would have done that. He never would have been respectful, but I am just sad that he died feeling that way if there was truth that no one is listening anymore. Because you know something, Abby? I was listening. NC: Oh, bless your heart. SM: See, and what some of the regrets is never getting to meet some of the people that you and others are talking about, because they would have been my friends. NC: Yeah. SM: And both conservatives and liberals, now. I have worked with all of them in the university environment, so people that know me know I am pretty fair. And I just like people who stand for something, people who are not... It is like Teddy Roosevelt said, people who are not afraid to go into the arena of life, knowing that when you go into that arena of life, you are going to add enemies and friends. But even though if you want to live in a world where you are not vulnerable and you do not want to be hurt, then you will never help other people in this world. So, I do not know how I got on this tangent here, but... NC: I am glad you told me. SM: Yeah. Well, it is important because I am not going to let the interviews that I have of some people, and it is honest and true when they just go past the Yippies and the other things. I am not going to let that happen on any group and any entity because this is about what people think about them. The yippies were much more than just a theatrical group trying to raise hell. So anyways. NC: Wow. I am impressed. This is going to be great. SM: Well, I will be staying in touch with you. If you can think of any people, be even yourself that even Paul does not know about that would be good for interviews. Ron Doss, I thought he had a stroke and could not talk, but people like that. I am interviewing Robert. J. Lifton. I do not know if you have heard of him. NC: Robert. J. Lifton, this name... SM: The professor at Harvard who talked about the Vietnam Vets and post-traumatic stress disorder. NC: Right. SM: Well, I am interviewing him. He is 86 years old and... NC: Oh, beautiful. SM: And he is retired. But I want to interview him because he wrote a book on the Holocaust. He wrote a book on the Vietnam Veterans. He wrote Upon Man's Inhumanity, the Man. It is more of a psychological, so I am not only going to talk about Vietnam vets, I am going to talk about the effect that it had on the other side. Did you see the anti-war people or the people that were so passionate on the other side, the effects that it may have affect them mentally as well. And I am asking questions and I am never going to be able to ask any other person but him. NC: Right. SM: So I got an interview with him on the 29th up in... And then I am going to interview Jerry Lemke, the professor at Holy Cross when I am up there and he's the guy, the real spitting image, which is the person that said that the story about people spitting on Vietnam vets is totally a myth. NC: That is right. SM: And so, I am interviewing him, and then I just found out today that Alan Wolf from Boston College, a great professor up there, philosopher, religious professor, is agreed to be interviewed because I want him to address the issues of morality and ethics within the generation. Of course, he has written a lot about it, and so I want him to talk about the effect this has had from his perspective. So, everybody has got their unique angle and anyways. NC: Great. Great-great, great. SM: Well... NC: Thank you for including me. It is fascinating and fun. SM: Yes. Well, thank you for agreeing to do it and for spending so much time with me, as did Paul. NC: Okay. SM: Obviously, you are a great couple. I hope sometime when I come to the West Coast I can visit you guys because... NC: Okay. SM: After I talk with Paul and got to know him on the phone and everything, I consider him a friend, and now he is on my Facebook. NC: Oh. SM: Are you on Facebook too? NC: Yeah, sure. SM: You want to be a Facebook friend? NC: Absolutely. SM: I only have about 80 and... NC: Okay. SM: I am a very, I do not, and just some of my former students and then some former professional people, and so it has been great talking to you. NC: Same here. SM: And you have a great day. NC: Okay. You too. SM: And say hi to Paul. NC: Okay, I will. SM: Bye. NC: Okay, bye-bye. (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Nancy Cain Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cain, Nancy (Television producer) ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Video recording; Authors; Television producers and directors; Videofreex (Production company); Cain, Nancy (Television producer)--Interviews Description An account of the resource Nancy Cain is a videographer, producer and author. Cain started her career as a member of the Videofreex, a group that toured the country in the 1960s and 1970s and produced experimental videos on Woodstock, the Chicago Seven and geodesic domes. Cain was the co-creator and producer of the PBS show The 1990s and the author of the book Video Days. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-02-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.176a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.176b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 154:16 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4cef83ca3f29ace2671e7688894f4224.mp3 8dae8282e1eb1d675401bbdc6cedffd0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project. These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 12 July 2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marwan Tawfiq Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Nawzar Haji Language Kurdish Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Nawzar Haji https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a6295d51a7ba0d1c80e4882bed976904.mp3 178552823551b2c659dea1f7330d8e85 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project. These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. OHMS Object URL http://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=NergizTaha.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Date of Interview 15 April 2013 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Nirgiz Taha Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 66:16 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Biographical Text Nirgiz was born in Dohuk. At the age of 6, Nirgiz and her family escaped from the cruelty of Saddam Hussein and came to the U.S. Nirgiz obtained her bachelor's degree and professional degree from Binghamton University. Keywords Kurdistan; Kurdish culture; Kurdish language; Kurdish Wedding; Eid; Religion; Saddam Hussein; Iraq; Turkey; United States; Binghamton University; Education; Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Nirgiz Taha Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 15 April 2013 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:03 AD: Okay, so Nirgiz just give me your full name, and then let us just start like that. 0:13 NT: Okay. My name is Nirgiz Taha. 0:18 AD: Okay. And so- You were born in Kurdistan? Which town, like- 0:26 NT: As much as I know I was born in the city of Duhok, Kurdistan, Northern Iraq. 0:33 AD: And when was that? 0:35 NT: 1990, March 1990. 0:38 AD: Okay, and then, when did you move here? 0:43 NT: We moved here, we left Kurdistan in 1996. We made our way as previously stated we went to Slopeia. From there on we went to Batman, from Batman- 1:05 AD: You went to Turkey? 1:06 NT: Yes, we did not stay long. It was just through the whole process until we got here it was like a couple day trip on our way. 1:17 AD: Okay, okay. So, I mean- why did you leave, why did your family make that decision? 1:23 NT: There is just a lot of turmoil. You know the Kurds did not, even to this date they do not have a lot of voices especially back in those days in 1996. There is a lot of turmoil and chaos and my dad just felt like he needed to get his family to a better place to give them a better opportunity. So he took that opportunity to bring us to America. 1:52 AD: Okay, so how many siblings do you have? 1:56 NT: I have four brothers, all older than me and I have four sisters and I am in the middle of them. 2:05 AD: And so, are they all here? 2:07 NT: They are all here. 2:09 AD: So, you came as a family? 2:10 NT: Well, we were, there were nine of us, I mean eight of us brothers and sisters with my parents the ten of us came to America together. However, my youngest sister was born here in America in 2000. 2:28 AD: Oh! So, did you go to school in Kurdistan or Iraq, or let us say Duhok? Did you go to school, did you start school over there? 2:40 NT: From what my mother tells me I did go to school. I mean to be honest with you I do not remember at all, but she did tell me that I did go to school for like about three months or so. I started and they just took me out prior to coming here. 2:58 AD: Okay, so, you only spoke Kurdish at home over there? 3:06 NT: Yes. 3:06 AD: So, did your parents also know Arabic? 3:11 NT: My dad does. He speaks a little bit of Arabic, I mean he speaks Arabic, he understands Arabic. However, my mom does not. And my dad has never spoke to us in Arabic either, it was all Kurdish all the time. 3:24 AD: Okay, so the Iraqi government did not push you guys to speak Arabic. I mean you were okay obviously you were allowed to speak Kurdish? 3:41 NT: I, that question is kind of difficult for me to answer because I mean I do not remember what the restrictions were back then, and I told- to be honest with you to this date I have not spoken to either of my parents. I mean it is now a good idea to go back and ask them that question, but I never asked them whether there were any restrictions on their language. I am thinking they had a fear of using it but I do not know if there were any real restrictions on it. 4:11 AD: Okay, okay. So, your older siblings, what the age difference between you and like the oldest one? 4:20 NT: My oldest sibling is 32, 33 years I believe. 4:27 AD: So, you have quite a bit age difference. 4:31 NT: About 10, twelve- about 10 or 11 years between us, yes. 4:36 AD: So, he did go to school over there? 4:39 NT: He did. They had to learn some Arabic. I think They had learnt some Arabic but because they were young, because they were young as well I mean going to school was so inconsistent there as well, so my oldest brothers they kept some of the Arabic language that they learnt in school, they know how to write in Kurdish I mean all of that but because we were so young none of that stayed with us. 5:09 AD: Yeah, obviously. So the oldest brother was in high school or something when you guys moved here? 5:18 NT: Yes. 5:20 AD: About, right? 5:20 NT: Yes 5:21 AD: So how did your father make a living I assume your mother was a housewife to take care of nine kids. So what did he do, what was his job? 5:31 NT: My father I mean I still I have no idea what he did. I had no idea I mean I knew he worked in a US government agency because we were asylum, not refugees- 5:49 AD: Really, you were not refugees? 5:51 NT: We were not refugees we were basically we were asylum because of my dad’s, umm- 5:58 AD: So, he worked for a US government? 6:01 NT: Yeah, but I do not know what exactly, I have no idea what he did. 6:07 AD: So, he spoke English? 6:09 NT: No, no I think it was through his- I mean I just do not know but he worked he was not home a lot that is all I know from my mother. He used to- his work made it so that he was away from home all the time and had my mom taking care of us. 6:25 AD: Some kind of secret agency? 6:28 NT: No, not really. I just have no idea- 6:32 AD: He just had to travel? 6:33 NT: Yeah, a lot of travelling. 6:36 AD: So, but what did he do when he came here? 6:41 NT: That is the thing when we came here because of his language barrier and all of that he had to become a- he started working at the NYSEG as a labor worker because of the language he did go to school for a little bit but because of the big family he had to provide for his family so he just took on the job and has maintained that job for- until now. 7:09 AD: I see, I see. So, what is your parents’ education in Kurdistan? Were they able to go to school that is what I mean? 7:18 NT: Unfortunately, not. I mean because they were married at such a young age because of I mean- my mother’s story says that even that they had to get marry at such a young age and you know start a family and provide for the kids. They were not able to go to school. My mom did mention that she did go to some type of school for about six months or so, I do not know what exactly what type of school that was and if she you know if it was of any benefit but that was the maximum at seventeen years old. 7:56 AD: So as six years old do you remember anything like about- Do you remember your house for example in Kurdistan? Do you remember anything like were you lived? 8:10 NT: I remember bits and pieces. 8:13 AD: What do you remember? 8:15 NT: Like for instance I remember a couple of trips. You know being the young age I was remember a couple of trips that we as a family took together to our village in Gundi. Like, I remember those little things. I remember walking in the garden with my uncle sometime. I remember the night before actually we came here and how everybody was so upset, crying you know and I just felt like I was I mean I had no idea what was going on but you knew there was a lot of distress in the household, a lot of crying they are just bits and pieces. I do remember school, like me going to school and all my friends being there, being in uniform because we had to were uniform, like it is just bits and pieces it is not consistent. 9:29 AD: Yeah, so have you ever went back since you came here? 9:32 NT: I did, I have gone back only once in almost the twenty years that I have been here. I went back in 2009 and I totally did not know anything or anywhere in Duhok and you know things have completely changed even though I was so young, I even do not know what has changed but you know through my dad and my mom and their trips back in 2000 and their stories from when we lived there you can tell that it has come a long way from where it was. 10:12 AD: So, I cannot say what you missed about in Kurdistan because you do not remember so well but does your family talk about Kurdistan? Like how life was over there? 10:26 NT: Absolutely, absolutely- 10:28 AD: I mean, do they tell your stories about it and stuff? 10:32 NT: Yeah, a lot of the time we sit together as a family and you will see I mean all of a sudden you will hear my mom and dad start telling their stories and reminiscing about the past and all of these things that they went through all of the things that their parents went through, their siblings went through or even close friends that went through and so they do talk about a little a lot. it shows that they miss the home town they miss their family, because all they have here is us, their kids. They do not have any siblings here they do not have any parents here, they do not have aby aunts or uncles of any of that sort here. Neither do we outside of our parents, but they do talk about a little a lot. 11:24 AD: But there is Kurdish community here- 11:27 NT: - is a gift. 11:29 AD: But, the- so- but your status is different you were not a refugee, but you still had close contacts with them. 11:39 NT: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. 11:41 AD: So, why did you come here? Did your father tell you or did you ask them, why here because there are other areas. 11:53 NT: Yeah, absolutely, when we basically left Kurdistan and you know went through different places, we went to Guam. It is an Island territory of the United States and we went there, we lived there for about nine months until they could find a place for us and we finally settled in Maryland. So, we were there for about good seven to nine months I believe, I forgot exactly what time, but we were there for a good time we thought that it would be our home in Maryland because there was a god, not a huge, but a good Kurdish population as well- 12:42 AD: Where in Maryland? Area- 12:45 NT: Rockwell- 12:47 AD: Okay. 12:47 NT: I believe it might be Rockwell, but I am not 100 percent sure. 12:53 AD: Okay, that is okay. 12:55 NT: So they had us even settled with a one of those volunteers who helps settle the family and she was able to help us out and never honestly thought, I mean we honestly we were trying to make it our home but my father had a friend here, a friend, very close friend who had known all his life back home in Duhok and his friend basically, he convinced him, convinced my father to move to Binghamton New York because you know there was a growing Kurdish population here and they were here, and because we did not know anybody closely in Maryland my dad figured it would be a good idea to move so in 1998; I believe we officially and we have been here ever since. 13:49 AD: So, it took you two years to settle basically? 13:53 NT: Basically, yeah. 13:55 AD: Yeah. 13:55 NT: Being their young is kind of hard to know exactly what, how we transitioned into Binghamton and all of that but you just taking the stories and you learn from that. 14:13 AD: Oh, yeah. So did your other siblings continued with their education? 14:21 NT: Yeah, they all continued with their education. I mean it was kind of difficult for them especially for easy it was easy to pick up on English, you know being young kids and all your mind is open. For them it was a little bit difficult but we still all are fluent in English right now, so I mean- it did not have a huge toll on us, you know the whole moving, they did go to school, some were able to finish, some are still continuing like me and some others. So- 14:58 AD: I see, I see. So how do you like your—So this is actually your life. This is what you learn right? This is what you are accustomed to, so do you have close ties with Kurdish friends or do you have other friends? How is it? 15:23 NT: It is kind of for me is a different story than a lot of the other Kurdish— 15:29 AD: Okay, will we hear your story? 15:31 NT: Yeah, absolutely, that is what I am saying like for me in middle school and high school I always saw that the Kurdish girls who were always very close to each other, like we were very close to each other because we felt like that we had only each other to lean on we knew each other’s language, so you know, at the core, we were very close, but I always wanted be like either on my own or just I was too focused on my school I just did not want anything take away my focus on that so, as we got a little bit older, the ties that some of the Kurdish girls had together I did not have those ties with. I do have Kurdish friends and I do have you know friends from other nationalities and ethnicities but I just, I was not as close to them as they were to each other, and even to this date like a lot of my close friends are American, but I do speak a lot of them, a lot of the Kurdish girls still we keep in touch. 16:46 AD: Of course, yeah. Because, so you arrived in 1996, and then in 2001 the 9/11 took place and there was the hatred towards Islam started to grow and stuff. Did you suffer from that? Because clearly you are Muslim right? 17:16 NT: Yeah, I mean there were some time, even that I was not very young but even during that tragic event there were some time people were giving us hard time call as Arabs, you know tell us to go back to our country, but I felt like unlike a lot of people, I will swear, me personally I was lucky because I had a good group of friends they were not very judgmental, you know, they were the outsiders, not the outsiders, you know people I did not speak to, students I never spoke to, I did not know of, who would tell me tell us Kurdish or the one especially with the hijab because a lot of my friends did not were the hijab, they did not get a lot of the remarks that we did because they were not wearing the hijab. But I felt like I was lucky even to this date through middle school, through high school I just felt like I had good friends that were not very judgmental. 18:39 AD: Because I do not think anyone really knows what Kurd is in this area right? 18:45 NT: No. 18:45 AD: I mean, so that there is like no problem there. Right? 18:53 NT: Well, yeah- 18:54 AD: There is no problem there like you do not have to worry about it but then there this sentiment towards, I mean for guys because you can tell right? But for girls this is harder so that is why I want to ask you because when Ridwan and Jotiyar were talking and they were like we do not know what women are going through but obviously, that is why I want to ask you this question. 19:28 NT: I mean, sometime it is easier than other time being only twenty-three years old you have seen something you always feel like people who do not know you are looking at you differently and are judging you. You go places and because of the media have you been everything, you know everything that is being happening you just feel like the eyes are on you. You just tell yourself how is this will ever change, is this ever going to change? Will people realize that somebody is innocent looking could be. So it is difficult. Sometime being at the university with other educated students there are not many looks that what you go elsewhere you feel like all eyes are on you. So situations are different, places you go are different, being a women especially wearing hijab a lot of, a lot of the time people take the hijab to mean in totally different thing. 20:47 AD: Yeah, this is my curiosity. That is my personal like where I was working this on collection, or you know being from Turkey, I know a little bit about Kurdish culture I do not see much difference really, to be honest with you, and it is like you know everything is like. All when I look it the craft is so colorful so lively, but I notice something you guys all wear black. Why is that? Tell me, explain that to me. I am just so curious. I almost ask your mother, but the time was running out so why is that? 21:36 NT: I mean, from my personal- 21:45 AD: You can tell what color I like, my taste is black, but is that just you Nergiz, everyone I see is wearing black, and I do not see any red for example, or yellow I do not see anything colorful and I know it is in the culture because I look at the crafts. Forget about anything, SO why you guys were all black, I not that, I love it but I am curious, is there a reason? NT: Not from me, no, but I love black because I feel like it goes even if you add a little bit of color to it goes with everything, black goes with everything, everything goes with black that is why I were it. No, I love color. 22:39 AD: There is no reason? 22:41 NT: No, but you never notice your other friends all wearing black? 22:44 AD: I will be probably noticing that now, but I do not think there is anything behind it I just feel like- 22:51 NT: Like your mother that day she was all black. 22:55 AD: She was that day, and she usually is, but at that time even now, back then, back even a couple of years ago for funeral all they wearing was black and, they were black a lot of the time to show respect to the sadness and all of that, but now they to bring less sadness upon the family- 23:24 AD: But not the men, I am talking about women. 23:28 NT: I do not think there is anything behind it I just think they love the color. 23:35 AD: I love black, you can tell, 95 percent of my wardrobe is black. I mean I hardly wear any other color I think is the noble color, I love it I just noticed because I know it is really lively, really vivid colors, and then I am like why I do not I see those colors in this community, so it is just a coincidence. 24:06 NT: Yeah, I should ask. For me I just like a lot. 24:16 AD: So, how do you guys live? You live at home with your family? 24:24 NT: We do live at home yeah. 24:26 AD: How it your family setting, your mother continues, your parents I should say, continues to live like they are caring the housel like in Kurdistan, like Kurdish up-bringing in Kurdish culture, rules tradition whatever. So you are in America but living like you are in Kurdistan. How is life in your house? 24:59 NT: I mean it is, we do live in America but we are very keen on our culture as well we do not like to forget especially my mom and dad their intention when they brought us here was to for us not to forget our language and unfortunately even though I do not know how to right in Kurdish or Arabic, I still I speak Kurdish fluently as well as I do in English. At the beginning the first couple of years when we went to school and we speak English a lot, our Kurdish kind of faded away but my mom and dad made sure that that was not going to happen so they speak to us all the time in Kurdish not even a second. We speak to each other in English, but you know- 25:57 AD: The siblings? Really- 25:58 NT: Yeah, we do because it is easier, even though we all fluent in both languages it is kind of just like a flow with English it is flow, with Kurdish I think we kind of have to think about it- a little bit of what we are saying, whether what are thinking is coming out exactly- 26:23 AD: Or may be sometime you mixed, I do that. 26:25 NT: Yeah, exactly. 26:26 AD: You do that right? Mixing English and Kurdish. 26:31 NT: Yeah, a lot, but the dressing, my parents were never strict on us on our dress code. I do not wear pants or sweats a lot like when I am on the move and I have a lot of errands to do, I usually, I would rather be comfortable but 95 percent of the time I am wearing either dresses or skirts. My sisters that have a different taste, you know. We each have our different taste but two of us are skirt and dresses all the time, the others pants and dresses whatever their taste is but my parents just never wanted us to forget our language. They also did not want u to forget our Kurdish identity. They talk to their families all the time and you know, even though we have been back a couple of us have only been back once, they want us to maintain those family ties not to forget our uncles and aunts and grandparents. So, it is important, you know the food is Kurdish, the language is Kurdish- 27:53 AD: So, what about breakfast for example, my experience like when I go to Turkey eat Turkish breakfast but here, some people do not eat breakfast, I am one of them, but when I am in Turkey, and I love it. What is the breakfast. Do you eat American way? Do you eat cereal for example for breakfast? 28:23 NT: We do, I mean I do if were in a rush, and you know- 28:30 AD: What is a Kurdish breakfast? 28:32 NT: Kurdish breakfast is, there is a traditional yogurt, plain yogurt that is home-made. My mom, my parents would not bring anything else into the house They do not like processed yogurt, they have to make it at home. But you have that their Kurdish style vegetable sautéed vegetables where there is eggplant or- 29:03 AD: For breakfast? 29:05 NT: Sometimes yeah- 29:05 AD: You eat eggplant for breakfast? 29:10 NT: They sauté eggplant and if ever- 29:14 AD: So, with tomato sauce or something- 29:22 NT: Just fry up or sauté onion and then your eggplant and just let them really Sautee and you cook it down to simmer them. But usually I do not do the cooking, 29:40 AD: But you do the eating- 29:42 NT: I do the eating but I mean I love cooking. 29:48 AD: So, for yogurt some vegetables sautéed— 29:53 NT: Tahini, there is some jam and- 29:59 AD: Do you also have this [I think what is it] molasses? 30:04 NT: Yeah, yeah. 30:04 AD: How do you call that in Kurdish? I will tell you how we call it in Turkish, pekmez, you do not use it? 30:17 NT: Dushav, they call it dushav. 30:19 AD: So, you mix that molasses with tahini, that is the way we do it. 30:25 NT: Yeah, they love that. 30:28 AD: And then you dip it with your pitta bread, 30:33 NT: Yeah pita bread, my mom cooks and my mom still bakes. Bakes bread Kurdish bread yeah. My- both ways, the one that the whole wheats the- 30:47 AD: Yeah, yeah- she cooks- 30:48 AD: Have you seen that? 30:50 AD: Where does she cook that? 30:51 NT: She brought hers. A friend of her sent her- 30:55 AD: Tell your mother I am coming for breakfast- 30:56 NT: Come, definitely! Oh my God, come. 30:59 AD: Oh, my God, that is difficult. 31:02 NT: When they do it they make a lot because you know it takes a lot, very time consuming, like at least five hours to like get through it. But she also makes other type of white bread. It is also a Kurdish style, but she does that with just a regular oven, you know a lot of kneading and you know there are like. But she has been known for her bread. 31:37 AD: Really? So does she do it alone or you guys help her or does she get friends to help her? 31:40 NT: No, never friends, she used to be able to do it by herself but now my sister in-laws usually help her, if they are not there I will help her, but you know- 31:54 AD: But I think is more funny if you do it in a group right? 31:57 NT: Yeah, she does not have the kick to her life, even though she is young, she is fifty-one. 32:18 AD: She is not old at all. 32:20 NT: Because she just have been taking care of all of us, a lot of the stories she told she has been through a lot with us back home and was basically not saying this with any intention but she single-handedly raised us because my dad’s job you know, working away from home a lot. So with her, sometimes, sisters were helping her out but you know she single handedly raised all of us. She just fell like that took a toll on her- 32:59 AD: That is why she is strong, you know what I mean, that makes people strong, definitely. We can always go back and then once I figure out what she talked about you help me with that. Okay, and what I want to do is like read the script and then come up with new questions to get her full story out, because she likes to talk and that is great, and that also happen, you do not end with one interview if people want to continue like if you have more questions you ask the permission and they say sure I want and that is no problem and you go back and then ask more details, questions and stuff, definitely we can do that. 33:58 NT: Breakfast and lunch are Kurdish and of we are on the go, we are in hurry, we do have our cereals, sandwiches, salads but even if there is like leftovers like dolma, other Kurdish food like bryani and all of that stuff if there is leftover from that they will be our half lunch. 34:31 AD: Exactly, so how about like celebrations like Eid and some other like Newroz, is there any other particular celebration for Kurdish culture? I mean Eid is religious, Newroz is cultural, totally Kurdish. Is there anything else? Like community to get together. 35:00 NT: May be because I am here we do not but you know, I mean this is also another religious thing but the Kurds are also begging on it but birthday of our prophet Muhammed. It is also a religious thing but the Kurds are also big in it, but the um the birthday of our prophet Muhammed. 35:21 AD: I think we call it kandil in Turkish, I do not know how to say it in obviously there is no word for it in English- So in Islam there are especially like Berat- What is it? 35:40 NT: I do not know, I know what you are saying but I do not know. 35:43 AD: So, the birth of Muhammed is one of those right? What is the name for that? They are all Arabic names obviously. There are so many names. In Turkey we call it simit like little circled pastries you sell those or you make helva for those days. 36:15 NT: There is a lot of treats. This year especially my mom made baklava I mean, they make baklava, and they also bought a lot of treats and my mom made bread we took that around for different families but you know but usually they just go and by a lot of store-bought goodies and make bread and they will give it around the different fan- different families- 36:39 AD: Yeah, yeah. 36:40 NT: But you know, but usually, usually they just go and buy a lot of, you know, store-bought goodies, or, you know, make bread, and they will give it around the difference- 36:53 AD: Okay. Oh, I know one thing a- but I do not know- [door knocking] Yes, come on in. come on in. I told Leslie to come. 37:02 NT: Yeah, yeah. 37:05 AD: Good timing, because we are just talking about the food 37:13 Leslie: Oh, I love food. I love food. 37:15 AD: Have a seat. So, um, do you know aşure, are you familiar with that name? It is kind of oatmeal but it like barley all these things—I know or may be that is Alevi tradition in Turkey. Because it is a Turkish tradition but it is also. Okay, so I was just trying to pull out more Kurdish because, and also, I think the geographic region affects the culture probably you celebrate something based on Iraqi tradition like versus Kurdish population, those things. You know what I am talking about? 37:59 NT: I understand yeah- 38:01 AD: I think region also affects- 38:03 NT: Probably does, I would not I mean I cannot speak on Kurdistan, you know themselves but you know just being here and seeing how things are celebrated or how things are run here that where I am getting these things from but I do not know, maybe they have different traditions. They even make a bigger deal out of it than we do here but I do not know what the differences might be. 38:41 AD: So basically, you celebrate Newroz and then Eids. Those are the main celebrations? 38:48 NT: Those are the main celebrations- 38:50 AD: How about weddings? That is big right? 38:52 NT: Yeah, those are big. We have not had, I mean usually because this is not a huge community like Nashville or San Diego, Texas, there are not that many couples getting married everyday— 39:08 AD: We will maybe we will come and dance, right? During your wedding. [laugh] 39:15 NT: But they are big celebration like the whole community, it is one of those times that the whole community actually gets together from those two nights, you know for the henna— 39:25 AD: Oh, you do it? 39:27 NT: Yeah. [laughs] 39:28 AD: She likes that. Please let us know so she can put her make up on. Yeah, also you do that a night before the wedding? 39:39 NT: The night before the wedding. The next day is the ceremony. The whole— 39:45 AD: Henna night is separate right? 39:48 NT: It is separate— 39:52 AD: Just for girls? 39:50 NT: Actually, now it is not, now it is almost combined. 39:52 AD: But generally, it was, right? 39:54 NT: Yeah it was just for the girls and even now back in my family back home they usually do that. They have the ladies in one room, then they go take care of the guy all in one room. But here because there is not, you know, I do not know whether it is difficult to get a place or difficult timing-wise to get everybody together. They just set it so that everybody just meets for night. And the ceremony in the next day. 40:27 AD: I have been in a henna night for Kurdish community in Germany. They do it together. They do not separate. So the bride- what color does the bright wear? 40:41 NT: She chooses the color of her choice now. 40:45 AD: Not red? 40:47 NT: No, I mean like it was used to be like whatever color, but now just they choose the color of their choice for their henna night, we call it Shev Khena. And then the next day it is just a regular modern white dress. 41:08 AD: Oh my God, so it is westernized! 41:11 NT: Very much. But you know for the henna--- 41:15 AD: How about in Kurdistan, is it that westernized? 41:18 NT: Yeah, it is. The dress like for instance for me you know the guests, the girls will wear their Kurdish clothes absolutely, we usually frowned upon anybody who comes in without Kurdish clothes, we are like this is a wedding, what are you doing, where are Kurdish clothes. No matter what they wear outside, we, like, for everybody to wear their Kurdish clothes to represent you know, to just that one day and night for them to wear, but the bride, you know, Shev Khena she does wear the Kurdish clothes but for the wedding she wears her white gown. 41:57 AD: Wow, that is interesting, it is interesting. So, weddings are the big event, the biggest, right? 42:10 NT: They are. I mean they are, hopefully we are trying to make it so that either Eid or Newroz is the biggest event of the year but, you know, they used to be, everybody used to look forward to just going to the weddings because that is where, that is the only celebration, you know the big celebration that they have for that year, for the month or whatever. 42:34 AD: So, do you guys marry other people, or you just marry with among each other? What I mean is like the Kurds marry Kurds, or do you guys marry American? 42:41 NT: I mean I have heard of a couple of people married outside their Kurdish ethnicity and, you know both couple they have not worked out, I mean, I am not saying I know everybody, but you know, the ones I have heard have not worked out but we usually, especially my family is very, very big on Kurds marrying Kurds, and especially somebody within the village and a lot of the people I know hear the Kurds who have been married they have known. [only Kurds] AD: Let us say Erdem, I wish you will see him, let us say Erdem likes one of the girls in this Kurdish community. Is he welcome? I mean he is Kurdish. He is not from Kurdistan, he is Kurdish. 43:36 NT: Well a lot of the things that are going, a lot of the time now with through all the social media and all of that stuff, a lot of the times, it is not parents who get the say. Of course, absolutely it is important that they are okay with it, but you know they have given more openness or- 44:29 AD: Yeah, they are more open-minded— 44:30 NT: open-minded maybe- [No, no pictures no, I look awful, I look awful, I should not trust them] But it really depends on the family. It really depends on where exactly they are from and what their beliefs are. Some of them more strict than others. So he can be welcomed in some places but he might not be welcomed in others, so it just depends. 45:05 AD: The batteries low- so you are lucky. 45:09 NT: I will come back next time just for photos. 45:10 AD: No, we took some photos, with Adam’s. Actually, I am using your mom’s photo for something- And a little section of her interview. Tell her she will be happy. Yeah, so, how are we doing time-wise. It is almost a little after noon. You are still good? 45:40 NT: Yeah. 45:40 AD: How much more time? 45:41 NT: Twenty minutes or so. 45:42 AD: Okay. Alright, good. Let us see, what else. So we talked about marriage and all that. So let me ask you a little bit about political questions. Are you following politics, what is going on for the Kurds? 45:48 NT: I usually do not because, the reason behind that is, I mean, a lot of political news that I can take here, look up here, I am able to understand, I am able to do my own research and understand the English language and I understand what is going on, but you know, you go on to google or you go on to Kurdish site it is all Kurdish. I do not know how to read it, I do not understand it, and although I know my Badini language fluently, the news from Erbil to Duhok is too different [Dialects], completely different but they speak formally on the news and I do not follow it. So I have a hard time. 47:05 AD: So, what is the formal Kurdish dialect? Is it Sorani? 47:09 NT: No, no. That I am completely not able to understand, but for Erbil they use how like Jotiyar and them call it ‘Asli. It is Kurdish without any Arabic influence, like you know- 47:29 AD: Asli, I understand. 47:31 NT: Yeah. 47:32 AD: Purified. 47:33 NT: Yeah, purified Kurdish. I mean, surprisingly I do not understand it all. My dad, Jotiyar, my brothers, Zeki they understand it. My mother understand it. They know what they are saying, but I just even you know speaking Kurdish I have a hard time following this purified Kurdish versus western influence Kurdish. 48:00 AD: Maybe we can say, high Kurdish, is that right? Would that work? More formal- 48:09 NT: I just, yeah it is like more formal. The Kurdish we speak I feel like is a more everyday language. 48:19 AD: Exactly because I know what you are saying my native language but I am capable of reading and writing, I can read anything, I mean it is my first language. I did not come here at the age of six, I came here with a college degree. So exactly, but like my daughter she speaks Turkish, she is learning, she is improving but I do not think she will ever have that kind of Turkish. You know what I mean. She can communicate, but she is not going to be able to sit down, read or follow the news. I mean she can follow the news here at this age, but she cannot follow it over there. Yeah, I understand. 49:19 NT: I mean it has become a lot better, a couple of years ago some of the things even my mom and dad would say, you know I would be flattered, and I would say what they are talking about, but now I have that sense every time I hear a word I do not know I actually ask, and I actually I am like what is this, you know they explain to me what she mean. So that hass become easier. It does tend to get easier over time with the language but still I will not be able to tell you if I were to look at the news and you tell me to translate I will never be able to tell you that. 49:59 AD: Also, I am curious Nergiz what is your position. You know it is like, that the following the world’s politic and stuff, but what is happening the Kurds in Turkey, Kurds in Kurdistan and Syria. You know what I mean, this biggest minority group in the world and they have been put down by so many countries for so long, like a lot of this happening in Turkey and stuff, so do you follow all that? Do you guys talk about it? 50:42 NT: I do not, I am like I know bits and pieces of the politics right know, you know I mean I knew, reading up on the Kurdish – Turkish relationship I knew that it was not very good and it is still unstable like getting better of course but it is unstable. I just did not know it to what extent you know, the relationship was like until I read about it. I hear different stories about what happened between them and between Syria and Kurdistan, the Kurds in Iran and the Kurds and the Arabs, you know the Iraqis themselves, but to say that I follow the politics I honestly do not. I try to be open-minded I know a lot of the times people tell me you know what, why, you know the older generation, it might be the older generation, it might not be, it depend on who you talk to, whether they are educated or they are open-minded or they are not open-minded and they will ask you are you doing that why are so open-minded of that, be scared of this and be scared of that and I just feel like I tell them if we continue this hatred or if we continue this tension it will never go away. It has to stop somewhere; it has to start to with people like us trying it different. But you know there are close-minded people still, there are still a lot of tensions, and you can definitely see it, I just try to stay away from it. 52:46 AD: But you are a member of the local Kurdish community and the organization. You are aware of your culture and your history obviously, right? So but I mean nobody is, and this whole oral history project is not political. We just want to record everyone’s story. You know your story is different than obviously your mother’s story because she has a different experience although she is your mother, you know, so it is just, that is the beauty of it and then teaching others for this culture. So that was our main goals. I think that is really it Nergiz, I cannot think of anything else. Do you have anything? 53:46 Leslie: No. 53:46 AD: Do you have anything else? 53:47 NT: I mean not I feel like I have covered everything as well but it is just good to know, I have even looking back I think we could have done a better a job, you know, as Kurds could do a better job and you know bringing our name to light and more making ourselves known more but I feel like we are taking one step at a time and hopefully it all go in the right direction. 54:21 AD: I think so, and I think nothing can happen right away. This is how I feel. Things take time and I think I am like really impressed with the local organization. I think they are really doing a great job and you I think did a great job here at the university. These are all baby steps and that was what we do. This is a baby step too, but it is like we are just, it is growing slowly and surely, that is the best thing to do. But thank you so much for coming here and we will be more than happy to talk to your other siblings. [laugh] no I mean seriously, your mother is like- what is your oldest brother doing? Is he very busy? 55:13 NT: Oh, Zeki? 55:14 AD: Zeki is your brother? 55:17 NT: Yeah, Zeki is my oldest. 55:20 AD: I told you. 55:22 NT: Zeki is my oldest. 55:24 AD: You are kidding me? 55:26 NT: No, he is my oldest brother. 55:28 AD: Oh, we already talked to Zeki. Yeah, okay, never mind. So you guys did great as a family. 55:39 NT: Thank you. 55:40 AD: Oh, Zeki is your oldest brother? I did not know. 55:44 NT: Yeah. 55:44 AD: He told me and I was like no, I do not think so. I am like he is one of the community members 55:50 Leslie: I should be second guessing myself, so I was just like, okay. 55:53 AD: Oh my God, but you do not look like- I did not even think about it. 56:07 NT: Oh yeah, he is my oldest and Avras- he is older than me but he is my younger brother. 56:12 AD: Wait a minute, Avras is your brother? 56:16 Leslie: I told her that too. 56:18 AD: And I have been denying. I think you and Avras look so much- a lot, more than Zeki. 56:27 NT: Yeah, the girl- my sister, did you see my sister the other one next to me? That is his twin. 56:34 Leslie: Really? 56:35 NT: Yeah. 56:36 AD: Really? 56:37 NT: Yeah. 56:38 AD: But look, you look like Avras, she looks like Zeki right? 56:43 NT: Everybody says that. 56:45 AD: Listen! Oh my God. I did not know, so your whole family is adapted the entire organization. 56:55 NT: [laughs] Yeah, well- we with Karwan, you know- 57:00 AD: Do not tell me Karwan is your brother— 57:02 NT: No, no, no, we just, we feel it is so important for us to get these Kurdish clothes out, as we said before we are trying to get more people come join our force, our little force but you know, for people to come in join our group, but it takes them a little more time to. So I figure the more we can do the more we can show that, may be they will start opening up more. 57:20 AD: Do you know what Nergiz all the, I am so grateful to your entire family but that would be perfect to talk to your father. I bet his story would be like very, very interesting. 57:50 NT: My dad is in Kurdistan until June 6th or so. 57:59 AD: That is okay. 58:03 NT: He is there visiting his father but— 58:07 AD: Yeah, when he comes back because he was travelling probably exposed to so many other things. I think his story will be just so wonderful, you know very interesting. So may be when he comes back, Erdem is planning to be here this summer, we will see. 58:31 NT: Okay. 58:31 AD: So, in Kurdish. Even if Erdem, see the only bad thing is I can do it with your help but when he is saying something I am not going to be able understand, and what I am going to ask a question he already talked about. That is the only thing. NT: I mean I figured my mom understood Erdem when she was speaking to him and I feel like my dad will be able to understand him. 58:42 AD: As long as you are in the room I think Erdem can ask you if he has difficulty, asking the questions or something like that- 59:13 Leslie: I mean I can even help too. 59:16 AD: That is right, that is wonderful, the whole family. 59:23 NT: We are trying to do our part I think it is important- 59:30 AD: I think you guys are doing it, I mean doing great, really. That is really, really good. 59:35 NT: Yeah, I should have talked about- there is some things. 59:40 AD: What is it? 59:42 NT: No I was just saying because a lot of my friends like I can ask a lot of my friends to do this, they are just so busy, I mean not busy because I feel like if I am busy then, you know I will text them and I will see you are either taking me with Lesley, sometime but I just do not know why— 1:00:11 AD: But really more than your generation it is your mother’s and your father’s generation- I do not want to call them all because they are my generation obviously but it is like, because they have the experience or someone like Jotiyar, Ridwan because you’re so young you do not remember anything. I mean we still want to talk to young people like you, because then what I ask about your experience here, you know growing up as a Kurd in America. That is another part of our—so if you can ask you friends that will be great. 1:00:53 NT: Okay, yeah, I mean, I understand your point too, but I feel like all of our stories or I can talk on behalf of all of my friends, the experiences have been the same, coming to America, going to school you know and growing up— 1:01:11 AD: But you said your point was like being successful like school, everybody have different experience going on— 1:01:21 NT: My dad emphasizes, he was telling us every day and every day that your main focus is school (X3), like he would emphasize that a lot and that is why I feel like a lot of us have been Al-Hamdulillah a lot of us have been successful with school and have that mentality, you know have the school mentality. I can say the same thing for a lot of the people, not that they have not been successful but it was just school was not huge deal, you know their mentality was different so maybe they have a little bit experience and that way they are probably a little different that how I ‘ve been raised and grown up but other than that it is probably same same. 1:02:23 AD: Yeah, definitely. So are you the smartest in your family? 1:02:27 NT: Oh, I do not want to say that I am. I mean Avras is, they are just the boys are smart, they just do not like to imply- 1:02:35 AD: Avras is like a naughty boy. Was he naughty? He look like, his eyes I can say like mischievous, was he mischievous when he was little- 1:02:51 NT: Probably. 1:02:52 AD: He looks like he is the little mischievous, he still holds that look on his face. 1:02:56 NT: No, he the boys Zeki, Avras, and you have not met the other two but they are smart just the boys in Kurdish culture they do not like to imply themselves, they do not like to, as smart as they are, they do not like to imply that— 1:03:13 AD: In general, I think girls are different, they are like more focused. Seriously. So, Shiman is your other sister? 1:03:23 NT: Zhiman? Zhiyan- 1:03:24 AD: Zhiyan sitting next to you? 1:03:29 NT: Next to me yeah. 1:03:33 AD: She told me she is a teacher. 1:03:35 NT: She teaches right now, she teaches at future faces, I do not know if you are familiar with. It is called oh my God, they care for kindergartens, preschoolers, kindergarteners. So I think, I mean she teaches that level. He wants to continue but that was her, that was what she went to school for to teach and she wants to be able to teach English if ever go overseas or back home in Kurdistan. 1:04:12 AD: Does she want to go back to Kurdistan? 1:04:15 NT: She wants to- sometime and other times she is questioning— 1:04:20 AD: She is not sure- She is younger than you? 1:04:24 NT: No, she is older. 1:04:25 AD: She is older, than you! 1:04:26 NT: Then me and then I have two younger sisters. 1:04:31 AD: So, one is really young, the youngest is about Angelique’s age. 1:04:35 NT: Yeah, she is twelve. 1:04:39 AD: Angelique is ten, my daughter is ten. She is in middle school. And then the other one? 1:04:43 NT: She is coming to Binghamton University in the Fall. 1:04:45 AD: Really, what is she going to study? 1:04:49 NT: I have no idea. She wants to do something like me with medicals, pre-med or whatever but I tell her not to put pressure on herself until actually you see it, because I have put a lot of pressure on myself and my whole life. My whole life- I have put so much pressure on myself and I have taken on so many expectations like high standard of myself and all of that so I just with all that pressure I just tell her all the time I say do not put a lot of pressure on yourself, like live- because everybody tells me all the time you at way older than your age and I am just like I wish I did not do that— 1:05:36 AD: But you know what I was always like that, and I do not see that is a bad thing. 1:05:43 NT: No, it is not, neither, but you miss your childhood, I mean like you miss- 1:05:48 AD: But it is better than becoming looser- 1:05:50 NT: Yeah. [laugh] 1:05:51 AD: So, I think you are on the right direction- 1:05:56 NT: But I just tell her not to put a lot of pressure on herself and do what her heart- 1:06:00 AD: Yeah enjoy a little bit- Now I guess I think your time is up, I mean not my time, your time. Are you late? 1:06:03 NT: No. 1:06:04 AD: Okay, alright. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Nirgiz Taha Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4998a4670668f2cd24934fc295caa0be.mp3 748f5ce7b7551c56a66a12101c1e6da3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2/5/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Nora Kachadoourian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 44:17 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text Nora was born in Beirut, Lebanon to first-generation Armenian parents. When she was thirteen years old during the Lebanese Civil War, they moved to Montreal, Canada. Later on, she studied Business Administration at the University of Montreal. She currently resides in Binghamton with her husband. Together they have three children; Melanie, Jackie, and Henry. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"massacre; Syria; Turkey; Lebanon; language; Civil War; Sunday School; church; Christianity; traditions; food; diaspora; identity; Mount Ararat"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">massacre; Syria; Turkey; Lebanon; language; Civil War; Sunday School; church; Christianity; traditions; food; diaspora; identity; Mount Ararat Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Nora Kabakian Kachadourian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 5 February 2017 Interview Setting: Vestal, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:10 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s special collection library on Armenian Oral History Project. Today is February 5, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:23 NK: Nora Kabakian Kachadourian. 0:30 JK: Where were you born? 0:32 NK: Beirut, Lebanon. 0:34 JK: Who were your parents? 0:37 NK: Mihran Kabakian and Meline Kashukchian. 0:43 JK: Where were they from? 0:46 NK: My father was born in Antep, Turkey, and my mom was born in Lebanon. 0:55 JK: And why did they immigrate to Canada? 1:02 NK: Well from Turkey, Antep– my father during the massacre, they moved to Aleppo, Tur– Aleppo, Syria and from there, he moved to Lebanon. And my mom, from Bursa, Turkey, they moved to Syria and from Syria they moved to Beirut, Lebanon. And from there, during the civil war, in 1975, we moved to Montreal, Canada. 1:53 JK: What were the reasons for moving from Turkey to Syria? 1:58 NK: To survive the massacre, they moved, they were being killed during the massacre so the– my grandparents moved gradually from Armenia to Turkey and they were established in Turkey. And from there, slowly, gradually, they moved to Syria and from Syria to Lebanon. 2:31 JK: What happened in Turkey? What was going on that caused– did they have to leave walking– or what? What did they have to do to leave? 2:41 NK: Well they had to leave everything– uh– In Armenia, they had to leave their land, their houses, and gradually they moved to my father, my grandfather moved to Antep. He had a job as a, as a control–accountant controller in the established bank and from there, my father was born in Antep, Turkey and when he was around four or five, during nineteen-fifteen, the massacre, they slowly moved closest areas they could find, Aleppo, Syria. And then my mom’s side of my grandfather was working for– he was a tailor working for the Turkish army, he was a very well-known tailor, so that was how he escaped to Syria. They have them– his family– to move to Syria and from Syria they moved to Lebanon. 4:13 JK: Is there any stories living in Turkey that you can remember? From either side of your family? 4:21 NK: Well my father’s side, my father was young, maybe around four, he was born in Antep but his mother, well, they moved from Antep to Syria, Aleppo, he was– my grandmother’s brother was a lawyer, very well-established lawyer and he worked for the– in Turkey– and then– for the state– and they– my grandmother did not know but after nine–late nineteen–nineteen uh, (19)18 or (19)19, around that period of time, they somehow, they wanted to get rid of him and they hang him. And my grandmother did not know and when she– somebody told her like felt sorry about how they killed my grandmother’s brother, he– they, they told her what happened and my grandmother just did not know about it and when she heard it like that– three days after, she passed away from the news. It was horrifying to hear how her brother died. 6:15 JK: This is in Syria? 6:16 NK: Um, they– yeah they killer her in Turkey and she found out when she was in Syria and she passed away because– three days after she was in shock and my father was like orphan because, you know, lost her mom right after they escaped the massacre in 1915. 6:45 JK: And when did your parents meet? Or where did they meet? 6:51 NK: In Lebanon, my mom and met in Lebanon, through a friend and they got married. 7:00 JK: Which part of Lebanon? 7:02 NK: Beirut, Lebanon. 7:04 JK: And what year was this? 7:07 NK: Uh, late 1949. 7:12 JK: Did they ever want to go back to Turkey or Armenia? 7:18 NK: Uh, no. No. 7:21 JK: Have they ever been to Turkey or Armenia– I mean Armenia? 7:27 NK: Uh, my father has been but not my mom. 7:32 JK: Okay so, he went to Armenia? 7:35 NK: Yes, and also she– he was– because lost her mom, and he went and study in Jerusalem after visit Armenia and then he got the scholarship, he was very smart he got scholarship in Wyoming, United States. That was how he became a chemist, study in Wyoming University. 8:07 JK: After he studied in Wyoming he went back to Lebanon? 8:11 NK: Yes, and he started business in Lebanon, a textile fabric–you know, a textile company factory. He started in Lebanon. 8:25 JK: In Beirut? 8:26 NK: Beirut, Lebanon. 8:28 JK: Did both your parents work? 8:31 NK: My mom also work as– she was a tailor. 8:40 JK: And how long did you guys stay in Lebanon before leaving to Canada? 8:44 NK: We stayed until 1975. During the war, we went to Canada and my father left Lebanon in early (19)80s, after– because he had a factory he had to, you know, take care of it and then he came to Canada also. 9:15 JK: Did your parents go to school, high school or college? 9:19 NK: Yes. My mom went to high school and then went to a school and she became a tailor and my dad had several degrees in Chemistry. He went one semester, or one year to MIT in Massachusetts and then Wyoming University in Cheyenne. He has a degree in Chemistry. 10:00 JK: So how old was your father when he left Turkey? 10:04 NK: He was about four years old. 10:08 JK: Did he have any brothers or sisters? 10:12 NK: Yes, a sister and a brother. 10:15 JK: Are they still alive? 10:17 NK: No. 10:19 JK: Did they come to Canada too? Or– after they left Turkey? 10:23 NK: No, my aunt, her name is Mary Zenian, she moved to– from Lebanon she got married and soon she moved to New Jersey. 10:44 JK: And do they– do they remember anything that they told you about living in Turkey or what they did in Turkey? 10:53 NK: No, just they– to have a better life they– my father helped them and they moved to New Jersey to start a new life there. 11:11 JK: Is there any– before the genocide, did they get along with everyone in Turkey? 11:20 NK: Yes, they, they had jobs like I said my grandfather, his name was Edward Kabakian, he work for the bank, he was a controller for the bank and that was how he met his wife and when the wife came to the bank and they met and that was how they got married and then they moved– a few years after, they moved to Syria to survive because slowly everybody was moving in order to stay alive. 12:12 JK: Was– only the Armenians had to leave Turkey, or what happened that they had to leave, like? They–were they told to leave or they were going to kill them or what? 12:23 NK: Yes, they– while they can because people were getting killed and they already moved from Armenia, left their land, my grandfather, Edward, had land in Armenia, uh houses and they had to leave, they moved to Antep, Turkey and they had jobs there but, it was– things were getting worse because the World War I started in early 1914, (19)15, and, and it was, people in Turkey they were taking advantage of the war going on and so that was why they start to move– things were getting worse and they had to survive. That was how they went to closest cities, Aleppo, Syria, some moved to Egypt to Greece, Europe, France, so they were trying to survive. 13:44 JK: Did any of your family go anywhere else other than Syria? 13:49 NK: Well my mom’s side, from Bursa, to– they moved a lot of my mom’s side of family moved to France also to survive and a lot of people moved to Syria, so it depends. 14:14 JK: Did they ever– so the people told them to leave before they got into any trouble, right? 14:23 NK: Yes, like my father– my mother’s side, my grandfather’s name was Leon Kachakjian, and he was a very well know tailor in Bursa, Turkey. He was doing all the army outfits for the army and he had lots of friends and they help his family move to, from Bursa to Syria to survive because word got out that they were getting killed and there was some good friends of my grandfather he– they help them get away from the area and move outside of Turkey. 15:27 JK: Do you remember what year this was? 15:31 NK: 1915. 15:33 JK: So during the genocide? 15:42 NK: Yes. 15:38 JK: So did both of your parents speak Armenian? 15:42 NK: Yes. 15:44 JK: Did they speak any other languages? 15:46 NK: They also spoke Turkish and English and French. 15:52 JK: Did they write Armenian? 15:58 NK: Yes, very fluent in Armenian and also they spoke Turkish, and because they moved to Syria and after Lebanon, they spoke also Arabic. 16:12 JK: Did they know how to write Armenian? 16:15 NK: Yes, they knew how to write Armenian. 16:18 JK: Was it– Armenian their first language they learned how to write and read? 16:22 NK: Yes. 16:27 JK: Do you have any siblings? 16:28 NK: Yes, I have three brothers and a sister. 16:33 JK: And what is their age relative to you? 16:36 NK: I am the youngest and there–at least the oldest is fourteen years older than me. 16:46 JK: Can you say their names? 16:47 NK: Yes, my oldest brother is Leon, my other brother, Edward, and another brother Varoujan, and my sister Anahid and I am the youngest of all my siblings. 17:05 JK: Do your siblings have Armenian names? 17:14 NK: Yes, my oldest brother name is Levon which is an Armenian name, named after my grandfather who died and also Edouard is Armenian name for [inaudible], and Varoujan is an Armenian name and Anahid is also Armenian name. And my name is Armenian also. 17:42 JK: What is it– do they have any meanings? 17:46 NK: um, not that I know– 17:48 JK: Like Nora. 17:51 NK: Nora means new in Armenian. Anahid is– Ani is an Armenian city, Ani is named after that and Varoujan also means strong in Armenian but that is all. 18:16 JK: When they came to–when you guys came to Canada did you guys change your names to English or French names? 18:23 NK: Well, we– there is a certain version like Levon is Leon and Anahid short for Ani so my sister made it shorter but we kept in our passport is the Armenian names. 18:48 JK: Now did your parents speak Armenian to you when you guys were growing up? 18:53 NK: Yes, Armenian. 18:54 JK: Is that the first language you guys learned? 18:57 NK: Yes, it is the first language. 19:01 JK: Was there any other languages you guys learned growing up? 19:04 NK: Yes, we spoke French also and of course we had to speak Arabic also and we understand a little bit of Turkish. 19:21 JK: Did your parents ever speak Turkish to you so you would not understand in the household. 19:25 NK: Yes. I believe my grandparents, they spoke Turkish and also sometimes my parents also spoke, so we do not understand but we picked up– that was how we picked up the– that was how I know a little bit of Turkish by hearing them speak while growing up. 19:55 JK: Now, growing up, was there a large Armenian community in Lebanon? 20:00 NK: Yes, we– I grew up in a big Armenian community in Beirut, Lebanon. We went to Armenian and also Armenian and French school in Lebanon. The name is Nishan Palandjian Jemaran, which is Armenian. 20:26 JK: Did you guys speak Armenian in this school or French? 20:53 NK: We had to speak Armenian and learn Armenian history in Armenian and we spoke French and French history in French language and secondary language would be considered English. [audio is inaudible] And also, we had to speak Arabic and the history in Arabic language. 21:06 JK: Did you have any Armenian friends growing up? Were they all Armenian, your friends in high school and school? 21:13 NK: Yes, we had a lot of Armenian friends but there were a lot of French friends and– from Europe there were a lot of people from different countries, especially Europe, in Lebanon. It was a very international city so we had different friends from different areas. 21:46 JK: Now, the people you were growing up with, did they have to– why did, why did they– do you remember why they came to Syria– I mean Lebanon? Was it because of the– 21:57 NK: For better jobs and also its Christian country and there was a lot of opportunities for new jobs and we had different schools¬¬¬-French English and so people had the choices that they could enjoy, uh, whatever they prefer. 23:22 JK: Did they – did some come from Armenia or Turkey during the genocide? Do you remember? Like the– your– the students– the Armenian community. 23:30 NK: Oh yes, they used to come from all over to the Armenian school because there was people from Africa, my sister friend was from Europe and they came to learn Armenia in Lebanon because it was very well known–established Armenian school and so they come from all over the world to study at that school. 23:22 JK: Did anybody come from Turkey or Armenia that you remember that had to escape the genocide? 23:30 NK: A lot of people came besides my family from Aleppo and then they came to Lebanon there was a lot of Armenians. 23:45 JK: Did your– do you remember any stories they told you about leaving? 23:59 NK: Yes, it was very hard for them to leave everything; their land, their belongings in order to survive and how– some people helped them survive. Some died on their way to escape, they died because they were ‘fleding’, it depends what areas they were from in Turkey and some were fortunate, some died trying to escape during the massacre. 24:40 JK: Did you go to– was there an Armenian church where you grew up? 24:45 NK: Yes. Within walking distance there was an Armenian church and every Sunday my mom always tried to go Armenian Church and it was very convenient. 25:07 JK: What was it like growing up in Beirut? 25:11 NK: It was very nice area growing up in Beirut until the war, Civil War started and we had to move again. But growing up I had good memories in Beirut, Lebanon and uh and a lot of people that we knew moved from Turkey to survive and then they got established in Beirut, Lebanon. And we had a big Armenian community and it was, you know, the Lebanese people help– the– there was a– growing up– and then it was hard to move again because the Civil War in Lebanon, yes, because the nineteen seventies the war was pretty bad in Lebanon so that was how people moved to United States, Canada, Europe. 26:22 JK: So do you– 26:34 NK: It was déjà vu again for us because again we had to move again from Lebanon to Canada. 26:43 JK: Did you move before Lebanon or–? 26:46 NK: My grandparents move from Turkey to Lebanon. I was born in Beirut, Lebanon. 26:56 JK: Did anybody stay in Lebanon? 26:58 NK: Oh yes, there is a– I have some family– my–some of my aunts are still in Lebanon and some of my cousins. They stayed in Lebanon. There is a lot of Armenians right now in Lebanon. 27:17 JK: Now, why– why would you decide to go to Canada instead of the United States? 27:26 NK: Um, we could have went to United States but it was kind of easy for us– my mom’s sister was in Montreal, Canada and she, she helped us move there but I– we could have moved to New Jersey also because my father’s sister was in New Jersey also but it was easier at that time when we were escaping Lebanon, uh, it was easier to get to Canada somehow. 28:05 JK: Did all of you guys leave at the same time? 28:07 NK: No, my brothers and sisters they moved to Montreal, Canada to Cyprus–they went from Cyprus to Canada. And also my– one of my brothers Edouard Kabakian, he had a– won a scholarship from Lebanon in early 1974 and, uh, he went to Montpellier, France. So since then, he lives in France right now so he moved from Lebanon to France. 28:54 JK: Did he ever join you in Canada or he lived in France this whole time? 28:58 NK: No during– before the war started in 1973, (19)74, he won a scholarship, he was very smart in Lebanon so he moved to France to study and– 29:17 JK: Did he ever move to Canada? 29:20 NK: No he never moved to Canada. He– from Lebanon he move to France because he was studying, he had a scholarship and he had to– he just established– after he study he stayed in France. 29:39 JK: And what did your parents do in Lebanon? What did they– where did they work or what did they do? 29:45 NK: My father opened a textile factory in Lebanon. He was the first person to open a textile factory and he worked there and, and then my brother, Levon Kabakian, he also study– my father send him, uh, study in Switzerland in the same type of, uh field, in chemistry textile– chemistry and from there my fa–brother got his education in Switzerland and then he worked for several textile companies in Canada and my sister also went to university in Lebanon, it is called AUB, American University in Lebanon. And then she continued her education in Canada and also my youngest brother went– study in Canada also, University of Concordia. 31:14 JK: Did– how old were all of you guys when you guys left Lebanon? 31:22 NK: Um, I was thirteen years old when I moved from Lebanon to Montreal. I believe my brother was in–eighteen when he moved to Canada. My sister in her twenties and they moved to Canada. 31:54 JK: So you guys left because of the war that was going on? 31:58 NK: Yes, we tried to escape the Civil War. 32:01 JK: Was there any experiences or any encounters you had while growing up in the area? That was, like, bad? 32:10 NK: Well in 1975 two of my brothers and my sister moved– tried to catch a, like a small boat and then went to Cyprus. From there, they stayed there and then from there they tried to move to Montreal, Canada. But I was there on one side of Lebanon with my mom and my dad was stuck on the other side of Lebanon in this factory. So we did not see each other for at least six months because the borders were tight and there was a, a war going on between Christians and Muslims in Lebanon. It was kind of very, you know, very bad situation because you could not communicate and in order to survive we had to go– me and my mom for a long time, I was young we were stuck in the house and just survive you had to go get water and bread and there was–– everything was shut on one side. People were getting killed and it was a miracle we survived. A lot of neighbors not far from us died because there was a lot of bombs falling, air strikes and, and then, uh, when there was a cease fire, that was when we tried to get our passport and move– tried to move somewhere safe and that was where we1977 we tried to come to Montreal, Canada, I was like thirteen-year-old. Me and my mom when the airports were open, we, we tried to gather our stuff and move to Montreal, Canada and then eventually my dad also came to Montreal, Canada, and also he lost his factory it was destroyed and lost everything so we had to start all over in Montreal, Canada. 35:07 JK: Now what did they do in Montreal? Did they– 35:12 NK: We– I went to school and, uh, and my brothers and sisters they went to school and had jobs and then slowly, you know, we worked and graduate school and, you know. 35:30 JK: Did you guys go to Armenian school at all in Can–Montreal? 35:37 NK: No, we were– we just went to French high school there and a university but we have an Armenian school and there is a big Armenian community in Montreal because Lebanon– and people moved during the war from Lebanon to Canada to United States and they, of course, they started establishing Armenian schools and for the new generations. 36:22 JK: Was there a large Armenian community when you went to Montreal? 36:26 NK: Yes, we had a, a lot– at least three, four Armenian churches and two Armenian schools in Montreal, Canada. 36:40 JK: Did you attend bible school or Armenian language school in Lebanon or Montreal? 36:48 NK: No, I went to Armenian Bible Sunday School, we called it. Yes, I attended but because I went to–when I was young I went in Lebanon Armenian school, I, I did not need to continue learn, but people who do not– did not know Armenian, there was programs they could sign up to learn Armenian and eventually after they, uh, they built the Armenian school– first it was elementary then all the way to high school. 37:31 JK: So after you went to high– finished high school, did you go to college in Ar–Montreal? 37:39 NK: Yes, I went college. I study Business Administration. 37:45 JK: And, where was it? 37:46 NK: In University of Montreal. 37:51 JK: And then how did you end up coming to the United States and living here? 37:59 NK: Um, I was, uh, working in Montreal and also attending, uh, education. When I my aunt in North Jersey, I wanted us to visit her and also invited us to Armenian event in North Jersey. So my mom and I drove there to visit my aunt in North Jersey and she took us to a Armenian church and– 38:42 JK: Do you remember the name? 38:43 NK: Yeah, it is The Armenian Church in St. Thomas, North Jersey. And she wanted us go there for a, I think it was a mother’s day luncheon, after church and I took my mom and we went there and that was how I met my husband, Mark Kachadourian, because he is from Binghamton and he went to that luncheon in North Jersey from Binghamton area to– there was a church’s event. So that was how I met him over there in New Jersey. 39:37 JK: And how did you guys meet? 39:39 NK: In– during– after church there was luncheon sponsored by St. Thomas Church that was how I met Mark Kachadourian. 39:52 JK: But, did you guys, like– 39:58 NK: We just met– the– there was a lot of Armenians attended from Binghamton to the St. Thomas Church in New Jersey and that was how a lot of people met each other during the lunch. 40:17 JK: How did you guys start– did you guys talk with other Armenians, or what? 40:23 NK: Yes, from different region because I was from Canada and my aunt was from New Jersey and they, they– we share a big round table and that was how we met, uh, a lot of Armenians from this area, Binghamton and the New Jersey area. 40:50 JK: So, who was– how did your aunt end up in North Jersey, and which side? 40:56 NK: My father’s sister, Mary Zenian from Syria, shortly after she got married and they move– tried to come to New Jersey, they got in a boat and they escaped the Syria and came to North Jersey in early 1930s, I think. It was around 1930s, they moved to– from Syria they came to North Jersey. 41:45 JK: Now, why did not your father go to– 41:48 NK: My father went to– he had a scholarship to study in Wyoming. He travelled all over and then he came to New Jersey but then he wanted to open his factory in Lebanon and that was how he established in Lebanon after he had his studies in United States, he went back and opened a factory in Lebanon. 42:27 JK: Did he meet your, uh, your mom in– after or before he studied in Wyoming? 42:36 NK: After he studied in Wyoming. 42:40 JK: Was there a large community in the Armenian community in North Jersey? 42:46 NK: Yes, it was big Armenian community, also they have Armenian school in New Jersey and, and a few churches, a lot of churches. 43:05 JK: Now, growing up in Montreal, in high school, did you guys have– did you have Armenian friends or non-Armenian friends? 43:11 NK: We had so many and–French and Armenian friends and Lebanese friends. A lot of different nationality. 43:27 JK: Did you all intermingle with each other or have distinct groups? 43:33 NK: Yes, we mingled with each other, yes. 43:39 JK: But did you have– only if you hung out with your French friends and then hung out with your Armenian friends or they all hung out with each other? 43:50 NK: Uh, some of my French uh they were really interested, uh, talking to my father from work– they always come visit, they like to hear the stories that my father had. But also we had Armenian friends and old friends– 44:14 Unknown: No 44:14 NK: So? 44:15 Unknown: Lady Gaga. 44:25 JK: Okay, so what were some of the family traditions you kept in your household that related to Armenian culture? 44:38 NK: We had several tradition. Its– but we always talked about the Armenian history, um, and how our ancestors tried to keep our heritage going-our culture and, uh, we, we are a nation of rich culture. We have a– our own alphabet– very unique– our own stories and we have a very unique Armenian dance and– 45:31 JK: So can you name some of the examples of the culture that is kept in your family? 45:41 NK: We always spoke Armenian so that is very– keep our children informed with our rich language which is very unique alphabet and, uh, we have very good Armenian songs that we sang and special dances we dance and we always– very religious nation. We are the first Arm– nation to be Christian– to accept Christianity. So, uh, we always kept our religious background and taught our children our language and our religion. 46:34 JK: So what were some traditions that your parents would maintain in the household? Maybe certain foods, songs? 46:47 NK: Uh, yes, we have Armenian song, a very, uh, uh, known– it is a– about our Armenian nation and how we survive and wherever we go, we build a churches and schools and we keep going wherever, uh, we go we always get together and make Armenian food and we have a– our special Armenian Christmas which is always on January 6 and we make a special Easter, we make a special bread. It is çörek, it is called çörek and we have several different holidays, we get together and celebrate and on Easter, always we go church and Armenian Christmas always comes on January 6. We try to go and celebrate. It is different and we have our Independence Day which is May 28, we celebrate. And, of course, on April 24, the genocide we always try to remember and pay our tributes and, uh, that is our cultures keeps going and our ̶ remember our heritage and how our ancestors, you know, went through a lot to keep our Armenian culture alive. 48:45 JK: So what kind of Armenian food did you guys have that was kept in the household? 48:55 NK: Uh, we have– we make of course a lot of rice, we call it pilav, and with a lot of– we have different rice, we call it pilav, which is a very traditional food with pasta– different pastas and Armenian string cheese. We have dried fruits– several different types of dried fruits and, and we have– very similar to Middle Eastern food and its very similar because as a neighbor– when we were growing up we have similar food– Mediterranean– it is a different food. 49:57 JK: Did you have Armenian food in Lebanon, or was it Lebanese food or was it–? 50:04 NK: It is Armenian-Lebanese combination. It is very similar, we have stuffed grape leaves which is similar to Lebanese food and– 50:18 JK: Do you have the Armenian name for what it is called? 50:23 NK: We call it– grape leaves– we call it sarma– yalancı, but which is also certain name are Turkish also, we have a lot of sweet, helva which is also used by Turks and Arabs also. So very similar. 50:53 JK: Would you– what kind of foods would you– or traditions did you have during Armenian Christmas or Easter– Armenian Easter? 51:04 NK: Well, uh, Armenian Easter– we have– we color eggs and then we have Armenian bread which we call çörek which is kind of like braided, nice Armenian bread. We have that and also we have lamb dinner and some rice, things like that. 51:37 JK: Do you ever play the egg game? 51:39 NK: Yes, and after church services has an Armenian tradition. We get together and play some egg that we colored before and we play the egg with each other and then eat some Armenian çörek and celebrate the Easter. 52:07 JK: So, in Armenian, your last name says what you did. What does Kabakian? 52:21 NK: It is, uh, mean ‘kabak’ means pumpkin in Turkish so that is how they call the Kabakian that is our name is from. 52:38 JK: So did your family who lived in Armenia or Turkey, they sold– worked on a pumpkin farm or sold– 52:46 NK: Yes, they had a lot of– in Armenia, my great grandfathers they had land and they had vineyards. That is why they called them ‘kabak’, because they had, I guess, pumpkins and– on their land. 53:11 JK: What about from your mom’s side? 53:13 NK: My mom’s side, her name is Kashukjian [Kaşıkçıyan, Turkish version] I think it is– what its mean is they used to make silver spoons so when they refer about them they meant the family who builds– makes those silver spooks that is what it means kaşık, Kaşıkçıyan that is what it means I think in Turkey. 53:45 JK: What about– the same in Armenian? 53:48 NK: Spoon in Armenian is trgal this is in Turkish; I think it means the person who makes the silver spoons. 54:03 JK: So did the Armenian words– were they similar to Turkish words? 54:10 NK: No, it is because they lived in–– my grandfather on my mom’s side lived in Bursa and they, they had to speak in Turkish and that was how they called them the person who makes the spoons and I– that is why they call them Kaşıkçıyan. 54:44 JK: So how old were you when you got married? 54:48 NK: I was twenty-seven years old. 54:51 JK: And did you– is your husband an Armenian? 54:55 NK: Yes, he is. 54:56 JK: Is he a hund– are you a 100 percent Armenian? 54:58 NK: Yes, I a 100 percent Armenian. 55:01 NK: And your husband? 55:02 JK: He is a 100 percent Armenian. 55:05 NK: And how do you feel about marrying an Armenian? Did you want to marry Armenian– or did it matter? 55:12 JK: Yes, as I said in my family, we were stronger believer to, to meet Armenian and get married Armenian because of all our grandparents and great grandparents went through to, uh, keep our culture our race alive and we– the least we can, uh, do if we meet Armenian and marry an Armenian for our–keep our heritage. 55:50 NK: Did your parents want you to marry Armenian? 55:53 JK: Of course, but it was our choice but, uh, it was up to us. 56:00 NK: Did your ̶ other brothers and sister, did they marry Armenians as well? 56:07 JK: Um, one brother and– who lives in France, married a French but my other brothers and sister married an Armenian. 56:17 JK: Now did they still have Armenian culture in their– 56:22 NK: Yes, they– 56:23 JK: –household. 56:24 NK: –my brother who lives in France, they try to keep Armenian culture and they sometime make Armenian food and invite their friends and introduce them to Armenian food and talk about the Armenian history and they and also their names are one hundred percent Armenian also. 56:53 JK: Now, how important would you say was it to teach Armenian culture to your children? 57:02 NK: It was important, but this– in Binghamton we do not have any Armenian school, we have a small Armenian church and when my kids were young, we always went to– and took them to Sunday schools so they learned some Armenian song and also some Armenian dance and, uh, we used to have every year Armenian dance and we tried to take them so they see how it was, the Armenian culture. We have very small Armenian community in Binghamton. 57:46 JK: Was it hard switching from Montreal which has a lot of Armenian population to Binghamton which has very little– 57:55 NK: Yes, it was hard to adjust, you know, because it was very small Armenian community. But we tried to go sometimes in bigger cities, New Jersey, and Philadelphia and also California there is a lot of large Armenian community. 58:22 JK: Well what made you want to move to Binghamton? 58:27 NK: My husband’s job was here and we met in New Jersey, like I said, in Armenian church and, um, and we, because his job was here so we moved here after we got married in New Jersey we moved to Binghamton. 58:49 JK: So, growing up in Binghamton, have you seen any strong Armenian community or not so much? 59:02 NK: They try, uh, to, uh, keep the Armenian culture and community but it is hard, they need a lot of help. A lot of people are from here– a lot of Armenians, but they all moved and there is not a lot of younger people in this community. A lot of the Armenians moved for– out of this area to the city. 59:47 JK: So do any of your children speak Armenian? 59:52 NK: Yes, my oldest daughter and my two daughters they speak but my son does not speak that well. 1:00:05 JK: So they two –can you name your children? 1:00:08 NK: My oldest, Melanie, second oldest, Jackie, and my youngest is Henry. 1:00:21 JK: So, how come none of them has learned Armenian in Armenian school properly? Like at writing– 1:00:33 NK: Because, uh, we– I could teach them but I– they–there is no Armenian school near us, also they do not have any Armenian Sunday school anymore and also they outgrew, it was for young, young children. And, uh, we have church services every two weeks in our Armenian church. And like it is a very small community. 1:01:13 JK: So, did– do your family in Montreal or North Jersey, do they know Armenian, their children? 1:01:20 NK: Yes, all of my nieces and nephews they write and speak Armenian and one of my niece attends Armenian school and she is going to graduate this year. So yeah, they all speak and write in Armenian. 1:01:46 JK: Were you upset that– did you want your children to learn Armenian? 1:01:52 NK: Yes, we speak Armenian but I can always teach them if they are interested to write also in Armenian and, of course, we do not have that advantage here because we do not have Armenian schools or classes at Binghamton University that they can take. Other universities, they offer Armenian lessons and– but Binghamton University do not provide Armenian language. 1:02:32 JK: How would you describe the culture of the home– household spreading Armenian ideas and things like that? What things have remained constant? Like growing up compared– 1:02:53 NK: We always tried to speak a little bit of Armenian in our household and always sang some Armenian songs and talked about our flag, what it means, different things we always talked about and, uh, we liked to watch different TV shows sometimes that has Armenian articles in it. We are always interested in our culture. 1:03:33 JK: So have you ever travelled to Turkey or Armenia? Back to where your father was born? 1:03:40 NK: Uh, no, no. I have not but my sister’s daughters, they been to Armenia and Turkey also my brother’s daughter been to Armenia recently and, uh, we always ask questions and see the pictures– we are so interested and we like to go one day, visit our homeland. 1:04:11 JK: So you want to go to Armenia someday? 1:04:13 NK: Yes, it is a dream to go Armenia and visit our land and see our churches and to see all of that. It is very important. 1:04:28 JK: So, right now, do you attend church regularly? 1:04:35 NK: On major holidays I try to go, last time I was at church was during Easter. I– it is hard with the busy schedule but I used to go more often than I am right now. 1:04:55 JK: Would you say that you identify as– what would you say that you would identify as your homeland? 1:05:05 NK: It is a– I– it is where my ancestor were. It is–I like to see. 1:05:13 JK: Which country? 1:05:15 NK: My– I consider Armenia my country– my roots– because my roots are from there and I always want to visit and see. 1:05:28 JK: So, how do you view the diaspora? Diaspora. The Armenians in the, the United States. 1:05:45 NK: Um, they are a– they are, they are Armenians that survive and they try to keep the culture alive–they are– it is not easy, uh, being Armenian. It is, it is always we got to remind our self what our ancestor went through for us to be, to have better life here in United States. Their sacrifice a lot for us. What we could do is remember and, uh, keep our culture alive. 1:06:26 JK: So do you think it has its own identity here in the United States or in Montreal compared to Armenia? 1:06:33 NK: Yes, to– of course. We are Armenians but we are not living in Armenia, we are living outside of Armenia and there are differences between us but we are all Armenians, were united. That is what counts. 1:06:56 JK: So how would you identify yourself? 1:07:01 NK: Uh, Armenian, um, that I want to remember where my ancestor came from and keep our tradition alive and our language– use our language and always remember our history and what we went through to be here today. 1:07:28 JK: Would you also identify yourself as Canadian, American, like Armenian first or– 1:07:37 NK: I am Armenian first but I do not forget where I was born and then where I grew up in Canada and–and then I moved to United States. I am a person of multi-culture. [laughs] 1:07:57 JK: Which, uh, country do you think has the strongest sense of Armenian pride? And culture? That you have lived in? 1:08:22 NK: The Armenians in Lebanon. Very, very strong. Also in Canada. 1:08:28 JK: And why do you say that? 1:08:25 NK: Oh, because as– I remember as a– growing up in Lebanon, uh, we– they always talk about the Armenian history how we survive and wherever we go we built our churches and we built, uh– and we stay together and there were strong believer so as a young child I remember how important it was to keep our culture in Lebanon especially. 1:09:00 JK: Was it important for your children to be raised in an Armenian orthodox? 1:09:07 NK: Yes, it is important but it is hard when you do not have a big Armenian community. 1:09:21 JK: Was there anything in, uh, your house that represents Armenian and where you co– come from? 1:09:30 NK: We had a lot of books and my father had lots of books and, um, always pictures and– of our history and we always read and sang the Armenian songs and, uh, we had a lot of poems that we read about how the Armenians survived and, uh, we always, uh, you know, enjoyed our rich culture. 1:10:06 JK: Do you remember any of the poems or songs? 1:10:09 NK: Yes, as– we had a nice Armenian poem– it was always said wherever we go, wherever happens we always built the Armenian Church and Armenian community. No matter how hard they try to erase us from out– this planet we always come– get together, survive and, uh, that was a very strong Armenian poem we always read and remembered. 1:10:43 JK: Do you remember who it was by? Who said it? 1:10:52 NK: I, uh, I do not remember right now but I [laughs] I just cannot recall but it is a famous writer. 1:11:10 JK: So [clears throat] do you have anything else– other than the poems or books or songs like paintings? 1:11:18 NK: Oh yes we have a paintings of Mount Masis and Mount Ararat from our Armenian land, its beautiful pictures and paintings, uh, uh, so when we have a exhibition I enjoy going and looking at those paintings those– we have a lot of Armenian paintings of churches on top of the mountains. We have a lot of beautiful paintings in Armenian history– in Armenia. 1:12:00 JK: So do you think Christianity is an important part of being Armenian? 1:12:05 NK: Yes, because we were the first nation to accept Christianity and, uh, we sacrifice so much to become a Ar– Armenian Christian and it is very unique and our–we celebrate January six as Armenian Christmas and its very old fashion. It is very unique with Christianity. 1:12:44 JK: Do you think it is important for your children to marry Armenians? 1:12:47 NK: Of course, it is their choice as well of course it is important to keep our culture going, our Christianity. 1:13:06 JK: So, do you have anything else to add–or? I think I am all set. 1:13:12 NK: Well just to say Armenians, we, uh, we are a survivors and wherever we go, we get together and we do not forget our language and where we came from and it is not easy to be Armenian but I am very be proud Armenian and speak our Armenian language and culture. I am very proud to be Armenian. 1:13:44 JK: Okay thank you. 1:13:48 NK: You are welcome. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Nora Kachadourian