87 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b95df1eaf662d4e4f881efde7fa32246.mp3 9e4263b73886217b4e37fc51f8a62be5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. 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Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Riggins, Olga Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Caganek, Anna Date of Interview 1978-04-27 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 27:45 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56008">Interview with Olga Riggins</a> Subject LCSH Riggins, Olga -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Children of immigrants -- Interviews; Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees; Hotels -- Employees Carlova Perfume Factory; Hotel Billingshurst; Christ the King Church Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Mrs. Olga Riggins Interviews by: Anna Caganek Date of interview: 27 April 1978 Anna: I am Anna Caganek, the interviewer, talking to Olga Riggins. 302 Kent Ave, Endwell, New York. On April 27, 1978. Okay, so…now you could tell me about your life and your experiences. Olga: Well, my parents were born in Europe. See, my father came from Uhersky Brod. He was born in 1884, and my mother was born in Holicek [sic], 1896. Her maiden name was Konecny. They had a 5 year courtship in Europe, before they were married. Then they settled down and had a grocery store. Two children were born in Europe and my father came to this country in 1910. And one of his first jobs was working in the Fairbanks for about 7 dollars a week. And they moved in with some relatives - I remember that. It was very reasonable - I remember that. And let’s see…after that… I don’t know his other jobs, but…oh, one boy was born in America, he lived to be about a year old. And there was a cholera epis-epidemic at the time. So he died. And then about a year later, I was born. And I was born right on Glenwood Ave. And downstairs was a grocery store and that my mother was working there, too. What else for now…? No? [foreign] Well, let’s see…where else do we go from there? Anna: Take your time. Olga: Well, my father had an education in Europe - a business course. So he was a businessman, even in Europe. So when he came to this country, he started up a store on Clinton St. I think the number was 186 at the time…and then I think at that address, two more brothers were born. And he had the store, and he framed pictures, and he sold religious articles, and all kind of foreign cards in all the First Ward, very popular store. And then much later, he had another store on 60 Glenwood Ave. And at that address, my sister was born; she was the last of the six children. Let’s see, after she had six children, um…yeah, my parents not only had a store - they also had an icehouse. And that was very interesting because all the children helped, including myself. I almost forgot about that…that was really good. Yeah, and everybody came with their cars and wagons, business was good. We really, really enjoyed it. It was a gold mine. Anna: How much was the ice then? Olga: Oh! Well, the ice? 50 cents for 100 pounds, and I think 10 cents for 25 pounds. I used to enjoy working there. That was really fun. Anna: A time when there was no refrigerators? Olga: Yeah, there was no refrigerators at the time, so that was good. And you, there was a nice hotel across the street from us, a, a hotel. Hutta’s Hotel. That was really nice; I remember that. And where a beautiful garden there was around there. And the people across the street would get their beer, they go with pitchers, buy their beer across the street. That was really nice. Now there’s a gas station. Let’s see, after that? I’m trying to think…well, I got married when I was living on Glenwood Ave. I met my husband in a shoe factory, and we have one son. Let’s see…I think I stayed about 3 years in E. J.’s [Endicott Johnson]. And then, um…before then or afterwards, I worked in a restaurant as a short order cook for about 2 years. And at one time, I put in a couple years at Carlova Perfume Factory. That was interesting. Anna: What did they do there? Olga: At Carlova’s? Anna: Mm-hm. Olga: Well, we were packing things. Some of them filled powder boxes, some filled the perfume bottles. I remember packing bath salts, packing bath salts and putting them in boxes. That was interesting work, but that was just part time. And I was also a maid in a Hotel Billinghurst, which is gone now. That was interesting work, too. Anna: What were you doing? Olga: I was a maid. I was a maid in the Hotel Billinghurst for a couple years. And I spent a lot of time working in a store. See, I enjoyed selling things; I helped a lot in the icehouse and in a store. That kept me pretty busy. And let’s see, what else? Dan? Dan, my husband, was a furnace man - he installed furnaces. That was good work. And he retired…oh, I guess he was, you know, 62. Only 62 years old, he retired. Anna: And what does your son do? Olga: Oh, yeah. Our son has a good job. He works in the Gas and Electric Company. He went to Broome Tech. for 2 years; that was his education. And he is doing doing very well working for the Gas and Electric Company for the last, about 11 years now. Anything else now? Um, that’s our tape, our tape. What about my sister? Well, we don’t care about her - she getting [unintelligible] Anna: You could tell ‘em. Olga: Well, let’s see…should I tell ‘em about my brother’s [unintelligible]? They don’t care about that. Let’s see…the second oldest brother died. He worked in Links. He died about 5 years ago, and then almost 2 years ago, a younger brother died. He worked for the printing company: Hall Printing. He died. The rest of us live. Anna: And you could say that! Olga: And the rest of us live. Well, only 2 died and there’s 4 out of 6, so that isn’t so bad. Anna: How many children did your mother have? Olga: 6 - well, one died, so that was actually 7. 7. Anna: 7. Olga: There was 7, so there’s 4 survivors. And my father had interesting work. when the people want to send money to Europe, he was very handy. He had a business with a bank in New York, and the people would bring their money. He was a very good, experienced man - a good writer and a businessman. So they would pay him a small fee and he would send their money to Europe. That was a good service for the people in the First Ward. They enjoyed sending a little money to Europe and he liked to do that for them. And he was one of the first people to have a car. We lived on Clinton St. Nobody else had a car. His first Ford…boy, that was, everybody liked that. They would go for a ride. Anna: You don’t know what year, right? Olga: Oh, I’m trying to think if it was 1923? Anna: Mm. Olga: About 1923 ‘cause I’m standing on the train and I was born in 1916. Let’s see…he did that, what else did he do? Of course, back to Europe again, it’s too late for that. Anna: No. Olga: Too late? While my mother was in Europe, her father had a good job.  He was like an overseer, sort of like a plantation, and my mother was a young girl. And she used to weed out the sugar cane. I remember her telling me that. Anna: Mm. Olga: She was very active and liked liked to help out, so she enjoyed weeding out the sugar cane; that was one of her jobs. And then her mother wanted her to learn how to be a good cook and learn outside things, so she was hired out to a school teacher in Europe. So she cooked for a school teacher and lived in a very nice place. They had peacocks and everything there - I remember that. And lot of these fancy dogs. So my mother was, um, learning how to cook. And she was housekeeper and cook in this nice home. And after she got married, and my father told her she can’t work there anymore, so she enjoyed that. And when the school teacher took sick, my mother took over the class. She let her take over. This must’ve been a lower grade, I guess so. Any, elementary school. So my mother was smart enough to take over when the lady couldn’t make it. Anna: Mm-hm. Olga: That was a good job. There’s a lady here in Binghamton that worked for the same household: Mrs. Mizule. [sic] She worked for the same household. Yeah…and I always thought I could go to Europe sometime, but I don’t know…still hoping. And I, well, they don’t have to know about that cousin that, she died. She was the one that encouraged me to come. Yeah, she encouraged me to come. My cousin, Anna Kocecny. She really wanted me to come and the poor soul, she died Easter Day. She told me if I came to Europe, she’d show me where my grandparents lived, where they’re buried, all the interesting things. And especially, I’d like to see that castle where she had been working as a hostess. Someday, maybe I’ll still get there. ‘Cause I still have a few cousins there. Anna: About the baths? Olga: Oh, they have these mineral baths in Europe that, a lot of the Americans go there. And I heard so many people that go to Europe tell me about those mineral baths - the Health Baths. Now, that’s one of the places I’d like to go. The Health Bath…that would really be something. Anna: Is, is that the one that’s in Carlsbath, or…? Olga: No, that’s, uh…the one, um…it’s near Trnava. It’s, um…who has - Trnava, and what’s that other town? Oh, oh, I’ve heard of them. Anna: [unintelligible] Olga: No, no, no, I’ve heard it because they’ve been there. I can’t think of it now. [unintelligible] You know, those mineral baths, and it’s…their climates are so different there, their summers come early. And Americans come to this castle to be entertained. Someday, I gotta go there, see for myself all the things I hear about. And the same cousin said if I don’t get there, that our children and her children should get together and look over our European country where our ancestors came from. Anna: Mm. Olga: Gee, that’s a long tape. Anna: Yeah, it’s some [unintelligible] gonna say [unintelligible] Olga: Goodness. What else is new? Anna: And about your husband, what does he do? Olga: Well, he’s retired now. Anna: No? Olga: Well, he’s retired, but yeah…Dan’s re-Dan’s retired. Anna: He never worked in - oh, yeah! He worked in E. J. Johnson, right? Olga: Oh, yeah; 20 years. Yeah, Dan worked in E.J.’s 20 years and he got no benefits at the time. There was no Social Security, nothing. No retirement. 20 years for nothing. Very, you know, cheap labor, yeah. He put in 20 years. Then he worked for the various different, um, heating companies: Glenwood Heating and Statewide Heating. He worked for all of them. So he was very well-experienced with the, all kind of heating problems. Anna: Mm-hm. Olga: And he was very efficient around the house ‘cause anything breaks down…yeah, he could fix everything. Anna: And what, what did you do for entertainment? Olga: For entertainment? Not much. Anna: [laughs] Olga: Watch TV. No, I’m the kind that likes to go places and do things. I do a lot of volunteer work, I go to state hospital every month… Anna: Tell me about that. Olga: What, the state hospital? Anna: About when you come there and… Olga: What we do in the state hospital? Anna: Yeah. Olga: Well, I enjoy it because every month, we do something different. Now, I have lot of fun there because I never bowled in my life, and now I went bowling again. That was fun. And, uh, I’ve never been to a hayride. You go to the state hospital as a volunteer, I really enjoyed doing the things that the patients do. And they get to know you after a while. Then I go to Western Broome, made a lot of friends within the year. I got lot of friends in Western Broome because we have trips, and dinner dances, cover dish. And we have a lot of good times and I met a lot of nice people there. Anna: What ch-? Olga: Oh, and of course - what church? Anna: Not, no, what church did you go to? Olga: Well, I belong to Christ the King in Endwell, and I belong to Legion of Mary, Altar Rosary, uh, Golden Age. Very busy lady. Anna: [chuckles] Olga: I really enjoy being with people, and helping people, and being useful. Helping out anybody that needs help. And I know the senior citizens get phone numbers for all these things, so I tell people, “You can get help here, you can get help there.” So it’s good to be a senior citizen. Anna: Mm-hm. Olga: How long is the tape? [chuckles] Anna: Oh, God. Olga: How much longer? Anna: We got a lot more. Olga: I see like a, oh. I thought, I thought, oh… Anna: 90 - 92 minutes. Olga: Oh, I’m talking too fast. Oh, ours is only one hour, see. One hour. And you got, like, 10 minutes. This is a really, really big one. We talk a lot. Something else that won’t be blank? Anna: No. Olga: Let’s see…all the interesting things…well. We, we have a s-grandchild, my husband’s grandchild. Anna: Where do they live? Olga: Oh, the grandchild? They live in Littlestown, Pennsylvania. I married a widower who has 2 sons. The older one is a widower, and the younger one is remarried and has this, only grandchild that we have. Of course, our boy is still single, still looking. And he’s a very good boy - helps his parents any way he can. Anna: [unintelligible] Olga: Oh, lots of properties. Yeah, he’s a young fellow, but he likes to invest, so…he’s got investments for his old age. Let’s see… Anna: What were some of the most interesting things you like to do? Olga: My most interesting? Oh, nothing. Anna: Traveling, huh? Traveling. Olga: Traveling? Well, I enjoy going to, um, these religious - I enjoy going on these religious trips to Fatima near Canada because that’s the only way I got to Canada - by going with the church group. Anna: How about a place where they, where the people were dressed differently? Olga: I didn’t go there, you didn’t take me to such a town. You didn’t take me there, you didn’t take me. Now, where was I? I was talking about something…about my trips. Anna: Yeah. Olga: Yeah, if the churches and senior citizens didn’t have these trips, I probably wouldn’t go anyplace. My husband likes to drive, but not too far. I don’t know. He likes to go for a ride but not too far. So by going on these different excursions and bus trips, I’ve been to a lot of places like Mount Airy Lodge. I probably never would have got there if it wasn’t for the Senior Citizens - it was very reasonable. And I went to Niagara Falls, I think 2 or 3 times already. He never took me - I had to take myself to go to Niagara Falls. Let’s see, where else do I go…? Anna: You like animals? Olga: Oh, animals? Oh, yeah. I like animals. Yeah, we have a cat - she must be 12 or 13 years old. Florence, she’s such a nice cat kitty. Anna: [chuckles] Olga: She’s really a pleasure, and she’s so smart like a dog. You walk out the house, she follow you. And she’s a lot, a lot of pleasure. ‘Course, we used to have a dog, but that’s old stuff. Anna: You ever go to the circus? Olga: Oh, that? Yep. We care about that? Anna: Yeah. Olga: I thought just history - this ain’t history. Well, I enjoyed the circus, and I used to go when they had ‘em in the tents, Stow Flats. Anna: Well, it’s history in a way. Olga: [laughs] Anna: ‘Cause you go there and, you know… Olga:  Yeah. Well, they had, uh, circus in a tent. But now they have an arena, it’s so much nicer, and cleaner, and easy to get to. Buses run. We have very good, very good bus travel here - I enjoy riding the buses. And now that I’m a senior citizen, I get a discount. That’s nice, too. That discount, I enjoy that. And, let’s see..I guess they’re going to improve our Ross Park. I’ve been going there practically all my life, and it is better than it was before, but they’re making improvements all the time. That’s one of the places I love to go. Anna: Did you ever go there on that, on a streetcar? Olga: Yep, I went on a streetcar, but I must have been about 10 or 12 at the time. Because I remember the streetcars, vaguely. And Recreation Park, I passed it the other day. And I used to take care of my sister, and walked with a carriage, I loved Recreation Park. That hasn’t changed - that’s still nice. Anna: Mm-hm. Olga: Oh, I do love our parks. And I’ve been to state parks since that’s changed over. State park has changed over, and what’s nice is that senior citizens don’t even have to pay now. If you go on a weekday - not a, not a Saturday, Sunday, or holiday - you don’t even have to pay. Which is very nice. Anna: You worked in E.J., didn’t you? Olga: Yeah. Did I say that? 3 years. Yeah, I said 3 years E. J.’s, and 2 - yeah. I’m a dander. Anna: Oh. Olga: 3 years in E. J.’s and 2 years in P. J.’s. [chuckles] P. J.’s Restaurant. Anna: Well, how much, you weren’t - how much were you making then, when you first started? Olga: Oh, good heavens. It was a day work job, I don’t even know. I was working day work - I didn’t put in that many years to compare. Anna: You weren’t making much income? Olga: No, I don’t know how much, but it wasn’t much. Anna: You wanna tell ‘em about E. J.’s? How nice they were. Olga: How nice were they? In what way? Anna: They held, they gave the parties, and… Olga: Oh, E. J.’s? Well, while I worked in E. J.’s, I went - when my department, everybody went in, whoever went into service were all, they had a party, went to all the parties. That was nice. Anna: Mm-hm. That was for a dollar, you would say… Olga: Oh, the banquet? Well, E. J.’s was a very nice company. I will never forget ‘em because they had the E. J. banquets and I went to quite a few, and my gosh. For a dollar, you got your money’s worth. That was really something. Anna: Mm. Olga: Dad didn’t go, but I used to go with the other people. I really enjoyed going. And our son has a cottage - we like to go there. You know, being senior citizens, it’s a nice place to go, and it’s so quiet, it’s so nice there. And Dan’s pretty smart; he fixed up, um, a motor, and he hooked on to a car battery. And you don’t have to row the boat - it just takes you for a ride. The boat goes around the lake, and it’s so nice and so peaceful. All white birch trees - a lot of ‘em. That’s why it’s called White Birch Lake. White Birch in Windsor; nice place to visit. Anna: [unintelligible] Olga: Well, everybody else has been there, yeah. We haven’t been around, we go. Yep. And it’s…Joey modernized it: He has a little water bed there now. And one bedroom is all finished; the other bedroom isn’t finished yet, but it’s really nice. And when the blackberry season comes - I went once, I’d like to go again - people can pay, I forgot, not very much, and you can pick your own blackberries. So a couple years ago, I was picking blackberries there. That made it nice. Anna: Did you ever pick blackberries way back when you were a kid? Olga: Not, not that I remember. Oh, a little bit. When Tommy was small, I took care of Tommy. He used to go picking things. [unintelligible] Anna: When we went to the [unintelligible] play. Olga: Oh, that? Well, I don’t know what year, I don’t know what year that was, but a friend of mine - should I talk about this? Anna: You could. Olga: Well, Anne Cagenek, my friend from way back, we had a chance to be actresses on a stage. They had a Passion play, and we were Jewish ladies - Arabian or Jewish ladies. And we even had costumes, and make-up, and we played for 3 matinees. 3 matinees - that was something. Imagine being on the stage. Anna: And you were in the Passion show? Olga: The Passion show. Yeah, it was the Passion play, and we were on a stage. We played for 3 matinees. Anna: [unintelligible] Olga: Before the, just before the Capital Theatre was torn down. So we certainly miss, uh, that Capital Theatre. We miss it because that was such a show. Being on a stage, that’s once in a lifetime thing. And I enjoyed going there with my mother because they had vaudeville. Now, that was something. We don’t have vaudeville anymore - I do miss it. Wish we had the Capital Theatre, but now there’s a big parking lot for the bank. Theatre is gone. And, let’s see…oh, I used to belong to St. Cyril’s Church way back. And that was remodeled and torn down. Now, there’s a brand new church there. I went there all my life. And of course, now I go to Christ the King on Davis St. It’s a very small church, but very friendly - you get to know half the church. And, uh, we have Monsignor Frieze [sic] there and Father Walsh. So, it’s…oh, and our church, uh, once a month, we have this Golden Age which is very nice. It only started a few years ago, and I’m one of the members. Also, my husband is a member. We all bring a cover dish, and, um…first, we have our mass. And then we go downstairs and have our dinner. And then we have entertainment. Sometimes musicians come in and play for us, sometimes we have bingo, and they do give door prizes. And it’s, it’s very nice for the older people to get to. And we didn’t have that too long, so…we like that. And Dan isn’t a church member, but this, he does go with me. It’s one way to get him to church. He really likes that. group it’s very nice I belong there, I started a few years ago I belong there, I’m one of the members also my husband is a member. Anna: You’re, you’re a young senior citizen. Olga: I am? Anna: Aren’t you? Olga: Well, the bus driver says, “Senior citizen?” I says, “Yeah, I’m not ashamed to say I’m young senior citizen - 62.” I said, “Being a senior citizen, you do have a lot of nice breaks that I didn’t have before. I’m gonna go to Phase then, I understand that if you, lot of card, you can get a discount on any Phase products. I didn’t know that. You go to Kent’s? You don’t get a discount - only on the prescription - because anybody that walks in says that it’s already marked down.” No, you can only get a discount only on the prescription. With Phase, you can get a discount on anything in the store has the Phase label. You know, there’s washing supplies and cleaning things, or whatever you wanna buy at Phase, you do get a discount - you look into that. And what else? I was smart enough to get some of my mother’s receipts, I have a whole book of my her recipes. So [clears throat] a lot of the things she cooked and baked, I could read the book and do it just like my mother did. That’s something. Yep. Anna: How long did you live in Binghamton? Olga: How long have I lived in Binghamton? Well, all my life; I’ve never lived anyplace else. Binghamton’s my hometown. Born in Binghamton and probably die here [chuckles]. Anna: And where do you go? Olga: Yeah, well, I go on little visits - not big ones. But, yeah. Binghamton is my hometown. And I’m watching it change. Some of the things are pretty good. ‘Course, the old-fashioned things we miss, but [clears throat] we’re having a lot of little, nice improvements. Walking through Court Street, I see all the buildings get a new front. I see the work - oh, they’re cleaning up Binghamton. It’s really nice. I like the little park they have around by by the river: Benches and trees. They’re really improving Binghamton - I could see it change in all these years. Well, we’ve been here 62 years, that’s quite a while. I don’t think I’d like to live anyplace else…yep. I really care about Binghamton. Anna: [unintelligible] Olga: About our cemetery? Well, we have a nice cemetery. It’s, uh, Saint Cyril’s Cemetery. Saint Cyril’s. Anna: And is that where your family…? Olga: Yeah, your family. Don’t I know…Well, I’m looking forward to May 18. I’m going to Rochester. I hope the lilacs are open by then. In Rochester…I did do go there a couple years ago. We went to the Kodak Mansion, where the first cameras and the first pictures were made. That was really, really interesting. And then we went to a conservatory, saw all kinds of Oriental plants. And, uh, Hawaiian plants that we don’t even see around here - hope I go there again. And of course, we always stop at some nice restaurant. Those trips are really - I’m looking forward, I expect to go. Spring is here, but I’m gonna be traveling all summer: Every chance I get. So May 18 is my first trip. And maybe I’ll go to Canada again…I like that, too. And Niagara Falls, you never get tired of that. They don’t care that I went to [unintelligible] Anna: What? Olga: That I went to [unintelligible]. That I’m very lucky. You gonna put all that in the book? Anna: Well, there’s something worth saying there. You can tell ‘em. Olga: Well, they call me lu- they call me lucky. I don’t know why because I win this and that. Not everything, but almost. Anna: Almost. Olga: Even at the Senior Citizen, we have bingo. And I won yesterday, and I won last week. And when I went to the dinner dance, I won a door prize there. It won two fancy handkerchiefs. Anna: Oooh. Olga: It was 300 people, or not…was it 300? 125 people and only 6 people won. It was 125, and I was one of the 6. [chuckles] They see me walking to the thing. [clears throat] Anna: You went to the WMBF? Olga: Oh, WMBF? Let’s see, they didn’t give me a television. WMBF? Anna: But you won a lot of things. Olga: Well, I won that AM/FM radio I won on WMBF, and WNBR, a black and white television. And when the Oakdale Mall opened, I was lucky I won a television in the Citizens’ Savings Bank. And then a long time ago…we won - or actually, Dan - the BB store had a grand opening, so that actually, that was Dan’s television. Hm, they call me lucky. I wonder why? I must live right. That’s what they tell me. Every time I turn around, something nice happens. Yeah, I guess there is something to it: If you live right, it really pays off to live right. Anna: [unintelligible] Olga: [chuckles] God bless America. [laughs] Anna: And that’s it. Thank you, Olga, for the interview. Olga: You’re welcome, Anne. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Olga Riggins Subject The topic of the resource Riggins, Olga -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Children of immigrants -- Interviews; Endicott Johnson Corporation -- Employees; Hotels -- Employees; Carlova Perfume Factory; Hotel Billingshurst; Christ the King Church Description An account of the resource Olga Riggins talks about her parents' courtship and emigration from Europe to the U.S. She talks about her father's store and the ice house he operated. She tells of her variety of jobs - the Endicott Shoe Corporation, Carlova Perfume Factory, Hotel Billingshurst as a maid, and working in her family's store. She speaks about how she occupies her time, dedication to her church, Christ the King, and the various church activities she is involved with. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 51 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riggins, Olga ; Caganek, Anna Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-04-27 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 27:45 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f9b739378a3591b85ee46f93a469acec.jpg 62c5a1e1c927454dbcbbbc4891a4d1a8 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/600a36a124f9ac65ce6cc5d4795de896.mp3 b636ae80056aaf59d1d0e4b789af31ef Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Padraic M. Kennedy Date of Interview 2008-07-25 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 110:42 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Cambodian Invasion; Civil Rights Movement; Generation X; Baby boom generation; generation gap; Silent Generation; Vietnam War; Anti-war; Berrigan Brothers; Peace Corps; Lyndon B. Johnson; Eugene McCarthy; Civil Rights Movement; Dr. Benjamin Spock; Richard Nixon; Hubert Humphrey."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":14849,"3":{"1":0},"12":0,"14":{"1":2,"2":4995385},"15":"Cabin, sans-serif","16":11}">Cambodian Invasion; Civil Rights Movement; Generation X; Baby boom generation; generation gap; Silent Generation; Vietnam War; Anti-war; Berrigan Brothers; Peace Corps; Lyndon B. Johnson; Eugene McCarthy; Civil Rights Movement; Dr. Benjamin Spock; Richard Nixon; Hubert Humphrey. Subject LCSH Peace Corps (U.S.); Kennedy, Padraic M.--Interviews Biographical Text Padraic Kennedy was on the original staff of the Peace Corps and went from being Sargent Shriver's Associate Director to heading VISTA, the Peace Corps' domestic equivalent.  He took the first volunteers to Ghana in 1961, when the original Peace Corps volunteers numbered 900 while serving in 16 countries. By 1966 the Peace Corps was at its peak with 15,554 volunteers in 52 countries. When Kennedy left the Peace Corps he took with him, in all subsequent work, the spirit of President Kennedy's Inaugural speech centered on the words that inspired a generation which were "Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You Ask What You Can Do For Your Country." This included a brief stay as Vice President of Boise Cascade where he did economic development work. His next and final move came in 1972 when he became the first and longest running President of Columbia Association in Columbia, Maryland, a non-profit organization that owns and manages community assets.  President Kennedy once mentioned Padraic Kennedy in one of his speeches after he took office; a reference to the type of young people he hoped would carry on the Peace Corps mission.  Kennedy received his undergraduate degree from Columbia University and Master's Degree from the University of Wisconsin after serving in World War II. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Padraic Kennedy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kennedy, Padraic M. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Peace Corps (U.S.); Kennedy, Padraic M.--Interviews Description An account of the resource Padraic Kennedy is one of the original twelve staff members of the Peace Corps and former director of VISTA. He also was the first president of the Columbia Association (1972–1998). Kennedy has a Bachelor's degree from Columbia University and a Master's degree in American Political History from the University of Wisconsin. Padraic Kennedy was on the original staff of the Peace Corps and went from being Sargent Shriver's Associate Director to heading VISTA, the Peace Corps' domestic equivalent.  He took the first volunteers to Ghana in 1961, when the original Peace Corps volunteers numbered 900 while serving in 16 countries. By 1966 the Peace Corps was at its peak with 15,554 volunteers in 52 countries. When Kennedy left the Peace Corps he took with him, in all subsequent work, the spirit of President Kennedy's Inaugural speech centered on the words that inspired a generation which were "Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You Ask What You Can Do For Your Country." This included a brief stay as Vice President of Boise Cascade where he did economic development work. His next and final move came in 1972 when he became the first and longest running President of Columbia Association in Columbia, Maryland, a non-profit organization that owns and manages community assets.  President Kennedy once mentioned Padraic Kennedy in one of his speeches after he took office; a reference to the type of young people he hoped would carry on the Peace Corps mission.  Kennedy received his undergraduate degree from Columbia University and Master's Degree from the University of Wisconsin after serving in World War II. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-07-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.137a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.137b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 110:42 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3b7fb618df7aee331d3c759314624e6c.jpg eea6275ef0620223761107fcf03eff73 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a8c85b626dde92be81e3ed4b03f8f410.mp3 095ac0432f1e4faaa17d5e7f7ed5a119 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-02-22 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Patti Cassidy Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; 1960s; Political Correctness; Activism; Government trust; George W. Bush; Bill Clinton; late 1940s-1950s; Civil Rights Movement; 19770s; Sanctuary Movement"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":2,"4":{"1":2,"2":13689059}}">Baby boom generation; 1960s; Political Correctness; Activism; Government trust; George W. Bush; Bill Clinton; late 1940s-1950s; Civil Rights Movement; 19770s; Sanctuary Movement Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 165:33 Subject LCSH Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Political activists--United States; Cassidy, Patti--Interviews Biographical Text Patti Cassidy is a playwright and producer. She wrote her first play on a dare in a Mexican border town in southern Arizona. From then on her work has been produced from LA to Paris. Cassidy currently is co-producing a series of readings of plays in the greater Boston area. She has a Bachelor's degree in English Language and Literature from SUNY Albany. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Patti Cassidy Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 22 February 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): You are going here. PC (00:00:04): Okay. SM (00:00:06): I have got lots of questions to ask you, but some of them will be a little different than David, and some will be the same that David got. PC (00:00:11): Okay. David, whether they are all the same or- SM (00:00:14): Well, the first question. When I looked at your website, I am pretty fascinated by the fact that your experiences are pretty diverse. And before we even get into specifics about the boomers, it is about boomer lives, when you say that you grew up in New York State and then you lived in the Arizona Desert and the New England Island- PC (00:00:33): Right. SM (00:00:34): ... that is given you a diffuse and eclectic experience of the United States, was that when you were young? Was that during your early years? PC (00:00:42): No, I grew up in upstate New York, and I was up there until I was 20 something, 25. And then, the man that I ended up marrying, he and I did that great American go and find out if there was a better place to live kind of thing. And we ended up in Arizona, and that was in the 1970s. So, when I was 25. And we lived there down there, first, in Tucson, and then moved up into the mountains and did the homesteading thing, and that was total 27 years. And then, I moved back here to Boston because it was time to come home. And by that time I was divorced. And then, I met David, and he, of course, was on an island in Narragansett Bay. So, that is now. Excuse me. SM (00:01:48): Was there anything about your upbringing as a child that you wanted to explore America, you wanted to see more than just growing up in New York? PC (00:01:58): No. Just to put it bluntly, travel. Our vacations were either in Western Pennsylvania where my family's family came from, or it was in Maine, Kennebunkport, actually. And that was fine. And I did not have the wanderlust. I did not particularly have any reason to want to travel. Although when my aunt went to Greece, she was a classic professor. When she went to Greece and showed me pictures of, well, this is the crossroads where Oedipus met his father, that started to spark something. That was when I was about 12 or 13, but it was not very strong until college basically. And the year I dropped out of college to buy a motorcycle and travel across the country- SM (00:02:55): Wow. PC (00:02:56): ... by myself, I went to drop out, and my guidance counselor said, "Do you know that 25 percent of your class has dropped out here?" SM (00:03:06): Now, what school was this? PC (00:03:07): That was State University of New York at Albany. SM (00:03:09): Oh, okay. PC (00:03:10): And that was the years, and that is the way things were happening. SM (00:03:16): And what year was that? PC (00:03:19): That was 1968. SM (00:03:22): Oh, that was a big year. PC (00:03:23): That was a huge year. SM (00:03:26): Yeah. Yeah. So, you traveled around the country. What was that like? Share a little bit about that year. PC (00:03:32): Well, that trip, I was a young girl, and I have always been young looking for my age. So, I looked like I was 12 or something, riding around. Basically, I got as far as Nebraska before I turned around and went back. But I was alone. I was on a motorcycle. I had a Honda 350, and it looked like a mini Harley. And it was just interesting for me to feel the sense of freedom. The people I met. I remember in Illinois somewhere, I had run a stop light or a stop sign, which I had not seen. But this cop pulled me over, and I took my helmet off and my hair fell down because it was long hair. And he was flabbergasted that there was this girl going by herself. And he said, "What are you doing?" And I said, "Well, I am taking a spike across the country and seeing what I can see." And he said, "Well, that is amazing because I had always wanted to do something like that." And he poured his heart out about how he had always wanted to go on trips like that, but he never had the nerve. And so, that was pretty neat. And then, there were a lot of people who told me, "You be careful. You were driving by yourself. You were going alone by yourself." And I really did not feel afraid. That is the thing, I was not a particularly brave kind of a girl or a tomboy even. It was just something that I wanted to do. And of course, I'd seen your basic easy rider, and I had been reading a little bit of Kerouac. Not a lot. SM (00:05:32): On the road. PC (00:05:33): On the road. So, basically I was becoming more and more interested in seeing, "Well, what is this? There is got to be something outside of Albany." And so, that is when I started to take trips. SM (00:05:52): Well, 1968, obviously, your brother-in-law has written a great book about it, but it is a historic year in so many ways. And the way your brother-in-law talked about it is there were things leading up to it. There were historic events and happenings that played a very important part in that year, even before that year. But when you looked at America in 1968, obviously, if you were on the road on a motorcycle, you may not have been watching television as much as others. We had the assassinations that year of Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy, Johnson resigned and was not going to run again as president. We had the Tet situation in Vietnam, and then obviously the conventions and the confrontation in Chicago. PC (00:06:36): Oh, I paid a lot of attention. SM (00:06:38): Yeah. When you were going across the country, were you talking to people? Were people talking about it in restaurants or wherever you were stopping? PC (00:06:49): No, I did not really hear much about it. I was only on the road for, I think, three weeks because, as I say, by the time I got out to Nebraska, I said I am going home. And I tended to be a fairly shy person. But what I saw, basically, all the way across country, as I say I never felt fear. I really did not feel afraid at any time. And I saw, I guess, what I expected to see. I saw people who dressed like I did, even in the Midwest. I did not find it a foreign land, which I was thinking that I would have. But as far as discussing the situation with people I did not know, no, I cannot really say that I heard a lot of discussions going on in diners or anything like that. Right. SM (00:07:50): Right. Do you look at your growing up years as a female boomer, which is obviously different than a male boomer. Do you feel that a female boomers' experiences were really totally different? PC (00:08:06): I do not know that they were totally different. I think they were different in the way you related to what you learned. I do not think that we had the feeling of we can go out, or I can only speak to myself. I did not have a feeling that, oh, I could go out and ride a motorcycle. Oh, I could go out and overturn the government. Oh, I can go out and do all of these things. And yet, as the years went on, I did start to feel that power during that period. I did really feel like, oh, I can do all these things. It was a very empowering time for me as a woman. And one of the big things, and I wondered if you were going to be talking about it, was birth control. SM (00:08:53): Yes. PC (00:08:54): That was just phenomenal. And it was the biggest change. Now, I grew up a staunch Catholic gal, and of course the idea of, A, birth control and, B, needing it, we were out of the question. But once the hippie years started, and I started getting involved with people, and then all of a sudden you have got birth control on top of it, which meant you did not have the biggest consequence that you had to worry about, it made me feel totally free. And at that point, I think I really wanted to try to experiment more. I really wanted to take advantage of the freedoms that guys had traditionally had that you had to be more careful when you were a girl. Suddenly, there was this thing that made it be, oh, you do not have to be as careful because you're not going to have to get pregnant. And so, that made a really huge difference. But as far as growing up, I did feel limited. I did feel very much like there was a role to play. You go to school, you get married, you have kids, and you do that thing. I was not happy with that role. That really did not seem to fit me. But because of the way things were. Now, I thought I would be a nun, actually, rather than a mother, because, if you were a Catholic kid, that was your other option. But I did not feel like there were very many options until the (19)60s came along, when all of a sudden things cracked open and you suddenly realize, yeah, I do have a lot of different options. I could ride a motorcycle, or I could be a writer, or I could be all of these things. It was almost overwhelming. SM (00:10:52): Yeah. You mentioned the pill. One of the questions someplace and on my list here is a question that I was going to ask regarding what were the major happenings or events that really affected you as a female boomer during the time that you were young? And when I say young, I am also talking about your elementary school years, your high school, your college, in the twenties, thirties, into the (19)40s, because I consider that young. So, we are talking about the (19)50s, the (19)60s, the (19)70s, and the (19)80s. I am really looking at those periods. PC (00:11:28): Okay. SM (00:11:29): So, obviously the pill was very important. Was the sexual revolution a myth? Or was there truth to it? PC (00:11:37): I do not know. No, I do not think the sexual revolution was a myth at all. You suddenly had people who, well, as I just mentioned, the pill was so huge because you had one group of the population saying it is possible to do this and not have to deal with, oh, I am going to have a baby. I am going to have to take care of it. Or I cannot do anything that I really want to with my boyfriend because, et cetera. So, you had that freedom. At that point, there was not a whole lot of venereal disease problems that could not be fixed by a shot of penicillin. And so, that was another issue. Everybody I knew was involved. And remember, I was basically in a pretty middle-class situation. Standard, good Catholic, strong background situation. But I would say by 1972, it was just an arbitrary date, came around, almost everybody I knew was having full relationships with guys. I mean, our parents were tearing their hair out. But basically, none of my generation had a problem with, yes, she was living with so-and-so, or they are getting together every weekend, or whatever. You just did not even think about it. It just flew over the top of your head. SM (00:13:10): How important was Roe v. Wade with women, too? PC (00:13:15): Roe v. Wade was very important. And at the time that that decision was made, I was very happy that the freedom came along. But I ended up rethinking in the 1980s, the late (19)80s, I started rethinking my position about it. And that was actually due to a remark that was made a man that I really respected by the name of Nat Hentoff. I do not know if you know him. SM (00:13:51): Nat Hentoff. That name rings a bell. PC (00:13:55): He was actually a jazz critic for the Village Voice and a very smart guy. And he started doing some investigation, basically, to decide how he felt about the abortion issue. And he came up with some conclusions that, when I read them, I said I do not want to be pro-life. I do not want to be pro-life. I want to continue to be pro-choice because it goes along with my anti-war stance and everything else. But the more I thought about it, the more I got back to first causes, the more I felt I had to change my decision on that. And basically, I tried not even to say very much about what I believed, because I knew everybody would look at me like I have got a third head. SM (00:14:48): Betty Friedan, of course, was one of the big writers of that period, and she wrote many books dealing with women. And she used to always say that the mothers, which our parents, the mothers of the boomers, were basically very unfulfilled in the late forties and the (19)50s, and when they raised the kids. Do you feel this is true? I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly this past week in Washington. PC (00:15:15): Oh, wow. SM (00:15:16): And she said that that was nothing but propaganda, that women love being homemakers, and that women were fulfilled in raising their kids. So, there is a lot of different points of view here. But do you feel that your mother, the mothers of the (19)50s, were unfulfilled because they were home being homemakers as opposed to working? PC (00:15:41): My mother personally did not have a real problem with it. She was very ill. She had heart condition, and so she was not a real go-getter to go out and have a career or anything. But I cannot really agree with Phyllis Schlafly. There were a lot of hamstrung women. There were a lot of women who wanted more than what they could have that I saw that when the was made available to them to go out and work or to do more things than be a mom and be consistently tied to your kids. There were a lot of divorces that happened around then, I remember. And sometimes, they actually bought the wrong product. Freedom meant getting a job, but getting a job might be a file clerk, and that was, certainly, not even as fulfilling as being a mom. So, sometimes they did not think it through. But I cannot really say that I agree with her just based on my own personal observation. A lot of women that I talked to that I knew were frustrated, that they were very glad to add to their roles, they were glad for the opportunity to try to do different things. SM (00:17:12): Yeah. That was an interesting time because a lot of women had worked during World War II when the men went off to war. There were a lot of women in the war, but that is where women really worked. And I can remember my mom was a tremendous secretary. And then, when my dad came home from the war, she gave all that up to raise the kids. And I had never even thought of asking her once we started moving off into the world whether she felt fulfilled after all those years. She raised kids. PC (00:17:40): Is she still around now? SM (00:17:42): No, she passed away in 1998. PC (00:17:45): Oh, okay. SM (00:17:46): And I never even asked my dad who passed away in 2002 some of these issues. I wish I could have asked them. But that was a big issue because the Equal Rights Amendment, of course, was defeated in the early (19)70s and the mid-(19)70s, and Phyllis Schlafly was a very important reason why it was defeated. PC (00:18:09): Right. As a matter of fact, I just finished reading a book called, it was not The Way We Were. It is, The Way Things Were, I think. And basically, it tells about the way things were for women in the early (19)60s all the way up to now. And it does not try to be a polemic. It does not try to say, "Oh, this was terrible." It just said, "This is what happened." And one thing that she mentioned that I had forgotten all about is that, financially, I had to have a male's signature to start my bank account, to start my checking account, I had to have my dad's signature. And credit cards. I looked into getting a credit card. I did not get it. But basically, you have to have a man sign for you. And I had forgotten all about that because, basically, it really did hamstring you. Again, it was that whole feeling of you really did not have the power because, in fact, you had to get the permission, even in the 1970s when I wanted to have a tubal ligation, I had to have my husband. SM (00:19:25): Wow. PC (00:19:26): I could not just do that on my own say so. They said, "Well, your husband has to sign the papers." He was not happy about that. He said, "Well, it's her body. She should do what she wants." SM (00:19:36): Right. PC (00:19:37): And they said, "No, you are her husband, so you have to sign.” SM (00:19:41): Well, one of the things that the women's movement talked about, Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem and Bella Abzug, I was looking up some of the quotes, and that is that they felt that women were unfulfilled. And to this day, Mrs. Schlafly believes that this propaganda continues, and they need to move on. So, anyways, that is just a little side note. Now, you're a very artistic person, obviously, because I looked at your background, and were doing films and writing and so forth and sculpture. PC (00:20:21): Right. SM (00:20:22): Do you feel that this area of interest had anything to do with reinventing yourself, which is a quality so many boomers felt. I know, even in Charles's book, he talks about this business of a concept, and a lot of people wanted to reinvent themselves. They did not want to be like their parents. Their parents were part of a generation that ended a war. Of course, beat two really bad, at that time, very bad countries that were doing terrible things. But when the war ended, they came home. And a lot of people in the boomer generation were upset that this was a generation that also created the atomic bomb, and that they wanted to be different, and they wanted to reinvent themselves. Do you feel that anything you have done in your life was not that you did not disrespect your parents, but you did not want to be like them? You wanted to reinvent yourself and be your own person? PC (00:21:29): It is an interesting question because I am constantly reinventing myself. I think that, basically, the way I chose to run my life, I knew I had to kick against the belief because you had not only, basically, GI parents. Well, my father was even farther back. He was born in 1904. He was old when I was born. But it was not so much that I wanted to be something different than they were, but I wanted to be something different than what the world expected of me because it did not fit. Like I said, the housewife with the kids, that never did fit me. I wanted the freedom to do that. Let me think for just a second. I think that it was all about experimenting. It was all about experiments. And one thing we were lucky enough, as a generation, to have cheap education. We could all go to college or almost everybody could go to school. And so, we had a lot of opportunities to explore ideas and possibilities. And with me, I read tons of poetry. I met a lot of people who were involved mostly in the writing game. And so, basically, I wanted to try that out. I wanted to try those [inaudible 00:23:12]. So, as far as reinvention, reinventing the traditional roles, yeah, but not necessarily in opposition to my parents, but just to try it out. SM (00:23:26): Yeah, you are a boomer. What is your overall feelings about your generation? It is interesting. Even if you look at the books, they cannot even come up with the exact number of boomers, anywhere from 70 to 78 million. That is quite a discrepancy. But I have seen many different quotes. 70, 74, 78 million. What are your thoughts on your generation, not only when you were young, but have you changed your opinions of them as you have grown older and as they have grown older? And in terms of some of the qualities they possess, a lot of them had this idealism that was a very important part of the generation. There was a feeling of community where, whether it be a cause, people could come together and believe and fight for justice. Or have strong feelings toward a particular issue, and they knew that other people felt that way. So, a sense of community, and there was also a sense of movements, many movements, that you felt a sense of empowerment, that an individual could make a difference, that the individual was important. But you had not only community, but you had the importance of individual freedom of speech. And that, finally, my views, and I can make a difference in this world. So, what are your overall feelings of your generation when you were young, and as you have grown older? PC (00:24:59): Basically, starting, when you are saying, when I was young as a kid, I do not think I had that much of a feeling as a child. But as I got older, and this is a point where my husband and I diverge. I am proud of the boomers. I am proud of what we did. At that point, I was, although every once in a while my contemporaries would irritate me because they were self-righteous. But they were questioning. I mean, there was this whole thing about our generation questioned everything. And sometimes it got silly, and sometimes it led into weird places. But in fact, at least they were questioning, at least they were saying, "Well, what is this?" And they were trying to make an alternative to basically the gray corporate world, which is what we grew up in, and the world where everybody had a standard that they had to tow the line or else the left out or called weird or whatever. At last, people were saying, "Okay, we do not have to do this. We can do some other things. We can try other situations." And I was proud of that. I was very happy to be a part of that. And I still think that boomers get a bad rap. Everybody goes, "Oh, my God. Look how it turned out, and look how terrible they are. And look at how greedy and grasping they are. And look at all the things that went wrong." Well, you know what? It may have gone wrong with a lot of them, but also with a lot of people, it did not, I mean, just in the church, and I will go back to that because that was most familiar. I mean, there were things that were done that made it more understandable and accessible to more people. The whole divorce thing, the whole, they call them, street priests. I mean, priests actually going out into the street and helping kids, like juvenile delinquents and stuff. I think we did a good job of what we did, which was questioning all the basic assumptions and saying, "Do they work or do not they? What can we tear apart?" Sometimes, we got to be tearing apart for the hell of it. In fact, I always felt when I saw somebody my age, I knew pretty much, or I felt that I knew pretty much, what I could expect. And that did do a bonding thing for me. As I said, I did not approve of a lot of stuff they did, because sometimes I felt that they were too self-righteous. And sometimes I felt they were silly. But in fact, the situation was that somebody had to go questioning this stuff or else was going to go on forever as far as we could see. SM (00:27:56): You mentioned some of the things that you felt were weaknesses. What do you consider some of the strengths and weaknesses? I have had people that will not answer this question because they said, "I cannot answer a question for 74 million different individuals." PC (00:28:09): Well, that is true. SM (00:28:11): And so, based on your experiences, though, and the boomers that you knew, what do you consider their strengths and their weaknesses? PC (00:28:24): Well, I will start out with the weaknesses. The weaknesses were that they did tend, when they grabbed on to something, to be a little self-righteous. And as far as today goes, I do not think that we are as self-righteous anymore. I really do not. And I think that that may be why we fall apart, why we went from being a group to being a bunch of individuals. So, I think that the self-righteousness was probably a weakness. Another thing was that because we were so curious about everything. We wanted to bring in, say, Caribbean poetry of the 18th century as a course to be taught in colleges as opposed to just the straight cannon. It got a little bit silly, some of the stuff. So, those I think are the weaknesses. I think as far as the strengths go, I see it as a strength to question everything. To basically say, "This is not working. What can we do? Let us go down to first causes. Let us really get behind it." Think of all the teach-ins. These were not just demonstrations where people say, "Oh, let us go out and club a few heads." Or, "Let us go out and dance in the streets." They said, "Let us have teach-ins. Let us find out what the truth is behind things." And I think that was a real strength of my generation. I am happy that they did that. And I am also happy with the hippie movement. Although again, it got to be something other. It got to be probably too much in the world of drugs. We lost too many people that way. The fact that, again, they were trying to experiment and trying to put it into action, put your theories into action. Go out and reject, I do not know if you remember this. There was that big thing about the culture of death. The ruling culture is the culture of death. Let us be the culture of life. They really did give it a whack. They really did. It was not this violent thing that you see going on now. Oh, how do you rebel against the establishment now is get a zip gun. Back then, it was just tell them to do their own thing and drop out. SM (00:31:00): A critic of that view maybe, I am from the era, too. So, I know. PC (00:31:10): Oh, good. SM (00:31:10): But my opinions do not mean anything in this book. The key thing here is there were people that used drugs to get away from the reality of the world they were seeing. And if they wanted to be the change agents for the betterment of society, did not they want to be sober or off drugs to be able to deal with this? Experimentation is one thing, but to be thought upon as legitimate people who care deeply about changing the world, why get on drugs? So, I am just being a critic here. PC (00:31:47): No, I understand. And I have a complicated relationship with that, too, because I must admit, I experimented just like people did. I always held a job and everything like that. I mean, it never got in the way of that. But you may be talking about two different people. Basically, you have got some people who say, okay, let us try to change the world with tutoring, classes after school, tutoring of classes, working in the slums, doing that sort of thing. You have got other people who are experimenting with themselves and they are saying, "What will it take? What if I try this drug?" Particularly the hallucination. "What if I take this drug? What will happen to me?" So, they're exploring themselves. You do not necessarily have the same person doing two different things. Some people would try to change society, some people would try to change themselves, and some people were just not interested in changing anything. SM (00:32:56): Well, we know that we lost some great musicians to drugs, and that is just well known and documented. Do you have any personal experiences of friends or peers or fellow college students or people that lost their life or were totally destroyed by being involved in drugs? Do you have any anecdotes or stories? PC (00:33:19): Let me think about that. Basically, everybody I knew took drugs to one degree or another, anywhere from pot to heavier stuff. I did not have any personal experience with anybody I know dying from drugs. One girl, her parents sent her to an asylum because she was very whacked out. And I certainly saw a lot of meltdowns, but at that point, we were all taking care of our own. SM (00:33:58): Well, I think, one day, someone, if they could write a book. There has never been a book written about it. One day someone, if they could write a... there has never been a book written about it. Of course how do you document it? But you have to find boomer parents who lost kids and most boomer parents are passing away now. PC (00:34:10): Who, the people who died from drugs? SM (00:34:14): Yeah, because it is a story... we know about these personalities who died from drugs, but the question is, we read that so many lives were destroyed. And who are these people whose lives were destroyed? Who are they? PC (00:34:30): Exactly. SM (00:34:31): And no one was ever really done a book on it, like an interviewing. I wish I was 25 years younger now talking to boomer parents about losing their son or daughter because it would be a great story in terms of students not getting involved in drugs today. A couple things. When Newt Gingrich came into power in 1994, and obviously when George Will does a lot of his writing in his books and comms, they love to take shots at the (19)60s generation or the boomers that grew up after World War II. And they look at the (19)60s and early (19)70s when boomers were young and say, a lot of the problems we have in our society today go right back to that era, which includes the skyrocketing divorce rate, the no commitment with between... in relationships, the ism culture, which is everybody's a victim and nobody takes it by their bootstraps to help themselves. The drug culture, the sexual revolution, sexual morays, whether it be through movies or the way people lived and all the other things. They love to take shots at the generation for all the problems that are in America today. I know it's very generalized, but it has been documented and they're not the only ones. There has been a lot of books written about even the issue that what is going on in universities today. The troublemakers of the (19)60s are the professors of today, and that is why the universities are destroyed with political correctness and women's studies programs and gay studies and Native American studies, everything studies and only caring about their own particular culture. Your thoughts on these criticisms that people do have about things that they felt began when boomers were young and then they have carried it on in their adult lives. PC (00:36:34): And that is part of this whole blame the boomers for everything culture that is arisen. We had a conversation at home just the other night about this whole attitude toward people. Yeah, well, something is wrong, it must be the boomers. Boomers are really horrible people. They did all this. You know what, it is every generation does the same thing. As far as the diversity of people who were women's studies, Native American studies, that kind of studies, I will say that that came during that period. That you started looking out and saying, is history in fact only name states and of the ruling powers and war studies and peace studies and diplomacy studies, or do other [inaudible] of the population have a story in itself too. And to what degree should that be recognized. Political correctness used as... this is only my opinion, but has been used as a piece of propaganda against the left when in fact you will see the same kind of thing going on in the right. And I am not going to go any farther with that because I do not have any name states and facts that I can do that. But I think that, I do not think that all the political correctness battles have been entirely a problem of the left. And them too, I do not see them blaming the right-wing boomers because there were right wing boomers. You had the young Republicans, you had- SM (00:38:17): Young Americans for Freedom. PC (00:38:19): Exactly. You had that whole rule. But you see absolutely no criticism of those guys. You only see criticisms of the left. Why is that? Because who is doing the criticism? Well, you have got your Newt Gingrich not known as a left-wing pundit. I would tend to look carefully at whether they are saying it is the boomers or it is the left that is making all of these problems. And who's doing the criticism? Is it the left that is doing the criticism or is it the right? If it is all across the board, then you have got something to look at. SM (00:38:57): See, I think the critics... it has been explained to me by some of the people I have interviewed that it is really the 15 percent of the activists who were really involved in any of the movements at that time that they are really critical of. And sometimes they are not critical of the whole generation because, again, one of the things of the criticisms is that, well, only 15 percent of the boomers were really involved in any kind of an activism. We are really talking about the new left and the anti-war and all the people who are involved in all those different movements. That is what they... they try to redefine it that way. Not the whole generation of 85 percent that never involved in anything. But then I come back to them, and I ask you this, even though it may be critical of those who were activists, including the Phyllis Schlafly's of the world who was a conservative in that period, and they were Young Americans for Freedom, do not you feel that somehow in some way, all of the boomers were subconsciously affected by the times they lived in, even though they were not active in any of the movements? And as time's gone on, they are affected by it. PC (00:40:12): I am not quite sure that I can clearly... I am not quite sure that I understand. You are saying that all boomers, that their mindsets were affected by what was going on? SM (00:40:25): I am trying to say that subconsciously the 85 percent who were not involved in any kind of activism still were affected somewhat by the times they lived in. PC (00:40:35): Well, we are all affected by [inaudible]. I think that is fair. SM (00:40:39): And that is somewhat lessened when people say only 15 percent were involved. PC (00:40:44): Because you have even got, well Silent. David told me the figures one time for divorce during the 19 early (19)70s when divorce really got cranked up. It was the Silent who were getting divorces. I think it affects everybody all the way across the board, not just the boomers, but anybody who lives during a period of time is going to be affected by what's going on. SM (00:41:09): How do you feel that many boomers felt they were the most unique generation in American history because they were going to change the world like it'd never been seen before? That they were going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, war, and they were going to make a better world. PC (00:41:26): Well, you know what, that was part of the thing that I was telling you that used to drive me a little nuts, is that people did tend to get self-righteous. But did we believe that we were different, that we were essentially the salvation of the United States? I do not know. I think we thought that we could really make a change. And we did. When the Vietnam War was over, we really had a feeling that we had a significant role in making that happen. So that gives you a feeling of power to say, God, if I can do that I could do anything. And so you start building on that. And then you have the social programs that started up and had started. And the Peace Corps. People were actually going out and doing things and seeing some differences. And the more... excuse me, the more they built on that, the more they did feel in power. Now, what continues to flummox me is what happened to the ones that got a degree in corporate? Did they just burn out and went too far in the other direction? That is possible. SM (00:42:47): Let me change the tape here. Change to the other side. The next question I have is one of the two basic questions that I have been trying to get responses from all of my interviewees. And I am going to read this one because this is something our students put together when we went to Washington DC about 15 years ago, and we met with former Senator Edmond Muskie. And because he wanted to talk about 1968 because he was the vice presidential running mate with Humphrey. And this is the question. Do you feel that the boomers as a generation are still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore this nation apart in their youth? Divisions between Black and white, divisions between those who supported authority and those who criticized it, divisions between those who supported the troops and those who did not? What role has the Vietnam War played in healing the divisions or was this primarily a healing for veterans? And finally, do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has 40 years made the statement, "Time heals all wounds," a truth? And I think when I was trying to clarify this more, I think it's more between those who were against the war and protested against the war, who were boomers, and those who were veterans because the divisions are still there. PC (00:44:20): Between the veterans and the [inaudible]? SM (00:44:22): Well, veterans still had very strong feelings toward those people, most of them, toward those people who protested the war. And I do not know... And I think most of the people that protested the war, a lot of them never had problems with the veterans, they had problems with the authorities who sent them there. But there were a few that did have problems with anybody fighting. So, your thoughts about the generation as a whole, do you think this generation has a problem with healing? PC (00:44:55): That is a really good question. The divisions back then between say activists and- SM (00:45:06): I am going to turn my tape right now. Make sure... okay, go right ahead. PC (00:45:20): I think that as far as healing goes... see, this is very hard for me to speak for anybody other than myself. Although I was an anti-war protestor, again, as you said, it was not against the guys that went, although sometimes it was based on the person and how he presented himself. Because a lot of those guys did not want to go. They were not there because they wanted to be there, they were there because they were drafted. I do not have a problem with the guys who fought in Vietnam. I had a problem with self-righteousness on either side. Either the activists, again, that same old thing that I keep coming back to, or the soldiers who basically were ready to say, oh, well, we were just doing our duty and you are a bunch of pansies cause would not do it. But as far as now, it is to me personally, it is a dead issue. I do not feel that division happening now in myself. I am trying to think of the other boomers that I know, and I cannot think of people that carry it on. And I know... Some of my friends are people who fought in the war, fought in Vietnam, and they're not carrying it. Some of them actually even became anti-war activists later on for different wars. I guess my final answer would be, no, I am not feeling that that division is any really significant one unless you had a personal confrontation with somebody who was really aggressively from the other point of view. And then you might have it against that person. But I really do not see that as being an issue now. I might be blind, but I have not seen it. SM (00:47:27): I know when Senator Muskie was... we waited for him to respond and he did not. Then he finally said, "We have not healed since the Civil War.:" And then he went on to talk about, he had just seen the Ken Burns series because he had been in the hospital and he said, 400,000 men had lost their lives. We almost lost a whole generation. Particularly in the south. The number of men, it is unbelievable. It is amazing that they could even have families because so many had died from the south. But that is what he was responding to. And because he knows that anybody who knows what happens in Gettysburg, when the north and south came together, that the healing really was not there. And so many people did go to their graves, was still the bitterness of that period. PC (00:48:16): Well, the south is still fighting the war. We have all met people from the south or been in situations where they make it clear that they're still fighting that war. SM (00:48:30): I think I was originally getting... because I had been at the wall many times, this is like an anti-war protestor taking their family to the wall for the first time and having their little son or daughter look up to their father and say, "Dad, what did you do in the war?" I think that was kind of where this all came from I think in terms of the healing. The generation gap of something was very obvious between the World War II generation and the boomers. Of course, the Silent was that small group in between. But did you have an issue with generation gap between your parents and you? PC (00:49:06): There were things we did not agree on. My father was an interesting character because he was not a GI, he was before GI's. He was what was called the Lost. And although it turned out that he was a conservative, we just basically did not talk politics, which is really interesting. I had not even realized it until we were... David and I were talking about it recently. We did not do it. Basically, the rule in the house was, if you have got something to say and you can back it up with facts, then I will respect your opinion but if you are just mouthing out [inaudible], I will not. SM (00:49:50): That is very good. PC (00:49:50): And that is the way we ran it. We did not have political arguments for their sake, but it was, what do you believe here? Because I was a Goldwater girl when I was in high school, before I could vote. Talk about ultraconservative. I worked at the Goldwater headquarters. I read, None Dare Call It Treason, I knew the whole John Birch line. And went to a fraternity party one night, and we were talking about Vietnam and our involvement in Vietnam. And I was saying, "Well, no, we have to do it because of the domino theory, blah, blah, blah." And some of the guys who were against the war started asking me questions. And I went home that night and I could not sleep. I kept thinking, something is not working here, let us go back to first causes. Why are we fighting a war? What is the worst thing that could happen if we left Vietnam? By the end of that night, I said, I cannot be a Goldwater girl anymore. I cannot basically support the war anymore because, again, it was this life-changing thing. To go back to first causes, first question, what is behind this? What would happen if? And once you started doing that, wherever it goes, that is where you end up. And I ended up radical left, and I basically have not been out of that camp since. But I also do not align with any parties. I have even voted for Republicans when I thought they were honest human beings who were trying their best to do what they could. SM (00:51:41): I think Hillary Clinton was a Goldwater girl too at the very beginning. PC (00:51:47): Is that right? I did not know that. SM (00:51:47): Yes. She was a Goldwater girl. There is a whole story in her biography by... I forget her name... God, one of the first ones when Bill Clinton became president. And she said she had a great teacher because she was a Goldwater girl, and the other person was a LBG person so they were forced to take the other person's point of view in a class assignment. She ended up doing a debate in support of Johnson and the person who liked Johnson had to support Goldwater. And that was a great way of teaching. And that is when she started making her change toward being to the left as opposed to being to the right. PC (00:52:28): When you start questioning, I do not care whether you are on the left and you start questioning and you slide to the right or the other way around, if you can have a good reason for what you're doing, then it is legitimate, then there is no fight. SM (00:52:44): Well, I think that her name was [inaudible]. I think it is a great little book she wrote on Hillary Clinton when she was the first lady. In your eyes, what were the watershed moments? When did the (19)60s begin in your eyes and when did it end? PC (00:53:01): Clearly, when Kennedy was shot, I think that was such a devastating situation for me and probably for everybody. That I knew suddenly, oh God, everything you believed in could be wiped out in an instance. And I was not a Kennedy fan, particularly, remember those were my Goldwater era days. But to have the president shot, that this could... I am sorry, it still makes me cry. That this could happen in your country was horrible. And so that is when that part of it started. When he got shot, it was total devastation of everything you believed in. And then the other half of it, the cultural revolution started when the Beatles arrived. My mother said that that was when I was ruined, when the Beatles came to the United States. She said, "You were ruined then, you were ruined." Everything fell apart. And so, I think that is clearly when they started. When they ended was when everybody seemed to get so self-absorbed, say the mid-(19)70s ish. It is like all of a sudden everybody was doing all these... and that is part of the victimization groups and all that stuff. Everybody was so involved in themselves, how they were [inaudible] better for themselves. But I feel that the idealism that marked our generation really started to get wiped out. SM (00:54:51): I know this is another question that some people did not want to answer, because they said, that is ridiculous to ask it because we're dealing with 74 to 78 million. But I said, if I had a room full of 500 people from all over the country, from all ethnic groups, from male, female, gay, lesbian, you name it, and I were to ask them, what do you feel was the most important event that affected your life, one specific happening, what would that be? PC (00:55:22): As a personal event? SM (00:55:26): Yeah, as an event that happened in your life when you were a boomer? And I was referring mainly to probably up to the age of 40 or whatever, what would it be? PC (00:55:39): That is a hard one if you are going to include the personal stuff. As far as national stuff- SM (00:55:45): National, international, is there any one specific happening that shaped you more than any other? PC (00:55:53): The Kennedy assassination on a political level. On a personal level, it had to do with a relationship with a guy. And that is all I really want to say. SM (00:56:10): And again, this is very difficult because we are talking about a lot of people. Do you think boomers have been good parents and good grandparents? I cannot believe we're saying that because a lot of boomers do not like to admit they are getting old. But boomers do not complain either, because I think they look like they are going to live longer. PC (00:56:34): What, because they do not complain about getting old? SM (00:56:38): I do not see a whole lot... they are just getting 62 now so I just do not see it- PC (00:56:43): I will tell you something about the boomers, the boomers have said tradition... all across the board, the boomers have said to themselves, okay, this is what happens at this age level, this is what I do not like, so what do I do to fix this? Therefore, you get things like... it's true, they did not invent it, but they certainly popularized it. Then you got birth control. As we were coming into a childbearing years, what is the thing that has to be fixed about getting pregnant when you do not want to? Well, give us something that will make it so we do not have babies. Then as older guys... and I am sorry because you are a boomer too, but as boomers started aging and getting that problem, what happens, Viagra. SM (00:57:29): Is not that amazing? PC (00:57:31): Whatever problems we have got or whatever problems hit the... when the boomers hit an age that has a problem, they fix it. And I think that is another good thing I like because they are not willing to say, okay, I am going to be 65 and I am going to be in a rocking chair. I do not know anybody my age who is sitting around in a rocking chair. I do not know anybody that age. What they have got now, if they're sitting in a rocking chair it is because they broke their knees skiing. SM (00:58:01): Well, they cannot walk. And of course, a lot of them retire because they want to go on do something else. PC (00:58:08): Exactly, nobody has... I started in the banking field when I was 20 and I am 70 and I am ready to retire and I am still in the banking field. There are some people that do that, but I think it is a much, much smaller percentage than our parents' generation. And it goes back to that thing that you were talking about, about reinventing ourselves. SM (00:58:30): But can you share... some people have told me their story, the exact moment that you heard that John Kennedy was shot and killed? Do you remember where you were? Tell me where you were and how you first heard about it? PC (00:58:47): I was in high school. Let us see, that was (19)63, and I graduated already, so it was my senior year. We were having career day. The Friday afternoon? SM (00:59:02): Yeah. PC (00:59:03): We were having career day at my high school, and it was between sessions. I was in the hallway and I heard a voice on the... sorry... a voice on the loudspeaker. And I thought to myself, God, that sounds like a black edged voice. You know black [inaudible]. It sounds like a black edged voice. And I got to the room, the next room where I was supposed to be, and somebody said, "The president has been shot." And after a little while, they said the president was dead and that we were all going to be released. And so my high school was on the other side of town from where I lived so we had to take a bus and it was tears all the way. People in the street were crying, the bus were crying, everybody was crying. And all we could do is sit there in front of the TV and cry all weekend. SM (01:00:16): That is what most people were doing. I was a sophomore. And the thing is, everybody was crying. And then we went home and then we saw the whole weekend. Oswald killed on Sunday on live TV, and then the funeral on Monday. And I remember not even sleeping, I stayed up because they were covering it nonstop on black and white TV. I cannot even think in terms of, was I thinking anything deeper than the loss of a president, what this all meant. I have been reading lately about other people that could have... they thought it might have been a conspiracy. Oh, there was so many things happening and of course- PC (01:00:58): Oh, I thought it was right after it. When I was on the bus... I knew it happened in Dallas, but I kept saying that those damn southerners, those damn southerners to kill our president, they're not part of the country. SM (01:01:15): Have you been to Dallas? PC (01:01:17): Never. SM (01:01:19): I would like to go once, but they say it is exactly the way it was. They made sure that they changed nothing. PC (01:01:27): Oh, right there? SM (01:01:27): Right there at the book depository and the road and everything is just the way it was then. Hopefully one day I will go there. One of the other issues is the issue of trust. It does not seem like the boomers... well, I did not finish the question. In terms of have they been good parents or grandparents in terms of... and by that, this is based on the experiences of people that you know, that they really shared the experiences of what it was like when they were young and the times they went through? Because today's young people do not seem to know a whole lot of history. That is partially because of the schooling system, but what are the parents doing in terms of educating their kids? And today, 85 percent of the college students are now sons and daughters of generation X'ers and they're not the daughters of boomers. But still 15 percent are Boomer children. And they're the ones that had children later. And I often wonder, what have they done to raise kids to be sensitive to the issues that they're facing in the world today? Just your thoughts on- PC (01:02:39): I wish I could tell you. I never had any kids myself. That was a conscious choice because I knew I would be a crappy parent. And that is why I was thrilled about birth control because I did not have to make that decision. But boomer parents always seemed fine to me, but I was not even thinking about it because that was not... they were friends of mine and they got very involved in their kids' lives but as far as what they were telling them about how they grew up, I suspect that they did it a little bit too much. Because I was somewhere recently, at a movie recently, and this dad was telling his kids, "Oh yeah, I went to Woodstock and I was part of Woodstock and blah, blah, blah." And I could see the kid's eyes glaze over as, oh God, not another boomer thing. And I suspect that that probably is not that uncommon. But as far as actually knowing how other boomers raised their kids specifically, I really do not feel qualified to answer. SM (01:03:48): At the university I worked at, before I left back in the mid (19)90s, we had a program where we brought boomers together with Generation X students. PC (01:03:57): Oh, that must have been interesting. SM (01:03:58): And we had two of them. We brought a TV personality in, and there was friction. PC (01:04:02): Was there really? SM (01:04:02): Yeah, there was friction. The faculty members that were on stage were boomers. And of course, they were very frustrated with today's college generation X'ers because first off, they were not activist enough and they did not work hard enough and all the other things. But the results of these sessions, two sessions were very obvious that the generation X'ers really did not care very much about boomers. And I do not think they do today either. And I think they would like them to get lost, basically. Because I do not find millennials, today's college students that way because I think they are fairly close to their parents. And I think they are close in many ways to boomers, but not generation X'ers. And I have even had issues with them personally. They had two responses to the boomers. And that is, "I am sick of hearing about how great it was when you were young. And all the nostalgia, I do not give a damn, I do not care. I am sick of hearing about it. And that is all you live on is the way it was. And I want to live now and I do not want to live back then." And the second group would say, well, "Geez, I wish I lived then because I wish we had the causes that you had." And there was nothing in between. PC (01:05:23): Nothing in between? SM (01:05:24): Nothing in between. It is either I dislike you or I wish I was there when you were there. PC (01:05:30): Remember when we were growing up and the GI', were all talking about the war and what it was like in the war and how you should be grateful to them because they fought the war and the war was everything. You got to the point, I do not know about you, I got to the point where enough. So, you fought the war and thank you very much, but it's over now so you can go do whatever it is that you are doing. I felt about the GI's, the way you're saying the Generation X feels about the boomers. And I do think boomers tend to overdo it sometimes. Come on guys. There were bad things about us too. We were not the salvation of the world. We did make some mistakes. But I think that is just generation to generation. I have been reading women's history in terms of how the suffragettes... I teach courses in film. That is another one of those things that I do. And one course that I was teaching was the jazz age, jazz age film. And suffragettes felt about flappers the way the women's liberation people of the 1970s feel about young women, particularly young women, Gen X. It was like, oh, look, we were fighting and dying for the right... this is the suffragettes. Fighting and dying and starving ourselves and doing all these things so that you can have the right to vote. And now it is 1920 and you have got the right to vote and a lot of you are not even bothering. And what the flappers were saying to them was, thanks a lot, we will use it if we need it, thanks very much, but that is all we owe you. And you will find a lot of the gen X'ers and I am not sure about millennials, who will say the same thing. Yeah, you worked really hard to get us these rights, but you have done it, so let it go. It is just the way of the world, I think. SM (01:07:39): Well, good point. Very good point. Because the Generation X'ers, they are the ones that were born between (19)65 and (19)80. PC (01:07:52): I was not sure what their date was. SM (01:07:53): (19)65 to (19)80 and then (19)81 begins the millennials, which really have a lot in common with the boomer generation. Not as well-educated though I- Not as well-educated though, I think. One of the issues too is the issue of trust. Do you feel that the Boomers having a problem as a generation with lack of trust? I mention this because I consider personally that not trusting your government is healthy because it shows descent and freedom of speech, and political science professors will actually teach that in the classroom, that it is healthy. But the Boomers even go way too far. They did not trust anybody when they were young in position of responsibility, whether it be university president or the President of the United States or governor, senator, religious leader, or a leader in a corporation. They did not trust any leaders, and that is because they felt they were lied to so many ways and you could not trust them. So, do you think they have passed this on to their kids and we are just not a trusting... PC (01:08:59): I think we should [inaudible]. I think what you say is true. I think Boomers did have a huge, huge trust situation. But I think that really that is a result of having grown up in a situation where it... Like in the 1950s and all leaders were exemplary, all leaders of business were exemplary. You just assumed that these guys were made of good stuff, that they rose to the top of the ranks because they were worthy of it. Then all of a sudden, so that is where you grow up. You start out with being a very trusting person. Oh, if you are an authority, I cannot speak for [inaudible], because I was not a [inaudible] person, but those people in position of authority are trustworthy, honorable people. Then when you get to the time of your life when you are starting to question anyway, big time, whammo, all these cracks appear and so you're not only going through the standard adolescent questioning, but you also have much heightened expectation, much more heightened expectation than you would, excuse me. I just ran up and down the stairs. SM (01:10:27): Oh, how did you do that? PC (01:10:30): Oh, I have got a cell, or not a cell phone. I have got a... SM (01:10:32): Oh, okay. PC (01:10:33): ...mobile phone. SM (01:10:34): Okay. PC (01:10:35): But basically, so you have got people who are brought up to really believe in the system, to really believe in the people who run the system, and then it is hard to take small cracks. But by the time Kennedy is killed, you are starting to see some huge fissures there, and then how are you ever going to trust after that? If you grew up in a fairly cynical background and cracks appear, then you say, "Well, that is life." But when you grow up in this sanctified atmosphere, the 1950s and the cracks appear, you cannot handle it. That is my theory. SM (01:11:15): Yeah. I go back to the 1950s again. I want your thoughts on the beat generation, which was that part of that silent generation that wrote those books, whether Ginsburg, Kerouac, and looked at the beats, how influential were the beats on the Boomers when they were young, and then this one as well. This was the first TV generation, and they saw the news on TV, sitcoms in black and white in the (19)50s. How important was TV in shaping the lives of Boomers, particularly when they were in elementary school? Because yeah, they might not have been able to think politically yet, but they saw shows like Howdy Doody, Hopalong Cassidy, TV westerns in which the Native American was always the bad guy, and the variety shows, the game shows, life coverage of historic events. The McCarthy hearings, if you are young enough to remember them, this man shouting that everybody is a communist, the Mickey Mouse Club, Captain Kangaroo. The media seemed to play an important part consciously and subconsciously in shaping this generation. Just your thoughts on TV and radio and the influence it had on the Boomers. PC (01:12:30): Okay. I will start with your first question first. That is about the beat generation. As I mentioned, I was reading a little bit of Kerouac, but I just want to give you an anecdote from my own personal experience. I started college in 1964, and we were on the old campus then, and it had buildings spread out all over town. On my very first day of college, I went down to get something in the cafeteria and saw a small room off the side of the cafeteria, and I was looking for someplace to eat my sandwich. I walked in there and it is where the beatniks hung out. My hair stood on end. All of a sudden, it was like, "Oh my God, there are such people. These people, there's..." So, I started hanging out there, although I could not... I was still living at home and stuff, so I was considerably restrained, but I got to hang out with beatniks, listen to them talk, listen to their music, listen to their basic assumption. One guy was a guy called Lester Greenberg, and he was actually one of Arand's [inaudible] part-time. She had a lot, but I was so excited, and I have always been fascinated by the beat in general as far as how much influence they had on the Boomer generation, I would say as themselves, not a huge amount, but as far as the CARNA culture, when it started happening, people were reading beatnik literature. So I would say not a huge amount. Me personally, huge. SM (01:14:22): It is amazing. Ginsburg seemed to be everywhere. PC (01:14:27): [inaudible] was. I took a class with Ginsburg. It was a poetry class. SM (01:14:30): You did? PC (01:14:31): Yeah. SM (01:14:32): What was that like? PC (01:14:35): He was so pompous and he was so full of himself that I was really irritated with him. Basically, this was out in Tucson years later, but it was all about, "I am the great God, Allen Ginsburg, and so you are going to listen to every word I have to say, and now you are going to do a few exercises and read your pathetic little poems." So, I was not too impressed. I was impressed by the fact that I had taken a class of Ginsburg. I was not impressed by Ginsburg himself. So, I would say there was not a lot there. But that is, again, these are all just my points of view. But as far as the TV thing, I think that that was huge. I think it was huge because it gave us one identity you had in a way that they certainly do not have anymore. You had your three channels at most, and not even very much PBS then, as I recall. So, everybody saw the same programs, everybody was on the same page, and you kind of felt, if... We got one of the first TVs on our block, we were very popular people during that time. Then when as other people got their TVs, not so much. But I think it was huge, just in terms of the fact that it gave us a single point of reference. I think maybe, and I had not thought about this before until you just asked it now, I think basically that is what coalesced the Boomers, because you all did come from the same spot. With Ed Sullivan, once he brought Elvis Presley in, and then the Beatles, you started going that way culturally too. "Oh, this is what is happening. Is not this exciting?" Again, the media is saying, "This is exciting. This is what is happening." SM (01:16:39): Well, TV westerns dominated television in the (19)50s, and of course, cowboys and Indians and guns and shooting, and did not think anything about the links between war. You just had a good time with your Hopalong Cassidy outfit and everything. PC (01:16:55): Exactly. SM (01:16:56): But I, as a kid, but as later on, I got to think Howdy Doody, I never saw a Black face in the audience for Howdy Doody or Rudy Kazootie or any of those shows. PC (01:17:06): I do not think they did have any. SM (01:17:07): Mickey Mouse Club was all white people. PC (01:17:11): Remember American Bandstand? They started bringing some Blacks in. SM (01:17:13): Yes. Dick Clark. Yep. But I did not, and of course, Amos and Andy was a very big show in the very beginning of the (19)50s, and that was a with African Americans. But there was nothing from that show until about the (19)60s except for Nat King Cole. It was amazing. Of course, the way they portrayed African Americans the way they talked, and it was kind of negative. I think about these later on. PC (01:17:40): Oh, okay. SM (01:17:42): Okay. I got a couple of things here. What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? PC (01:17:46): It means a lot to me because, for one thing, I was fascinated by Maya Lynn in her story and the fact that she was the one that designed it. A young architecture student, Asian descent. I thought that whole story was fascinating, right from the giddy-up. But I did a documentary a few years ago on the History of War Memorial. SM (01:18:11): Yeah, I noticed that. PC (01:18:11): So naturally, I was very interested in the Vietnam Memorial, and I had not been there ever until I started working on that documentary. I went down there and I thought, "Well, it is a splash in the ground. It is very conceptual. It is very strong as being a concept, but I am not sure how it will play out 100 years from now when all the people are dead who were in that war or directly affected by that war." So we went there, and by the time I reached the middle, I completely collapsed in tears. There is something so powerful about that memorial, and I wish I could tell you what it was. I do not know what it is. I guess just being overwhelmed by all the names. SM (01:18:58): It has gotten so many responses. Most people think it is... Well, it had a lot of criticism at the beginning, as you well know, when the wall was, designs were coming in, and that was finally picked, that brought up all the divisions again in America that had been in the (19)60s, because a lot of people thought it did not do justice for one reason or the other. But that is kind of waned somewhat. But there are still some veterans that do not like it, and they do not, but most do, but... PC (01:19:24): Well, that is an age-old thing too. Do you want something representational or do you want something abstract. They have their Korean memorial right across the way, which is extremely represents. SM (01:19:38): Of course, the new World War II Museum, which took too long to build. [inaudible] wrote a book called To Heal a Nation. He felt that this wall was supposed to be non-political, and basically heal the veterans and the families and those who served. It may have done a halfway decent job with that group, but he also thought it was going to heal the nation and play an important role. Do you think that walls played an important role in healing the nation from this war? PC (01:20:07): No, I do not think so. I wish I could be more specific. Basically, the wars, one of the things I learned in studying war memorials and how and why they are built and why they look the way they do, is that war memorials are built for the people or for the generation who suffered from the war. They speak to that generation. You in 200 years from now, it is going to be an interesting piece of artwork. That is, it. As far as healing the nation, a wall cannot heal a nation, even a statue cannot heal a nation. I do not think that any piece of material, anything could heal a nation. Possibly a film could, although I cannot think of a good enough film that would have done that. SM (01:21:01): So, what is interesting about the World War II Memorial is World War II vets who fought in Europe are upset with it because it reminds them of Hitler. Hitler had these columns and things like this memorial, and he felt some of them were pretty upset with it. So, it is interesting. PC (01:21:18): So, all triumphant, again, you are talking to somebody who's like, this is the bee in my bonnet. Basically, all triumphant civilizations go back to a classical style. That classical style in this case is the Roman. This is a very Roman kind of memorial. Hitler did it because of the glorification of the Third Reich. But also, if you go back to any... World War II was a triumphant war. I mean, we clearly won, there were clear objectives that were clearly obtained. So, they are going to celebrate that with a triumphant style. We do World War I, that is not at all what those four memorials look like, because it was a very disillusioning war. So, I think for them to say, it is like Hitler. Well, Hitler was like the Romans, and that same sense of Roman triumph is behind this particular memorial. SM (01:22:27): What do you think of Kent State and Jackson State? PC (01:22:32): Kent State was devastating. I remember coming home, I do not remember where I was at the time, but I came home and I was looking at the news on the TV not paying any attention. I see these guys shooting these students, and for some reason it did not register. I said, "What are they playing that old Nazi war footage from?" Suddenly, I realized, this is today. These kids are being shot by American soldiers or by National Guard, and this is happening in our streets. How can this happen? I was shocked, afraid, devastated in talking about losing any shred of trust you might have in the government. That was the final nail in the coffin. SM (01:23:20): What does Watergate mean to you? PC (01:23:24): Watergate Gate was just, I just saw it as same old, same old in terms of, yes, these people are corrupt. Yes, these terrible things did happen. But yeah, it has been going on for years and it is going to go on for years more. SM (01:23:39): What did Woodstock in the summer of love mean to you? PC (01:23:46): Woodstock I thought was exciting. As a matter of fact, I had tickets to go and then changed my mind because of the weather. But I liked that whole thing. It was all a big experiment. It was all something. It was all about music and just relaxing and enjoying yourself. So that is what that meant to me. You said Jackson State? You mean Ole Miss and... SM (01:24:12): Yeah. Jackson State also. Two students were killed three weeks later at Jackson State right after Kent State. So, it was... PC (01:24:19): Oh, I did not, you know what? I tell you the honest truth, I guess I did not pay any attention to that. SM (01:24:24): They try to make sure Ken State that they include both at the remembrance ceremony. So yeah, Woodstock. Yeah. Do you still have your tickets for Woodstock? PC (01:24:35): No. I bet they would be worth a fortune now. SM (01:24:38): They would be worth a lot. Of course, the next one here is, what does 1968 mean to you? I think we have gone over... PC (01:24:44): Yeah, I think we did go over... SM (01:24:46): What does the counterculture mean to you? PC (01:24:48): The counterculture now or then? SM (01:24:50): Then. Because Theodore Rozak wrote that great book, the Making of a Counterculture. It was a big popular book. PC (01:24:58): Theodore Roosevelt? SM (01:24:59): Rozak, Theodore Rozak. PC (01:25:01): Oh, okay. I was going, "I do not know about a counterculture in 1900." Well, the counterculture was the whole network. Everything from SDS to hippies and hate Ashbury. That is what it means to me. Basically, anybody who was questioning and living a different... Questioning the way things were and living a different way than they were taught was the norm when we were growing up in the (19)50s. So that sort of was... SM (01:25:33): Yeah. My next one was just the hippies and the yippies. PC (01:25:38): Yeah, they were fun. They were just absurd. I mean, the hippies were honestly just trying to be left alone and express themselves in whatever way they chose to express themselves. The yippies were just absurd. They were [inaudible] all over again. I remember I went to a talk with Abby Hoffman before he went underground just talking about the yippies. It was all about fun. It was all about the absurd way of driving your point home. It was just another way to do get to do the work. SM (01:26:16): So you saw Abby. I saw Jerry at Ohio State and... PC (01:26:19): Okay, I saw him too later on. SM (01:26:21): Yeah, he had the bandana and the thing on his face there, the lines. But they were two unique and different people in the end. PC (01:26:32): Oh, extremely. SM (01:26:33): Abby was the real deal. I think Jerry was just an imposter in many respects. Even Abby says this later on, even though they were friends to the end. But can you talk about that experience to seeing Abby Hoffman? Because I have not talked to too many that saw him. I never saw him. What kind of, supposedly he had a charisma that was just unbelievable and he made people laugh. PC (01:26:58): He did. SM (01:26:59): But he was also very serious. PC (01:27:01): Well, but see, that was when I was just telling you that I saw Abby Hoffman. It was all about fun. That is where that came from. He was just so, at the time that I saw him, he was actually talking at [inaudible] at the State University of New York at Albany later. But it was before he went underground. He was just talking about, I cannot remember a single word that he said, except that you just had this feeling of joyous, absurd. Let us just have a good time with this. Do not take anything too seriously. Just do this for the hell of it, kind of. That was the impression that I got from him. Just as you said, he was funny. It was laughing. It may have been serious, but you were laughing and taking it all in that. SM (01:27:59): I heard stories from other people that said he made, even the policeman who arrested him, laugh. When he was in jail, he made them laugh. He was just a, well, he was different. PC (01:28:13): Well, he knew that basically life is a joke. I mean, nothing is going to last forever. SM (01:28:20): Your thoughts on Students for Democratic Society and the Weatherman? PC (01:28:25): I thought they were very romantic figures. Now, I think they are appalling. But at that time, even though I did not want to be them, because I could not quite go that extra sort of violent mile, I still thought they were very romantic figures fighting against the establishment and actually using the weapons of the established. Then I just thought, "Great, these guys are romance." SM (01:28:57): Well, but in the Port Huron statement, no one knew that they would end up becoming the Weatherman. So that is what really split SDS is when they became the Weatherman and Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Your thoughts on them? PC (01:29:15): I was thrilled to see that they were speaking out for something that they thought was wrong, and they just did not say, "Okay, so we fought. So, everybody has got a fight." That they said, "There is something essentially wrong here, and we are going to speak out whether we were part of the war or not, right is right," and so I have huge admiration for them for that. SM (01:29:42): They kind of took over the anti-war movement when SDS died right to the very end. The other one is the Young Americas for Freedom, which is a conservative group, but they were also against the war, and they are still very popular. Just came back from a conference down in Washington. The new students are still there. You do not see them a lot on college campuses. Did you ever see them at all, or? PC (01:30:04): No, I never did. SM (01:30:05): That was Bill Buckley's group. Then of course, the Enemies List. We all know about the Nixon's enemies list. PC (01:30:12): Yeah, I think we are all convinced we were on Nixon's enemies list. SM (01:30:17): What are your thoughts also on the Black Panther? [inaudible]. But this is great. A couple things, the Black Panthers, of course, had so many unique personalities from Bobby Seale to Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, H Rat Brown, Dave Hilliard, Elaine Brown, Stokely Carmichael. The list goes on and on here. They, of course, were the symbol of Black Power. They challenged Dr. King and the other civil rights leaders. Then of course, you had Malcolm X, who died in 1965. But even he challenged the civil rights leaders like Byard Rustin. There is two historic scenes that I know your husband was well aware of when I talked to him. Anybody who knows the (19)60s remembers when Stokely Carmichael was next to Martin Luther King in that historic picture. He was telling King, "Your time has passed." Then the other one is the debate that Malcolm X had Byard Rustin, where he told Byard, "You, like Dr. King, your time has passed on. Nonviolence is not the way anymore. It is by any means necessary." Those kinds of things. Your thoughts on Black Power and the Black Panther Party. It has challenged to the established civil rights group, which really challenged America in the (19)50s and early (19)60s. PC (01:31:52): As far as my personal experience with the Black Power guys, I was always a little scared of them because I grew up in a white suburb, and we did not know any Black people. Even my high school did not have any Black students or anything. So then I went to college and there were a lot of Black kids, mostly from New York City. I got to know a few of them, but in general, I was scared of them, just not the [inaudible] point on it. So as far as Black Power, when I thought, "Yeah, I understand why they are doing that, but I am still frightened of them." Interesting because I was not frightened of the SDS. As far as time has gone on, I think the great tragedy of the Civil Rights movement is when they moved from [inaudible] and the demonstrations of the (19)50s and (19)60s to the [inaudible], the violence of the Black Panthers and stuff. That was too bad because the original guys who were working non-violently to get where they were going, had the ideals had, it was not slogans to them. They were literally willing to put their lives on the line. I never got that feeling from the Black Power guys. They were willing to put my life on the line. SM (01:33:29): I know that David Horowitz, who used to be the editor of Ramparts, you know David? He went from being extreme left to being a conservative speaker, and he attacks the new left, the old left, the Black Panthers in particular, because someone he worked closely with was killed. He blamed one of the Black Panthers of doing it. He changed immediately and he attacks them constantly. But there were a lot of good things that the Black Panther Party did, the food programs. So there was a lot of really good things. So we tend to concentrate more on the radical aspects than some of the good things they did. But there is truth to it. One of the historic points is at Kent State University, you will not see an African American student at that protest. They were instructed by their... PC (01:34:18): Kent State? SM (01:34:19): Yeah, at Kent State, back in 1970, when the killings took place, there were no Black students, because Black students were not supposed to be at anti-war protests around 1970. They were together. In the late (19)60s, white and Black students were working together against the war. But then there was a split and Black students concentrated on what was going on in America. White students continued to fight for what was going on in Vietnam. So there was a big split there. You saw that even in the early (19)70s at Ohio State with the Afros and kind of more of a separation kind of aspect. So, everybody has different feelings about that period. PC (01:35:01): Yeah. SM (01:35:02): How important were the college students in ending the Vietnam War? We're talking about, and why did the Vietnam War end in your opinion? PC (01:35:11): I think college students were very important in bringing the whole issue to the forefront. They were not just going to let it sit back there and simmer. So I think that the way it was done with teachings, with closing down the schools, with the demonstrations, constant demonstrations and constant organizations, I think they were very, very important. Why did Vietnam stop? I think that there was a lot of truth to the fact that it stopped because there was not popular support at home. I think that the government, the people who were serving in government saw that this was not going to get them reelected. I was in a demonstration in DC I think it might have been the last one, and we were marching toward the White House, like a zillion people were marching toward the White House, and suddenly from the opposite direction came all these kind of thoroughly steamfitter, pipe fitter Union 109 kind of guys. I thought, "Oh, this is it. This is where we get our heads bashed." In fact, they carried these signs saying, "[inaudible] 109 Against the War in Vietnam." I went, "That is the end, guys." When those guys are joining forces with the students, there is no way they can keep this war going that much longer. So, I think that the reason it stopped is because finally enough people said, "There is no point here." SM (01:36:51): I know there was that historic scene in New York City where the hard hats wanted to beat the crap out of the anti-war people. Remember that? That was in the late... PC (01:36:59): [inaudible] I thought were-were... SM (01:37:00): Yeah. PC (01:37:01): That is when I saw those guys. So by that time, they had all come around like, "Why is my kid dying in Vietnam? What's the point here?" SM (01:37:10): You were in college from (19)64 to (19)68? PC (01:37:13): Yeah. Then I sort of dropped out ish, sort of, the end of (19)67, I dropped out. SM (01:37:23): Where did you get your degree? PC (01:37:24): I got my degree at... Well, I went to the University of Arizona when I moved there and took some credits there, plus combined them with the credits from the State University of New York and then a community college. I had picked up a few credits there that were applicable. By that time, the State University of New York had a program called the Regents College in which allowed you to take all your credits, acceptable credits from whatever colleges or universities you have gone to. Because of the way, I guess because of the mobility of so many people, you could get your degree finally from there. So that is what I did. My degree is from the Regent College from the university. I think it's called the University of New York State College. SM (01:38:11): Yeah. I went to SUNY Binghamton. You probably know that. PC (01:38:13): You did? SM (01:38:14): Yeah. So that is my school, undergrad that is. I went to Ohio State to grad school. The question I want to ask you, and this is very important to me. I am one of those guys that never missed a lecture, debate, forum, or whatever. I went to everything at SUNY Binghamton in Ohio State, everything. But do you remember, you already talked about that you saw Abby Hoffman, that Allen Ginsburg was one of your teachers. Was there a professor in any of your classes that truly inspired you and why? Secondly, who were some of the other speakers or programs that you went to when you were in college that really had an impact on you or that you remember? PC (01:38:57): Oh God. Well, as far as speakers, there was, remember I was always an artsy fartsy kind of a gal. But they had a week with three, it is funny, they had a week with John Cage, Merc Cunningham, and Robert Creeley, the three heavy hitters of basically, they were all beatniks too of the art scene in New York. I spent the whole week going to workshops and discussions with them. So that was huge. SM (01:39:31): Wow. PC (01:39:34): I am sorry, what was the first part of the question? SM (01:39:37): It was about the people that if, was there a professor that really inspired you in your undergraduate years? Just the way you taught the messages that were delivered that inspired your sense of learning? PC (01:39:51): That really, really inspired me. There was a history teacher whose name I do not remember, but you can see I [inaudible] they inspired me. But he did ask the question. I mean, he did open my brain to ask questions I had not thought of before. But my Shakespeare teacher was the one that opened my head to Shakespeare, and suddenly I realized he was not so boring anymore. Aside... Oh, I had a teacher, he was a speech, what was it? Speech interpretation, kind of performance art kind of guy. His name was Kevin Quinn. He was a friend of Andy Warhol's, and I do not know how he ended up in Sunny, but we all hung out together. As a matter of fact, Warhol or whoever, you know how Warhol always had look-alikes impersonate him? SM (01:40:48): Yes. PC (01:40:48): So either Warhol or one of his crew was at one party, but they used to hang out together. The reason this guy really influenced me was because he would crack your brain open in terms of the people, the writers. He would open you up to the questions he would ask, the basically cultural and art stuff that you would just see and understand and less of that. His apartment was always open to everybody. So he was very influential in saying, "How does the world work? What is art all about?" That sort of thing. The fact that he hung out with that whole factory crowd. SM (01:41:38): Yeah, yeah. Of course we all know about Edi. I read the book on Edi, which was... PC (01:41:44): What a tragic figure. SM (01:41:45): Yeah, what a tragic figure. She is beautiful too. She did not live very long. But the question, you are the first person I really talked to outside of David Lance Goins out of Berkeley, who is an artist from the Free Speech Movement. What was it about the arts from the (19)60s that were different than anything else? What was it about... From the (19)60s that were different than anything else. What was it about the art that was comparable to what was really happening? We all know about Andy Warhol, and we all know about Peter Max because Peter Max had all those posters on college campuses. I do not know if many people think of anybody beyond Warhol and Max. PC (01:42:19): The poet... I mean, there was a whole lot of poetry stuff going on and then there were of course happenings and all kinds of performance, but film started opening up. And that is one of the things also that completely changed my life. In the 1960s, they started things called film studies. This is when they started to actually study film on campus as a legitimate form, just like literature or art or sculpture, architecture, whatever. Film was another thing that you could study. And right from the very first classes, I went and said, "What is all this about?" You get to see movies. Well, that is nice, but you found out how to look at movies. How do movies influence you? Why do you feel the way you do when this happens? What about this camera angle? And it was completely, to me, that is when they legitimized film. Film was a legitimate medium before that. But when they started taking it seriously so that you could actually say, "Here is a whole new medium for us to work in." And I think film is the medium of the Boomer generation. It is more, music is now, film has become... Video and film has become very basic for the generation. But at that time, it was almost the same kind of explosion that happened in Russia when the beginning of film happened. When they started taking their cameras around, when Vertov took... Man with a camera, the saying, going on... All that excitement that happened in France when film was starting. And then of course, in the (19)60s, you had the New Wave in France, "And here is something else you can do with film and here and here and here." So, I think as far as the arts go, in the (19)60s and (19)70s, it was all about film. To me. I mean, there was a lot going on in poetry. There were a lot of experiments like Pynchon's the Crying of Lot 49, and some seminal books like that. But it was all about film. SM (01:44:31): Of course, when you think of the (19)60s, we have got to also think about what is going on around the world. Because we all know what was going on in France and Paris, and exactly what was going on in Hungary or what was going on in Poland and when Dubcek was overthrown in 1968 too. And of course, what was going on in Spain and England and all over the... Italy. I mean, there were protests, even in Japan. There were protests and a lot of them were against the war. But when you look at the film... Because I am only... Not too many people talked about the film. What were the films that really defined the Boomer Generation that you feel... It does not always have to be the (19)60s and (19)70s, but what are the films that you feel truly defined the generation? PC (01:45:15): Well, Easy Rider was giant. I think that as far as... If we are starting from the (19)60s, I think Easy Rider was giant. I think that Bonnie and Clyde was giant because it changed the language of film. This is going to sound bizarre, but Rocky and Bullwinkle. SM (01:45:42): On TV? Oh, yeah, I remember they were on TV when we came home from school. PC (01:45:47): Right. And the thing about Rocky and Bullwinkle was these were adult cartoons, masked as kids cartoons. And people started watching them. But that is a different thing. That is not... We are not talking about films here. I am trying to think of some of the other huge films that would have made an impact across the board people would see... I saw stuff like It, from England, the English school, so I do not know how many people saw that. A lot of people saw the Secaucus Seven, and they were involved in that kind of thing. I am trying to... Forgive my senility. I know that after we get off the phone I will- SM (01:46:31): I have a lot of movies that I remember had influence on me, but- PC (01:46:34): Oh, can you say some because- SM (01:46:35): Yeah, well, The Graduate was one. PC (01:46:37): Oh, yeah, of course. SM (01:46:39): And Zabriskie Point. That was a real (19)70s kind of thing. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid was a real big film. I remember when that came out with Paul Newman. And some of the other ones, of course, Taxi Driver and Coming Home. PC (01:46:59): Okay. I never did see Coming Home. SM (01:47:01): Those are Vietnam films. In terms of African American films, I thought Shaft was unbelievable. And in some of those kinds of movies that were out in the early (19)70s, Black film. Let us see. Well, Easy Rider, Five Easy Pieces. Anything Jack Nicholson was in. Also the movie where he played the... Later on, the person who was mentally disabled. PC (01:47:36): Jack Nicholson played him? SM (01:47:38): Yeah. He was in the sanitarium. PC (01:47:42): Oh, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. SM (01:47:42): Yeah. That was a major film because no one had talked about this issue ever. And it was in a film. So those kinds of films... And then when I think of the (19)60s, I think of Love Story. PC (01:47:57): Oh, yeah. I remember that one. SM (01:47:59): Goodbye Columbus. Anything Ali McGraw was in because she was miss (19)60s. PC (01:48:09): Then the Way We Were. SM (01:48:11): Yeah, The Way We Were with Barbara Streisand, because that remember... Even though that was about the 1930s, and it was in early (19)70s, it made me... Brought tears to my eyes, because I knew then that I would be doing the same thinking 30, 40 years from now about the (19)60s. So yeah, there were a lot of them. PC (01:48:30): That is when we really started talking to each other through film. I mean, film had always been around, there would always been film aficionados. But it was, I think in the (19)60s that it exploded. And that was partly because of the fact that film studies programs opened up, but also partly the fact that cameras started getting smaller and you started being able to take... Oh, that was another one. Do not Look Back. Bob Dylan's thing, which I thought it was never going to end. SM (01:48:59): There was the Beatles films too, which were very interesting. PC (01:49:02): Exactly. SM (01:49:03): And Apocalypse Now, which was a classic film. PC (01:49:06): And West Side Story. SM (01:49:07): Yeah. West Side Story. And- PC (01:49:09): I saw that a hundred times. SM (01:49:10): Sound of Music, which is... You can go on and on here some were... PC (01:49:15): Exactly. SM (01:49:15): Yeah. The Pink Panther film- PC (01:49:17): Was important to the Boomers. As far as Boomers in the Arts, I think that that is where their energy started going. SM (01:49:24): Right. And then in the course in the (19)50s, well, there were major films that I saw. A lot of the westerns. So anyways. A couple other questions here, and then I will end up with some questions on individual people. I got so many questions to ask you here. I have different questions for you, and I had them for David. What were, again, I just wondered, what were the books that you were reading when you were in high school and college, and what were your friends reading? Does not necessarily have to be the beatnik books. PC (01:50:00): Yikes. Well, of course there was... Why did my brain just go blank, please? I read a lot of Herman Hesse, I am trying to think how far back that was. I think that was later. I read Catcher in the Rye. Well, I do not know why my brain- SM (01:50:20): He just died. Salinger. PC (01:50:22): I know. SM (01:50:23): That is the only book he ever wrote. PC (01:50:25): Well, no, I read everything he wrote. He wrote Franny and Zoe. SM (01:50:29): He did not write very many novels though, I do not think. PC (01:50:32): Well, Franny and Zoe was sort of... It was a little episodic, but so, definitely everything he wrote, which was not that much. What did I write? You mean of that time? SM (01:50:48): Yeah. Books that may have been... That people were reading. PC (01:50:52): I am trying to think. Pynchon, as I mentioned. And what was the one about the guy? Oh damn. Well, Leonard Cohen wrote a lot of poetry. That, and of course there were a lot... Again, there was a lot of poetry that I was reading. People like Bob Kaufman, Carolyn Getty. Again, these are sort of going back to the beats, but that is what I was reading in early college, late high school. I am trying to think what else because I read constantly. SM (01:51:39): I am from a little later, and I know Greening of America was a big book by Charles Reich. PC (01:51:45): Right. I remember that coming out. SM (01:51:48): And Making of a Counterculture. They came out the same time. PC (01:51:50): And None There Call it Treason. As I mentioned, being a good Goldwater girl. SM (01:51:57): Now, the musicians, I love it. In Charles's book where he does in the introduction about all those musicians. He has got a whole page of them. I do not know if you- PC (01:52:07): Musicians? SM (01:52:08): The musicians of the era that had the greatest influence on Boomers. And then he, you turn the page and there is about 150 of them. But I mean- PC (01:52:16): Yeah, that is because we had the radios. SM (01:52:18): He forgot an important person. He did not put Phil Oaks down, but- PC (01:52:22): I know, I like Phil Oaks a lot. SM (01:52:25): Well, I am going to bring it up on Thursday that... I was trying to think. He missed seven people and groups that I thought should have been in there. But I will mention that to him. Maybe he can add it in an updated edition. PC (01:52:36): There you go. (01:52:37): Another, I always liked the Michener books. SM (01:52:42): The what? PC (01:52:42): Michener. James Michener, like Hawaii. SM (01:52:45): Oh, yes. He wrote Kent State too. 1970. PC (01:52:50): Exactly. And To Kill A Mockingbird. Yes. I like that one. And Winnie Ille Pu. Remember that? SM (01:53:00): Yes. PC (01:53:01): Winnie the Pooh in Latin. (01:53:04): I liked that a lot. SM (01:53:07): The musicians that were your favorites. I know you can... You know after those 150. PC (01:53:09): The entire British Invasion. You can start with the British Invasion, but Motown also. I think it is easier to do categories than it is individual- SM (01:53:21): Yes. PC (01:53:22): But Janice Joplin certainly was my hero. Jimmy Hendrix not so much, I liked a lot of the stuff he did, but more Janice Joplin. More Big Brother and the Holding company. I like Peter Paul and Mary. SM (01:53:42): Yep. PC (01:53:42): A lot. I like The Limeliters a lot. So I mean, basically that goes across folk and... I like folk, but I did not like people like Pete Seeger, who actually the real folk- SM (01:53:52): Is not it amazing that in... And you can see the division right here. When the Beatles came in (19)64, I can remember (19)65, (19)66, (19)67. Then around the Invasion came in six... But you had, before that you had Herb Albert and the Tijuana Brass. That was very popular. And then you had Frankie Valley and the Four Seasons and Frankie Valley, and you had those kinds of groups. Little Anthony and the Imperials, Sam Cook in the early (19)60s, and then all of a sudden it all changed. PC (01:54:25): Exactly. SM (01:54:26): And they were still very important. But you saw the change, but they were still a very important... Beach Boys were earlier, too. You saw that they were all important except in different stages of your life. PC (01:54:37): Exactly. Well, I was never a huge Beach Boys fan. I had friends who were. Who really liked the California kind of sound. But I was more, what I call into minor key stuff. Although I did not like jazz as much. Now I do. I like jazz a whole lot. It depended on the jazz. I love Dave Brubeck, but did not like Thelonious Monk. But in general, I would say the British Invasion, Motown were the two biggest influences. And I also liked classical music. SM (01:55:20): Right. PC (01:55:21): Too, and a little bit... And I loved the blues. Every once in a while, we would go to a blues club. SM (01:55:27): San Francisco, I used to live out there. They used to have great blues festivals at Golden Gate Park. I want to... Here the presidents now. These are the presidents that were part of the life of all Boomers from the time they were born from (19)46 on. PC (01:55:43): Okay. SM (01:55:45): Harry Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, and Obama. Now, Obama makes a claim that he's not a Boomer, but he really is. He was two years old in (19)62, but I guess you really cannot call him a Boomer, but he was in that era. PC (01:56:06): [inaudible] prejudice. SM (01:56:07): But of all those presidents, you have already talked a lot about Kennedy in terms of his assassination, but when you look at the influence that all these presidents may have had on the Boomers, is there some presidents that stick out more than others? PC (01:56:22): Oh, I wish you had just asked me who my favorite was. SM (01:56:24): Yeah, who is your favorite? PC (01:56:26): Carter. SM (01:56:27): Carter? PC (01:56:28): Yeah. I was so surprised that he actually won, because I did not think he had a chance, and I felt like here is finally an honorable man after his predecessors. And so I was thrilled to death that Carter had won. But as far as who was the most influential, well, you would have to say Reagan, whether you agreed with him or not. Certainly a huge influence on everybody's life. Johnson was a man everybody hated. But when you look back at what he actually accomplished, it was amazing. It was really good for this country. I grew up thinking Eisenhower was a president. I mean that... If the word president and Eisenhower were [inaudible] for each other. Nixon of course, again, was the ultimate bad guy to me. So, I do not know as far as who was the most influential, probably Nixon and Reagan, in terms of direct impact on people's lives. SM (01:57:49): I always bring Truman up and people say, "They were only 2, 3, 4 years old." But even though I was a young kid, I remember him because- PC (01:57:58): Do not really remember Truman. SM (01:57:59): The Buck stops here. And he did not like, and he did not like McCarthy. And it was well known that he did not like him. PC (01:58:07): MacArthur. SM (01:58:08): Or, yeah, no McCarthy. Well, he did not like MacArthur either, but during the McCarthy hearings- PC (01:58:15): Oh, I see. Okay. SM (01:58:15): He thought he was a nutcase. And of course, Eisenhower was always the old smiling guy. You felt good that you had a grandfather in office. Then you had a young guy coming in. Then you had Johnson, who should not have been president, but he was because of assassination. Nixon coming back from... Unbelievable how he won after losing in 1960. Then you have Ford, who many people say, was not the smartest guy in the world, but he tried to heal the country. PC (01:58:43): I certainly, I always gave him credit for that. SM (01:58:46): Then you had Reagan, and then Bush I during the Gulf War, and Clinton and Bush were the... But Clinton and Bush II were the only two Boomer presidents. Some people in my interviews have said that you can tell that Bill Clinton and George Bush, number two are Boomers. What do you think they are saying by that? PC (01:59:04): Because they're so... Well, certainly Bush too was a Boomer. He just happened to be from the [inaudible] point of view that I was of this sort of absolute belief that he was correct and that his way was the only way. And that he would... you know, "Screw whatever you guys think. I am doing things my way." So, I think that is true. As far as Clinton goes... I think he is Boomer-esque. SM (01:59:37): When you look at the eras again, when I kind of defined the Boomers into five eras, their elementary school years, their high school and college years, then their beginning of their careers and their twenties, and then... So, I break it down into the (19)40s, (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, (19)80s, and then the (19)90s and beyond. Can... In just a few words, how have the late (19)40s and the (19)50s influenced Boomers? PC (02:00:10): I think that the way they influenced the Boomers with the groundwork for a really stable... I mean you... For really stable life. I mean, you can count on things. You feel safe. You know your place in the world. So, the late (19)40s and the (19)50s did that. They gave you sort of the box to work in. SM (02:00:35): Explain the (19)60s. PC (02:00:37): Is there any explaining the (19)60s? The (19)60s, basically everything blew up. All of our basic assumptions blew up. All the new... From 1964 from The Beatles on... All the experiments in popular culture completely exploded. What are we going to do? All the possibilities were there. First we were shattered through Kennedy's death. And then... Oh, you know what I am leaving out is the entire civil rights movement, which was hugely important, I think. SM (02:01:20): Right. PC (02:01:21): In terms of fighting the bad guys, righting the wrongs. Doing something that would help the world, that people could individually do things that help the world. So that could go back in the (19)40s and (19)50s, I guess, but also in the (19)60s. So basically, I would say (19)60s were the time when the world blew up. SM (02:01:43): How about the (19)70s? PC (02:01:44): The (19)70s were the time when we went... I think that we went from changing the world to changing ourselves and became very inward. It kind of... And at that point started this whole self, self, self-thing. SM (02:02:03): You think we went from being a we to a me? PC (02:02:07): Yeah. I think so. SM (02:02:09): What did you think of disco? You cannot talk (19)70s without it. PC (02:02:11): You know what? I like that music. It is a terrible thing to say. I am sure I am politically incorrect, but I really like disco music, and I like the whole Saturday Night Fever kind of... SM (02:02:22): Yeah. I am a big Barry White fan, so... I think Barry White will go down in history is one of the greatest musicians of all time. And it is a little early to talk about it, but when you look at all the things he wrote and produced, oh my. And we only think about his records. I did not know he was producing concerts at major facilities all over the country. I did not know this. PC (02:02:45): No, I did not know that either. SM (02:02:47): No-no. He is much more than what we saw. He was a true musical writer. He was a kind of a genius. He knew how to play music, but he knew how to write it. And even a lot of the greats from the (19)60s could sing music, but they did not know how to write it, so they kind of experimented. How about the (19)80s? What did the (19)80s mean? PC (02:03:07): The (19)80s was when I was homesteading, so I was kind of completely out of it. I mean, we did not have a TV and we did not have radio. We were up in the mountains and raising our farm animals. So that is kind of hard for me. Although I was staying politically active. I was part of the sanctuary movement in Tucson. I do not know if you remember that. SM (02:03:29): What's that mean? PC (02:03:30): Hmm? SM (02:03:31): What is that mean? PC (02:03:32): Oh, there was a movement called the Sanctuary Movement that helped... Was like an underground railway kind of thing that helped people who were escaping from Guatemala and Central American countries get to safe havens in the United States. And they were illegal actually. They were being run through a Presbyterian church in Tucson. And churches... Well actually, they were pretty much church based. So I volunteered to help out with them when I could. But being up in the mountains, there was not that much I could do. SM (02:04:11): Explain the (19)90s to today. PC (02:04:14): Depressing. SM (02:04:16): That is all I need to hear. Okay. I can say depressing in what way? But then the... Okay. (02:04:29): Let me... There is something here, before we get into the individuals. When you think of the Civil Rights movement, we have not talked a lot about it. Dr. King was obviously crucial. The big four, which was James Farmer and Whitney Young, Wilkins and King, certainly Malcolm X and what he did in the (19)60s. And then we talked about Black Power and some of the changes there. And some of the people, the followed King have been the leaders of the last 20, 30 years, like Andrew Young and Jesse Jackson, and the list goes on. But the Civil Rights Movement was a great role model for the other movements that came in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. The women's movement, the environmental movement, the gay and lesbian movement, to Chicano Native American. You all kind of looked at the Civil Rights movement as a model on how to do protest and non-violent protest, those kinds of things. What are your thoughts on the lengths between these movements and the Civil Rights movements. And secondly, during that period, if you saw Earth Day in 1970, you seem to see all these groups together. All caring about the environment, but as time goes on, you do not see them together as much. They have kind of gone their separate ways, but still involved in the serious issues. So just your thoughts on the movements and their links to the Civil Rights movement. PC (02:05:56): I think you are right when you say that the Civil Rights movement basically gave people a background to know how to organize. Know what worked and what did not. It was kind of an empowering kind of thing. And so, I think you are right when you say that that had a tremendous effect on the other movements, if for no other reason, and that taught them logistics. As far as the environmental movement and the way it brings people together, I really... Because I was totally involved in well, being a homesteader, being alternative energy, all of that stuff, I believed in it, but I really do not feel qualified to say anything about how it worked with other movements. SM (02:06:49): All right. One of the things... When you look at pictures, pictures often say in a thousand words, photography is very important to you- PC (02:07:02): Right. SM (02:07:02): Your career. When you look at the times that Boomers were alive, particularly when they were young, (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, and (19)80s, what are the pictures that may define the generation? In fact, I remember four of them, four pictures that stand out as four of the top hundreds of the 20th century. But when you think of that period, what are the pictures that stand out in your mind? PC (02:07:25): Well, the little girl running in Vietnam that she had just been napalmed. SM (02:07:30): Yep. PC (02:07:31): Remember that little girl? SM (02:07:31): Yep. Kim Phuc. PC (02:07:33): The Kent State. The pictures that came out of Kent State. Wait, I am getting stuck in the (19)60s. Germany. They need to go. SM (02:07:40): But those are two important ones. PC (02:07:42): They are. I am just trying to... God, there is so many. I am just trying to pinpoint… Some of the Avedon things, just the way he handled his pictures. True, they were mostly like fashion shoots, but they were also portraits. And so, the portraits that Avedon did, particularly of Yoko and John, you remember that one- SM (02:08:15): Oh, yes. PC (02:08:16): Kind of partially curled up. So that was just from an artistic point of view. Politically... There were some from Nicaragua that are just kind of hazy in my head now. Oh, I am trying to think. I do not know. It will come to me. But those two pictures, the first two that I mentioned I think- SM (02:08:44): Well, one of the picture... Well, the third one I was thinking of that is really there, is that the athletes were their raised fists at the (19)68 Olympics. PC (02:08:49): Oh yeah, of course. Of course. Yeah. SM (02:08:51): John Carlos, and then Eli, that historic picture of all... Before they were murdered. The group- PC (02:08:59): Oh, and there is that guy kneeling in the street of Vietnam too. SM (02:09:02): Yes. PC (02:09:03): That is getting... he is being shot in the head. SM (02:09:05): Yep. PC (02:09:06): Yeah. SM (02:09:06): That one was there as well. And of course... So, you, you have got quite a few of the classic ones. Also, when you think of phrases that define the generation. I came up with three phrases that I felt define the generation, I want your response. One person... Well, several people gave me a fourth, which I will mention. The three are Malcolm X, number one, where he said, "by any means necessary," which is the more militant, some might say, violent aspect of the period. Bobby Kennedy, using Henry David Thoreau's quote, "some men see things as they are and ask why I see things that never were and ask why not." Symbolic of the activism and the questioning of the era, wanting to make a difference. And then the Peter Max poster that was hanging in my Ohio State graduate school room, which was very popular in 1971, which stated, "you do your thing. I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." Which was kind of the hippie kind of mentality. And then not the other people gave me a fourth one, which was, "We Shall Overcome," which is symbolic of the Civil Rights Movement and the coming together. Is there any slogans that... PC (02:10:24): Well, the ones that instantly popped mine were "Burn, Baby, Burn." SM (02:10:28): Oh, yeah. PC (02:10:29): Which is very indicative of the whole... About what was going on. And then there was Corretta King's "War is not good for children and other living things." And there was a third one that also... Oh yeah, "Tune in, turn on and drop out." SM (02:10:48): Good. PC (02:10:48): I think that that was a really important one that people thought about. SM (02:10:54): Timothy Leary. PC (02:10:55): Exactly. SM (02:10:56): Yeah. (02:10:57): One of the things when we talk about the Civil Rights movement is the sexism that took place within that movement. And that is oftentimes the reason why the women's movement was stronger than it may have been as kind of a shoot off. Were you well aware when you were in college and in your twenties about the sexism that took place and most of the movements that men were in charge and women were kind of second class? PC (02:11:22): I think we did not even think about it that much. I mean, this is the way it was. And later on, when we really started thinking about, "Oh, I am a woman. I can have a say too, other than whispering in my honey's ear at night, and maybe he will take the idea to the rest of the guys." I think we... I was not aware of the sexism because I just did not think in terms of that. It was like, oh, the movement and the guys leading it, and this is the way it is. And that is why one reason for me, Angela Davis was really important because you have this really strong Black woman who was like a leader. That was different. SM (02:12:10): And she was not... A lot of people think she was part of Black Power... I mean, Black Panthers, she was not a Black Panther. She- PC (02:12:14): [inaudible]. SM (02:12:17): She was involved in the prison system with George Jackson and to Black Power, but she was not into the Black Panther party. PC (02:12:27): But she was a real spokesperson. SM (02:12:29): And she still is. She is still writing good books. Why do you feel the term Vietnam and Quagmire, just to bring that those two words up in any conversation today, bring so much tension. PC (02:12:42): Oh, does it? SM (02:12:45): During the Iraq War, and certainly Afghanistan, when we were going over there and people were making comparisons, people said, it is another quagmire in Vietnam. Here go the Boomers again. PC (02:12:57): That interesting because that... It never occurred to me that it would make any... Because it is so obviously true. I guess I never ran into that reaction. SM (02:13:07): Well, it happens on university campuses, particularly amongst Boomers. And so, it is almost like if you even bring up Vietnam and Quagmire, it is like, well, here is the new left again, or here's the bringing back everything that happened back then again to what is happening today. PC (02:13:26): Oh, interesting. No, I had not run into it. SM (02:13:28): And that happened during the Gulf War, too, back in the (19)90s. PC (02:13:31): Yeah. SM (02:13:31): Some of the Vietnam vets talked about it. Let us see. I am almost done here. (02:13:42): One of the things about activism... And you obviously, I think you have been an activist during your life. Activism is different than volunteerism. Today on college campuses, volunteerism is at an all-time high. I would probably say over 90 percent of students are involved in volunteer work of some kind. PC (02:13:58): Wow. SM (02:13:59): Some of it has required and some they just do it on their own. And that is been happening since the (19)80s. So, you cannot be critical of the last two generations of students for volunteerism. But I have always felt that that is not activism, as you define it. Define activism as a 24-7 feeling and living a seven days a week and 365 days a year. And I feel that universities today are afraid of that term "activism" and they do not like to use it. Do you have any sense or feeling that that is a word that people are afraid of today? The term "activism?" PC (02:14:38): I think people have always been afraid of the word "activism" because I think that basically people have said, "Oh, she is an activist. That means that she is strident, she is judgmental, she is angry at the world." So, I do not think people have at any time really felt comfortable with that word. And so, I am not surprised that campuses which do not strike me as bastions of left wing... They are no longer hot beds of left-wing activity. I do not think that they would be comfortable with that word anymore. SM (02:15:19): Of course, the critics- PC (02:15:20): Because nobody is because everybody is kind of threatened by the word. The minute we say activism, they start thinking about closing down college buildings and basically marching of the street’s kind of... SM (02:15:32): Course the David Horowitz is in Phyllis [inaudible] of the world say that the universities are nothing but liberal. PC (02:15:40): I know. SM (02:15:40): And education is the worst it has ever been according to their point of view. PC (02:15:45): Yeah. Well, what can I say? I just... SM (02:15:49): The last question before I just ask the names of people for you to respond, then we are done. Why did the Equal Rights Amendment fail in your opinion? PC (02:15:58): As I mentioned, I just read a book about it, and so basically my opinions are pretty much- PC (02:16:03): And so basically, my opinions are pretty much the same as the book. Between the time they actually passed the amendment and put out to the states to ratify, and the time that they were supposed to be ratified, a lot of states had done what they needed to do to correct the situation in legislation for women. And so it was no longer such a strong issue. For one thing, it took forever to get through. But it was no longer such a strong issue, but then when it came time to vote for the amendment, people would say, "Well look, we have already got the law, they already addressed this situation. So, I think that is why it failed in the end. SM (02:16:47): When Reagan came into power, he made a speech, first speech he said, "We are back" and the place went crazy in a room where he spoke. And then when President Bush one said, "The Vietnam Syndrome is over," he said, "The Vietnam Syndrome is over," and everybody stood up and clapped their hands. It is not only how they said it, but what they said that still implies division in the country. What do you think Reagan meant when he said, "We are back," in 1981 when he became president? And what did President Bush mean in 1989 when he said the Vietnam Syndrome is over? PC (02:17:30): Well I think Reagan really meant the conservatives are back, "You have had your revolution, now it is over. We are back and we are going to take charge." As far as Bush one, I really was not familiar with that speech but I would suspect that his definition for the Vietnam Syndrome might be that, "We are going to have a war and you're not going to protest it to death." I do not know, that is just my hunch. SM (02:18:00): And in 2004 when John Kerry was running for president, the Vietnam veterans that came out against him, remember? PC (02:18:10): The Swift Boat guys? SM (02:18:10): Yeah, and the Vietnam veterans against the war, the divisions were still there. It was amazing some of the terrible things that were said about him. It is indicating that the battle is still continuing. What were your thoughts when you saw that? PC (02:18:24): Well I kept thinking, "The conservatives have the media," period. And so they're going to pick up stories like that. I do not know that that was an everyday kind of thing. I think that the divisions that are in this country are definitely far huger than any other seen in my lifetime, far more divisive, far more profound than at any time and uglier. SM (02:18:47): Could you explain that because this is still the lives of Boomers? PC (02:18:52): It is still the lives of Boomers, but basically the divisions have happened during the last, what, 20 years? SM (02:19:03): Mm-hmm. PC (02:19:04): Wait, but this is 2010. During the last 20 years a lot of it is from the media. Do we take responsibility for the entire division of the country? No, I do not think so. I think that X'ers who are now in their, what, their forties? SM (02:19:21): Mm-hmm. PC (02:19:22): And more, they are certainly a huge part of this. Things have just gotten uglier and uglier and I do not think that you can blame the boomers for all of that. I think it is about time that the X'ers stand up and start taking responsibility about some of their responsibilities in all of this. SM (02:19:48): And actually, some of the millennials because they are now of age to work. PC (02:19:49): They are now of age to work but they have not had the chance- SM (02:19:52): Right- PC (02:19:53): ... to basically really influence the culture the way the X'ers have. And yet the X'ers will influence the culture and say, "Look, it is all the Boomers, it is all the Boomers." I am sick of it. SM (02:20:04): Yeah. Okay, now we are finally down to the names and the terms, and then we will end it. Just very quick thoughts, very quick thoughts. Your thoughts on Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. PC (02:20:15): Two different people. Abbie Hoffman, iconoclast. Do you just want words? SM (02:20:20): Yep. PC (02:20:21): Okay. Abbie Hoffman, iconoclastic, had a great point. Okay, and that is all I will say. And Jerry Rubin was very serious and turned very sold-out. SM (02:20:42): Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda. PC (02:20:45): Tom Hayden, I think, was a sincere guy who stuck to his beliefs or has stuck to his beliefs. Jane Fonda is a child of her century or a child of her generation. She has explored all the different areas and become a lot of different things and in a lot of different ways. SM (02:21:06): Talking about movies, she did Klute and then she also did the one with her dad. Which was... PC (02:21:12): On Golden Pond. SM (02:21:13): That is another classic film, coming to terms there. Timothy Leary. PC (02:21:19): Tim Leary was a very smart guy who basically saw absurdity for what it was and decided to bring drugs to the masses. SM (02:21:27): Smothers Brothers. PC (02:21:29): I loved them, just really amusing and smart in the way that they presented their politics. SM (02:21:36): Laugh-In. PC (02:21:38): Again, very smart in the way it presented what it had to say. And it was just a good time. SM (02:21:49): Huey Newton and Bobby Seale. PC (02:21:53): I think they were sincere radicals who live what they believed. SM (02:21:59): Benjamin Spock and Norman Mailer. PC (02:22:03): Benjamin Spock was a very interesting guy in terms of being a doctor and influencing the way that Boomers were brought up in the first place. And then, continued to delve into what his beliefs really were. I am sorry, who was the other one? SM (02:22:20): Norman Mailer. PC (02:22:22): I do not really know enough about Norman Mailer to make a good statement. SM (02:22:27): William Buckley and Barry Goldwater. PC (02:22:30): Good old Barry Goldwater was an idealist from the right. I think he was a straight shooter and I think that he really did do what he believed. I am sorry, who was the other one? SM (02:22:47): William Buckley. PC (02:22:48): Buckley. Okay, I never agreed much with what Buckley had to say, and yet I really felt that he thought things through. He was funny, he was smart and he actually said what he believed in an articulate way. SM (02:23:06): Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew. PC (02:23:10): Spiro Agnew was a clown and dispensable. Richard Nixon was cracked I believe, but a very smart guy. And he was just insane. SM (02:23:29): Dwight Eisenhower and Gerald Ford. PC (02:23:32): Dwight Eisenhower was like grandpa. He was the definition of the presidency. When I grew up I felt that he was benign. I still feel he was benign. Gerald Ford did his best, as I said earlier, to heal the nation. I think he was a sincere guy who did the best he could under an amazing set of circumstances. SM (02:23:59): Joseph McCarthy and Eugene McCarthy. PC (02:24:02): Joe McCarthy was an ideologue. If he could have been Hitler he would have been. He was a manipulator. I think that Eugene McCarthy was a very sincere guy. Well he certainly was not as politically savvy as he needed to be to get his stuff done. SM (02:24:24): George McGovern and Robert McNamara. PC (02:24:28): Robert McNamara was a liar and he was an opportunist. Eugene McGovern- SM (02:24:39): George. PC (02:24:41): Oh, George McGovern, sorry. SM (02:24:42): Yep. PC (02:24:45): I do not really know enough to say. He was an idealist and he tried his best, but he was ineffective, I thought. SM (02:24:52): How about Sargent Shriver and the Peace Corps? PC (02:24:57): With both of those, great idealism and an effective way to actually put your idealism to work. I think that it actually mobilized a generation. SM (02:25:09): John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy. PC (02:25:12): John Kennedy, I used to think a lot more of him than I do now. But he was articulate, he knew how to mobilize the idealism of the people under him and the idealism of the nation. He had a lot of good things that he did. He had a lot of really terrible things that he did. Robert Kennedy was a sly dog. He was obsessed by certain ideas that he followed. SM (02:25:48): Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr. PC (02:25:52): Martin Luther King, Jr., I think really, he had his finger on what I believe in, which is non-violence as much as possible. I think that he was an amazing organizer. He did not have too much respect for women but that is his issue. And so I think he was effective. As far as Malcolm X goes, I can certainly understand why he felt the way he did, and yet it is very hard for me to accept somebody who advocates violence the way he did. SM (02:26:25): Lyndon Johnson and George Wallace. PC (02:26:29): Oh, interesting combo. Lyndon Johnson was the ultimate politician who was the smart guy in terms of knowing how to manipulate people and manipulate the system, the situation. And I used to think a lot less of him than I do now. But at least he used his power to get social programs through and to do a lot for this nation. George Wallace, I do not know what to think of George Wallace. He is certainly, obviously not flavor-of-the-month with me because I do not believe in any of the things he believed in. But aside from that I have no... SM (02:27:15): Okay, Ronald Reagan and Hubert Humphrey. PC (02:27:19): Hubert Humphrey was ineffective, and that is why he did not get to be president. And Ronald Reagan used all of his abilities as an actor to get to where he wanted to go. He believed in what he said he believed in. I think he was honest that way but I also cannot agree with his policies at all. SM (02:27:46): Okay, Daniel Ellsberg and Daniel and Phillip Berrigan. PC (02:27:51): The Ellsbergs and Berrigans were friends of my sisters, so I believed in what they did. I believed that they did what they believe to bring the issues to the American people. And if you had to do that by dramatically pouring blood on some draft files then that is what you did. But I am not aware of how much they did after that, besides writing. SM (02:28:21): How about the women leaders, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Freidan, that group. PC (02:28:28): Three different people. Gloria Steinem, I liked the way she's handled her involvement with the women's movement. Everything from her essay on being a Playboy Bunny so that people could see what it was actually like being the glamour girl of the movement. Bella Abzug and Betty Freidan, very serious women, very driven by their vision. And flexible, certainly, on Freidan's part. So, they do not leave a huge impression beyond that. SM (02:29:16): Tet, which was very important in (19)68 and John Dean. PC (02:29:23): John Dean, I will do John Dean first. John Dean, I hated him because I thought that he was so whiny, just like the whole rest of the Watergate guys and arrogant. He thought he could get away with anything and then, whammo, he was off to the slammer. And so I had no sorrow for that piece of information. The Tet Offensive was appalling and I think it was hard for anybody to trust after that [inaudible]. SM (02:30:03): Muhammad Ali and William Kunstler. PC (02:30:06): Muhammad Ali, I liked from the minute he hit the world was his Cassius Clay-dom. I liked the way he made poems. Even though he would say appalling, "I am the best," that kind of stuff, I never really felt that he took himself all that seriously. He promoted himself, to be taken so seriously, I do not think so. So he was amusing and he was valuable because he was amusing, but he also made the statement that he needed to make about the Vietnam War and the other thing. And then William Kunstler, I never had a huge since of anything was real clean. He was there. He was partaking of history, but I had no strong... SM (02:30:52): How about the AIDS crisis and Harvey Milk. PC (02:30:58): Oh, the AIDS crisis. I am sorry, I thought you said the age crisis. The AIDS crisis was so badly handled. And so many more people died because of screw up than had to. It's been really sad. And then Harvey Milk, I do not really know that much about him. I know he was a good guy. I know, essentially, what he did, particularly for gay rights. And I think it was horrible that he was murdered. But I do not have any strong feeling. I do not know much. SM (02:31:35): How about the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in (19)64, and Stonewall? PC (02:31:41): Free Speech Movement, I loved the idea but I thought they got silly about it. Because free speech is not about being able to say fuck. Free speech is about being able to say, "This guy is a crook," or "There is something wrong here." So as far as the actual use of the naughty word, I thought it got too silly. [inaudible] said it was [inaudible]? SM (02:32:09): Stonewall. PC (02:32:10): Stonewall. Stonewall was just heartbreaking, serious. SM (02:32:20): And Earth Day. PC (02:32:22): Earth Day is, it is a nice little celebration. SM (02:32:29): When the best history books are written on the Boomer generation, whether that be 50 years after a particular era or after they pass, what do you think sociologists and historians will say about the Boomer generation, their legacy? PC (02:32:50): It depends on who is writing it. SM (02:32:52): Good point. PC (02:32:52): If it's Generation X they will do nothing but cream them. If it is, say, an unknown generation many years down the road, basically it will depend on their point of view. Whether they're the kind of people that like to tear things apart and rebuild it. How do people look at the French Revolution? I think that is what it is now. Basically, the terror that happened after the French Revolution, some people say it was a good thing. Some people say it was horrible. So I think that will be the same, the same way of viewing it. It depends on your need for structure and your need for stability as to how you will view the Boomers. SM (02:33:42): What do you hope your legacy will be once you are gone? And I know you have said a lot of things already, but how did you become who you are? PC (02:33:54): What I would hope my legacy would be is that I inspired people to do something greater than they thought they could do, or to see things, to see the world around them. That is what I do in my movies. What made me who I am, a number of things. I grew up Catholic. That was extremely influential. I was taught to always go for the ideal, to never be happy with the status quo, to work for the poor, blah, blah, the poor, the underprivileged, that kind of stuff. So I think that had a huge influence. And then of course, my family was very staunch Catholic, too, so they did, as well. SM (02:34:55): Yeah, it is interesting that Charles, in his book, talks about the difference between John Kenney and Eugene McCarthy. And their Catholicism is pretty interesting. PC (02:35:06): Oh, really? SM (02:35:06): Yeah, if you read the introduction. I had not seen it before, because I knew that Senator McCarthy did not like Bobby, and we all knew that. PC (02:35:14): Right. SM (02:35:14): But I thought he liked John more. Actually, he did like John more as time went on. But there were problems in the (19)60s and Charles did a very good job in his introduction of explaining the differences. McCarthy thought he was a better Catholic than Kennedy. And a lot of it had to do with when he made the comments about whether he could be president of the United States and that the Catholic Church would influence his decisions because he was a man of conscience. Well McCarthy took offense to that and said, "I do not think Kennedy has a conscience." But he did not attack him for his Catholic faith, but John Kennedy looked at that as attack. And so, they were not very good friends for a while, but when he died McCarthy gave a great speech showing a lot of emotion. PC (02:36:02): Yeah. SM (02:36:04): Yeah. So, anyways, the last thing I want to ask you is here, because on your [inaudible], what does stone pilgrim mean? PC (02:36:14): Oh, as I mentioned, I am a person who hunts down public sculptures. And so therefore, I am a pilgrim of stone or bronze. SM (02:36:23): Have you been to Gettysburg? PC (02:36:25): I have not. That is always been on my to-do list, but it is not a place I have gone. SM (02:36:30): I go there four times. You have got to come because what is really interesting about Gettysburg, you drive on the southern side and you see all these little confederate flags left. You never see anything left on the north side. PC (02:36:40): Really? SM (02:36:42): No, nothing. It is always the South. Yet when I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly last week, she said that the South has healed much better than the North, that the North has never healed from the war and the South has. And so we even got differences of opinion as to who has healed from the Civil War. But one of the things that you mentioned, which is very interesting, you said in your frequent journeys to Europe you provided scope. Her occasional jaunts to South America and Asia have jolted her. Your perceptions and assumptions about the world, what are those? PC (02:37:17): Okay, I am sorry, what did I say? SM (02:37:19): "Her frequent journeys to Europe provide scope to her views. And occasional jaunts to South America and Asia have jolted her perceptions and assumptions about the world." PC (02:37:30): Are you talking in terms of just South America and Asia? SM (02:37:33): Yeah, yeah, because it is on your website. PC (02:37:36): Okay, well, specifically I have gone to Taiwan, which is where my nephew lives. And I assumed, basically, that they would be very concerned about their relationship with China. And also, as far as talking to people who have been to Vietnam, I assume the same thing. It turns out that the generations now could care less. And that really jolted me. I thought the people who lived there would be completely political. They are not political, certainly not in Taiwan, not terribly political people. They just want to get on with their lives, and in Vietnam the same way. From the people I have talked to in Vietnam they do not even know the war, they do not want to know the war. They just want to get on with life. So that was a real jolt. As far as South America goes, we have been to Bogota, which is where David's son lives. At first, I was terrified because I thought, "Oh, my God, we are going to be kidnapped." But the thing that jolted my assumption there is you get so used to it, it's just like walking around the corner, "Now I am in Newport, Now I am in Bogota." It is the sameness, the ordinariness. Not the sameness, but the ordinariness of life there. And the same thing in Taiwan. You expect everything to be so exotic, but in fact, it is really very ordinary, but with different trappings. And so that, I think, is what shapes my assumptions. SM (02:39:16): Why? PC (02:39:17): Why you think it is exotic is because it is not here. SM (02:39:21): This is the last question, so believe me. I have been saying that. But why do you feel that religion seemed to be so important in the (19)50s? Bringing up in a Catholic Church, I am sure there was a lot of people coming to church. I went to the Methodist Church, my grandfather was a minister. PC (02:39:36): Oh. SM (02:39:38): And he was actually raised a Catholic but he rebelled because his father abandoned him and his brother, so he rebelled against the Catholic church and became a Methodist minister. It is a long story. He was the minister of the first Methodist church in Peeksgill, New York from 1936 to 1954- PC (02:39:57): Wow- SM (02:39:58): ... when he retired. And then went and moved to Manhattan and passed away two years later, he was very young. But then it seemed like something in the (19)60s. Just, people were not going to church, synagogue or anything. There seemed to be a lessening of numbers. And I was wondering, was that part of everything that was happening, that people were challenging the church, too? PC (02:40:22): Do you think that those numbers dropped in the (19)60s or after the (19)60s? SM (02:40:25): They were dropping in the (19)60s, in the (19)60s and (19)70s. PC (02:40:27): Okay, well among the young people there was certainly a lot of questioning going on. SM (02:40:34): Right. PC (02:40:38): I think it is because the breaking apart of the basic assumptions of society, that this is what you do, this is how you do it. And then once you open that can of worms, you cannot hold it together anymore. SM (02:40:56): Right. PC (02:40:56): Basically, people are not going to only question, " Well, is this political party, right?" But they are also going to say, "Do I really have to go to church every week? What is the point of this?" That whole breaking apart and saying, "What is the point here?" Basic assumptions, what are the basic assumptions here? SM (02:41:17): Yeah. I was knocking my brain to remember when I first remembered a minister giving a social message. I remember they were always dealing with what was happening in the world. Because I went to church in Cortland, New York when I was a kid growing up. Dr. Nason gave great sermons. And I went to my grandfather's church and he gave great sermons. They were always dealing with religion and God. And I was wondering when the church started making political commentary about what was happening in the world. I know Dr. King did it all the time at his church. PC (02:41:51): Right. SM (02:41:52): And I know probably, Dr. Nason. And they were all doing it, but they were doing it in much more subtler ways than Dr. King. Then everything seemed to change. In the (19)60s ministers and rabbis, they were just about like anybody else. They were starting to give political commentary in church. So, I was wondering if that may have turned people off. PC (02:42:13): Well I went to Catholic grade schools and Catholic high school. And we were taught a lot about questioning and [inaudible] there. And so, we would be more likely to get a priest talking about the rightness or wrongness of a war, or whatever. SM (02:42:36): That is good. PC (02:42:38): But I think you are right. I think in general it did not happen very often until the (19)60s. And then you had that whole brouhaha over liberation theology. The Vatican came out against it. SM (02:42:56): And then, obviously, seeing the Berrigan Brothers and Malcolm Boyd and- PC (02:43:03): Exactly- SM (02:43:03): ...others that is out there on the front lines, Rabbi Heschel. They were not- PC (02:43:10): You have got the Quakers, always- SM (02:43:11): They were not the norm. But then they ended up trying to become the norm, though. Was there any question that you thought I was going to ask that I did not ask? PC (02:43:21): I think you covered everything. I was very interested to find out whether you were going to cover birth control. That was my big thing, I suppose. I said, "Well if he is going to talk to a woman he is probably going to want to talk about birth control." But aside from that, no, I think that you have covered everything I can possibly think of. SM (02:43:36): I know I expect to talk to David. Somehow and some way I have got to get your pictures. Normally, I take pictures in person. Then I am going to put them at the top of each of the interviews. So, at some juncture in the next month, would it be possible for you to send me a couple pictures, and David, a couple pictures of both of you individually? PC (02:43:53): Yeah, sure, no problem, I will [inaudible]- SM (02:43:56): And I do not know if you have my mailing address. PC (02:43:59): I have got your email address. SM (02:44:00): Let me give you my mailing address. It is- PC (02:44:03): Okay, wait a minute. Wait-wait-wait-wait. SM (02:44:05): Certainly. I am going to take Charles' picture in person this Thursday. PC (02:44:09): Oh, good. Love that. SM (02:44:11): My address is 3323- PC (02:44:15): Wait, I cannot find my pen. SM (02:44:17): That was like me, I am always short on pens. PC (02:44:20): All right, I am just going to open a Word document. Okay, I am sorry, 3320- SM (02:44:26): 3323 Valley Drive, V-A-L-L-E-Y Drive. PC (02:44:29): Okay. SM (02:44:30): In West Chester, and West Chester is two words, Pennsylvania, 19382. And I am, of course, Steven R. McKiernan. PC (02:44:40): Okay, great. But you want the pictures via email, right? SM (02:44:44): Yep. Or email, or mail them in person. If you can send them in person I would prefer it through the mail. PC (02:44:55): Okay, I will see if I can... SM (02:44:56): Yeah, two different ones of each of you. And if David has a picture of him in front of his book case or you have a picture of you in front of a bunch of art, I would even love that. I would love to have a close-up, if possible, of both of you. But then, David's a scholar. And I have gotten a lot of pictures of scholars in front of their book shelves or at their desk where they write. And then, you are an artist and a writer. So, if you have a background, too, that will be great. PC (02:45:21): Okay, great. SM (02:45:22): And, well, I am glad I talked to you Patti. PC (02:45:25): Well thank you so much for calling. SM (02:45:26): You and David are a great couple. Have a great day. PC (02:45:30): You, too. SM (02:45:30): Bye. PC (02:45:31): Bye-bye. (End of interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Patti Cassidy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cassidy, Patti ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Political activists--United States; Cassidy, Patti--Interviews Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-02-22 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.33a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.33b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 165:33 Description An account of the resource Patti Cassidy is a playwright and producer. She wrote her first play on a dare in a Mexican border town in southern Arizona. From then on her work has been produced from LA to Paris. Cassidy currently is co-producing a series of readings of plays in the greater Boston area. She has a Bachelor's degree in English Language and Literature from SUNY Albany. https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3c74dcd976a3ea4da8e61af8e6d96296.jpg b265bce0ccdcc0be1c6658e514ddc207 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/48b8566310ade53ddacee94ef0636504.mp3 e89cc478bfad745d02f66f79eed891ab Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-03-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Paul Chaat Smith Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Paul Chaat Smith is a Comanche author, essayist, and curator. He wrote the books Like a Hurricane: the Indian Movement from Alcatraz to the Wounded Knee and Everything You Know about Indians Is Wrong. Smith has also lectured at the National Gallery of Art, Center for the Arts in San Francisco, and the Getty Center for the History of Art and the Humanities in Los Angeles."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13309,"3":{"1":1},"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Paul Chaat Smith is a Comanche author, essayist, and curator. He wrote the books Like a Hurricane: The Indian Movement from Alcatraz to Wounded Knee and Everything You Know about Indians Is Wrong. Smith has also lectured at the National Gallery of Art, Center for the Arts in San Francisco, and the Getty Center for the History of Art and the Humanities in Los Angeles. Keywords Bobby Seale; Pete O’Neal; Black Panthers; Native American/American Indian Movement; Students for a Democratic Society; Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee; Alcatraz; Red Power; Leonard Garment; COINTELPRO; Wounded Knee; Robert Warrior; Raymond Yellow Thunder; Trail of Broken Treaties; Vine Deloria Jr.; Independent Oglala Nation; Self-Determination Act; Bureau of Indian Affairs; Clyde Merton Warrior; LaNada Means; U2 Incident; H. Rap Brown; The Weathermen; Richard Oakes; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Comanche. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 87:01 Subject LCSH Comanche Indians; Authors; Essayists; Museum curators; Smith, Paul Chaat--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Paul Chaat Smith Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Carrie Blabac-Myers Date of interview: Not dated -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:06 SM: Testing 123. Testing 123. Testing 123. [Background comments: Great, super. I have to go back and forth here. Is that TV set on over there or? I guess I will not bother.] When you look at the boomer generation before we get into Native American boomers that is the question. The first question I want to ask is, do Native American boomers those individuals born after 1946, do they identify with this generation of young people that were involved? I know the American Indian Movement was a very important movement and from (19)69 to (19)73 but when you talk about the boomer generation, do you and do Native Americans as a whole identify with that group? 01:02 PS: Yeah, it is kind of a good question. I am trying to remember when I first was familiar with that term, the boomer generation, and like, you know what I made of it at the time, what I think of it now. So, I do not know, I cannot say. 01:22 SM: I will let you hold this and check this every so often to make sure it is working properly. I know what I am saying, but I want to make sure. 01:28 PS: Okay, this is good. 01:30 SM: Yep. 01:31 PS: Okay. So I cannot recall a lot of Indian people I know talking about themselves as boomers but you know, the changes that happened in the United States, you know, post-World War II and someone like me coming of age in the late 1960s. You know, it is clear there was a national and global phenomenon going on. But I think how people connected to that or, you know, if they felt, you know, what they had in common with other people in the same generation, I am not sure. But I think there was definitely a sense of, you know, events happening that, you know, that you are a part of that are the circumstance about, you know, global economy and national events. So I do not know, it is a funny word "boomer" right, it is like you are trying to same, you know, Generation X and Generation Y. You sort of sense, it is sort of, you know, part of this idea of naming something, you know? 02:44 SM: You state something, and in some of the things that you have written that you and your cohort when you wrote that first book, believed that what the counterculture was to white Americans and what the civil rights movement was to black Americans, the American Indian Movement was to Native Americans. And I would like to define it in two ways: number one, how important the American Indian Movement was during that four or five year period, but link it with also that the period prior too, which was "red power", which was like, because I can remember that when I was a student about the Mohawk nation up in Syracuse. They were furious about their land being taken away, and they got students from Syracuse and Binghamton. They were all working together to stop the highway from going through their land. That was Red Power. 03:37 PS: Yeah, I mean, the discussion about boomers and activism obviously overlaps hugely with the idea of the (19)60s. So one of the things that is interesting about Native activism is that, you know, the first really huge major event did not happen until one month before that decade was over. It was in November 1969, at Alcatraz. So, you know, I talked about it as us being late to the party in a way, you know. There was important activism before then and you can look at the nature, when you talk about Red Power. That was characterized by college students, native college students, who had a completely different kind of aesthetic to their, to their movement. There were people who read the New Republic, they were people who unselfconsciously called themselves intellectuals (this is like: 1964, 1965, 1966) and that was also the look of, you know, the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley, for example, you know. So those things were quite similar. In terms of people about the American Indian Movement, you know, that is an organization that was formed in 1968. But it is real impact came, you know, not really until the early (19)70s. So, you know, it is interesting to talk about the (19)60s in activism in terms of Native people and see that, you know, most of it was happening after, you know, a very powerful anti-war movement. You know, it was already established. And obviously, there were activists who were part of the anti-war movement. Some of the leaders, early leaders of the American Indian Movement, talked about being influenced by the Black Panther Party. Looking at some of the tactics they use to challenge you know, police practices in major cities. You know, people were partly you know, watching television and reading some of the same books. Yeah. 03:37 SM: Yeah, yeah, a lot of the upstate, two individuals in particular, Newt Gingrich when he came to power in 1994, and then George Will, throughout his career as a writer, always take shots. They love taking shots at the (19)60s generation, and all the activism that was taking place. And oftentimes they say that a lot of the reasons why we have the breakdown in American society today, with the unbelievable divorce rate, with the drug culture, lack of; no sense of responsibility, disliking people in positions of authority, it all goes back to that era. And basically the student activists. And those 15 percent of seventy-eight million that were involved, whether it be the anti-war movement, the women's movement, Native American movement, Chicano, the environmental, all those individuals gay and lesbian, all the ones that were in the movements. They like to blame them. Of course, generalizations are not good but when you hear that, when you see someone writing about that, even when you think of AIM, it is really attacking AIM too. What are your thoughts? As people reflected on those times today? They like, everybody likes to place blame on things. 07:30 PS: Yeah. I think there was a great deal of ̶ there was ̶ There was a lot going on. So I think, you know, there was at times, a sense of self-congratulation and hype about, you know, the (19)60s, about activism about the counterculture and for me, I think one of the important things to look at the Indian Movement was to take kind of a more dispassionate examination of that. To really try to see what, what the consequences actually were. And, you know, something like AIM or the Panthers or the anti-war movement become so polarized. You know, it is very hard to actually have the kind of conversation, you know that I think we need. So, so the American Indian Movement was for a couple of years by far the most influential and popular quasi-organization and there are implications of it, you know, thirty years later. So, I have been interested as somebody that was part of it towards the end of it is, you know, successful years to take you know, to take a hard look at all of that. The consequences of it. One of the reasons that Robert Warrior and I wrote our book "Like a Hurricane", was that we would meet people like, he was teaching at Stanford, I think then and he would meet Indian students whose parents had actually been activists in AIM and all they really knew about AIM was, you know, a movie like Thunder Heart, you know, with Val Kilmer or just a lot of representations that, you know, not even an issue what they are being correct or not, but just obviously very superficial and coming from a different place. So it is a lot about trying to look at that history more seriously, and engage it. So you know, we saying clearly that we are just, you know, extraordinary heroism and bravery and intelligence, and fantastically stupid decisions, a culture of thuggishness, you know, certainly took hold. And I think all those things have to be looked at, you know. I do not know I mean to talk about like, blaming these movements, you know, for things that are going on today. I do not know what that is really what interest that really serves. But I think taking those movements really seriously looking at all the sacrifices that people made, looking at what actually was accomplished. You know, that is sort of what, you know, I was trying to do with that project. 09:27 SM: You okay? When you say 'thuggishness' was that? Would that be what happened to the Students for Democratic Society when they became violent? When the Black Panthers, although they were Bob (Seale) and (Pete) O'Neal's program, there is a lot of people that consider them a violent group and they took guns. Is that what you are saying about the Native American movement? AIM, in the beginning, and then it changed toward the end? It became even much more militant? 10:43 PS: Yeah, I guess it is similar in some ways, you know. AIM as opposed to SDS, you know, never was a real organization. Anybody could join at any time. There were like five different national leaders, you know, a national chairman, a president, an executive director, things like that. So, so you could not have any real accountability in that situation but there was certainly, you know, an element that really believed in armed struggle, you know, that really believed in, you know, the kind of, the kind of, I guess without the discipline of the Weathermen or something but certainly, you know, there were elements of AIM that really relate to guns, you know. 11:23 SM: Your upbringing. Where were you born? And at what moment? Were your parents, the ones really, obviously young people are finding their friends. But then there comes a point as a young person, you are starting to identify with one's culture. Who was the most influential person in your life in say, those first ten to fifteen years? Who influenced you the most? And you became sensitized to issues of Native Americans. 11:50 PS: Me and my two sisters, we were all born in West Texas, although we have virtually no memory of it because my family moved to Upstate New York briefly, so my dad could get a doctorate at Cornell. But we, both my parents are from Oklahoma. My dad, a white guy who actually is now an enrolled Choctaw. My mom Comanche. So I know we were very connected with Oklahoma. They sort of hated Oklahoma, which is why they wanted to leave, but then we always went back. So this was, you know, growing up in the 1960s. It was because we mostly me and my sisters who mostly lived in Washington, DC, but we were pretty connected with Oklahoma. So when I was growing up, my grandfather, my mom's Dad, you know, he still was minister of the Comanche Reformed Church, and they still did certain church services in ̶ and Comanche so it is not like I was disconnected from that. I was not around it all the time. But it was before the sort of cultural renewal, you know, really took off in the later (19)60s. So it was not, there is something very Oklahoma about it and that you know, this church that had been around since the turn of the century. And, you know, you see all these pictures, you see all this history of it. But it is not like my mother's side of the family talked about the old days in any particular narrative of either struggle or resistance or anything, you know, my mom, so my mom's brothers were in the military in World War II. They could not, none of none of my mom or siblings could go to like powwows or anything like that. And, you know, it is was like a lot of the US and the world was at that time, you know, the middle of the 20th century, which was not about us hanging on to our language, no matter what, let us keep our ceremonies, you know, let us do all that. And so now we pretend that we always were like that, but that is just not really true. Certainly not a place like Oklahoma. So, I would say for me and my sisters, you know, coming of age in the late (19)60s you are influenced by all kinds of things. And we certainly were. So all of us were, you know, all of us connected with, you know, seeing world in different ways. For me, it was politics for my younger sister it was going to Institute of American Indian Arts, Santa Fe. My sister also worked at Indian organizations for some graduate studies. So we were part of that. I think that is where a lot of people learn, like that. 14:23 SM: [Inaudible for a minute] Testing one, two. That is better. 15:13 PS: It seems better to me. What is wrong with it? Sounds fine. 15:15 SM: I do not know why I did that. 15:17 PS: Oh okay. 15:17 SM: It is a different tape. I am going to hold it here and I will double check a hook or something. Okay, we are talking about Alcatraz. 15:27 PS: Right, Alcatraz. 15:28 SM: Why? What was its purpose and what were its goals? And how important was it with respect to the American Indian Movement? 15:39 PS: Well, Alcatraz came about because the United States closed its maximum security prison on the island. So it became a question of what would happen, you know, to this amazing piece of real estate with all those gorgeous views of San Francisco Bay. And so there were various ideas of luxury housing and some kind of a resort and all these things that were not very practical because Alcatraz was, you know, the most secure prison in the country for a really good reason which is very difficult to get there. So the idea of having condominiums there and a shopping center and all that was not very realistic. And so the urban Indian community in the Bay Area, thought you know, well actually, we should get Alcatraz. So there were California Indian folks that had been pursuing various you know, actions towards redress for many years. The Urban Indian Center in San Francisco that had suffered a disastrous fire so they needed a place, and you know, everybody's talking about Alcatraz in the Bay Area. So all of that turned into a ̶ you know, a few dozen college students organizing a takeover on the island. This was in November 1969. So landing on, you know, getting those from Sausalito to be on Alcatraz overnight, you know, was an adventure but not incredibly hard to do. What really changed the event was the fact that it was because it was federal property it became a first a General Services Administration issue and then it went to the White House on how to handle these protesters. And Richard Nixon at that point, the new president, you know, was sort of shopping for a model minority, a minority group where he could, you know, build a good record. So, he had these high level advisors, one of them was Leonard Garment that saw an opportunity to, you know, be in dialogue with these protesters to explore possibilities for the administration to show their good faith for this minority group. So it all could have ended in a day or two. But the decision by the Nixon White House to actually negotiate with the occupiers, turned it into a very different thing and elevated the event to a whole other level. So it actually lasted for a year and a half, the occupation. And so it got, it never got the kind of attention people want to remember it as getting. It was, you know, it was in the national news maybe once or twice. It was a big story in the Bay Area for quite a while. It was, you know, like a lot of like a lot of the activism that Robert Warrior and I talked about in your book, it was sort of heroic and smart, and also badly planned. For there is a period of months in which people talked about it as a Lord of the Flies situation. You know, it is sort of the downside of having this wonderfully open movement that anybody can join. It means you get, you know, criminals and drug dealers and thugs being part of it. And very idealistic people. So it was that kind of a mixed bag. But I guess what was so startling about it was the idea that Indians would do something like that. Would occupy, would break the law and occupy federal territory. I think for a lot of Native people had internalized this idea that we would never do something like that. And so it was kind of amazing to a lot of Indian people. Apart from the particular demands, or who the groups were; the individuals, it was just wow, Indians did that. That's pretty amazing. 19:48 SM: Was it mostly boomers was mostly young, Native Americans? I know. I am just reading a couple of the names. The one young man ended up dying that was the leader, the guy that swam in or? 20:06 PS: Yeah, sort of the leader of the group was Richard Oakes. His daughter died during the occupation in an accident. He was, and Oakes himself was killed seven years later, in a separate, in a separate event. 20:22 SM: Did the federal government really make a rough on the AIM leaders? Yeah, because the federal government and Richard Nixon was spying on anybody and that was an activist at the time. Did you feel the pressure within AIM that the government was watching you and every move that you were making? 20:40 PS: Yeah, by the early (19)70s. Clearly. Especially after Wounded Knee, it was sort of no secret that, you know, the FBI considered, you know, AIM a very dangerous organization. I mean, they would say so in public press conferences and you know, the COINTELPRO tactics that were used on other movements were certainly use against a AIM in the (19)70s. Without a doubt. 21:09 SM: That was pretty intimidating. Did that, did those activities and what they said about the leaders carry on beyond the (19)60s? In other words, they made life miserable for them ongoing? Because of their involvement? 21:24 PS: I mean, I think the period in which, you know, the US government really focused on AIM was certainly through most of the (19)70s. For sure, yeah. 21:35 SM: In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? 21:38 PS: I would say, it began 11/22/(19)63. And I would say it ended in 1975. 22:14 SM: Is that because we ended our involvement in Vietnam, is that the - 22:21 PS: I would say that, and other things. Yeah, I guess I mean, it is always really artificial. But yeah. 22:38 SM: Is there one event that you feel had the greatest impact on Native American boomers in their lifetime? Particularly when they were young? 22:46 PS: I do not know what that would be? I cannot think of one. 23:06 SM: Can you think of one? What was the one event that shaped you more than any other? 23:10 PS: I would say, less at the exact time but I think the Wounded Knee occupation in (19)73 just because out of that, I ended up a year later, going out to South Dakota. But I did not know much about it at the time. And so it is sort of more in retrospect. But that certainly was a major event for me and you know, a lot of other people. But I think those are people who are more inclined to activism in the first place. You know? 23:43 SM: Why was Wounded Knee the event? How did that? You had Alcatraz. You had the incident in Washington with the Bureau of Indian Affairs. You had them obviously many other activities and events. But that one. What made that stand out? 24:07 PS: Well, you know, just as Alcatraz was startling because you had Indians willing to actually, you know, break the law destroy government property. This was Indians actually taking over a town, you know, and occupying it and holding off, you know, Federal Marshals. So again, that was like an electrifying idea that that could be happening. The idea that you would, you know, take such measures to call attention to what conditions were like on Pine Ridge Reservation which were desperate. You know, all that was, it was like: Indians are really doing this? This is amazing. 24:53 SM: Is there? When you look at not only Native American boomers but boomers as a whole. I mean, you cannot generalize again. But where there are certain characteristics that were positive or certain characteristics that were negative toward this generation? Particularly emphasizing the 15 percent that were activists; which is pretty cool, almost eighteen million people, when you think of the numbers. What were the strengths and weaknesses in your eyes? 25:26 PS: One of the things that was interesting about the Indian Movement that I knew as somebody who came out in (19)74 to South Dakota, so this was a year after the Wounded Knee occupation. Years after Alcatraz. And, you know, really appeared in which that was the year that Nixon resigned. That was the year that, you know, the Vietnam war, at far as US involvement was winding down in terms of the number of Americans in combat, not necessarily in terms of deaths or anything. But you know, in a sense that was late. And the Indian Movement always had this amazing variety of people actively involved. Which was not really as true of a lot of other movements. So you had so many older people, and you had so many like children, you know, throughout all these age groups. Of course, there were examples of that in other movements, but even some of the key leadership of AIM, they were actually, you know, in the early (19)70s, they were in their mid-(19)30s. Some of them. So they were older. But, but some of the most influential people were actually in their ̶ you know, (19)60s or (19)70s; elders who were very influential. And you would see little kids everywhere. Babies everywhere. All that. So I think that was kind of striking. 26:57 SM: It is a lot different than some of the others. 26:59 PS: Yeah, it was. It was. 27:03 SM: I know Dr. King tried to get younger people into his civil rights but he was criticized heavily for doing that by fellow African Americans who felt like what are you putting young fifteen and sixteen year olds under that kind of pressure? Yeah, but he was trying to do it. And I know the women's movement had some of the babies by their sides and stuff. But I cannot think of too many other movements, seeing kids at. 27:25 PS: Yeah, yeah and I mean you look at photographs and moving images of some of the key events. You see that. How, how diverse in terms of age, the Indian movement was. 27:40 SM: The issues oftentimes when you look at Native American issues, in the (19)50s, (19)60s and beyond, some things are striking. You see all the broken treaties. Of course the treaties have been historically broken for a long time, way back to Ulysses Grant, you know, the breaking of treaties. People went to plead the case that treaties were being broken. We certainly had poverty and a lot of various issues of alcoholism. Do you find that it is when people write about Native Americans, that they, they seem to dwell on the negative sometimes as opposed to the positive? And that is what the AIM, the American Indian Movement, really in the end was about empowerment? Not letting others dictate to us, we can dictate to them. 28:30 PS: Hmm. Yeah, it was about empowerment. Definitely. Definitely. I think for me, the main flaw of the Indian Movement was, you know, an inability to articulate some kind of strategic vision on what we are actually going to try to win. So the movement was great at highlighting a specific incident, like when a guy named Raymond Yellow Thunder, you know, was killed at the Dakota/Nebraska border and basically nobody cared. You know, Indian organizations did not care, the government did not care, the tribal governments did not care. You know, it was great at mobilizing people on behalf of somebody like Raymond Yellow Thunder. But not that anything about the civil rights movement was easy, obviously none of it was. But an issue like voting rights, an issue like fair housing, you know, segregation. Those were issues that affected you know, most African Americans in the US in a huge way. And that you could, you know, actually have a solution, not a revolutionary solution, but you could actually do that. A lot of the issues that community cycle and the Pine Ridge Reservation face were you know, are incredibly complex and often not really similar to other reservations, let alone Indians who live in cities. So in other words for the Indian Movement to say you know something under the tiller, is a voting rights, is it fair housing? What were those demands? Sure. People could, you know, talk all about you know, you have broken our treaties. Okay you have broken our treaties. Now what. What exactly? Those were the things that were very difficult. Probably the moment that the Indian Movement came closest to that was the, the 1972 Trail of Broken Treaties caravan that came here to Washington in which, there was you know, they had some significant you know, tribal government folks, people like Vine Deloria Jr. all saying look, here are these twenty points that should be a starting point for real discussion to deal with these things. They were not just demands they we were saying let us have an engagement. So that was a moment that there was something you could actually talk about. At Wounded Knee, you know, when you declare yourself the Independent Oglala Nation, sovereign from the US, you are not really going to have much of a discussion, right? That is a pretty extreme position. The Trail of Broken Treaties, of course, blew up and practically resulted in the firebombing of the Bureau of Indian Affairs building on the eve of Nixon's reelection. So, you know, the smart work some people had done to develop this program was eclipsed by almost being this catastrophe. 31:38 SM: Do you feel Richard Nixon used the Native Americans particularly in the American Indian Movement, because from the very beginning, he wanted to work with them, and then it became very hard? Because Law and Order was such a big issue in America and he was going to stop the protests. Do you think? Do you feel that they were used? 32:01 PS: You know, I think that is kind of what Robert Warrior and I were hoping to find out. That our search of you know, archives and talking with, you know, government officials and, other folks. We did not really find evidence that this was of any real concern to Nixon himself much at all, then. You know, this was, there was a lot going on. There were these high level senior aides that did have this idea, this political project of saying, Nixon's really good on Indians and in fact, if you talk to virtually any Indian, people that look at this closely, they will say, and I am sure this will be startling to many of your readers that Nixon is the best president for Indians of the 20th century. 32:47 SM: Why? That would be! That is, that is a magic moment, really. 32:52 PS: Because of the Self-Determination Act in 1970 which basically said we are going to reverse this policy; or informally sort of reverse assimilation and termination. It granted, you know more rights to tribal governments and said we will engage tribal governments. And it also specifically returned certain lands to Native People. Like Blue Lake for the Taos Pueblo and all of that. So, in terms of a policy point of view, I mean, you could say that it just shows how terrible all of the other presidents have been, and certainly it does not change what the FBI did in terms of activism. But in terms of the big picture of policy, you know, you could get almost in any Indian and say who was a better president than Richard Nixon? And I think very few would come up with a name. 33:48 SM: I cannot live in your shoes. One thing to learn early on, I was involved in a lot of anti-war stuff, but you cannot be in someone's shoes. And the thing is, it is the fact that all the land in this country was Native American, basically. You know, and, and, of course, now the reservations, and of course, there is gambling and so forth. Some things have changed, that are positive. You mentioned that at the end of your book. But still, it is got to be pretty upsetting, isn't it still? To know that this really, all belonged to Native Americans and it was the white man that really – that is all the white man has really seemed to do. 34:35 PS: Yeah. It is kind of crummy. That is true. 34:42 SM: Yeah, it is um, you mentioned that the American Indian movement still has an influence today. What was, what was the lasting influence that, that activism, whether it be Red Power, or American Indian Movement has had the Native American community? As boomers you know, Native American boomers are now reaching sixty-two, they are like, all the other boomers. What is the lasting effect of that activism? 35:09 I think it is, I think it is ambivalent. I do not think there is; I do not think the Indian community in the US has made up its mind yet about it. I think their kind of popular cultural references are still pretty, are what a lot of people know. I have heard many people who are not part of this activism, and many folks in the US talk about how, this museum would not exist without a ̶ you know, that they feel for all the faults of a you know, a lot of what that activism really was about was invisibility. About nobody even knowing that we are here. About being completely ignored. About being in the past. So whatever else AIM did, it certainly said, look, we are still here. And it says something else: we are not who you think you are. We are not who you think we are. That you imagine that we are, you know, just completely peace-loving and would never, you know, take over a building or a town. And it was a shock to see that some Indians would do that. So, you know, it is interesting that many people who are not big fans of AIM, would say this building would not exist without that activism. 35:09 SM: Then this, this is kind of the lasting legacy then, really. 35:48 PS: Yeah, I mean, you know, in a way that museum is a little bit like Alcatraz, where it is this moment that comes up that all of a sudden there is this island. What happened with this building was that in the late (19)80s, the largest single intact collection of Native material, a museum called The Museum of the American Indian in New York, all of a sudden was kind of up for grabs. So the Smithsonian, the American Museum of Natural History and Ross Perot actually all tried to get hold of this. So, in other words, without that collection, whatever the mysterious way countries decide to take seriously like slavery in the US for example, which is ̶ in many ways, or look seriously at Indians. It would not have been enough without that collection being there. The Smithsonian was not going to open this building without material, right? So it forced that. So it is kind of an interesting confluence of things. But clearly people would say the activism that pushed this, even you know, when people took over Alcatraz, they talked about a museum being there. They talked about a school and job center and all that. But they talked about a museum. You know, at BIA, there was a museum in that building. A huge number of artifacts that were on display. And even at Pine Ridge, at Wounded Knee in the village of Wounded Knee, there was a little trading post, Wounded Knee museum. So there is this thread of museums to kind of go through this activism. So in that sense, I think there is a real connection with the existence of the ̶ and the American Indian, and the activism going back to the 1960s. 38:24 SM: I think one of the important things that you bring out in your book is that you really define those, the top activists. We all know about the two that most Americans know about is Dennis Banks and Russell Means and they are in the (19)60s history books. But the thing is what you bring up Clyde Warrior, Hank Adams, Richard Oakes, LaNada Means and certainly Dennis Banks and Russell Means. Why is it important that these names must be known by American students today when we talk about the (19)60s and the (19)70s and post-World War II America? Because I do not think I have to tell you that our students do not know a whole lot about history, period. How important were these people? And what? Where would the Native movement been without those six people? 39:21 PS: Well I was thinking about when you said most Americans know Russell Means and Dennis Banks I was wondering what Americans you are talking about. 39:24 SM: [laughs] 39:28 PS: Because I think actually, very few people, you know, really would know those names or know the American Indian Movement at all actually. I mean, that is, that is a huge thing everybody is looking at now, is, right? How much Americans know about their own history? Was the Korean War before after the Civil War? We want to know the answer, right? But for me to answer your question, I think it is about how in 1967 let us say, a lot of really smart folks looking at this situation probably would have predicted yeah, there is going to be an interesting Indian Movement, that is going to be much larger than it is now. And I think almost everybody would have said it is going to be led by students. Because look at the (19)60s, look at how students were at the forefront of the anti-war movement. Of much of the Civil Rights movement students were extremely important. And you had these people like the ones you are mentioning, Mel Tom and, you know, Hank Adams all these people who came out who and identified as students - 40:44 SM: LaNada Means. I mean! 40:46 PS: Yeah, that is right. 40:47 SM: I did not know much about her, but boy, people should know about her! If you were to even ask boomers when they went off to college: name Native Americans that you know, and that is my, you know, our generation. Obviously, they would know from the history books about Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse and some of the big name Native Americans. But the one that would probably come to the forefront would be Jay Silverheels because he was the sidekick of the Lone Ranger. It is just amazing! Jay Silverheels was the most well-known Native American in the (19)50s! 40:51 PS: Right, right. So you have all these people who, almost all of which were students and were student activists and wrote and all that. And yet, what emerged was AIM. Which was basically nothing like that. There were a few students there, but it was led by these older folks, you know, who were much tougher. Much different. Not in their twenties. And had a much rowdier kind of base of urban Indian folks and Reservation folks. You know, that was pretty prevalent. You came from a poor background, you are pretty privileged if you are going to school in California University system in 1967 or eight, you know, you are in a good situation, comparatively. So anyway, it was interesting to look at that to see how unpredictable history is. And how different this was, and I am sure if I had been there in (19)67, I would have predicted that students are going to be decisive but it was not students at all. It was people with criminal records or, you know, people who were, you know, Dennis Banks was somebody, an executive at Honeywell Corporation for a while. So it makes it fascinating when you realize how, in retrospect, it was predetermined but you know, if you put yourself back at that time, how unlikely it was that AIM would look like what it was. And how sad it is that the kind of intellectualism that a lot of the student movements had in the Indian world was kind of lost. People wrote long, thoughtful letters to each other and, you know, tried to keep abreast of, you know, things going on elsewhere in the world in a different way. By the time Mean came along, it was not that cool to be reading a book for a while, you know. So you always want to know these things to not have to give up one for the other, you know. Yeah, that is right. He was. He was very famous. 43:07 SM: Yeah. Then there was another one that was on the Walt Disney show had the advertisement with a tear coming down, he was in a lot of Disney movies. 43:13 PS: Right, right. 43:14 SM: That was that was the other one too. 43:15 PS: A commercial. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. It is funny, there were some Vietnam vets who were part of Wounded Knee, you know. On the AIM side. And they used their skills. You know, it was so different from now, it was a draft, right? So took a lot of effort or pull to not to get drafted. I think it is curious that there is a, there is a mythology, this is in my mind, a mythology has been built up about how special it is that we are, you know, that a traditional concept of warriors, you know, is used by even us to talk about us being in the US military. Because I do not think Indians in the US military were any different than anybody else. And I think the notion that there is almost an exemption, I think a lot of people that would like, not want a discussion about the horrible things white soldiers did in Vietnam, that you would not hold Indians to the same standards. How that would be different. It is interesting, we go to powwows and very common to have a special ceremony for veterans and of course I think veterans should be treated with respect, you know, they made a sacrifice for their country, but it is almost like a complete denial that while they were serving the United States in Iraq or in Vietnam and that somehow the idea that you are Indian makes it that does not really matter because you are really some kind of sovereign soldier or something like that. So I do not know that would be that is, that is a certain kind of invention, I think, in the US Indian world about that you can think how wonderful it is our soldiers went there and again, beyond disrespecting their service that they did this, although in some cases, they did not have a choice because they would go to prison if they did not, and do things all other soldiers are supposed to do. But it is so special and cool because they are Indian. I think it was, you know, difficult for everybody who was in a place like Vietnam. But I think somehow we have been kind of, you know, something was being created about Indians in that war in particular, you know, that I think is suspect to me. 43:16 SM: I have got to. This is coming out fine this time, let us hope. The question I have is about Vietnam veterans. Now, I have just gotten a hold of Mr. Holm. I do not know, Tom Holm who has written books on Native Americans from the west coast. He is in Arizona. And he has got a book that was written on Native Americans who served in the Vietnam War. There were a lot of Native Americans who served our country in that war. And a lot of them came back and we have had a couple on our campus over the years talking about the experiences of coming back to America. Your thoughts on the Vietnam veteran, Native American Vietnam veterans, who served their country and what they came home to. I have some things that I will share with you, but I want your, basically your feelings, on those. That is because there is a lot of them on the wall. A lot of Native Americans on the Vietnam Memorial. I know that when they dedicated the property over there, where they are going to build the underground center. A very well-known Native American Vietnam vet was there. He heads the organization. And he was very close to Jan Scruggs, and everything. I do not remember his name. But I know Paul Critchlow from Merrill Lynch in New York was the only white man that was ever allowed into the organization because they fought side by side in Vietnam. And finally, they allowed this one white man to be a warrior. One of the perceptions that you read about amongst Native Americans - How are we doing time wise? Because 4:30 is when we are done. 47:23 PS: Yeah. 47:25 SM: I got to go to another, this thing better be working. I will bring a second one the next time we are going to be dropping them. The Vietnam Memorial, Native Americans, oh, the perception when you read in the books on Vietnam, is that many Native American Vietnam vets or soldiers were put on the front. They were the ones that were at the very front because they felt they were supposed ̶ a stereotypical attitude that says they can 'track'. So they will put them on point. 48:02 PS: Right, right, right. 48:03 SM: And a lot of them died. 48:04 PS: Yeah, yeah. Because they were not magical so a lot of them died. 48:07 SM: You have heard that before then? 48:09 PS: I never heard of it in a way that necessarily trust it. I mean, I will give you another example the idea that Mohawks have special ability about heights because they worked high steel, right? Famously, many of them worked high steel. I met some of them, you know? They said, you know, help put up this bridge or you know, this building. But, you know, they were, they were highly paid industrial workers who were happy to come to New York and do this and, and they did not have any particular ability about heights. They did not have any special skill about heights, they were like people who needed work, we are glad to do it. Maybe they let people think that. Or maybe some of them believe it themselves. But it gets really kind of silly to think that they were you know geniuses on high steel, or that, you know, because you have Native ancestry you knew how to track in a jungle in Indochina. That is a little - 49:12 SM: Vietnam veterans, no matter what background they came from, we were not treated very nice when they came home to America. 49:18 PS: No. 49:19 SM: All of them were not even welcome at the Veterans of Foreign Wars. If you were a Vietnam vet, no matter what your background, we do not want you. Now they are 80 percent of the organization. But at that particular time, they were not welcome, because there were all these perceptions out there: they were baby killers and all the other thing is My Lai. Things like that. And that was so far from the truth. But in the Native American Vietnam vets that, you know, I know you cannot generalize, but how are they treated upon their return? Not only by Americans as a whole, but by Native Americans? Their peers. Were they held in higher respect because they had served their country? Or did some of the older Native Americans, or some of their peers did not show respect for them because they went to war? 50:07 PS: It is hard to say. I mean, I could think of a few examples, but they seem so singular. I would not know how to characterize, that. I am sure a lot of the same attitudes everyone else had were the same. I think for a lot of in the twentieth century, a lot of Indians joined the military. You know, for the same reason other people who, you know, are economically disadvantaged do. As I said earlier. You know, my mom's family, all of her brothers were in World War II. So there is a tradition of that. So, it might be a little different than other communities where people felt they had more choice or born automatically, you know, expected to be in the military. 50:59 SM: These are general questions right now. One of the general questions is all the other movements that were taking place at that time, the anti-war, the Native American, which we already talked about the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, certainly in the environmental movement, and the civil rights movement. Were Native Americans, were they connected to those movements? Did they did they attend the rallies for those movements? And the second part of my question, because one of the things that comes up, that is why I believe this name "Means", the female, is very important, because there is a lot of sexism within the within all the all the movements. In civil rights and anti-war it was rampant. Was there sexism within the Native American movement where women were second class citizens, so to speak? Or, there were not very many in leadership roles? 51:58 PS: One of the informal logos that was very common for AIM was actually a version of the Playboy logo. So that spoke to a certain sexism within AIM. That was absolutely true. One of the things that is a little bit different is that there were very strong women leaders in AIM, but they were overwhelmingly related to some of the well-known leaders, some of the guys. You know, more sexist than SNCC? I do not, I cannot really assess that. But I would say the nature of it was that you probably had a lot more women in key activist positions than maybe in some of the other groups. But I think a lot of the sexism that we see in other organizations was, was similar to what happened and what was true in AIM. 53:02 SM: And were more most of them were women leaders mostly older as opposed to boomer age, which were younger? Like the young man who was kind of the leader of Alcatraz? He was like twenty-two years old. Were there any women that were twenty-two that were like him? 53:19 PS: In the Dakotas there were a number of women activists that I worked with that were in their twenties, mid-twenties, even thirty that were very key activists in the movement, yeah. 53:32 SM: This is a question that I have asked everyone. There is two basic questions that I have tried to get at. One of them is the concept of healing. Whether we are still a nation that has a problem with healing, particularly within the boomer generation, as now they are heading into Social Security age that they are going live another twenty years, boomers are not going to die easy. But your thoughts on whether we as a nation have a problem with healing from all the divisions that took place in America, at that time. Not only the division between black and white, male and female, could be a Native American or white, a white man it could be for the troops, against the troops. All those issues. Because we went through the riots, we went through all these issues through and (19)68 and all those things that happened. And the reason I am asking you is, I took a group of students’ right here at DC about nine years ago to meet Edmund Muskie, the former senator before he died from Maine who actually ran for vice president. We asked him that question, because the students wanted to know they saw (19)68 and they said, man, we close to a civil war that year? And because they were not born then. He responded by saying we have not healed since the Civil War, let alone (19)68. So he would not even talk about (19)68. Your thoughts on whether we as an; whether the boomer generation, which includes Native Americans, all boomers all seventy-eight million of them are going to head to their graves with issues or problems with healing. Of course some people do not even think about this but some might. Particularly the 15 percent of the activists who tried to make a difference in this world. Do you think we have a problem with healing? Is there a problem of healing in the Native American community? 55:27 PS: I do not know. It feels like part of the human condition maybe. I do not know. It feels, um, I do not know that this country or this generation is great at it but I do not know who is. 55:46 SM: The people that were involved in that very important movement from (19)69 to (19)73 as they have gotten older, not only the people who were old, the pre-boomers, but people like yourself and boomers after (19)46 they know that they are going to pass someday. And it is only going to be the history of that particular period. Do they worry that? Do they still have some problems with the groups of the people they were having problems with back then? 56:20 PS: I know there are a lot of people on Pine Ridge, where Wounded Knee took place (19)73, you know where it is, like ten thousand people then, I guess, but it is basically small enough that everybody knows everybody. And some of them leave but most of them do not. So that is a case where, I do not know there have been real efforts of reconciliation between people who were, you know, really mortal enemies. People really killed each other, you know, after Wounded Knee for a while. And you know, people in that context really tried to come terms with things. I cannot really speak to that in terms of, you know, I was never in a situation where I was in a place like that where you are, you know, community based and dealing with that over time. 57:19 SM: Do you think people would even come here to this facility? Some, especially Native Americans, who from all over the country might finally get that chance to come here to Washington see this facility that not only does it bring pride to their culture, but it is also a little bit of healing too? From maybe some of the frustrations and may have seen in the past? 57:44 PS: A lot of native visitors feel different things here. I do not know. I guess maybe some people would talk about it as beginning the process of healing of reconciliation. You know, the biggest moment for this museum was when it opened in September 2004. Something like twenty thousand people - 58:12 SM: Saw it on TV. 58:12 PS: Yeah, that was this huge moment. And, you know, it felt great, you know. What happens the next day? How does, you know, the museum actually work beyond being a symbol beyond being just affirmation and pride. You know, that is a more difficult question I think. 58:33 SM: And Bill Clinton was late too, was not he? Very late. He got criticized for that, because the White House is not very far from here. I heard he was late for everything, from people that work for him. A couple of other things too. The issue of trust. One of the issues that I felt that I personally felt and I have asked everyone is whether the boomer generation and again, all boomers have a problem with trust because they saw so many leaders lie to them. Certainly you already told me some of the things that Nixon did to the Native American community, but obviously Watergate and Gulf of Tonkin, the Vietnam War. There is questions about what was going on Vietnam with even President Kennedy. If you were an observant Boomer, you knew even Eisenhower lied to you, the U2 incident and then you go on into Reagan with Iran Contra, so the boomers have throughout their lives have seen leaders who have disappointed them or lied to them. But secondly, people who major in political science know that when you have, when you do not trust your government that is healthy, because that shows that dissent is alive and well and supported. Your thoughts whether you feel the Native American boomers have a problem with trust. With Native Americans have not been able to trust too many people throughout their lives, have they? Because of lies taking away land and then as time passes, probably more than any other group along with African Americans, the lies have been outrageous. 60:13 PS: Well, then you have an overlay of dysfunctional tribal governments that are corrupt and inefficient and also liars, so, you know, it is, I do not know, the skepticism. It is, it is certainly deserved, but it is not, it does not just work on, like the US government, you know. Its again, a lot of very seemingly intractable issues that are very, very difficult. So, you know, it mostly means we are not thrilled with our tribal governments, you know so it is very difficult. 60:51 SM: What is the number one issue right now? And what are the biggest issues today facing Native Americans that still have to be resolved in your in your view? And certainly now that the World War II generation is passing on, and now boomers are getting into old age, we got Generation X'ers now who are in their forties. So we got, you know? What are the issues that Native Americans are still unhappy with or still have to be resolved? In your opinion. 61:27 PS: Well, we are still among the poorest people in the United States, so that is still true. There is this looming demographic change that is coming up, where, you know, when I was growing up being half Indian was sort of just been barely Indian. Now, you know, I mean, all these - 61:56 SM: It was the batteries, they were dead. These do not last long, I tell you. 62:01 PS: Well that is good to know - 62:03 SM: Well what happened here was one question I lost, but I do not know. 62:06 PS: Yeah, but you know, this idea of like quantitative percentages and all that that, you know, really only we talk about in this way, it is very bad. You know, that is changing a lot so, most if you go to any big Indian family reunion, you know, it looks like the United Nations, you know, it is people from all over the world often, you know. So that is a very different thing than the (19)50s or (19)60s where if you were a quarter Indian, you did not even really count in many ways. So, so that is something people are looking at now. Definitely change is coming. 62:49 SM: What is the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? 62:51 PS: I am not someone that was you know, I was affected by Vietnam at a distance, obviously, because I was not somebody who was immediately at risk. I guess I would say I think about it in terms of, you know, as a sort of a museum professional about seeing it as a very effective monument in Washington. Look closely at how it was created and that has nothing to do with the emotional impact a lot of people would have, I do not feel like it is something I, you know, would own or be a part of. But what I what I think about though, is that when Maya Lin was brilliant at though was understanding, you know, she understood what people wanted versus what they said they wanted. So, if you ask, this is what our museum does, is ask people to like, design the exhibits you know. So ask, most Vietnam veterans, gee here is our idea. It is a wall of granite with names on it. How do you how do you like that? Most of them would have said, it is probably a terrible idea, and there was a lot of hostility at it when it was released. And yet the emotional power of it, you know, was incredible and that showed that she had an insight into the human condition and the human heart, you know that triumphed versus what people wanted to see they wanted to see figurative displays. So that is how most people do not know how to think about monuments or art so I think it is an incredibly successful thing, but I am not ̶ I was not in Vietnam, I did not lose people in Vietnam. So I obviously 64:45 SM: Do you know many vets? Do you know the influence this had on many vets on Native American vets? 64:49 PS: Not really I mean, I knew vets that were either, who were part of AIM. No, it is not really something I know about or could speak about. 65:00 SM: I am just asking here now, just your immediate responses to some of the terms and people of the era and that is what the Vietnam Memorial is. And what does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? 65:10 PS: I remember when they happened. It was a big deal. I was in high school, I remember when it happened. 65:17 SM: What was your thoughts on it, when you heard that four college students are killed on a college campus and then two were killed a week and a half later? 65:27 PS: Yeah, I was, you know, I mean, I was living in Washington. So um, you know, it was, campuses, you know, in turmoil, and it was it was a very traumatic time. 65:42 SM: The fortieth anniversary is coming up this year, I cannot believe it. What is Watergate mean to you? 65:50 PS: Watergate was fun. It was interesting. It was like this long form novel of you know, a lot of things happening at a time. You know, very antiquated, right? Because you would have to, like, get the Washington Post each morning, you know. A very old fashioned kind of thing. It was great. 66:11 SM: And when I say this, not only you but whether you felt any of these had an effect on the Native American community too. Hippies and Yippies, what do you think of them? 66:22 PS: I have noticed that Indians have always been terrible at choosing allies. So early on, we decided hippies were good allies for us. And then we are stupid allies for us. You know, and we encouraged that a lot. So I do not know who I would have chosen instead. But I think you know, the idea to feel like there is this natural affinity was not helpful to our situation, in my opinion. 66:56 SM: How about the Black Panther Party? When I say this, I am talking about seven or eight different personalities here, Eldridge Cleaver, to Kathleen Cleaver to Bobby Seale and Huey Newton and Dave Hillier, Norene Brown, Stokely Carmichael. H. Rap Brown the entire gamut. What did you think of them? 67:21 PS: I was a SNCC guy. I liked SNCC. I did not like the Panthers that much. I especially did not like the California Panthers. But you know, you talking about somebody who at the time is fifteen years old, right? It is not like I was palling around with them. In one of my essays I wrote, I experienced the (19)60s, one of the best ways possible through television. Maybe the most authentic way possible. So you know, I am the kid who is reading books and making judgments, you know. 67:48 SM: What is your history lesson? What do you think they were good for, or bad or what? Overall? Because they challenge the civil rights movement, and they were they were the ones that challenged Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and James Farmer and Roy Wilkins and said, you know, you guys are times past. This is Black Power now, it is not about non-violent protests. 67:50 PS: I did not think they were very bright. 68:20 SM: How about the students for democratic society too and that was another group that was the anti-war group that became the Weathermen. 68:28 PS: Yeah. You know, it is a group that always had a lot of cache. I cannot really remember. I guess I did meet people. And sort of there was sort of solidarity work done with Indians and I think I met some people who have been SDS but not like, you know, necessarily at Berkeley or anything. So you know, it was, it was a group that, you know, again, me is a pretentious teenage intellectual. So I am reading about SDS and we can learn about it and all that. But it felt pretty remote to my experiences. 69:11 SM: You mentioned TV, you learn through TV. You learned about a lot of these persons in black power through TV. What? What were the things that you saw on TV that influenced you? The media was very important. It was the first; TV brought the Vietnam War home to America. I mean, they saw it every night on the news. In the Native American community, obviously TV was very important, I am correct? Particularly if you live in like North Dakota or South Dakota or? 69:52 PS: I do not know, I did not live there. I lived in suburban Washington so I do not know what that experience was like. I mean, you know, I heard Stokely Carmichael speak at the University of Maryland. You know, I read the Washington Post, I mean, I got information from a lot of places. So I would never like, it was always filtered through certain skepticism about what was what was going on, about the Panthers or whatever. 70:22 SM: I was going to ̶ why do you think the Vietnam War ended? What do you think was the main reason when the combat that it did end? 70:34 PS: And that question saying the war ended when? 70:36 SM: The war in the 1975 but, the reason why it ended? 70:44 PS: Yeah, well, I guess like most people, I would say it would have ended sooner. That the last several years, we are really about saving things for the United States, which is you know, any realistic idea that the US could win that war. 71:10 SM: Even though you are fifteen and you saw it on TV, how important you think students are an ending that war? Because there were obviously Native American students at Berkeley and other schools that were protesting. 71:21 PS: Yeah, it changes everything when you have a draft, you know, it like, you know, it is completely different than what you are looking at now. 71:33 SM: One of the big issues within that time frame was that it was the draft. That was why the protests were happening and certainly a lot of African American, Latino American and Native Americans were not able to have the influence that good old white Americans had getting out of the war. 71:50 PS: Yeah. 71:50 SM: Through deferments, well going to college for one thing. You got out until you finished school and then they would go after you. 71:58 PS: Yeah. 71:58 SM: But they did not have access to that. 72:01 PS: Right. 72:02 SM: So that is another very, did you hear that talked about it all in the Native American community? That many were forced to go in the military? 72:15 PS: Only rhetorically, I mean, not, you know, not really beyond that. You know it is obviously true that people had more access, you know? 72:26 SM: Some went in too because they thought it was going to be a career. 72:29 PS: Yeah. 72:30 SM: It was a career direction that they were taking. 72:32 PS: Yeah. 72:33 SM: Now I have got a quote here, but I know that I had all these names, but you were fifteen so I am not sure if you want to respond to these names or not. But just quick, just quick thoughts on these people real fast. How are we doing time wise? 72:51 PS: Five more minutes. 72:51 SM: Five more minutes, okay. What did you think of Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden? 72:55 PS: I lived the Bay Area in the late (19)70s. So they were actually, let me see, I think Jane Fonda, I saw her speak once. Tom Hayden ran for the Senate that might have been (19)78 or something? I do not know. Hollywood celebrities sort of, I do not know, they were not. I mean, I never I never. From an activist point of view, you are trying to get them on your side. But it was never really clear to me what that did for us. So I do not know. 73:34 SM: When you look at the President's for the boomers, which goes from Truman to Eisenhower to Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II and now Obama, of all those presidents, I know you cannot speak for all Native Americans, but were any did any of them stand out as popular within the Native American community and why? 74:09 PS: It was surprising how many Indian people supported Obama. Because Indians in the US did not know Obama and he did not know Indians. And McCain had been on the senate Indian Affairs Committee for many, many years. But as it turned out, Indians overwhelmingly supported Barack Obama for President. So that was interesting. As I said earlier, from a policy perspective, most people would say, overwhelmingly, Nixon was the best president for Indians. So, yeah. 74:40 SM: Some of the other names I will not go through all these presidents but the leaders of the women's movement and certainly the politicians Eugene McCarthy and Bobby Kennedy and Hubert Humphrey and Lyndon that whole ̶ (19)60s, politicians of the (19)60s, did Native Americans, like any of them? 75:06 PS: I think a lot of people liked Bobby Kennedy. Was what it seemed like. 75:14 SM: And of course, he was assassinated. Of course, Dr. King and Malcolm X were also very important, different styles, different ways, Muhammad Ali with the refusal to go in the draft. 75:27 PS: Yeah, yeah. 75:29 SM: Were there any heroes within the Native American community outside of the Native Americans? Who were not Native American? Did they have heroes? Do you have heroes? 75:43 PS: Joe Strummer, probably would be a hero. 75:45 SM: Who? 75:45 PS: Joe Strummer of the Clash. 75:49 SM: Okay. 75:49 PS: I am not a (19)60s guy. I do not know. I do not know. It is see, you know sort of as a cultural critic, you sort of are about tearing down heroes not building them up. So I do not know. I guess I do not have a lot of them. 76:15 SM: And notice that today's students, their heroes are their parents, or their uncle or their aunt, and you do not, see too many political figures, maybe some athletes. 76:24 PS: What is up with kids today with their best friends are their parents? I did not get that. It is what I keep reading about. 76:28 SM: That is the millennials what is amazing is 85 percent of the students today are from Generation X parents. Yeah. Fifteen are boomers. The boomers that have kids late. 76:39 PS: But how can your best friends be your parents? I do not get it. 76:39 SM: But what do you what do you think will be the lasting legacy of the boomer generation with that includes Native Americans, what do you think will be one of the best history books ever written? 76:54 PS: I think it is, uh, you know, people had an incredible ride, you know. An incredible moment in history to be able to have amazing educations of amazing economic situations. The last great generation of the American Century maybe? That stuff is never coming back; you know? I just think, very fortunate. Like my parents too, earlier generation, but you know, just people born in the Depression. If you worked hard, you could end up upper middle class that is what my parents did. They both were from modest families, you know my mom was a preacher's daughter and my dad was even poorer, even though he was white. And just by being smart and working hard, they ended up upper middle class, and I think that is a very different situation now. I mean, I respect that they work hard and everything but everything was there for them. You know, at that time, that kind of education, you could get the kind of jobs that were there, you know, the economy steadily, you know, becoming stronger. 78:11 SM: Overall. And since you are kind of a middle boomer, not an early boomer, are you pleased overall with the way boomers have lived their lives? Have they been a good influence on their kids and their grandkids? In terms of activism, fighting for justice. I know we cannot generalize here but the boomers, that you know, are they kind of living some of the ideals they had when they were young? Or did they cop out and go off and make a lot of money and raise kids and just simply say, well, I was young then and I had a lot of time. Your thoughts on boomers over time, from the time that when you were young, looking up to them and then now, forty, fifty years later. 79:03 PS: I used to know what to do with that question. [laughs] I do not know. I do not know. I do not know. 79:11 SM: You do not know whether you are happy or sad. 79:13 PS: I do not. I do not know how to conceptualize who these people are to be making judgments about. I do not know. I do not know. I mean, the term for me is always in quotes you know. So it is hard to - 79:25 SM: And we had to define as it is that 15 percent who were activists. 79:29 PS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 79:29 SM: Because I say the eighty-five that were not they were subconsciously effective too. 79:34 PS: Yeah, yeah. 79:35 SM: But we are still talking almost twenty million people here. 79:37 PS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 79:39 SM: So you do not have any sense of whether they have they been able to share and pass this on to their kids? How about in the Native American community? Have they, they passed this on to their kids? What it was like in the (19)60s in the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s and in the AIM movement? What have the AIM leaders done in terms of sharing? 80:03 PS: I think it is I do not think anybody has done very well. I think history is difficult. I think a lot of it is very complex and hard to synthesize and talk about. And I will say one thing though, I will say I gave a talk at California State University, Bakersfield last year. They had a lot of their class, had come to class, read my book of essays and the guy said he had read a whole bunch of books to get them mine because college freshmen are so hostile, are so hostile is the right word, are so uninterested in books that talk about diversity, or, you know, minority groups or you know, try to explain all this. That this is a group that is had Martin Luther King Day shoved down their throats every day since they are in kindergarten. And so I think now that you know, some form of, you know, diversity and multiculturalism, estate policy, especially, you know, nationally, especially in a place in California, kids hate it! Kids hate it! Because it is fake. Because it is a teacher telling you, you know, you ask kids about Martin Luther King is and they will say, he is a guy who died, you know. So it is like, finding a way, it is not just the intent. Of course the idea of Martin Luther King Day was a wonderful idea, I am not saying you should not have done it. But I am saying the distance between having intelligent dialogue about it or having people look at it closely, is very difficult to do. So, with the news the same thing we are trying to think about, you know, what was AIM in a sentence. I cannot explain that, you know. So, but I was interested in the fact that so many kids are basically out of there when you try to talk to them about, you know, Indian this or that or ̶ this or that nobody wants to hear about it because they have heard about it their whole life. I was in a position where you had to be oppositional to find out that stuff. It was not encouraged in school. So now we have a case where it is encouraged in schools. And I do not know if that is a good thing or not. 82:23 SM: Do you feel that? And again, I will often wonder what universities learned from the (19)60s and the (19)70s that they can apply today with young students and maybe start protesting against the Iraq and Afghanistan war, or other issues. Of course, there is no draft but as a guy who has been in higher ed(ucation) for thirty years, I do not think they have learned anything. 82:46 PS: Yeah. 82:46 SM: And, and, and I would like your observation, I only have the next last question. Your observation, our universities today and I mean, every university whether it be Ivy League, State University or community college, technical school I do not care what it is. Are they afraid of activist students? Are they afraid of the term activism knowing that today's generation of students are so into volunteerism that on any given campus between 90 percent and 95 percent of the students may be involved in volunteer work, which is great. But that is a certain number of times I am talking about a mentality of twenty-four to seven mentality about how one lives one's life, caring about the causes. Justice everywhere. So a poor family in Washington, DC we got to care about them! A person hungry in Afghanistan, and dying because we got to care about them! Just your thoughts on that. 83:44 PS: I do not know much about what universities are thinking these days. I really do not know if they are concerned about that or not. 83:50 SM: You go speak on college campuses? 83:52 PS: I do and it seems like there is a lot of activist minded people and their groups. You know, it seems like there is always kids out there looking for stuff, yeah. 84:03 SM: The last question I will not ask about these names here, but I want to repeat this because I think I lost that important segment where you were talking about how did you become who you are. If you could just repeat that for me because I think that is what I lost here on the tape that is very important how PS, how you became who you are. And certainly, the pride you have in your, your background. 84:31 PS: Oh, I think I am somebody who has a talent for writing and who is bad at everything else. So I have been fortunate enough to, you know, sort of through activism and, and then later through writing about things that interested me, you know, I am able to write successfully and find people that are interested in similar things. So, but it is mostly about being bad at everything else I think. 85:03 SM: Who? Who was? Did your parents inspire you to be a writer? Did your father, who was a professor. Did he say Paul jeez, looks like you got talent here. Did you have a teacher that says you got a talent here? How did you know that you were a good writer? 85:22 PS: I guess there was a teacher or two. Not so much my parents in terms of writing, I sort of became a writer kind of late. So it is hard to point to anything specific. So it was, I do not know, partly writing to figure out what I think I guess. 85:44 SM: And then to repeat that other thing, too, about, you know, your father, your mother, one's Native American and one is white, will you repeat that again, about your background, because that was what I think was hurt there. Where you came from and - 86:01 PS: Yeah, me and my two sisters report in West Texas. My mom Comanche my dad, a white guy from a farming family both from Oklahoma. And we lived in Ithaca, New York briefly and then - 86:19 SM: You know that is where I am from do not you? 86:20 PS: Ithaca. Right. Yeah. And then living mostly in Maryland, suburban Washington with a lot of connection to Oklahoma. 86:33 SM: Is there any last question? Last question: is there any questions I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask? 86:45 PS: Seemed like a very comprehensive set of questions. 86:47 SM: I am worried that I botched that one. I think the Alcatraz one, you, I think we got enough here. Yeah, but let us hope this is okay. Okay. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paul Chaat Smith Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smith, Paul Chaat ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Comanche Indians; Authors; Essayists; Museum curators; Smith, Paul Chaat--Interviews Description An account of the resource Paul Chaat Smith is a Comanche author, essayist, and curator. He wrote the books Like a Hurricane: The Indian Movement from Alcatraz to Wounded Knee and Everything You Know about Indians Is Wrong. Smith has also lectured at the National Gallery of Art, Center for the Arts in San Francisco, and the Getty Center for the History of Art and the Humanities in Los Angeles. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.208a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.208b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 87:01 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4dd9b79e07b905eebb184c938db06c62.jpg 87bb7515db9433bb3b1f46d0cd97cb1c https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d64fde35685b4bc7bb1d20f9c70ec91f.mp3 57ca2e5d45e5e68a725e28abb87ad020 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2003-05-28 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Paul Critchlow Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Paul Critchlow retired from the Bank of America as the head of communications and public affairs. Previously, he served as the chief political writer for the Philadelphia Inquirer and then as press secretary to Pennsylvania Governor Dick Thornburgh. Critchlow has a Bachelor's degree from the University of Nebraska, Omaha and a Master's degree from Columbia University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15243,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,4995385],"15":"Arial","16":11}">Paul Critchlow is a Vietnam veteran with years of experience in government, finance, and journalism. Critchlow retired from the Bank of America as the head of communications and public affairs. Previously, he served as the chief political writer for the Philadelphia Inquirer and then as press secretary to Pennsylvania Governor Dick Thornburgh. Critchlow has a Bachelor's degree from the University of Nebraska, Omaha and a Master's degree from Columbia University. Paul Critchlow served in Vietnam and he considers this experience the watershed event in his life.   Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 102:40 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; WWII; Hiroshima; Baby boom generation; Anti-War Movement; Veteran; Dwight D. Eisenhower; John F. Kennedy; Richard Nixon; Tom Hayden; Jane Fonda; Lyndon B. Johnson; Conscientious objector; Benjamin Spock; Environmental movement; George McGovern; Robert McNamara"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427},"12":0}">Vietnam War; WWII; Hiroshima; Baby boom generation; Anti-War Movement; Veteran; Dwight D. Eisenhower; John F. Kennedy; Richard Nixon; Tom Hayden; Jane Fonda; Lyndon B. Johnson; Conscientious objector; Benjamin Spock; Environmental movement; George McGovern; Robert McNamara Subject LCSH Bank of America; Journalism—Political aspects; Press secretaries; Critchlow, Paul--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Paul Critchlow Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So Date of interview: 28 May 2003 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:00 SM: When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what comes to your mind when you think of that period? 0:10 PC: Well for me it was a, it was a very exciting, it was a very exciting period. It was also clearly; I was very aware that it was a tumultuous period. I was raised and born and raised in Omaha, Nebraska. And I remember, I went to high school in the from (19)64 through-through, I am sorry, from 1960 to 1964. So, the Civil Rights Movement was somewhat underway. I was a little isolated from it in you know, Nebraska at that time was a fairly conservative state. It still is, but much more cosmopolitan now than it was then, and I remember certainly reading about all these things and being interested in curious and did not necessarily have a lot of exposure to them. I remember that I actually had no interaction with any-any black people until I was on the high school, track and football teams in uh Omaha Benson High School and competed against them. We had no blacks, had no Hispanics, no Asians at all in my school we were I was basically all white. That was a big school, 2500 kids. And you know, I remember running against them and track Gale Sayers was one of the guys that ran against yeah, he was two years older than me, but I still had two years of overlapping, competing with him and he, he beat me. But then and then when I went to Nebraska University, I got a full-full scholarship to play football there. And of course, there were quite a few African Americans on the football team. And, uh, and yet, there were not still not very many blacks in the school in the university, which was a very-very, it was a big school, there must have been 30,000 kids in the school. And so that was kind of my exposure to them. I absolutely remember, John, uh, John F. Kennedy, getting killed. I was a, uh, I think a sophomore in high school. And then I remember in college Robert F. Kennedy being assassinated in Los Angeles. And I just remember being incredibly bereft by his assassination. I remember being out with a girl who was a go-go dancer in the, from, you know from the one of the downtown Lincoln Nebraska bars. And I remember laying out in the cornfield with her and we decided, you know, we were both upset by his death, and we decided that we would meet the next morning and, you know, drive out to California. And we did not. [laughter] We did not meet, and we did not drive. So, you know, I, I had I had no direct experience with any of it but clearly had some consciousness of it. And I knew as an exciting time I knew the war was starting the Vietnam War was starting to heat up and I had entered the University of Nebraska in 1964. And was a redshirt which meant I had five years of eligibility, so I figured I got five years to avoid the draft and all my friends were thinking the same thing. They were all you know a number of them begin to take steps to-to avoid being drafted. All middle-class kids, nobody wealthy but you know, middle, middle, middle economic strata and the-the, um, a number of them as they got closer to the end of school, join the National Guard or the Air National Guard. Some of them got married. Now they, in every case they were truly in love. They had girlfriends and they got married and nobody you know, as far as I recall, it was not like there was a whole lot of debate on the campus of Lincoln. The only protest I remember is probably in my junior or my third or fourth year, which would have been (19)60. Well, probably in my fourth year, which was (19)67/ (19)68. There were about 50 protesters outside the administration building. And I remember, uh, I remember that irritating me for the first time I think I had a sensation of patriot-patriotism. But at the same time, I was kind of like a lot of kids in the (19)60s, also into the (19)60s, you know, flower child, hippie kind of lifestyle was interesting. You know, an intriguing, of course I never lived it, did not really even do drugs then but I did drink a lot of beer. And so, I remember the, in the, uh, it was just it was sort of a lot of partying, partying, it was going on. And I remember getting, you know, drunk most nights and that I was not, you know, in football training, and even some nights when I was and so I do not know how long you want me to go on, you know. 6:38 SM: That-that is good. Okay. When you think of the boomer generation, sociologists will say that the boomer generation are people that were born between 1946 and 1964. Although anybody who knows history knows that some of the leaders of the antiwar movement were born in (19)41, (19)42, (19)43 and (19)44. It is hard to kind of differentiate the two. But do you get a lot? A lot of people today, sociologists oh, George rolls even done it tax the boomer generation as being a very negative generation in American history because of drugs, the sexual lifestyle, and certainly the antiwar movement, the protest, what are your thoughts on the boomers? Do you consider them a group that added to our history in a positive way? Or, or do you feel that some of the things that they did we have really set back our nation and we still have some of these problems today because of what happened in the (19)60s? 7:45 PC: Hmm, it is a very, very interesting question. I mean, the, uh, well, the boomer generation was the largest population wave United States, you know, post all the immigration occurred here, but the I do not know, you know, I guess the, the, uh, the, there were- you know, I framed so many things in the context of the war because I went and I can, I am amazed to this day by how when another war is contemplated, the divisions resurface. And I am amazed by how people still write op eds and speak you know about the war from the Vietnam perspective. And when I came to-to-to participate in the forum you conducted you know, the-the fella who was an antiwar- 9:02 SM: Larry Davidson. 9:03 PC: -Guy, you know, uh, I found myself just really in my gut, angry at him. And knowing that was not rational I mean, intellectually I knew that was not rational. But clearly those-those the-the direction that I ended up going shaped how I view the world and I am sure in the direction he ended up going shaped how he viewed the world and informed him throughout the rest of his life. You know, I believe that is probably a safe statement to make. But on balance, I think that-that is like a subject for a sociological study, really that question but on balance, I think that the boomer generation has created the enormous wealth that we have, and I think it probably is the diversity of backgrounds and beliefs and opinions. That have caused American society to be so innovative, you know, people have not been afraid to voice their views and come up with-with ideas that might have seemed unpopular and they have been willing to go ahead and, you know, put their money where their mouth is or put there, you know, put their lives on the line and or, you know, just to state how they feel. I think that is probably better than having grown up in a, you know, homogenous culture that would have had everybody thinking more alike, so I mean, I think [phone rings] I think on balance, it is probably stimulated the, the country's economic and social progress. [phone continues to ring] 10:56 SM: Did you want to answer? This leads right into a perfect segue into the next question. What are the qualities you most admire in boomers? And what are the qualities you least admire? Again, from your vantage point, yeah, sir. 11:14 PC: Hmm I think the boomers came from a very rich environment in terms of the conflicts that they grew up, you know, in their formative years with the fact that they came from the World War II generation you know, they are the offspring of the World War II generation you know, the greatest generation as broke all called it. I was born on August 6, 1946, you know, exactly one year after the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima. And so, I was always aware of the dropping of the bomb and of course, in the (19)50s we went through the you know, the, uh, the Cold War, we went through the-the bomb shelters. And so, we had that. We grew up with that, in our for-formative years we grew up with, with that sort of overhanging fear and anxiety of nuclear war and worrying about the stability and personal trustworthiness of our leaders and leaders of Russia. You know, and so, you know, the-the and I and, and then to go into the (19)60s when I say worrying about the trustworthiness of our leaders, I think having confidence in the trustworthiness of our leaders through the (19)50s and then hitting the (19)60s. And having that confidence undermined by questions about the prosecution of the war, whether it was political, you know, questions about the establishment. I mean, we were children of-of a very establishment center, you know, way of life. And all of those feelings and attitudes became challenged in the (19)60s, you know, by the, by the civil rights movement, and I am talking now from the perspective of a shelter, white boy, no, without a lot of exposure to a black population. There was one in Omaha there was a and they lived in one part of Omaha. And there was not really a whole lot of integration, you know, so I mean, I was just not exposed to it. And then to have all of that have that sort of, you know, that sort of set of attitudes, that everything is the way that I am used to it having all that being challenged and undermined in the (19)60s and probably the (19)70s. I think required boomers to become more adaptable and forced us to maybe be more thoughtful about our own ideological beliefs. And so, we were about you know, I-I think it was the one I that was what I talked about when I talked about the context of where we came from, and-and what we went through. Gave us gave us an ability to-to be more adaptable to, to different ways of thinking and different ways of looking at things and- [doorbell rings] 15:14 SM: Right in the middle of that questionnaire regarding the quality you most admire or at least admire and antics. 15:21 PC: Yeah, I, I think the boomers demonstrated both admirable and not so admirable qualities. I think the boomers unfortunately also became known as rather self-centered and sort of became the, you know, the- because there was such a period of economic prosperity. They got a reputation for being a little materialistic, you know, the me generation like but I also think that they they-they have stablish you know, a tremendously much more informed kind of body politic or electorate, if you will. That has, uh, I mean, I, to me, what is amazing is you really had during Vietnam, kind of roughly half the population favored the war and half the population did not favor the war. And the debate and the divisions were very sharp, and you were kind of either forward or again. And if you think about how the body politic has evolved in the United States, you know, the parties are almost constantly shifting back and forth in terms of control and elections. So, so there is there are there are rooms there is room for a sort of the more left leaning ideology and the more right leaning and ideology and it is, it just never ceases to amaze me that the It is- stays consistently so, you know, for decades, you know, for down through the decades since the (19)60s and (19)70s. And I think that, you know, that has to have come from the from the divisions and the different-different experiences that people had. You know, as you said, everybody was touched by Vietnam one way or another. Right, everybody, you know, I mean, just was- 17:28 SM: Some of the books will say that 15 percent of the population was actually involved in some sort of an activist movement, but that the other 85 percent effective their subconscious in some way. So, the whole 70 plus million boomers were in some way affected. 17:43 PC: By oh, definitely. 17:44 SM: By-by Vietnam. I like your thoughts on the impact that boomers have had on their kids. Because I think this is interesting, because I just my perception is once your thoughts as I looked at some of the young people from generation X, which was the generation the foul in the (19)90s, and now generation Y, which I believe is your son's, my nephews group too, um, our they as activist minded as the people from the (19)60s that it was almost like when they look at the (19)60s or the seven, early (19)70s, they do look upset with boomers because they are nostalgic for they wish they have lived during that time. Because, of course, this is before 9/11 is really yeah. 9/11. And certainly, has changed everything. But your thoughts on whether boomers have passed on their activism to their kids in following generations. 0:18:42 PC: I mean, boy, that is a tough one. You know, I mean, it is like- I think boomers, I really can only speak from personal experience, but I think boomers have tended to pass on whatever their basic attitudes and ideologies were. I passed on a stronger belief in authority in authoritarianism and establishment way of life. My wife is 10 years younger than me. So, she is a half generation, you know, removed. Born in 1956. She has always been very activist and always very, very challenging of government and authority and she has passed that on to the kids. So, there has been a little struggle for the little bit of a struggle for the soul of our children's souls of our children. And each of them has picked up my daughter is probably more- I am sure there must be some conflicting impulses there, but my daughter is more is more activist and more liberal, more left leaning and she is, she will challenge authority, you know all the time, and yet likes the comforts provided by the more establishment way of life. My son is probably more like me, and more, more respectable, more respectful of authority. And-and yet he is also not afraid to ask questions, but he does it with he does it without the edge that my daughter does. So that is a tough one. It is hard for me to generalize about that. I do not know how to do that. It is good. 20:46 SM: It is good because you from an individualistic point of view, right. Yeah, generalists? Well, I think that learned from working with college students that you cannot generalize. 20:55 PC: No. 20:56 SM: You cannot and be around a group one year and then the next year is totally different. And when I was years ago used to say every 10 years, you can see the difference between generation now it is every four years. 21:10 PC: I do think there was a generation X which is, you know, I mean, I had him fairly late. So, I mean, I also have a 28-year-old son by a first marriage. But I was not around we set we divorced. And that generation was known as the slacker generation. And they were more into me they were more into just getting by. But now I see you know, now I see him come, you know, he has come out of that. And he is-he is a, I think we are more I think boomers, most boomers tend to be more tolerant of experimentation by their kids. Because they did not, you know, I mean, there is nothing, there is very little that I did not do. I mean, I, you know, you know, was very interested in sexuality. You know, I think everybody is, but you were more free to experiment with it. I was more likely to experiment with drugs not the way the generation X I think got into it more, I believe. Well, that is not true. I think there is quite a bit of drug use in the (19)60s. But anyway, I cannot remember the basic question now. [laughter] 22:42 SM: Sure, man, let me show this to you talk about-about the antiwar movement. Could you comment on your thoughts on those individuals who are involved in the antiwar movement and secondly, how what kind of impact did they have on ending the war. I interviewed him. I have had some unbelievable mixed responses to this question. To see your thoughts on the antiwar movement. 23:14 PC: Well, first of all, you know, as a veteran, and relating more to the way I was treated well, relating the two things that I can specify one when I was there. First of all, I mean, I think, you know, I volunteered for the draft. You know, I did not enlist I literally called my draft board and said, I am ready to be drafted even though I had another year of college eligibility. And what happened was, I just got I broke my leg and football, and you know, began drinking even worse and just sort of decided, you do not want to play football anymore and you are screwing off in school. You know, and I knew that Vietnam was going to be the defining experience of my generation. And I made a conscious decision, if that is what it is, I would rather go be there and see it, than to oppose it or avoid it. And it was not out of any great sense of patriotism at all. Steve, it was much more out of a sense of adventure, and curiosity. You know, what, what, what is this thing? I mean, how can this be, you know, I mean, you saw a lot of images on TV and read about it, but it was sort of like, you know, I want to go see, I want to be there, I want to be at this, I want to be at the center of action. Now, there are two ways to do that. You know, one was to be in the antiwar movement. One was to be in the war. And so, I am very careful to explain that I am, I am not a great patriot. And then I went there thinking, oh my God, I have to defend my country. I mean, I was aware that there was opposition to the war that there were questions about how the politicians were conducting it. And part of it was just to escape, you know, an unfortunate, you know, sort of a downward spiral that I was in I just I just wanted to get away from Nebraska and get out and get away from football and get away from the, you know, the-the defeatism that I felt, you know, from breaking my leg, you know, I was just sort of like depressed, you know? So, I uh- 25:31 SM: Did you fear losing your life. Did you when you want to be in the center of action? 25:34 PC: I was, I was aware, but I did not care. I mean, it was like, I mean, I truly just thought, you know, I wanted the experience, but it was more of an experience seeking was not thrill seeking, it was just, I want to see what this is all about. If it is, I absolutely knew, as you say, I knew at that time that it was going to define my generation I just knew it and I and I decided I do not want to be on it. I want to be there and experience what it really is more than I want to be on the other side opposing it. Okay, so. So, I went over, and the first specific thing is that I remember hearing and reading, you know, and I knew because I went over in (19)69 hearing and reading that, I mean, the (19)69 is when troops started to get withdrawn. You will recall that was sort of the turning, turning point of the of the war. And so, I knew that the politicians were starting to react to the antiwar protests. So, when I went over, morale was not-not very good. And I attributed that to the antiwar protesters and in particular to the kids on college campuses. So immediately, the, the, you know, the first time that I saw an American, you know, get killed. My anger toward the enemy became very great. And I did in fact, equate the enemy with communists and, uh, and then I wanted to, you know, and then I felt great anger toward the antiwar protesters. Then I came back, you know, badly wounded, almost died and was treated, you know, very badly and with great disrespect by the moment I came back, I mean, it was just unbelievable. I mean, my-my friends would not return my phone calls, they would all virtually I would say 95 percent of my friends had avoided the war one way or the other. Old girlfriends would not even come to the phone when I called. I remember going to a party. And these were not particularly antiwar people, but I sort of lumped them all together. I remember going to a party I was on crutches. And it was in a big room and the whole room just gradually moved away from me. And all of a sudden, I was standing there alone in a corner on crutches and just thinking, oh, my God, I just these people hate me. I feel terrible. They did not want to talk to me, you know, I mean, and-and so what did I do? Then I healed and I went back to undergraduate school and finished up my undergraduate degree, and then I went to, uh- but I had a deep, you know, antipathy for the protesters. And then I went to Columbia Graduate School of Journalism. And on the very first night that I went to campus for the first organizational meeting, there was a huge, so now we are talking 1970, (19)70, uh, 1970 like 19- Fall of (19)70 there was a Huge antiwar protest right in the quadrangle, and I had to walk through it to get to my first sort of class meeting, the incoming class. And I just remember thinking, you know, I want to kill these motherfuckers. And yet I was also terrified that they would find out I was a Vietnam veteran. Right. I was the first Vietnam veteran to go to the Graduate School of Journalism. And so, I sort of put my jacket over my head and just sort of snuck through the group. You know, there was thousands of and, and I and I literally thought to myself, you bastard, you fucking spoiled you know, college kids do not understand that you are causing people to die, causing Americans to die by not supporting them. Those are my feelings. Okay. So, and then I hid the fact that I was a Vietnam veteran for six months. Nobody in my class knew it. Until finally after about six months, I got to know people well enough, let them know that I was a veteran. And I listened to all the antiwar, crap and rhetoric. And just I was just full of anger, you know, most of the time. And yet, because I had four years of undergraduate school before I went into the army, you know, I did not go over as a 17-year-old or 18-year-old draftee, I mean, I went over to draftee, but I was already 20. You know, 23. So, and, and I had an intellectual understanding, which was strengthened over, you know, over time that the antiwar protests were, in fact, helping to bring about an end to the war. And so, I knew overall that was good. But as you say, the defining factor for me in terms of how I felt about the antiwar movement was that they disrespected- [audio get cut off] 31:21 SM: Did you were a military garb? 31:22 PC: No, I never know I never want military garb. 31:26 SM: Did Professors treat you when they found out you were a vet. I have heard mixed stories about professors. 31:32 PC: Well, there were some, there were some absolute super left-wing professors there and I think I just avoided you know, like I say I was it was only it was a nine-month program, the Graduate School of Journalism. And for six months I mean, I just avoided talking to them about it. But I hated it. I still performed you know, all right. I got threw in blah, blah, blah. And I became more because I became interested in journalism in really as a result of my experience in Vietnam, then I began to read a lot more. And I became acutely aware that the antiwar movement in the end, probably was intellectually understood that it was a positive force. And but you have to separate the emotional and the intellectual. Right. And I have always done that. And, uh, sorry I cannot remember what the basic question was. 32:40 SM: No, but you covered up beautifully. One of the things that is interesting, you probably remember this as a young person to that. I can remember this on college campuses. You would go to a rally; you would be in a class. The Boomers would always say, a lot of students would say we are the most unique generally in American history, we are going to change the world. There is nothing like us. And there will be nothing like this. No generation that will follow us and we are going to make the world a better place. We are going to solve all the problems of the world or an end racism, sexism, you know, all kinds of things, peace in the world. Was that boasting? You thought? You heard that when you were a young person? Oh yeah, I heard it all the time when I was a student, no-no. And, and now, boomers are all in their mid (19)50s. Mm hmm. And so just kind of reflecting again, maybe- 33:41 PC: Yeah, I think I well, okay. I mean, I think there was a real sense of idealism. You know, especially on the college campuses. And again, you know, we have to remember we are talking about from our experience, you know, we were in college. There were a lot of boomers who were not- did not go to college, but I cannot speak for them. I do not really know. But their worlds were like, but the, there was the idealism of the (19)60s, as I said, the flower power you know, the tune in, the drop out, tune out, tune in or whatever it is, you know that the thing was, yeah, Timothy Leary, and all that there was a, a sense that there could be, there was a sense that that peace was a, an ideal to be achieved, and that there was a sense of individual empowerment to be able to achieve peace or at least reduce or eliminate war if individuals simply decided not to participate. And so, there was that there was a sense of power and that you could do important things and yeah, I mean, I think it was, you know, I met I think there was that sense. And I, I think boomers today have moved into all, you know, boomers today are in all these positions of leadership, partly by virtue of their age, but I do not think there is any lack of, you know, confidence that social ills and, you know, other major, very tough problems cannot be tackled. I mean, I think that is, I think that is sort of intrinsic in the boomer generation. By the way, I forgot to mention that. Another thing that caused me to decide to go to Vietnam was that my father was a pilot during World War II, in the Army Air Corps, and he trained on B-29 bombers. And, but unfortunately, he was [phone rings] unfortunately- I mean, I say unfortunately says what you think. I mean, he, just as he finished his training, the war ended. And so, he did not ever go overseas. And that always bothered him. And they regret it that he never had a chance to go. And so, I think that was in the back of my mind, you know, you have a chance to go have this experience. So, you should do that, you know. And I wanted it to make him proud of me. Did I miss your last question? 36:38 SM: No, you understand the culture, some of these? Talk about the importance of the Vietnam Memorial in Washington DC, and the whole concept of healing. I think, to me, what was described, and others did, and the creation of that wall is set an example for everyone in terms of healing. But I would like your thoughts on as the wall itself from your personal feelings, the effect that it has on veterans today. And also, the effect that it has on those people who were the antiwar movement. And I have probably read stories too about members of the antiwar movement and Larry Davidson, who said, you are right, was down in Washington with his son and his son, his son is only the same age as your son. He said dad what did you do in the war? And you know, Larry never really talked much about it, because he is a Messer. And so, he had to explain what he did, because there is so the basic question is, what-what impact has the Vietnam Memorial had on Vietnam veterans, the people who probably worried about the antiwar movement and the nation as a whole and how and in terms of healing? 38:00 PC: Yeah, well, I believe the Vietnam Veterans Memorial is has had an enormously positive and very powerful effect on the Vietnam veterans themselves. I remember when it was first being debated discussed 20 years ago, 20 years ago. Yeah. I did not really, I still had not fully, quote come out about being a Vietnam veteran. Because I felt sort of, I mean, I was proud of that of my individual service. But it was not something that I talked about a lot. I guess that stems from, you know, the reaction when I came back, you know, and from my friends and from, you know, going to Colombia and you know, I mean, it just was, it was it was a nascent feeling for me to have any sense of pride in it because, you know, the war was so widely condemned as a bad thing. You know, and-and the- and, you know, the other part of it is, I think you come to terms with what you actually did, you know, in the war yourself, and I was in a lot of combat, and I did, you know, participate in some killing and, and, and I think that, you know, there were some really terrible, you know, incidents and situations and most of us, you know, who were in combat. You know, you carry that with you, so you feel you feel a little guilty about what you did, too. And so, the-the, the drive to create the wall I-I sort of hung back from it. I sort of watched it, but I did not get emotionally involved in it ever until years after it was built. In fact, it was years before I went saw it. 40:17 SM: Yeah, I know several vets who have not gone yet. 40:20 PC: Yeah, and-and then I remember when I first did go to see it. God it was like it was only maybe it was probably about must have been about 12 years ago or something like that. It was about eight years old. And I remember just walking down into that wedge, you know that and just thinking, oh my god, this is just overwhelming. I mean, it was just so powerful and-and it was just it was in fact very, very healing and I went back to my hotel room. I was down there on business, and I immediately called, you know, Clearview Florida and got directory assistance for my best friend in the army who was killed their Roland dePaolo. And, and I had gone to his home, I knew his family and, but I had never ever contacted them ever, ever since. You know, coming back myself, and I called her and I talked to his mother and I said, I just want to know, I just went to the wall, and I found Roland’s name and I just, you know, I just, you know, I was thinking that was the first time you would ever yeah, wow, first time I had ever contacted her even though I knew them and I knew where they lived and I had been to their home because he and I used on leave from Fort Benning used to go there to his home. But that was how conflicted I was, you know, not wanting to deal with things that went on. Just not wanting to deal with any of it you know, other than sort of distantly and emotionally and. And so then of course, I began to go, you know, every time I went to Washington, and so it has become it became enormously healing but I did not know anybody in the in the move- I mean, I did not know anybody in the movement. I got interested in vet veterans. I was active in Veterans Affairs, but it was mostly because of politics because I was big former military. So, I did it as because I had entree, and I could get the veterans to line up behind Thornburg. But I was not really emotionally. And by the end, by the way, it was all World War Two, you know, and Korean vets, you know, it was it was the American Legion types Basically. The Vietnam veterans, or the Vietnam Veterans of America had just formed up and I sort of, they were sort of like, there were some real crazies who started that thing up and I saw I sort of kept my distance from them. 42:59 SM: Bobby Muller one Bobby. 43:01 PC: Bobby Muller, who I knew now I have known I have talked to and, and, and a guy named Dave Christian, remember him in Philadelphia, he was kind of an operator. But anyway, so-so the war so the wall became a tremendous-tremendous healing mechanism for me personally. And then I was able to deal with it and you know, I love going there and of course subsequently, I got involved with the people on the corporate advisory board. And actually, I actually got involved through the women's Vietnam Memorial that was how I got involved because I somebody asked me to meet with Diane and I helped help raise money in Maryland. So, and then the more I got into it, you know, the more I got, you know, then I met Scruggs and Right. And I just got more and more drawn into it, you know, and it was just an enormously healing device for me and through the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Foundation, then of course, I got invited back to, to go with a delegation to Vietnam, a heck of an experience on the 25th anniversary of the fall of Saigon. And that was just an extraordinary opportunity to go back. And in the article that I wrote in American heritage, you will see that I, my wife, Patty, said to me several years earlier, you know, I think you should go to Vietnam, and I will go with you. And she said, so my gift to you is, you know, we will go to Vietnam together and I said, oh, that was nice, but I did not really want to go, you know, I just always found reasons not to go. Then when I got this invitation. All of a sudden, there was no reason not to go and I went. 45:00 SM: How many people went all together? 45:01 PC: There were about I think about 20 business, businessmen in the delegation, you know, which was led by Jan Scruggs and James Kinsey. And, you know, people I knew, just absolutely astonishing experience and I found the battlefield where I was wounded. And that was, I found the exact spot. I mean, I did a lot of tremendous amounts of research again, which is all documented in that article, but- 45:29 SM: Still look the same. 45:31 PC: No, it was built up. No, it was jungle, and it was farmed. It was being farmed when I got there. So, I actually it was easier for me to spot than I thought because I knew that topography. I knew the map. And through research I found, I knew it was Hill 102 and I found the hill and I found the spot and it was really just that to me that was it was the probably the, the most emotional and greatest moment of my life was to find that spot on the battlefield to find the battlefield. And then finally, when I say spot generally, you know, the, the place where I was almost killed. 46:12 SM: If had not been for visiting that wall, you never would have been there. 46:15 PC: I would never have, would have never gone there. And I just would not, well, I might have gone on my own, but probably not. You know, so. 46:27 SM: I have a question here on trust. We all know the history about Lyndon Johnson, and, uh- 46:38 PC: Is that really going to affect your tape. 46:40 SM: It might I am not sure. [they pause to fix the audio] Do you think of Lyndon Johnson you think of Richard Nixon think of Watergate you think of Vietnam. You had mentioned earlier in the interview about during the (19)50s. We looked at our leaders as young people, there was a sense of trust. But then we get into the (19)60s and there is a lack of tremendous lack of trust because of what was being told to us about the Vietnam War. And McNamara and the body count on the other things and certainly Richard Nixon and Watergate kind of a lack of trust in leaders was something that many people in fact a lot of the boomer generation looks on that period that is why I think they oftentimes continue to distrust leaders. Your thoughts on the- what that is really done to America? Because you know, you live you work in the corporate world, and you have seen it in recent years about people, young people, we are always looking at young people and how they look at leaders, whether it be in the corporate world, whether they be in Washington, DC or whoever they are, university presidents, and whatever. What-what did that have? What effect did that have on the movie regeneration returned to their psyche as they raise their own children and then we head into days here because you talked about the boomers are a fluid group, yet they grew up around leaders that they did not trust especially in their formative years. 48:20 PC: I would guess that it-it has generally had a negative effect on-on American society certainly on the formations of the sustainability of different administration's okay. Watch your tape or something. I you know, I think that the-the boomers are somewhat more ready and always have been too ready to believe bad things that are said about their leaders as a result of having been having grown up in the (19)60s. And so, you know, in in the days of Eisenhower and JFK, you know, there was enormous confidence. Now, it is a little naive not to not I mean, Richard Nixon, Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon had a lot to do with that theory, by their behaviors, so, but that is what I am talking about, you know, so Nixon was probably driven to do the things he did, you know, by-by, by fear of, by, obviously by a paranoid fear of not being trusted. So, you know, it there is probably there is probably too much skepticism on the part of boomers, about their leaders, the leadership of their country and the leadership of their states and cities. They are too ready to believe bad things they are in and that in and of itself creates a market for the media and for political, for other political people to make negative statements about people in office, or people running for office. It is a very, I mean, politics has become very negative and very poisonous. And I think that has, you know, that must have some of its roots in the, in the willingness of the body of the major part of the body politic. to, you know, to believe all the negative stuff or to want to hear it, you know, I mean, it is like, a lot of the negative stuff is real. Irrelevant to governing. 51:02 SM: When you look at the media today and how they looked at some of the corporate leaders that have gone down? Yeah. And, you know, what is the media's role in all this too? And certainly, basically, what you are saying then is that some of the individuals that are our age, who are in the antiwar movement or against the leaders, there are, are not easy targets, but are individuals that believe, immediately when they hear the stories about the corporate leaders, right, I think about the willing to generalize the generalization again, which we can never get into analyzing all corporate leaders, because the bad actions of a few. 51:47 PC: Exactly that is what I think you said it better. And it could I mean, it is just there is just this tremendous sort of susceptibility to believing that if a few people are bad at actors that the whole corporate scene or the whole governmental scene is full of bad actors, that it is that it is intrinsically corrupt. And that is just that is not usually I believe that most, the 99 percent of all the people in government public service, you know, are more in leadership are good and decent people. But there is a willingness to generalize, the opposite, you know, fan by the media, which, I mean, the media would not be fanning out if there were not an appetite for it. So, I am not blaming the media. I am blaming the appetite. You know- 52:44 SM: I have names here that I have some names here that I want to read off and just some quick responses and your thoughts on these individuals, just your personal opinions. And these are people of the era, right. Tom Hayden. 53:05 PC: Tom Hayden, you know I have a very negative had a very negative view of him which stayed negative which is still negative because I know I know his activities as a state senator in California. 53:23 SM: Jane Fonda. 53:26 PC: I do not use the word hate lightly, but I hate her. I mean, the picture of her sitting in an anti-aircraft. Battery was a-a, an North Vietnamese Army helmet on her head in Hanoi is just infuriating beyond belief. I think she committed the ultimate act of treason. She had no standing to do it. You know, she no standing to do it so. So, I sort of suspend my belief in free speech when it comes to Jane Fonda. And I link her with Tom Hayden. So, they were married. You know- 54:10 SM: There was a slogan in Washington DC this past week. And then I saw him It says, I will forgive Jane Fonda when the Jews forgive him. I would say that was amazing. And it was a big sign. And it was, it was right as people were walking in to get tickets. Yeah. 54:25 PC: I do not know if I would go that far because- but I-I-I just despise what she did I despise, by the way, now you are getting my real innermost feelings because I despise celebrities. All celebrities who make, uh, anti-war statements who have no standing whatsoever to do that except by virtue of their celebrity. If you give me a you know, if you give me a-a university professor who has studied history, and he opposes the war in Iraq, I will bet, that I respect but if you give me some of these actors who stood up, most of whom never went to college, you know, Susan Sarandon, they can all kiss my ass are concerned, I would not even go to a movie to see him. But other than that, I do not feel strongly. 55:26 SM: It is okay. Just-just quick thoughts on Lyndon Johnson. 55:31 PC: Lyndon Johnson, I think was I have you know, I have mixed reaction mixed feelings about him. I mean, he, I think was he inherited a war situation I think he was a victim of his own pride and, but it was also somewhat tied in his in his pride in America, that he did not know how to extricate America from that war with honor. But I also give him enormous credit for advancing the civil rights agenda of the country. And I think that history is looking more kindly on him. And I think he demonstrated enormous courage not running for another term. 56:18 SM: It is interesting. There is some, everybody seems to dwell on the foreign policy of Vietnam. The Lyndon Johnson brand new book just came out on Lyndon Johnson and NATO. Johnson in Europe and others are starting to look more about other things that he did in the world besides the Vietnam era, which is when. Bobby Kennedy. 56:37 PC: Bobby Kennedy, in many ways, though, he had an antiwar bent. He was so articulate, you know, that I admired him. And in fact, when he came in Nebraska University to speak, he had a huge reception, even though it is a very conservative place, he had an ability to inspire and uplift people. 57:00 SM: Certainly did, boy did I was I was a student in New York at that time campaigning. 57:06 PC: And also, he was, you know, the keeper of the Kennedy flame. And you know, and I, like everybody else. I idolized JFK because he was young and vibrant. And he showed he demonstrated courage on some bad pay in the Bay of Pigs in the Cuban missile crisis and all that sort of thing. So- 57:26 SM: Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, the Black Panther Party. 57:29 PC: I have very negative feelings about them because you know, they were trying to undermine the rightful process of government. 57:45 SM: Benjamin Spock. 57:46 PC: And they resorted to violence to do it. Right. I have by the way; I have completed and total respect for conscientious objectors who stood up for their beliefs? In other words, if they went to Canada, then I do not have respect for them if they declared themselves and went through the process, you know, the government process for dealing with that. Or went to jail or whatever. I have a lot of respect for them. You know, I do not, I do not, I have no disrespect to them at all. 58:27 SM: It is interesting. One of my best friends served two years. He was a conscientious objector. And he had two years up in newfound land and he did not like it down, but he paid the price for it. Yeah, I need your choice in two years now. Dr. Benjamin Spock. 58:44 PC: You know, I heard he was antiwar. I do not have strong feelings about him. One way or the other I mean, I would probably give him a break on the grounds that he was, he was, he was interested in children in life and things like that. So- 59:00 SM: The Berrigan brothers, Daniel and Philip. 59:02 PC: Um. I did not like them. They were radical left wing cuckoo birds. 59:16 SM: Andy Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. 59:18 PC: Radical left wing cuckoo birds. And my-my feeling about a lot of these people who-who position themselves as leaders of this movement was great flamboyance was that they were, you know, in it for themselves. They were promoting themselves rather than their cause. And by the way, I do not know if that is fair or not, but that is just my feeling. 59:39 SM: But one of the things about Abbie Hoffman, he committed suicide I remember this taking was in (19)87 or (19)89 forgot what year it was zip in Bucks County and apart is an amazing story. He lives in Bucks County in an apartment. He had $2,000 to his name and he made a lot of money in his life. He gave all his money to causes He wrote a note when he committed suicide and he said, basically, no one is listening to me anymore. And to see he had left even involved in the environmental movement, and even on the Phil Donahue show when he came hiding it. He just wanted to show the world that he cared about a lot of issues besides the war. Yeah. And, and well, it was interesting and- 1:00:22 PC: So, he paid a price then too. 1:00:23 SM: Yeah, he got upset with Jerry Rubin because he moved to California and became a businessman. Timothy Leary. 1:00:32 PC: Oh, he was just a quack. 1:00:35 SM: How about Ralph Nader? 1:00:36 PC: Snake oil salesman, Ralph Nader. I actually have a little more respect for him because he buttressed all of his statements with research, these know even if I disagree with the reason. And I think he was probably a necessary force at the time to-to, you know, he came into being for a reason. 1:01:08 SM: And pretty consistent throughout as well. 1:01:09 PC: He really has he stayed true to his own ideology, and he has not been afraid. 1:01:14 SM: Daniel Ellsberg. 1:01:20 PC: I think he did a courageous thing in terms of getting the truth out, you know, the Pentagon papers and all that took a lot of courage to do that. 1:01:32 SM: George McGovern. 1:01:34 PC: I thought McGovern was one of the biggest phonies, and I met him. I covered him as a reporter. He is one of the biggest goddamn ponies I ever met. He would go around and talk about you know, neighborhoods looking like bombed out areas and you know, and I just got so sick of it because he said that about everything that he saw and, and I think he was a pilot or something. 1:01:57 SM: Yeah, 28 missions over- 1:01:58 PC: Yeah. So, I-I mean, I am happy for him, but I felt like he was exploiting his-his own war experience. 1:02:11 SM: And again, Hubert Humphrey. 1:02:13 PC: Yeah, you know, I mean, I have, you know, he is pretty nice. The happy warrior. I did not, you know, he just he was. I do not know; it was just interesting. I had no strong feelings about it. 1:02:25 SM: Yeah, a couple more names. And then part two final questions. Certainly, President John Kennedy. 1:02:34 PC: Well, yeah, I mean, I have like, like everybody else, I had a highly favorable impression of him and, and was felt deeply crushed, you know, when he was killed, and did not understand at the time as I do now that he is the one who got us really into the war. So now there are all sorts of stories being written about, you know, would he have been smart enough to get us out? You know, the wood before we went so far. And who knows, nobody really knows. 1:03:13 SM: It is interesting. It was mentioned that because when, the hour before they got into the car, when Eisenhower was leaving and President Kennedy was coming in, they were talking about Vietnam. And that is something that President Kennedy wanted to keep, because Eisenhower was involved and still being linked to Vietnam because of the support of the French interest. And so, and if you remember my office, so Harry Truman, by when Ho Chi Minh sent that letter to him, after the war, about trying to create a friendship there, so the links between all of our presidents from Truman and Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, and then for sure Ford, truly linked to Vietnam. 1:03:57 PC: That is true. 1:03:59 SM: Martin Luther King Jr. 1:04:02 PC: I had a very favorable impression of him. And still do. I mean, I think he was a very inspiring leader. 1:04:13 SM: What are your thoughts on he was one of the few civil rights leaders that was against the war. 1:04:18 PC: And he was off, I felt like he had the moral authority to do it. You know, I mean, he was so eloquent. And I do not remember that. I am just giving you my feelings now. I cannot remember. Right. You know, I do not remember anything that he said about it. But, you know, I think his opposition to some extent was based on the fact that it was young and poor people who were being drafted, and that, that was a valid concern. I as I said, I have a lot of resentment still of my friends in high school and college who avoided the draft through manipulations. 1:05:10 SM: Have you ever, have you ever met any of those kids that shied away from you that day when you came home around the crunches if you are going back to Nebraska Yeah, you know ever talk to them about what they did to you. 1:05:24 PC: No-no, I have never talked to them just-just not spoken of- 1:05:27 SM: But they talk to you now. 1:05:29 PC: I mean, you know, casual I do not I do not hang out with them. But- 1:05:33 SM: Robert McNamara. 1:05:38 PC: Well, I did not have much I had very little impression of him at the time. Now I have generally unfavorable impression of him just I mean, that is with the benefit of historical hindsight. You know, where he is concluding that his- where he finally I guess conceded, that is the buildup that he championed was flawed. The logic that he employed was flawed. And no one really understood the depth of willingness of Ho Chi Minh and the Vietnamese people to resist forever. They were willing to sacrifice every single male and many young females, you know, to, you know, I mean, they, their desire to be free, is historic. 1:06:36 SM: Let us get right into your thoughts right now in terms of why did we lose the war? In brief synopsis your thoughts on why we really truly lost this war. 1:06:52 PC: I am not 100 percent okay, let us say we probably, I believe that we could have subjugated that country if we had brought the full force of American society to bear on the effort, I think it would have been unbelievably costly in terms of American lives. And even more costly to use the metaphor you damn, damn, damn near would have had to pave the country over. But it could have been done, you know. So, I say that the end of winning the war would have been awful probably would have ended up being too costly. However, having said that, we have hugely crippled our ability because of political considerations. We hugely handicapped our ability to wage the war effectively, in my opinion, and I base this on my own real experience, because I was a fourth observer attached to an infantry company, and on many on numerous occasions, when we came under attack, I could not respond with artillery until there had been a series of clearances that had gone all the way to a village or provincial, D at South Vietnamese chief. And as a result, I think we suffered more casualties and, you know, we were just always crippled [inaudible] I often felt like we were fighting with one hand tied behind her back. And so, I do not know if that answered your question. But- 1:08:38 SM: One of the points that, uh- 1:08:40 PC: But the real reason I think we lost is because of the Vietnamese people themselves. Ho Chi Minh himself said in interviews we have always throughout our history, with various quote, colonial powers, you know, trying to occupy our country, and they had the Japanese they had the Chinese they had the French they had the Americans; you know, we have all these powers have always underestimated our willingness to sacrifice. And they would just keep sending people into the killing machine forever. I mean, they were they had limitless patience. So, I think we lost because you know, the will of the Vietnamese people to not be occupied was simply too strong. 1:09:37 SM: Getting back to the names here, but I have read quotes that when middle America finally money gets to war, Ohio, Nebraska, Kansas, that was when the war was over really was ending. Because of the you can debate with whatever you want to on whether the antiwar movement was the reason why the war ended. When middle America when sons and daughters start coming home with body bags, and you agree with that, the middle America- 1:10:12 PC: I think, politically, that was probably the final straw. I think the-the campuses and the East coast and the West coast. You know, went against the war fairly quickly, early on. But yeah, I think Middle America, I define it more broadly, because I think the culture of Middle America, so to speak, is also to be found in upstate New York, you know, Pennsylvania in places like that. And so, I think that they, uh, yeah, I think, I think that turned it for Nixon. I think when Nixon said, oh, my God, I am losing, losing, you know, I am losing. I am sure they were doing polling back then. And I am sure when-when the polling started showing that, you know, more conservative Republican voters were turning against them because of the casualties. And the feeling there was no end to it. I mean, it was it was viewed as a quagmire. 1:11:21 SM: Reading that we used to couple thoughts on Richard Nixon. 1:11:27 PC: Well, I think clearly one of the great tragic figures in our history, um, had a great, you know, intellectual capacity. But was, in fact, power, mad and paranoid and was so scared by his earlier defeats that you know, he just could not have, he just went overboard, you know, he crossed the line in terms of trying to win reelection. And, uh, I actually-actually this is sort of an aside, but I actually flew with Henry Kissinger on-on the corporate jet Maryland's corporate jet I took him out to he was giving a speech. It was just me and him in a corporate jet. And I told him that he met with the, uh, the Vietnamese foreign minister, I cannot remember the name right now, three days before I was wounded in secretly in Paris. It will be Acme no doubt he is a general I know it will-it will come back to me. I have got it in my one of my books somewhere. And I said to him, I said to Kessinger, I said, Dr. Kissinger, I said, if I wish you just started earlier, because if you had maybe I would not have been wounded. And he just kind of looked at me at all. All he said, “I am sorry, I did not start earlier”. I mean, it was a very, I mean, to think of me, you know, this little kid from Omaha, Nebraska, talking to the great Henry Kissinger, you know, on a corporate jet about these connections, I mean, him. I mean, it was just fucking amazing. 1:13:34 SM: Some people on the left want to put him on trial for some of the things he did in Vietnam. Some of the way-out people some of- 1:13:41 PC: It is pretty tricky, but I think that he I think he was so smart. I believe he recognized before others in the administration that this was a no-win situation. 1:13:55 SM: That is what upsets you more than anything else, when you read McNamara's books. That is, he leaves in (19)67 but really knew they could win the war prior to and the revelation. Exactly right. One of the things I like about the Vietnam Memorial and especially even with Mr. Scruggs in one little polar was there around, they believe in bringing people there to the wall may have been a little controversial but try to heal do not even go to the extent of healing. That was when Bill Clinton came. And of course, he was, you know, he was cheered, but, you know, I have often wondered, what extreme would-would the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund go in terms of a healing? Would they ever as McNamara ever been invited and would not [inaudible] calm? And would by him coming would that really do something in terms of the ultimate healing where he admits his mistakes and says he is wrong and I do not know how the veterans respond, but you know that to me, that is the ultimate healing. And of course, we mentioned the ultimate healing to with Jane Fonda. Yeah, it was a book written on her right now that she should have been court martialed. And back to the lawyers and lawyers have written that she-she could have easily gone to jail. 1:15:12 PC: And what she did was treasonous. Right. 1:15:14 SM: And the question is, would she ever come to the wall and that would create a stir, but it was certainly would-would be the ultimate healing the courage to say I was wrong because everything she said- 1:15:25 PC: I mean, I think everything has to come at a time. You know, I believe what you were saying I believe, and I believe that you bring your most extreme opponents into your own 10-year-old home at some point, and you try to break bread with them, and you try to find common ground. I really do believe that. But I think there has to be- healing comes in stages. And I cannot conceive that most Vietnam veterans have healed enough, right to have Jane Fonda into their home. I mean, but I think at some point in time that that could- it should happen though she may not live long enough for that to be the case- 1:16:27 SM: She is like 68 or- 1:16:29 PC: Yeah, I do not know how she is, but I mean, she may not, you know, be alive long enough for that to happen, but-but I think or as you said, over time, Jan is actually a very smart guy and he, he evolves. But Jan is also pretty good about touching base with a lot of people before he does something. If he thinks it is the right thing to do, he will do it. But, uh. 1:16:54 SM: It-it is interesting, that is an interesting point when I knew Louis was the end of his life, and he wants to be right after remembering, he wanted to be right up on that stage next to Bill Clinton. And we took the students down there in the clip was coming, I was not there that time, but he said, I am going to be up there. I am going to sit right next to him. I am going to get my wheelchair up there. To show him and it was a statement. No, and, uh, and I think an absent Mr. Scrubs is in agreement with that statement or a given layer. So, a couple other names here. Gerald Ford. 1:17:26 PC: Nice, you know, nice guy just kind of hapless. But, you know, I think did a very courageous thing and pardoning Nixon, which I think was a healing an act of healing, preventative healing almost because it prevented a long drawn-out criminal trial that would have really ravaged the nation, you know. 1:17:52 SM: Muhammad Ali. 1:17:56 PC: You know, uh, God I mean great athletes, inspiring athlete in many ways. I think he was pretty open about I mean; he was a conscientious objector and good he stated it. Hmm. 1:18:11 SM: He lost his title. 1:18:12 PC: Yeah. So, he stood up. I mean, he stood up and was counted. So, I have respect for him. 1:18:17 SM: Spiro Agnew. 1:18:19 PC: Sleazeball. Totally sleazeball. Absolute scummy low level award healing level politician should never been in that office. 1:18:30 SM: I agree. And I got I got I got a couple books on him. I do not know how he ever got. I do not know. I just do not understand. Gloria Steinem. 1:18:39 PC: I have a lot of respect for Gloria Steinem. I know her. I met her several times. She has always stood up and been counted. 1:18:49 SM: Barry Goldwater. 1:18:53 PC: I- you know, Barry Goldwater. I mean, he is too far right for me. You know, but he has, you know, he has-he has always he always spoke his mind and-and, uh, he just was too far right for the country. 1:19:13 SM: Bringing them all out for this here. John Mitchell. 1:19:18 PC: Oh, I think he was just a hack-hack, hack political lawyer. 1:19:23 SM: I want to ask you about his wife by the way. She was a trip about. 1:19:29 PC: The whole thing was just such a trip. 1:19:30 SM: Noam Chomsky. 1:19:32 PC: I do not know who that is now. 1:19:34 SM: He is the professor up at, uh, MIT. He is the antiwar. 1:19:39 PC: I know the name, but I do not have I have no knowledge of it very little knowledge of him. 1:19:43 SM: John Dean. 1:19:46 PC: You know, ambitious young guy there but for the grace of God go I somebody who got you know, swept up in the power thing and, and did some bad things, but in the end had the courage to stand up and be counted. 1:19:58 SM: He is from Binghamton, New York. 1:19:59 PC: Really? 1:20:00 SM: Yeah, and I can never forget. I was a student at SUNY Binghamton, and they had these articles and how we met that beautiful mole. His wife- 1:20:09 PC: Oh, she was beautiful. 1:20:10 SM: Oh yes. And she was sitting behind him and. Uh, some of the musicians of the year of Jimi Hendrix Janis Joplin, Bob Dylan. 1:20:18 PC: Loved them all. Love them all. Still got all their music. 1:20:24 SM: And their stand against the war, uh. 1:20:26 PC: Did not care, did not matter. I mean, I thought their music was romantic and it was not music of our times. You know? I mean, I love the doors. I love the Beatles. 1:20:38 SM: We have a- 1:20:38 PC: I love the Rolling Stones. I love Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin. I just I loved her music, but I did not, just did not take them, seriously what I resented the actors today, were you know. I mean, that was the (19)60s. I mean, it was-it was like, so I guess I have a little bit of a double standard. 1:21:00 SM: But when I was when I was in that accident when my arm was my senior year, 1970 and I was in the operating room on April 30, the night Nixon gave his Cambodia speech. And I was in the hospital for at least 10 days, and I had tickets to the Grateful Dead concert that it was at SUNY Binghamton. And if you go on the website for the Grateful Dead, they considered one of the top three concerts they ever did in their history, because the music was on edge because it was it was it was right after Kent State and it was like, tension was like something else. We will see. Sam Urban. I am getting near the end of my names here. 1:21:41 PC: You know, he was a- you know, courageous politician. 1:21:47 SM: And, uh, some terms SDS. 1:21:50 PC: Uh, radical left wing rabble rousers? 1:21:57 SM: The term counterculture. 1:22:02 PC: Uhm, an accurate term, just an alternative view of life? I guess, you know, one of the things that bothered me about all the counterculture was that it was, you know, it was mostly people by people who had some means of support. They were living somehow there was money coming from somewhere, probably their parents. So, I probably somewhat had this thing for them because I figured they were just-they were just having a good old time with, you know, drugs, sex and rock and roll on their parents’ dime. I do not know if that is fair or not, but that is my that was my view at the time. 1:22:46 SM: We a minister on the corner of the university, Pastor Steve capsule, Myers see now he is now he is the pastor of the church. But his claim to fame is he was at Woodstock for two days and he will not let anybody know that at church because it is an inside thing. He was there the first two days when he was 17. 1:23:05 PC: And the last day of Woodstock is the day I was wounded. So, I always am mindful of that. 1:23:12 SM: Did you know about Woodstock was going on? 1:23:12 PC: No, I did not know about it till after I came back. 1:23:18 SM: What about John Lennon? 1:23:22 PC: I love the Beatles. I loved them all. 1:23:25 SM: He was one of the biggest antiwar rights to the very end. 1:23:29 PC: Yeah, but, you know, there we go again. I mean, I have a double standard because yeah, he was-he was but his music was so beautiful. I mean, it just, I just, I guess, like, so you are sort of catching me in double standard land here. But that is what it is. I am just giving you feelings. 1:23:47 SM: William Westmoreland. 1:23:52 PC: I thought he was known a great command presence who was either fooling himself I mean; he I think he engaged in wishful thinking- in his prosecution or at least his presentation of the war. He was a source of a lot of statements that turned out not to be valid. 1:24:26 SM: Yeah. And that is the that links back to the Johnson, Nixon. 1:24:30 PC: Yeah. 1:24:31 SM: Truth. Where is the truth right? Two individuals in Vietnam one of them was the one we are talking about bringing the Westchester General Cao Ky and President Thieu. Just your thoughts on them as leaders in president to some of the leaders during the Vietnam War. 1:24:48 PC: Well, you know, I, I do not have that much knowledge on them and so I was a little you know, I mean, I think Thieu was basically a puppet in a corrupt man. I do not really know much about. 1:24:59 SM: Did not like each other Ramsay Clark. 1:25:03 PC: I do not have I have no reaction to him. 1:25:06 SM: And last couple or Maxwell Taylor and Henry Kevin Lunch. 1:25:10 PC: I do not have any real thoughts about- 1:25:13 SM: Chicago 8, Chicago 8 trial. 1:25:17 PC: Yeah. You know, they are just radicals as far as I was concerned, any-any of the antiwar types that advocated violence, or encouraged or used it, I resented. 1:25:33 SM: That is what split SDS beginning it was an antiwar group. But as soon as the weathermen started doing the violence- 1:25:40 PC: Well, we have you know, we are two blocks, literally two blocks away is where the, you know, the weathermen. People are two blocks away from me, let me straighten your goddamn out here, Dustin Hoffman's apartments right next door and they just blew the whole goddamn from the building off. Killed a couple of them. Couple of young people were killed. 1:26:02 SM: When the best history books are written, and oftentimes the best history books are written 50 years after an event. What do you think will be the ultimate, uh, what do you think historians will say about the Vietnam War and about the young people who are against that, or the people who served in that war? Because right now we think 1975 that was when the war ended. So, I think we have great books now. But I know the greatest books on World War II are coming out right now. 1:26:34 PC: Yeah, no, I think that- 1:26:35 SM: And so, we are still about 20 years away from probably the best books on Vietnam. What is your- 1:26:39 PC: Thoughts on? 1:26:42 SM: What do you think they will say, about the boomer’s impact on society? 1:26:49 PC: Well, I think so. I think they will say that. You know, maybe this is self-centered. Because I am a boomer was in the war? I think they will say that it was that it had one of the greatest impacts on the course of American history that it left the greatest imprint on an entire population of people. Of any event, you know, uh, since World War II and that was because it went on so long, you know, and it was it was just such a grinding experience for so many different Americans. And I think so many people were touched by it in many different ways. And I think it will be seen as a viewed as a, just a sort of a boiling cauldron of conflict and decentralization. Here we are, what 30 years, you know, 30 years later. And as I said, you still see people-people have not changed their views of the poor. I mean, it is-it is quite amazing. You are probably getting more appreciation for the for the soldiers who fought in it. And that will probably soften over time, and they will come to be viewed as agents of misguided government policy. But I think it will be the end up being viewed as misguided government policy. 1:28:46 SM: It is interesting, because it is amazing that all the years since the war ended, every conflict, every involvement, foreign policy. Vietnam always comes up and then of course, during the Bush administration, Bush number one talked about that, uh, the Gulf War or Vietnam, the Vietnam syndrome. And then President Reagan, when he came into the presidency, he wanted to end the Vietnam syndrome to pride in America. And it is interesting, but still, everything comes back. That is why I believe the building of this building in Washington, Vietnam Memorial that they are trying to do on top of the wall has to be built. Because eventually over time, the boomers will all pass away and the people will walk down there and they will people remember the experience, but by having the building there, the documents, the lessons of Vietnam cannot be lost. And that is why it is important why we do with the university is saying despite the fact that the oh c'mon is the past it is not past. 1:29:51 PC: No, I agree with that and look at it. I mean, I think it inform the debate about the first Persian Gulf War, I think it informed the debate about the Iraqi war. And, uh, you know, certainly it was the way that I viewed what was going to happen. And the difference in the way the wars were, the wars were carried out. You know, the military technology and the precision. I mean, I am good friends with Bob Kerry. Senator, former senator from Nebraska, the president of The New school, The New School, and he and I are social friends. And I was talking to him about it. He-he said, I mean, he was, he expressed all the advances in the military weaponry. And the fact that the moment any Iraqi soldier would, would fire a mortar round within-within moments, the location of that soldier could not be precisely plotted, what kind of weapon was fired? And within seconds after he fired that round, they could hit him using, you know, spies in the sky and I mean, you know, I mean my God, I mean it was just it is just amazing. We had what I thought was pretty I mean; I called an artillery and airstrikes a lot. And I was always sort of impressed at how precise they could be. But this was this is like, oh my god, it was underground gun. I do not think any and I do not think any at this point in time. So, there is a resurgence of pride in the ability of America to-to create this kind of military capability and it is, but it is a reflection, not just power and strength. It is a reflection of the ability in America to create [phone rings], you know, something that effective, you know? So, I do not think it is, uh. 1:32:09 SM: Last question and that is any final thoughts you have on the overall legacy of Vietnam and America? And getting back to the issue of healing because we you talk quite a bit on the healing within the veteran community. Where are we in America with respect to healing on the Vietnam War? So really, we are talking about the overall legacy of the boomers and the- where we stand as a nation in terms of healing over that war. 1:32:38 PC: I think it is a very, actually it is a very good question I-I found, I am going to give you a really candid answer, and I am sure that I am not alone as a Vietnam veteran, but I found myself after the First Gulf War and a little bit after this war, resenting the American, you know, the sort of the praise and the respect that America was giving to the soldiers who fought in those two wars. The first one because it was so brief. And the second one because it was so easy, you know, relatively easy. And-and the resentment comes from I mean, it is, it is, a it is, it is parallel. The dual feeling of resentment comes from the fact that American Vietnam veterans were so poorly treated upon their return in a war that was in again, we are all sort of self-centered, I guess, but the war that was fought under really- much more rugged conditions. The dual feeling was the feeling of pleasure and happiness, you know that the contradictory feelings were happiness that these veterans are being treated as heroes. And-and so I think that there is more healing to do I am guessing my feelings are not alone, you know, and I and I am not alone in my feeling-feeling that way. And most Vietnam veterans probably would not say that, but I think it is a real feeling and uh, but I am happy that the military has become a source of pride in America again. And not a source of scorn, even the most ardent antiwar activists could not, did not and have not attacked the capability of the military to carry out a mission. And so that is a source of great pride and should be a source of morale, you know, it within the armed forces. And, uh, and I think that is, I think that is good for America. So, the healing process has yet has-has further to go and I think the successful prosecution of these two wars is actually in the end. A net plus but it does underscore it does, it does remind some of us once again, about the tremendous, you know uh, disrespect that that we were shown on our return. 1:36:17 SM: Really good points, one- You are right on here because you talk about at least I have been around universities now all my life. There is only for about six years and no question that everybody this time regardless of the fact that you do not criticize the troops. 1:36:36 PC: That may be a lesson in Vietnam too. I think it is. 1:36:38 SM: I think it is and even Larry Davidson. Yeah. And it was-it was all George Bush. 1:36:44 PC: Mm hmm. Right. 1:36:44 SM: It is all the policymakers. And so, I think I am hoping that is to me, that is one of the lessons learned that cannot be lost. So never give the warrior you are serving and what is interesting made ball is the fact that I am amazed that our Vietnam veterans, for warriors can sit down with the warriors who fought on the other side. And the respect is there because they were called by their leaders to fight. There is no sense and hatred. Ongoing hatred should be a learning for the general public, forget. 1:37:25 PC: It is very interesting that you say that because I met in in Hanoi. I met the commander of the second NBA division, which was the division that had my company in one other surrounded in the Khoisan Valley in 1969. And he was there, and he was the commander of the whole division. And we talked, I mean, through interpreters, and we embraced, and I think we both were teary. And, you know, and I walked away, and I said to Patty, I said, he is just a man, you know, he is just a man just like me. I mean, it was, uh, [clears throat] and I-I have I have no anger or hatred left for the Vietnamese partly because they were so welcoming, you know when we came back. But I do still have resentment for Americans who are not respectful of the troops. And what that meant, by the way to those troops. I am not just talking about disrespect, I am talking about people whose lives were ruined, or damaged. You know, because they came back. Fortunately for me, I was a- you know, I was a college guy, you know, so I had the intellectual wherewithal to understand what was happening and rise above it in the course of my life. A lot of these kids who went straight from high school into this and then came back and were dissed and humiliated and-and you know, criticized and-and shunned, uh, you know, that had to hurt a lot of people, you know, and it was just-just so patently unfair. 1:39:09 SM: And I was at the Vietnam Memorial two years ago. I sat next to a gold star mother. She was not wearing her white outfit. She was there. And that was the day that John McDermott was sitting there prior to the ceremony. Mm hmm. And she said, my son's on the wall, right behind, farther back where John's singing. Can you take a picture? I have a picture of him. I took a couple of them. I did mail it to them. But she told me a story. They were from Penn State that she grew up. Right her son grew up and he was buried and came home. And she said she started crying and she said when my son was home for his funeral was near the Penn State campus and the students were kind of spitting on the cars as we are going into the cemetery again and that is the memory I have about my, my dead son was treated on his return to be buried. And to me that was an unbelievable anecdote, a memory that the books some of the books that I read that it is not that the veteran portrayed as bad as some people say, a bunch of garbage because I read, I have heard so many stories, even. Even the people in 436 in Westchester, John Morris, who the man who came up and shook your hand at Westchester, he was invited, uh, he was brought to the American Legion event. And they did not want him around. He was a Vietnam vet. When he first came back, he was young and so somebody invited him to an American Legion event. And then he also went to the Veterans of Foreign Wars and he was really not welcome there because he was a Vietnam vet. It was for Korean War veterans, World War II veterans, and he never felt he could not believe that feeling is stayed with him his whole life. Now he is a big person in the community now friends with everybody there and it has accepted now for Vietnam vets, but at that particular time, it was pretty quick and abrupt. 1:41:14 PC: It was- I will never forget it. I mean, I think that is why when I see antiwar, you know, my wife, you know, participates in antiwar protests and things and it, it is a- it is a sore point between and I-I have said to her, I just do not want to talk about with you mean, we are just going to, you do your thing, and I will do mine. But, you know, I just, I just cannot go there. So it is, and that is a result of the way I was treated and the way I know that a lot of my girls were treated and if I was treated that way, I mean, I you know-you know, I mean I was when I think about the kids who came back who were black, and how they must have been you know how they were treated, right. It is just amazing-amazing. 1:42:09 SM: Well Phil, there is a high school in Philadelphia in the largest number of African Americans killed in the war. 1:42:14 PC: Oh, really? 1:42:16 SM: Edison, Thomas Edison High School. Actually, I interviewed first interviewed the, uh, Hispanic principal. They are hired since you know, brother died in Vietnam. It is really interesting. The real bad section of town we are going over the nighttime. I guess that is it. 1:42:37 PC: All right. That is good. Thank you. 1:42:39 SM: Well, it is great. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paul Critchlow Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Critchlow, Paul ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Bank of America; Journalism—Political aspects; Press secretaries; Critchlow, Paul--Interviews Description An account of the resource Paul Critchlow is a Vietnam veteran with years of experience in government, finance, and journalism. Critchlow retired from the Bank of America as the head of communications and public affairs. Previously, he served as the chief political writer for the Philadelphia Inquirer and then as press secretary to Pennsylvania Governor Dick Thornburgh. Critchlow has a Bachelor's degree from the University of Nebraska, Omaha and a Master's degree from Columbia University. Paul Critchlow served in Vietnam and he considers this experience the watershed event in his life. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003-05-28 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.9a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.9b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-01 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 102:40 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/423e87f8bfae7806ac0e316e94f3a76d.mp3 15a0b316ed6ea0047dfbb5e3363f9fdd https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/93eb503df4ac2d95351465398ea29a3f.jpg 0d9768e557072696819bb8bdc5c8e968 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-03-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Paul Ginsburg and Gail Ginsburg Year of Graduation 1965 and 1968 Biographical Text Paul Ginsburg, Ph.D. is the director, USC-Brookings Schaeffer Initiative for Health Policy and the Leonard D. Schaeffer Chair in Health Policy Studies, The Brookings Institution; and Professor of Health Policy and Director of Public Policy, Schaeffer Center for Health Policy and Economics, University of Southern California. He also worked at the Rand Corporation, the Congressional Budget Office (1978-84), wrote policies that informed Hillary Clinton's health policy and founded the Center for Studying Health System Change. Gail Ginsburg is a microbiologist with the grants office at the National Institutes of Health. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in health policy; Harpur College – Alumni at University of Southern California; Harpur College – Alumni at the Brookings Institution; Harpur College – Alumni at the Rand Corporation; Harpur College – Alumni at the U.S. Congressional Budget Office; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institutes of Health Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in health policy; Harpur College – Alumni at University of Southern California; Harpur College – Alumni at the Brookings Institution; Harpur College – Alumni at the Rand Corporation; Harpur College – Alumni at the U.S. Congressional Budget Office; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institutes of Health Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Paul B. Ginsburg and Gail T. Ginsburg Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 12 March 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 -ask you to introduce yourselves and just say, when you were born, what years you attended Binghamton, and what we are doing here. PG: 00:14 Okay. IG: 00:16 Where we are. PG: 00:17 Yeah, I am Paul. I am Paul Ginsburg, and I was born in 1945 graduated from Binghamton, which we called Harpur College, then in 1965 so I was very much a youngster, as many of my peers from New York City were at that time. GG: 00:42 And I am Gail Ginsburg. I was born in 1948 and I graduated in 1968 also it was Harpur College at that point, and I think that is all right. IG: 01:01 So, what-what are we doing here? PG: 01:03 Oh, sure. And we are being interviewed by Irene Gashurov- IG: 01:09 Yes. PG: 01:10 -who's doing--what do you call it? IG: 01:12 Oral history. PG: 01:13 Oral history of the college in the 1960s. GG: 01:18 Of which we have some experience. [laughter] IG: 01:23 Alright, so Paul, let us begin with you. So just tell us a little bit about where you grew up. You mentioned New York, who your parents were, you know, what-what, whether they encouraged you to go to college, PG: 01:39 Yeah. Well, so I did grow up in New York, New York City, in the Bronx, and there was never any discussion about going to college. It was assumed. And I assumed it as well. I was very intrigued about the idea of going away to college, which perhaps is a reason that I wound up going to Harpur rather than one of the city university colleges in New York City. IG: 02:11 So, your parents- PG: 02:12 Oh, and sorry, you know, my parents were native born. They were- their parents were immigrants, and my father was an administrator in the New York City government. And my mother, I think by that point, had been working also in the New York City government. I think she went back to work when my brother and I were in high school. IG: 02:44 I am curious. Where were the immigrants from? PG: 02:48 Oh, Russia. PG: 02:48 From Russia. PG: 02:49 But not my parents. Their-their parents. IG: 02:51 They were [inaudible]. I understand your grandparents. Do you know where? PG: 02:56 Yeah, I think I know my father's family came from Belarus, what today is called Belarus. IG: 03:03 It was a Russian Empire. PG: 03:04 That is right. IG: 03:07 And you Gail, where did you grow up? Who your parents were, you know? GG: 03:14 So, I grew up on Staten Island in one of the boroughs of New York City. I went to high school in Manhattan, so I had a long commute to high school. My parents were from New Jersey, and their families went back a long time. I have relatives who lived in Rahway in going back to the early 1800s but they moved to Staten Island because they had a business opportunity. They bought a small business, and just before my father was drafted into World War Two, and my mom stayed and worked the whole business during the war. And so, I was raised, probably by the original feminist. They were not college educated, but they- there was no question we were going to college. My sister, who's older, went to college, and it seemed like a good experience. So, it was never a question I was going to go to college. IG: 04:20 So why did you decide on Harpur College? GG: 04:29 Well- IG: 04:31 What was the reputation that you knew of Harpur College at the time? GG: 04:35 I would not say there was a lot of decision in that. My family was pretty unsophisticated when it came to understanding about colleges compared to the knowledge that Paul and I have now. It is probably shared with our children. You just applied where a guidance counselor thought you had a chance to get in. And in some of the places I applied to, I was not accepted in. I was first year of the baby booms, and so there were a lot of surprises that year on acceptances, and Harpur just seemed like a very good choice. Some of the other choices I had were very expensive, and my father had just lost a lot of money, so he was really happy for me to go to Harpur. IG: 05:25 Well, it is maybe too personal to ask how he lost a lot of money. GG: 05:29 He was a businessman. IG: 05:32 Okay, [inaudible] GG: 05:33 He was not necessarily low risk kind of person. He had his company, and he retained that, but he had invested a lot of money in a-a process that-that coated fabric, and this- his friend of his had a patent on it, and they started their business, and they were really out competed by DuPont. It was pretty hard for them to get muscle into that market. So, he lost a fair amount of money at that point, and it was just before I was that year and a half before I started college. But we were not impoverished. [crosstalk] PG: 06:15 I went to Harpur because I mentioned I wanted to be in a residential school, and just given my sense of what the tuition would be, even with scholarships at private universities, the tuition difference was very large. And my parents were a fairly modest income and-and I was impressed with Harpur's reputation. The fact that it was a small liberal arts college was attractive to me. IG: 06:52 Did you visit it before your first semester? PG: 06:56 No. IG: 06:57 And, yeah-yeah. So, what were some of your first impressions when you two city kids came to this very rural place? GG: 06:57 No. GG: 07:07 Well, my sister went to Elmira college, so I was already familiar with the southern tier, so it did not surprise me that much. The one thing that surprised me was that it was kind of far out of town. It was like a suburban location, and I was sort of surprised at that, especially since few of us had cars, it was kind of isolating. PG: 07:32 Yeah, I would say that, you know, I knew it was going to be somewhat rural, well, not really rural, but just in a small city location. It did not disappoint me. I did not expect to have much time for taking advantage of the location. I expected to be really mostly involved in both work and campus social activities, so I never had that much interest, actually, of getting off campus, because so much was there on the campus. IG: 08:09 Did you anticipate what type of social activities these would be, just kind of hanging out with other young people or? PG: 08:17 Yeah, being with other people. There was, at least at that time, a lot of culture was brought to the campus, you know, concerts, movies, actually, there seemed to be plenty to do. I was not as focused on food as I am now. So, the fact that the food was going to be awful, and was truly awful, and that they were no convenient restaurants right nearby did not factor in. IG: 08:49 So-so what was your program of study? What-what did you major in? PG: 08:55 Oh, well, I started out as a math major, but had an interest in economics. And when I got to the- guess, my fourth math course in, say, the spring of my sophomore year, that is when I decided that math was not for me, and I, you know, was well along in economics and decided that is what I would do. IG: 09:26 So, what- who were, you know, maybe some of the faculty that made an impression on you, what-what changed you from wanting to pursue math as a as a subject of study to economics? PG: 09:44 Well, that is hard to say. I mean, it is- I did have an outstanding initial math teacher, perhaps for the full year and a half calculus sequence. And but there is nothing wrong with it. Teacher after that, it was a striking change in the nature of the subjects to highly theoretical mathematics, whereas the first three semesters were quite practical. Same, you know, an engineer might have taken that course, not that there were engineering students at Harpur at the time, so I always characterize it as just seeing what at least the math major was conceived of at Harpur. And, you know, did not find that engaging. I think I had a very good- all the freshmen took a social science course at the time which exposed them to all of the social sciences. And when they were sophomores, they actually took an introductory course in selected social science. And both my social science course and gone very well. I kind of remember the instructor was a young man with a dashing silver streak in his hair. And we used to refer to him students as the Silver Streak. But he was, you know, charismatic teacher. And so, in a sense, then I began the regular economics course. I enjoyed that a great deal. IG: 11:26 So, what appealed to you about economics? How did it open vistas for you- your understanding of the world? PG: 11:34 Yeah, I just found the subject matter very engaging. And, you know, sticking with economics and becoming a professional economist, I think the thing now, I could think of it as the ability to, you know, think very analytically and to understand an economy and how things impact. It just very engaging all the time. IG: 12:04 But nothing-nothing particular and nothing, nothing you know, a gem of insight does not stand out from those years that you all of a sudden, because of this course of study, something began to make sense. Your apprehension of the world changed. No, it was not like that. PG: 12:24 No, I think it was just, it was a subject I had not been exposed to high school. IG: 12:29 Yeah. PG: 12:31 There are high school economics courses these days. I do not know how successful they are, but it was just-just finding the subject matter very engaging. IG: 12:40 Right-right. Any so, any professors in economics that you would like to mention as having a particular impact? PG: 12:50 Yeah, I would say the it was Professor John Latourette. Actually, I liked a lot of the faculty. It was Latourette, too. I do not remember if I took the introductory course from him or not, but I know he was my advisor, and as a senior, actually did some research with him and-and I remember some Alfred Carlip was, you know, very good professor, someone named, I think, Leiman [Melvin Leiman], where the subject matter of the course was not that interesting, but I liked him. So, there were a lot of engaging professors there at the time. Cannot think of anyone I did not like. Oh, and then, actually, the professor at my senior seminar, his name is Vucasin [Peter Vukasin], was an outstanding teacher and helped me decide which graduate school to go to. IG: 13:59 And where did you go? PG: 14:01 I went to Harvard. And what he told me is that, see, I had gotten into all that I had applied to, all in the same day that I had been awarded a Woodrow Wilson Fellowship, which, at that time used to have money attached to it, and so they all accepted me, since I had my own money. IG: 14:22 So where did you get where else did you get accepted? PG: 14:25 Oh, I think Yale, Johns, Hopkins, those are the ones I remember. IG: 14:30 Why did you choose Harvard? I mean- PG: 14:33 Well, what Vukasin said to me is that, in a sense, "You do not have very specific, defined interests. Go to Harvard. You like Cambridge," and I guess that was pretty good advice. IG: 14:48 And so, did you do a PhD, or? PG: 14:50 Yes, what I should tell you, I am sure you have heard it from some others, is that I would much rather have worked as an economist after college to see what it was like. IG: 15:02 Right. PG: 15:04 I did not expect to be an academic and but you know, that was better than being drafted. IG: 15:12 Right. PG: 15:14 Reason I got a PhD is both learning that the-the top programs in economics did not bother with master's programs. What I found actually at Harvard is that the master's degree was what was given to the students that the PhD students who were not going to make it- PG: 15:40 To the PhD. PG: 15:41 -to PhD level. So, in a sense, and there were, there is a lot of scholarship money for PhD programs, nothing for master's programs at lesser universities. So, I got into a PhD program. IG: 15:59 Gail, did you, you know, were you married at the time, or what-what? GG: 16:07 No. IG: 16:07 Okay, so let us, let us trace back to your course of study at Binghamton, and what you know, why you chose the major that you did and what faculty made a particular impression on your formation? If you, if you can say that GG: 16:29 Sure, I started out as initially as a science major. I was interested in biology or chemistry, I was not sure, and so I started the introductory--the initial years of requirements are pretty similar between those two majors. So, I started those programs, and then I also in taking your distribution requirements, found that I really liked literature, and so I was taking, kind of following this path for the first two years, of taking trying to meet my distribution requirements, but also taking my science and then I would take extra literature courses as I could fit them in, and there was always a competition between the two. But in the sense that I- in my comparative anatomy class, I think it was Professor Landry [Stuart O. Landry] was the professor, and he saw my notebook and realized that I could sketch. And so, he had me- I did some illustrations for him. And it was a lot of fun. IG: 17:50 What kind of illustrations? GG: 17:51 They were anatomical. In those days, most biology was very descriptive. IG: 17:55 Right. GG: 17:56 So, it was skulls, all different kinds of skulls. He was, I guess, doing comparative analysis of the evolution of the- these different animals. And it was very interesting, because I had kind of a distant, not-not very much, not a firm relative, but very distant one who was a medical illustrator, and so I had actually seen some of his work, and he- so there was this one side with me, doing art and science, and then the other side was the literature professor at the same time, Robert Kroetsch, who was a writer, novelist, and he was a fantastic professor, and he kept urging me to major in literature. So, I had these competing interests, and I- there are two things that made me really made literature actually went out in the end, and that was that I did not know what I was going to do with a science major. I did not think that I wanted to go to medical school, and absolutely all my classmates in my science classes were highly competitive, all wanting to get to medical school and make it killing financially, they were not fun to be classmates with, and I just did not think that that was going to be the thing for me. I knew that there was a very strong prejudice against women in the science in those days, it was hard, it was hard, to see a path forward, and literature was so much fun, and I did not think that far in advance. I do not think I planned that much in those days. I think that is the disadvantage of starting college at 16. You know, you were still a high school kid. IG: 19:57 Yes. GG: 19:58 Basically, you do not really have, uh, the social sense, or the drive. IG: 20:02 Right. GG: 20:03 That is someone who's been out more. GG: 20:05 The only drive I knew was that I had to finish college because my parents would be mortally just so opposed to my dropping out of college. And I never thought about it. I really liked college material, and I actually used to like studying for finals, because it kind of was a way to kind of pull together a whole body of information. And I am someone who- IG: 20:05 Of course. IG: 20:30 In literature you like, or any subject? GG: 20:33 Any subject, yeah, I just found that I am not good at the little details. I am really good at putting together patterns. And somehow patterns fell into place studying for a final. So, I had this overview that I always felt gave me more understanding, at least the best that I could at that point, I was not the most dedicated student also going to laugh at that. And so, you know, if I could get away with not working that hard, I certainly would. And I spent a lot of time off campus because I found Binghamton very boring. So, I have spent a lot of time up in Ithaca. IG: 21:13 Yeah. So, you had a car, or somebody- GG: 21:16 I had a friend who had a car, yeah, and the two of us would just go roaming. We had a great time, and I do not know. So eventually I did become a literature major, be more, because I just did not know what I was going to do. And in those days, you could graduate from college, and that was sufficient to get a job, PG: 21:36 A good job. IG: 21:38 A good job. Yeah. GG: 21:40 And so, but so that is basically what I did. And I would say those two professors were very influential on me. Of all professors I had, first of all, because I still remember their names, that means something. And they just all took a personal interest in me, and that I thought was, I did not know if that was a feature of college in general, or just maybe that is an aspect of being a relatively small school as it was at that time, but I appreciated that because you did not feel anonymous at all. IG: 22:19 Did they invite you to their homes? Did you have any extra [crosstalk] curricular activities with them? Did they have dinners or? GG: 22:29 Actually, there was a third professor that, I think back on it. He was, I think he had invited me to his house. I remember he had these fancy pigeons in the cage in his kitchen. They were really quite spectacular, and his wife was wonderful. Dr. Landry, I think he gave me a ride somewhere. I mean, they were nice people- IG: 22:52 Nice people. GG: 22:55 But it was not like I felt like I socialized with them. IG: 22:58 Right. Were there any stars that you remember in the English Department? GG: 23:03 Well, I think Kroetsch was. He left the university around the time I was graduating, or he was on leave. I do not know if he actually came back or not. He was Canadian. I think he eventually went up to Canada again. IG: 23:21 Did you take part- I am just curious, what-what, so what-what path did your career take? GG: 23:28 Oh, that is the interesting part. I kept circling back to science, no matter how I turned. That is what I wound up in. So, what is the job I get when I finish college? I interview to be a secretary. Because remember, in those days, they used to have two lines at employment offices, the men went the executive route and the women went the secretarial so I being ignorant. I just did what they said. And during my interview, woman said, "You are not going to be happy being a secretary," and I wound up in the in designing circuit boards at a small engineering company in Boston. IG: 24:15 How did that happen? From secretarial to was it your science degree? [crosstalk] How did you decide circuit boards? GG: 24:22 I did not. IG: 24:22 I could not. GG: 24:22 I did not. She just decided, for me, she knew that. I guess she must have been aware of what jobs were open, and I did not have, you did not have to be an engineer. IG: 24:33 Right. GG: 24:33 You just have to understand components and tolerances, and they can teach you that. And the engineers were in offices down the hallway. But what I did was it was like a puzzle. I mean, it is like they paid me to do puzzles. It was so much fun. IG: 24:46 And what was the what was the time and company, and? GG: 24:50 Oh, do you remember the name of the company? PG: 24:53 Yeah, [inaudible] GG: 24:54 Is it? GG: 24:55 Yeah, I think they made equipment for testing, for quality control. PG: 24:59 Yeah-yeah, I cannot think of [crosstalk] GG: 25:01 [crosstalk] anything right now. I only worked there for a few months, and then my father was- who had been ill most of my life, was really ill, and my mom wanted me to move back home, which I did, so then I came home and helped her run the family business after my dad passed away. PG: 25:22 You know, one thing I have been mentioning thinking about since we talked before about, and Gail mentioned being young. This was a major thing, because, you know, almost all of the students from New York City, which might have been half of the student body, were young, and so it really, I think it limited how much they got out of college. It limited the kind of activities they sought out, maybe even limited them intellectually, like when I think of it, my fourth semester, all of a sudden, I started doing--I was doing okay, but I started doing very well, and that continued throughout, probably just a matter of maturity. IG: 26:09 It was a matter of maturity, did you say? PG: 26:11 Yeah, probably a matter of just maturity. IG: 26:13 Yeah, that is that is an interesting observation. I have also thought that in my life as well, that at a certain point you either read- reach a critical mass. But it does have to do with maturity and yet, and yet, you know you were. I mean, there are prodigies at a young age, and you already had a sense of the direction that you wanted to take in math, and then you switched to economics, so you had the intellectual wherewithal to pursue that too. PG: 26:51 Well, there are different interpretations. You could say, well, maybe if he was more maturing- IG: 26:55 Yeah, he would do more. PG: 26:56 -would have handled math differently. IG: 26:59 So-so do you think that the, you know, well, I mean- PG: 27:03 I do not think that was the case. I do not think, looking back, that was actually the case. IG: 27:07 Yeah. PG: 27:08 They were just saying that there are possibilities of students who went different directions, perhaps because they were quite young, IG: 27:16 Yeah. PG: 27:17 That might have, might not have been the best for them. IG: 27:20 Right. So- GG: 27:23 I think, I think there are always aspects, [inaudible] in an environment that influences you. Just as I was saying that I did not know how I could have a path forward for science job in just pure chemistry, say, I think that is a reality at that time, it would have been very difficult, and so that had nothing to do with my age, but there is all these other external factors that one processes as you go through. PG: 27:53 but I actually think that my young age, unlike you, my young age, made me quite satisfied with campus life in a way that you were not. IG: 28:03 So, what did you do? I mean, campus life, how was it, how was it fun? PG: 28:09 Well, in a sense, it was, first of all, I was not home. IG: 28:11 Yes. PG: 28:13 I had all these friends, you know, right nearby. You know, could get together with them, quickly, or, you know, without spending a lot of time traveling. I mentioned before there were all these events going on that were, and many of these events were, you know, very important to me. You know, being exposed to foreign movies, being exposed to jazz performers and quartets. There was a quartet [crosstalk] quartet. IG: 28:47 And what do you remember, any of the musicians, any of the- PG: 28:53 Oh, some of the jazz musicians. IG: 28:54 Where did they perform? At the student union or there was an auditorium. PG: 28:58 There was an auditorium, there was an auditorium, and then in some cases it was the gym, which is somewhat bigger, but the most of it in the auditorium. You know, as well as student productions and so you know, between the people, and you know, people were in social clubs, which was, you know, really, just for parties- GG: 29:30 And for men. PG: 29:32 Well, there was some women's clubs, were not there-- much less probably. IG: 29:36 What were the clubs that you were in? PG: 29:38 I was in [inaudible]. IG: 29:39 What is that? PG: 29:41 It is just a Greek name. [laughter] GG: 29:44 [crosstalk] national fraternities. PG: 29:47 No-no, they were not. They were, they were all specific to Harpur and really just another social you know, to some extent, like fraternities, but people I-I remember, actually, you know, we got together for parties, but also just sometimes, just the older people would, you know, take the group out to a bar and, you know, just to drink beer on a Friday night. IG: 30:22 Well, that is, I mean, that is fun, especially when you are, you know- PG: 30:27 When you were 16- IG: 30:28 -when you were 16 is, you know, it was an entry into adulthood. PG: 30:32 That is right. IG: 30:33 Would you, would you imagine adulthood to be. So-so, you know, so you were having fun and socializing and participating in clubs, but it was also the time of Vietnam. PG: 30:49 No. IG: 30:50 It was before Vietnam, because- PG: 30:52 I was there, before Vietnam [crosstalk] IG: 30:54 Before it affected your-your- PG: 30:56 Yeah, Vietnam was not very prominent. IG: 30:59 It was not very so, so there was not a fear of the draft, or- PG: 31:03 I mean, there was not, I mean, definitely. Well, I remember, actually, not that far, long before I graduated, because of Vietnam getting started, there was a change in draft policy. IG: 31:14 How did it change? PG: 31:16 It used to be that, you know, I think they started maybe exempting fathers, and that meant they were drafting more of other people. You know, I do not remember the details now, but the bottom line was that I was, oh, I know what it was, is that they were not drafting men until they were 23, 24 and there was a policy to exempt fathers. And by exempting fathers, the draft age for the non-fathers fell. So, in a sense, it would be, and it fallen down to 20 or 21 perhaps. So, it meant that. So, it was not like there was all this anti-war, although I think the war was becoming unpopular then, and there probably were some activities in my last year, but it was just a matter of, oh, I am going to be drafted. I do not want that. IG: 32:12 So, I mean, for you, it is kind of a moot point, because you were determined to go on to your graduate- PG: 32:22 No. IG: 32:22 -studies anyway. PG: 32:23 No. IG: 32:23 No. PG: 32:24 No, I would not have gone to graduate school. IG: 32:26 You would not have gone. PG: 32:27 No. IG: 32:27 I see. PG: 32:28 Maybe later. IG: 32:29 Maybe later. GG: 32:32 When, in the end, he was so young when he graduated. For graduate school, he was still eligible. IG: 32:39 Right. GG: 32:40 So, he [inaudible] two years. IG: 32:45 So, he- PG: 32:46 Yeah, so I was in had a commission in the Public Health Service to meet my service obligation. IG: 32:53 Oh, and where was that? And what? What nature of service was it? PG: 32:59 Oh, I was used interchangeably with federal civil servants in Rockville, that but as a commission as Lieutenant Commander in the Public Health Service. GG: 33:13 But he had a low enough number in the lottery, he would have been drafted for the army. IG: 33:17 That is terrible. PG: 33:18 Yeah. IG: 33:21 So did the war- I mean, did you come from a liberal or conservative background? Did the war change your thinking in any way about politics, about- PG: 33:35 Yeah, I would call them. I would say came from a moderate democratic background. And the, you know, the war was not popular there with me. But you know, this did not come from an environment that was going to go out and demonstrate an- and that is not me either. IG: 34:04 That is not you either. [laughter] GG: 34:14 As far as the war, my parents were both staunch Republicans. I did not pay any attention to politics, particularly. But it was interesting that as the war progressed, when my father had passed away, so I do not know if he would have evolved in this in this area, but my mom started to become strong anti-war person. So, it was interesting how as a moderate Republican, she moved very strongly against that position over time, because she remembered World War Two, when my father was in the army for three years, fighting in European front. And she thought it was horrible. I mean, she just really hated war and so that so for people who had that World War Two experience, not everyone came through saying, you know, waving the flag all the time, even if they were conservative. So that is that was a deal breaker for her. IG: 35:20 Yeah, it must have affected you to have your mother, to see your mother evolve. GG: 35:27 I thought it was interesting. I, you know, I my mother and I are very independent people, and I do not have any difficulty being with people who have a different opinion, political opinion. I was used to it. There was a range of political views, few points in my extended family, and it was I was comfortable with that. It did not matter to me so much. I thought it was a big deal for her to change, because I thought there was a lot of pressure among conservatives to kind of hold down the fort and keep to the position. So, I thought it just indicated to me that she was independent in how she viewed things. One thing I had not mentioned before when you were asking me about my profession, is that when I circled back for my first job being in science, I also came back to science again later on, when I did go to graduate school with science. IG: 36:35 In science? GG: 36:36 Yeah, I have a master's degree in molecular biology, and I have worked at NIH for many years. I am now retired from it, so I science has won me over in the end. IG: 36:52 And so, so when did you when did you make that decision to go into- GG: 36:58 After our children were starting elementary school, I went back to graduate school. IG: 37:03 I see. GG: 37:04 I went to graduates school. IG: 37:07 Wonderful. PG: 37:07 Tell the story of the course you took at UCLA, GG: 37:11 Oh UCLA, yeah, yeah, yeah, IG: 37:13 UCLA? GG: 37:15 Yeah. We were in- IG: 37:16 Los Angeles. PG: 37:17 Yeah. Actually, I had joined the RAND Corporation, and said volunteer to in Washington, but it volunteered to spend a year in Santa Monica. So, the family did that. And so that is why we were in Los Angeles, and Gail took a course. IG: 37:37 When were you in Los Angeles? PG: 37:38 (19)84, (19)85. IG: 37:38 (19)84, (19)85. GG: 37:41 Yeah. And you know, when you are home with two young children, the only thing you keep hearing is the dripping away of all your [inaudible]. So, I was always looking for something that would be sort of an intellectual stimulus. As much as I loved being home with my kids, you just cannot do it 100 percent there is no one normal. And so, I- PG: 38:08 Of course, they were both in school. GG: 38:10 Yeah, and so I was able to take a course. I actually took it at night, so it just did not matter about their school schedule. And it was just eye opening because I began to see the whole field of molecular biology had started up in the interim, and whereas biology before was just constant memorization, classification and structural and physiology stuff, and I did not find that that compelling, which is why I was more attracted to chemistry, because it is a little bit more overview general approaches. But molecular biology was chemistry brought to biology. And so that is so it suddenly opened my eyes. I said I could do this. This is like, IG: 38:56 What, why do you think that the field opened up because of the advent of technology? GG: 39:05 There are tipping points in every field where you get new techniques that come up that suddenly allow people to have insight in areas, they never had access to before. And so, it was the early work of the bacteriologists and they were beginning to understand and manipulate the genes in that simple bacteria and be able to show how it- they created a whole metabolism chart, and the early work of the nutritionist in biochemistry opened up this field. That opened it up in biochemistry, but the biochemists really added, brought this whole dimension and to into biology. And then when you couple that with sequencing and the understanding of DNA, which was not well elucidated. Back when I was in college, you knew that it existed, but there was so much that you did not know that allowed manipulations with it and that just-just broke open the door. IG: 40:15 So-so in your job at the NIH what-what was your focus? What-what did you do? GG: 40:23 Well, I worked for in graduate school, there with a bacteriologist, geneticist, and then after I finished graduate school, I-I had a full-time position, got a full-time position for about, I guess, about seven, eight years, maybe eight years, I was in Alan's lab, and it was a basic science lab. I worked in a small model organism called dictyostelium discoid, and we studied aspects of signal transduction, which is just, how do you how does this organism take surface signals and have create changes inside and- IG: 41:11 Just explain for the audience, why is understanding signaling so important to biochemistry? GG: 41:25 Oh, well, it is very in some ways we never knew. Part of it is playing around and experimenting. But the theory was that if we understood how we could manipulate signals on the surface, which could be anything like a drug can come in and clog up a pathway, but being able to understand the internal workings of the cell, you- they were, it was very reductionist in those days, so they were really trying to, we were really trying to understand how a cell actually works. And we thought with something very simple, you could understand, in this case, how do these cells begin to move from being single cells to aggregating with other single cells and become, and in fact, a whole new organism and the fruiting body and make a complete transformation and this organism. If we could understand this, how this organism works, well, maybe would understand how tumors come together, or other aspects that have relate to human disease or human function. So that is part of that makes sense. IG: 42:42 Fascinating. Yes-yes. PG: 42:44 Irene, just, I just love to talk. I am sorry, watch, and I realized this joint interview is not working for me, because I have to be, you know, on-on a call. IG: 42:54 When? PG: 42:55 4:30. IG: 42:55 Or. okay, all right, so let us focus on you. [crosstalk] Actually, I am- I found it very interesting what you had to say, and I had some exposure to what you were describing. I am sorry. So, Paul, tell us about your work for the just-just the evolution of your career. You worked at the RAND, you worked at you were working currently at the Brookings Institute. So, tell us, tell us, you know the progression this- PG: 43:41 Oh sure. IG: 43:41 Yes. PG: 43:42 Yes. Well, actually, when I had finished, when I was in graduate school, I became very interested in policy. Actually, I got into healthcare in graduate school, an interesting route of finishing coursework, not being ready to start a thesis and working for a consulting firm which sent me to Nova Scotia to help the provincial governments technical assistance. I won't get into what it was for, but that changed my interests and decided I wanted to do something and applied micro economics, and chose health because that was one of the two areas that Harvard was very strong in. So-so anyway, I started pursuing health care as I was preparing to write a dissertation. Got a dissertation topic in healthcare, and then was going to go into policy. Actually, had a job with the New York City governments. Very attractive job, which I thought that would be a. Was suitable for a draft deferral. Turned out not to be. So, I was found by an enterprising person that in the Department of Health, Education and Welfare, it was named then- IG: 45:15 In New York? PG: 45:16 No in Washington, who you know, had realized that he could use commissioned officers in the Public Health Service interchangeably with regular civil servants. And had recruited, when I was there, about 30 men who were there with two-year commissions. IG: 45:41 Right. PG: 45:43 So that is what I did. Basically, I was- it was doing program officer work which I did not particularly care for, which led me to decide, well, you know, you did not think you wanted to become an academic, but if you this would be the time to do it. So, then I went to Michigan State as an assistant professor there. IG: 46:16 What year was that in the- PG: 46:20 That was 1972 and was reasonably happy there, but not that engaged and was recruited by Duke, which seemed like a more exciting place. It was. IG: 46:37 It was. PG: 46:37 But it was not enough. IG: 46:38 It was not enough. PG: 46:40 So, I took a leave from Duke to join the Congressional Budget Office- IG: 46:47 Oh, wow. PG: 46:48 -which was willing to hire me into a permanent job rather than a visitor. IG: 46:53 Right. PG: 46:55 Knowing I was on leave from the University, and I never went back. IG: 47:02 So, the Congressional Budget Office. What was so exciting- I mean, apart from being in the thick of things? PG: 47:09 Being in the thick of things, you know, doing work that you know, congressional committee staff thought that they needed- as and, you know, being in the policy world. IG: 47:27 So, so just feeling that you have a direct impact on the course of politics? PG: 47:34 Policy. IG: 47:35 Policy. PG: 47:36 That is right. IG: 47:37 So, what- so-so just give us, you know, some of the highlights of your career. I mean, what, what policies did you create that came to. came to light, came to materialize, and what, what effect did they have on launching? PG: 48:02 It was probably best to say policies I was involved in developing, and not claim credit for the policies these change in the way Medicare paid hospitals. That was probably the most impactful thing during my CBO days. There were other policies that I had a role in at later jobs. IG: 48:27 In later jobs. PG: 48:30 In later jobs. IG: 48:31 So how long were you at the Congressional Budget Office? PG: 48:34 Six years. IG: 48:35 Six years. That is from 197- PG: 48:39 8 to 1984. IG: 48:43 And then what happened? PG: 48:48 Yes, and then I actually started getting bored there. Joined the RAND Corporation, which is a think tank. IG: 48:58 I know, I know. PG: 48:59 Yeah, you know, started, you know, to doing analysis for the Air Force, but with a significant domestic program, particularly in health care. IG: 49:10 Particularly? PG: 49:10 In health care. IG: 49:11 In health care, where the Air Force? PG: 49:16 Yeah, there was- Rand was actually initiated by the Air Force. IG: 49:24 So- PG: 49:25 In the 1940s. IG: 49:26 In the 1940s. I did not know that. I lived in Los Angeles. I worked for a university. So of course, you know, but I did not know the Air Force origins. So, you were there for a year? PG: 49:42 Well, I was with Rand for two years. You know, one was in Santa Monica and one was in Washington. And then a congressional Commission was created where Congress wanted, uh, set up a commission to come up with a policy to revamp physician payments in the Medicare program, and I was recruited to be executive director of that commission. Easiest job decision ever to do that so-so that is what I did, starting in 1986. IG: 50:33 So revamped physician payment? PG: 50:36 Payments in Medicare. IG: 50:37 So, did this, did this revision benefit physicians or patients? PG: 50:47 Well, hopefully both, but it was, it benefited some physicians at the expense of other physicians. It just changed the structure of payments as to rewarding visits more highly than procedures, whether I doubt it affected patients that much, except very indirectly. And so that was the commission was very successful because Congress enacted legislation based on the commission's proposals in 1989 and which still functions to this day, so does the hospital payment system. IG: 51:45 So, you actually had a hand in creating policies for- PG: 51:51 Yes, for physician payments. IG: 51:54 That is right for hospital. PG: 51:55 I mentioned the hospital before IG: 51:58 Yes. PG: 51:59 That was when I was at CBO, I had a bigger influence on the physician payment because of actually drawing up the proposal. IG: 52:18 So, we have either you to thank or- PG: 52:22 That is right [crosstalk]. That was a role. IG: 52:27 Yeah. PG: 52:28 Then [crosstalk] I was Medicare, yeah, that was all Medicare. But, yeah, but Medicare, what we did, influenced the rest of the payment system immediately, almost. Then I started a think tank at the invitation to the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. IG: 52:49 Oh wow. [inaudible] PG: 52:54 The Center for Studying Health System change. IG: 52:57 That is tremendous. So, tell us about this work. PG: 53:09 Yes, well, that actually involved extensive data collection. The vision on the part of the foundation for this was that this was when President Clinton and Hillary Clinton were, you know, developing a proposal to reform the health care system, which today sometimes referred to as Hillary care. And there was concern that the federal government was not adequately prepared to monitor how healthcare was changing under that reform, and it wanted to fund research to augment what the federal government would-would be doing. Now, of course, the reform did not pass, but the Foundation decided to go forward anyway, because it perceived the health care system on its own was changing very quickly. IG: 54:19 Just-just expand on that last point so, um- PG: 54:24 Well, there were new organizations being created, right new types of physician organizations. Hospitals were acquiring other hospitals and insurance products were changing. So, there was, you know, with managed care was becoming very important. So that was the motivation. And this think tank, the center, you know, conducted surveys of households and physicians. And-and but what it was best known for was conducting extensive site visits in 12 representative metropolitan areas involved interviewing leaders, and, you know, different sectors of the healthcare system and-and sectors that interacted with the health care system, like employers. IG: 55:28 So, which-which health care systems did you interview? PG: 55:36 Well, so-so in a typical- IG: 55:37 Several-several. PG: 55:38 -market it would be, you know, maybe two or three hospitals, if there were physician organizations, either multi-specialty groups or what was called an Independent Practice Association, they were interviewed insurance companies--I mean health insurance companies. What else the state Medicaid program advocates for-for health care for the poor. We interviewed local journalists who covered health care. IG: 56:18 The Wall Street Journal or? PG: 56:19 No, local journalists. IG: 56:20 Local journalists. PG: 56:21 You know what, journalists with the local newspaper that were the healthcare specialists. IG: 56:31 So, what were- what was the result of these findings in terms of change in direction of- PG: 56:43 Well, I think people-people understood what was going on in the healthcare system a lot better than they had before. IG: 56:51 Yeah. PG: 56:51 You know, I cannot point to something that they did because they were better informed. Interestingly, there was a lot always interest in those 12 sites, those 12 metropolitan areas, in finding out how they were different from other places around the country. IG: 57:13 So, these findings came to light in which form, you know- PG: 57:19 In numerous- IG: 57:21 I am not familiar with the world of Washington or policy making and so yeah. PG: 57:27 And numerous publications. IG: 57:29 Yes, numerous publications, so- PG: 57:31 Publications and media interviews. Well, I mean many of the publications, some were articles in peer reviewed journals like health affairs or the New England Journal of Medicine. Many were just, you know, issue briefs, research briefs, published on our website. PG: 57:51 And they had a very big list. You had a very big- PG: 57:55 Oh yeah, you know, 10,000 people, you know, received emails when new publications were released. IG: 58:06 So, you know who accessed this- what kind of people accessed this information? PG: 58:13 Well, I would say both people, state, federal policy, worlds, people in industry. IG: 58:20 Right. PG: 58:20 You know, hospital executives, insurance executives, you know, physician groups. They were the audience. We did not write them for the general public. IG: 58:31 Yeah. GG: 58:32 But they were available. PG: 58:33 They were available. Yeah. IG: 58:35 Does it does- are you still continuing this work? PG: 58:39 No-no. The um- well, you know, the- this function for 19 years, which is a very long time for foundation funded activities, and just the funding could not be sustained. And so, I left in the end of 2013. And became a faculty member at the University of Southern California. IG: 59:12 Oh, that is where I worked, the library faculty. Beginning library faculty. PG: 59:17 I see, yeah. So, I was at the public and still am at the public policy school. But living here. IG: 59:26 You were living here so, but you shuttle back and forth. PG: 59:30 Well, not a lot I do, I do some teaching there, some teaching online. IG: 59:34 I see, I see, I see. PG: 59:36 And I am part of a research group. And you know, these days, you do not need to be physically there. IG: 59:41 It is a great school. I was there in the early (19)90s, and it already was acquiring a reputation of becoming the NYU of the West. It was no longer thought of as the university of the spoiled children. [laughter]I could see us, but it has a fantastic music school, fantastic linguistics. I mean, these are [crosstalk] PG: 1:00:11 Yeah, it is very hard to get in these days. IG: 1:00:13 Very-very. PG: 1:00:14 Undergraduates, at least, yeah, so that, so I joined that faculty, and two years ago, the actually a wealthy individual who had actually been instrumental in setting up the Economics and Policy Center I was affiliated with, called the Schaeffer Center for-for Health Policy and Economics. The Mr. Schaefer wanted to create a partnership between the Schaeffer Center at USC and Brookings, and so that is what led me to come to Brookings, to lead that partnership from Brookings. IG: 1:01:14 So, what-what is now the focus of your work? PG: 1:01:18 It is all on analyzing and developing health policies, health policies. So, I have done a number of different things. IG: 1:01:36 Oh yes. I mean, it is a stellar career. PG: 1:01:38 But that is doing different things, rather than contrast to my father and brother, each of whom had one job in their lives- IG: 1:01:46 Yes. PG: 1:01:49 -changes, I get bored with things. IG: 1:01:51 Right. I understand, but you and your wife- PG: 1:01:56 With everything except women. IG: 1:01:59 Let us, let us, let us just talk about this for the few minutes that you ever meet. So how did you meet your wife? PG: 1:02:08 I do not know exactly, but I was a senior. I was a senior, and she was a freshman at-at Harpur, and it was maybe about halfway through that year. GG: 1:02:23 I do not know exactly either. Most people have a certain date. So, we just, we met sometime, I think maybe spring. PG: 1:02:35 Yeah, probably, I mean, probably the spring semester. GG: 1:02:37 Yeah, he graduated, but then he was in Boston, and I was still at Harpur, and it was not quite so easy in those days to stay in touch. You could, if you but we did not know each other that much that deeply at that point, so I guess we did not. We stopped dating at that point. And then when I moved to Boston after college. We met again. PG: 1:03:03 Yes, that is three years later. GG: 1:03:05 Yeah, and then we got married within the year, yeah, six months or something like that. Because, in a sense, I kind of knew him. I just-just when we had moved to Boston, my roommate and I, we just assumed he was married, but we knew he would know the area. We both knew him a little bit, and so I would just ring him up and-and he was not in town, but he when he came back, he contacted me, and we started dating. IG: 1:03:41 And you discovered that he was not married. GG: 1:03:43 Yeah [laughter] That was even better. PG: 1:03:46 And ironically, this is when I had mentioned that not ready to start a thesis, I was working for a consulting firm and was in Nova Scotia. That is when she contacted me, when I was in Nova Scotia, but when I came back IG: 1:04:00 And you were happy that she contacted. PG: 1:04:02 Yes. IG: 1:04:04 What did you think of Gail at the time? What was she like? Was she the same person that she is now? I mean, some essence of her probably. PG: 1:04:13 Oh, of course, yes. IG: 1:04:15 So, was she the same person? How has she changed? Do you think- PG: 1:04:20 No one has ever asked me that. I mean, I am essentially the same person. Yeah, of course, she has changed. IG: 1:04:31 Yes. How about you? What-what-what-what would your classmates say about you from the time of Harpur College? Could they have predicted that you would have the major career that you did? PG: 1:04:47 Well, I was a good student there, at least for the last two plus years and but I do not know what they would have could have predicted. GG: 1:04:58 He is so understated. He was, like number two in the class. He was the top econ student. And Paul would say this, but I can say it. PG: 1:05:12 But in a sense, actually, what maybe-maybe people would be surprised by, and maybe they would not be, because, say, as a top student going to Harvard, they would have thought, oh, he will be a famous professor, and that is not the career I did. GG: 1:05:31 Paul was ahead. It is sort of in the vanguard of academic people who began to do more practical work than applied work. Academics tend to look down in almost irrespective one, well, maybe philosophy, but- IG: 1:05:49 No, I know the syndrome. GG: 1:05:51 Yeah, and Paul was really brave when he did not mention this. But when he left Duke, did not take his two-year leave every single close friend of his in academia said, "Do not do that and do not leave it. Do not leave academia." And when he was thinking of leaving, he had no support from his friends, really. He had a lot of support from his wife, because happy he was, but and then as far as I was concerned, that is all they counted. But the- but I felt that it was kind of a brave step. May not sound so brave looking back now, but at the time, it was a big deal to be someone who had the academic credentials to be a tenured professor at such a young age at Duke. He was really good and-and he just did not like it. He did not thrive in the environment. And he was wise enough, and we were all supportive enough of him to say. IG: 1:06:54 And this was in what just remind me what the years were. GG: 1:06:58 I do not know. you remember. PG: 1:06:59 That was probably 1978. IG: 1:07:00 1978. PG: 1:07:01 Yes, it is actually so I would say that my peers would have expected me to have a successful career. But I think only the ones that perhaps knew me really well might have imagined anything like the course it took. IG: 1:07:21 Well, I mean- PG: 1:07:22 In fact, they would have been very difficult, even for people that certainly I did not know, IG: 1:07:26 You did not know. How could they have. PG: 1:07:28 Yes, how could they have only, I am just saying think there is room for a very wise person. IG: 1:07:33 Yes-yes. There is always room for a very wise observing person. PG: 1:07:38 That is right. Actually, I will have to ask, we are actually, in a month from now, seeing an old friend from Harpur in New York, and we will have to ask him how surprised, how surprised he was. He was my roommate, friend a year or two. IG: 1:07:57 It is 4:30 if you have to do this. PG: 1:08:01 Yeah. I- IG: 1:08:02 I will. I would like to continue a little bit with Gail. PG: 1:08:05 Sure. Okay, I [crosstalk] IG: 1:08:06 If you- absolutely we can go on if you have time. But- PG: 1:08:10 Actually, I could spend another five or 10 minutes. IG: 1:08:13 Okay, all right. Well, yes- IG: 1:08:16 That is great. I have, I have- GG: 1:08:17 My schedule is flexible. IG: 1:08:18 Yeah, mine is too. My daughter is coming at eight, so I am not going to be here until 8. [laughs]. Okay, so more about you know, Gail and did you feel that during the during your time that the expectations for women students were different than they were for you know- so, you know, people had no problem predicting that Paul would have, you know, the stellar career, but did they have the same expectations for women students, although these were exceptional women students. GG: 1:09:01 It is an interesting question. I think that the university, there were many things about Binghamton University that I really did not care for. I found like little provincial and I felt isolated. I did not- I actually would have been more comfortable in a larger university, and I never realized that about myself. That is not Binghamton fault. That was right. That is just something you learn about yourself. But I would say that the academic environment was too theoretical in almost all disciplines, no matter what subject matter you picked, they took the theoretical perspective. You know, people moaned over the fact that the psych department only was experimental psych, no clinical. And I- IG: 1:09:57 The other day, I heard, said that, um, the clinical side was experimenting on mice. PG: 1:10:05 Yeah, well, that is what she means by experimental. Experimental means with my clinical- IG: 1:10:11 Those are the wet labs. Those are the- so I see. GG: 1:10:15 Yeah, and that. And when I started my math, unlike Paul, who had actually a more practical calculus course, I was hit with theoretical calculus from day one and it was like way over my head. Actually, would not have been over my head if I actually applied myself. But- PG: 1:10:33 You know, I was thinking about that my professor for math. It was his textbook that he used in my class. [laughs] GG: 1:10:40 I remember when I met Paul, he said, "Oh, you should use this textbook, because it will explain it so much better." But anyway, I would say that the academic environment was very welcoming, and it did not matter that I was a woman, I felt, I thought I had lots of opportunities within the university environment. After all, I was doing these sketches, there was another person who was also capable of those sketches, but I got to do them, and he was the other one was a fellow. I never felt discriminated against as a woman, and I know I was sensitive to it because of my mom, who was always pointing out inequities, and I went to an all-girls high school, a magnet school in Manhattan. And- IG: 1:11:29 Where did you go? GG: 1:11:30 Hunter College High School. And so, I would say that I was somewhat primed, even though I do not think I am a strident or feminist. I cannot say I have noticed anything. And I would say that I was also very lucky in my career that I have always had male mentors who did not hit on me. They were great people. They were- it was almost like father figures more. It is kind of the way you think it should be- IG: 1:12:03 Yeah. GG: 1:12:04 and I- IG: 1:12:04 Very lucky. GG: 1:12:05 I think I have been. I do not know whether it is I am so-so used to dealing with I had a lot of male cousins; I and I had a lot of male friends growing up, I was kind of a tomboy, and so maybe I just interact with men in a different way. IG: 1:12:22 In a different way. GG: 1:12:22 But whatever it is, I never felt discriminated against. What I did feel is that I thought that there was a lot out there in the world that had sort of institutionalized sexism more- IG: 1:12:39 Such as such as your first job out of college, being secretary. You went on- GG: 1:12:44 I was not sure that my professors could help me break into the chemistry lab, maybe, but I did not think so. And I was right on- PG: 1:12:52 I had this perception of college. I did not expect that the women were going to just get married and stay home. I do not think many of the women in my class got married when they graduated. Most of them got work of some sorts, and that may have been, you know, distinct from, say, a lot of other colleges. GG: 1:13:18 Yeah, a fair number of women, maybe-maybe the women, you know. But I thought there were quite a few in my year that married. After we-we married, not that soon after I finished college, really. PG: 1:13:30 Yeah. Well, three, four years after. GG: 1:13:34 No. IG: 1:13:35 Oh yeah, that is right. GG: 1:13:36 Nine months. PG: 1:13:37 Yeah. IG: 1:13:38 I mean, you were also, especially your generation was going, I mean, you were the same generation, but your graduating class, this was the time of Woodstock, of a lot of the youth culture and the rebellion of the new youth culture. PG: 1:13:57 I should probably go now. Thank you very much, Irene. IG: 1:13:59 Thank you. PG: 1:14:00 Enjoy. GG: 1:14:04 Thank you. One thing I would have to say is one of my biggest support in anything that I have done since I met him was Paul. He never, ever held me back in any way, he was always supportive, so maybe because he thought it would be much worse, leaving me frustrated at home. [laughs] I do not know. He is not self-serving, so it is just, if he would just take over child care. He was not much of a cook, but he could reheat things, and the kids used to call him the king of reheating. But he was always there to support whatever I had to do, whatever I had a class or something to go to, no problem. IG: 1:14:59 So, it maybe you know more a question of you know his particular personality and- GG: 1:15:09 [crosstalk] IG: 1:15:09 and his family background. GG: 1:15:12 His father jumped in and helped out too. IG: 1:15:15 It was less patriarchal. Do you or not at all- do you remember the (19)60s climate of, you know, rebelliousness, of drug, sex and rock and roll, of questioning everything, fighting the man. Did that have any impact? Or were you- GG: 1:15:39 Much more on me- IG: 1:15:40 Yes. GG: 1:15:41 -then Paul, because graduating in (19)68 was already seemed like the height of it. The beginning of the red wave. Certainly, there was much more political activity at that point than I remembered when I first started college. IG: 1:15:57 Yes. GG: 1:15:58 And-and I was not in the forefront of these movements. I never did drugs. I can be ditzy enough without drugs or alcohol. I can do that all on my own. And I have never had a taste for alcohol and-and I really did not like smoke that much so, but I had a lot of friends who were deep into marijuana culture. I am one of these people. I tend to have people friends from all walks of life. Is funny. I still have evangelical friends and I have socialist friends. IG: 1:16:42 Because you were comfortable with these different political uh- GG: 1:16:47 I guess so. I am always interested in what people how they come to these decisions, what drives them. What motivates them. And sometimes they are very nice people, even who do not agree with their political perspective. The Vietnam War was horrible. It started to come home to us more and more. You were a little isolated from it on campus, because in those days, there was like one television in-in each dorm, I think in the lobby area there would be a television, but you did not really get all that news. I did not, I do not think I even got a newspaper when I was in college, so I felt actually more isolated from the world than when I was living at home, where I would see newspapers and read them each day and but still, the news eventually came on campus, and Harpur was, I think, on the early side of these activities, I come from Staten Island, which was, you know, a great draft board. As far as recruiting for the army, a lot of people, a lot of people signed up for service. I know a lot of the names on that wall on the mall. I feel bad the people I went to elementary school with gone for what no purpose. What I think I missed in college was the beginnings of the feminist movement that seemed to my younger cousins kind of bring me into that more. IG: 1:18:25 But did not that beginnings, I mean, did not it kind of start in the very early (19)70s, or? GG: 1:18:32 I think it did. I think that is what I mean. I think so it was after. IG: 1:18:36 Right-right. GG: 1:18:37 And the same with civil rights. I seem to be a little bit more after my college years. So, I became aware of it just more through reading papers and being back into the real world. IG: 1:18:51 Right-right-right. Were there any students of color that you remember? IG: 1:18:57 Oh, yeah. GG: 1:18:58 Yeah. One of my objections to Harpur is I was accustomed to more diverse student body, and Harpur was the first time I was at a place where it seemed like everyone was Jewish, and I had not been, you know, that familiar with that uniform culture. It was interesting. But they- I think the last year, year and a half, there was more of an attempt to increase diversity. And there were a number of students that came on who were of African American descent, mostly as I recall. I do not think Hispanic or Asian. I do not recall seeing, and actually, I became friendly with some of the people in the program. It was pretty tough on them. They really stood out like sore thumbs. It would not have been as- it would have been a lot easier in a place that had more diversity to begin with. And I-I just know I had some friends who dated fellas in that program, and they got a lot of static in those days. This was interesting. The good friend who was started dating an African American who started to come to the university, and she said to me, you know, all these really liberal people who are out, you know, raging against the war and this and that, the other said they are just as racist as anyone else. And I trusted what she was saying. That was her experience. It was the comments she received and because she was dating someone who was different. IG: 1:18:58 Yeah. IG: 1:20:48 yeah, I think she probably was right. GG: 1:20:51 I am sure she was but frankly, you know, my parents were not ecstatic about Paul being Jewish. IG: 1:20:59 Yeah. GG: 1:20:59 So, I have seen it from the other side. But then when they really met Paul, they loved him. So sometimes you just have to get to know people. IG: 1:21:11 I think so. I think it is I agree, I agree. I think it is a question of exposure. And, uh- GG: 1:21:18 Yeah. So Harpur did not really have a diverse environment. Most days it was uni, fairly liberal, which was more than I was, more liberal than I had seen before. So, I found it that part interesting. IG: 1:21:34 Right-right. So, you know, I am just, you know, you said a lot of very interesting things, that you were given a theoretical education. You know, you were given a theoretical- you were given validation, you know, both as a scientist, as a student of literature, as an artist. Do you think you would have had this opportunity, you know, at another school, at a larger school? I mean, it is too theoretical to say, but you know- GG: 1:22:17 Actually, it is not, because I have my graduate school experience too. There is something about me that I the way, I guess I interact with people or whatever, I have never lacked for support or for mentors, and they just come out of the woodwork. And I do not know how it happens, but I am really lucky that way, I, for example, took to cut down my commute to graduate school. Actually, took some courses, biochemistry courses over at NIH, they had that evening program, and my university was willing to accept the credits. And it just turned out, you know, I think it is because I would stop stay after class and ask questions, and I became friendly with the professors of the course, and that is how I got my job at NIH. Go figure you cannot plan on it. IG: 1:23:17 No, you cannot. GG: 1:23:17 You just cannot plan on happening. But that is exactly how my career has always unfolded. I just have these opportunities fall in front of me, and I take them. IG: 1:23:33 Give us another example. GG: 1:23:38 I think, well, when I was a great graduate student. I-I got a first I started by getting an internship. I got a summer I got a summer internship at a really wonderful lab at NIH, directly from my biochemistry class, they had said, you know, this guy is really good, and he could use someone for the summer. So, I went and talked with him and-and then from there, the fellow who was my mentor at that lab, who unfortunately has passed away, Howard. He went. He met my son, who at that time was a budding computer scientist, but he just and mathematician and everything that he has become. And Howard just went to a meeting and said, "You know, I know about this really young kid. He was too young to really take a job, but he would be great for anyone who needs blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And Adam got a summer internship at NIH too. IG: 1:24:59 Right. [crosstalk] but, you know, part of it is being an insider already, and that that sort of exposes you to the opportunities. You know, it is, I mean, if you were coming out, if you were coming cold, into this, it would have been maybe a more difficult proposition, but you were already in the mix. GG: 1:25:22 Yeah, but they were you know- IG: 1:25:24 [crosstalk] of course. GG: 1:25:25 I was in that class. But [crosstalk] who got- IG: 1:25:29 No but it is but you were, you were the one who was chosen. So- GG: 1:25:33 Yeah, so I was, I always felt like I was fortunate that way. IG: 1:25:37 Yeah. GG: 1:25:40 It is another way. Oh, I know, I had a brief interlude before I went into bio, molecular biology. I spent some time, felt a had a degree in audiology, and I worked for a while there, thinking this would be a very easy kind of time work. You know, I could do that handling with the family and blah, blah, blah, and I did not. I had underestimated just how boring it was. So, I became interested in, I became friendly with the neurologists and the rehab center where I worked, and they would invite me to come in, and we would autopsies of some of the patient. Oh, this is very little gross for some people, but for some of the patients where I had helped with the diagnosis, the- they would invite me to come and see what the physical brain looked like. They were dissecting. They were trying to better understand what was the cause of the problem. There is a lot that you cannot do neurologically. IG: 1:26:51 There is what? GG: 1:26:52 A lot that about neuroanatomy and neurology. It is not well understood even today, no less back then. And so, then that led me to take a neuroanatomy course in the medical school, and I got the top grade in the class on the exam. And the professor did not know who I was, so he held back giving the- he was giving out all the papers, and he held mine for last because he wanted to see who I was. IG: 1:27:28 So that is, well, I mean, it is, it is obviously, you know, it is talent, and I think, you know, kind of an open mindedness and GG: 1:27:39 Curiosity, yeah, I am much less disciplined than Paul. Paul is, like, really a good student. I am a good student if I am interested and if I am not interested well [crosstalk] IG: 1:27:53 But it seems that he gets he gets forward very quickly. So, he- GG: 1:27:56 He does. IG: 1:27:57 He tackles a problem, and then he moves on. GG: 1:28:00 Yeah, he gets restless. IG: 1:28:01 Yeah. GG: 1:28:02 The Seven Year Itch, always Yeah. So, I guess I get restless too. But I was really particularly one of the things I used to really like about working at NIH and I switched from the lab into infectious disease program grants work. Um, and again, because a friend of mine, a clinical fellow who worked in the lab where I worked, we just became friendly, and she had moved over to this position, and then she had an opportunity to recruit me. So, I interviewed, and I was accepted for the job the- but so I became started to get into, back into clinical work and but really using my research background to help with understand the science and help people with their grants. And so, some of it was very administrative. Some of it was program development. IG: 1:29:10 I think that is fascinating. The program development aspect, I think would be very interesting. Did you find it? GG: 1:29:16 I did, yeah, I liked it a lot. I actually ran a US Japan program. IG: 1:29:24 A what? GG: 1:29:26 A US Japan program? IG: 1:29:27 A US Japan, I just did not hear so- GG: 1:29:29 Infection in mycobacterial research. So, the diseases of tuberculosis and leprosy, they are bigger public health issues in Asia, and certainly, when the program was started, they were much bigger. These diseases are, you know, are treated by have drug treatments now that kind of help that they help quite a bit, especially with leprosy, TB still [inaudible] problem. But anyway, yeah, there are programs like that that you can run. I had a lot of there are big projects that we conceive of. We put out an announcement things. Group gets funded, and then I have to have oversight over that project. I started to become the specialist in diagnostics for mycobacterial diseases, and that was very interesting, because it tied in my whole background with small business, because it was actually the small business programs where most of the diagnostics applications were coming in from, and we had noticed- IG: 1:30:48 Please explain that. GG: 1:30:50 Well, NIH has set aside has is required by Congress, and much of the federal government is required by Congress to set aside a certain amount of funding. It is actually a percent of your funds that you receive from Congress have to be set aside and used for small business projects to stimulate small businesses to support their work science. So, these are small businesses that are often offshoots of academic work. Someone from a university has built a patent on something they, on the side, develop a small business, have a few students or people work for them. They put in applications through the small business program. And there are, there is a limit to the type of project that you can do in a small setting like that. And it turns out that diagnostics is a very good approach for small business. It is something you can actually make money on. Have a product that you ultimately sell to a big company, and it is very doable. IG: 1:31:59 Such as I remember reading about a battery size sensor that can diagnose a range of diseases from your breath. It is like- GG: 1:32:16 Yeah, breathalyzer. IG: 1:32:17 Breathalyzer. GG: 1:32:18 Yeah, even though the scientist [crosstalk] IG: 1:32:20 Yeah, really who is the scientist? GG: 1:32:22 Michael Phillips is one of the one of these developers, I think he has a compassionate use approval from FDA for his using heart rejection, IG: 1:32:36 Yeah, for multiple purposes, I think. GG: 1:32:40 He was trying for lung cancer, if for TB, it has been a little [inaudible]. I do not know how his work- IG: 1:32:47 That is right. And the idea of these breathalyzers is that they could be easily used by people in under developed countries where there is no not, not as much theories too. That is a theory. But in reality, that does not work well. GG: 1:33:03 In reality, the world is more complex. IG: 1:33:06 Of course. GG: 1:33:07 Yeah. So, you can get a lot of anomalies that your equipment picks up, too, especially if you are in an area where this is disease is common, and everyone has that. So, there is a lot of it floating around in the air. I see you have to be sure you are picking up something that is specific from that person. And you do not know if that, and there are a lot of technical aspects, but in theory, it has a lot of potential. There is potential for blood tests running able to help. It was, it was a perfect program for me, and everyone began to realize that, and they were sending all the people to me, so I became the go to person at our Institute for small business projects in mycobacterial diseases. IG: 1:33:58 That is, that is fantastic. GG: 1:34:00 Yeah. So, I started out as a literature major, but anyway, well, life evolved. IG: 1:34:08 So, are you still in touch with your Binghamton classmates? Any of them? Or do you have any? GG: 1:34:18 I was in touch with three people from school. Unfortunately, two of them have passed away, and the third one I have kind of fallen out with. I do not see her so much. I saw her up till about maybe five, six years ago, something like that, just off and on. But I think the ones that I lost, I think were the ones that I was closest with, really, and that is unfortunate. IG: 1:34:54 So-so, you know, I think that you. We are kind of coming to sort of a natural end, unless you know, so-so-so you know, some of the things that I some of the concluding questions that I ask my interview is, so what-what you know, life lessons you could you impart to current and future students at Binghamton, what are the most important elements for success, for your success, that really have characterized your career GG: 1:35:44 Well, I think starting out, especially if they are young, they should spend some time getting advice on how to tackle college. I think that there is advice given today that was not available at all when we were there. I think it would have helped some people. I am sure I would have benefited from some advice I learned somewhere between college and graduate school. I learned how to really focus and what was really needed in a classroom, academic setting. And so, I just went through those courses, breezed through them. I think that it would have been if I had just a little bit of advice on organizing and how to go about doing things. I think it would have helped me at that age, for sure. I think Paul stabilized me so much that by the time going through graduate school, it was really easy, even though we had two children at home, and I was handling that on top. I think the second thing though is I would really encourage people to reach out to professors and to reach out to the graduate students and try to engage in an intellectual life in college, because you- it is the one place where You can get an intellectual life, you cannot be guaranteed of it once you leave college. You know your next-door neighbors may be gun toting rednecks. They may be a lot of fun at a barbecue. But they are not going to help you on an intellectual life and-and I find that it can be hard at different points in your life. You really want to know what it feels like to use your brain and to think intellectually so that you can come back to it at different points in your life. If you have never experienced it in college, then when do you expect to and I think colleges should that is something. Our son went to Harvard as an undergraduate, and one of their strengths, they have a lot of weaknesses. It was great for him, but it was one of the strengths, is that they make this intellectual home at every dorm. They have an intellectual life that goes on, the graduate students and people who proctors, who are all part of stimulating intellectual life, and-and Harpur had some of that when we were there. We had people in the dorms, and there was a little bit of that stimulation. And they sometimes younger faculty would be in the dining hall, and you would get a chance to talk with them. Maybe I can get to know them really well. I think that is really important. I think that is something that colleges would strive for, and I think that students should expect and try to get out of college, because it-it then helps you come out into the adult world and-and interact with adults. And to have it-it raises your expectations out of life. IG: 1:39:13 Yes, I think very well, very well, very well. put, very well put, you know, and it just gives you, it is so important to have an intellectual life, because it is part of the human experience that not everybody has an opportunity to- GG: 1:39:34 Yeah, and if you are going to college, that is what you should be expecting, not a technical training. IG: 1:39:41 Yeah, I agree. I agree. Any concluding remarks, anything? GG: 1:39:49 That is fine. [laughs] (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paul Ginsburg and Gail Ginsburg Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in health policy; Harpur College – Alumni at University of Southern California; Harpur College – Alumni at the Brookings Institution; Harpur College – Alumni at the Rand Corporation; Harpur College – Alumni at the U.S. Congressional Budget Office; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institutes of Health Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ginsburg, Paul ; Ginsburg, Gail ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Paul Ginsburg, PhD is the director, USC-Brookings Schaeffer Initiative for Health Policy and the Leonard D. Schaeffer Chair in Health Policy Studies, The Brookings Institution; and Professor of Health Policy and Director of Public Policy, Schaeffer Center for Health Policy and Economics, University of Southern California. He also worked at the Rand Corporation, the Congressional Budget Office (1978-84), wrote policies that informed Hillary Clinton's health policy and founded the Center for Studying Health System Change. Gail is a microbiologist with the grants office at the National Institutes of Health. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Paul and Gail Ginsburg.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-12 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 99:53 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2a635b973ea3796da4b1bb7292828d6b.mp3 aae7324e940e208c03b4140a39b559d9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-03-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Paul Gorman Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Paul Gorman is an environmentalist, educator, author, former radio host and congressional aide. A graduate of Yale and Oxford Universities, Gorman served as press secretary and speechwriter to Senator Eugene McCarthy in the 1968 presidential campaign. He taught at the City University of New York, Sarah Lawrence College and Adelphi University, and hosted a public radio program for over 28 years. Gorman is founder and executive director of the National Religious Partnership for the Environment since 1993. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":342787,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"inherit","16":10,"19":0,"21":0}">Paul Gorman is an environmentalist, educator, author, former radio host, and a congressional aide. A graduate of Yale and Oxford Universities, Gorman served as press secretary and speechwriter to Senator Eugene McCarthy in the 1968 presidential campaign. He taught at the City University of New York, Sarah Lawrence College, and Adelphi University, and hosted a public radio program for over 28 years. Gorman is the founder and executive director of the National Religious Partnership for the Environment since 1993. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"John F. Kennedy; Eugene McCarthy; Corruption in government; Yippies; Woodstock; Religion in the Nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Influence of TV on society; Vietnam War; Nonviolent protests. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">John F. Kennedy; Eugene McCarthy; Corruption in government; Yippies; Woodstock; Religion in the Nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Influence of TV on society; Vietnam War; Nonviolent protests. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 174:09 Subject LCSH Environmentalists; Radio broadcasters; Press secretaries; Speechwriters; Authors, American--20th century; National Religious Partnership for the Environment; College teachers; Gorman, Paul--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paul Gorman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gorman, Paul ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Environmentalists; Radio broadcasters; Press secretaries; Speechwriters; Authors, American--20th century; National Religious Partnership for the Environment; College teachers; Gorman, Paul--Interviews Description An account of the resource Paul Gorman is an environmentalist, educator, author, former radio host, and a congressional aide. A graduate of Yale and Oxford Universities, Gorman served as press secretary and speechwriter to Senator Eugene McCarthy in the 1968 presidential campaign. He taught at the City University of New York, Sarah Lawrence College, and Adelphi University, and hosted a public radio program for over 28 years. Gorman is the founder and executive director of the National Religious Partnership for the Environment since 1993. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.194a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.194b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 174:09 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/82556bbbd890c3c603b844028ec4f2a9.jpg 93af7916dce5f371dfc797319c2de378 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/40934a5aa8eb22b2325a2e239500c366.mp3 9b5058a329afb40588d6b154cc8e6749 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2003-07-11 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Paul Hendrickson Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Paul Hendrickson is an author, journalist, and educator. He is a senior lecturer in the English Department at the University of Pennsylvania. He was a former member of the writing staff at the Washington Post. Hendrickson is the author of two books, The Living and The Dead and Sons of Mississippi. Hendrickson attended St. Louis University for his Bachelor's degree in English, and Pennsylvania State University for his Master's degree in English."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7051,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,5099745],"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Paul Hendrickson is an author, journalist, and educator. He is a senior lecturer in the English Department at the University of Pennsylvania. He was a former member of the writing staff at the Washington Post. Hendrickson is the author of two books, The Living and The Dead and Sons of Mississippi. Hendrickson attended St. Louis University for his Bachelor's degree in English, and Pennsylvania State University for his Master's degree in English. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/wav Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 80:31 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Activism; Post-war affluence; Collier and Horowitz; Anti-war Movement; Richard Nixon Resignation; Scott Fitzgerald; Vietnam Memorial; Robert McNamara; Jane Fonda; Civil Right; U.S Presidents; Hanoi Jane."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7059,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":3381606},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Activism; Post-war affluence; Collier and Horowitz; Anti-war Movement; Richard Nixon Resignation; Scott Fitzgerald; Vietnam Memorial; Robert McNamara; Jane Fonda; Civil Right; U.S Presidents; Hanoi Jane. Subject LCSH College teachers; English teachers; Authors; Journalists; Hendrickson, Paul, 1944--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Paul Hendrickson Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 11 July 2003 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): All right. When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first things that comes to your mind when you think of that period? PH (00:00:15): I guess I am speaking personally. Chaos, in terms of you almost woke up and did not know what the headline was going to be that day. I should back up and say that my own coming to awareness and consciousness in the world coincides with the (19)60s, which is why all my book projects, or so many of them, seem to be centered in the (19)60s. I was really an altar boy growing up in the (19)50s in a sheltered, Catholic, provincial, Midwestern town outside of Chicago and then I went to religious life, to the seminary, for seven years. In some ways, my awareness was stunted, not my intellectual growth, because the seminary was rigorous, but my awareness of the greater world outside me was stunted, so that when I came out of the seminary smack in the middle of the 1960s, literally July, 1965, I felt as if I were swimming straight out from shore. And it was overwhelming to learn about girls, to finish college, because I had done at least half of university in the seminary, and to connect with what was going on in the world around me. Kennedy, our great "Catholic" president, had been killed and that made a profound impact in the seminary, but we were still behind those seminary walls. That was (19)63. When I came out of religious life in 1965, so much in that short period of time had happened and I was trying to catch up with it. I mean, cities were starting to burn, Watts in Los Angeles. Vietnam was, not that I knew it, in the summer of (19)65, but America had taken over the war. It was now the Americanized war. All those years later, I would write a book about it. My opening word to you was chaos and that, even, is a personal statement of how I felt because interiorly, I had no grounding. It felt like I was on a sandbar or on a merry-go-round, trying to catch up. I was 21 years old. I had never been on a date and the world seemed to be swirling and I seemed to be swirling inside. SM (00:03:17): The boomer generation is characterized as a group of people that were born between 1946 and 1964. Now in recent years, there has been a lot of critique of this generation by news broadcasters or columnists or whatever. The basic criticism is the fact that they look at this generation of boomers as the reason why we have a lot of problems in this country, in issues like the drugs, issues dealing with sex, maybe even the increase in the divorce rate. All kinds of problems in our society meant there has been a lot of criticism of the boomers. Could you comment on whether that criticism is fair or unjust? PH (00:04:05): It is such a broad question that it seems to me there is truth in it and there is stereotype in it. There is myth in it that is unjust. I guess I am certainly part of that generation, even though I am just a little ahead of it. I was born in (19)44, so I am two years ahead of what might be technically or formally defined as the boomer generation and my own life, because of what I was just saying in the previous remarks, was more esoteric and eccentric than the classic boomer growing up, but of course, I am formed by that period of time. I am formed by the (19)50s and I am marked by the (19)60s. Is it fair? Yes. And is it unfair? Yes. It is fair in the sense that this generation had so much indulged upon it, extra expendable income by post-war affluence, a pampered quality, which has its flaws and sins and excesses in terms of the trouble, then, that people get into with their sense of affluence, with their sense of indulgence, and with their sense of, in a way, overeducated, not needing to be as accountable, both financially accountable and morally accountable, as the previous generation, as their parents and certainly going back to the depression of the 1930s, where no one had any money and people instantly had to start working and were grateful for any kind of employment. This boomer generation, the word itself, boomer, implies a lot about indulgence and laziness, maybe, and entertainment values. It is unfair in the sense that out of the boomer generation have come such already successful people, hardworking people, people that you talked about in your remarks before we even turned on the tape recorder, who have changed this country for the better. You have mentioned Tom Hayden. Okay, there is one. SM (00:06:54): When you look at the boomer generation when you were young, leaving the seminary, could you comment on the thoughts that you had on the generation when you were young in comparison to your thoughts today? PH (00:07:09): Just say that again. I am a little confused with what you want. SM (00:07:14): Your thoughts on the boomer generation, your generation, when you came out of the seminary, when you were in your early twenties, what were your thoughts about the young people that you were seeing in America of that period? Has that changed over time and have you thought about it and evolved in your thinking about this generation, and then where do you stand today on them? PH (00:07:35): Well, I will get in trouble here for what I am going to say. I am a teacher of writing at Penn, non-fiction writing, advanced non-fiction writing. These kids are the best and the brightest who get into these writing seminars. I am very, very proud of them because of how talented they are and how hard they work. I get the top of the pyramid, the creme de la creme, but what I am getting at here, Steve, is that I see all around me, when I said I am going to get in trouble, at the University of Pennsylvania, an elitism, an entitlement. When we were talking about the boomer generation being spoiled and too much income, the word that might come is entitlement. I feel that this generation of kids, and I am not talking about the ones I teach, because that is a very selective thing for them to get in. They are the committed, hardworking ones. I have to interview them before I allow them in. The run-of-the-mill, which is very, very high caliber of intellectual quality at Penn, those kids are entitled. They are too affluent for their own good. They are too smug for their own good. I feel that this generation has out-boomered the generation that I saw. You asked me what I thought of the world and young people my age when I came out of the seminary in (19)65. I still had blinkers on. I was still trying to learn. I went to a fairly conservative Jesuit university in the Midwest to finish up my education, St. Louis University, and the kids there were certainly boomers, but not in the real pejorative way that we think of it. I mean, just this term that we have been throwing around, boomer, strikes me as a pejorative idea. Do not you agree? SM (00:09:55): Mm-hmm. PH (00:09:57): And I think the rap is undeserved in some ways and in other ways, no. What you often find about me is that I am in the middle on everything. I, in many, ways see the grays of life. It is sixes and sevens with me. I am certainly not wanting to deny that the boomer generation caused a lot of problems. Do you know these two authors, Collier and Horowitz- SM (00:10:39): Yes. PH (00:10:39): ...who were radicals and then one of them, at least, Horowitz more than Collier, went totally over to the other side? SM (00:10:47): He has been on our campus. PH (00:10:48): Yeah. SM (00:10:49): He wrote Radical Son. PH (00:10:51): Yeah, you should interview him. SM (00:10:53): Well, we- PH (00:10:54): He is a difficult guy. SM (00:10:55): Yeah. We have had him twice on our campus. When you describe, can you break down the qualities that you most admire in the boomers and then the qualities you least admire in them? PH (00:11:09): Well, most admire are, this is almost flying in the face of some of what we were just talking. Most admire that they were idealistic. They want to change the world. They could not stand Vietnam. They could not stand the fact that African Americans were unjustly treated, so they were doing things, this is this element of the boomer generation, that was highly conscious and conscientious. I admire that tremendously. They wanted to change the world for the better. The things I do not admire are the ones who were listening too much to the Beach Boys and hanging out. SM (00:12:01): When you look at the anti-war movement, the anti-war movement is looked upon by most as college students, graduate students and undergraduate students who were very important in the ending of the Vietnam War. Your thoughts on how impactful these students were in ending this war? PH (00:12:25): I mean, we look back now and we see the excesses of the anti-war movement. A lot of the kids who were out there protesting, there were elements of peer responsibility, too much drugs, too much free love. All right, all right, all right, I agree to that, but I believe that, you said impact. It was tremendously impactful. That war would not have come to a conclusion. America would not have withdrawn its support if it were not for the boomer generation out there pushing and pushing and pushing and led by older generations, just as we mentioned Dan Berrigan before, Robert Lowell, the poet, Norman Mailer. All of the anti-war sentiment that grew has its roots in this same generation that is accused of so many sins. Yeah, they did tremendous things wrong and there were tremendous excesses, but the good of it, the power of it is far outweighed by history, it seems to me, which conservative Americans would want to write off and say, "Oh, it was irresponsible kids, stoned, who did not want to go to work and just wanted to protest something." Not true. SM (00:13:59): How do you respond to the critics who say that because of these college students who protested against the war or the Berrigans or the [inaudible] and so forth, they prolonged the war? PH (00:14:13): In what way? How could they have prolonged the war? SM (00:14:15): This is an attitude that comes from the Vietnamese and from the North Vietnamese, as some of the recent literature has stated that we knew when we saw this happening that we were going to eventually win, and so thus they can actually say that because of that, there are more names on the wall because they were not going to give up, period. PH (00:14:34): And it made the North Vietnamese, it gave them fodder for their cause. It made them hold together, but look how torn with dissension America is. If we just hang on, we will prevail. These people, these radical kids are on our side. Yeah, there is some truth to that and the grays are everywhere. There would be some truth to that, but far more, it seems to me, is the fact that all of that protest got the attention of the country because the lies that were being told within the government. I mean, I know what I am talking about. When I came out of the seminary in 1965, I knew nothing. It was so many years later when I was a reporter for the Washington Post and started looking at this and thinking about it and interviewing Robert McNamara, the architect of the policy, and when I started doing that, I knew nothing about the systematic and systemic lies that had been told. Those kids out there protesting, they did not have those documents, but they knew in their gut that it was a dishonest war and an immoral war, and God bless them. I, in my own way, only three years out of the seminary, joined the anti-war movement because I was at Penn State as a graduate student and I was passing out leaflets for Eugene McCarthy. I got with the program. SM (00:16:17): He was my first interview couple years back. He is not doing too well right now because he has got real bad back, but he is still hanging in there. When you look at the issues of the (19)60s, it is just a vibrant era, when you think of all the movements that came together. There was the anti-war movement, the civil rights movement, the women's movement evolved. I remember even the Native American movement, the Chicano movement, the gay and lesbian group. Is there one reason why this was all happening at this time? Can we look at the civil rights movement and say this gave the impetus for other movements? This was the example that allowed other groups to say, "We can do it. We can make a change in this world" PH (00:17:06): Maybe that is one theory, the bounce off theory, the synergistic theory. Synergism is all these forces colliding and coming off and positively reacting off one another. The Chicano movement synergistically gets its power from the civil rights movement, which synergistically, the civil rights movement gets its power from Vietnam protest or vice versa. Yeah, that seems to me as good a theory as any. I like that, Steve. You should talk to Sheldon Hackney, professor at Penn, who has written a book. SM (00:17:43): I have got it. Great book. PH (00:17:44): And he teaches in a course on the (19)60s and he is teaching a course this fall, or maybe it is a preceptorial, called The End of the (19)60s. You said, "Why did all these things come together?" I do not know the answer other than... All I can say is that I was in the middle of this thing and it was swirling around me, just like it was for you. That is why all of the writing power that I feel, so much of it is rooted there in the (19)60s. I am still trying to get to the bottom of the mystery. What were the (19)60... Every great once in a while, these periods of time come along that are just so powerful, cataclysmic. If you believe in the pendulum swing of history, you go the (19)30s to the (19)60s to the (19)90s. F. Scott Fitzgerald said that it takes about 30 years for a generation to occur. The cataclysms of the 1930s, when did the 1930s began? They began on Black Monday, 1929, when the stock market fell. And when did the 1930s end? I think they ended on December 7th, 1941, when Pearl Harbor, because history does not go in these neat 10-year cycles, so let us say the (19)30s began the day the stock market crashed and ended the day that we declared war on Japan. The pendulum swing generation ... When did the 1960s begin? For me, the 1960s began on November 22nd, 1963, when Kennedy gets killed. And when did the (19)60s end? Tricky question, they ended on August 9th, 1974, when Richard Nixon resigned. The (19)60s really, the (19)60s are not New Year's Day 1960 to New Year's day 1969, no, November 22nd, 1963 to August 9th, 1974, when Nixon resigned. Now swing the pendulum again. When did the, quote, when did the (19)90s begin? I mean, we are going on the paradigm of Scott Fitzgerald's 30-year swing. If there is supposed to be a revisiting, the (19)60s are [inaudible] generous, so we will never have a decade like that, I do not think, again. Maybe, who knows, but what happened in the (19)60s cannot compare, in my mind, to the (19)30s. The (19)60s is like a boa constrictor having swallowed a warthog. It just bumps up so large. When did the (19)90s begin, "the (19)90s?" If we are talking (19)30s, (19)60s, (19)90s, this is a trick question that I use on my documentary students. When did the (19)90s begin, Steve? SM (00:20:52): I would think it would begin when Ronald Reagan became president. PH (00:20:55): Wrong. No, we are talking about upheaval, cataclysm. We have got the paradigm of the (19)30s. We have got the (19)60s. When did the (19)90s begin? This is a trick question. This is a trick question that is absolutely compelling if you stop and think about it. SM (00:21:13): It was not when Bill Clinton came in. PH (00:21:14): No, it is not cataclysmic enough. SM (00:21:16): Okay, yeah. PH (00:21:18): Now remember, history does not go in the- SM (00:21:20): Oh, you are talking about 9/11. PH (00:21:21): The (19)90s began on September 11th, 2001. SM (00:21:27): Okay. PH (00:21:28): That is when the (19)90s began. (19)30s, (19)60s, (19)90s. SM (00:21:31): You are right. PH (00:21:33): The world has been different since September 11th, 2001. SM (00:21:36): Oh, definitely. PH (00:21:37): That is the pendulum swing of history. SM (00:21:39): Right. Good analogy. Very good. When you think of the boomer generation, the Vietnam Memorial was open in 1982. The goal of the Vietnam Memorial was to heal within the veterans and with the families of the veterans itself, but also hopefully to heal the nation. It was meant to be a non-political entity. Could you talk about your thoughts on the impact that the Vietnam Memorial has had on healing, not only within the veterans and the family of veterans, but within the nation as a whole? And I preface this question with, what effect does this have on those individuals who are involved in the anti-war movement or as some people say, may have guilt feelings for not serving? PH (00:22:34): I love the Vietnam Memorial. I have been there many-many-many times. I have been there at all times of the day, in the middle of the night, in the early morning, on weekends, on national holidays. I have experienced it in a wide spectrum and variety of occasions and emotions and anything I can say about it is positive and powerful. I have never been to the Vietnam Memorial when I do not see some expression of powerful emotions, some display of something beautiful, somebody breaking down, crying as they are tracing a name on the wall, motorcycle veterans who are terribly overweight with long hair who are holding onto each other for dear life, and that is their humanity, not their physical appearance. It is their humanity of suddenly being called back to the fact of where they were when somebody died, some comrade died, whom they knew. I always wanted to go down there with Robert McNamara. I always wanted to see Robert McNamara there. He said to me in his office when I interviewed him, "Yes, I have been there." I am not even sure he has. If he has, maybe he has been there with a hat over his head and dark glasses in the middle of the night. I do not know. He said he was there. I hope so. I hear your question and about those who guilt and who did not serve and that, but I can only think of it as a positive healing slash of granite coming out of the earth. James Webb, who was the (19)60s figure who was Secretary of the Navy and was a decorated winner, I think he even won the Congressional Medal of Honor, certainly won a lot. No, I think he won bronze stars and things. He was a marine combat veteran and has written novels and he hated the Vietnam Memorial's design when it came out. He was leading the protest about this. They did not accept us when we came back and now they were trying to build a monument that is ugly and is a slash of marble coming out of the ground. That was wrongheaded. I mean, I forgive him tremendously. He could not see the power, the perfect power of that monument. Its form follows function. You walk into that monument. As you go down the descending steps, the wall gets higher and those names get higher and the power and the profundity of 58,000 dead grows on you that way. I am in awe of this monument. I am of the belief that it has brought great healing to the country, not enough. SM (00:26:06): You brought up McNamara again. I am going to go on a limb here and have your comments on McNamara because when I have been to the wall and the veterans that I have known in the Westchester area and in Philadelphia, there are three names that they seem to, I use the word hate. Robert McNamara is one. Jane Fonda is the most, and for some reason, Bill Clinton. Now, I would just like your thoughts again on these three names and why these three names seem to bring such ire to them, Vietnam veterans, and they will never heal from their thoughts from them. PH (00:26:50): Yeah. They bump up large. It is symbolism. McNamara seems so sure. To our generation, you say that name, it is like a knife point, McNamara. It is a knife point of remembering of consciousness. It has to do with his look, that swept back hair, those steel rim glasses that were both scary and I mean, daunting and awesome at the same time. Gee, there must be tremendous intellect there. And the body was so rigid and tight. His body seemed to fit in an envelope. It was all about lies, as it was later revealed, and then he fell. He felt so large because he quit believing that the war could be won and yet, he kept trying to pretend, so there was this mask. When all this later began to be exposed, I mean, he just became such a figure of enmity and among the veterans I know, he will never be forgiven. I have always wondered why he did not get murdered. I mean, people tried. Why did not he get murdered? There is just such hatred out there, such incredible hatred, and he is still an arrogant man. He is an old, old, old man, but he is still arrogant. The story of McNamara is that he falls and then he comes back into his arrogance. He comes back into his pridefulness. The stone monument of his pridefulness is a line that I used in the book, and that is very hard to forgive. It says in the Bible, "Pride goeth before destruction," and that is the McNamara story. Hubris, McNamara symbolically came to stand for such hubris of that administration, far more than Lyndon Johnson, who was devious and power diseased, but McNamara came to stand for this incredible hubris. People who put their lives on the line over there can never forget that and can never forget the feeling of how they were betrayed, and that goes for Jane Fonda, of whom I know of so much less about. Hanoi Jane can never be forgiven. SM (00:29:32): Hold that thought. I am going to put [inaudible] Okay. PH (00:29:45): Hanoi Jane cannot be forgiven because it just seemed that people were dying and she, in her arrogance and her smugness in her ignorance, went to North Vietnam and was spitting on the valor and spitting on the struggle, the blood of these GIs. Clinton is a much more complicated case. It has to do with his lying and his hypocrisy and boomer, who seems to have gotten away with a lot of things, who avoided because... Boomers get the rap, and not undeservedly, for being able to have stiff armed service in Vietnam, where the ordinary guy coming out of Westchester, Pennsylvania on his high school education or his modest community college education, does not have the leverage, the political sophistication, financial leverage to avoid service, skillfully avoid service because of his upper middle class economic sophistication and abilities to hide behind certain deferments. That is what Clinton seems to stand for. Hanoi Jane seems to stand for her traitor, her traitorousness. Clinton seems to stand for his manipulations of the system and McNamara seems to stand for hubris, for pride. SM (00:31:47): What is interesting about Clinton is the person who wrote the letter so that he could go to Oxford was Senator William Fulbright, who ended up going as head of the Senate for Relations Committee, who supported the war in the beginning, but then criticized it and wrote The Arrogance of Power. The irony that the man who became one of the most disliked individuals during the Johnson presidency ended up being the man that helped Clinton. There is a little bit of irony there. PH (00:32:16): There is a little bit of irony there. Fulbright did not know much about Bill Clinton, just wrote him a letter, wrote a letter on his behalf. Fulbright was a great man. He had the power. He had the moral capital to change when he saw that it was corrupt. We called Fulbright as an old man in a K street law firm, long retired from government. I am interviewing him for the McNamara book and I said, "Sir." I mean, he was a hero of mine. And he was old by then, and he basically did not have a job. He was just in a law firm as a emeritus associate guy. And I said, "Sir, I was so naive when I started this McNamara project. I did not understand how these..." He said, "Do not feel bad. I was naive, too. I was a US senator." SM (00:33:04): Yeah. He wrote a really good book, The Price of Empire, and I guess he co-wrote it with Mr. Tillman or something like that, and we ended up taking students from Westchester University down to meet him as our first Leadership on the Road program. Gaylord Nelson helped us secure it right during the Gulf War in (19)91, and it was a tremendous meeting. He had had a stroke, but he was back fully strong. And he walked into the room and he had that gut and the suspenders were up and everything and his sport coat. And he said, "Why do you want to listen to an old man?" I will never forget that, but at that point forward, he challenged our students and you knew right away how powerful he was. We had a student government president at the time who was so gung hoed for the war and of course, he was against the war, so it was a great learning experience for our students to give him the pro viewpoint. When you look at the lasting legacy of the boomer generation... You are a writer and some of the best World War II books are coming out now, almost 50 years afterwards. When the best books are written on the (19)60s and the (19)70s and the boomer generation, what do you think the lasting legacy is going to be of the boomers via the greater period of time to really reflect and understand the history of this period? PH (00:34:28): That they sought to make a change and it was a human enterprise. Any institution that they became part of, like the SDS, is flawed and full of excesses because it is run by human beings, but they were idealistic and felt that the world, there was corruption and that they were being lied to and they tried to do something about it. That, to me, has to be saluted and remembered. When we wash off or want to write off the (19)60s crowd as dope smoking, long-haired, irresponsible, that is inexact and inaccurate. The greater part of it is that they were large elements were trying to make a difference. SM (00:35:30): How do you even deal with the subtleness that some people use, maybe not to go as far as attacking the extreme elements of the (19)60s, but stating that this particular generation of 70 million people, only probably 15 percent were truly involved in any form of activism, whether it be in the civil rights, anti-war, environmental, whatever the cause, and they used that as an excuse to show that they are not really, the numbers were not really there? It was just a small number in a big generation. PH (00:36:05): I do not know. What do you think about that? SM (00:36:10): Well, my thoughts on that is that I disagree with them. I disagree because when you take 15 percent of 70 million people, that is still a lot of people. PH (00:36:18): That is a lot of people. That is what I was going to say. SM (00:36:20): And you are dealing with a lot of different causes. PH (00:36:23): And that 15 percent made enough noise that they were tremendously heard. SM (00:36:27): Oh, yes. PH (00:36:34): You can light a match. You can light a match in a dark room and see that light. SM (00:36:43): This issue that is really important, I sense it today, and I do not know if you sense it amongst your students, but it really concerns me. It is this lack of trust that we seem to have in our leaders. I have been in college education for 25 years. I saw it in the (19)80s with students. I see it in the (19)90s. I see it today. A lack of trust in leaders, whether they be political leaders, corporate leaders, even ministers. No matter where a person is, that there has got to be something wrong with that person. They cannot be trusted. I am wondering if the effect that Lyndon Johnson had and Richard Nixon and I even had someone tell me in the interview process that the lack of trust began with Eisenhower. Eisenhower? Yeah, because of the U-2 incident. He lied to the American public. It was right on television. He knew he was lying. If you really want to go back, you can talk to Eisenhower, and then you can even go back to FDR if you want to for some things. PH (00:37:47): Yeah, for Pearl Harbor. SM (00:37:47): Yeah, for Pearl Harbor and then Truman had opportunities with... The question I am really asking is the issue of trust. PH (00:37:58): Trust in our trust in government, trust in our leaders, gosh, it is a huge problem that concerns me, too, that automatically there is a tendency to distrust. Does that come out of the (19)60s? Does that come out of Vietnam? Oh, well, you are just pointing that it goes back further, but it seems like it was so pronounced during the (19)60s, and that is a fearful thing. If we think that everybody who comes forward to try to run for office or to lead us should be distrusted, I mean, I do not know how we correct that. SM (00:38:41): You see that when you think of the periods that I am just describing, that the (19)60s was the period where this trust and lack thereof really evolved and developed. The question I am really trying to get at now is what had the boomers done with respect to their children in terms of passing on the qualities that they possessed in activism into the next generation? Have you seen that the children of the boomers are like them or not like them? PH (00:39:11): My wife says that when you are raising children, we have two boys, the notion of be careful not what you say to your children as much as what you show them by your actions, what you do, because that is what they are watching. That is what they are picking up. I do not think that answers your question, but I mean, this thing you are getting at about how do we restore some basic positive, I do not know the answer to that. It is very worrisome. SM (00:40:04): I am wondering whether boomers have actually sat down with their kids or their grandkids now and talk to them about the (19)60s and the (19)70s and what it meant to them, so that in their lives they can believe they are empowered as well to be change agents for the betterment of society. A question that has arisen through this process of these interviews is, what have the boomers done with their kids and why, in the generation that followed the boomers, they do not vote. And if you talk to them, "My vote does not count." [inaudible] PH (00:40:39): They stress their officials. They do not think it is going to do any good. And as I said, they are over-boomered. They have out-boomered the boomers, so maybe the boomers are negligent and culpable here for not giving enough of their time to sitting down with their kids and telling them. And why would that happen? I do not know. It is interesting that my own kids know about the (19)60s without... My 15-year-old, 5, 6, 7 years ago, he knew all about the (19)60s. Where did he learn it? If I said to him, "John, what are the (19)60s about?" He would go, "Hey, man, peace." Where did you get that, from television? I do not know, but the true values of the (19)60s, does he know about those? Maybe not enough. The true values of the (19)60s that I would think of is all these things we have been talking about, protesting. SM (00:41:41): Well, working with students as I do day in and day out, one thing that I have seen, at least the last 16 years at Westchester, is the fact that there is two ways that they look at the (19)60s. There is either, "I wish I lived in that period so that my life could be as exciting as," because there were causes and issues, and number two, "I am sick of hearing it. I am sick of hearing about nostalgia. You are trying to relive your past. Come on, we are in the future now. I am tired of hearing about it." And of course, these are all responses before 9/11, because we had a lot of the interviews that I have had are before 9/11 and the causes and now there seems to be, this is a major cataclysmic event in student lives. PH (00:42:23): What are you going to do with this? Put a book together about what the (19)60s stands for? SM (00:42:27): Yeah. It is based on these questions. It is oral histories and some taken people who were leaders at that particular time. That is why we got McGovern. We got some of the older leaders, so people that were in positions upon responsible at that particular time, certainly a lot of vets and civil rights people and then boomers, people in the anti-war movement and people in the intellectual community. It is a combination of different points of view. I am in the process now of trying to get more women, because I am finding, it is interesting, that when you look at the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement, men were in the major roles. Men mostly served, even though the nurses did serve in Vietnam. And I am working with Diane Carlson Evans now to try to make sure that I get a lot of women to be interviewed in the next several months. It is a composite, lots of views, because it is like any oral history interview. It is taking a person's feelings, people reading these oral histories of different individuals from different perspectives, and trying to get a grasp of some of the questions that I have been asking and- PH (00:43:34): Tucker. SM (00:43:34): ...trying to understand the period a little better. PH (00:43:38): Listen. There is a book that is somewhere around this house, but you probably know about it. It is a similar tack of what you are doing, except it was done a long, long time ago, 20, 25 years ago, right as the (19)60s were finishing up. It is called From Camelot to Kent State. SM (00:43:56): Oh, I have got that book. PH (00:43:57): And Craig McNamara, McNamara's son, is one of the interviews in the book. SM (00:44:02): Oh, wow. PH (00:44:05): And he is a great guy. He is McNamara's own son. He is proof that Robert McNamara has a heart because Craig McNamara, people who want to write off McNamara think he is the tin man searching for a heart. No-no. McNamara is much more complicated. McNamara is the fact that he betrayed his own predilections and his own desire. He grew up on the cusp of the country in the (19)30s at Berkeley, where there was all this intellectual ferment. He was idealistic. McNamara sold out. He sold out, first of all, in cars, but then he came to Washington, where the line really had to begin. The McNamara story is far more tragic than some soulless money idiot. People who think that that is what he is about or a soulless numbers cruncher, they do not get McNamara. They are all wrong. Craig, his son, is a walnut farmer in Winters, California, is a truly good human being. And when I say he is proof that McNamara has a heart, Craig McNamara, the son, the only son, could not have gotten his goodness from his mother alone. His mother alone, McNamara's wife, was a tremendous person, but Craig could not have, he had to get it equal parts or not maybe equal, but he had to get parts from his father and parts from his mother. I do not want to get off on that, but he is one of the interviews in that book and you should dust that book off and look at it again because I think some of what you are trying to do is, although that is mostly... That book, I think, is mostly interviews with just the boomers, just the protestors. SM (00:45:40): Yeah. Well, I have got a lot of older people and a lot of Vietnam vets. PH (00:45:43): You have got the range. SM (00:45:44): Got a long way to go. I think I am going to get David Eisenhower and I am hoping I can get Julie. David will interview, but Julie probably will not. And I want... PH (00:45:55): She is so protective, is not- SM (00:45:56): Yeah. David came to our campus and she has written me some letters a couple years back, and so I think she trusts me, but I got to get through David again to try to get to Julie. PH (00:46:08): He is much loved at Penn. SM (00:46:09): Is he? David? PH (00:46:10): He is in the Annenberg School of Communication and teaches courses on the presidency. SM (00:46:17): He is a great guy. PH (00:46:18): Well, the students love him. SM (00:46:22): I just admire the man. He came to our campus about eight years ago and that is been eight years now, but I had some correspondence with his wife, trying to get her to come, and that is before her dad died, and so she was really concentrating on her dad at that time. We have one final question then I am going to go into some individual personalities here, and you can comment on perceptions of these individuals. I have been talking a lot about the anti-war movement, but I want to get back to civil rights. I had an interview with John Lewis, a very good one, for about an hour. It was took three and a half hours to get the hour because he was a busy man, but we talked a little bit about the civil rights movement that he was involved in and the (19)60s as a whole. I would like your thoughts on the civil rights movement period from the (19)60s and a sense that this person, this person, Steve [inaudible] feels, that somewhat, the civil rights history and the civil rights movement is not, well, am I saying being forgotten? I do not see the sense of the leaders that we saw in the past to keep this issue alive. We have the issue of affirmative action, which has just become before the Supreme Court, but how important is civil rights today? PH (00:47:38): Well, you analyzed it very well, it seems to me. Vietnam superseded everything. Civil rights started. We talked about that synergy. Civil rights actually started before Vietnam because the Vietnam protest did not really take off until the spring of 1965, as America was taking over the war, and civil rights protest and civil rights movement was in deep, full swing before that, before 1965. Civil rights precedes Vietnam, but then Vietnam supersedes everything about the (19)60s. And your point is extremely well taken, that those leaders, just like John Lewis, who was willing to go down and get his head beaten in, in such charismatic power, dignity, quiet power, but for every John Lewis, you could name so many others, known and celebrated and not so celebrated. James Foreman of SNCC and so many, where are those people today, because the civil rights movement seems to have atrophied. That is my comment. I am just looking at my time. Let us get on with these other- SM (00:48:58): I would just like some comments or just your perceptions of the following individuals that are personalities from the (19)60s and early (19)70s. Tom Hayden. PH (00:49:07): Some of these I do not have as an informed feeling about as I would like to, so if I do not have it, I am just going to say that. Certainly, my knowledge is sketchy, like anyone else's. It has its holes and its gaps. Tom Hayden is a committed guy who did tremendous work and I think there is a line of integrity all the way through where he is now and where he was back then. SM (00:49:39): Lyndon Johnson. PH (00:49:42): A man who is so complicated. Robert Caro's biographies are powerful and good. Sometimes they miss the juice of Johnson, which seems to be this whole kaleidoscopic notion of Johnson was everything. There was a compassionate side of Johnson that was so truly invested in the civil rights movement. That has to be admired. He was a liar, a cheat. He was power diseased. He just bumps up so large. I am endlessly fascinated by Lyndon Johnson, fascinated, much more so than by McNamara. SM (00:50:24): Hubert Humphrey. PH (00:50:28): Tremendous man, tremendous man of conscience, of idealism, who again, held that line all the way through. Got politically neutered by Lyndon Johnson and lost his way, but that cannot undo the grocer's son from Minneapolis, who rose from mayor and whatever else he did, idealistically to really want to help downtrodden people, great admiration. SM (00:50:57): John Kennedy. PH (00:51:03): Not nearly as fascinating or as complicated as his predecessor, Lyndon Johnson. John Kennedy, a hugely bright man with a native intellectual ability, but spoiled, lazy, brave in the sense of what he endured with his physical problems and his heroism in World War II, but narcissistic, selfish, spoiled as a rich kid, and yet came out of that to be a leader. What Kennedy has about him in memory and history, it was style. It was this panache, it was this class, it was this finesse, it was this charism. All of those things are true and surface and thin, as opposed, in my mind, to this immense complication of someone like Lyndon Johnson. SM (00:52:26): Robert Kennedy. PH (00:52:30): Oh, tough, shrewd, hard, politically astute. That word ruthless, which was attached to him, was not undeserved, but who also had tremendous conscience and he changed after his brother died. The last five years of Robert Kennedy's life are something to behold. They are powerful and emotional and committed and I think that death sincered him, that he began to see the world in a powerfully different way. The last five years of his life are beautiful and to be admired. SM (00:53:17): Eugene McCarthy. PH (00:53:19): A guy who certainly had ambition, who had intellectual pride, who had ego, but who also was brave enough to stand up, to challenge his own party and was a committed guy. I feel that the problem with Eugene McCarthy is that he has never quite broken a sweat. He has always been a little bit on the fringe of not wanting to get in there, roll up his sleeves, and fight all the way, and part of that might be his intellectual [inaudible]. SM (00:53:58): Martin Luther King Jr, and if you could comment on his stand against Vietnam War. PH (00:54:03): I thought it was brave that the guy who was so leading the civil rights movement felt that if he were going to practice the integrity of what he believed, that he had to expand all his thinking toward all the injustices of Vietnam, which certainly were unjust to African Americans, but just unjust in a political worldview. And Martin Luther King is a great man and a great leader who had large, private, personal demons and flaws. He was one of God's sinful creatures, just like we all are, but none of those flaws and personal failings can override the great, great life. SM (00:54:56): Malcolm X. PH (00:54:58): Do not know enough about him. Would like to know more. What I do know is that he had a kind, it seems to me, an intellectual core of belief. That vision is something prominent and powerful to be paid attention to. I do not know. I would be interested in knowing about his anger and his hate. I have feelings that there was too much anger there. SM (00:55:35): The Black Power advocates, the Bobby Seales, the Huey Newtons, the Eldridge Cleavers, Kathleen Cleaver. PH (00:55:40): I met some of them and I interviewed some of them. I interviewed Bobby Seale years later when he was hawking barbecue sauce, which he still is. SM (00:55:48): Yeah, that is right. Yes. He was at Temple, or he was. PH (00:55:51): Yeah. Again, those guys were brave. They were angry as hell and they were brave and were all the things we talked about earlier, their excesses. They screwed up, but you have to look at the whole life and they helped change the status quo. A lot of them were scary dudes. Maybe they had a right to be scary dudes. SM (00:56:28): Any thoughts on the fact that they had certainly put a lot of pressure on Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and James Farmer and Roy Wilkins, that their time had passed? PH (00:56:38): Yeah. You have heard the thing that radicals can get along much better with conservatives rather than liberals. Radicals cannot stand liberals because liberals talk the talk. They talk the talk, but- SM (00:56:53): They do not walk the walk. PH (00:56:54): They do not walk the walk and the radical wants it right now, right fucking now, and do not give me the talk the talk. If you want to fight with me, put a conservative in here because I know where that guy stands and I will be able to duke it out with him, but the liberal is mouthing all of these nice pieties. The hell with those nice pieties. I think that is the problem with the Stokely Carmichaels and the Dr. Kings. SM (00:57:24): How about the Abbie Hoffmans and Jerry Rubins, the Yippies, so to speak, of that era? PH (00:57:29): They were crazy and narcissistic and selfish and weird, but the other part of it is that there was something genuine and real in them that they were not out just to make a buck. SM (00:57:47): Richard Nixon. PH (00:57:53): I guess he was very, very unbalanced and he did some good things, but was so burdened by his... He was so brought down by his neuroses and his pathologies that I see him not as a tragic figure. That word is too thrown around. McNamara is a tragic figure, basically because he betrayed his own ideals. In the Shakespeare construct, you have to have a great single tragic flaw. McNamara's single tragic flaw is this pridefulness, his hubris. Nixon is more a victim of his own pathologies, and in that sense, he is not a tragic character. You do not agree? SM (00:58:54): No, I do agree. I do agree. I do agree. Spiro Agnew. PH (00:58:58): Ted Agnew, a mean man, a mean, vindictive guy who probably did some good things. SM (00:59:12): Here we go. PH (00:59:21): He probably did some good things as the governor of Maryland, but overall is a shit. He is like Frank Sinatra. They were friends for a while. Frank Sinatra is this eternal mystery, it seems to me, of great art and shit life, the things that Sinatra did. Now, Agnew does not have any great art. Agnew is just a shit. Nixon is brought down by his pathologies and you can almost feel sorry for Richard Nixon. You cannot feel sorry for Agnew. You cannot feel sorry for Sinatra. I mean, we are mixing art and politics here. You can be uplifted every day of your life by listening to Sinatra's music. I listen to it around here all the time. Every day of your life, you can be uplifted by Sinatra's music, at what the human voice is capable of, and every day of your life, you can be brought to the floor by the awful things Sinatra did, which have come out. SM (01:00:31): In the women's movement, the Gloria Steinem and the Betty Friedan, your thoughts on their importance. PH (01:00:38): They are tremendously important. Friedan is a more powerful figure, more important figure than Steinem. Steinem took her abilities and her intelligence and went with it as far as she could go, and that was a lot and that was far, but Friedan is much more of a Moses. I wish I had a female image. Friedan is much more of a pioneer and has much more intellectual firepower. SM (01:01:17): Daniel Ellsberg. PH (01:01:21): A screwed up, really good man of conscience, who did things for ego and ambition and notoriety as well as conscience and realizing, "This thing stinks and I have to be the one to bring it forward," but a guy who also had tremendous personal problems and was undone by a lot of those personal problems. I met him. I have talked to him. I have met him. I know him. SM (01:01:54): Dr. Benjamin Spock. PH (01:01:55): Do not know enough about him other than what you know. SM (01:02:01): Muhammad Ali. PH (01:02:04): I have been around him. Ali is so curious to me. A guy who has a gift that you would think is based in intellect, but it is not because I do not think he... I am not talking about whether he is an educated man or he is not an, not an educated man. I am talking about his intellect. You would think that a man of such rapier-like wit, is so fast on his feet in the ring and in life, would be high intellectual power. I do not think he was. I think he was not particularly a smart man, but he has some kind of gift, some kind of instinct. Maybe it is a kind of animal instinct for protecting himself and giving lightning jabs, and he was very brave, too, and I believe that what he did in embracing Islam was based on conscience. SM (01:03:20): I can remember that when he was dethroned and he could not fight after staying on the Vietnam War, he came to Columbus, Ohio. I was working at Ohio University then and he went to the Ohio Theater downtown, gave a speech. They pay him $3,500, and he came on stage with $3,500 in cash and gave it back to the group that brought him in and said, "Use this to help the homeless or the poor." That is the kind of man he was, because he was a millionaire from his boxing. PH (01:03:52): Yeah, I love it. SM (01:03:53): But that was tremendous of what he had to say. PH (01:03:55): I love it. I love that story. SM (01:03:57): Noam Chomsky. PH (01:03:59): Do not know enough about him other than certainly a guy who has done all of the things we have talked about from the intellectual standpoint. SM (01:04:09): George McGovern. PH (01:04:12): A great guy, a great sense of humor, a guy who kept his feet on the ground in political Washington. Of course, ambition wanted to be president. He basically railroaded and sold out on his running partner, Tom Eagleton, when it was discovered that Eagleton had mental problems. He did not support him in backing like he should have, because we were all scared. You have to put that in context. The country was scared about mental problems. McGovern falls there, but McGovern is a World War II hero. McGovern is a man of conscience all through the Senate years. McGovern has a wonderful Midwestern, he is from Dakota, as you know, he has a wonderful stability. His feet are on the ground. He is not going to be swamped by these eggheads. So many of the people who came to Washington to work in the Kennedy administration got their heads turned by the glamor of Camelot. That, again, is that style, as opposed to substance. McGovern is a man of substance. SM (01:05:19): Timothy Leary. PH (01:05:21): I do not know enough about him other than he seems, in some ways, a creation of the media. SM (01:05:30): Ralph Nader. PH (01:05:32): A flawed, good man who was tremendously motivated to help change these things that are wrong in industry, but a guy who was so aesthetic that he was difficult to know. His personality is prickly and there was a hardiness there. He has been held back by his lack of people skills. You see, you get back to Lyndon Johnson. The juice of Lyndon Johnson is this immense people skill. He knows everything. He has a PhD in people. McNamara has an eighth-grade education in people. SM (01:06:26): George Wallace. PH (01:06:34): A demagogue, a fiery little guy who did some decent things for Black people early on, but was killed by his ambitions, and that he was a nasty guy, finally. SM (01:06:49): John Lennon, the Beatles, and John Lennon in particular. PH (01:06:59): Lennon is a great songwriter. I guess he is an immortal songwriter. He is the most talented of the four. His talent far out shines Paul McCartney's. He is an intellectual all the way. I guess I have pretty strong good thoughts about him, but in a funny, queer way, I have to tell you, I do not like the guy. SM (01:07:32): Just the music of the (19)60s, the Jimi Hendrix, the Janis Joplins, that whole era, The Rolling Stones. PH (01:07:40): I went back and tried to- SM (01:07:43): The impact the music of this period had on the generation. PH (01:07:46): Yeah, Vietnam was our first rock and roll war, as has been pointed out. You cannot think about the (19)60s without listening to the stoned, Benzedrine quality of that music. And Janis Joplin's cry and Jimi Hendricks's wail with that guitar are just so emblematic of the (19)60s. I mean, Joplin I have written about. I went back and tried to understand the legend of Joplin. I did this with the Washington Post about four or five years ago. She was so hurt, tormented by her own self-worth, and somehow or other... She dropped out of the University of Texas as a freshman. She did a couple semesters at Texas and the fraternity boards at UT Austin voted her the ugliest man on campus, ugliest pig man on campus. That was just one of her insults. SM (01:08:59): You think of the Phil Ochs and Joan Baezes and the Arlo Guthries. You remember those musicians coming to our campus and the impact that they had, just of the words, the music. There is so many people like that of that period. PH (01:09:14): Phil Ochs hanged himself. I love Arlo Guthrie. SM (01:09:17): I am going to close with just a couple terms here of the period. When you think of SDS, what do you think of? PH (01:09:23): I think of obviously the scary, radical edge of protest of the (19)60s. Not the edgiest and the scariest, but a group that was out there toward the fringe. SM (01:09:46): Counterculture. PH (01:09:51): Counterculture is a beloved word for me. I think everybody should have an element of counterculture in them. The streets that we live on here is too culture. I hope to hope be the counterculture of Colfax Road. SM (01:10:07): The Pentagon Papers. PH (01:10:10): Everybody knows what they are. The Pentagon Papers are one of the great treasure documents of the (19)60s, (19)70s, SM (01:10:19): Okay. Chicago Eight. PH (01:10:27): The Chicago Eight, Bobby Seale was one of them. You say Chicago Eight and you think of a courtroom and Judge Julius Hoffman and people being restrained in their seats as Bobby Seale was. That trial was unfair and it caused such commotion because they thought that those eight who were on trial were murderers and rapists. Well, they were not that at all. It was unfair. SM (01:11:03): Watergate. PH (01:11:06): Watergate. I interviewed a man who had been imprisoned in China all during Watergate and came out in the late (19)70s and he had been in a hole in China and he heard the word Watergate. He said, "What is it? Is it something to do with the dam? Is it something to do with water?" Watergate. You say Watergate and I can only see the buildings themselves along the Potomac, where we lived in Washington for 30 years. SM (01:11:38): Hippies and Yippies. PH (01:11:44): I like hippies better than Yippies. The instant connotations for me are yippies have too much money. SM (01:11:59): And how about the communes? PH (01:12:06): There were something that I always secretly wanted to try because I wanted to run around naked. SM (01:12:17): I am going to close out with a few personalities linked directly to Vietnam. William Westmoreland and Creighton Abrams, both of them. PH (01:12:25): Yeah. Okay. William Westmoreland, whom I knew a little, I mean, I have interviewed. Not a terribly bright man. A soldier, a strong soldier, but a guy who should not have been in charge of that war at such a critical time. He was not smart enough. Abrams was a bulldog of a warrior. SM (01:12:54): And Maxwell Taylor would be the other one. PH (01:12:56): Yeah, he was the soldier scholar and he was beloved by the Kennedys precisely for that reason because he could bring history and intellectual thought to it. I think he was a pretty good guy. I really do. I mean, he, of course, was caught up in the lies and the political. People like David Halberstam hate Maxwell Taylor. I do not really understand that. SM (01:13:17): General Cao Ky and President Thieu. PH (01:13:24): Cao Ky is a cowboy. He is all about his style of his dress and his daring exploits in the air and he is a little Hollywood guy who wants to be on the cover of People Magazine. General Thieu, he is more interesting and a person of more integrity in some ways for me. SM (01:13:49): Kent State. PH (01:13:52): You can only picture a slope of hill and a people on the ground and a girl reacting in horror, bent down over a body. Whoever heard of Kent State, Ohio the day before that happened? SM (01:14:13): Moratorium. PH (01:14:14): I was there in October of 1970 or was it (19)69? The moratorium is, the moratorium is- SM (01:14:30): I think it is (19)69. PH (01:14:30): Is October (19)69. I was there. Masses of people. SM (01:14:38): Gerald Ford. PH (01:14:42): A good guy. Lyndon Johnson's great comment, "The trouble with Gerry Ford is that he played too much football at Michigan without a helmet." Gerry Ford was a guy who used all of his abilities to their max, but did not have huge abilities as a thinker, but who was skillfully pretty good in the House of Representatives, pretty good as a Congressman. I am being too flip. Good for the years that he was president. We needed somebody. We needed a Midwesterner to help us be okay after Nixon. SM (01:15:27): April 30th, 1970 and April 30th, 1975, April 30th, 1970, being the Cambodia invasion, which eventually led to Kent State on May 4th, and April 30th, (19)75 when the helicopter [inaudible] PH (01:15:42): The people trying to climb the ladders into this helicopter. SM (01:15:44): Yes. Get your thought on those two. PH (01:15:46): Well, I can picture the second one much better. The Cambodian invasion? No, and it leads to Kent State, but the April 29th, which is my birthday, and April 30th of (19)75, those helicopters lifting off from the Embassy roof, it is all about our failure there and human desperation and us leaving this country behind and we are trying to claim victory, but we know we have lost. I mean, it is a terrible moment. SM (01:16:21): The Berrigan brothers, Philip and Daniel. PH (01:16:25): Great men and we talked about them and models of conscience and heart, and both artists in their own right, Dan more than Phillip. SM (01:16:39): And Ramsey Clark. PH (01:16:43): There should be a thousand Ramsey Clarks in Washington DC and there are not many. SM (01:16:50): And of the books that have been written on the (19)60s or the books that were written during the (19)60s, what would be the books that you think are the most influential and important? PH (01:17:03): I cannot do it, Steve, because I would leave out the ones that I think of. Michael Harris's Dispatches is one of the great books in the (19)60s. I will have to email you. SM (01:17:16): How about The Making of a Counter Culture with Theodore Roszak and the Greeting of America? PH (01:17:20): Yeah. SM (01:17:21): Those are very important books. Final question, and that is, it is on the boomers themselves again. Are boomers in middle age or approaching old age now? Are they doing what they did when they were young or have they given in. Like a lot of people said during the (19)60s and early (19)70s, "When you guys get older, you are going to change." Remember that, no one over 30 that Jerry Rubin did? PH (01:17:50): Yeah. SM (01:17:51): Are the boomers still idealistic or have they just gone into the society and raising families? PH (01:17:59): It is so hard. Yeah. It is so hard to maintain who you are and your ideals. SM (01:18:04): That is all right. Idealism continued. PH (01:18:06): It is so hard to maintain it. I guess I will answer it personally. I have said that on my best days as a writer, I am doing something priestly with a small p. I went into seminary and religious life out of some misformed, misguided ideas, but still idealistic. And the goal was to try to make the world better and to help people. On my best days as a writer, I am doing that. And the continuum, I feel, continues with the spectrum, with the teaching I do at Penn, on my best days as a teacher of non-fiction. I am teaching these kids to be better human beings and I am maintaining that idealism. SM (01:18:53): And finally- PH (01:18:54): You said finally a minute ago. SM (01:18:56): Well, this is it. Is there a question that I did not ask? PH (01:18:57): No. SM (01:18:57): You bastard. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paul Hendrickson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hendrickson, Paul, 1944- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource College teachers; English teachers; Authors; Journalists; Hendrickson, Paul, 1944--Interviews Description An account of the resource Paul Hendrickson is an author, journalist, and educator. He is a senior lecturer in the English Department at the University of Pennsylvania. He was a former member of the writing staff at the Washington Post. Hendrickson is the author of two books, The Living and The Dead and Sons of Mississippi. Hendrickson attended St. Louis University for his Bachelor's degree in English, and ennsylvania State University for his Master's degree in English. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003-11-07 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.2a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.2b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-01 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 80:31 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1aa21aa3f99e3e8a593d0c8ae3ed2a55.jpg e380e843d301d64434839e8e7d1f5206 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/18a92e0007c3c534daeb7d555f3582e9.mp3 c0338efa7d8ccb4376a5e09e1cbbfd3e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Paul Krassner Date of Interview 2010-03-10 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 179:00 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Paul Krassner is an author, journalist, comedian, and the founder, editor and publisher of the the Realist magazine. One of the major figures of the 1960s counterculture scene, Krassner is a founding member of the Yippies and the member of Ken Kesey’s Merry Pranksters. He published several books including his autobiography Confessions of a Raving, Unconfined Nut: Misadventures in Counter-Culture. He studied Journalism at Baruch College. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Paul Krassner is an author, journalist, comedian, and the founder, editor, and publisher of the Realist magazine. One of the major figures of the 1960s counterculture scene, Krassner is a founding member of the Yippies and the member of Ken Kesey’s Merry Pranksters. He published several books including his autobiography Confessions of a Raving, Unconfined Nut: Misadventures in Counter-Culture. He studied Journalism at Baruch College. Keywords 1968 Democratic Convention; Abbie Hoffman; Abe Peck; AIM; Allen Ginsberg; Anita Hoffman; Arthur Chickering; Avery Corman; Barry Freed; Bayard Rustin; Black Panther Party; Black Power Movement; Bob Fass; Bobby Kennedy; Burt Caen; City College of New York; Chicano movement; CIA; Clark Kerr; Community Friends; Conspiracy; Dan White trial; Daniel Ellsberg; Dave Bellinger; David Horowitz; Dr. Albert Ellis; Dr. Rosalind Petchesky; Ed Sanders; Edmund Muskie; Eisenhower; Ernie Kovacs; FBI; Festival of Life; George Carlin; George Lincoln Rockwell; George McGovern; George Will; Harry Reasoner; Hippies; House of American Activities Committee; J. Edgar Hoover; Jack Kerouac; Jeff Miller; Jerry Rubin; John Carlos; John Kennedy; John McCain; John Sinclair; Jonah Raskin; Judy Gumbo; Ken Kesey; Kent State; Kim Phuc; Kurt Vonnegut; Lenny Bruce; Levitate the Pentagon; Lyle Stuart; Mae Brussell; Mark Rudd; Martin Luther King Jr.; Mary Vecchio; Merry Pranksters; Miri Savio; Mk-Ultra ; My Lai massacre; Napalm; Neal Cassidy; Ned Lamont; Newseum; Newt Gingrich; Norman Mailer; Osama Bin Laden; Patty Hearst; Peter Max; Phil Ochs; Proletarian; Rabbi Hesche ; Ram Daas; Rex Weine ; Richard Nixon; Robert Scheer; Robin Morgan; Ronnie Davis; SDS; Stewart Brand; Stu Albert; Super Joe ; Tet Offensive; The Independent; The Realis ; Timothy Leary; Tom Hayden; Truthdig; Twinkie Defense; U2; Vietcong; Vietnam; Vietnamese; Wall Street Dollar Bill event; Walter Cronkite; Watergate; WBE; Weatherman; Women’s Movement; Wounded Knee; Yippies; Young Lords; Zippies. Blacks and Jews; Anti-Semitism and anti-blackness; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr; Nineteen sixties Generation Era; George McGovern; Drugs; Yippie Movement; Divorce Rate; Hippie; Yippie. Subject LCSH Authors, American--20th century;Journalists; Comedians; Publishers; Realist (New York, N.Y.); Krassner, Paul--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Paul Krassner Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Carrie Blabac-Myers Date of interview: 10 March 2010 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:03 SM: Testing 123 ̶ 00:07 PK: Exists and so um, I look back and I am very pleased. You know, I am disappointed in the sense that all the stuff that I have wanted to accomplish I have not or not yet and, and you know most people know you for what You have done and you know yourself somehow for what you still want to do. 00:34 SM: You have done so much what do you still want to do? 00:37 PK: Well, you know, I am going to be seventy-eight in a few days. 00:43 SM: Well, congratulations, happy birthday! 00:46 PK: And I have and so I am working on my first novel. And as a friend, Avery Corman, told me, he wrote Oh, God! and Kramer Versus Kramer. He wrote his very first article in The Realist, we became friends. And I said to him, boy, it is really hard, writing fiction, you have to have to make stuff up. And he said, "Come on Paul, you have been making up stuff all your life." And I said, "Yeah, but that was journalism." So it is a different kind of challenge. You know, I could just describe, I did not know, I could describe Abbie Hoffman by just describing what I already knew. And I want to try to avoid ever describing anybody at having chiseled features, which is one of the description clichés, I cannot help but notice. 01:48 SM: One of the things that I think you are proud of this is what the FBI said of you, you know what I am saying here, and that is what is the inspiration for the title of your book. The FBI said, "To classify Krassner as a social rebel is far too few he is a nut, a raving unconfined nut." Are you very proud? You are pretty proud of that aren't you? 02:11 PK: I guess, sort of like people were proud of being on, like Daniel Ellsberg, said he was proud to be on the enemies list. You know, I mean, my mother was not happy about that. But it was so absurd but also significant because they were trying to, you know, this was written on a poison pen letter so as if it came from a college student complaining about the articles that Life Magazine had published about. And so that was the context of it. But you know, and they were doing that, you know, character assassination, which did not bother me so much except that is not what taxpayer money goes to do. And as you can could read in my autobiography, it escalated the next year, character assassination to what was virtually a literal assassination. When the FBI put out a leaflet with, it had a huge swastika on it. It had the four black faces. It had photographs of four people. One was Mark Rudd, who was the head of the SDS, Students for a Democratic Society. Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, cofounders of the yippies, the Youth International Party as was I in the fourth corner there. And the headline was Lampshade! Lampshade! Lampshade! And it was essentially something in their files which, and the file was trying to create rifts between Blacks and Jews. This was the FBI's wonderful work behind the scenes. And in the copy below that headline, they talked about how Jews have been oppressing Negros, for so long but we know what happened years ago so we must, these leaders must be eliminated. And then they have to get permission. This is all from my FBI files. This was Washington, and they had to get permission from the New York office. These were J. Edgar Hoover's DuPont assistants who approved it. In their approval of it gave instructions to the New York office, make sure that, and I am paraphrasing but the essence of it, make sure that these pamphlets or leaflets are not traceable to the Bureau. But how they described it the word they used was that these leaflets facetiously suggesting the elimination. And so, you know, it was as if some militant black militant black picked up this flyer in Florida he now he might have been a little bit off kilter. But if he had assassinated one of us the FBI defense would be, we said it was facetious. So, so anyway, so even though I got a book title out of it, the "Confessions of a Raving, Unconfined Nut" but you know, it was it was really proletarian that was what they were doing. 06:16 SM: I would say and you know that we know the workings of J. Edgar Hoover but and when they ask you this, when you looked at the relationship between Jewish Americans and African Americans over the years in the (19)50s, the (19)40s, the (19)50s and into the (19)60s, it was one of the strongest relationships ever in American history. Because they understood, each group understood the rights and you have to fight for rights and there is prejudice against various groups based on your religion and ethnic background. Do you believe there was some sort of jealousy there too? That even though you were looked upon the four of you as maybe radicals in their eyes, there was this anti-Semitism too that was there and maybe anti-black, that to these two groups working together no matter where they were found have to be divided. 07:14 PK: That is right exactly right, divide and conquer. You know anybody who, who would question authority. My daughter once said she when she was growing up, she said, I really thought my Dad and his friends were paranoid. But as I grew up, I began to understand that there was a police state involved. And so you know, a lot of the stuff that is coming out now are just continuations of what, because of technology, you know, has turned you know, say with cell phones or video cameras. What was once used for porn and entertainment is now used as evidence. So, the scandals are coming out now. You know as Ken Kesey once said to me, you know the spirit of truth. And it is that classic metaphor of there being grass pushing its way through the cement blocks. 08:38 SM: It is amazing because when you think of the strongest relationship in the anti-war movement, it was the relationship between a Black man and a Jewish man. And that was Rabbi Heschel and Martin Luther King Jr. They were the united arm and arm and they were both united in their effort to end war in Vietnam. And actually they were both criticized within their religious communities. They were they were visionaries. One of the early questions I asked of all of our guests, or all the interviewees. 09:08 PK: I like that, guests! Hah! 09:11 SM: Well, interviewees. I actually sent that I actually said that in an office once down in New York City, and she said, I am your guest, you are not my guest, and that was because I was in her office done at NYU. But the question that I am asking is, George Will oftentimes whenever he gets a chance, he'll take shots at the (19)60s generation or that era, as the reason for a lot of the problems we have in our society and you can go to any book that he has written and he'll have an essay, when Newt Gingrich came into power in (19)94, he made some very strong comments against that era around the time that George McGovern was running for president and that particular period, kind of criticizing that time and that Generation. And then when you read your book and your books, some of the quotes from John McCain when he talks about Hillary Clinton and Mike Huckabee, in his comments on drugs, and, and also David Horowitz and I saw this in where he claims that, and you know, this is from an article that was in the web said that "Although he likes Krassner personally, he believes that he in the yippies must shoulder much of the blame for the crisis of AIDS and drug addiction. It was one of it was one long incitement against America against all the guidelines and morals and mores and help people make it through life." He said, "The yippie movement, and I think the yippies in the end were a terribly destructive force." Now he is only talking about yippies here, but as George Will and Gingrich, they are talking about the generation. 10:53 PK: Oh, yeah. 10:54 SM: Just your thoughts on all these commentaries, that the drug culture that break up with the American family, the extensive divorce rate, a concept of all these "isms", the concept of the Welfare State all these things. Let us just blame it on the lack of respect for authority. 11:11 PK: Well, yeah, I think that (19)60s bashing is going to be in the Olympics in a few years. It is you know, it is scapegoating, in retrospect. And I have written a few a few things about it, as I see the pattern, and, and what sometimes it is not even conscious scapegoating is just sloppy journalism. 11:37 SM: Mm hmm. 11:38 PK: You know, it is kind of shorthand. An example of that was a linking of a New York politician Ned Lamont, the writer was saying that he was, that blinding him as a politician running for some office was, not the same as and, the two people he linked was Osama bin Laden or Abbie Hoffman and I thought well there you know, talk about strange bedfellows! And the line I used to differentiate between them was that Bin Laden a plane to fly into the Pentagon and Abbie, he only wanted to levitate it. 12:41 SM: Yes. Yeah. One of the questions I wanted to ask you and I have read a lot of in your biography, but could you talk a bit about your college days? Obviously, you were a child prodigy, you were on the stage of Carnegie Hall as a very young kid. And I understand from reading about your background, how you went in another direction. But were your college years in the (19)50s, did they have any kind of an influence on you? 13:15 PK: It just intensified my obsession of what I was going to do with my life. It was just so important because I saw people, a lot of people just unhappy or angry about their work, but you know that and yet they wanted to support their families. And so I really just so I was not happy in politics, did not know what I would major in and second semester I took a leave of absence. And went every day in the afternoon, I have afternoon job and I would go to a vocational library and read about different vocations. And then through a series of chain links, I ended up in my senior year in college working for The Independent of course, the paper run by Lyle Stuart. 14:28 SM: And the college? No, no, no. No, I mean the name of the college. 14:33 PK: Excuse me? 14:34 SM: I am just putting it in for the record where you went to school. 14:38 PK: Oh, oh! CCNY, City College of New York. 14:41 SM: Okay. 14:41 PK: And I started working for him, this was in my senior year. And I just, I realized I would rather work there than at the New York Times. I mean because it was an anti-censorship to paper in a long tradition from Thomas Paine to [unintelligible] and I was just thrilled to have, even though I was just at the start stuffing envelopes. And so it was, it was, I just felt so grateful to have landed in in that position. I ended up becoming the managing editor. In college, really my mind was wandering a lot. You know, I remember a couple of things, one was in Philosophy 101 the definition of philosophy was the rationalization of life. And, and the other was that some anthropologist said happiness is having had as little separation as possible between your work and your play and everything else is kind of a blur. I mean, I know I got through one course not having paid attention for the whole semester, but the night before the final exam, I studied everything that was in italics in the textbook. So that you know, it was not it was nothing that I... I was the assistant manager of the basketball team. I think I wanted that really, I was one of those jackets. A silk jacket, a sports jacket. So and I left college, I was already working there. I knew what I wanted. I did not want to have any job where I needed a degree, because to me that was false snobbery. I mean, I do not mean that, you know, somebody is going to medical school. But, but for me personally, I did not. And, and so, in my, I would pick, I needed one three credit course, to get my degree and I just walked out of the class one day. And it was liberating. Although, you know, it was incredible to my family. And, but, you know, I had to live my own life. It is that simple. 17:51 SM: Mm hmm. Well, it is interesting because some of the biggest moments the (19)60s are linked to you. At least anybody who cares about the (19)60s who grew up in the (19)60s or who grew up in that era. It is the how the term "yippie" became a term. And of course, we'll talk about the Twinkie Defense later on in the interview, but I have Jerry Rubin's book. I remember buying that book in 1971 when I was in grad school and reading it in the summertime and him saying in the book that the term "yippie" they were in a meeting someplace with a lot of people, they did not know what to name their group and so somebody in the background was yelling "yippie". And so that was how it became the group became "the yippies." Well, that is misinformation from do it? Because when you look at your book and read your background, that was a meeting that you and Abbie Hoffman had along with Abbie's wife. 18:52 PK: I have read I have read several different versions of that but you know, I was there as a friend as an activist, and as a journalist, so I made note of it. And as a journalist, I knew that you need a ̶ who, what, when, where and how. 19:18 SM: Right. 19:18 PK: And so I just had this brainstorm trying to, and this was on the afternoon of December 31st 1967. And it was at the apartment on the lower east side of Abbie and Anita Hoffman. And there were about maybe eight or nine more activist friends, there gathered, and, the essence of what we were talking about was going as a counter convention in the summer of (19)68, Chicago when the Democrats would have their convention. And it was the Vietnam War was bipartisan, but it just happened to be under the democrat's watch at that point. And as Abbie once said, we do not want to go to Miami in the off-season anyway. So I was trying to think of Bob Bass was one of the original yippies, he said that no, he said this later, I am getting ahead of myself. The San Francisco the "diggers" had a march through the streets, a funeral called "the death of hippies" because it had definitely become you know a media term and they wanted to call themselves "Free Americans," which was bizarre because when the hostages were released from Iran, the first thing when they went to in America was get a haircut and it would be silly for hippies, you know, to hear somebody yelling at them, you know, get a haircut, you "Free American" but it was an oxymoronic epithet. So I was thinking of a different, something that would rhyme with hippies seemed natural, and then I was trying to think of, of a an acronym that you know, would represent what the event was going to be for us, one of the original, the folk singer, Phil Ochs, had described the mood we wanted to bring to Chicago. He said a demonstration to turn you on, not turn you off. 22:34 SM: Yeah, it is a quote I have here. Yes. 22:38 PK: And so came up with "Youth" because it was a generational thing at that time, "international" because this kind of evolutionary jump in consciousness was around the globe and so in Paris in Mexico and Czechoslovakia, the same rebellion against repression was in process and so "international" was in the middle and then "P" for party which was perfect because of both like a political party and have a lot of fun party. Excuse me for one second. 23:22 SM: Yeah. 23:32 PK: I thought my wife came in. So, Let us see where was I? And so the initials for that would be "Y.I. and P" for the acronym and so out of that derived the "yippies" and so at our first press conference as a result of that, the Chicago papers had a headline: "Yipes, the Yippies are Coming" and so, you know, we could see that the myth developing. We would hear from, you had to open an office, we were hearing from groups on campuses, you know, who, who finally, had a name for what they represented. Because all I did was, was come up with a name, which was essentially a shout of joy. So I did not even make up the name. But just a name a phenomenon that already existed. And this came from that had originally been an adversarial relationship between the hippies and between the straight politicians, political activists, and so that the hippies thought that straight politicos were playing into the administrations chance by protesting against the war and the politicos, thought the hippies were being irresponsible because they were just sitting around in the park smoking pot but each one came to realize as it was a kind of cross fertilization of the stoned hippies and the straight politicos you know, seeing each other at maybe civil rights demonstrations or antiwar rallies and hippies began to see.. the straight politicos saw that the hippies, that they had a smoke-in at the park, that they were committing civil disobedience to protest against an unjust law and the hippies could see in turn, they could see a linear connection ultimately from putting someone behind bars for smoking weed and they could see that that connection to dropping Napalm. 26:50 SM: Yes. 26:50 PK: On kids on the other side of the world. And the connection was, it was the ultimate extension of the dehumanization, of punishment without crime. And o in each whether it whether it was young people imprisoned for giving themselves harmless pleasure and people turning the other one other way, not seeing the terrible injustices and expanded ultimately to people turning away from the war in Vietnam, you know and being gung ho about it. 27:47 SM: That is a beautiful description, I read a part of like that in the book too but this linear connection is very important to hear because even when you look at the 1968 convention in Chicago, correct me if I am wrong, the yippies and people who were around that group looked upon it as the convention of death. Because we were killing Vietnamese and we historically had not talked about the people we were killing. We are thinking about the people that are losing lives from our nation, which is equally important, our troops, but certainly not a whole lot about the Vietnamese people themselves and you thought about it. The group is, as I have got here "The Festival of Life" so you are making a connection even there, you know, changing the name for Youth International Party and now going to the convention for challenging the convention of death. Is that correct? 28:48 PK: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. And we were going to do it, not just music instead of speeches, but what happened in Woodstock the following year was our original vision and we thought we would have a booths around the perimeter with, you know, information on the draft and information on the drug and so it was, so it really was a it really captured the attention of people who, you know, we would pull stunts, like throwing money off the balcony onto the floor of the factory today. 29:52 SM: Mm hmm. 29:54 PK: But then there would be a press conference outside and we would talk about the relationship between Wall Street and the war. 30:09 SM: Yeah, yeah, a couple of the antics that people define them as antics. Levitating the Pentagon in (19)67. The Wall Street where the dollar bills were thrown out. Jerry Rubin had one you may remember it and do it where he went into the bank. Do you remember that scene? 30:29 PK: He went into the bank, and what? 30:33 SM: He went into the bank, and he asked if he could use the restroom. And they said, get out of here, we do not like your types in the bank. And he said, I going to go to the bathroom. And they said, no, you got to leave. And he says, if you do not let me go in the bathroom, I will go right on the floor. And he did. 30:54 PK: If I knew about that, I forgot it. 30:56 SM: Yeah, it was and it was do it. It was because it was linked to his book, "Do It." So I am remembering things from back when I read this book a long time ago, but it is kind of a; you guys had a very a lot of energy I remember. You have a lot of energy and in some respects, you determined. Why do you feel that we are not talking to the Newt Gingrich's in the Mike Huckabees, and John McCain's of the world but what do you think some of the liberals have today I have interviewed some who, when I go at the end of the interview, and I mentioned Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin and the hippies, and they just saw that was nothing. And these are liberals that were in either, they might have been an SDS, the Women's Movement and the Black Power Movement. I am not talking about 31:47 PK: Well, you know, we got a lot of attention that they did not. So there was a resentment out of the new left. You know we were having fun and the new left was kind of serious. I mean we were serious too, but humor was our vehicle. 32:14 SM: Paul, if I were to ask you to give them a quick definition of the definition of a hippie the definition of a yippie and then the definition of a zippy, how would how would they differ? 32:30 PK: A hippie and a yippie and a what? 32:32 SM: A Zippy. 32:33 PK: Okay. 32:35 SM: And please speak up too. 32:37 PK: Okay. A hippie and the name came from San Francisco Chronicle columnist Burt Caen and (C.A.E.N) and from, I guess hipster or hip itself and essentially, it was to describe young people who, especially males, who were letting the hair grow longer and wearing colorful clothes and smoking marijuana and they were stead fullness and sense of community and sex, drugs and music was their Holy Trinity, but and at the core of this psychedelic revolution was a spiritual revolution. As Lenny Bruce said, people were leaving the church going back to God. 33:58 SM: [Laughs] 33:58 PK: But I was thinking of that as we speak because of that is what is happening with the Catholic Church now. 34:05 SM: Oh, I know. 34:09 PK: So let us see, where was I? Oh, ok so a yippie was, oh now something comes something I was going to say before, Bob Fass who had a nightly show, all night show on WBAI radio in New York and his description was a yippie is a hippie whose been beat on the head with a cop's billy club and I would say a yippie was a someone who saw without even articulating, someone who knew that the right to smoke marijuana was related to the right to protest against a war, or it was just a sense of freedom and in terms of LSD, it was one of the drug of choice at the time. It was originally started by the CIA in the hope of an exploited I should say not distorted in the hope that it could be used as a drug of control. And the methodology, especially with people, which is what they did with their Mk-Ultra experiment, on unsuspecting volunteers. There was a process of de-programming and then reprogramming them in whatever way they wish. And what happened in the (19)60s was that the young people who experimented with LSD, and for the most part, the experiment was a success, one vehicle of connecting one conscious with one's unconscious, or subconscious and so they were able to program themselves to deprogram themselves from mainstream culture, which has so many inhumane aspects to it and reprogram themselves, not only reprogram themselves to a more humane value system, but to practice it it. To practice the alternative. Whether it was forming communes, or playing music or any of the arts it was it was a kind of utopian vision, but it was not just a fantasy. Which is why I am still doing research into the government had, what level the government had with wanting to neutralize that movement because think tanks saw how it affected the economy. And so I am supposed to meet up the former FBI agent who was in what they called the hippie squad, and where they among have other things they learned how to roll a joint. The better to infiltrate a commune. So, okay, so hippie, yippie, zippie. 34:12 SM: Yippie? Zippies were the latter group. 38:44 PK: Okay, so in 1972 when at the republican convention in Miami, I think both conventions were held there that year. And there were some people and I was in California I was not there at that time. And getting out an issue of The Realist which by the late queen of conspiracy researchers Mae Brussell (M.A.E B.R.U.S.S.E.L.L) and publishing an article, a front page article by her on the relationship, all of the implications of and the conspiracy behind the Watergate break in. And this was at a time when the President and the media was still saying it was just a caper or a third rate burglary. So you know, in my own function it was to stay there and get that out and not go to Miami. So there was some of the younger people from the Lower East Side mostly who they started calling out Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin's age difference. And they called themselves the Zippies. And, and they were, and it was, you know, and they would making bread while you know, while the yippies were trying to make friends with elderly people there, the zippies would kind of taunt them and it was a very tense atmosphere between them. The zippies later of course named themselves the yippies because obviously, you had a better brand. 41:19 SM: Would say that the, the issue with the zippies and the yippies was like, in some of the other, even in the civil rights movement where the Black Panther Party challenged Dr. King, Bayard Rustin, civil rights leaders that your time has passed, they were just basically telling Abbie and Jerry and the others your time has passed. Is that what they were trying to do? 41:43 PK: Oh, yeah, that that they were trying to say your time is passed but the other side of that coin was our time has come and so you know, they were creating dissension rather than cooperate. 42:02 SM: Yeah, one of the things that is when you look at the people that were in the yippies, they were, you know, you were in there. Jonah Raskin who I interviewed was in there. He has written some great books, and ones on Abbie. Obviously, Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin, Robin Morgan, on the biggest names in women's studies. You had John Sinclair, Stu Albert, who I am learning more about Ed Sanders and Judy Gumbo and others. These are major people. How did you ever link up? You know, like, what I am really trying to get at Paul. You are a person who graduates trying to figure out who are and what you are going to become. You become a comedian. You get to you have that particular what when was the first time you met these people and you knew they were your friends and you had similar ideas and you hung out together? When did all that begin? 43:02 PK: Well, I was living on the Lower East Side now known as the village. And other folks I knew, including Abbie Hoffman, including Bob Fass would have a weekly meeting with called the Community Friends because we were not going to be the community with the milk of mines and I do not know some, some rhetoric like that, but it was just a group of people who and I became friends with them in the process. And then especially, I became friends with Abbie and Anita Hoffman and, and they were just two blocks away from me and so you know, we had a lot of dinners together and movies and I think the moment that my friendship with Abbie was cemented was when Abbie, I am sorry, Lenny Bruce had died the previous year. And I told that Abbie that he was the first one who really made me laugh since Lenny died and Abbie said, oh, really, he was my God. And so you know, there was, that was the only sense in which I believe in an afterlife. The posthumous network. 44:58 SM: Let me switch my tape here. 45:04 PK: Okay, I got my lemonade. 45:09 SM: I hear you live in a very hot area. Is that true? 45:13 PK: Yeah, this is Desert Hot Springs and the weather sometimes you know is like one hundred and twenty degrees. 45:23 SM: No humidity though. 45:25 PK: But I will tell you I would I never used to like air conditioning but I grew to appreciate it. 45:34 SM: Yeah. 45:35 PK: And, and my wife Nancy and I had just moved from Venice Beach and right you know a block away from the ocean. 45:43 SM: Mm hmm. 45:43 PK: So going from the ocean to the desert was a real what was the word I want? 45:53 SM: Culture shock? 45:54 PK: Yes, it had a certain culture shock, yeah that is the word. 46:00 SM: It is amazing how we use that term a lot. Even in passing. Yeah, and we were talking about these personalities and you getting to know Abbie. Now, before we get back to these personalities that were in the yippies, Lenny Bruce has a little boy growing up in the (19)50s I knew all about Lenny Bruce. And then the only thing I can remember as a little boy was I think he was refused? Ed Sullivan would not allow him on his show because he could not predict what he would say or something? I remember hearing that. And that he was way ahead of his time that and here you are a person who was involved in editing his what his biography? 46:52 PK: Yes, I was the editor of his autobiography. It was not it was not ghostwritten but Playboy hired me as his editor. 47:03 SM: What is amazing is when I think of as a little boy again now in the (19)50s and the people that there is two people that come to mind to me that I wish I knew more about its Lenny Bruce and Ernie Kovacs because they both died young, they were both very talented and I think sometimes they were misunderstood. What was it about Lenny that he was so ahead of his time you were one of his closest friends and he kind of pushed you into being a comedian too. He was kind of a mentor or a role model for you. What was it about Lenny? 47:48 PK: Well, he saw through the bullshit and aimed for the truth and ultimately, he just was going to have the same freedom in nightclubs that he had in his living room. But he was his antenna, his antenna was always out. A lot of the comedians I have met George Carlin is certainly like this. 48:18 SM: Oh one of my favorites. 48:22 PK: His mind was always going and going and going, you know, it was just his nature. It was almost as if he had no control over it. So Lenny really just wanted to make people laugh. He was not trying to change them. He, you know, when I asked him about that, he would say, well, you know, maybe they get changed for twenty minutes and then they were home and they were into something else, you know, so he had no delusions about that. But he just wanted to communicate without compromise, which is what I wanted to do with The Realist. And in fact, when Newsweek did a story, they quoted Steve Allen, who was the first subscriber, they quoted him as saying The Realist was the periodical equivalent of Lenny Bruce. So the connection was there. With what each of us did was did so, you know when we got together it was not small talk, you know, you would start several steps ahead. 49:43 SM: Can you honestly say, Paul, that if it was not for Lenny Bruce, you would never have been able to produce the Realist? 49:54 PK: I think it is more [laughs]no, because I started in 1958 and I did not meet him until 1959. Okay, and Lenny would have many would have surrendered his talent with or without me. The only thing I helped inadvertently helped him get arrested was when he saw the use of language in The Realist when I interviewed somebody. The example specifically was the late Dr. Albert Ellis who had in our interview, he talked about the semantics of profanity and saying that if fucking was a good thing, then, if you want to say something nasty to somebody you should say "unfuck you." And the first time I met Lenny, I had an advanced copy of that issue which I gave to him and he looked at it. This was in his hotel room in the theater district at the time, we were in New York. And he and he was looking through it. And he saw that, that dialogue, and he said, do you get away with that? Of course at the time, most virtually all magazines were not would have dashes or asterisks instead of spelling out the word. And so and I said yeah, it talks about the Supreme Court's recent decision then that something was obscene if it had prurient appeal. It appealed the prurient interests and had no social positive, social redeeming social value that was the phrase. And Lenny would say: prurient? What does that mean? And he got out of the suitcase that was on the bed in his hotel room, a large, an unabridged dictionary, which he had carried with him where he had event ̶ He was a mono-didactic south pawed semanticist as was George Carlin the difference between them being that improvised a lot whereas George Carlin wrote down and memorized everything he did. But the point of view was extremely similar. So you know both in making fun of organized religion and political leaders and Lenny's arrests were ostensibly for obscenity but actually for having this powerful hysterical targets but you know there was a law against obscenity there was not a law against blasphemy. And so that was when Lenny had only used euphemism by spring before that and he started using the language that anyway, he was not trying to be a martyr and he would use the language not the way of so many comics do today we as an all-purpose, noun, adjective, adverb, verb, epithet, whatever. 54:06 SM: Mm hmm. 54:06 PK: And so I am not saying that is a bad thing except it is like sort of a reduction of vocabulary but it takes the edge off, you know the magic powers of four letters in certain combinations. 54:26 SM: Yeah, I remember reading; you admit to Tallulah Bankhead the actress. Something about the use of that term, a four-letter word and somebody used the term food. 54:40 PK: Oh, no, no, no, this was Norman Mailer. Okay. The first time I met him and he and in The Naked and the Dead, he had used the word a "fub", (F.U.B) as a euphemism. 54:55 SM: Oh, okay. That is it. 54:59 PK: And I asked him if it was true that Tallulah Bankhead said to him, oh, yes, you are the young man who doesn't know how to spell 'fuck' and his response was something like, oh, yes, then you are the actress who doesn't know how. That is the background of that. 55:32 SM: When you were, I have a question here about The Realist too. But when The Realist was getting started to keep it going, you needed to raise funds and that is what that poster came in 'fuck communism' was not that the uh, you sold them to raise some funds to keep the paper going? 55:52 PK: Oh, no, no. Well, the background of it was just it was just from gone with the art director of Mad and did a column called Modest Proposal and he wanted to give me a gift, this poster and he has the word "fuck," but he did not know what the object of the verb would be and he would think about "Fuck America." And it kind of made me uncomfortable because the paradox of America was that we have the freedom to express ourselves as to how lousy the government was doing such as waging wars in our name and so I thought about it, and I said, how about communism? Because it was such great, at that time, it was such a great incongruity, because it was the conservatives who were for the war. And it was conservatives who were against using language like that. And so it was a little bit confusing to them. And when the post office questioned me about it, and because I was going to send them, I had, oh, I am sorry, the printer would not print it. I could not get the people who did the engraving of the plate that we needed. They would not do it. And so I decided that I would have mention of it in The Realist and do it as a poster and the red, white, blue word "fuck" with stars and stripes and the word communism as red with hammers and sickles and says in small print at the bottom additional copies available from the Mothers of the American Revolution. And um, so it was, you know, I mean it helped. It helped. If they had printed it in the first place, and I had just used it in The Realist, it would not have brought any additional income. So bringing income was inadvertent, that was not the original purpose of that. 58:42 SM: Okay. 58:43 PK: But, but it had a purpose, which was Robert Scheer. S.C.H.E.E.R. 58:50 SM: Oh yeah I know. Yup. 58:52 PK: Oh, okay. Oh, he would be a tremendous uncompromising journalist. And now he has Truthdig. He has what? "Truthdig" (with two g's) T.R.U.T.H.D.I.G. as an online magazine. So he came to New York we had met in when he was working at the City Lights bookstore in San Fransisco. We were just talking I did not even know it is 1963 early and I did not even really know about the Vietnam War much. And he was enraged by it and he started explaining to me what was going on. And he went and he was writing a booklet for The Republic. A West Coast think tank and he wanted to, but they would not send him to Southeast Asia so he can see for himself. And so I said well, what would a round trip ticket cost you? And he said one million nine hundred dollars. And by that time, we had sold about a couple of thousand at one dollar each, so I gave him a check for the uh, to go to Cambodia, Vietnam and, do his research. So you know that was a blessing in disguise. 1:00:42 SM: Okay. 1:00:43 PK: Of not printing it in the Realist. 1:00:48 SM: Well one of the most important things you know, I am a big fan of the Newseum in Washington, D.C. and we have actually had people from the museum when I worked at the university come and speak about it and of course, it has got a brand-new building now. But the question I want to ask you is The Realist what it was like to be the editor of an underground paper, and all the pressures just to survive as a paper during these times. And the second part of the question, which I hope is an affirmative answer, has the underground press, like papers like the Realist ever been recognized by the Newseum in Washington D.C. for all of the great things that press has done? It is part of the history of America after the war, and I am I was curious if you know anything about what the Newseum has done to pay tribute to or do programs on, the underground newspapers. 1:01:48 PK: I honestly do not know. I do not know. 1:01:53 SM: And Paul please speak up too. 1:01:55 PK: Yeah, I am just, I am mumbling because I just do not know actually. I mean, there have been books about it, there is a fellow named Abe Peck, he did a book called Uncovering the (19)60s, it was a history of the underground press. And I know, I know, I think the University of Michigan had a microfilm of The Realist. And now all the issues are being put online. But I do not know if there was ever, ever any official recognition of it, by the, you know, like the Smithsonian or any of the museums. 1:02:29 SM: I think that would be I am not, I could not do it. But someone like you. And the person who was the leader of one of the biggest names: The Realist but the other newspapers whether if they are truly a Newseum that they are whether they recognize the importance of the underground press. 1:02:51 PK: It is a great idea. There should be that. You know, they, I think that those times, everybody was living so much in the present they did not think of the future like that. But sure, it is, it is a part of, of journalistic history really all of them I mean, the LA Free Press, the original publisher of that lives near me. He is now into alchemy. What are they doing now and, longevity. And it is you know there is here and there is recognizing different ways people have collected that they sometimes try to sell on eBay but it could come to pass but let us face it, you and I aren't going to do it. 1:03:55 SM: The key thing is as a person who ran an underground paper all these years what pressures did you receive from the public to shut you down ever. I mean, did you when we talked about individuals being watched by the FBI and the CIA, whether it be you, Abbie, Jerry and others, what, what were they doing in respect to the underground papers? Were they doing the same things to editors around the country and were you worried about lawsuits? Because you are doing things that other papers are afraid to do. 1:04:32 PK: Well, first of all, The Realist never did any advertising. The weekly underground papers had big advertising from the cigarette companies, and the liquor companies and the government pressured them stop the advertising, which helped diminish the underground papers. You know, I got threats and certainly the FBI attempted to harass but the serious ones, the book to read unless you wanted to interview Abe Peck goes into a lot of detail about the pressures and the harassment and the sabotage of underground papers. But I was, and those that have had problems I would sometimes do benefits for papers who were having trouble but you know the details of how the pressure and the hassling came about are revealing. You know, while the FBI was accusing us of being a conspiracy, they were the conspiracy. Conspiring to diminish whatever effect on the underground papers had. 1:06:33 SM: Mm hmm. One of the things too and I am going to get to some of the general questions here in a minute that I asked a lot of other people, but one of the things I admired about the yippies from afar was their ̶ the way; their theatrical efforts. Because when I was in college guerrilla theater was very important. Something we do not ever see today. I do not if you were talking about guerrilla theater in college campuses today, they would say what the heck is that? But I have a book that noted a lot of the participants of the (19)60s are actually interviewed in is the importance of guerrilla theater in the whole (19)60s and (19)70s era on college campuses. And actually, when you think about the yippies, you are thinking about massive guerrilla theater. Just your thoughts on whose idea was it to come up with these skits? I know you did the, talked about the Wall Street, the dollar bills, levitating the Pentagon, but coming up with colorful outfits and some of the things! Like I saw Jerry, when he came to Ohio State, Jerry Rubin, he came there one night and he look just like he does right here in the front cover of Do It. No different. And he gave he gave a tremendous speech. The place was packed and he had so much passion I will never forget! They gave him a standing ovation. But whose idea was it to do the theater part? Did you did you have practice? 1:08:13 PK: When the House of American Activities Committee came to the bay area and Jerry was going to testify. This was his first encounter with using that kind of theater. And there was the San Francisco mime troupe. And Jerry had a meeting with Ronnie Davis who ran the troupe and it was Ronnie Davis who suggested to Jerry that he go to the hearings dressed in a revolutionary costume from the American Revolution. Which he did and we have got a lot of attention and then Jerry would make comments about what was going on with the playing the American Revolution. But I asked him one time, I said, Jerry, how did you feel actually doing that? He said, I felt like an asshole but I had to do it. Because he has an example, could break through, others could break through. You know, that was a lot of feedback that I got about doing The Realist, people said to me, you know, I saw that lightning did not strike you and so it made me freer. I mean, this was people who were in mainstream media. Who said that it gave them a little show to be a little bit more risky? 1:10:14 SM: I think that is what George Carlin said to today, I was reading something about that. When he was younger that did what Lenny Bruce did and what you did and others did was made him feel hopeful. 1:10:30 PK: I do not know. No, no, it was Kurt Vonnegut who said that The Realist made him feel hopeful. Carlin said, and he wrote and then Vonnegut said it in an introduction to one of my books, the Winner of a Slow Bicycle Race. But the Carlin quote came from an introduction he had written to another one of the books Murder at the Conspiracy Convention and in that he described how it was impossible for him to read The Realist without feeling inspired. So you know, that was one of the most honorable things that have been said about my work. I was very touched. And particularly because Carlin in turn inspired so many people who have never heard of The Realist, so it is kind of you know, you throw your pebble into the stream and then it makes its own ripple. 1:11:33 SM: Yes, yes. One of the things that the tragic things of this period is I was interviewing a professor last week Dr. Petchesky at Hunter College and we were talking about I said, I have always brought up, I bring up in some of the interviews Abbie Hoffman's suicide, and the note that he left because I remember he died over here in Bucks County not far from where I live. 1:12:04 PK: But wait a minute. I do not think he left a note. 1:12:11 SM: Well, I will have to look it up, but it was from the press I think at that time, he said no one was listening to me anymore was in the note. I got the article. 1:12:25 PK: I will um, it might be true, but I am sorry if I had not known that I was under the impression, huh. 1:12:32 SM: But what I am getting at is that Abbie Hoffman committed suicide, Phil Ochs committed suicide, this professor's husband had committed suicide and he was a big anti-war Professor up at Wellesley College, because he was so upset about the war, people were not ending it and he did himself in. And then of course, I interviewed Lewis Poehler and he committed suicide as well. A Vietnam vet even though it was in 1994. My question is this. When I asked this to this professor last week, Dr. Petchesky she said, you have got to understand that when you are dealing with all these personalities in this particular era of American history, there is a lot of other things going on in their lives besides just what you see the anti-war or civil rights activities over there. They could have depression, they could have manic disorders. There is a lot of other things. And also, there is so I do not know what your thoughts were because you were close to Abbie and you knew Phil Ochs. And I remember one hearing that Phil Ochs, I believe killed himself as well. When I think of Abbie, I and that note that was in the supposedly attached to the article, it said, no one is listening to me anymore. And to me that struck me right in the heart because here is a man that I believe dedicated his entire life to doing good things, even though he may have been theatrical at times. If you saw him on Phil Donahue, when he came out of hiding, you saw the real Abbie Hoffman, who cared about saving the Hudson River and doing so many good things. And then feel that here is a man who says that no one is listening to me anymore. And I like he had two thousand dollars in the bank. I mean, it is like, unbelievable, just your thoughts on the loss of Abbie and Phil Ochs. 1:14:32 PK: Two thousand, that is a lot. [laughs] 1:14:35 SM: Yeah, well, those are that I remember that in because he lived in Bucks County. 1:14:39 PK: Yeah. Well, you know, it was always the loss of a personal friend. At the same time, the loss to the culture of what more they could have contributed. And because they were public figures, I got calls from the media asking for some kind of comment. And I had to put my grief on hold in order to kind of respond. And so you know you cannot. No one can experience the pain of someone else's suffering. Unless they suffer it themselves and you can identify with them but you feel pain that you cannot stop their pain but anybody that takes their own lives it is both cowardly and courageous, simultaneous. And Abbie had been on some meds and went off of them which had something to do with it. That is the thing about antidepressants they have tools because they give you suicidal tendencies and he had been he had been diagnosed as a manic depressive and clinically and so whereas Phil Ochs had incredible stomach pain and when he was in Africa, his throat had been slit and affected the singing and to a certain extent that nobody is listening to me anymore was in his case how some people thought he was better than Bob Dylan and but still Phil had outshone him and it was a disappointment. So, you know, these are just human emotions and human nature and the only way I can handle it is that I was grateful to be here when they were here. And in a way, they are still touchstones. You know, I will think of something that I might say on stage and this is the touchstone of Lenny is will be: hey come on, do not do that, it is a cheap shot. I mean, there was a point where I thought that I was channeling Lenny till one time that I said, come on Paul, know, you do not believe in that shit. So then I no longer channeled him. And Ken Keesey, he still appears in dreams. But you know it is just a projection of my memory of them. I do not give it any mystical, so, you know and but these are all people who have inspired us and as Dylan said, What can be better than inspiring unless you are Charles Manson and you are inspiring others. [laughs] 1:18:46 SM: Yeah, I did not even know Abbie Hoffman but, the mere fact that people have criticized him not during this interview process but people that I know through my life, and I read some of his books and I saw him on TV I always considered him a lot different than Jerry Rubin. And in so many ways because I felt that he had the gift of humor, like you do. And I can remember reading in certain books that even inmates, even the police liked him, because he made the police laugh. 1:19:26 PK: Oh, yeah, 1:19:27 SM: He made people feel good. They may not have liked the other guys, they may not have liked Tom Hayden, or Jerry Rubin or Dave Bellinger or whatever. They may not have liked them for certain reasons, but they somehow even his enemies kind of liked him. Because it was the way of who he was how he talked to people. He made them laugh. 1:19:48 PK: In "Confession" I described them. I said that Abbie was, that Jerry was the right lobe of the brain and Abbie, I am sorry, I am sorry. Jerry was the left lobe of the brain and Abbie was the right lobe of the brain. Jerry would calculate things and Abbie would just be spontaneous. 1:20:19 SM: Wow. 1:20:20 PK: Abbie was truly witty and Jerry he once told me that he would listen to a Lenny Bruce album before he went out to make a speech but you know, you cannot capture that it is not something you can set a trap for. Okay, now I have humor in there. 1:20:48 SM: Yeah, the spontaneity you going to have it or you do not. 1:20:52 PK: Yeah, I mean, I do not, you know one of my oxymoronic maximums is: practice spontaneity. 1:21:05 SM: A couple of general questions I have here because this is a book on the boomers and all the things you are talking about is have taken place in boomer lives and people experience these personalities in your work as well. When in your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? 1:21:28 PK: Well, for me, it began in 1958 when I launched The Realist and it ended I think in 1974? When Nixon resigned? Okay. How important do you think the, I have been asking this question is for college students in ending the Vietnam War? It might have been (19)95. I am not sure but anyway, whatever year it was, that was it. 1:22:02 SM: Yes. (19)74. 1:22:04 PK: A nice symbolic ending. 1:22:09 SM: Let us see, the (19)60s begin and end? Yeah. The question is, how important are college students in ending the Vietnam War, in your opinion during the (19)60s and early (19)70s and how important were the yippies in this process? So some people, again, whether they are the liberals or the conservatives, because I have interviewed a lot of conservatives and they have a totally different opinion. That is what is great about this book project. They have all different thoughts, but what parts did the yippies play in ending that war in Vietnam? And what part did the college students play? 1:22:50 PK: Hard give a percentage, but I think that the largest percent biggest percentage goes to the Vietcong. And, and who inspired the protesters in the state? You know? We were not in harm's danger the way they were. You know, it started with some black students who got shot down south in 1968, I am sorry, 1970. And, and then soon after that it in May that year, the Kent State killings occurred and this is, by the way the year this May be the fortieth anniversary of that. 1:23:44 SM: I am going to be there. Oh, you are? 1:23:47 PK: Yeah. You know I wrote a piece about that with the help of one of the one of the victims Allison Krause, her sister. 1:24:00 SM: Oh yes. 1:24:00 PK: Her sister Lauren, Laurel with her mother has been organizing this truth commission kind of thing for this fortieth anniversary so and because it was never quite understood why, like I can email you that article. 1:24:29 SM: Please do. I will be there for the first through the fourth. 1:24:36 PK: Yeah, it is going to be a powerful event but so many. Again, this is, you know, part of the history that people do not really know. I am sure it is not taught in Texas, I am sure it might only be bought locally in Ohio. Who knows! I remember that night watching the Walter Cronkite on CBS Evening News and he opened it was something like it finally happened. And you know, of course you think what finally happened? World peace suddenly? But he said how American students were shot dead by the National Guard and it was just a shock. Even though I have to admit that I said out loud, "good" and the reason was because I felt it happened already. Even while I thought that was a horrific tragedy, even while I felt that, I said that, because there was nothing I could do about it had already happened and now because I remember that shootings of the black students two months before that did not get much attention if at all, I mean, it got some but miniscule. And when I said good, I meant now they'll pay attention because these were four white students. Because I shocked myself when I said that and I had a, you know, think why did I, you know? 1:26:21 SM: The Kent State students were killed on the fourth of May and the African American students, the two that were killed at Jackson State eleven days later. 1:26:33 PK: They were killed at Jackson State? 1:26:35 SM: Yeah, they were killed at Jackson State. I think it was eleven days later. 1:26:41 PK: Oh, okay. I was not sure of the chronology. But in any case, you know, that only strengthens the point I was trying to make, which is that the white students will be much more attention paid to them than the black students so you would think, that is not to make less or to negate the killing of the whites but you know. 1:27:24 SM: I have to change my tape. Al right, we are back. One of the questions I have been asking. 1:27:37 PK: Oh, by the way it was not the Hudson River it was the St. Lawrence River that Abbie was working on. 1:27:44 SM: Oh that Abbie was working on? Yeah, yeah because you remember when he went on the Phil Donahue show? He was in Seattle I believe. Phil was on the road. I was living in the Bay Area from (19)76 to (19)83 and I remember when he came on, and he had been in hiding. So this is the first time we would come out. And he had an operation on his nose so he looked a little bit different and he was remarried. And he had been living with his. I thought I had been on the Hudson, but the St. Lawrence then and he had been really working hard to save the river and he had been doing it for quite a few years under a different name. 1:28:23 PK: Yeah, the name he used underground which was Barry Freed. 1:28:27 SM: Right. The question I have been asking you we took students to Washington D.C. in the mid (19)90s and we met Edmund Muskie, it was at that (19)68 convention. The students, none of them were born obviously at that time, but we came up with a question about healing. Because there was a perception that America was coming close to a second Civil War. I remember reading about it. Some people say yes, some people say no, but the divisions are so intense, and they even came about at that convention in Chicago. And of course, it was the year the two assassinations and the president resigning and then Tet took place early in the year. And the question was this, with all the divisions between black and white, gay and straight male and female, both who for the war those who are against the war, those who supported the troops, those who did not, and all the divisions that took place, do you feel senator Muskie that we were close to a second civil war? And do you feel that this generation of seventy-four plus million people will go to their graves like the Civil War generation, not healing? And I will tell you, the senator's response after, I would like to hear your response. Whether you think we have an issue with healing in this nation, within that seventy some generation. And of course, let me say this, Paul, I consider you a boomer even though you were born in thirty-two. When I interviewed Richie Havens, who was born in 1940, he said, I have always considered a lot of people do not like these terms, boomers and Generation X and all this other stuff. But there is a linkage between generations of people who think alike and who were influenced by. And many of the leaders of the antiwar movement were born between 1940 and (19)46. They were not boomers that were defined as people born in (19)46. So what I call our pre-boomers, and pre-boomers are people who have ideas that were very influential on the generation that came about after World War II. So do you feel that as a nation we have a problem with healing? 1:30:58 PK: But you are not talking about when Muskie said it. 1:31:02 SM: I am going to let you know what Muskie be said in response to that question. 1:31:06 PK: I see. I see. 1:31:07 SM: But do you feel we have an issue with healing? 1:31:11 PK: Now? But you mean now? 1:31:13 SM: Yes right now. 1:31:15 PK: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. But the first thing the prerequisite for healing is to acknowledge what needs to be healed and the reaction to Obama's health care plan is the prime example of the hostility for, racism which was, even though it will be denied and even though he won the presidency there is another civil war. It is that the first civil war never ended. And it has come to the surface. 1:32:15 SM: Guess what? 1:32:16 PK: I, you know, I thought there would be another revolution. I did not know what would be the Tea Baggers. But it is not a revolution. So I am just saying because I wrote that article contacting Abbie Hoffman and Glenn Beck. 1:32:35 SM: You are right on target Paul because what happened is Senator Muskie said he thought he was the same guy that we saw who cried on TV, which many people felt that he was not a man and he could not be president. He had tears in his eyes and he could not respond right away. He waited a minute. And the students really admired him for this. And he said, we have not healed since the Civil War, and he said he had just saw the Ken Burns series on television. He died six months later too. He was not well, he had just gotten out of the hospital. And he said that that series touched me because we lost 440,000 men. And if you consider the percentage of the population of America at that time, we almost lost an entire generation, particularly in the south. And so, he said, we had not healed since the Civil War, talking about racial issues and the divide between North and South. And so I have gotten a lot of different responses. And he did not even he did not even respond to (19)68. 1:33:43 PK: Muskie, I mean, everybody interprets events through the prism of their own subjectivity. And so I know conspiracy researchers who said, oh, yes, one of Nixon's men, slipped a tab of LSD this is something that Muskie set adrift. Other people had said that there were variety but, but the one thing that occurs to me and I can understand it because when I was just talking about Keesey before, I almost teared up. And what happened was Muskies opponent had said something about the Senator's wife. Yes. And he said when you do that, you know, then you are not too far from like that and that was when he started, you know, weeping a little bit. Now of course, that would be considered. I mean, that was just sort of sexism really. Because it was okay for women to cry but not a real macho man. And so if someone was to do that now, it would be considered a good healthy thing. And even a sign of respect. And I think what was that movie one of my favorite movies and I forget the name, not network. Broadcast was it? It was where William Hurt. 1:35:30 SM: Oh! 1:35:31 PK: Got fired from a show because he had tears flowing down his eyes listening to somebody but, but it was ̶ 1:35:42 SM: Mmmm. 1:35:43 PK: It was edited in to that that context, and I think he did it later. But it was it was that kind of thing now, you know, it was, if Mitt Romney could cry at will he would do it. 1:35:58 SM: Well one of the other issues that I have been trying to solve, I just wanted to say too that it is interesting that Obama prefers to distance himself from the (19)60s generation. All the time, he said, I am not the (19)60s. Yet he was criticized by many of his opponents, by thinking that he is bringing back to the (19)60s with his mentality being way to the left. So I find it interesting that we have a leader who wants to distance himself from that era, of that well actually, the boomer generation and yet he has been criticized by his opponents as bringing it back. So talk about an oxymoron here. 1:36:38 PK: Well, but, you know, that the thing about giving names to decades and generations, is that it is not that clear cut and so he spoke like, you know, I was going to say, like a true Boomer but you know, the protestors is really were just a small percentage of the boomers. I mean, it was not, a lot of people kind of stick it together and they are boomer bashing instead of (19)60s bashing. 1:37:17 SM: But what is interesting is he actually is a boomer, if you look at the terms because it was those born between (19)46 and (19)64, was not he born in (19)64? 1:37:26 PK: Oh, so I, you know, in the novel of writing, the narrator is a female reporter who was born in (19)64, and her mother was born in (19)46 so ̶ 1:37:40 SM: Oh! 1:37:41 PK: So they book end. 1:37:43 SM: Oh, yeah. 1:37:44 PK: And have a lot in common because they communicate not because of the year they were born. But the Obama thing, I think it is more of attitude that you know, Obama was the first politician admitted to smoking marijuana and somebody said you know what you inhaled, or you enjoyed it. And he said, well that was the point. Not saying oh, I experimented with it like all the other young guys, but he did it because he liked getting high. You know so that depicted that aging hippies could identify with was him no matter what, what generation they were part of. 1:38:40 SM: The other issue I bring up besides healing is the issue of trust. And this boomer generation seems to be a very a generation that doesn't trust for obvious reasons, seeing so many leaders had lied to them during their lifetime. Whether it be President Johnson or the Gulf of Tonkin certainly Watergate with Richard Nixon. Nobody trusted Gerald Ford when he was giving a pardon to Nixon. Eisenhower lied about the U2. There were things about President Kennedy and what happened in Vietnam. That were suspicious. And there is another even as boomers have aged, there has been things that leaders have done, but you cannot trust them. Is that a good quality to have within a generation is the lack of trust? Because I think a lot of people will say that that generation, if you talk about a quality, they just do not they did not trust people. 1:39:40 PK: Well, I and I think they have earned the distrust. I mean, it has become a given now, you know, it was not even what was the ̶ what was surprising, about John McCain, saying that he was never considered himself a maverick is that there is all this footage of him identifying himself as a maverick, and even using the word in the title of his autobiography! That was how shameless these politicians are. But you cannot generalize and that was why so many people thought, who voted for Obama, thought that he was, that he really did give people hope, a hope for change. And so, you know, I have got back and forth disappointment. Now I am pleased by this, I am disappointed by that. Because if he got into the presidency, under the delusion that it could be bipartisan and, you know, I think it is so evil of the republicans to have voted against the health care process, not because they truly believed it, but because the name of the game was to give Obama his Waterloo at the expense of the countless people who have ever suffer and die because of that. And so it is no wonder that people are discouraged and cynical. 1:41:44 SM: And it is difficult for you to say but you have had a lot of people who have friends who are boomers in this age group you have seen throughout your lifetime. And by looking at them you think they have been good parents and grandparents and respect to two things. Number one sharing history and what it was like when they were younger and in making comparisons between then and now. And secondly, the activism that was seemed to be so prevalent within this generation. And again, I get criticized when I keep saying the boomers are only 15 percent we are probably activists of the seventy-four million. But still, that is a lot of people. 1:42:23 PK: And it has always been that way that the majority of people have a certain sheepishness about them. And it was Margaret Mead, who says, you know, individually, small groups of people can sometimes accomplish more. So it is not numbers but in the attitude of the public attention and having them ̶ see the contradiction. Its leadership. 1:43:05 SM: Yeah, you had a great quote in fact I got one chapter in the Grateful Dead Play the Pyramids. You have a line at the end of a paragraph here "what we need to do now", and this you are doing this with your beautiful satire though, "what we need to do now is hire Mexican workers as guest protesters so they can do the job that Americans do not want to do". And you were referring to the Bush administration and what was going on in the war in Iraq and making some comparisons. There was a draft during the Vietnam War now there is not really anything now of comparison. So that to me, is not that what you are really saying here? 1:43:49 PK: Oh, wait, did I say that in the context of the Grateful Dead? 1:43:53 SM: No, it was in the chapter. It was in the section the parts left out Chicago Ten. 1:44:00 PK: Oh yeah the Chicago Ten movement. 1:44:02 SM: Yeah. Yeah, I just think that is a beautiful statement, although people from people could miss read it, but that is to me it is satire and it hits it in a way that it connects truth. 1:44:17 PK: But I have said that on stage and the audience laughs and it is the kind of laugh that moves into applause because they take an image of you know, hiring of Mexican workers to march since, they have had proof of it in Los Angeles. But I do not, you know, I am used to being misunderstood. I want to be understood. But I think it was ̶ who said, please do not understand me too quickly. And that is one of the risks of trying to be as free as you can. Is being misunderstood and but, you know it. And that is why there is a need for damage control. [laughs] Or as I said that Toyota has borrowed McDonald's slogan, you deserve a break today. But you know a lot of the things or for the pope excommunicates himself, you know, a devout Catholic, might be offended by that, but you know, I cannot. It is just that that is the simple statement, you cannot please everybody. So, you know, any artist usually they want to reach as many people as possible but when it gets commercial art, then you kind of aim to a lower common denominator. And so I tried to aim for the highest common denominator and Dan O'Neill, a cartoonist said something real. And he said we have to remember we are not ̶ we are not fearless. And meaning that you know, that I thought my job as articulating the consciousness of the readers that I was just I had an outlet, before the internet, we are now the outlet and the creativity and imagination and insight and abilities of these citizen reporters and citizen video makers have make everybody an investigative reporter, or anybody can. You know, it helps to have training, but if you get a story that a ̶ journalist can all the better. The more the information there is, the more opportunities for people who deal in disinformation. To counteract it. I mean, that is the whole thing is that that really that we talked about that the republicans in cahoots with the pharmaceutical and the insurance industries have a tremendous propaganda machine and the only thing scarier than that is how many people swallow the line of that propaganda and it was disheartening. I mean, there are still people who think that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 911 even though it was finally denied. So, but you know, I think it was Mel Brooks says 95 percent of everything is bad. So it could be with, whether it is the movies or TV or Twitter, or whatever the medium is. And so if there was a, an ebb and a flow of power, you know, I did not even know the pope had approval ratings one way or the other, but, but it is being lowered now. Oh my god. Yes. So you know, it is so it is one big popularity contest and, public relations can hurt or help. 1:49:40 SM: Obviously, you are a little bit older and so was Jerry and Abbie and some of the Merry Pranksters, they were a little bit older. What when they were seeing these young people coming up on college campuses in the mid to late (19)60s and of course, SDS and the black power movement. And the women's movement then in the early, late (19)60s, early (19)70s, the gay and lesbian movement, the environmental movement, the Chicano movement, Native American, I mean, they all kind of came about same time. Some of them were, some of the leaders were followers were the younger ones but did you ever sit down as a group? And not just talk strategy but talk about what you thought about the generation known as the boomers. Did you think they were intellectually had generation just seen before? Were they smart? Were they knowledgeable? Were they courageous? What may have been some of the positive and negative thoughts you had on the generation? 1:50:52 PK: I do not think we ever referred then as the boomers. 1:50:55 SM: Okay. 1:50:57 PK: I do not know when the use of that term really started. Or, when it was popularized. We thought more of them in terms of their belief system and how they acted on it. And I say how they acted on it because I was a militant atheist. Until I realized at a certain point that Martin Luther King who had agreed to be interviewed by me, but the assassination interrupted that possibility. But he was but he, he was a Christian. And I interviewed George Lincoln Rockwell, the head of the American Nazi Party, and he considers himself an agnostic. So the epiphany for me was that it really did not make any difference. What anybody believed it was just how they treated others, you know, ultimately and so for your question there, oh about sitting around and boomers and so it was just easy, you know, either they were not for some it was whether they did psychedelics or not, and those were the students but it was really about I guess the closest encounter I had to that was with my brother who was while I was protesting about the war he was involved with selling helicopters that were being used Vietnam. And, so I, I felt that he was not an evil person I knew that and that he had a high security level, level of clearance and which almost was damaged by my being his brother. But, the thing is that he once said that in his lines of work that he was trying to make himself replaceable, you know, you could continue to drop along the line and I said oh, I was trying to make myself irreplaceable. So in other words, where he was talking about what was the kind of the machine grinding on and it was and so there was a level of conformity you have to do you know when you are in the corporate empire and so he was part of that scene and yet his contribution was perhaps greater than mine which was he was the co-author of the first textbook on space communication and he could appreciate the irony that people would come up to him and say you are Paul Krassner’s brother. And you know, it was only because I did stuff that got me the attention and he did not. But and so that is why that is why whatever level of fame I have, I do not take it seriously because it has nothing to do with, with me it has to do with whatever people's image of me is so because I try not to take the criticism personally, in the same sense I do not take the praise personally, just because I know if I want to praise somebody else's work, it is just an expression of my appreciation and it connects me with that person. But I have learned, you know, once I got passed my false humility that it was a mutual thing that all these people that I fell in with from Abbie Hoffman to Tim Leary, Ram Daas, Ken Kesey, that there was a mutuality, you know, we respected each other. And that was not a one way thing like, you know, a fan and the celebrity. 1:56:12 SM: Okay. You just liked being around each other. 1:56:16 PK: Liked what? 1:56:17 SM: You just like being around each other. 1:56:19 PK: Ah, yeah, yeah, it was. You know, it was interesting because a lot of these leaders were serious but they all had a sense of playfulness too you know, as I discovered when I was at some party, there were a lot of new age gurus. And I had just been covering the Patty Hearst trial and standing around in the kitchen at this party and the gurus were talking about some of the difficulties they will have with their servants and I said you know, that was just what I what the Hearsts were talking about. So, you know, that was my role. To be a court jester. 1:57:11 SM: Do you think it was a mistake for Jerry Rubin to say do not trust anyone over thirty, he was twenty-nine when he said it. I know somebody who will say that is the most one of the most ridiculous statements ever because he was one year away from being thirty himself. 1:57:26 PK: Well, it is a mistake to believe that Jerry Rubin said it. 1:57:30 SM: Okay. 1:57:31 PK: It was said by Jack Weinberg at the free speech movement that sort of triggered the free speech movement. He had been arrested and was in a police car on the Berkeley campus, which got surrounded by students. The police cars could not move. And then other people were jumping on top of the police car and bouncing on it. And then he was in the backseat ok, officers are in the front at this point. 1:58:12 SM: So he was the one that said it. 1:58:14 PK: I always think that, I knew what he meant. I knew what he meant. I, you know, I, and I knew it was ageist and I knew it was a generalization and argued against it. You know, I argued that you needed people on the inside, if we were over thirty, like Daniel Ellsberg, who released defense who was in a position to really defend risk takers. 1:58:35 SM: Right, right. 1:58:36 PK: So I tried my best not to generalize like that, but it was it was a statement. It was rhetoric really. And, it was just, it was just kind of acknowledging that there was a certain generation gap. But it was not meant that literally any more when Abbie Hoffman said kill your parents, and he had two kids, and he was not wanting them to kill him, and Jerry Rubin borrowed that. And Jerry Rubin was an orphan so it was a moot point. And, you know, there was some rivalry between them and the National Enquirer picked up Jerry saying that and he was on the front page of the Enquirer, the picture of Jerry saying, and the headline was something like: Yippie leader says "kill your parents." 1:59:38 SM: Oh, my gosh! 1:59:41 PK: I objected to it. Ironically, because it would be misunderstood but it was obviously a historical metaphor about it was like when I when I left college with only three credits needed to graduate, one course. I was killing my parents, in a sense, in that sense. I mean, that is the sense it meant, symbolically. Not living up to the vision that they had, that you would become. 2:00:19 SM: Well, I know that Miri Savio, when the leader will always the main speaker of that movement. He is ̶ there is a brand new book out it is a very good book by Dr. Croen from NYU, I encourage you to read it. It is a great book. And he talks about the fact that it was the differences there was that his generation, that generation of the Free Speech Movement was we were a generation of ideas. And we are not a generation of careers like our parents. And that was the big split right there. And I interviewed Arthur Chickering, the great educator who wrote Education and Identity which was a textbook used in higher education, the early (19)70s and when I interviewed him, he was telling me the biggest weakness today in the university is we have gone back to exactly what it was before the Free Speech Movement we would become a corporate University again. And that is his biggest criticism as an educator is the corporations are priority number one in higher education and of course, Clark Kerr's Multiversity, and he explained that back then the students were trying to change it, but I guess what goes around comes around again. I have a couple more questions here. How long were you involved with Ken Kesey's Merry Pranksters? Who were they and why are they important as cultural figures? 2:01:47 PK: Well, Let us see. I did not go on the bus trip. But Kesey always said you are either on the bus or off the bus but he said to me, you were on the bus even though you were not on the bus. And so it was about, I met him first, he had read The Realist and Kesey told me that when I published the issue with the parts of that out of the Kennedy book, which had to do with an act of presidential necrophilia, in a context built up in literary form of apocrypha so that started to think it was totally true and then things that were known by reporters but not by the general public, and then things that were happening and leading up to this climactic scene. And so, Neal Cassidy who was driving the bus and one day he was reading this and he handed back issue too Kesey and said and fit, hey chief, you better take a look at this. And, so we knew of each other's work and then I met him for the first time at the Berkeley campus during the first Vietnam feature and which I was emceeing and he came up to me and continued a conversation that had never started. He did not introduce himself, he just came up and said his wife, you know, Fay was just as saying; because the connection already existed before we actually met and I mean, I was fortunate to have a magazine where I could meet these people and interview them and you know, and they would and I could never have that opportunity interacting with it without the magazine. And so the point I was going to make. It will come back. 2:04:37 SM: The Merry Pranksters? 2:04:39 PK: Well anyway, and then that was I think around (19)65 maybe. And then in 1970, I got a call from Stewart Brand, publishing the Whole Earth Catalog and he had asked Kesey to edit the last supplement for the Whole Earth Catalog, and Kesey said he would do it if I could co-edit it with them and so Brand called me up and asked me that and I remember answering yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! And when I moved to the west coast San Francisco and then Venice Beach. And so we became close friends during that time when we were putting out preparing the last supplements. And then I spent a lot of, we would spend Christmas there sometimes and my daughter Holly and I would, that is how Holly became part of the extended family and, and then I did go on, there was a reunion bus trip and I went, I did go on that. But until we get to the heart of your question what the original bus trip went across country. It looked like you know, kids used to want to run away with the circus this way they wanted to hitch a ride on, on the bus further, right? It was colorful. It was humorous. It was gentle. It was like a traveling the guerrilla theater and the people who joined in became part of it. You know, we just hung around and talk to people on the bus or marvel about all of the paintings that were around it and so it was it was a certain kind of, it turns people on. And, you know, it was like a movie, you know the colorful gas, but with these colorful figures popping out it was like aliens in a way. And I remember on the on the reunion trip Kesey was at the back of the bus and he was filling balloons with helium and with a string attached and giving them to kids and this woman and her young son came by and he gave one and the mother gave Kesey a quarter. And he said, with a smile, so she would know he was kidding. He said, "what a quarter? I am a famous author, madam." And she did this double take she did not know whether she had embarrassed him or, or whether she should give him $1.00 was a nice moment, as it was, you know, it was revealing his personality that he was doing that he did not assign it to somebody. 2:08:22 SM: Right. 2:08:23 PK: And, and he was he was always gregarious. He and I did a lot of events together and then we would hang around with the college booking people or whoever organized the event. And Kesey said that was really part of the deal so they could hang around. And it was true. And humbling, you know, which brings me right back to your original question about how I felt about my life. You know, whether I was proud of it and it was more of more, more gratitude than pride. And you know, both often as an atheist, you know, I, I still felt gratitude but there was a phrase I used in one of my books The Tell Tales of Kung Foo about a man with a fifteen inch Schwanz and very popular with the ladies. 2:09:36 SM: Hmm. 2:09:37 PK: And one of the characters in that says, God never says you are welcome. And I thought yeah that that, that that summed it up. I am in awe of nature and of evolution and lately becoming almost as much in awe of technology. 2:10:00 SM: Of course Ken Kesey he was a great writer too, yeah a great writer. Because of your work with The Realist and your magazine articles and everything and books you were able to link up with these people. You linked up with the Beats. I know there is things in there about Allen Ginsberg and obviously some of the Merry Pranksters, I think. Neal Cassidy was one, I believe, and um, how important were the Beats? I know there is this section in one of your books where Jack Kerouac is asked about whether the Beats were part of a social movement of protests, and he said, no, we were just, we were not about social protest. And he disagreed with Allen Ginsberg on this, on some sort of a panel. 2:10:48 PK: It was not a panel, this was at the twenty-fifth anniversary of the publication of On the Road. 2:10:53 SM: Right. 2:10:53 PK: And it was in Golden, Colorado at Naropa, the Buddhist College. 2:11:01 SM: Yes. 2:11:02 PK: I was a moderator and the panelists were William Burroughs, Allen Ginsberg, Abbie Hoffman and Tim Leary. 2:11:07 SM: Is that on tape? That should be a documentary that should be on tape! That should be seen! Golly! 2:11:15 PK: I probably have a cassette of that particular panel. 2:11:20 SM: Wow. 2:11:22 PK: And I quoted from it in ̶ biography and it was so it was, so Ginsberg and Abbie were, were arguing about whether the, this panel title has something to do with, with a socially activist ̶ 2:11:47 SM: Mm hmm. 2:11:48 PK: And, and Abbie's, Allen's point was that Kerouac and the Beats, they were neither winning nor losing this conspiracy. And Abbie argued, you know, that you were being political, when, when you hired that case that that lawyer obscenity case you wanted to win so, and that was Abbie's point of view. And I asked as moderator when Ginsberg had said that, I asked Abbie, well I forget how I phrased it but I quoted Abbie for quoting Che Guevara who said in a revolution one wins or dies. And so, so it was really a discussion about not winning or losing but winning and losing were kind of equal in the sense and it gave me a flashback to when I was an adolescent. And I played baseball and basketball. And I never cared if my team won or not. I just played my best, you know, it has just been because I was obsessed with infinite time and space, it would give me a headache. So I, you know, and so a game like that, you know, I could understand how people get disappointed or get thrilled, depending on whether they lost or won. 2:13:28 SM: Right. 2:13:30 PK: But, you know, ultimately it was just a game. And unfortunately, that is the way the politicians are, going back to why there is much skepticism. To them it is just a game, 2:13:45 SM: Right. 2:13:45 PK: And the goal of the game is to get reelected and so and so their occupation has become fundraising. 2:13:59 SM: Appreciate it. 2:14:00 PK: It is simulating so you know. 2:14:02 SM: Yeah, your, your life is just like, I wish I was in person I could interview all day, eight hours. I mean, you got so much and I have so many questions here. And I am not going to get into all of them. But one of the things here is, it is, I am fascinated because you obviously are a very outgoing person because you have made so many friends in so many different areas, whether it be the yippies or the merry pranksters or the beats or writers all over the country. You name it. I even saw you on TV. I saw a video on TV where you were on a panel with the former mayor of San Francisco's daughter. She was on there you were reminiscing the (19)60s. 2:14:44 PK: Oh, wait was that Alioto? 2:14:50 SM: Yes, she [Angela Alioto] was she was the daughter of the mayor of San Francisco. She was on the panel. You spoke and she spoke in it and she made a comment about you know, the she her dad kind of hid her from things, but she had to sneak out to enjoy the (19)60s as a seventeen year old or something like that. 2:15:07 PK: That is right. Yep. I remember at a dinner party that my daughter gave where I told her about, when I had a radio show in San Francisco. Her dad was going to be somebody, the producer arranged for him. No it was not arranged. I did not have a producer, it was that they were on tour with the mayor and his bodyguard, whoever they were ̶ And he and he wanted to be on the program ̶ perform an interview, but I was but I was told that I could not ask a certain question about some rent control or some question that he had been involved in. And I said if I cannot ask him that I am not going to interview him for that. So I think a guy from the news department interviewed him instead. 2:16:12 SM: Oh my gosh! 2:16:14 PK: I got a kick out of that. 2:16:17 SM: One of the things about Timothy Leary, of course, Ram Daas, I did not know that he had a stroke. He was that I saw him on television just the other day on some sort of a documentary. But one of the things when I interviewed people, and I mentioned these names at the very end for just responses and comments. I have not gotten one positive on Timothy Leary. Everybody's negative about them in every single way. And when they mentioned Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman, and occasionally some people talk about Abbie and nobody will ever say anything positive about Jerry Rubin. But the question is this, he is known for his slogan "tune in, turn on, drop out" and for a lot of people that believed that the ̶ (19)60s was all about not tuning in turning on and dropping out but about being out there on the front lines like the yippies were. Seems like that is even counter to yippie thinking that you can turn on, yes. But to drop out? Just your thoughts on that slogan and whether that is really hurt his image overall beyond his links to drugs because that is the biggest negative. 2:17:35 PK: First of all, since You have gotten, let me first say, you know, I have positive things to say about Abbie. Positive things to say about Jerry Rubin and Jerry Rubin got criticized a lot because he became a yuppie. 2:17:51 SM: Yep. 2:17:52 PK: And they went around, toured the map, Abbie and Jerry went around having debates, the yippies versus the yuppies which I moderated. At one point, I made a remark that they were throwing money in the stock exchange. Today, that means then, this time Jerry would invest it. And of course Leary, Leary was a friend and I have positive things to say about him. You know, the point is that people remember what the media said about them. And I just know one thing that Kesey said to me, we were talking about his image. And he said, and he said, the difference between his energy and his image, my energy is what I do. My image is what people think I do. 2:18:51 SM: Mmm. 2:18:52 PK: And so that is, that is the way it is, and people get used to shorthand used to describe people and it becomes like a quick caricature. And you know, or the movies I have seen whether it is a biopic about Billie Holiday or Lenny or others that I might know personally, it is always difficult. I did not know Billie Holiday but the thing happened to her but people who did see the movie were horrified by how it left out the basic truth but he died on the way to the hospital because other hospitals would not admit her because she was black. And that was not in the movie. How could it not be? And so the same thing with Lenny and the same thing with a movie about Abbie, and so people get the images from the entertainment rather than from history. 2:19:53 SM: Mm hmm. 2:19:54 PK: And so what exactly was your question then? 2:20:01 SM: It was whether you think that that philosophy have "tune in, turn on, drop out" it seems to be a negative term and just about everybody I have spoken to. You know, when I mentioned the name, that is all they think of is "tune in, turn on, drop out". 2:20:18 PK: [Inaudible] 2:20:19 SM: And even on television a week ago, you might even be able to find it on CNN, they were up at Harvard University, and they were interviewing college students at Harvard, they said, did you know that the LSD was started here at Harvard? And the students were saying, yes, yes, I know. But then some said, do you want to talk about it? Have you ever taken it? And some said, yes. And another said, no. And then some would say, I am not going to talk about it. And they all knew who Timothy Leary was, but there was a perception that it was a negative for Harvard. That was the bottom line. 2:20:57 PK: Yeah, and understood. That you know, they have no inclination of countercultural history. Even though it is part of history, it is marginalized. And so it is understandable, you know, there is probably people now who think that Abbie Hoffman is the Congresswoman from upstate you know, and it is their fault. But they cannot be resented for it, they just did not learn about it and the more time goes on the more there is to learn and is unlearned. You know, that is unfortunate, but the people that they did influence are the better for it. And you cannot win them all. Or you cannot lose them all. 2:21:55 SM: Right. The one thing I have here and again, these are just direct questions to you. Do you think your links to the issue hurts your effectiveness as a cultural critic as a satarist now and I am might even be saying with Tim Leary's image, the idea here is that drugs take you away from reality? Do not you have to be in reality to change it? And, I know I have read your books and I understand the experience and some writers say they can even write better on marijuana or LSD, some of these other experiences. But do you think people are ever going to understand drugs and understand not only obviously a part of history, but the effect that has and there is still this all it is always negative, it is all negative? 2:22:48 PK: Well, that is because it goes back to the propaganda machine. The Partnership for Drug Free America was founded and funded by the alcohol, tobacco and pharmaceutical industries for all of whom a drug, a weed that you grow in your garden, your window garden for nothing was a threat to the economy, to their, their industry why would anybody if they had all the facts want to smoke cigarettes they have killed one thousand two hundred people a day or marijuana which gives you a good feeling and it is not addictive as cigarettes are and who and that make that allows people to be more social and they credit it as being an aid to creativity or ̶ or for medicine now that now that you seem to be on the point of it is possibly marijuana possibly becoming legal, and the right thing being done for the wrong reason you know they are not doing it as a as a moral imperative they are doing it because the country's going broke and so it has gotten bad press and but more and more, just like gays came out of the closet, people are coming, you know, Ellen DeGeneres was on the cover of Time saying yep, I am gay and it is possible that they'll have it a photo of somebody on the cover of Newsweek saying, yep, I am stoned. I think that will be an advance. Because as long as any government can arbitrarily decide which drugs are illegal or illegal, then anybody in prison on the on the nonviolent drug offense is a political prisoner. That is my position. 2:25:35 SM: Just a couple more, and then we are going to be done. Okay, now looking at the music of the era, you know, it is too much to ask you, you know, every musician that you are liked, but when you look at all of your experiences in the (19)50s, the (19)60s, the (19)70s, and maybe the (19)80s, or even beyond, are there a few songs that stand out more than any other that you feel had the greatest influence? You personally maybe number two, the whether it be the merry pranksters or the yippies or just the boomer generation as a whole those born after (19)46 which musician which musicians and music or specific songs have the greatest impact. 2:26:20 PK: Oh, Let us see. I guess the one that comes to mind is John Lennon's Imagine. 2:26:32 SM: Mm hmm. 2:26:33 PK: Because, you know, it was outrageous to hear a song with "imagine no religion", and then here is played by muzak in an elevator. So you know, and I would love the Senate Glee Club singing “Imagine no possessions." But anyway, it was really ̶ song of uniting people rather than fighting at that song was really about. And, and I think that is what but no one either as a (19)60s generation or whatever. But whatever it is that the thing that stands out about that like Woodstock, that there was a sense of community and their sense of cooperation as opposed to competition. And, so those, those are the qualities that fight for advance and you know, there are there are people who say they are always good and evil. And um, but, but you know, and if that is true I remember once I was saying, it is never going to end and he said what? And I said when is it going to end this battle between good and evil. And my friend said, maybe never. And suddenly I was relieved. So, just do the best you can, instead of trying to save the world to start with yourself and work your way out. 2:28:54 SM: Very good advice. 2:28:55 PK: With the thought that the people that you have touched, will work their way out. And at least it is not so overwhelming a soul as to change world. You know. Socrates said, know thyself. Norman Mailer said "be thyself" and the counterculture said "change thyself." 2:29:24 SM: Hmm. 2:29:24 PK: But that that is the evolution of "know thyself" 2:29:29 SM: Essentially because I was coming right into the terms. I have probably half the interviews I have done and not the early one back in the late (19)90s. When I first started this, and that is, there were three terms that seemed to stand out symbolizing the boomer generation that grew up after 1946 to (19)64. And then asked people to respond to these three and then one came up, which was a fourth one. The first one was Malcolm X said "by any means as necessary" they were symbolizing the more radical, violent aspects that whether it be the Weatherman or some people; black power, the Black Panther Party or the Young Lords and the Chicano movement, what happened at the end of the AIM situation (19)73 at Wounded Knee. The second one was Bobby Kennedy, which was Henry David Thoreau's quotes. I do not usually get the quote 100 percent right but you do "some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and asked why not" which is symbolic. 2:30:36 PK: Bobby Kennedy said that. 2:30:37 SM: Yes, but it was originally a Henry David Thoreau quote. 2:30:41 PK: Oh, I did not realize. 2:30:42 SM: Yeah, and that symbolized the activism, the concept that I want to make a difference in this world and I am going to fight injustice and make the world a better place to live. And the third one was kind of what was on a Peter Max poster in 1971, which I thought was more of a hippie mentality, which was "you do your thing and I will do mine if by chance we should come together it will be beautiful." That was a Peter Max poster is saying I know that was very popular in (19)71. And the other one that came up from other people was We Shall Overcome symbolizing the civil rights movement. And the only other one that a few people have said is John Kennedy's "Ask not what your country can do for, ask what you can do for your country. And then the Timothy Leary too quote that I mentioned earlier, are there some quote You have already mentioned quite a few quotes today, even some of the yippie quotes and your quotes and is there a quote that you feel is also very important that defines the boomer generation? 2:31:48 PK: Not the boomers or the boomer generation, I was going to put people identified. Yes, it could be. With Harry Chapin the singer songwriter said "If you do not act like there is hope there is no hope." 2:32:03 SM: Hmm. 2:32:07 PK: And then there is my own which is "If you eat a pub sandwich at a delicatessen, be sure to take the toothpick out for your first bite." 2:32:19 SM: That is a good one. 2:32:20 PK: That is my philosophy. 2:32:21 SM: That is a very good one. 2:32:23 PK: You got to be practical before you get into the deep stuff. 2:32:28 SM: Right? 2:32:29 PK: If you have a bleeding upper palate, it is not no fun. 2:32:34 SM: It is a good point uh, Paul when you think of the ̶ 2:32:37 PK: Was the pun intended? 2:32:38 SM: What? 2:32:38 PK: You said "good point", no pun intended? 2:32:41 SM: No! no! No! No pun intended. 2:32:43 PK: Pun intended. 2:32:45 SM: P.U.N. right? 2:32:46 PK: P.U.N. as in toothpick. 2:32:48 SM: Yes. The pictures. I think I know what you are going to say in this because I read one of your books that the pictures that you feel define the generation because pictures say a thousand words, oftentimes, and when I thought of the (19)60s and (19)70s, I think of three pictures that came to mind and but when you think of, say the (19)50s (19)60s (19)70s or (19)80s, what are the pictures that come to your mind photographs that were in front of newspapers or magazines that if they had not read a thing they could, it would tell a lot about the time that we are talking about. 2:33:26 PK: Well there are two sides to pick from, besides the big one, one is a horror picture of a group of people including a little naked girl running in Vietnam had just had been splashed with Napalm. 2:33:43 SM: Thats Kim Phuc, that is one of them. 2:33:46 PK: Uh, huh .And, on the other hand, it was a poster. It was originally going to be it was "the war is over." And I think it was and the design on a poster was going to be that classic one of from World War II of the sailor kissing a woman on the street. And feminism was an early contemporary feminism, was in it is early phase and so there was a kind of sensitivity to even the implication of that, you know that it is good that the war was over, but that was no reason to impose yourself on a stranger and so to be politically correct, there was a photo on the poster of a Vietnamese woman with her arms outstretched and there was doves, white doves, perched on her arms in that gesture. 2:34:57 SM: Wow. 2:34:59 PK: And that is kind of the anecdote to the other one. 2:35:05 SM: Of the three that I was thinking of in that you mentioned one. One was the three athletes at the 1968 Olympics, the black power with the fists up. Right. 2:35:17 PK: Tommy Smith and John Carlos and the third one was the girl over the body at Kent State. Jeff Miller was shot and Mary Vecchio that made the front cover of Newsweek and won the Pulitzer Prize that picture. And the one that I thought you were going to mention was the one of the gentlemen putting flowers in a gun at the 1967 protest at the Pentagon. Oh, yeah, that ̶ actually was yippie organized. He was known as "Super Joel." 2:35:55 SM: Mm hmm. 2:35:57 PK: But the other one also stands out. Another horrible one was the Vietnamese, South Vietnamese general shooting? 2:36:07 SM: Yes. 2:36:08 PK: Sitting there on his knees, shot him in the head. 2:36:10 SM: Yep. 36:10 PK: That, that kind of remains. 2:36:12 SM: Another one was the, the My Lai massacre where you have the picture of all the people alive and then all of them dead on the ground. 2:36:21 PK: Yeah. 2:36:21 SM: That, that is a, that is a terrible picture too. 2:36:23 PK: There was a photo I had taken by Paul Avery a reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle who investigated the Zodiac and Patty Hurst case, and he had been in Vietnam and the photo which I had on my wall many years. And it was of both mother and child, obviously has been geared by Vietnam, just looking out in horror, looking directly at you. And then when my daughter came to live with me, she said Daddy, why do you have that on the wall? And I said, Well, you know, it puts my problems in perspective. But then one time, after I had been living there for ten years, Ken Kesey came to visit us and we had such a relationship that he could get away with this and he just ripped it off the wall and he said it is time to take that off the wall. And you know, you would not want a stranger to do that, but, but I saw Kesey's point of view and you know, because but I had wanted to see it because that picture so horrified me at first it just became part of the scenery you know, you can ̶ 2:37:33 SM: Right. 2:37:36 PK: Just repetition just each time I looked at it another level, another layer of edge was taken off and it just and it was kind of a metaphor for horror in general you know what people have gone on through that, you know, you cannot really remember pain, you can remember having it but and then so it is like that with art. You have it on your wall and then it is there and it is there and that is it. But if you move it to another place in the house and you are tense again. But I think what has happened is a lot of people have become inured to horror by twenty-foor/seven news cycles as well as all of the Chainsaw Massacre movies. Just part of the culture. 2:38:54 SM: You cannot end an interview without a couple of things that you said in your book that needs to be on record. That is the, the positives of the counterculture. I am very pleased that you have given me the names of these individuals to interview to make sure that their point of view is heard and it will be. But in your book, you mentioned four or five items here that are very positive results, lasting results of the counterculture. And I just want to mention them, and you can expound on any of them if you want to, but organic food, environmental movements, the alternatives spiritual practices, which I see all the time with our students, alternative medical practices, certainly the peace movements that are ongoing even though we would like to see more of them. Organic food is a big one. It is part of our life now. And so, if You have any thoughts on what any more that you can say about some of the positive results of the counterculture that the critics never mentioned, 2:40:03 PK: Well, well, what we really wanted we wanted to have people in the future party with a (19)60 theme where everybody could have oregano in a baggie and give it to other people, in their tie-dyed shirts. That was our real goal. 2:40:31 SM: I did not hear you what? I said that was our real goal. To inspire (19)60s fashion parties in the (19)70s and (19)80s. Really? 2:40:41 PK: Not really! But you have to take the risk of being misunderstood. 2:40:48 SM: I do not remember reading that in the list. Go ahead. [laughs] 2:40:57 PK: But it is as if but it is as if that was it that is the only you know, evolution continues and, and something else deems campy when it was the way that we lived our lives. But you know and so that is why it is important not to remain frozen in the (19)60s, because I would miss a lot of this century then. 2:41:33 SM: You, obviously you are really anybody who is in a position of responsibility or I do not want to say always authority but somebody who is out there speaking their mind having points of view the ultimate integrity, Arthur Chickering, the great educator Rhodes educated identities, said the ultimate is integrity. Integrity means I know who I am. I know what I stand for. I know what I believe in. I am willing to be criticize and praised for it. I am strong enough to take both. And I believe you are that kind of person too. And it is interesting when you have the kinds of critics here like a Harry Reasoner, I remember this. I remember Harry Reasoner I remember he did not treat. Forget her name very well, when she was on television with him, um Barbara Walters. "Krassner not only attacks, establishment values, he attacks, decency in general." You have got to be a pretty strong person to be able to handle that kind of stuff. 2:42:31 PK: Oh, well, I never. I was amused by it and the noise of being coupled with Joe McCarthy when he said that McCarthy and I were the only people that Harry Reasoner would not shake hands with if he met them as part of his professional career. 2:42:54 SM: Wow. 2:42:55 PK: And so I was annoyed by the fact that says Senator Joe McCarthy had immunity from with everything he said whereas I had to deal with the possibility of libel so I was amused by it otherwise and was going to try to arrange with a photographer friend that could get me into a party where Harry Reasoner was going to be just so I could introduce myself and put my hand out to shake so that the photographers could get a photo of that and then I could publish it with his quote underneath. 2:43:42 SM: Hmm. 2:43:43 PK: I never got around, but you know, I just had learned that he said for his needs, not mine 2:44:00 SM: And of course he died way too early too I think he fell down stairs or something like that. 2:44:06 PK: But again I had a one person show in Los Angeles and it was called Attacking Decency in General, so nothing gets wasted. 2:44:19 SM: Right! [laughs]One couple things I want to throw in here I love the quote you had in your book Dave Dellinger said "the power of the people is our permit." I thought that was a beautiful that is a quote. And of course Phil Ochs, even though he has passed on. I Ain't Marchin' Anymore is still a very important music that goes through many generations. So his legacy lives on. 2:44:52 PK: In fact, a documentary about Phil Ochs in production now. 2:44:59 SM: Oh, really? That is good. 2:45:00 PK: But that will hopefully bring a, somebody is also writing a screenplay about him. And Sean Penn originally wanted to do something about him and play him and even do the singing. So it is good that is his legacy. 2:45:22 SM: I am down to my final two questions here. And one of them is the Twinkie defense. I cannot as another term that came from you. And that is because I did not know until I read the book that that that term came from you. And of course, I lived in the Bay Area when that happened. I was in Burlingame. And I was there from (19)76 to (19)83. So I was out there when all this happened, and the two killings and then the trial and, and then of course, he committed suicide a couple years later, but just your thoughts on comparing that experience of being out there in San Francisco when all this happened to compared to some of the other things, this is like this is (19)78 now we are talking about this is not the (19)60s. 2:46:12 PK: Well, you know what, I covered the Patty Hearst case and a trial and, and the Dan White trial and I was struck by the contrast between because Patty Hearst was kidnapped and forced to be present with a machine gun when a bank was robbed. And she had to and she was, and she was found guilty. Whereas, Dan White deliberately committed a double political execution and got off easy and that is it summed up by Lenny Bruce's maximum that "In the halls of justice the only justice is in the halls." 2:47:09 SM: Hmm. Wow. Yeah because I, I was I were you outdoors that day when Joan Baez was singing it was the outdoor event? It was after the I guess the caskets were inside City Hall and they had that event out there they had a flyer and seemed like? 2:47:33 PK: Oh yeah, I remember that. 2:47:34 SM: There were thousands of people. 2:47:35 PK: Marching with candles. 2:47:36 SM: Yes. It was an unbelievable experience to be there, another person murdered. 2:47:46 PK: Because I got caught in the post-verdict riot and beat by the cops and which affected my whole posture and my gait. So it is you know, it had its own effect on me. 2:48:00 SM: Right, how you doing? 2:48:02 PK: Well, I have walk with a cane now, so I would skip over that. But you know, I would like to do it over. But I have to accept the reality of it. So. 2:48:18 SM: I think Rex Weiner said that he was there too. He was there. Maybe not with you what with others after that verdict was given, he was pretty upset. And the last question I have here is, again, it is kind of goes back to the first question. How do you feel as time passes? As all the people who experienced what you experienced pass on I am feeling this now and I am 60, my parents felt this when all their friends were going on. I saw them in the World War II generation. And it is like, it worries me because I worry our history just is not there when we are gone. But here is my question. How do you feel as time passes as all the people who experienced what you experienced pass on? Are you fearful that one: time will wipe out you and your peers history away from the history books, because of the people who will be writing it when the boomer generation is all gone? They did not live during that period. And secondly, fear that the future writers will look at the yippies, your work as nothing but the theatrics? Acting childish, adults never growing up? No real meaning beyond what I just mentioned, because that has been some of the critics of a lot of the boomer generation, that they never grew up. 2:49:50 PK: That is a good question because I have thought about that and you know, I had the fantasy that my autobiography would become required reading because it has gotten a lot of praise and it was Art, the fellow who wrote Art Spiegelman who wrote Maus, and got a Pulitzer prize for it, and they called my book the definitive book about the (19)60s and because my life kind of was a microcosm of how that evolved. And so that is, that is my contribution to that history and you know, I cannot, I will not know about it when I am dead, of what they say about whatever my legacy is, but you know, there is nothing I can do about it and I cannot worry about it. It is just, you know, you do what you do. It is all summed up by Popeye "I am where I am." So I um, and, you know, and in the long run, ultimately it doesn't matter, you know, there is only so much history people can absorb. And, and my personal history is nothing in comparison to global warming. And so I just try to keep my perspective. 2:52:02 SM: And so when you talk about your lasting legacy that is what you are saying then ̶ 2:52:08 PK: That what? 2:52:09 SM: What do you hope your lasting legacy will be and what would you think the lasting legacy ̶ 2:52:15 PK: Oh my lasting legacy, I want to be that whoever I inspired will inspire other people, so it continues on with the without me. You know, I have my goal was to communicate without compromise, which is what Lenny's was and most of the people I know, and I was fortunate enough to be in a position to be able to do that. And then so you know, if I can whenever something happens, I am always aware of, is something I can do about this or not something I could do about it? And if there is not something I can do about it then I go on to the next thing. And, you know, and it is a lot of decisions, whatever passes before your perception. You know, going to get involved and not get involved. And the older I get, the more of my priorities fall in place. And it is too late, you know, I would like to have the novel I am working on become a best seller, but if it doesn't, at this point, you know, as my wife once said "process his product" and so I am enjoying the process of it. 2:53:56 SM: That is what I am doing. 2:53:57 PK: I am pleased through that Simon and Schuster published the autobiography Confessions of a Raging Unconfined Nut, Misadventures in the Counterculture in 1993. And since then, I have expanded on it, and it is about to be published digitally. And so, you know, people will be able to get it on their iPads or whatever. So, so my legacy is, in my case, what I have written, and that can go on and, that is it, you know. 2:54:51 SM: And lastly, what do you think the legacy of this boomer generation will be? Again, if someone is born right after World War II, that was how they were defined. There were all these babies born after World War II. 2:55:05 PK: Well, they are realizing what a commodity they are. You know, there are, as you know, there are a demographic. And what I just read in today's local paper here is that this there are two, at least two senior centers that are taking the word 'senior' out of their title out of the title of the centers they run, because boomers do not like to think of themselves as senior citizens. 2:55:37 SM: Wow. 2:55:40 PK: You know, that is and so that goes to show that they are, you know, that they are worth, that they are worth something as, as consumers. And that is better than nothing at all. 2:56:11 SM: Yeah, and one of the things too, that you bring up in your book is the AARP or something, people that produced that movie on the History Channel about I think it was the hippies. 2:56:24 PK: Yeah. 2:56:25 SM: Yeah, that. 2:56:26 PK: But that had nothing to do with the AARP. 2:56:28 SM: No, did not have anything to do the AARP, but I am saying the history channel that they, it was almost like they, the attackers were more prominent than the people who experienced it or whatever. Are there any questions that I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask? 2:56:47 PK: Oh, just what my favorite color is. 2:56:50 SM: What is your favorite color? 2:56:52 PK: Orange. 2:56:53 SM: Ah, yeah, talking about colors, that flag! Whose idea was the flag for the yippies. Who came up with that design? Yeah, the marijuana plant. I do not have a right in front of me here. Oh yes, I do. Yeah, who came up with a design for the yippie flag? The red star with the marijuana the flag of the youth international party? 2:57:19 PK: You mean the calligraphy? Well, I do not remember off-hand who did come up with that, but, but that is the thing about it. A lot of people in in those days did things boundlessly and did not want credit for it. And in a certain sense, it did not matter. You know? I am going to change my name, to anonymous so that I can get credit for a lot of things that I did not write. 2:58:01 SM: Also, you know, you got Groucho. I guess he tried drugs for the first time? So that was an interesting experience. Would you consider Groucho a real (19)60s person? 2:58:14 PK: Oh, I just never, you know, I think that there is a quality that goes through civilization that there are people they question authority. And, and so I think of Groucho as having as a, as somebody who encouraged questioning authority by making them by his irreverence, and I just do not label him with a ̶ 2:58:56 SM: Very good. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paul Krassner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Krassner, Paul ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors, American--20th century;Journalists; Comedians; Publishers; Realist (New York, N.Y.); Krassner, Paul--Interviews Description An account of the resource Paul Krassner is an author, journalist, comedian, and the founder, editor, and publisher of the Realist magazine. One of the major figures of the 1960s counterculture scene, Krassner is a founding member of the Yippies and the member of Ken Kesey’s Merry Pranksters. He published several books including his autobiography Confessions of a Raving, Unconfined Nut: Misadventures in Counter-Culture. He studied Journalism at Baruch College. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.165a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.165b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 179:00 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bf053a933a7ad48848805363478acdd8.jpeg fab299fe840525267b04a61d9de6f0c9 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/41df9253c6a1a05d908b985f06b51e41.mp3 f4fbe6c8a29bde7c537362164b012350 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-01-30 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Paul Rogat Loeb, 1952- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Paul Loeb, a native of Berkeley, California, is an author, journalist, and political activist. Loeb has published five books and has done interviews for TV and radio including CNN, NBC, and PBS. He has written for many well-known journals and newspapers including The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, The Economist and many more. Loeb graduated from Stanford University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5003,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Paul Loeb, a native of Berkeley, California, is an author, journalist, and political activist. Loeb has published five books and has done interviews for TV and radio including CNN, NBC, and PBS. He has written for many well-known journals and newspapers including the Washington Post, the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, The Economist and many more. Loeb graduated from Stanford University. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 64:52 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Silent generation; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Children of Silent Generation; Newt Gingrich; Senator Edmund Muskie; Ken Burns; Civil War; Confederates; Trust."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14275305}}">Silent generation; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Children of Silent Generation; Newt Gingrich; Senator Edmund Muskie; Ken Burns; Civil War; Confederates; Trust. Subject LCSH Authors; Journalists; Political activists--United States; Loeb, Paul Rogat, 1952--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Paul Loeb Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So Date of interview: 30 January 2010 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:05 SM: Testing. One, two. Thanks again for doing the interview. This is again, the title of my book is called Magic Moments. And it is basically a takeoff of oral history interviews that I have been doing since I was working at West Chester University and then I retired to actually finish the book. The first question I want to ask is one of the writers that really inspired a lot of the boomers was Bertrand Russell, I-I have interviewed so many people and when I asked him Who were some of the influences on the boomers. Russell was one of them. And several people have quoted the very beginning of his book is kind of defining what the boomers are all about. And I like your thoughts on this at the very beginning of his autobiography, it says the three simples when asked what-what is the boomer generation All About and then respond three passions, simple, but overwhelmingly strong, have governed my life, the longing for love, search for knowledge, and unbearable pity for the suffering of mankind. What are your thoughts on Bertrand's thoughts there in his autobiography and how they might also be defined with a boomer generation? 1:25 PL: Well, you know, hard-hard question. I mean, I would say that, I mean, I was somebody who admired him, but I honestly actually had not read his work. So, so I am not one of the people who-who is sort of, you know, you know, who he was a pivotal figure for who but, I mean, I think it is probably two parts. You know, one of the things I think is really, really important to, to underscore is that there is no such thing as a monolithic generation. And so, if I looked at the people who were active, including myself, you know, during the Vietnam era, during the civil rights right stuff. You are all the, you know, social justice fight. And I look at the people like, you know, George Bush who are cruising through, you know, as drunken frat boys or-or, you know, or I mean, not just from the privileges, you know, but-but there were a lot of people who were not part of those movements. I think it is important to understand that the experience was fundamentally different. Um, there is a really good book, and-and have you seen it called Beyond the Barricades [The Sixties Generation Grows Up] by Richard Flacks and Jack Whalen? Do you know that? 2:29 SM: I think I have not. 2:30 PL: Okay, yeah. Because they were taking for granted, they did this, I do not know, 15 years ago, maybe they were looking at people in Santa Barbara, who were sort of very active during the period when the Bank of America got burned, although not always participating in it. And people were sort of hostile to those movements, you know, over-over and above the issue of the bank, when they really saw as people kind of following out those paths, you know, to this day, and, you know, so I got really angry when the media was sort of saying these tea baggers are probably the same people who were the radicals of the (19)60s that was like excuse me, where was your evidence? Have you interviewed any of them? No, you know, you know, there is, it is just like this assumption, I think, I think it is important to understand that, you know, those who have gotten involved to a certain, how to describe it to a certain degree. And there is a sort of threshold level. So, you know, if you were really involved and went down to Mississippi, or if you were organizing a whole lot at a college, you know, just doing all these things, the likelihood was that you stayed involved in citizen movement, and progressive movement. You know, if you were at the fringes, you know, I mean, it was not the same thing to me at the edge of a, you know, of a rock concert that, you know, was perfectly fine, but it was not. It is not a political engagement. And I think that there was a lot of conflation so there was conflation on two levels. There was a kind of false conflation of people who-who were kind of coming have shared some of the sentiments but were not involved with people who were involved. And then there was people conflation people who did not share any of the sentiments at all with people who were involved, and so you say, well look, you know, look, there was people on there, they were, you know, supporting regressive candidates or, you know, or whatever. But they never were, they never were engaged in a sort of progressive way to begin with. So, so I think that that that caveat, really important to make clear, and just any-any-any study of the generation. Now, if you were looking at those who were not getting involved, you know, and again, there was sort of two classes, there was two groups of three. You know, there was the people who were actively working for social justice or against the war. And then there was the people who are kind of at the periphery, we sympathize. Now, obviously, the effectiveness says of the movements of that time, it depended on being able to draw in those sympathizers so that their, their attitudes were not irrelevant by any means. But it to now, I think you just have to draw a very careful line where you end up, you know, basically creating a narrative. Somebody said, well, you know, they were a hippie then and look at them now and where did they go? Right. And, you know, so I think that is the point in terms of Russell's statement, you know, circling back to your question. I mean, I think, I think that there was an upwelling of compassion, and, you know, you know, whatever that character’s phrase, you would just use, you know, for something. I mean, I think there really was, and there was a sort of sense that does, you know, why are we-we are listening to us, you know, why are we not living up to our values, we should be living up to our values, and our values include treating people with justice. So, when I say I think that that, you know, that really, really was a current, you know, the need for love. I mean, I do not know, you know, do we need it more than other folks, you get more? Unless you are on that one. I like it, you know, it is like, I like to be loved, but, but you know, you know, my dad who is 81 got it. You know, it means a lot to him to. I am not sure that that is something that is generationally based to be honest. Right. You know, I would hesitate on that one. Um, but I think it was kind of upwelling of compassion. And I cannot remember the third aspect well. 6:14 SM: Well knowledge, the search for knowledge. 6:16 PL: Well, the search for knowledge, but I think that there was a sense that the, the verities of the times, which were sort of forged in the post, in the Cold War, post-World War. Two consensus that they were worth questioning, at least among a lot of people. Now, one of the, I did not tend to think, is that the completely legitimate critique, say from the left, and it has some point, dovetailing with some of the critiques from the right, and sort of helped to dismantle some of that social welfare state. That was a kind of unfortunate consequence. Right? You know, when I say search for knowledge, you know, the knowledge of basically saying, well, let us question everything. So-so I think there was that certainly people were trying to think things through anew. And that was good in many ways. But sometimes it made people a little contemptuous for what had been achieved. And that was- 7:10 SM: One of the things that when you look at the boomer generation is oftentimes the influence they had on their children, which is the generation Xers and actually now, when you go to the colleges, only about 15 percent of the men, millennials are sons or daughters of boomers. So, it is mostly generation X kids is so- 7:31 PL: So here is the thing he really because I did that book on-on students. Right, that really strapped I mean, problem, I think when you are trying to define that, is if you look at the generation X folks, a lot of their parents were from the what everyone calls that previous generation, the silent generation, you know, you know, Korean generation, and now it is kind of to charge but you know, the generation of sort of, you know, Korean age, and you know, came of age in the (19)50s. So, a lot of their parents were from that and again, you have distinguish between early and late boomer, I mean, boomers if you were coming up in (19)62, or three versus (19)68, or (19)69, totally different world, right, you know, and I mean, if you look at them in the figures in, think of this is in Seoul citizen, I could look, probably, I will look it up, because I know I know it is in there and therefore, I can just find it and give it to you, that, hold on a sec. What I am trying to find is the, of Wisconsin. That should do it. Okay, so basically, here is your- here is the figures laid is 19 sentences from Seoul citizen directly. The latest 1966 National antiwar demonstration drew more than 25,000 people. More than 70 percent of students at University of Wisconsin, a future radical hotbed bill approved of America's involvement in Vietnam. In the spring of 1968 not one 39 major newspapers in the Boston Globe survey, favored pulling out our troops? So, you know, when I look at that, what does that say that it is you are coming of age in (19)63 you are coming of age in a period where everyone is supporting the war, now coming age, and not that many are involved in (19)69 very different. So, I think that if you look at the children, the children of the, you know, of that previous generation, or have that sort of first, the non-engaged flights of the boomer generation, tended to be quite conservative. And in fact, that generation that cohort is, you know, is a very conservative cohort. Um, you know, in terms of their voting, you know, when they were they vote Republican. And but I think it is inaccurate to say, oh, these are the children of the (19)60s activists. And then, you know, and again, the millennials kind of split, you know, and obviously, every year, right, smaller, I mean, like, my stepson, graduated from college this year, I was at the tail end of the Vietnam generation. So, he is still the end, you know, Children of the Vietnam cohort, right? But, you know, he is kind of, it is kind of near the end of it. Um, so I think I think that um, again, it gets complicated because all depends on where you draw the dividing line. 10:15 SM: Yeah, I know that there was, there was another book that you are probably well aware of it was written by Wanda Urbanska, which was called Singular Generation. Yep. And she, she is written in 1986. She was a graduate of Harvard. And she mentioned that as other generations had been marked permanently by war, and it is aftereffects. Our generation, which is Generation X has been marked by divorce, which over half of our parents who were the boomers have been divorced in our reaction to the instability through the social protest movements, and a lot more of a stability in their lives? Not- 10:53 PL: Yeah, I do not know. I mean, I think I did. I did not remember the name, but I mean, certainly remember reading that theory. I mean, I am mixed about it, because um, I mean, certainly it is true that they are, you know, that divorce rates went up, but then you know, you know, I mean, my, well, this piggyback generation, but like, my grandparents on my mom's side, my mom's parents were in a 60 plus your marriage. That was a horrible marriage. You know, it worked out. I mean, it was, it should never have been married together. It was awful. And, you know, so I think, yeah, there is a tradeoff of divorce, but there was also the tradeoff of those people sticking it out in truly horrible marriages. You know, like my grandparents. And, I mean, from the outside, it may have looked good, but from the inside, it was abysmal. And they were torture, they were torturing each other every day. I mean, I you know, I watched it every time I did, I went over, right. And I love both of them, but still. So, you know, I think that it is a little tricky to say that they were you know, marked by- I mean, it did shift some things and certainly the entrance of women into the workforce shifts a whole lot. Probably I would say even more, you know, it because suddenly you had, you know women work. But you know, and then there, you know, and then it is complicated because it is the gen X folks, and these are the people that I actually wrote a generation of crossroads on. Mm hmm. Are they reacting against the, say the (19)60s protests directly? No, because they were too young. Right? They were, they were responding to the media's caricatures of those, which is what they have inherited. Because they were, again, they were too young to respond directly, because they did not, you know, they were not born yet. Or they were really tight and really young. So, so I think it is, yeah, so I think I would kind of take issue on that. I mean, I, you know, I think probably they more and more shaped by, you know, by the lull in direct participation, and by the sort of media caricatures of protests, and they were with any direct experience positive or negative. 12:59 SM: Paul, when you um, I want to ask you a question is how did you become who you are, um, when you first, you know, when we brought you to West Chester University back in the early (19)90s. And I remember you visiting the campus and I remember when you left, the students were saying he is so different, and he has got such passion. I wish I had it, because you are a deep thinker, but what made you who you are to be to think so deeply about these issues, not only about your generation, but the generations that followed? How did this happen? Well, who are the role models that inspired you? 13:38 PL: Well, I mean, I, I often say they were sort of a couple of people directly on there was a rabbi. He was in Seoul of a Citizen, Leonard Biermann, he was just very outspoken, and, you know, I was growing up and he was just, I could tell he was thinking off the rip. So, you know, that, um, that that made me more receptive. And there was a very outspoken young history teacher who was taking a lot of risks. And I think those were probably the two biggest models. You know, where I just saw people speaking out. And-and somehow, I just felt like I had a responsibility to do something about things that were wrong about that from the beginning. 14:19 SM: Did you ever in your life ever pay a price for this? 14:23 PL: Well, personally, I mean, I suppose so. You know, it sort of depends on your definition of pain of paying a price. I actually write about this in the new edition of soul citizen a little bit- 14:33 SM: When is that coming out by the way? 14:34 PL: April, March 30th. 14:36 SM: Yeah, because I got that. I got some of your books right with me here, including that generation at the crossroads. First editions of that. 14:42 PL: Yeah. So, um, yeah, I mean, I was very active at Stanford. And we were active around military recruiting particularly corporations tied to military, right and, um, so a bunch of my friend Pete Knutsen and myself and several other people went into a recruiting room where a few pictures of Honeywell was doing cluster bombs and we swiped pictures of their victims, and we refused to leave. And we ended up getting indefinitely suspended. So, you know, in that sense, I suppose I paid a cost in that I, you know, I did not graduate from Stanford. But I actually, you know, as I write, you know, reflecting on it, did it destroy my life did it you know, make, I mean, it was a little hard to make the transition, but I, you know, actually sound like a lot of new I moved to New York, a lot of new possibilities opened up so I, you know, the one of the lessons is, you may do something that looked like, you are paying a cost, but in fact, you are not really paying. I mean, you know, you are in some low abstract level, but it does not really make your life worse. So-so I suppose you could say that that was closest I have come to, you know, paying a cost beyond just, you know, you know what, everyone goes all insensitive. You know, you are going to get your heart broken periodically, you know, and that I suppose that the cost too. 15:59 SM: I know it is. 16:01 PL: You are going to feel like overloaded. You know, you know, too many things. But-but not in the sense of, you know, I am not I have not been tortur- I mean, I have been, you know, I have been in civil disobedience a few times, but I knew I was going to get arrested. So, I was not, you know, that was not an honor. It did not feel like a real cost. 16:18 SM: Yeah. So how do you respond when you I say to specific instances in 1994 when Newt Gingrich came into power, and this is not an attack against republicans or anything, but when he came into power, I read some of his speeches. And he made a lot of commentary about the (19)60s and about the Vietnam generation. And a lot of the bad things that were happening in America at the time he came into power is due directly to that era. Back there, back in the (19)60s, and I know George will oftentimes when he writes, we will, we will take a shot at the right generation and there is several others that put the blame of everything in our society on that era. 17:01 PL: Well, it is garbage. I mean, basically people who read, you know, goof supported nothing but a regressive social order that hand power over to the wealthiest. And when people just shut up and be silent about it, and said they were scapegoating, those times when people actually challenged it, and they do that, of course, by trying to caricature the excesses, because every movement going to have it? You know, flaky moment? And, you know, but I mean, it is, I would argue that it is, it- Well, I mean, maybe it is their belief, but I call it bad faith. You know, certainly bad history. Not that day. 17:38 SM: I know, you cannot generalize a whole generation, because we are talking anywhere between 70 to 78 million people that were boomers, I have got books that say we had 74. But can you- kind of I know there was the-the early boomers, as you mentioned, who were really involved and then you get the later boomers who did not have the experiences as like the early boomers, but can you, can you give some qualities, some strengths and weaknesses of the generation? 18:08 PL: Well, again, I do not like lumping it together. 18:10 SM: Okay. Very good. 18:11 PL: You know, I am very hesitant. Because, I mean, I can talk about the strengths of the people involved in the movement, but- 18:18 SM: That, I think that is what I am going to get at, because- 18:20 PL: Okay, what that I can do, but I just, I just want to make clear, I mean, Gingrich is part of the generation. 18:25 SM: Yes. 18:27 PL: Karl Rove was part of the generation I think he is, yeah. You know, so these people who is, you know, I mean, I feel nothing in common with these people. Is not that I am a carbon, we are both carbon-based life forms, you know, and even their- you know, I feel a hell a lot more common with my friends dogs than I do with a Gingrich or Karl Rove you know, so we are going to random-random dog I meet in the street. So, you know, in terms of the movement itself, Frank, I think, you know, there was a really powerful moral witness and people did have this sense of, you know, I am going to try and actually act on something again, even if there are not, as you mentioned, even if there are some costs. I think that that is very powerful. Now, you know, sometimes it got kind of megaloman- megalomaniacal, I mean, you know, there were people who believed revolution was around the corner. And, you know, and we were things that created a culture of fear, did things that created the juice that people like Gingrich and wail on those folks used to sort of create the caricature. So, to that was certainly destructive. But you know, but it was mostly destructive. I mean, was not really that society. I would it was mostly oh, no, but-but-but destroying the move. I mean, if I looked at the people like the weathermen, or there was this group, where I was at Stanford, strutting around with the little A.K 47 buttons on their jackets, and, you know, they did help destroy the movement. There is no question about that. And, you know, and-and I think, you know, there are some serious, you know, at least criticism or blame or whatever. And some of the people I mean, if you look at somebody like Mark Raj, who is very active with the weatherman has been very-very, you know, publicly self-critical and just said, look, you know, you know, yeah, we did, you know, we did some things, you know, we were important. We did things in good faith, but we were all different things, many, many things that were disastrous. Do not romanticize those things because they are not worth, you know, they are not, they are not things that should be emulated. 20:28 SM: Mm hmm. I am interviewing him Monday. 20:30 PL: Okay. Oh, yeah. Tell him hi. 20:32 SM: Yeah. Yeah. What are they? What are the qualities that many boomers though used to say, and I am this might be across the board in that is this feeling of uniqueness, that we are a very unique generation, we are going to end war? We are going to bring healing to the world, almost kind of a utopian kind of a mentality. 20:54 PL: You know, I think there was an interesting move, if you look to the part of it was the economy and the size of the generation, I mean, I think that there was this sort of sense of profit, there was a sense of possibility that, you know, I felt like, I mean, it was not true for everybody. I mean, if you grew up economically really poor, you did not have that kind of possibility. Or you did not have nearly as much. But I mean, if you grew up, certainly, if you grew up middle class, you really did. And you saw it, okay, things are going to get better. And you can do whatever, you know, you could do whatever you-you know, sit your heart on, and-and you could attack the society could tackle problems. And there was a lot. Yeah, I mean, do not forget, there were I mean, at that point, in right after World War II, I mean, Europe and Japan's economies were in ruins, you know, they had been bombed, you know, and fought over. And so, we were really the lonely large, you know, the large, healthy, advanced industrial power, because, England, but they were a lot smaller, and bombed to, you know, they kind of emerged unscathed, strong and just, you know, dominated that post war era. So, I think some of that rubbed off in the sense of I mean, tendency was arrogance to those who was possibility, you know if it was good and bad, but I think it did say, yeah, we could solve the problem. Now, you know, fast forward to now, it is a lot bleaker. People are a lot more skeptical and cynical. I think that is true. 22:17 SM: Oftentimes, in when you talk about the generalities that the Gingrich’s and will use it continue. I know, Will does that all the time. I have got one of his latest books. He has got a couple essays in there taking the shots. But another thing that was often used against the generation was something that may have been sure that only 15 percent of the boomers were truly involved in activism in their youth. Right, and they use it as a negative knowing that if you really look at the statistics there, you are dealing with 15 percent of 70 plus million, which is a lot of people. 22:53 PL: Yeah, I mean, I just, I mean, I do not know if I would just, I do not think it is a negative. It is just the reality. I mean, it is just as, yeah, you know, this was not everybody. And it usually is not in any context in any social movement. And look at what was accomplished, I would say an awful lot of really important powerful things by, you know, a relatively modest amount of people. And that should be an inspiration. I do not think it should be a knock, knock. And it certainly should not be a knock on those people who acted like somehow there was something wrong with them, because it was not 100 percent of the people throwing them. I mean, that would be a ridiculous argument. 23:33 SM: That is like when you look at the generation X that you have talked about, which are the kids, oftentimes the kids of the Korean War era, or, you know, the (19)60s. These qualities oftentimes come out here. And maybe you can generalize again, even about the generation Xers. Here is some of the qualities, the parents’ divorce rate. They grew up in an era radically different from the one that gave rise to the (19)60s generation. The parents divorce rate, the downturn in jobs, the one in four household where there is a single adult to be financially self-sufficient, singular in loving relationships and that and rebel against chaos and disorder where the boomers were rebelling against the system, that these are certainly some of the qualities that the generation Xers have. But maybe we are dealing with the same thing, Paul. Yeah, I think, cannot generalize about them either. 24:26 PL: Yeah, I think there is divisions within the generation. I mean, it really is, you know, they are, you know, they are the, they are people. You know, I think that the economic instability is real. I mean, let us, you know, recognize it basically, since about (19)73 of the US economy for most people, and going downhill for the rich it is not, most people it has, and so they were very much affected by that. And you know, and so they grew up in that context, so does not you know, as a quote millennial, those of us hearing coming of age in Vietnam, we are, you know, was a period of rising, you know, rising standards of living and rising affluence and, and, you know, surely being fairly distributed. So, you are not fairly but you know, more so than now. So, I think I think that that affects, you know that the insecurity affects people. I think the media stereotype protected people. I think, I mean again, the divorce rate is so complicated because if I looked at the people who did and did not get involved, and the ones who like when I was doing generation, the cross, who had what I would consider sort of generous, or socially engaged sensibility, you know, some of them came from, you know, pro down, you know, intact homes. Some of them came from divorced home. Some of the most just people with the awfulest sensibility came from, you know, very traditional family. So, I do not think you can necessarily, you know, sort of draw on the divorce act, just say, okay, this leads people to withdraw from engagement, this leads people to engage. It is very complicated. And I always try to make four arguments either way. 26:08 SM: In your eyes, when did the (19)60s begin the watershed moment? And what was the watershed moment when it ended? 26:15 PL: Oh, I do not know. You know, I mean, it, you know, it is, there is lots of watershed, you know, I mean, there is the obvious ones, you know, Berkeley Free Speech Movement, there is the, you know, the early sort of second wave of, I mean, the Civil Rights Movement is building and building, but there still was a kind of surge with those effects. I think we were (19)59 even. So, it is like the Greensville the lunch counter said in some of the first places. I am always bad on dates, but, you know, those were in the very beginning and they kind of, you know, took things to a level higher than they have been, you know, so you could date that, you know, when does it end? You know, hard to say I mean, obviously, by the time the Vietnam War ends in mid (19)70s. It is over. But is it still, you know, I mean, I think you would be insane to say that, like the year 1970, which had Kent State, which had the most kind of the highest level of protests in anywhere was not part of the (19)60s, obviously it was? And it was no, you know, I mean, you could say that there is turning, you know, when King or Kennedy was shot, that was the turning point and stuff starts spiraling down. And, you know, maybe, well, attendees pretty early, but you know, are in and, you know, in (19)68, I mean, yeah, I think people started damping hope to at that point, you know, getting more cynical and despairing. But you know, it is hard to know when it exactly ends. I mean, I, I remember I moved after I got kicked out of Stanford, which was it was the spring of (19)72 that I got kicked out. And so, then I moved to New York City to finish school in the fall of (19)70. And I thought, gee, New York, the whole lot less active than then, you know, we were in the bay. area. Well, maybe that was maybe it was not. But part of what we are seeing is the beginning of sort of the diminishing energy of those movements. They are still around, they still were pretty large, but they were definitely less than they had been two years ago. You know, two years before and by another two years, they were markedly less still. 28:20 SM: When we took a group of students when I was the university, I would say about 10 years ago, we took a group down to Washington, we met Senator Muskie before he passed away. And the students were working on questions with me. And the question we wanted to ask is what he felt about that 1968 convention and whether we were heading toward a second Civil War kind of breakdown of our society. And so, I want to read this because this is the event question that we asked him and then he responded in a totally different way than we thought he was going to. Here is the question. Do you feel boards are still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore this nation apart in their youth, divisions between fat black and white, gay and straight male and female divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? In your view, what does the Vietnam Memorial play in healing the divisions that was primarily a healing? Or was it just primarily healing for veterans? And finally, do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation not truly healing? And the reason why they said that is because I have taken students to Gettysburg, and we had people there talking about how had not healed since the Civil War. Am I wrong and thinking this or is four years made the statement Time heals all wounds a truth? I am really getting into the question here. Do we have a healing issue in the nation within this generation? That never really came to terms with the divisions? And when the- 29:55 PL: Well, that is a good question I mean, you know, certainly some of the divisions are there, and all the gay, straight one is there less than I think in the younger people, but certainly in older people, you know, if you were gay, it was a miserable time to be gay. But the too there, there was a sort of, there was different kinds of divisions, if you have listened to there was the, you know, the divisions of class and race and all that, you know, which, you know, which our society is still very much wrestling with. And then there was a sort of political division. You know no, I mean, you know, I think that there partly because people did continue on down the, you know, a lot of them, you know, there are certainly still some lingering, you know, if you are really on the other side, and hostile to these movements, you know, I probably have a little bit of mistrust. On the other hand, you know, we have had the sort of crucible of eight years, or I do not know what your congress but-but-but it was that eight years of George Bush, and, you know, so I am like to look at people's response during that period a lot more closely. If they are my age than I do their responses 40 years ago and say, well, where were they? Which side Were they on? Did they respond? Did they do anything? You know? And so, if somebody, you know, if somebody responded, in a way question where I think we are the fastest abuses of the Bush period, and they were on the other side for me during Vietnam, I think my response, if anything is gratitude. It is like, oh, that is great. You know, 30-40 years ago, they were on the other side. And now here, you know, now here, they are, they are recognizing that there is a real problem push. So, if anything, I probably like more Facebook them, anybody who has been active on my own side all along. On the other hand, the people who were like, you know, gung-ho for Vietnam and gung-ho for Iraq and all that. Well, you know, I got to say that I do not think they have been very good for the country, you know. 31:53 SM: Right, yeah. It is kind of the, the way muskie responded was that he did not respond at all about the-the (19)68 convention and, you know, confrontation between the police and the and the young people. He basically said that we have not healed from the Civil War. And then he went on for about 15 minutes to explain why he felt that way. Because he had been in the hospital, he saw the Ken Burns film series when he was in the hospital. And he said, do you realize as young people if you know your history that over 430,000 men died in that war? And it was almost an entire generation that we could have? We could have that we lost because of the best. 32:35 PL: Yeah-yeah, that is kind of interesting. I mean, I would, I would say is that that he, basically, that the Confederates never completely surrendered, and are a destructive force in our society still. I mean, that is, you know, I mean, if I looked at the base of the Republican Party, not all of it, but a bunch of it is in that, you know, old unreconstructed doubt in some ways and those old power structures that just, you know, I mean, they, you know, slavery ended and then there was segregation, and they made a few accommodations. But you know, it the white party of the South, you know, not entirely, you know, but a lot of it is its strongest base. And it is basically, you know, it is the party, though it is the party that resisted any attempt that, you know, those seats resisted any unionization. Right, you know, workers did not have any alternative. The religious institutions will, you know, with every, you know, some really important exceptions, primarily lined up on the the ones in the white culture are lined up on the wrong side in the Civil Rights battles, you know, and are still supporting to me my own kind of culture of plantation politics and greed. And again, I mean, I do not, you know, I know incredible activists in the South, they are doing wonderful thing. But I do think this that sort of unreconstructed Confederacy is, or you know, they are not-not unreconstructed. You know, only modestly reconstructed, etc. inveterate ethic. I think he is still alive and well, and, you know, it was running the show and a lot of ways during the Bush years. So, um, so that would be the way that I would say that from it. The number who died well, you know, that is a long time ago and I do not, you know, they had whatever legacy, you know, obviously those people were not around afterwards. That does not, you know, by now they would have all been dead anyway. So that is a failure. 34:22 SM: But I think the last Civil War veteran died in 1924. They have a statue for him in the Gettysburg Battlefield. 34:30 PL: Yeah. So, you know, it is a politics that is continued and that, that is real. 34:34 SM: You can kind of see it when you go to go to Gettysburg, you go on the southern side to see all the flags and flowers left on the north, you do not see anything. So, I just find that I go over four times a year and it is amazing. Two qualities here that I think are important in the boomer generation, this is all 70 plus million. And that is even though people may not have been involved in that 15 percent that were, you have got to say that the boomers were kind of a movement generation with the civil rights, the antiwar, and certainly the gay and lesbian, Native American, Chicano, environmental movements that came forth. And the second quality is the fact that they are very- they do not trust. And that was for obvious reasons, because so many of the leaders lied to them. And-and so and so, do you consider this generation of very non trusting generation and then a generation that really is a movement generation? 35:34 PL: Well, I mean, I think that there is more. Yeah, I think there is more skepticism. You know, that is definitely true, certainly than the- Well, again, it is tricky, because I think that all the generation now is equally untrusting. So, I think you know, that it is a period of the time, you know, pre (19)60s posting the level of reciprocity, that that is what I would argue the difference is. 35:58 SM: Do you think that some political science professors will say when they teach American government that a little bit of skepticism is healthy for democracy. 36:10 PL: Oh, a little, yeah. I mean, it is definitely you want skepticism, but you do not want it to devolve into complete cynicism and uptake. You know, that is the that is the line that that we have got to be walking its sort of- 36:25 SM: What, Jan Scrunch wrote a book on the Vietnam Memorial called to Heal a Nation, and it was the kick, it came out about 1987 I believe it was pretty good book. And he talks about building that wall not only to heal the Vietnam Veterans and their families and those who died in the war, but in a sense to heal the nation as a whole. With respect to that war. What do you think that wall was done? 36:50 PL: I do think that what is interesting is the people who visited whatever their perspectives are moved by it. The ones who support the war, you know, they sort of see, you know, here are the people who died in the just cause and the ones who oppose the war, like myself see it as a testament to just the complete madness of that war. But, you know, and by-by basically going to, I mean, you know, you should, you know, to really be realistic about the impact of that war, you would have a memorial as well for the Vietnamese, Laotians and Cambodians. And it would stretch, you know, halfway across Washington, DC, you know, I mean, a million to 2 million people died. But for the at least for the US side, it does come to you know, how do I describe it. People respond and are moved by the death. And everybody's respond by interestingly though, the number of times I have been there, the-the sort of political writing systems that they have this sort of kind of heroic that you nearby of the GIS and stuff, he goes to that I mean, they kind of give two seconds of a look. And it does not ring true, I do not think. But the wall rings true. And wall rings true for everybody. 38:07 SM: Of all the terrible events and good events that happened in the (19)50s (19)60s and (19)70s, is there one that sticks out in your mind more than any other? That may, that may have had been the greatest shock to a generation not only the activists, but the subconsciously affected the entire generation? 38:29 PL: God? I do not know. I mean, nothing, you know, I mean, there is still, there is obvious terrible events, you know, like assassination. Um, and, you know, there is sort of moments of great possibility, like, the huge protests and marches and stuff. But I do not really think that I do not think you can say here is the defining event or something like that. 38:52 SM: In your I think you were born in (19)52? 38:54 PL: Correct. 38:55 SM: Yeah. Obviously, you were very young in the (19)50s. But there was something About that you are talking about boomers. Now we are talking about from (19)46 to (19)64. And then you got the two groups. As we talked about it, everything seemed to be hunky dory, everything was fine. You know, parents were home from the war, giving their kids everything, they wanted. And even though we had the threat of nuclear disaster every day and McCarthy hearings for those that can remember early on about that man yelling on TV that people were communists and the fear and all that other stuff, and then the television shows of the (19)50s where kids seem to always be happy, and there did not seem to be too many African Americans or people of color on those shows. And then all of a sudden, the (19)60s came and some people saw realization that the- what was going on in the (19)50s was really they were hiding things right. I interviewed, Richie Havens, and Richie Havens said the (19)50s was the hidden generation. Everything was hidden and the truth finally came out? Yeah. Yeah. Do you have you when in your studies of young people, when you study them? Do they talk about the media and the-the-the effects that it has had on them? 40:17 PL: No, I do not you know I think I think they take it for granted. I mean, I think to say, oh, you know, it is like, they do not even think that much about oh, you know, I do not think they, they think this is, you know, this is what the media influencing me, this is how the media is influencing. They just think, no, this is what I know about the world, and I do not think they think that much about, like, where it came from. 40:56 SM: What, I am going to ask a couple questions here about specific events, and how but what they mean to you in the big scheme of things for the-the boomer generation and maybe in American history as a whole. What does the Kent State and Jackson state killings mean to you? 41:14 PL: Well, what they meant to me is that they are, you know, a couple of things. I mean, they, they meant that the Nixon, you know, regime, which I sort of blame for them, in some ways, certainly, in the case of Kent State, and I think probably Jackson State too, you know, sort of there was a test that, you know, go ahead, you know, fire on protesters, that they were willing to kill people. And I think it did really scare people make people angry. It had a dual effect. I mean, it, it escalated things. But it but it also, it also kind of, you know, probably did dawn people somewhat but it definitely it definitely raised the stakes. 42:00 SM: What does Watergate mean to you? 42:04 PL: Well, I mean, Watergate, it is interesting because it is it. It is a profound betrayal of the political process. And fortunately, it came to light. What is discouraging though, is if you fast forward, the Republican Party did not stop doing those things. So, you know, the [inaudible] politic was about exactly the same kinds of things. And the abuses in Florida, 2000 and Ohio 2004 that, in my view, both cases elected George Bush and reelected him. Um, those were coming out of the same. I mean, you know, it is sort of like you have got the rules, and you may not like the rules, but you live within the rules. We may try and, you know, you know, whatever at the end, you know, if you act in a certain way and your party gets a little advantage because of the way the rules happened to be written, well, that is life. But when you start breaking the rules, then it can get pretty ugly pretty quickly, which I think it did in the case of Watergate. I mean, I know evil pro was the guy who hired the guy [inaudible] He was the guy who hired G. Gordon Liddy originally. And he said, and he went to jail for Watergate and then really repented. And he said to me, he said, we almost destroyed. He said, as a judge, too. But, you know, when we were talking, I said, you know, we almost destroyed democracy. We are so convinced that the stakes were so high, that we had to do whatever we needed, whatever needed to be done, and we almost destroyed democracy. Pretty scary. 43:39 SM: What does Woodstock and the Summer of Love mean to you? They are two different things. 43:45 PL: Well, I mean, Woodstock was a concert. I mean, I guess it got a solid. Yes, it did get mythologized. But, you know, by the right in the left, you know, left is like, you know, Woodstock nation. You know, the right is like the dirty hippies are taking over. It was a big you know; it was a big concert. I mean, I, you know, if I lived on the East coast, I probably would have gone to it. I did not because I lived on the West coast. But, you know, I think that the idea of inflating it into some statement, or political movement is just ridiculous. I mean, it was, you know, other than the fact that, you know, it shows that there are a lot of people who like rock music and like to smoke. Yeah, we did not take other drugs. And then there was a general sentiment against the war. But it was not an activist effort. It just never was. You know, the Summer of Love was in it was sort of I mean, like, I well, I guess that is a slightly well, no, that is I think that is where that song I was thinking there as there was that Eric Burdon song about San Francisco and stuff and where is flowers near here? Yeah. 44:48 SM: Lee Hazelwood. I think. 44:51 PL: That was Lee Hazelwood without yeah-yeah-yeah. Burton wrote song about? 44:54 SM: I am not sure. 44:58 PL: I cannot, Burton wrote some terrible songs. I just remember always being from whoever gave oh, hold on a second. Maybe the furnace people are here. 45:10 SM: A few more minutes here. Okay, go. 45:14 PL: Yeah, so oh, I always this sort of say I mean, I, you know, I think that, you know, that psychedelic, that you know, mixed effect. And for me, I enjoyed the stuff that I took, but I always really, whoever gave Eric Burdon acid, I was I was just, you know, a tire Hitman because he was so good before he took acid. He was so insipid after he you know, it is bad. Yeah. I mean, there were musicians who said, you know, when they bloomed when they took acid, but he was, you know, again, I look at the Summer of Love and oh, that was what I was thinking of a girl called Dan dos. I mean, I was pretty stupid. You know, it was like, well, yeah, there was a whole bunch of people coming in. Uh, you know, to the Hayden wherever and I mean, it was, I do not know, again, maybe because I am more rooted in the political side, just sort of feel like, it was nice, you know, nothing against any of those folks. But the idea that somehow growing your hair out, you know, well, you know, we are taking smoking marijuana instead of drinking alcohol would somehow usher in a political change is just kind of silly and I think the media kind of inflated that. 46:36 SM: Let me turn my tape here we got fifteen- What-what did the counterculture mean to you? 46:40 PL: Well, again, I think the counterculture was sort of a yearning, you know, and again, I mean, you know, some of it did get realized. I mean, for instance, Vermont politics changed because of the counterculture because a lot of people settled and went back to the land in Vermont, and it was a small state and, you know, if they are, you know, now they got Bernie Sanders. So, it was not completely apolitical, and it was not completely detached to the impact. But I think that, generally speaking, again, it was just it was lifestyle, and it was recreation and no and-and that was fine. I had nothing against it. I mean, I, you know, I would like some of those drugs. But you know, in moderation, you know, otherwise I would not have bought near with, and I am glad I did not go near. Yeah, I have always had a pretty sharp dish and, you know, soft and heartbroken, you know, never touched those other ones. I am glad I did not. Um, but I do think that, you know, the, the idea that you can sort of carve out your own private retreat. I think that that that is sort of a very American fallacy. We are all interconnected, and you got to deal with the big public issue. 47:52 SM: What about the hippies in the hippies. Your thoughts on them? 47:56 PL: Well, I mean, the hippies were an attempt to politicize the counterculture. Anyway. To some extent it worked. I mean, they, you know, I mean, I never liked Jerry Rubin, I always thought he would just be a jerk, you know, and then the kill your parents’ stuff. No stupid. But you know, Abbie Hoffman was a great, I mean, he was a great founder. And he was, you know, he funny and imaginative. And I remember being a teenager being really inspired by him because he was so creative. And there was such a sense of play, and humor. So, I think that that, you know, that that 10th actually was, you know, I liked what they did. I mean, you know, does he could he really make a movement of it? I do not know, but you could, you could certainly use elements of it in any movement that you know, display and the humor and they, you know, I mean, I remember when they scattered money, I think they walled off the stock exchange with plastic, you know, barriers now, but it was true money down on the floor, and all these brokers were like, scrambling for it is, I mean, that was a wonderful moment. And you know, and it was completely nonviolent. It was creative, and I, you know, did-did that move American politics in a good direction? Yeah, I think it did. You know, um, you know versus stuff that created real fear of backlash. So yeah, I liked the moment they did. 49:06 SM: Your thoughts on the Students for Democratic Society/Weathermen. And then the Civil Rights Movement/Black Power, Black Panthers. 49:16 PL: I mean, I think in both cases, that you know, what happened is that a lot of frustration and bitterness is that the pace of change was slow. And so, you know, a lot of these so if you look at some of the people that were, you know, in SDS, even the ones that some of the ones went in weathermen started out very idealistic, and they were an accountant, or were they all the players, but like, you know, they were like teaching in an alternative school in a poor neighborhood and stuff like that. And then I think they just got weighed down by guilt and anger. And, you know, here was what they were doing, and people were dying, which was true, and the war was not ending so you have to escalate and bring it home. And when they did not recognize is a that the peaceful nonviolent protests were having an impact. But Nixon just did not acknowledge that. I mean, was a huge more horrendous stop from nine to stop them from potentially using nuclear weapons and vs North Vietnam. And you know, in his in his memoirs and all those, you know, memories, people worked with them. But people are getting really frustrated, you know, and so and then what they did basically destroy the movement because people looked at, and they thought, this is crazy. You know, both people in the movement, people sympathetic. And then people outside it just said, the fear. And allowed Reagan and George Wallace and all these people to run against it. The same thing is true to some extent on the black, you know, the black nationalist movements from the Black Panthers is you had people who well its complicated. Um, you know, certainly there were good community projects that some of those did, you know, the free breakfast and the free clinics and all that stuff. And they kind of built the political base that led to changing what you know, well in the Panthers, open, good ways, but again, all the sort of militaristic running around all that day is to make them good targets for the cops to, you know, go crazy. And then you add in with that sort of militaristic, you know, kind of style, he will the door for other abuses. So, you have, you know, people like, you know, doing you would not be getting involved in, you know, your bad news, hard drugs and you know, essentially, you know, destroying his own promising life, but also helping again destroy the movement. So, I just think that it is really important to be mindful that that, you know, if you kind of create a culture of fear, it has got a high potential backlash. 51:36 SM: Yeah. And, and again, that could be the reasons why you hear the Gingrich’s and the Wills. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It was like, Richie Havens, when I interviewed him, last week said that his parents raised him to be one of the good people. And that was a very important thing, and he made similar comments that you are making about the fact you know, that make sure that what you do is for the right reasons and so forth. What do you have the last one here is the Vietnam Veterans against the war? Your thoughts on them? 52:09 PL: Hugely important. I mean, usually, I mean, the reason the right hate is John Kerry is because he was involved in that group. I mean, so, you know, what they were, you know, it was the testaments to the death. And nobody had greater credibility. I mean, if you talk about turning points against the war, when significant numbers of veteran turned against for that was when the war had to and, you know, that was when they could not continue it. So, you know, I think that it was tremendously important organization, you know, made a huge impact. And, you know, people in the end, and that is why I always get angry at the stuff about the myth about spitting on soldiers. I mean, it probably happened a couple of times, but by and large, people in the antiwar movement were pretty, I mean, they kind of reach out to the bat, because they knew that if they, you know, they did their compassion. They knew that they were caught in the middle, but also, they knew that most people at least the anti-war movement that you know, if they did speak out, it was a very powerful testament. 53:04 SM: But what did you see when you saw that helicopter flying off the roof at the embassy in in on April 30, 1975. That the war was finally over. 53:15 PL: Well, I think it was anti-climactic. It was like the word gone and kind of wound down but had not quite. And then okay, it was over. I mean, I think it was just finally released that it really is over. Because I think that was mostly- 53:27 SM: When all the things happened in Cambodia with the Kamer Rouge. Did you ever have any second thoughts? 53:32 PL: No, because I mean, basically, not at all. I mean, you know, because Cambodia was a, I mean, it was a stable country. I mean, they call it what it was, they did not call I think they call it like the Paris of Southeast Asia. I mean, it was it was a stable country that we went in, and completely destabilized, destroyed the existing structures created this void that Khmer Rouge entered in and accrue. Of course, they were horrible. You know, but to blame the answer. I mean, you know, the blame the antiwar moves perfect Khmer Rouge is just has no relation to reality. I mean, you know, we were not for Nixon, he would not have happened. You know, and yes, you know, there is probably a handful of people who initially, you know, like, you know, they are not trusting their point then. But I think pretty quickly, you will realize, you know, how awful they were. But again, the number of causation on you know, the causes that Nixon expanded the word of Cambodia and destroyed that country. 54:31 SM: Richie Havens said something last week when I interviewed him, he said that Woodstock served a very important purpose is first off, he said it got us involved in a lot of different types of music, but-but they could not hide us anymore. And he was talking about 1959 was because a lot of the musicians that came out in New York City at that 1959 period, Joan Baez, Bob Dylan, Richie Havens, and the list goes on and on there, Peter Paul and Mary, they were kind of being hidden by society. And then they exploded in the (19)60s. 55:07 PL: Well, it certainly is true is that there is a lot of, you know, there are a lot and havens is currently one of them. There are a lot of musicians for bearing witness. And I mean, they kind of had a how to put it. I mean, they were voicing, they were voicing the common concern. And that powerful then that amplifies it. But I mean, I think when everyone does that, it is really powerful. I mean, I think that there was I mean, I remember riding on an airplane next to Jack Cassidy from just an airplane. 55:35 SM: Oh, yeah. 55:36 PL: And I was talking with him. And he said, you know, we wanted to play blues and all of a sudden, we were like, asked to lead the revolution, you know what to do? There, there are false expectations placed on or impossible expectations placed on some of the musicians. But-but I also think that, you know, in that sense, I would agree with Havens that, you know, when some when-when you hear a lot of people you are powerful music that talks about the real issues of our time, it has an impact. And you know, and last, I mean, it was not just the phone, you know, I mean, the, you know, it was it was a whole spectrum of people who are speaking out through their music and that was influential. 56:15 SM: He also said it would be he felt that that are not generally we had to create our own voice because we were the last generation that do not speak until you are spoken to generation, and he was pretty emphatic about that. 56:31 PL: Well, I mean, I think that there was there was a loosening up, you know, and that, you know, and, and it is this sort of nostalgia for the old Lord or kind of, you know, be silent and-and-and-and-and accommodate that. You know, I think that that is what they want to go back to. 56:50 SM: Right after you came to West Chester University back in the (19)90s. We did two programs, two major programs, where we brought in boomers and generation Xers, we had it in the theater. We had one in the fall and one in the spring to talk about the issues. The final conclusion, two conclusions came out of that conference is that and regarding the generation Xers thoughts about the boomers, the generation that preceded them, number one, they were tired of hearing about the times, and all the nostalgia that the boomer generation kept talking about. And then the other group said, he was, I wish we could have lived then during a time when there were so many issues and causes. I just wish we had issues like that. 57:33 PL: Well, I think both of those are still running. I mean, so, you know, especially now, he later, you know, the idea of I mean, like, I mean, I remember when I was growing up, and like I was sick and tired of like these World War II vets, like, oh, we were you know, we were so wonderful. And I mean, yeah, it was like, yes, you did a really important thing. I am going to certainly acknowledge you are courage and all the rest of it, but on some level, I was higher. You know, I was tired of grandpa's stories. On a certain level, and even, you know, even though important things were done, and, you know, so I think that there is the, you know, the idea that the be all and end all on the eternal reference damned for any protest or for anybody comes afterwards because you can never meet it because it is sort of an unrealistic standard. The flipside is the as you said, the romanticization of like, well, if I live there, I do not so I am not so yeah. 58:27 SM: Yeah, and finally, the conclusion is here that of those two major programs because we brought in TV personalities to actually moderate in some of our faculty were boomers actually got upset with the students. But another coupl- some of the qualities the boomers have a- the boomers always have to have a cause to be happy. Some of the students said the boomers are arrogant, boomers think they are better than other generations because they speak up more and challenge the status quo. Boomers are quick to judge people's weaknesses rather than their strengths, so that these are like some of the things that came out of those- 59:06 PL: Yeah, but you know, I think he is on the media stereotype. There has been- I mean, again, having I mean, you will, you know, quick was quick to judge me. And I think, you know, if you are, if a country is going in, you know, wrong war, you want to make a judgment about that, you know, if you have a debate on a political issue, you want to make a judgement, what is wrong and make a judgement? You know, I do not see anything with that. I mean, it is, you know, if you say they bill, you know, they are condemning us for not living up to well, I do not know, certainly, there was a feeling that that did, where people who bought the media line, were dismissing subsequent generations far more than sure then that was wrong. So, I did hear I did hear that I mean, I, when I was talking when I was doing generation, the crossword that I am doing a book on student values and people would say did they have any values. And, you know, that was that was born of misinformation that was born of reading these condescending Ed report that was important back to talking with people. And reciprocally. The, you know, the students saying, yeah, they all betrayed their values. They all sold out, the generation X people think, you know, the boomer generation, they all sold out, they betrayed their values. Well, that was garbage too. But again, based on the same kind of media stereotype. 1:00:27 SM: Well, your book, I am almost done here. I got two more questions. Generation yeah, generation the crossroads is one heck of a book and in there you list some of the qualities that about the generation Xers which again, are the- a lot of the kids and I know you can generalize this he could, but he must have some experiences what-what kind of parents do you think the boomers have been? When some of the things that you listen to your book, the qualities that most of the generation had- was is a sense of individualism, a mistrust of social movements an isolation from the urgent, big things that are happening in the world at the time, maybe some historical ignorance. And then you look at some of the other qualities that they are more interested in the smaller picture, when they are in the state of the world, their whole differences in how they parent their interest in the body, which is more important than certainly the (19)60s generation and work seems to be more important, you know, in the generation Xers, all these things, what do you I guess what I am getting at is what had the boomers passed on to their kids. 1:01:43 PL: But see, again I you know, this is where, I mean when I look at, you know, it depends on who you are talking about, right? If I look at so when I was interviewing students, and I said, you know, I looked at these students who are really just, you know, greedy, you know, called greedy or detached or just whatever, because they did not have parents who are social activists, none of them did. You know, and if I looked at the people who were involved, not all but a disproportionate chunk, often did have to parent do I mean, I think that they are these firms have to actually finally get engaged, keep taking these stands, and then they pass it on. And you know, wherever the whatever the, you know the lines of okay, this year at that year, wherever they fall, you know, they are passing something on have a tradition of engagement, and the people pass on the tradition of disengagement. They do that, too. So, you know, it just seems to me that, um, you know, that is just really wrong to say, you know, here is this generation passed on somewhat dubious values, because the answer is which part of the generation did that. 1:02:55 SM: Good point. My last question, Paul, and this is the last one. It is about the university. What did the university, the college learn about from the (19)60s? We know about the Free Speech Movement? We knew about the activism that was happening on college campuses, like- 1:03:11 PL: Like how does the university? 1:03:12 SM: Yeah, and-and it seems to me today, and we know the students are involved in massive amounts of volunteers and probably 95 percent. So, you cannot say they do not care. However, my sense is that universities today still have not learned from the (19)60s because they were afraid of rising activism, which to me is a little bit different than volunteerism, it was 24/7 mentalities as opposed to two hours a week and the universities learn anything from the past, or are they doomed to repeat the mistakes they made back then? 1:03:47 PL: Well, I mean, I think, again, it depends on who you are talking about. But I certainly I think that there is certainly people who are trying to get their students engaged in a [inaudible] the people, you know, and then there is also you know, once you do sort of feel like that okay, why do not they just shut up and let us run this run the university or the college? You know, I mean, and I have seen both attitudes, obviously, I think one produces a better play a better, I will say a better educational experience. You know, even if there is contention, an argument and all the rest of it, I think ultimately, it is a better educational experience. You know, so, I mean, that is the stream that I am much more supportive of. 1:04:28 SM: Right, well Paul, thank you very much. Sure. I will, you will certainly see the transcript. I have got a lot of I am doing all my interviews by May 15. And then the transcripts and all and so I will be in touch with you down the road. Okay, great. And you keep carrying on Paul. 1:04:46 PL: All right. Say hi to Mark Rudd. 1:04:47 SM: Oh, I will, okay, bye-bye. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 1 Microcassette Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paul Loeb Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Loeb, Paul Rogat, 1952- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors; Journalists; Political activists--United States; Loeb, Paul Rogat, 1952--Interviews Description An account of the resource Paul Loeb, a native of Berkeley, California, is an author, journalist, and political activist. Loeb has published five books and has done interviews for TV and radio including CNN, NBC, and PBS. He has written for many well-known journals and newspapers including the Washington Post, the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, The Economist and many more. Loeb graduated from Stanford University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-01-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.82 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 64:52