87 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4c54695be78ab5fb32d99c63bbf558e8.jpg 131935975681cd347fa3dda11d120320 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0e7b3a1bda6408cdfded135aa9745c59.MP3 8434e6e3165b392644d054c51a448908 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 8/7/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bobby Muller Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:10:12 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords The 1960s; Marines; Vietnam; Anti-War; VVAW; Vietnam Veterans Against the War; VA; Affirmative Action; Treatment of veterans; Climate change. Biographical Text Bobby Muller was born and raised in Great Neck, Long Island. He attended Hofstra University for Business Administration. He then enlisted in the U.S. Marine Corps and his commission began the same day he received his bachelor's degree. He quickly rose to become Combat Lieutenant leading a Marine infantry platoon. While leading an assault in Vietnam in 1969, he was shot and paralyzed from the waist down. After returning from Vietnam, he became a peace activist and a strong advocate for veterans' rights. A few years later, he received his law degree from Hofstra University and founded Vietnam Veterans of America in 1978 and the Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation in 1980 to fight for fair treatment of war veterans. He co-founded the Nobel Peace Prize-winning International Campaign to Ban Landmines as well as the Nuclear Threat Reduction Campaign and Campaign for Criminal Justice Reform. Then, in 2004, he founded Alliance for Security. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Bobby Muller Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So Date of interview: 8 July 2019 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 SM: Alright, here we go. First question I want to ask you is um, when you think of the 1960s and early 1970s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? And please use words or adjectives as to why you picked your thoughts. 0:24 BM: Hmm. Well, the (19)60s and early (19)70s were a major cultural and political upheaval. We had been in this extraordinarily unique status, following World War Two, as the world's leading military and economic power, and had felt tremendously self-confident, good about ourselves, and had a lot of things going on around the world. Under our control direction, I think if I recall properly, in 1964 76 percent, of the public trusted, our political leaders, and political institutions to do the right thing in all, or almost all of the time well, with the civil rights movement, creating the first really true significant two-sided protest joined shortly by the protest against the Vietnam War, was a very different experience for America. And certainly, the older generation, the establishment itself was terrified by the upheaval, and the rejection of what was considered the values of the time by a younger generation that wanted nothing to do with it. I think the civil rights movement and the Vietnam War, both serve to wake up a lot of people in what had been a complacent society, in the fact that there are real problems here. And change is going to have to take place. The establishment put together an extraordinary effort to [inaudible] wipe out the activity itself as well as the memory of what happened during that period of major social political upheaval. So, that is what I think of- 3:14 SM: One of the things I am very curious, Bobby, about your awakening. Could you talk a little bit about your upbringing where you grew up, and, um of course, went to college, and then those years leading up to your becoming a Marine. 3:31 BM: Look, I was a jock. When I was in high school, the only thing that mattered was sports. So, when I graduated high school, I went to State University of Portland, upstate New York, was a Teacher's College as a Phys-Ed major. After a couple of years, I realized that did not have a very profitable future. So, I switched Hofstra University, on Long Island and a business agenda. I had basically no political awareness of what was really going on. Other than having felt good, that at least the rhetoric of particularly the Kennedy years, which I was in college at the time, talked about freedom, equality, just things that were right. So, I continued in my own little world. The only problem was that when I was getting ready to graduate in (19)67, there was the inevitability of a draft. And there was no question that that upon completion college, I was going to get drafted. Well, I did not want to wind up under Leadership, to some imbecile. So, I figured I would take initiative and enlist, and have not been kind of a macho kid. And with the reputation of the Marines being, you know, tougher than the rest, leadership, etc. I consider what the hell I will join the Marines. And I tell people all the time, that I think the most significant movie that I saw, coming out of the whole Vietnam era was Stanley Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket. And I refer to the first half, which was an extraordinarily accurate depiction of Marine Corps basic training. And I can vouch that it is an incredibly effective propaganda mechanism, transformational mechanism, that takes a bunch of people who might be misfits. Or not particularly motivated and transforms them into very different people. It was a very effective process of indoctrination and training. So, whereas I joined the Marines fairly nonchalant, just to avoid being drafted. By the end of my Marine Corps training. I was convinced that we were fighting the righteous fight in Vietnam. We had to repel communists. And I was very eager to go. It was as simple as that. 6:56 SM: Bobby, uh I, when you were shot in Vietnam, and injured. I have asked this to a couple other Vietnam veterans at the moment they were injured, and several of them are in wheelchairs, when you were injured, what went through your mind? Besides I want to serve maybe I want to survive, and I want to live, do you, do you re- 7:18 BM: I cannot adequately convey the certainty that I felt that I was going to die. I do not know how long I was conscious. But I remember I was on my back. And from when I grabbed my stomach, and I did not feel anything. I knew that it was a serious injury. And my first thought was that my girlfriend was going to be really pissed. Because she had been opposed to the war and certainly opposed to my going into the Marine Corps. That lasted around two seconds, because then I realized that I was dying. And as I said, I cannot adequately describe how powerful the feeling was of having a life slip away. And the absolute certainty that I was going to die. And my last thoughts were, I cannot believe it, I am going to die on this shit piece of ground and fucking believe me [inaudible]. Lights out. What I can tell you is that I absolutely Experienced dying. Wow. I had a series of miraculous events, such as having med-evac choppers in route before I got shot, having virtually instant medical evacuation. And with my luck on that particular afternoon, the hospital ship, the USS repose was the furthest north that it would go and was in the process of turning around to go back south. But I got med-evac back, to the hospital ship, which was an extraordinary provider of trauma and emergency care. And they had written in my medical records that had I arrived one minute later, I would be certainly die. Wow. the bullet went through both lungs. So, both lungs collapse, as well as severing the spinal cord um. At the T five level, which is mid chest, and they did a remarkable job apparently. I woke up absolutely amazed that I woke up, I was stunned that I was still here. And I was on what they call a strike referring in intensive care. And I do not remember how many tubes I had sticking out of me. Something like nine, I chest tubes on both sides. You know, I had tracheotomy done a whole lot of stuff. Um. But I made it and we all intellectually know that we are going to die. But we do not actually emotionally connect to that reality. Well, having emotionally connected to dying, by experiencing dying- I will tell you that there is absolutely no regrets whatsoever, in being a paraplegic and simply overwhelmed, um. And thrilled that I got dealt back into the game that I was convinced I had left. Now I got shot a little over eight months. But I had gone out in the field, seven other marine lieutenants. And I found out that all seven had been med-evac. Before me, 11:47: SM: Oh, my goodness, wow. 11:49 BM: And I remember in training, they told us that over 85 percent of junior officers, such as myself, okay. [incoherent muttering] So yes, it was a major hit. But I have seen a lot of people with much lesser injuries die. And the fact that I made it was remarkable. I think it is hard to tell time because the lights never went out in intensive care. Somebody was always screaming, particularly, you know, the amputees in the burn cases when they were changing dressings, etc. But I think something like two days later, the doctor came over to me, and [inaudible] I said, “What are you thanking me for?” He said, “Because we are pretty confident that you are going to make it now.” And you boosted the morale of the staff around here. 12:45 SM: Wow. 12:45 BM: So, [chuckles] that was that- 12:48 SM: Well, Bob that was a tremendous explanation, and-an- One of the things I would like to talk about is when did you know you were against this war? And uh We have talked about this before, but I want to have an I want to hear your voice talk about it again. And that is when you came back to American and were in the hospital. And some of the things that were happening in that hospital you were very upset with? And just if you could talk about that, and what were your act- 13:15 BM: I do not I do not remember having one political conversation while I was in Vietnam. It did not matter. Because when you are in the military, it is not something where you could decide, hey, I do not like what I am doing. And say I quit there is no quitting. So, you are in it. And the reason people fight is basically because of the people that they are with. And it was us versus them definitionally and no real discussion. However, there were a lot of incidents in my tour, that made no sense to me, in terms of how member I was operating, basically, northern night corps. How People when we were operating around villages generally looked upon us with either fear, or, or hatred on their faces. The villagers supported the enemy, which was obvious, and sometimes, you know, we would get ambushed from people inside the villages, etc. And after having spent, uh I think a little over four months, five months with the Marines, I got transferred to Mack- and worked with South Vietnamese military and I was as an assistant advisor on a battalion level and my experience with South Vietnamese was an absolute reluctance on their part to fight. Contrast it with the stunning tenacity, of basically what we were fighting North Vietnamese Regulars. 15:16 SM: Right. 15:16 BM: And, you know, having to sleep every night with a dying commander, and on guard because a percentage of the troops on our side were in fact uh, on the other side. And when we were out in places that were remote, you know, in the morning x numbers of troops would be missing well, there is only one thing you are- you are going to be doing when you are out there, and you leave your unit, which is join the other side, go home. So, but at the time, would not have helped to really question all of that or get into a discussion about it or go home. So [grunt] um, at the time would not have helped to really question all of that or get into a discussion about it, because like it or not, next day, you are going to go out on a mission, you are going to go out, and do what you got to do. So why make it more difficult? But definitely question, what it is that you had to do, when inevitably you are going to be doing it the next day. When you come back, and you know, on the hospital ship, they sent the psychiatrist and presumably to talk about the fact that be paralyzed. But the first question I asked him was, how come I can sit down amongst a bunch of dead bodies just a couple of days prior, chow down, and not the effects. And he explained that your mind has its own defense mechanisms. And when you are under extreme circumstances, those defense mechanisms come into play, to allow you to endure the situation. He said, I assure you get back to states. And if you should see somebody, get hurt, hit by far, whatever, you will be just as sensitive as everybody else because those mechanisms will have gone. And I think that is important, understanding that I have because those defense mechanisms that allow you to endure what goes on at war also enable you to do things that you would otherwise never do. [grunt] So it kind of works both ways. And I learned that I transformed as an individual, in the course of my tour, I call it going down a dark path, and you change. But when you come back to society, which is normalized, and you think about the things you did, with normal sensitivities, you are going to feel awful and guilty about it. Although at the time, it was not such a big deal, because it was simply part of the game. And I think that is why a lot of Vietnam vets have an awful lot of guilt about what they did in the time when they were in what I would call an altered state of mind. 18:49 SM: Right. 18:49 BM: And reflect upon it, you know, with normal sensitivity. 18:55 SM: Wh-When you came back, Bobby, you eventually became part of that organization, Vietnam Veterans Against the War in Vietnam. And of-of course, we all know the speech that John Kerry gave before Senator Fulbright's Foreign Relations Committee, where he talked about the atrocities and the killings and all the terrible things that are going on there. And um just when, whe- you when you came home to America, were in the hospital, what-. An-And you were evolving there you were seeing things you did not like when you were serving there, but you are not going to do anything while you are over there. But when you came home, was there a specific point that said, I got it this war is this is a bad war. And uh and then when John Kerry spoke, was he telling the truth on all the things he was saying? 19:45 BM: Of course, he was when I came back. Um. That is when you can start to reflect on what you have gone through in a way that you do not allow yourself to do when you are involved day to day. The hospital that I was in was the Veterans Hospital in Bronx. And my ward was one of three wards that handled spinal cord injury patients. And back in uh, (19)70, or (19)71, I am not quite sure. Um (19)70 um. Life magazine came in and focus on my ward. And made it a cover story uh. For Life Magazine, which at the time was a major publication [grunt in agreement]. And the cover of the magazine was split. Top half was colored photograph of troops being evacuated from Cambodia when we have gone into Cambodia. And the bottom half was black and white picture of a quadriplegic, sitting in the shower uh, shower chair uh, pretty dismal [grunt] the article portrayed some pretty bad conditions. Uh. The place was basically an orphanage at some point in the latter part of the 1800s [grunt in agreement]. So, it was a physically completely depressing building. The ward was overcrowded um, understaffed and conditions were shown to be deplorable in many ways. And I think the article referred to it basically as a medical slump. Not all VA hospitals are the same. But my particular hospital was pretty bad. Um, plus, it was not geared to the kind of care and treatment that I required. Because less than 10 percent of patient care in VA hospitals at that time was for anything to do with a service-related condition. And service related could mean you had an accident on Interstate 95. But if you are on active duty, your injuries are considered service connected. I guess that actually combat related injuries, were certainly less than 5 percent of the care. So, it was overwhelmingly uh more of a geriatric and poor people hospital. And they were there pretty much in the discretion of the VA. So, they shut up. And we, the younger generation guys came back, needing rehabilitative care, while essentially the hospital was a glorified nursing home. So, when Life Magazine did its cover story, it turned out to be the second largest selling issue Life magazine ever put out. And I was the spokesman for the ward and wound up doing a lot of interviews. Get Phil Donahue at the time when he was still out in Ohio. Today show. I got a fair amount of separate spokesman. We had congressional delegations come through. And also, Vietnam um vets against the war stopped by and said, “Look, you know, in addition to talking about what is going on in the hospital, why do not you consider talking about what is going on with the war.” And I had thought like so many that I had just been dealt a bad hand. And my experience was just an unfortunate one. By talking to other Vietnam vets. I realized that it was not just me. But most of them had the same kind of experience. And we started reeling with that process known as rap groups. Now to share our experience and gain an understanding, a much better understanding of the larger reality of what was taking place in Vietnam and asking the questions that we never asked on the front end might. Okay, so why are we here? Well, what has happened. And it does not take very long to realize that what was being said publicly, was totally contrary to the realities that we experienced. So, you know, by ending the isolation, by having a communalized process of peer support, sharing turns, understanding a whole lot more, we became a uh much more radicalized and angry. And yes, what DVA W did, in opposing the war was unprecedented. what Terry said, absolutely. Represented, our shared feelings. I myself, as you know, was thrown out of Republican national convention. In (19)72, for young Nixon during his acceptance speech, and I cannot tell you how devastating it was for all of us that in (19)72, not only did this guy who we have been consistently condemning as a war criminal, got reelected. But he got reelected with the largest mandate of any president in US history up until that time. So that was very difficult. 26:37 SM: When you are talking about the Vietnam Veterans Against the War in Vietnam, um what, what did you think of what of the antiwar movement that was going on in America when you were over there? And secondly, when you came back, uh I would like your thoughts on this, too. Bobby. Uh. Some of the activists that I have talked to who were antiwar, were never anti soldier. They were antigovernment and anti-leaders who sent the military to Vietnam. And so, a lot of the protesters that were against the war in Vietnam, were not only trying to save American boys from being killed over there, but also saving millions of Vietnamese citizens, which is another topic of discussion. And some of the people th-that I have also talked to have said that when they go to the Vietnam Memorial, yes, they they-it is in remembrance of those who died in Vietnam, who served our country with distinction. But it is also they cannot help but also reflect on that one or 2 million Vietnamese citizens that also died in that war that we never talk about. Uh Just your thoughts on that. The antiwar moveme- 27:50 BM: Bu-But at that time, I do not think there was a whole lot of awareness of how damaging the war was to Indochina. And it was a slow shift, to begin to view the troops separately from the war, that was not the way things were necessarily back at the time. The veterans that did speak out, were very welcomed by the entire movement, because we added a very critical element uh of credibility, been there and reporting firsthand. But there was still animosity towards many of the returning troops. And as time went on, you know, to just go back and think about I think it was in 1971, when CBS did a uh nationwide documentary called Jolly Couple. They had sent a crew that spent time with an Army infantry company that knew it was being filmed. And on camera, guys was smoking dope. Uh, at one point, the company commander told some, troops, to go up and put a cordon around an armed personnel carrier that has been damaged and on camera. They said, “Hell no. You can buy another one of them, you are not going to buy another one of me.” So, you saw the military um basically, revolt, and essentially quit. But we also had emerging Mai Lai. And stories of, you know, indiscriminate killing atrocities. Drug use and the fact that we will not consider all that stable when we came back. I remember that at one point, they asked for five sides out of my company to work with the CAP program Combined Action Platoon, where you have guys actually going into the villages and living with the Vietnamese. And they said, we needed at least five guys with a high school diploma. And company clerk went through the records. And he said, we have got one guy out of 155 with a high school diploma. So, you know, we had the average age, as you know, of the combat soldier, was 19. But that includes, you know, the NCOs and others. Basically, all the guys in you know my unit in my, my platoon were 18, except for the sargent and the one guy. So, you had a very vulnerable group put into an insane situation, having to deal with killing people making decisions about when to fire or when not to fire, having significant civilian casualties, having the people next to you die and be severely wounded, etc. So, Vietnam vets were shocked when they came back. The guy who was considered the most decorated hero of Vietnam, was a guy by the name of Peter Crochevsky. And Peter was a gunship uh pilot, uh Cobra, I believe, and basically knocked out of the sky, I think nine times. So, he has more air medals and all of that than anybody else. When he came back, he went to school full time to convert his pilot's license, the fixed wings. So, he could get into commercial aviation and work full time. And nobody would hire him. And that was a great example of how many events no add a ladder state after the atrocities had been reported on the uh lack of discipline, rebellion within the ranks, smoking dope, getting in cases hooked on heroin, which was cheap and easy. So, for the vets. It took quite a while. After years later, I had started Vietnam veterans America, the Washington Post, the Op Ed. Ed-Editor, was a guy by the name of Phil Jalen. And I got introduced to him, who was sympathetic. He did a big op ed piece on me back then, even when photographs saying Vietnam veteran advocate arrives. And for a period of time, he said they grant an unprecedented number of editorials and op ed pieces in support of what we were advocating, the Vietnam vets. And he said the response was absolutely uh unprecedented [grunt]. He said, normally, if we do a piece and we criticize an agency, you know, they call and they want a chance to rebut what we said. He said the response to this unprecedented campaign of advocacy was total silence. He said it was just remarkable. So, he said, we have got to take up, I think the level of discussion uh to the world so, and he set up a meeting that was co-sponsored by the Council on Foreign Relations, headed up at the time by Winston Lord who had been Kissinger’s deputy, and McGeorge Bundy, uh who is president of the Ford Foundation. So, we had the Ford Foundation and the Council on Foreign Relations, co-sponsor, a meeting where they invited 25 or so of the top leadership in America from media to corporate, etc. and gave me a real opportunity to make a pitch. And uh this was 1979 and McGeorge Bundy at the end of my presentation said. “Bobby, what you are doing is laudable, it is very deserving. But you are simply not going to get support.” He said “I will help you, because I have some discretionary authority as head of the Ford Foundation. But you have to understand that Vietnam is a negative, recollection for people-people feel embarrassed, people feel ashamed, people feel guilty. And they are just going to want us to get about the whole thing and move on. Unfortunately, that means that you also are going to be left behind, and you are not going to get the support that you deserve and what you are advocating for.” He did not say that to be a son of a bitch, he said that just lay out a reality [right]. And what he said was true. Because, you know, having done five media appearances in one year on Good Morning America, you know, having been written up in New York Times and editorial is the leading advocate to Vietnam vets, you know, I got to meet a lot of the political leadership and business leaders that had been involved in the war. And basically, none of them were responsive. Nobody wanted to help us. And the efforts to get a Vietnam veteran group going brash six times where I said, that is it, we cannot go on. And when the last one happened, that is it. That is, it. That particular day, um I got a call from Bruce Springsteen's manager. Uh John Landau, said, you know, Bruce has been following the Vietnam vets, he cares about it a lot. And you want to help them to get together. So, literally, the next night, he was doing a concert. In Jersey, I was up in New York, so I went. To the concert, talked to him for maybe 20 minutes and five minutes, laid out my spiel, he said, okay, let me think about it. Next day, he calls me, he said, “Can you come to Los Angeles next week?” I said, “Sure, what is up?” he said, “I want to do a benefit concert for the Vietnam Vets. And you got to be there.” And the fact that he gave us that concert, where he had gotten guys out of veteran’s hospitals, etc. Alongside the stage, um he built up platforms where guys, uh in wheelchairs directed from in all sorts of medical devices were there. And for the first time, he uh went out before the concert, and said, why he was doing it. That, you know, we have been neglected, we had to be recognized. We deserve proper treatment, invited me to come on stage, I gave a little pitch. And then he gave what many considered is perhaps the best concert he has ever given. Uh, the fact that Springsteen put us in the public light the way he did, changed, everything. Everything. We went from being totally ignored, to all sudden, you know, being kind of popular. And within 30 days, I think we had a concert by Pat Benatar who was big at the time, Charlie Daniels gave us a tremendous infusion of uh money, Bruce, that night gives 100,000. But we were okay. after that. And without him, there would not be a coherent veteran’s organization of movement. And that is really what made the difference. 39:04 SM: You know, Bobby- [another thing]. Oh, go ahead, continue. 39:08 BM: The other thing was when the hostages returned from Iran, they were given a ticker tape parade in New York. And that was the first time that our phones uh ran off the hook. People were out at contrast between the reception that the returning hostages got, and the non-reception the Vietnam Veterans got, and both the House and the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee told me that for the first time, they got bags of mail from the public saying “help the Vietnam veterans.” You know, at that point uh things change because while Vietnam would not be discussed at social events, etc. At the end of the hostage crisis, you know, people have talked about well, okay, uh we obviously have some adversaries in the world. What are the values that we are going to actually stand behind and, and protect? And those questions which then became the topic of social discourse, had to use the last time we went to war, which was Vietnam as a reference point. So, for the first time opened up the discussion of, okay, what are we going to do in the world? What are going to be the values that we are going to stand behind? And what do we are not going to- I gave a speech. I think it was on [inaudible] with uh mayor [inaudible] City Hall. And part of what I said, in a totally impromptu speech. Made it is the quarter of the day in New York times the next day, as well as being part of a front-page story. I said, You people ran a number on us, I was addressing the general public from the steps of City Hall said you people ran a number on us your field, you are hanging up and your uneasiness made it impossible for us to talk about. If we brought it up, you tend to walk away from the conversation. And the fact that they made that the quarter of the day, I think, indicates that it was recognized as a fair representation of where things stood at the time. 42:02 SM: You know, but that at very same time, Bobby, I was starting my career in higher education. And I worked at a high university, and I learned very early on that affirmative action. Vietnam veterans are part of it. Because when we, you know, people, obviously, Vietnam veterans were not being hired, and the universities themselves added that particular group, um the ones that are being discriminated against, so- 42:30 BM: So that came later on, you know, you got to remember that Johnson uh wanted to recode the GI Bill, because the Vietnam vets and when they started with the GI Bill, they started at uh I think it was $100 a month, a stipend, whereas the Korean War veterans had been getting $110. So, you know, there really was not support. There is what I have consistently referred to as an iron triangle in Washington. And that triangle consisted of the agency itself, the Veterans Administration, the congressional committees in House and Senate, and Veterans Affairs, and the traditional established veterans’ group, Veterans of Foreign Wars, American Legion, etc. and, they will all populated by World War Two veterans. And they really did not see us the way they saw their war or themselves. They saw us as part of a counterculture generation that rejected the war that we went to fight. And they were not sympathetic at all. Plus, there was a budgetary conflict, the claim money that needed to be allocated basically, for the older veterans in a way of pensions, not compensation, which is what you get for service interest group but pensions for all the people that fell on hard times. And an expansion of, you know, VA medical care, designed primarily for the older, more geriatric patients, and our needs for you know, a decent GI Bill, foreign assistance programs, you know, counseling, assistance, etc. You know, lost out in the lobbying process, to a shared sense amongst that Iron Triangle of the World War Two generation types that took care of their needs before they took care of our needs- 44:53 SM: Do-do you see that what you have just been talking about for the last 10 to 15 minutes has a direct tie to the building of the Wall in Washington DC in 1982? Because if [stuttering] you see that video that when the wall was finally opened in 82, and that some of the times when people make comments on that first November 11, is that now, Vietnam veterans are accepted, and-and it seemed to change everything. what you have revealed about-about-about the rock musicians, is what that is, that needs to be known more Bobby, that needs to be known a lot more. Yeah, it would be it would be, it would be a great column for you to write a newspaper about Bruce Springsteen. And-an- 45:49 BM: this has been written about so many times. Um, that, you know, as I have said, had Bruce not come and put us in the public light, and got, as a result, other musicians that wanted to chip in and help us out the way that they did, um we never would have made it period. When the Vietnam Memorial was designed or proposed, I was against it. I said, you know, it is very easy to give money to memorialize the dead, it is known, harder to get money for political programs that need to be enacted that a costly to help the vets. As turned out, the wall became um a very powerful event. Because when it was opening up, I was in DC, you can see, you know, guys coming in, individually, in many cases from places. And it was the first kind of mass gathering of Vietnam vets. And that was a turning point in giving collective expression to the expense. So, the wall was cathartic. But it also served as a particular point to galvanize, for the first-time veterans from across the country, who recognize that there was a lot of solidarity, and you know our respective experiences, and facilitated um the coming out of the Vietnam vets. Just like when I described it to take great for the returning hostages from Iran. A lot of vets said hey- hey, what about us? Even my mother called and said, what is going on? We have one of those former captains here, where she was in Texas. And they gave him a Cadillac, a lifetime pass to the ball games. What did anybody ever do for you? So, like I said, the anger at the contracts. Uh generated an out of public demand to help the Vietnam vets and also brought a lot of Vietnam vets out to say, “Hey, what the fuck?” So? Yeah. I- Th-Those events, I think they are turning hostages with ticker tape parade. What Bruce had done in bringing money and putting this favorably in the public spotlight, in generating support, along with the wall being galvanizing event. All served kind of changed the game a bit. 49:09 SM: Yeah, you know, Bobby, when you look at your life, and the organizations you have been involved in or helped create, every one of them is really helping others. In- Obviously, you went to serve your nation in Vietnam, you came back home, and you saw the experiences you have out and became, went against the war. But there is something within you as a person where you have taken on such major issues, and you have devoted your life to that. Could you just briefly explain from the Vietnam Veterans against the War to uh you know, the Vietnam Veterans of America to your landmine, the Nobel Prize, I mean, everything you are involved in is about giving back and helping others how did you get into this mold? 49:55 BM: I think overwhelming the majority of the Vietnam Vets came back and said, well, that was fucked, tried to put it behind them and get on with their lives. I could not do that. I was stuck in a hospital for a year. So, it was not something that I could just walk away from. And I saw it many times, I said, I have not gotten injured as severely as I did, I might very well have been like the others and said, you know, let us get on with life. And I think a lot of people, while the vets may have been reluctant, to some extent, to speak out, out of respect for the guys that died, who paid a severe price, and they did not want to deny them of any meaning or purpose to what they went through. However, nobody can speak for the dead. But I was in a position to speak for the living that had been severely damaged. So, I had kind of like, more of a unique opportunity. Because here I was, you know a Marine who shot, assaulting an enemy position on a hill um maximum credibility, and, you know, with the wheelchair, you know, you would always be brought up to the front of any parade, and you would be the one that media would want to talk to. And the more you got into it, the more you realize that, oh, this was not just, you know, an innocent mistake, um. There was a reason why we fought. And you recognize as you went along, that our government lied, our government was criminal, that people like Nixon and Kissinger should be tried as war crimes. And it was no longer you know, 1964, where, you know, 77 percent of the public trusted, you know, our political leadership, we came back, and certainly, myself and a lot of my friends have ever since that day, that war with our own government, we knew that our government was corrupt, lied, and was doing awful things. And once you get the wakeup call of something like Vietnam, where you have to confront, you know, okay. Uh. The questions that you never would have asked on the front end, and many people never asked period, you learn more and more, and then you say, okay, you got to hold this government accountable, you got to be aware of what- it is doing. And one step naturally led to the next step. And certainly, when I became aware of legislative disparity between what prior generation of veterans were provided, compared to what we as Vietnam veterans were afforded, it was an outrage. And, you know, once you start to speak to that believe me, I never intended to have a membership organization, but under the banner of Vietnam veterans, America, you know, veterans in communities around the country, all by themselves, one chaplain selected or not, but there was a membership. [laughs] And, you know, I started the organization in actually the very end of (19)78, and stepped down as president in (19)87. But by that time, had created a very uh substantial and sound, financial basis to the organization, had gotten a congressional charter, validating the VA, as you know, a nationally recognized veterans’ organization that could represent veterans have office space and VA facilities, and so on so forth. And I left to deal no longer with the veterans’ issues, but with the larger concerns of war and peace, and that was what I did through, get on the Veterans America Foundation. And having led the first group, they were four of us to return to Vietnam after the war. which we did in 1981, uh was a transformative trip. Because you got to see Vietnam, in peace instead of war, you got to meet the Vietnamese as a people and not potentially enemy. Their need was extraordinary. Our policy towards Vietnam was completely wrong and worked very hard on trying to get a- um process going between the two governments, which was not taking place at the time, because eventually uh, there is going to have to be an acknowledgement that the world is open to reconciliation. And that helps um a large part of the agenda of getting a vets- veterans America Foundation and um was critically needed. And I think what we did, as a non-government organization not carrying the baggage of diplomatic representatives who have to carry the government's line, we gave the Vietnamese Foreign Minister, [inaudible] the opportunity to do some stuff with us, he said, I cannot go to my government and ask to help the American government, because they are still basically adversarial to us. I can go to our people and say, we want to work with the American people, not the government, because they suffered in the war, like we did. And that process led to situations uh where even though they did not like it, US government had to get involved with Vietnam, because of the challenges that we had represented. For example, the Vietnamese saying, we found more American remains, we would like to turn them over to you, come to Hanoi. And I said, well, would you be willing to work with our government to return the remains, so that they are treated with you know the proper respect that they need to be, and uh the government threatened to bring charges against us. But sending Montgomery, um who had been the chairman was chairman of the Veterans Affairs Committee, had already held hearings on the POW MIA issue. He knew it was a crock of shit. And he said he was very high in the reserves. He said, If the government is going to work with you, I will get you military transport through the reserves and get it done, which forced the government to then contact Vietnam and opened up the communications that led to an increase in programs and so on and so forth. 58:23 SM: Couple things I want to ask you. 58:26 BM: Okay, Steve, we only got a little bit of time left here. Then, I got to go. 58:29 SM: Okay. Can I have three questions? And then that will be it. The first question is, um, Robert McNamara. He was uh obviously a lightning rod during the Vietnam War and the antiwar movement. Yet you became a friend of his in later life, because you went on the stage with him, I think and debated him. How did you evolve and change your opinion? 58:50 BM: Oh-no, we, we did not debate. We were in agreement. 58:55 SM: Oh, okay. 58:56 BM: Particularly after my experience in Vietnam, in Cambodia. And, you know, my first 10-day visit, shortly after the Vietnamese had gone in, show what genocide meant. And I came to understand, I was there for 10 days, then went to this torture center, that when you get to that level of energy, of genocide and conduct, uh nothing is going to stop it. Due to horror of what it was doing. Something external had to come in and stop it. And I was convinced that with the increased technologies that we have, if people of that kind of mentality, connect with the technologies that are available, we are going to basically eliminate life as we know it on the planet, which is exactly what McNamara was sent you know, his experience back from World War Two, Cuban missile crisis. And believe he talked to me a great length about how absolutely pure luck prevented a nuclear war between us and the Soviets over a missile crisis. So, he and I, the odd couple, we were both saying, you know, we have got to fundamentally change how we handle conflict. And we cannot allow the continuance of nuclear weapons. Um, because, inevitably, if we continue to have them, they are going to be used. So that was why he and I got together, because the odd couple was basically saying the same thing. Okay, next question. 1:00:49 SM: This- the next question is the other question I like to ask and that is healing. The Vietnam memorial was built hopefully to heal a nation as Jan scrubs book states. How important has it been in terms of healing the nation itself? And why do you see such tremendous divisions still in America today, that many people say go back to that era of the (19)60s and (19)70s, uh the divisions, the divisions had never changed? 1:01:18 BM: Well, I-I-I-I-I am not that sure that the Vietnam Memorial provided that much for healing process, as it provided a place for people to come together and a little bit more collectively um, come to reflect and consider what had happened? I think with the passage of time, you know, history has, made it is good, that we were absolutely wrong. In what we did, you may have been able to debate in the (19)60s and (19)70s, and maybe at some point into the earlier part of the (19)80s. But at this point, uh the historical judgment is in, and you cannot deny we were wrong period and the conversation. Yeah, there are a few that still think I could have won, but they are, they are just flat wrong. 1:02:21 SM: And my last question, and this is the scene that we always remember, the helicopters off flying off the embassy in-in Saigon in 1975. And, but I reflect back on the Paris Peace talks of 1973. And I, to me, and I do not know how you feel it is the peace talks were a farce, because here they were meeting in Paris, and then when it was all over the peace talks, you know, the war would come to an end. And then we saw what happened North Vietnam just kept coming throughout all of South Vietnam, and then they end up taking over, it is-I- Just your thoughts on see the feelings of when the war ended in 1975. Seeing the helicopters- 1:03:12 BM: I-I-I understand that in uh, uh 1971, you know, Haldeman was the assistant to Nixon, along with Haldeman. Haldeman maintained guard, which he comes. And he talked about, I do not have the page um. But there was also a wonderful column written by Maureen Dowd about it, that Nixon said um, “You wanted to end the Vietnam War.” And Kissinger said, “You cannot do that. If we ended now, the probability that by the (19)72 election, the North will have overwhelmed the South um is not going to be good politically. So, to preserve political viability, you have to carry the war phone.” Now, that is Haldeman's diary. And when you realize that Kissinger continued the war for several years, just to maintain political viability, for Nixon's reelection um, what more needs to be said. The other thing I would say to you is what I said to you when we met one time, you have to read the book Hanoi’s War because it will give you a very different understanding of what was going on-on the Vietnamese side. So, without reading that book, I think you are going to be significantly wrong in your impression to what was going on. And I found amazing that not that many years ago and it came, you know, on this anniversary date of whatever it was the Vietnam you know was so critical of general [inaudible] for Tet Offensive and so on and so forth. But the point of view and fun fact: Hoi Chi Minh had nothing to do with the leadership of Vietnam for a good while before he died. He was maintained his status as a figurehead [inaudible] vehemently opposed the TET offensives. And, you know, when he lost the debate of Lumley to Lees Wanda was in charge [inaudible] actually left the country during the Tet offensive as further demonstration of his complete lack of support. But what happened? So, I think if you want to do some commentary on what was actually going on, understanding that Kissinger prolonged war for years, simply for political viability, and a better understanding on the Vietnamese side, if you read Hanoi’s War it would be important. Okay. All right. One more quick question. 1:06:26 SM: No, I just just-just your final thoughts on um where we are as a nation today, and why we cannot seem to get over the-the divisions that took place in the (19)60s? 1:06:38 BM: Well, the (19)60s um have been wiped out. People do not remember, the whole Vietnam era, certainly not going to need the lessons that it paid for in blood and despair by millions of people, they really still do not know what we actually did. Um, and, you know, you have got other issues, not Vietnam, that are really increasingly and will continue to create substantial social distress and divisions within our country. Uh, because you have got the dismantling of a lot of globalization stuff uh. Because of people you know like Trump, you have climate change, which is already in evidence is having a profound effect um, generating refugees, and if you do any deep reading at all, you are going to realize that this is now unstoppable and will uh absolutely um within the foreseeable future, end civilization as we know it. And if you have not had a chance, I would get on Netflix, and watch a very good eight-episode documentary narrated by David Attenborough called Our Planets. It is on Netflix. And if you have not read the book, The Uninhabitable Earth, you absolutely need to. And you realize that the issues that we are facing, because climate change, loss of biodiversity, artificial intelligence, robotics, cyber capabilities, warfare vulnerabilities, etc. The ability to genetically alter and weaponized a virus, that those are the concerns that need to be recognized uh. etc. So I think the whole Vietnam experience is basically in the history books and forgotten. I do not think, at all, that that is uh what is driving anything in politics today. Other than the fact that after Watergate, that basic confidence that the American public had in its political leadership institutions, plummeted, and has never come back. So, I think as a society, we view our relationship with government um very, very differently. And there are people that can exploit it in different ways, as we are seeing, and it is all going to get worse. And Vietnam is barely a footnote in the process. Steve, I got to go because I have to run someplace and good luck to you with the project- 1:10:05 SM: Thank you very much Bobby and we got to have lunch again. 1:10:09 BM: Okay. 1:10:10 SM: Take care bye. Thank you. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bobby Muller Description An account of the resource <div class="element-text">Bobby Muller was born and raised in Great Neck, Long Island. He attended Hofstra University for Business Administration. He then enlisted in the U.S. Marine Corps and his commission began the same day he received his bachelor's degree. He quickly rose to become Combat Lieutenant leading a Marine infantry platoon. While leading an assault in Vietnam in 1969, he was shot and paralyzed from the waist down. After returning from Vietnam, he became a peace activist and a strong advocate for veterans' rights. A few years later, he received his law degree from Hofstra University and founded Vietnam Veterans of America in 1978 and the Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation in 1980 to fight for fair treatment of war veterans. He co-founded the Nobel Peace Prize-winning International Campaign to Ban Landmines as well as the Nuclear Threat Reduction Campaign and Campaign for Criminal Justice Reform. Then, in 2004, he founded Alliance for Security.</div> https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3fa9ccaff05650595f5a6ef4405de6a6.mp3 0bac55bd06188ab4216bfd301ea0506a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4a7f9769b021acd95ca723d4bd5a04dd.jpeg 2a82ec1b68f363beffaf824cafc7e4f5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Middle Eastern Oral History Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews of Middle Eastern immigrants who settled in the Binghamton area. Since the rise of nationalism and the repression of minorities during the last phase of the Ottoman Empire, the ethnic groups in the Middle East have faced physical pressure and violence, cultural assimilation, and ethnic cleansing in the nation-states they lived in, which made them to leave their homeland behind and settle throughout the United States. This project looks at the details about the impact of diaspora. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview June 30, 2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Joseph Seif Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Atef Hazar Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 65:17 minutes Biographical Text Atef was born and raised in Jdeidet Marjeyoun, a Christian town in South Lebanon. His parents, like many inhabitants of the town, held property in old Palestine before 1948 and were merchants. He was a teacher at the local school and was forced to flee the country due to the Lebanese Civil War.&nbsp;Atef is currently retired with his wife in upstate New York. Keywords Old Palestine, Lebanon, South Lebanon, Israeli Invasion, Education, Merchants, New York Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Atef Hazar https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a867875bb1189b4634f509fc65e550c6.MP3 fa1ba64b028710d1e03807cdcd27af7e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/10c108126a98f8b4f171430d0d9087cb.jpeg 75dc8bf73998ab8dc41aaa6ecaa6cb43 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Middle Eastern Oral History Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews of Middle Eastern immigrants who settled in the Binghamton area. Since the rise of nationalism and the repression of minorities during the last phase of the Ottoman Empire, the ethnic groups in the Middle East have faced physical pressure and violence, cultural assimilation, and ethnic cleansing in the nation-states they lived in, which made them to leave their homeland behind and settle throughout the United States. This project looks at the details about the impact of diaspora. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview July 7, 2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Joseph Seif Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Janet Hazar Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 41:49 minutes Biographical Text Born in Damascus, Syria, Jeanet grew up in a rich and diverse environment. Due to unrest in Syria, her family and she were forced to leave for the U.S. Her family's property was confiscated by the Syrian government and the Damascus International Airport was built on it. Today Jeanet resides in Appalachian, NY with her family. Keywords Syria, Damascus, Hafez Al-Assad, Family, Religion, Syrian Culture, Syrian Food, New York Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Janet Hazar https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b8d4eecae4e8c0714840e5b7e71c556f.MP3 8fc6cb137cbb93008cde48493c0b38a8 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1d92d3cfb98f09f611fcbdab1b619fa0.jpeg be408ffecdceb72dfbe5bb9fc78dd48f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Middle Eastern Oral History Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews of Middle Eastern immigrants who settled in the Binghamton area. Since the rise of nationalism and the repression of minorities during the last phase of the Ottoman Empire, the ethnic groups in the Middle East have faced physical pressure and violence, cultural assimilation, and ethnic cleansing in the nation-states they lived in, which made them to leave their homeland behind and settle throughout the United States. This project looks at the details about the impact of diaspora. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview July 15, 2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Joseph Seif Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jeanine and Jacques Saif Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 63:07 minutes Biographical Text - Jeanine was born and raised in Ghazir, Lebanon. She grew up during the Lebanese Civil War but did not feel its effects until the last few years. She married Jacques and moved to the U.S. to continue her education. She was a teacher in a French school in Saudi Arabia.&nbsp;<br />- Jacques was born in Jdeidet Ghazir, which lies on the outskirts of Ghazir in the Mountains. He enlisted in the Lebanese Forces militia as the war broke out to defend his town from Palestinian insurgents. As the war was wrapping up, he received the opportunity to study at Binghamton University, where he studied computer science. He then received a job in Saudi Arabia and moved there with his family. <br />- Today, both Jacques and Jeanine live in upstate New York with their kids and own a Lebanese restaurant. Keywords Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Binghamton University, Ghazir, Family Business, Family, Lebanese Civil War, 2006 Hizballah/Israeli war Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jeanine and Jacques Saif https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/20cfa60c6efd11c7a78a9e1a611da3a3.MP3 a0cfe9052e56f493a136ee3ccf329266 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0d46497ac51e4e92695f35556907db92.jpeg 2b0123aea39d6e856ff2a67bdcccc8e5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Middle Eastern Oral History Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews of Middle Eastern immigrants who settled in the Binghamton area. Since the rise of nationalism and the repression of minorities during the last phase of the Ottoman Empire, the ethnic groups in the Middle East have faced physical pressure and violence, cultural assimilation, and ethnic cleansing in the nation-states they lived in, which made them to leave their homeland behind and settle throughout the United States. This project looks at the details about the impact of diaspora. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview June 7, 2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur De Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joseph Seif Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 60:53 minutes Biographical Text Joseph was born in Al-Khobar, Saudi Arabia to his parents Jacques and Jeanine. After the 2004 al-Khobar Massacre, his family moved to Lebanon. After the 2006 Hizballah/Israel war, Joseph and his family moved to the U.S. Today Joseph is pursuing a degree in Public Administration at Binghamton University. Keywords Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Lebanese culture, Lebanese Food, Vestal High School, Binghamton University Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joseph Seif https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/706fe5a8d6f154addcc8f0cfc36cc7aa.MP3 e5e86847562f150ad00e4966d0ab9b62 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Middle Eastern Oral History Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews of Middle Eastern immigrants who settled in the Binghamton area. Since the rise of nationalism and the repression of minorities during the last phase of the Ottoman Empire, the ethnic groups in the Middle East have faced physical pressure and violence, cultural assimilation, and ethnic cleansing in the nation-states they lived in, which made them to leave their homeland behind and settle throughout the United States. This project looks at the details about the impact of diaspora. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview June 24, 2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Joseph Seif Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Josephine Haykal Biographical Text Josephine was born in Aintoura, Lebanon. She got married at the age of 15 and has four kids, three boys and one girl. She lived through the Lebanese Civil War, however, towards the end she was able to flee with her family to Boston in the U.S. After a couple months, she moved with her family to Binghamton and started a restaurant business called the Phoenician in the University Plaza in Vestal. Today she is retired and lives in Vestal surrounded by her family and Lebanese community. Language Arabic Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Keywords Aintoura, Lebanon, Japan, Lebanese Civil War, Family, Syria, Marriage, Lebanese Restaurant, Family Business, Boston, Vestal Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 54:32 minutes Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Josephine Haykal https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/598cb143fac6288490ecfacd5b000bc7.jpeg 98565e5e19aaafd1d4f6ec101af44f04 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b8e07008b1bc9668ee3a937d169950fd.mp3 675a300d6f9546c613ab4decd628cfb9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Middle Eastern Oral History Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews of Middle Eastern immigrants who settled in the Binghamton area. Since the rise of nationalism and the repression of minorities during the last phase of the Ottoman Empire, the ethnic groups in the Middle East have faced physical pressure and violence, cultural assimilation, and ethnic cleansing in the nation-states they lived in, which made them to leave their homeland behind and settle throughout the United States. This project looks at the details about the impact of diaspora. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview August 27, 2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Joseph Seif Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rawan Shabbar Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 54:32 minutes Biographical Text Rawan was born in Irbid, Jordan. She lived in Oman throughout her early childhood and moved to Saudi Arabia for school. She continued her education in her hometown in Jordan and received a scholarship to finish her Master's at Binghamton University. Keywords Riyadh, Chicago, Binghamton, Irbid, Jordan, Jordanian Food, Jordanian Culture, Binghamton University Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rawan Shabbar https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ce25ac87ab7465e34e83ec5c69301352.MP3 4473112a544a72a8e57fea58b0faf9da Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Middle Eastern Oral History Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews of Middle Eastern immigrants who settled in the Binghamton area. Since the rise of nationalism and the repression of minorities during the last phase of the Ottoman Empire, the ethnic groups in the Middle East have faced physical pressure and violence, cultural assimilation, and ethnic cleansing in the nation-states they lived in, which made them to leave their homeland behind and settle throughout the United States. This project looks at the details about the impact of diaspora. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview October 15, 2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Joseph Seif Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ruby Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 44:32 minutes Biographical Text Ruby was born in Jordan's Capital city of Amman. She moved a lot throughout Jordan since her father held a high ranking position in the Jordanian military. She came to the U.S. to work on her Ph.D. in computer science and converted from Islam to Christianity Keywords Religion, Amman, Jordan, Binghamton University, Israel/Palestine, Jordanian military, Christianity, Islam Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ruby https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ed9ea73b421e90ccf3474dfdb34128f7.jpg 8271af811647c16d2b6b6b9162071982 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6ec1f20699b862e3a52f4c1fd838b82d.mp3 2f3fe226151b880f63400eeff86c8e8f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 8/7/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rennie Davis, 2 Biographical Text Rennie Davis (1940-2021) was a spiritual lecturer and an activist. Davis was an American anti-Vietnam war protest leader of the 1960s. He was one of the Chicago Seven defendants. He has appeared on several shows including Larry King Live and Barbara Walters and has provided business advice for the Fortune 500 companies. Davis was an alumnus of Oberlin College. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 2:31:02 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Michigan; economics; farm; chicken contests; basketball; police brutality; Vietnam; Chicago Seven; 1968 Democratic National Convention; Martin Luther King Jr. Subject LCSH Chicago Seven Trial, Chicago, Ill., 1969-1970; Political activists--United States; Davis, Rennie--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Rennie Davis Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Lynn Bijou Date of interview: 7 August 2019 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:03 Yeah, I-I got a whole set of questions I am going to ask you. It is going to be about your life and everything. And so, speak right into the- clearly as you can. Thanks, Rennie for doing this, I really appreciate it. I know I interviewed you at Silver Spring a couple of years ago, but I want to do something a little more in depth. Because we, we just touched on a few things then. I would like to first start out, what did your parents do for a living? When, a little background on where you grew up, what your parents did. And talk about your years as a kid through high school, and the kinds of activities you may have been involved in in high school. [silence] Hold on, hold on a second. Hold on a second. RD: 00:59 Okay. SM: 01:00 Okay. Go right ahead. RD: 01:02 So, I was born in Lansing, Michigan, and my father was a professor of economics at Michigan State. [clears throat] And in the, this was 1940. And in 1942, with the war beginning, he moved himself and the family to Washington D.C., it becomes something of a renowned expert in the field of labor productivity. And, how, so there were, you know, lots-lots of-lots of decisions being made by the government, you know, in, in his field. So, he came in as a very, in a fairly prominent position and, and he basically, devolved into becoming the-the, the head of the staff of President Truman's Council of Economic Advisers. -and I, [chuckles] I got really into it, and I, you know, I realized there was a science to it, especially hens that were laying eggs would molt their-their, their-their, their skin with bleach in a particular order. So, you know, the egg would come out of the bed, and the, the bed would bleed first. I mean, by bleach I mean it go from a kind of a yellow color to a whitish color. And then the beak would bleach from the back to the front of the beak at a particular order. And, and then depending on the breed and the type of bird, you-you could predict the, the number of eggs that the that chicken has laid, since it last molted- SM: 02:08 Wow. RD: 02:10 He, then bought a farm in Virginia as kind of a weekend retreat. It was about 70 miles west of Washington, down in the Shenandoah, near the Shenandoah River, you know, kind of between the Shenandoah River and the Appalachian Trail is really beautiful place. And when Eisenhower came in, he was considered, a so-called liberal economist and actually got kind of blackballed, really in government for a while, and could not get- you know lost his job, and, you know, could not get another one. And so he-he decided that what he would do is just, move the whole family out to the farm, and-and make a go of it, you know, he himself had been raised at South Hall of Ohio, and, you know, had had kind of, you know, a farming background of sorts, you know. He was a pretty cool guy, really. So, he is, he moved out and he bought the local feed store in the, in the county. And so, suddenly, we, you know, we, we owned the place, that was the hub for all the farmers in the area, I mean, came and got their feet and you know they would come, and talk and tell their stories. I mean, I just loved it, you know, [laughter] I could work so hard and meet these characters. You know, this is rural Virginia. SM: 03:52 Yes. RD: 03:52 And it is, it is you know, Berryville, Virginia is where the feed store was. And the farm was about 12 miles from Barrett Ville. [coughs] I mean, our nearest neighbor was a half mile down the road. So, we were, there is a 500-acre farm, and we, you know, we made a goal but we, you know, we had, we had 6000, boiler chickens- SM: 04:18 Oh my. RD: 04:19 -every 10, 10 weeks, that, you know, were part of the, of the family income and, you know, I managed that and then I went on to so I was in high school, you know, you know the in our graduating class in high school with 50 people. You know, we, there was a little period where in this tiny high school, won the state football champion, you know, year after year after year. SM: 04:50 Wow. RD: 04:50 I mean just- [laughter] just tough little TCS. And so, you know, so I-I basically got recruited by the four H county agents, you know, to join the four H club. You know, I-I-I showcase though, you know, my steer and the competition so forth. But, what drew me in was chicken judging- SM: 05:29 [laughs] Oh my goodness. -its production cycle. And then I discovered that there was also a relationship. I mean, I had a theory about it, I kept testing it, that there was a relationship between the weight of the chicken and, and the, and the number of eggs that were laid. And so, what I would do is, have a scale, and I picked up a chicken and estimate its weight, and then put it on the scale until I could refine myself to-to predict pretty accurately the weight of a chicken. You know, and I mean, I spent an hours [laughs] practicing this thing. [laughs] RD: 06:54 So, when I went out to the, my first contest, you know, I won the Clark County chicken contest, you know, so- SM: 07:03 Wow. RD: 07:04 -I mean, the first time I was ever in a newspaper, I was holding a chicken- SM: 07:10 [laughs] RD: 07:11 -grinning from ear to ear because we just was not counting time, it is a big deal, you know? SM: 07:16 Yeah, yes. [laughter] RD: 07:21 The chicken had just pooped on my pants. SM: 07:23 Oh, no. [laughs] RD: 07:25 I had no idea. So, I had by embarrassment, you know, when the picture came out, there was [crosstalk]. Funny stories like that, you know, so but then I went on to win the state, Virginia state contests. And then I won the east coast, the whole east coast had a contest I went to, and then I went to the-the international contest in Chicago. So, the first time I went to Chicago was to judge chickens. SM: 08:02 Wow. RD: 08:03 And basically, I felt that the judges just did not have my knowledge of chickens. And so, I do not know, I wound up, you know, being ninth or something like that. I mean, I was just humiliated to me, you know- SM: 08:21 [laughs] RD: 08:21 -because I fully expected to win the international contest. And then I blamed the judges that they did not know what they were talking about. [laughs] SM: 08:30 Now, now, in 1968, if you had a break, during the activities, did you go over to that area and see where you had that contest? RD: 08:41 I did not really do that. [laughter] SM: 08:42 No nostalgia? [laughs] RD: 08:43 There was a little too much going on. SM: 08:47 Yeah. [chuckles] RD: 08:50 Like there were people who did, you know, articles on my background, who would discover that this was the first time I came to Chicago and so there was some news about us. You know, back in (19)68. SM: 09:05 [laughs] What was the name? What was the name of your high school? RD: 09:09 Clark County High School. And yeah, it was then, you know, I, I basically, you know, when I was in Washington, I was a B student, but I came to Clark County, I, I was an A student. I had one B, in I did not know it was [inaudible], you know, some typing or something like that, you know- SM: 09:37 [laughs] RD: 09:37 -ninth grade, and I was always upset because I-I got all A's except for that one B. And, and they counted valedictorian was measured based on three years and a semester rather than the full four years. I would have been valedictorian if we could have measured it in 4 years. SM: 10:01 [laughs] RD: 10:01 But anyways, three and a half years, so I was salutatorian. I had, I had good grades, I was the president of the student body and I was also the editor of the school newspaper and I belong to various organizations and I played. I was on the varsity basketball team. SM: 10:24 And were you the guard? RD: 10:27 I was the guard. Yeah, I we had a barn that I put up a basketball hoop. So, I was able to stand on the very outer edge of the of this barn and, and practice a shot there. It would have been, you know, in basketball terms, it was kind of beyond the key. So, it was a long shot, you know. SM: 10:52 Right. RD: 10:53 And I got pretty deadly with that shot. [laughs] Practicing with the bar. SM: 10:59 [laughs] RD: 10:59 So that was my only claim to fame really was I could I could nail it from a great distance. And so, it got me all the you know, so I played first string varsity because of that shot. SM: 11:13 You know, "Pistol Pete" did that Pistol Pete Maravich. He practiced, I think like that. And of course- RD: 11:18 Oh yeah? SM: 11:18 -he became a great shooter. And now and when I think of you again, Rennie, I am going to think of you as "Pistol Rennie."[laughter] Okay, now we were after high school, where did you go to college? RD: 11:34 I went to Oberlin College. And I actually, you know, and I really have no criticism, why bother about this? I think I would probably do the same thing. I won a four-year scholarship, if I would still study animal husbandry at-at VPI over at Virginia State University. So no, my dad wanted me to take the scholarship, you know, obviously, but and, you know, he explained that the president of the Michigan State had graduated in animal husbandry, so it did not limit you in any way, you know. But I do not know, I was just, you know, I did not really know much about overland really, you know, other than I just heard, it was a really fine school. And, you know, turns out that, you know, its graduates, you know, rank the highest in grades, you know, in graduate school. I did not know that at the time. So, when I went to Oberlin, I mean, the first, the first evening, I sat at a table was, there was, you know, 10 people at the table. And I, you know, we started introducing ourselves and, and everybody at the table was a national American dollar, except me. [laughter] And then, the very first grade I got was an English composition, that I got an F. SM: 13:07 Oh, no. RD: 13:09 [laughs] I have never gotten anything, but A's, you know. So, I was just lucky. So the first year, I did not really talk to anybody, I just went, you know, I just studied until two in the morning and I went all out studying, you know, so, but the first year it got me back, you know, in, you know, kind of able to hang in there. SM: 13:31 Right. RD: 13:31 So, I would say I was a B student, but by the sophomore year in Oberlin College. You know, we, Tom Hayden came to Oak alone and, you know, met with a group of us we had started, we had started a political party, in in tents. I was a sophomore. And the idea was to bring political issues into student government, you know, like civil rights. SM: 14:03 Oh, yes. RD: 14:03 And so we were, we were all following what was happening in the south. This was like, the second semester of my sophomore years, this is 1960. So yeah, so basically, with-with a first election, I mean, I was the, you know, the sort of the helpless center of this political party, either what title it was, I guess I was the president of the party or something, I do not know. And so, we-we swept the election, we-we won every seat you know. Suddenly, we-we had real influence in the college, you know, I mean, we-we took on racism in private housing and overload and things like that. And it was, it was really quite remarkable. When Tom came through, you know, he basically you know, he-he and his-his friends were at the University of Michigan and they had done the same thing; they created a political party too, it was the same idea. We had never talked to each other about it, but then they had similar success. But Tom wanted to basically organize something with students, you know, in the, you know, throughout the country and the north, especially- SM: 15:25 Right. RD: 15:25 -which was really turned into SDS: Suits for a Democratic Society. So, once after Tom came through, I would say, I was in the movement, basically full time, you know, I never, [chuckles] I mean, I-I would I-I could study and pass tests, you know, that sort of thing. When I, when I graduated, I went to the University of Illinois, and Labor and Industrial Relations, and it was a fairly good school, a lot of Japanese students. And I, you know, I never really, I mean, you know, -II would just study. I-I actually had the highest-grade point average in the history of the university, but it was- SM: 16:09 Wow. RD: 16:09 -because I could cram at the end, you know. [laughter] Classes, or did very well. So, anyway, you know, the, you know but the good grades in the University of Illinois gave me quite remarkable scholarship opportunities. And I went into, we all gathered at the University of Michigan, in graduate school, that by we, I mean, kind of the leadership of SDS: Todd Gitlin, Paul Potter, you know, myself, Rob Berlage. I mean, pretty much everybody went to the University of Michigan. And that is where we kind of really formulated, you know, what we were going to try to do for the decades. SM: 17:01 Is that, is that picture that I se- that is on the web is Tom is on the left, and you are on the right, and there is a whole group of other students in the middle. I know Todd Gatlin to one of them. RD: 17:13 Right, yeah. SM: 17:13 And I believe, and I believe Richard Flax is there too. RD: 17:17 Yeah. SM: 17:18 And his eventual wife, I forget. And I think she was there. And so, and there are a lot of other ones. Is that the picture the group you are talking about? RD: 17:28 Well, a lot of them were at the University of Michigan, but that basically was a, SDS conference. Picture that. Yeah, that was in that time. You know, I am not a quite a, you know, want to say poor here on but I am not sure about that. I am not quite I know Clark, Kissinger took that picture. I have seen it too. But anyway, that was that was an SDS conference meeting. That is really what that picture was. SM: 18:05 Did Tom talk when he when you met him about meeting President Kennedy and a group of students in the library steps at Michigan when he was coming through? They were running for president. RD: 18:19 I-I heard about that. But I did not come from Tom. I am not sure who has shared that with me. I knew about it, but I did not. I do not think Tom and I ever talked about it. SM: 18:32 Now, did you form an SDS chapter then at Overland? RD: 18:38 Not really. I mean, we had the progressive CSL, prudent progressive student league was the name of our campus political party and, and we were affiliated loosely with what SDS people were doing. But I once-once the-the movement, so called movement started, for me, I-I was not really doing much locally at all. I mean, at the University of Illinois, where was a liberal luncheon that was pulled together by Robert Ebert. No, who was a kind of a film critic. I mean, became a film critic. SM: 19:28 Oh, Roger Ebert. Yes-yes. RD: 19:30 Yeah. And, we had a similar situation where there was really blatant racism with off-off campus housing. So, the university basically lists these houses were available. Your brand is for students, so they have the support of the university, but they would not allow black people to stay there. And so, we had a, so I, I proposed that we just take the whole university out on strike to stop it, you know. And so, what happened was, I went in and met with the president of the University of Illinois, just myself, and to help told them that, you know, we were going to basically shut the university down over this issue. And it was it, we never had to do anything. They-they were just terrified of us, but you know, but then they changed their policy. SM: 20:37 What year was this? What year? RD: 20:40 Oh, my goodness, let us see. So, I graduated from Oberlin of (19)62. So, I guess I would be in (19)63, when that happened. SM: 20:51 Okay. Now all, there was a lot of things going on, the end of the Vietnam wars, has not become a front-page item by that time. But were you aware of that- RD: 21:05 Yeah, yeah. Vietnam really became more front page when U.S. troops, you know, actually went into Vietnam. I mean, there was covert activities, and we were aware of it, but it was 1965, when troops actually were sent to Vietnam. That, I mean, it was 16. Four, I was in, we wanted to go into communities, and do community organizing the way this southern snick students were working in the south. SM: 21:44 Yes, mhm. RD: 21:44 So, I went, I became the director of a thing called the, "Economic Research and Action Project." And-and basically, we started in the summer of 1964. We started 10 community projects, Tom went to Newark, and I moved into a white Appalachian Community and called uptown- SM: 22:12 Wow. RD: 22:12 -Chicago. And there was another white community in Cleveland that we went into. And so, they were the idea was, they were poor communities, and we were going to support them to try to, you know, give them more of a voice, you know, tenants that were, you know, where their buildings were run down, you know, would-would form tenant unions and welfare mothers with for welfare unions. It was, you know, I was there for three years, basically. SM: 22:49 Wow. RD: 22:50 And uptown as an organizer, I mean the first night that we were there, the city knew we were there. I mean, we had, I think the first night they were 40 students who were going to join the project. And we were all in one apartment building, you know, sleeping on the floor- SM: 23:14 [laughs] RD: 23:14 -the police, the police you know, just basically broke down the door and came in and, you know, had guns drawn and put guns at our head- SM: 23:26 Oh my god. RD: 23:27 -and were screaming at us, you know, we-we, I mean we had no idea, we were, everybody was asleep, you know. And so, we were carted off and taken to jail. We had no idea why or what the thing was, you know, and so, we, you know, we-we got out on bail the next morning. And-and the, the Chicago Tribune. You know, the front page was about we were having a beer drug party, and it was broken up by police and we were arrested, you know. So that, that gave me my first reality check on where I was, [laughs] now in Chicago. Yes. SM: 24:09 My gosh. RD: 24:09 The way that, Mayor Daley was going to let anybody come in and mess with his city. And, so yeah, we had one other raid you know later where they came in and just broke through the plate glass window, the office and literally, be chickpea chairs. And you know, I mean, it was just, it was just amazing. Really, you know. No one was arrested or heard and that was at the middle of a night. And, we had young people and teenagers who marks on the police against police brutality, which was a very severe issue for, for that, you know age group. SM: 24:53 Yes. RD: 24:57 There was tension. I mean, there were, I mean, you know, it was one of those times where, you know, one false move and, you know, you could be dead, you know, I mean, there was police lined, both sides of the street, it was quite, quite on the edge of tension, you know, and risks. SM: 25:14 This is quite- RD: 25:15 You know, so there was a lot of a lot of bravery. And you know, it was not organizing that easy. And especially in a white community but, you know, we-we did you know, I mean, welfare mothers, had sit-ins and got, you know, got a voice at the welfare office where grievances could be heard in a more orderly way. I mean, there were there were changes that took place it was, it was rather remarkable. And it was quite a, quite an experience of my life, [chuckles] you know three years and up [inaudible] SM: 25:46 Wow. RD: 25:47 But then, the SDS organized the first march, or the first rally against the war in, in Washington, D.C., I did not even go but I mean, I was obviously involved with it. And basically, with that, I realized that the movement was moving on, you know, we, it was time to basically come out of the community and return to a national perspective. SM: 26:18 Oh yes. RD: 26:19 It was really with that demonstration in Washington, it was about 25,000 people, that I, you know, started to, you know, I am leaving Chicago and starting to return to [inaudible]. I guess the first thing that happened was the, you know, we-we were making contact with the Vietnamese to learn more about Vietnam, and we were invited to a conference by, organized by the Vietnamese basically, to basically they were, said they wanted to share their, their history and their point of view about the war with a, with a cross section of the American anti-war movement. So, 42, Americans went to Bratislava, Czechoslovakia. And, you know, Martin Luther King was, was going to go was on that delegation, but he had schedule conflict at the last minute and, and did not go, but we, you know, we went and, you know, I mean, we look like the ragtag group, you know, we would have the hardship of crossing the ocean and plane, you know. [chuckles] The Vietnamese were all there waiting, you know, dressed in elegant, formal clothes. SM: 27:41 [laughs] RD: 27:42 You know, then there was this beautiful woman who just, you know, was clearly kind of a centerpiece for their group, which we had no idea who she was, but she turned out to be mad. And when she been, and-and she had basically come from, she was at that point, you know, on the Central Committee of the, of the National Liberation Front, was in the south herself. And basically, I would take six months to, of travel to basically come to this conference, Madam Being. And, and so and then it turned out that it was, it was the most prestigious conference of, of Vietnamese, I mean, legislators and high-level people, both in the north and the south. It was the highest-level delegation of Vietnamese since the Geneva Convention in 1954 that ended the war with the French. SM: 28:40 Wow. RD: 28:41 It was very impressive, you know, we had no idea that anything like that would happen. And so, so it was very informative and eye opening. And so, they, you know, and they was not too scripted. I mean, they were, struggled some with their English, but-but generally, it was, you know, it was, you know, they were very sincere people, and they, you know, they were moving and touching and, you know [chuckles] so that at the, at the very end of the conference, seven of us were selected by them to come to Hanoi if we wanted to, and that included Tom Hayden and myself. SM: 29:22 Wow. RD: 29:23 And so, we made one of the very first trips into Hanoi. And then we were, you know, Hanoi was absolutely off limits from the military point of view, the mill-the Pentagon's position was that it was only bombing steel and concrete, military targets in Vietnam. But every single day, we were in Hanoi, we had to go into bomb shelters, and-and, and bombs would go off in the city of Hanoi- SM: 29:56 Wow. RD: 29:57 -and we-we would then get in a car afterwards and drive out and see a whole city block gone. SM: 30:04 Wow. RD: 30:04 And so, I mean, Hanoi was definitely being bombed. And-and you know, then we would go into villages where, you know, obviously people were being bombed, especially by cluster bomb units, which really is anti-personnel weapons. So, by this point, I-I was pretty steamed up, you know, and so I-I came back on the day, what-what happened was that organizations like SDS, were doing things against the war, but there was no coalition, kind of similar to today. There is no real permanent coalition that makes the teaching planning possible. It just or you know, just sort of spontaneously, if something's going on in the media, and social media picks up on it, you know, you can get a pretty good turnout on something but you cannot hold it together afterwards. So, we, got a cup from 1965 with the SDS, anti-war gathering, we-we organized a coalition. And by 1967, we had 150 national organizations in a coalition, called the "National Mobilization Committee Against the War in Vietnam." And, we put on our first demonstration in October of 1967. And that was the-the day that I returned from Hanoi. So, I was obviously a key speaker. My talk was carried live on television, my dad, at this point, my dad had, been hired by the, by the government, he was back in good graces, I guess, to become the Secretary of Labor. In a kind of a, I do not know whether to call it a shadow government. It was it was the government that if there was nuclear war, could function, somehow. And so, you know, he was the Secretary of Labor in that government, and they basically what they did was they just made constant plans of every scenario. And his task was how labor could be utilized under different kinds of conditions. And they, there was a very hard rock on the mountain where our farm was. At the top of the mountain, they converted that into a government installation, called Mount Weather. And, and basically, my dad worked at Mountain Weather. And so, when I was going into, when I was in Bratislava, and when invited to Hanoi, I, we were on a party line. You know, our phone number was one, seven, four, J, one, two, that was our phone number at the farm. So, it meant that, if you heard one long ring and two short rings, that meant we should pick up. That was our- one long ring two short rings was our-our heart, our signal, you know, the whole neighborhood would pick up too, probably 14 people on the party line. SM: 33:32 [laughs] RD: 33:34 So, so I knew it was not a good idea to call my dad from Bratislava to tell him I am staying in Hanoi. SM: 33:41 [laughs] RD: 33:42 So, I just figured I would tell him when I got back. But, he was when I was, in Laos getting ready to board an ICC plane into Hanoi, the, I mean, they had one of the most advanced security operations in the U.S. government at Mount Weather. So, a group of people came to my father's office and said, "Are you aware that your son is about to go into Hanoi?" He-he was in shock, you know, there was no way that was possible. And so, when then he sees me on television, you know, coming back from Hanoi, and so there was a little period where my dad and I were at odds. [laughs] We were very close family, and it did not last long. [inaudible] SM: 34:31 [laughs] Right. Rennie, what was the year when the first conference happened that when the 40 some people went to Hanoi, what year was that? Unnamed speaker: 34:42 That was, October 1967. SM: 34:46 And then you went a second time, correct? RD: 34:50 Yeah. And then I went again in (19)69 because the Vietnamese decided to do a peace gesture, by releasing prisoners of war. And they had an historic, policy because they have been at war for so long, I mean, with different countries and everything. And essentially, the concept was that when they were at war, they were not at, their war with a government of that country, but they were not at war with the people. And so, they recognize, the people of the country as legitimate spokesmen, not the government, and who, and whatever group emerges as most broadly representing the peace sentiment of the population, then comes the official representative of-of, to them of who they will recognize. And so, our coalition was, you know, obviously, the largest coalition, anti-war coalition, in the United States. And I at this point, I was the coordinator of that coalition. SM: 36:01 Wow. RD: 36:01 And so, and it done Chicago. So, I, to them, I was the official representative of the American people. So, they would only release the prisoners to me, personally, if I came. SM: 36:15 Wow. RD: 36:16 So that was quite heavy. [laughs] You know it was like, oh okay. We went before the judge, obviously, you know, we were in, we were about to go into a trial of this point. And-and, I mean, I was just astounded. The State Department sent out a high-level person from Washington to represent me before the judge that this was in the national interest that I go. And, and Judge Hoffman, our judge turned it down, that pointing out that the U.S. and Vietnam, North Vietnam did not have an extradition treaty, so I could go and never come back. And so, he-he denied my right to go to Hanoi pick up P.O.W [prisoners of war]. SM: 37:01 And that is- RD: 37:02 And so, they-they, I mean, they would just appeal it, you know, in 45 minutes, it was reversed on appeal. But it was still quite a quite a statement about what was about to happen with the trial, you know, I-then I went to Hanoi and pick up the P.O.W.'s and we had about a two-week, trip. And, so I wanted to go to the, the Panhandle region because between the (19)90s and the (19)70 parallel, this is still in North Vietnam. I knew that I mean, I have heard anyway, that more bombs were dropped in this tiny little section of the world then were dropped in all a WWII and Korea combined. And I just could not imagine what that place must be like and no one has seen it, and no westerner had gone into the Panhandle. And so, you know, I pleaded with the Vietnamese let me make a trip to the Panhandle. They were, it was very difficult because that was you know, was not open bombing at that time, but it was still dangerous. And, but they-they agreed to do it and so off we went into the Panhandle and you know, I came to a city a city like being V-I-N-H at about 100,000 people and it-it really you know, in in pictures of WWII- dressed in the Hamburg- SM: 38:46 Oh yes. RD: 38:46 -I mean, you know, kind of collapse buildings, but you know, you still see maybe, a bit of a wall sticking up you know, there was, there was a sense that there was a city there. But in Being, there was no -I mean it was more likely the surface of the Moon, I mean, it was just it was literally just crater, upon crater, upon crater. There was no structures, nothing, nothing was left and yet everywhere you looked it looked like people were just, going on about their life. And-and, and-and nobody I mean, like they missed the war or something. I mean, it was just bizarre. And so, I went into an underground tunnel. I mean, really deep into the Earth, and sat in chair. We, our delegation sat in chairs, and they put on a-a Vietnamese cultural performance for us in the, in the Panhandle. That was basically, I mean it really beautiful man. They were dressed in traditional Vietnamese costumes and everything. And, the songs were essentially about how, you know, Vietnam was I mean, it was just celebrating Vietnam and that peace would come and that they would endure, you know, just an inspiring song for people that are in the midst of, you know, hell on wheels, to-to feel that they would survive. And-and it would appear that, you know, most of them actually really did, but even in the midst of that kind of bombardment. It was truly spectacular- SM: 40:23 Wow. RD: 40:23 -was one of them, the [inaudible]. I mean, I was, I mean, even today, I am just amazed that, that actually existed, you know, but it was really impressive to see it. SM: 40:35 During all these times, after you left Oberlin and the graduate school, and getting involved with SDS and getting in and having all these experiences and going to Vietnam and getting involved with Tom and other major activists, did you ever think I am that chicken farmer kid back in- RD: 40:57 [laughs] SM: 40:58 -back in Virginia, and look where I am now? Never expect-. You know, it is like, it is life has amazing directions we all go in. But this is an amazing story when you think about it. RD: 41:10 Yeah, you know, I-I do not know if I dwelled that way. But I-I was aware of myself, you know. I mean, in though, in high school, my idea of a student movement was the four H club. So, it was quite a transition to go from high school, and this little rural community where I mean, I-I was, I-I was truly a farmer. I mean, you know, I mean, I was the one that did the chores [inaudible], you know. Milk cows and have sheep and-and tended to the animals before go on the hike, before going to classes. And then I would, and school was 12 miles away. And then I would come home and do the chores in the evening. So, I mean, it was a, it was work. And you know, it was a different world. But, yeah, so just an all-American boy, who, you know, turned into a revolution, or I guess. SM: 42:09 Who were some of the other people that came on that first delegation? RD: 42:14 Oh, let us see Vivian Rothstein, Carol, shoot. I am going to- yeah, I-I had to look up everybody's name, I would, mess it up. I think, it is actually in the, in my book. I think I list all- SM: 42:33 Okay. RD: 42:34 -the people who have read it, if you want to look it up. SM: 42:36 Was Daniel Berrigan with the group? RD: 42:39 No, he was not. SM: 42:41 I know, he went he went on a trip to Vietnam as well. RD: 42:44 Yeah. Both of those trips, you know, were organized by our, our team of people. Dave Dellinger, Tom was involved, you know, I was involved in, you know, once we made that that first 1967 trip and you know, we became the conduits for, for other delegations, to-to go, including Jane Fonda when she went. SM: 43:13 Right. RD: 43:14 Uh, yeah. SM: 43:17 Were you going on to college campuses and speaking during this time period as well? RD: 43:23 Yeah. So, yeah, yes, I was, you know, I-I did a fair amount of speaking during the SDA-SDS days. And then, and then in the coalition, I became the coordinator of the anti-war coalition after the Pentagon demonstration in October 1967. And, I actually learned about, you know, so the plan was to go to Chicago. And, I was convinced that we could bring a half million people to Chicago, and I prepared for a half million people, actually learn about the Democratic Party's decision to have their convention in Chicago. So, the Democrats, you know, Lyndon Johnson was the president. He was the one, you know, commanding the-the orchestration of the war in Vietnam. So, the responsibility really, at that stage was with the Democratic Party, and we were in a bomb shelter in Hanoi. And it was, you know, it was, there were not lights in there so it was completely dark and so the Vietnamese were trying to, I do not know I would not say entertain us but you know, have something to do while we waited for the bombing raid to end, and you could hear bombs go off I mean, in the bomb shelter and feel the vibration and the ground. But they, you know, they had flashlights. And so, they had a wire service, AP wire service. And they were just reading the news from the U.S. to basically, I do not know, you know, keep us preoccupied again. And then they read that the Democratic Party had decided to, to go to Chicago. And then everybody got all excited, said "Oh, you are from Chicago- SM: 45:32 [laughs] RD: 45:32 -oh, the Democrats are going to yours." And I did not really say anything at that time. But inside myself, I realized that was going to be in Boston at this event. I was from Chicago, and I, you know, and I was the coordinator of the coalition, so here we go. So yeah, so I kind of knew, I was starting to prepare myself in the life where what was going to happen Chicago, and I, I really felt that at that point, there was no opposition to-to Lyndon Johnson. And it does not, you know, this would be for McCarthy or any, any anti-war candidate. So, we just thought that there would be a rank and file walk out of Democrat to join our demonstration in Chicago. And so, I-I, you know, really, that I was preparing for a half million people, then basically the mayor of Chicago, you know, announced that he was not going to grant permits. The, Ramsey Clark was, you know, my, my dad knew Ramsey Clark, who was the attorney general under Lyndon Johnson. And so, he helped facilitate, communication between me and-and, and Ramsey Clark's office, I-I basically want to know if the, if the federal government supported Mayor Daley's position to not grant permits. And they clearly did not, they knew that was, I mean, to have riots in Chicago at their convention was the last thing in the world they wanted. So, they sent out Roy Wilkins, who was really, oh, you know, right hand, man, you know, a very high-level executive in the Justice Department representing Ramsey Clark, to meet with me. And we are both little skeptical about each other, you know, we, but we spent time together and I-I saw that he was a very cool guy, I liked him, actually. And I trusted him. And he, you know, he came to feel the same way about me. You know, he has had interviews since then, about how, you know, he really was won over by who, who I was and what I was trying to do. And so, he went to Mayor Daley on his own to basically make the case that, that he had to grant permits. And just so, soon as he mentioned my name, Daley, just I mean, his whole face turned beet red. [laughs] He went, he was just fuming, you know, he was so, you know, he knew me from before when I was a community organizer, you know, so I, you know, I do not know if I was the representative when it came. But he, you know, he really realized that that is why he shared this with me later that they were, they were just not, you know, Mayor Daley was not going to grab permits, that was just the way it was. Even then we did not know how bad it would be. But yeah, we had a real decision to make whether or not to call it off. Because, you know, go, you know, I knew enough about Chicago to know that, to go and have a demonstration without permits, was-was could be lethal. I mean, you know, people could lose their life. I have you know, I had no idea that it would be, as extreme as it turned out to be but, you know, I realized that, you know, we would have to now prepare for I mean, the-the main organizational focus for me in Chicago was marshals because I wanted the ability to have communication with whoever did come in the streets, at night, you know, and so we needed thousands of marshals with a particular type, of I mean, a really true organization, the ability you know, just to, for me to say something and reach every single person on the street running through the crowds or anything, I wanted to have that ability. And then the other thing was, medics. Including medical doctors as well as health practitioners, who are steeped in steer gas and, bandages and, you know, just I mean in in case anybody got injured. And so, we, I do not know what the numbers were, but probably over a thousand medics- SM: 50:19 Wow. RD: 50:19 -and way over a thousand marshals were involved. I mean, to give you an idea when, at the very last minute, that mayor, did grant a permit for Grant Park to basically have the, you know, that permits were granted kind of thing. So, I decided to take it so that people who, you know, adults, so to speak, could safely come, you know, and so, we had, you know, pretty good turnout at Grant Par. This was, yeah, I do not know, you know, we were, you know, it was a daytime thing. And, you know, it was beautiful a day and suddenly, a young person, a teenager, went to the flagpole and lowered the flag to half-mast. For him, it was like showing a sign of international distress. But the police just came in and to make, to arrest him, you know, and they just clubbed people as they came in and, and they rested him and then they pulled back down. And so, I mean, I am trying to give an example of our marshals are, you know, I had a marshal line go up where people locked arms, they face the police away from the crowd, but we formed the human stent around our own group, which were I mean, they were, they were throwing things and screaming and you know, just beside themselves, and, and that marshal line went up, like, boom, boom, boom, yeah, it was, it was like a military precision. [laughs] That-that completely calmed our own group down. I mean, we took total control of that situation. And then I was on a bullhorn, and basically said, you know, we, we have our legal permit, and if you would, you know, kindly pull back, you know, we can continue our rally here. And, and this-this the sight of me on a bullhorn with that kind of, you know, does the superintendent or the assistant superintendent of Police, order the police to charge again, and it was just phenomenal, really, I mean, I had a bodyguard, who was a jujitsu master, who had his leg broken in that assault- SM: 52:50 Oh my gosh. RD: 52:50 I was hit on the head. And, you know, I-I, it was, I-I was conscious, and kind of trying to crawl along the ground. But you know, I was just being hit on the back. SM: 53:03 Wow. RD: 53:03 And I-I really thought that I was going to - this was going to be it for me, you know, I might not make this, you know, there was a little chain linked fence, in the park that actually seemed to save my life. I-I was able to come to that chain linked fence, and just for two seconds, get under that fence and stand up and get into the crowd. Where I was in, you know, escorted away from the violence. And, you know, into a place, now I passed out and [laughs] came back. And-and so, then then I was taken to the hospital, because I mean, I-I wound up getting 30 stitches. And this is one of the most amazing things ever. I mean, yeah, we were obviously, you know, in the, I mean, that Chicago was just riveted on what was happening. And so, I am, I am sort of, you know, the police were just hysterical about wanting to arrest me, you know, I mean, I have been beaten to a pulp, and, and but I had not been arrested. So that was not good. So, they, they decided that I must be at the hospital. So, they decided to do a room by room search, of every room in the hospital to arrest me. And, I mean, to this day, I still find this amazing. I, there was a group of, of staff, people, nurses and people that worked at the hospital, but they I mean, these were career employees, who you know, would have lost their job and who knows what else to know if they had been, they had me on a little cart and covered me with a sheet and basically just, you know, hid me and moved me away from the police until like, I got to an exit, and then they you know, and then I got up. I mean, I-I had a pressure bandage around me that made me look like, a WWII poster child or something, you know, it is like - but you know, but I got out, I got out of the hospital because of the staff, and, you know, got to a friend's house that night. And you know, then I watched the night of the nomination, was just, you know, very bloody in front of Conrad Hilton. SM: 55:23 Yes. RD: 55:23 I watched like everybody else on television. SM: 55:26 Randy, were there two [crosstalk] were there two events happening, the-the event that you organized, and were the Hippies organizing a separate event? RD: 55:36 Well, the Hippies were a part of our coalition. So, but they were prominent, because they were sort of outrageous and funny, and, you know, they made fun of Mayor Daley and so forth. And I-I kind of normally would have wanted to keep that a little more tucked in. But, but given the circumstances, you know, especially with Abby [last name], he brought a sense of levity and humor. I mean, he could take a group of reporters in a, you know, crowded into a room, that, you know, were basically I mean, the city was in a state of preparing for siege, and, and everybody was uptight and tense. And, you know, here was, here was as one of the spokesmen for the event. And so, the press are just, you know, pounding him with questions. You know, they were serious [inaudible]. And he could literally just turn the whole audience into outright laughter. And it was just amazing to see it, you know, he would do this again and again, I found that to be, given the circumstances to be really pretty refreshing and helpful. So, Abby, and I actually, we were, we were close together, we, you know, I, in the beginning, I moved our whole operation in the Linkin Park, which is where the hippies were camping out. And, you know, we, you know, he appreciated my organizational ability, because they did not have that, you know, the marshals and the things that we could do. And, and I appreciate it. It is, it is levity, you know, Allen Ginsberg was there, you know, chanting ohms, and anything that calm people down was good to me, you know. SM: 57:30 How did-how did, you know before the Trump- before the trial started, and all this melee that was going on, how did they pick eight people? RD: 57:40 Well, it was clearly a decision to-to you know, I mean, some-some of them were logical, obviously, myself, they fell on chair. Tom Hayden, you know, and Abby and Jerry too. But, you know, the-the John Freud's and Lee Weiner were not instrumental in the, in the demonstration. I mean, they were there. But, what they were-were they were university professors who are against the war. And it just felt like it was more of a political trial, to warn, university professors hand off the antiwar movement. Bobby Seale, literally. I mean, what I had invited Eldridge Cleaver to speak in Chicago, and at the last minute, he could not come. And Bobby, you know, so they Alvarez made the decision to invite Bobby to replace them. I did not even know that, you know, so Bobby, just a rocket, you know. So, Bobby came and made two speeches, that is all he did. And then left. So, you know, he had nothing to do with Chicago at all, you know. And, and but, you know, he was the chairman and founder of the Black Panther Party, and so he put him in. So, it was more like, you know, what would work from the government point of view to kind of, say, these are the leaders that we want to really go after, and especially with Bobby Seale. You know, it was, you know, tying in all white people's fear of black people, especially, you know, [chuckles] black people like the Black Panther Party, you know, so I, you know, it just felt like it was more of a political decision than anything else from the Justice Department. SM: 59:36 There was a point where they, they had to tie him up and became the Chicago seven. Do you remember the day that happened? RD: 59:46 I do not remember the day. You know, it was pretty far into the trial, although the beginnings of it started right at the beginning. What happened was that, Charles Gary was Bobby Steele's attorney and Charles Gary had a gallbladder crisis and had to go into surgery just before the trial. So, he went before the judge and asked for a continuance. You know, in Chicago, you can get a continuance for a parking ticket, you know, I mean, here though, the-the New York Times has already called, calling the trial before he even starts the most significant political trial in American history. And, and so Gary just, you know, wants a continuance of the trial, so he can have his surgery and come back. So, the judge turns, turns down the defense request, is the judge actually turned out every single motion of the defense over five and a half months trial, now even requests to go for a bathroom break - anything that defense did was denied by the judge. So, so Bobby, basically came in and, you know, did not have a lawyer and decided himself that he would defend himself. And so, and the judge insists that he could not do that, that Bill Kunstler, who is our lawyer, at with Bobby was picked up in California, and-and, and escorted across the country, which took six days of travel. And it was like he was just kidnapped, and no one knew where he was. And so, when he appeared in Cook County Jail, you know, everyone was relieved, but everybody wants to know, he was okay. And so, Bill Cussler was the only lawyer available. So, he-he, he signed in to Bobby to basically go and just to visit him to make sure he was, you know, okay, you know. And so, the judge used that to say that he had a lawyer Bill Kunstler, who was a lawyer record. And Bill Kunstler, you know, indicated the whole story and that he was not his lawyer, and that he only did that for one purpose only, which was to make sure he had not been brutalized on his trip across the country by police. So anyway, that is set up the contest. So, when somebody would mention Bobby's name, as you know, on the on the witness, you know, someone would be-be a witness to in the trial called by the governments and mentioned Bobby's name, Bobby would then stand up to cross examine the witness [laughs], you know. And the judge would just freak out- SM: 1:02:44 [laughs] RD: 1:02:44 -and ordered the marshals which were in a line, the whole outer walls of the courtroom, they-they all look like, you know, Chicago, Cleveland, linebackers. SM: 1:02:56 [laughs] RD: 1:02:56 I mean, they were pretty big, burly guys. [chuckles] They would come and they would, you know, push Bobby back into his chair, and it just kept escalating and getting stronger and stronger, you know, and-and, and sometimes, you know, rather than, you know, I mean, we-we would get involved sometimes to try to, you know, form a, a ring around Bobby's chairs, because it was it was physical, and the jury was in the room. I mean, they were might be being hustled out, but they would see, you know, Bobby being, you know, manhandled in the trial, you know. So, and this went on and just kept building and getting stronger. And then one day, Bobby was not, did not come out and we were all waiting. And then suddenly, he comes out and he was being carried by four marshals, it who and they he was chained to, he was tied down to a chair, and he has got a pressure bandage around his mouth. And, you-you know, they bring him out, instead of at the, at the, at the conference table on the defense side, you know, in front of the jury, and basically the judges explaining that this is a necessary step to keep him from talking in the courtroom and bobbing you know, then you know, they call out to his, his, his bandage. And you can you know, he is a little garbled, but you can hear it. And so, the-the days go on like this, where basically Bobby, the band aids around Bobby just gets you know, more and more brutal and tighter and tighter. And-and he is, he is, his arms are so tight to his chair that it-it stops the circulation of blood in his arm. And so, you know, the lawyers are pointing him out, they got cruel and unusual punishment and so they-they loosen the thing and then his arm will fly up, as they loosen the strap, you know, then the marshals think he is attacking somebody and they come in and they start beating him. Right. And I mean, the jury is still in the room or leaving the room. I just, it just becomes unbelievable. And so, this, this image there, it is there is an artist's rendition is what it is because there is no photography allowed in the courtroom at that time. And so, there is this picture of Bobby sealed, chained and gagged as a, as an artist's rendition, you know, goes out to Africa, China, you know, all of Asia, Europe, you know, South America, the United States. I mean, it is a symbol of the world. I mean, here is a black man who is chained and gagged, because he cannot, you know, get a lawyer of his choice in an American courtroom- SM: 1:05:54 Once you- RD: 1:05:55 -become the icon of the whole trial really, you know. SM: 1:05:59 What- RD: 1:06:00 So, it is, it is- yep, go ahead. SM: 1:06:02 Yeah. What did you think of Judge Hoffman, I, and also the other seven, when they were, allowed to speak? Did he get animated? Did he have his problems with others or? You know, did he have problems with all of you? Did he treat any of you with respect? You know, I just-just, you know, just-just thoughts about that. And how long was the trial and the whole thing? It is historic. RD: 1:06:28 Yeah. Well, the judge, you know, at-at first, we were a little shocked by the, the prejudice of the judge. You know, later on, we learned that he had a reputation in Chicago with other attorneys as just being really difficult judge, belligerent, you know, he was, he was recommended to be removed from the, from-from you know, playing the role of judge by, by the lawyers in in Chicago in that district. But somehow, he survived and kept on doing it. And now he would, you know, at lunchtime, he would have two or three martinis and he would come back and slur his words and he was just a little bit you know- SM: 1:07:17 [chuckles] RD: 1:07:17 -but you know, he-he, he just loathes us I mean, then he was, you know, he would miss pronounce people's names, Dilinger with Dilinger not Gallanger. And, you know, Wineglass, you know, who was an attorney, was wild man as, you know he would just, he would come up with these amazing names for everybody. And so, first, we were, you know, I little, I was a little amazed by it. I had seen it because I, you know, going to, I mean, this is, you know, I am about to bring American prisoners of war home. I mean, this is, the ultimate thing to do for the country. And yeah, he turned that down. Because, you know, he hates us so much. You know, I mean, so I had that early preview. But I quickly and everybody else too, you know, saw that, that the judge was actually our greatest asset in the trial, that he was so extreme and so prejudicial, that he actually, this became a part of the color of the whole thing. And, you know, and his, his last name was Hoffman and so then you have Abbie Hoffman, and so- SM: 1:08:40 Yes. RD: 1:08:40 -Abby was the illegitimate son of the judge, you know- SM: 1:08:44 [laughs] RD: 1:08:44 -of his story, but you know, I mean, we just made fun of it. And we, I mean, literally, we would sit around the table, and all kind of stamp our feet at the same time, like we had to go pee really, really bad. You know, and then the, and then Bill [last name], our attorney would stand up, and you know, and do this really humorous thing about, you know, nature calls and everything- SM: 1:09:11 [laughs] RD: 1:09:11 -and, you know, be very respectful and wonder if it might be possible that we could just take five-minute break now, and, and so the offenders could actually relieve themselves, you know. [laughter] And we would know, doing this that absolutely, it would be turned down. SM: 1:09:32 [laughs] Oh my goodness. RD: 1:09:34 That is-you know, we, we would do this just to basically make the point, you know, and so, so Judge Hoffman. I mean, the, this was kind of before reality TV, we became reality TV to especially not only, but certainly for the country, but especially for college students. I mean, I would go on to a college campus because of the time change between Chicago and the East coast, we get out at four, and, what was it? Four or four thirty, I forget, and then, you know, rush to the airport. And, by the time you got to, you know, Boston or New York or something like that, and got in a car and, you know, got to the place, you know, I mean, it was, it was nine o'clock, before you even started. And, you know, as you would, as, as people knew you were in the building, they would start to stamp their feet. And I, just greet [laughs] you know what I mean, a small turnout for me was five thousand people. And when the governor would call out the National Guard, because I was thinking that I would be, you know, that was 50 to 100,000 people, you were in the stadium. I mean, it was just phenomenal. And-and if I, I spoke with Abby, for example, you know, 25,000 people and an auditor, you know- an armory of some kind. SM: 1:11:09 Wow. RD: 1:11:12 It was really phenomenal, really. And, what will always amaze me was the, amount of knowledge that pretty much everybody had about the trial. And while my focus was stories of Vietnam, and what was happening in Vietnam, you know, we-we always started by just talking about what happened today, in the trial and it was like, it was just like reality TV, [laughs] everybody just hung on every single development that was going on. And that people would come to the trial. I mean, they would hitchhike across the country, and then, in get in line, like its eight at night, and then, you know, this is in, in the wintertime in Chicago. SM: 1:12:00 Oh my god. RD: 1:12:01 So, it was super cold, things, sleeping bags, and warm clothes, and they would camp out in the hope that they might actually be able to get into the trial itself. SM: 1:12:12 How many could get in? RD: 1:12:15 Oh, I do not, you know, was not that big? Really? I do not know how to say, I would probably, maybe, I do not know, you know, maybe 60 or 70 people, something like that. Yeah-yeah. SM: 1:12:32 You know, what was interesting also is, now were you all in prison when this happened? You had to come to you or are were you in, away from the courthouse every day that you came? RD: 1:12:46 Yeah, no, we were granted bail, which was amazing. Everybody except Bobby. Bobby was not, Bobby, you know, was way pending trial in Connecticut on murder. You know so you have, you have been charged with murder in Connecticut. And he was going to, Bobby did not get bail. Just to not let that hang. What happened was that there was a, a black panther person in, in, in the Connecticut in the New Haven chapter of the Black Panther Party was killed. And they basically, said that Bobby Seale ordered the murder. And so, Bobby was facing murder charges. And so, after the trial, after Bobby was severed from the trial, but you know, he has chained and gagged, and it got so intense that the judge finally just gave up and basically severed him from the trial with the idea that he would be retried again on his own. And so, Bobby then was sent to Connecticut to face murder charges. Now, Gary had finished his operation, and was back being his lawyer. And Gary and his team put together the evidence that actually was a federal government, undercover agent who had infiltrated the Black Panther Party, who had killed a member of the Black Panther Party- SM: 1:14:27 Wow. RD: 1:14:28 -and that agent went to jail for murder. That Bobby was free and clear, after all, the whole thing you know, it was really phenomenal piece of legal work, really. SM: 1:14:41 Randy, could-could you state exactly what the charges were against the right cause the people that will be hearing your voice will not know, they will know about the trial, but the reasons why you were put on trial and what was the reason, the final verdict of the trial? RD: 1:14:57 Yeah-yeah. So, when Martin Luther King was assassinated, the black community, you know, went up in rage in about 100 cities. And, the Republicans wanted to blame what was going on, on the leaders of the, of the civil rights and the movement in general. And so, they, a, a representative from representative Kramer from Florida, proposed a piece of legislation that made it a crime to use interstate facilities, which meant cross a state line with holding the intention, which was determined by what you said, or what you wrote, to incite a riot. And a riot was defined as assembly of three or more people, one of whom violated or threatened to violate a law. And there was no timeframe. So, in other words, you could come in and make a speech. And then a year later, three people standing on a street corner with clenched fists, you know, could be tied into your speech a year ago, and you could now be facing a felony for having the intention to incite that riot. So I mean, it was just the most egregious legislation probably in the history of America, in, in terms of free speech and civil rights, that you could imagine, on the opening day of our trial, one of the most impressive things was the, the number of extremely conservative constitutional attorneys who showed up on the opening day of the trial in protest of the, of the, of this law. And so, we were charged with violating the statute itself, crossing the state line with the intent to incite a riot. And we were also charged with conspiracy to incite a riot. So that meant that with a two count, we faced a maximum sentence of 10 years. Each one had five years. So, we would [silence] - cut off my thought there. [crosstalk] I would say that we were, that when the jury ended, the jury was basically divided pretty-pretty much along the same lines as the country as a whole, some, some people on the jury thought we were heroes, and some people thought we should be locked up and the key thrown away. So, the jury was deadlocked as a result. And when they said to the judge, they were deadlocked, unable to come to opinion, the jury had been sequestered for five and a half months. So, they had not seen their family. And the judge told them that, the government has spent so much money and so much time in this trial that they really could not deadlock, they have to make a decision. It was one of the items that reversed the decision in the appellate court. But it caused the jurors to believe that if they want to ever see their family, again, they had to come to a, a resolution of some kind. And so, all they knew to do was to compromise. And so, they found us guilty of the subsequent charge and innocent of the conspiracy. And so that meant that we face five years in jail, while the jury deliberated, we were we met with a judge who gave us contempt of court citations. I received an additional two and a half years of contempt of court, almost all of which was generated when I was on the witness stand. [laughs] So the you know, it was pretty hysterical and in the appellate court, most of us were amended, I mean in an appellate court, the, the substantive charge was thrown out. And which meant that the Justice Department could go back and try it again. But they had had enough of it. I mean, they were just beside themselves with, I mean what had happened with- mobilized the whole country. And so, they just decided not to go forward with it, on the, on the contempt of court, Bill Kunstler actually was found in contempt of court and, you know, he had received four years. This is our lawyer [laughter] four years of contempt of court, as the lawyer for the, for this incredible trial. You know he was, one of the most distinguished lawyers in the United States, and you know, he was, he was really, a beautiful lawyer, I would tell you that. So, but you know, technically, you know, he had said some things that were out of order. And so, they, stuck-stuck to what the law says about contempt of court. I was, all of my things were dismissed on the appellate court. So, so what that meant was that Bill had something on his record that, you know, he was cited for contempt of court, but then the judge, basically removed all punishments. He was not, he did not go to jail. He did not have anything else. But it was on his record as having contempt the court. I think he saw it as a badge of honor. You know, you did not really get deterred by it at all. So, nobody really, you know, went to jail from the Chicago. You know, we were first started, the Chicago eight, when Bobby Seale was, was severed from the trial, the media calls and says Chicago seven. That sort of is what stuck historically, the Chicago seven is just the name that media basically gives the defendants were all the Chicago eight, but the country calls us the Chicago seven. SM: 1:21:12 [laughs] Rennie when you think of that year 1968, and not just, going through that trial, being there and having that experience at the convention. Can you describe the year 1968 in all of its totality? We all know about the deaths of Bobby and Martin Luther King, Jr. RD: 1:22:08 Yeah. SM: 1:22:09 And certainly, [crosstalk] and then also, you know, Jean McCarthy kind of disappeared from the scene after Bobby dies. So, just-just your thoughts about, in 1968. And you know, that song that Chicago did, "The Whole World is Watching." RD: 1:22:24 Right. SM: 1:22:25 Every time I hear that and see that, you know, it was about the Chicago convention. Unnamed speaker: 1:22:31 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, it was a, kind of a time like no other, to be honest, maybe the present time that we were going to be seeing, you know, in the very near future here, you know, we will have, you know, will maybe be a return somewhat to the-the enormity of the protests. You know, you had Martin Luther King was assassinated in April of 1968. And, this was the, the convention in Chicago was in August of 1968. So, you can imagine, I mean, the country was just reeling from that assassination. It was just unbelievable, really, I mean it was just, I mean, yeah, you had riots in the black communities and probably other cities. But the, the mood in the country was so, I mean, it was just depressing, really, and overwhelming. It is, it is it is just, it is hard to explain it. I mean, he was just such an icon. And, you know, he was in our coalition, and, and he was a personal friend of mine. I first met him when I was a community organizer in Chicago, and he came to Chicago for an open housing march, and he was speaking at a, at a Baptist church and, in south Chicago and I decided to go and I, I wound up going through the men's room, and I was sitting at the urinal and, and he comes in, Martin Luther King comes in and just goes to the urinal next to me, and-and basically, you know, that is how we met, at the urinal. And it was really, it was really beautiful. I was explaining to him that, that we were, he was bathing and ready to do a march into Cicero, which was this white working class, really bigoted community. And I, told them that I was going to assist in bringing 1000 people from, who had migrated from Kentucky, West Virginia, Alabama, Mississippi, you know [chuckles] white people to his march and he just thought that was the funniest thing he had ever heard. SM: 1:24:58 [laughs] RD: 1:25:00 I do not think so, you know, and he said, so we-we, we had just a bunch of humor there, at the urinals, you know, I could explain it, you know, I would basically tell him to get ready to have your hair blown back- SM: 1:25:13 [laughs] RD: 1:25:13 -you know, his hair was real short. [laughs] Anyway, it was cool. You know, we, we were we were friends and he was in our coalition. He really was. Back at, in Chicago after he had been assassinated, he was the, it is was called the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. They had a project called "The Poor People's Campaign." And on the night of the nomination, which was Wednesday, August 28, 1968. The, he had the poor people's march came down to pass the Conrad Hilton, where many of the delegates were saying, you know, I mean, I am talking about a mule train with-with an asphalt tent and no cards, you know, people riding in the mule train, and, you know, it was, you know, and the and the mules and the people in the car, were-were gassed and clubbed. And, you know, right on, I mean, national television, I mean to give me an idea of more people watched the clubbing of the mule train. And on the night of the nomination of, you know, of Hubert Humphrey, then watch the first man landing on the moon. To give you an idea of the of the television audience that was just riveted to what was going on in Chicago. So then, basically, you know, then the, I guess the good news was that Jean McCarthy, a senator decided to run for president and oppose Lyndon Johnson. And he did not win. The first primary in those days was New Hampshire. He did not win New Hampshire, but he came in around 42 percent of the vote and, that was staggering. I mean, nobody expected that, and he was running strictly as an antiwar candidate. And so suddenly, the, everything changed. I mean, now there was a possibility of a candidate who could win the presidency as an antiwar candidate, and that reality caused Bobby Kennedy decide to enter the race. And so, then Bobby Kennedy suddenly appeared to be like the likely candidate for the Democratic Party. You know, he went to California, you won the California primary. And then that night, when he would had just won the primary, he was assassinated. And so, now you have got two icons in the country, you know, murdered- SM: 1:26:18 Wow. Right. RD: 1:27:43 -you know, for their position. I mean, it was just, I, you know, uh, you know, maybe just saying, that is all a person needs to understand. You could really imagine for yourself how incredibly impactful that was on social consciousness and the public in general. I mean, one of the most moving things of Mashable was, was the procession from New York, to, to Washington, D.C. by train to carry- SM: 1:28:31 Right. RD: 1:28:32 -Bobby Kennedy's coffin. You know, I mean, people just lined, the entire track, you know, from New York to Washington, with signs and it was very moving, it was really touched the country but it was also extremely depressing. So, this was just the background of everything that was building up to Chicago. In, in that summer, the trial itself began in, September of 1969. And then it went for five and a half months into January, exceed nine or 70. And then, and that basically, the Nixon, who basically kind of won on the idea that he was going to, end the war or, you know, look, you know, reduce the troops in the war, I mean, he basically tried to take an antiwar position himself, you know, one of the first things he did was to basically expand the war by invading Cambodia, and that is just set off. Students across the United States to Chicago seven actually call for a nationwide student strike. You know, I do not know the exact numbers but I would say close to 90 percent of every university and college in the United States closed down there. In response to that strike, and you know, you think about it, I mean, students today, it, you know, think about your whole school going out on strike, you know, a political issue, you know, I mean, some, some of the schools would say, "No, well that could not happen here," you know, but go-go check your own records. [crosstalk] The chances are pretty good that the very university or college that you are in, actually did close down on, in the spring of 1970. It was a phenomenal thing, and then, you know, then you had, you know, songs coming out that went right to number one. On the bestselling list, you know, that were basically explaining what was happening, you know, in Chicago and the students strike. I mean, I mean, the whole culture, just totally galvanized around the student movement and the antiwar movement. It was, it was one of the most impactful things ever to happen. I mean, the idea that there could be an antiwar movement in the United States is, was unheard of, but much less the fact. I mean, here, here is a statistic, that is interesting, Gallup Poll comes out and polls the country as to whether they support the war in Vietnam or not, two weeks before the Chicago demonstration. And a majority of the United States population supports the war in Vietnam, two weeks before Chicago. Two weeks after Chicago, the same Gallup Poll does another poll, and a majority of the country now oppose the war in Vietnam- SM: 1:30:23 Right. Wow. RD: 1:31:47 -shifted the entire country, you know, it was really remarkable. SM: 1:31:51 Rennie, how many more years after, say, 1969, after the tribe, were you involved as an activist? I know, I want you to at least mention your major involvement with a moratorium I believe in 1969. And, going into the (19)70s, but at what point did your activism end? And, and, and also make a comment on when you thought that 1960s ended. But- basically- RD: 1:32:21 Okay. SM: 1:32:22 -your, your, your rest of your activism. RD: 1:32:27 So, I would say, one of the things that we discovered which climate change will, is kind of in this category two, people really do not understand, even on college campuses, the, that the consequences of how humanity lives on the planet, are-are going to be sweeping into our own lives in the very near future. We are going to basically, everybody is going to be affected. And yes, you still have people that want to deny the science, but that is about to change. So, one, one of the things that we I mean, it is the same thing with Vietnam. I mean, we-we knew how horrific the war was. But, we did not understand that. I mean, you know, when there is a war, you support your country and a war. And so, we had the, you know, we had the same issue ourselves, we, how do we, how do we bring people along to understand the facts of the war, you know, so we had something called a teach in. And there were lots of them. And it just went on and on and on. And, you know, having been to Vietnam myself, made me a favorite speaker, because I could tell stories about real people and, you know, weapons that were used, that were perhaps develop by the University, where I am speaking and what these weapons did, how they were conceived, the, their antipersonnel nature and things like that. So, the movement, so to speak, culminated in the moratorium where basically just, you know, it was just activities, but largely around educating ourselves about the issues and the war in Vietnam. And so, by that time, we had really won over most students in, in the country by 1969. Then basically comes to the students' strike, which was pretty breathtaking. I mean, we had American G.I.'s who were our age in Vietnam, deserted their posts in Vietnam. If you tried to organize a military parade, anywhere in the United States. In the spring of 1970, you-you really was virtually impossible to do that, because of the opposition of G.I., not-not antiwar students now, the G.I.'s themselves would block the parades and I mean, threatened mutiny, and that was inside the United States, it was just unheard of that you could get such opposition of the ranks of the military it, itself. So, but what happened was that it was such a blowout of them that, at that is, in the summer of-of 1970, there was just a sense that what more can we do? I mean, there was not a, you know, we-we were very steeped in nonviolence. And there was no, I mean, there was there were some that would say, let us just revolt, you know, but, but that was not the position of the movement or the coalition. So, it was just sort of a letdown. So, in the, in the fall of, of 1970, you could, you know, you call a meeting of SDS or the antiwar movement, and kind of nobody showed up. It just, it just feels the energy just went out, people were depressed, but what more can we do? In the meantime, I was reading reports from French scientists and Vietnamese scientists that there was a genetic mutation that was occurring, that would potentially could, could annihilate the Vietnamese. I mean, it was it was, it was, you know, we-we actually see it today and thousands and thousands of people who are born deformed, or, you know, cannot breathe or, you know, their, their head is misshaped, you know, because of the, of the chemicals that were used in Vietnam. I mean, it was just, you know, and we did not know how severe was going to be. I mean, it turned out to be pretty severe. So, I felt like what we had to do was not calm down, but to actually increase the pressure, and that it was time to move towards large scale nonviolent civil disobedience in Washington. So, I went to the coalition in the fall of 19, I guess 1970 and made the proposition that we should do a mass mobilization with large scale civil disobedience in Washington, D.C., and the concept was that we would actually close the government down nonviolently, you know, if there if the government in the United States does not stop the war in Vietnam, then we will stop the government of the United States. That was that was the message, you know. Well, it was not the coalition had a problem with civil disobedience if done appropriately. But, no one believed it was possible. So it was just, you know, so there was a sense that the movement was over, right, then, you know, going into the (19)70s, you know, the fall of 1970, I would say, the, I mean, even Time magazine came out with a cover story called " The Cooling of America." And it was just the sense that things were over. So, I did not really know, but I did not buy it. And so, I decided on my own to go test the waters. So, I think my first stop was Syracuse University. And, you know, the-the, the organizers that sponsored me to speak there, were, you know, were pretty depressed, really, they-they did not think there would be much of a turnout. But, you know, everybody was still there. And everybody was curious about what was happening. And so, I walked into an auditorium there 5000 people in the room. And so, I-I just laid out the whole picture of what was happening in Vietnam and, and, you know, this genetic damage that was occurring and, and-and you know, ended with the government does not stop the war we will stop the government, you know, and it was, it was really, it was rather remarkable when you could hear a pin drop [inaudible]. At the end, it was just, it was, you know, I do not know, you know, people were just beside themselves, you know, everyone is on fire, you know, standing, cheering, screaming, standing up, [inaudible]. It was, and so right then I knew it was possible to do it. And so, I knew take a little while so I just went on the road and started speaking every day, sometimes twice a day. And, eventually the coalition figured it out what was happening. And they, you know, they, they joined forces, in the end, but I-I had a woman that, you know, donate some money. And I had a neighbor, a neighbor, a neighbor across the street, he was kind of a cop unite. I basically got in office, and they answered phones, and you know, I just kind of did it on my own for a little while, the coalition finally came together and stepped in and brought their capacity to the table. And I just continued to speak on the opening day of our event, there was three main events. This was now the spring of 1971. There were 250,000 people at the Capitol. And hope so we you know, and then basically, over 1000 Vietnam veterans turn their-their badges and their certificates of military service, you know, back to Congress, you know, and-and incredible protests of-of veterans. And then from there- SM: 1:39:35 Wow. Unnamed speaker: 1:39:44 Are we good? I have a coaching call. [inaudible] RD: 1:41:11 Oh, I could go out, hold on, Steven I am going to move my location. SM: 1:41:33 Okay, thank you. RD: 1:41:38 Yeah. So, the second part was the Vietnam Veterans part. And then they came the time when everybody who was ready to be arrested, assembled, and I, I set out to speak, and, I mean, [chuckles] oh, my God, it-it really, I really found myself pretty speechless. I mean, there were 100,000 people ready to be arrested. And this was, we call it the May Day, you know, that. It is, you know, turned into the largest arrests in American history, our, you know, our logistics, we were so excited that we could not, no one could sleep. So, we got out of the roads and bridges, you know, I mean, you did not follow protocol. Everybody got out there too early. And, so there were lots of residents moving us out of the city and stuff like that. And, we were criticized because we did not close the government doubt, you know, too much, a little bit. But, you know, it had a huge impact on the country. And, you know, the whole military of the country would mobilize them, the entire east coast. Marines landed, you know, on the Washington ball. There was a Washington Post reporter who felt that this part of history kind of slipped away. And so, you just completed a book on all the, you know, I have not seen the book. So, I do not know how it will be but, you know he seemed like a legitimate recorder. In trying to, what really happened with May Day, you know, it was really pretty spectacular. A lot of historians know that it was really what caused Nixon to kind of give it up and at least go in and sign the Paris Peace Accords, you know, in 1973. SM: 1:43:38 Right. RD: 1:43:39 So, so I am trying to answer your question when did the movement stop, you know. It, it sorts of, it sorts of looked like it stopped after the student strike. Then we revised ourselves and came back with May Day, and so it was still going now, though, really over. There was no question about it now. But then at that point, I was, I was watching television and I saw John and Yoko in a, hotel bedroom, you know, declaring themselves to be you know, sit in a bed in for peace or something. You know, as I listened to John talk, I realized that this guy wants to be one of us. You know, I mean, he was really laying it out. And so, so once it was too long before I found myself in his apartment in lower Manhattan, and, as we got acquainted, I decided to make a proposal to him which was, let us tour the country the two of us, I will bring the speakers you bring the musicians, we will go to 42 cities and end up at the Republican convention in San Diego with a million people. And absolutely bring us word when asked. And he said, "I am in, let us do it." Like, beach love to that. There was a laugh. There was a last hurrah. [laughs] You know what happened was we went to Ann Arbor aa=s our first place. We had a venue, I do not know, 20 or 25,000 people indoors. Tickets sold out in 45 minutes, so I thought that was a good sign. We had a guest entertainer that even, even John did not know was coming. His name was Stevie Wonder. SM: 1:45:51 Wow. RD: 1:45:51 We had, got he was focused, each-each, each venue was going to focus on a particular issue. And so, the first issue was political prisoners in the United States, as John Sinclair, who was a friend of mine, was in jail, he went to an art party. And somebody, a woman asked him, though, if he had a marijuana joint, so he rolled one, and she wanted another one. And so, he, he gave her two joints to take it out. And it turned out, she was an undercover police agent. And so, the long and short of it was he, he went to jail was in prison for 10 years for two marijuana joints. And so, he became our first focus. So, that we yeah, so I got John on the phone from prison, talking into the arena, to you know, 25,000 screaming people. And it was a very moving story. I mean, you know, he really cared about his wife and his two children. And it was very touching emotional thing. I spoke after John spoke on the phone. And so, I do not know, it was probably a little bit over the top for me, but I, I basically proposed a civil disobedience is dead in Detroit, it was - we closed down the city of Detroit. [laughs] If John was not released from prison in two weeks. [laughter] SM: 1:47:36 I interviewed, I interviewed John. RD: 1:47:39 Oh, good. Okay. SM: 1:47:40 I interviewed him about- RD: 1:47:41 Anyway. So, you know, so the thing happened is that he-he was with me with that, and he never went back either. It was really rather after having been denied three appeals, the-the threat of what we I mean, we were still in a very formidable however, that was the last straw for the Nixon administration. And so, they basically started deportation proceedings against John Lennon. And, and at that point, John basically just got surrounded by lawyers and, you know, went into a legal fight to stay in the country. So that, that to me was the-the official, kind of culmination of the, you know of the movement right there. SM: 1:47:46 -continue. RD: 1:47:51 Now, [crosstalk] did you finish your concerts of the 42 cities? No, I would say we did the first one. And then John was yanked out by the, by the justice. So, we never we never did our tour. I mean we did the first one but that was it. SM: 1:48:59 You know, it is interesting. You are commenting about the same timeframe. It is some of the people I interviewed, interviewed out on the West Coast, thought that the end of the (19)60s came when people started going to the communes, you know, the whole communal movement and everything- RD: 1:49:15 Right, yeah. SM: 1:49:16 -dropping out and, and then, and then the radicalization of the weathermen and how they kind of start doing violence and SDS basically ended. So, a lot of things were happening around that particular timeframe. RD: 1:49:33 Yeah, you know, I would be I would be inclined to have a little more precision about it. You know, I would say the, the weathermen event really started in after Chicago, more into 1969 but it-it quickly went underground and it-it did not really get-get much traction fortunately, you know, I felt it was a, you know, it was really a, I mean, that would be the quickest way to end a large public movement, to basically to start to move towards violence, you know, you are going to lose just about everybody, you know, with that. So, I do not think the weathermen, you know, there was a deterioration of things, that is for sure. The weathermen was a part of it. I went to the second Nixon inauguration, in (19)72 in Florida, and, you know, things were really kind of over at that point. I mean, we had like 10,000 people turnouts, I decided to do a 42-day water fast, to kind of bring a moral quality to it, you know. And it, it ended in a tear gas battle. It, you know, I do not know, you know, so things were, I think, you know, when I think of a movement, I think the ability to generate large public events where people come together, but you know, after that, you know, so for me, the last, that event was with John Lennon, you know, in Ann Arbor after that, there were certain things that went on, and there was a transition. You know, a lot a lot. I mean, I would put myself in this category, there were people that were, you know, things were winding down. And there was a sense of moving into, you know, communes is one expression, meditation was another, I mean, the Beatles, quite some time ago, went off to learn a meditation in India, transcendental meditation. When the Paris Peace Accords, were signed in 1973, I, I was invited by Madame Bing to be a part of that ceremony. And so, I decided to go and so I flew to Paris, and on the plane was a former roommate of mine who was married into the Eli Lilly family, so he had funds. And he was on his way to India. So, he offered to basically, you know, pay my way, and-and why do not we go and explain what he was going to do. He was going to go see spiritual snafus. And that I know, it sounded good to me, you know [chuckles] I thought the war was [inaudible] I did not know what, that is what I thought at the time. So, you know, and then I wound up, you know, learning a meditation there, that where I had, you know, kind of a powerful internal experience, which was completely unexpected. And so, spent some time you know, in in that world, and, you know, meditation, communes, were moving into nature and, you know, learning a lot, a lot of issues about sustainability. You know, farming and that sort of thing. And, I mean, there was, there was definitely a trend, a very slow boat back to society, that that culminated in quiet time, meditation for some people, communes for quite a few people. You know, it was all a transition back to society in a way, you know. [chuckles] So however you want to look at it, I, you know, the movement with the ability to generate large public events, I think, ended in Ann Arbor, but there was certainly a long transition, you know, back to so called society that went on for a couple of years really after that. SM: 1:54:10 What, what did you become linked to a religious leader at one time? I think you did, did not you? RD: 1:54:16 Well, that was, that was what happened to me, I mean it was a little bizarre, really, I did not see myself as having any interest in a guru. But there was this teacher in India that we visited, and we went to several ashrams and the one that I visited, there were all these people that knew me, who were doing this meditation, it was total, the, the, the argument was, you should try it and then and then decide, you know, you get your own evidence [inaudible], ad so, so I decided, okay, well, I will try it, you know, the one of the, one of the techniques was to create light in yourself, in your body and your, you know, you see it kind of in your skull. But for me, it was like my, you know, it was it was not like I am the only one pascal talked about this experience. Walt Whitman had this experience, or you know, there you see it in history, there is a, there is a place where, you know, a light goes on inside yourself, and it is hard to defend it or say what it is, but it is very altering. I mean it, it gets your attention, that is for sure. And so that is, that happened to me. And so, I kind of bought into a bit of a religion, I would say, for a short period of time, you know, I-I felt drawn to continue the meditation. And the teacher wanted to do an event at the, at the astro- Astrodome in Houston. And so, he asked me to organize that event. [chuckles] And so, the lobby that gave me some letters associated with their whole room, you know. We filled the Astrodome though with it. And, and I spoke at that event myself, before. But I do not know, it did not, it did not last that long. You know, I mean, I kind of, you know, I am, I am still an internal person today, and I-I have a lot of, you know, my own understandings about it, but I-I would not, you know, I would not be a teacher myself or follow a teacher, you know, I mean, it just, it was, it was a different world for me. So, but there was a period that shows up in my resume now. [laughs] [crosstalk] For a while, you know. SM: 1:57:04 Yeah, were you? Were you - where did you get a lot of criticism, this really a national activist leader, going kind of dropping out, so to speak? Did you get criticism? RD: 1:57:07 I-I Yeah, I-I did. You know, it was difficult. I mean, like, right now, people who are critical then, that they all are, they all have no problem at all with meditation, yoga, you know, I mean, it is, it is sort of but, but I was so associated with the political side of, of making change, you know, through a movement that, I mean, even Tom Hayden, who is my dearest friend, you know, just, I mean, he was just so perplexed. SM: 1:57:56 Yes. RD: 1:57:56 It was a little bit like Eldridge Cleaver, I mean you know, it was like a key person of Black Panther Party, suddenly, suddenly became a Christian. It was like, what, it just, it just shocked people to the core, you know, like, "How can this be," you know. SM: 1:58:08 [laughs] [laughs] RD: 1:58:16 I am not saying that, you know, I was a Christian. I was not but, you know, I guess there was a parallel there, you know, you know, to step from politics and a movement leader into anything has to do with quiet, spiritual reflection, you know, like, "What are you talking about?" You know, but, essentially, it was a quiet revolution at the end of the (19)60s. And if you look today, the number of there are many, many, I mean, many people, it has gone pretty mainstream. Really, I mean, just, you know, the self-help. You know, be, be here now, you know. Quantum thinking, you know, let us not be so brain shatter and let, it knowingness, come in, you know things like that, you know, it is not so unconventional. I mean, the (19)60s really led to supporting that kind of thinking, and-and it is a broad-based thing, it is a little more quiet, but it is still a broad based thing that actually does exist today. SM: 1:58:59 Right. You know what is interesting. I had a poster hanging on my wall. I was at Ohio State. It was a Peter Max poster, it was kind of like the artist of the (19)60s. And I will never forget the slogan. The slogan was, "If you, you do your thing and I will do mine if by chance we get should come together that will be beautiful," [laughs] RD: 1:59:45 Right. [chuckles] SM: 1:59:49 And I, now I regret saying goodbye to that poster many years back. If you had anything to do over again, Rennie, what would you change if anything? RD: 2:00:03 Change, I do not know that I would say, really all that much. I do not really have a lot of, I mean, even, even though as the grim arise thing, with the meditation. I mean, it is, it is certainly not who I am today. And, and there is, there is things that I did in the (19)60s that I am not today, but that for me, personally, I feel like everything, led me to today. And I like where I am today, I really am, you know, I feel there is, there is a profoundness in the world that that has to do with my own awareness of myself. And I am, I am not, I am happy with my understanding, even though I am still so immature and early stage in terms of where it can go. But I am, I am learning to quiet the brain and access the mind. And I think that is actually going to be the great transition for the future of humanity, the mind is not the same as the brain. Contrary to popular opinion, I mean, the brain is located in the skull, but there is an electrical field that comes off of the skin organ, that is where the mind is located. And being, learning how to access the mind, gives you a, a tool that is just pretty breathtaking. Really, I mean, you can you get to see every single component in an issue, that does it takes everything into account in the way of the brain cannot begin to imagine. And, and it is, it is just, it is just a different way of being. And so, the (19)60s into kind of this transition, the what I call the, "Quiet Revolution" like communes, the meditations, that is whatever, you know, as for me, kind of brought me you know, into being in the world, being practical about things. I mean, I had a successful business career, I then, I, I visited the Grand Canyon, in in the middle of the 1990s. For a little five-day tour, I fell in love with the canyon, and I wound up basically living in the bottom of the Grand Canyon for close to four years. SM: 2:02:43 Wow. RD: 2:02:44 I would come out to get supplies and things like that. But, you know, I-I learned I do not know if you have ever tried to do this, but it is, you know, if you if you basically are quiet, and do not talk to anybody, you are just by yourself in nature for say 12 days. For real, you know, it is a pretty life changing event- SM: 2:03:10 Wow. RD: 2:03:10 -to do something like that, over years, you know, months at a time without talking to anybody you know, in nature is, though, it really changes a lot, you know, so I have had that experience too. And it is, it is, it is probably the richest thing I have ever done really, you know, it has given me abilities that are, you know, I-I have discovered I have 14 senses not five. I have sonar, I have radar, I have, you know, telepathic abilities, you know, every human being has it, but it is just not something we have, we have developed. And so, so, you know, right now I feel more alive and more. I do not know, you know, I just feel I feel good where I am. And I feel like everything I have ever done has brought me to this moment. So, I, I do not really feel critical of anything in my life. SM: 2:04:13 You are evolving. You are always evolving and, your business career. Just a few words. What was that business career all about? RD: 2:04:22 Well, we it was a, service series of good fortunes, really, we, you know, we did not I mean, my dad was an economist, and I, you know, I studied economics and I had some sense of finance, I guess, you know, so we just, you know, I would partner up with a person who and we had a team of people and we were, we were pretty confident, we learned fast. And we were able to start as consultants and to [inaudible] why we are a little miniature Booz Allen, meaning a full service, management consulting company, we-we kind of just put up our, our single was we, we will do anything. And then we would spend, stay up all night and learn a subject when we, if got us, got into science, so it was kind of like that. I headed up a financial planning component in the company. We also had the Human Resources executive search, you know, we had Mobil Oil, and we were the finest executive search term i their corporate experience. And I was the financial planner for the board of directors of Gates Rubber Company, the president of Manville Corporation, president of HBO, you know, People and the Forbes 400 Riches. You know, I had quite a prestigious clientele, we wound up acquiring 80 acres stayed in Evergreen, that, you know, the main home with golden stone on a cliff. You know, we had our own helicopter, you know- -we were successful, you know, in business. And, then then basically, we had a, we were trying to form a national securities company, and take technologies that we were acquiring through inventors, and take them into a public company. And, the- are-are investor, was basically was closing a deal with Texaco, which was triple A rated, and no one knew that Texaco was about to go chapter 11. Because of a loss, with Pennzoil, so it kind of came out of nowhere, and suddenly, we lost our investor, and we had borrowed money on the estate, to make an initial move, you know, and so we were, we were thrown into chapter 11, for three years. And, you know we, we organize 2 public companies, while a chapter 11 kind of dug herself out, got people whole, pretty much. And, and then basically, I, it was then that I decided to take some time out and go to the Grand Canyon. So, then I just dropped out. I mean, I did not, I really left this [inaudible] went into a quiet space. So, I do not know what to say the business was a rich experience. But I mean, I learned a lot about business. We were so called successful for 10 years. [laughs] SM: 2:06:09 Wow. Wow that is good. RD: 2:07:48 Another, another life experience that [inaudible]. SM: 2:07:51 Yeah, I know. It leads into a question, what are the, what are your greatest accomplishments in life? What are you most proud of? RD: 2:08:01 Well, I am certainly, pleased with what I did in the (19)60s. You know, I-I do not see myself as drawn to being a public personality, or, you know, that, that part of it just, you know, helped me do what I wanted to do, you know, what I wanted to do, honestly, was, was to make the world a better place, and civil rights was the first leg of that and, and ending the war in Vietnam was, was the second. And so, it was, it was gratifying to see an entire generation mobilize around, you know, a principal position, you know, and really, actually make a difference. I mean, there was lots of ways to criticize what happened and how we fell short and whatever. But, you know, to be in the middle of something like that it was a phenomenon really, one of the rarest moments in, in American history. I mean, movements have happened before. And, but they were rare. And but when- SM: 2:09:12 Wow. RD: 2:09:12 -they happen they are, I mean the Renaissance change, the feudal order, and the (19)60s, really had a big impact on things. So, you know, I was, I am pleased to be, to have been a part, part of that. I would say now I am, I am curious about how the human race can survive and have a future at all. I think that climate change issue is far more severe than, than people that are in climate change really understand. It, I am, I am all for human beings rising to the occasion and try to change the outcome but you know I, I have such an understanding of it that, I do not really I do not really think that is what is going to happen, I do not think we are going to change the outcome, I think we are going to basically go through a chase, like, just unimaginable, what is about to happen. Whether it be any human being at all on the planet, will would be a more, you know, a clear question, I think. SM: 2:09:55 I agree. RD: 2:10:01 And I think it is possible with evolution. And, and that is, that is what I am interested in. It is not, it is not easy, you know, to change your awareness. I do not know, if you have ever tried to change anything in yourself. It is very formidable to do it. But you know, what I have been doing is creating, a more simple way to take a, a body of understanding new to the world and make it available to people who want to do it. You know, I mean, take something like check egos, we could all say, "Yeah, let us, let us check egos in the human race." But the fact is, that there is not a psychologist, or a psychiatrist, or a scientist, or anybody that I am aware of, that can even tell you what an ego is, or how many we have, or where they are located, or how to find them because they hide, or how to edit in ego, I mean, actually do it, you know. And so, what I have been able to do is to, answer that question in detail. And then create a system, where a group of people where a person could do it, and, and have tools for how to do it. So, we have a little system where basically you, you pick a card for the day. And there is a one page write up on that card, and then you take the understanding on the write up into your day. And it is, and there is lots of practices that go with it, all of which are new to the world, and no one has ever heard of any of them. And we, we work with small groups of people. And we just watch people change right before our eyes. I mean, it is certainly not overnight. It is really, people are doing it. And so, I feel like, at the end of the day, that will probably be my own legacy, not what I did in the (19)60s at all. But actually, how could the human race have its future by changing itself? SM: 2:12:37 That is excellent, because that leads right into the next question, which is, if down the road long after you and I, and all of our peers are long gone. What would you hope people would say about you, Rennie? RD: 2:12:52 Yeah, well, I do not really have any personal identity that I need to be remembered I am, I am not really quite there. But, I would love to see the human race, step into a deeper understanding of how the world works. So, I would say that here is what humanity thinks. It works right now, the world outside myself is real, it is solid. And it is certainly independent of myself. I mean, everybody knows bad things happen for no reason at all. And if one thing does not get me something else will. And-and, and so there is that that is kind of how we see the world. The way I see the world, which I am confident is actually the physics of our reality, not a philosophy or anything, you know, a belief system, but actually, the way it works is a world as a hall of mirrors, reflecting back to each person their own thoughts and perceptions. And that no one is doing anything to you. No one has ever done anything to you, everything that you are experiencing, including poor me, victim, you know, martyr, everything that is going down has its origin and about 50,000 thoughts across your own brain every 24 hours. And so, the, the, the world is a reflection of how you see yourself. So, learning how to, how the world actually works, and the need to point the finger and blame anybody for your own conditions. You can take create your own reality within the larger reality. You can walk out of the prison of the entire human condition. You, you could take back your life with a note how, but it is not a note how that is found in any tradition or any New Age practice or any religion or anything that presently exists, something completely new to human understanding is required to change your, to fundamentally evolve. But it is, it is still part of our-our makeup. I mean, it is what I am talking about is actually found in our genetics, though the uncovering of the genetics is one of the great, great discoveries of all time, they, you know, we want we want to know, I mean, did the price story really happen as described in the Bible or Mohammed story, or the Buddhist story, or all these perfect masters or, or any story, you know it does not have to be religion, anything at all, every single claim that is ever happened is recorded in our own genetics down to the tiniest detail, and learning, to understand the great treasure trove inside ourselves is, is just is the ultimate liberation for the human race. If you know, it, just it is a complete, you know, I call it a new [inaudible], but it is a, this transformed everything to do this. And so, what I am hoping to do is to leave a legacy of how to do this. You know, before I go. SM: 2:16:27 Well, that is beautifully said Rennie, and I remember I had a conversation with Tom Hayden, when he came to Westchester University several years ago. And he met with students, he met with student leaders, and Tom asked them, "Do you really have power in your student leadership positions," and they said, "Oh, yes, we do. We control the budgets, we control how much each organization gets, we get pointed on certain committees." And I saw, and I looked over at Tom and Tom was eyes were rolling. RD: 2:16:58 [laughs] SM: 2:17:01 That is not power. And when he did not, he did not any finally, and these were the leaders of student government. And he said, "I am not talking about power. I am talking about empowerment, have you ever heard of it?" [laughs] And he went into a long oration about the fact that the students of the (19)60s, the people like you and others who got involved in activities to make this world better for others, were empowered to do it. And, your thoughts on the difference between power and empowerment? Because Tom knew exactly what they were and those students that he tried to communicate with did not. RD: 2:17:44 Yeah, no, I am, I am with that I really am, I would say that. You know, in my language, I would say awareness is when I am interested in you know, evolution to me is a, is a, is a transition to various stages, the first stage is to wake up, human beings came from a material that had no awareness at all, and we have woken up, we, we are awake. And after we wake up, we then go into aware, and then after aware, we can become conscious after conscious intelligence. And after intelligence, supreme intelligence, so you could call that whole thing empowerment if you would like. Human beings on average, everywhere in the world, I would put it about 5 to 6 percent awake right now. So, the bullet I am working with are, are beginning to get up around 75 percent awake, and that gives them a window into aware, I mean an unaware person, you know, if some, if you were aware, and somebody kicked, just walked by you and they had a certain outward demeanor, you-you would know inside yourself, all of those internal belief systems of that person that has created their external behavior. I mean it is just a participant nominal, you know, you would have not 5 senses, but 14 senses would be activated, including sonar in the hair follicles of the ear, radar in the forehead. There is a sensory perception in your hair, there is airborne, hormones that come up with a skin that connect with other people all the way around the world. If you want anywhere you put your direction, massive data can flow back and forth between those circuits. This, this is the future of humanity. This is where we are going, if we survive, you know, so anyway, you know, I am more interested in creating a system that could help people stepped into a completely new world of understanding where they no matter even if they are surrounded by fear and a stereo. They are, they are still in their beauty they, they can create their own reality unaffected by the stereo of the world. SM: 2:20:46 I only got a few more questions. And then we done I just have a question here, just a general one. But in your definition, what is a leader? RD: 2:20:53 [chuckles] Well, in my definition, a leader is someone who could listen, leader is, is someone who walks or talk. A leader is not someone who berates, who, who creates fear, who basically, you know, is-is self-absorbed, in-in their own egos. I mean, that is sort of how leaders are defined today, for the most part, but-but leadership might not ever even be seen, you know, it just I know, people who are leaders who-who are completely unknown, but when they walk into a room, they just exude a beauty. And, and their-their, the way they respect. And-and, and the way they, what they, what they send off of themselves, feels nourishing to anybody around them. And so, so my, my view of leadership is this, so much in the current base of condition, but more in a future state that I call the new humanity. There is a, another stage of awareness, where leadership, which is inspiration, the ability to listen, you know, so the leader would basically go where they are invited not where they feel like, you know, this person is not doing it right and I need to fix them, you know. The leader understands that the only law in this reality is the law of free will. Everyone has the right to choose their own journey to evolve or not, there is no right or wrong. And so, a leader really has moved from the stage of judgment, "I am right, you are wrong," to the stage of unconditional respect. SM: 2:23:07 It is wonderful, Rennie, that is beautiful. I think I am, I am going to challenge you on one thing you said and that is, that-that you do not care if the world knows about you years from now? Well, I do. And that is- -what the that is what these interviews are about. And I am making sure that this university that I am getting bound in here protects these interviews and gives them the respect they deserve. Because the people that I picked to be interviewed, are very important to me. And they are very important, I think, to future generations. And so, at the point, the point of doing this, that is, you should have, and I am going to my last question is going to be this. And it just kind of maybe a convoluted a roundabout way, but the Age of Aquarius, which we all know, that fifth-dimension song, the fifth-dimension song, with so much hope, so much possibility that the spirit of those times ends in failure. And if so, why? We still have war, we still have hate, we still see massive divisions between our races and different political groups ongoing historic hatred between countries and people. War is never ending. It is just history repeating itself over and over and over again. And why, for one brief moment, the 1960s and (19)70s there was a chance to correct this course, but like all times did we fail? Your response. RD: 2:23:24 [laughs] Yeah, no, I do not think there was a failure. I think I am a bit metaphysical on movements. You know, there is I-I have a view of people existing before they are born, and you a, a group of people coming into the world, to pick on a certain mission at a particular time, I view the Renaissance, as, you know, the feudal order was pretty brutal time. And, and then the Renaissance appeared, out seemingly out of nowhere. And it rewrote, you know, the possibilities for, you know, 1000 years. I mean, it really had a big impact the human race, the American Revolution was similar. People came in to do that experiment. And, yeah, it was, it failed and went off in many areas, and so forth. But the fact is, is that it-it did create something for a while. And the (19)60s certainly in my view, falls into that category too; a group of people came in with-with a mission. Now we are in the present time and I see the same thing occurring. The half the world's population today is 25 years of age or younger. And so, there is there, there are a group of people that, right now that are going to rise to the occasion apply to climate change. And, and the other interrelated issues that are threatening life on the Earth, they actually can see the condition that they are in, they-they know that our oceans are dying, or rainforests are in peril, humanity has exceeded its global limit on the planet, they were not in the delusion that, that this can just go on and on and on, there is no end to it, it never stops. You know, that is just not where it is, is Arnold Toynbee has talked about this extensively, you know, how he studied civilizations that collapse, and every single one of them believes everything is fine, right to the end. It is always that way, but there is always a group of people see it coming, and typically become the seeds for the next generation. Now, whether when this can happen, or how, you know, I understand how it could happen, but when I do not know, what actually we it needs to occur, is to go from 5 percent awake to fully awake. I know, that is not easy to explain what I mean by that, but it is a, you know, we need to change our awareness, and is not done by basically how we vote, or, or, or, you know, getting other people to change, most movements that out, they want to change that. So, the movement that will ultimately succeed, is the movement that wants to change yourself, you know, get over trying to change that, let them be, let them be them. But what we need is an example, in the world of a new stage of awareness, And it is not, it is not just, it is not just simple words, like, "Let us be in respect," you know, "Let us be civil," all of that is fine, but an awareness of how the world works, and how actually, you could make decisions with a mind instead of the brain. And I mean, there is so, you know, under real, discovering the human body, what is it is capabilities are, it is the most advanced thing in creation, you know, I mean, we-we have, we have talents and abilities that we have no idea what they are. And so, a new stage of awareness is the only way that the human race is going to get off of this broken cycle. You know, let us, let us do war. Let us do peace. Let us do war. Let us do, you know, just on and on, endless conflicts, the endless suffering. I am a victim here, you know, it is just, it, it will never stop until we change your awareness. And awareness will never happen until a group of people create a pathway into a new stage of awareness that others can follow. So, that to me is going to be the big step, a group of human beings who become a new humanity and really do it themselves. And-and basically, if you could create abundance and joy, a life of respect, and magic where everything flowed, and life was not stressful, hurtful, life was not like a series of whatever will go wrong always goes wrong when you know, it is just, you know you get control of your thoughts is what it is. And that is really quiet I mean, it is, it is hard to even imagine that I mean, become aware of yourself, not aware of everybody else around you, is a, is a, just so radical thing you know. So, a group of people like a pioneer that avenue that direction, for me is going to be the hope of the human race. SM: 2:30:34 Very well said. And I will close with this. Is there any question that you thought I was going to ask that I did not ask? RD: 2:30:41 No, you are completely exhausted. And I think you have asked every possible question imaginable. [laughter] SM: 2:30:49 Well Rennie, we will be in touch for sure. And now again, thank you very much. Before we hang up, I am going to turn the tape off here. Thank you very much and, thanks. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. 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Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 8/7/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Sinclair Biographical Text John Sinclair is a poet, writer, and political activist. He was born in Flint, Michigan. Sinclair later became the manager of rock band MC5 in the late 1960s and was a founding member of the White Panther Party, a far-left, anti-racist political collective. He earned his Bachelor's degree in American literature from the University of Michigan and completed coursework toward a Master's degree in American Literature at Wayne State University. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:28:05 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords John Sinclair; 1960's; 1970's; MC5; John Lennon; The Beats; Beatnik; Beatles; Yippie; Hippie; Paul Krassner; Jerry Rubin; Allen Ginsberg; Hash Bash; (Davison; MI); White Panther Party; COINTELPRO; Bill Kunstler; Hugh M. Davis Jr.; Damon Keith; Abbie Hoffman; Festival of Light; Bobby Seale; Huey Newton; Rainbow People’s Party; Robert Martian; Hauldeman-Ehrlichman; Rennie Davis; Jack Kerouac; Eldridge Cleaver; John Kerry; Marijuana Movement; Michael Moore; SDS; FBI; CIA; J. Edgar Hoover; Ed Sanders; Leonard Weinglass; FISA; Justice Rehnquist; Nixon. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: John Sinclair Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Carrie Blabac-Myers Date of interview: 7 August 2019 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 SM: All right, we are on. 0:04 JS: Good 0:05 SM: Well, first off ̶ 0:06 JS: Now can I ask you this? Can you give me an mp3 file of this when it is done? 0:11 SM: Oh, yes. 0:12 JS: Okay, great. 0:12 SM: Yeah. It has, it has to be it has to be sent from the university. Not me, the university. 0:17 JS: I do not care who sends it, I just want to get it. 0:19 SM: Yep. You will get it. 0:21 JS: For my records. 0:22 SM: Yeah, all my interviews and everything has to be approved first before they ever can be used for research and scholarship. 0:29 JS: [laughs] 0:31 SM: Okay, my first question. 0:32 JS: Well, I do not have that problem. 0:34 SM: [laughs] Okay. 0:36 JS: I am just a citizen. 0:37 SM: Yeah, my first question is when you think of the 1960s and early 1970s what is the first thing that comes to your mind? 0:46 JS: A big smile. 0:48 SM: [laughs] Is there anything beyond that smile? 0:56 JS: Well, I was just thinking about what a great time it was. 1:00 SM: Is there any particular event that stands out to you during this whole (19)60s early (19)70s that, were you were not involved that, you know, think it was an amazing event and also an event where you were involved? 1:22 JS: Oh, I do not know. It was daily life for me since from about (19)64 until I do not know, (19)80 some time. [laughs] It was a succession of events day after day. A way of life. It was not just events you know what I mean? It was not no Woodstock or nothing like that. 1:47 SM: Right. 1:48 JS: Daily life with people. Taking LSD. You know. Fighting the government. Trying to end the war in Vietnam. Putting on free concerts, all that kind of stuff. 2:00 SM: When do you take when to take your first drug? 2:04 JS: My first what? 2:05 SM: When did you take marijuana or any drug? When was the first time you ever took it? 2:13 JS: Well you know, marijuana is not a drug. That is a misconception. Marijuana is a medicine. 2:21 MS: Right. 2:24 JS: I started smoking marijuana by 1962, early in 1962. But before that I took sleeping pills. I drank cough syrup. I drank beer, wine, whiskey, rum. [laughs] 2:38 MS: What was your ̶ You grew up in Flint. What was it like growing up? 2:42 JS: I grew up in Davison, Michigan, outside of Flint, a little country town. 2:46 SM: Yeah. What was it like growing up for you? 2:51 JS: Well, it was like the movies of American life in the (19)50s in a small town of all white people. 2:59 SM: Did you go to a big high school? 3:01 JS: No, I went all thirteen years in the same building. 3:04 SM: Oh my gosh. 3:06 JS: I grew up in a small town Davison. 3:12 SM: I can tell you are a jazz. 3:20 JS: ̶ There was not anything in the town, it was an escape from the town, you know. 4:06 SM: Right. 4:06 JS: Mentally I could escape by listening to Ray Charles and Big Joe Turner. You know. 4:12 SM: Yeah well, Ray Charles is one of the one of the really good ones. 4:17 JS: Yeah. 4:17 SM: Do you? 4:18 JS: Well, I got into him right at the time that he switched to Atlantic records in 1952. I was eleven. So I remember his records on Atlantic, you know. 4:27 SM: Were you also if you were interested in the blues, were you also interested in jazz? 4:32 JS: Not until I got out of high school. 4:35 SM: Yeah, Coltrane and Miles. 4:37 JS: When I went to college, I got turned on to jazz. 4:40 SM: Yeah. 4:41 JS: And then I became a jazz fanatic. Then I became, in the mid – (19)60s I was an avant garde jazz fanatic: John Coltrane, Cecil Taylor, Sun Ra, Archie Shepp, Pharoh Sanders, you know. 4:57 SM: Will you ever into the group Weather Report? 5:01 JS: No, they were a little tame for me. 5:03 SM: [laughs] Well, um, when you look at the rock scene, obviously, you know, this is the era where music played a very important role in the (19)60s and (19)70s in the lives of both young people and all people in fact, were there any rock groups that stood out during that timeframe for you? 5:22 JS: Oh, sure. Of course. 5:27 SM: Any particular ones? 5:29 JS: You ever hear of the Beatles? 5:30 SM: Uh, I think I have. 5:31 JS: The Rolling Stones? The Who? 5:34 SM: Right. 5:36 JS: Let us start with them. 5:40 SM: Yeah. 5:41 JS: I was the manager of a group called the MC5. I was associated with scores of groups in Detroit, and later around the country. So yeah, I was aware of all of them. 5:54 SM: I have questions that I was going to ask later on about MC5, but maybe I will ask him right now because that was in the mid – (19)60s that you became their manager? 6:02 JS: Correct (19)67. Yeah, quite a few people that I know were MC5 fans. They were very wise. 6:11 SM: Well, they were MC5 fans [inaudible] quite a few people I know at Kent State were MC5 fans. They were music that was kind of, if I can remember correctly, that the Yippies really liked? 6:24 JS: Well, yeah, we were Yippies. 6:26 SM: Yeah. What was it like to be a Yippie? And for people? 6:30 JS: ̶ It was great! 6:30 SM: For those who may not grew, who may not know what Yippie is, what is a Yippie? 6:33 JS: A Yippie is a member of the Youth International Party or their followers that were not members. They did not really have a membership. They did not even have an office it was an idea promulgated by a recently departed Paul Krassner. 6:51 SM: Oh, yes. 6:52 JS: Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman and Ed Sanders and other guys. 6:57 SM: Yeah they were. 6:59 JS: ̶ That I knew. 7:00 SM: Yeah, Jerry came to Ohio State when I was there and gave one heck of a speech. 7:04 JS: I will bet he did. That was his forte. 7:08 SM: I remember that was 1971 and he was wearing that bandana with all those paintings on his face. 7:14 JS: Yep, yep. That was his peak right there. 7:17 SM: Yeah, well the crowd was unbelievable. 7:18 JS: That was when he got John Lennon to help me get out of prison. 7:23 SM: That whole thing about the event that took place in 1971. Correct me if I am wrong, you came to national fame because people got to know you through that song 'John Sinclair' is that correct? 7:37 JS: No. 7:38 SM: No? How did you become famous? 7:42 JS: Well, they gave me ten years for two joints. No appeal bond. I was fighting the marijuana laws and in 1972 I overturned the marijuana laws in the state of Michigan. Just before that song time came out. 7:58 SM: And I know that so many people were upset about the penalty that was given to you for simply selling two cigarettes to an undercover 8:06 JS: ̶ No, no, I sold nothing. I gave a police woman two cigarettes because she asked me for one. 8:12 SM: Right. And then of course they had that concert. 8:16 JS: There was no sale. 8:19 SM: The rock musicians did this concert and I could not believe how many big names were there! 8:26 JS: [digital music plays in the background] Well it was a culmination of two and a half years of concerts by everybody that we knew; everybody that supported me and we culminated it in this and Jerry Rubin convinced John Lennon and Yoko Ono to attend, and that took it over the top. 8:47 SM: When you heard that song for the first time that you were in prison, when you heard it, were you surprised? 8:55 JS: Surprised. 8:56 SM: Were you surprised that John had not written a song about you? 8:59 JS: Oh, of course, sure. 9:00 SM: It was an unbelievable thing. 9:02 JS: I did not know him. 9:05 SM: Yeah, well I can remember hearing that song on the radio when I was a kid. 9:10 JS: I had already been released by then, by the time the song was released. What did it was when he came to Ann Arbor in the flesh and appeared at our rally. That was three months before the record came out. 9:17 SM: Okay. 9:17 JS: He sang the song there. He had just written it. 9:33 SM: You have been a poet, you have been a poet for a long time. You started out as a poet. 9:37 JS: Long time. 9:40 SM: How would someone say who maybe knows you real well describe your poetry? 9:47 JS: Oh I have no idea. 9:49 SM: How would you describe it? 9:50 JS: Describing my poetry is; no it is not something I; that describes itself. You read the poem, there it is, you know. It is what it is. I do not know, it is not about something, it is what it is, you know, I am a poet. 10:09 SM: Now, do you? I notice that you connected the music with the poetry? So you were the spoken word? 10:17 JS: That is just a marketing term you know. Poetry is poetry you know. Then they have this other genre where you can say anything and they have poetry slams, but none of those really have anything to do with poetry per se. 10:35 SM: When did you start being a poet? Did you write in high school? 10:38 JS: In 1962. 10:39 SM: Wow. 10:43 JS: And I got to be fairly good by (19)64. 10:48 SM: Now, I know that you had mentioned that Allen Ginsberg and Ed Sanders were at that one concert but you had been with him before. 10:59 JS: They were my mentors, I followed them. 11:02 SM: Wow. They were; when, Alan Ginsberg came to Ohio State, he filled two ballrooms at one time. 11:12 JS: That is good. 11:13 SM: And he never opened his mouth. He just did a chant. You know. 11:17 JS: Oh dear. That was the least favorite part to me I liked his poetry and his recitations. 11:24 SM: But it was, it was what they called a 'happening' back then, and you know that word. I have some specific questions on the (19)60s and (19)70s. In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin? 11:40 JS: January 1, 1960. 11:43 SM: Okay. When did it end? 11:49 JS: December 31, 1969. When the (19)70s started. 11:56 SM: How do you feel about people that say the early (19)70s are part of the (19)60s? 12:01 JS: Oh, I do not care what they say. 12:02 SM: Yeah. A lot of people say that, and I mean, I have interviewed so many people. 12:08 JS: What they talk about the (19)60s, does not include the first part of the (19)60s either. They are talking about (19)68 to (19)75 or something like that. When white people discovered what was hippies, is what was going on. Really 19(69) Woodstock, really started in (19)69 what they think of it see because before that, they were all squares. Hippies was a small community of people regarded as outcasts. Hated by squares. 12:45 SM: I know that the ̶ we interviewed a person who mentioned that he thought the (19)60s was divided into two parts. Part one was 1960 to 1963 when Kennedy was shot and then (19)60s and then after that (19)64 to (19)70 when all hell broke loose. How do you like that commentary? Do you agree with that? 13:09 JS: No, I see at all as a continuity. 13:16 SM: Also, the Beats played a very important role here. And I like the thought on the Beats because this is just it is way beyond just having Allen Ginsberg and Ed Sanders. You know they were different. And they were the first one that really kind of challenged the system in many ways with their writings. They were ahead of their time. Some people, some people think that the (19)60s really began with the Beats in the (19)50s. Your thoughts on that? 13:43 JS: Well I do not know you are using the (19)60s as a metaphor for a period of social change. That really has a different set of numbers, so it is kind of confusing. You are talking about the social revolution that took place in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. 14:03 SM: Yes. And all the movements. 14:04 JS: That is not the (19)60s though. The (19)60s was ten years, you know, it was a decade. [laughs] 14:12 SM: Well, that is important, when I interview people, they have different opinions on everything in terms of the (19)60s and even on the Boomer generation. The one thing, and your thoughts on the issue of spirit when we talk about the boomer generation; which is originally when I was going to be writing a book on. 14:30 JS: The what? 14:31 SM: The Boomer generation that were born between 1946 and (19)64. 14:36 JS: Oh Boomer. Okay, yeah. 14:38 SM: I got corrected a many times by people by saying, it is not about age, it is about spirit. It's about the spirit of the time, I think was Richie Havens that told me that, "I am born in 1941 Steve and I am the (19)60s. I am the spirit of the (19)60s", because it was a period of time where there was a scary ̶ 14:57 JS: Well, we were the ones who did the things that were different. Yeah, yeah, I was born in (19)41. Sanders was born in (19)38 you know, we were the ones who did the things that were different. 15:09 SM: Right. 15:10 JS: People our age. 15:13 SM: When you hear that you know ̶ 15:15 JS: We were inspired by the beatniks and by black people. 15:21 SM: Could you explain a little more detail what you are saying there in terms of, because the people that will be listening to these who are going to be doing research and scholarship on this period. When you say that 'the beatniks' and people of color; black people were the inspiration. Could you go into a little more detail? 15:43 JS: Well, yeah, what do you want? 15:46 SM: How? Well how they inspired. How they inspired the spirit overall of that period. 15:53 JS: Well, by their example. By the way they lived, by the things that they created, their art, their ideas. 16:02 SM: Can you ever see a period of time? If the music was not there would there have been the (19)60s? 16:09 JS: I am sorry? 16:10 SM: If there had been (none) of the music that we all know happened in the (19)60s and (19)70s, would there have been a (19)60s? 16:19 JS: I do not know. [laughs] I do not know how you do these things! How you are going to separate these things? And why? Why do not we talk about what happened? I am not interested in speculating. I am interested in what happened. What is going to happen next? 16:37 SM: Yeah. What? When you look at this, when you look at this period, this ten years from 1960 to (19)70, what did happen in your in your view that made it so different than other decades? 16:55 JS: [laughs] Well, I saw the same thing that everyone else did. I do not know what you are you trying to get out of me? These are kind of big questions. 17:06 SM: Well, just based from your experiences, the things that you know, how you became who you are, and how you became the activist that you were, the poet that you were, the musician. 17:16 JS: I followed the example of the beatniks and I intermingled with black people and I studied their culture. This is what shaped my personality. Now, I got to write that practice you know? I listen to a lot of records. Thousands. 17:41 SM: One of the musicians that always fascinates me is Marvin Gaye. And particularly when he made the changeover in the late on that 1971 period when he did the album, What's Going On. 17:55 JS: Correct. 17:55 SM: And I thought it was his greatest work. But he got heavily criticized for it because I think because they were saying it was not the typical Marvin Gaye music and that seemed to be, I mean, a major happening in the early (19)70s in the music world. 18:14 JS: It was. 18:15 SM: I mean, I played it over and over again. It is that kind of music with messages. 18:18 JS: Also, Stevie Wonder do not leave him out, talk about brilliance. They were twin towers of creativity. 18:27 SM: Right. Look at the people. 18:30 JS: Then the Rolling Stones took Stevie Wonder on tour with them and introduced him to white people and then he became bigger. They also did that with Ike and Tina Turner and with B.B. King. 18:45 SM: What would your thoughts on the whole, the lawsuit or the ̶ that particular one in Ann Arbor, with the marijuana what the whole lawsuit that you won? Or Leonard Weinglass was your lawyer and it was case. 19:05 JS: That was a real specific case. That was a federal case of conspiracy. I was charged with conspiring to blow up a CIA office in Ann Arbor. 19:17 SM: And you won that case? 19:20 JS: Well, yeah, because the government said that they were wiretapping and they had, the defendants were captured on wiretaps but they could not say who the wiretap was on because it was a matter of national security. And then it came out that they were tapping national security targets without a wire warrant, and we challenged that in court with Weinglass, Bill Kunstler and the great Hugh M. Davis Jr. of Detroit. 19:57 SM: That is a major case because that whole period of the (19)60s with all these illegal things happening with COINTELPRO and all those activists organizations, I know when I was in college, they were spying on our campus. 20:10 JS: They were spying on all campuses and they were not supposed to have anybody active in United States. I did not happen to conspire to blow up this office but I know the people who did and I know why they did it to call attention to the fact that the CIA had an office that was recruiting on the campus of the University of Michigan. In violation of international and national law. 20:35 SM: So that is an historic case. 20:37 JS: So we unearthed them. Yeah well, the historic part was that we won in the Supreme Court. See, we had a judge in Detroit who just died, Damon Keith, a great jurist. It was in the eastern district of Michigan and he awarded in our favor that there was no such thing as a warrantless wiretap and that the government, he ordered the government to divulge the information on the wiretaps and they said, "We cannot divulge it because then we would have to say who it was on and blah, blah, blah, and it fits with our strategy." And they said, "Well, you have got to reveal it or drop the case." And so he freed us from the charge, and then the government appealed the judge's ruling. So my case went to the US Supreme Court, as US versus US District Court, eastern district of Michigan and that was adjudicated in the Supreme Court, eight to nothing in our favor and Nixon was repudiated. As a result of that this group, this organization, government organization, called FISA was created which came up again in the Bush era because he was defying them. You remember that? 21:25 SM: Yes, I do. 21:57 JS: Well FISA was established as a result of our case. Because they wanted to get a wiretap that nobody else knew about they had to go to the FISA court. They could not just bop one on somebody. You know what I am saying? 22:15 SM: Yep. 22:18 JS: That was a lasting result of that. And they say we had something to do with Watergate. Because you know because Watergate was about removing their wiretaps. 22:32 SM: Right. 22:33 JS: My case was decided on a Friday afternoon in the Supreme Court. Justice Rehnquist had just been appointed from the Nixon so-called Justice Department to the Supreme Court. He had recused himself from the case because he had been one of the architects of the warrantless wiretap. 22:53 SM: Oh my God. 22:54 JS: Well they presume that (they decided my case on Friday, but they did not announce it until Monday) and they presume that Justice Rehnquist called the Nixon-Mitchell office and told them that they had lost in the Supreme Court eight to nothing, and that if they had any wiretaps, they'd better get them out by Monday so they could say that they did not have any. 23:21 SM: Wow. 23:21 JS: And that was the Saturday of the Watergate break in. 23:24 SM: Unbelievable! Well that is historic. [laughs] Crazy, huh? Yeah, that is historic! 23:30 JS: Yeah. That is what they say. There is no way to know. But that is what they say. 23:35 SM: Yeah. Were you in the courtroom when, when they were doing their legal arguing? Weinglass? 23:43 JS: Yeah I was there in the Supreme Court. Yes. That was a thrill. And the great Bill Bender argued our case. The nation's leading constitutional, leftwing constitutional scholar. He argued our case. Another great part of it was that the Solicitor General of the United States Erwin Griswold refused to argue Nixon's case because it was so full of shit. [laughs] 24:14 SM: Everything Nixon did was that way mostly. [laughs] 24:17 JS: So in the Supreme Court it ended up that this, one of those, um, criminals from Arizona, I think it was Robert Martian. One of those guys. Part of that Hauldeman-Ehrlichman axis. They had to argue the case and they were [inaudible] the Supreme Court ripped him to shreds. 24:25 SM: Oh my god. Wow. 24:39 JS: Yeah, I was so thrilled. [laughs] 24:43 SM: Well, that particular event where they all came together; the activists and the musicians and so forth. I mean you had, you know, Rennie Davis was there. 24:52 JS: Well, that was what we did see, we were they White Panther Party. We had the MC5. We were associated with the Stooges and really fifty other bands in Detroit and Ann Arbor. 25:06 SM: Wow. 25:07 JS: This is what we did. 25:08 SM: Now this is where I would like you to give a little more detail because I, the MC5, I have some people at Kent State, some former students there who were big MC5 fans, could you talk about MC5 and their influence? The years that you had them as their manager and just talk about all these bands you are talking about in Detroit? Your life is fascinating. 25:32 JS: Ha! 25:32 MS: No! It is. I mean, it is! You know, all the different categories from being a poet, a musician, a writer. Radio, having your own radio shows, a manager of a rock band, you write! And what you did with the underground newspapers. I mean, your life is amazing. 25:54 JS: Well thanks. I was inspired by Allen Ginsburg, Jack Kerouac, Ed Sanders, Amir Braka. 26:02 SM: He cannot get any better than that. Because they are the Beats. 26:05 JS: That is where I come from. 26:07 SM: Yeah, we grew up on that. 26:08 JS: And then I took a lot of LSD. 26:11 SM: Yeah. How many trips did you have? 26:15 JS: I could not tell you that. 26:18 SM: Did you write your best poetry when you were on a trip or did just, you did not want to be on any kind of medicine at all when you when you wrote your poetry? 26:29 JS: I just take as it comes. 26:32 SM; But what? Now how did the MC5 come together? 26:39 JS: Well, they went to high school together in Lincoln Park, Michigan. 26:44 SM: And how did you become their manager? 26:48 JS: Well, I heard the band and I thought they were great and I became a huge fan and I saw them every time they played for a year, and then I became their manager. They needed someone to help them. 27:01 SM: Right. And the band was often categorized so that they were involved in issues caring about certain issues. They were more of a ̶ and they performed I believe in Chicago. 27:15 JS: Right. 27:16 SM: And just before that they went crazy there in the park. Describe that scene. 27:26 JS: Well, they played and then the police attacked the people in the park and we fled. 27:32 SM: I think I think that is when Rennie Davis gotten beaten over the head, I think. I know he said he was there. 27:38 JS: Well, Rennie Davis was in another part. See they also had the Democratic Convention. And that was father downtown than the park, you know. We were in Lincoln Park with the Yippies created this thing called the Festival of Life as an alternative to the Democratic Convention. We had the music and the poetry and the acid. The other people were conflicting with the Democratic Party and the Chicago police regularly for a week or so. 28:16 SM: Could you talk a little more detail about the festival? 28:18 JS: That was led by the SDS and by the mobilization against the war in Vietnam. We were led by the Yippies. 28:29 SM: Could you, in your own words describe a little bit more about the Festival of Life when we talk about the (19)68 Democratic Convention we all hear about the SDS and that group, the activist groups, and we know that Andy Hoffman was there and that there were some Yippies there but we do not really see the breakdown. 28:48 JS: No, no, no, we were not part of the protest at the convention we had our own event. 28:52 SM: Right. I know. But I do not think it is discussed that much. They always just talk about the 28:57 JS: Well, that is not our fault. I kind of discuss it now. 29:02 SM: Could you do it? Could you talk a little bit more about the Festival of Life? 29:08 JS: Yeah, it was a Yippie event created by Ed Sanders, Paul Krassner, Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin and others. I was in on the planning of that as well. It was, the idea was to put on a free concert in the park in Chicago in protest against the Democratic Party and not just the Democratic Party but what we called the 'death culture.' See the Democratic Party was carrying on the war in Vietnam. Full force at that time, full force. Now Lyndon Johnson had stepped down because he did not feel he would get reelected because he had [inaudible] this war so fiercely, which was true. And so Humphrey was running and he had been Vice President so he was just as bad. So we want anything to do with the Democrats. So we put on our own event because our whole outlook was alternative, alternative to the death culture. Then we were going to have this political conversation? We were going to have a free concert. All the bands in the hippie nation were supposed to play. The Jefferson Airplane, The Grateful Dead, they all got scared when they saw the people getting beat up by the police. So none of them came except for the MC5 we came from Detroit by car; and we played. We were determined to play. Fuck the police. 30:46 SM: How long did the MC5? Are they still performing? Or are they kind of broken up? 30:55 JS: They broke up in 1972, yep. I thought you were writing about the (19)60s. You do not know about the MC5? 31:03 SM: Yeah, I know, I got it right here. 31:05 JS: They were the greatest band of the (19)60s. [laughs] 31:09 SM: But I did not know that they had all dispersed and gone separate ways. 31:13 JS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need to read the book that Wayne Kramer recently published called The Hard Stuff. Then you should talk to Wayne Kramer, the lead guitarist in the MC5. 31:33 SM: The White Panther Party was formed because it was the Black Panthers had asked you to be a counter another support group for their cause correct me? 31:48 JS: No, no, no. No they put out a; white people were asking what they could do to further the cause of the Black Panther Party and Bobby Seale and Huey Newton said you should start a White Panther Party. So we did that. We responded to that. We thought that was a good idea. 32:08 SM: Did you have a lot? 32:09 JS: They said, our real problem is the white people. So somebody else needs to have a radical party to organize white people in our support. And in support of socialism. Because first of all, the Black Panther Party was a democratic socialist organization. 32:28 SM: Again, the White Panther Party existed from (19)68 to (19)80? 32:32 JS: (19)80? I do not know anything about that. 32:38 SM: I thought the length of time that the party was together was for twelve years. The Black, I mean, I am not talking about Black Panthers; the white, the White Panther Party was to kind of 32:49 JS: No, we changed it to the Rainbow People's Party in 1971. So for us, it went from (19)68 to (19)71. Some other people in San Francisco kept a White Panther Party, but it was not us. 33:07 SM: Now you were um, you lived in the United States, and then you moved to Amsterdam, as well, you have; 33:14 JS: Oh, you are jumping ahead quite a bit, yeah. 33:16 SM: I am going all over the place. Yeah. I have got so much here on your life. But I wanted to talk about that because I think it is when I think of Amsterdam, I think of jazz. 33:29 JS: Jazz? 33:30 SM: Yeah. A lot of jazz musicians go to Amsterdam. It is a very creative city. It is a very progressive city. 33:36 JS: Yeah. But not music or art. What progressive is that they keep your hands off of you. But their art is terrible and so is there music. 33:48 SM: Yeah, I know jazz musicians like Amsterdam because they feel like 33:52 JS: Well, they like to hear them play so they got gigs there you know? 33:55 SM: Right. 33:56 JS: And it is a great place to live, but not so many live there. Many more live in Paris or Copenhagen. 34:04 SM: You were involved in working with underground newspapers too. 34:09 JS: Correct. 34:09 SM: I am reading a book right now on the history of the underground newspapers. 34:13 JS: Oh wow. 34:14 SM: And their impact on the on the Vietnam War and a lot of other causes but particularly the Vietnam War. 34:24 JS: Do they have anything about the [inaudible]? 34:26 SM: I have only, it was a book written in 1993. It cost me fifty dollars I am just start starting to read it. And Tony Auth the cartoonist for the piece, the late cartoonist from the Philadelphia Inquirer is in it quite a bit too, because he did a lot of underground. 34:45 JS: Who was that? 34:45 SM: Tony Auth. 34:48 JS: I do not know him. 34:49 SM: Yeah, he was in the Philadelphia Inquirer for many years be came from Los Angeles. 34:52 JS: Oh, oh. No wonder. 34:53 SM: But he talked a lot about it, but you worked with the underground newspapers and you have been involved with them. 35:01 JS: How you contribute is, you did not get paid. It was not like working for them. 35:06 SM: They are important. 35:07 JS: Yeah, I know, but the important part was that people did it because they felt this information should be disseminated, not because they were getting paid. And they were not owned by anybody they were collectively owned. It is a beautiful thing. 35:28 SM: Well. 35:29 JS: Totally the opposite of the journalism that they have now. 35:32 SM: Exactly. I remember being in three different universities and I got my news from them. 35:38 JS: Right. 35:39 SM: And I still got a lot of them that I kept and never threw them away. 35:42 JS: Right. And you will not find one today. Will you? 35:45 SM: No, I go on the campus today and I do not see anything. But in terms of their influence during that period of time, we are talking about the (19)60s and (19)70s when so much was happening. They were vital, were not they? To me they were vital. 35:58 JS: Vital. Rock and roll, underground newspapers and underground radio. You know then, we did not have no internet. 36:09 SM: That is right. 36:11 JS: You know and to communicate you had to write up something, type it on a mimeograph, run it up on the mimeograph, fold them up, buy the envelopes, buy the stamps. Put them in envelopes, write the address, send them and three days later they get the message. So that was the [inaudible] in which you operated. So the underground paper, they came out every week, right? Or every other week at worst. That is the way that you found out what was going on. 36:43 SM: I got to interview Vietnam vets who said that were in their basic training, they found out a lot about the Vietnam War through reading underground newspapers. 36:54 JS: Yeah, because the army was not going to tell them. 36:56 SM: No. 36:58 JS: They were just cannon fodder to them. 37:01 SM: This is when they were doing their six weeks basic training. 37:03 JS: Underground papers had a great role in creating the resistance within the armed forces, which became a decisive factor. It really was marked most prominently by the great testimonial of John Kerry, a Naval lieutenant who said this is all horseshit. 37:28 SM: Right. Yeah. 37:30 JS: To me, that was a turning point. 37:33 SM: That was amazing. 37:34 JS: In ending the war. 37:36 SM: Well I interviewed Bobby Moeller, earlier today, and we were going into detail about that particular time that he went before the Foreign Relations Committee with Senator Fulbright. And that was historic and to add that some of the atrocities and then there was a book written I think, about 2003 by Mark Turce and it talks about the atrocities in Vietnam and it's just; that were hidden for many, many years by the government and then he was able to find them. So uh. 38:10 JS: Well the whole thing was an atrocity from beginning to end. You know, these are people that are farming rice in their paddies. They were not at war when nobody except for the dictators of South Vietnam who were backed by the US. They were not doing nothing to nobody. They never came here. We killed hundreds of thousands of people and then the bomb, you know, horrible, horrible. Every part of it was horrible. It was inhuman. 38:44 SM: Yeah. 38:45 JS: And they lied about it from beginning to end. 38:49 SM: Yeah. The whole (19)60s when you think about it. It went; to me, the watershed event was the Vietnam War and civil rights obviously is another one. 39:02 JS: Yeah, the twins. 39:03 SM: Yeah the twins and 39:04 JS: And then the Women's Movement came up. And then the Gay Movement. 39:08 SM: Right. That was in (19)69. 39:11 JS: Yeah. 39:12 SM: Yeah. It's like this whole, you know, you are involved in this period when all these groups are coming to, you know, the various causes they all we had the anti-war movement and of course, we know about the civil rights movement and with a women's movement and the gay and lesbian movement with the Chicano movement. I have been interviewing some Asian Americans who were a lot older, there was a movement in that particular group. We do not hear about too much. 39:41 JS: Yeah, they had the records expunged from when they locked him up in the concentration camps during World War II. 39:48 SM: Yes, yes, yes and you have got doctor Tekaki talking all about that and some of his books, and certainly the history of the Native Americans is another one. 40:00 JS: Yeah. 40:01 SM: This all kind of comes together in the (19)60s and in the, in the (19)70s, and you are involved in a lot! 40:08 JS: Well, you see, once they assassinated their own president, that kind of pulled covers; it started to pull the ̶ you know, that was the end of the illusion that this was all on the up and up. They killed, they assassinated the president! 40:26 SM: Yes. 40:26 JS: They did not like his policies, they got rid of them. You know, that was the beginning of the end. 40:32 SM: Did we ever have an Age of Innocence even before he was killed? 40:36 JS: Oh, I do not know what you mean by we ̶ 40:39 SM: America, this nation. 40:41 JS: There is no such thing. America, you know, there is black people. There's white people, there's rural people that do not, there's no such thing as that. It is all a myth. We just all live in the same piece of land. An Age of Innocence, you know they came over here and stole this country from the people that lived here and assassinated them in huge numbers and not only assassinated them but removed their way of life. Killed off the plants and the animals that they ate. That is the innocent White people. The poor white people. Rotten motherfuckers. 41:22 SM: The word that has been used a lot; we are that we are a very xenophobic nation. Afraid. 41:31 JS: I am not part of no 'we' like that. I am nothing like any of that. That is not my 'we'. I am a we with those who were born here. I am an American, but I do not subscribe to all of that horseshit. 41:47 SM: When you look at the term, the 'Yippies' and the 'hippies', and how the anti-war movement and we are all the people for that period, they kept talking about Theodore Roszack wrote that great book The Making of a Counterculture that was kind of required reading on college campuses in the early (19)70s. To you, what is the definition of a counterculture? 42:11 JS: That is never a term that I use. I thought that guy was totally full of shit. Roszak. 42:18 SM: Yeah. 42:19 JS: They made it required reading on campus so that they would all get the wrong idea. Course, the next idea they got on campus was that history was over. [laughs] So you see where they were trying to lead the young people in their educational facilities? 42:38 SM: Well, you know, we learn more about history by reading Howard Zinn, because Howard Zinn, because Howard Zinn had an alternative view. 42:43 JS: Exactly. Umberto Eco. [laughs] 42:50 SM: Yeah, you know, I actually had a chance to meet him. He was an interesting man. 42:56 JS: I will bet. He is a good writer! I like his novels. 43:01 SM: Well, his history was unbelievable too and so, one of the things here I wanted to: what, of all the movements you have been connected to the course, several movements in your own way but, what of all the movements that took place in the (19)60s and (19)70s how important was the anti-war movement in ending the war? There has been a lot of discussion of this in books and scholarly writing. 43:34 JS: Well, what do they say? The people who were waging the war did not end it. They kept it on as long as they possibly could. It was us that ended it. 43:46 SM: Oftentimes the criticism is the college students, the alternative view is that the college students did not end the war in Vietnam. Maybe the general protesters might have been but there was a lot of criticism of college students I do not know if you had that same feeling. 44:04 JS: What? I do not I do not care what anybody thinks okay the criticism these fucking idiots means nothing to me. There was what happened and then there was what did not happen or whatever they say, they are nuts! Plus, they got agendas of their own! They are capitalists. 44:24 SM: Why did we lose that war? In your opinion. 44:28 JS: We? I won! 44:31 SM: I am not going to say 'we' anymore. 44:32 JS: I was on the side of the Viet Cong! We won! Why did America lose it? Because they were on the wrong side. They were on the wrong side of history and they were on the wrong side in the war. They were wrong. They were evil, vicious, you know invaders. 44:59 SM: They certainly did not understand 45:00 JS: Bombers. 45:01 SM: They did not understand the culture they were going into ̶ 45:04 JS: Well, they understood well enough that it was different from ours and needed to be eradicated. They used the same shit they used on the Indians. They destroyed the villages and tried to destroy their livelihood. You know, they are just totally vicious. That is the way white people are, it is what they are all about. You know, yeah, the European Union now, I am a big fan of European Union, cause seven years ago, these people were bombing each other's cities. Well, now they got people rising up in all these countries that want to go back to that. They are a fucking idiots. 45:48 SM: I love your honesty. I love your honesty. 45:52 JS: That is all I got. 45:52 SM: Do that know that? I love that that I like about you and all the people I have been interviewing is I love hearing their points of view. Because they are all they are all valid. 46:03 JS: And you will not be hearing them on TV. [laughs] 46:08 SM: No you will not. You will not. Well, I want to get back to the event that happens every year that I believe we just came from, which is the Hash Bash. The Hash Bash. 46:21 JS: Hash Bash, first Saturday in April. Yeah. 46:24 SM: Now that has been happening since 1971? When did when it first start? 46:29 JS: First Hash Bash was (19)72. We had a gathering in (19)71 but it was to protest my imprisonment. In (19)72, I was already out. (19)72, see when my case, came to the Supreme Court and they overthrew the marijuana laws, they would passed a new one, but it did not take effect for three weeks between March 9th and March 31st in (19)72, they did not have a marijuana law in Michigan at all. So we took full advantage of that we make quite a bit of hay with that. And then we were going to put it back into effect on April Fool's Day, we thought the idea would be to have an event in the middle of the campus to stick our middle finger up and say fuck you we are not going to pay any more attention to the new law than we did to the old law because you are still wrong. There should not be any law. And now that is what we have now but it took place last year, fifty years later, you see. 46:46 SM: Wow. Fifty. And how many people come to the event every year? 47:38 JS: Thousands. 47:40 SM: And look, I am going to try to make it next year. What is the date is eight? What is it? 47:45 JS: First Saturday in April. 47:49 SM: It is in Ann Arbor? 47:51 JS: Yes. 47:52 SM: I have been trying to make it. 47:54 JS: Cannot miss it. 47:56 SM: I am going to be certainly at Kent State next year. You are going to Kent State for the fiftieth? 48:00 JS: No. 48:01 SM: I am trying to try to make that. 48:05 JS: [laughs] They will probably shoot some people in their celebration of the fiftieth. The Government, Trump, you know. 48:14 SM: Yeah, a lot of things strange things are certainly happening now. I, one of the questions I have here is what in all the events and again, this is just your personal feeling. What was the watershed event in the 1960s? I said Vietnam War, but what do you feel is the watershed event and I preface this by saying that many Vietnam vets I say six Vietnam veterans, some well-known some not, have stated that the, they felt they had to be involved in the Vietnam War because it was the watershed event of their youth. 48:19 JS: I do not know. I do not know I find it impossible to reduce anything to one thing. It was a huge movement. 49:06 SM: Mm hmm. When you think of the hippies, hippies and the Yippies, and the SDS 'ers, and the even the American, the conservative student groups and everything, it was quite, it was quite a time when there are a lot of different groups involved in certain kinds of protests. I do not see that today. I do not see it anywhere really. 49:32 JS: Oh, they protest today, I mean, the political moment is pretty similar to the way it was that then, they just do not have hippies anymore. But they have protests all the time. 49:45 SM: But they have protests, but they are more like singular protests. For example, the women's groups are all going to be there. I do not see a lot of other groups beyond the women's movement. That has been a criticism of the gay and lesbian movement, even Martin Duberman's written about it. That the one concern he sees with the gay and lesbian. 49:46 JS: Ok wait a minute, now we are going back on the criticism. What are they doing? The critics? What is they are answer to the fucking uh, oppression of females? Other than criticism of the, groups that are doing something? 50:19 SM: Yeah, I think the crucial; the criticism was the ̶ that they are doing it singular and not in a unity with a lot of other. 50:25 JS: But can we follow their lead? Who are these people with all of the answers? Why cannot I sign up with them? 50:35 SM: Good point. Instead of being, in other words instead of being a critic you do it. You be the example. 50:46 JS: Well, I have been the example for years and years but so what? Why do I have to think about a critic? Who has a job and plenty of money in the bank and a house and a car and they are going to tell me what I am doing wrong or what somebody I believe in is doing wrong. I do not care about them. Fuck them. You know what I am saying? Every point we talk about, you start telling me about what the critics would say. I do not care about them. 51:17 SM: Maybe because I am, I guess, I read too much. 51:22 JS: I do not know. 51:22 SM: There are from books. 51:24 JS: I am a constant reader, I read from day to night, every day. But I have not got the wrong ideas. [laughs] 51:31 SM: You know, talking about you know, what are your favorite books from the (19)60s and (19)70s? 51:37 JS: Oh. 51:37 SM: You did not you did not like Roszack because of the making of the counterculture, but that is one of the ̶ that was one of the biggest selling books that there was. 51:45 JS: Well, that was one of the reasons that I did not like it. What do I want with a best seller? 51:50 SM: There was a cultural narcissism no? 51:52 JS: Best seller just means that more idiots fell for it. [laughter] That is not a criterion of goodness to me. 52:01 SM: That book if you ever had a chance to try and sit down read it was pretty hard to understand to. 52:07 JS: Well, because he did not have any idea what he was talking about. It is like that guy who writes about music who thinks he is so great Greil Marcus. They are just making that shit up. They do not know anything. 52:20 SM: Yeah, he, he did make money off it though, I will say. 52:23 JS: Well good for him, but what is that do for me? 52:27 SM: Nothing. 52:28 JS: Thanks. 52:32 SM: Today when we are looking at now again, I want to get back to the Hash Bash because what, when you have the venues and you have the events there that are planned Who, who, who plans the Hash Bash on an annual basis number one, and how do they break it down? Is it musical groups is it you know, speakers, you know, what is the Hash Bash? 52:57 JS: They must have a website where you can go to and see this stuff. 53:04 SM: Is it over several days? 53:05 JS: I am just a founder, you know, I go on I read a poem, I give a poem and then that is it. So they have speeches, I do not listen any of them. 53:17 SM: And they covered what subjects basically? Anything? 53:21 JS: I do not listen to them! 53:23 SM: Ok. [laughs] 53:26 JS: Probably telling you about marijuana, legalizing marijuana. I started the legalize marijuana movement in Michigan. I do not get to listen to anybody. I know they got what they are talking about from me. [laughs] 53:26 SM: I know that there was a gentleman in San Francisco that was really involved in trying to get this passed as well. I am not sure if he is still alive. But how many states now are there that have legalized marijuana? 53:57 JS: Quite a few. 53:58 SM: Yeah. Do you think do you see? 53:59 JS: See, I mean, when you talk about no movement, today marijuana smokers are very well organized group of democratically oriented people who passed the law. They register, they put it on the ballot and they vote for it. Nobody else does that. We do it. We have been doing it. That is why its legal. 54:24 SM: Do you see that in maybe fifteen or twenty years from now that all fifty states will be in unison? 54:31 JS: I hope so. For their sake. 54:34 SM: Yeah, because I work part time in a pharmacy and I see how we have people that are sick that are taking marijuana from the pharmacy. So ̶ 54:45 JS: Oh yeah? You are you supplying it? 54:46 SM: No, we it has been okayed by the doctor. And so we have we have it in the protective area of the pharmacy. 54:54 JS: But you have it though? 54:55 SM: Yes, we have it. 54:56 JS: Yeah. You know in Amsterdam they have medical marijuana. You have to go to a pharmacy and tell them what you want and then they have to go buy it from a coffee shop [laughs] they do not have it on the premises. Yeah, I got it. I got some just to see what the protocol was. 55:16 SM: Yeah, well, we have it under lock and key. 55:18 JS: You had to wait three days. 55:20 SM: We have it under lock and key. 55:23 JS: I will bet. 55:26 SM: But I, you know, I some of the other things here I got so many things I wanted to ask here 55:32 JS: Better do it now. 55:34 SM: The divisions that we see in America today are so terrible. Obviously this President has accentuated it. But um 55:43 JS: Well its racism. This has always been a racist country. This guy just brings it out because that is what he is getting elected on. He is getting elected because he is a creep. He is a, he is a capitalist pig. And he is a racist dog and they like that. 56:01 SM: Amazing though that ̶ 56:02 JS: And they were really pissed off that they had a black president that they had to bow to for eight years. And they almost a woman! These are Americans man, these are the motherfuckers that fight in our wars. [laughs] 56:16 SM: John, is not it amazing though when you think of everything that you have lived through, I have lived through that we have just experienced in our lives, that we are still dealing with this. This kind of crap in the year two thousand nineteen. 56:30 JS: Well, they will be dealing with it until they get rid of racism. You see? 56:34 SM: Yeah. Racism is what America is built on, it is what it is all about. You know that had these people were slaves for them for three hundred years. Three hundred years is more years then the country is alive. That is right. 56:49 JS: And they never said they were sorry. They have never given them the reparations. They keep treating them like they are inferior citizens. They do not have education or jobs for them. What do they expect? Shit. These people go around shooting people, Jesus Christ! They show them all these movies of people killing people all the time. They sell them any fucking gun they want. What do they think is going to happen? Guy goes to a shopping mall and shoots his sister! 57:19 SM: When you see when you see the TV that we grew up with in the 1950s, which was all about westerns and cowboys killing. 57:27 JS: And the police, the police were 57:29 SM: Yes. 57:30 JS: Do not you remember Sergeant Friday? 57:31 SM: Yes, yes, yes. 57:33 JS: Yeah. 57:34 SM: We saw these things and you know shooting and killing and all the other stuff and you kind of wonder well, what kind of effect might that have? When I said Age of Innocence I was referring more to the (19)50s but that was not an Age of Innocence. They were still hanging people in America. They were you know. 57:50 JS: They just came back from a war where they were shooting people in the face you know. 57:54 SM: Right. Yeah. It is a ̶ it is kind of sad. We are still in those kind of situations. 58:02 JS: Well, that is what we call [inaudible] ̶ 58:06 SM: Of your many deeds and accomplishments what are you most proud of? 58:13 JS: Wow. Whole thing. I like it all. 58:24 SM: This is uh, you know, you, I am, you are very good at this because you are proud of who you are. You are proud of who you are. 58:33 JS: I am. What I have done and proud of what I have done. 58:36 SM: Yeah. 58:38 JS: Well, I am just another human being filled with faults and [laughs] wrong doing you know. 58:46 SM: You probably never thought when you were in high school that you would end up doing all this stuff in your life. Did you? You know. 58:52 JS: Well I did not know anything about anything till I read "On the Road." 58:55 SM: Right? Right. Oh, yeah, Jack Kerouac. Oh yeah, I read that book. That is an unbelievable book. 59:01 JS: Yeah. 59:02 SM: Classic. 59:03 JS: Well it opened up a bigger world for me. I grew up in a small town. 59:10 SM: Yeah. Well, I tell you, we had five beat writers on our campus when I worked at Westchester. 59:16 JS: Oh that is cool! 59:17 SM: And we had the female writers and, Ann Waldman came. 59:22 JS: Oh wow! That is a great writer! 59:23 SM: Yeah Leroy Jones' wife. 59:27 JS: Oh Hettie! 59:28 SM: Hettie. Yeah. I interviewed Hettie for the project. 59:31 JS: Oh good. 59:31 SM: So she was she was there. Who else? We Ed Sanders. Ed Sanders came though because he knew the English professor who wrote a lot about the Beats. So Ed came, and we had another one. Well, we had about five of them all together. I did meet Allen Ginsburg though at Ohio State. 59:50 JS: That is good! 59:50 SM: And he was just, he is a, what a giant he is. 59:55 JS: Yeah, he is a great American. 59:58 SM: Now if you look at the people from (19)60s and (19)70s period who did, who do you admire? And who do you totally despise? 1:00:10 JS: I admired thousands of people. John Coltrane. He was God to me. Who did I despise? Richard M. Nixon and his whole gang of thugs. 1:00:32 SM: Is there anybody that you kind of dislike and like? I, you know that combination that mixture; that now one day you just cannot stand the guy or gal, and the next day you support them? Was there anybody in that medium, middle ground? 1:00:51 JS: Yeah, I used to think Eldridge Cleaver was great and then I thought he was an idiot. 1:01:01 SM: Yeah, he changed. There is no question about that. "Soul on Ice". Some of the slogans from that era too. Which of the slogans that you remember more than any other from the (19)60s and (19)70s? 1:01:16 JS: I do not know. 1:01:18 SM: One of them is from a Yippie. Pardon? 1:01:25 SM: One of them is from a Yippie. A friend of yours. Jerry Rubin "do not trust anybody over thirty". 1:01:32 JS: Well, things like that, we were wrong about a lot of things so it is hard to have an emotional connection with our ideas of that time. Because so many of them were wrong. 1:01:42 SM: What is amazing is he was twenty-nine when he said it! [laughs] He was thirty before he knew it. And then of course um, there are other ones as well. Yeah. Some of the people again that came to your VIP event in 1971, the John Sinclair Freedom Rally is just amazing. I am looking at the list of some of the names here. I know Pete, Bob Seeger was there. 1:01:54 JS: He was trying to warn them. Yeah. 1:02:16 SM: Phil Ochs was there. 1:02:18 JS: He was a local band, Bob Seeger. 1:02:21 SM: Right. 1:02:22 JS: At that time. 1:02:22 SM: Yep. 1:02:23 JS: Until (19)75. 1:02:26 SM: And then Ginsberg and Sanders were there. 1:02:28 JS: Phil Ochs was Jerry Rubin's best friend. 1:02:31 SM: Right. And we lost. You are correct. We lost a really fantastic person a great person in Paul Krassner. 1:02:39 JS: Yeah. 1:02:40 SM: I interviewed Paul a long time ago. He gave me a lot of names 1:02:45 JS: I will bet he did! He knew everything. 1:02:47 SM: And but he he'd be funny and he'd be funny one minute and dead serious next. 1:02:52 JS: Yeah. Yep. 1:02:53 SM: And I did not know he was ill. I had not known the story. 1:02:57 JS: Well he was eighty-seven or something. Jesus Christ. You have the right to be ill then. 1:03:04 SM: He did a lot of a lot of good things and a lot of people will remember him and he was memorialized on my Facebook page. People that I did not even know knew him, admired him. People that had never met him, admired him. So he, it's a big loss for that period. What were some of the um, you know, this whole thing do we learn from people? Lessons of life. What were the lessons that we hopefully learned from the (19)60s so that we will not repeat them again? 1:03:41 JS: I do not know, again you are talking about that we that I am not really a part of. 1:03:49 SM: That could be you. It's your thoughts on 1:03:52 JS: Well, I did not have to give anybody a joint. 1:03:55 SM: [laughs] Yeah, that is right. 1:04:00 JS: That is what I learned. 1:04:01 SM: Because you could go to jail for it. 1:04:04 JS: Correct and I did go, to prison. 1:04:07 SM: And, and is not it, unbelievable? The number of books right now being talked about how many people are in prison for reasons that they should not even be in prison? 1:04:19 JS: Well, yeah, that is what America is all about, prisons. 1:04:23 SM: It is true. 1:04:24 JS: We got more prisoners than anybody on earth. 1:04:28 SM: Yeah. 1:04:28 JS: It is a lucrative business. 1:04:31 SM: I agree. And, and it's and again, I would hope that someday one of our leaders would take a look at this issue in more greater detail and get some of those people out of jail. I mean, they are people in jail for selling marijuana to a friend at a rock concert. I mean, come on. You know, so ̶ 1:04:56 JS: Who do you think you are talking to? 1:04:57 SM: I know. I am going to get into the Vietnam. The, some basic, general questions with not 'we', 'i' things that you think about. When the, what was your thought on the way Vietnam veterans are treated upon the return from the Vietnam War which was pretty bad. 1:05:20 JS: Well, they still treat them that way. I think it is outrageous. 1:05:24 SM: I agree. And they were dying in massive numbers compared to World War II vets they were dying faster than they died. 1:05:33 JS: Well, they had more sophisticated weaponry and chemical warfare that they were exposed to. 1:05:38 SM: Yup. Used to be just mustard gas. Right. And Agent Orange is a, is a killer. 1:05:48 JS: Do not, do not forget Napalm. Do not forget you know, they are soaking these people with fire in their villages. You know, I feel bad for the Vietnamese veterans the way they are treated but on the other hand I think they are despicable for what they did to the people in Vietnam. And I do not hear them saying they were sorry, very often is they are mostly whining about themselves. But you see if they would have stayed here, they would not have had those things happen to them that is basically my bottom line. 1:06:22 SM: Do you agree that 1:06:25 JS: I say we tried to tell you not to go. 1:06:28 SM: Yup. 1:06:28 JS: You insisted on going so you got what you deserved, I thought. 1:06:33 SM: Some got drafted though. 1:06:34 JS: I hate to say it like that, but that is the way I feel. 1:06:35 SM: Some got drafted and could not get out of the draft which is, you kind of empathize. 1:06:36 JS: Well then you did not have to go and choke the motherfuckers. 1:06:43 SM: Right. 1:06:43 JS: You should take your medicine. 1:06:48 SM: Do you think that uh, I personally have a feeling that the people that served in the war, that did not commit atrocities that is, are heroes by simply serving their nation but then I also believe the anti-war 1:07:07 JS: Oh, what was the? What did they contribute to our nation? By fighting in Vietnam? What did we get out of that? 1:07:17 SM: Well, they did not get anything out of it. 1:07:19 JS: What did we get the people they were defending? Did the Vietnamese come into our bedrooms and cut our throats at night? 1:07:26 SM: Yes, yes. Yes, that is what, that is what I am getting at. 1:07:28 JS: I do not think so. 1:07:30 SM: A lot of the anti-war movement was about not only trying to make sure we did not send men over there to die, but also to save the lives of the Vietnamese citizenry. 1:07:42 JS: Of course. 1:07:42 SM: And to be caring about them. 1:07:44 JS: Humanitarians! 1:07:45 SM: Yes and, and I do not think we do enough talking about that particular aspect of the war. That two to three million died in that war. Many most of them are innocent citizens. Because of the saturation bombing they took on the airplanes and everything else. 1:08:04 JS: Right. 1:08:05 SM: So it is. 1:08:07 JS: What I am talking about is because they are still doing it to people in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan. You know, that is what they do. Now, they do not put the people on the ground so much they just are in Colorado and they send these things to bomb these people's villages. They are even uglier today than before and we got two or three wars going on at any given time. And they are endless. They have been in Afghanistan longer than they were in Vietnam. 1:08:41 SM: Right. 1:08:43 JS: Fighting a religious war. 1:08:46 SM: Now, going to another area here. You are still writing newspaper columns correct? On cannabis? 1:08:52 JS: Well, I write a marijuana column for Michigan Marijuana Reporter monthly magazine. 1:08:58 SM: Yes. And how long have you been doing that? 1:09:05 JS: Well, next week it will be my one hundred and second column. 1:09:10 SM: Wow. And you have already brought up the fact of the, you know, the marijuana, the people, the movement and everything. How many people do you think are involved in that movement right, we are now nationwide? 1:09:29 JS: Oh I have no idea. 1:09:32 SM: But you have got a big following, a lot of people are involved in this issue. 1:09:37 JS: Well, a lot of people smoke weed. 1:09:38 SM: And I just go into the store Barnes and Noble and I see a lot of a lot of magazines dealing with cannabis. 1:09:48 JS: A lot of people smoke weed. They have been at war with this for eighty years. 1:09:56 SM: And when you hear that 1:09:59 JS: And we are winning. 1:09:59 SM: The old slogan sex rock, sex, drugs and rock and roll that was what some people, that was how they defined the (19)60s and early (19)70s. What do you say? 1:09:59 JS: That is a bowdlerization of our slogan. "Walkin' low, dope and fucking in the streets." 1:10:09 SM: [laughs] Oh, wow. 1:10:21 JS: That is the original. 1:10:22 SM: Oh, okay. Huh? 1:10:24 JS: I invented that. 1:10:26 SM: And they are banning that and they are using the sex drugs and rock 'n roll huh? 1:10:31 JS: They have been for years. 1:10:35 SM: Now, things that people are now, as someone; I do not have any of your books and I would like to buy some if I could. I would pay for them and you can sign them because I'd like them to be at the research center from people. I definitely want to and I will email you on this another time. But I certainly want to have books written by you or articles that will be with your interview and a picture and everything like I do with the all the other people I am interviewing. But of all the books that you have written, which of all the books that you have written what is the one that you think people should read that they really want to know who you are 1:11:22 JS: [laughs] You know, I do not care if they know I am. That is not why I write. I write to say things. I am not into celebrity culture; means nothing to me. 1:11:34 SM: That is okay. But [inaudible] ̶ 1:11:38 JS: I do not care if they know who I am or not. 1:11:42 SM: But they will certainly remember you when they hear your commentary on things. 1:11:46 JS: That will be good. 1:11:47 SM: And that is what, that is what makes you very unique and very historic, in my view. It is, as I say, again, your involvement in so many things. It is like you are multitasking in life, and I also like the fact that you keep bringing the "I" in it. It's my life. It is my thoughts. It is my thought. I do not care what other people think. 1:12:12 JS: Well, that is all I got. 1:12:13 SM: Yeah, I guess my problem is I read too much and then I you hear this person says this and so it makes me think about what they are saying. That is why I asked the question. 1:12:22 JS: Being in an academic environment also. 1:12:24 SM: Yes. 1:12:26 JS: It is pretty stifling. That is what I think. 1:12:26 SM: So now you are obviously an activist. Now when you look at the categories the poet, the writer, the activist, the musician, the radio program, all these other. The um, is there one that stands out above other that you would not have become good in the others if it had not been for this one? Is it the fact that you. 1:12:53 JS: I do not know. I do not think like that I do not have any idea. 1:12:56 SM: You started out as a poet though. 1:12:59 JS: I am still a poet. 1:13:00 SM: Yeah, but you were a thinker, poets are thinkers. 1:13:04 JS: And I still am 1:13:05 SM: Yeah, yes, yes. Poets are thinkers and writers and ideas and ̶ 1:13:10 JS: That is what I do. 1:13:11 SM: Yeah, we will see that that is you and that is helped that think help you expand in this other world of activism and whatever the other categories we might be talking about here. 1:13:28 JS: I do not really get what you are saying. I am the same guy, whatever I am doing, I am the same guy. 1:13:34 SM: Okay, that is all I need. I do not think I have anything. Um, the, the foundation that you have right now the John Sinclair Foundation. 1:13:50 JS: Right. 1:13:51 SM: Now that is really there to protect all the things you have been involved in. Is that correct? So the copyright? 1:13:58 JS: Well, to preserve yes and extend into the future past my lifetime. 1:14:08 SM: That is excellent. Where is that located? Is that in Detroit? 1:14:12 JS: Yeah, it is in Detroit. It is not a physical thing. It is an idea. 1:14:18 SM: Okay. But when you are no longer around who is going to be protecting your stuff? 1:14:24 JS: Oh my board members. Okay very good. Yes, it includes all your books and I guess it your records and ̶ Well, I am in the process of transferring all my intellectual property ownership to the foundation. And also like, I am doing a speaking thing next week for a group of doctors and they are giving me a nice piece of money. I am donating all fees like that to my foundation because I do not need no money. 1:14:55 SM: Very good. 1:14:57 JS: I am on Social Security. 1:14:59 SM: What is your speech on? 1:15:01 JS: Marijuana. A pain conference of doctors. In Cincinnati. 1:15:10 SM: Wow. See, I know people who are dying of cancer and they need it. 1:15:17 JS: Well they need some Simpson Oil, yeah. 1:15:23 SM: We have a customer where I work who does get it and it is helping her survive. 1:15:31 JS: I know two guys that came back from their deathbed. Now, I know a lot of other people that take it since then. Because they proselytize. 1:15:41 SM: Right. 1:15:42 JS: It is good stuff. 1:15:47 SM: From the, from the (19)60s themselves who do you stay in touch with? Is there any of the; do you stay in touch with Bobby Seale and some of the other activists? 1:15:56 JS: Now I never really knew Bobby Seale. I have met him in recent years. But and I met David Hilliard in recent years, but you know, you usually see people when you go to their part of the country so I am in touch with a lot of people around here that were around in the (19)60s. 1:16:17 SM: You link up at all with I think Jeff Gibbs and the movie producers from the Flint area? 1:16:23 JS: You know, I went to their festival last week. I saw Jeff's movie "Planet of the Humans." 1:16:32 SM: How is it? 1:16:34 JS: Terrific. 1:16:38 SM: I got to go see it. 1:16:39 JS: I got to see Mike Moore. Me, Jeff and Mike all went to Davison high school. 1:16:49 SM: And, and Michael was a few years after you though, correct. 1:16:53 JS: They are both thirteen years younger than me. 1:16:55 SM: Right. Wow, they had a high school produce those three. Wow. 1:17:03 JS: [laughs] Amazing, huh? 1:17:03 SM: Yeah, but what is it about Flint? Now, not just the high school, but what is it about Flint that can create three people like you? 1:17:15 JS: Oh we were beyond Flint, we were in Davison, like you know, five thousand people when they were there. [laughs] A great place. It used to be called the vehicle city. When I was a kid in the fifties they had three shifts in the factories around the clock. They had Buick, Chevrolet, Fisher Body, AC spark plugs, Delco batteries, they had all kinds of factories. Powerful little place. 1:17:53 SM: Well Michael Moore's movies have certainly had an impact on people. 1:17:57 JS: Oh yeah, if you had ten Michael Moore’s this would be a different country. 1:18:00 SM: I agree. And he is and he is got a movie, he is probably got another movie in mind he is one after another. 1:18:07 JS: I am sure he does. Well, he edited this one with Jeff. 1:18:10 SM: Right. 1:18:14 JS: He was saying how much fun he had doing some hands on editing because he does not get to edit his own. [laughs] 1:18:24 SM: I guess when since a lot of what I am talking about is the era you grew up in and the America that you grew up in. I am going to say the 1950s (19)60s, (19)70s and (19)80s. And then we got the (19)90s and now. But people our age, those are the ̶ those are the formative years. When you think about those formative years, and you think about America, and you think of what I know you have you have some very negative things to say but what do you think what do you say to the people that are listening to this? When you look at those forty years of post war, say post World War II America and right through to Ronald Reagan, what do you say? What do you say about that? 1:19:13 JS: Well, it is better than post Reagan. You know the ugliness of today started with Reagan. Although Trump makes Reagan look like Socrates. 1:19:32 SM: Now that is a quote. 1:19:34 JS: And he was a stupid motherfucker and a terrible actor. 1:19:40 SM: Yeah, one of the things will always we will never forget about Ronald Reagan is his insensitivity towards people with AIDS. 1:19:48 JS: Well, anybody that was not white and straight. This just came forward in one of his racist conversations with Nixon, just in the news this week. 1:20:05 SM: When would you say that? In the (19)60s and (19)70s, we were taking many steps forward in the positive, trying to get rid of racism, sexism and homophobia. So we take two steps. 1:20:17 JS: Well, we were you know, the opposition was but the government and the establishment was opposing every step of the way. And they still are. Because you see they are the problem. This is their world, that 1 percent that rules all of this, it is their fault. [laughs] Until you deal with them, it is going to keep getting worse and worse and worse. 1:20:43 SM: [inaudible] 1:20:44 JS: They own everything. 1:20:45 SM: What I was going to say was ̶ 1:20:46 JS: They own every newspaper, every TV station, every movie, every record, they own everything. 1:20:54 SM: Well, when you consider the 2 percent of the population makes more than the 80 percent of the rest of the population that says something right there. 1:21:22 JS: Yeah, not very eloquently. 1:21:22 SM: The thing I am really getting at is that back then there was a perception that we were making two steps forward for every step backward now, some other thoughts that were for every step forward we are taking two steps backward. Is that a good description? 1:21:26 JS: I do not know. I know this asshole came in there and everything [inaudible] that the president did that was positive, he dismantled every bit of it. 1:21:34 SM: Right. 1:21:35 JS: What do you call that? That is a lot more than two steps backwards. 1:21:40 SM: You are right. 1:21:42 JS: When you put someone like Betsy DeVos in charge of the Education Department that is like a mile backwards. 1:21:53 SM: What would be your final thoughts on the (19)60s? Just your overall final thoughts on the (19)60s. The era that you say is from 1960 to (19)70? Not on, that is. 1:22:07 JS: Well that is the (19)60s, yeah. 1:22:10 SM: Yeah. Well, just give some adjectives to your final thoughts on that ten years here in America? 1:22:22 JS: I do not know. I do not think that way. I do not know what you want me to say. 1:22:29 SM: Any, any if you looked if you took the whole ten years, what would you say to someone? This is? This is what the ten years was about. 1:22:38 JS: I would not. 1:22:43 SM: So basically what you are saying is that everybody has their own thoughts, and it is the context. 1:22:48 JS: Correct. 1:22:48 SM: It is their context, not your context. 1:22:52 JS: Well, I mean, I do not think about it like that. It was a period in life you know, I have lived almost eight decades. They were all interesting. They were all different. What I did was different and in some ways the same but that ten years it was fun that is the way I look at it. It was fun and the ̶ I ended up in prison. 1:23:22 SM: And you grew from that, obviously, that experience really helped shape you. 1:23:28 JS: Well what else could I do? You live through it or you commit suicide. There is only two ways. 1:23:35 SM: Well you went in there, and then Supreme Court decision. I mean, the impact! That never happened. 1:23:41 JS: But that did not have anything to do with my jail sentence. That was a whole different case. You mean the US Supreme Court. 1:23:49 SM: Yes, yes. 1:23:51 JS: No, that was a whole different case. 1:23:52 SM: Right. 1:23:53 JS: That did not have anything to do with marijuana. I got nine and a half to ten years for possession of two marijuana cigarettes. 1:24:02 SM: Which was ridiculous. 1:24:05 JS: But that is what it was. 1:24:06 SM: It was outlandish and that is why everybody came to your support and the song and everything else. 1:24:11 JS: Right. 1:24:13 SM: And lastly, you would never; I do not think you would ever. Did you ever meet John Lennon? 1:24:19 JS: Sure. 1:24:21 SM: What was it like to meet him? What are your thoughts on him? 1:24:25 JS: Like meeting other male human being. 1:24:30 SM: Of course he was taken from us in 1980. 1:24:33 JS: Yeah. 1:24:38 SM: And from what I have read, is the reason why the Mr. Hoover in the whatever the FBI started getting on his case, when he started doing the song, John Sinclair or something like that in the protests. 1:24:53 JS: They did what now? 1:24:55 SM: I have read in the, in some books that when that concert happened or in that concert where he [together] sang the song, where he sang the song and Yoko's right by his side, that may have been the impetus for the CIA and Mr. Hoover or of course, he is FBI, I should say ̶ 1:25:15 JS: I was also the fault of that asshole senator Helms. 1:25:18 SM: Right. 1:25:21 JS: He wrote to J. Edgar Hoover that this guy in the Beatles was causing trouble and J. Edgar Hoover wanted to know: who were the Beatles. 1:25:29 SM: Yup. Yup. Any final thoughts you want to say on anything? 1:25:37 JS: No. I am not ready to quit. 1:25:41 SM: Just keep going. I want to meet you in person. 1:25:44 JS: Well you have to come to Detroit right now. 1:25:47 SM: Now what I am going to do is I am going to try to come in next 1:25:49 JS: I will be in Cincinnati next Friday. 1:25:52 SM: I cannot do that but you will be at the event next year, will not you? 1:25:57 JS: Which one? 1:25:58 SM: The anniversary of the event we were talking about, the one in April. 1:26:09 JS: Oh, Hash Bash. I go every year. 1:26:13 SM: Well, that, that is where I am going to try to make it next year. 1:26:15 JS: Okay. 1:26:16 SM: Because I know a couple of people that I have interviewed and they are your friends and so they gave me your name and in so I just I would like to meet you because I would like to meet you because you are an activist. 1:26:30 JS: Well, God willing, I will be there. 1:26:32 SM: Yep. But let me just say, I will close with this. We will send you the university, we will send you a copy of this. It will be sent to your email address, I believe? 1:26:43 JS: Yeah. 1:26:44 SM: And they will send it to you and then you have to listen to it to approve it. And then then it will be approved and then it will be used for research and scholarship here at the Binghamton University with the other two hundred, two hundred seventy five other people I have interviewed. 1:27:00 JS: Good. 1:27:00 SM: In the archives, so people and we got to get a good picture of you. And I want your books and I will email you so that if there is books that you have that I can purchase from you, I will pay you and if you could sign them so they will be at the university with your interview. 1:27:15 JS: Will do. 1:27:17 SM: And, John, I want to thank you for being honest and direct, and being who you are. And, and when I had those melodramatic pauses it was because, man, this man knows what he wants. He knows he knows. He knows what he believes in. And that is, I like that in people. I like that in people. And I think and young people need to know that they are in control of their lives. 1:27:44 JS: Yeah, that is what you got to find out. 1:27:47 SM: You got to you got to believe in something too. So you have a great day. 1:27:52 JS: Thanks. Good luck. 1:27:53 SM: Thank you. Yep. Thank you. Bye now. 1:27:55 JS: Bye. (End of Interview) Subject LCSH Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Political activists--United States; Musicians; Sinclair, John--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Sinclair