88 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/caa543c05169d9bdab41084b0b5b7e6e.mp3 fe72dd8dd104914af745b8e6a8fb8a37 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-03-01 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Paula Baxter Year of Graduation 1975 Biographical Text Paula is a practicing design historian. She is the author of three books on Native American jewelry, along with numerous magazine articles on American Indian arts and design. Before that, she was a professor in the humanities at Berkeley College in Westchester County, New York. Previously she worked as an art librarian and curator at the New York Public Library for 22 years. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni living in Phoenix, AZ; Harpur College – Alumni in Library Science; Harpur College – Alumni in Art &amp; Design. 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If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Paula Baxter Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 1 March 2019 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Now we are live. PB: 00:02 Okay. Hi, I am Paula Baxter. I graduated from Binghamton in 1975 I stayed on for two more years and got a master's in 1977. We are sitting in my backyard in Scottsdale, Arizona, and I am at this point, retired from the New York Public Library, but I am also a former adjunct professor and a professional writer, and I am working on the magnum opus of my career at this moment. I am the daughter of a man who took a long time to become a college professor. My dad was in World War Two. He was one of those 16-year-old who lied about his age and went off, and he spent three years in the South Pacific. He came home, he went to NYU on the GI Bill, and he first worked as a liquor salesman, but he wanted to teach first high school and then college. This meant my childhood involved a lot of moving around, and we finally ended up by junior high school in Oneonta, New York, upstate, where he was a professor of Spanish at the college here at Oneonta State. He did not have his PhD, however, he had a master's from University of New Mexico, where we lived for a couple years in the early (19)60s. And he very slowly- he liked to joke that he was the world's longest running PhD candidate, but there were many more, and he went to Binghamton. And so, Binghamton was firmly lodged in my mind as a place to go. I did; however, I was the only child I did not like Oneonta to grow up in. I did not have a good time. There was illness in my family. Only child students were very cliquey and laugh at me now, but one of the reasons why I wanted to go to Binghamton was that none of my classmates in high school whatsoever, planned to go to Binghamton. And when you ask these kids why, they said, too many drugs. So luckily for me, I ignored them and went to Binghamton and became a real person. IG: 02:15 Okay, so that is wonderful, a wonderful introduction. We will explore how you became a real person in Binghamton. Okay, so what were some of your first impressions of the college, Harpur College, and when did you arrive there? PB: 02:39 Yeah, I arrived in January of 1973 I had graduated a semester early from high school, and Binghamton had accepted me, but they had deferred me for a year, and this is very embarrassing, but I could not pass 11th grade math. I blame this inability to do math entirely on the fact that I moved around a lot as a kid, and every time I arrived in a new school system, they were doing a different form of math. They were very sympathetic at Binghamton because my English, my language and my history grades were top of the line, high region scores also, but that poor old math problem dragged my GPA down, so they had me go to Oneonta State for a year, where I did very well and got my feet, let us say, and arrived at Binghamton in January, 1973 and my first impression walking through the Student Union and smelling the pot. [laughter] IG: 03:41 That is a great that is a great sensory image. And so how did you respond to that? Did you- PB: 03:50 Did not bother me in the slightest. I was assigned to it this time. It was pretty new College in the Woods for my dorm residents, and the dorms were nice. They were new and fun, and I did not have the world's greatest roommates, but that all got sorted out initially, and I was overwhelmed. It was huge. And the first thing that came in very strongly to me is that I for the first time in my life being a sheltered Wasp who received her letter from the DAR at age 18. I was a minority, because a large majority of the students there were from down state, New York or the Metro New York area, and they were Jewish, and so here I was a little Wasp girl in the middle of this large college he had a kosher kitchen in the student union, which I found rather amazing, and you kind of could not miss the ambient tea. But you know what? It turned out to be wonderful. And I credit Binghamton for teaching me how to enjoy and coexist and live with diversity. And there were plenty of other upstate students there, somehow, we all found each other. And what was a very fascinating thing is that we integrated well into our fellow students’ lifestyles. And many times, when we made buddies, a couple of us would be upstate non-Jews, and then we would have one or two Jews in our in our little group. IG: 05:20 So, but the diversity was largely upstate, downstate Jewish- PB: 05:25 Right at this time, there was very small black--I did know a few black students and very small Asian. I knew one, and ironically, that was not unlike Oneonta, where I went to high school with no black, or I went to high school with no ethnic students at all, and there were three Jewish families in town, so I had had a very sheltered existence in terms of the world at Oneonta get to Binghamton, and it is a whole other ball game. IG: 05:57 So how do you remember, what are your first impression of the campus physically? I mean, did you, I mean, you are from upstate New York, so- PB: 06:09 It was much bigger than Oneonta. The architecture was very diverse, which I found interesting. At Binghamton, things were built at different times. As I said, I went into new dorms, but they had an older residential area called Dickerson, and there were lots of different campus buildings that were all architecturally different. It was a hodgepodge. There were nice outdoor sculptures, and there was a quad, and there was the library, which I gravitated to at once because I lived at my library in Oneonta, at the town library, which was a nice old library. IG: 06:47 Can you describe the library for us in the early (19)70s? What was that like? PB: 06:53 I am trying to remember. It was not as it is now. It was largely floor by floor on a lateral rectangular layout, but there were some underground areas that were reached by bridges, and the art library was down in an underground part of the library that had its own spaces, shared with the music division. And so architecturally was interesting, a little foreign. You have to remember, this is the pre computer age. The only machinery we had there were microfilm machines and the early photocopiers, which always seemed to break down every five minutes. IG: 07:34 But you had slides. I mean, we will talk [crosstalk] we will talk about that. And was the art museum- PB: 07:44 That was active. It was over in the building. It was on the quad. I think I cannot remember what they called the building. There are things there I am stubbornly forgetting. But it had the large statue of Pegasus on it, which was a big joke about Pegasus. And we shared quarters. The art department was there. The first thing I have to tell you, however, is I did not go right to the art department. I came in in (19)73 planning to be an archeologist. So, I was an anthropology major. And I really do not they were in separate buildings, and I do not remember much about them, except for the physical Anthro lab. IG: 08:21 What drew you to archeology? PB: 08:24 Okay, this is an interesting story. It was Native American. I wanted to be at that time Binghamton's degree was called the anthropology of the North American Indian. I wanted to be a field archeologist. I did my field work in my first at the end of my first year in Binghamton, and we discovered that I could not work in the field. I had a million allergies, and I was a bug magnet, and they would and we, there might be 25 of us on the dig, and none of them would get bit, and I would be bit to the point that I was bloody. The professors, the field supervisors, they told me, do not shower, do not use soap, do not use shampoo. I did all those things, and at the end of the term, they said to me, “You just cannot do field work.” And I felt like my heart was broken, but-but because they were intellectually astute at Binghamton and the professors in anthropology, not one of whom do I remember their names, by the way, but they were good. They recommended I look at the Art History program, and I did, and I was welcomed in. And the professors were top of the line. They were all refugees from Ivy League, and many of them left after I finished my master's, to go back to Ivy League, and that is what I did. I ended up taking an art history BA and MA. IG: 09:52 And what drew you to Native American culture? PB: 09:59 We had a Native American in our family that we did not know anything about. IG: 10:04 A relative? PB: 10:04 A relative, you have to remember this is from the end of the 19th, beginning of the 20th century. You have to understand that my mom and dad's family grew up upstate New York, rural, and they were prejudiced, like many people, and they attempted to hide the identity of this relative, and I became very intrigued by that. I found photos and I found data, and I was only able to determine that he was a Seneca Indian whose family were wiped out by a typhus-typhus epidemic in the early 1900s and he was adopted by a Baptist missionary family whose last name was Baxter. How interesting. And they hid his identity, so we had the- my mother had an interest in this, even though it was not her family, it was my father's. We had virtually no information about him. This is my problem here. [coughs] But anyway- IG: 11:08 He has been a great grand uncle? PB: 11:12 Great grandfather, as far as and the other thing, however, you need to understand, because I did try to look into it to see if there was a connection that I could prove historically. Because, if you may not know, in the United States, Indian tribes are regulated by the blood quantum level. They are the only ones that are of all minorities in the country. However, the Senecas are matrilineal, and this was a paternal relative, so I did not qualify. I am probably 1/64 Iroquois, Seneca, as they would say, how Dasani. I have no family- IG: 11:36 Have you done DNA test? PB: 11:47 No, I did not. I did not do that. So that was I felt with that background, I was officially interested. My mother was interested. She kept some books on anthropology around the house. But I also was interested in classical Greek and Rome. And a matter of fact, my MA thesis now my BA thesis was on Roman painting. So, you see, I sidelined the Native American interest in and it became a dual interest with first, initially classical Greece and Rome. And then I became, my master's was expertise in English and American 19th century decorative art, which led me ultimately to the jewelry. And I had very good training for that. IG: 12:42 Do you remember the professors you studied? PB: 12:44 I remember every one of my professors and-and then I want to mention one who was not one who was a professor, but not in art history, because I was mindful of your questions. My-my undergraduate advisor was Vincent Bruno, very distinguished expert in underwater archeology, and he had written a book on the Parthenon. And I wrote my master's thesis. Sorry, I am sorry. Ba thesis under him on Roman painting. But two of the professors were very good to me, and I did the dangerous thing. And when I stayed on for the MA, I switched over to- IG: 13:22 Why do you say the dangerous thing? PB: 13:23 Well, because you can alienate your professor. However, Bruno and I managed to stay friends, and I used to see him after college, I stayed in touch with these three professors I am mentioning now after college, who were delighted by the career turn I did, because they wanted me to stay on for a PhD, and I left them to go to Columbia University and get my MLS in art librarianship. But Kenneth Lindsay and Albert Boime were my MA advisors. Ken was very good to many students, mentored a lot of them. And Albert Boime is brilliant 19th century scholar, but lots of thing, and he was a Marxist art historian at that time. Marxist art history is a little old fashioned. You have to understand that I went to college so far back that a lot of the current methodologies did not develop. But Marxism is really social history, which is what I wanted, and that is the methodology I adopted. IG: 14:19 It is, it is, it is a critical lens through which to see art. PB: 14:25 How art is developed- IG: 14:27 Is Terry Eagleton, one of the Marxist I mean, he is a literature critic. PB: 14:34 Was he at Binghamton at the time? IG: 14:36 No, but he is a Marxist. PB: 14:39 Yeah. Al was Albert was probably, I was that way too. Yeah-yeah. And he wrote unabashedly, Marxi- Marxist theory. He is famous for a number of books. His most famous book is about the academy the in both England and France, the idea of the Parisian Academy in the 19th century. But he was very diverse. He wrote an article about the pre-Raphaelites, and had other interests as well. IG: 15:08 Okay. PB: 15:08 I was his grad assistant in, um [crosstalk] IG: 15:12 How-how was your thinking personality shaping through all of these courses, and the attention that you were getting in class, and um- PB: 15:24 I was growing and I was developing as a person. I was very repressed in high school. I was repressed because of my family situation. I actually had almost no boyfriends. I did not fit into all the cliques in Oneonta and kind of went from one to one to one, which we turned out to be my personality. I am the kind of person that breaks through all the cliques and is a friend and I and interestingly, my father was that way as a faculty member too. They could all be fighting with each other, but everybody liked my father, and he united them, etc. I could go from clique to clique in different group, perhaps because I was a solitary girl child, but as an adult, critical thinking adult, Binghamton was excellent for me, and the library did play a role, because I had always been bookish. I always read a lot. I am a speed reader, by the way, which is something we found out in high school, [crosstalk], and it is just a natural speed reader who retains and I still I read a lot of books. Now I read, I read all kinds of fiction and genre and nonfiction. So, the library answered a lot of needs, but socially, I bloomed and I developed. And probably the most critical thing of all, I should tell you, although we could save it for the end, is that I met the love of my life in Binghamton, although I was wise and kept him as a friend, and he was a friend, and we did not start dating and become a couple until I was in grad school. He graduated (19)76. And- IG: 16:54 A Grad school in Binghamton? PB: 16:56 No, he graduates undergraduate. He graduated in 1976 from Binghamton, English major with a Medieval Studies Certificate, and- IG: 17:04 So, he probably knows Kenneth Lindsay. PB: 17:07 Well, his professors were you will know him. I am blanking. If you gave me some names, I would know Charmack, Paul Charmack, Robin Oggins, and a few others whose names I have forgotten. He had a medieval certificate. He and I, next month, in February, in March, will be celebrating our 40th winning anniversary. IG: 17:33 What is his name? PB: 17:34 Barry Katzen. IG: 17:37 Well, congratulations. [crosstalk] PB: 17:39 There used to be a joke in my mother's time about how girls would go to college to get their Mrs. In the 70s, we totally spat upon that idea, and we are not into it. I naturally had to become a feminist at this time period, and that is partly why I kept my-my maiden name, but also because I had student loans due, and I just did not want to do the paperwork to change to a married name. But what was the point I was going to make? That it was a byproduct. He was a friend I made. And I also think that it was very good that we stayed friends for a couple years before we became romantically involved. I think that is why our marriage is endured. We know a number of couples in Binghamton who married while in college, and every one of those couples is divorced now. So, we waited, and it was very good. Now, one thing I wanted to say, because you want to talk about life experiences, and I have to laugh, Barry and I took a course together, an English course under Alvin Voss, who we were very fond of in the English Department. And it was on Shakespeare. And I used to, I remember I was naughty. I used to slip notes to Barry sometimes during class, but to this day, he and I will quote lines from Shakespeare. Will have memories of a line like when I was at NYPL and they were getting ready to have layoffs at the during the recession of 2008-9. I remembered a quote from As You Like It, when I was at home I was in a better place, or when I began writing magazine articles, I would remember brevity is the soul of wit and things of that nature. And I have to say to this day, Barry and I laughed, but we feel like that. Shakespeare class gave us an unknown at the time, but lasting connection. And of course, nowadays, well, Shakespeare can endure, and does endure, but it is funny and that we remember Voss and his lectures and his talks, whereas I have forgotten all my anthropology professors’ names, and not my art history, but a lot of other professors, and we both still remember that class. IG: 17:41 Why do you think that is? Why do you think that you have such a clear memory of that class with Barry and-and sort of, you know, a foggy memory of the other classes? PB: 18:27 I think Vos [Alvin Vos], who actually physically was kind of an unassuming, modest man, youngish at that time, spoke in a very sometimes dreamy tone of voice, very meaningful. And he had us read, not always the obvious parts from Shakespeare, but when he did, he would actually allow us into that world. And I remember that one of them we read, and that is still my favorite. And then as I began to understand that there were some possible Native American Connections in that, the tempest became my favorite play. And with the line, oh, Brave New World, this is the one where Miranda and prospect [crosstalk] exile, and it had to be his teaching, and it had to be our willingness to be receptive. And what is interesting is it was not a course that was really going to line up with what we did in our day to day lives, but it stayed with us. And I cannot explain it. I feel that there was an intellectual rigor about Binghamton's programs and all the courses that you took that was excellent, and my BA was hard earned, particularly my senior year. I should say another thing too, Barry and I were on pipe dream. So, we were connected with some of the politics on campus. We knew people in student government. Barry roomed with the President of the Student Council. And= IG: 21:50 What was his name, the- PB: 21:51 Bill Gordon. And so, we knew the student council. I do have to say, though, that compared to what was going on in the (19)60s, by (19)73, (19)74, (19)75 things were relatively calm, although there was one sit in over tuition increases that everybody was involved with. IG: 22:07 You were involved in the sit in? PB: 22:08 Well, I did not go right in, but Barry was and we knew people that were doing the sit in. We were on pipe dream. So, we sent our- IG: 22:16 Student newspaper? PB: 22:17 Yes, and I became Features Editor in (19)74 I should also say that is another connection. I was on my high school newspaper. I was on the Oneonta state newspaper. I guess I was thinking about journalism alongside or as a way of earning money, because anthropology and art history can be difficult to break into. And I got onto pipe dream. And Barry got onto pipe dream. He started out as a photographer for pipe dream, and eventually became managing editor. I was Features Editor there for the year of 1974 which is pretty cool. And I stepped out, though in (19)75 because I was a senior and my courses and my BA thesis were tough. I could not give the time and attention to pipe dream that I could previously. Barry became editor in chief of pipe dream in 1976. IG: 23:10 What kind of features article were you running at the time? Do you remember? PB: 23:14 I would report on concerts. I also had, I had writers under me. I would report on art exhibits, what was going on in the art museum, concerts, and even sometimes major concerts that came to Binghamton, to the arena, things like that. There would be people that would come to play. I remember that we had Harry Chapin, or maybe I am confusing that with Oneonta, but he would come by a few times, and other singer songwriters and features, as I can remember, that really related to art and music and cultural activities. IG: 23:41 I see. PB: 23:51 Plays. IG: 23:57 Plays. Remember any titles that were- PB: 23:59 No-no, I have to tell you, I really do not remember, and I think that it was because of the senior year. They were very demanding in the art history program, very demanding, which was good for me later in life. And then, of course, I went right into the MA which was grueling back at that time, there was a thought that I could teach college without my PhD. That changed a lot by the end of the decade. So, they were very rigorous in preparing me to teach introductory art history, which meant I had to know every image in Janssen, and part of my exam- IG: 24:25 Janssen being the textbook? PB: 24:37 Being the history, the famous history of art had 3000 images in it, and part of my master's degree in order to qualify for it were two exams. One was a written thesis, which I did with Boime, and the other were my orals. And my oral exams is I would go into an into the classroom, and they would show 12 slides. With no identification. And I had to be able to identify them. And they could be from pre-history to now and then talk about their context. And they would do sly and clever things. Renaissance closely mimicked Hellenistic Greek and Roman sculpture. You could get confused. They put something in. It was modeled on something at and the cruelest thing they did, because I missed this one. If I missed more than two, I failed. So, I could not fail. The son of the guns, and I will say it to the day this day, put up the Bury Edmund's cross without the Christ on it. And I and several colleagues were taking our orals missed that one. So, when I said it was rigorous, it was rigorous. IG: 25:48 Was it ever it- was it ever constructed without the Christ on the cross? Or did they just take it off? PB: 25:55 They take it off. I think it could be removed for cleaning. So, they had slides of it removed for cleaning and whatever. Yeah, they wanted us to be able to recognize that cross form and pin it to the time period because it was significant. The beauty for how it hand helped me in later life is to this day, if you show me a page full of various different images, I can identify right away differences and similarities and things of that nature. That is a rigorous visual training that does not happen today in current art historical training, and I do not think any students in the last 10, 20 years could handle that. IG: 26:36 Why do you think that that has changed? PB: 26:38 Because I think the entire academic picture has changed within the (19)80s, (19)90s, 2000s with No Child Left Behind. The Switch to stem as you know, there has been a movement away from liberal arts training and art history has also been a very, very rigorous, demanding field, every one of my professors was male, and yet most students, not just the Binghamton but elsewhere Columbia elsewhere, are female. Men do get ahead. I noticed you had a question about, did men do better? The few men that were interested in art history, I remember always kind of did better in terms of getting to speak more with a professor, or being called on first, or things like that. So yes, there was some mild sexism going on in there, but all of these men that I studied under undergrad and grad were themselves products of ivy league training, and they all invariably went back to Ivy League. As a matter of fact, one of the reasons why I did not go on for a PhD is that I knew Al was going to jump to UCLA, a lot of them, except for Lindsay, who stayed and was faithful, all of them went to other places and-and Bruno came down to New York, so I was able to see him there, and he And I kept up a relationship, and it was tough, but it also induced the same academic-academic snobbery in me, snobbery in me, when I talking about the library at Binghamton, because I know this is important, I got a job right away working in the library. All the art librarians, from Betty Lincoln to Thomas Jacoby were very nurturing, and I was very, very good working there. I mean, did not do anything super professional, and they encouraged me when I began to think, I am a girl from a family with no money, and they want me to stay on for a PhD, and then I am going to have to go on and move around the entire country, taking little jobs, just like my dad had to do to get to where he wanted to go, and make very little money and often be adjunct. And maybe I should do something practical. And they say I am good as a librarian. So, I went down and applied to Columbia. I was not going to go anywhere but the finest program in the country. This is what Binghamton had done to me. And I went down and I interviewed with them, and I said, “I want you to know I want to come in. I only plan to be an art librarian. I am very ambitious. I want to run one of the best art libraries in the country.” And they like that because they were very arrogant thought and knew they were the finest [crosstalk] I am blanking on the names, so forgive me, all of them, and it is just today right now, or it is an issue I have with my age, but I can remember them, and they were good. They were they were kind of arrogant there, too. And by the way, this is a digression, that department was eliminated. IG: 29:38 Oh, I know I went- PB: 29:39 [crosstalk] and that had to do with real estate. They did not play their cards, right? IG: 29:45 But it is also, it is also, I mean, this is another conversation, but it is also that they were in keeping up with all of the technological development, PB: 29:52 Right. And they did not do a good job on that. The other thing they did not do is they did not forge ties with departments like communications, journalism, because something happened out in Florida with one of their major universities there, and they eliminated the library school, and all the faculty were able to go to other positions in the college. But at that time, Columbia was on the top and they allowed me to construct a master's in library science there that was completely art oriented. I even took government documents and did the art documents from the National Endowment of the Arts. And it was also a big in for getting jobs. Why I had to work all the time. I mean, I did not say this at the beginning, but there was not money in my family. I had taken out student loans, which I paid off, or things like that, but I got scholarships there at Columbia. My workplaces, I worked at the Fashion Institute of Technology, and then I worked at, this is a stretch American Institute of Physics, in their photo archives working and they paid for my second year of library school. IG: 30:59 How wonderful. PB: 31:00 I did not stay with them. They did not mind. They paid obviously, this is a long time ago, and I got my MLS in 1979 so the Columbia connection, I would not have gone there. I would not have done as well as I did, if it had not been for the rigor of the background in both my undergraduate and then my first graduate training in Binghamton, and I did very well in library school there, and I got very great jobs, except the one thing is, I was offered a job at SUNY Purchase, straight out of library school, and Barry announced that he wanted to get out of New York. He was having existential angst, and he applied to grad school at UCLA and Wisconsin, University of Wisconsin, and we got married, and I went with him, so I deferred that job. IG: 31:50 Where did you end up going? PB: 31:51 I ended up not getting a good job. I ended up getting a parent. Oh, you guys love this. I ended up working in the agriculture college, in their library in their land, tenure library in Madison-Madison, Wisconsin, because nobody I- okay, this is a good story. IG: 32:10 Okay, tell us a good story. PB: 32:11 It is a good story. And coming from Binghamton, you can see that I already have a little intellectual snobbery, well-earned and well deserved. I applied for a job at the Madison County Technical College. So, I go in for the interview, and he looks at my resume, and he looks at my resume, and he said, “Columbia University. I do not know where that is or what that is.” He said, “I only hire University of Wisconsin graduates get out of my office.” There was a very strong- this was 1979, (19)80. There was a very strong anti- well, no, they had had a blow up. They had had the ROTC building was blown up during the (19)60s, and they blamed outside agitators from New York. However, it did not take me very long to find out that the kid who blew up the ROTC building and killed a math professor was a local Madison boy. But I would be in the student I would be in the staff lounge and just over here, well, you know him. He is a con artist. He is from New York, and I would get this. I had a great work study student who worked for me, and I am talking to her, and she was really bright. And I said, “Oh, you know, I would hire you or something like that right away, or, you know, or but I had trouble getting hired here.” And she said to me, I and she loved me, by the way. She said, “I would not hire you. You are not a UW grad.” I actually, I heard that the woman they hired instead of me at Purchase left after a year, and she was Dr. Stan. She taught at Columbia before it closed, and got a PhD from there. So, I wrote to them, and I said, “I lied.” I said, “Oh, I am coming back and I will be living right in the area. Any chance that you would interview me for the job,” they hired me right back in so I left my husband behind for a year in Madison. He finished his master's degree, and I came and lived by myself in White Plains, where I lived for 31 years and worked at SUNY Purchase. From SUNY Purchase, I was lured to the Museum of Modern Art, where I became head of reference. IG: 34:30 Marvelous. PB: 34:31 And it was quite an amazing job. I got to meet all kinds of wonderful people. I partied with Andy Warhol. I had- IG: 34:40 Tell us about that. PB: 34:41 Oh, well, that would be, that was a good joke I would tell my students about because we were both drunk at a at a reception, and- IG: 34:49 Where was the reception? PB: 34:50 I was working at MOMA. MoMA was the child of the Rockefellers, who were the trustees, and they also, of course, Rockefeller Center. They had redone all of. Restaurants. This is back in (19)84, I believe. And yeah, it is (19)84 or so, and they had redone all the restaurants around the skating rink in Manhattan. They had the statue and all that. So, they closed the area off and they did a large reception. I saw Donald Trump there with his first wife, and all I could think of was she has five inches of makeup on. IG: 35:22 She has what? PB: 35:23 Five inches of makeup on. But it was one of those looks (19)80s parties you hear about. And they had stations where you could go get your sirloin burger, your pate this and that. They had open wine and liquor bars. So I was with all the librarians, you know, all the library people at MoMA. We were sitting together big table across from Keith Haring, who stuck his foot out and let me trip over it, and then laughed outrageously. That was Keith. And so, this is a really good story. This is the really and I think Binghamton was at the root of my being able to take all this very well. So, I- we drank liberally. I was a young woman at this time. I was really young. I was 24 when I got my second master's in Columbia. So, I had started college age 16. So, I had, I did all my training together in this, you know, seven, eight-year period, and-and then had it. So, we all been drinking very nicely, and my seat mates came back to me said, "Oh, Paula, there is a chocolate mousse station down there." And they describe where it is. "Oh," I said, three sheets to the wind, or whatever you call I want. I want chocolate mousse. So, I jumped up in the table, and I run over there, and I find out there is a big line, and at the end of the line there is this very handsome man. mind you, I am drunk, and he is wearing a gray bespoke suit, a beautiful lavender necktie. He has snow white hair, and it is tied back like a 19th century man with a velvet ribbon in the back, and he smells of some fantastic cologne. So, I go running up to him, and I say, "Oh, I love chocolate mousse, do not you" And he looks at me, and he sees me, and he smiles his beatific smile. And I said, “What a handsome guy, I am going to flirt with him.” And we start having this amazing, stupid, superficial conversation about chocolate mousse and chocolate mousses we have loved, and chocolate mousses we would like. And we had to wait about 10, 15 minutes on the line, or maybe, I know it was around 10 minutes, and then he was ahead of me in line, so they fixed his plate, but like a gentleman, he stayed with me, and then he helped advise me, because he had, like, white chocolate mousse, and this, I mean, this is the Lux 80s. You would never get that now. And-and help me fill my plate, and then, and I am chatting away at him, and he is chatting back at me, and then we get ready to part, and he is sitting in different areas, so we are standing and we are talking to each other like we are kind of like enamored of each other. And I said, “That was a wonderful talk we had. Thank you very much.” And he looks at me. He says, “I had a great time. Thank you.” So, he walks away. So here is the best part. Here are all my librarian friends. They are jumping up and down on their tables, on the chairs, because they are drunk too, screaming. They look just like the monkeys in 2001 with the monolith. "Paula. Paula. Paula. That was Andy Warhol." And I said, "That was Andy." And they said, "Yeah, what the hell were you doing with him?" It looked like he was going to pick you up and take you for a date. Well. I said, "Well, that would not be bloody likely, but I did not know it was him." And then I told the story to one of my students in college years later, and one of my little students said, she said, "You know what I think happened? He loved that you did not recognize him, and he probably did not get that that much." And then I just talked to him like he was a human, like he was another guy, and I was flirting with him and everything. Later on, I had to teach Warhol in college, because I taught this creative mind course I read, and it turned out he had a famous quote, I am a very superficial person, and it was part of his whole, you know, raise on debt and all that. And I realized that that interlude, my 15 minutes of fame with him, or 10 or whatever, because he is the one that made that quote. You know, we probably were having a wonderful time. Because if I know who he was, I would have changed my behavior immediately and been whatever. And he had the joy of a young woman who did not know he was gay and did not know he was who he was, and just true human beings having fun at a party. And I met some other great people too. So, MoMA was wonderful, but I was very ambitious. Ancient Chinese curse, you sometimes will get what you want. So, I applied for the curatorship of the Art and Architecture Department at New York Public Library. I did not do research, number one mistake, but I knew that that was one of the premier positions, and I was very ambitious, and I had competition that took six months to hire, and then I was hired, and I stayed there for 22 years. But it was a terrible place, a terrible, terrible workplace, terrible. IG: 40:35 Why? PB: 40:36 Because there was no appreciation of the employees and no trust, no appreciation. For example, I curated exhibitions, but I was not allowed to talk to the President of the of NYPL. Did not want staff talking to trustees. I- my boss and I had to give a little show and tell to Oscar de la Renta, his wife, Annette and Bill Blass. They love me. Bill Blass started up a friendship with me. He wanted to do stuff. I had to actually go to the director of the NYPL and tell him that Bill Blass was talking to me directly. And he put an end to that at once, it was terrible. IG: 41:21 How terrible. PB: 41:22 One time, if you know about development- IG: 41:24 Who instituted those rules? PB: 41:27 I do not know, but that was a culture, that was a culture. And I came in. At- IG: 41:32 Do you think that that has changed? PB: 41:34 I think it has gotten worse. IG: 41:36 You think that it is- but Tony Marks was president. PB: 41:40 And at, yeah, he was at, oh, God, what is it? I have a friend of mine works, worked there for him. IG: 41:47 But no longer. PB: 41:48 Yeah, Amherst College. Was Amherst, or was it the other one. IG: 41:52 Who was the president at the time? PB: 41:54 Well, I had several, actually, I do not even mean president, I mean director of the library. I see Bill Walker, and he was not a good person. Oh, I am seeing this librarianship, so, all right, I am getting a little too free here. All right, make sure you delete that and, you know, just leave it vague like that. It was not a good place to work. And one example of that is that they brought in new management around 2004 and the word got out, but then they took so long, because they were using lawyers, they were going McKinsey Company had come and done a survey. They blamed upper management. They found out, right? Who was responsible? Well, you know, upper management is not going to take the fall. So, they decided that all the middle managers who were over 40 would be gotten rid of. And that was me, along with some brilliant people. I had just done an exhibition there. Oh, and they made a gag order. We were not allowed to talk for three years about being turned down. And one of their motives where we were in the New York State Pension, and the ones who had been there who were over 55 and were in tier one, they cost them a fortune. I was in tier four, though, and which was the least one. But they just came and they just cleaned house. They tossed one of the beloved curators, who was considered to be the best map librarian in the country, out while she was still doing an exhibition, I had just done an exhibition that broke attendance records and had gotten raves in the New York Times, in New Yorker magazine, and they decided- IG: 43:37 These articles, do these articles mention you? PB: 43:40 Yes. Oh, not always. IG: 43:44 Not always. PB: 43:44 The New York Times is funny about not necessarily mentioning curators and things like that. Although I did get mentioned in the early exhibitions later on, I might have- IG: 43:56 What was the name of the exhibition that you were- PB: 43:59 I have the poster in the home. It is called Art Deco design, rhythm and verve. That was the attendance breaking one, but it did not matter, and I knew the collection. I had a master's. I had been there 22 years and but they had brought in a manager, and he was actually a colleague, friend of mine, and they decided they would not have two non-union managers, so I was the one to go, and he had just come in a few years ago. Previously- IG: 44:36 When did that happen? PB: 44:37 2002 because I was going out for brain surgery. I had a brain tumor. I am a brain tumor survivor, and we did not know if I was going to make it, but that is not why they hired him. They did not even know all this was coming down until I let them know, and he came on board like the week before I went for my surgery. IG: 44:58 Okay, so that-that is really a life changing event, PB: 45:02 Yes, and- IG: 45:03 You survived. PB: 45:04 Yeah. IG: 45:05 How did that change your life? PB: 45:06 Well, I began to see I began too again. Maybe we can even think my critical thinking skills were good from my early 20s on, I knew a lot of us stayed there. I was very highly paid. I was one of the highest paid art librarians in the country, which is what I wanted. But that made me a target. I had a big target on my back. [crosstalk] Yes, they did not care. I mean, the people that they let go, they let go of the curator in the Slavic division, the curator- IG: 45:38 I know, I know- PB: 45:40 [crosstalk] They let John Lundquist. They let go of Alice Hudson, everybody who was over 40. And mind you, they were not necessarily as well-well paid as me, because they have been there longer. I came in and I had- IG: 45:53 What was, what was their what was the premise? I mean, what was, what was their explanation for doing away. For example- PB: 46:02 They were going, they wanted to integrate. It was going to be one library they did away with the research libraries. They had started a remote storage facility at Princeton that they did in Tandem with Princeton and Columbia put your books into stories, you probably had a 60 percent chance of never seeing them again. It all went black. It went black. IG: 46:31 It was such a- PB: 46:32 And I had a gag, I had a gag order on me. For me, they had to be careful, because Alice and John and Ed. They were, they were older than me, 10 years older than me. I was just in my mid 50s at that time, I came in as a tier four, the bottom tier, and they really did not have a reason. And if they had been asked, why did you take the one with all the experience and credentials over the one that is just come in as a library manager, they would not have a leg to stand on. So, this is what they did, which was illegal, but believe me, they had all their lawyers on it. They knew I would turn 55 in October, 2009 so they kept me on for a year. They let me know in July, 2008 that I was out, my position was eliminated. That is how they got around it legally. My position as curator, they retired. Almost all except for a couple curator positions just eliminated them. That was a legal thing that they did to protect themselves and with me they came. They said, “This is totally illegal by New York State law.” Why am I doing this as a recording here? Well, I do not mind. I am past the date now. They told me, “Oh, Paula, you are going to be 55 next September.” Illegal-illegal-illegal. Why do not we have you retire then, and we will give you health benefits for life, for right up through Medicare, and even help you with which is what they did with retirees. But they did not have to give them to me, and they did not give them to a lot of other people who they laid off. They laid off 65 people at the time I was let go, and 64 of them were called into the auditorium and told you have 10 days to pack up and leave. I was the 65th but they waited on me. The director had me in his office, and I come in, and I knew I am in trouble because the labor relations guy is there, and he said, coldly to me, I am the one that had done all these things. Got articles in New York Times and that, as did all my colleagues. And he said, “Things are changing here at New York Public Library, we no longer have any need of your experience or services.” And it was mean as could be Now, there are ways to handle it. And this guy, who is now head of the National Archives, by the way, you know, was very mean to me. I guess he was told he had to be that way. I am sure he did not enjoy it, but he enjoyed his very lux salary as director. I think he was brought in. We all agree, he was brought in as a henchman, and there was a reward waiting for him down the line, which there was, and he, you know, there is so many ways to tell somebody they are not wanted anymore. He could have done it and still got rid of me and said, “You know, this is great, but we are changing to more stem version, and we are going to downplay our liberal art.” He just basically made me feel like a creep. And then when I am like, really creep, and I am thinking, gee, maybe I have a lawsuit here, and they were terribly afraid of that, he said, “But you know what, we are going to keep you. You are still a year away from being 55 we are going to keep you for a year, and we are going to second you.” He did not use second. I mean, using that term to the Education Department, where you will work till next year, and maybe you can stay on and but at least when you get retired, you will be 55 and you will be in the state pension system, and you can get a pension. Well, first of all, illegally. That is illegal-illegal-illegal. You do not talk to an employee about their age. And yet, they did, I and they did it, you know, and I think that they were measuring lawsuit versus, you know, the carrot to get someone who had had a brain tumor and had to get checked every few years and take an MRI, and I also had both my knees replaced in 2006 and then had radiation because the tumor grew again. They knew I needed health benefits, so that was my bribery, and I went for it. And as soon as I was retired, nobody in the New York area would touch me because I was retired, so I am desperate, and so I decided to write books again, and I taught a little course back at Purchase and continuing ed and on the next to second, last second to last night of the course I was teaching, one of my students raised her hand, said, "My husband's a dean at Berkeley College. They are looking for someone to teach art history and critical thinking. Can I recommend you?” They hired me like a flash. IG: 51:29 That is wonderful. PB: 51:31 And I worked for them for nearly eight years. But Binghamton, I am in you know, I think Binghamton-Binghamton opened my eyes to the world, but also taught me what intellectual integrity was, and about hard work and about various things. I have another story for you, which will tell you about the upstate downstate I worked various jobs and jobs I worked most often when I was an undergraduate, because I had school, but I needed that money. I had no spending money. I worked as a night guard in the dorms because I was a night owl. But one summer when I was not taking many courses, they hired me in the cafeteria of the Student Union, and I like it was my second day there, and they said, “You know what, we are going to put you on the cash register?” Well, it turned out to be a call celeb, and all of Binghamton was talking about it, because they had never, ever put a student, an undergraduate student, on the cash register, because they figured, or, steal, and I was in nine days wonder, I think the radio station had a big thing about it, pipe dream had a little article about it. People would come up to me and say, they put you on the cash register. And I Yeah, but they-they knew they talked to me and I talked upstate. They knew where I came from. They even knew part of my family through Cooperstown and stuff like that. And so, I always thought that that was a marvelous statement about Binghamton. And this is (19)74, (19)70 sometimes (19)74 or late (19)73 and this was the upstate downstate divide, because all of us were firmly agreed, and they would not say anything in the cafeteria. But I knew it was true that because I was an upstate girl, they could trust me on the cash register. IG: 53:29 That is a great story. We are running out of time. PB: 53:34 I knew it. IG: 53:34 And so, I usually conclude these interviews by asking, what lessons did you learn from this time in your life? And you said “Intellectual integrity and a rigor.” PB: 53:48 Being able to work hard. I was not able to write five books without being very disciplined. I had to make decisions like, I am not watching television, I am writing. I cannot write books if I watch television. And I think that some of the arrogance of my professors in that program, you know, that we are the best, and this and that rubbed off on me, because I wanted to go to the best college for librarianship when I decided to be a professional librarian, art librarian. And I also think that Binghamton took a sheltered little girl from a very white bread, you know, not diverse community, grew up that way, and exposed her to lots of different students, lots of different situations. Socially, I did well. Romance wise, I went from being a little girl who did not go to the prom to, you know, popular, and I became a person. But all my critical thinking, because I was very informed when I came to Binghamton, developed there, and I had to learn to grow up fast. There were things that we do not need to talk about Binghamton, that you learn to grow up fast. Asked about and you had to have faith in your faculty. And I certainly did. And I, you know, I did two master's degrees willy nilly, and got by them quite well, straight out of there. And to this day, because I still intellectually, you know, I was hurt by the NYPL experience deeply hurt, and probably will be, you know, Barry says, you know, remember, that is past old news and all that, but writing all those books and doing all that was my way, and I have a lot of published articles- IG: 55:36 Books, please tell our audience are on- PB: 55:39 Native American jewelry. I am an expert in that area, particularly Southwestern Navajo and Pueblo jewelry, because the Southwest is the marketplace for all Native American jewelry. Jewelers from South America, Central America and Canada, come to the southwest to sell their jewelry. IG: 56:02 And just tell us how many books you have written and some of the titles. And- PB: 56:07 The first book I wrote was a tribute to my library background. I wrote the Encyclopedia of Native American Jewelry. It is the first and only such encyclopedia of its kind. NYPL keeps it in their main reading room still, which is a source of pride to me that I have a book in the main reading room at NYPL at 42nd street. I then went on to write four more books. My magnum opus is a two-volume definitive 150 years of Navajo Pueblo jewelry design, 1870 to 2020, it is an expansion of my first full book, southwestern silver jewelry. And I have is going to be combination reference book, picture book. It will be the resource in the field jewelry, because and has often got short hand. You know, short treatment in academia and other areas, because it is decorative arts or whatever, and Native American art in general has not always had a literature that serves it well. A lot of people wrote were enthusiasts or collectors, and not necessarily academics. So, I am able to write in an academic but accessible, shall we say, accessible, scholarly man- manner, thanks to my education and my training as a professional. IG: 57:33 Thank you so much. It has been a delightful interview, an extremely interesting life story. PB: 57:41 I think Barry would be angry that I talked about the NYPL. But since this is a library and it is a center, and you know, they did us wrong, I do not mind being on record with this, they cannot do anything to me. Statute of limitations is long over, and you know, if you are going to be a librarian, you need to be alert. I saw many red flags in my time there. And, yeah, this is not being required. IG: 58:10 All right. Thank you very, very much. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paula Baxter Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Baxter, Paula ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Paula is a practicing design historian. She is the author of three books on Native American jewelry, along with numerous magazine articles on American Indian arts and design. Before that, she was a professor in the humanities at Berkeley College in Westchester County, New York. Previously she worked as an art librarian and curator at the New York Public Library for 22 years. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-03-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Paula Baxter.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-03-01 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 58:14 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f30fd3407cba93fdbb53d2ab44069e31.jpg 7e2b3901d0d47a77a4f29c9f664b2b3e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/29eadd8cc1dd7a1509dd2f251414d16b.mp3 c728b2fa451b3a176a1912fba800423b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Peggy Seeger, 1935- Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Peggy Seeger is an American folk singer. She founded the Critics Group and also sang and wrote about women's rights and other controversial topics with her husband. Seeger has published a collection of 150 of her songs from before 1998. She lived in the UK until 1994, then returned to the US and continued to sing about women's issues, teach, and produce music videos. Seeger went back to the UK and published her memoir, First Time Ever: A Memoir.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,4884200],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Peggy Seeger is an American folk singer. She founded the Critics Group and also sang and wrote about women's rights and other controversial topics with her husband. Seeger has published a collection of 150 of her songs from before 1998. She lived in the UK until 1994, then returned to the US and continued to sing about women's issues, teach, and produce music videos. Seeger went back to the UK and published her memoir, <em>First Time Ever: A Memoir</em>.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Vietnam War; Hiroshima; Feminism; Activism; University; Black Death; Newt Gingrich; Thalidomide; England; Pete Seeger; WWII.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:1,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0}}">Vietnam War; Hiroshima; Feminism; Activism; University; Black Death; Newt Gingrich; Thalidomide; England; Pete Seeger; WWII.</span> Subject LCSH Folk singers; Women's rights; Seeger, Peggy, 1935--Interviews Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 105:58 Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Peggy Seeger Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seeger, Peggy, 1935- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Folk singers; Women's rights; Seeger, Peggy, 1935--Interviews Description An account of the resource Peggy Seeger is an American folk singer. She founded the Critics Group and also sang and wrote about women's rights and other controversial topics with her husband. Seeger has published a collection of 150 of her songs from before 1998. She lived in the UK until 1994, then returned to the US and continued to sing about women's issues, teach, and produce music videos. Seeger went back to the UK and published her memoir, <em>First Time Ever: A Memoir</em>. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.152a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.152b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 105:58 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/50d57ba724c64aab841b52fca987947d.jpg bd997ce0cb431443036ad9ded3e318d2 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ea3ea668ec2822981541b3f6c412f571.mp3 3bbf83287b3665e4961ae7933563b5f8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview (2009-07-25)(2009-08-12) Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Pete Seeger, 1919-2014 Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Pete Seeger (May 3, 1919 - January 27, 2014) was a folk singer and a social activist. In addition, to being a folk singer he also wrote his own songs as he performed them to people. He wrote songs throughout the different time periods of history. For example, he recorded an album in '78 called \&quot;Songs of the Lincoln Battalion\&quot; with Tom Glazer, Bess Lomax, and Baldwin Hawes.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:515,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:16370588},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Pete Seeger (May 3, 1919 - January 27, 2014) was a folk singer and a social activist. In addition, to being a folk singer he also wrote his own songs as he performed them to people. He wrote songs throughout the different time periods of history. For example, he recorded a 78 RPM album called <em>Songs of the Lincoln Battalion</em>&nbsp;with Tom Glazer, Bess Lomax, and Baldwin Hawes.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 80:25 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Rolf in the Woods: The Adventures of a Boy Scout with Indian Quonab and Little Dog Skookum (Book); Ernest Thompson Seton; Theodore Roosevelt; Eugene V. Debs; American Student Union; Woodstock; The Great Depression; Jackson State; Kent State; Songs; Voting Rights Act of 1965.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:515,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:16370588},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Rolf in the Woods: The Adventures of a Boy Scout with Indian Quonab and Little Dog Skookum (Book); Ernest Thompson Seton; Theodore Roosevelt; Eugene V. Debs; American Student Union; Woodstock; The Great Depression; Jackson State; Kent State; Songs; Voting Rights Act of 1965.</span> Subject LCSH Folk singers; Human rights workers; Seeger, Pete, 1919-2014--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Pete Seeger Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Kashawn Hernandez Date of interview: 25 July 2009; 8 December 2009 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:04 PS: The whole chapter will be off the press in November. 00:10 SM: Very good. And who, who is printing it? What company? 00:13 PS: WW Norton Company. Good company. 00:17 SM: Yep. 00:19 PS: And we will go to actually go to press in a few weeks. And I hope to get an advanced copy sometime in September, October. 00:33 SM: Super. And it will be hard back too? 00:38 PS: Both. Oh, I think hardback. Like, I do not know for sure. 00:44 SM: All right I guess ̶ 00:46 PS: $25. $24.95 00:51 SM: All right. 00:52 PS: Okay. All right. 00:52 SM: Ready? 00:53 PS: Remind me what your name is? 00:55 SM: My name is Steve McKiernan. I booked; I know Peggy. Peggy came to our college at Westchester University and performed and then I interviewed Peggy over the phone. Peggy is the one that called you right away and said, you need to talk to Steve and then I called you and then I sent you the questions and everything. And this book is basically a book on the boomers but it is also a lot of the things that you were involved in (19)60s and (19)50s/(19)60s and (19)70s. So, I am looking at the boomers from different aspects and getting people's opinions. First question I want to ask is, when did you think the (19)60s began? What was it, what do you think was the watershed moment from the (19)60s? 01:44 PS: I would say in the (19)50s there were extraordinary things happening, the civil rights movement ̶ started in colleges throughout the north. There were people who went down to help, there were white students who went down to help Dr. King. Freedom summer was officially 1964. But before that they were going down there to help out. And, my guess is Woodstock made a big, big change because people who did not go to Woodstock saw the movie Woodstock, right? And I tell people, the most popular song in America was "123 What Are We Fighting For?" The (19)60s were over then. It was 1970 when the movie was out, but (19)69 was Woodstock. There were things before this, like the Newport Folk Festival. The Clearwater started in (19)69. See what could be the (19)60s, offhand, I just cannot think. 03:25 SM: Do you think there was one event? When you look at the boomers ̶ they were the people born between 1946 and 1964. What do you think in their eyes was the most important event that happened in their lives ̶ that may have shaped them the most? 03:42 PS: Well, I do not know. I cannot think of any one thing. It is a lot of little things. Because this is me ̶ I started singing in colleges in 1953. Up till that time I sang at little left-wing camps and an occasional lefty hotel or some place called Music Inn up in the Berkshires. At concerts I gave or in the Boss Circuit, that would be a place I would sing, so I do not think if any one thing. For some it might been a festival, who knows. But it could have been lots of little things. 05:05 SM: Lots of little things, not a little thing, not one specific thing. How do you feel when you hear people like George Will or Newt Gingrich or individuals, look at the boomer generation, blame all the problems of American society on this group of people, that they love them say that the breakup the American family, the drugs, that values went down? How do you feel when you hear those people say those things about that time? 05:39 PS: The poor people do not know what they are talking about. There is a drug problem, incidentally, did you ever hear of Kurt Vonnegut? 05:54 SM: Oh yeah. 05:54 PS: Statement about says, if people ask me, what do you think America's greatest cultural contribution to the world has been many would say jazz. I love jazz, jazz is good, but I would say Alcoholics Anonymous. It showed a way to help people who are alcoholics without having to spend a lot of money. They just get together and they admit, they have all got a problem. And they talk over their problem with each other and said, with God's help, we are going to kick this habit. It was a truly great cultural invention. 06:45 SM: So those individuals that do kind of do broad based attacks on a group of people, you think they were way out left field? 06:54 PS: You know, people who think that passing a law against it is the way to solve a problem. They just they did not take learn from prohibition ̶ prohibition just created a whole lot of gangsters who made a lot of money out of prohibition and people could get drunk by paying money to the right gangster. 07:17 SM: When you performed in the say in the (19)60s and through the middle (19)70s and you saw these students, well, and nonstudents who were in the in your audience and then of course, a lot has been written on them since. What do you think of the strength of that group of young people? Because you have been performing for young people since the (19)40s and (19)50s. And, but when you are getting specifically into those people that were born after World War II, raised by parents, oftentimes people that fought in the war and went through the depression and tried to give their kids as much as they could that they did not have, what would you say would be the strengths and the weaknesses of that generation? 08:06 PS: These are interesting questions. I think it is the interesting thing that it was a middle-class movement in many ways. These were not ignorant sharecroppers who had not barely gone through the third grade in school. These were ̶ they had the good education. And they could see the hypocrisy of the ruling class. Maybe I could be looking at my own experience. I came from a family of teachers. My grandfather was a small businessman and a Republican from old New England. My grandmother was a, his wife, was a member of the Mayflower. But as a child, I read the books of Ernest Thompson Seaton, he wrote about American Indians. I do not know if you ever heard of heard of Seaton. He wrote, he was sold widely to teenagers in the first two and a half decades. His first best seller was in the 1890s. I read a book called Ralph in the Woods when I was eight years old. It was written for twelve or thirteen years old, but I was eight. I was a good reader. And that is the story of a thirteen-year-old being beaten by a stepfather and he runs off into the woods. This is the year 1810. And there has a wigwam in the woods of Indian, whose tribe had been massacred. His wife had been sold into slavery. And he is living in this wigwam trapping a few animals and exchanging their skins for a few things at the corner store that he needs. Ralph says, Can I stay with you overnight, my stepfather is going to beat me. And the Indian says, Sure roll up in the corner. In the morning, the stepfather arrives. Oh, you will with Indian, I am going to get my gun. Now that both are in trouble, they flee up the Hudson Valley to the Adirondacks and work for a local Dutch farmer. Worked for local Dutch farmer for a month and earned enough money to buy some traps and other tools they need. Now they hit into Adirondacks and build a cabin. And the next few years, every chapter of the book is another nature lesson. Some of them are funny when the dog meets a porcupine. Some of them are almost tragic. Ralph, the boy fit now a fourteen-year-old or fifteen. He sees two male deer with an Atlas hook that cannot escape, and one of them is dead and the other trying to free himself but he cannot get free and Ralph goes up and frees the live deer but now the live deer is crazy and he charges Ralph and pins roll to the ground. You know Ralph is going to be ̶ the dog is well known about dogs can sense things from afar they no one knows how they do it. You know, they make a long trip and they know which direction to go and so, and the dog whines the Indian says when something has gone wrong lead me to the dog leads the Indian to where Ralph is. And the Indian shoots the deer and saves Ralph's life. Another chapter is a French Canadian in the neighboring valley is trapped by his own bear trap and cannot get out. But they free him and the French Canadian in broken English says, I will never forget you if you ever need help, call on me. Now. The next year is the war of 1812 is broken out and they are hired by the US Army to be scouts and the carry messages from east to west along the frontier. Once Ralph is running through the woods alone, and he suddenly hears a cry, “Halt.” And there is a gun pointed at him, and that is a French-Canadian soldier and it is the trapper. And he says, "Run Ralph I will shoot over your head" so well friends, the man shoots over his head, and Ralph gets away. It is an exciting novel. I got into every one of Seaton's books. I read that [Cross, Gracit and Dunlap] sold for $8 some seven books. And I persuaded my parents to invest let me buy all eight of them seven, "[Lives regrets], Lives of the Hunted. Seaton did not die till his (19)80s in the 1950s in Santa Fe, New Mexico. He had gone down there to capture [Logo] the wolf. I got into the big criticism that the American Indian has of whites was our hypocrisy. 14:27 SM: Do you think that some people say the very same thing about the boomer generation, that they are hypocrites, they felt they could change the world when they were young, they protest against, or 15% of them did. And then they have gone on to become materialistic and make a lot of money. Do you think that is true? 14:45 PS: Well, some of them did give up. I do not think that was a very wrong criticism though. They were basically protesting the hypocrisy of the ruling class. Incidentally when you speak the ruling class. Marx gave it that term. But did you ever hear of president Rutherford Hayes? 15:08 SM: Oh yeah, he was a nineteenth. President 1877. Yeah, well ̶ PS: 15:11 He was a very honest president. He only agreed to run for four years because he loved his family and did not want to subject them to that pressure for more than four years. After he was president, he liked to make speeches. He had jumped into this new invention called a railroad to go somewhere and give a speech. And in 1888, the Supreme Court handed down a famous decision ̶ there was no capital punishment for corporations. Up till that time, the state could handle it charter to a corporation. And if they did not like what the corporation was doing, they could take it away. But now, after 1888 the Supreme Court said that you can fine a cooperation if they do something wrong, but you cannot take away their corporate status. Rutherford Hayes, says face it, we no longer have a government of the people by the people for the people- we have a government of corporations by corporations, corporations and in 1891 when he met Cornelius Vanderbilt, he said we have a government of the rich by the rich for the rich. Now this was rarely said by the ruling class person, it was said by farmers or workers and squatter Eugene Debs said when he started the Socialist Party, but this is being said by people at the top. Theodore Roosevelt said it in 1906. I think I keep in my pocket pictures - this is Theodore Roosevelt. 15:43 SM: Could you read it to me? Or you want me to - 17:11 PS: "Behind the ostensible government of our country there exists a secret government not beholden to the people. To destroy this secret government, it should be the chief task of responsible statesmanship to destroy the link between corrupt business and corrupt politics. 17:40 SM: That is a beautiful quote. 17:44 PS: Well, the unholy alliance, the first task statesman, of course Franklin Roosevelt said something similar. He said, we have running the country, economic royalists. He said that in the 1930s. 18:01 SM: So, a lot of the things that the boomers were doing on college campuses in the (19)60s and challenging, again, we were talking 15 percent of people that were that age ̶ they were challenged in the universities and because they were becoming too linked to the corporations. 18:21 PS: In 1955, I was sixteen years old. And my mother drove me to Connecticut where she was teaching violin to a Jewish family. And the teenagers were studying violin. And over supper, they were asking what I was going to do with my life. I was sixteen. I said, I am going to be a hermit. That is the only way to be an honest person in this hypocritical world. I will have little to do with the world as possible. And they jumped on me ̶ if that is your idea of morality, you are going to be nice and pure yourself and let the rest of the world go to hell. And they posed my New England Thoreaulite way of thinking to their traditional Jewish sense of social content, social consciousness. And I decided they were right. So, I started getting more involved. And I, when I went to college, a year later, I got involved in student, what do you call it, the student, oh, my memories, the Harvard Student Union, the American Student Union, was the name of the organization. Actually, they had their annual meeting at Vassar because there was a liberal president at Vassar. And then I was editing the little monthly magazine for the Harvard Student Union, called the Harvard Progressive. And I did not pay attention to my marks, the high marks slipped and I lost my scholarship. So, I had to leave. I did not have enough money to go to Harvard if I did not have a scholarship. I also worked; my brothers’ help pay a third of that money. And I worked for a third of the money and the scholarship took care of a third of the money. But I was also disgusted with what I felt was the hypocrisy of some of the professors. Professor Sorokin was a social democrat. He was a friend of the guy that the Bolsheviks kicked out in Russia. And he said, do not think you can change the world. What you can do is study it. And that was trying to persuade us not to try and do some changes ̶ 21:21 SM: Do you think that may have been happening in the (19)60s and (19)70s? What college students today, you know, do not you know, do not make waves just study it ̶ 21:31 PS: And I decided I did not want to bother going to college, if that was the kind of people teaching here. Now, the people like Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky, are the exception that proves the rule that the average teacher will tell you, you do not want to get thrown in jail, study it, and when you learn a lot, then you can do something and get in a position of importance, and you can do something. 21:56 SM: What is it about your music ̶ and I read your books. Your music is something that your dad taught you when you were young, that music was supposed to have a social content, that it was supposed to have meaning and the most important thing is writing music. It is not really the performance, but it is remembering the words. So, the impact will be lasting in the lifetime of a young person as they grow older and sharing it with their young people. What is it about your music that is so important to the boomer generation because it is, you really, you have had a lot of impact your words, in your music? 22:38 PS: I try not to lose a sense of humor. But occasionally in every program, I do something deadly serious. "Walking down death row, I sang for three men destined for the chair. Walking down death row, I sang of lives and loves in other years. Walking down death row, I sang of hopes that used to be. Through the bars, into each separate cell, Yes, I sang to one and two and three. If you had only stuck together you would not be sitting here! If you could have loved each other's lives, you'd not be sitting here! And if only this you could believe, you might still, you might still be reprieved. Walking down death row, I turned the corner and found to my surprise; there were women there as well, with babies in their arms, before my eyes. Walking down death row, I tried once more to sing of hopes that used to be. But the thought of that contraption, down the hall, waiting for whole families, one dozen, two or three, if you had only stuck together, you would not be here! If you could have loved another child as well as your own, you would not be sitting here! And if only this you could believe, you might still, you might still be reprieved." The last verse. “Walking down death row, I concentrated, singing to the young. I sang of hopes that flickered still, I tried to mouth their many separate tongues. Walking down death row, I sang of hopes that still might be singing, singing sing in down death row to each separate human cell, one billion, two, or three, if we would only stick together, we would not be here! If we do not really stick together, we would not be here. If we could learn to love each other's lives, we would not be sitting here! And if only this we could believe, we still might, we still might be reprieved." 25:11 SM: Okay, hold on one second. Are you excited about the anniversary of Woodstock? 25:23 PS: Not particularly. Not in favor of big things. I think the world will be saved by small things. 25:36 SM: You know, before we start, I went into Barnes and Noble bookstore. That is the place where I bought your books. And I noticed that Mr. Dunaway, his book, the paperback book, also the book the Protest Singer, which I have read them both ̶ now I have read both of them, I have underlined them. And then a book that had the CD in it with our music. It was, I forget the name of the guy who wrote it. It was up ̶ 26:12 PS: Yeah, orange cover. 26:16 SM: Yeah, so the great things, and then of course your CDs are very strong at Barnes and Noble and I bought the one when I spoke to you briefly down at Beacon New York ̶ you had recommended that CD of all your music, I think it was about thirty songs and I have that too. So, but what is interesting before we start the interview, I went into the bookstore yesterday and I was kind of shocked. They have had a couple books out on Woodstock, and I know that, but you know, two or three hardbacks, but they got a whole table full of items. It has become such a commercial event. It is sometimes sickening. 27:00 PS: Yes. 27:03 SM: All right, you are ready for some questions? 27:05 PS: I was going to ask you if you did not have fun in the bookstore. The book I wrote years ago, I guess cool. Everybody says Freedom was not there. 27:16 SM: That was not there. And I think you mentioned ̶ 27:19 PS: What about the storytelling book? 27:21 SM: Oh, I have that too. Yes. But I brought that with me, but I forgot to have you sign it. That is a very good book. 27:31 PS: You should know that WW. Norton will have out in November, a book called Where Have all the Flowers Gone? And the first edition came out fifteen years ago, sixteen years ago but it was so full of mistakes I told the [saying out], do not reprint it, do not reprint it. It took me thirteen years to get the job done. It finally went to press and now has a new publisher rather, co-publisher and called Where Have All the Flowers Gone: A Musical Autobiography. 28:18 SM: Very nice. Well what that will come out in November? 28:23 PS: Yes. 28:24 SM: I will definitely have to get a copy and send it to you, and have it signed. 28:30 PS: Okay. 28:32 SM: All right. Well, here is my first question. When you think of the boomer generation now that is the young people born after the war ̶ and the people that actually came to a lot of your concerts in the (19)60s and (19)70s. What does the (19)60s and the youth of the (19)70s mean to you? 28:53 PS: Well, it was a significant breakthrough in the control of the country by the powers who have the money. Probably know that not just lefties but both sorts of quite well-known respectable people knew that shortly after the Civil War, corporations and business controlled the country and controlled the media, newspapers and so on. It is true that there were opposition from those who were aware of this, but they were small and weak. I mean you have the farmers movement and the union movement of the late nineteenth century and you had the socialist movement and the communist movement. 99 percent of the people got their news from the newspapers and places like the radio and TV. And the exceptions were rare. Well for example, songs that were on the radio during the 1930s during the Depression were all love song. And there was never a song which even mentioned the idea there was a depression on. Herbert Hoover said to Rudy Vallee a popular singer, Mr. Vallee, if you can sing a song that will make the American people forget the depression, I will give you a medal. The exception proves the rule. On Broadway, there was a very popular musical show. And the hit song of the show was called "Brother Can you Spare a Dime." Because in the show there was a breadline and the guy say he spent my life building the country. Now, I am out of a job. Brother, buddy, can you spare a dime? Did you ever hear the song? 31:20 SM: Oh, yes. 31:22 PS: Then you know it, it is a famous song. The exception to the rule. The rule was a Bing Crosby's song “Wrap Your Troubles in Dreams (And Dream Your Troubles Away)". I knew because [I was in my period], so I played in this cool jazz band and it was one stupid song after another ̶ well we were clever and sometimes had a good tune. But it was all forget your troubles. You cannot do anything about your trouble so anything you can do is forget. So, let me give you a sample of the opposite opinion. I always thought that Rutherford B. Hayes, who was president after General Grant was the worst president we ever had because he withdrew federal troops from the South. That was the end of reconstruction. Up until then, blacks, ex-slaves had been able to vote, and they sent several people to Congress, one became a senator, iron rebels. After troops were withdrawn from the south, the Ku Klux Klan took over the south. Rutherford B Hayes actually was not a bad president because he was forced into this. The deal was made behind his back. But he was a very honest president. And after he only told Republicans he only be willing to run a one term. He loved his wife and family. And this one is subject to that pressure for more than four years. Well, eight years after he was president, the Supreme Court handed down a decision saying there was no capital punishment for corporations. Before that states could hand out a charter to a corporation. And if they did not like what they were doing, they can take it away or not after 1888 find a corporation if they do something illegal, but you could not take away their charter. And Hayes says, face it. We no longer have a government, of the people by the people for the people. As Lincoln said in the Gettysburg Address, we have a government of corporations by corporations. for corporations. Way back then he said it. Then President Theodore Roosevelt said in 1906 ̶ behind the ostensible government of our country with there is a secret government, which shows no allegiance to the people; to destroy this secret government should be the chief task of responsible statesmanship. And he has, you know, tried with the antitrust laws and the income tax. But then he was voted out. Woodrow Wilson came in however, Woodrow Wilson before he left office said, I am filled with unhappiness. So, let me read you exactly what he said about it. Here is Woodrow Wilson around 1989, I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. The great industrial nation is controlled by a system of credit or a system of credit is concentrated the growth of the nation Therefore, all our activities are in the hands of the few men. We have come to be one of the worst rules, one of the most completely controlled and dominated government in the civilized world. No longer government, by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction, the vote of the majority, but a government of the government by the opinion and duress of a small group, of dominant men which under administration the Federal Reserve was created. So, and you know, probably Franklin Roosevelt said we have economic royalists in our country. In other words, not just the lefties said we should get rid of the rich people. Some rich people are extraordinary. You know, George Soros is one and John D. Rockefeller, Jr. ended up giving away most money, which is probably less. 36:41 SM: So, when you look at the ̶ comparing this history and you mentioned Rutherford B. Hayes, at least he had the integrity to serve one term, even though he may not have been the greatest president in the world. But when you look at the leaders that were in charge of our government when the boomers were young, and continuing through today, you are looking at people like Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and obviously, Bush again. These are the people that have ̶ when you look at the leaders that the boomers have had lived through, what are your thoughts on them? 37:23 PS: Well, life is compromises. And maybe one of the things you learn about politics is the compromises necessary. One of the mistakes often people think, oh, we just get rid of those rich people, and everything will be hunky dory, and they have not learned how to compromise. I think one of the most important things about, if you read the book about Lincoln called Team of Rivals ̶ 38:01 SM: Yes, I have Doris Kearns Goodwin, 38:03 PS: A very, very important book. And I rather suspect that Barack Obama has read it too, 38:11 SM: Yes, he has. 38:14 PS: But the boomers made the mistake of thinking, we will get the young people in charge and everything will be hunky dory. I remember arguing with Jerry Rubin. You got to work with the old people as well as the young people. That is one of the lessons in the civil rights movement. Yes, the middle age people, people in their (19)30s and forty were cautious. But their kids and their grandparents were the ones who carried through Dr. King's great change. Civil Rights, evolution if you want to call it, a peaceful revolution. My own life, my own way of thinking was turned around by King. My best song has been written about him, my best new song. Have you heard, "Take it From Dr. King"? 39:12 SM: I do not believe I have. 39:14 PS: I wrote it right after the Twin Towers were bombed. 39:18 PS: No, I have not. 39:23 SM: It is the last chapter in my new book, “Take it from Dr. King”. And so, I argue with young people who think that world change is going to be done by one group, if I think it was the mistake of Marx, thinking that the working class would be the only group that would make change. I think there was a collective thought back then, and I think some of the boomers still have it even as they approach old age, because they are leaving middle age of the early boomers, and that is that they were the most unique generation in American history, that they were going to change the world bring peace, love, end conflict. And you know, and create kind of a new world order, which I do not know really has happened. But that is, your thoughts on that attitude that used to be very prevalent in the 1960s and some of them still have it today as they are approaching, as they reach sixty. 40:40 PS: Oh, yes, I get letters from people in their (19)60s thanking me for coming in and singing at their college back in the 1950s. I went from college to college to college during the late 1950s. I started in Oberlin in 1953. Went to Antioch but by 1958/ (19)59, I was going to all sorts of certain colleges and by 1960, I was going to the state universities. And it was the most important job I ever did in my life. I could have kicked the bucket in 1961. And my job was done. A raft of young songwriters came along, who could sing better than I did and make up better songs. They took over people like Bob Dylan and Bill Oaks and Buffy St. Marie and Joni Mitchell. And now there is not dozens of them. They are literally hundreds if not thousands. 41:51 SM: When you look at the ̶ explain a little bit more what it was like going to college campuses in the 1960s. I recently saw on television and I think you may remember that you went to Great Valley High School near outside Philadelphia. Do you remember that? 42:12 PS: No, I do not. 42:12 SM: Well, it was, it actually was on there ̶ it was quite a few years ago and they had it on their little TV station of your visit there once. What was it your feeling of going from campus to campus in the 1960s and even into the 1970s. Did you feel ̶ 42:35 PS: I really delighted in it even though occasionally there were a bomb threat and but I'd sing a song and there would be a loud boom in the middle of the song because I said something they disagreed with and then the guy who made a boo was thunderstruck because at the end of the song, it was a thunder of loud cheers and the guy who booed said what is happening to our country with traitorous pops like that are, actually, given [out] from the stage. 43:13 SM: Is there any way ̶ you mentioned that you have done thousands of concerts. But obviously there may have been one or two that stood out. Is there one or two concerts that you did on a college campus that stood out and what year was that? 43:34 PS: I told you, my voice started to give out. I wanted to have a concert where the audience could be heard so I had it especially miced with microphones over the audience. And if you go to Smithsonian Folkways Records, ask for a CD called Sing Along. It was made at Harvard College. Harvard had a medium sized auditorium with thousand seats, a nineteenth century wooden auditorium, Sanders Theater. Had wonderful acoustics. I had microphones placed all through the audience. So, my microphone might be tuned up during the first when I was singing the first but when it came to the chorus, they tuned me down and tuned up one from the audience around we did when we mastered it, right. We had sixteen microphones. Get that record and I will and show you what I did back then. 44:51 SM: When you ̶ when did the (19)60s begin in your opinion and when did it end? 44:59 PS: Oh, I do not know it depends on your definition of the (19)60s, would not be fine. What happened at Oberlin ̶ some kids I have talked to in high school or grade school in Manhattan now they are in Oberlin, and they wrote me a letter that we have got the Oberlin folk song club, and we have got the basement of the art school such and such a night. Can you take a bus out here, we will pass the hat, and I am sure we will make the bus fare and we did? We got about $200 a little over two-hundred people. Well, the next year I went back to Oberlin and sang for five hundred in a chapel. And the next year I came back and sang for thousand, in the large auditorium, which took the whole college could get to and I used to go back there every year until I got too busy and could only go back there occasionally. 46:05 SM: What were the qualities you most admired in the young people of the world? They grew up in the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s. And how are they different than any of the other youth of the other eras that you performed in? 46:22 PS: Well, they joined in. So, I did well. They stood up to the - they stood up to the authorities if they tried [yes]. Allegheny college ̶ I sang there once, and the students want me to come back. 46:54 SM: Oh, wow. 46:55 PS: They tried to stop it ̶ he said, I am trying to raise money for this college. Seeger coming here makes it very difficult for me to raise money. So, I suggest that you not have Seeger come back. And the students put up a big fight, they said it was academic freedom. What do you mean that we cannot have him come back? We want him to come back. And finally, the president of the college had to back down. And he said, the alumni I am sorry, it is academic freedom. I could not stop them. I tried. 47:33 SM: What year was that? 47:35 PS: That was around 1958. 47:38 SM: Oh, my gosh. I you know, that still continues today in higher education. Oh, my God. 47:47 PS: Goes on all the time. President Gideon, Brooklyn College said that I would not sing on the campus as long as he was president. And I did not. When he finally retired in 1965. I went to sing on the campus, the very next year (19)66. 48:09 SM: If there is one event that you feel personally ̶ now you are ninety years old and I really admire you for your longevity and your continuation of giving back and influencing young people to do good. And the question ̶ which is, you know, sometimes so many young people are afraid of that to do that or to do that for there might be a price one has to pay. But who, what if there is a specific event that happened in the (19)60s in the (19)70s, or even when ̶ what had the greatest effect on the boomer generation, what do you think that might be? 48:51 PS: It might be the fact that I did not get on TV. I broke the blacklist one or two times when I had written this song called Waist Deep in the Big Muddy ̶ getting out of Vietnam. The song did not mention Vietnam. It did not mention president Johnson by name, but everybody knew what I was singing about. I told in the allegory– “It was back in 1942, I was a member of the good platoon. We were on maneuvers in Louisiana. One night by the light of the moon. The captain told us to ford the river. That was how it all began. We were knee deep in the Big Muddy, But the big fool said to push on. The song went on until the captain is drowned. Well, I am not going to point any moral, I will leave that for yourself. Maybe you are still walking, you are still talking You would like to keep your health. But every time I read the papers, that old feeling comes on; we were waist deep in the Big Muddy and the big fool says to push on.” It was censured out of the show. And I was on the Smothers Brothers program. They took their complaint to the to the press, paper printed media. The CBS is censuring up the best jokes and censuring Seegar's best song and finally after three months CBS said it okay you sing it and this time, I sang it for seven million people. 50:43 SM: I saw that, I watched the Smothers Brothers and what was your thought on not just what they did toward you in on television but what they were trying to do to the Smothers Brothers, the show. 50:58 PS: Well I think what they learned and what I learned is you do not have to reach millions of people if you could reach some. And I am completely convinced that if there is a human race here in hundred years, it will be because of millions of comparatively small things. I really mean this. You know, the great praise the great Du Bois, the biologist, said think globally, act locally. You have heard that yes. And Schumacher said small is beautiful. Margaret Mead said never doubt that a few committed individuals can save the world and the fact that the only thing that ever has. Who knows, I say God only knows but I put it this way. This is my mantra. The agricultural revolution took thousands of years - the industrial revolution took of hundreds of years. The information revolution is only taking decades. Use it, use the brains God gave us. Who knows, what miracles may happen in the next few years. 52:21 SM: Very good point that two different words I want to say, the word healing and the word trust are often linked to the boomer generation, the era of the seventy-four million that were born after (19)46 up to (19)64 - issues of trust because the lack of trust in the leaders that they saw lie to them in many respects and number two, healing because of all the unbelievable divisions that were in America back in the in the (19)60s ̶ some people said that we might even have another second Civil War. Your thoughts on the influence this may have had on this entire generation and how do you think they are dealing with it today? 53:10 PS: [This man you are talking about thing?] 53:12 SM: No, I am talking about the boomer generation, the whole issues of trust and healing within this group because of the ̶ 53:20 PS: My own feeling is that often radicals are overconfident that they that they know all the answers, whether they are anarchists or socialists or communists or whatever they call themselves. And I think the big mistake in the in the communist movement was mistaking Lenin. He said, in 1905, we lost the revolution of 1905 because we were not disciplined. If we are disciplined, just like an army is disciplined we will win the next revolution, and it is true, they took power in 1917. But they believed in discipline. I often quote, a German communist Rosa Luxemburg, who said, wrote a letter: Dear Comrade Lenin, I read that you have censorship of the press, and you restrict the right of people to freely meet and discuss their opinions. Do not you realize that in a few years, all the decisions in your country will be made by a few elites? The masses will only be called in to dutifully applaud your decision. And I think if it had not been Stalin, it would have been somebody else. But the thing which has saved our country, generation after generation is that extraordinary first amendment constitution. 55:00 SM: The presidents that had the greatest influence on the boomer generation are John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, and probably Ronald Reagan. How would you ̶ what are your thoughts on them? 55:14 PS: Well, of course, they are very different. But all of them made compromises. As I say, sometimes the compromise worked. Sometimes they did not. I think probably president, ex-President Carter probably regret some of the compromises that he made. 55:42 SM: Okay, final part of the interview is just basically responding to a couple terms, words. You do not have to give very long responses, but just your overall gut level feeling when you hear these words or terms. Watergate. 56:02 PS: You make a compromise you can regret. 56:07 SM: Kent State and Jackson State. 56:13 PS: I am increasingly convinced that the world will not survive unless we learn from Dr. King. 56:27 SM: Go in greater detail there. 56:30 PS: Well, way back at the beginning ̶ he said various times in his life, the most important speech he ever made was the speech he made at the very beginning of the bus boycott. He said, we will win this boycott if we are nonviolent. Non-violence is it is ascending spiral, with violence you can murder the hater, you just increase hate. Darkness cannot drive out darkness, it takes light to do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, it takes love and I think I would say respect. 57:16 SM: So basically, Kent state was the result of certainly a lack of communication, Jackson State too with the loss of student lives. But what was those were monumental events for that particular era because you saw violence. A couple of other things, the Vietnam Memorial, what does that mean to you? 57:39 PS: For violence, you might consider this, according to anthropologist and I think they right, all of us are descended from good killers. The ones who were not good killers did not have the descendants. This was for hundreds of thousands of years. And then in more recent times, we learn how to use words, we use learn how to use the arts. I compare a song to a basketball backboard, and it bounces back new meanings when life bounces new experiences against it. So, the song John Henry might have simply been about a strong man. Later I realized there is a tragedy to it, even humor to it at times. And so, a song can mean different things at different times. And the arts, all of them are important including the art of cooking. And Tommy Sands, the great Irish singer brought back Ireland together by song fest when he was a child. You should read his book. Tommy Sands, S-A-N-D-S. The book is called Song Maker. Came out about five years ago, four years ago. And when he was a child, he came from a family where their idea of a good time was to get some beer and invite the neighbors and sing all night long. And they saved up their money, they could get a barrel of beer. And now they invite the neighbors in, and it did not bother them that their neighbors are mostly Protestant. They were Catholic, but they just sing all night long. So, Tommy, some six years ago, rented some theaters and in different parts of Ireland he invited the leaders of the south and the leaders of the north in for a song fest. And he let them know they are both going to be there. But he says, “It is not politics at all.” We were just going to sing all night. No politics, no politics, just singing. And they sing all night, not just one or two hours, but three or four or five hours. And then, at the end of the day they started talking with each other, they still will not shake hands. They cannot that we cannot do it, but they are no longer trying to shoot at each other. Tommy Sand has brought an island together with singing. 58:12 SM: I got to get that book too. You are very well read. 60:46 PS: I am a readaholic. 60:47 SM: Well so am I, I got about ten thousand books, I am constantly reading. But you are able to really grasp the meaning of all the books and ideas that you have read and be able to put some dots to them and linkage. A couple other things ̶ 61:05 PS: Two recent books, have you read the book, Blessed Unrest by Paul Hawkin? 61:13 SM: No, I have not. 61:14 PS: Hawken is a small businessman, but he is an [economist]. He is spoken at like thousand places in the last fifteen years. And the words blessed unrest was spoken by Martha Graham to the young dancer Agnes de Mille ̶ and all of us artists are filled with a blessed unrest, trying to reach the infinite and of course never making it but never giving up trying. Paul says, how is it that the largest movement in the world is taking place and nobody predicted it ̶ what is the largest movement ̶ all the little things that are going on in small business, the smallest nonprofit groups, small religious groups, all artistic groups, all sorts of small things, often locally, in my hometown of Beacon, fourteen thousand people. There was a race riot thirty years ago and some women started a block party they call the "Spirit of Beacon Day. It is always the last Sunday in September. And they send invitations to every church, black churches, white churches, synagogues, Muslim mosque, and in recent years, a Hindu temple, the Latino Pentecostal, and every service club, the Lions, the Kiwanis, the American Legion and so on. And everybody has a table on the sidewalk. Usually a piece of paper telling when they meet what they believe in. And they often have food and serving ̶ this drink it is only fifty cents. This sandwich is only $1. People walk up and down Main Street, sampling the food from different places and listening to different kinds of music, hear music. It is a big group from a few hundred to thousand to two thousand to four thousand. Now it is up to ten thousand in a town of fourteen thousand. Of course, there are probably still four thousand saying, they are going to hell. 63:48 SM: Well, I just might trip up to Beacon to see you that day and see all the people that the swim across the Hudson. 63:54 PS: If you ever come to Beacon do come on the last Sunday in September, it rains. It is the first Sunday in October. 64:03 SM: Well, maybe I will. Just in my one trip to Beacon I fell in love with the place. I fell in love with the people because of the fact ̶ and I love the cause of saving the Hudson. Just seeing that ̶ it just ̶ may be that is a very positive that in things that you have done, and maybe it is the smaller things that we do not often recognize that are making great impacts. And maybe the boomers are a lot of them are involved in this. A couple of terms, the Vietnam Memorial. Jan Scruggs wrote the book, To Heal a Nation. What do you think the Vietnam Memorial in Washington has done? Is just basically healed our veterans or has it done anything with respect to healing our nation from the war? 64:48 PS: No one thing could change everything, but I think it changed a lot of people's opinion. 64:55 SM: All right, and also your thoughts on the Students for Democratic Society, and the Weathermen and Vietnam Veterans Against the War ̶ those very big anti-war groups? 65:09 PS: I, myself, [aware of bigness] even big organizations. I would like to deal off small organizations. I was against that big thing in Madison Square Garden. I have to admit, they handled it very well. They had very good sound, and very good lights and so on. And a wonderful singing audience. But when they put it on the air, August 1, they did not show you how beautifully the audience was singing. All you could hear was the soloist. 65:46 SM: That was your ninetieth birthday. Yeah, well, that was an honor. That must be. A couple more people here just to respond to ̶ these are personalities now. Tom Hayden, just quick thoughts on each of these individuals. 66:02 PS: Way back thirty years ago, nice guy. 66:07 SM: How about Jane Fonda? 66:10 PS: Likewise, I met her even before then when she was hardly out of her teens, briefly married to some guy in Russia. 66:20 SM: Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, so the Yippies. 66:24 PS: Well, I met Abbie, late in life. And we got along very well. In the beginning, I was arguing with both Abbie and Jerry, that the things you are going to do everything with young people. I think you got to work with all ages. I work with little kids now if you are in my hometown. 66:46 SM: You know what is interesting, Pete, is that it was Jerry Rubin that coined the phrase do not trust anyone over thirty. Did you ever talk to him about that? Because what is interesting, when I read his book, Do It ̶ he was twenty-nine. He was one year away from being thirty. So, I never understood that. 67:05 PS: Well, I laugh at that, you have to laugh at slogans. 67:12 SM: Timothy Leary. 67:14 PS: I never knew him. I never met him. 67:17 SM: What you think of him? 67:18 PS: Well, I mistrust him, trying to solve your problem with anything you eat or drink. 67:27 SM: What did you think of the Black Panther leaders like Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Angela Davis, that group. 67:37 PS: They were very brave, but I believe in the slogan, it was an anarchist I knew, who he said, wait a minute, I am trying to remember- love, truth, bravery. You need all three. Oh, no, of course my memory is going I cannot remember this anarchist. He was a wonderful guy. This is the way back in the 1950s, he said this, "Love, truth bravery.” Love alone is sentimentality. As in the average churchgoer. True alone is, oh gosh I have it written down ̶ 68:37 SM: Yes. Okay. Couple other names here ̶ 68:42 PS: Oh, wait a minute, all three. Okay when it comes to bravery, bravery is foolhardiness. As in the average soldier. Need all three. And so, I think this was the problem that Malcolm had and the others. Bravery is not enough. You need the truth and you need love. 68:49 SM: How about your overall comment on Richard Nixon. 69:21 PS: I cannot remember. 69:31 SM: Richard Nixon? 69:32 PS: I thought he did not have truth. 69:35 SM: How about Spiro Agnew? 69:39 PS: I guess there he lacked truth and love. 69:43 SM: Eugene McCarthy? 69:46 PS: Well, I think the state he made was in again, not working broadly that you might not see, I would put in addition to truth, love truth brave, humor. Humor is one of the most important qualities the world needs. We may be saved by humor. 70:15 SM: Well, that brings me to the Kennedy brothers, John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy and certainly, John Kennedy, your thoughts on those two brothers? 70:26 PS: Well, it was an extraordinary family, an extraordinary mother. The mother had nine children. And she lived into her nineties. 70:40 SM: And she lost her ̶ 70:41 PS: Her husband's infidelity. Put up with all her various children's different ways of working ̶ 70:55 SM: How about George McGovern? 70:59 PS: George, wait a minute ̶ 71:02 SM: George McGovern. He ran for president in 1972. Senator from South Dakota. 71:12 PS: Oh, I thought I spoke about him earlier. 71:16 SM: That was Eugene McCarthy. 71:23 PS: You need all these different things. Of course, you need instant recount voting. Know what that is? Clinton turned down money with air. I was shouting obscenities ̶ that was his greatest chance to introduce America to proportional representation. I went to a school where we voted for the student council by proportional representation. We voted our first choice, second choice and third choice. And we had a good student council. And if Lani Guinier been kept in the cabinet, she would have brought this idea to the American people. Most people do not even know what IRB stands for, or proportional representation. But when I did not meet Clinton once about four years ago, he was at a meeting, and I tried to speak about it and he just clammed up. 72:39 SM: How about Lyndon Johnson? 72:43 PS: Well, he did one, some very good things. Voting right act. Voting right act, 1965 I guess it was. 72:58 SM: How about Robert McNamara? 73:02 PS: I have not read his book. I would like to say ̶ 73:05 SM: Well, he wrote, he has actually written five, but his last two would be the one you would want to read. He, the first one was ̶ 73:12 PS: I am willing to bet that his children got him to write the last one because they said, Dad, you cannot go to your grave without telling what you know. 73:24 SM: Right? 73:25 PS: Finally came out. 73:27 SM: In Retrospect came out in (19)95. It is called In Retrospect. And then he wrote another book, that followed and those were his last two. So, those were good reads. Just a couple more names and we are done. The women, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Friedan, the women leaders who kind of led the women's movement Still there. Hello? Pete you still there? PS: Well I think I have told you more than you need to know. SM: Okay. All right. Well, I am going to conclude with this. I will not ask any more names. But what is your final thoughts on the boomer generation, those young people that you have performed before? If you were, if the history books fifty years or hundred years from now or writing about them, giving an analysis, what do you think they will say, and your final thoughts if you were writing that book? 74:59 PS: Writing what book? 75:00 SM: Well, if you were writing a book hundred years from now on the boomer generation, what would be your final thoughts on them? What do you think history is going to say about them? 75:09 PS: I do not know enough about it to write. To you, I will say, I think they made the same mistake that many of us make when we have some success. Oh, we now know, we have the key to the future. Because we have won some successes. I mistrust the word t-h-e. I really do. The solution, the origin, the destiny. So, I would say that they made some made up the wonderful things done, but they made similar mistakes too many others. 75:57 SM: Do you think they had been a good influence on their kids and grandkids? 76:02 PS: My guess is yes, probably most of them. I get letters from now that I have got too much publicity. My own problem now I got too much publicity and life is very difficult, mail comes in by the bushel. And I have to add to it form letters. 76:22 SM: Okay, I want to thank you very much for talking to me today and it was an honor to meet you at Beacon a couple of weeks back. And all I can say ̶ I will be sending you a waiver form. 76:34 PS: I cannot remember when you were here ̶ 76:36 SM: I was here when the swim across the Hudson. And I interviewed you on the bank but then they kind of pulled you away to perform. And so, thank you very much. I will send a waiver form and certainly the transcript sometime in the next three months. And then I will get back to you for final okay. And also, I think I owe you a lunch. 77:03 PS: Oh no. 77:04 SM: Pete you have been you have been more than gracious. And of course, your sister is unbelievable as well because I interviewed her. So, you have a great day. 77:14 PS: Oh, my sister was born in (19)35. So, she is ten years older than the boomers. 77:27 SM: Yes but she still ̶ she came to our campus and she is the one that called you originally after I interviewed her on the phone to say talk to Steve. So, I really appreciate this Pete. 77:40 PS: Okay your first name is Steve? 77:43 SM: McKiernan M-c- K-i-e-r-n-a-n. And it was my grandfather was the minister of the first Methodist Church in Peekskill, New York. He died in 1956. He was only sixty-one years old. He had a bad heart, but he was the minister there from 1936 to 1954. And of course, I wish I could ask him about that Paul Robeson incident because, you know, I was too young he died when I was only eight years old. So, I you know, I just remember going to the church and of course the church burned down on - an arsonist burned the church down after my grandfather had passed away. So now they got this ugly looking, one level church in Peekskill, but first Methodist Church, but ̶ 78:33 PS: Did they burn it down because of his preaching? 78:39 SM: Oh, no, he had died and, but it was where my ̶ it was a beautiful church. And ̶ 78:45 PS: Why did they burn it down? 78:47 SM: Well, they wanted a new church. And I remember this whole issue after my dad, my grandfather is at ̶ 78:57 PS: That is kind of a dangerous way to get rid of a church. 79:00 SM: Yeah, well, my dad was very upset. In fact, my dad cried and drove into Peekskill after it burned down because they would just, they knew, they never caught the person who did it. But my dad grew up there, you know, as a young guy and he went off to World War II and everything. But you know, but the Paul Robeson in the news were involved in that incident as well. So, I would have liked to have talked to him about that. If I am in ̶ 79:30 PS: September fourth, sixtieth anniversary, the big Paramount Theater will have a program. I will be singing a couple songs, saying a few words on September 4, 79:47 SM: At what theater? 79:49 PS: At the Paramount Theatre in Peekskill. 79:53 SM: I am going to try to go, is that an evening event? 79:56 PS: It may be an all-day event, for all I know. 79:58 SM: Oh, wow. 80:00 PS: Go take a photo. 80:04 SM: Yeah, I have definitely had ̶ of course, grandfather's at Ferncliff. Along was his wife and kids. So, all right, Pete. Well, thank you very much. You have a great day and carry on. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 1 Microcassette Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Pete Seeger Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seeger, Pete, 1919-2014 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Folk singers; Human rights workers; Seeger, Pete, 1919-2014--Interviews Description An account of the resource Pete Seeger (May 3, 1919 - January 27, 2014) was a folk singer and a social activist. In addition to being a folk singer, he also wrote his own songs as he performed them to people. He wrote songs throughout the different time periods of history. For example, he recorded a 78 RPM album called <em>Songs of the Lincoln Battalion</em> with Tom Glazer, Bess Lomax, and Baldwin Hawes. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-07-25 ; 2009-08-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.112 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 80:25 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ed9b9f39b8458eec0f12ff50d5b7fd07.jpg af3555387f2ee7602fd77eb78b1e9bd4 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/22258b27b9ddea79791638bc75048364.mp3 0bd5b5fcb4e2263c4fe87e8602e90697 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-07-22 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Peter Coyote Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Peter Coyote is an author, actor, director, screenwriter, and activist. Coyote is also a narrator for his own films and for a plethora of other events including the 2002 Winter Olympics and various Historic films. He graduated from Grinnell College with a Bachelor's degree in English Literature and attended California State University for a Master's degree in Creative Writing.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:7043,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Peter Coyote is an author, actor, director, screenwriter, and activist. Coyote is also a narrator for his own films and for a plethora of other events including the 2002 Winter Olympics and various Historic films. He graduated from Grinnell College with a Bachelor's degree in English Literature and attended California State University for a Master's degree in Creative Writing.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 84:26 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;The New American Poetry 1945-60; Folk music; Beats generation; Bohemian; Jazz music; Rock music; Guerilla theater; Baby boom generation; Counterculture; Richard Nixon; Civil Rights; Diggers.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14281427}}">The New American Poetry 1945-60; Folk music; Beat generation; Bohemian; Jazz music; Rock music; Guerilla theater; Baby boom generation; Counterculture; Richard Nixon; Civil Rights; Diggers.</span> Subject LCSH Authors; Motion picture producers and directors; Screenwriters; Political activists--United States; Coyote, Peter--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Peter Coyote Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So Date of interview: 22 July 2010 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:04 SM: First question I want to ask is, you were still, you are recognized as one of the most well-known counterculture leaders in the late (19)60s and (19)70s. And I have several questions linked to that. Why did the counterculture and the activist boomers linked to the multiple movements of the time not succeed in changing society for the better? One of the things that even I recognized when I was a college student is that many of the boomers thought they were going to change the world for the better they were going to end war, bring peace, end racism, sexism, homophobia, all the isms that were just going to make the world a better place to live and save the environment and actually truly make a difference in the world to. I do not think they did that. What is your thoughts on the counterculture? 01:03 PC: Well, first of all, let- 01:10 SM: Please speak up to- 01:13 PC: Let us dismiss the idea that I was anyone's leader. I was part of an anarchic gang that did not recognize leaders, tried to be authentic, and we tried to follow our own counsel. So, I can speak as that I cannot really speak as elite. But the counterculture aspirations they talk about, were simply part of a long line of American reform. I mean, there has been reforming as long as there has been America. And while it is true, that the counterculture failed, and all of its political goals, it succeeded in every single one of its cultural goals. And by that, I mean, we did not end war, we did not end racism, we did not end imperialism, and capitalism, that, fair enough. I can also say that there is no place in America, you cannot go today and buy organic food, find a women’s movement finding in for metal movement, find alternative medical movements, find alternative spiritual practices, yoga, Siddhanta, [inaudible] Buddhism, you name it. So those were all direct outgrowth of the six that we succeeded in that so far beyond our wildest dreams. That was changes have become ubiquitous and invisible. And it is my belief, actually the culture, Trumps politics, that in the long run the way people live every day, Trump their ideas about political system? So, I do not, I do not chalk this all up as a failure by any means. Now, your question was, why did we fail? Well, failed for a number of reasons. One is that the idea of a counterculture in itself is a failure. It condemns you to mark formation. And we as being members of counterculture, we missed the opportunity to organize and gage relationship with a lot of people who did not want their kids around long hair and drugs and free sex, and all sorts of wholesale experiment. They just wanted a fair deal out of the economy out of this. And we missed those people. So today, if I were going to create a radical magazine, you know, I would never have I would never have a marijuana leaf or anything countercultural on it at all, I would make it look this like time in life. So that is one reason we fail. The other reason we fail is that we brought all of the problems of growing up in the (19)50s with us, just because we thought that we were against a lot of the mistakes that are fake that our parents made did not mean that we are absolved from the consequences. In other words, if you think that your parents were sexually repressive, and you decide that the cure to that problem is sexual license and absolute freedom. Well, you have created a whole bunch of problems. Have not really ever really solved any just shifted from the left and the right. And thirdly, because we were concentrating on great revolutionary goals, we were not concentrating so much on kind of interpersonal dialogue and requirements that are needed to live together. So, we did not have very developed vocabularies of interpersonal relationship. You know, if I wake up in the morning, and I like to wash my face in a clean sink, and you do not care if it is a greasy pit where you wash your hands after you have just dismantled an engine, there is no revolutionary philosophy I can, I can write, as a cause for authority as to why you should clean the sink. So things like that. And then finally, the emergence of children created pressure, all of our ideas that were not fully thought out, or were not, you know, humanly sound and the communal system per se, fell apart. But that is not to say that we traded in our values for our beliefs. We are still connected as family. My daughter and her children share friends that she grew up with, are now mothers, very self-consciously a part of that world and its history. So we look this like everybody else today with that thing. That means we can all work, but do not the culture and myriad places do not buy, what we do with our lives is immediately translated by other people. So that is the long answer. But I think it is a pretty complete answer. 06:50 SM: Yeah, I have asked a lot of people that I have interviewed, particularly in the last half of people I have interviewed to define the term counterculture, a lot of people have come up with different terms. But what-what most of them have said, it is more than just being different from the mainstream. My basically, what my question is, is counterculture culture, more than being different from the mainstream, having long hair, wearing bell bottoms and colorful clothes, taking drugs, living in communes, having sex with multiple partners, of course, the pill played a part of that, where religion went to new spirituality, and where one does not have to go to church and a feeling of more meditation than before. Are those all the definitions and what the counterculture was? Or is it much more? 07:39 PC: Well, they are not definitions, their descriptions. I think the short thing to answer was, for those of us who felt that the system of the United States and capitalism was crumbling over internal contradiction, we were going to try to create a parallel structure and parallel institutions that would offer people refuge, I guess the thing fell apart. So do that we had to do a lot of experiments. We did not know how to live. We did not know what rules were worth following and what were not. I mean, a law is in agreement with a stop sign up on the street corner. But if people do not honor it, it is not a law. So, we began looking at everything that created a system that we did not like the system based on profit and private property, enhanced by racism, turning the planet and some fodder for profit. We did not like it. So we began to try to invent one from whole cloth and you make a lot of mistakes when you reinvent the wheel. 08:51 SM: Around that time in the (19)70s, when you were out there in California with the San Francisco Mime Troupe, which I saw, and I thought they were great. I lived in the Bay Area from (19)76 to (19)83. So I know about Golden Gate Park and I missed San Francisco so bad. I may end up moving back up there one day, but one of the things about that particular time while I was in graduate school, there were several books that came out and I-I want to know what books may have influenced you. The two books that I am referring to that were very popular in college campuses around (19)69 to (19)73 was Charles Reich's Greening of America. And the making of a counterculture by Theodore Roszac. And I want to know if you have ever read either one of those two? 09:36 PC: No, I never read either one of those two books that the books that I read that really kind of turned me around. One was called life against death by Norman O. Brown. One was the entire Don Juan series by Carlos Castaneda. The other was called the Three Pillars of Zen by Philip Kapleau. And what was Alan Watts Famous? 10:08 SM: Well, he did a book called Zen. Yeah, I have that. 10:13 PC: Those were the books that most influenced me. 10:17 SM: Did you read any of the beat writings to from the mid (19)50s on? 10:20 PC: Lots of it. when I was in college, my bible was a book called New American poetry 1945 to 1960, edited by Donald Allen, published by Grove Press, and me and my friends just ate that book up. And one of the reasons I came to San Francisco was to study poetry with Robert Duncan, University of San Francisco's creative writing department. 10:52 SM: What is what role did the beats play in shaping the or being the precursors of the of the (19)60s? I say this because there is a question that I will be asking you later, you do not have to answer it now is, when did the (19)60s begin? And I have only had two people that told me that they felt the (19)60s began with the beats, your thoughts on how important the beat writers were. And of course, Ginsburg goes through the entire era from the-the whole period, he goes right up to the very end, where some of the other ones have passed on, very early. But what role did they play in shaping the attitudes of not only maybe many members of the counterculture, but many members in the new left, and the activist students of the (19)60s and (19)70s? 11:42 PC: Well, you know, when the when the Beats were coming up, I was a young man, I was 12, 13 years old. And it was I was starting to get interested to then folk music. And folk music was one of the vehicles that kind of took you off the bourbon sidewalk and into the kind of trackless wilderness of Bohemia. You started hearing music that sounded more authentic voices, stories, histories that were more authentic. And when you got out there, like Greenwich Village and Washington Square Park, and the place where music was being made. You also met older, Bohemians, and Beatnik. And you got turned on to literature. So, these guys were the first kind of formative adult, other than jazz musicians I would ever meet, who were kind of guides and intellectual mentors. So they were very, very important. And, I mean, preeminent among them, for me is Gary Snyder. Yes, who was not only remained one of my closest friends to this day, but also kind of informal Zen teacher and a mentor and a whole number of ways. Same for Michael McClure. Same Lou Welt was my roommate, Gregory Corso was a later roommate. Wow. Ellen Ginsburg was a friend. So these guys were, you know, sort of the first. First representatives of wisdom that I ran into. 13:25 SM: Do-do you, a word that is very important. Oftentimes, when you talk about people and what they do, and the perceptions that other people have of them, the perception that I have always felt is they were truly genuine. It was not a putt on. It was, it was a real engine just to make publicity. That was who they were it would you agree with that? 13:45 PC: Oh, without a doubt. I mean, anybody who would guess that this was all a canard for publicity, is really reflecting their own shabbiness of character. These people were making trenching and deep and the observed critiques of the culture, which was beginning to be corporatized and standardized. And there was there was a lot to criticize. 14:14 SM: One of the things I always ask of each guest is, how did you become who you are? I read your whole background. I know your whole biography. I have read the book. And- 14:25 PC: You read on book you read the story of how I became Peter Coyote. 14:29 SM: But I mean in in your own voice. [chuckles] The basic question I am asking is, what were the greatest influences in your life in your life’s path that if you were to look at from the day you were born till today, are there two or three or four major happenings that really shaped you with respect to who you are? 14:55 PC: Well, yeah, one of which was being raised by a black woman, from the time I was two until I was about 13. And she and her friend’s kind of took over our house, my mother had a nervous breakdown, she was unable to care for me. My father was away working. And this very brilliant young woman just kind of took over the household in a very beneficent way, gave me safety and structure and by traveling with her friend, and I got a whole look at a nonwhite world. Saved me from being a white man, I mean I am Caucasian, but I am not a white [inaudible] men. And so that was a huge introduction to kind of, you know, the life of people who were invisible to disenfranchise, I witnessed, you know, 100s of little insults and things that I would never have seen if she had not been like, my mother, and I was not so observant of watching the way people treated her. So that was a huge and formative influence. We are still close day. I am writing a book about her. I talk to her all the time. 16:18 SM: Oh, when that is coming out? 16:22 PC: I do not know. I am still writing. Okay. So there was that the second one was meeting the world of jazz musician, through a bass player named Buddy Jones, who was Charlie Parker's roommate for three years in Kansas City. And buddy with became a close friend of my dad, and he brought all of these great musicians to our house to play up in the country, out calm and do Sims and Irby green and Bob Dorough and just lots of them. And buddy became and I met these people and saw them when I was about eight or nine years old. And they were the first adults I have ever seen who loved what they did. I knew right then that that is what I want. I did not have the talent to become a jazz musician, which is what I would do if I had any ability to do that. There is nothing else I would rather do. But running around with Buddy, and he took me to hear Billy holidays last concert in (19)92. He introduced me to Miles Davis when I was in, wow. traveled around took me to it. I spent all of my birthdays at the half note, a club in New York on Spring Street. From the Time I was about 12 to 18 when I left home. And, you know, I heard everybody heard Charlie Mingus John Coltrane, Thelonious Monk, not only that, heard him with a guy who knew how to listen. That was a huge introduction into the life of an artist. And then, there were a lot of political people in my family. A lot of communists and socialists and left wingers. My dad used to play chess with Leo Huberman and Paul Sweezy, the editors of the Monthly Review. My mother's cousin, Irving Adler was the first man fired in the New York City public school system for being a communist. My mother was the secretary of the Englewood Urban League. And so I grew up in this rich broth of political debate and dialogue. My dad was a capitalist. And so some combination of sort of growing up under the tutelage of black people and hearing learning white political theory. I would say were the two formative and also something about the community of outsiders, which is what jazz musicians were in those days. That kind of formed my whole worldview. 19:12 SM: That is interesting. I am a big jazz fan. My brother in law just passed away and he was a jazz performer in the Bay Area for quite a few years before he moved back East. They played with a group called they actually performed at Henry's at the top in San Francisco, which was they were Casey and Angel and Craig was the drummer and the whole mess of the jazz guys came out to San Francisco in (19)73, (19)74. And then they many of them are still out there, Ray Lockley, King Koi whole group of them. 19:43 PC: Well, I used to be a drummer, I studied drums with Cozy Cole- Was a great jazz drummer in the (19)40s (19)50s, Big Band drummer. 19:53 SM: You know, they always you know, what they always say yeah, Peter about jazz musicians, is they-they grew beyond rock they had the experience of rock, a lot of them did. And then they went on to the next phase, which was jazz, which was improvisation and really the ability to be creative and to be your own person. And I am, it is- 20:13 PC: Oh, I mean, these guys were there before there was rock. Mm hmm. You know, I mean, they began, you know, these guys were out there in the (19)30s and (19)40s. They these were just world class artists. And, you know, data they are not they do not owe their genesis to rock and roll, right? I am so tired of the self-importance of rock and roll like a cute. 20:38 SM: Yeah, one of the things in San Francisco Mime Troupe is historic. And you were one of the not only directed it, but one of the leaders of the group. One of the questions I want to ask is about the whole issue of guerrilla theater, how important I do not know a whole lot about it. But when I was in college guerrilla theater was very important on college campuses, because out of nowhere, she would see these people come into the student union. And they would talk and do these little skits about the Vietnam War or civil rights, or, you know, what was happening in the world. And they come you never knew they were coming, and then they just leave. And I did not know how much how important the San Francisco Mime Troupe may have been in being the inspiration for these things on college campuses of Do you know? 21:26 PC: I think they were; I think the word guerrilla theater was coined in the San Francisco mime Troupe. And, you know, we, what can I say we were revolutionary Theatre Company. And we were trying to invent modes of performance and places to perform that were appropriate to what we were talking about. 21:48 SM: What-what was the actual goal was it to inspire people to think, beyond their everyday lives to make changes, or, you know- 22:00 PC: I have changed my thinking about that. But when we were younger, I think that we were following as re-found edict that the artist is the antenna of the race. That leads to a kind of arrogance. In other words, we thought we knew what was going on, it was our job to tell everybody else. But if you look at that for even five minutes, that that does not hold up. The truth is that everybody knew what was going on. They sense that it comes up on the planet itself. And the artists are the ones who can articulate. But if the audience has done not know what was going on, they would not find what you did funny or amusing or entertaining. They would not understand it. So, what they appreciate why they clap, and holler is because you are articulating something they feel but they cannot put words. So, you know, but I think our job was to try to explain issues clearly. Break them down into kind of bytes of understanding so that they would be they can be analyzed clearly. And hopefully that that would lead people to action. 23:16 SM: Do you think that the-the so-called status quo in San Francisco there is- remember reading there your book or some of the information I saw on the web that the artist liberation from that was very important around the time San Francisco Minecraft was trying to perform, or being prevented from performing at various locations that it was a threat to the status quo? And that was why there was such resistance. 23:43 PC: Oh, I suppose so. I mean, everything. I mean, I had to laugh. Years later, when I read about how paranoid Richard Nixon was about the counterculture. You know, we could not have overthrown a-a frosty free. Our intention was that, and I guess paranoid people take that, seriously. Yeah, we were, we were fighting the status quo. And they resisted with what they had available. The police- 24:18 SM: What I really liked about the mime troop and the gorilla theater in the Bay Area that she talked about and were part of is the fact that people could see it, and he did not have to have money. And in living in the Bay Area and going to theater there. I know how expensive it is and to be able to have artists who understand the people and that a lot of people do not have the money to go see these very expensive plays or, or entertainment acts. It was really way ahead of its time. 24:50 PC: Yeah, well, I mean, that was part and parcel of going to where the people were right. And it was also something essentially honest because if-if people do not like you, they are not going to pay. 25:05 SM: Right. Quick question now Grinnell College is a very prestigious school. I am a- my whole career has been in higher ed. And I am curious as to how you picked it. 25:16 PC: I did not pick it. I, I sort of was told by my guidance counselor that I was going to go there. I had already been in jail for trying to bring a lot of marijuana across the border. And you know, I thought I was going to go to Harvard or reed or one of these photos. And she said, no-no-no, I think I think you will go to Grinnell, and it turned out to have been an inspired choice for me. I did really well. 25:47 SM: You were President of Student Government. Yeah. And then what is really impressive is the experience you had in Washington where that organizing those massive protests that was, I think you had and just mailing out all the literature about it and think you had about 25,000 people there. Could you talk a little bit about this first mass demonstration and President Kennedy's response, and you are meeting the President? And I believe it was some forget the guy's name, McGeorge Bundy. 26:20 PC: Yeah, it was getting a little ahead. So, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, we thought the, we thought the world was going to end. And a bunch of us thought that banning college and class was counterproductive. And so, we organized a group of 12 people to go to Washington to do a three-day hunger strike and protest the resumption of nuclear testing and support Kennedy's geese rate. And we were pretty skillful about that. And so we got there, and Kennedy was in Phoenix. But he saw us on the sidewalk, supporting his peace race, and he gave instructions that we were to be invited in. And it was the first time in the history of the White House that any picketers had ever been invited in White Mountain, and that made national headlines. So because of that, we mimeograph those headlines, we duplicated those headlines. And we sent them around to every college in the United States. And it was after that, that the first student demonstration in Washington took place in February, I think of (19)63. So, they were different events. And I cannot, I cannot fully say that we created that. But I can say that we were certainly a part of it. And it was certainly a big kick off to the student movement. 28:17 SM: What was it like being on a college campus between 1960 and (19)64? This was kind of before all the-the anti-war movement was started in the (19)66, (19)67 was a kind of dead at Grinnell except for these activities you were involved in? 28:35 PC: Well, no there was a lot of stuff going on. And but you know, you have to distinguish sort of between before November 1963, and after November because once Kennedy was killed, suddenly there was a whole new whole new climate feeling. Things got really serious. But there was lots of political ferment. I cannot say it was dull. No, we were doing lots of political stuff. And there were student convention, you know, political conventions. Matter of fact, in sort of protest of the war at Bucknell college students’ convention. Kennedy was president Then and I actually got the convention to not nominate him. Going to nominate Hubert Humphrey, good at politic, and the dean of the college, put his foot down and intervene. Not going to be the only college in the United States that insult the sitting president. So that was sort of a political lesson right there about how much power it has. 29:59 SM: Do you remember exactly where you were? When you heard John Kennedy was assassinated? Could you explain? 30:11 PC: Yeah I do. I was going to lunch in one and the women's dorm at Grinnell at the name of the dorm but and a woman came running out to come here, listen. And I went in and started listening to the radio with her. And we heard about it. 30:33 SM: Were you like a lot of the people just watch TV that whole weekend? Yeah. You see how it is all shot? Yep. So many people did. Thanks. I want to, I asked a couple of people. Can you remember the two announcers that were present? One was NBC and one was CBS and they both passed on. Do you remember who? 30:53 PC: I mean, I have I have all that on tape. I do not. I do not remember who they were. But I remember their tan suit for you know, yep, I was serious at all. Look, and they were smoking. Interesting. 31:09 SM: What I am getting back to you lived in a commune for a while in the Bay Area, you had a specific community were involved in what were the pluses of living in the commune? And what were the negatives? And I guess that is the question. 31:24 PC: Well, the pluses of living in a commune were-were and remain that. It was cheaper, that you had many more people to divide up the rent. So you needed to make less money. And it was also fun. That was like being in a big, like in a dorm with all your friends. 31:51 SM: What was a typical day like, I would like to do that. Were you responsible each week of preparing certain number of meals, what duties you had been able to stay there? 32:01 PC: Well, nothing really, people kind of did what they wanted. It was not too later that that things have to get a little more organized when children came along. But at that time, we just needed a place to crash and sleep. 32:21 SM: You went on the road with a show called the minstrel show civil rights and cracker. 32:26 PC: Civil Rights in a cracker-cracker barrel. 32:30 SM: What was the message of the play? Why did people react negatively? And why was it banned is several colleges. 32:39 PC: Well, we were arrested, it was closed, because it was basically it was basically a look at race relations from a black revolutionary perspective. And it was also very funny and very battle logical and race was a very charged issue, and they could we made it easy for them to, you know, get distracted by talking about the-the dirty jokes and the foul language. But the real reason people were upset was because of the kind of political point of view basically came right out of Malcolm X's book. 33:25 SM: I mean, the autobiography of Malcolm X. Yeah. Look, college, you know, did the students book you and then they were told that you had you could not arrive, or you could not show up or what? 33:37 PC: Well, it depends where you are talking about in many places that happened. That happened in Canada where we were arrested. Some students turned to us in for laughing in the-the bathroom, they assumed we were on drugs. And we were not, and the police came, and they say, they searched our luggage, and they found some old marijuana seed, in the sock in the base of somebody's shoe, one of our technical guys. And they arrested him and the school canceled the show, and we held a big rally. And we pointed out that we have been hired by the students up this pool. And in the middle of that rally, they came in and pull the plug on the microphone and arrested two of the faculty members who were sitting on stage supporting us, I guess, because they had beards. We overlooked the six-foot six-inch, one eyed black guy and a six foot long stocking cap sitting next to them. We had to run away and get out of there and because we needed to make money to get on to the next gig and we were arrested and there was a long story. its told pretty clearly in my book. Yeah, and- 34:57 SM: Yeah, well what is, what is amazing thing is that being an administrator has worked on college campuses for over 30 years. Even in recent years there has been people where universities have done that, not to your groups like u but for speakers. And a whole battle over freedom of speech and the rights of students to bring a speaker still goes on and on. So what does the word digger mean? 35:27 PC: Well, the diggers were a seventeenth century group started by English pamphlets here called Gerard when family w y m f t l n e y. And they were a protest for when the it 18, I think it was Oliver Cromwell. Yeah, no, that was Cromwell was seventeenth century. 35:56 SM: Please speak up. 35:57 PC: I am trying to remember when Oliver Cromwell, what century he was. I said seventeenth century but yeah, he was just he was seventeenth century. Anyway. So what happened was the king of England took over the common where people graze their sheep. And King wanted to raise his own sheep or his woolen mill, his new woolen mill. So, they took the people's land and the people fought back on this guy [inaudible]. And they were the first people to take a position against private property. And they were called the diggers, because every morning they were seen bearing burying their dead. So we named ourselves after them. And the diggers were our kind of anarchist alternative to, you know, young communists and socialists, we-we did not want to be, you know, artists performing plays about heroic bus drivers and elevator operators. We wanted to live in a culture where we could be authentic. And we did not want to be subjugated from you know, centralized ideology. So, we created this movement. And when we did everything without money, we did everything anonymously, figuring that if you were not getting either rich or famous from it, you probably meant it. 37:40 SM: Yeah, it was. It was free medical care; I think in the summer (19)67. Because the Summer of Love, very historic event in Golden Gate Park and actually in the whole San Francisco area was, was big. And I know you had the free medical care and free housing free food for the runaways. 37:59 PC: Yeah, we fed about 600 people a day in the in the park. Wow. And we had lots of people at our free medical-medical clinic. It was pretty interesting time. 38:13 SM: Now the, in your own words, the Summer of Love, Scott McKenzie, that song that came out? Are you going to you know that one out? Are you going to San Francisco. I mean, a lot of people did not go out to San Francisco when they heard that song. Or it was an inspiration. But can you define what, whose idea was the summer of love? And then the second this in the 68th? the summer solstice, it was kind of a follow up the second year. Well, whose ideas were they in? What were they? 38:43 PC: The first idea like the be in, and you know, the Summer of Love, these were kind of ideas of what were called the hip merchant, but the hate independent propriety. And they were always trying to put this lovey-lovey spin on things. You know, that everybody, okay, and meanwhile, cops were coming in and kicking the shit out of the kids, in their doorways, and we were just not buying. So it was sort of their idea. And then the diggers came in. And we-we put up a bunch of we did the summer solstice. And our purpose was to, you know, create events that had a bigger frame, where the sun itself was the frame. He became quite famous for putting on events where kind of, you know, there was no violence. Nobody got hurt. When in fact, I think be in was turned out to be a great and surprising thing. And I think they were probably righter than we were that there was but the learned by seeing how many of us there were. But there was a lot of tension between the diggers and the-the Haight Ashbury merchants, because we felt that they were, they just wanted to, you know, change the facade on the office storefront, they had 88 inches of powder. And that was what they wanted to maintain, and they fell, you know, hash pipe. We did not think that was particularly relevant. 40:35 SM: Yeah, one of the things about that particular period is this, he talked about the Summer of Love the summer solstice, and all the things that the kind of the diggers did, there was no violence. It was all about more love and peace. But then- 40:54 PC: No-no it was not about love, it was just about if you create a frame where people are equal. For instance, this is what we warned them about our outcome, we told them what was going to happen at Alcamo. It cannot, it cannot come into a free community, and put up a stage and say, these guys are more important than those guys does not work. So, when they first came to us, the Grateful Dead wanted Peterburgs. And I to design a show for the Rolling Stones. And we said, you know, sorry, the Rolling Stones are not the occasion for a show, we will put up six stages in Golden Gate Park, and they can have one of them. And we will create an event that will celebrate, you know, something more important than local, celebrity. So what we did was we created these planetary events like the solstice or the equinox, which are not manmade, they are events under which everyone is equal. And within that frame, you can do whatever you want, and you are just expressing yourself authentically. It is not creating a hierarchical status, where the guys on stage are the most important than the guys who get closest to the state are most important. And you are basically replicating the status hierarchies of the society. 42:19 SM: That is very well put, because if you go on to the web, you see the Grateful Dead performing at one of your free events, well, on the streets, and it was very organized, and people were just walking by. And- 42:31 PC: it was before the record companies came in and started spreading around all this money they were just the guys in the neighborhood. So yes, of course they played. 42:42 SM: One of the things we need to talk about the real bit beyond what we are talking about here about the antiwar movement is that the antiwar movement at that particular time was pretty peaceful until we got into the latter part of the (19)60s, early (19)70s When SDS went toward the weathermen. And then why other people had problems with the Black Panther Party thinking they were violent as well, and the Young Bloods and the Latina communities, especially in Philadelphia, and in Newark, your thoughts on just that whole concept of, you know, Malcolm X, we have had a lot of, in my interviews, a lot of people had different feelings toward him, because of his words, by any means necessary, and so you can interpret any way you want. But some people think it is more well, by any means necessary means violence. I am not so sure if he meant that because I saw him in a debate with Buckley over in England, and I do not think he meant that. But your thoughts on when the movement went violent? 43:42 PC: Well, wait a minute. The movement? I mean, antiwar. Yeah, that that statement has so much push it. I do not know where America has been a violent country since its inception. 44:00 SM: Hold on a second. Let me change. Go Right ahead, I am back. 44:12 PC: It was founded in genocide. Let us just start with the eradication of 2 million indigenous people. Bounty still being paid in 1920 on that spoke about the 500 million buffalo that were wiped out. Let us talk about slavery as entry after Britain as made it illegal. Let us talk about let us talk about exploitation and enslavement all over the Third World. So then, when a cup a bunch of college kids who are morally outraged that we invade a third world country, and conscript them to go kill people who are not harming them are ignored long enough that they begin to fight back, you call that violence. We live in a climate of violence. And nobody talked about, you know, the 5000 lynchings that were going on of black people. But when Malcolm X stands up and says, by any means necessary, suddenly the niggers are getting violent. I mean, it is just insulting. It is insulting. White people can hang niggers from a tree. But let a black man pick up a gun. And the whole white world goes crazy. A black president is speaking. And you have got white guys walking around outside his speech, carrying guns, fully loaded weapon. And nobody is doing anything. Can you imagine what would have happened if it was a white president, and black guys were out there carrying their guns. So, if the movement got violent, it is because they got tired of having to shift kicked out of them being ignored, having murders created in their name and not being listened to. But they existed in and were trained by a climate of violence. So, to pretend if there is anybody in America, whose wealth is not based on violence, even if that violence is invisible, backed up by cop with truncheons, backed up with soldiers in the Third World, backed up with soldiers all over the world siphoning wealth off for America to pretend that we are not participating in the violence is an act of self-delusion and hypocrisy. 46:43 SM: Very good response. Thank you. When you look at the period of the boomers have been alive, and of course, the period boomers are defined as people born between 1946 and 1964. And I preface this by saying that many of the people I have interviewed 1/3 were born before 1946. Yeah, and many other people from (19)40 to (19)46. Have a, have an attitude that we are really boomers ourselves. And Richie Havens told me that, but in your own words, could you describe the years the boomers have been alive, based on what it means to be? Excuse me? Just these years, what they mean to you as a person? The years that the boomers have been alive from (19)46 to 2010. The first period is between 1946 in 1960, what did it mean, to be alive in that time? 47:50 PC: I mean, it is my entire life, but my life me. I do not know, it is everything. It is not a very good question. 47:59 SM: Well, the question I am trying to get at as I am breaking down periods of what, what, what it was like to be alive during these periods of time? 48:08 PC: You know, 1940 to (19)46, I was a little boy 1946, to about 1953. I was pre-adolescent. Starting at my adolescence, I started to become political started to listen to different music. But I mean, I just do not know how to. I just do not know how to grab that question. Yeah, it is just life, life is always just life, but it is always the same, but it always has the same elements that are recycled. [inaudible] percent 10 perfect free. Falling in love the first time, you know, having children getting married, growing old, dying. Political mischief. I mean, I just do not know how to answer your question. 48:58 SM: Yeah, I think that was what he was getting at. And the question is the difference between the (19)50s, the (19)60s, the (19)70s, and the (19)80s. As a generation what they- 49:06 PC: I do not pay up? Yeah. Really? looking at it from the outside. 49:15 SM: How do you respond to the critics that say that a lot of American problems today go right back to the (19)60s and (19)70s. And- 49:23 PC: They are too stupid to respond. Why and, you know, those people thought Bill Clinton was eight. Like trying to have a debate with a moron. What America's problems do not have anything to do with free market capitalism. They do not have anything to do with the post Roosevelt. Betrayal of labor. They do not have anything to do with the communist witch hunt. They do not have anything to do with the Treaty of Detroit and the disenfranchisement of working people is- are too stupid to pay up. 50:02 SM: I know that (19)94 when Newt Gingrich, when the Republicans came to power, he made some pretty strong statements against the (19)60s generation. And I know that George-George Will has oftentimes in his writings really likes to take jabs at the end whenever you can. And there is he could not read any of his books. And now I have an essay in there about it. George Will- 50:26 PC: Oh, he is another one is another niche for the CIA. These guys are unprincipled opportunists. They are people who are in the lifeboat beating at the people in the water with the oars. Why listen to them? 50:42 SM: Now, it is the other point of view. So I just get responses. 50:46 PC: Other point of view, there are 500 points of view. They pretend they are the other point of view, what they are is a center, right pro corporate capitalist point of view. I understand it to my bone marrow, I do not need to listen to them. 51:02 SM: when did the (19)60s begin in your-your viewpoint? 51:08 PC: I would say around (19) 56. Maybe. I would say like the middle of the decade. 51:17 SM: And when do you when did it end? 51:22 PC: Well, for me, it ended about (19)77. Maybe. 51:32 SM: Is there what was the watershed moment? 51:36 PC: Well, for me, it was losing the lamb that my come in was on my father died. The land was easy for debt. The you know, we could not we could not keep it up. And so suddenly, for the first time in a long time I was I was living alone is the nuclear family. 52:02 SM: I mentioned that the boomer generation is defined by educators and because I am from higher education, and they always have to look at generations. Whether it be the boomer generation, Generation X, the millennials. Tom Brokaw called the World War II generation, the greatest generation, but and this is kind of a general question. But the way I want to ask it is based on the people that you knew worked with, in many different capacities, the boomer generation, what are your thoughts on this generation in terms of maybe some qualities you think were some of their strengths and maybe some of their weaknesses? 52:51 PC: I do not pay any attention to this term, right? I think it is meaningless, But I would say that the strength of this group were that they grew up in a kind of economic security well of wealth after World War II, and it afforded them a kind of platform, and security in which to be experimental and buy things out. They grew up at a time where the adolescent culture was just emerging and becoming its own independent event. That gave them a kind of autonomy and freedom. Culture had not been reduced to quite a homogenized math as it is today. Rebellion has not been quite so effectively coopted. I would say the weaknesses were that, like, sort of all young people you think you are smarter than you are. You think that you know everything, and you think they are going to live forever? And you do not take care of your bodies. Those are their weakness. 54:32 SM: The term generation gap was very common in the (19)60s and (19)70s, between parents and their children. Did you have a generation gap with your parents? 54:44 PC: Oh, yeah, I really did. You know, in most cultures in the world, there is no such thing as adolescence. That kids when they become at puberty, they are taken out of the house of their parents. The girls are raised by the aunt. And the boys are raised by their uncle. And they do that because they have got real critical life skills they need to trim, and they cannot run the risk of, you know, Oedipal tension, stopping the kids from learning this stuff. So a young boy becomes the lowest status guy in the men's group, he gets this tools. And all of his imitative group energy, as an adolescent is focused on the adult, figures out who he wants to be like, who we want to imitate the who he does not. But in the kind of post war boom. Adolescents had their own spending money, they had their freedom, they had no responsibility, they were sort of kept out of the job market. So, they did not compete with returning soldiers and adults and unions. And they developed their own kind of culture. And it turned out to be a huge motive force and a capitalist economy. They had lots of disposable income. So huge that it, it determined the shape of the entire culture. So, it is sort of run today by people between 14 and 30 least run in terms of peaking their disposable income and their money and trying to get them to buy your product. The early new phenomenon. 56:31 SM: I interviewed a Vietnam veteran a couple of weeks ago, a well-known Vietnam veteran. And when I asked him this question about the generation gap between him and his parents, he immediately said, people talk too much about the differences between fam between moms and dads and their kids. But he felt very strongly that the generation gap within the boomer generation was between those who went to war, and served in Vietnam and those who protested, but mostly those who avoided the draft. So he was saying that the generation gap was really within the generation itself, your thoughts on that? 57:12 PC: Well, he is entitled to his opinion. And you know, if you felt it was immoral, if you felt that America had invaded another country, without provocation or cause, and you felt that it was a moral to go to their country, and so people, you would not call that just because somebody is in the armed forces. And just because they are following order, does not really make it service. And it does not exempt them from moral judgement. I was shot in the United States, I was beaten in the United States. So, I was also taking care of soldiers and we were passing out, only draft guards, the people on the free store and leave their uniforms and disappear out of the street. So I have a lot of respect for the military. And I got a lot of respect for people who served. But, you know, from my point of view, it was and remains an immoral war, we killed 3 million people trying to, we defoliated, the Plain of Jars in Cambodia. And we sent home young men with ghosts, and post-traumatic stress syndrome, and wounds that have lasted them the rest of their life. And they did it for them, you know, the Cold War ambitions of a bunch of old men. So let us not put more of a spin on it. then there is 58:55 SM: What do you feel established religion waned in the eyes of many boomers in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. And why was spirituality so important? To these same people, but in different ways. 59:06 PC: That established religion has become a handmaiden of the state. And it had separated itself from through spirituality. People had a hunger that they were seeking to satisfy. 59:23 SM: You in things I have read Zen Buddhism is very important to you. 59:29 PC: Yes, I have been I am an ordained Buddhist, and training now to be a teacher. I have been a Zen Buddhist for 38 years and I take this thing seriously. And, you know, less of religion than it is a way of living your life and practicing your life practicing kindness, compassion. I have never reached the bottom and unlike Judaism or policy ism or Islam, or always good to their own members and not so good everyone else who does not does not leave anybody out that like that. 1:00:13 SM: You feel in these 38 years, like it is really made you a more gives you peace of mind, meditation, I have a couple nephews are really in the meditation, they said that they cannot meditate they be well, they would be sick. So, they-they make sure they have an hour of meditation each day and they try to think about nothing except just to meditate the Zen, this has really changed your life in so many ways. 1:00:43 PC: First of all, that is not the way that we understand. You know, I probably be killing people, if I was not Buddhist. What being a Buddhist is, is basically studying the self? And, as great teacher Logan said, study the self, by forgetting I just I cannot think of another way to express fully what being human is by taking some time every day, and sitting still and checking in the- what is happening in my body and my mind. We are not trying to stop. We are just trying to detach from them enough, even, but not be jerked around by the mind is a gland using thought. When you meditate enough, it will go down on its own, but try to stop your thought of fanatic. So most people are afraid to build a very radical practice. But when you do that, it puts you in touch with what is really going on with your life. And your life is not so separate from the rest of creation. 1:02:15 SM: There is two examples that I think that most of the boomer generation saw, particularly in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. One was on college campuses, and the other was just in the news, the Beatles and how they be changed so much. And when they went to, I guess, forget the person that they went to over in India, then the Allen Ginsberg traveling through a lot of college campuses, and she came to three campuses in my area, Ohio State, and he just chanted the entire two hours he was in the room and one heck of an experience it was a spiritual happening is what it was. 1:02:57 PC: Yeah. Well, he was he was introducing people to spirituality. 1:03:05 SM: One, one question supporting them asked everyone is- 1:03:09 PC: I am starting to get tired. 1:03:12 SM: Okay, yeah. What? I have about 20 more minutes, is that okay? 1:03:17 PC: Let me just look at my calendar. Well, let us see how quickly we can get I have an appointment at one o'clock. Let us see how fast we can get through this. 1:03:29 SM: Okay, you are- one of the questions. The advanced everyone, that group of our students took a trip to Washington, DC in the mid (19)90s. We went to see Senator Edmund Muskie. And the students came up with this question after seeing films on the (19)60s and particularly in 1968. They said the question they wanted to ask the senator was based on all the protests that were happening in Chicago in (19)68. And the question went like this, due to all the divisions that were happening in America at that time between those who supported the war and those who were against the war, those who supported the troops and those who did not, between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, and then they also brought up the-the riots that were happening in the cities. Do you feel that the boomer generation is going to go to its grave, like the Civil War generation did not truly healing due to the tremendous divisions that took place at the time that they were young? And a lot of these issues and they thought he was going to answer based on the crisis in Chicago in 1968, but he did not answer that-that way. But I want to get your response to this whole issue of healing. If you think this is an issue? 1:04:55 PC: Well, there has been a fracture in American life No, there have been those people who want unfettered access and liberty to do whatever they want to have been those who think that the government should be a mediating influence for Berna [inaudible]. And that fracture has been in America since the founding fathers. It exists today between, you know, are conservatives and liberals are big boulders, and so they represent points of view, but they are never going to go away. So, I am not sure that America has any more fractures than it ever was. I mean, they started a civil war, to protect slavery. How fractured was that? So, you know, I think that we call unresolved arguments fractured. But that was assuming that it was hold. It was never hold. America was created by millions of indentured servants came over here, and owed their employers, seven years of their labor. You know, there is a, there is a guy named doubt, wrote a book called The Twisted Dream, which marked the history of America. And it is eye opening to read. Because, you know, if you were paid somebody stick it over here, you had his labor, seven years, to build your barns and your mills and your greeneries and your dams, and amass you all this wealth. And when it came to vote, who are you going to vote for? So, I do not think that anything that involves human beings is ever old. I think human beings are always fractured and independent, even when they ascribe to some great overarching political philosophy, just looked at religion, look at the way religion fragmented in the face of the Enlightenment, and suddenly had, you know, Calvinism and Methodism and press theory and they are just all reflections of different points of view on any given issue. And that is what human beings do. That is what the world is. So, I do not know, it is worse now than it ever was. I do not know. 1:07:31 SM: Senator muskie did not even respond about the (19)60s in 1968. His responses that we have not healed since the Civil War due to race, the issue of race and then he said, he actually died six months later, he was not well, and we were lucky to have the meeting. And he said he had just gotten out of the hospital, and he had seen the Ken Burns series, how we lost 430,000 people almost lost the entire generation of men. Back then, particularly in the south, so he says the issue of race, and he did not even talk about (19)68. 1:08:06 PC: Yeah, well, I think race is the big one. I agree with him on that. You know, I think a lot of what you are seeing today is the kind of panic of previously privileged white men realize that they are being submerged under a kind of new lotto tide and they are freaked out about it, because I am sure they imagine all these people of color plotting some hideous revenge on them for their persistency. 1:08:36 SM: What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you because it has played – it has certainly played a role in healing men in the Vietnam vets and their families and lost loved ones. But when Jan Scruggs wrote the book to heal a nation not only was his goal when not only was the walls’ goal to heal the veterans but to play a part, even a small part and healing the nation from this terrible war. Your thoughts? Have you been to the wall? 1:09:05 PC: Yeah, so indescribably sad. It is so beautiful. You know, I am one of those people that thinks that the way you support the group is not the sentiment of a stupid war. And my heart goes out to each and every one of those people who serve both the survivors, those that fell, you know, nobody survives a war. The way they went in, they come back scarred, they come back having seen extremes of human behavior, they come back having done things that nobody should ever have to do. And for those of us who can see it, beforehand, we are out there on the streets shouting and screaming and people think it is about politics. But it is about the soldiers I mean, you look at Afghanistan and Iraq today, what is it? One half of 1 percent of the people are making these blood sacrifices, so the rest of us can shop. It is fucking hideous. It is obscene. See, you know, and people think you want to get the troops out of there, you are against the group. I want these kids to come home with their arms and legs and their brains and their, you know, passion and their generosity and their hopefulness. They do not even know why they are there. Yeah. So, you know, healed we did not make the wars. But people that resist the wars. Yeah, we are one side of a fracture, I suppose. But do not blame me. 1:10:52 SM: In your in your view. and I am getting a lot of different opinions on this. Why did we lose the Vietnam War and, and wha- and George Bush, the first said in 1989, the Vietnam syndrome is over? Which is this war still with us as a nation, in mind and spirit? 1:11:14 PC: Well, I think, you know, I think the Korean War, morphed into the Vietnamese War which morphed into the Iraq War, which morphed into the Afghanistan war, they were all in the service of an empire They were all in the service of bracketing or protecting wealth to bring home for the mother country. So, I do not know that Vietnam is still an issue except among those who fought in it. But the underlying issue of empire and policies which you know, bombed the wealth of other people, they are still, they are still operating. And I think the reason we lost the I think the reason we lost the, or, because we had someplace else to go, most people had nowhere else. So they would never quit. And that is why we are not going to beat the Afghans. They have no place else to go, where they live. And they will fight and they will die there forever. And eventually, the body count will get high enough that Americans will say. 1:12:25 SM: that we. Yeah, this is a two-part question. It can be sure. What can we learn from the (19)60s in the (19)70s? And secondly, what is the responsibility of the artist? And what role should they all artists play in times of crisis? And I, I prefaced the second question, part of the question, based on the fact that in recent years, entertainers had been attacked, as you know, your entertainer should keep your mouth shut and just entertain. And as if entertainers do not are not a part of the American citizenry. That guess the first part, what do we learn from the (19)60s and (19)70s? 1:13:07 PC: Well, let me just let me talk about it is the height of hypocrisy. You know, there are huge industries which are dedicated to everything that entertainers do. They are a magazine devoted to who their fucking where they shop, how they decorate their home, everything, except should they open their mouth about a political opinion? They are herded back onto the ranch. Now, why do you think the simplest answer to that would be is because their real function is as marketing brands. And when they venture an opinion, they divide the consumer base. You know, if they say Democrat, you are going to lose the Republic. If you say Republicans, you are going to lose the Democrats. And so everybody is using and harnessing the charisma of celebrities to sell ship. But God forbid that the celebrity should harness their own courage to talk about something that so, you know, that, that the two edged sword if I have the charisma to sell, or to be exploited by other people, I should certainly have the ability to exploit it and use it myself. So, there is that and what was the other part. 1:14:42 SM: Of just what-what did we learn overall from the (19)60s in the (19)70s? Nothing. Okay. You made replicating. 1:14:51 PC: The same mistakes in 2010 that we that we made in the (19)70s. 1:15:00 SM: You made reference that you have a problem with the term the boomer generation, and I am telling you I have a problem. 1:15:05 PC: With it-it just does not describe anything to me. 1:15:11 SM: Well, I am finding from the majority of the people I have interviewed that they do not like, they do not like generations being labeled. 1:15:18 PC: That well, we did not make it up. It is going to with some media term, right? We did not call ourselves hippies either. 1:15:26 SM: One of the qualities of the counterculture is that money is not important, or at least I. And in a lot of the in the question is, and again, another criticism of the boomer generation, not so much the counterculture, but the boomer generation is that, well, some of the wealthiest people are now our boomers who had were idealists, and now have gone on to make a lot of money. So, they are no different than any other generation. How, how credible is the fact that that is one of the qualities of the counterculture is that money was not important. 1:16:04 PC: Well, it is hard to live in America without-without money. So, but it just stuff, it was not important. It just was not going to be our organizing. 1:16:24 SM: I-I-I know you are tired. And are there? I have other questions here. But I will ask you. Are there any questions? I did not ask you that I thought I was going to that you thought it was going to. The last question I have is what do you think the lasting legacy will be the-the best history books are often written 50 years after an event 50 years after World War II, the best books came out. But I think good books are coming out every year on any every topic, but it is the thought that what do you think? The historians the sociologists, the writers will say once the last Boomer has passed away, what do you what do you think they will say about this generation that that was that grew up after World War II? 1:17:24 PC: Something stupid. Something stupid, you can count on it. I mean, I do not know what they will say, I do not care what they say I am, I collect my letters, along with Barry Snyder, along with Michael McClure, along with a bunch of people, I give them to the University of California, hopefully to give original sources a future historian, you know, so that my generation and my time is not defined by other people. Not an original observation to say that history is written by the winners. So, we have tried to create a body of literature and stuff that would at least describe the world the way we saw it the way it felt. That is all I do. 1:18:27 SM: You have any final thoughts you want to say on anything? On the boomer generation? 1:18:32 PC: Yeah, I do not know. I mean, you have asked really good questions. I do not mean to be cranky with I am sorry. 1:18:38 SM: Well, no, Peter, that was exactly because you have a passion. I can hear it in your voice. 1:18:47 PC: And I guess what I feel is that one of the reasons I became a Buddhist is because the endless debate and discussion does not seem to lead any does not seem to lead to wisdom does not seem to lead to anything but opinions. Borrow. And I would rather day make a sandwich for a hungry person. And debate hunger. I would rather take in an orphan and wash them and debate federal policy about orphan just where I have come to in my life. 1:19:32 SM: And you notice I have not asked one question about your years in Hollywood and all your movies. So I appreciate that. Because you a re much more your every year of what is the word, I want to use your if you lose quite a life, that ss all I have to say. Well, thanks and-and I will keep I will keep you updated on where I am at. interviewing 200 people. I will be transcribing all the interviews. Wow. I am doing it myself between September and April and then you will get a copy of the I guess I will send it to your assistant. You will have a chance to read it and make sure it is okay get the approval to printed I am going to need two pictures of you for the top of it. 1:20:24 PC: Let me give you, my email. 1:20:25 SM: Okay hold on one second let me write this down. Okay. 1:20:31 PC: It is Peter at W D like David 1:20:38 SM: [inaudible] You said Peter at WD light. 1:20:46 PC: W, D be like David. Okay. Yep, P like Peter R like Richard. Oh, D like david.com It stands for Wild Dogs Production. Okay. So that is my email. If you send me an email I can email you back a photo or something. 1:21:08 SM: Very good. Well, thank you very much Peter. 1:21:12 PC: Thank you very much. 1:21:13 SM: You have a great day. Thanks a lot. Night. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 1 Microcassette Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Peter Coyote Description An account of the resource Peter Coyote is an author, actor, director, screenwriter, and activist. Coyote is also a narrator for not only his own films, but for a plethora of other events including the 2002 Winter Olympics and various Historic films. He graduated from Grinnell College with a Bachelor of Arts in English Literature and attended California State University for a Master's Degree in Creative Writing. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Coyote, Peter ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors; Motion picture producers and directors; Screenwriters; Political activists--United States; Coyote, Peter--Interviews Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-07-22 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.11 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-01 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 84:26 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fef00cbff6579b4d66b7d49cbb60f1ec.jpg 370736aae2bfee75b91e7c7b173a3d5a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ad702399ce88deb7805e51d36c31f867.mp3 896f22a18c05296ccab313f2719ccf90 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-04-23 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Peter Goldman Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Columbia, Journalism, Baby boom generation, Racism, Bourgeoisie, Self Expression, War, Silent generation, Yippies, Brown v. Board of Education, Thurgood Marshall; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, Black Panthers, Segregation, Liberals.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13228792}}">Columbia; Journalism; Baby boom generation; Racism; Bourgeoisie; Self Expression; War; Silent generation; Yippies; Brown v. Board of Education; Thurgood Marshall; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X; Black Panthers; Segregation; Liberals.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 187:25 Subject LCSH Journalists; Goldman, Peter--Interviews Biographical Text Peter Goldman is an author, editor, and journalist. He was the national-affairs writer, senior editor, and team leader of a special-projects unit for <em>Newsweek</em> magazine. Goldman wrote over 120 cover stories on race, politics, Watergate, criminal justice and other aspects of American life. Goldman additionally generated a half-dozen books, including the best-selling <em>Charlie Company: What Vietnam Did to Us</em>, and won numerous awards for the magazine. Goldman has a Bachelor's degree in English Literature from Williams College and a Master's degree in Journalism from Columbia University. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Peter Goldman Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 23 April 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:07): Testing, one, two, three. Testing. Testing, one, two. Okay, good. I will keep double checking this to make sure this is working. Thanks again. Mr. Cohen, could you give me... Peter, I apologize. Could you give me a little bit about your background, where you came from originally, your parents, your college, your schooling, and how you chose journalism as a career? PG (00:00:40): Well, I will start with the last one first. I chose journalism as a career when I was probably eight years old and at the time wanted to be a sports writer at eight or nine, and just never changed. The sports part of it changed totally obviously, but I knew that is what I wanted to do. Ask me why, I do not know. But as a child, I was a reader and attempted to be a writer. I have the old-fashioned composition books with mottled-color covers and I would be writing all the time. My dad, when he was single, he came from St. Louis, had a graduate degree in economics, but he wanted to be a writer and so there may be a genetic connection there, and he actually had a fair start as a freelance. He sold some stuff to Mankins Old American- SM (00:02:15): Old American, yep. PG (00:02:19): Was talking to the New Yorker about writing a Wall Street letter for the New Yorker. But when he got serious about getting married and having kids, he decided that is not a stable life. At the time he was living in Greenwich Village, so he joined a stockbrokerage and was off to a hot shot start in that when the depression happened. He had a bumpy time for a while and wound up willy-nilly in the shoe business. He and my mother met in the '20s with both of them living at Greenwich Village. My mother had some talent as an artist that she never really attempted to pursue professionally. For a while during the depression, she was supporting the family working in the books department at Macy's. Department stores in those days actually had book departments, and rather good ones actually. They were pretty good bookstores. That was until my father found his way into the shoe business first as a retail manager then and other aspects sort of corporate side and then finally in his later years as a traveling salesman. Where am I from? That is a much more complicated question you want to know. I was born in Philadelphia. In between birth and my second year in high school, I lived in many places is the simple way to put it. If you want them all... SM (00:04:44): No, that is fine . PG (00:04:48): We finally came to roost in the suburbs of St. Louis, which had been my father's hometown, and I went to high school there, went to Williams College. SM (00:05:01): Great school. PG (00:05:04): At the time, I was not especially happy there, but that is a whole another story. SM (00:05:08): Was James McGregor Burns there when you were there? PG (00:05:10): Yeah-yeah. They had a great faculty, a great teaching faculty actually. They put more stress on teaching than on publication. It was not a publish or perish school. SM (00:05:26): Right. PG (00:05:26): I was very happy with that part of it, but it was a school with a lot of problems. A lot of it was essentially ruled by fraternities. It had next to zero Black students that had a very clear quota of Jews, and if the fraternities had clauses and I saw one of them, it was standard for the fraternities. It is limited to white Americans of Christian persuasion, which meant the rest of us were outcasts. If you were one of the outcasts, you had a hard time with extracurricular stuff. SM (00:06:31): Now, what years were you there? PG (00:06:33): I was in the class of (19)54. I was there from (19)50 to (19)54. Then I went to Columbia Journalism School, which was a one-year graduate school program, and then I went back out to St. Louis, worked for seven years at the St. Louis Globe Democrat, which is now defunct. One of those years I spent at Harvard on a fellowship. Then (19)62 I got married to a New York newspaper woman. We met accidentally at a murder trial in Boston and courted for a year and got married in (19)61, moved to New York in (19)62, and I went to work for Newsweek at that point. Stayed at Newsweek on active duty for 25 years and have continued to do work for them ever since. Took early retirement in (19)88, but since then I have done work for them usually on presidential campaigns. SM (00:08:04): Obviously from all of your scholarship and your work and your writing from the book on Malcolm X to your book on the 12 young African American men- PG (00:08:14): [inaudible]. SM (00:08:15): That project, certainly Vietnam veterans as they came back, of course many of them were treated poorly upon their return to America and some of your other early books that looked at the African American experience in the (19)40s, (19)50s and the (19)60s, can you say that maybe that experience of being at Williams College and seeing discrimination and exclusion really sparked something in you and then you wanted ... Well, how did your interest in African American issues develop? PG (00:08:51): It was another childhood phenomenon. When I was in grade school in New York, my last four years of grade school, I went to a private school that was progressive in both senses of the world. It was progressive educational philosophy, but also politically progressive. For a great school library, they had an amazing library, and I found my way to just willy-nilly to some books about the Black experience. The one that had the most powerful impact on me was Howard Fast's Freedom Road, a novel about the Reconstruction Era and the betrayal of the Reconstruction Era. It just had a huge impact on me. This is not right, this is not fair. The school was good background music for that because it was a recurring subject. As eighth graders, we got to write our own class play and it was about Jim Crow in the south and the part that everyone wanted and I did not get was the Black character, the Black protagonist. I got to play Senator Bilbo, who was the outrageous segregationist senator from Mississippi. Had to play him in short pants. SM (00:11:04): Oh my God. PG (00:11:17): Got laugh from some of the parents. So I really think that was the origin. My sister and I went around collecting signatures to allow Blacks into Major League Baseball. This was obviously before Jackie Robinson, that would have been (19)45, I guess. We got neighbors to sign petitions. So, it has been an issue with me essentially for all my whole entire life. SM (00:11:58): When you were doing that, was that just before Jackie went in, it was (19)47? PG (00:12:04): Jackie went to the Montreal Royals who were the Dodger farm team in (19)46. This was before that, it was (19)45. Our petitions had pictures of six Black ball players who would certainly have been qualified. Jackie Robinson was one of the pictures. SM (00:12:30): Probably Monte Irvin was in there and Larry Doby. PG (00:12:33): I do not remember the others. Satchel Paige was one. (00:12:44): So, it has been with me all my life, continued in high school. I continued to be fascinated by that, did a lot of reading. To me, the Williams experience was just an example of the unjust practice. You are in college for four years, you spend seven classes from the people who were seniors when you arrived to the people who were freshmen when you left, and I think during that whole time we had three Black Americans and one Black African, and two of the three Black Americans were essentially basketball mercenaries who flunked out in freshman year. SM (00:13:49): I have a lot of questions on Malcolm and some of your other books and your experiences, but the Boomer generation are those born between (19)46 and (19)64, and I have tried to make sure that I am inclusive here because someone early on in the interview process said they thought that Boomers were white men. That is the first perception they get. Then they said, well, maybe white women too. And I said, no. Other people say, when we talk about the 74 to 78 million Boomers, we're talking about all Boomers. Black. PG (00:14:27): It was one of the things I was going to raise with you. SM (00:14:27): Oh, yes. PG (00:14:27): If you had not raised it. SM (00:14:27): Oh no, because I want to make sure it is for everyone. That is why in all these different interviews when we talk about the break ... well, people used to go to church in the (19)50s and then church attendance went down and the African-American family was also fairly stable in the (19)50s and then in the (19)60s, the African-American family as well as many white families and the [inaudible] went up and all the other things. I am trying to connect everything here. It's for all groups, it is for Latinos, Native Americans, which I am trying to include here by getting different perspectives. The Asian American experience is very difficult because they were not in any anti-war activity and they were almost non-existent. So that is one group I am not sure if I am going to really be able to do well on. But what I am getting at here is when you think of that period between 1946 ... I break the periods for Boomer lives all 63 years now, Boomers are now 63 in the front-runner and the youngest is 46. PG (00:15:32): The Tea Party is the last Boomer movement. SM (00:15:35): Yeah. Well you may be right. I do not know what the average age is, but- PG (00:15:44): The average age ... The Times just did a full issue, which if you have not seen you ought to look at, which has a pretty good typology of the Boomers. I do not know if it was the average age or whether it was the location they used was 45 and up, but they are Boomers. The great majority of them are 45 and up, which would make everybody 45 and up as a Bloomer. SM (00:16:23): Did it say whether they were more conservative or more liberal? PG (00:16:27): Tea party people? SM (00:16:28): Yes. PG (00:16:28): Oh, much more conservative inherently. It is a conservative movement, got strands of racism, but I do not think that is the driving force. It is kind of a classic revolt of the petit bourgeoisie I think. It is the angry. They are economically better situated than the average. SM (00:17:10): They are the haves more than the have-nots. PG (00:17:11): They are more the haves than the have-not. They are the have-some, I would think. SM (00:17:18): I have not kind of pinpointed it. Do you feel also that they are more against those Boomers who were protesting in the (19)60s? That group, I do not know, do they shun them? PG (00:17:32): I have not seen data on that, but I doubt that they would have anything in common. It is interesting that the Tea Party movement does not seem to have violent feelings on the so-called social issues, which were the culture war, which has been typical of our slightly earlier past. The [inaudible] and standing in front of Republican conventions anywhere in the middle of a culture war. These people seem to be more Ross Perot rebels. Anti-government, anti-tax, anti- deficit. As I say, I think there is a strain of anger that we have got a Black president, but I do not think that is the central of that. SM (00:18:35): I have noticed that if you watch Mike Huckabee, oftentimes he takes shots of the (19)60s a lot. Of course, Glenn Beck does too, but I do not put them in the same category. I know that when Hillary Clinton was running for President, John McCain liked to make some comments about her, even though they are friends, that she is from the (19)60s and those kinds of comments. We all know what Newt Gingrich said when he came into power in (19)94, he made some commentaries about that era even though he is a Boomer, and certainly George Will oftentimes in his books will have a little segment about that period. Even Barney Frank, who I am a big fan of, we brought students to him, he even wrote in "Speaking Frankly," a book that came out in the (19)90s that the Democratic Party had to get away from the anti-war, those movement types and the George McGovern types, if the party was going to survive. And he is a Democrat. PG (00:19:36): Yeah. Well, I mean, my own feelings about the Boomer politics of the (19)60s are somewhat mixed. I think the most consequential Boomer movement was Black rather than white. The civil rights movement, when it really exploded in the (19)60s, starting with the sit-ins and the Freedom Rides, that was young, Black baby boomers, college students and people slightly older than college age. To me, it was a more mature movement than some of the later whiter movements. More politically mature, accomplished more, and generally stirred the country I think. It made it impossible to be overtly racist. That did not happen overnight, but we have evolved to a point now where in polling, it is impossible to measure racism because everyone who's polled knows there are certain things you do not say. SM (00:21:39): It is subtle of everything. PG (00:21:40): Yeah, yeah. It did not make racism impossible, but it drove it underground. They had political successes, like the Civil Rights Acts of 1964, 1960, the Voting Rights Act of (19)65, the engagement of the federal government, the war on poverty. So, I think that of all the movements, that is the one I most admire. The anti-war movement, I completely sympathized with it, but I do not think it was a mature political movement. I think in fact that the Boomers who were of fighting age really split in two directions. Boomers fought the war, young Boomers. Boomers opposed the war. The Boomers who opposed the war, I think were what we classically think of in an oversimplified way as who the Boomers were, privileged kids from suburban backgrounds, college-educated and deeply into self-expression and deeply against fighting the war. I am a member of the Silent Generation. I was in college when the Korean War was happening. There was no movement against the Korean War. There were a lot of reasons for that. The Korean War was in the penumbra of war, it happened five years after World War II. World War II united the country almost wholly, about as close to wholly as you can get. In the penumbra of that, people did not question wars. If the country called, you served. But we were not Boomers. We were the Silent Generation and we just shut up. SM (00:24:53): We’re not The Beats part of that though? We’re not the beats part of the silent? PG (00:24:57): Yeah, certainly in age terms. When I was in college, I was enamored of The Beats. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That I was must reading for me. Kerouac, Chandler Broussard, Ginsburg. Yeah. SM (00:25:19): Pearl Kennedy. PG (00:25:19): Yeah, Pearl Kennedy. I was an English major and was very much taken with them. Part of the reason I was taken was because the degree to which they were white writers, but they intersected with the Black culture and adopted some of its language, some of its style. But I think the Black movement, the Black boomers very strongly influenced the style of all the subsequent movements, including the anti-war movement, the women's liberation movement, which consciously adopted the Black style of protest, the music, the march, the demonstration as an expression. I think the American Indian movement, about which I am not very well educated, but I think they borrowed heavily from the Blacks. So, to me that was the most con-, and it is not just because of my particular affection for Black America, I think it was the most consequential Boomer movement. SM (00:27:12): I think the gay and lesbian movement also took a lot from the civil rights movement. PG (00:27:17): Yeah, definitely. Yeah. SM (00:27:18): And even the Chicano movement, although the Young Lords tried to copy in Philadelphia the Black Panthers. PG (00:27:27): Yeah-yeah. SM (00:27:27): Now, when we are about the Boomers now, we are talking- PG (00:27:32): Just parenthetically, it is movements like the Young Lords, the Black Panthers, the Black P. Stone Rangers, that to me is not mature politics. The SDS to me is not mature politics. What do you accomplish if you blow up a ROTC building? What do you accomplish if you blow yourselves up in a townhouse in Greenwich Village? What did the Symbionese Liberation Army accomplish? Politics to me ought to have a reasonable prospect of gain or chance of gain or a realistic assessment of the possibility of gain for the common good. It should not be just self-expression. Abby Hoffman smoking dope and wearing an afro is to me, not- SM (00:28:50): I mean that is the hippies. PG (00:28:53): Yeah-yeah, yeah. SM (00:28:54): I have been interviewing some of them, so... PG (00:28:56): Yeah. Good. No, they belong in this project. SM (00:29:01): The Hippies and Yippies. I always have to check this to make sure. It is a crazy tape player. What is fascinating me, because actually, this particular area is the greatest interest in my life because I had an African-American professor at Ohio State University, Dr. Johnson. I was there in 1971, (19)72, and all these things were happening, and African American issues have always been very important to me. I did internships in prisons for prison inmates. I have spent my whole life really caring about this issue. Man, monumental. We had Dr. King celebrations every year for 33 years, wherever I worked to honor him. We have had a tribute to Bayard Rustin, and we have had a tribute to Jackie Robinson, but what I am getting at here is, what's interesting is if you look at the Brown versus Board of Education, I would like your comments on this, Thurgood Marshall, Jack Greenberg, they were the types that, it was more of a gradualist approach, and Dr. King was challenging. He loved them, but he was more, "I want it now. I do not want to wait." PG (00:30:16): The fierce urgency of now, which Obama used this quote. SM (00:30:20): So, he wanted it now, and I know some of the big four, not even as much as Dr. King, but then you have Stokely Carmichael challenging Dr. King, basically saying, "Your time has passed." Even Malcolm debating Bayard Rustin, I believe in (19)64, telling him, "Your time has passed." So more Black power type of a- PG (00:30:45): They debated each other several times. I saw Malcolm debate several people, and I think the only one who held his own required Bayard Rustin. Rustin was really good. It's very tough to debate Malcolm X, who first of all is very gifted at argument and second of all, the case for the prosecution is a whole lot easier given the history of race in America is a whole lot easier. The prosecution case is a whole lot easier to make than the ... Rustin was not arguing the defense, but he was arguing the defense of a strategy of one step at a time. Malcolm was arguing for essentially millennial strategy, give us [inaudible]. At the time he debated Rustin was before his conversion to traditional Islam. SM (00:31:53): Obviously, Malcolm died in (19)65. He was 39, just like Dr. King. I find that ironic. The irony that they both died at 39, both at the hands of a gun. PG (00:32:02): Yeah. SM (00:32:02): That they both died at 39, both at the hands of a gun. But do you feel that Malcolm was the inspiration for the Black Panthers and people like that? Because when you listen to Stokely Carmichael, or H. Rap Brown, or Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Dave Hilliard, that whole ... Huey Newton. I mean they were, Kent State's having their 40th remembrance ceremony, Bobby Seale's going to be there. There was a link between Black Panthers and SDS, and before, the Weathermen. Just your thoughts on those personalities, and Bobby Seale too. They were personalities. [inaudible] they were serious. PG (00:32:49): Yeah. There is an arc that was happening here, starting in Montgomery in the middle (19)50s, through the demonstrations led by King, not only by King, but king is the sort of cover boy of the movement. There were a lot of people that I regarded [inaudible]. He was the most prominent one. Which, and the first incarnation of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, which began as kids sitting in lunch counters. Its early members were, a lot of them were students studying for the ministry, believed in the doctrine of nonviolence. Believed, not in integration, but in desegregation. And I think sometimes movements get hung up on semantic difficulties, but I think that is, that it really is a difference. Integration meaning it is better for Black people to be in the company of white people. Desegregation means you cannot legally, that separate but equal is not viable. And the SNCC kids were younger, more radical than the people of King's generation. King, some of the field workers in King's organization, the Southern Christian Leader Leadership Conference, were also young and radical and being radicalized by the movement. Same with CORE, Congress on Racial Equality, which I had been a member of in the (19)50s. Did a couple of sit-ins before they were called sit-ins. SM (00:35:31): Were you with. James Farmer at all or? PG (00:35:33): I never, I was in St. Louis and it was during summers in my college years. I knew the local leadership. SM (00:35:44): Right. PG (00:35:45): Farmer was a distant and lofty figure. I did not meet him at ... I met him years later. SM (00:35:53): I knew when Roy Innis replaced him, or Bruce Wade McKissick, I believe. PG (00:35:57): McKissick. SM (00:35:59): And then after McKissick, Roy Innis. PG (00:36:00): Yeah. SM (00:36:00): Oh my God, it is not even in the same league. PG (00:36:07): But I think there was, even as the, even while the so-called mainstream civil rights movement seemed to be making progress, engaging the Kennedys, sort of. The Kennedys were quite timid, but Jack was obliged to say finally, for the first time by any president, this is a moral question. Lyndon embraced it wholeheartedly. So, they did what King urged them to do, which was to catch the conscience of the nation, and by doing that, make it politically impossible, make themselves a politically irresistible force to the people in real power. That worked. But a couple of things were going on. One was the increasing discovery, particularly among the younger movement people, that this all had to do with segregation in the south, that the real problems were much more difficult. The problems in the north, which was widely supposed by liberals, by white liberals to be the promised land, was not really the promised land. It had different forms of segregation, and they were not written into law. But housing segregation, which in turn led to school segregation and prejudices not much different from what you found in Alabama or Mississippi. They were just quieter. So, there were, with that discovery, that the relevance of what the mainstream movement had been doing was beginning to seem less important. And second was there was a, the doctrine of nonviolence began being called into question by people in the movement. Because there were too many funerals, was the way the young field workers in the movement expressed it, "I have been to too many funerals." And the doctrine of the non-violent movement was that you cannot defend yourself, or so it seemed to be. Malcolm arrives as a public figure in the early (19)60s. He becomes visible first, I think, on a program, TV program called The Hate That Hate Produced. I am not sure of the date. I think it may have been 1959, in fact, that looked at the Muslim movement, the Nation of Islam, with considerable horror. And Malcolm was one of the people, I think Mike Wallace [inaudible], I think he did. And Malcolm was an extremely, as you know, an extremely articulate spokesman for that point of view. And Malcolm's level of political sophistication even at that point was rising. He was straining against the bounds of the teachings of the Nation of Islam in this matter. Elijah Muhammad, his preaching was getting to be more speechifying and more politicized. So, by late 1963, he is still a member of the Nation of Islam, but he did, one of his most famous speeches was called Message to the Grassroots, and it is wholly politicized, and it is wholly a critique of white America and of the non-violent movement. And he often forgets to attribute the teachings to the ... He had ritually, practically every sentence, in his past, he had, practically every sentence would begin, "The honorable Elijah Muhammad teaches us," such and such. In Message to the Grassroots, we do not hear much about the honorable Elijah Muhammad. So he was on, no matter what the cause, we know why he was first sort of suspended, then sort of shut down entirely and why he broke. But I think he was destined to break anyway because he was on this arc. As he gets on this arc, he begins to influence local ... This is way too much detail for you. SM (00:42:35): This is important because he was a major influence. PG (00:42:39): He begins to influence first the more militant local leaders in, people who were leaders in Cambridge, Maryland, for instance, Gloria Richardson, a number of others around the country. And in fact, the Message to the Grassroots was at a conference they had put together, and he spoke there. They called it the Conference on Grassroots something or other. So that is his first audience outside the orbit he had been in. And then he begins influencing the younger SNCC people, and SNCC is beginning to come apart at the seams, the people who were committed to something like the King doctrine, non-violent direct action- SM (00:43:52): The John Lewis types, yeah. PG (00:43:53): The John Lewis- SM (00:43:53): Julian Bond. PG (00:43:55): Julian Bond, yeah. Another good example. And they're moving toward Stokely, and Rap, and Willie Ricks, who was, a field worker, who was probably the first person to utter the slogan "Black Power." SM (00:44:16): Oh wow. PG (00:44:17): On the Meredith March, which would have been, was that (19)65? SM (00:44:23): Wow. PG (00:44:24): I am a little rusty on my dates. And that became the battle cry of the younger, cutting-edge movement. That, there was a direct influence of Malcolm X on those guys, the Stokely and the Raps and the SNCC workers particularly. And from SNCC it spreads into CORE. So, CORE, which had been called to Congress on Racial Equality, began kicking out its white members. SNCC kicked out its few white members. And King is moving more toward different issues, to the annoyance of the, what you might call the right wing of the civil rights movement, the Urban League, the NAACP. He begins talking about the war and about and about economic as against purely color problems. So, what we are seeing in that period is a radicalization, we are seeing ripples in a pond flowing out. SM (00:46:09): Right. PG (00:46:13): And it was affecting everybody, including King, who in the general public impression was the teacher of peace and nonviolence. SM (00:46:33): Even on college campuses in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, there was the split. And... PG (00:46:38): That is my experience. SM (00:46:48): Yeah, a couple times the [inaudible] came off today, even before, on the other side, I do not know why. But around that timeframe, many African American students were instructed to not protest the war anymore, you need to concentrate strips solely on issues of African Americans. And that is when they had big afros on college campuses and the real tensions when there were separatism, particularly in (19)71 and (19)72. I taught at Ohio State, and you cannot find, except for one picture of one African-American student at Kent State. PG (00:47:23): Yeah. SM (00:47:24): They were told to stay away, and "Your cause is not Vietnam. It's African American issues." So, this might be a continuation of it. PG (00:47:34): Yeah, I thought that the, actually, I think the style piece of that happened as part of the Black Power movement. The afros, Black is Beautiful, which to me was a crucial development. The idea that Black is Beautiful. Malcolm taught that the worst crime the white man ever committed against us was teaching us that we were inferior. And we believed, and that was the demoralization of the race, which limited its possibilities, that it had... SM (00:48:40): Right. PG (00:48:41): Great and potentially glorious possibilities. But that if you wake up in the morning and look at yourself in the mirror, and you have accepted white standards of beauty among all the other white standards, that you're, it's not healthy mentally. So, I think the Block is Beautiful business was-was more than just a slogan, and I think the afros were more than just a style. It was an assertion Block is beautiful. SM (00:49:28): I know at Ohio State it was intimidation too, because you could sense it. And I was not really involved in this at Ohio State as a grad student. I will tell you a little bit more about it after the interview, because there is this thing I want to tell you about what happened at the Ohio Union, which is kind of historically, Glen Llewellyn was then the director. When you look at that, what does it mean, By Any Means Necessary?? Is that the call to violence? Is that the call to say that non-violence will not work anymore, so pick up a gun. If the cops are going to do something else, we're going to do something to them? PG (00:50:11): Malcolm, I think when Malcolm used it, it was meant to be mysterious. It was meant to be suggestive. Watch out for us. And it was not, he never, to my knowledge, preached aggressive violence. But he believed very strongly in arming yourself for self-defense. But he kept an ambiguity that was partly ... He was very politically, he was very gifted of political rhetoric, but he was also under legal advice to sort of watch it. The Smith Act was still in force, he could be tossed in the slammer for advocating the overthrow of the government by force of violence. SM (00:51:23): I have been looking, in preparation for this interview, looking at some of the tapes on YouTube of Malcolm. And I find that, and also, I found this with Abby Hoffman, the people that may not have liked his politics, but they liked him personally. I get a sense from Malcolm X and from Abby Hoffman, I do not like Jerry Rubin, but people liked him. If you got to know them, when Abby Hoffman was in jail, they did not like the other members of the Chicago Eight, but they liked him, because he was funny, he had a sense of humor, and they liked talking to him. With Malcolm, the tape that I really liked was when he spoke over in England, I guess at Cambridge or Oxford. PG (00:52:09): Oh, the Oxford Union, the [inaudible]. SM (00:52:10): Yeah, that was, with Bill Buckley or whatever. I wish I could see that whole debate. But I think the students, boy, they were really listening, paying respect. But he had a sense of humor that was amazing, and how could you dislike him? And I am just seeing this from afar. And the other one I like, he responds to, he was being interviewed on a television show, it is actually in color, and they're asking him, "I would like to know your last name." It was Malcolm X. There is one on YouTube, and he tried to explain to him, "I do not have a last name." PG (00:52:50): Yeah, actually he did. It was Shabazz by that time. But he- SM (00:52:54): Yeah. PG (00:52:57): The doctrine of the Nation of Islam was, his name was Malcolm Little, and the doctrine of the Nation of Islam was what you think is your last name is actually your slave name, it was the name of your slaveowner. Which is historically accurate, in most cases. SM (00:53:16): You we're going to get into some Vietnam veteran issues here, but I think I already had your feelings on the Black Panthers and Black Power. I would like your thoughts on the 1968 Olympics with Tommie Smith and John Carlos raised their fist. We have had Tommy on our campus and he said, "I was never into the Black Panthers." PG (00:53:37): Yeah. SM (00:53:37): It was about black power. The second one was the 1969 takeover of the Cornell Union, remember, with the guns, and I think Harry Edwards was the advisor on that at the time. Those are major events. Some other ones, Freedom Summer in. (19)64, Fannie Lou Hamer, [inaudible]- PG (00:54:00): Which was not really called Freedom Summer by the sponsors, it was- SM (00:54:05): What was it called? PG (00:54:06): The Mississippi Summit. SM (00:54:07): Oh wow. PG (00:54:09): Freedom Summer was the name of a book by a white woman student, Sally Belford, who wrote her story of her experience. SM (00:54:18): Yeah, I think I- PG (00:54:18): It is quite a good book. SM (00:54:24): ...I have that book. Then of course, the sexism that was often in the civil rights movement, where women were second class citizens. PG (00:54:31): Yeah. SM (00:54:31): These are just some of the things that were happening to boomer African-American women in that timeframe. And I know Dr. King, if he were alive today, would be very sensitive about this, really. But just your thoughts on that, those things. The Olympics first in (19)68, I do not know if that had any impact on you at all, or was... PG (00:55:01): Not a large impact. I thought it was a gesture, it was fine with me. Again, I tend to separate politics that ... meaningful politics from the politics of gesture. I think that was the politics of gesture. They were entitled to do it, it was an act of free speech and a gesture. I just, I do not think it helped anything, but, except a segment of Black America responded positively to it. But I do not think it advanced the ball anywhere. The Harry Edwards thing, I did not really think about at the time. You mentioned the women in the movement being the second-class citizens. So that was a very real problem. And what I want to just dial back to, we have talked about the transition to Black Power and purging the young militant movement of white people. There was a guy named Bob Moses who was in the early SNCC. I mean, wonderful, bright, educated, just almost saintly guy. Was not Stokely or Rap, he was not in that bag. In fact, it was almost the opposite. But he talked to me once about, white volunteers would come down to the south and would walk into a SNCC office, and there might be, in Mississippi, let us say, and there might be a young Black woman trying to type a document and really struggling with it, struggling with the process of typing it. And the tendency of, as Moses described it, the tendency of white kids, with the best of intentions, best of intentions, would be to say, "Let me help you with that. I can do it. I can do it faster. I studied typing," and moving the Black kids out of the way. And that had an impact. It did not send Bob Moses out into the street yelling, "Black power," but it was part of a cumulative impact of, over a fairly condensed period of time, a couple of years. It was part of the flow that led to the Black Power Movement. SM (00:59:09): When you think of that period, there has been a couple books, a lot of Jewish male and female students went south. I know David Hawk, who I interviewed, who was on the Mo Committee, the Moratorium. I know that, well, [inaudible], who was at Berkeley in the free speech movement, certainly Abby Hoffman. He went down there, and then of course they brought these, a lot of these ideas back to Berkeley and the free speech movement. Mario Savio actually was down there as well, in the summer. So, you saw this young people coming together. What I also liked about it was there were Catholic priests, there were Jewish rabbis, there were young people. And I know the relationship between Rabbi Heschel and Dr. King is something that needs to be pursued a lot more than it has. I think the relationship that those two men had with each other, and the criticism that they both received within their religious communities for their stands against the war in Vietnam are historic. And of course, he died young too. He looked like he was older, but he was not that old when he passed away, Rabbi Heschel. So that is the period, and that, boomers that were really influencing, and then a lot of them became part of the anti-war movement, and they went into the women's movement, and where all the other movements, there is a lot of links here, how important civil rights is to the boomer generation. PG (01:00:50): Oh yeah, no question about it. One of my ambivalences is that for some of the white kids who carried those influences back into various aspects of the struggle, there was a strain of wanting to be white Negro, so far as some of the [inaudible]. My view of the anti-war movement is perhaps heretical. I mean, I am glad they did it, I was rooting for them. I do not think it ... And that the war made it very difficult for Lyndon Johnson, literally difficult for him to leave the White House to go anywhere other than a military base in his last couple of years. Is that productive politics? I have mixed feelings about that. But I think the popular sentiment that ended the war was the sentiment of the families who were sending their kids to be cannon fodder. People in the anti-war movement were finding ways out. They were getting college exemptions, they were moving to Canada. They were hiding, they went underground. And so, I have always had a lingering question, it is not an issue, it is not a suspicion, but I have had a lingering question about the degree to which the motivation for a lot of what happened in the anti-war movement was self-preservation, not wanting to go to Vietnam and get trashed. The parents of the kids ... I wrote in the introduction to Charlie Company that the anthem that marked the turning point politically, that told us that the war was no longer sustainable, was not Give Peace a Chance, which was... PG (01:04:02): Give Peace a Chance, which was Anne and some of the student anti-war movement, the young anti-war movement. It was a Country song, Ruby, Do not Take Your Love to Town. A song by Mel Tillis. And it is the ballad of a quadriplegic veteran who's come home and his wife is straying, he's no longer sexually capable, and his wife is straying and he's stuck in bed and pleading with her not to go out and winding up saying, if I could move, I would get a gun and put her in the ground. That song, when it was first recorded, went nowhere. Two years later, it was number one on the Country Charts and high up on the National All Purpose Charts. That told me something very profound that Johnson and then Nixon had lost the faith of the people, of the people who had classically supported the war. That dear honor of- SM (01:05:44): I have seen ahead. A great movie. PG (01:05:50): Some of my friends objected to the closing scene in which they're gathered around the table and they start saying, God bless America. But that is unrealistic because look what it did to their family. I think it was exactly accurate. There are people who believe, a lot of people who believe that when your country calls you answer the call and you may die, your sons may die. But that that is part of being an American. And then when you lose those people, those tend to be working class people. People who really were not looking at much of the future beyond high school or maybe high school and community college or junior college. In the North, kids who were going to go to work for the auto plant or the steel mill, where their dads worked. In the South, where there's a strong military tradition. I think they are the people who entered the war and they did not have a movement. They were not out in the streets, but it was clear in polling that they were gone or that they were going. That that support was happening, made it impossible. I think it finally turned Nixon into Nixon, and probably Kissinger into, we got to find a way out of this thing with saving face. That we have got a weakness, is not supported. We cannot keep this going. SM (01:08:10): Some of the music of the (19)60s that really were the inspiration, obviously after Kent State, four dead in Ohio, which we will be hearing that in a week from now, a week from tomorrow, I will be there. And they will be playing that a lot because that was a very popular hit by Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young. And then you had Country Joe doing those songs that he wrote that are classic. And of course, she had John Lennon and his music. All we can say is Give Peace a Chance. And Bob Dylan and his music were anthems of the anti-war movement. PG (01:08:50): If God is on our side, He will stop the next war. And of course, there were anthems of the anti-war movement that I just do not think the, and I do not denigrate the contributions of the anti-war movement, but I do not think the anti-war movement ended the war. I think they helped, but I do not think they ended the war. SM (01:09:20): Do you feel it was when the people in middle America, Ohio, realized that their sons are coming home in caskets, they realize it's over? And while I cannot say it had a lot to do, the other two were white students killed on a college campus. PG (01:09:47): It is over because the kids are coming home in coffins or body bags or however they were coming home. And because there was very clearly no sign of progress, we went through a period between, I think the Tet Offensive, which militarily, a defeat for the other guys, the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese. Was a huge victory for them? A huge psychological victory. Huge. Had a devastating impact on the American national psyche and on the American war effort. In some months, or maybe a year later, maybe a year and a half, again I am rusty on the dates, we had My Lai. American troops massacre a village. You take those two and print those on the American public's psyche and you are in a... The old saying in politics is, when you have got a failing campaign, the dog food is purple and the dogs do not like it. And at that point I thought the dog food is purple and the dogs did not like it. SM (01:11:35): Charlie Company, they were 65 different young men who came home. PG (01:11:44): All of them did. We started with a roster of one company, which consisted of, I think it is somewhere around 160 soldiers. We found as many of them as we could. It was very difficult. Very, very difficult. We spent half a year just finding a workable, startup list of names, and with any contact information. Addresses, sometimes just a hometown. SM (01:12:17): Wow. PG (01:12:23): And they had fought in the (19)67, (19)68, (19)69 period, (19)68, (19)69 really, which was the period of America's maximum involvement. We had 560,000 troops there at the time. And we picked that particular company. We wanted a combat infantry company. I did not want any special, we wanted ordinary grunts. We did not want special forces. We did not want chopper pilots. We wanted just ordinary on the ground infantry grunts. We found our way to The Big Red One, has an alumni association. We have looked through their records, found one battle that sounded interesting to us. We wanted to get a collective account of one battle. We got a list of names of people who had served in that company, but with no contact information. The Army was only allowed to give us contact information for people who were still in the military, and I think only four of them were. So, we had to scratch and claw for half a year, as I say, and then another half year to do the, we had a team working on it, and to do the necessary interviewing. And for the magazine version we found 50 some, maybe 54, that included a couple or three who had been killed over there, and a couple who had died back home. And after we published the magazine version, we began to hear from other guys in the company and we checked them against our roster and they were legit. And so, for the book, I think we had 65 members, that is less than half the company. And one of the ironies was the battle that attracted us originally, none of them remembered. It was not that it was not that significant, but they told us about another battle that was significant, to the extent that any of those battle were significant. I mean, we were fighting over patches of real estate that nobody wanted. We would hold them for a few days and then leave. SM (01:15:47): And even Caputo, I interviewed him and he said, you read the Rumor of War, and even in (19)65 he started asking questions, what are we doing here? Because they are taking a hill. Then they have to go back and they would not lose as many people, but they would lose one. And then he lost his life and we just gave the hill up again. I mean, it was starting in (19)65 with the attitude, but (19)67 to (19)71 was the heyday. PG (01:16:18): Was the heyday. SM (01:16:21): These young men, did most of them feel they were discriminated against when they came home in terms of- PG (01:16:26): A lot of them. SM (01:16:27): A lot of them. Was it because of that image of My Lai, that Vietnam veterans were all baby killers? That kind of an attitude? PG (01:16:37): And it was not just My Lai, it was an unintended consequence of the anti-war movement, which was throwing around terms like baby killers. (01:16:52): Several of them told us when they were being flown home on commercial jets under contract to the government, they would get to the airport, duck into the first men's room they saw and change into civilian clothes. They did not want to walk through the airport in military clothes. SM (01:17:24): Is it true that at least some of them had a hard time getting a job, but also that some of your military organizations like Veterans of Foreign Wars did not even welcome them? In the beginning. PG (01:17:41): In the beginning, and I think that is one of the reasons for the formation of the Vietnam Veterans of America, or whatever the group is called, their own thing. I think the traditional, the VFW and the American Legion, caught onto and began welcoming them. But I think if you're a young guy and you have got people my age sitting with their caps on, that is not an environment that is going to make you feel real good. SM (01:18:34): I can remember affirmative action included Vietnam veterans at that time. Because I worked at Ohio University and they put Vietnam veterans in with African-Americans and Latinos. And because there was a feeling that they were certainly being discriminated against too. And of course, when the wall was built, everything changed. It went from being not popular to being popular to be a Vietnam vet. And everybody wanted to be one and people lied about being vets. And what's the thing that you learned the most about Vietnam from these 65 men. They were mostly probably middle or lower class in terms of economics. PG (01:19:19): I will tell you the main line would be working class. It was not everybody, but working class. For some of the Black guys it was a job opportunity where there were none. For some of the white guys, a lot of the white guys it was, well, I am waiting for my factory job, but I just got my draft notice. And ooh, that is what you do. (01:20:00): What I learned was that all the stereotypes of the Vietnam veterans were precisely that. They were stereotypes. They were empty stereotypes that what we found, 65 is a fairly good sample. It's not a statistic out of a commitment of a couple of million troops over the whole period of the war. And of all Vietnam era veterans it's not a very good sample. But I am a believer in journalism. And what we found was, what the stereotype was, was they come home, they're crazy, they shoot up their families, they drank too much. They do drugs. They cannot hold jobs. That was the stereotype. In some cases, that is what we found. In some cases, we found people who just resumed- SM (01:21:34): Life as normal. PG (01:21:35): Life as normal. We found a tendency among them not to want to talk about the war experience, even to their own families. A lot of them had wives. Did not talk to their wives about the war experience. One of our guys was interviewing a vet down in Texas at the vet's home. And they sat and talked just as we were sitting and talking. And my guy looked up and saw 90 percent hidden behind the door frame, the veteran's wife. And she had been eavesdropping. And when he left she said, he has never told me any of those things. I think that is been true in past wars as well, that it was very hard for veterans to talk to anyone except people who had shared the experience. But what we were astonished by was the degree to which they... We were the big-time national press and suddenly we were asking them. And we had a feeling that a lot of them, a lot of them, maybe a majority, were just waiting for someone to ask them. Not family, they did not want to talk to the wife or the kids or their parents, but they wanted the country to notice them, I think. SM (01:23:48): That is why the words, welcome home, is such an important. If you see a Vietnam veteran, I always say welcome home. Because even though it's been 35 years or whatever, that means something to him. PG (01:24:00): I agree. SM (01:24:09): You're a journalist and your career as a journalist is amazing in its own right. You talk a lot about Malcolm and African Americans and the civil rights experience and how important it was for the other movements as a model for the movements that followed in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. We talked a little bit about the Vietnam veterans here. But I would like to talk a little bit about journalism and about newspapers and about magazines during that timeframe. Question I asked Richard Reeves, who I interviewed yesterday, we were about three hours on the phone, was the fact is between 1946, which is the time that rumors were born, and 2010, when was journalism at its finest and when was it at its worst? And I preface this by saying that two things. Number one, during the Vietnam War, even though it was a terrible war, it seemed like journalism was unbelievable because of the fact that journalists had total access to the war with Halberstam, Sheehan, Peter Arnette, Malcolm Brown, the names go on and on. Television, the reporters, they had access. The access that you did not see in other wars. And then of course you had the Pentagon Papers, which was very important. And the whole issue of Watergate and the coverage and then the whole situation with Woodward and Bernstein, investigative journalism to me, just as a person who's not a journalist, this seemed like a heyday. But I do not know when you look at journalism in the 1946 after the war to John Kennedy, was that a good period? Was it a good period from (19)60 to (19)70? When were the best periods during this timeframe? PG (01:26:15): Well, I always thought I walked into national journalism at the almost perfect moment. I started at Newsweek in (19)62, national affairs writer. They discovered that I was interested in civil rights. Civil rights was a burgeoning story. I had been there two months when they sent me to Ole Miss to cover and get shot at. SM (01:27:00): Wow. PG (01:27:05): And the civil rights movement was a monumental story for years. The Vietnam War and the anti-war movement was a monumental story for years. The other movements we have discussed, and Watergate, which became also my beat. I was not working as an investigative reporter. We did not really have a serious investigative capability and it certainly was not me. I am not good at sleuthing. But I wrote something like 35 cover stories on Watergate. SM (01:28:04): Wow. PG (01:28:08): And so that period in my life, from (19)62 to (19)74, that was the flowering of American journalism. Certainly, it was at Newsweek. It was when Newsweek engaged with those issues in a way that news magazines traditionally had never engaged with issues. We were doing journalism on Gaje, essentially on civil rights. The war, Watergate. Since I was working out in the provinces in the latter (19)50s, but I think beginning with probably the Montgomery bus boycott, well, probably beginning with Brown versus Board and the Montgomery bus boycott, we saw a flowering of journalism. I think journalism responded to those stories very, very well. So, it was not like the day I started at Newsweek was when the golden era of journalism. A lot of things were at play there. We had an editor at Newsweek who wanted to engage with those stories. A man of serious conscience with a very clear sense of right and wrong. Was not a liberal. He was like an old-fashioned- SM (01:30:10): What was his name again? PG (01:30:12): Oz Elliott. Osborn Elliott. O-S-B-O-R-N. Elliott with a double L and double T. He was a man of breeding, high church, but a man. He reminded me of the old Progressive Movement in the early part of the 19th century that if the good people would get together, we could fix everything. And I think that was a core belief for him. And it was a motivating thing for our engagement with the political and moral questions of the day. But I think there were other editors around similarly disposed. I think the issues made journalism better. The money situation made journalism better. In those days you could afford to cover stories and cover them really all out. For a big story we used to say, we're going to scramble the jets on this one. And we would scramble the jets. I wrote the Jack Kennedy assassination story, and I think I had files from maybe 15 to 18 correspondents. Similarly, with Nixon's resignation. And when you have money to throw at a story, you can really cover the socks off it. That does not much exist in the industry anymore. Everybody is shrinking. SM (01:32:32): And also, I will say this, people read. Magazines and papers. Because on my college campus, New York Times. Everybody was reading the paper. So, you knew that when you were writing a piece people were, and even the Binghamton Press, when I was at Binghamton, they were reading. And I remember Joseph Craft, you started to get his name. He wrote a lot of good articles and boy, I learned a lot from him. He was a good writer. PG (01:33:03): He was. Smart guy. SM (01:33:07): What are your thoughts on Daniel Ellsberg, The New York Times was involved in that. PG (01:33:11): And the Washington Post. SM (01:33:11): Right. PG (01:33:15): The Times, first. SM (01:33:19): There is a feeling today in journalism that... Here we go. Is this going? Yes. Very good. The audio. The computer will check it just to be on the safe place. I was just mentioning about the journalists, Woodward and Bernstein, and certainly Daniel Ellsberg. Your thoughts. Was he right in doing what he did? PG (01:33:43): I think so. SM (01:33:46): And then the relation. I did not know Neil Sheehan was somewhat linked to this. Because I am reading a book now by Harrison Salisbury where he talks about The New York Times and how he had approached The Times and so forth through that link. So, I am learning that as well. There is a movie out now. Any thoughts on Daniel Ellsberg? Because the Pentagon Papers were like... PG (01:34:09): It is not a story I covered, so I have no close information about it. I just was glad they did it. I think it was an act of great courage and it was a contributing factor to the end of the war, to the sense that this war never made any sense and we're losing it. So, I think my tendency is to honor him, but again, I was not closely involved in the Pentagon Papers. SM (01:35:12): The gentleman I mentioned who I interviewed a couple of weeks back, mentioned he thought you were a god because of what you did at Newsweek regarding gay and lesbian writers. And I am doing an interview with him about his book, 1968, and we're talking about Harvey Milk, and we're talking about a lot of the issues. Because I have interviewed a lot of gay and lesbian Americans for this book project. So, they are going to be well covered. But, obviously that was a very courageous stand to take. Could you explain now a little bit about, obviously it's very important to people who are gay and lesbian, but how important. SM (01:36:03): It is very important to people who are gay and lesbian, but how important, maybe the criticism you even had for doing it that the courage it took. PG (01:36:09): No. I felt it took zero courage. I think part of the gestalt, which Oz Elliot's reign lasted through the (19)60s, but the gestalt continued for a long while after that, and we were a magazine with conscience. I think one of our sins was that we did not notice that while we were writing, well, while we were taking sides essentially, in print with the Civil Rights Movement, with the Anti-War Movement, to a degree with the counterculture, which I was a little less happy with, we were working with a caste system, a gender caste system. The model for Newsweek was Time Magazine. Time was, I think, again, my dates are rusty, but it was seven or eight years older than Newsweek. Some of our senior leaders have, including Oz Elliot, came from Time. That caste system had been created a time where researchers actually were required to wear white gloves and they were really a serving class. The men were the writers and editors and the women were researchers, fact Checkers, clippers. Newsweek imitated many, many things about Time when Newsweek was born in (19)33, a date that is familiar to me because I wrote the 50th Anniversary Edition. I turned 50 about the same time as Newsweek did. The original model was Time and we did things the Times way and that endured. The Newsweek I walked into in (19)62 still had this caste system. The women were essentially an underclass and we were blind to it, all of us. In 1970, the women, all of whom had been schooled and they were children of the (19)60s, they were Boomer young women. They filed an equal opportunity complaint, hired a lawyer, Eleanor Holmes Norton. Now, a sort of member of Congress and essentially sued Newsweek. The reaction was interesting because Newsweek was not angry. It was sort of public humiliation because it obviously made all the papers and everything, but the management response was not angry. I think the management response was chagrin. How could we have been blind to this situation? It did not work wonders overnight, but one of their demands was that, "Since they have been kept in this box for so long, they wanted a course in Newsweek writing and reporting. They wanted classes." They asked for me and one other guy to teach those classes. I taught three, eight-week semesters. And a few of them actually turned out to be very good Newsweek journalists or got enough confidence in themselves to work outside the nest, for other magazines or freelancing and stuff. That was our big blind spot. I think gays and lesbians were not. Charlie may think I played some important role. I never thought of it. SM (01:42:29): He is very gifted in terms of his ability to write and his ability to think and to be very critical where criticism is due. So, he is not going to give a whole lot of praise, but he praised you. PG (01:42:44): Well, we are friends and have been for a long time. I honestly think he gives me too much credit. There was nothing brave about it. SM (01:42:57): Would you say that here we are again, Boomer Generation, we have been talking today a lot about African Americans, Boomers, and certainly women taken as a role modeling here. Can you also say that even what was happening at Newsweek or even Time, may have been happening at other newspapers and magazines around the country, that newspapers grew up due to these pressures of the Boomers, when in all these different movements? PG (01:43:36): I have only circumstantial evidence, but I think the circumstantial evidence is pretty good that they did. You began to see women with serious roles. My wife was an extremely gifted journalist, extremely gifted journalist. She worked for the New York Post when it was a good newspaper. It is very hard for someone seeing it now in the Murdoch Era to believe that. Back in its day, back in the (19)50s, (19)60s, even into the (19)70s, it was, in the (19)50s and (19)60s, if you were talking about what are the best written papers in America, the conversation would not have included the New York Times, would not have included the Washington Post, would not have included the LA Times, would not have included the St. Louis Post Dispatch, would not have included the Chicago Tribune. The conversation would have included the New York Herald Tribune and the New York Post. They had extremely gifted writing staffs. And one day, my wife Helen got a call. Helen Dudar, D-U-D-A-R, D as in- SM (01:45:18): It is in the book. PG (01:45:19): Yeah. SM (01:45:19): You had devoted, I think, one of your books to her. I think it was Malcolm. PG (01:45:26): Yeah. I also, when she was terminally ill, I compiled and self-published an anthology of her work. Did I just lose my train of thought? SM (01:45:49): Talking about newspapers and the New York Tribune and that. PG (01:45:53): The Herald Tribune and The Post, yeah. The editor of The Times called her one day, when she was still working at The Post, and he said, "I do not suppose we could tempt you into writing for our society page?" I will not quote her exact language because it would be like... But the short version was, "No." SM (01:46:41): It is really amazing. I worked at a medical school, I will not mention it, in Philadelphia for four years, the manager of activities, they did not have any women in medical school, and the first one started in 1965. Now they make up over half of the medical school. I am shocked. I heard about these stories in law school. I have heard all these. Now, there were obviously exceptions. Obviously, Phyllis Schlafly may have been an exception because she was a lawyer and she went through that timeframe. PG (01:47:16): There are always exceptions. But I think now the majority of students in all med schools are now women. When my wife was in the hospital with what turned out to be the terminal breast cancer- SM (01:47:43): That is what my mom had. PG (01:47:44): Yeah, it is pretty common. It is very sad, but common. We dealt a lot with the young woman resident who was running the service where my wife was hospitalized, and I liked her a lot. She was very straightforward. She leveled with me. There was no feel-good stuff, but there was sympathy without sugarcoating, which was very important to me. I told her, "How great it was, I was seeing more and more through my wife's illness, I was seeing more and more women in the profession on their way up." And she said, "Yeah, but it is still very tough in the prestige professions." Surgery, not so much, very tough for women to crack that. That is a fraternity. It's not universally, but it's pretty much a boy’s club. And I said, "Well, what about pediatrics? Everybody loves pediatricians." She said, "Yeah, we can, but it is not a prestige." SM (01:49:24): Everything is evolving and hopefully it continues to evolve. PG (01:49:29): I think that is an evolutionary stage, [inaudible]. SM (01:49:33): Two of the questions I have asked every single person somewhat, is we have gone into just unique things that you have been involved in, is the issue of healing and the issue of trust. I have been prefacing the question on healing based on a group of students that I took to see Senator Edmond Musky in the middle (19)90s. We had a program where we took students to meet the leaders, small numbers of students. He had just gotten out of the hospital and Gaylord Nelson helped me to organize this. So, students, we put the questions together, and one of the questions they came up with is... They had seen all the divisions in 1968 and assassinations and the convention. And the question is, "Whether the Boomer Generation is going to go to their graves with lack of healing within their psyche?" And the reference was also made that it was a common knowledge that the Civil War generation went to their graves without healing. And you can see it at the Gettysburg Battlefield right now. I go five times a year over there to try to get a feel of war and everything. And the question was this, "Due to the tremendous divisions between those who supported the war, those who were against the war, those who supported the troops, those who were against the troops, those who between black and white, between male and female, between gay and straight, between, and then of course, they had threw in the burnings of the cities throughout the (19)60s, and the tremendous divisions, is that generation that experienced it when they were young, going to go to their graves with really very sad feelings of not healing, whether that is the activists who participated or the people who experienced these things? Do we have an issue with healing as Boomers age and pass?" PG (01:51:47): I think the important question is the generations that follow, will the Boomer experience affect future generations in a positive way? I think there is some fragmentary evidence that, that is happening. The Boomers... I am 77, I feel as if my life is defined. I have done some good stuff. I have done some not so good stuff. Healing is not an issue with me. I cannot read the minds of Boomers. I guess that some of them will be sad or disappointed that they did not change America. The problem with the revolutions is you never get to the Emerald City because it does not exist. I hope they go to their graves in some degree of peace about their lives and times. My guess is they are far enough past it now that they have got their old war stories, but at peace. The Boomers I know I do not think are particularly broody about it. But I just do not know. To me, again, the real question is did the Boomer Generation advance the ball politically and socially? Are we a better society or are we more just society? To me, I know that Tea Partiers say, "That a just society is a Communist slogan." But to me, it is not. To me it is a [inaudible] principal [inaudible]. I think if they even incrementally advanced the ball toward a just society or what became called the Beloved Committee, they have a right to go to their graves feeling okay about it themselves. But I do not know, I do not think it is an answerable question. SM (01:55:00): The wall has done a tremendous part in healing a lot of the Vietnam veterans and their families. Although, I have gone to the memorial every year on Memorial Day and Veterans Day since 1994, after I had met Lewis Puller who wrote Fortunate Son. There's still a lot of healing amongst the Vietnam veterans coming together in brotherhood is very important to them. PG (01:55:26): I still know some of them from Charlie Company. I am still in touch with very few of them. And that book is what, was published in the early (19)80s, so it is- SM (01:55:40): To Heal a Nation, by Jan Scruggs. PG (01:55:43): No, my book was, I think, published in 1980. SM (01:55:48): (19)85, I think, was not it? PG (01:55:50): No, it was not that. SM (01:55:51): Well, I got the date here. PG (01:55:54): It does not matter, but it is 25 or 30 years later, and I am still in touch with a few of the guys. SM (01:56:05): Scruggs wrote his book because he felt it was not only to heal of vets, but to heal a nation, that is why he wrote the book. The question I have asked myself at times and others, is whether it has healed the nation, whether the wall has done some part in healing the nation? But most importantly, as people have said, "Please define this question in a more clear way. It's really what you're saying, Steve, is Vietnam veterans and those who opposed the war, the anti-war people, and can they ever come together and hug and be friends and be accepted at the wall?" Whereas Bill Clinton, when he came there, some people were yelling at him, "As a coward," and everything. And certainly, people like McNamara and Jane Fonda and those types, there would be a war if they were ever there. PG (01:56:59): I tend to doubt that, that is going to happen, the hugs between the Jane Fonda's and the veterans who knew people on that wall, that ain't going to happen. Again, among other things, there remains a class difference between the anti-war people and the people who actually fought the war. It was interesting when I wrote Charlie Company, the wall was still just a plan, it was an architect's drawing. The veterans we interviewed, almost to a man, hated it, hated it, hated the design. When it happened, they fell in love with it. One guy I am in touch with in Oregon helped bring up a scaled down model of it, a traveling affordable model of it that he's been up and down the West Coast with. SM (01:58:27): We brought it to our campus. We had over 5, 500 people that came. I would say, maybe only about one third were students. I mean, it is just like they came out of the woodwork and they came at night. But no one was around. I stayed there for four days. I had three hours of sleep, I think, in those four days. Veterans had come in after midnight when no one was around. I was amazed. Musky responded by saying... He did not talk anything about (19)68 when we asked him the question. He said, "We have not healed since the Civil War," talking about race. That is what [inaudible]. The other one is, and again, as a political science major and history major, dissent and protest is very important. So not trusting your government is really we are taught that, that is good for a democracy. But the question is, was the Boomer Generation more than any other generation that just did not trust because their leaders had lied to them, whether it be the Gulf of Tonkin with President Johnson, whether it be Watergate with Richard Nixon, McNamara's lies about the numbers and the bodies? You can even go back to Eisenhower, and he lied on national television about the U2 incident with Gary Powers, he lied. PG (01:59:51): One of my quarrels with the Boomer Generation is that they did not do what needs to be done in a democratic order, which is get serious about creating an electoral movement. The marches and levitate the Pentagon and blowing each other up, that was all to me, theater. If you want to change the trustworthiness of people in government, you have got to organize in a very serious way, and it is hard work, and you have got to elect people you trust. You have got to find people you trust out of your own ranks. And you have got to organize, you have got to get people to the polls. You have got to do all the hard work. You have got to raise the money, so that you can call attention to your movement. In that sense, when I talk about mature politics, that to me is mature politics. I think the Tea Party Movement, which I earlier called the Last Movement, is not there yet. They love to complain. They love rallies. They love signs. But they're not a party. They're not a serious political organization. I am nowhere near on their side politically, but if they want to be taken seriously, I will tell what [inaudible] to be taken seriously. SM (02:02:15): One of the things I observed in the (19)60s and early (19)70s is that when there was a protest... And I only got a couple more minutes, then I am done. The protests were, you could see posters from just about all the groups. When Earth Day took place, Earth Day and when Gaylord Nelson met with the anti-war people to make sure he was not stepping on the anti-war people, so there was a working relationship between that group and the beginnings of Earth Day. Phyllis Schlafly said, "All the people that were involved in the Environmental Movement were all former commies." That was her perception. PG (02:02:53): That is her perception of everything that is left of Genghis Khan. SM (02:02:59): But it is interesting, you could see the posters, you could see the... Actually, all of the movements, the posters were there, probably at the moratorium in (19)69 and in Earth Day, the first one. But now, it does not seem to be that way. It seems that they have become separated again. They're into the Women's Movement is really into women's issues. The gay and lesbian organizations are into their issues. The Latinos, they are into their issues. And of course, the Anti-War Movement is all scattered all over the place. So, it seems like there's a separatism happening within the movements even. I might be wrong in this. PG (02:03:49): I think at least in the period we're talking about, I think that is always just... We were talking about the cleavage over the pressure on King, not to talk about Vietnam or the economy. What you described, the students who did not show up, the black students who stayed away from- SM (02:04:15): Kent State. PG (02:04:17): ... from the Kent State mobilization. I do not think that is new. And within those movements, there were many tendencies within the Civil Rights Movement, certainly. Even within the Anti-War Movement, you ran the range from the Fellowship of Reconciliation to the Weather Underground. I think that is inherent, that is inherent. And people with grievances are going to have a hierarchy of grievances. And the top at the of the hierarchy is the one that most affects me, my life, my friends, my circle, my peers. If I am a college kid and during the Vietnam War, all my friends are going to be agitated about the draft and the possibility of getting called up. SM (02:05:54): I am down to the last part, which is basically, you already spoke to this, some names, terms, people that were well-known during the period. They could be just quick responses. But my final question before that is, you had mentioned that you were there in Mississippi, James Meredith and you have obviously experienced so much, number one, were you at Malcolm's funeral? PG (02:06:21): No. SM (02:06:21): Okay. PG (02:06:22): No. I made a conscious decision to stay away. SM (02:06:33): Your meetings with him, they must be unbelievable memories, just interviewing him for a couple hours. What was it like to be in the same room with him? PG (02:06:53): What is your reaction seeing him on YouTube? It was very hard not to like him. I would love to be able to say, I got to be friends. I cannot say that because I cannot speak for him. The first couple of times I interviewed him, he was a prisoner of a theology that held that white people were devils, blue-eyed devils. But the first time I met him was in St. Louis. I had seen him during my fellowship year at Harvard. I had seen him speak at the Harvard Law School Forum. He happened to be there when I was in the middle of reading Sierra Lincoln's book called The Black Muslims in American. I was quite absorbed by it, so I thought I better go watch this guy. And I did and- PG (02:08:01): And when I got back to St. Louis, one of my first orders of business was to go to my city editor and say, "This is an important phenomenon in America, and let me go find out what they're doing here." They had mosques all over the country. And he said, " Okay." The St. Louis newspapers did not really cover the Black community in St. Louis very well. And so, I decided I was going to make that migration to start covering the Black community in St. Louis. And I started with a four-part series on the local mosque of the Nation of Islam. And a couple of months later, I got a call from Malcolm saying, "I am going to be in St. Louis to visit the local mosque. Would you like to meet with me?" And I said, "Yeah." Helen, my wife, was then freelancing, because we were looking for a year in St. Louis. And she was leading her not very successful freelance session. She said she wanted to see him. That conversation was, I think probably the best word I could find for it is civil. Was civil for the most part. But I thought it kind of got a little easier, a little more conversational, a little less interview-y. Went on for a couple hours and Malcolm was defending a theological position. But a lot of the reporters he was confronting those days were portraying him as a preacher of hate, dangerous dude. And we were not asking that kind of question. We were not coming on like district attorneys. We were just asking him civil questions about what's this all about? And by the end of it, the tone was pretty good. And as we were getting up to leave, my wife said one of the objectives of the Nation of Islam was to create a lot of small businesses, black owned businesses in the ghetto, was sort of the beginnings of building economic independence in their minds. And my wife said to Malcolm, "What if all those businesses succeed? And all the people running them got successful and they run off and joined the NAACP?" And at first, he did not understand she was kidding. And then there was a double take and then a wide smile. And I think that became a key to my subsequent interviews with him. And Helen interviewed him a couple of times there. She wrote about him separately in the New York Post. She wrote pieces about him. But I think in our subsequent interviews, they really were more like conversations. And I think I won his trust, but I also did not feel he was obliged to like me or embrace me as a friend. I did want his trust and I was happy when I felt that I won it. In fact, after the last piece I wrote about him, he had one of his staffers call me and say, "Minister Malcolm thought that piece was very fair." SM (02:13:10): So, you may have shown him that, because I was around students at Ohio State that really did not like white people, and if you show that you care about them, about what they are saying, we can never live in the skin of a black person. But if there is a sense that a person truly does care, and you may have been, he sense you cared about this. PG (02:13:41): I think I probably conveyed that. But I also think what was important to him was, he had two public persona when he was dealing with the White Press. One was playing the caricature Malcolm. People would say, "Are you teaching hate?" And he would do riffs like "by any means necessary", or if you ask them questions about the state of Black America and how his beliefs might help and responded with someone understanding. One of his, a line he used once when he was under a lot of pressure about his advocacy of Blacks owning guns for self-self-defense, he said, "I am the man you think you are." He said to a white reporter, "I am the man who you think you are." What he meant in the context of that conversation was, "If you hit me, I am going to hit you back." But I think he applied the same principle to just personal interaction. And if you respect him, he will respect you. And I think that worked between us. SM (02:15:26): That is very important because I think that TV segment on YouTube, if you have not seen it, maybe tonight or whatever, go on YouTube and check out the- PG (02:15:35): There is hundreds of them. SM (02:15:36): There is hundreds of them, but there is only a few that are in color. And it is actually one of the first ones. And it was a person challenging him about his name, and I did not think he was saying it in the right way. And I think he did not show any respect to Malcolm at that time. And you could sense it. Are there any other personal stories you would like to share about people you met during the (19)60s and the (19)70s, or (19)50s, (19)60s and (19)70s that would be little good anecdotes? Did you meet James Meredith? PG (02:16:13): I met him, but I had very little interaction with him. When I was down there, he was surrounded by US Marshals and Federalized National Guard troops. So, he was pretty insulated. I met him later on. I cannot remember the circumstance, but I never had a real conversation with him. SM (02:16:40): Specific instances, the ones that really stand out amongst the events that you covered? Obviously, you have mentioned, you wrote the article on the JFK assassination and you wrote about Malcolm and you covered James Meredith. Were there others that stand out? Watergate, but what other others that stand out? PG (02:17:06): Well, I think the whole Civil Rights movement, I was writing about that practically every week during the civil rights season, which tended to be spring, summer, fall. It tended to be a warm weather movement. The active street, the street movement. I remember scenes, but they do not particularly make great anecdotes. I covered George Wallace a couple of times, a couple of his campaigns. One when he was running his wife, maybe he couldn't succeed himself, so he ran his wife who had terminal cancer for governor in his place, and I just felt sorry for him. You asked earlier about, parenthetically, you mentioned Woodward Bernstein. We never got back to that. And you asked about- SM (02:18:28): Investigative journalism, which seemed to have brought in a whole new generation of writers that wanted to be like them. PG (02:18:42): And I think that was a very mixed blessing. I know them both well, I worked with them both. I excerpted their second book for Newsweek and I had to work with them for that. And I excerpted Bob's book on the Supreme Court. Got along well with both of them. I kind of got along better with Carl than with Bob. But Carl was more the writer. Bob's a very serious man. SM (02:19:24): He has been on TV. He was a commentator. PG (02:19:27): Yeah. Yeah. So, when we were working on the Final Days, which was their second book, I spent a lot more time with Carl than Bob, and also, we were friends with Carl's... One of his wives or Alfred. SM (02:19:52): Oh yeah. No, she was married to him. PG (02:19:56): Oh, yeah. SM (02:19:57): She's wrote a book out about something about Double Chins or- PG (02:20:02): I do not like my neck. SM (02:20:03): Yeah. PG (02:20:05): Well, she wrote a novel about him, and which became a movie about her marriage to Carl, which ended unhappily. Carl was a bit of a Tom Cat. I will look. I may have better inside information on the website. Just going back to that, I think that they were a mixed blessing in a number of ways. Obviously, what they did with Watergate was fantastic. That was a great, I think that was a great contribution. I think the subsequent book was, the Final Days was a great contribution too, as a first rough draft of history of the period. But as you said, I drew a lot of people into the business, and that is been a mixed blessing. I think it partly had to do with glory and money. Carl and Bob were played by Dustin Hoffman and Robert Redford in the movie. That is pretty glamorous. That makes sense. Carl looked pretty glamorous and they made a ton of money. And I think that was catnip for a lot of young journalists. And it changed. It was not their fault, but the character of investigative journalism began to change. When I was beginning my career, there was a kind of gentleman's agreement in the press, and it was all gentle. There was the kind of agreement that there were certain subjects you did not talk about, like people's sex lives, drinking habits, other vices. What the Watergate period led to was what came to be called character journalism. Look at Nixon. The guy was an epic neurotic, so much so that he was trying to tear up the Constitution. So, we have got to look closely at all these guys. Okay, that is good. That is a good outcome. But it's now what it became, which I think is connected with the glory and money piece of it. The definition of what is character has broadened and broadened and broadened. And now it is in the age of bedsheet journalism. And we look under bedsheets. SM (02:24:21): Edwards. PG (02:24:22): Yeah. And the National Enquirer got nominated for a Pulitzer for their expose of Edwards's a fair, which I think is a low moment. Now, do I find Edwards's behavior acceptable? No. The guy is what used to be called a cad. Clinton and Monica, or Clinton and Jennifer Flowers, I am not fond of that. My test is what matters to their conduct in public office, what matters to their capacity for leadership. John Kennedy was leading an extremely vivid sex life back in the (19)60s. Everybody in the business knew. Everybody in my business knew about it. It was just common gossip. And we knew a lot of detail. But the code was different then, and you did not write about those things. And the irony is that there were two of the women that we should have written about, probably. One was a woman named, who was, as it turned out, an East German- SM (02:26:04): Spy. PG (02:26:05): I do not know if she was really a spy, but she was connected with the East German Secret Service. And the other was Judith Campbell Wexner, who he was sharing with a mafia Don. And those would be legitimate subjects of journalistic investigation. I have said a moment ago that we knew his activities were common gossip, but we did not have those two names at the time. And I think if we had had those two names and their affiliations, we probably would not in that time, we probably would not have written about them. But it would have, there would have been conferences about them. SM (02:26:58): Even speculation about Marilyn Monroe. PG (02:27:00): Oh yeah. She is the most popular subject of the Kennedy stories. And I think it was real. SM (02:27:10): Peter Lawford was obviously a friend of hers. It is amazing, the story of Bobby Kennedy flying back to California, meeting with Peter going over to the house, and whether that is true or not. Then she died. Whether she would be on drugs or whether it was to shut her up. I mean, who knows. PG (02:27:33): I am a violent Eddie conspiratory theorist. SM (02:27:35): There are lot of books on Kennedy though, Kennedy and King on the conspiracy theories. The other question I have, and then you know what? You have been here a very long time and you do not have to respond to all these names, if that is okay. PG (02:27:52): No, go ahead. SM (02:27:55): But I want to ask you, Malcolm's death is very suspicious. And we had a speaker on our campus. PG (02:28:05): No, it is not. SM (02:28:07): Is there a link to Farrakhan and that fascination? PG (02:28:11): Farrakhan was involved, yeah. There are all kinds of CIA and FBI and New York Police Bureau of Special Services conspiracy theories. They are all junk. They all knew what was going on. We have bushels of tape recorded. The FBI, which was playing a really invasive role and to me, objectionable role in surveillance of Malcolm and Elijah Muhammad and the Nation of Islam turned out to be a boon to historians, because there are bushels of transcripts of phone calls in which we have Elijah Muhammad saying, among other things, "The brother's eyes need to be closed," which was a death warrant. The FBI and the NYPD were privy to everything that was being said in the Nation of Islam. They had both, they had room bugs and telephone taps at Elijah Muhammad's home in Chicago, Elijah Muhammad's second home in Phoenix, Malcolm X's home, Malcolm X's office. They knew everything. A senior official of the New York Bureau of Special Services and Investigation told me, "We knew what they were thinking." They did not have to lift a finger because they knew Malcolm was going to be dead. There were six attempts by the Nation of Islam before the one that succeeded. I have interviewed in prison. Three people were convicted. Two of them should not have been, although they have been involved in one of the earlier attempts. I interviewed all three of those guys in prison. The guy we know was guilty and who was caught at the scene essentially told me the whole story, named the names of the assassins, told me how the assassination was generated. Another one of the, I think wrongly, in fact, I know wrongly convicted men, told me about a meeting at the New York Mosque where the national leadership from Chicago was extremely angry that the New York Mosque had not been able to whack Malcolm. So, they sent in Elijah Muhammad's son, Elijah Muhammad the second, a very-very tough guy who was in charge of the Fruit of Islam, which was their paramilitary corps. They assembled enforcers from all over the country in the Harlem Mosque. And Elijah Jr., as he's also sometimes known, said Malcolm then was living in a house that had been bought for him by Elijah Muhammad in Queens. They were trying the Nation of Islam after Malcolm defected and was trying to get him back. Elijah Jr. said, "What you all need to do is go out to that house and clap on the walls until the walls come tumbling down. Then you want to go inside and cut the nigger's tongue out and I will put it in an envelope and I will send it to my father." I have zero question that the assassination was the work of the Nation of the Islam and that while the FBI and the New York police, not so much the New York police, because it became a New York because it happened here. But the FBI no doubt celebrated. I mean, Hoover was nuts and they no doubt celebrated the outcome, but they did not have to. They knew they did not have to do anything. They knew this was internal, and that sooner or later his former brothers would get him, and they did. SM (02:34:19): When you talk about Malcolm here, because I do not like conspiracy books either, because I am tired of them, and I know Groden wrote one on the Kennedy assassination. We had him on our campus, but after he wrote that book, everybody's been reading it. But do you believe that the John Kennedy assassination is, as they say, it was Oswald. That Bobby was Sirhan Sirhan alone, that there was not a second person with a gun, and the third is Martin Luther King was the guy at the- PG (02:34:52): King, I think there were... The best evidence on King, I think, is not that there was a government conspiracy, but that a couple of rich and slightly illuminated brothers in Missouri put a bounty on his head. And this is not original reporting with me. This is stuff I have read and it's the most persuasive stuff I have seen on King, on the King murder. That James Earl Ray heard about this when he was in prison for whatever he had been in prison for before the assassination. He escaped and lived on the lam for, I think, a couple of three years and found his way to these brothers, and they financed him. That is the most persuasive version, I would say. SM (02:36:06): It is amazing that the King family was starting to believe him. PG (02:36:11): Believe Ray? Yeah. SM (02:36:12): Yeah, yeah. PG (02:36:13): Well, Ray was a story about Raul and yeah. SM (02:36:20): When the best books are written about the Boomer generation, which includes, is all-inclusive, all ethnic groups, and we have not even talked about Cesar Chavez, who was a very important person to me in the Latino community. Bobby Kennedy, he's a major figure too. Better than- PG (02:36:36): I covered a little of Bobby's (19)68 campaign and I interviewed, I did, I think three cover zones. SM (02:36:43): Did you ever get to meet John Burns, the mayor of Binghamton, New York, who ran his presidential campaign in... I mean, senatorial campaign in New York? He was our mayor in Binghamton. He was my very first interview. He has passed away quite a few years back. But when the best books are written on the Boomer generation after the last Boomer has passed on, what do you think they will be saying about the generation and the period? PG (02:37:17): I hope they will be saying something complicated. A generation is a vast population cohort, and they do not define very easily. They do not profile very easily. I doubt that a majority of Boomers lived what we think of as Boomer lives. We think most people got up in the morning, went to work, got married, had kids, lived plain lives. I think the politically active Boomers, which we sometimes... Boomers sometimes become shorthand for... The term "Boomers" sometimes become shorthand for the politically active minority of Boomers. So, my guess is they will get mixed reviews. I would give, if I were writing the book, I would give them mixed reviews. SM (02:38:34): Certainly, the media plays a role here, because you talk about if indeed they are only talking about Woodstock, summer of love, some of the more eccentric activities, along with the more serious too. But the media has to play a role here, and how history and history formed. You said that you would be willing to do this, but there is a lot of names here, so yeah. You want to use the restroom or? PG (02:39:11): Yeah. SM (02:39:11): But that is actually one of the questions I did not ask that is in here, and the books that influenced you in your life, but particularly some of the books that may have been written in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s, that really said a lot. Whether you read that for King's Books or Strike Toward Freedom, what are the most important books that influenced you in your life? PG (02:39:35): In my life, All the King's Man, The Plague. There is what nobody's ever heard of, by a rudder called Bernard Wolfe, called The Late Risers. PG (02:40:02): Writer called Bernard Wolfe called The Late Risers, which is Book of the 50s. The non-fiction works of James Baldwin. The Autobiography of Malcolm X, although it's a quite flawed piece of work. King's writings, although if I had to pick out a single document, would be the Letter from Birmingham Jail. The speeches of Malcolm X, of which there are several collections. A lot of political books and a lot of old books I am currently reading. I am reading up on the Gilded Age because I am finding so many parallels to our own time. SM (02:41:30): Did you ever read The Greening of America by Charles Reich? PG (02:41:32): [inaudible]. SM (02:41:33): And then The Making of a Counter Culture by Theodore Roszak? PG (02:41:36): I have not read that. SM (02:41:37): Those are major ones from that [inaudible 02:41:41] period and anything that Eric Erikson wrote and Kenneth Keniston, they were great writers of the movements that was happening on college campuses in that period. All right. Here we go. PG (02:41:58): Hofstadter. Richard Hofstadter. SM (02:42:00): Oh, yes. PG (02:42:01): Major influence on my political maturation, such as it is. SM (02:42:09): Did you read The Making of a Quagmire by Halberstam? PG (02:42:13): Yeah. SM (02:42:13): I thought that is a classic book too. A Rumor of War by Phil Caputo. What a great book. PG (02:42:20): I read a syllabus of war books during the run up to Charlie Company. Michael Herr... SM (02:42:32): Dispatches. PG (02:42:32): Yeah. But I also read some war novels from past wars when I was doing that. SM (02:42:43): I want to recommend a book for you to read if you have not read it. And that is Fortunate Son, not the book on George Bush. It's the book that was written by Louis Puller that won the Pulitzer Prize back in (19)92. And he killed himself in the spring of (19)94. And I am very pleased that Toddy Puller, his wife agreed- PG (02:43:08): Yeah. Is this Chesty Puller's son? SM (02:43:09): Yes, it is a great book. It is a sad story. The book is a really good story, but it is a sad story about how he ended his life. And Toddy Puller has agreed to be interviewed. She is a state representative in Virginia. PG (02:43:25): I met her once there just briefly on a political campaign. SM (02:43:31): I thought she would never say yes because there was friction at the end when he killed [inaudible] they were heading for a divorce. But the story is... I will mention that too. These are just to respond to some names and not in any length. The first one is Tom Hayden. Just quick thoughts, responses to these people, whether you like them, dislike them, thought they were important, not important. PG (02:43:58): I thought among that whole Students for a Democratic Society orbit, I thought he was the smartest. SM (02:44:10): Jane Fonda. PG (02:44:13): I do not think much about her. I do not really have a good answer for that or even an answer for it. SM (02:44:28): How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin? The two hippies. PG (02:44:34): Hoffman, I thought once, this is off the record, I once smoked dope with him. SM (02:44:39): Okay. That will not be in the transcript. PG (02:44:43): Okay. He was fun to be around, but I thought he was mostly show business. I thought of him as a standup comic with political content. And he's not one my heroes. SM (02:45:04): What about Rubin? PG (02:45:08): Rubin was a standup comic without the comic sense and the revolutionary who winds up on Wall Street. It's not what revolutionaries... SM (02:45:27): Timothy Leary. PG (02:45:30): Leary... The whole drug piece of boomerism never appealed to me. I thought all that stuff was... Even though I smoked dope with them. I thought all that stuff was self-indulgent and I have no fondness for Leary or his works. SM (02:46:18): How about Daniel and Philip Berrigan? PG (02:46:23): I honor them. I think they were true Christians. And there were a lot of people who call themselves true Christians. They do not know a lot. I honor their memory. SM (02:46:43): I think you have already mentioned this, but the Black Panthers. I mentioned the seven names. PG (02:46:49): I thought the Panthers were interesting and attractive. But I have low respect for them in the struggle. I think Huey Newton, one of his classic documents was called Revolutionary Suicide. I am not a believer in revolutionary suicide. I once wrote a cover on the Black Panthers and it gave them mixed reviews and got involved in the picture picking. And the pictures were spread over... Some stories you wrote, there might be six pictures. We had a conference table covered with pictures. They were beautiful images. And the then editor of Newsweek looked at that tabletop and said there were too many pictures of these guys. They're not serious. And I went out there, I interviewed Bobby Seale in jail, interviewed him a couple of times since Huey was in prison and not accessible. I interviewed Donald Cox, David- SM (02:48:27): Hilliard. PG (02:48:28): ...David Hilliard, a couple of others. I think it was an exercise in futility. I am not pro futility. SM (02:48:44): A lot of people that I have talked to said that Fred Hampton was probably the most dynamic of all of them. He was the one that was murdered in Chicago. Yeah, the FBI wanted him outed. The National Organization for Women, and I put in here Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinam, and Bella Abzug. The Women's... There are others but... PG (02:49:07): Yeah, I am pro feminist I think those people you have named were major contributors. Steinem, who could have lived a very soft life as a glamor girl. SM (02:49:36): She was a Playboy bunny. PG (02:49:37): Yeah. Instead gave her life to that. Gave her working life to that movement or commitment to that movement. I honor her particularly. But [inaudible] Friedan, Abzug, they're parts of what when America and Newsweek finally woke up to the woman question, they were very important. SM (02:50:11): The Feminist Mystique, Mr. Kaiser, mentioned to me, or Charles, that she's not very well liked, Betty Friedan, in the gay and lesbian movement because she was homophobic. And so that is an issue there. Vietnam Veterans Against the War. PG (02:50:37): I was for them. I do think the vets needed something [inaudible]. SM (02:50:45): That was Bobby Muller and Ron Kovic and all that. PG (02:50:49): Yeah-yeah, yeah. SM (02:50:50): How about Mark Rudd and Rennie Davis? These are two other big names from that period. PG (02:50:58): No, I just do not think much of them. I do not mean that negatively. I just do not... They do not populate my interior landscape. I do not really have anything interesting to say about them. SM (02:51:14): How about SDS before The Weatherman or then The Weatherman themselves? PG (02:51:21): The Weatherman, I think, were practicing, essentially... I was about to say "juvenile," I will be a little kinder and say immature politics. SDS, I think was an attempt at being a white [inaudible]. And I think a lot of the women in SDS were not very happy with their roles as women in SDS. SM (02:52:03): How about Dennis Banks and the American Indian Movement? Do not forget the American Indian movement took over Alcatraz in (19)69 and the American Indian movement itself, we're not talking about the... I have learned this, that Native American movement was pretty strong even before AIM. But AIM looked at some of the more revolutionary tactics so that what happened at Alcatraz in (19)69 and what happened at Wounded Knee in (19)73 where there was violence. Because the FBI was all over this group. PG (02:52:36): Again, they are not part of my psychic population. SM (02:52:41): How about Stonewall and Harvey Milk? PG (02:52:47): Well, Milk obviously is a martyr, and Stonewall was a great liberating moment. But Stonewall was an amazing turnaround. And the Blacks went through the whole, "We're human too." And I think gays had to have similar moments. And I thought that was a major, major moment. Yeah. SM (02:53:32): How about the Free Speech Movement, when you think about that, what happened at Berkeley in (19)64, (19)65, Mario Savio, [inaudible]? PG (02:53:37): [inaudible]. SM (02:53:41): Yeah, that particular group. Just your response on that movement. PG (02:53:46): I was not there. I did not write about it. So again, I do not really have... SM (02:53:55): Okay. Just the term "counterculture." Your thoughts on the counterculture, the hippies and yippies. I think you have already mentioned them, but I just... PG (02:54:03): Yeah, politically, I thought they were immature. I thought they had a high show biz quotient. In terms of political gain, I do not think they achieved actually anything much. SM (02:54:26): How about the conservative group, Young Americans for Freedom, which has often been forgotten? They were very strong in the anti-war movement, and they were conservative, Young Americans for Freedom. Of course, I think Bill Buckley was involved in that. So, I have down here Young Americans for Freedom and William Buckley. PG (02:54:45): Well, Buckley's obviously a seminal figure in the development of what we now think of as movement conservatism. I disagreed with a lot of what he said, but I have a soft spot for him in my heart because he essentially subsidized an anthology of the columns of Murray Kempton, who is one of my heroes. SM (02:55:27): God and Man at Yale. I do not know if you had that book. PG (02:55:30): I had it a long time ago. SM (02:55:32): I read it and I thought he was kind of a radical, conservatively. He handles the system at Yale. So, Barry Goldwater, and- PG (02:55:42): He was also an apologist for Joe McCarthy and- SM (02:55:48): He wrote a book on that. PG (02:55:52): And then one of the things that politicized me as a very young man was McCarthy. McCarthy and McCarthyism. SM (02:56:06): Barry Goldwater and Dr. Benjamin Spock. What a combination. PG (02:56:12): What a combination. Goldwater is... I think my first political cover was on the Goldwater campaign in (19)64. Another seminal figure. And really, I was happy he was not elected, but was nowhere near the monster that he was made out to be. He was really a classic libertarian, a western libertarian and a likable guy. Dr. Spock, Dr. Spock, I do not think much about. It's another one. SM (02:57:15): I found it interesting too that the irony, and there's a lot of irony in the (19)60s, in the (19)70s. The irony is that Barry Goldwater, who was really defeated by Lyndon Johnson. And then Nixon becomes president in (19)68, beating Humphrey. And then it was Barry Goldwater and Hugh Scott that walked into the White House and told him that he needs to resign. PG (02:57:40): That is right. SM (02:57:43): McCarthy, Eugene McCarthy and Bobby Kennedy. PG (02:57:47): Bobby Kennedy is a major figure for me. Major positive figure for me. As I mentioned, I covered a couple of states in his primary campaign for President. I did an early Bobby cover when he was Attorney General. I did a cover on him when he was US Senator, thinking about running for President. I thought he was one of the most powerful political figures I have ever seen. And it was in an anti-matter way. Bobby wore tragedy on his sleeve. I think he never recovered from Jack's death ever. I think part of what success he had... I do not think he would have won the presidency. I think it was fairly well wired. You could still wire elections and in those days. We did not have primaries or caucuses in all 50 states. I think it was pretty much wired for Hubert. And I am not an anti Hubert. I think he got bashed around more than he deserved. SM (02:59:34): [inaudible]. PG (02:59:42): But Bobby looked like a man in pain practically all the time. His hands shook when he would make speeches. I saw his... He did a famous speech to the University of Nebraska Medical School students in Lincoln. They had a podium, a carved wood replica of a sawed in half Greek column with fluted... And all through the speech, it was sort of sad and harrowing to watch. His fingers were working into the flutes, the fluting on the column, up and down, up and down. It was just a nervous tick. He was very uncomfortable in his skin. The only time I saw him relaxed and peaceful was in Indianapolis. He had gone to a stop on his schedule and he cut the stop short. Because he had, on the way there, he had passed a schoolyard for a... Must have been a preschool. The children were very small. And he led his staff and the not very large press corps into that schoolyard and just started connecting with the kids. And one little black kid, maybe four... He radiated something to children. He was extremely good with children. And children saw it immediately. And this little boy came up to him and Kennedy was squatting like this, and the kid just sat on his knee. Kennedy did not put him there or beckon him there. He just sat on his knee. And Bobby asked him, "What's your name?" And he said, "Eldridge," which I thought was interesting, it was pre-Cleavers. SM (03:02:44): Oh my God. PG (03:02:48): So, he was not named for Cleaver. And he said to Kennedy, "How did you get out the television?" He thought Kennedy lived inside- SM (03:03:01): Oh my gosh. Wow. PG (03:03:07): ...the television. SM (03:03:07): Well, that is the one heck of a story. PG (03:03:09): Yeah. And it was so sweet. And he was so at peace. And it was the only time... SM (03:03:19): That is when he gave his speech too. He was in Indianapolis [inaudible], the impromptu speech- PG (03:03:23): I was not there for that one. [inaudible]. SM (03:03:28): He did not like McCarthy. PG (03:03:30): No. SM (03:03:31): [inaudible] Eugene was [inaudible]. PG (03:03:32): They hated each other. Eugene used to brag that... Well, he was furious at Bobby for getting into the race after he, McCarthy, had opened the door a crack. And he would say, "Well, I got the A students." SM (03:03:53): Wow. So how about Robert McNamara and John Kennedy? Just a couple comments on them. PG (03:04:13): John Kennedy, I think did a lot of good. And I am not one of his worshipers, but as an inspirational leader, I think that may have been his most important single contribution. The creation of the Peace Corps, which was actually Hubert Humphrey's idea. But it happened on Jack's watch. A lot of boomers did the Peace Corps experience. And I think it was a great happening for them and it led a lot of people, a lot, to public service. I think for the better. And Jack Kennedy was the first to say something that Eisenhower had refused to say that race was a moral issue in America. It was very important. To this day, you visit homes in a black neighborhood and the pictures you will see on the wall are Jesus, Jack Kennedy and Martin Luther King. McNamara, I really was not covering the policy under the war, so my feelings about him are really third hand from stuff I have read. Those guys all got themselves trapped into this notion that this was something doable, that this was something winnable. And by the time he... I give him credit for realizing late, way too late, but the fact that he realized it at all, that it was a losing proposition, that it essentially had been a mistake. I think [inaudible] he had a learning curve. SM (03:07:08): What about Nixon and Spiro Agnew? PG (03:07:16): Nixon, I think is one of the most wonderfully... From a writer's point of view, I think is one of the most- (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Peter Goldman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Goldman, Peter ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Journalists; Goldman, Peter--Interviews Description An account of the resource Peter Goldman is an author and journalist. He was the national-affairs writer, senior editor, and team leader of a special-projects unit for <em>Newsweek</em> magazine. Goldman wrote over 120 cover stories on race, politics, Watergate, criminal justice and other aspects of American life. Goldman additionally wrote several books on Malcolm X. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-04-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.56a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.56b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 187:25 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/71ae87a5cd1744c9575d68e564205975.jpeg 23b9b3b0526d5eca637485b644c9ecd3 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2f7dec43aa1994e5a82686ebddf39b68.mp3 a5b219f8ae3e8b0f1e3c31a9714833bb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span> Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Heather DeHaan and Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Peter Hatala Biographical Text Dr. Peter Hatala was born in Johnson City, NY and he is a first-generation Ukrainian American. His father was an immigrant from Ulychne, Ukraine. Dr. Hatala is a retired orthodontist. He is married and resides in Vestal. He has six children and two grandchildren. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 81:41 minutes Date of Interview 2016-06-23 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp3 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Hatala, Peter. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Church; Ukrainian folk dancing; Broome County (N.Y.) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Dr. Peter Hatala Interviewed by: Heather DeHaan and Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 23 June 2016 Interview Setting: St. John’s Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Heather DeHaan: So, first I want to thank you Dr. Hatala for agreeing to be interviewed. We are on Thursday of the 23rd of June 2016, and we are in the basement of St. John’s Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Johnson City– Peter Hatala: In the boardroom– HD: In the boardroom. PH: Right. HD: In the boardroom where we also have at our disposal a number of collections of family histories for members of the congregation um that were gathered at the initiative of doctor Hatala. So, could you begin by giving us your full name? PH: Uh, my name is Dr. Peter Hatala. I was uh born in Johnson City in New York on the North side, August 16th 1932, and uh I am a uh Johnson City Graduate, but uh before that um of course my roots have been my father Nicolas Hatala was from Ulychne in Austria-Hungary and uh he was born in 1882 and passed away I think in (19)73. HD: So, 1882 to 1973. PH: Right. HD: Okay, so um, first of all when did your father come to North America? PH: He came in uh 1910. I have his Ellis Island uh certificate, I do not have it with me, and my mother, I do not know when she came in, I was thinking around 1912 with her uncle or with her brother actually. There is only three in the family. So, she came with one of the brothers and actually here is the family trees signed by … that on the website and of my mother, right there. HD: Ok, so your mother was her name– PH: Kankavich? HD: So, we have it, Maria. PH: Yes. HD: Okay. So, Maria came with her older brother, her younger brother and a parent? PH: Josephine, yeah, her mother was Josephine. HD: Okay. PH: Came with an older brother and, they came through Ellis Island also but I could not get her Ellis Island certificate and a lot of it was the wording of the name or how it was spelled. I had a hard time getting my dad’s until I saw his name spelled in Polish with a J on the end, and his name was Nicolas. So, I never put a J on the end. But it was that is how I got his. So, I am going to try to get my mum’s too. I belonged to Ellis Island before, long time back and I am going to join again because I want to go there. My daughter lives in Long Island. And uh so I can hope over to Ellis Island very quickly when we go to visit them you know. I was going to do it this time over the July 4th weekend but it was not such a good time because it was going to be so busy and probably the safety part of it she said is not that good either you know, so– HD: Yeah, I want to go back to thinking about when your parents came through Ellis Island, do you know why they came, and did they come directly to Johnson City? PH: No, actually the reason why they came was just to have a better life from what they had and the fact at that time, this was in the early 1900s, you know, the lifestyle there was a lot different than it is today. So, I am sure they had hard times and they wanted to better their lives and everything that is why they came over here. My dad first came through Ellis Island and was in the Scranton, Olyphant area in Pennsylvania, and I did have an uncle in Olyphant but since then he has passed away so I have not really followed that that lineage there. But he worked in the coal mine for a while, did not like that so he heard about uh “which way EJ [Endicott-Johnson Shoe Company]” and decided to come to Johnson city and actually that was part of it but he had a farm outside of Windsor for a while and then left that and was in an apartment in Binghamton and then that is when he started working for EJ’s. HD: Okay, so he sold the farm then, in order to work at the factory? PH: I would think that he did but you know it was like 258 acres that they had but the funny part about it is, you know, all the EJ workers were building their own homes in Georgia for foot to mortgage and everything else you know. He was a phenomenal person and he built this area up you know really Johnson city but my dad bought a house on Harry L drive and it was just like a two-family house. He put an addition on, how he did it I have no idea, and but it ended up where he paid for that house too. So, I do not know where there a mortgage to EJ’s or not I do not really know. HD: Is the house still here? PH: Yes. In the corner of Harry L drive in Pearl Avenue. That is where I was born and raised. There is a little story about that house I will have to tell you afterwards, or I can tell you now. HD: Actually, tell us now I am very curious. PH: When I was probably about 12 years old or so. There is an empty lot next to our house and the Oasis restaurant. It was bout and the whole side of the building came a part like this and you know all the glass and everything and the glass in our house was gone and everything, and I remember that, you know. HD: I bet, I think anyone would… that must have frightened you. PH: But the reason why was he was still selling bears for five cents a glass and had to be the mafia or something and after that he you know followed the rules I guess. HD: Raised the price. PH: Yeah. HD: Wow. Was the Oasis Restaurant owned by a Ukrainian? PH: Yes, Mr. Golitruck. HD: Okay, I heard… We interviewed Mike, one of my students did so– PH: But we grew up with that family actually, you know, so he was very instrumental and keeping the Ukrainian traditions going because he loved the dancing and the plays that they used to have and he brought in student teachers then was Avramenko who was well-known and everything and he gave a class here that my brother and my sister were in that first class. So, this I think was before our church was even built. HD: This is a class in Ukrainian dance? PH: Ukrainian dance right, and plays and– HD: So, what was the name of the instructor again? PH: Vasyl Avramenko. HD: Avramenko, okay. PH: Yeah. HD: Okay. Very interesting. Um– PH: I never met him [laughs]. HD: [laughs] PH: I had the pamphlet that they had though, you know, so. HD: So, your mother’s family; are they also from former Austria-Hungary? PH: Yes. HD: From the same region? PH: Actually, if you are looking at Poland now; here is Poland here is Ulychne right here and down about, you know, I do not know maybe fifty miles or less maybe ten miles, I do not know, is Tara Vavruska. That is where my mum was from. HD: Okay. PH: So, it is the same area; Austria-Hungary. HD: Okay. Further south. PH: I do not know when they met, where they met, anything of that nature, you know. And during the war, before the second World War and a little bit afterwards my mum always kept correspondence with her family, you know, and in the late forties is when all correspondence stopped. So, she could not get a hold on them anymore and this was because the Polish and the Russian government split up the families and their whole family was split up. So, actually I ended up meeting my uncle Leon Gancevich when I was over there with my daughter Pan. And he lived right next to the German border, so that is where he was transported from one side of Poland and they split up the whole families. You could not go two people from one family going to the same place. Split them all up. HD: So, this was deliberate then? PH: Yes, yes yeah! HD: Wow! Um go– PH: But actually, a lot of it was the Russian influence too not only the Polish influence you know, but um, yeah. HD: But now you are… are you in touch with anyone else on your mother’s side apart from– PH: I was with Leon in fact, my two granddaughters when they came and met us he brought us his brother and, no must be his son. And then two granddaughters and they had just taken two years of English. So, they were the interpreters because I could not speak Polish, I could understand a little bit of Ukrainian but, and that is a different story too. HD: That means they grew up speaking Polish not Ukrainian? PH: Yes. HD: Okay. That makes sense. PH: Well actually, you know, like my mum or my dad was Ukrainian but he could speak Polish. My mum was Polish but she could speak Ukrainian, so they talked both languages there. HD: Okay. PH: Possibly even, you know others too, I do not know. But they wanted to learn English especially my mom because my dad working in EJ’s, you know, got a lot of that so he was a citizen already and my mom was not. So, I used to teach her, you know, all the questions and everything that had to be done and that was great. HD: Did your mom learn Ukrainian? PH: Was she what? HD: Did she learn Ukrainian because she grew up she was Polish? PH: She knew Ukrainian, yeah. No, she… You know I would think that she was Ukrainian. I never thought that she was from that side of the, you know, from Polish. But the name of course is a Polish name, you know. So– HD: Very interesting– PH: But I always thought she was Ukrainian. AD: What was the language in the house when you were growing up? PH: It is very interesting because both my parents wanted to learn English and of course, you know, my growing up I could not really do too much with them but my brothers and sisters did too while they were still living there. So, I kind of grew up by myself because by the time I was 12 or so or younger my brothers and sister had already been married and moved out of the house. So, they were stuck with me [laughs]. HD: How many of them? How many children were there in your family? PH: Five; two brothers and two sisters. Yeah, in fact this year, my two older sisters passed away; one at 92 and one at 96, and one in February and one in April. Yeah, so we came back from Florida a little bit quicker, than what we wanted too, you know, and my first sister Annie passed away in February, so I came back and you know went through all of that and they were sharp as tacks, really, you know, unbelievable. And my sister Mary especially, you know. But I spent some time with them before and I came home about a week before my sister Mary passed away so I came home on a Sunday. I spent a whole day, Monday with her, she lives in Port Crane and we talked for about two hours, you know. And she says I am getting better every day. So, you know, and I talked to her every day, went up there a couple of times and talked to her on Saturday before she passed away. So, it was nice. HD: Did everyone stay in this region, so your brothers and both of your sisters? PH: Yes, both of my brothers did, both of my sisters did. HD: And are they all members of this church? PH: Yes, well no my two brothers married couple of Polish girls from St. Stanislaus so, that was the church that they went to, you know. They stayed with their wives. HD: Okay. PH: But we are a family we are still very close. HD: Yeah, and I guess my other questions do you all in your homes maintain Ukrainian or Polish right, some sort of homeland tradition and practices? PH: Mostly Ukrainian. HD: Okay. So, this is intriguing to me. Why the Ukrainian when you also have Polish in your heritage? Do you have any idea? PH: I think a lot depends on the traditions, you know, as far as our immediate family it was always Ukrainian, and actually my wife was Catholic, Roman Catholic, we got married in a Roman Catholic Church but I stayed with St. John’s and she stayed with Saint James and at that time the Catholic religion was changing a little bit you know, it went from Latin to English, and then they had music in the churches and everything else too, you know, so she was kind of disenchanted with that, so I think about three years into our marriage she, we sat with father and Pani and uh she decided to change. So, she did. She is a great Ukrainian, Polish– HD: [laughs] PH: And Slovak. [laughs]. She was Polish and Slovak, yeah. HD: Okay, that makes sense, um now with your wife’s family, was she also born in Johnson City, did she grow up in Johnson City? PH: I did not, she did. HD: And her parents worked at EJ? PH: Actually, her dad worked at EJ’s first, her parent her mom they had eight kids so she was a stay-at-home mom. Then he left EJ’s and worked for IBM. He worked evenings because he was an avid golfer so he would golf during the daytime and worked at night. HD: Wow! [laughs]. So, before I wanted before I talk about your own family, you know, raising kids, I am really curious about um life on the street, near where you grew up because you know there was Ukrainian quarter store, the Oasis is Ukrainian restaurant, there are two, now there are two Ukrainian churches on this hill, there must have been a lot of Ukrainian people living on the same street, what was it like when you– PH: Yes and no. They were kind of spread out all over the place. I mean there is a couple of families on Myrtle avenue, there is, there quite a few on Pearl avenue, some on Harry L drive, you know right in that whole section on the North side primarily. And it was because there was a church there and the church originally was in a grocery store. It was Kiriam’s grocery store on Harry L Drive that was where they had services to begin with. And then they went from there when the church was built they went from there and right up to the church on Virginia Avenue. And that was in, the church was built in 1929 but the church itself was started like in 1926 that was when they had a Ukrainian community there, you know. And my parents were one of the founding families also. So, there were you know quite a few families and it was interesting how they started though, you know, so– HD: So, when you had time to play as a kid, did you mostly play with your siblings, did you go on the street and play with other kids on the street, did you go to the church? PH: Not my siblings were– HD: They were older– PH: Yeah, they were older so, and actually none of them graduated from high school. I was the first son to graduate from high school. HD: Interesting– PH: So, in those days, you worked, you know as soon as you could you support the family and help the family and both my brothers worked for Endicott Johnson. They both had Endicott Johnson homes, you know. So, that was one of the things too, you know. Maybe my brother Nicks was not in an EJ home, I do not know but my brother Joe’s was. He was the oldest one anyway. But my growing up we had about 20 or 30 guys in that whole neighborhood but like over two or three streets and everything, and very active but especially sports, you know. But we did not, you know, twelve years old when father and Pani came here. That’s a different story I will get into that after, but actually our neighborhood was just strictly, you know with the boys we played Kick the Can in the street and other things you know. Hide and go seek, kids I do not think do that anymore [laughs], except maybe in the house. HD: [laughs], yeah-yeah. PH: But it was a great growing up, you know. And my parents were fantastic, I mean we had no car, did not have a car we walked every place, you know. And they were great parents. HD: So, your father walked to work? He worked to EJ? PH: Yeah. Walked to EJ’s. I walked to high school. I walked to Harry L Drive; I walked to Johnson City High school to see Fred. You know, so I did walk. HD: Wow! PH: Getting little tears in my eyes. HD: [laughs]… What about, how much was the church a center of social life beyond just Sunday? PH: For me it was and anybody in that age range really was more when father and Pani came when I was 12 years old, but there was a lot before that because I was an altar boy at seven that was usually when you can become an altar boy and we had, we did not have Ukrainian dancing then. I mean there, I think there was an older group but we also were very instrumental and singing our Christmas Carols on the seventh of January, and we used to go from house to house when I was a kid you know we started Ukrainian school at the age seven and it was five days a week from four to five o’clock in the afternoon. I hated every minute of it, because that was when we played in the neighborhood, you know after school. So, as a consequence our teachers were not that good and probably was a priest or somebody else I remember, you know, and as a consequence I did not learn very much Ukrainian and my parents did not teach me Ukrainian. They wanted know English. So, you know I spoke to them in English and they spoke to me in an Americanized Ukrainian, you know, so that is how we got along. But, you know, like I said at that time like when I was seven, I think my sister Annie maybe still home but my two brothers and older sister were not, you know, so, but I feel badly about that now because I started in a choir when father and Pani came I was under a couple of other priests as an altar boy but when I came when I was 12 when they came in he wanted to start the choir so he put me in the choir and took me of the altar because he had a lot of altar boys. So, I started singing tenor in a choir now I am a bass [all laugh] but since I was 12 so I am still, you know, I have been singing almost 72 years. HD: You are still there. Wow! PH: In a choir so. HD: And I have heard your choir, it is beautiful. PH: It used to be a larger choir than what it is now, but you know and it was great, all my kids sang in a choir too in order once; my son Mark, my daughter Pam and the other ones did not sing too much there but they know all the Christmas and carol’s and things. So, when I was seven they had a children’s choir that we went. We used to walk in Johnson city just couple of streets in a winter time in a snow and that is how we did it, you know, they had another regular choir from our church choir that went around and you know to all the houses and things and they had an adult choir. They used to go to all the Oasis’ and night clubs, not the night clubs but the other beer joints or whatever restaurants… so we had three choirs back in those days. HD: So, I am curious because you know this hill that the churches on, there are a lot of EJ houses and the streets go straight up the hill. Did you walk up those hills? PH: Oh, yes. HD: How did you have enough breath to sing [laughs]? Wow! PH: You know it is funny because growing up we had the CFJ pool, you could swim there for nothing. We did not do that. We used to build dams in a creek you know, and we had that were six and eight feet deep. That was how they were. So that is what we did. That was kids growing up but we still went to the CFJ pool too. But that is where we played in the creek you know. We used to play under water tag and you know water was clear so we would get side throw it in, dirty the water up so you could not see anything. That is how we played. [all laugh]. HD: Most people want clean water, right? PH: Well, you know, we did not so we could not see each other you know. HD: Yeah, that is great. PH: That is great and then, as far as walking up to hills, we used play in the hills all the time, and we would also go up Stella Island Road to, it used to be a dairy farm up there that had a little pond. So, we used to, we even built a damn that far up in a creek you know, so that was up until I was like 12 years old or so, you know. So that is what we did. HD: So, the rule was you could play until supper time? PH: Uh Actually, when I was going to the Ukrainian school from like about 7 until 10 I think, I think after that I do not know what happened, maybe it was more than that, you know, tough to remember back [all laugh] that time, you just remember the good things in, but else happened you know. So, the neighborhood itself really very-very, you know, it was just really a good bringing up, you know, kids do not do that anymore. And right on the corner across the street from us was Collis’ grocery store and a gas station there. So that was always the headquarters. We would always be sitting there. So, my mother came out about 9 o’clock at night and say, she would say, Peedie come home [laughs] and I would get embarrassed all the time. So, I was probably one of the youngest ones in that group, you know, of the 20 or 30 that we had. So, I was the all-time center in a football team. I get killed all the time, and we used to get on a bus in Johnson City on Main Street travel to Endicott with our football gear on, play an Endicott team and come back on a bus. The parents never took us anywhere, of course my parents did not have a car but the other parents did not take us anyplace either, you know. So, this is how we grew up. HD: Did your wife grow up in the same neighborhood? PH: She grew up on Reynolds Road which was kind of the Oakdale such in a Johnson City. That is where she went to school; Oakdale. All of our group went to Harry L Drive. So that is what it is now. It is an apartment house or a nursing home now. HD: So how did you meet your wife? PH: That is a good story [laughs]. It had to be I think about 1956 because I got home from the service then and I was tending bar at Saint Jon’s social club and some of the girls from our church were good friends with her. And they came down and I think it had to be when she was 18 because I think I made her, her first screwdriver, so you know, I remember that and she remembers that. So, that is when we met, you know, we just met to say hello that was it, you know. And a couple of the girls from my church were in her same little group in school. So that is how I met. So, I became interested and uh actually I was about uh 26 when I got married and she always she was thirteen. [all laugh]. But she was not. So, a couple years after that we got married. I think the following year it had to be, no it had to be let us see more than maybe (19)57 is when I went to Georgetown and second year is when we got married, my second year after Georgetown. HD: So, why did you go to Georgetown? PH: Dental school. HD: Okay. PH: At first, I, actually I got out of the high school in 1950. I worked for a year I did not go to college, and I worked as a bookkeeper and truck loader at Douglas Collins Supply Company for a year. And then I went to Broome which was not Broome then it was New York State Institute of Applied arts and Sciences. So, I went there for two years in Chemistry. I thought I was going to be a chemical engineer. And I got interested in Dentistry after I have got out of service. But before that there is no reason why I would become a dentist as a youngster and we did not have regular dental care or anything, you know, so I went to the EJ dental clinic and I had three first molars extracted– HD: Not a great experience! PH: So, how would I want to be a dentist you know– HD: Oh, no. [laughs]. PH: So, those teeth actually came in, my third, my second and my wisdom teeth came in, three of them and I just had one wisdom tooth that I have had taken out eventually. But that was it. HD: So, when were you on service? PH: 1954 to 1956. HD: Okay. PH: I was in a Signal Corps, and I went to a foreign country, Puerto Rico. HD: Oh. [laughs] PH: For two years. HD: Was it a good experience? PH: Yes, very much so. HD: So, anybody else, I do not know how it works in military, is there anyone else from this region that went with you, signed up at the same time, ended up in the same area? PH: There were two that came from this area that went to… we had to go up to Syracuse for a physical, and once we went through there, we went to basic training together but then we got split up during basic training. HD: Okay, and then you met your wife after you came back? PH: Yes. HD: You said was the Saint John’s social club? So, tied to this church? PH: Yeah. HD: Interesting. PH: That is in the memorial center, still is there. HD: Okay, so was it open every evening or once a week? PH: Well, I think it was open every evening back then, yeah. HD: And they had a bar you said? PH: They had a bar, yeah. And of course, I would be in the bar we did not get paid or anything but you know that is how it was. HD: And did a lot of people come including people from outside the Ukrainian community? PH: When I was a bartender we had, we made the most out of anybody there that whole month. HD: [laughs] That is great. PH: Because I got all my friends in, you know so. HD: Yeah. So that whole crowd of 20 or 30 you hang out with, did they all come? PH: Well not that many but a few, yeah. HD: Okay, that is really good. So, now you met your wife, in that interlude between meeting your wife and actually marrying your wife, for instance when you brought her home, I mean your parents are already Ukrainian-Polish mixed, so they must have been thrilled, did they care what her background was? PH: My mother said why you do not marry a nice Ukrainian girl. HD: What [laughs], okay? PH: But my wife Phyllis was fantastic, you know. HD: Yeah, they could not… what about her family? Did they want a nice Polish boy? PH: No, not really. I just taught her mother a little Ukrainian saying, and once I told her what it was that was it you know. So, she loved me from that time on. HD: What was the saying? PH: [all laugh]. In fact, I told Phyllis this too, so she memorized it, I did not tell her what it was. [speaking Ukrainian] HD: Okay, and can we have the quote? What does it mean? PH: “How are the chickens shitting?” HD: Oh. [laughs] PH: So once her mother knew that, that was it. HD: That is very funny. [laughs] PH: [speaking Ukrainian] HD: Yeah. So, now– PH: So actually, I met her that first time after my first year in dental school, so the second year is, or it had to be the first year that I met her because then we start going out through now like, she would not go out at first and then we did go out for like two weeks and that was it. And I was wearing a new outfit just about as much as I could so after first week or a week and a half so I had to go back to what I wore before actually and she did not but I did not know she was borrowing clothes from her girlfriends. HD: [laughs] Oh, that is great. PH: Yeah, she had a different outfit on all the time. So, we went for two weeks we had such great time. We went out every night after the first date. You know. HD: Where did people go? PH: We went to, first date, we went to Schnitzel bank which was a restaurant on upper Court Street, and they had these little straws and we used to break them and it would fly up to the ceiling so we kept doing that we just had such a good time and good dinner and everything, and then after that we went to one of the pick stands in Endicott and that was it we had such a good time. HD: So now you… after you went to dental school, you got married– PH: I got married after my second year of dental school. HD: After your second year? PH: Yeah. HD: Okay. PH: During the second year. HD: When you finished dental school, did you work for someone else? Did you set up your own dental office? PH: I was already accepted to Ortho-school when I was a senior I had applied and we had our first child then, and it was like in May of the year I was supposed to go up to Buffalo for an interview, Pam was being born, she was born in April but she was. It was still, you know, was not ready to… it was the first part of April. I was in the middle of the final exams and had no money to go from Washington D.C. to Buffalo, so I called and told them, and said I cannot do it. So they put me on an alternate list and so when I got out of school, when I graduated, I worked for another orthodontist, Dr. Orchard in Binghamton and of course they wanted me to come in to the practice and everything too you know, but I was only there a couple of weeks and set up a preceptorship program and at that time you could do it that way but it had to be approved by the American Orthodontic Association. So, it was approved but the problem was I set up the program and you know, so I did not get much input from Dr. Orchard. So, I knew I could not get the education I needed so I was there like two months and it was approved and everything and I called Buffalo again and they said well come up for an interview which I did, and when I, they said well we will accept you the following September. So, when I went back and told Dr. Orchard he was not very happy but I told him why and I said, it is changing and everything and you just have to have the education. So that is what happened. But he still had me on a payroll and everything, you know I was getting 75 dollars a week and that is what kept us going so, that was really you know. That is how it was. So, when I came back after that of course during that first year with Dr. Orchard is when Dr. Mark was born and we went up to actually I went up to Buffalo myself for three months, my wife came up after about three months or so, and she was expecting then and that is where Jeffry was born in Buffalo. So, Pam was born in Washington… right where one of the Kennedy’s was born at the same time so, I met him there when I was… We watched him coming to the hospital, you know and everything. Pam was interesting because that was our first born and we did not know what was up or down and the OB guy we had was fantastic, you know, he did not charge us a nickel and the… he wanted to know what kind of anesthesia you wanted, you know, and my wife did not want any pain she said I do not want to feel any pain or anything baba so we had a general anesthesia, believe it or not they do not do that anymore. HD: No! PH: So Pam’s first breath was taken after about 12 minutes after she was born and I have it right on her medical records and everything and I did not get that until Pam became, she went to nursing school at Georgetown, So I said pull up your record and make a copy for, you know, so she did 12 minutes underlined in red first breath, so of course they did not cut the umbilical cord anything you know but that is what happened. HD: So, now we asked before the interview, but I am looking at the information again now how many children do you have? PH: Six. HD: Six. How many boys, how many girls? PH: Three boys, three girls. HD: Okay, and do they all still live in this area? PH: All live in the area except my daughter Pam who, not Pam but Nicole who married a boy and from Massapequa park in Long Island and they came here, they lived in New Jersey for a while, they came back here and he got his MBA at SUNY Binghamton and so they lived here for a while then at that time he was working after that he worked for IBM for a little bit of time, then once his friend from Wall Street was a managing director up in stockbrokerage firm in Boston and he took a job up there. So, you know they got them a free ride up there and everything else and he became actually a managing director himself while he was up there. So, she is in Boston my other daughter Christie when Nicole got married another boy from Massapequa park was in the wedding ceremony too so he kind of liked Christie so they were going back and forth and they got engaged and disengaged and got engaged and then finally got married, so then she moved to Massapequa park. That is where she is now. The other four stayed here. HD: And what events… I think you said that they come… everybody comes and they gather here for Ukrainian Christmas? PH: Ukrainian Christmas right, on the 7th of January– HD: And the Festival, in mid of July. PH: Oh, the ones that can, make it from out of town. But they usually do and we do it on Easter, so our Easter is always… so it is different from American Easter, they would all come in the town on Easter. And my wife does all the cooking. AD: Ukrainian? Does she cook Ukrainian? PH: Yeah. Well we have Haluski and Pierogi and you know. HD: So also, how many grandchildren do you have? PH: Nineteen. HD: And how many great grandchildren? PH: One and a half. [all laugh]. One year old, she is like fifteen or sixteen months. She is unbelievable. You know, she calls me Beepa. Well, Pam called us Meema and Beepa, she could say Grandme and Grandpe, so my wife is a Meema, I am a Beepa. We used to have that on a license plate, but we do not have it anymore. HD: So, raising you children, was important to you that they knew something about Ukrainian tradition? PH: Well they were involved in a church all the way through their young life, adult life and afterwards. HD: So, what is it…? What aspects of Ukrainian culture are particularly valuable you think for your children and grandchildren? PH: Well we have to go back to when father and Pani came in 1945 because they were a big influence on us, and they had the ability to be a member of everybody’s life, you know. Everybody thought that you know, they were part of their family which is really true. So, we used to say to our kids, if you do not behave we are going to tell father and Pani. So that was kind of a hammer over their heads you know, but they were fantastic people. And they instilled the traditions, you know the caroling, the dancing. They started the dance group when they first came. And I was 12 then but she said to the boys then and there was a couple of thirteen, fourteen look you do not have the dance with any of the girls, you just do the sort dance and the woodcutters and bluh-bluh … So, then we did that for a little bit of time and then she kind of introduced us to the female aspect of it with dancing, you know we did not dance with girls then, you know. It is different in today but that is what happened. So, we had a great dance group. We probably gave pretty close over that ten-year period time that I danced probably over 100 premises you know all over the country. We used to do it for the EJ dinners and stuff that they had there too. We would have dancing there. We also had an Andrews Sisters act that we put on too myself, George Stasko and John Milwaukee and we did that for a while too but somewhere in those books. HD: So, when you were raising your children, and it might not be even a Ukrainian thing, right what were some of the… what are some of the traditions that brings your children seem to cherish and really want to hold on to, the things that really brought your family together? PH: Well I think it has to be the main stays for the Ukrainian music, you know, the Christmas Carols, the choir carols and things. It had to do with the dancing because they all grew up when they were, started dancing, at two to three year of age and they still do. And it had to be the Christmas celebrations, the Easter celebrations, so and then on January the 7th we used to carol from house to house. And we still do that today, and right now we go… we used to go by cars all the time you know, in the snow and sometimes all the cars would get there sometimes they would not, they get lost or whatever. Now we have a bus, and we all get on a bus and you know, even the young ones and we go. HD: That is great! PH: Yeah. HD: So, do all your children go to Ukrainian Orthodox Churches? PH: Uh-huh. Yep. HD: Great. PH: My daughter goes to… there is a Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Boston but we go also to an Albanian one. It is the same divine liturgy and everything so, because it is close by and the Southern one is you quite a distance yeah when we go up there we go to Albanian Church. But we have gone to the Ukrainian Orthodox too, so. HD: So, this is something I am curious about too; and it is not necessarily though Ukrainian history per say because the liturgy is shared even though the language changes from one church to the next an Orthodox tradition, do you find you can go to any Orthodox Church and feel very much at home. PH: It is the same Divine Liturgy that may put in a few of the ethnic languages in there but it is all the same Divine Liturgy, you know, and actually Orthodoxy was before Catholicism. So, that is how it started, you know. And so, it goes back, you know that far. HD: That is right. PH: But it has not changed. It is the same Divine Liturgy, you know. HD: What about icons, do you have icons at home? PH: Uh-huh HD: Okay, and are they for religious purposes or are they art? PH: Well, as far as icons are concerned, in our home themselves, we have some but it is not like you would have a lot of them, you know. There was a church in Dover, Florida that a monk built himself. He was actually a doctor and worked in University of Tampa, and that is the most icons I have ever seen in any place. He brought them back from Ukraine and you know, and it was just fantastic, it was a small church almost like almost like our old Church on Virginia Avenue, and he built a rectory actually it was a monastery and he built a memorial center with his own money and I have been there quite a few times and actually whenever the metropolitan, at that time he was a bishop and an archbishop but now he is metropolitan but, would come in to town there so he would always call us and say you got to go to Dover you know because I will be there. That was when we went to Dover. And it was about an hour plus drive from where we were and but I am talking about the young canister, so that is the most I have ever seen. I have been to Ukraine a couple of times and I have been to some of the museums there and everything. Iconography, was you know, was very big there. So– HD: I mean my question was in part whether very traditionally in you know Ukrainian peasant homes or Russian peasant homes they would have an icon corner for instance, right? PH: Yeah. HD: And so, I am wondering if anything of that was carried over to North America an antique in contemporary homes? PH: Well I think it has in a lot of the homes and things. It was not necessarily in ours to begin with. And the iconography, Andreov who lives in Lisle or Whitney Point one of those places was the one that was instrumental and did our iconography behind the altar here, so and that actually was… I was on that iconography committee and it almost split the church in half because of what was happening, Andreov was actually Russian iconographer and it was not so much him as it was the priest we had at that time father Zaroski and who was from Lviv in Ukraine and I have been in Lviv which is a beautiful city and that is a whole different story there but the thing is, the iconography seemed to divide the church because of things they were happening and what they wanted to put up there and what they did not, you know, we had a committee and the committee decided which… what we should have and during like in the middle part of the thing the iconographer wanted to put in a couple of seraphym and cherabum and just we did not want have that in there. So, we took that part out of it, out, and then what happened is that we got a call and I got a call and one of the other guys on the committee called said you know, you got what you wanted now. You wanted these angels on each side of the icon wall and that is where he wanted on the outside of the icon wall, not on the inside where the icon is. You know, so they put it, he put it on the inside without telling the committee or doing anything and you know that kind of you know really made it hard and half the church was okay with-it half was not, you know, so that is really what happened. HD: I do have to say as someone who is not a member of the church and who is not really well-versed in iconography it is a real pleasure to come into a church like that, and I grew up Calvinist, there were no images, and so it is a particular… it brings joy, you know to see it. PH: Right, it does. Icons actually do that. They really do. HD: Yeah. So, we have been talking for over an hour and I do not want to– PH: We have been talking that long? HD: Yeah. So, is there something that I did not ask you that you really wanted to share or were hoping I would ask you? PH: I had somethings here that not about my… but I did on jobs and things I do not think that is really important although I had some very unusual once. Growing up we used to pick beans on a daily basis, peas and beans and a truck would pick us up right on Harry L drive, we go to the fields pick the beans, used get fifty cent a bushel, and it took you a long time to do a bushel. [laughs] HD: Oh, yeah. PH: So, and then drop you off at night. Well one summer, they slogged it, some of the guys in our group, we went up to Norwich and we stayed there for like two, almost three months during the summer. No parents, no parental control, nothing you know, just us, but it was our same group from the area, you know, plus they had other people too, you know but so we pick beans and peas for almost two and a half months. HD: Where did you stay? PH: We stayed in shacks that they had, you know it was kind… like you would see in the movies– HD: Shacks without houses? PH: Shacks with you know bedroom and then they had an outhouse and everything you know. But that is where we used to stay in. AD: How old were you? PH: I had to be probably, probably I was in thirteen, fourteen, 12, 13, 14 area range. HD: This is interesting too, so you worked. This would have been a summer job. PH: Yeah, a summer job. HD: Did you keep your wages or you expected to contribute to the family? PH: Actually, if I remember right I kept my wages. And I remember buying a very colorful sweater and that was it, you know [all laughs]. And when my mother saw that she said, you know, how much did you pay for this, you know, so but we did not make a lot of money, you know, but it was more of… we used to go swimming in a river there, you know, so it was just that was what we did here too, you know, we swam in a river in the Susquehanna many times. HD: How did you find that job? Like did someone come to your high school was– PH: No, this was the job that they did during the summer. These trucks would come and if you wanted to work, that is how you pick peas and beans. HD: Oh, you just went down to Harry L and– PH: yeah, they would just pick us up, you know– HD: Interesting. PH: we probably had 10 or 12 guys went, you know from our area here. And– HD: Did women ever go? Was it mostly young people? PH: Mostly I do not remember too many women going, no. There were no women at the thing in Norwich, they were just men. HD: Oh, yeah, very interesting. Is there anything else? PH: I took Chemistry, you know at Broome, and I was hired by Columbia Gas in Pittsburgh because my next-door neighbor worked for Columbia Gas here, so he said why you do not see what they have, you know. They have an opening there. So, I called and two of us from the class went there and we were accepted. We were building a Chemistry lab, took us two weeks to do that, got all the equipment and everything for testing corrosion on a gas pipeline. Okay, so we had that all done in two weeks. I get a call on entry office and the bus wants me to Willing West Virginia in charge of a 26-inch gas construction line, and you do the corrosion on it too. So, I said I do not know anything about construction or anything he said well, just check with the supervisor, that was it, you know. So went myself by myself, you know I went in for the power wagon and things drove all the way down from Pittsburgh to Willing, West Virginia. It was the first time I was in a power wagon [laughs] had no idea what to expect but anyway a good old redneck all-timer took me under his wing and we got the job done. I am sitting in the dugout where the pipeline is going, you know, and I am checking, putting in some test wires and things and I get up to go out and here is the pipeline up above and a cable snaps bang right where I was sitting– HD: Oh, wow! PH: So, that was I remember that experience very clearly, so yeah. That was kind of-of unusual, you know, then another one I had to do as I had, after that was done, I was put me on another job there was just the two of us from Broome tech and four engineers and I went with this one engineer to Cumberland, Maryland to put in a six foot carbon thing in a water tank, you know these big water tanks you had to climb up and everything. So, I was with this engineer who was afraid of heights. So, I had to carry everything up on that back and forth, a settling torch and all through you know put it on the well into the tank and everything and that was probably one of the worst jobs I have ever had. You know, that was– HD: yeah, so who was sending you on these jobs? Who was your employer, who was sending you on these jobs? PH: It was the guy who was in charge of the corrosion, the department. He was in charge of, he and four other engineers, and the two of us that set up the… and the other guy went with was the guy who was testing the corrosion lines in lab but I did not do that [all laugh]. HD: So, you did this and then before you went to the service? PH: Yeah. HD: Very interesting. PH: After, in fact I came home and worked for six weeks at home, putting in corrosion lines from where Quaker Lake is from that area north for about six weeks, so I put in all the corrosion lines along that pipeline. And then I went back to Pittsburgh and I got drafted. So, they wanted to keep me out, I said no I am going to go in, not knowing– HD: Where– PH: You know, so I was like had to be like about 22 years old. HD: So, was it the experience of having to climb up that water tank that made you decide to be a dentist? PH: No, [all laugh]. I got interested in dentistry after I got out of the service really, and I checked into it and I needed one-year biology in order to get in to the criteria that I needed for dental school. So, I checked with one of the dentists who was a New York State president, New York State Dental Society Dr. Irvy and he said do not go to dentistry. He said it is changing so badly that you know and of course I did not know anything about orthodontics then either but I said well, I still thought being your own boss and you know and doing everything you know that would be the thing to do, so that is what I did. AD: So, your son took over your practice, he is the only other one who studied orthodontics? PH: My youngest son is also a general dentist. AD: Okay. PH: And I let him make up their own mind, I did not push him into dentistry or anything else. So, he did about the same thing that Mark did. So, to get into Eastman Dental you usually have to have two years of general practice, general dental practice and so, Mark and Peter both went to general practice residency in Eastman, first year, second year they took a TMJ, temporomandibular joint course for a year and then you could get into orthodontic school. Right now, I have a grandson Patrick who just graduated from Buffalo Dental. He is accepted to the Orthodontic program at Eastman. He started in 27th of this month, without any experience. That was probably because Mark was on the staff of Eastman Dental, because he still goes up there and teaches up there. So, that is great and Patrick could come back in maybe go take over Mark’s practice. HD: Do you have any family members who work in the practice like behind the desk? PH: Oh, yeah. Well, my wife took care of the pay rolling, when she was when I was working. Both Mark worked in the lab in fact when he was a senior in high school. I sent him up to Buffalo for a week to learn how to all the models and retainers and things, ok, so that was his experience there. All my other kids who worked in the office do as much as I could get them… Mark’s kids do too. AD: Was your office like his office, because we call his office like Disney world? PH: I was in a home. It was Doctor Orchard’s practice, and actually there is an apartment upstairs, and it was a small, you know, we had four operatory and it was tiny but we used all the space that you could. So, Mark was in there about ten years. And I was there when three years after Mark took over. So, that is where it started. It was not like Disney world but we did a lot of nice things you know. We started the scholarship things he gives out every year; ten scholarships, ten or twelve. AD: Yes, he uses a lot of character work is that from you? PH: Well that is when we were together, yeah, we started that. And but he is the entrepreneur too, you know. That is really good. So, he takes a school, you know at least one student from each school is gets a scholarship, you know, so. In fact, he just got something from the Binghamton School system too because we give things to the health area you know and some other things there that he has been doing all that time too. You know so. It is we started way back when… So, it is nice. Yeah. HD: It is great. AD: I always ask this question, so I will ask you too. So how do you identify yourself? PH: How do I identify myself? AD: Yes, like when people ask let us say you are somewhere they do not know you, and how would you say I am American– PH: I am Peter Hatala, you know. I am Ukrainian. AD: So, you say I am Ukrainian? PH: Yeah. AD: Okay. PH: I mean if you get into that conversation, yes. AD: Of course, like when you get in. So, being Ukrainian is part of your identity? PH: But usually I say oh, I have six children and 19 grandchildren. [all laugh] AD: Of course. PH: I do not say one and a half grandchildren. So– AD: So how about your children? Do they identify themselves as Ukrainian or American-Ukrainian? PH: I think they would say Ukrainian also. Of course, American-Ukrainian, you know. Yeah, I think they would. AD: So that is still, that is really important; that it is still continuing that– HD: Did your children marry Ukrainians? PH: No. Pam married an Irish man. Actually, when they came back to this area, they came back here. They continued dancing in their adult lives, Bill was Irish and he did Ukrainian dancing, you know. HD: Especially there is a lot of work for the men– PH: I remember singing at Robinson and putting on, not only the singing, you know the choir, but also, they were dancing and both Pam and Bill were dancing at the time there, so yeah. That is Pam; Mark married a redneck from West Virginia [all laugh]. And they still talk to it; she was from Pittsburgh, West Virginia. One red light in the whole town, okay, so we went into this one establishment. There a restaurant and I think they still talk about it, you know. Yeah, that was quite a party. It was interesting because Mark likes to do things unusual too, so when we had the dinner, you know after the ceremony and everything in this one building we found an old black coffin. So, we put Mark in the coffin and carried him in for the dance. HD: Wow! [laughs] PH: Yeah, opened up the coffin and he comes back out and… [laughs] that was a fun time. That was Mark, let us see. The next one would be Jeff who married a Slovak girl from, actually, no she was from Saint Michael’s. That is right. So, she was Slovak Russian I think. And Next one is Nicole she married the Massapequa Park so, and then Christie married the Italian boy from, they are both Italian boys from Massapequa Park. And Peter married a nice girl from Vestal. So– HD: But all their spouses what is interesting if I understand correctly they all participate in Ukrainian traditions? PH: Yeah, all of four peter’s kids they live about three houses up from us, are all dancers now. They are in that book, so, it is great. AD: That is wonderful. So how did you get interested in working with these– PH: Family history? AD: Family, yeah– PH: One of our friends I grew up with was George Stasko left a church after he got married. He did a family history on his family. They had twelve kids in the family. So, you know that was a nice book, I said boy that was a great idea, you know, I am going to do that with my family and I think for the church it would be super. So that is how it started. And I think it started like about I do not know, 19 2011 is when I first got the idea to do it. And we had about fifty families, and these are the families that we have right here, you know and who I gave the books to and everything else. So, but you know we get a few more. I got one from a gal who used to be a dancer in Saint John’s Paticarium; got married and moved out of the area and they are in South Carolina or Virginia someplace like that. She sent back a book, and just recently her husband had some cancer problems and things so, she wanted to get the book back, you know, and she actually she gave it to me to begin with so, I had to copy that whole book [laughs] and you know send back the original to her. So, you know, but that was… but she said is it okay if I, you know keep the copy and everything, she said yeah that would be fine. So– HD: It also looks like you have been doing research into your own family history. PH: I am sorry? HD: It also looks like you have done a lot of researching into your own family? PH: Actually, what happened, Zenon … was instrumental in this? Each year he gives a speech in New York city, they have a seminar, it is all week long in the evenings and everything, and he talked about you know whatever is interesting at that time but one of the people from Poland came over and gave a talk on Ulychne. So, after the program he went up to her and he said you know our church has a lot of people from Ulychne, and she started crying. She was so happy to hear that, you know, so because that was her job in a Polish, I think she works for the Polish government. She is checking on all those people that came over during that time and everything so, I got her name. I emailed her and did not hear anything. About three months later I get a call and it is this Eric and I do not know I cannot remember the last name, it is a good Polish name called me and he… Phyllis would not let him talk to me. And then he says well I want to talk about Ulychne. So as soon as he heard that name I got on the phone. We talked for about an hour at least you know, and he said he wants to start a website on Ulychne and he heard that I was doing you know of that people from our church came so I sent him all that information and everything you know and he did set up the site. www.ulychne.org and this is where I got these things from. And he went, and found both families like this. And I know my father had two brothers and one sister and I knew the sister was in Paris since then she has passed away which I did not really get a chance to talk to her. That is another story anyway but. So that is those are from Ulychne site right there. So, I did get all the rest of my father’s family and I got a lot of my mother’s family, and you know. HD: And is this site is in English, in Polish. PH: English and Polish. HD: Okay, excellent. PH: Yeah. HD: Excellent. So, do you have more questions? AD: No. PH: There is a couple of other things that I did. The timeline on our church with all the priests, the organization and the timeline from 1926 to the current thing. We I still have to finish the last page or so but that is all way up to our current father Evan. HD: And you keep, you mentioned several times father and Pani. PH: Lawryk. HD: You mentioned as someone a Pani Julia. Got it, okay. PH: Yeah, Pani Julia. That is there book over there I would know if you had a chance to look at it– HD: No, not yet. PH: I can pile that one. Right there. He was as close to the Saint as I will ever see. HD: Really? PH: Really, unbelievable. HD: Was he born here or in Ukraine? PH: Oh, that’s father Zolachetski. She has got the one Father Lark. HD: Was he born here? PH: No. I think he was born in Ukraine. His mother was an Obstetrician and he actually was in a Marine Corps before becoming a priest and I just like the front part here was one part but back here is, and this is Pani Lawryk actually. What is a priest is fantastic; I always put that in there. And that is what he wrote into one of our books and everything. But Pani, you know, after he passed away, she moved to Texas where there actually Minneapolis she moved to. Her daughter lived in Texas who passed away. She had an anemia type a thing. And died very early but she went to Minneapolis because that is where she was from and her brother was still out there and everything. And our whole family went to visit her, I been out to her couple of times visit her you know actually with my wife and then we were going to take the whole family for her birthday. So, we did, we all went there all our kids, you know and we came in and did not talk to her that evening. We got in there like, you know afternoon or evening. So, we were going to meet all the next day with her family. So, we were going to have a birthday party for her. She passed away that night. HD: Oh, wow. PH: And we did not know it until the next morning. So, we still went on with the party too you know. HD: You could still celebrate her life. PH: Yeah, that was tough. AD: You mentioned life story of a woman like you said 43, 50 pages long a story right at the beginning of the interview, you were talking about somebody and then you said– HD: They brought up their story. AD: –Am I exaggerating the page numbers? PH: Oh, this is the… no…. Pani Lawryk interviewed her mom while she was still alive. AD: Okay, yeah. PH: And she was born in 1904 and it is in that book, the biography… That is fantastic; I mean it tells how she lived and how they lived in those days and everything. HD: So, I am looking at this book, just looking at the images from father and Pani they seem very charismatic. PH: What? HD: Very charismatic. PH: Yeah. HD: You know a lot of energy. She is very striking actually. AD: She is like an actress, right? HD: Yeah. PH: She was a great dancer too. Yeah. HD: So, we should stop the… Thank you, I want to thank you so much– PH: Okay no problem. AD: Thank you so much. HD: That was really wonderful. PH: Yeah. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian Americans; Immigrants; Ukrainian diaspora; Vestal (N.Y.) ; Ukrainian folk dancing Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Peter Hatala Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Subject The topic of the resource Hatala, Peter. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Church; Ukrainian folk dancing; Broome County (N.Y.) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hatala, Peter ; DeHaan, Heather ; de Rouen, Aynur Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dr. Peter Hatala was born in Johnson City, NY and he is a first-generation Ukrainian American. His father was an immigrant from Ulychne, Ukraine. Dr. Hatala is a retired orthodontist. He is married and resides in Vestal. He has six children and two grandchildren. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-06-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Peter Hatala.WAV Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-23 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 81:41 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5af6aa49103c2dd683874f39fdaef0df.m4a f73744d24fdd19500adfd44d9a545c75 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span> Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gabrielle Samaniego and Isaac Wolf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Peter Solecky Biographical Text Peter Solecky was born in 1946 in Munich, Germany. His mother, father, and two younger siblings came to America in 1951. They traveled through Ellis Island (their signatures are still there to this day) and eventually settled in Binghamton, New York. Solecky attended Rochester Institute of Technology and graduated with a bachelor’s degree in engineering science in 1969. He later returned to school for his master’s degree in Electrical Engineering at the University of Vermont. He lives in Binghamton, NY with his wife and two children. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 60:11 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-06 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Solecky, Peter.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=PeterSolecky.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Germany; Refugee camps; World War, 1939-1945; Poland; Famines; Binghamton (N.Y.) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Peter Solecky Interviewed by: Gabrielle Samaniego and Isaac Wolf Transcriber: Gabrielle Samaniego and Isaac Wolf Date of interview: 6 April 2016 at 10:00 am Interview Setting: Sacred Heart Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Isaac Wolf: I'm Isaac and this is Gabrielle and we are interviewing you for Binghamton University. What you tell us will go into the Historical Archives. Gabrielle Samaniego: Ok, so let's start out with, where were you born? Peter Solecky: Munich. GS: Oh is your family from there? PS: No my family is from the Ukraine. My mother was from central Ukraine, and my father was from south-- southeast corner of Poland which changed from Ukraine to Poland to Ukraine. He was born when it was Ukraine. After he was born it became Poland. You know sometimes they ask-- Are you Ukrainian or Polish? Right now it's Polish. GS: So how did you end up being born in Germany? PS: During the war of course, Hitler sent all his people to the front. They had no body to work the farms or factories, or very few people to work there. So every place he conquered like Poland and Ukraine or anywhere else that he took over, he took volunteers. He decided who volunteered. See my father was volunteered at the age of 16. My mother was volunteered at the age of 13. She actually ran away, because her father was very abusive. At 13, she decided to leave and ran away, you got to give a lot of credit to have a lot of nerve to do that. GS: By herself at 13? PS: Yeah. GS: Wow. PS: And they both ended up on the same farm rather than working in a factory, in Mittenwald, which is up about 5 kilometers from Munich. And uh, they worked in the farms, my father worked in the fields and my mother was milking the cows. IW: Was working on the farm considered to be more desirable than working in a factory? PS: It all depended. If you worked for someone that was good, in either the farm or factory, you could have had a respectable life. My father ended up with a boss who was decent not great but he actually fed him and took care of him. But it really all depended on who was running the show. GS: How long did you stay in Germany? PS: My parents stayed from 1943-1946, and I was born in '46. GS: And then where did you guys move to? PS: We moved here, we were on the D.P. camp, the displaced persons camp. Everyone in a D.P. camp did one of two things, either they went home where they original came from, or they decided not to go home because things were a lot worse home then they were even in Germany. The smart people didn't go home, like my father and mother. They decided that they were going to immigrate so they signed up for Australia. Their second choice was America, they didn't get their first choice. So we ended up here. And they looked for sponsors. My father found somebody who was remotely related to him here in the Binghamton area. Mrs. Nester, and she sponsored us, you had to have a sponsor. Somebody had to sign for you. And in those days your sponsor was responsible for everything! If you went to the hospital they had to pay. It wasn't like it is now. That's what it's all about immigration they came and they had nothing. We came with a box it was about this tall, that's all we had. We started from zero, we lived in Binghamton on Clinton Street. For the first three or four months my father went to work for Dellapenna Brothers on the streets with a jackhammer, he weighed 100 pounds, the jackhammer weighed 90 pounds. And all he could talk about is going back to Germany! He was actually very successful in Germany. He worked the black market? GS: Doing what? PS: He worked cigarettes and whiskey. And he also played cards. He traveled to Italy to France and he played a three cards games. You had two aces, or either a king or queen. And ugh he would show you-- You're supposed to play the queen of course. And the way he played, he would either flip the card from the top or sometimes the bottom. It was really tough to figure out where it is. He was very good at it. He made a lot of money doing it. GS: Really? PS: Yeah! I mean I don't know, but people who knew who always tell me, he was one of the richest men they knew there. He would have suitcases of money --yeah -- he did really well. That's probably why he wanted to go back to Germany because he came here with nothing. He was pretty industry. When the guys used to play cards. He didn't play he sold them cigarettes and booze. Not that bad eh? GS: What did your mom do in America? PS: When she came here? GS: Yes. PS: When she first came here she was just a house wife/mom. For the first four five years. See, I was about 10--so yeah about 4 years. She went to go work at EJ's, that's what everyone did. My father worked for Dellapenna Brothers for only about a year and a half, then he went to work at the shoe factory they both worked there. GS: Do you have any siblings? PS: Yeah. I have a brother and a sister. They were both born here. GS: So are you the oldest? PS: I am the oldest. Interesting story talking about-- I went to Poland with my father in 1969 to meet my grandparents. On my mother's side we could never trace down because she had a name like Smith it was a common name. And she didn't want to find her father. One of her brothers died in the war. The other brother lived and she tried to find him. I did find him but I never found any reference to any other family member. I never met anyone from my mother's side. My father's side I met his whole family. And she met my grandfather and my grandmother. Like I said in 1969, and during the time it was communism! The first thing you do when you come here, is you declare your citizenship no matter if you came from the city, you had to go through the court, the police station and register you were there. They would quiz you on where you from? Or whatever. I was born in Germany. My papers said I was a German citizen. My father was born, it said, in Ukraine. Because at the time he was born it was Ukraine. My grandfather changed to Polish. So we went there and they were like "ok you are German he's Polish, and he's from Ukraine, wait a minute, you can't be a family?" It was very funny, trying to explain. Pretty simple when you think about it. But yeah he was like "You can't be related?" But actually my father looks like my grandfather, and I look like my father, so you could see the resemblance. GS: It would be bad if you guys didn't resemble! PS: Well like I said my father was very industrial. He did very well here too. But my grandfather. He served in 3 different armies. He served in the Ukrainian army, the Polish army, and the Italian army. My grandfather was a womanizer. He would wake up, go make a child, then go back to the war. He did. There are a lot of Solecky’s out there that I don't even know about. I hear stories, he was a "Romeo" I guess. IW: How'd he end up in the Italian army? PS: He volunteered! He thought it would be better than the Polish or Ukrainian army. And it was. For him anyway. He got a horse. So yea. He just didn't want to stay home. So, my father had to work the fields from early age from 12 years old. And he never forgave his father for that. IW: So you mentioned, your father talking about missing Germany, do he ever talk about missing the Ukraine or Poland? PS: No because they had a very hard life. Harder life than they had in Germany. My mother had a hard life. My grandmother died when my mother was only 7 years old. And the father remarried and had three more children. But the other woman didn't like the children from the first marriage. That's pretty common. There's a story. In fact I didn't know until about 6 months before my mother died, that she was pretty sick for a couple of years--.she died of congestive heart failure. And I visited my god mother, the first cousin to my mother, and also another cousin from Australia that came here and they talk, reminisce on what happened when they were in Ukraine. And I didn't realize, it was so bad, my mother was abused, one time apparently, she came home, and she had a beautiful voice, she was a really good dancer, really good vocalist, and I guess she was dancing, and her father looked at her and said "You've been with boys?" and she said " No no" but her step mother said " Yea! She was with boys!" He beat her to a pulp. So bad, her grandmother came, picked her up, and nursed her for several months. He really beat her. No wonder why she ran away! That's why she always says it can't be worse than what she had there [In Ukraine]. A lot of people that talk about people the hunger in Ukraine. They were so hungry. People use to bake their own children. You know babies. GS: Are you serious? PS: Yes I am serious! They would bake them and eat their own children! The starvation! Very few people know about the starvation in the Ukraine in the 40s. Because it's not very publicized. 8 or 9 million people died of starvation. Stalin decided he was going to starve out Ukraine, because he was taking over all the farms in the Ukraine. And the Ukraine was the red basket of Europe. They grew the wheat. And they actually would take this wheat and transport this wheat but not give any to the Ukraine people, though they were starving. Because he wanted them to become Russian. And that's when he decided, since he couldn't starve them to death, then what he said he is going to do is assimilate them into the Russian thing by relocating a lot of Russian people into the Ukraine, which can still be seen now. Eastern part of the Ukraine, a lot of Russians, and the Western are people who are 100% Ukraine. But it didn't work. Most are still Ukrainian. Starving didn't work and trying to force to be Russian didn't work. Ukrainians are pretty resilient. Stubborn! GS: When you got to America, did you go to school? PS: Oh yeah. When I got here I was five years old. I went to kindergarten. I was the first in my family to learn any English. My sister, was born soon after. My mother was pregnant on the way over. GS: How did you guys get here? A boat or--? PS: A boat. Like I told you, he was waiting to go to Australia. That's what his first choice was. But when this came, he just jumped on it, the United States. He came directly from New York City, through Ellis Island. Our names are there. GS: I heard the Ellis Island was awful-- PS: Well for them, they were looking for a new life. Everything was exciting to them believe it or not. GS: The American dream? PS: Yeah, the American dream. You're right. GS: Do you believe that was real/true, The American Dream? PS: Yeah, even the people who were already here. The perception was, back in 1969, my father in Poland, the perception in the communist countries, like Ukraine was if you lived in the United States, money grew up trees. Most people actually talked about money growing on trees because what most people did, would send money home, like the Mexicans now. They were able to have stuff, they weren't able to have. If people didn't have relatives in the states, they couldn't have this opportunity. Relatives in the states would send a lot of money back. GS: Just curious, you are wearing a Cornell hat, did you go there? PS: Yeah, for two hours! About 2 months ago, me and my friends from Montreal went to visit. No, I went to Broome College, then got my master's degree in Electrical engineering. Yeah--.but when I came here, we were DPs', they still called us DPs'. I was a DP till 9th grade, people still called us DPs', GS: Was that derogatory or mean to say to someone? PS: It's a displaced person, yeah. It's like someone from Vietnam coming to the States now. They didn't want us here because remember we came from Germany and they thought we were Nazi Germans. They were very nasty to us because the first wave of immigrants, in the 20s and 30s, they already established themselves. And it was hard to establish yourself. Now the second wave of immigrants in the 50s. During that, there were a lot of jobs, they didn't like it but there were a lot of jobs. And what they spent twenty years trying to get, we got in about five years. They were very jealous of that. And now the second generation, which is me, sometimes get very jealous of people coming over now because when they came over they had absolutely nothing. There was no welfare, there was no help. Nobody gave you a penny. But now look what happens. Nobody told you to go to school. So it's a little bit different. It's better the way it is now. But as I said before, I was the first to learn English and it was very hard getting a place to live, an apartment, because all the soldiers were coming back, and they got first priority. And we were DPs' so we were really frowned upon. My father would send me, even though I was only five years old, because I knew some English, to try to get an apartment, because once they saw you were a DP or didn't speak English that was it. So he sent me, I tried negotiating at five years old to get an apartment! It was funny. GS: Were you successful? PS: Yeah actually, we got an apartment. I was basically your interrupter. Because when my father learned English he learned to read and write. My father went through 4th grade. My mother only went through 2nd grade. My mother never learned to read or write in Ukrainian or English. My father was able to speak English, Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Czech, Italian, French and of course German. He spoke all those languages. So when we came over, he was able to speak to the Italians, he was able to communicate with them, because he traveled a lot for his job in the black market. He worked for EJ's for about 12 years, my mother worked her whole life there. But then he decided that he wanted to try something different. He became a carpenter. He built a bunch of houses right here in the city. In fact, the house I grew up in, is only about 200 hundred yards that way [points outside the window]. The church wasn't here then, when we lived there. My sister still lives in the original house there. IW: So what kind of work was the Dellapenna Brothers? PS: Oh they did pavements. They broke up concrete. They paved stuff. He ended up with a jackhammer which is probably the worst thing there is. IW: Was there ever a time your dad considered going back to hustling cards and such? PS: Every day of his life, he wanted to go back for the next 45 years. IW: Would he consider doing it in the United States? PS: No no, he could not do that here. Here everything is done above board! In Germany at the time everything was done under the table. So many countries in Europe had so much fraud that was going on. Everything was done under the table. Everything. The big business was done under the table. It's just the way it was. When they come over now, the new immigrants, they are all educated but they come from a place where they had to negotiate for everything under the table. But here you could walk in the store, and anyone could buy a loaf of bread! You just have to have the money. Over there you would have to stand in line for two three four hours to get a loaf of bread. And it was like "OMG, I achieved something today I got a loaf of bread!" In the Ukraine it's still pretty bad but that's just the way it is. So when he came here, no he could not do the black market because everything was above board. He had to have a job. But he just couldn't do it. He was too small for the jackhammer. When you first came in, they always put you with the jackhammer because it was the worst job. But he did that for a while. Next, he worked at EJ's and then he worked with the Power House. EJ had over 30,000 employees. They actually generated their own power. They had what they called the Power House. They generated their own electricity. That's what he did. It was coal, he would shovel coal. He worked three jobs at the time with working with EJ's. He worked at EJ's, he sold cars for a small little used car dealership. Well actually, he mostly repaired the cars but he was in the business of that. He also started doing the building business. So he had three jobs for a long time. He slept three, four hours a night. That's all he slept. And my mother did too. And so do I. I only sleep three, four hours a day, I don't know why but it's just the way it is. GS: I need a solid eight hours of sleep! PS: Yeah, I don't know why. But yeah he was successful. He built three, four house around here. Some in Endicott. These four houses right in the neighborhood here that the built. He was pretty successful at it. At the time you could make money off of it. It's a little harder now. GS: What was the educational system like in the Ukraine, and what are the similarities and differences between the US's and Ukraine's educational systems? PS: Well they didn't really teach you anything because you didn't have access to outside information. It was all run by the government. So even if you got an education, it meant nothing when you came over here because they didn't really teach you anything. They didn't tell you what things were like, like Vietnam. When they came over here, they had a totally different perception of how things were here. Ukraine's still coming over, still ask "why are you paying taxes?" And I say "They provide me services, the police, the fire department, you know!" and they say "Well we don't pay taxes, why would we want to pay taxes?!" It's a whole different perception, you know what I mean. You steal as much as you can. It's interesting to see them come over. But they are definitely paying their taxes now. GS: Do you think your parents raised you more in an American way or Ukrainian way? PS: My father was a very proud American. He was one of the few people I know who said he pays his taxes, proudly. He says "I pay for my privilege to be here in the United States." He was a very proud American but they still taught me how to speak, read, and write Ukrainian. My children do and my grandchildren do. My son married a Ukrainian. She doesn't speak Ukrainian but she goes right here to the same church. My daughter married a Ukrainian too. And my son, taught his son Ukrainian, but he adopted a son from Siberia, just four years ago. They couldn't have any children so they adopted one. And my daughter has two children. They speak perfect Ukrainian and English. I have a funny story. My daughter, and I did not approve of this, decided to speak only Ukrainian till they went to school, so they didn't know any English when they were going to kindergarten. So they sent their child to a catholic school and the school had an interview with the kids and they brought him in, and they were talking and talking, and afterwards, he comes downstairs to his mother, and goes "I don't know what they were talking about, I think they were Polish?!" It was English! He didn't know because he never heard English. They only spoke Ukrainian. But like I said my mother and father were very proud to be Americans. They were Americans first. That's why I think is the big difference between immigrants who come now. Before, immigrants didn't want to be Polish or Ukrainian. They wanted to be American. They didn't want to give up their culture but this is where they wanted to live. They wanted to know the culture. They wanted to be American. But today, immigrants who come, don't want to be American. They want to have their own Spanish communities or Muslim communities. That's the difference between immigrants who came during the Second World War and immigrants who come now. They do not come here to assimilate. Unfortunately, that's what part of the problem is. GS: Do you remember what your first neighborhood was like? PS: Yeah, today it's the ghetto. Basically a ghetto today, or whatever you want to call it. I guess it's not really truly a ghetto, its people with very low income and are on welfare are living there, but the family that moved into Clinton Street, which used to be a main drag there, it was a booming town. It was mostly immigrants that came here, and immigrants what they did, it was not just my father they all everybody knew it was basically same they took care of themselves. They moved to, my father moved to an apartment; they actually, basically cleaned everything out, painted, everything was very nice, except the only problem we had cockroach. And my father was always smarter than the rest of the guys. He would figure out, he went and got all the stuff to get rid of cockroaches and guess where they went? To my neighbor upstairs, my best friend. So I tell you how bad that was, I remember opening the door one time I was upstairs and I walked into the bathroom; the bathroom was very small and it was covered, the walls, ceilings, the bath, everything! Everything was cockroaches. And soon I opened the door because they started running around and then if it wasn't the cockroaches it was the rats. We had a lot of rats. Yeah, one time I had one on my chest I woke up and this rat was sitting on my chest. It was a rat it wasn't a mouse. Yeah, they get bigger and everything. But we get rid of that too. IW: So you've been living here for most of your life, how have you seen the community evolve over the years that you have been here? PS: This general community? IW: Yeah, this general community and maybe this whole town/ city of Binghamton as a whole. PS: Well, we came here everything was booming and up until probably I would say twenty years ago. Maybe I'm starting to -- EJ's closed before then, and then IBM, we still had IBM, we had Linux, we had GE, and there was --- it was a very neighborhood place. People knew -- neighbors knew neighbors. Now I don't see my neighbors because they pull their car in a garage and that's it. In fact when they moved up to our neighborhood, it's not a ritzy neighborhood, it's what you'd call upper middle-class neighborhood. I moved there, and you know, I'm an outdoors person and I park my cars outside. I have two garages but Summer I don't keep them in the garage, I leave them outside. They come in they open the garage pull in and you never see them. So, during the first two months I had people stop and tell me, did you take a look at the street all the way up. I say, "yeah, what" -- do you see a car in the road or in the driveway? -- "I say no", "then what the hell are you doing? Put them in a garage?" I said this was a free country, my father did that "now why are you washing your cars outside?" "Because it's my house" I -- GS: What's wrong with washing your car outside? PS: Pardon me? GS: What's wrong with washing your car outside? PS: Because these people don't wash their cars. Most of the people living in the neighborhood, not any more now, they were all high-level managers, they were making big money. IW: What was that? PS: They were working for IBM; they were high level management. In fact the guy who lived two houses across the street from me was a lab director. And he didn't interact with anyone -- in a way I can't blame him -- because if you're well -- it's like a politician, they have no private life, everything is public. And they, even the head of the lab managers they go want to go --- someone going to put the blame on them -- so that's why they shy away, so that's why it kind of started that way, but now they're all gone because there is no real IBM here anymore, there's no anything here anymore. But eh, the people are still the same. I have my next-door neighbor, been there for twelve years, I've seen him about three times. GS: Ha ha, I heard that's typical of our, I don't know of our generation? But just like people used to know their neighbors very well. PS: Absolutely, when we first came up here we knew everybody who was in our neighborhood and it's only, and now it's getting worse because everyone's got one of those (Indicates Smartphone) and I do too. GS: iPhone? PS: Yeah, this is how we communicate now, we don't have to see somebody. Or I can see him GS: Facetime? And it's helpful PS: Yeah sure heh, yeah GS: Going back you said you graduated from Broome--? PS: Yeah yeah, I graduated here from (illegible) City High School, and then I went to Broome tech for Engineering Science, from there I went to RIT and got my electrical engineer. Then I was out of school for 18 years and went back for a Master's Degree. IW: At RIT? PS: No, at University of Vermont IW: Oh, my sister goes there. PS: That was a great place. GS: So, after college what was your first job? PS: Here at IBM, I had actually when I was at RIT I had graduated in 1969, I was in the co-op program so even though I graduated in June I had 1 semester to go because I had the summer semester. So like 80% of the class including myself accepted a job at Kodak in Rochester, but my fiancée decided last minute she didn't want to live in Rochester so two weeks before I finished my schooling I had to go for a job and when I looked to go for a job, 1 week later I said I had already accepted a job at Kodak but so did 80% of the class. Well, in 1969 was the first time Kodak laid off 500 people, engineers, guess who went first? The new people! I wouldn't have been working there anyway! GS: You got lucky! PS: So I came here in 69, there weren't that many jobs. It was one of the down years. They only had two jobs for engineering. In that time they employed 15,000 people here and there and they only two jobs for engineering. It wasn't engineering it wasn't electrical engineering which is what I'd want. They had two jobs in programming and since I was desperate I was getting married in a week after I finished school. I hated programming, absolutely hated it, but it ended up being what I was doing, well the manager who interviewed me says, "You know we need programming" I said, "Yeah, I don't like it." I was a prat. He says, "Well that's good, you'll how to do it the right way" and he did. He thought I was ambitious and in six months I liked it a lot. And I did very well from there, I moved up the ladder and in the end I actually had the business office reporting to the manager here at IBM and I worked for division presidents and vice presidents and actually uh a lot of high-level people. And the job I had the time was actually, I had control, well not control, I was the guy who made decisions. We had at that time factories worldwide that made boards, we made boards, the kind of boards that you put components on, and we made the boards here that was my business that was what I was involved in. And one time we had 8 factories around the world, actually it was ten, and had Japan, Italy, Scotland, England, Toronto, Sao. Paulo in Brazil and also in Australia and I had responsibility in that time, I was the one who recommended -- we all made panels worldwide and what we tried to do was make sure that if one plant couldn't make the supply then another plant could pick it up it may sound simple on the surface but it is extremely complicated when you're making boards okay because you have different equipment and anyways it was my responsibility to make sure that I spread the load in terms of who builds what and also what cap co they will have and I had the pleasure of every 3 months having the plant managers have a meeting and they all hated each other because that's the way it is; everybody wants to run their plant there the way they want, they don't want anyone to tell them what to do. GS: All ten in one room? PS: Yeah, sometimes we had plant managers that didn't want to sit next to each other, and I had to spend three, four days with them talking about the problems they had, the things we had to do and everything. So we spent three days arguing, and the 4th day I'd break down the action plan that they were never going to do, and then I had to follow up on it. But that's the way it was. It's true that in any industry you're in, you get more than two people, you've already got too many beings. That's the way it is. GS: You said before that you got married straight out of college? PS: Yeah, I got engaged and I got married two weeks out of college. GS: Was that a normal thing? PS: At that time yeah, a lot of guys in my class were getting married before they graduated, most people were married by the time they were 25. IW: So how old were you when you got married? PS: 23, my wife was only what? She had just turned 20, and my wife was from Poland, but she was Ukrainian. Unfortunately, she passed away 10 years ago but she was Ukrainian and I met her through a next-door neighbor at the house over here because it was her uncle and he sponsored him to come from Poland, they lived in the same, believe it or not, it's funny because her parents and my father's parents lived two houses apart in south eastern Poland. They used to be Poland/Ukraine and after the war they decided they wanted to move people around, they moved my wife's family from where they were in Southeast all the way to Germany in the West Side. They relocated a lot of people because what is happening is when the Germans came in they took over most of everything, you see on television with Jewish people, they came in and took everything from them, it was really true and there were a lot of Jewish people in Ukraine and also in Poland and those people lost it all, and after the war they got that back but they didn't give that back to the Jewish people, her parents ended up in a house that used to be Jewish. And near the German border, and she was 16 when she came over, and I met her fell in love and married her. GS: When did you have your first kiss? PS: Uhm, 1970 GS: Oh, and also you graduated in college in 1969 and you also took a trip with your dad in 1969? PS: Yeah, just before my wedding, actually took time off from school. He wouldn't go alone. I wasn't that interested in going and when I went there it wasn't really a great time, because I used to smoke then and every time I reached into my pocket everyone got up because they thought I was throwing money at them, so that's the gut truth. Because they thought, money grew on trees and at that time when we used to go it was not true of us, anybody went back, even sometimes today, they expect you to bring you a lot of gifts and money that what the expectation was and while you were there you paid for everything for them, for the whole family we had a big reunion one night before we left for home, and there must have 70, 80 people, we paid for everything? IW: Was this because of the idea that they thought that like Americans had a lot of money that grows on trees? PS: Yes absolutely, there was women, the men would take, where we were in Poland where my grandfather lived, we were right near where they made crystal, you know crystal? And they made all kinds of bowls and that kind of stuff sugar bowls and all that. We wanted to bring crystal back because it's very good crystal, we didn't want perfect stuff because that's really expensive, but they have stuffed that a little bit chipped, but you can't see it, we went to the factory and that were we bought up and they found out we were interested in it so all the men rushed, they were stealing their wives sugar bowls and bringing it to my grandfather's house. And it was nice enough we bought it we bought a lot of stuff, then the woman started coming in all upset, and we gave them all back GS: Well that's nice of you at least. PS: Well it wasn't really nice what the husbands did. IW: Wait, so you bought all these sugar bowls and you gave it away. PS: We gave it back to these people, because she came and say that's mine GS: Did you get your money back? PS: No! GS: What? PS: No, it wasn't fair what they did but it wasn't expensive, we were only talking four, five dollars. Okay, the big bowls maybe 50, 60 dollars and they are probably worth four, five hundred dollars here. The stuff we brought was small stuff. We said we'll take it. IW: Four or five dollars might have been more to them than it is to you here, inflation exchange rates PS: Oh at that time 4, 5 dollars was a lot of money. You were getting 150 Zloty to every dollar and that was their dollar, the Zloty. So when we had the get together it cost us 150 bucks, it was an incredible night, we had a band and everything. Money went a long way there. And that the other reason they thought we were so rich, because they thought that our dollar went as far as our dollar in their country, and it didn't! Not even close ha ha! GS: So your expectations for America or I guess your parents’ expectations, were they met? PS: Yeah, absolutely, It's the greatest country in the world, I to me I carry the same pride that my father did. IW: So you have a German Citizenship, right, you still have it? PS: No no I was a German citizen but when I became a US citizen I uh don't have the uh. IW: You didn't have a dual citizenship? PS: I could if I wanted to apply for it, I don't need it, what do I need it for. IW: German citizenship, it's the best passport to have in the world for traveling. PS: I traveled all around the world with American passport it was okay. I did a lot of traveling for my company so I did a lot of traveling. GS: You said your father instilled like other things in you? PS: Yeah, a couple of things, for one thing honesty, because uh, he worked in business and he got stiffed quite a few times because he was building and they had to pay him and they wouldn't pay him and he had to wait wait wait and try to get the money back and there were some times with deals and somebody promised one thing and it didn't work out and he always told me one thing in business " don't ever lie but don't always tell the truth" You don't have to tell them everything he said, but don't lie. Soon as you lie, the very first time you are never going to trust anybody because you think they will do the same thing if you think about it. The other thing is that this country we came to here he says you have to vote and pay taxes and have to respect his country because it is the greatest place in the world and he also said education, I worked with him, he was a builder and worked with him in the summers, I was twelve years when I started it and I hated it. He says this is why you are working with me, to go to school and get a better job, which is what I did. GS: Exactly, so there were no child labor laws yet or were there? PS: Pardon me? GS: So you were working at 12 years old, there were no child-- PS: Oh there were child laws but nothing was enforced, now everything, they try to enforce everything, in today's world it doesn't make a difference whatever country, we have more ways in capacity and force! It's true there's a law for everything. But. they paid me next to nothing, because there were only three of us working together at that time and most of the time I was looking for the tools because that what carpenters do, they could not find their tools because they leave it in one room, when they are working and go to another room and cannot find it again, my life was spent finding their tools, the other half building bricks I had to mix the mortar, and deliver the bricks on the scaffolding to continue the building. IW: So your father was coming from a country where you couldn't really be politically active, so how did he react to being in a whole new country where he is free to vote, free to-- PS: It took him a long to be comfortable with it because especially in Ukraine, it wasn't as bad remember Poland was a satellite country, Ukraine was directly under Russian rule. Polish, some people actually owned stuff, okay, in Ukraine there wasn't anybody who owned anything. They were used to a totally different life, and in fact, okay, in the communist countries like Ukraine people actually spited each other. What you read about and heard about is absolutely true. A neighbor would say "hey this guy is not a communist because he is communicating with his sister in the United States and is saying bad things about us". So, they turn him in -- disappear. GS: Oh my god! PS: Yeah in fact when my mother tried to establish with her brother relationship, the one that was alive, I tried, and he'd tell us I'm part of communist party please do not communicate with me anymore because I'll get in trouble. And so we never communicated with him and he died. Yeah that's the way it was in Ukraine, in Poland it was a little better, so when he came here voting was very foreign to him, if you got to vote, anything like a vote it was only one candidate, one party one candidate. So, they were a little confused first when they came here. But, I guess that was because he was so confused about voter too because he says the first time in his life he had the chance to choose but if, whether it did any good or not was not important, the important part was that you could cast a vote for who though would be most appropriate leader, in fact, a lot of them came over there. The funny part is, my wife's mother, my bushka -- the last bushka we had, she was a real -- a real character. She called me up one time, after the election, it was two days after the election. You know what? "They called me from the voting place" she says and they asked me to come down. I said oh they did? Why? She says "they needed one more vote for Bush to win, and they picked me, so I went down and voted Bush president. She really believed it! Yeah, she was exercising the right to vote and guess what? She made a big difference. It's a funny story. It's true she really believed it. I never told her it wasn't true. GS: I just have random question; do you have any artifacts from your family or native country that hold any meaning to you? PS: Well actually, the only -- well I got one thing from my father here -- this anchor (indicates anchor necklace) see this uh GS: Anchor? That's from your father? PS: That's all he left me and he left me this and this my wife bought for me this cross, and she's gone and this my mother bought for me so I carry this wherever I go. But the only things they had were wedding rings, the wedding rings were metal, they didn't really leave me anything you can called "passed down" or anything. There was nothing of value. GS: What did you bring? Do you remember anything specific that you brought in that box from Ukraine to America? PS: Oh, you mean Germany to America? The only thing I remember is the box my father brought because we used it as a table, I don't really remember much of what was in there because it was just clothes basically, that all we brought. There wasn't any German money in there because after the war, the money that he made, that made him so rich, was worth nothing after the war. He said that after the war you would have to take a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread. GS: Oh yeah I've seen pictures of that. IW: It's called hyperinflation. PS: And it was true. It got that bad because it got totally devalued and was worth nothing. IW: The German mark was it? PS: Yeah, the German mark. GS: Do you remember feeling poor? PS: Huh? GS: When you were a kid do you remember feeling like you had less? Or like were you happy? PS: The people I interacted with --- it felt normal -- everything was normal. In fact, those people I work with most of them I work known my whole life. GS: That's amazing! PS: In fact tomorrow, I started -- well 17 years ago I started a little group -- believe it or not a lot of us lived here we all got education all the people went to the church school they all went and we worked and got jobs most of us moved away for at least a portion of our lives, a lot of us came back. Right back to Binghamton. We have been fishing together for 35 years. My best friends are right down stairs. GS: That you have known your whole life? PS: Yeah, I and I have a little group that we get together tomorrow, right underneath this room. It used to be our club -- a club we used to run -- we had alcohol and stuff but we closed that a long time ago. There were 16 of us and we had known each other since we were 5 years old, every one of us, and we all came back. We had all lived sometime in a different city and now we are all back and it's amazing. You know, we meet once a month, we have a meal together, we bullshit, we play cards, and then we drink and enjoy the company immensely. And the interesting part is it is almost impossible for somebody not to show up. They enjoy it so much, including myself, that we make sure that we come. I get almost 100% attendance. Take care of the food -- I take care of the food-- but I have other people do stuff. We have our own logo. We call ourselves UKEBUMS. GS: UKEBUMS? IW: What does that mean? PS: UKE for Ukraine, BUMS for -- there is another group that my best friend in Montreal runs called just BUMS. They are also Ukrainian. BUMS stands for benevolent union of master sportsman, so Ukrainian benevolent union of master sportsmen. It started out fishing but we have guys what our golfers now -- half of them are fishers but then we accepted other people too so there are golfers and a few people who are big into hockey and that kind of stuff but it's sportsmen, kind of cool BUMS. IW: It seems like the church is like the center of social life in this community. The Church was their whole social life, when we were growing up. We were in walking distance, the church was in Binghamton - it was in walking distance and I went to Ukrainian school religion class and --- something we were there all the time -- church -- it was our social network and that how I got to know all these people, we did very well, we all hung together and now were all back together again. IW: It must be a very strong connection if after all those years people still come back to their hometown. PS: Yeah a lot of people come to visit, Christmas and Easter, church is full, people come back. GS: So Binghamton is like your home. PS: It's a home yeah. We grew up. I think I take a lot of pride helping out the church -- to be honest with you -- they're the one who kind of molded me into who I am. My parents had a lot to do with it but the church probably had more to do with it because I spent more of my time there than with my parents. How much time do you spend with you parents anyways? When you're smaller you have no one else to care for you then you're totally dependent. After that-- you know -- so -- these people I spent more time with them than my parents. GS: That's so true for me too. PS: They are lovely people, they all come from the same kind of --- we all have the same kind of principles -- we all love this country we are all very proud Americans. And we are proud of our heritage too. But we are American Ukrainian, not Ukrainian American. GS: I like that. PS: That's what we are. GS: Thank you so much! That's perfect. IW: Right on the hour mark, wow! Thank you! PS: It's been that long, oh my gosh ha ha. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Peter Solecky Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Solecky, Peter ; Samaniego, Gabrielle ; Wolf, Isaac Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Peter Solecky was born in 1946 in Munich, Germany. His mother, father, and two younger siblings came to America in 1951. They traveled through Ellis Island (their signatures are still there to this day) and eventually settled in Binghamton, New York. Solecky attended Rochester Institute of Technology and graduated with a bachelor’s degree in engineering science in 1969. He later returned to school for his master’s degree in Electrical Engineering at the University of Vermont. He lives in Binghamton, NY with his wife and two children. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Peter Solecky.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-10 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:11 Subject The topic of the resource Solecky, Peter.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d030771d3a56d74cab404a1736dcd8fe.jpg dd1fc508dd35c0e0dcbb841942d7ed8c https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/06e53e7fea887bb9d6469337f8991acd.mp3 14372d253dead6c1740f2e9eb2744803 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2009-12-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Philip Caputo Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Philip Caputo is a Chicago born journalist and novelist. Caputo attended Loyola and Purdue Universities and served in the U.S Marine Corps for three years. He has written 16 books throughout his life and was nominated for the National Book Award for Horn of Africa. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:6531,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Philip Caputo is a Chicago born journalist and novelist. Caputo attended Loyola and Purdue Universities and served in the U.S Marine Corps for three years. He has written 16 books throughout his life and was nominated for the National Book Award for the <em>Horn of Africa</em>. </span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Vietnam War; Anti-War Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Drug culture; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Baby boom generation; Kent State; Walter Cronkite.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14281427}}">Vietnam War; Anti-War Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Drug culture; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Baby boom generation; Kent State; Walter Cronkite.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 140:17 Subject LCSH Journalists; Authors; Marines; Caputo, Philip--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Phil Caputo Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 12 December 2012 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:02): ... Going here. When you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? PC (00:00:09): The first thing that comes to mind. Well, okay. I was not ready for that one for some reason. Well, the war does to me. I cannot think of a specific time or scene in the war, but that is what I think of. I mean, I always revert with that era back to Vietnam, the war. SM (00:00:50): When- PC (00:00:51): And then probably the other thing, of course, it sticks in my mind now I think of it, let us say there is two first things. One is just the war in general, and then more specifically was the Democratic convention riots in (19)68 in Chicago, which I happened to cover part of that. SM (00:01:12): Oh, wow. PC (00:01:13): ... As a Cub reporter, so that is probably why it sticks in my mind. SM (00:01:18): Well, since you mentioned that, what really happened at that convention in (19)68? Who was responsible or was it both of the police being overly brutal or a lot of irresponsible young people creating habits? PC (00:01:35): Oh, it was absolutely both. It was like a bull fight between the matador and the bull. You cannot have one without the other. And now you can argue as to who was the matador and who was the bull. But there was kind of dynamic operating there where, I cannot say all the protestors because there were thousands of them, but many of them. And particularly I think some of the more radical leaders, wanted to provoke a violent police response and a lot of the cops wanted to respond violently so they in effect provoked each other. SM (00:02:33): When you think about that experience, what did you think about America at that time? Because you insert in Vietnam, I think in (19)65 and (19)66, came back home. Then as we get into the (19)67, (19)68 period, things kind of rev up in the United States in terms of anti-war. But you probably had a lot of different feelings as a person who served, came back, and then was back as a reporter. Just your thoughts on just being in that experience and your thoughts on America at that time. PC (00:03:10): Well, I remember distinctly, and it started well before actually (19)67 or (19)68 when I got back from Vietnam in the summer of (19)66 and I got home right after some of the Watts riots in Los Angeles, the race riots. And then similar riots occurred in (19)66, I think also in Chicago, which was where I was from. And I remember when I flew home reading, seeing these headlines in the paper about these really extensive race riots, for lack of a better term, I guess, and feeling really uneasy. And that increased his time went on. So that by (19)68, I had the feeling that America was going to fragment into something like a new civil war. And I really felt that the society was beginning to pull itself into pieces. And a lot of it too was reflected in a lot of the pop music of the day, that Creedence Clearwater song, Bad Moon Rising, and oh, I think it was, I cannot remember. I do not think he wrote it then, but it certainly embodied some of the spirit, like Fortunate Son and some of those tunes, that had this almost doom haunted quality about them. I really felt like we were going to be lucky to hang together as a society and as a country. SM (00:05:27): When you look at that Boomer generation, which is that young generation that was born between (19)46 and (19)64, what are some of the qualities that you admired in the young generation at that time and the qualities you are least admired? PC (00:05:45): Well, I can sort of speak as an almost outsider. I think I told you in the email is I am not a Boomer. SM (00:05:54): I want to mention that over half the people we have interviewed are not Boomers but they lived during the time. PC (00:05:59): Yeah. I am four years shy of it. SM (00:06:01): Right. PC (00:06:05): Well, I think the quality that I admired most was, again, we have to qualify these things. We are talking about a segment of that particular generational cohort, but a significant segment both in terms of its numbers and of its educational level or its leadership level would be a better way to put it. And what I admired was its commitment to improving the world, of wanting to make a better world. It was real. And I think there was definitely a very passionate feeling throughout that generation toward that end. And this is what I least admired about it, is that it was a generation that had never really known hardship. It was probably one of the very first truly privileged generations in America. And so consequently, whenever what it wanted and what its goals were and so forth, were frustrated. I think it tended to act immaturely, almost, I do not know. There were sometimes some of those war anti-war protests that I covered as a reporter almost struck me as these vast mass temper tantrums. And unfortunately, a lot of its political commitment got co-opted, even commercialized and became very self-indulgent. SM (00:08:20): How do you respond to this feeling that many felt that they were the most unique generation in American history? Because I can remember being on college campus at that time and this feeling of community and togetherness, that we are a generation that is going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, end war. We are going to do things that no other generation has done, bring peace to the world. This feeling of uniqueness that they had, and I think some Boomers still have it as they approach 60 years of age. The oldest Boomers now are approaching early retirement [inaudible] social security, so, but some still believe that. So, what are your thoughts on their feeling unique? PC (00:09:05): Well, I do not know about unique. There was a generation in the thirties that was certainly is politically committed as the generation of the (19)60s, maybe committed to some different ends to improving a lot of the common man to things like the Labor Movement and so forth. And they were very committed and they wanted to change the world in the way things had been done for decades, if not centuries. But I would say that the (19)60s generation was if not unique, certainly highly unusual. And they did. As I said, one of the things I admired is they wanted to end all of these ills of, like you said, end the war, poverty, end homophobia, end the exploitation of the environment and so forth, end sexism. By all those movements, the environmental movement, feminist movement, and the civil rights movement, although they certainly did not begin during the (19)60s, that the whole revolutionary impulse advanced those causes. And interestingly, just as something aside is that the fury generated by the war, the anti-war movement, I think was the fire and the boiler. I have a feeling that had there been no Vietnam War and no anti-war movement, all of those movements I just talked about, the civil rights, the feminist’s movement, and the environmental movement, and probably, well, those three [inaudible], I think they would have proceeded at a slower pace and probably at a more peaceful pace. SM (00:11:30): It is interesting because that was my next question. Because oftentimes all these movements developed when they were young, and people have different feelings of these movements as they have gotten older and how effective they are compared to what they were then. One of the things that is interesting is many of these movements, if you see a protest, many of these same groups that were unique in their own way, were all together at the protests. You have to include the Native American movement, the Ang group, certainly the Chicano movement, and the gay and lesbian movement along with civil rights, anti-war, the women's movement and the environmental movement. And I even believe the disability movement was starting then so that these were all kind of connected. PC (00:12:16): Yeah, they were. They all drew energy, I think. They were cables leading to the same generator, and I think they were all, again, fueled by the same impulse which was to change the world for the better. SM (00:12:38): This is a question I have asked everyone. When you hear people like Newt Gingrich and George Will and other political pundits criticize the (19)60s generation or the era of the (19)60s and (19)70s as the time that America really started going backward, the breakdown of American society. There will always be commentaries where the divorce rate began then, lack of commitment and in terms of family, victim mentality was really started around then, the drug culture, the breakup of the American family, you name it. And the Democratic party paid a heavy price in (19)72, and George McGovern lost. And I can remember Barney Frank wrote a book speaking frankly saying the Democratic party better disassociate itself from that left group that was anti-war or that party will be destroyed. Just your thoughts on these criticisms that all the problems in American society are based on that period. PC (00:13:50): Put it this way, it is a half-truth. In other words, what they are saying is true insofar as it goes, but what they are not saying makes it somewhat of a falsification. I am convinced that a lot of the good things, at least to my mind good things, that have happened in America since then would not have happened had it not been for, again, the call it that revolutionary highly idealistic spirit. The problem is that I think in any social movement... Well, let me back up a second. It is not unlike what a lot of economic conservatives, when they talk about capitalism, they talk about capitalism's creative destruction, if you are familiar with that term. That is kind of what happened in the (19)60s. There is no doubt that, again, the self-indulgent face of that generation is largely responsible for the prevalence of drug use in America. The idea that society had to be remade from the bottom up has been responsible for the breakup of the American family or partly responsible, again, the self-indulgence for the higher divorce rate, but only in part. So, in other words, a lot of things that a George will or a Newt Gingrich say, again, are true insofar as they go, but they leave out the other side of the argument. SM (00:16:10): What were the watershed moment when the (19)60s began and when the (19)60s ended? PC (00:16:20): Well, I have actually talked about this in some speeches I have given. And to my own mind, I certainly would not speak as some kind of historian who is giving you something chiseled in stone. To my own mind. The (19)60s began with the assassination of John Kennedy in November 21st, 1963, and they ended with the fall of Saigon. SM (00:16:57): That was April 30th of 1975, I believe. PC (00:17:01): Yeah. So, what we called the (19)60s actually was only part of the (19)60s and was also part of the (19)70s. SM (00:17:13): I have asked this question, and again, I can get different responses. But if you were in a room with 500 Boomers and these Boomers were from all over the country, and they were of all ethnic groups, males, female, different qualities, and you asked them if is there one event in your life that had the greatest impact on you, what do you think that event would be? And we're talking about Boomer lives that had lots of events. PC (00:17:47): Yeah. Boy, that would be a one event. Well, probably again, this Boomer generation since some of them were, I think do not sociologists classify it as being up people born up to 1964? SM (00:18:07): Yes. PC (00:18:09): So I got to qualify that a little bit. I got to split my answer. I would say for older Boomers, the assassination of John Kennedy would be the signal event. For younger ones, I would call it the Kent State shootings. SM (00:18:32): Right. Now, I have a question on that later in the interview that we will go into. How important in your views were the college students in ending the Vietnam War? All the protests on college campuses? PC (00:18:49): I do not think very effective at all. SM (00:18:52): Explain in detail or just your thoughts. PC (00:18:57): Well, first of all, what really ended the war was the North Vietnamese invasion of South Vietnam in 1975. But I think you are really talking about our part in the war. And what led to the withdrawal of American forces from there was the growing perception on the part of the American mainstream, the American middle class, what Nixon called the silent majority, that the war was futile, that we were wasting many lives and a lot of money over there toward no end or an uncertain end. And I think that is what led, we can argue about Nixon's how much withdrawing he really did have American forces, but he did begin to withdraw them even if it took it four years. And I think that is really what ended the war. Probably if there was one event that encapsulated that feeling, it was the moment when Walter Cronkite, the great face of the American mainstream, said at the end of his newscast that, I do not recall his exact words, but he pretty much told the American public that his experiences in Vietnam had led him to the conviction that it was not a winnable war and that we ought to get out. SM (00:20:48): And again, this is just from your personal observations from being a reporter, a writer, an observer of America over the past 40 plus years, do you think Boomers have been good parents and now grandparents? And I preface this by saying that the generation is often looked upon as an activist generation, but only really 15 percent in my readings of the period were involved in any kind of an activism and 85 percent just went on with their lives. PC (00:21:23): Yeah, I wanted to bring that up too. SM (00:21:24): But subconsciously though, probably all of them were somewhat affected by this. And I am just curious as your thoughts on if you feel the Boomer generation of 74 to 78 million depending on what you read, have been good parents, not only in terms of sharing what it was like when they were young and giving their sons and daughters a belief in idealism that they can be positive change agents for the betterment of society, just activism or just your thoughts on them as parents and now as believe it or not as grandparents? PC (00:22:01): Yeah, I do not think I could answer that for when you are talking, what did you say, 74 million people? SM (00:22:12): Yeah. PC (00:22:15): I just know about my wife, my second wife, is a Boomer who was born in (19)53, and my sister-in-law who was born in (19)55 as a Boomer, let me think. I got friends of mine who were born in the late forties. I am just speaking of them. The ones that I know, that is all I can tell you. SM (00:22:37): That is fine. That is fine. PC (00:22:38): The ones that I know have been certainly I would say probably better parents than I was. I was really an old school parent, old school father, kind of disassociated somewhat from the lives of my children. I was the stern, ex-marine disciplinarian kind of thing. And the ones I have seen were much more involved, I think, in the lives of their children and really hands on in getting to do well in school and to achieve something in life. That is about all I can say. And I am talking about maybe at most 10 people, 10 sets of parents I should say. And I could not speak for such a huge ass number. SM (00:23:49): This is something very important. I got two more big questions here, and I am going to get into really direct questions on your experiences in Vietnam and the impact, and your writing and everything. I have to read this one though. I took a group of students when I was working at Westchester University, it must have been about 10 years ago now. We took a group of 14 student leaders to Washington DC to meet Senator Edmund Muskie. And we were able to arrange this because Senator Nelson was a friend of his, and we had a series of meeting former senators. And one of the questions the students came up with was a question that we asked him, the one I am going to read to you, and we got an unusual response from him. And let me read it here. Do you feel Boomers are still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, the division between Black and White, divisions between those who supported authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not. What role did the wall play in healing divisions? Or was it primarily a healing for veterans? And do you feel that the Boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has 40 years made the statement, "Time heals all wounds," a truth? And I just want to mention that we thought Senator Muskie was going to talk about the (19)68 convention, which he was the candidate. And he kind of gave a melodramatic pause and he said, "I just saw the Ken Burns series in the Civil War when I was in the hospital." He had just gotten out of the hospital. "And we have not healed since the Civil War." And then he went out to talk for about 10, 15 minutes on that and never even talked about (19)68. Your thoughts on the healing issue in America. Is this an issue? PC (00:25:47): Well, I would not call it an issue. I would simply say that first of all, I really understand where Muskie was coming from when he mentioned the Civil War. Because again, in certain talks that I would give on topics like this one, I have talked about the American Civil War and how the repercussions of it just echoed and echoed for at least a century after Appomattox and probably longer than a century. And again, we must be careful, but I guess we have to for sake of argument of setting up these dichotomies, those who supported the troops and those who did not and blah, blah, blah. But just for the sake of argument, we will say that they existed. Well, it is quite obvious that among that Boomer generation, that those divisions in attitude and outlook and politics have echoed very loudly down to our own bay. And all you had to do was take a look at the 2004 presidential election. That is the one that I have cited quite often, is that all of those serpents that have been crawling around in the mines of the Boomer generation came out when Kerry ran against Bush. SM (00:27:29): Yes. PC (00:27:30): It was almost like the two of them were incarnations of the two faces of that particular generation. SM (00:27:42): Could you talk a little bit- PC (00:27:43): I remember actually being called by, I do not know why he called me, but he did. I was called by a reporter from the Houston Chronicle during all that business of the Swift boat veterans and so forth. And he asked what I thought about it. And I said, "Well, here we are involved in two other wars now, the Iraq and Afghanistan, and we are re-fighting this one," I said, "That took place 35 years ago." I reminded him that more time had passed between 2004 and the end of the Vietnam War than it had passed between the Custer Massacre and the beginning of World War I. And he agreed. He said he was 33 or years old or something at the time, or 35, and he said he was just stunned by this. He said, "Why are these guys re-fighting these old battles?" Well, it is the same reason that I guess the South and the North and the Confederates and the Union people really re-fought the Civil- PC (00:29:03): People really re-fought the Civil War in one form or another for, as I say, a century after the last shot was fired. SM (00:29:12): That is really interesting. When I asked that question to Senator Nelson, he said, "Well, people do not go across Washington or are not walking on down the street of Washington DC with lack of healing on their wrists or on their shirts." But he did say Vietnam will forever have an impact on the body politic, and I thought that was very prophetic. And Mr. Caputo, one of the interesting things is that just about every foreign policy happening that takes place, people always talk about Vietnam. It's amazing. PC (00:29:49): [inaudible] Right now, with Afghanistan, is that second thing. SM (00:29:52): If you recall when President Reagan came into power, he said, "America is back." And he emphatically was saying, from the divisions that we had back in the (19)60s and the (19)70s, and he was going to change America back to the way it was, kind of like John Wayne. And then of course, President Bush senior talked about the Vietnam syndrome is over. And again, I am going to get into some direct questions here, but when you think of Ronald Reagan's presidency and what he meant to America, and when you think about George Bush Sr and his presidency and saying the Vietnam syndrome was over, as a Vietnam vet, what were your thoughts on those two presidents and what they said? PC (00:30:36): Well, if we take George Bush Sr first, when he said the Vietnam syndrome, he was defining it very narrowly, and not even toward foreign policy, it was toward military action. And he was just basically saying that we are no longer fearful of committing military forces toward the defense or furtherance of our interests, the way we had been, I guess, paralyzed or semi-paralyzed in the wake that Vietnam. That is what he was saying. Then, I think he was right about that. In other words, that he was correct in his analysis of it, I think somewhat to our misfortune. I think had we been a bit more reluctant, we may not have gotten involved in what I still regard as this really stupid and unnecessary war in Iraq. Now, as far as Reagan went, I think what happened there was that the voice of the other people you were talking about, that 85 percent who had gotten on with their lives, or perhaps that 85 percent whose voice is heard in the Newt Gingrich’s and the George Will’s, that particular aspect of the boomer generation found its hero. When I think of Reagan though, the thing that troubles me, and by the way, I voted for him, and I am a lifelong Democrat. And I voted for him the first time, with Carter and all that, and then did not the second time. But the one thing that troubled me about his administration was I think the elevating of that materialistic element in the American character into a kind of, I do not know, almost a dogma, a sacred text. I remember when he said that something about the great glory of America, or the great thing about America is that anybody can become a millionaire. And now, that is been with us probably maybe our entire history, but certainly since the advent of the industrial age in America. But I remember being struck by that, and I said, "That is it? That is what this country is all about? Becoming a millionaire?" And I think that that led a lot to that, to what I would call the transformation of the self-indulgent aspect of the boomer generation into that scramble in the (19)80s to just make lots and lots and lots of money. SM (00:34:08): Yeah, I think- PC (00:34:08): I certainly saw all kinds of boomers who told me that they had been in anti-war protests, stuff like that, who were working on Wall Street and raking it in. I can remember one guy, as a matter of fact, we were in the Oak Room of the Plaza Hotel, he and his wife, and me and my wife. And I do not know, he had been in a couple of marches and all that. Now, I think he was some sort of rising muckety muck with Salomon Brothers or Goldman Sack, I forget which. And we were drinking martinis. And then I said, "Oh, man, we got to get back to Connecticut, my wife and me, and we got to catch a cab and catch a train." He says, "Oh, fuck the cab, fuck the train." And he just gets on the phone and [inaudible] this stretch limo and takes us all home. So that, to me, was the Reagan era. That is one of the things that bothered me about that era was. And then I think too, is that just in a specific policy argument, that deficit spending that he led us into- SM (00:35:36): You still there? PC (00:35:37): ... has been really detrimental. And his breaking up of labor unions, when I told you I am an old-time democrat, that [inaudible] electrical... SM (00:35:47): Oh, hold on one second. Can you hold on one second? PC (00:35:51): Yeah, sure. SM (00:35:51): Okay. Somebody is trying to get... You still there? PC (00:35:53): Yeah. Still here. SM (00:35:55): That was my brother. PC (00:35:56): Oh, okay. SM (00:35:58): Go ahead. That is okay. Go ahead. PC (00:36:03): Oh [inaudible]. See, where was I? Hold on. SM (00:36:05): You were a martini and you were going to fly back and... PC (00:36:09): Oh, yeah. Well, I think that was when I mentioned that Reagan also, I think, led to, accelerated the breakup of the American labor movement, which I think has been detrimental to our society. I think it is hardened class lines. I think it has been partly responsible for the lack of growth in wages for the American working man and woman. And I criticize them for that. I was sorry I voted for him for that reason alone. SM (00:36:51): No, a lot of people, in recent articles, said that part of the problems we are having in America in the economy today is that self-indulgent boomer generation. Spend, spend, spend, spend, materialism, and then of course, the credit card problems and everything. So, a lot of blames been put on them even for that. PC (00:37:11): Yeah. Well, I think that that is going a bit far. I see all these people who pouring into Walmart, or at least they were before the economy collapsed. SM (00:37:30): Exactly. PC (00:37:30): And I do not think they were responding to some sort leadership from the boomer generation in that. I just think that there is a lot of reasons why we're economically here. But I think that some of Reagan's policies are certainly responsible. SM (00:37:47): If you were to just respond directly to this question, why did the Vietnam War end? Why did it end? Some people say it ended when body bags came, when families in middle America had their boys are coming home in body bags in middle America. That that was really the beginning of the end. Why did we lose that war? PC (00:38:15): Well as, wait just a second. Could you hold on one second? SM (00:38:21): Yep. PC (00:38:21): I thought I heard somebody at the door. SM (00:38:24): Okay. PC (00:38:24): May not have been. Hold on. SM (00:38:26): Yep. Yep. PC (00:38:27): It was false alarm. SM (00:38:32): Okay. PC (00:38:33): Now, the question was is why did we lose the war? SM (00:38:36): Yes. PC (00:38:38): Well, I think it has been pointed out in a lot of, not just books and interpretations, but the direct testimony of the Lyndon Johnson tapes, that a lot of people, that Johnson, Senator Russell back then, and then a lot of the great minds of that time knew that the war was not winnable to begin with. So why was it not winnable? Is that it was basically a civil war between, just as ours was, between the north and the south. The north was as motivated by Vietnamese nationalism and a drive or desire to unite the country as it was by Marxist ideology. In many ways, Marxist ideology just simply provided the framework and the discipline for those nationalistic aims to be realized. There is a lot of strategic military reasons. We had extremely long lines of supply and communication. We were fighting in an alien culture, about which we knew next to nothing. It was partly a conventional war, but partly also an insurgency, and it's always very difficult for foreign powers to win insurgencies. And I think for all those reasons, and in the end, probably the main reason was is it was always the South Vietnamese's war to win or lose. Yeah, South Vietnamese society was too fragmented and too confused in its aims to win the war against the north. But I think what happened in (19)75, there is all sorts of people say, "Oh, if we had sent the B-52s in there, that the North would not have won. Well, yes, we probably would have stopped them in (19)75. And then I would say that in 1977, they would have tried the same thing again, and we would have just gone on and on and on. SM (00:41:28): One of the qualities that somewhat linked to the boomers is this issue of trust. Boomers went through their lives seeing leaders lie to them. Of course, Lyndon Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, Nixon and Watergate, even in recent years, as boomers got older, the questions of President Kennedy, how much did he know about the DM overthrow? And Sorensen's tried to clarify that in his latest book, but there were still questions. And even young boomers saw President Eisenhower lying on TV about the U2 incident. And I remember that, coming home from school and seeing him say those things. The next day, he admitted he had lied or had not told the truth. And of course, we would go on and on and on through a lot of different presidents, whether they lied or did not quite tell the truth. When I was in college, I remember a college professor telling me that the issue of trust is very important, if you are to be a success in life as a human being. And to not trust others means that you may not be a success yourself in life. And I asked myself, that is always stuck with me. And Boomers just never... Or the (19)60s was just a-a period where many of them did not trust anybody in positions of responsibility, whether they be a university president or a vice president of student affairs or a minister or a priest or a politician or a president or a corporate leader, anybody in a position of responsibility, there was a lacking trust. Your thoughts on whether this is indeed a quality that many in the boomer generation had? And if this is a really negative quality to have as boomers age, what has this done in terms of raising their children to think the same? PC (00:43:29): Well, first of all, yeah, question one is that, yes, I do think that the distrust of official authority, maybe not now, but certainly was a characteristic of many of that generation, not all. Do not forget, again, we're talking about this percentage of them that was the most visible and the most vocal. But it was justified. The fact of the matter is they and the entire American public were lied to in big ways, repeatedly. And Winston Churchill once famously said that during wartime, the truth must be guarded by a body guard of lies. And yes, every now and then, it is necessary for national security reasons to lie or at least to shape the truth or withhold the truth. But in this case here, our national security was not involved, whether we're talking about Vietnam, or there was other things going on Southeast Asia, Laos and Thailand, I remember was there was problems there and so forth. And the Diem execution is another example. Our national security was not involved there. These were the secrets of the CIA. So that boomers who distrusted official authority, in many of its forms, were right to feel so. Because the highest levels of their government were lying to them consistently and in ways that could and did affect their very lives. Because of those lies, there's 60,000 dead guys up there now, memorialized on that wall. And probably twice as many without arms or legs or eyes or even minds. Now, so far as it being a trait that is going to, I do not know what, make you a failure or something like that, I do not buy that. I think that questioning authority is basically a good thing. Because I am an old reporter, so skepticism is part of my DNA. SM (00:46:30): All right. PC (00:46:32): Yeah. So that skepticism's part of my DNA as an old reporter, but I think that one should be skeptical of what one hears. SM (00:46:43): Could you comment on, again, how important the music was of the boomer generation, in terms of not only rock folk and the Motown sound, but how important that was in inspiring the generation? It obviously had quite an impact. And secondly, what were the books that you were reading that you felt had the greatest impact, not only on you, but on these young boomers as they were in the (19)60s and (19)70s? PC (00:47:18): I think that as far as the famed music of that era, the protest music and all that, obviously it coalesced as all art, pop, whether it is high art or low art or pop art or some other art coalesced, the spirit of the times gave people anthems that they could identify with. Although, I think the music, like most of the culture of the time, I meant the artistic culture, was more a product of the times than it actually shaped times. Two books that I remember most, that affected me the most during that time were Catch-22 and Slaughterhouse Five. SM (00:48:11): Huh. What did those books say to you? PC (00:48:16): Well, Catch-22, first of all, is that on a literary sense, it kind of showed that the traditional novel need not be the only form of the novel, that there were radical new ways to go about writing a novel. I would say that for both of them, particularly for Slaughterhouse five. And both of them just discussed, explored at great length, not the tragedy of war, but the absurdity of it. And, of course, Catch-22 went beyond that, and just into an examination of the absurdity of modern bureaucratic society, with the military that Heller described being a microcosm of that society. SM (00:49:22): What do you think of the movies that have been made since the war and trying to explain the Vietnam experience, your thoughts on them? And secondly, well, just respond to that first. PC (00:49:38): Well, I think that it has been pretty uneven. Except for the most surrealistic of all the films. That was Apocalypse Now. I have not been overly impressed with what Hollywood has turned out [inaudible]. Although there was a rather obscure film called Go Tell It to the Spartans. SM (00:50:18): Oh, wow. PC (00:50:18): That came out, and I think it was Burt Lancaster was in it. And I thought that that was a very good film that it certainly, but it looked at an aspect of the Vietnam War rather than was a kind of big, sweeping epic of the whole war. So, no, I have not been overwhelmed by any of films. SM (00:50:46): What other books on Vietnam that do you really like? Whether they be novels or just non-fiction books that you really think are the best, for the respect to telling the story about Vietnam in the (19)60s? PC (00:51:04): Well, I could not say the (19)60s. I would have to think about that. But as far as the Vietnam War goes, for my own taste, the two best novels were Tim O'Brien's Going After Cacciato and The Things They Carried. But you can argue The Things They Carried is really a novel or a series of short stories, but we will not get into that hairsplitting at the moment. I think there were several other very fine novels about it, that were more traditional kinds of novels, but that were very, very good. Like Webb's Fields of Fire, and Joseph Del Vecchio's The 13th Valley. Those were more in the kind of Norman Mailer Naked and the Dead tradition. But I think they were very good. The best nonfiction that I have read about it was, without question, again, there's some really good ones, but was, without question, was A Bright Shining Lie, Sheehan's. SM (00:52:36): What do you think of how- PC (00:52:37): But followed by, I would say, followed very closely by Fire in the Lake, The Best and the Brightest, and Once Upon a Distant War, which was not so much about the war, it was about the media or press coverage about the war, but it was very, very, very good. SM (00:52:58): What did you think of David Halberstam's The Making of a Quagmire? PC (00:53:07): I guess that is sort of overshadowed in my... No, I was not bowled over by it the way I was by the other ones. SM (00:53:15): And one last book I want to mention, and did you have a chance to read Fortunate Son by Lewis Puller? PC (00:53:21): No, I did not. SM (00:53:22): Go ahead, it is a great book. PC (00:53:24): Yeah. I was told it was, and I think by the time it came out, I was kind of saturated with the subject. SM (00:53:33): Photography has been very important part of any era. It explains an era. The picture says a thousand words. When you think of the Vietnam, but when you think of the (19)60s, what are the photography pictures that first come to mind? I have three that I really pinpointed here, but I would like your responses before I mention my three. PC (00:53:56): Well, let us see. I got to think about as far as Vietnam goes, one, in fact, there is a signed copy of it hangs on my wall. It was Don McLellan's photograph from the Battle of Wei during the Tet Offensive, of what appears to be this shell shocked Marine. I forgot if he has got a title for it or not. And it's on the more recent paperback, the 1996 paperback edition of Rumor of War has a sepia tone version of that photograph as its cover. If you can take a look at it. SM (00:54:42): Okay. PC (00:54:43): Then the second one, again, from Vietnam, would be Larry Burrow's photograph of these wounded Marines on this miserable shell-pocked muddy hilltop, somewhere near the DMZ, and one guy has got bandage around his eyes. SM (00:55:05): Yep, I remember that one. Yeah. PC (00:55:06): And he is reaching his hand out to somebody else. That photograph. And then there is, and I cannot remember the photographer on this one, but there is a haunting picture of a medevac, and it is a captain deep in the jungle somewhere with a dead soldier covered by a body bag next to him. And he is calling a helicopter in through some clearing in the jungle. And there is this almost ethereal light shining down on this captain as he looks toward the sky. It could almost be corny, but it is not. SM (00:55:54): Wow. PC (00:55:54): Those three. Boy, now, far as the (19)60 era goes, but I cannot think of any specific. SM (00:56:09): The three that I was thinking of was the girl standing over the body at Kent State. PC (00:56:16): Right. I was about to say that one. And, of course, I know we're back to Vietnam though, but it was the famous one of the AP photograph of the Napalm Girl. SM (00:56:30): Yep. That is Kim- PC (00:56:31): The little girl with her clothes blown off. SM (00:56:33): Kim Phuc. PC (00:56:33): But yeah. Yeah. And there was another one from the (19)60s, and it is just vague in my mind, but I- SM (00:56:46): There is the other one that was the two athletes, the (19)68 Olympics, Tommy Smith and Carlos raising their fists. PC (00:56:55): Yeah. No, that was not one of mine. This was- SM (00:57:00): My Lai? PC (00:57:01): No, it was not that either. It was something from that Chicago convention riot. But I cannot remember who the photographer was and exactly was, but it was this picture of this protestor with this blood coming down over his face after he has been clubbed. And it looks like all the little trickles of blood look like cracks in a window pane. SM (00:57:31): Wow. PC (00:57:31): But that is all I can, that one’s sticks in my mind. SM (00:57:38): There is three quotes I want to mention from period that may define this period. One of the quotes is Malcolm X, "By any means necessary." The second one is the quote from Bobby Kennedy, which I believe was a Henry David Thoreau original quote. And that is, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were, and ask why not." And the third one is from a Peter- SM (00:58:03): ... were and ask why not? And the third one is from a Peter Max poster that was very popular on college campuses in the early (19)70s. And on the wording on that one was, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." It was those three, from different angles, from a more radical, from Malcolm to the idealistic beliefs that many boomers had with Bobby Kennedy, and then the kind of a hippie love and peace from Peter Max. Do those three quotes kind of define the boomer generation when they were young and in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, or... Of course We Shall Overcome is another one, but just your thoughts. PC (00:58:49): Well, I think that they do encapsulate, or almost aphoristically express some of the main elements of the zeitgeist of the (19)60s. Yeah, sure. SM (00:59:08): I have got some questions here now directly related to your experiences. When you came home from Vietnam, how were you treated? PC (00:59:20): Well, when I first got back, of course I remember I landed at two o'clock in the morning with just a couple of other guys at Glenview Naval Air Station near Chicago. Was a rather dreary homecoming. My parents were there to pick me up. The anti-war protest movement was not really underway the summer of 1966, but there were some... No, that barking means something. Just a second. SM (01:00:06): Okay. PC (01:00:08): That means somebody is at the door. SM (01:00:10): Yep. PC (01:00:10): All right, come here, come-come. Sage. Come. Come here. Come here. Get away from the door. Come here. Just a sec. SM (01:00:22): Yep. That is okay. The next question I wanted to ask you is... PC (01:00:33): Oh wait, just one sec. I want to... And the shed's open. All right, go ahead. SM (01:00:42): Yep. Not when you returned, but when a lot of the vets returned back in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, what did most of the troops think about the anti-war people back home? And I am not only talking about the college students now, I am talking about the politicians, the leaders that were along with the students that were anti-war. PC (01:01:06): Oh, well, I think that... By the way, I just want to back up a second, when I was mentioning that there were not a lot of anti-war protests when I came back in (19)66, but I do remember one moment when I was back on leave, and I was in Chicago and my Marine Corps haircut gave me away. And I was standing on a corner with a friend of mine near downtown Chicago, and a carload of kids came by and they yelled something at me about being a pig or something like that, and threw all of these McDonald's scraps at me and a bag of hamburger and french fries scraps. So that did not make me feel too welcome. But, I think that probably most veterans felt... most soldiers, whether it was by the college kid protestors themselves or by the politicians, I think they felt kind of betrayed, if there was a general feeling. SM (01:02:29): Were Vietnam vets discriminated against upon their return? PC (01:02:32): Yeah. SM (01:02:32): And I am going to say this in the area of jobs, service groups and so forth. I know my very first job at Ohio University, there was a Vietnam vet who I got to know quite closely, and he had two kids, and it was 1973. And the university was way ahead of its game, and they had to put Vietnam vets in the area with minorities in terms of possibly being discriminated against. What are your thoughts on America, say, in the first five to 10 years, and how they looked at Vietnam vets upon their return? PC (01:03:11): Oh, I think it was, generally speaking, a very negative viewpoint. And I think that what you just said is correct, is that in effect, no matter what race you were or ethnic group, just being a Vietnam veteran almost automatically made you a member of a minority group that was looked upon with suspicion by the general society. And even contempt. And there was discrimination against... and I mean job discrimination, particularly in the academic world. So, no feeling on that. SM (01:04:00): Was the reason... We are not talking about the anti-war people now, we are talking about the government, people who hire people for jobs. Was it because of incidents like My Lai, the massacre, there was a perception that all Vietnam vets could commit those kinds of crimes? Post-traumatic Stress Disorder, they could crack at any time? What was the reason why they felt this way? Because I have stories of people, Vietnam vets who would go to the VFWs and they were not welcome. And they are welcomed with open arms now. But then they were not. PC (01:04:38): Well, I think that at the VFW where this is where some of the contempt came in, is that they were associated with a losing war. That they were losers in all senses of the term. They were losers as individuals, they were part of a losing army, and mind you, that most of the VFW guys were World War II guys and Korea guys and the World War II veterans, at least could say that they were members of the most triumphant army in American history. And I think that the society in general, there was this viewpoint of the Vietnam veteran as a so-called ticking time bomb, someone who was mentally disturbed as a result of his experiences. And then, I think at a deeper level, because a lot of horrible things did happen in Vietnam, people did not want to be reminded that these veterans were really themselves. They did not want to be reminded that the American young man was capable of doing some pretty terrible things in the conditions of battle stress. SM (01:06:22): But you bring out- PC (01:06:23): I mean, these things have always happened in battle. And I do not think they happened in Vietnam any more frequently than they happened in other conflicts. But they were more naked because you did not have the cloak or the covering of some noble cause ala World War II or freeing the slaves or whatever to obfuscate some of the terrible things that men do in war. SM (01:06:58): What did you take from your experience in Vietnam and bring back to America when you returned? Break it down into two parts, short term until the war ended, and then long term over the past 50 years. What did you bring back with you that has been with you since? PC (01:07:19): Yeah, I would say that the short term and the long term are really one and the same. And I am trying to think of how to phrase it. That given the right circumstances, anyone is capable of almost anything. And that we never know until we are faced with a critical moral choice, under great stress, which choice we will make. SM (01:08:14): How did you become who you are as a person, that person who became a marine, that young man who became a marine. How did you become who you are, number one? And of course, this same person goes on to write one of the greatest books ever, I think on war and on the Vietnam War in particular. Your book will be read three, four, 500 years from now. And no, it will be, because it is a classic. PC (01:08:44): I do not know that anybody is going to be reading 300 years from now. SM (01:08:48): Well, I tell you, it is a book for all time. And how did you become who you are? Because you have gone on and written some other great books and you are a great writer. PC (01:09:02): Well, when you are talking about is that how did I become who I was when I joined the Marines or... SM (01:09:08): Yes. Yeah. PC (01:09:09): Or since then? SM (01:09:10): Yeah, both. Long term, short term, who were you? How did you become who you are, that young man who went into the service and the man that you are today? So, you became an author after many years of serving. PC (01:09:27): Well, if we go way back to the early 1960s is... First of all, I grew up in a pretty much a blue collar family. And in a neighborhood and in a milieu that was basically kind of call it upper blue collar, if you want. My father was a machinist at the time. One of my best friend's father was a tool and die maker, that kind of thing. And almost all of our fathers and uncles and even older cousins had been veterans of World War II. And military service was just expected. It was a thing that you did. And it was also, of course, you had the force of the law at that time. Everybody was subject to the draft. So, that was part of the reason that I ended up joining the Marines was that first of all, they were supposed to be the best. And it was that if you volunteered, you somehow or another would be better than being drafted. That did not turn out to be the case. And then, well, we're going back now to the early (19)60s, the (19)63, (19)64 era. The idealism of that era, and that generation had not yet fragmented in the way that we have been speaking of for the last hour. I think I used to tell people as a joke. I said that a lot of my friends joined the Peace Corps, and I joined the War Corps, but we all felt that we were doing something positive to make the world better. And I thought that, "Well, okay, you serve your country and you take your stand against the Soviet communism and Soviet imperialism." My friends in the Peace Corps, and several of them that I graduated college with went to Africa and South America. One of them, in fact, I remember almost died of some deathly illness in Columbia, in the jungle. My roommate joined AID and ended up in Laos and living in a remote village. And so, I think that a lot of... I joined up because of a lot of patriotism and idealism. What is interesting to me is that when I look back on it, is that there was a unity in the idealism in the early (19)60s that then kind of exploded and fragmented as the decade wore on. SM (01:13:01): Was Kennedy's inaugural speech part of that too? PC (01:13:05): Yeah. Oh God, yeah. SM (01:13:06): Yep. PC (01:13:08): Oh yeah. I remember that. But still, when I see the old news clips from that, that still gives me chills. SM (01:13:16): How did you become that author? PC (01:13:17): Well, I think that all writers become writers because there are two things, is that they have been wounded in some way, and they were outsiders. And the Vietnam War did both to me. And I mean, it inflicted a kind of psychic wound. And that in turn, we were just discussing it about the society's attitudes, and I was as a Vietnam veteran, I was an outsider looking in. SM (01:14:12): When you wrote A Rumor of War, did you expect it to be such a big hit, number one? And what was the reaction of some of your peers, your Vietnam vets, when that book first came out? Because you revealed a lot of... some of the things, the bad side of the war, some of the things that soldiers do that are not so nice. PC (01:14:36): Yeah, right. SM (01:14:38): Yeah. So just I- PC (01:14:40): Go ahead. SM (01:14:42): Just what was the reaction of the vets that you served with and came home just like you did, proud Marines and those who followed? PC (01:14:53): Well, as far as... no, I did. As far as the expectations I had for the book, I can still distinctly remember when I finally finished it in... When did I finish it? 1976, I think it was. Yeah. And I remember telling my first wife, and by this time, I mean it had been accepted for publication by Henry Holt company. And I remember telling her, I says, "Well," I said, "Be nice as I think I got an advance of $6,000 to write the book." And I said, "I think it will earn the advance out and we should have enough money left over." I said, "Maybe to take a nice vacation somewhere." But those were my expectations because the subject was so anathema at that time that I just could not... I was stunned that anybody was going to publish it and then I could not imagine that anybody would read it in great numbers. As far as the reaction from federal veterans, it has been almost uniformly positive. And for just one simple [inaudible], I told the truth and the truth of the experience. And even if it revealed a lot of ugly behavior and presented myself among others and them in unheroic light, they did not mind that. They have not minded that at all. They appreciate it. Anybody is going to appreciate the truth when it is presented to them, and we know it is there. SM (01:16:52): What are your thoughts on Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon, and even Gerald Ford at the end when the pardon came of Nixon? Just your thoughts on those three as the war ended, because obviously LBJ ran the war. Nixon said he was going to end the war, and he technically did, even though half the people in the names on the wall died after he became president. And then President Ford came in on unusual circumstances. Just your thoughts on those three men. PC (01:17:26): Well, my thoughts now are on this, as I now see Lyndon Johnson as a truly tragic figure. I think he was a man who had really... He wanted to do great things for the American people. And he did. From the Voting Rights Act, Civil Rights Act, Great Society and anti-poverty programs and so forth. But he was caught by the circumstances of the Cold War that combined with his own insecurities about himself as this Texas farm boy surrounded by the brilliant minds of the Ivy League. And oh, I guess what he viewed as a hostile media and so forth, combined with his own insecurities to lead him to commit American troops to a war that he knew and that some of his top advisors like Russell Long told him was not going to be winnable. Nixon, I see more as a, I cannot help it, it is cliched now, but as a brilliant, but I think fundamentally evil man. And I think his [inaudible] was Henry Kissinger. I mean, when you talk about lies and secret wars and all of those machinations that Kissinger was pulling off, I mean, even in (19)68, when he was taking part in the peace talks in Paris. But now evidence, I think I saw it recently in the one book about Nixon, is strong evidence that he was deliberately undermining the peace talks he was taking part in so he could advance Nixon as a presidential candidate and then attain a position of power in the Nixon administration. And I think both of them were very callous about the lives that they were risking, both Vietnamese and American. And Ford... I grew up in the Middle West. Ford is a very typical old time Midwestern Republican, a fundamentally decent guy. He had these two guys, Lyndon Johnson and Nixon, both extremely, I think, very talented, but very complicated and very flawed men. And yet Ford was basically, had very few moving parts, but it does not mean he was simple minded or something, or kind of a dope. I think he was a very smart man, but his personality was not complicated. I think he had a clarity of vision that the others did not. But it was combined, as I say, with this fundamentally kind of small-town Midwestern Republicanism. SM (01:21:45): What were the veterans' that you knew, your peers' thoughts on Robert McNamara, William Westmoreland and Abrams? PC (01:22:00): I never heard any opinions about Abrams, mainly because I think that by the time he took over, I was well out of the service. Westmoreland, I think to most veterans... I mean, I kind of thought of him as a bit of a staff type general, the spit shine shoes, spiffy looking Eagle Scout general, up at the front lines, chesty puller kind of general. In fact, you just saw him as kind of a remote person. I do not know but I do not seem to recall anybody getting in any discussions with any other veterans about him. I do recall getting in discussions about McNamara, and it was just almost universal loathing among the people I have talked to. SM (01:23:13): What was your thought when he wrote the book In Retrospect in 1995, and then he wrote another one where he admits to the mistakes that he made? And I remember I asked, that was the very one of the questions I asked in my very first interview with Senator McCarthy, because around that time, about a year later when I interviewed him, the book had just come out. And Senator McCarthy said it was, "all trash, a little late," and he was furious. But some people say, "Well, geez, at least he finally admitted that he was wrong." And that that is something to think about too. So just what was your thoughts on the book In Retrospect and his follow up book? PC (01:24:01): I am ignoring McCarthy's temp on that one. I mean, I would not think of it as trash, but it was definitely way too little, too late. And my other feeling is, so what? So he admits his mistakes, but the fact of the matter is that he couched these admissions in such a way as to almost make it sound as though he were... that his great mistake was not seeing things as he should have before we committed to Vietnam. And in fact, he did. I mean, he knew, and again, there's ample evidence. I cannot cite a chapter and verse at the moment. In the Lyndon Johnson tapes and in some other... even in McNamara's own writings, that he knew ahead of time that this war was not winnable. And he never explained to me in either book, and I could barely read the second one. I was so infuriated. Never explained to me clearly, as to why he went ahead with it anyway. And became the chief architect of the war. SM (01:25:41): How do you feel, I got a couple names here, and how do you feel, and some of your vets feel about the following people at the time, and maybe your reflections today? Muhammad Ali. PC (01:25:54): Oh, well, I loved him. I first saw him fighting, that Liston fight in (19)65, and then... No, I just thought he was really cool. SM (01:26:06): Were vets upset with him when he went against the war, and he would not serve because he was a conscientious objector? PC (01:26:14): No, I believed in that then, and I still believe in it. I mean, I think he was an authentic, conscientious objector, and he paid the price. This was not a case of where he objected to the war and he got rewarded for it in some way. I mean, he paid the price for his defiance of the norms of the day. And I saw his point of view. If I had been a black guy back then, I would have certainly questioned about, "Why am I going over here to fight these guys?" As he said, "No Viet Cong ever called me nigger." SM (01:27:03): Right. PC (01:27:03): And- PC (01:27:03): As he said, no Viet Cong ever called me nigger. SM (01:27:03): Right. PC (01:27:03): And there was a lot of truth in that. SM (01:27:07): How about Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden? PC (01:27:11): Well, now this is going to sound contradictory, but no. My feelings toward them are negative, especially Jane Fonda. I think that Muhammad Ali, first of all, because of his particular version of the Islamic faith, and I think he actually thought things through. He thought about, "Okay, can I in conscience take part in this war and go into the army, both as a black man and as a member of the..." What was that called? It was not exactly called Islam. It was some... SM (01:28:01): Black Muslims? PC (01:28:03): Black Muslim. Yeah. It was a Black Muslim [inaudible]. And I think he thought things through and realized the price he would pay, and he paid it. And I admire him for that. I think Jane Fonda was reacting without any kind of thought to the things she did. She was reacting like a typical, I think, celebrity movie star. Sometimes a lot of them just strike me as huge vacuums that have to suck in all of this energy of attention and publicity. That is how I saw her. SM (01:28:51): How about Tom? When you look at Tom Hayden and Rennie Davis, though, they were called the intellectual leaders of the left, and they were big anti-war. Just your thoughts on them? PC (01:29:04): Well, they are kinder than they are toward Jane Fonda. But I fault them for, and I think an unjustifiably false reading of the American public. They basically thought that America was right for some kind of total revolution. All American society was going to be turned upside down violently or non-violently. And I think that that was an unjustifiable reading the mood of the American public and the kind of reading that you get from a person who is an ideologue with blinders on. Then I think it led them into a lot of actions and a lot of rhetoric that I just simply do not agree with. SM (01:30:07): How about the three politicians that many look upon as the big-name anti-war leaders: Eugene McCarthy, George McGovern, and Bobby Kennedy? PC (01:30:19): Yeah, just a sec. SM (01:30:19): Okay. PC (01:30:27): I worked for, in a very small way, but it is kind of like a precinct canvasser for Bobby Kennedy, and after he was assassinated for Gene McCarthy. So obviously I admired both of them. Stuff has come out about both of them since then that makes you see that there were some aspects to their characters, especially Bobby Kennedy, were not so admirable, and that Gene McCarthy sometimes comes off as an almost an arrogant intellectual who was, I do not know, a little too Olympian in some of his attitudes. But generally speaking, I admired, and still do, both of them. Then you mentioned somebody else. SM (01:31:28): George McGovern. PC (01:31:29): Same thing. I have worked for McGovern's campaign. I have thought of him and still do, I have met him once or twice briefly, as a principled man who was willing to take a lot of flak for the... SM (01:31:54): Hold on one second. PC (01:31:55): As I said, he took political risks for his [inaudible] and I admire him for that. SM (01:32:14): How about Vietnam Veterans Against the War? PC (01:32:17): Well, I joined them, so I cannot say anything, but that I thought that they had the right idea. I remember I was opposed to the war. I was against the war. I talked to some anti-war movement people, and I did not really like them. And I felt like the only people who had any moral authority to really protest the war were veterans. And so, when Kerry formed the VVVA, I joined them. SM (01:32:59): What do you think about the Black Panthers and the Weatherman's groups? PC (01:33:04): Oh, well, the Weatherman is just, they are contemptible. Again, you want to talk about misreading the American public, they were really guilty of that. They were basically nihilists. They were acting out some kind of psychodrama with violence, and certainly were so insular and so hermetically sealed in their own little revolutionary bubble. And again, they thought that the American public was ready for this revolution, and they were going to lead it. It was just a delusion of grandiose proportions. Same thing with the Black Panthers. Maybe some of their anger can be explained, but I do not think a lot of the things they did, the shootouts, the murders and all of that, there's no way to justify that. SM (01:34:18): I know the Black Panthers had the food programs that were very popular and very good, but they are set- PC (01:34:25): South American dictators do the same thing. It is always this bullshit that comes out when people who have violent political agendas, or Hamas over there in the Gaza Strip. They say, "Oh, well, they hand out water and food, and they have social services." So what? They are basically criminals. SM (01:34:53): There is seven big names that come out of that. Of course, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, and Angela Davis. I know that Dave Hilliard too. So these are all names of the Black Panthers that represented different things. They were a lot different in their own way. Do you bottle them up all together? PC (01:35:19): Yeah, I bottle them all up together. SM (01:35:21): What did you think of Students for a Democratic Society? They died when the Weatherman became a reality. PC (01:35:33): Well, the Weatherman, basically, Weatherman action took them over. I do not know what I thought of them. I had a brother-in-law, a high school classmate that was a member of SDS. I do remember getting into some vigorous arguments with him, obviously. For example, maybe this will tell you what I thought of them, is that he was trying to recruit me. Because they figured that a veteran would add some credibility to their ideas. And I remember him showing me a cover from The Nation magazine, and it had an oil derrick on the cover. The article that he was citing, its thesis was that the United States was fighting in Vietnam to gain control of the oil fields offshore of Vietnam. I think they are called the Spratly Islands or something like that. I remember he says, "That is what that is you were fighting for." And I remember looking at him and I said, "You know, Jack?" I said, "I wish [inaudible] for that." He says, "What do you mean?" I said, "Because then I could say, "Okay, I fought for an oil field.'" I said, "Right now I do not feel like I fought for anything." And they had this traditional, in other words, Marxist or neo-Marxist outlook about the world that I think was essentially incorrect. That we were fighting in Vietnam to gain control of these natural resources. SM (01:37:41): What did you think of Dr. King's speech against the Vietnam War? Because that was, even in the civil rights community, he was heavily criticized for getting outside his territory. What was your thought on him giving that speech? PC (01:37:58): I do not remember that I had a thought. SM (01:38:01): Okay. I was wondering if any of the veterans you knew reacted to that. PC (01:38:04): No. SM (01:38:06): No? PC (01:38:06): I did not have a lot to do with veterans after I got out of the service. There were not that many around, tell the truth, or the ones that were did not reveal that they were. But no, I do not remember that I had a thought about that one way or the other at the time. Again, I did not really know a lot of veterans, especially immediately after I got back. SM (01:38:33): You covered Vietnam as a reporter. I think you witnessed there. What did you think when the helicopters took off from the embassy in Saigon when the war was over? What were you thinking having served and knowing that over 58,000 Americans died and thousands were injured, both physically and psychologically? And then of course we got to also say 3 million Vietnamese died in that war. When those helicopters were taking off, what kind of feelings were going through your mind? PC (01:39:04): Well, I felt two things, because I wrote about them in the paper. I felt a mixture of bitterness and relief. Deep bitterness that these... I had 16 of my buddies were killed in action over there. SM (01:39:23): Oh geez. PC (01:39:26): A deep bitterness that they truly had died for no reason and a relief that it was finally over. SM (01:39:40): Jan Scruggs, of course, you probably read this book, To Heal a Nation. Did the Vietnam Memorial heal the nation? The Wall? I know it's done a lot with the vets and their families, but you cannot heal even every vet, because they have their issues. But his book centers on the fact that that was very important in healing in the nation. Do you think it has? PC (01:40:06): Well, I got to tell you in all candor, I do not believe in this healing. All it is, it's what I call the cant of this therapeutic culture. There are wounds that just remain tender forever, and they probably should. And no, I do not think that the Wall helped. It might have helped, like you say, Vietnam veterans and their families. Yes. I do not know that it helped heal them. It was a place where you could go and experience a certain kind of emotional catharsis, I guess. But it certainly, I do not think it did anything for the divisions in the nation, as going back to what we talked about quite some time ago now, is the 2004 election. Look at this. You had Vietnam veterans as members of this swift boat campaign turning on another highly decorated Vietnam veteran in the most vicious way imaginable. So, I did not see that there was any healing as far as the nation went. SM (01:41:39): Who do you blame for losing the war? PC (01:41:45): Well, nobody, because it was not winnable. SM (01:41:51): Okay. PC (01:41:51): All right. Let us put it this way. I blame the persistence and the discipline of the North Vietnamese army. SM (01:42:00): In the book since the Rumor of War, what have been the messages you have tried to deliver in those books? PC (01:42:14): Well, did you want to include A Rumor of War? SM (01:42:20): Yep. Include that one, but certainly your number two book and then some of your novels. PC (01:42:27): Well, as far as A Rumor of War went, I think I mentioned this in the afterward to one of the editions, is one of the purposes I had in writing, it was to create, by making an appeal to the physical senses, the virtual tour of duty for anybody who read the book. In other words, to put a reader into the Vietnam that the ordinary fighting man experienced, as much as was possible on the printed page. And when the reader finished the book, I wanted that reader to think or say to himself, "Now what do I think? Now what are my opinions and attitudes about Vietnam?" If I had a conscious motive it was that. In other words, as far as my other motives, they were probably unconscious. It was almost like an irresistible compulsion to set this experience down on paper. Many of the other books have been, particularly the novels, have been about the idea I expressed a little earlier here. Was that they have been stories about people in extreme circumstances or alien circumstances, where none of the usual moral guideposts of life exist. Facing moral choices and the choices they make become revelatory of what their true natures are. I have tried to get that across in a lot of novels, particularly in Acts of Faith and Horn of Africa, two books that interestingly enough take place in almost the same part of the world. SM (01:45:20): I would like to ask a question about the boomer veterans. 3 million served in Vietnam, and I know in some of the materials that I have read that probably about maybe 450 to 500,000 actually fought on the front lines. But in talking to vets who did not fight in the front lines, their lies were in danger the whole time they were there. So even though the 2.5 million did not walk through the jungles, there was danger there. How do they differ? Again, when we define a generation, we're talking 3 million of a 73 million population. How do they differ from the other boomers? And Vietnam vets we know were not welcomed home upon their return, but now we see an era in which Vietnam veterans are, it is really in to be a Vietnam veteran. And that there is an issue of people lying that they were veterans and making money off it by speaking, by talking about it. And I remember the ultimate was Dr. Joe Ellis, the professor at Harvard who has won of Pulitzer Prize, yet he was teaching his students that he fought in Vietnam. PC (01:46:45): He was 173rd Airborne. SM (01:46:47): And that is amazing for a guy that already had won a Pulitzer Prize. So, what is he trying to do? Just your thoughts on how the Vietnam veterans may differ from the rest of the boomers and really how important they are in the boomer generation and for America. I think they are very important. I would worked with them for many years. Just your thoughts. PC (01:47:14): Well, when anybody is experienced, and this would really apply to, I think you said, half a million were actually in action. You are forever set apart from your peers and contemporaries. I do not know. You know things that those who have not been there do not know, and that very knowledge cuts you apart. And I have touched on some of that knowledge, about the knowing that what you say are, what you believe in, what you will do under a certain set of circumstances is all rubbish until you are actually confronted with that moment when you have to make the choice. And to say nothing of the fact that these guys were all between 19 and 22, 23 years old, and they confronted death on a daily basis. Suddenly a lot of things that seem important to people who have not confronted death, it just pale to nothing. So, you are set apart for those and other reasons. And I think I agree with you that I think they are quite important. In our political leadership, you can take a look at how many Vietnam veterans have risen political prominence. John Kerry, Jim Webb, who is also a very fine writer as well. He is a real renaissance man, Webb. And Chuck Hagel. And there is I think 13 or 14 other members of the state Senate, of the US Senate and the US House of Representatives who were Vietnam veterans, and many of them combat veterans of Vietnam. The chairman or the CEO and founder of FedEx, I want to talk about business, is a Vietnam veteran. There's people like me who have become well known writers and artists as well. And probably if you did some research you would find Vietnam veterans in prominent or leadership positions in every single field life. SM (01:50:13): I agree. Kent State and Jackson State, I would like your thoughts on that. You have to link both of them, because you wrote a really great book. I read it. 13 Seconds. They have always tried to make sure when they had the remembrance events at Kent State that Jackson State is always remembered as well. Would you go so far as to say that the deaths on that campus, those four students, and of course the students at Jackson State, are also combat veterans of the Vietnam War, but on the home front? PC (01:50:48): No, I would not go so far as to say that. No. SM (01:50:53): What is your thoughts on Kent State and Jackson State? What does that mean to you? PC (01:50:58): Well, it was along with the assassination of President Kennedy, probably. Well, I would say the assassination of President Kennedy, the Tet Offensive and the Kent State Massacre were probably the three most prominent events of that era. Now that was the moment, Kent State, I think, when a lot of people that were writing about the boomer generation realized that when you are in the revolutionary forefront, you are not just risking a whack in the head, you are risking your very life. That this is a deadly business. And I think the American public realized. No, I should not say that, because I know the reaction was a reaction of Kent State from the Great American mainstream that was actually quite vicious. A lot of people in America realized that the atmosphere in the country had become so toxic that those National Guardsmen pulled the triggers on these college kids who were really no threat to them whatsoever. You could say that the mood or the atmosphere in the country had its fingers on those triggers as well as the actual men who pulled them. SM (01:52:40): Okay. I have a couple names here. We are getting close to the end of the interview. A couple names that I would like you to respond to. You have already responded to some of the presidents. These do not have to be long responses, but just gut level reactions. Your thoughts on Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. PC (01:53:04): Clowns. SM (01:53:06): Timothy Leary. PC (01:53:08): Another one, but a dangerous clown. SM (01:53:11): How about Spiro Agnew? PC (01:53:19): I would just call him bombastic. I am trying to think of a word to describe him. He was bombastic and a demagogue. Bombastic demagogue. SM (01:53:38): John Kennedy. PC (01:53:47): He still moves me. I know everything, all of his flaws, and he had many. Personal flaws as well as political misconceptions. But there was still something about him that incarnated, I thought, a lot of great things in the American character, the American spirit. SM (01:54:17): How about Daniel Ellsberg? PC (01:54:17): I still miss him. SM (01:54:18): Right. How about Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers? PC (01:54:25): Well, I know Dan a little bit. I have met him. I am torn about that. SM (01:54:45): He is a fellow Marine, too. PC (01:54:46): Yeah, I know. SM (01:54:46): We can go on. PC (01:54:51): Torn about it, because you can take that idea of disclosing big secrets too far and endanger people. But I would say that given, looking at him in hindsight, I think he did the right thing. SM (01:55:10): How about Dr. Benjamin Spock and William Sloane Coffin? PC (01:55:17): No particular opinion of either one. SM (01:55:20): How about Daniel and Philip Berrigan? They threw blood on- PC (01:55:34): I cannot say that... No, I do not really have an opinion or a feeling about either one of them. SM (01:55:42): All right. Dwight Eisenhower? PC (01:55:53): A great general, a great man, but a kind of a boring president. SM (01:56:00): How about Barry Goldwater? SM (01:56:01): How about Barry Goldwater? PC (01:56:15): I see Goldwater as a, living right here in his state, and I still see... I am thinking out loud right now, just a lot of echoes of Goldwaterism... He was really basically, kind of almost a man of the American frontier, who had lived into an era when those frontier values were ceasing to make much sense. SM (01:56:47): Woodward and Bernstein. PC (01:56:50): Oh yeah. No, I think they both did a great thing. SM (01:56:56): What are your thoughts- PC (01:56:57): And I really admire them as journalists because both of them were not, they were not big stars in the paper, and I do not even think they quite knew what they had for quite a while. But they were persistent, and they kept after the story, and I think that they did a great service to the country and to journalism. SM (01:57:26): How about George Wallace? PC (01:57:29): A demagogue. SM (01:57:31): How about William Buckley? PC (01:57:43): I think he was a guy that was a brilliant, he definitely was a brilliant articulator of the classic conservative position, but at quite a few points in his life was a bit overly impressed with himself. SM (01:58:06): How about Watergate? Your thoughts on that? PC (01:58:11): Well, I go back to what I said. I said I think Nixon was an evil man, period. I think, when it came to politics, he was totally, totally amoral. And that Watergate scandal was a direct result of his amorality. SM (01:58:33): How about Woodstock and the Summer of Love? PC (01:58:36): Well, just a lot of frothy bullshit. SM (01:58:41): The year 1968. PC (01:58:45): One of the most dramatic years in our history, really a chronological dividing line. Think of everything that happened then, King assassinated, Kennedy assassinated, the riots after King's assassination, the Tet Offensive, the Chicago Convention riots. That was the year, going back almost to one of your first questions, that I felt that the country was going to blow itself apart. SM (01:59:21): And LBJ withdrew from... PC (01:59:22): Yeah, LBJ withdrew from running for another term. SM (01:59:25): The term counterculture. PC (01:59:36): What do I think of it? SM (01:59:36): Yeah, what do you think of the counterculture? PC (01:59:37): Oh, oh, what do I think of the term? Or what do I think of- SM (01:59:39): Just, yeah, the counterculture, not the term, just the... PC (01:59:42): Again, I think that that was, that is the least attractive facet or aspect of this boomer generation that you are writing of. It was basically a... It was self-gratification and self-indulgence masquerading as a social revolution. SM (02:00:08): How about the hippies and the yippies? PC (02:00:10): The same thing. They were the counterculture. SM (02:00:14): How about the Chicago 8? PC (02:00:21): Oh, I will go back to what I was saying about Tom Hayden and all that. They were basically ideologues, and like all ideologues, I do not think they lived in the real world. SM (02:00:38): And Tet. PC (02:00:41): Well, Tet was... That was an interesting event, probably a rather euphemistic way to put it. SM (02:00:50): That was (19)68 too. PC (02:00:52): Yeah, yeah. What happened with Tet is, it is often said nowadays, and going back 10, 15 years in some of the postmortems about Vietnam, that we had actually had the war won at that point, that we had dealt such severe blows to the Viet Cong that they had never even recovered from it. And that was true insofar as it went. But what a lot of people ignore was that this offensive took place at a time when the political and military leadership of America were telling Americans about all of the wonderful progress we were making in Vietnam. And that all of a sudden, this enemy that was supposed to have been on the ropes, comes back and stages these massive attacks throughout the country, even to the point of invading the American Embassy in Saigon. And I think that is when the American people said that somebody has not been telling us the truth. That is why that when they say that that was a psychological victory, they are correct. Where they're incorrect, is assuming that it was a psychological victory because the media made it so. What really made it so were the optimistic statements and predictions that preceded it. SM (02:02:37): Just a couple more. John Dean, thoughts on John Dean. PC (02:02:48): Well, what do I think of him? My opinion of his character, who- SM (02:02:52): Yeah, he is the guy that- PC (02:02:52): I think he was the guy that saw the ship was sinking and decided to bail. SM (02:03:06): Very good. Yeah. The final names here are the women leaders, the Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug. Shirley Chisholm's in there. A lot of the, Phyllis Schlafly, who was a conservative, the women leaders of that period. PC (02:03:23): Oh. So, what about them, I mean? SM (02:03:24): Yeah, just your thoughts, if you have any thoughts on them. Many of them got involved in the anti-war movement too. PC (02:03:31): Yeah, yeah. Well, it was because, once again, as I said, it was the war and then the anti-war movement it had spun. I still think it was the generator behind a lot of the social and cultural upheavals of that period, which would include the feminist movement. SM (02:03:46): The- PC (02:04:07): Well, I do not know. By the way, I have met Betty Friedan, and I would suspect... I mean, I never met Gloria Steinem. I never met Shirley Chisholm or Phyllis Schlafly, on the conservative side. But I have a feeling that if I did, that I would end up liking Betty Friedan the most. I liked her. I thought she was a very pragmatic kind of feminist, even though she is associated by analogy. SM (02:04:44): We often say that... In the boomer generation, we talk about the (19)60s and the (19)70s as boomers have aged, but we do not talk a lot about the (19)50s. And what is amazing is that the boomer generation is often defined as a rebellious one. But that is amazing and ironic when you look at the (19)50s that were kind of laid back, conservative. Nobody really spoke up that much. I reflect upon the (19)50s by watching the television shows, whether it be Mickey Mouse Club, or the Mouseketeers, Howdy Doody. PC (02:05:19): Yeah, seriously. SM (02:05:20): Howdy Doody, when they were very young, Hopalong Cassidy, all the westerns on television through the (19)50s, and certainly the movies. And I know that many of the boomers, when they were very young, the McCarthy hearings were going on. If they could have heard that voice on television, may not understand it all, telling people their communists and, of course, going through the threat of nuclear war and all the things, but parents giving as much as they can to their kids. And all of a sudden, the first-stage boomers go into seventh grade around 1960 when President Kennedy's going in, and everything kind of changes. Is there something about the 1950s that maybe really has not caught on here, or was that it really had an influence on boomers when they were young? And I want to add one other thing here. The beats were also part of the (19)50s, and of course, Kerouac and Ginsburg and those people, and their whole very being was challenging authority and the status quo. So, your thoughts on what was it in the (19)50s that may have influenced these young people subconsciously before they even started getting into junior high school? PC (02:06:39): Well, I think that one thing is that... I think we are talking about a number of levels of human psychology, and particularly mass psychology. One, that I would just say, was boredom. No. Sometimes boredom is a great motivator. I think that a lot of these people that grew up in the (19)50s were just kind of bored. They wanted action. They wanted excitement. They wanted things to happen. So I think that was a factor. I think the other one was privilege. I had mentioned this earlier. This was the first generation in America, its Black component excepted, that had never really known hardship and hard times, so it was comfortable. It had the luxury to think about things other than getting a job, surviving, rising just a little bit in society, hopefully from the lower class over to the middle class, and that kind of thing. And then another would be that there is a certain hypocrisy that they saw in their parents' generation that was, I think, undeniably there, particularly the racism that existed. At that time in the (19)50s, it was really quite virile. I mean, I remember it really, very clearly. One thing I remember is 1962, I was driving with two of my college buddies down to the big migration in Fort Lauderdale. We got lost. There were no interstate highways to follow at that time, and there's all these old US highways and state highways and stuff. Anyway, we got lost in the middle of Georgia somewhere at night, and we stopped at a gas station to get gas and ask directions. And I remember that I was really thirsty, and I went around to the side of the building, and I was just drinking at a water fountain. And while I was bent over the water fountain, I felt this tap on my shoulder, and it was the gas station attendant, who was a pretty beefy guy, big guy, and he had a type of [inaudible]. I think it was a blunt... It was probably an open-ended wrench, but it might have been a ratchet, I do not remember. Anyway, a large metal tool, and tapping me on the shoulder. And he says, "You do not look like no nigger to me, boy." And he pointed up to the sign, says, "Colored only," or is it blue? This is scary stuff. So, I think that there was a perception of a certain hypocrisy. And I think, too, is that when they talk about... Okay, we have the boomer generation and the greatest generation, which were the parents of the boomer generation, is that... Well, the greatest generation, I think too, it was probably a bit over materialistic, even though its materialism, in a lot of ways, contributed to the comfort and the security with which the boomers were brought up in. But I think that they may have resented that. They may have seen that their parents were too concerned with getting ahead, making a living, the old 1950s organization-man idea, and rebelled against that as well. SM (02:11:16): When the best history books are written, they are usually about 50 years after an event. Some of the best World War II books have been written in the last 5 to 10 years, and that is 50 years after World War II ended in (19)45. When the best history books are written about the boomer generation, 50 years, or even after boomers have passed, what do you think they will be saying about the generation? And again, the people that will be writing these books will be the generation Xers, of which is the generation that followed, or even most likely, millennials and future generations. So, they would not have even been alive during the time the boomers were alive. PC (02:12:04): Well, I could not project that far ahead. I would suspect that this, whatever you want to call them, generation X or generation Y, anyway, people might... I have two sons. They are 38 and 36, so I guess they are generation X. I do not know. SM (02:12:24): Yep, they are generation X. PC (02:12:36): And my impression is that if any of them ever write the history of the boomers, it probably will not be too positive a portrait. I think they may see the boomers as just a bit too self-involved, too self-centered, kind of like that newspaper reporter that told me like, "What the hell is going on here? People my age are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, and you guys keep arguing about this goddamn Vietnam War that took place 35 years ago." They may not be as impressed with the boomers as the boomers quite often are of themselves. SM (02:13:17): Mr. Caputo- PC (02:13:18): But I do not know. I cannot think about it. But then going further into the future than that is impossible for me. SM (02:13:25): Yeah. One of the interesting things is for some reason, millennials, which is people born after, probably in the mid-1980s in fact, they seem to get along fine with the boomer generation. There is really strong links because their parents are boomers, and now 85 percent of all the parents of college students are generation Xers. So, it is interesting, the links they have got. In the mid-(19)90s we did programs on the generation X and boomers, and boy, there was friction between these two generations. There is no question. And the friction was based on this, and it was very clear cut that there were two things that generation Xers thought about boomers. Number one is, "I am tired of hearing about what it was like when you were young. I am sick of it. You're too nostalgic." And the other reaction was, "Geez, I wish I lived during that era because there is no issues today for me like there was for you." So those are kind of some interesting comments. And we did two programs where we had panels on that. Those came out clear. The last question I have here is what do you hope your lasting legacy is going to be? PC (02:14:50): Oh, I think that if somebody who wrote some pretty good hardcover books that they will, it is to be hoped, be read a hundred years from now. SM (02:15:07): Well, I can guarantee you, Rumor of War will be read 300 years from now. No, I am a history major, political science major as an undergrad, and I have about 20, 25 books that I have read in my life, and I am a reader. Your book is there. Your book is just- PC (02:15:27): Oh. Well, I mean, I hope so. I think of, I am trying to remember it. Let me see if I can quote it exactly, probably will not be able to, but it's from Marcus Aurelius's Meditations. And it's a whole passage he has on the brevity of life. And he says something like, he says, "Brief, too, is the longest posthumous fame, and even this is carried on by poor mortals, who must themselves die and be forgotten." SM (02:16:09): Wow. PC (02:16:12): It is always good to... Yeah. I hope that my book will be read 100 or 300 years from now. A thousand years from now, it may not be. SM (02:16:28): Well, I hope it is still, will always being book form. I am worried about people reading on computers. But anyways, I do recommend that you do read Fortunate Son while you are out in Arizona. Pick it up in the library or buy it. I know they have copies of in the bookstore. I think Lewis Puller's book is excellent. He was one of the inspirations for me getting started in my project here because we took students down to Washington to meet him at the Wall two days before the Women's Memorial was dedicated. He spent over two and a half hours with seven of our students at a bench across the way there. And then in the spring, of course, we all know he committed suicide. It was very sad. And I have my own story about it. It is going to be in the opening of this book, things I am going to say about that, but I encourage you to read it. It is a great book. Are there any questions that I did not ask that you expected me to ask? PC (02:17:32): Gosh, no. SM (02:17:33): No. I guess I have covered it all then. I will turn my tape player off. Thank you very much. One thing I want to mention is that I went through 50 interviews before I realized I had to get waivers for all of my speakers. They all said, "You can use my tape," and once they get the transcript and edit it and stuff. And so, what I am doing now, I am having to send out waivers to the first 50 people I interviewed, and 7 of them had died, so I got to go to the family estates. So, I just wanted to let you know, sometime in the next couple of weeks I will be sending, through the email, a copy of the waiver, then you can make a copy of it, print it, and then send it back to me on the computer. PC (02:18:17): Okay. And I will try not to die between then. SM (02:18:19): Oh yeah, do not die. But Senator Gaylord Nelson was one of my earlier interviews. PC (02:18:24): Confuse your... SM (02:18:25): Yeah. Well, I just found out one of my interviews... just died recently, and it was Forrest Church from All Souls... the son of Frank Church. And then Jack Smith, I interviewed, and he passed away, and of course, Senator McCarthy, and so there's been a few. But I want to thank you very much for taking this lengthy time with me. It's an honor to talk to you. And one thing I do miss, and that is taking pictures of you because the way this book is going to be broke down, it's going to be broken down into seven different sections, and you will be in the veterans’ section plus the authors section. And I usually take pictures of all the individuals, 90 percent of the people I have been in person. So somehow, I need to get some updated pictures of you to put at the top, but I will be emailing you on that. PC (02:19:18): Okay. Yeah, I have got a friend of mine here who is a pretty good photographer. He could just get a shot at me. SM (02:19:23): Yeah. I do not know if you are ever in the Philadelphia area in the spring, and I do not know if you are [inaudible] or speak in that area. I got two people that I have already interviewed but are going to be in Philadelphia, Washington, or New York in the spring. And I am just going to take their pictures, anyway. PC (02:19:37): No, I do not plan to be. SM (02:19:40): Right. All right. Well, you have a great day. Thank you. PC (02:19:44): Okay. All right. It was good talking to you. I guess we certainly covered a lot of ground here. SM (02:19:52): And I will keep you updated on how the project is going. I got a lot of transcribing to do, and once I get it transcribed, you get a copy of that as well. And I will get the waiver to you first, and we will go from there. PC (02:20:07): All right, okay. SM (02:20:08): Well, thank you very much and happy holidays. PC (02:20:11): All right. Happy holidays to you, and you are welcome. SM (02:20:13): Yep. And talk to you... (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Philip Caputo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Caputo, Philip ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Journalists; Authors; Marines; Caputo, Philip--Interviews Description An account of the resource Philip Caputo is a Chicago born journalist and novelist. Caputo attended Loyola and Purdue Universities and served in the U.S Marine Corps for three years. He has written 16 books throughout his life and was nominated for the National Book Award for <em>Horn of Africa</em>. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-12-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.31a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.31b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 140:17 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/008f61d49e0ca729173249242f843919.mp3 5d5d4cad0668732fca392595bf404467 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5228d1eb94e14f64f22d69ad8aa588db.jpg c9d63360b96fec76a9140d39f18badf5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-04-04 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Philip Nachman Year of Graduation 1973 Biographical Text Philip is owner of his Watertown, Mass.-based business, Nachman BioMedical, Medical Industry Exec Search, a recruiting firm for selling medical devices. At Harpur College, Philip created his own major in American studies, which included a class in Jewish-American literature. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni working in the medical industry; Harpur College – Alumni CEOs; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni working in the medical industry; Harpur College – Alumni CEOs; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Philip Nachman Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 4 April 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) PN: 00:04 My name is Philip Nachman. We are having this interview in my home in Watertown, Massachusetts. IG: 00:09 When did you go to- PN: 00:12 I was a student in Binghamton from the fall of (19)70 through the spring of (19)73. IG: 00:18 Okay, and how old are you? PN: 00:21 How old was I at the time? IG: 00:22 No-no. PN: 00:22 Yeah, I am 67 years old. IG: 00:24 Okay, all right, so, Philip, where did you grow up? PN: 00:28 I grew up in Troy, New York. IG: 00:31 Oh, in Troy. And who were your parents? What did they do? Where were they from? PN: 00:36 Sure-sure. Well, my father, Burton Nachman, grew up in Schenectady, a town next to Troy, and married my mother, who was from Troy, which is like 15 miles away, and he married into a family business of my mother's family, which was men's clothing store that had been there since like 1905 that her father and uncles started at that era. So, from your from- both of them have gone to college. So, I am not the first generation in college. I have an older brother, four years older, also went to college, went to Ithaca College. So very much rooted in upstate New York. Very much rooted historically in upstate New York. Yeah. IG: 01:19 So, they expect- what was the expectation of you that you would go on to college or, PN: 01:26 Oh yeah, yes [laughs] IG: 01:28 Yes. Okay, so education was valued in your family, absolutely. PN: 01:33 Yeah. It was throughout, yeah. IG: 01:36 So, what were your reasons for going to Harpur? PN: 01:39 Well, I had spent my first two years at another school at Hofstra University on Long Island, and I did not like it, basically, so I wanted to transfer. And was casting about as to where to transfer to. I frankly, do not remember why I knew of Binghamton, but accepted me, so I went. So, I transferred in as a junior. IG: 02:00 Right. But it must have had some reputation, a good reputation- PN: 02:05 I am sure it did, yeah, uh- IG: 02:07 -inclined to transfer there rather than some other school. PN: 02:11 I honestly do not recall where else I may have applied just; I am not sure. I do not know that it necessarily was I needed financially to go to a public university, although I am sure it helped. So, I probably wanted a liberal arts school. I was not focused on engineering or the hard sciences in Binghamton, while they had had and have that also was really known as a liberal arts school. And from a practical standpoint, at that era, the school was attempting to increase its upper-upper division students, meaning juniors and seniors. Therefore, they were making it attractive for people to go there in terms of admissions, not that there was housing for these students. There was not. So, I probably knew someone who had gone there something like that, but I do not, I do not recall exactly. IG: 03:05 Right. And housing, you said so, but- PN: 03:09 There were not enough dorms. IG: 03:11 There were not enough dorms. PN: 03:12 So- IG: 03:12 Where did you end up? PN: 03:14 Well, I had a cousin, who actually cousin a year older, who was going to Binghamton. Maybe that is why I knew about the place, and I crashed in his room, I think, on his floor, while I looked for an apartment. And in those days, there was no Craigslist, there was a bulletin board. So, I went to the student housing office, looked at the bulletin board. Someone standing next to me was looking at the bulletin board. They were looking for a place. So, we apparently, yeah, we found a place together. Did not know the person from Adam worked out fine, some apartment in Vestal. And uh- IG: 03:47 You found a place in Vestal? PN: 03:48 Yeah, I think, I think the first place I lived was-was in Vestal, on Reno Boulevard. IG: 03:55 Did you have a car? Or did you [inaudible] PN: 03:58 I think, I think, yeah, I believe I did have a car. Yeah, I did. IG: 04:03 So, what was your first experience of Harpur College? What did it seem like to you after Hofstra? PN: 04:14 Very different in terms of the geography. Hofstra was built on a former airstrip, ugly ascent [crosstalk] you know the place. All right, 14 story concrete towers were from the era of concrete is great. Let us use more of it. Kind of ugly. So, I in terms of the geography, let us say literally, and sort of the socio-economic world. Because of having grown up in an old, sort of semi run down industrial town, I sort of got it right away, as opposed to Long Island, which was really one big suburb of New York. And even though I grew up in upstate New York, I was not that familiar necessarily with New York. City or its environs. So, I sort of understood, literally and figuratively, the landscape, the sort of social landscape of the town, not so much the school, but of the town. So, I liked that. I think there was probably a lot of construction and a lot of mud. Everyone wore, all the students were sort of hiking boots, or construction boots and flannel shirts. That was the that was the uniform in those days. Part of it is that was the fashion. But it turned out to be worthwhile because it was a big mud pit. There was a lot of construction. IG: 05:43 It still is. PN: 05:44 It still is a lot of construction, yeah, I see from the alumni news magazine and all of that. So, plenty of long-haired hippies, plenty of drug, sex and rock and roll, which is probably true of almost everywhere other than maybe West Point. Yeah. So yeah, it was sort of a, yeah, a normal liberal state university anywhere in the northeast, frankly, or elsewhere. IG: 06:07 But did you find it to be stronger what we were strong, not stronger, but strong in the in the humanities and the liberal arts? IG: 06:17 So, who did you read? PN: 06:17 Yeah. I mean, I gravitated toward, American history, sociology, anthropology, those areas, and at that time at least, you could petition some academic board to create your own major. You would need to get an academic advisor. So, I created a major in American Studies, which was not a major at that time. It may be now, and other schools have it, but it was not a particularly well-known thing in those days. But that way, I could mix my interests, and there were plenty of courses for me to take, which I enjoyed, and I actually one professor who I believe is still alive in his 90s. Taught, among other things, Jewish American literature, which I Sheldon Grebstein, he later became a president, I think of SUNY, SUNY, New Paltz, I think, or something like that. And that really had an effect on me. That was interesting to me. PN: 06:37 Saul Bellow, Roth, those authors that were current at the time, Jewish American authors, right, (19)50s and (19)60s, basically. PN: 07:26 You read Herzog. IG: 07:28 Herzog. Yep. IG: 07:29 What did you read of- PN: 07:31 Which- IG: 07:32 -of Roth. PN: 07:33 Roth. PN: 07:34 Well, there were two Roths. Call it Sleep, Henry Roth. IG: 07:34 Yes. IG: 07:38 Right-right. PN: 07:39 Not a lot of people, necessarily [crosstalk] IG: 07:41 I have not read it, but I know. PN: 07:43 Yeah, all right, yeah. So, whatever his Roth has since gone on to write many, many other books, but Bernard Malamud probably had more made more of an impression on me. The Empty Barrel [The Magic Barrel], or something like that the whole bunch of them. So, they were very interesting to me in terms of my own Jewish American identity, and in an odd way, that is I was more comfortable in Binghamton than on Long Island. I did not know. I sort of did not know what to do as almost the majority, I grew up in this town that was certainly like Binghamton. And I was much more comfortable in upstate New York, where the Jews were a minority. I sort of understood the social structure. I did not know about poor Jews, rich Jews, and everyone in between, which you would have in metropolitan New York, bazillion papers [crosstalk] I did not know about that. So, I just felt more comfortable somehow. And so those back to the courses. So, some American history courses. Just, I think there was a civil war course, just, I probably could find my transcript in the attic. IG: 09:04 I am curious about the-the- was it only American, Jewish writers, or were there- PN: 09:10 In that particular class was happens to be that subject. As far as other literature classes, I suspect I took one or two others. I do not remember, it did not, they did not have as much. IG: 09:26 I am very interested in how that shaped your identity. That that, you know, a course like that could have helped, you know, build, yeah, well, the person that you are. PN: 09:39 It certainly did. I mean, it was very ethnocentric, obviously, but in a strange, in an odd way, it was very American. It was the American experience of these characters. And it did not make me religious. I am not. But it certainly informed more my identity, I guess. And I am not-not digging as deeply as you would like, because I am not sure exactly how to tell you think about it, um, just, well some-some of those books had characters that were living through poverty and, you know, in the Lower East Side, let us say, and discrimination that I may not have directly felt. IG: 10:34 For example, which, which of the books do you remember? PN: 10:36 Well, certainly call it, call it sleep. A lot of poverty, grinding poverty, and abusive or maybe alcoholic father who left, and all these things I did not know from that stuff. So that was sort of interesting, because it gave me a range of types. And the Roth books, which, again, had, I do not remember as well. PN: 11:03 Philip Roth. PN: 11:04 Yeah-yeah. Philip Roth, sorry, yeah. We talked about Henry. Now, as far as Saul Bellow, his characters were sort of bigger than life. Augie March, I think, and not him bolt, something like that. This guy who was in Africa. He was got of his mind this bigger than life character. PN: 11:25 Was it Herzog? IG: 11:25 Herzog, well, I mean, he was also a bigger than life a long time ago. But is not he from, you know, I do not think that he was born in America? He might be an immigrant from Eastern Europe, PN: 11:39 Possibly. IG: 11:40 You know it, but I know that it, it, it is just kind of a deeply felt novel- IG: 11:50 -of the academic experience, you know, and the Jewish American- PN: 11:50 Yeah. PN: 11:56 Yeah, I do not know about well this guy, I am trying to maybe confuse him with another character, but he was a little bit off his rocker, and he was just this roaring presence. Maybe [inaudible] I do not remember, you know, when did I read it, 45 years ago. [laughs] IG: 12:14 You know, they obviously- PN: 12:16 Stuck. Yeah. So, yeah so all of that sort of informed what I knew of the Jewish American experience was, which was in the people I knew. And this might be true of Binghamton, if you were Jewish and you had gone to college, or even if not, you were either a lawyer, an accountant, a doctor or you owned a retail store that describes my family exactly, my father's cousins, my mother's siblings, where we had a store that was downtown, as in Binghamton. A lot of the retail stores were Jews whose parents were born in Europe, as my grandparents all were. And which brings me back to that is why I just sort of got Binghamton. Even if I did not go shopping, I did not need to sort of go shopping. But uh, so that is what I knew. I did not know about Jewish taxi drivers, Jewish cops, Jewish firemen. I later, in Boston, many years later, went out with someone whose father who was Jewish. Her father was a captain in the New York Fire Department. I did not know; I did not know there was a such thing. I mean, it was totally, really, well, and then the others who were not maybe as well off as my parents in the milieu I just described, were clerks in retail stores, or they were teachers. Not a lot of ditch diggers that I knew about. They may have been there, but I did not know about them, but they probably were not. I mean, that is just- IG: 13:49 And writers. I mean, you were reading the writers? PN: 13:51 Yes, right-right, yeah. And it turns out there are colleges in Troy, RBI and Russell Sage and in the next town Union, so it is sort of a college environment, some of those professors were Jewish, and I knew their kids because I went to elementary and high school with them and all of that. So that is just kind of the that is what I knew the Jewish world to be. Yes, although an uncle of mine was a milkman, somehow that did not compute, yeah, but, and then later, owned a trucking company, but he married my aunt, who was a lawyer, very, really rare. There were two people in our law school class, I mean, 1920 or something. So, all of that broadened my understanding of the Jewish community in America. Let us put it that way. Did not mean I pursued anything or ever, you know, religiously, right? But somehow it just informed my being. IG: 14:46 Right. PN: 14:52 Now the other courses, let me think about that. I mean, I was interested in the American history courses, whatever they were, you know, I just thing- I am thinking about too. One was the Civil War class written taught by a very interesting young radical who later committed suicide. It was the strangest thing. Robert Starobin, you may know the name. He was this radical leftist historian of slavery, and I had him as a teacher, interesting young guy, and he later, well, I was not in his class anymore, but I was still at the university. He later killed himself. It was shocking and remarkable, and I did, actually, I have done a little bit of- IG: 15:38 It happened in your time? PN: 15:40 Yeah, it happened in my time. It was probably in 1971 possibly (19)72 and his father was a pretty well-known leftist academic right and even collaborated on. IG: 15:51 How did it impact you or your probably was the first encounter with suicide? PN: 15:56 Oh, yeah, [crosstalk] I knew it was baffling. I thought it was terrible loss. I thought it was because I may have borrowed someone's paper and cheated or something. I do not think it mattered that much to IG: 16:13 Yeah, but you personalize it. PN: 16:15 Yeah, I personalized it, you know, completely wrong. He had other, a lot other-other issues having nothing to do with me. But there was a funny scene with him, sort of fun. He grew up, I think, in Queens or something, so a city kid, and I think a friend of mine had locked his keys in his card, left them in the ignition, and I must have been so in the class, and I mentioned it to Starobin, and he said, "All right, here, let us see what we can do." He got a coat hanger. He went outside, he put the coat hanger, got the coat hanger in the car, like going sort of around, and threw the rubber gasket around the window, actually hooked the key that was in the ignition and pulled it out. IG: 16:56 Wow. Pretty slick. PN: 16:58 Pretty slick. That was very cool. IG: 17:02 You only knew how to pick locks as well. PN: 17:05 I do not know. IG: 17:06 That is very impressive. PN: 17:08 It was very impressive, right-right. And this professor who taught the Jewish American literature course described himself, and this is Sheldon Grebstein. There was a graduate. There was a TI in the class. He described himself. He was very self-aware as a middle brow intellectual. It was so interesting versus, I mean, basically the guy was sort of saying, I am not going to win the Nobel Prize. I am not teaching at Harvard. I did not go there. I know who I am. I am happy where I am teaching, etc., etc., and it was just so interesting to see someone that this is who I am. He was a very interesting and a good teacher. Was a great teacher. And he and I think his thesis was on some other American literature having nothing to do with Jewish I mean, basically that was an interest of his, among others. And I Googled him recently, and I to see if he was still alive. He might be. I had called him about two years ago to thank him for an interesting course 45 years. I left a message. I never got a call back, and I Googled him the other day. If he is alive, he is 92 so. IG: 18:18 92 he can be still quite active. I knew, I know. PN: 18:21 He could be, yeah. IG: 18:21 Yeah, he could be. PN: 18:24 So, I so getting back to the school have any effect, yeah. I mean, I am remembering these things with fondness. And academically, I was no academic star. I was not trying to get into law school. I was not killing myself. I was sort of a lost liberal arts graduate. I do not know what the hell I was doing. Many people did not, IG: 18:52 Yeah, many people did not. PN: 18:55 Yeah. I mean, you know, people who knew they wanted to be an engineer, in a way, it was easier. First of all, the curriculum is quite set. Secondly, they were really focused on it. It was really quite concrete. You either got it you got the problem, right or wrong. [laughs] IG: 19:14 Yeah, itis a different, very different. It is a very different career trajectory. When you know from the outset. IG: 19:21 Well, that is a trajectory. PN: 19:23 I did not have a trajectory. IG: 19:25 You know- so how did you fall into the career that you have now? What-what exactly do you do? PN: 19:33 Well, I am- I have my own business as a recruiter, headhunter, executive search consultant specifically for the medical device business and some pharmaceutical--Boston happens to be a center for that. I got into that because probably not so much when I was an undergraduate. But later on, I decided I wanted to save the world. So modest-modest role. IG: 20:00 Yeah [laughs] yeah. PN: 20:00 So, I wound up studying public health, because if you save the world, want to do it have a big impact. IG: 20:09 Yeah. PN: 20:09 Wholesale. IG: 20:10 Where did you study public health? PN: 20:12 The University of Florida, public health and health education, and, more specifically, gerontology. A number of years after I got out of undergrad. So, to me, that was a way to save the bigger swath. So, I wound up, I pursued that and worked at a hospital having to do with public health and training of hospital staff and issues of Geriatric mental health. I did that for number of years, maybe four or five, and then wound up getting a job for a medical device company that had a product that had to do with, specifically with the elderly, to enable them to stay home longer and not go to a nursing home, if, if they were- IG: 20:56 What is a product? PN: 20:57 It is called lifeline. It was like a beeper system for- get people help. The point of that was for me, having studied gerontology and having worked in a community health center where I was going out to nursing homes to do training of staff, there are people in nursing homes, or at least there were then, who are not there for skilled care. They are there almost for it is just a safer environment, and they give up a lot of autonomy, but they are afraid they or their children, are afraid they are going to be home alone and fall and they will be discovered a week later by the mailman. So, this was an F this machine, which was invented by a psychologist, gerontologist in Boston was-was to enable people like that or did not need skilled care to stay at home with some security, that if they had a problem, they could get help. And there was even a timer, if they did not reset it every day, it would automatically get them help. Very clever product. So, I said, “Wow,” that is for me. I was not interested in capitalism. I was not interested in machines, but I thought this thing was great. So, I wound up getting a job at that company. Took me some lobbying and sometime right as a field service engineer, which is kind of funny, because I am no engineer, but a big part of it was training. PN: 22:18 What does a field service [crosstalk] PN: 22:20 Field service engineer is someone who fixes hospital equipment, either in a hospital or in a field, as the title might sort of imply, and does some training on how to use it. Well, I was the training director at a hospital, I know, and I was that was something I was good at and liked the stage, you know. So, it was a relatively simple device, and I could be trained to install it and to fix it and to teach people how to install it and all that. And I was great at it. But a bigger part of it, and probably a bigger part of my success in that, was understanding sort of the milieu in which it would go, and liking the training part and being comfortable in and around hospitals, because I had worked in one, so I-I wanted to do something at that company, and frankly, I did not care what that was the job that was open. So, he hired me, and it was great, great experience. And then I was promoted, and I became a salesperson for that company and trained a field service engineer under me. This goes back to 1984, (19)81. God, (19)81 and I am still in touch with people I worked with. Startups are like that. There is a cause, you know, spread, of course, especially if you think the product has real value, you know, social value. So- IG: 23:42 What do you think that you know this belief in the product lent to your contributed to your success in sales? PN: 23:53 Oh, sure, I could not have just sold anything. I would not have cared about just anything. So, it-it related to the Gerontology stuff. It related to saving the world, even if it was only an elderly piece of it, uh- IG: 24:06 Which is a huge piece nowadays. PN: 24:08 Oh, yeah. So that worked out well. And then that later, to answer your earlier question, how did I get to do what I do now for a living? IG: 24:17 Yes. PN: 24:17 So, I worked for that company for three and a half, four years, quite successful at it, but I got bored with it. Single Product, same story every time. If there were technical problems, the same technical problems, right? At that point, I had already moved from Boston to Florida because of a promotion within the company. And I kind of missed living here, excuse me, so I happened to see an ad in the Boston paper when I was living in Florida, I was here for a meeting looking for a medical sales person, and I went for an interview at a recruiting place. And it turned out the actually the job was there. It was sort of false advertising. They wanted to expand the recruit efforts in the medical area. And they wanted someone who had been doing medical sales. So, I interviewed at this place, and then the guy came clean and said, actually, the job is here. I said, “What do you mean?” And it was almost like a Costello act or something, l IG: 25:17 A little bit false advertising. PN: 25:18 Yeah. I mean, in terms, in a way, it was medical sales. At any rate, I wound up working there. It was great. I moved back here. I had a wonderful mentor, a very generous guy who knew a lot about medical devices and medical stuff. He had gone to medical school for a year and had an MBA and decided I want to be a doctor. And wound up in that business, and great guy and I wound up working at this other company for three, four years, maybe five, and then I went off on my own doing the same thing. And that is 30 years ago. So, I have been doing this a long time, but it all. None of it was planned, believe me, however, these steps relate to one another. Even if there was no map, there certainly was no map. It had nothing to do with SUNY Binghamton. I can guarantee you, it probably had more to do with graduate school, where I was studying health related, IG: 26:13 Right, of course, of course. PN: 26:17 So that is how I got to do what I do. And I am not retired. I still do it, and that is- IG: 26:25 How did you trust your instincts? You know you said that you kind of none of it was planned, but everything was related. So how did you trust that your decision making in your career- PN: 26:42 Blind? IG: 26:43 -blind trust, or just you have a certain comfort for taking risks. PN: 26:48 Yeah, at that time, I certainly left a very good job at this lifeline system with base salary and bonuses and a company car, and took a job where I had to pay for myself to move with no salary, no benefits, no nothing. I do not know if it was out of my mind, but I could afford to do it. I was single. I could take a risk. I may not have even realized the risk. It worked out. It worked out fine. Not everyone can do that. A lot of people need to know that they have a weekly paycheck, I am just willing to live with it. IG: 27:26 Well, you know, for-for a somebody who is considering becoming an entrepreneur, as you, you have been for the last 30 years, what are some of the important qualities and things that you need to consider? You know, from your experience, that are most valuable for this. You said that you know you have to be comfortable without you know, having you know, an expected paycheck, or regular paycheck, regular benefits. I mean, what are some of the but what are some of the personal qualities that you think well, are needed? PN: 28:12 You have to be- have some self confidence that you can do it. So, if you are an electrical engineer, you have to be pretty sure that you are a creative electrical engineer. If you are your standard electrical engineer, you are not going to become a salesman, and vice versa. So, it has to be in a milieu in which you have already had some success. So, in the training milieu, when I was working at that hospital, and then in the sales milieu, when I worked for lifeline, and earlier in the field service and customer training milieu, I was successful. Having grown up in a retail business, which I mentioned earlier, starting in high school, I would work like summer or Christmas season or something, selling clothing, so the personal aspects of relating to people and presenting a product or a service, and explaining it, selling it, looking at why it might be valuable, it might not for someone, and if some and I will probably part of why I am successful at what I do is what I currently do. If the job is not right for someone, I will say, "You know what, this may not be the best thing for you." And taking a longer view of what-what works for people, and hopefully that honesty comes back to help you and not haunt you. IG: 29:34 How do you recruit people? Do you look on LinkedIn, or do people come to you? Or what happens. PN: 29:40 Keep going, all of the above. IG: 29:42 All of the above. A recruiter, PN: 29:45 Social media- IG: 29:46 Social media. Connections. PN: 29:47 [crosstalk] Forever, yeah, a lot, a lot of connections. In fact, I am going to a meeting this evening of a medical devices group, which is mostly engineers, and there will be a speaker talk. Talking about the latest whiz bang technology and why it works, why it does not discover about it. So being out and about and staying interested in current in the industry in which I am. IG: 30:11 I understood. PN: 30:11 So, if you are back to an entrepreneur, I am not sure in the world, because I have not started a company, I am the sole employee. I did not need to go to bankers to get investment money or venture capitalism, none of that. But, you know, not everyone could do it as I forget and you just reminded me, part of it is make sure if you have a good year, you do not spend like you had a good year, because if you have a bad year, you may need a nest egg and do not spend like a drunken sailor. IG: 30:48 Yeah, that is good advice [laughs] for anyone. So-so you know this is your career path, and you mentioned that you have a daughter, and tell us, you know, a little bit about your family. PN: 31:09 I got married late in my late to mid-40s, first time, and my wife and I, within a year, had a kid, which was almost surprising. We are both old, biological standpoint, my daughter's 19. She is a sophomore, and following the family tradition, she also transferred schools. She started out at Bryn Mawr, spent a year for a variety of reasons. It was not a great fit, took a semester off, and now is quite local at Brandeis, and is studying public health. Was so interesting to me things that were interesting to me in college. And she is interested in Planned Parenthood and women's sociology, women's health care, that kind of thing. And it happens to be really the right place for it. It is a very strong program. There is social policy, health policy and all that. So, I have got this 19-year-old daughter, my wife also had transferred from one college, to another [Irene laughs] and they are the two of them are right now in New York, going to Broadway shows. [crosstalk] Yeah. IG: 32:25 Do you- what are some of your- have you kept up with your interest in literature? Have you- PN: 32:31 Yeah-yeah to [crosstalk] some degree IG: 32:33 [inaudible] hobbies- PN: 32:35 As far as reading--I am a bigger newspaper reader than the book reader. Although I am in actually right now, for the first time, I am in two book clubs. My wife and I are in a book club together, and then the local library has a quote guys book club, and that is been great. I love it. [inaudible] I know, yeah, we might be 15, 10, to 15 people. IG: 32:59 That is quite a number. PN: 33:01 Maybe, yeah. And depending on the book, more people come and the librarian is a guy, which is also somewhat rare, I think. IG: 33:08 Yeah. PN: 33:10 It is a neighboring town, Errington, and it is great. I do not know these people outside of the group, but we all really enjoy it. There is a man do not have a lot of these outlets. I am not a sports guy. I do not go to a bar and watch a football game. I pay not to, in fact. So that is a social outlet. I do not care about this bonding about sports. So, this is great. That is a variety of books. There are librarians who find it interesting. IG: 33:41 Yes, what are some of the books that you have [crosstalk] PN: 33:44 It is a range. Some of them are we just read the memoir of South African comedian- IG: 33:56 Coitzi. Coitzi? PN: 33:58 No, he is on American TV. Oh, I love the guy. It will come back to me. I forgot. IG: 34:04 Yeah. PN: 34:05 Scary. [laughs] IG: 34:08 It will not come back in five minutes. PN: 34:09 Trevor Noah. IG: 34:10 Oh, I see that is right. Oh, yes, really, course. PN: 34:13 You have not read it. IG: 34:13 Yeah. PN: 34:14 Listen to it on books on tape. IG: 34:15 I have seen him on TV. PN: 34:16 It is wonderful to listen to. IG: 34:18 Yeah. PN: 34:18 More than even read because he is- does the reading. IG: 34:21 He does the reading as well. I actually, I love books on tape. PN: 34:24 This is, this is a great one so that we have occasional military history, although that is not a focus. Novels, just a range of things, one-one book. One of the best books was a book called The Boys in the Boat. Which Have you heard of that huge bestseller about the sport of rowing crew, but it is historical, because it talks about the 1936 Olympics in Germany? IG: 34:54 Yes, of course. PN: 34:55 So that was very interesting book. Terrific book. And I suggested a book. It was sort of my turn to suggest a book, I think, for July, called the Fish that Ate the Whale, about the- this immigrant who started pedaling bananas, and that was enabled because of telegraph its whole story wound up from buying essentially damaged goods bananas that were discounted because they were about to be too ripe, wound up as the president of United Fruit Company, which owned half of Central America. Very interesting story. Yeah, fascinating. So that is one I suggested. It will be in a couple of months. And then the one we Thursday, I guess that is tomorrow. Is the book club, and it is a book. It is upstairs, hopefully, I better all go up and get it, so just a variety of books. And that is- that is been- IG: 35:55 That is wonderful because, that is wonderful because not I think it is not, not everyone really gives time to reading. Not everybody gives time into- do you think that you know there, that you know this love of literature, clearly, you have a love and interest? Do you think that there is any connection between the literature- PN: 36:22 Come to think of it, those are the classes I remember. IG: 36:25 Yes-yes. PN: 36:26 Absolutely. In fact, if this guy had answered the phone, I was going to tell him that this retired professor become a college president. And my wife is an influence on me and my daughter too. They are speed readers. They read an enormous amount. I have never seen anything like it. My parents were readers, so it was not- IG: 36:43 It is part of your family. PN: 36:45 It is part of it. My father was a big reader, and in the newspapers which my wife does not read, so she reads more books I am interested in. I read three papers. The newspapers are practically going out of business, except for people like me, which is bad, because I am not young, you know, and they are the only thing that keeps the government honest at this point, you know, with investigative journalism. IG: 37:10 Yeah, I agree. I agree. And so-so, you know- PN: 37:17 I am going to run and get- IG: 37:20 So, we are back to talking with Philip Nachman, and we are going to talk a little bit about the political climate, the political issues that were predominant in your college experience. PN: 37:37 The Vietnam War was key, and it was raging still. Uh, in my case, I was in the first cohort of people who were, quote, eligible for the draft lottery, which was a somewhat more fair way of drafting people. And I had the distinction of being number five in the draft lottery. You do not want to be five, you want to be 360 so while I was in your while I was in Binghamton, I was called up for physical because I had such a low number, and I had to take the bus to Syracuse, where there was an Army induction center. I thought I thought I would get out for some physical reasons, but a lot of other people on that trip were, I am sure, sick with anxiety. So, I went to the physical, took the Greyhound, and I wound up getting what is called a 4f of physical deferment. So, I did not have to go, but I was considering my options. I was not interested in being shot at by the Vietnamese or shooting them, because, frankly, I did not care about them. They did not do nothing to me. I did not need to do nothing to them, right? But the times were roiling with Vietnam protests. Certainly, I am not sure how much on the campus. I kind of do not remember that, but it was, you know, complete. Well, not the voc- the vocal students were more on the left than the right, but not everyone else, I am sure. I mean, it was a, it was a town in upstate New York, in the county I came from, was very Republican. That whole capital district was very Republican. And I am, I do not know what, what Binghamton's landscape was at the time in terms of national politics, but I am assuming it is somewhat conservative. I mean, upstate New York could be transplanted to the Midwest. It has got essentially nothing to do with metropolitan New York. IG: 39:33 A lot of America, I think. PN: 39:35 Yeah-yeah. IG: 39:39 So-so, you know, so you said you do not remember any protests. PN: 39:45 I am sure there were. IG: 39:46 But what about your friends? What-what was the general mood? PN: 39:51 Oh, the general mood was anti-Vietnam, anti-establishment. Long hair. Do not trust anyone over 30. I mean, this was 1970. You know, get stoned. IG: 40:04 What kind of music did you listen to? PN: 40:06 Grateful Dead. I think they actually, it was a famous concert at Binghamton. IG: 40:12 I think it is (19)68. PN: 40:15 I was not, I think it might, yeah, they were still, I did not, I was not there at the time, people were still talking about it. Leo Kottke, I remember going to one of his concerts. He is a fantastic 12 string guitarist. There were others. I went up to Cornell for a concert with some group Traffic. I think it was called. Yeah, something like that. IG: 40:33 Remember the Nixon impeachment, the trials. IG: 40:35 That was in (19)73 impeachment trials, were not they? IG: 40:41 Yes, yeah. PN: 40:43 And I think I already had, already I had already graduated, because, as I recall, that was the fall of (19)73 and I graduated. I took, I was on the five-year plan because I had transferred. And actually, my second semester in Binghamton, I really was not quite sure what I was that I wanted to be there all the time. And through this major that I created, I petitioned for an independent study on the American Crafts movement, which was a hippie movement. At the time, people were dropping out, moving to Vermont or somewhere, and making pottery or building furniture. And there was an anthropology professor, Daniella Weinberg. I think her name is, who I asked if she would be my sponsor on this because I was looking at it from sort of an anthropological perspective or a sociological perspective with no brilliant framework, I will have you know, but so I literally hitchhiked around New England, talking to American kids who were, quote, American craftsmen. I wound up living for a while in a commune in the Berkshires. I was hitchhiking, and someone picked me up and going around to different crafts people. It was a very interesting semester. I mean, literally, I was hitchhiking. [crosstalk] You could do that. IG: 42:01 It was safe to do it when- PN: 42:02 It was-was for me. IG: 42:06 Yes-yes. PN: 42:07 So, it did not even occur to me that was no nothing, no big deal. So, I did that. IG: 42:13 Was it like living on a commune as part of your thesis experiment? It was a thesis or? PN: 42:19 Just started. I read to write a paper. I see, I do not know where the paper so, so it was probably only four credits, so I did not get the 16 credits, or whatever a semester is worth. So, I wound up graduating in (19)73 not in (19)72 I got out of high school in (19)68 if I had gone straight through. And that was fine. So, I was in no hurry to be an adult anyway. So that worked out perfectly, which was not uncommon in those days. I mean, IG: 42:51 To prolong your [crosstalk] PN: 42:52 To prolong your, prolong your adolescence. It was not my education. So, yeah, I am clear on that again, if I were a pre-med major or an engineering major, I would want to keep going. I would not be wandering around as much. So- IG: 43:11 So, what did you learn about this experience? Your anthropological study? PN: 43:15 Well, the professor had me read de Tocqueville on America having to do with American the American spirit and democracy, which was a big experiment when de Tocqueville wrote that a total experiment. When did you write it? 1789, or something like that? Well, what was funny about it is, I wound up in New Hampshire, standing in someone's yard. People would just invite you to stay and this so I met some guy who forgot if there was a potter or whatever it was. His father was a producer on the Today Show in Manhattan. PN: 43:52 No-no. [crosstalk] become- PN: 43:53 Back then this kid's father, he dropped out of college to do this. His father was a producer on the Today Show. So, it is just kind of not that the father's famous, but it is just sort of funny. Here are these middle class, or probably upper middle class, or beyond, in his case, who are dropping out, not going the straight and narrow, not working for IBM as a salesman, but doing this and that. Those were the times. Those exactly what the times were, I do not know that it directly had to do with Vietnam, but it did have to do with, I think, not being all that impressed or interested in just following the normal course of events. Because look what it got us. PN: 44:18 Exactly, breaking cultural norms and- PN: 44:40 That was the norm, was to break a cultural norm. So, in fact, the cultural norm was to have long hair, to smoke pot, to maybe have an organic garden. That was in that school. That was the norm. It would not have been the norm at other schools, perhaps, but on that ilk, in that era, that. You know, Buffalo was the same. IG: 45:01 So, you remember watching the American family? PN: 45:06 Yes, in fact, one of my professors actually a guy named Richard, Richard Young [James Young], who was a political science professor at Binghamton, that was our that was the centerpiece of our class, was good for remembering an American family. It was a screwed-up family. The kid- IG: 45:25 Very interesting. PN: 45:26 Oh, very interesting. I mean, pretty rare. One-one of the kids came out as gay, which was rare with the father. You know, the father, the mother accepted it. I am not sure the father did. The parents got divorced, as you remember, the father sold mining equipment to Australian mining places. So Young- that was sort of interesting, too. I had forgotten about that class looking at the structure of American society, and it was some would say it was dissolution. I mean, that family became dissolved. I have forgotten about his siblings. I think he was the eldest. He had a younger sister. I do not remember. I think there were three. Think there were three, three kids, but yeah, that was really of that era. And you know, the teachers, Young and Starobin, they may have been radicals, but academically, you could not just hand in some crummy paper. They were, they were serious about their work. IG: 46:26 Have you read their scholarship afterwards? Or, you know, they were, they producing scholarship of this period. PN: 46:34 They were young guys. They were very young. That might have been the first. They were in their early 30s, and then Young, I do not know whatever happened to him, but I later lived in Berkeley and looked him up. He was living in Palo Alto, and we went out for dinner or something, because he was a young guy, still sort of related. You know, I thought I related to him because he was only eight years older than I was, or something like that. I tend to sort of remember people and hold on to them. And there was a TA in might have been in an American literature class. I am not sure which one literature of the American city with a guy named Milton Kessler, wonderful guy who he also had an influence on me. In a TA in one of the literature courses. Later went on to he was doing his PhD. He wound up having a career in prep schools, which was sort of when you cannot get a job in academia. You do that. So, if you scratch the surface of any fancy prep school or all these PhDs. And then I about 10 years ago, I looked him up. We had nice conversation, and he was interesting because of an assignment he gave us. I had never heard of this assignment. Compare the same work as literature. I think it was this and in its movie form or something, that I found the most creative thing in the world. I had never heard of such a thing. PN: 48:00 Yeah, it was very creative. I thought he was a terrific young teacher. So, I had, I was happy with my professors as I recall, at least the ones I recall. Let us put it that way, which is good. I do not want to think of the bums. I am thinking of the ones that I that I enjoyed. And there was a certain amount of academic freedom to be able to petition this academic board and do this independent study, you know, the create your own major, and then even to take that semester off and get a sponsor, it worked out. I am sure my parents were worried sick. It worked out. PN: 48:00 At the time, it was probably [crosstalk] IG: 48:36 And, you know, and yet, over time you-you and I think that people of your generation return to very establishment type of jobs well after this, this period of great freedom and experimentation- PN: 48:55 Yeah-yeah. Well, you know, some may have become artists if there were artists to begin with, which that helps. Some you know one guy my roommate is a real estate developer in California, I think, pretty successful. Another one of these guys that shared an apartment with me became a physician, so they may have been a little more focused than I. so yeah. I mean, people ultimately need to make a living, of course, and some people- IG: 49:30 So, you know, from the vantage point of now, how do you look back on that period of, you know, breaking norms and going to communes and exploring, and this period of great experimentation [crosstalk] PN: 49:48 Personally, for me, for me, personally, it was fun and it was not very taxing, which might have been part of why I wanted to do it. But when I think back on it, there was a tremendous amount of social disorganization and dismay. Do not do not trust your elders. Look at going back to Vietnam. It was terrible. I mean, it was absolutely horrendous. What was going on and it largely kids in college were personally untouched, because it was a poor person's war. If you were in college, you got a deferment. If you knew someone, you got in the National Guard, as did my as did my older brother, because my father knew somebody. So, as I think of my high school class, and I was probably at a class of 400 none of my friends were in the army. When I look at the yearbook, or there is a like a website for my high school, and I see who was in the army and who was not, it was not the kids whose parents were college educated. No shock, you know, to me. So, it was not an equitable war. In a sense, there was a complete waste of life, terrible waste of life. And people knew that, and that is why all this social foment. Yeah, I do remember a march downtown in Binghamton, some anti-war March. IG: 51:11 But how do you think, for example, your generation, because of that experience, was different from your parents' generation? You probably looked at the world very differently. PN: 51:20 Oh, absolutely. My father was in the army, in the US Army, when I was raving and ranting about the Vietnam War once, and this and that. And he said, you know, how do we put it? Some people are patriots. He was not necessarily talking about himself, but he was saying, do not be so judgmental, you know. And he knew what it was to leave a wife and go in the army, drafted at age 34 which was not fun to be in basic training when you are 34 and everyone else is 18. He is already out of college 10 years. You know, it was, he did not get hurt or anything, but it was certainly a sacrifice. And he knew plenty of people in his company that died, or just people who sacrificed. So, he looked at it differently, even though he was a lifelong Democrat, I do not know what he felt about the Vietnam War. Probably in the end, he got disgusted by it, as most people who were not complete apologists wound up doing as the truth came out. I do not think we ever had heated discussions. I would rave and write naively, and this was a conservative Republican town I grew up in, so it certainly affected the air I did not know at Binghamton, I did not know necessarily, any veterans who may have come back. One thing that absolutely has stuck in my mind, when I was at Hofstra, there was a guy on my floor who was a veteran, and he was there on the GI plan, probably. So, he was older and more, certainly more mature and older than these freshmen. He was stuck with on us, poor guy, and we were playing in the hallway. We were throwing a football or pitch and catch or something, and someone missed. His door was open. He was at literally the end of the hall. The ball went into his room. He ducked the one under his desk like a grenade. I mean, I could practically cry now, when I think about it, it was so traumatic. Was just a baseball and but can you [crosstalk] traumatic this- IG: 53:32 This treated PTSD. PN: 53:34 Yeah, which I never asked him about his experience with this poor guy. I am thinking, what something I never lived through. It is what I do not know about. I am thinking, wow, I think he was rattled. IG: 53:47 Right. I think that studies of PTSD came to light because of the Vietnam War. PN: 53:52 Yeah. I mean, think of the drug addiction and alcoholism that came out of it. I mean, World War Two had its trauma on people too, but there were not drugs to addict, generally, other than booze, you know? I hope that guy is okay. So, I did not really know many people who lived through that, necessarily. IG: 54:19 It is in some way you are saying that, you know, do not be judgmental, because the experience of even the people that you are well, you are not opposing them, but you know they are participants in a movement that you oppose. PN: 54:20 Yeah. IG: 54:23 You know that their-their experience is- PN: 54:28 But I do not know that I was that mature in that time. [crosstalk] I would have, would I have quote, defaced the flag? Probably not. It is just a difficult time. And Binghamton was very lefty. So those who were, quote, pro war. I did not talk. I did not know about it that, you know, they probably kept, maybe they kept a low profile. I do not know. I did not get involved in it, you know, I did not get involved with them. I do not know. I was not terribly political. I mean, I knew I, you know I would vote, and I know how I voted, and all of that. I had my feelings, but I was not marching, or I probably did once or twice, but it was not a big part of my life. IG: 55:30 And throughout your life, you-you were not political. I mean- PN: 55:36 I was, oh, I am very, I am very aware of current events. I always vote. I think once in my life, I did not and felt terrible about it because I missed a date or something. I was American Studies major to not, of course, care about it would be remarkable to me. You know, in the current climate, I am disgusted. And actually, I have with my wife's urging, she is, she is, she thinks more than I do, that mass protest movements have an effect. So that we went to the anti-gun rally two weeks ago. I think it was in Boston. It was all over the country. It went to the women's rally and all that. And some of it, I think, is, I do not know how useful it is, especially in this state, because this state always votes to the left and the legislators and all that. So, it is like, who are you complaining to complain in Arizona or in western Pennsylvania? I do not know what it means here, you know? Yeah, it is disheartening. I mean, it is sort of like the Nixon era in a way, with the corruption and the cynicism on the part of the people in power. IG: 56:43 But there are probably lessons from, you know, I am sensitive about the time that I have been keeping you but I think that, you know, the (19)60s have something to teach this generation about, social organizing, protest, do not you think? PN: 57:01 Would hope, well, it shows that it can make a difference. Vietnam eventually stopped huge marches. Johnson was in the White House covering his ears because he had to literally covering his ears getting sick over it. Yeah, it is going to have an effect. And maybe, maybe these teenagers who have organized the anti-gun rally will have an effect. I certainly hope so. The really small number of-of fundamentalist Christians and NRA members have been hijacked from it being a sportsman's club that taught about gun safety to being a shell for an industry, it is disgusting. So maybe these kids will have an effect. I certainly hope so. IG: 57:46 I hope so too. PN: 57:47 Yeah. IG: 57:52 Any-any concluding remarks that you have, any-any-any advice that you have for you know, students, young people listening to this interview and thinking of what to do with their lives and how to plan their careers. PN: 58:09 Well, if you do not know what you what you want to do, it is hard to plan. If you do know what you want to do and you are definitely going to go to graduate school, yeah, study hard and get into the grad school of your choice. But if you are not that focused necessarily on a technical career, which is what rolls the roost right now, take courses out of your comfort zone. Take an art history class, take a music appreciation class, take something that you will live with, sort of like play a lifelong sport, not football, learn tennis. You know that if it is a liberal arts education, think of what that means and use it because you can enjoy it for the rest of your life. I mean, sure, get a career. Figure out how to make a living, become a technical expert, if that is what you want to be on something or other, or be a high school English teacher, if that is what float you know floats your boat, no question. Or librarian or a development officer. So, advice would be, take advantage if you are at a. at a Binghamton or any other liberal arts school, take advantage of the fact that it is a broad menu, and if there is a faculty member that you admire go to their office hours, they will appreciate it. You may learn something. They may help you get out of your locked out car like Robert Starobin [inaudible]. One thing I failed to remember. I did not forget it; you did not ask. I had an interesting experience in that I, quite coincidentally, wound up renting an old farm on the top of Bun Hill Road, if you know where that is, right. I was having my car fixed at some gas station on closer to downtown. And I needed a ride back to the school. Some lady was getting gas, and she was going to be heading back toward the campus. And I said, "Are you going by the school?" And she said, "Yeah." I said, "Can I have a ride?" This woman gave me a ride in those days people would do. And we chatted a bit. And she was living on this old farm that she said. I said, "Oh, that sounds really nice." She said, "Well, my husband and I are moving. Do not say anything to the landlord, but maybe you would like to rent it." So, I rented this farm. Old place was not being farmed, but this place went literally on the top of Bun Hill Road with a lot of acreage, broken down, old farmhouse for $100 a month, three-bedroom, three-bedroom place, and found met some guy in the parking lot who is my friend to this day, who said, "Yeah, that sounds like fun, yeah, why do not we do that together?" And his was common at the time. He had just gotten back from traveling in the Middle East, people used to go to go through Europe with a backpack. And he said, "You know, I would like to get goats. I saw a lot of goats in Lebanon." I said, "All right, let us get goats." So, we did dairy goats. We had three or four goats, and it was fun. Then we had an organic garden, and got credit for it. You could pull this act. There was a geography, geography professor, Ed Van Derval [Joseph VanRiper]. I think his name was something like that. He was willing to if we took, kept the journal and took notes, we got four credits crazy on raising, on having an organic farm. So, the guy down the road had a plow, and we- was a big enough plot that we had. We paid him to plow it for us, and we grew stuff. And we had this organic, I would call it a farm. We had a garden, a large garden, and that was fun. And the property still had some plum trees that were bearing fruit, and there were- IG: 1:01:55 How wonderful. PN: 1:01:56 And there were apple trees all over the place. I collected apples and brought them to the cider mill and Endicott and had them pressed and then sold them on the campus. IG: 1:02:07 It was fun. So, you were part of this. PN: 1:02:10 I was part of the hippie [crosstalk] IG: 1:02:10 But part of, you know, maker, I do not know that it was maker is now. PN: 1:02:18 That is now, that is making. IG: 1:02:20 Yeah, sort of, you know, yeah, back to the line. PN: 1:02:24 It is back to the land thing. IG: 1:02:25 And but that you got credit for this at college. IG: 1:02:28 Yeah, it is pretty amazing at a legitimate college and all that. So, it goes back to that American Studies thing I did when I was hitchhiking around talking to craftsmen and all that, that was really a back to the land movement. I so to an extent, while in college, I did that, actually, I have a picture to show you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Philip Nachman Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni working in the medical industry; Harpur College – Alumni CEOs; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Nachman, Philip ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Philip is owner of his Watertown, Mass.-based business, Nachman BioMedical, Medical Industry Exec Search, a recruiting firm for selling medical devices. At Harpur College, Philip created his own major in American studies, which included a class in Jewish-American literature. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Phil Nachman.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-04-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 62:50 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ec06c8068a4b705502d81bf008e3e951.jpg 961e592c3e3f6dc018ab2ac2de333a70 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/98c7655a604a1a4f6ec3b61a27d317fc.mp3 1cc853ed93ce607c36fb98950fc0c23c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rachel Robinson, 1922- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Rachel Robinson is a former professor, nurse, philanthropist, civil rights activist, and the wife of Jackie Robinson. Robinson attended the University of California and she graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Nursing. Additionally, she received several awards for her hard work among the population of black people in the world.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Rachel Robinson is a former professor, nurse, philanthropist, civil rights activist, and the wife of Jackie Robinson. Robinson attended the University of California and she graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Nursing. Additionally, she received several awards for her hard work among the population of Black people in the world.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 62:23 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;African American; Student-athletes; Segregation; Jackie Robinson; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; NAACP; Birmingham Church Bombing; Baseball; The Dodgers; Black Student Union(BSU).&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:515,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:16370588},&quot;12&quot;:0}">African American; Student-athletes; Segregation; Jackie Robinson; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; NAACP; Birmingham Church Bombing; Baseball; The Dodgers; Black Student Union(BSU).</span> Subject LCSH College teachers; Nurses; Philanthropists—United States; Civil rights workers; Athletes' spouses; Robinson, Jackie, 1919-1972; Robinson, Rachel, 1922--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rachel Robinson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robinson, Rachel, 1922- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource College teachers; Nurses; Philanthropists—United States; Civil rights workers; Athletes' spouses; Robinson, Jackie, 1919-1972; Robinson, Rachel, 1922--Interviews Description An account of the resource Rachel Robinson is a former professor, nurse, philanthropist, civil rights activist, and the wife of Jackie Robinson. Robinson attended the University of California and she graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Nursing. Additionally, she received several awards for her hard work among the population of Black people in the world. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.99 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 62:23