88 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e591e68f3017126d87d97fd04f89121a.jpg 97fde756dd09051e58bc61e66f9f49e4 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e22d01c3f515b0dc64b19daec0b0c4ac.MP3 26c0ce5b3a38949cee3ec62fe2c8eda8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 8/7/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Edie Meeks Biographical Text Edie Meeks grew up in Minneapolis, Minnesota along with an older sister and two younger brothers. She joined the Army Nurse Corps (ANC) in early 1968 and enlisted as a nurse in Saigon during the Vietnam War. Meeks left the ANC in 1970 and began her work in the operating room, which she continues to this day in the Northern Westchester Hospital of Mt. Kisco, New York. She graduated from St. Mary's school of nursing in Rochester, Minnesota. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:58:02 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Nursing; Vietnam War; Anti War Movement; Saigon; Women's Memorial; 1960s; 1970s; Boomer generation Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Edie Meeks Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Shah Islam Date of interview: 7 August 2019 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:01 Yep, we are all set. EM: 00:04 Okay. SM: 00:05 All right. First of all, thank you very much for agreeing to do this. This is oral history with Edie Meeks. Edie, the first question I want to ask you is, could you tell us about your background, where you grew up? Some of the early influences in your life, your family background, your schooling and high school, college before you became a nurse? EM: 00:27 Okay, I grew up in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And I am one of four children. My other— older sister and two younger brothers. And I went to Catholic schools for 15 years. For grade school, high school and nursing school, which was St. Mary's School of Nursing in Rochester, Minnesota. SM: 00:51 Okay. Wow. And how did you choose nursing? For your career? Is there a family history of nursing? EM: 01:00 There is actually no medical family history at all. But I knew from the littlest of girls that I was going to be a nurse. And I always asked for the nurse’s kit in our Christmas from Santa. SM: 01:15 Yes. EM: 01:16 And for the doc— not even the doctor’s kits, just the nurse’s kits. But I always knew— it was either that or a roller derby star. And I figured probably I would not do that. So, I became a nurse instead. I have always wanted to be a nurse and I still love nursing. SM: 01:34 Are you still nursing? EM: 01:36 Yes, I am two days a week in the operating room. SM: 01:38 Wow. That is amazing. Yeah. EM: 01:40 And mainly because I love it. You know, it is really, you… stay current with everything that is going on. Now they have robots and all these other things, and it keeps your sharp. SM: 01:52 Yeah, very good. How did you end up as a nurse in Vietnam? Did you volunteer? Did you, did they send you, was your commitment to serve for so many years? And did you have any say where you were shipped once you got there? EM: 02:09 I was… I enlisted. And I did that because my brother Tom had been drafted. And it was the beginning of… March beginning. But there was rumblings about antiwar and all that. And I did not know whether it was good or bad. So, I just decided that, you know, if my brother Tom got hurt, I wanted to be sure somebody was over there that wanted to be over there. And so, I enlisted, but then he said, because he was a Marine, he said, Edie, the Navy takes care of the Marines. And I had enlisted in the Army. So, forget that. I think he was relieved, though, that he were not his sister would not be, you know, offering the same type of service that he was. And so— and when you enlisted, because all of the nurses did. And at the time that I went over all of the nurses volunteered. So, we were just, you know, got— we were going to do our part. SM: 03:17 So, all the nurses when they got there did not exactly know where they were going to end up. In terms of the medical facility— EM: 03:25 No, no when you got— when you got there, you were assigned to where you were going. SM: 03:29 Okay, very good. EM: 03:30 And the— when I arrived, I had been dating a guy at Fort Ord. And he, he had asked the Chief Nurse if I can be stationed in Saigon where he was. And so, when he— when I arrived, he said oh, you are going to be in Saigon, because Captain Meeks was. And I thought, what? Yeah, I was kind of forward, but anyway. And when I stayed in Saigon at Third Field Hospital, for six months, in the intensive care unit. And then I found that, actually, I broke up with Bill because, Bill Meeks, because it was too schizophrenic. I mean, you work 12 hours a day, six days a week. And you were taking care of these really horribly injured guys. And then you were supposed to go out to dinner and have small talk. And at the time, Saigon still had four-star hospitals. I mean, [inaudible] restaurant. So, you could go to the top of, you know, the Continental Hotel and, and all of these fancy restaurants. And it was like, I cannot do that after 12 hours of taking care of these guys, you know, from the field. So, I just told him, I could not see him anymore, that you became so tight with the unit that you worked with. But it just seemed bizarre going out. SM: 05:07 Right. One of the things I have always thought about for any soldier or nurse or anyone that went to Vietnam and came back, could you— could you describe your weeks leading up to your travel to Vietnam? What was going through your mind? Were you aware of the conditions that you might be facing once you arrived there? EM: 05:29 I do not think anyone was aware of the conditions you would be facing. Or the injuries. I mean, I had done… that I— did not go right out of nursing school, I had gone to North Central British Columbia to a 46-bed hospital there and worked for a little over a year. And then I went down to California and worked there for a few months. And that was when I decided I was going to join the army. And so, I had worked emergency rooms, and, you know, serious stuff. And I thought I could handle anything. But when I got over there, these guys were so young. And they were just blown to bits. SM: 06:16 Right. EM: 06:18 And it took me years to figure out what, what was out of kilter. It was, because when, in the emergency room, everything makes sense. You know, a big fat guy comes in with a heart attack or kid without a helmet has a head injury and, you know, falling out of a tree to have a broken bone. All of these things made sense. Whereas over there, these were perfectly healthy guys that were being loaned the best. And it just did not make sense at all. SM: 06:51 When you arrived— EM: 06:53 [inaudible] coming— but go ahead. SM: 06:55 When you arrived in Vietnam, you are not— you have seen in women, probably in movies, and I have read in books about what it was like when you first got off the plane. First time ever in Vietnam, the… the environment, the heat, did you feel that? EM: 07:14 Actually, no, it just may not seem strange, but I just talked to a lot of people. But in getting off the plane, the only thing I can say is that the Earth felt so negative, so injured. Just, just the ground under which everybody was walking. And I bet that was exactly what I felt. Was that the earth was hurting over there. And, but I— and I really had no idea what I was getting into. And I said yes, I will do intensive care. And they said, great. And you— really none of the nurses really knew what they were getting into over there. SM: 08:04 What kind of medical unit or hospital did you work in. Real emergency room only? Or were— and were their several— EM: 08:12 So, I did intensive… intensive care, that is what I did, which is different from emergency room SM: 08:16 Right. EM: 08:18 That is after they go to surgery. And they come back, and we have to stabilize them, and then either they are sent to a ward, or they are sent to Japan. And… sometimes we would have to stabilize them before they went to surgery, if they came in, really a wreck. So, it just depended on what we got. You know? SM: 08:41 The— when did you meet Diane Carlson Evans? Who became your hooch mate? And was that rate early on or halfway through your time there how— EM: 08:55 It was first week through. And what I found was that you did not go over as a unit, a hospital unit. People were inserted, you know, people would come and go, and you form these bonds with people and then maybe four months into your being there, they would leave. And I found that several of the people that I was closest with, were going to leave about, the seventh month that I was there, but see, I am going to leave first. You go someplace else, maybe it will be better someplace else. So, I said to them, I do not care where I go, I will just go someplace. And so, they sent me to play coup, which is in the central highlands. And Diane actually had been in country six months also and she was making a switch and we arrived on the same day as the 71st evac and play coup, and both being from Minnesota we formed a wonderful bonds right away. So that was nice and lived in the same home which— SM: 10:00 And your basically— your responsibilities were the same as nurses. EM: 10:08 What do you mean by that? We are nurses. SM: 10:10 Yeah. But I mean that emerg— not emergency room nurses, but the ones that are really— EM: 10:16 Oh, you mean that? Yeah, I did intensive care there. SM: 10:20 Yes-yes. That is what I was— What— this is kind of a general question. But people that will be listening to these things or, you know, learning about the war. And so, could you describe what a typical day would have been for a nurse in Vietnam? Number of hours you worked, you know, was it consistent wound— heavily wounded people? Just a typical day. EM: 10:50 We worked 12 hours a day, six days a week, and then— these— it was from seven in the morning till seven at night or seven at night till seven in the morning. And your workload varied. For instance, one night I worked, and the other gal who was supposed to be there, they usually had two RMS on its night, had not come back from R&R yet. I guess the plane got delayed or something. And so, we could manage the amount that we had in one side of intensive care. The other side was the recovery room. With the corpsman that I had; we could handle that. But then we heard that we were getting six guys. And they were all pretty severely wounded. So, we, you know, got ready. And I had to tell one corpsman that he had to take care of everybody over on the intensive care side, let me know if anything was going on that I needed to know about, that— that I was going to have to be available for the troops coming in. And so, we received four of those six. And one of them was the captain. And he had such severe abdominal pain that he just could not, we were trying to stabilize him before he went to surgery. And he just could not make it. He went into cardiac arrest and died. But what was interesting about that was the— as the evening went on, because we heard about this, maybe eight o'clock, nine o'clock at night, you know, one— every once in a while, the corpsman that worked there with Scott [inaudible]. How is it going? [inaudible] Oh, let me help out! Priests, and almost all of them were there working. Now a lot of them had worked before, you know. And here they were putting in until everything became stabilized enough, which was maybe one or two o'clock in the morning. And then he had to come to work the next morning. But this is what everybody did. We just did the most you could for these guys who were injured. SM: 13:13 The— how many nurses overall served in Vietnam between, when the whole period was that we were over there? EM: 13:21 I think it was between eight— eight— seven and eight— and eight thousand. I do not think the thing is that they did not keep track of them. Diane, you know, ask the Pentagon for the names of the nurses who served at— the Pentagon told her no women were over there. SM: 13:41 Oh my god. EM: 13:44 Right. So, they did not keep track of the women at all. I mean, our names might have been on the list, but we were not looked at as women. SM: 13:53 Oh, my goodness now. EM: 13:55 So, there were I think between, I think around 8000 who served in the war zone? In the army anyway. Yeah. SM: 14:06 We know that— I think there is there were nine that were killed that were— their names are on the wall. And did they keep track of safe for— nurses that were injured? You know, we talked about the 58,200 and some that had died in Vietnam that are on the wall. But there is no known really record of the number of people that were injured in the war with lifelong injuries, mental hit situations and so forth. Did they keep track of any of that with the nurses? EM: 14:38 No, I do not think many nurses were injured. I know that one of the nurses was killed when they were attacked, you know, with rockets. And I think her ward was hit directly and she was killed. SM: 14:56 That was Sharon Lane, I think. EM: 14:59 Yes, yeah. SM: 15:00 Yeah. EM: 15:00 Yeah. And— but the other— it was, you know, circumstances, like one of them was on a helicopter going someplace and it got caught in wire, and the helicopter crashed. And so— and-and for injuries, I have not really heard of any nurses that were injured, the keeping track of what happened to the nurses after, they [inaudible] did not even know what to do with the females that came back. I know that there were several who went in the (19)80s, early (19)80s, for help from the VA, and there was just no help to be had. So, they put them in men's group. And the women started taking care of the man, because that is what we do. And the women got sicker and sicker. Because they were not really taking care of themselves at all. Then they started being alerted that the woman— and the woman demanded too that they receive, you know, the same good services that the men got, and slowly to me has really turned around, especially now that there are so many female soldiers that are going to need help. Because the female is going to react differently no matter what you do, than the male. I mean, the two of them can shoot the same person. And inside, they are both going to react differently. So, they really need females to just females. Females talking to males does not do it. SM: 16:43 It leads right into my next question and why Diane created or worked hard to make sure the Women's Memorial became a reality. Why did it take so long for nurses to be recognized in the war? And I interviewed Diane a long time ago, and she came to our campus and her stories were unbelievable. But Diane's effort to create the Women's Memorial where she had to go before hearings in Washington and I heard some Congresswomen or people in politics, were saying kind of bad things to her. I mean, just your thoughts— you-you have known Diane, just the whole process of how long it took for nurses to be recognized. EM: 17:25 Right, and luckily enough, they had Diane as the, you know, leader, because she is just tenacious, I mean, she will not give up. And if you cannot get it this way, she will go around another way. You know and try that way. And she, I mean, I would not have had the patience that she did, but she just kept going forward and forward and forward. And slowly and slowly. And the thing is that the man raised, you know, millions for the wall in three years. And the women it took 10 years and a lot of that had to do with the fact that Jan Scruggs fought us tooth and nail. He did not want that Women's Memorial on the Mall at all. And so, he if he had given us any kind of a plus, you know, then I think it would have helped a lot. But he was so anti that memorial. And even after it was built, he was anti that memorial. SM: 18:36 Was it just him or the people that worked with him too? EM: 18:40 I think he surrounded himself with people that were like minded. SM: 18:44 Because I know there was Jack Wheeler, who was a power broker too. He raised funds. Sadly, he was murdered in Wilmington, Delaware about 10 years ago, but— EM: 18:56 Oh my gosh! SM: 18:57 But he— I do not know if you knew that. EM: 18:59 No! SM: 19:00 Yeah, he is passed. He was— it is a long story. But, you know, he was the guy that raised a lot of the funds for the Vietnam Memorial, and, and he was really close to Jan. So, I do not know if he was that-that way as well. You know, you have known Diane, did she ever tell you the stories about her going before [inaudible] committees? EM: 19:24 Oh, yes. SM: 19:25 Yeah, I cannot believe— I saw one of them on YouTube. I could not believe how— I could not believe how they talked to her! EM: 19:32 I know. SM: 19:33 Could you— you-you have— you know, could you explain that? What was going on and how difficult it was for, not only to get the Women's Memorial off the ground and there might be the Jan Scruggs of the world that are against it, but what about those congress people? You know. EM: 19:51 Well, you know, it is interesting because back in the ‘80s, things were not different than they are now. And it was almost as if, this is-this is how I perceived what was going on, was that men were the heroes, and women just cleaned up the men. And men always got the medals and always, you know, statues of heroes, heroes, heroes, heroes. And it was not until the Women's Memorial that I think fee— people really felt— the women themselves felt that they might be heroes. Because women have never been thought of like that in the United States. As heroes they might have been thought of as exceptional or— but not heroic. And the women who went over there were pretty heroic. Because they were not made to go over, they volunteered to go over. And they put up with a lot of stuff. And they did a lot of hard work, you know, seven days a week sometimes. And for me, I never felt— thought of myself as a hero until after the Women's Memorial. And my kids were saying— my-my daughter has, you know, when-when I went to Mount Holyoke to speak, it was the first time I had ever spoken about it. My daughter was going to Mount Holyoke and there was a fellow there who taught a course on Vietnam. And he would start his course by saying you women will never know what it is like to be a poor. Well, of course, my daughter is a little feminist, called me up. And he was-he was taking a course on the (19)60s. And she asked her professor, because they had eight hours on Vietnam, he— she asked her professor if I could come and speak. And the guy must have been really brave, because he said yes. And so, it was the first time I had ever spoken about it. And I went up, and my daughter said that there were maybe 70 young women there. My daughter stands up and she says, I want to introduce my mother Edie, me. She was a nurse in Vietnam, and I am so proud of her. And— well, of course, I almost collapsed. But to me, that was the first time anybody had said that. And it was later, is— the young woman came up. You are my hero. Mrs. Meeks. I was so surprised! Because my generation did not think of women as heroes. But her generation does. SM: 23:13 Yeah, that is, well that— EM: 23:14 That is what is good about the whole thing. SM: 23:17 Yeah, what you are saying really is the boomer generation did not look at women as heroes. EM: 23:22 Right! SM: 23:23 Yeah, and it is interesting, because it was the-the women's movement was happening during the time that— yeah well at least the boomers were very young at that age. But still, it is still well, that is-that is a tremendous revelation. And you know, I have been to the Women's Memorial so many times over the years. And I have heard all the testimonies from many of the soldiers who served over there and-and I— and I have heard the constant revelation that you are heroes. You are heroes to them. And it is-and it is, you know, why were not they saying that before the Women's Memorial was built? EM: 24:04 I think they did not know to say it. Again, the women were just supposed to clean up the mess. That is what they have done in every war. SM: 24:14 Right. EM: 24:15 The nurse [inaudible] the guys back to health or whatever, you know, whether it was the revolution or whatever it was. You know. SM: 24:23 Did you— EM: 24:24 And- SM: 24:25 Go ahead EM: 24:26 Go ahead! SM: 24:27 No, you go ahead, you can finish. EM: 24:30 But to me that-that is really what it was about was that they did not think of these women as being heroic. And the women did not think of themselves as being heroic. They just thought, oh this is my job. You know, I consider a lot of women heroes, who take care of the guys who come back from war. That is difficult. These guys have changed. They are not the same people who left. Just to deal with everything is really tough. SM: 25:08 When both you and Diane came home, even before the-the idea of a wall or a memorial being built, did you and Diane talk a lot after you returned from Vietnam about how all Vietnam vets, including the nurses who served in Vietnam were treated on your return by the American public and then we Diana's is set up many times you have to about you are not welcomed home, as well as most of the people who served on the battlefields is— what was hap— EM: 25:40 We never discussed it at all. In fact, it was interesting, because after I spoke at Mount Holyoke, I called Diane and I said, oh, I did this and this and this, and the other thing. She said, do you know— realize Edie that we have known each other 23 years, and we have never discussed Vietnam? And I said, oh my God, you are right! But we never did. SM: 26:07 Did-did was Diana, and— both you and Diane feeling that you were not welcomed home? Which was very common, right up till about— EM: 26:15 Oh yes, yeah. I mean you never told anyone that you-that you were in Vietnam. In fact, when the Women's Memorial was going to be dedicated, somebody newfound out that I was a Vietnam vet and put a blurb in the newspaper, the little local newspaper. And people would stop me in the Grand Union, which was the grocery store, the local grocery store where everybody meets. And— my God, Edie, I have known you for 20 years. I never knew you were a nurse over there! SM: 26:42 Oh, my God. EM: 26:43 So, you never told anybody. And one of the reasons was— I can remember, I was in the hospital working. And this patient said to me, I heard you were in Vietnam. What was it like? And I just had to turn around and leave. I mean, there is no sound, like, that tells anyone what it was like. So, it is almost impossible to explain in 30 seconds. So, you just did not talk about it at all. SM: 27:18 Did you feel that— you know this, that post-traumatic stress disorder was pretty common among nurses just like it was among the rest of the troops? EM: 27:28 Oh, absolutely. Yep. Absolutely. SM: 27:30 Yeah, and— EM: 27:33 They were seeing things that they never would have seen in the States. And they were-they were working with people, you know. And-and hours, and seeing wounds and being rocketed, and you know, just doing things that they never would do in the United States. SM: 27:55 Why was it so difficult for many of the people who claim they had it, to keep trying to prove it to Veterans Affairs that they had at— let me mention though, I go to the wall every year, as you well know, Memorial Day and Veterans Day, I have been going since (19)93. Have not missed— I have only missed one. That was President Barack Obama's visit, because they forced everybody to the back. I did not like all that. By the way, what did you think, I am diverting here, but what did you think of that memorial, or the Remembrance Day when President Obama was there? And I remember Diane had to walk from the back to go to the stage. Do you remember that? It was a very— EM: 28:42 I guess I do not. SM: 28:43 Yeah, that is only one I could not come because you had that— the security was so tight. And all the people that were— EM: 28:47 Oh yes, I can! She was not allowed to sit close. Right-right. SM: 28:50 Yeah, no, none of the vets were— EM: 28:51 The guy [inaudible] SM: 28:52 The vets were in the back and all the politicians were up in the front! EM: 28:56 I know. I know. That is what it is all about. SM: 29:00 Yeah. And it really got to me. But post-traumatic stress disorder, why did it take so long for the Veterans Affairs to recognize the validity of the claims made by our service— people who served in Vietnam, and I sat next to a person five years ago who came from Wash— state of Washington, and he said he is still trying to get— he is still trying to get claims because he has post-traumatic stress disorder, but he does not have the right numbers. They would go by certain numbers, and he says— and here it is— and some are still battling to be recognized that they have it. EM: 29:39 Yep. Yep. I think it is money. 100 percent of its money. It also has to do with— I can remember when I first sent in, because Diane was the one that taught me into sending in for disability. So, I sent in, and they gave me 10 percent for hearing or something like that. She said now you go for 30 percent, because you have to keep going, you have to keep going. So, the 30 percent, you have to write up this whole thing. And I get back, denied. [inaudible] you just poured your heart out, you know, about what happened over there. And you are sitting here thinking I bet whoever read this, or did not read, it, never served. You know, some civilian who has never served, is making a judgment about whether you deserve disability or not. And the thing about disability is, you just have to be tenacious, you have to keep at it and keep at it and keep at it. Which is too bad because it is— not only do you feel that you have PTSD from the war, but after that whole thing, you feel like you have PTSD because of the VA. SM: 31:03 Oh my gosh. EM: 31:06 Because you are so angry at those people, for not trusting you and believing you. SM: 31:14 Yeah, I remember going to a hearing when I first moved from California, and Bob Edgar, the former congressman, was-was he was only a two-term congressman. But the fact is that he was really involved in this particular issue. And I got to know the Vietnam vets from Penn's Landing here in Philadelphia, they are building the wall. He said, go to the meetings, I just went to the meetings. And he was pleading the case that he was trying to make a pass some sort of resolution in Washington, making sure that anybody who makes a claim for post-traumatic stress disorder gets medical coverage. And so, I heard the horror stories that all these veterans are telling about, you know, having it, claiming it and then having to prove that they had and so it is a-it is a long, long story. And I want to go into here something about that I think you have talked about many times, in— and those people who were very seriously wounded and many who were dying in the war nurses were right with them, in fact, in their arms many times and that you became— nurses oftentimes became the substitute moms. Because-because they have that here is a 19, 20-year-old male dying and… and he— they— they are talking— they want to see their mom and all this other stuff, could you talk about some a few of those experiences where that might have happened with you? EM: 32:43 I do not think it has so much happened with me, but by the time they got to the intensive care unit, they had been pre stabilized. Some of them did die, because their infections were so great, or the wounds were so great. And I can-I can remember them asking for mom, or— and you would just be there. You know. And you really tell them whatever they wanted to hear. You know. I am here, I love you. The whole thing. Because you figure, you know, if that was my son, or if it was my brother, that is what I would want. I can remember, at one point, this gal called me up and she said, I am a Vietnam veteran. I was a nurse over there. And I am doing my PhD on post-traumatic stress with women veterans. Would you be one of the people I interviewed? I said, Sure. So, she came up to my house. She lives in this city, New York City. And she came up to my house, in Garretson, a couple of times. And then the third time she came with the final thesis. And that was the time when she started talking about herself. She never talked about herself before. And I said is there anyone that you remember that you cannot get out of your head? And she said, I remember during test. This one young man who had been— they said that he was just so injured, they did not… could not waste the time operated on him, you know, would have taken too long, and they had too many other urgent cases to do. So, they pushed him to the side. And every time she passed him, he would say, is it my turn next? And she [inaudible] to take out, it will be just— not too long now. Not too long. And every time, she said, I always wondered if in doing that I prolonged his life. Because I gave him hope, because he did die. And I said to her, your mother, what would you want for your kid? You would want somebody to recognize them. And to be kind to them. And to love them by saying, your next, your next. And then he can just go to sleep quietly. So, it is that famous thing that-that stayed with you. SM: 35:43 Yeah, you spoke at the Vietnam Memorial this past Memorial Day. It was a fantastic presentation, number one. And number two, I think you mentioned about one particular soldier that had died, are there— you— that you had connected with some of them who had passed away? Could you-could you talk a little bit about maybe one or two of the-the soldiers that you will never forget? EM: 36:09 The one that-that kept bothering me when I was not paying attention to PS— PTSD or anything, but that would pop up in my head was this young man from Kansas, from a farm in Kansas. And he had a really bad abdominal wall that had a terrible infection, and we just could not get ahead of that infection. We did not have the antibiotics that we have today, for one thing. And you— If I remember really, he was nineteen. And he got a letter from his mom, and he asked me to read it. So, I did. And his mom was telling about his dad coming in from— it was in October. Hunting, [inaudible] cornfield with the family dog and… and I used to do that with my family down in my Uncle Albert’s farm in Southern Minnesota. And then the mom told me a little bit about what was happening in the community. And at the very end, she said, besides that she loved him, we are so proud of you, son. And like, three days later, he died. And the thing was that you could not tell the parents anything. You know, I would have loved to have written letters to some of these parents, and say your son was so heroic in the way he died. And, you know, such a good kid. But you could not write anybody. You were not allowed. SM: 37:44 Wow. When you returned home, did any of the… soldiers that you had help save or in intensive care, did they ever try to contact you to thank you for helping them? EM: 38:02 No, and I have a feeling that it is because most of them were pretty out of it when they were with us in the intensive care unit. You know, we were not a stabilizing force. And if you were really, really bad we would— you had your surgery, we stabilize you until you could be shipped to Japan. And then they would form relationships with those gals. You know that? The only one that I really remember that we heard from actually that wrote us a letter was a young man who came into the emergency area. And his heart had been nicked with a boarder shrapnel or something. And they often did ‘EM: up right there and fixed it and… then he came to us. He was with us for about two weeks. And he was there over Christmas. And then he was shipped to Japan. And he wrote us back from Walter Reed and he said I am doing fine. But that was the only one we ever heard from. I do not think a lot of them knew where they were, you know, because they were either, if they were really bad off, they had a lot of narcotics to keep the pain down. Or just— SM: 39:19 Well, that is kind of what— that is kind of what the Women's Memorial has done. Because it is brought many people to verify the experiences they had with nurses and to thank them. I have seen, you know, the programs you have in the morning and the afternoon, and it is… Over the years, there is just so many, and you see the connection between the nurse and the person that they have served, they waited on, helped. EM: 39:48 Right. SM: 39:49 And that-that— EM: 39:50 It also— It also helped me quite a bit. I remember one time I was down there, because I used to go every Memorial Day and Veterans Day, and I was down there to answer questions or talk to people. And [inaudible] had a patch over one arm. And it was his first time down at the wall and on this memorial, and… So, we started chatting, and he was from New Jersey and… and I— he said, well, where were you stationed? I said Third Field Hospital, he said, I went through there! Now, we did not have a neurosurgeon. So, if you had a head injury, you were shipped out right away. But they stabilized him in the emergency area, and then shipped him out to Japan, because he did have a head injury. And with a lot of head injuries, when you saw these guys, you think, I do not know if we are doing them a favor. But here was this fellow, he had lost his eye. But he had his own business, he has three girls, three daughters. You know, he lived a good life. And I said, thank you for being here. Because some of the patients that we had, I used to think, are we doing them a favor? And it is nice to see that those you know, we worked so hard for actually did have a good life. SM: 41:17 Good. Very good. That is, that is unbelievable. That is a great story. And I honestly, you were working these unbelievable hours, six days a week, 12, 12 hours? Where did you go for rest and relaxation? Did you have opportunities for— what was R&R to you? And how often were you allowed to have it. EM: 41:42 We had art, we were allowed two [inaudible]. And the first one I took with my roommate from Saigon. And we went to Hong Kong. Now this was toward the end of— I think it was the beginning of December that we went. And, you have to remember this is like five months with no shopping. SM: 42:09 Ha-ha, oh no! EM: 42:10 Honestly, you felt like throwing your money on the street and saying give me anything! 42:15 [laughter] EM: 42:25 [inaudible] really interesting. We had our hair done, you know, [inaudible], and bought presents for home, that kind of thing. The better one I took with Diane, and we went to Thailand, to Bangkok. And that was interesting because you take a boat up the river and see the— but again, it was so surreal that you would leave these guys who kept coming in and kept coming in, whether I was there or not, you know? And you go and vacation! And then you back! And I thought it must be even more bizarre for these guys who are in the field, who leave for R&R and then come back and then they are in the field again. You know, it is, it is such— it was such a bizarre thing. But interesting. I got to go to Hong Kong and Bangkok! So… SM: 43:22 Those are— with— now— remember I asked you a question how you felt that first time you got off the plane when you landed in Vietnam. And I am now asking the question of when you are leaving. When did you return— when-when did you return home? And could you describe your last few days what you were thinking in your final day, getting on the plane, and flying back? What were you thinking about? And how did it differ from your feelings when you arrived in Vietnam? EM: 43:56 Planning to leave, you almost felt like you needed to re-up for another year. Because you felt like you had not finished. I mean, you could not finish, you know. And you— I really had to make myself go home. But, in just in this last July, because I went home in July. And it was the 50th anniversary of the person landing on the moon. The night before I left Vietnam, they landed on the moon. And I happened to be in I think it was Cameron Bay waiting for the flight the next morning. Or wherever it was, I cannot even remember where it was that I flew out, but it was not the hospital. And somebody came out of the officer's mess and said oh, come you have to see this! They are landing on the moon! And I said why would I want to see that? That is nothing. Guys are dying over here. Why aren't people paying attention? To me, the landing on the Moon was nothing. And for years, I could not watch that. There was nothing. People should have been paying attention to all those young men that were dying. SM: 45:21 Yeah, that was 19— EM: 45:22 That was how I felt about it. SM: 45:24 That was 1969! EM: 45:26 Yeah, yeah, that is when I left. SM: 45:30 Wow. How long did it take for you to adjust back into society after you returned home? And I am not talking about— I am not going to the general perception that everybody was not welcomed home. But did your family and friends react differently and welcome you home? Or were you welcome home by people that you knew before you left? Or was there kind of, a kind of a silence from them? Or a fear— EM: 45:56 Well, you were welcomed home as if you did not wait to come. You know, you were— because they knew— did not have any idea what you have just gone through. Say, you know, oh, this is wonderful, you are home! And you know, everybody comes and gives you a gift. But it is like a welcome home like you were away any place, for any reason. So, it really did not have anything to do with being in Vietnam. It had to do with this— oh, and then they would never ask! SM: 46:38 How long— EM: 46:39 They-they— SM: 46:40 Go ahead. No, you go ahead. You can finish up. EM: 46:42 So, they— they, they had no idea what it was like and in a way, it was easier that way because there is no way to explain it to them. How horrible it was. SM: 46:56 Were there movies that that you have seen since you came home that said this is really what happened over there? I know that one movie that touched a lot of people was Coming Home, the one with Jon Voight and Jane Fonda. EM: 47:15 Oh, yes. Yeah. I saw that, and it was a wonderful movie. The movie that impressed me the most and— and I did not see any of the other war movies [inaudible] from Vietnam. The only one I did see, and it was years later, was Apocalypse Now. SM: 47:32 Yeah. EM: 47:34 And I said, I do not know, you know, somebody asked me about it, I said, I do not know if, you know, what happened. Really happened. But I am telling you that the feeling of insanity and weirdness and craziness and other worlds was absolutely right. SM: 47:58 Yes. EM: 47:59 They got the feeling of [inaudible], perfectly. And that war. SM: 48:04 Francis Ford Coppola was the producer of that movie. EM: 48:09 Right. SM: 48:10 Yeah. And I agree. I know one person that I interviewed, I re-interviewed Bobby Mueller this past Monday. And he, he had mentioned to me that the movie that he thought was really— [inaudible] was really like over there was Full Metal Jacket? EM: 48:30 Ah, yeah-yeah, I have heard that. SM: 48:32 So that is the one that he said, if you want to really understand about what happened to the guys over there, you watch that movie. When you came home, did you go right back as a nurse, or did you have a break in between before you went back to being a nurse? EM: 48:49 Well actually, talk about insanity, the guy that I told I could not date anymore, when I went to play coup. He started calling me. He was still in Saigon. But he started calling me. And we talked every night. Because of the job that he did, he had the ability to get a telephone and use it anytime he wanted, I guess. And so, as if in talking to him, it kind of saved my sanity. I did not have to date him. I did not have to go anywhere. But we just talked. And when I got back— he got out of the service before I did. I still had six months actually after I got out, after I came back. And I had a month off and then I went to Madigan General at— in Tacoma, Washington. And that was… the hospital for Fort Lewis, which was a huge basic training fort. And it was not until years and years later, that it dawned on me— you know, I thought, oh, well, of course, I will do intensive care nursing! I am used to that! That is the thing, you see I must have been crazy! But [inaudible] so you get there, and you are dealing with things that are totally different. But, to me, just as horrifying, and I did not realize that until later. Some of the things that were horrifying was that kids would come in with meningitis and die. They would die. And he had just been into basic training! And the parents would come. And they are saying to themselves, we just set this kid off to basic training. But because there was no vaccine or anything back then. You know, you just had to hope that the sergeant would pick up on it and send the kid to, you know, to get help. But sometimes the charities would say, just suck it up. [inaudible], you know, and by that time, they would come to us, the meningitis was so bad that we could not get ahead of it. SM: 51:06 Well, after Vietnam, of course, you got involved with Diane and the creation of the Women's Vietnam memorial that opened tonight and opened in 1993. And I know you have been involved in so many other projects, like the one you are involved in now with a purple heart. And could you describe those years? I know you were on the board, too, with Diane, I believe, could you describe those years of being with Diane and the battles in— kind of put it all together in terms of the initial first meetings to in the opening of the memorial in (19)93. I mean, just from your perspective, because you were on the board, and you were a close friend of Diane's. So, because people who are people who are going to be listening to this will probably many of them will have already visited the Vietnam Memorial and making sure that they visit the Women's Memorial as well. And it was not easy getting it. And that, that the only reason it is there is because of the tenacity, and the drive of people like Diane and yourself that makes sure that women were presented. So just your thoughts. EM: 52:16 Well, Diane was persistent. I did not— she would call me, and she would say we need somebody on the East Coast. Then I would say call somebody else, I do not-I do not know how you can talk about this. I cannot talk about it then. And it was not until up maybe a year and a half before— the dedication, that she called me she said, we really need people on the East Coast to talk about this, would you, do it? And I thought about it, I said, I will do it under one condition that I can stop anytime I want. Or if he asked me a question that I do not like, I do not have to answer it. And she said, great. So, I started talking to people. And the first time again that I talked in front of-in front of a group of people was Mount Holyoke. And what really happened with me being on the board was after the dedication of the memorial, I decided that I was going to go every Memorial Day and every Veterans Day to see Diane. And the second time we were there, I think it was second or third year. There were some people who were pretty rude to her. And she told me about it later. And I said, well, that is it. Diane, I am going to be there every time with you and just follow you around and watch your back. And nobody is going to speak to you like that ever again. Okay, so that is really what I did. We were just— we stuck together. And I was not going to let anybody abuse her ever again. And one year, I went down there, and she came in, she said, well, you are on the board. And I said I am? She said, yeah, I figured it was coming down, you might as well be on the board anyway. So, I said, okay, whatever you want. I also backed her up on the board because sometimes we would have problems with people who have their own agenda. And so, I would just backer with whatever Diane felt was right. SM: 54:47 Do you ever yourself have flashbacks, remembering those times in Vietnam. You could be in a mall or you are at-you are up at a fairground and you hear a helicopter flying in or— EM: 55:03 Oh, yeah, those are—or fireworks. Forget it, you know? I remember when I was asked to speak at the dedication of the Huey helicopter at the Smithsonian. SM: 55:22 Oh, wow. EM: 55:23 And it was the first time that any aircraft had flown over the mall since 9/11. So, I said, oh, sure! You know, you are gawking this thing like an idiot. And I— actually in my speech, I talked about the sound. But then, the helicopter comes, we are all standing outside. The helicopter comes in, it flies by. And it is not supposed to fly over the Vietnam Memorial, because they said so, well, of course, being Vietnam vets, all those guys did, you know. So, they flew down to the Vietnam Memorial, flew over it, and then flew back. And again, it was that hearing it before you saw it. And you could hear that. And then it slowly came into view, and then it landed and all these guys in fatigues got out. And I thought, I mean, I was like in shock. And then I had to speak. So, I spoke, and after the captain came up to me up the helicopter, and he said, have you been inside a Huey in Vietnam? I said, no. He said, would you like to? I said, no, I do not even want to get near it! He said, okay, sorry. So, he just tuck my hand, my arm under his. And we slowly were chatting, he was chatting with this person and that person, and he slowly walks to the door of the Smithsonian and then we walk through the door. Slowly we walk towards the helicopter. And we walked up to it. And he said, would you like to touch it? And he gave me the right to say no. Which I love. But I did. I touched it. And it was, it was extremely moving. I was supposed to be at a reception that night. And I said to them, I have to go home. I have to leave. So, I got my turn. I drove back to New York. It was really overwhelming. SM: 57:56 I never served in Vietnam yet when I come there every year to Memorial Day and Veterans Day as they are clearing out the area making sure there is no bombs, you know, the dogs that they bring down in there. They have this help. They have this helicopter flying overhead during that 12 to one o'clock timeframe, you know, when they are making sure everything is okay from before the ceremony starts. To me, I am not a Vietnam veteran, but that bugs the heck out of me, wondering if that is bugging of the veterans themselves, because of that-that sound, it is that sound— EM: 58:33 If it was a Huey helicopter, it would because it has— the Huey has a distinctive sound. SM: 58:39 Okay. EM: 58:40 A very distinctive sound. And so that would trigger a lot, I think. SM: 58:46 Yeah. EM: 58:47 You say helicopter, helicopter. You know, not so much. SM: 58:50 Yes, you know it is a— EM: 58:51 The thing that I thought was odd was I went to the dedication of the South Dakota Vietnam memorial. They asked someone to come from the Women's Memorial to be present. I said, okay. And after the ceremony, they had all these fireworks in the middle of the day. I thought, are these people insane? SM: 59:16 My gosh. EM: 59:17 Who thought of fireworks? I mean, I cannot stand fireworks to this day, SM: 59:21 Right. What do all Vietnam nurses have in common in your view, and at the same time, where do they most differ? When relating to the time they were in Vietnam? EM: 59:43 Oh, well, you know what I could say about having in common because everybody's experience is different. If you are on a malaria ward, you are experienced would be different from mine in an intensive care unit, or triage, or-or, or… And also, the war was different in different times. I remember a friend of my daughter’s; he is a dentist. And he went to Vietnam, I think it was 1966. It was early anyway. And he said, oh, would you like to come over and see the pictures that I took over there? I asked how on earth can he, you know, see more pictures of this? But they went as a unit to set up a hospital, which was fine. Nobody else did that after that. And the war was not really raging. (19)68, (19)69 there was a lot of fighting. (19)70 to (19)71, not so much fighting, but a lot of drugs. And the guys would come in with drug overdoses. So, it was different kinds of nursing at different times. Over there. SM: 1:01:19 Right. If you had to do it all over again, would you go back? If you were younger? EM: 1:01:26 Oh yeah. SM: 1:01:27 You would? EM: 1:01:28 Yeah. SM: 1:01:29 Have you returned— EM: 1:01:31 In fact, every nurse, I have talked to has said, in a minute. You know, if it all happened again, and would you say yes, and everyone said, yes, I would go. SM: 1:01:43 Have you returned— EM: 1:01:44 And even thought it was traumatizing and life changing, it was worth it. SM: 1:01:48 Right. Have you returned to Vietnam? EM: 1:01:52 No, and I will never go. And that is just me. You know, I remember when my daughter came to me, she said, mom I am going to Vietnam for vacations! I was like what!? A friend of hers was working over in Hanoi. And so, she is like, come on over! You know, go around. And she said, is there any place, you know, that is special that you want me to stop, and see? I said, no, just bring back new memories. SM: 1:02:27 Yeah, I think it is one of the number— one of the top honeymoon places in the world. EM: 1:02:34 Well, it is less expensive than a lot of places. I know that. So, I think that— SM: 1:02:37 Right. Yeah, I know somebody who went on their honeymoon over there. And they said it was it was unbelievable how beautiful the country is. EM: 1:02:46 Yes, yeah. That is what my daughter said too. That it is really [inaudible]. She said also, now this was, oh, gosh. Late (19)90s, I think that she went, and she said, and everybody was so friendly. But she said, but 50 percent of the population was not born— SM: 1:03:08 Yeah, that is true. EM: 1:03:09 —you know, then. So, none of them know what they have— what everybody went through. SM: 1:03:16 This— I am going into a section here now where I am just asking questions about the war. Your thoughts on the war? Did you support America’s involvement in the war as a nurse? And how about right after you returned home from the war? It has been many years later, do you support the war effort? And was it— or do you feel it was a mistake overall? You know, I have also wondered, when I see veterans, you know, their thoughts on the antiwar movement and those who were protesting at home, whether they— you were aware that what was going on at home with on the campuses and in the streets of America, all the protests. I know I threw out a lot there, but just your thoughts on the war overall. EM: 1:04:00 Well, first of all, my brother Charles, the youngest brother, he was arrested for protesting. And somebody said to me, well, how did you feel about that? And I said, well, I knew that my brother loves me, but he hated the war. And he was draft eligible, and he said, if he had been drafted, he would have gone. But he really felt that his duty was to protest the war. Personally, I feel that if the war had not been protested, we would still be there fighting and wasting lives. And I when I went over, I had no feeling one way or another about the war. You know I was just there to help. But I— and I went— the end of July, by the end— by October, I was so filled with rage and anger against our government and against the army, that I just had to really stomp it down. That was part of that— just kind of, you had to do away with your emotions, you know. I mean, we were not allowed to mourn the guys that we lost. Because we did not have time for one thing. You know, you were not allowed to say how angry you were at the army for wasting these guys. Because they felt like you were just sending them out there, only out there who cares? You know, let us send more numbers out there, and then we will win. Well, that is not how it works. And because we were the nurses that took care of them, we knew that these were not just numbers. These were sons, somebody's son, somebody's brother, somebody's, you know, lover, somebody's husband, somebody's father. And that is why when the Iraq war started, my PTSD went wild. And I was talking to my psychiatrist about it. And he said, the reason why it is affecting you so much because— channel 15, the public station that we have, would show pictures of each of the guys that was— or girls, that were killed. And he said, people look at those, and they are just faces and they are numbers. You look at them and you know, they are people because you have seen that before. So, for you, they are all very personal. And that is why it is so difficult for you. SM: 1:06:44 Were you, you know, not only were you having emotional issues with the men and who are dying in the battles, are dying in the hospitals. But how about the citizenry of Vietnam, a lot of the antiwar movement was involved in wanting to bring the boys home, so that they— we would not have any more death. And secondly, against all the massive killing of the Vietnamese citizens. With saturated bombing all over the place, the numbers game, you know, killing, they were even keeping track of the amount of animals that they were killing. They are, they are doing anything to build up numbers. And at least we do not do that today, at least I hope we do not in the saturated bombings when we are in the Middle East. But your— did— were you-were you sensitive enough to know what was going on to the Vietnamese people, too? EM: 1:07:45 I think at the time, you are so concerned about your own people, that you could care less. Whether they are Vietnamese, whether they were suffering [inaudible], you could care less about, you know, because you are caring for your guys. And the fact that these poor guys should not be here in the first place. And it was— one of the things that I became very cynical when I was over there was the fact that when there is war, and this has proved out to be true in Iraq, the first thing you should look at is who is making the money. And the problem: with that is that you are making the money on the lives of citizens. You know, these are not hired thugs that you hired for your army. These are citizen soldiers. That have gone because their country has asked them to. And to use them up so somebody can make money, to me, is the most appalling thing in the world. SM: 1:09:02 That is prophetic. Prophetic, not pathetic, prophetic. Because I think, because I think Bobby has said that— Bobby Mueller has said the same thing. In some of his deep thoughts about war. EM: 1:09:19 Yeah. Follow the money. SM: 10:09:21 Yeah. And yep, he is always following the money. When John Kerry went before the Fulbright Committee, the Foreign Relations Committee. A lot of people— Vietnam Veterans Against the War he represented, and in the description of the atrocities that took place in Vietnam, not only the atrocities that were being committed by our troops, but some of the descriptions of what was actually happening in there. Were you aware of that? Were you aware of some of these— EM: 1:09:56 You know, it is kind of like with My Lai. When My Lai happened, and they publicized it, I thought to myself, I can totally understand why that happened. These guys were all young, really young. They were not like— I guess the average age during World War Two was 26. These guys were 18 and 19! And they were marked by somebody who was 21! And they did not have much leadership over there. Everybody was passing the buck. And to me, to be put out in the field, to be afraid, day after day after day, for your life. To not trust anyone. You never do. I mean, that was true, in Saigon they told us do not kick the cans, when you are walking down the street, you see a can, do not kick it. Could have an explosive in it. And you never knew. Because they did not wear uniforms. It was not like, oh, here is the enemy and there is not. You know, we had— I remember we had a desk clerk who worked with us in the intensive care unit. And one morning, he was not there. And I said, well, what happened to so and so? Oh, he was killed last night, he was VC. We never knew that! SM: 1:11:31 Oh, my gosh. Sheesh. EM: 1:11:35 And so, you just did not know who your enemy was. And you could get crazy up there. It is kind of like when my daughter went with me for the dedication. And she came back to the room. She said, Mom, your guys down at the [inaudible] wearing their uniforms. What is with that? And I said, Gwyneth, your brother is now 19. The most he has ever done, in the wild, is to float down the Delaware with the Boy Scout troop. Think of him being put into basic training, and then dropped in the middle of the jungle, and living in fear, for a year. He would come back a different person. SM: 1:12:26 When the Vietnam Veterans formed that organization, Vietnam Veterans Against the War, I think it was around the time you came home, although they were at the 1970 Republican convention. I know Bobby was in that group. What did you think of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War because they were throwing their— this is right about the time that John Kerry did the presentation before the Foreign Relations Committee. They threw their-their medals away. EM: 1:12:59 Yeah. SM: 1:13:00 What did you think of— what do you think the majority of the Vietnam Veterans thought of this group in the beginning, even though that more and more were joining as the years went on, and what did the nurses think? You in particular? EM: 1:13:15 I do not— for me, I was all for it. Because I was totally against that war. I thought it was a useless war, that we were just throwing our young men away. For no reason. Because they were not allowing them to win the war. I mean, we had rules. And the Viet— they— Vietcong had no rules. They could do whatever they want. And so, we were— they said to us, and if you break those rules, it is against the law, you know, and you will be prosecuted. Well, none of the North Vietnamese were prosecuted for any of those things. And they did whatever they needed to do to win. I think that is just sad as it is, I did not— the only episode I have watched of the Ken Burns Vietnam thing with the first one, because I knew it would be about history. And the sad thing to me is that we turned Ho Chi Minh away when he came for help. SM: 1:14:27 That is right. EM: 1:14:28 He came to us first and said, we want to have a united country. SM: 1:14:37 Yes, I— EM: 1:14:38 And what a sad thing that is, you know? SM: 1:14:41 He was just a figurehead really. At the end of the war, he-he really had no impact. He was just a figurehead and of course eventually died before the war ended. But, that whole thing about Harry Truman had got a letter after World War II from Ho Chi Minh saying how much he admired Thomas Jefferson and the Declaration of Independence and then the story was we just gotten over a terrible war and Truman did not want to [inaudible] linked with another conflict someplace else. So, he just kind of avoided Ho Chi Minh. Boy, if Harry Truman had responded in friendship to Ho Chi Minh my golly— EM: 1:15:19 I know. SM: 1:15:20 I mean this never would have happened. History is amazing. When you are— when you think about Diane— we brought up Jan Scruggs and Jack Wheeler were— and I think, Bob Lubeck, or Dewback. Were the three men that were— really created the Vietnam Memorial, as an idea. Were you at the 1982 opening of the wall? EM: 1:15:39 No, I would not have gone for anything. I was still, for me, it was still too, too raw. I was [inaudible] SM: 1:15:53 Because it, you know, they got the documentary on that, that particular day. And oh, my golly, it is like everything changed on that day in terms of the views toward Vietnam veterans. The feeling of that they felt proud of what, you know, the brotherhood was amazing. And I am sure the sisterhood with nurses was amazing. It was just like a coming together, and kind of changed, for the better, the views of America and towards those who served in Vietnam, and in the remembrance, events have been there ever since I believe I know. Jan was the moderator for many years. Diane, in the Women's Memorial, she represented for quite a few years, your thoughts on the Vietnam Memorial, the battle to get the memorial in the first place? And then finally, here with Jan wrote his first book was the— To Heal a Nation. And we know that the effort was to heal the families of Vietnam vets and those who died and so forth. But it is a lot— it is a big question here. But your thoughts on that whole battle too, which eventually led to the Women's Memorial, being on the wall, even Jan [inaudible] may have opposed it. I mean, everything comes with a battle. EM: 1:17:10 Right, right, right. Well, everything does come, you know, with a battle. And I think— I bet the battle people never served. And that is the key is that these people never served. Those are the ones that are saying no. And that is why I think somebody mentioned the other day, everybody should do some kind of service. You know, whether it is in country or, you know, no matter what it is, you could do some kind of service for their country for a year or two. And I totally believe that. SM: 1:17:57 I do too. And— EM: 1:18:01 And then when the veterans calm, they would have some kind of— I mean, here are people who— their big thing in Congress or the Senate has been making money. And they just consider veterans parasites. You know, they use them when they want to make more money with a war. But then after they are parasites. SM: 1:18:32 Did the wall help heal our nation from that war? And because I still, I guess, I guess me, some people say I am obsessed with Vietnam and just move on. We are in 2019 now, but I see so many from lessons that we learn and then lessons that we have learned and lost. And I think it is healed a lot of the Vietnam vets. But— EM: 1:19:00 Yes, yeah. SM: 1:19:01 How about the need— how about the nation? Those are— because the divisions were so intense back then. EM: 1:19:11 And actually, for my generation, sometimes it still is. There is still some people that I cannot discuss it with. You know, that, and that is okay. As long as I know that I just will not discuss it with them. But I know what I know. And, but the thing is about that war, and the healing to me would be if they have learned something, right. And when the first George Bush said, oh, we are going into Kuwait to help the people. I said, they are lying to us again, they are going in there for the oil! If you just tell us the truth, and that was the biggest thing for me was that they lied all the time, about Vietnam. All the time. They lied why we are there. They lied, you know, about the numbers. They lied about getting out. SM: 1:20:12 Yeah, it was George Bush. It was George Bush who said the Vietnam syndrome is over. Remember, he said that in 1989? And I thought that I do not think he knows what he is talking about. EM: 1:20:25 Right? He does not. Yeah. SM: 1:20:27 Yeah. So, this— you— what you just said, there it goes right into this next question is, as time goes on, why must we must, why must we never forget the Vietnam War? And the lessons learned or lost from that war? Why is it important to remember rather than being, just then being a lost footnote in history, which seems to be all events had happened in history. 120 years should now like we are talking about the Civil War and reading all the books, while we are doing the same thing about the Vietnam War. But— EM: 1:21:03 I think the biggest thing that the American people, at least some of them, learned from the Vietnam War was to question the government. And to say, wait a second, is this really real? You know, because the government, again, is going to do whatever it wants. But it is actually the people that say, I beg your pardon? You know, and that is one of the reasons, for me, sending people over there. 345 tours over to Iraq, and Afghanistan is cruel and unusual punishment. If you do that, you should be giving them $100,000 a year when they retire. And every medical benefits they need, but they do not. They give them a hard time. And if you are injured, sick, they give them a hard time. And to me the torture that these people have had to go through. I mean, we had to go for a year. It is true, now their tour, I think is six months or something. But we have to go for a year. And what happens is… your mind gets twisted, but then you go back a second time. Pretty soon, it feels comfortable. Because you are used to the adrenaline and the camaraderie and all that— when you come home, it is even harder. And then you come back, and you are supposed to be normal! That is the thing. They are going to expect you to be normal. Nobody is normal! I think that the biggest thing about Vietnam is, question the government, always question the government, because there are people in the government who are not there for the good of the people. SM: 1:23:00 Do you consider— EM: 1:23:02 They are there for good of themselves. SM: 1:23:05 Yeah, I always say that the people that serve this nation, in the military, are our heroes, because they put their lives on the line. And I will always believe that. There is a bad, but there is bad within every group. But the majority of them are heroes. But I go a step further here. I also feel that those who are in the anti-war movement in the United States, and then even other parts of the world too that were genuinely, I mean, genuine, honestly, not to just create, you know, controversy and problems and everything. The [inaudible] were generally against the war because they wanted to bring our troops home, so no more of them would be killed, and certainly to say the Vietnamese citizens, I consider them heroes too. EM: 1:23:48 Right. Oh absolutely, absolutely. SM: 1:23:51 Yeah, and so— and I have said this to Randy Davis, who I have gotten to know quite well, who was one of the biggest activists in America at that time. He did— he was the organizer of the moratorium. And, and he says, well, thanks, Steve. But I really believe that because they— a lot of them were arrested, they were spied on they have, you know, there is just, it is just a case that if they were genuinely caring about the lives of our troops, and the people of Vietnam, and that is what— but if they are only doing it to raise hell. I am not speaking of them. So, do you feel the same way too? EM: 1:24:28 Oh, absolutely. In fact, the money that I send these days is to Veterans for Peace. SM: 1:24:35 Oh, yes. EM: 1:24:36 And to vote vets, who— finance veterans who are running for office SM: 1:24:46 Yeah, I kind of wish John McCain was still with us. Because no matter what you thought about him, I do not care whether he is Republican or Democrat man. He was outspoken, and we miss him in Congress, believe me, we miss him? EM: 1:25:01 Yeah, I know. SM: 1:25:02 When you— I am— EM: 1:25:04 It is really— it is such a shame because you are looking at the-the Republicans in Congress and you say to yourself, none of them speak up, what is wrong with them? You know, when verbal abuse is happening or bullying is happening or whatever, I cannot get over that, but none of them speak up. SM: 1:25:25 Yeah, it is you know, that whole term when we call about a politician or a statesman or stateswoman, we do not have, we do not have enough of them. And today— EM: 1:25:37 I know. SM: 1:25:38 And that bugs me. When I think of the (19)60s, I think of, you know, whether you liked the senators or not, I think of Edwin Muskie, I think of Gaylord Nelson. I know, William Fulbright, early in his years was a bigot. We know that when he was in Arkansas, but he was a hell of a senator. I am talking about statesman now, even the Kennedys, and Dr. King who was a— it is just a different— it is just something— there is something missing. When you when you think of the 1960s and (19)70s. What is the first thing that comes to your mind? EM: 1:26:14 Oh, boy. I think Vietnam. It was [inaudible], it was interesting, because when my daughter had asked me to speak, and she said she was taking a course on the (19)60s and I said, is that history already? I could not believe it! She said, mom, that was one of the most amazing decades in the history of the United States. And I never thought of it that way. But it is true. You know, with Martin Luther King and Kennedy and all of these people. So many changes, you know, even just women's [inaudible] coming true You know, and then the early (19)70s, then they finally made birth control legal. Which, I am sure that the young people today are just amazed that it ever was illegal. SM: 1:27:19 Yeah, is there one particular event in the (19)60s and (19)70s, that stands out above all the others in your view? EM: 1:27:35 There were just so many of them. The one that popped into my head, I do not think this was the most, you know, traumatic one, but was the one where the Russian ships were going to deliver something to Cuba. I was in nursing school at the time. And they put everyone on alert. And that if something happened, everybody would be high stepping notch in what they would have to do. Because they would have— who knows what would happen? You know if we had to go to war with Cuba or Russia. You know that to me was a real surprise. That— SM: 1:28:25 That was that was the (19)62, yeah that was the (19)62 Cuban Missile Crisis. EM: 1:28:32 Right-right. SM: 1:28:35 And now history has shown we were lucky to have JFK is our president. No question about it. EM: 1:28:41 Yes, yeah. SM: 1:28:44 It has been said that what made the (19)60s and (19)70s was the spirit of the times of feeling that everything was possible about the about once future that we were going to end the war, bring peace to the world. And racism, sexism, homophobia. There was it was just a feeling. Your thoughts on the concept that the (19)60s was about spirit? And please do not— my phone is ringing. Do not worry about that. EM: 1:29:24 I think it has to do with a lot of different things. The (19)50s were what I would call very controlled. You know, being a Catholic in the (19)50s its church was extremely controlling then. Really, you know, I— it is the kind of thing where I tell people when I was in grade school and they taught about, you know, “Thou shalt not steal,” they told us that if you steal $7 or more, it is a mortal sin. If you steal less than that it is a menial sin. So, it was that kind of thing where everybody needed to know what the rule was. And I said, but nobody ever said, you do not steal because it is not nice, and it hurts people. And it does not belong to you. Nobody ever said that. It was about the punishment. I told that to somebody who was there when I went to New York. She said, oh my God in New York was $12! SM: 1:30:28 I never heard this! Wow that is... EM: 1:30:31 Yeah. But I think it is because we were so controlled. Remember, Donna Reed? SM: 1:30:39 Oh, yeah, The Donna Reed Show. Yes. EM: 1:30:40 Perfect housewife, the perfect this, the perfect that. And then the (19)60s came and it was like, you know, we do not want this. We want real, not perfect. I [inaudible] now I do not remember this too much. But I remember going through that whole era where they persecuted Hollywood, you know, communists. What was his name? SM: 1:31:15 McCarthy era? EM: 1:31:16 Yes. The McCarthy era. I think that-that really wrapped around somebody— some people's heads too, you know, that this was not what we want in our country. We want freedom, we want openness. And I think that is really what, you know, the people were saying that this— because I can remember I was in California 1967. Everybody was doing everything. And the thought process was anything you believe is fine. Which for me was great, because it really opened a lot of doors as to what I wanted. And a God and what I wanted in a belief, which really held me through Vietnam. SM: 1:32:05 Right. You know, we— took mentioned The Donna Reed Show, there was Father Knows Best too that was, that was very popular— The Danny Thomas show and all those shows about families that went right into the early (19)60s as well. And then began the early (19)70s with All in the Family. Archie Bunker and oh, wow. Anyways, what was the watershed event in the (19)60s in your view? Might be repeated the further earlier question, but I hear from a lot of people that— might remember Paul Critchlow? You know, Paul, I interviewed as well, he is unbelievable. And he said he went into the service to go to Vietnam because he felt I had to be involved in the watershed event of my generation, which was the Vietnam War, and, you know, Paul could have gone on to grad school, you know. And they came in he, he was at Nebraska and, and of course, he was treated poorly when he returned home to Nebraska too. So, yeah, and a watershed is something that I have always heard as a history major is it is what is the event that really that stands out in the (19)60s and (19)70s. It can be something that happened one day, or it could be what you just described your— earlier the Vietnam War too EM: 1:33:50 I do not think that there was a watershed thing for me. I think that— because there just kept being one huge thing after another, you know, a death here and then another death, and then another death. You know, people kept selling off the good guys. And you are saying to yourself, how come nobody ever shoots the bad guys? But— and then Vietnam, and I think the whole, that whole decade is, especially the second half of that decade, was huge for me. SM: 1:34:35 At here at Binghamton University, I have tried to persuade the people I work with here on the new center, that when we talk about the (19)60s we are talking really up to 1973. I— you know, what happened from 1960 to (19)73. You had the Kennedy assassination, obviously, ending— although really the beginning of the first half of the (19)60s. And then you have got, as some people have said, all hell broke loose after (19)63 Right through (19)73. Because you know what happened in (19)70. And then (19)71, and (19)72, and (19)73 was really almost again, part of the (19)60s. And then all of a sudden things change. And by (19)75, it was no more because the commune movement and everything, the rise of the radical right in the religious community, and there is a whole lot happening. But anyways. EM: 1:35:35 But also, Nixon was— Nixon left. And then after he left, war was finally ended. He was elected to end the war. But he liked Johnson. Why? Because I can remember Jackson was saying, oh, no, we are not going to—this was during the election kind of thing—we are not going to spend any more troops over there. And then of course, he did. SM: 1:36:08 Yeah, it was, it was just so many different lies. I remember the first lie to me, and I was very young, was the U-2 crisis with Eisenhower, where he went on national— when he went on the national television in 1959, and said the guy was not a spy over Russia. Very obvious he was lying. And, you know, I do not— I am not going to, you know, that is the one time I disliked him. But, you know, I remember that as a specific lie in front of the American public about it about the U-2, Gary Powers. And then we start the whole thing going into Vietnam. So, it is kind of— the Boomers were kind of— saw it over and over again, if you could describe the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s. What would be the qualities you admire or and the qualities you least admire? The Boomer generation? EM: 1:37:05 Well, the best quality was that a lot of them thought outside the box, which had not been done before. And the boxes usually had been built by people who wanted to control people. And so now these guys and gals were thinking outside the boxes. It scared the, you know, the box builders. But for humankind, I think it was a great thing. You know that they were thinking, wait a second. And the biggest thing, again, that I think— one of the biggest things that the Vietnam War did for the people of the United States was, taught them not to trust the government, and to think for themselves. And to question. SM: 1:38:02 Well, that is something that is continuing because we are seeing so much questioning today. It is amazing. EM: 1:38:07 Right. SM: 1:38:08 Yeah, the question though— question we ask, though, is how many of those people who are questioning are really part of that Boomer generation or generations that follow? Like the millennials, and Generation Y and so forth. 1:38:23 But— actually, the boomer generation has really been a disappointment, I think, in that they did not follow up on a lot of what they hoped would happen, SM: 1:38:35 Right. Yeah— EM: 1:38:39 I think that a lot of the generations, like my daughter's generation, my daughter and son, are— is very proactive. My daughter is gay. And so, she is very proactive. You know, never before would you have been able to. SM: 1:38:58 Yeah, I think there is some very clear of strengths that came out. And there is some clear weaknesses as well. And the one thing that that I think is to me, and I just want your thoughts on this, and this was for— I am not paraphrasing Bobby Muller, but you know, he says, as the (19)60s move on, you know, we need to move on. But he did say one thing. And that was the lack of trust in our leaders, that seems to be common among the boomers. And the boomers because of the lies, the continuing of lies, lack of trust. And if you can recall, this was across the board. It was not only lack of trust in our president, but lack of trust in the head of the Board of Supervisors, the head of the like a president of the college and a university, the minister or priest or anybody in positions of authority or responsibility, anyone who was supposedly the head of a manager of a bank, they were all bad because you could not trust them because they were leaders. And that seems to have been across the board. And when you have Vietnam and Watergate and some of the other things… I— do you agree— EM: 1:40:19 But it turned out to be right. I mean, look at the Catholic Church. You know, you could not trust them because they were not trustworthy with your kids. SM: 1:40:27 Right, yeah so— EM: 1:40:31 The lack of trust was right! SM: 1:40:36 You have those, though, that this is a real— this is a— would be a great classroom discussion. Because philosophy, because the people that believe that— people that do not— are constantly— do not trust others, cannot be a leader. Because you have got to be able to understand— you got to be able to be trusted to be a leader, number one. And you have got to be able to do things that make people believe in you. So, if you are constantly not trusting others, who is going to trust you? So— EM: 1:41:06 I do not think it is that, that trusting others. I think it is, certain people in authority that are not trusted. You know, if you, say, running for office, you should trust the people that are helping you out. And you should trust what you believe in. But I certainly would not trust any big government people. And I would think, you know, I would be suspicious if some big company came and said, we really want to back you. Because what do they want? Nobody does it for free? So, there are a lot of people who are not trustworthy. SM: 1:42:00 Well, I know the— EM: 1:42:02 I do not think being suspicious and being careful is a bad thing. You know, if somebody comes to me, and I am a senator and says, oh, this is really— it would be great, it would be great. Why? Is it great for you? Or is it great for my people? SM: 1:42:27 Getting back to Vietnam, you know, they always I work in a university for many years, and universities are supposed to be a microcosm: of society. They always say that. Now, when you look at the Vietnam War, and you even mentioned it that, that the drugs kind of become very prevalent in the (19)69-(19)73, or whatever, period in Vietnam. And we all hear about the music that was being played over in Vietnam, just like the music being played in America at the time. What— you know, and the whole racism: issue between Black and white soldiers and troops, was what was happening in Vietnam, the same thing that was happening in America in the social scene? Where the tensions between people of color and people who were white, was prevalent, but of course, we all know that when you are in a war zone, you believe you work as a unit. So that kind of goes away when you are in battle. But it is when you are not in battle. Your thoughts on— was Vietnam a microcosm of what was happening in America? EM: 1:43:35 And I have no idea. The only thing I know is, it did not matter what color you were, if you were one of my corpsmen, you were part of the team. And it did not matter what color you were, if you came in as a patient, you were a patient. And that is all I really knew about any kind of, you know, it was not so— where I was, there was no conflict because we needed everybody. And you did depend on them. And they did work as a team. So, really was not a question for me, but I was not, you know— SM: 1:44:13 Did the increase in drug usage over there really hurt the war effort and in terms of— degrade our military preparedness? EM: 1:44:26 I do not think it hurt the war effort. Because from what I understand, a lot of the drugs taken over there were taken because they kind of let up. And were not really planning on winning the war. They were just kind of in a waiting. SM: 1:44:45 Yes. Okay. That is, it is a good description. EM: 1:44:49 And so, if you are bored, what do you do? And they were so readily available. That I am sure that people just said, well, let me try it, let me see what. If you are really busy shooting people, you do not take drugs. Or if you are busy just trying to stay alive, you do not take drugs. SM: 1:45:14 Or if you are concentrating to get the job done, you do not take drugs. Did you— EM: 1:45:17 Right. And if you have time on your hands in the middle of a jungle or whatever, or in the middle of Saigon or in the middle of whatever, then you might take drugs if they are available. Because who wants to be over there anyway? SM: 1:45:31 Yeah, the boomer generation when they were young, lot of them thought felt that they were the most unique generation in history, because of all the things we talked about earlier, they are going to make the world better for everyone. And they were not going to end things that have been here forever on planet Earth, like racism, sexism, so forth. Your thoughts, the boomer generation, were they the most unique group, ever? And secondly, have you changed— how did you feel about it when you were young? Being a part of it. And secondly, how do you feel now that you are a lot older? EM: 1:46:09 I think, as a group… What happened was a lot of stuff happened. It was not just civil rights. It was civil rights and women's rights, and, you know, on and on and on, about opening a lot of ideas. And it did not all get taken care of. But all of the ideas came out. And I think that-that was important, because so many they have been worked on, you know, one of the things that was allowed was all this fight about women's rights. Now, that is kind of, to me, a no brainer. But men seem to fight it like cats and dogs. And it is a power thing. You know, it is the same with just my kids. But the same with abortion. It is fine. If you do not believe in abortion, then do not have one. But if somebody else believes something totally different than you, what makes them wrong? You know, you are saying that what you believe is right, well, that fits right for you. But it is like kind of like religions, religions are all different. So, if you believe that life starts at the instant at conception, God bless you, do not have an abortion. But if somebody else actually believed, because of her whole, you know, that life happens at the moment of birth, then she has the right to do whatever she wants with her body. And yet, there are people who want to force their beliefs on other people. SM: 1:48:10 When you look at the (19)60s and (19)70s, I always say early (19)70s, not all (19)70s I should say. Who are the good guys? Who are the bad guys? Who are the good girls or the bad women, the good women, I mean, it can be a group, or it could be an individual. EM: 1:48:36 I cannot think of any bad. The groups just were. And they all were for a different reason. You know, some-some of the African American people became more militant, because they felt that the peace thing did not work. I do not think that is necessarily bad. I think it is just that they were so frustrated they could hardly see straight, and they had been waiting for 100 years. That is a long time. You know, since the Civil War. And same with women's rights. Some woman was strident. And some women were, you know, wrap yourself in cellophane when your husband comes home. So— I think all of the ideas need to be out there. And all of them need to be looked at. And hopefully sanity overtakes. SM: 1:49:49 Right. And I guess— I am going to end right here because I have gone back to the Women's Memorial and the Three-Man statue and the Maya Lin’s Vietnam Memorial. When you enter that sacred ground, every time you go there, and you look at the wall, and you kind of— I do this even though I did not serve Vietnam, but Vietnam had such an influence on my life, and my peers’ lives. I like to be there alone sometimes. So, I will walk on the side where the Washington Monument is monument is where it is not as crowded. And I will just stand there for 30, 20-30 minutes. And I go back to when I was young, college, and all the things, watching the TV, like we all did during the war, the first war that was shown to the American public. And all these flashes go through my head, memories of back, what goes through your mind? When if when you go back there and look at the wall? I know you see the names there. But do you see— EM: 1:51:04 Actually, it is interesting, because one of the things that you said was sacred ground, and I do not consider— for me, It is not sacred ground. This is like home. And when I go there, and I have done this before, I have talked to my boys. I go to the area on the wall where I know my guys are, and I just talked to them. And I am glad that those memorials are there because that wall really shows what war is. Not just a guy on a horse, you know, with a sword. It is individual people. And it has been a meeting place of healing for Vietnam vets, where they can come, meet each other. They may never have known each other before, but because they are Vietnam vets, they communicate and it is a healing process. The same with the Women's Memorial. And the memorial next to the statue of the three guys, which is, you know, the memorial remembering all those who died because of the war. SM: 1:52:22 Yes-yes. They just redid that one. EM: 1:52:25 Yeah. That, to me is most important. Because there were so many who died because of that war. From Agent Orange or suicide or whatever it might be. SM: 1:52:40 Yeah, when I when I see that whole area there, I think of that word, context. Context being defined as a word that means everybody's feelings, thoughts, reflections, memories, matter. So that— what you are telling me today, the feelings that I have as a non-veteran, but who is a big supporter of veterans And what, you know, whether a person's anti-war supported the war, or, you know, I have spoken to a lot of conservatives, as well as liberals and the conservatives are, you are really asking us to be involved in this, you know? Yes, I am. It is the— it is context about— everybody's views matter. If you want to understand this very complex, decade or decade and a half from— I consider from 1960 to 1976, when we have celebrated our 200th anniversary, and of course, Jimmy Carter comes in as president, but it is that whole era. And there is so much. So, are there any other— I am done with questions. Are there any other questions you thought I might ask you or any final thoughts you want to add to the conversation? EM: 1:54:03 I do not think so. Whatever things you— when you mentioned the statue of the three guys what I remember was, when Diane and I had first went up and— we were together and we went up to the statue of those three guys, and I said to Diane, okay, when you look at the statue, what do you think first? She looked at and she said, those guys have great veins, for starting an IV. I said they do! That is the first thing I looked at, the veins on there, wow. That would be easy! SM: 1:54:37 Wow. EM: 1:54:41 We do things a little differently. SM: 1:54:44 Yeah, well, you know, just recently, you know, Ross Perot passed away and of course, he was a big critic of the wall. And originally, he was going to give a lot—give a lot of money. I think, I heard $171,000. he was going to give to Jim Scruggs and the people involved. But then when he saw the design of the— by Maya Lin, he wanted to take the money back. I do not know, I do not think he eventually did, but no matter what, whether it be the Vietnam Memorial, the— even the three man statue and the Woman's Memorial, the battles to have them even there is another story! It is another war! In respect, the war to get them— Yeah, so, anyways… EM: 1:55:26 But you know I actually tell you, looking at those three guys, one of the works of art that has meant the most to me, I found in South Dakota when I went through that. And it was a print made by a Vietnam vet out in Washington State. And it was the heads of three young guys, they had these helmets on, they looked like they just came out of the bush. And each face has the 1000-yard stare. But they also their faces have these splinters, you know, like a fractured piece of glass. With just cracks little teeny-teeny grips, but they are all cracked differently. Each face is cracked in a different place. And at the bottom, a dog tag that says PTSD. SM: 1:56:24 Wow. That is a drawing? EM: 1:56:27 And I gave— It is a- it is a— I can send it to you, if you have— SM: 1:56:32 Yeah, if you could send it on my— I am not here, I am up in Binghamton, I will not be able to get to it until I get home. But you have my email. I will give it— [inaudible]. EM: 1:56:42 I could use your phone number too; I could just take a picture and— SM: 1:56:44 Yes, that would be fine. Yep. EM: 1:56:49 Okay. But that to me was—said it all. And I gave it to my psychiatrist, one of the— I had a couple of friends. And I gave one to my psychiatrist. And he is no longer my psychiatrist, I have a female now, but he said— I saw him in the hall the other day. And he said, that is the first thing the guys noticed when they come in. And they said that is it. SM: 1:57:08 Wow. Yeah, I got to see that for sure. All right. Well, Edie, thank you very much. We almost did two hours here on what we are going to do is I will—Binghamton University will send you the tape to your email. EM: 1:57:24 Oh, great. Okay. SM: 1:57:25 It will be— I do not know how one is— how long it is going to take, but it will be a digital recording. And then you can watch it and then finally approve it so can be used for research and scholarship with all the other interviews here at Binghamton. EM: 1:57:39 Okay, great. Perfect. SM: 1:57:41 Well thank you very much, Edie, you have a great day, and I will be seeing you. Are you going to be out there at Veterans Day. EM: 1:57:46 No, I was there for Memorial Day. So that is it for me this year. SM: 1:57:50 All right. Well, I will see you next Memorial Day. EM: 1:57:52 Okay, saints alive! SM: 1:57:54 We will be in touch before then you take care! Thank you! EM: 1:57:57 Okay, you too! SM: 1:57:58 Bye! (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Edie Meeks https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8d5394a5fba16d06a0c580ad18e29c97.jpg 70973c854a47998ba29fb872ac3b8c56 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ec29310de27fe74d47533913e95c11f5.MP3 3cc7bd834caff21836c8b56b8203a797 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 8/7/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Mitch Pearlstein Biographical Text Dr. Mitch Pearlstein is an editorial writer, columnist and founder and former President at the Center of the American Experiment. Prior to that, he served in the U.S. Department of Education, during the Reagan and George H. W. Bush administrations. He received his Bachelor's degree in Political Science from Binghamton University, and he has a Ph.D. in Education Administration from the University of Minnesota. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 02:18:32 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Baby Boomer generation; Binghamton University Guarneri String Quartet; American policy; 1960s; Young Americans for Freedom; Anti-War Movement; Vietnam War Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Dr. Mitch Pearlstein Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger Date of interview: 7 August 2019 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:02 SM: First off Mitch, I want to thank you very much for doing this. I appreciate it very much and– 00:07 MP: Happy to. 00:07 SM: Yep, the first question I try to ask most of the people I have interviewed is to tell us a little bit about your background, where you grew up, your early family life, your early years before you even attended Harpur College. And some of the impact of that early life on your life. 00:25 MP: Well, that will take the first hour, that is not bad. I grew up in Queens. It was born the actually in Brooklyn, the old Bedbell Hospital, which is I have been told the Brookhaven Medical Center and has been that for a long, long time, but do not hold me to any of that. I am 71. Spent the seven years, in Sunnyside in Queens, Long Island City. I am the first of three kids. My brother Robert is twenty months my junior and my sister Andy, who I say is Andrea and she says Andrea, she is nine years my junior. So we were in Sunnyside, as I say, for seven years at PS 150 which is where David Horowitz went to school go I think seven years before I was there. We moved to Far Rockaway in, also in Queens right on the beach, when I was I suspect seven and started off at PS 215. Over time that led to junior high school 180 and then Far Rockaway High School. My father was in sales and for a period, was in management- if you are familiar with the Modells Shoppers World? 01:32 SM: Oh, yeah. 02:05 MP: He was with them for a long, long time. He actually was with a firm called the [inaudible] “D" as in "dog", A, "V" as in "victor," E, G A sporting goods and they were purchased by Modells or [inaudible] in the late (19)50s or so. So he had essentially his entire career there. My mother did not work outside of the home until all the kids left home. And my father was not pleased about his wife working outside of the home, quite traditional in that sense. At the risk of sounding unkind and all it was not an educated family from which I came, at least in terms of school credentials and all. My father was a high school graduate, my mother was a high school dropout her parents never learned how to read. I was one of the first people in the family, certainly on my mother's side to go to college. I was a wonderful student up and through sixth grade. I tell people I did poorly in high school and junior high school because I had worked so hard and sixth grade I had burned out. Not too many people believe this. I was lazy as the short answer. We want to get what therapeutic, I was troubled in some fashion. I just did not do my work. And this was early in the baby boomer time, going off to college, meaning there were more kids to school than they were in necessarily seats. And I had a hard time getting in any place. I graduated high school barely I suspect, in (19)66- my test scores were pretty good- when I say just barely [inaudible] and see what I suspect. I got out of high school well enough but I had done lousy and the City University system to its great credit and through my everlasting gratitude put together very-very quickly for the class graduating in (19)66, City University College centers they were called attached to I think five of the community colleges, and these were places where kids who could not even get into a community college at the time and the SUNY system. And that saved me, I do not know, I do not remember exactly what I would have done, it would, if that had not happened I would've gone to school someplace, but probably would have cost me or my family. So I attended for one year. And these were one year programs, The City University College Center at New York City Community College, which is a mouthful, was in a warehouse in downtown Brooklyn. And this is when I came to realize that beer is a far better motivator than self-esteem or anything of the sort. At least that was my interpretation afterwards. I figured that this was my last chance. If I continued to screw up, I would not have a career. So I worked very hard, and did quite well. And after one semester, I had a 3.8 if I recall. 02:05 SM: Yep. Oh, that is great. 06:00 MP: And applied, I said I was going to apply to the four university centers in the SUNY system. And the way it worked, I think Stony Brook's application came in first, but they did not want to stay on Long Island. Binghamton came in second. So I applied to Binghamton. One of them, Albany or Buffalo never came in and I just did not bother with the other because I knew with the 3.8 I was pretty good for Binghamton to offer. And that is the way it worked. So that was a turning point. I did well academically and over the next several years, sometimes I did exceed extremely well, academically and another times not. It always had to do with my working hard or not working hard or being involved in the antiwar movement, frankly. 06:56 SM: Right. 06:57 MP: Or having my heart broken by some female. And that is a rough description- 07:06 SM: Well, that fits right into the- 07:07 MP: [inaudible] my life until I got to Binghamton, you know. 07:11 SM: Yeah that, my next question was, how and why did you choose Harpur? You just explained it beautifully. And but the some of the questions I wanted to ask about your Harpur years here is, what activities were you involved in at the school, including some of the groups you joined? And how would you describe your four years at Binghamton between (19)67 and (19)70, ah (19)66, I guess (19)67 and (19)70, your three years. 07:17 MP: Thank you. Yeah, it was three years. I came in as a sophomore. I played baseball, I was a pitcher on the baseball team. I had grown up playing baseball. As a kid. I was pretty decent. Played in high school, but I was not so decent then, they were better players that I was at the time. Got to Harpur and got on to the baseball team. I was a pitcher and I actually started opening day and my junior year. 08:13 SM: Wow. 08:14 MP: Yeah, guess who I do not recall necessarily. I did beat Stony Brook in a complete seven inning game, was part of a doubleheader and that was as a junior. 08:24 SM: Wow. 08:24 MP: But overall, I had a losing record in the lousy ERA. But I have remained close friends with my old coach. For example, John Affleck. AFFLECK. Who, looking back, he was not much older than the ballplayers at the time. He is in Florida now, has been there for a while though, he summers in Ontario. I have not seen him since I was in Binghamton last which was, I think for my 40th class reunion, so that would have been nine years ago, but we stay in touch a couple of times a year with emails back and forth and some of the old ballplayers are people who myself stay in touch with. If someone is sick, and someone sends out an email about how folks are doing or something, perhaps happier, we will have a couple of emails going between and among us. That will happen about twice a year. 09:30 SM: Do you [inaudible]- Do you remember coach Schum? 09:35 MP: Oh, of course him. Very well. I remember all of the coaches for the most part, I suspect quite well, in part, in large part because I was a student there. And then I worked there, we will get to that. And then I was a reporter for the Sun-Bulletin and I did sports for a while so I knew these folks reasonably well, yeah. 09:58 SM: Yeah, coach Schum was, did all the gym classes. And I remember going to my first gym class there. And he did not read the names off. He read the social security numbers off. [laughs] Yeah. And he said, "Alright, you should know your social security number by now." And, of course I knew I did not. And-and so he is reading all the social security numbers and he comes to mine, and then he just says it again. And I, "McKiernan!" I never forgot my social security number after that. What, Mitch, you were involved, talk about some of the, your out of classroom experiences that were during your years at Binghamton, whether it be involved in any protests or activist activities, going to meet speakers that came to campus during that very tumultuous time, any programs and inspired you, just things that happened during those three years before you graduated in (19)70? 10:12 MP: Did he really? Well, let us, uh, technically, I graduated in (19)71. I was seven credits short. But I got the bureaucracy a couple of years later to change my class to what I viewed as my real class, (19)70. So, when I get a mailing, it will say Pearlstein (19)70, which probably illegal where that is concerned, in the interest of full disclosure. We will get into, let us let us delay for a moment the political stuff and the anti-war stuff. We will talk about a couple of other things. I have spoken about on a number of occasions out here about how the Guarneri String Quartet, you remember Guarneri? 11:58 SM: Oh, yeah, they were excellent. Yes. 12:00 MP: More than excellent. Guarneri, they had formed, I think, only about two years earlier (19)65. And they were in residence at Binghamton starting in about (19)67. And I do not read music, I had no real musical background at the time, other than being in the chorus in seventh grade and carousel, at junior high school 180, then being kicked out of Oklahoma, like, in eighth grade because I finally realized I could not sing. So I had no real musical background. But I would attend their rehearsals, they would do rehearsals in the dorms, in the lounges of the dorms. And when they were in Champlain where I was like, I would sit in. And to me, it was just fascinating to hear not just the great music, but they would play about four bars, and then they would stop and talk about it or argue about it. And they would hear things that I simply would not hear. And that has been a metaphor in some respects. I am a passionate listener of Minnesota Public Radio, classical Minnesota Public Radio, I listen all the time, I have not listened to anything else for a while. Probably could use a little variety. I have been on a radio show that they, oh excuse me, a feature that they do Minnesotans and their music. And they had me on about half dozen years ago, I talked about what kind of music moves me and talking about classical music. And I would tell the Guarneri story. That sticks with me that really does. What sticks with me also is life in the dorm in Champlain. When I was back nine years ago for the 40th, number of us from Champlain were interviewed and I made the point that something along the lines, when you live in a dorm you got to do what is right. Otherwise people will think you are a jerk. It is your family. And people think you are a jerk. That is not going to be good for you. So you work hard. I worked hard. Not that it was all that hard to do what was right. I am not expressing this real well. I was not going to do anything terribly wrong, but it was a matter of being just a good classmate, a good citizen. And that was my family and that sticks with me, we will leave various affairs of the heart out of this conversation. I was a political science major, and at times, I was really quite good. And other times I was not so good as a student, I was sporadic as that. I did not join a whole bunch of things. And this might be the segue to talking about various political and anti-war activities. Going back to growing up again, I grew up in a very let us just say, left-leaning environment. First of all, it was Queens, it was New York City, it was the (19)60s. My father had grown up, if not as a socialist, very much to the left, as was the whole family as was the entire environment. Jewish environment, lower middle class environment. He was a member of workman circle. Folks are familiar with that fraternal organization, which is interesting, very much on the left, but very much anti-communist. We can get into it, perhaps remind me, that I am all for conservatives who have been anti-communists, but most conservatives have never met one. Whereas people on the web certainly have not. It has been their responsibility in many instances, to purge bad communist influences from different kinds of organizations. We can talk about Max Kampelman, if you would like, you would have to remind me to do that. But at any rate, I was not perpetually part of that political ethos. And in (19)65, when I was 17, and William F. Buckley Jr., Bill Buckley, ran for mayor of New York, I worked on his campaign. Not in a senior position, I assure you, I handed out literature in Rockaway. And this was, let us just say any number of family members were taken aback by this. And they were hoping that it was a phase but it was not a phase. There was something about Buckley that I responded to quite well, there was something about politics of him, responsible right side of the aisle that I responded to quite well. And, in keeping with that, I supported US policy in Vietnam when I was in high school and through my freshman year at-at the City University College Center in New York City Community College. And I was still supportive of US policy when I got to Binghamton in the fall of (19)67. Needless to say, the environment was quite different. Not that anybody was thinking over the head change. It was not until, if I recall correctly around December of (19)67, that I began to think differently, Harrison Salisbury, the journalist from Minnesota actually, came to town to give a lecture. And he made it clear to me at the time that for the United States to win, it would have to do some things that would simply be unacceptable, such as "Bomb the dikes," as I recall him saying. And in time, during that period, I came out against US policy. A key point to keep in mind here is that while many of the people in the anti-war movement, particularly those who were clearly on the left, wanted, wanted the US to lose, and who thought that American involvement in Southeast Asia was a sign of US evil. I, on the other hand, did not view it as a good thing if the United States was to lose, and that it was not, American involvement of Vietnam was not sign of anything sinister about the United States. But it had been a mistake, it was a well-intentioned albeit mistake, to get involved in the way that we did. And sometime as we approached, got into my senior year, as you may recall, that was when I suspect you may have talked to other people about this, that a coalition was pulled together. Under, if I recall correctly, the heading was a student mobilization committee. And by the way, I have on my wall poster that we did. That said, something about- I can get exact language if I get up and walk four feet, about, talking about the war, talking about it together at the courthouse at noon, on October 15 (19)69 which corresponded with the big first student mobilization day in DC. And I was asked to be, or wound up, as a member of that coalition, we were talking about good friends like Ivan Charter, with whom I am still very much in touch with. I interviewed him for the last book. And we have spoken to friends with Kathy and we plan on being at Binghamton for our 50th come next year. Elliot Maisie was part of that as well. If you remember, if you have ever heard the name, Peter Gellert, GELLERT, Peter was a member of the Socialist Workers Party, a real-life Marxist. Who still is, by the way is living in Mexico has been there for a long time. He was part of the coalition. And I became in some ways the spokesman for this group, Ivan was the chair of great leadership skills. Elliot made the great organizational skills. I was the spokesman because I could get along reasonably well with all elements in this coalition. And I spoke reasonably well, interested in the media. So I was the one on October 15 (19)69, to represent SMC on the podium, in front of City Hall during that during that demonstration. Julian Bond, by the way, was in town and he also spoke and- 22:51 SM: Wow. 22:51 MP: -what I recall, it was the women in the crowd being far-far more interested in what he had to say than what I had to say. So, I was quite involved in antiwar activities, though, my interpretation of things, my sense of the country was often quite different from those of many of the people at school. 23:26 SM: Yeah, I, what is amazing about those years of Binghamton, I can remember being in the Union many times and, and the theatre group would, Guerrilla Theater would come in. Do you remember that happening all the time? Where the– 23:40 MP: Vaguely [crosstalk] 23:41 SM: Yeah, I think they come out of nowhere. And I have done some studies on Guerilla Theater during the (19)60s, and it was so very creative, very anti-war. Then there was another event that you might remember that really, I came to school one morning, and the entire quad in front of the administration building had signs on it. And it was like, they were all anti-war signs. And a group- 24:07 MP: Yeah, I vaguely recall that as well, that might have been the year prior, but I could be wrong. 24:13 SM: Yeah. Well, I do not think the administration liked the fact that it was done. But- 24:17 MP: I suspect not, no. 24:17 SM: [laughs] No, but it was almost there was no space on that quad there were so many signs put up and it was it was very well done. You walk through it. And then I can remember also when Governor Rockefeller came to campus to open the garden there near the theater department, that that open area there and I remember students protesting on Vestal Parkway and trying to block him coming in because they he kind of represented the establishment and so forth. And then of course the-the Harpur did not have any, they did not allow ROTC on campus and whenever the military recruiters came, the students protested in the administration building. So, there is, there is a lot. 25:00 MP: Yeah, I protested. I was opposed to those protests. I remember when Rockefeller was on campus, and I was very much opposed to the protests against him. As I say, I was not [inaudible] at that point this was prior to (19)69. I was, my goodness, by the student radical standards of the day, I was some kind of right winger, I would imagine. But I was opposed to various protests of various kinds. I was, frankly, I was more of a moderate, I was more of an establishmentarian. As I said before, the key was that I did not view American involvement in Vietnam or anyplace else as a sign that we were a rotten nation, did not see it that way at all. 25:55 SM: If you were describ- if you were to put a label, and I know, I do not like labels many times but if you were to put a label on yourself, you told me about your high school years and your first year at Cooney. What about when you were Harper would you con- be considered a conservative, a liberal or you do not want to be the either-either one? 26:14 MP: Well working backwards, I am the founder of a conservative free market think tank in Minnesota. We have been up and running for 29 years. I worked in the Reagan administration at the end of the US Department of Education in the first couple of years. The first Bush administration, well a year each I suspect, this was back in (19)87 through (19)90. So in real ways, I am a conservative now. I arrived at Binghamton, as I was saying, liking Bill Buckley. I modeled, by the way, a senator of the American Experiment the think tank, after Bill Buckley in many ways, civil and academic. And we would have people on this show. And they would be quite decent to each other. But the conversation was vivid. That is how I to make American Experiment. In many ways, this is exactly how we have been for going on three decades. I would have viewed myself by (19)69, (19)70. I was, you know it is a good question. Left, right. Did not does not feel right. At this moment, thinking back that way. Not that that sentence makes any sense. Maybe the best way. A moderate of the times or a moderate- among antiwar activists, I was more moderate than many. How is that? 27:52 SM: Mitch, that is a good description. I think it is excellent. The- would you consider the campus itself, now consider the student body during that time that you were at Binghamton, and you can include not only the time that you were a student there, but I know you also worked for the president. That that came into power after Dr. Deering. Would you consider the campus an activist campus? 28:38 MP: Following back up for a second, I did not work in the administration until (19)72. And that was when [inaudible] Bill McGrath became president. It was not right after Deering. I think Stew Gordon was right after Deering. So there was this interlude, and I was well out of school by the time Peter arrived in (19)72. Was it an activist campus? Sure. in spirit, we were blowing up things, as was the case some other places and that was good. That was very good. But it certainly was. Call it a counterculture ish kind of activism, in many ways when I got there. And when did you get there, by the way? 29:39 SM: Well I got there in (19)67. 29:41 MP: Yeah, that is exactly when I got there. If I recall correctly, the enrollment was a grand total of 2700. 29:46 SM: Yes, it is yes. 29:49 MP: And in terms of some demographics, and I have written about this, I cannot recall more than a half a dozen, conceivably a dozen African American students on campus at the time, things there and elsewhere in American education, higher education changed dramatically starting a year later after Dr. King was assassinated. So this was an exceedingly white place, an exceedingly downstate place, an exceedingly Jewish place. Other places has hippies, we had sickies as you may recall, I was not a sickie by any stretch for heaven's sakes, I was a baseball player. And I remember writing a letter through what was still the colonial news about how the sickies were making an absolute mess of the Student Center. They were slobs, they were leaving stuff all over the place and it was a political statement, I suspect, to be slobs. I was not that. I might not have been the tidiest person that my wife now can tell you that that is indeed the case. But I was certainly not have that lefty counterculture artistic spirit. I was a social science major. We played baseball. But I got along well, as I have always gotten along well with just about everybody. 31:31 SM: I think one of the things, you look at the culture, I look a lot at the music that was brought to the campus during that timeframe that we were there. And when you think of the names of Richie Havens, The Turtles. 31:47 MP: Yeah. 31:48 SM: Yeah, you have got The Chambers Brothers. You got Judy Collins, you have got Ella Fitzgerald. Remember she sang in concert there along- 31:57 MP: I was at that one, I remember that one. 31:59 SM: Yeah, that was unbelievable. Duke Ellington came, Oscar Peterson, Paul Butterfield Blues was loved by the Harpur students, they loved him. And-and of course, we had Mountain there and-and Arlo Guthrie and Lovin' Spoonful, the music, and of course, how can you forget the concert with Iron Butterfly, the concert that they thought they had two sets booked and they only had one and the Harpur students were on stage breaking the guy's drumsticks because they wanted to have two sets. But the music was really kind of counterculture when you think about it. 32:39 MP: And yeah, I will buy that. So, you are talking to someone who had a crush on Lainie Kazan from (19)63 to (19)70. So musically, I was not necessarily in that spirit. I was a [inaudible] well want to be forever known in the archives as being an old fart. Yeah, sure. Why not. 33:13 SM: [laughs] Okay, I got that down there now, Nick. And that has to be quoted at the 50th anniversary, the old fart. [laughs] I think you have already answered this one too, did you know at BU that you wanted, what you wanted to become in life? Well, you know, you are talking about your experiences of you know, difficulty with school in the beginning, and then becoming a very good student. And again, doing excellent on tests coming to a very academic school and Harpur, and being a political science major. I know you have gone on to create a- an unbelievable organization, something you should be very proud of. I mean, historic. But did you did you know what you were going to become? How are you evolving during that time as a person as you were approaching that graduation day in (19)70? 34:06 MP: Good question. Part of the context is where any number of our classmates simply assume they wanted to be doctors or lawyers. I did not grow up in that kind of environment. I had high school friends and junior high school friends who did grow up in that environment and did become lawyers and doctors and rich people. But that simply was not my environment with lower middle class. I did want to be a lawyer I think for about a day and a half while I was at Harpur but I overcame, it must have been a drug reaction or something or other. What I recall, I recall wanting to be a political speech writer. I could write well, I was interested in politics. And there was something about being a speech writer that intrigued me. That or I assumed that I would wind up in a decent job in middle management someplace. So my aspirations in that instance, were not all that high. And were constricted by the fact that I just did not know much about more elevated professions earlier on. Also, it is interesting, I think back. I probably felt more pressure every semester, that Binghamton, not because it was Binghamton, but because taking college seriously taking, well, in this instance, taking my undergraduate life seriously, it was hard. And I had to force myself to do my work sometimes, because I was not consistently disciplined. And at some level, I do not want to overstate this, but at some level, I wanted to drop acid about every semester. I never got close to doing that. But that was the sense that I had and when I talked about sometimes being a good student, sometimes not. There were a couple of classes where I was the only "A" there in that particular class. [inaudible] I think, Richard Dec Legion, and another. On other occasions, I just screwed up terribly. And as things turned out, I did wind up as a speechwriter. I wound up later on as a speech writer for Peter McGraw. When we got out here to Minnesota, I was a speech writer out here for three years. And several years later, I was the speech writer for about two years for the governor, for a guy by the name of Al Quie, QUIE, that was (19)81, (19)82. So that worked out, and I did do my stints in Washington at the Department of Education. I was an editorial writer and a columnist for The St. Paul paper. That was (19)83 to (19)87. So that was in keeping with a spirit of what I was thinking earlier, I had never viewed myself thinking back while I was in school as a potential journalist. I thought I wrote well enough, frankly, I knew I wrote well enough. But I never thought I could write fast enough to be a journalist. And yeah, here is a, here is a chapter that is interesting. You remember, David Bernstein, who was the editor and co-owner of the Sun-Bulletin who ran for Congress in (19)70. 38:15 SM: Yes. 38:17 MP: I was on his staff. I got paid $50 a week, somehow I could live on that. And I was an advanced person, I guess, I guess, the best way of describing what I did, and he lost as to be expected, as a Democrat. And I wound up right after that, working for him, pulling together a collection of his editorials. And he wrote one virtually every day, from the middle of (19)61, when he bought the paper and this is now at the end of (19)70. And his wife, Adele, was very much interested in doing a collection of his pieces. He was a brilliant writer, as clear as clean as you could possibly imagine. Got a job as working for him. And I read every single editorial he wrote during that period, and I would pull out excerpts. And the idea was to make a book out of them. And it would have been a fine book, but he lost interest. But this was a number of recessions ago and every time I finished a degree it seemed that it was a recession. And I needed a job. And he offered me a job as a reporter at the Sun-Bulletin. And I turned down because I as I say, I did not think I could write fast enough. He offered is again, I turned them down again. And by the third time I said yes, needed a job and I remember to the extent that I could remember anything for the first three weeks, hardly ever picking up my hand from my desk. I was concentrating so hard on what I was doing. But I was a reporter there, and did that for 13 months until getting to the heart of our conversation. I guess in some respect, though, this is now the (19)70s. I resigned one morning at 1:30 in the morning, after doing my police rounds, I was a police reporter at that point. And this was a night Nixon announced the mining of Haiphong and the bombing of Hanoi. 40:34 SM: Right. 40:35 MP: And I said that it, and I did civil disobedience by 7:30 in the morning, in front of the old, I guess was the old courthouse or the federal courthouse. In, in in Binghamton. So that was the end of that portion of my journalistic career. I wound up again, as an editorial writer at The Pioneer Press newspaper in St. Paul, state from (19)83 to (19)87. It was after doing that for four years, I went off to Washington. I did not give you a clear sequencing of that period. If you want, I can do that. 41:20 SM: I know, you also got your PhD at the University of Minnesota, correct? 41:25 MP: Yeah, I am going to forget that. 41:26 SM: Oh, okay. [laughs] 41:29 MP: The idea, the idea was for me when I came out here with-with Peter, in (19)74. And I can, now that is a good story, frankly, if you want to get into that though it is not the (19)60s. The idea was for me to work for him part time, and go to graduate school, part time. And once I got out here, I knew that was not going to work, there was too much work to do for Peter, and I needed more money than being paid half time. So I essentially put off graduate school for three years, I think, four courses during that interim. And then it was time to go back full time to graduate school. So I, I left Peter's employ in (19)77. And I was a full time graduate student from (19)77 to (19)80. And I wound up doing frankly, about the fastest PhD, I know. I worked very, very hard. I was terrifically disciplined and the fact that I had just gotten divorced, and I had a lot of time on my hands. And I finished off in (19)80 and I was I was good as a, as a graduate student, wrote a, if I do say so, an exceedingly good dissertation on Jewish attitudes towards affirmative action admissions in higher education. 42:54 SM: Wow. 42:55 MP: And I finished off and found out that the academic world and other worlds could care less that I had just done that. 43:05 SM: Well, that is– 43:06 MP: What I– 43:07 SM: Wow. 43:07 MP: -that is working for Al Quie-took a while. But I wound up working as a speech writer. And my first thought was, I had been a speech writer. And I went to graduate school to get a doctorate. So, I would not necessarily have to be a speech writer, I could write for myself. But then I realized I needed a job again, and too being a speechwriter for a governor who I respected a great deal was, as they say, not chopped liver. And that turned out to be a great experience. 43:40 SM: Before we go on to the-the organization that you created, the major organization, I want to ask some just some general questions about the (19)60s, the (19)60s and the early (19)70s. What has been the overall impact of your generation, the boomer generation on America? And, you know, if it is positive, why and if it is negative why? 44:06 MP: I like macro questions, whether or not I am prepared to answer I do not know. The clichéd answer, which is not to say it is incorrect, is that the (19)60s were a time of expanding social justice. Women, certainly. racial minorities, certainly. Maybe the early Inklings when it comes to gay rights, the environment, certainly all that is, is well known and much of it is to be admired and be thankful for, no question. At the same time you I often view the (19)60s as when the United States got real close to having a nervous breakdown. And that was not good. Not necessarily as logical and as rational sometimes, as we needed to be. Too emotional. What do they, I forget who wrote it. Could have been a conservative rabbi. This goes back some time I am guessing in the (19)80s when he paid his respects as I do, to religious conservatives, mostly Christian, who saved the country from going nuts in Thailand. And that-that sense of order, which is not to say, an excessive or undemocratic, unfree sense of order, but I believe an ordered liberty, let us put it that way. I like that term. I liked the concept. And we needed people on the right to say, "Hey, let us slow down, let us think this one through, let us not get completely crazy. Let us not assume for a moment that the Vietcong were really the good guys and they were a bunch of agrarian reformers." Rooting for the communists to win is never a good idea. So, I look back on the (19)60s, I am proud of what I did, for the most part. I wish we had done something different in the antiwar movement. Without question, we thought too poorly of the country. Without question we treated soldiers dreadfully. Without question, we assumed the other side were a bunch of good guys often, and to our activisting. So, it very much of a of a mixed bag. You know, I think that the one time, I am not real proud of how I viewed matters back then, was the night of Kent State. 47:39 SM: Oh yeah. 47:39 MP: Which was what, something like May 4th of (19)70, something like that? 47:43 SM: Yeah, yes. 47:44 MP: And we had a big meeting at I guess it was in the, could have been women's gym, what was then the gym-gym, I guess? And remember the name Tommy Tuchman? 48:00 SM: Oh, yes. 48:02 MP: Tommy was a friend. He was up there speaking. And he was he was being a tad extreme and crowd was going nuts in support of what he was saying, and this was not good. And I find myself caught up in that. I had been really, really angered by Kent State and that was one time I was going over the line. And being a radical in spirit, and say I am not a radical person by any stretch and have not been. I think some of the excessive identity politics of this era now and going back decades, certainly grew out of the (19)60s. I think we have spent far too much time in this country, though I understand why focusing on questions of race and ethnicity. Not good. And that certainly grew out of the out of the (19)60s. I used the term back then. It came to me in about, might have been around (19)72. But do not hold me to that, naive cynicism. And there was a lot of naive cynicism at the time. In many ways. I saw that and still see that as a paramount sense at the time. It is one thing to be cynical, if you have to use the expression, been around the block several times, you have some age to and you are cynical. I think [inaudible] cynical is overstating matters, you should not be, but it is understandable. But when you are 19 years old, and you do not know very much, and you are cynical, that does not fit. It does not fit the decency of this nation. It is not good for your mental health. It is not in keeping with reality. And to the, again, the extent that I have problems with the (19)60s into the (19)70s, it is precisely that. And when we talk about the (19)60s, as you well know, it is not just the (19)60s, it is well into the (19)70s. 50:47 SM: Yes. 50:48 MP: And so much of the craziness. And the rest that we associate with the (19)60s, stretch into the (19)70s, and often got started in the (19)70s. 51:06 SM: And, Mitch, I want your thoughts on this too, when I interviewed Lee Edwards, and of course, he is a great historian himself. And he teaches a course on the (19)60s at the at a Catholic school in Washington right now. And one thing that stuck out in that interview more than anything else was when historians or sociologists or people who write about the (19)60s or experienced the (19)60s, it is always about the liberal activists. You do not hear– 51:34 MP: Right. 51:34 SM: -about the conservative activist, and we are talking about when you talk about the antiwar movement, the Young Americans for Freedom are never discussed. Yet they were conservative, but they were against the war, too. 51:49 MP: You are absolutely right. And I think I mentioned this to you in one of our previous conversations. And I am happy you have brought that up. Yeah, it shows a certain myopia on my part, that I am just thinking of the left, but without question. [inaudible] were the roots of Goldwater, they were the roots of Reagan, as it turned out a dozen years later, if you were starting off in (19)68. Absolutely, absolutely true. A couple of books. I think I have mentioned Rick Perlstein to you. 52:28 SM: Yes-yes. Yes. I think I have all his books. 52:31 MP: Yeah, who is not a relative. He spells his name wrong. That is the reason why. But I thought his book on Goldwater was terrific. And I was not the only person on the right, who viewed it as terrifically fair, as it was, and he is a person of the left. So that is, and one needs to take all that into account. In many ways. That spirit, that movement has had more to do with shaping the nation, or at least as much over the subsequent decades as stuff on the left. And David from his book about the (19)70s. I forget what it was called. But he writes about how so much of what we associate with the (19)60s is really the (19)70s that has shaped so much. Oh, absolutely [inaudible] you. 53:29 SM: So, there is this obser- Mitch, there is another observation. If you remember Colonel Harry Summers, who passed away in I think around (20)00, he wrote the almanac on the Vietnam War, and, and we were going to have at West Chester University to talk at our traveling Vietnam memorial. But he- 53:48 MP: Were ya? 53:49 SM: -he became so sick, he could not come. But he said he, well his speech was going to center on the fact that when you when professors are teaching, the (19)60s in on university campuses today, he says what they always forget to conclude in the teaching, is the military point of view. I am not, he said, "I am not saying it is right, but you have got to include that if you are going to be, you know, teach the teaching the reality of what it was like back then. It is not just the antiwar movement. It is also the, you know, the military point of view, and again you can like it or dislike it. But there is truth to that." 54:31 MP: Of course, that is true. And I am sitting here thinking about how I have focused on one side of the equation or not the other over the last 40 minutes or so. But at Binghamton and that is what we are talking about, principally. 54:49 SM: Right. 54:50 MP: Things on the right side of the aisle simply were not part of the equation. 54:53 SM: I agree. 54:55 MP: And to the extent there was any sense of the right and left, right in those times were fundamentally different from the left, right now. You would think about, remember Joe Pyne, the? 55:13 SM: Yes, his TV show, yes. 55:16 MP: Yeah. I suspect if anybody thought about what was on the right, and it was crazy people like Joe Pyne. And so there, there was not a sense for the most part of articulate, educated, sensible, enlightened notions of the right or people on the right at the time on-on campus. I just do not recall that. 55:42 SM: I remember the Joe Pyne interview with Paul Krassner. [laughs] It was hilarious. Paul was, Paul, you know Paul just passed away recently, and one of the original yippies but and but it was classic to see the two of them together on TV. A real fast response to this, I think we may have already covered it, if you were to describe the students or overall youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, please describe in your own words, the qualities you most admire or dislike. 56:18 MP: Alright, let us start on the negative side. And let us use the term I just used, naive cynicism. To what extent that that was true, or how many young people it covered, I cannot say. But let us use when Rockefeller came to campus. That really did not have anything to do with the war. I think I was a sophomore at the time I had just arrived. And the idea of protesting a governor, Republican though he might be because that is what students should do. Complaining about this or that, that to me was not responsible. It was not mature, you know, jumping ahead. 10 years ago, 11 years ago during the recession, SUNY students, I think throughout the system, not just Binghamton at the time, were protesting that tuition would go up by something like $300 to $400 a semester because of the cutback because the nation was in the worst recession, worst economic downturn since the Great Depression. And I wrote a column up here. I think it ran in the Star Tribune, the Minneapolis paper, about this refusal to acknowledge the importance of personal sacrifice, that the nation was going through this atrocious period. And students were complaining big time, they were whining about having to pay a couple of hundred bucks more of a semester, which I just viewed as unrealistic. I view that as selfish, or viewed it as immature. And I had just seen or a number of years, I guess a number of years earlier a number of years earlier. Remember the movie Radio Days? Yes. Woody Allen's Radio Days, which was set in Rockaway, by the way, and Rockaway Beach about seven miles from where I grew up. And in order for that family to make do they had an aunt living in that small house and they had, may have had a grandparent or two. And that is what people did during the (19)30s, they-they make necessary sacrifices to make it work. And now we are in, the year was we are approaching (20)10. And we were in this terrible situation in this country. And students. We are refusing to pay an extra couple of hundred bucks which is not going to be easy. But a couple of pairs of sneakers would do it frankly. And so that is the connection. When I was talking about Rockefeller a moment ago, a refusal to recognize some reality and the refusal to do what is right. And in some ways, for all the decent things young people did at the time, that is also what I recall. I thought protesting Rockefeller, because he was not building something on campus quickly enough or something along those lines. That simply was not my style. 1:00:31 SM: Well, I remember the papers. And I think he was quoted as saying that he did not know what the why they were protesting because of the fact that he put together the transportation roads, all through the thruway. He was responsible for the Thruway and they were protesting me and I put the Thruway together saying, hey, I know that came up in the conversation. 1:00:53 MP: Yeah, that part I do not remember. What I, tell me if you have ever heard this, that one of the reasons some of the campuses are laid out the way they are. I was told Albany's campus is this, so that it looked good from the air. And so if Rocky was flying over, he could tell somebody that he built that fine looking campus below. I have no idea if that is true. 1:01:17 SM: I do not either. 1:01:19 MP: Makes a good story. 1:01:20 SM: Yeah. That is a just another general question. How important were the student protests in ending the war? And [crosstalk]. And the second part, would you consider this time I think you have already talked about it, you already made a commentary about the nervousness that was going on in our society during the (19)60s and early (19)70s. Would you consider this time the closest we ever got to another civil war after the Civil War? 1:01:49 MP: No, is the short answer on that one, never reached back stage, I am talking more of a social, cultural nervous breakdown, as opposed to a political one where there would be coups and people shooting each other, I never viewed it that way. It is more subtle than that. I am fundamentally a culturalist, so that is what I am referring to, that portion of, of life. 1:02:18 SM: Have you-? 1:02:19 MP: The protests certainly led to, had something to do with the fact of the rest of society getting frustrated. And opposed to the war. I think most grownups viewed things as differently. They were not going to beat up on soldiers. And they did not think this was another sign that the United States being the worst place in the universe but had reached the state, "This is not working. We are killing people we are getting killed with spending an enormous amount of money, and this is not going away." So, I am sure students had a lot to do with precipitating that question. 1:03:02 SM: Have you changed your opinions of the boomers? You are one of them. 1:03:07 MP: The boomers? 1:03:08 SM: I over time, your-your opinions of your generation, say when you were in Harpur at, Harpur and graduate school, and maybe the first 15 years of your career, and compare it to now, have you changed- You know, then we are talking 74 million and I would have to correct that of the 74 million only about 7 percent were ever involved in activism. But that is– 1:03:32 MP: I never romant- I never romanticized, at least I do not think I did, that generation that for no other reason, there are too many people in it [laughs] to find too many distinctive themes. I have problems when people now characterize the Generation X or the millennials or. There is something to be said in each instance, there are some themes, but and now that you think back also about how there were these conservative stirrings during that period that were growing in strength. Here is another aspect of the [inaudible]. And I think a fair amount of religion- my wife is ordained, she is an Episcopal Deacon, we are an interesting family. And I am in church every week, I support my wife. And the dissertation I wrote 39 years ago had a religious theme; much of what I write has cultural themes, social things, religious themes. Thinking back, I have a hard time remembering anybody specifically, who went to church every Sunday. In part because hung out with so many Jews. There was a kosher kitchen, or at least I think that got started, might have gained some strength after I graduated. But I really did not have anything to do be frank about it with observant Jews who ate at the kosher kitchen. Meanwhile, there were 10s of millions of young people and others in the (19)60s into the (19)70s, who were traditionally religiously animated, and religiously animated in new ways. And that sense. At least I never had that sense of that was salient at all. At Harpur, which speaks to the fact, one might argue if one was being a tad harsh, that we were in Ireland. We were not in like the rest of the nation where that was the [inaudible] where religion was concerned, religious observance was concerned. I think about, I think about that a fair amount. And I think about if you want to update matters, and at the risk of my being simply wrong or unfair, bigoted in a fashion, when people talk about spending Sunday mornings reading the New York Times, well, with all due respect to people who read the New York Times, the people I now hang out with mostly go to church on-on Sunday mornings, and historically, lots and lots of American Blacks and lots of Americans have done that and still do that, though the number's decreasing. But that was never the sense in the (19)60s. So you want to view that as an indictment of the time. Sure, I will buy that. 1:06:59 SM: Yeah, I can, I can re-, I went to church every day when I was a little kid, and then through sixth grade, and then all of a sudden went to high school. I did not go to, we did not, something happened in the (19)60s. The (19)50s, everybody was at church or synagogue, it seemed like. 1:07:15 MP: Right-right. 1:07:15 SM: One of the things too, and before we go any further here is the relationship between Harpur College and the City of Binghamton and the Binghamton community. My main reaction particularly around that (19)69 to (19)70 period, when the buses were going back and forth into the city taking students back and so forth or hitchhiking, I did a lot of hitchhiking. There was a dislike-there seemed to be a tremendous dislike of for the, for many of the residents of Binghamton, toward the Harpur students. I can remember Dr. Kadish, my history professor once in a class, just a general comment, he said, he said if you go down if you go into the community, make sure you do not wear your Harpur jacket. 1:08:00 MP: Yeah. 1:08:00 SM: And-and then also, if you remember Mitch, around the (19)69, they were telling girls which, excuse me, telling women and, if you are going to hitchhike, go as a twosome. And so there was a fear that there you know, might get beat up in Binghamton or whatever, because most of Binghamton was pro war, obviously, in the Binghamton community, a lot of their sons and sons are going off to war. And here we had the students protesting on campus against the war. Did you have a sense that you do, were you, outside of writing for the paper, which is important, but did you sense as a student that Binghamton did not like Harpur? That that is the community not the political- 1:08:49 MP: Yeah. No, I would not use dislike as-as the verb though, there were some without question. Distance, I would view it as a matter of distance, we were significantly culturally different in some ways. And first of all, downstate, upstate, Jewish, non-Jewish. And one does not have to use such differences or tensions and hateful terms and they are what they are. One of my favorite examples of this, I was already working for Peter McGraw. Remember Jerry Komisar? 1:09:32 SM: Who? Jerry? 1:09:35 MP: I will spell the name, [inaudible], KOMISAR. He was an economist, a labor economist if you remember, and he was an assistant to the president and he was an assistant to Peter McGraw. He was the academic assistant to him. And Jerry later became the president of the University of Alaska System, but we were sitting with each other in a town gown meeting was one night, someplace on campus. And at the time, as you may recall, locals thought they had a harder time getting their kids into school there than kids from Queens did, when the exact opposite is true. Kids from Susquehanna country needed weaker academic credentials to get into school there. And some guy stands up and he is making the point that, the incorrect point, and referred to a lot of Binghamton Harpur students- and we called them still Harpur at the time- he called them downstate overachievers. And I looked at Jerry and Jerry looked at me and we just began laughing. What a wonderful euphemism for downstate [inaudible]. Downstate overachievers, that was, that was just terrific. 1:11:00 SM: That is exactly what we want in school. [laughs] 1:11:03 MP: My-my, my sense is now from afar, and I have heard it, that ever since Binghamton went division one in athletics, town gown relations are a whole bunch of better because the locals could invest in big time college sports now- reasonably big-time college sports. And that has helped in the fact that it is a major university and not just a small liberal arts college. Yeah, all that all that is true. 1:11:36 SM: I think you already-already know your answer to this, because you have already made a mention of the negativity that some of these students or young people had back in the (19)60s. But there was this feeling. And I remember talking to my friends especially when I was in grad school at Ohio State, would you describe the boomer generation as the most unique generation in our history? And that was the communication when I was in graduate school, in the early (19)70s, that we were different, that we were going to be the change agents for the betterment of a society, this generation saw something wrong and tried to right it. And then that was really the connection to all the movements, whether it be the civil rights, the anti-war, the environmental LGBTA, Chicano, women's, Native American all of them was speaking up, making a difference, and that is what made this generation and his group so different. Your thoughts? 1:12:35 MP: A bit much. [laughter] 1:12:36 SM: Okay. 1:12:40 MP: Yeah, there is that moment of truth in all of that without question. But at the same time, boomers did not have a monopoly on the truth. It did not have a monopoly on responsibility. Of the whatever. What did you say? 73 million? 1:13:02 SM: 74. We are now the second- millennials are larger now. 1:13:06 MP: Yeah. I assure you, they were more people of that generation who were not of the spirit of Harpur students at the time, than were. And yeah so as I said before, I-I resist overgeneralization especially if they get overly romanticized, about any generation. But there are things that certainly happened and that younger folks should be old people were young at the time should be proud of. [crosstalk] I keep on coming back to my goodness, in terms of responsibility, a sense of sacrifice. How in the world could you compare boomers in that sense, to people who lived through a depression and then World War One, World War Two for heaven's sakes, my goodness. 1:14:04 SM: They saved the world. They did save the world. 1:14:09 MP: Without question. 1:14:12 SM: I would like, a couple of the interviews that I did, I would like your thoughts on Todd Gitlin. You may know Todd, was the second founder of SDS, he was after Tom Hayden was the leader. He has gone on to be a big scholar, has written books on the (19)60s and everything and I had a great interview with Todd at-at NYU quite a few years ago, and he said, he does not like this, putting generations into years. Like boomers (19)46 to (19)64, Generation X (19)64 to (19)80 all this kind of stuff. He and secondly, I am at my next point is when I interviewed Richie Havens, who actually performed for the first time on a college campus at Binghamton, and we need to promote this more because Richie told me that during the interview, you I was at that concert and then I asked him, "Do you remember the Bing-?" "That is my first time I went to a college campus!" Well, then we need to let the Binghamton University know this more. But Richie said something very important. He said, I may not be a boomer, but I am one because we are talking about the spirit of the era, forget the years, it is the spirit. And if you look at people born, say between (19)37 and (19)45, who were the leaders of the antiwar movement? Some of the top musicians, they were born in that era, the Rennie Davis' just the yippies. They were, they were, they were all born before (19)46. So, when you go through the interview process on looking at the (19)60s and certainly trying to confine the people that were involved in all these important or maybe not so important activities, you have got to think of what Richie is saying because he says, I am a proud boomer and I was born in (19)41. Sure. It is about spirit. 1:16:07 MP: That is true in terms of the early leadership of the antiwar movement, if we are talking about and let us say, for the sake of argument, (19)65, that would have meant that the oldest boomers were 19. And let us just say a bunch of 19-year olds were not going to start a national movement. Sure, why not. 1:16:35 SM: Do you feel the (19)60s and early (19)70s generation are having problems with healing and I bring this up because Jan, Jan Scruggs wrote the book To Heal a Generation, which is his book when the wall was built in (19)82 in Washington. And it was the first time that veterans felt that they were welcomed home from that war. And he talks about the healing but I have already interviewed Jan too, and Jan says the healing is it was meant for the Vietnam veterans and their families and for the Vietnam veterans themselves, and hopefully this would transfer to into the nation itself. But I asked this question to some of the early interviewees, like Gaylord Nelson. And so everybody's response was kind of different. Healing is trying to get over something, and I do not think we have gotten over this war at all. I- just your thoughts on the healing process? 1:17:34 MP: Well, you framed the question in some respects, in real respects focusing on the military, and how people who served have felt. And as someone who was not in the military, I cannot identify- I would like to- cannot identify real well with that sense of abandonment, let us say, intellectually, I can [inaudible] I suspect I cannot. But my first thought when you started asking the question was that whatever the-the result of Vietnam in terms of divisions in the country's build, let us see if I can express this, have less to do with different sides still fighting over the wisdom or the justice of the war. Rather, it has more to do with a general sense, I come back to the sense of cynicism in this country. And when talking about that, it is impossible for me to separate it from Watergate. So to the extent that there is this ethos has been for decades now, of this respect for politicians, and cynicism about the ability of government to get things right, it has to do with a loss of trust that grew out of both Vietnam, certainly but then Watergate and the combination of the two has been in many ways toxic. And there are straight lines from that to the nastiness of politics now for the last number of decades, the "us" and the "them" and [crosstalk] 1:20:35 SM: Yep-yep. 1:20:35 MP: But I am trying to make the point that I think that this is something different from different sides of the war in the United States still trying to fight it out. No, Vietnam is too far away now for that to be the case. But there has been a spirit of a lack of unity, and trust going back all that time, that is that. I do not know if I am making sense. 1:21:04 SM: Yep, very good observations, certainly. I even wrote a note here we-we as a nation, are still divided here in (20)19. So, it seems like today, it is us against them, it is us against them. It is never-never "We the People," which is what we are supposed to be about. And the-the ability to listen to each other to be not shouted down toward each other. I mean, there was a period even when I was at Ohio State University in grad school, that we were creating dialogue between the races between white people and Black people. And, and then there was, then then then there was a period when there was too much dialogue, and no action was happening. We need results, and-and now I am worried that we are back to an era where the dialogue is gone. And so it is just so many things, what is the lasting legacy of the (19)60s generation and the boomer generation in your view? 1:22:14 MP: Let the pause signify that I am thinking. 1:22:16 SM: Yep, that is okay. 1:22:18 MP: The lasting legacy of the boomer generation. As we have been talking, on the plus side, great advances, when it comes to questions of race, despite what we were just saying a moment ago, what you were saying a moment ago about distance, same thing where women are concerned, same thing where the environment is concerned, though, on each instance and more I can always point out excesses of various movements. And that is one of the jobs of a conservative it seems to me to point out where something is, somebody, some theme is getting carried away. There is a sense of the arrogance, of some thinking about the generation that, we were the greatest generation when in fact, the previous generation if you want to play that game was the greatest generation. 1:23:39 SM: What– 1:23:40 MP: To the extent, well to the sense that I am saying that some things have been overdone, that can leave the interpretation that one wanted to have to go the cliché route again, the (19)50s persists. And that is not what I am saying. So, once you recognize certain great failings of the (19)50s, the (19)50s were not all that bad. [laughs] 1:24:13 SM: I mean, I when I think of the (19)50s, I think I am just a kid you were you were both and you-you and I were a kid, and I kind of go back to those days, there seemed to be a lot of security, had your parents at home, I mean, and everything but then we all know what was happening to African Americans during that time, there was lynchings going on and things were being hid from us. So, it was not good for all Americans, just some Americans. How-? 1:24:39 MP: How about this? It is a-I have always said it is a big country, and you can find anything you want to find. How is that? 1:24:46 SM: Yep, very good. What role has activism played in the lives of boomers as they have aged? In particular, I am referring to that 7 percent that were involved in activism, and conservatives and liberals. Back in that era of the (19)60s and (19)70s, and have they carried, have they passed this on to their kids, who are their children and grandchildren? 1:25:12 MP: It is a brilliant answer, some have some have not. How do you define activists? Are we talking about people on campuses who led the way, who organized events, who ran the mimeograph machines and all, or are we talking about people who just showed up? It is October, let us have a demonstration. It is November, let us have a demonstration. Ooh, now it is the winter, it is too cold for a demonstration. Now it is April, let us have a demonstration. How's that for a cynical view? 1:25:48 SM: Yeah. Well, I yeah, that is a good point, because I am really referring to the doers and the ones that make things happen. So and, you know, and there were few and far between. However, when you look at 74 million and 7 percent it is still a large number. 1:26:03 MP: Well, here is my guess. And it is a guess, I will start with me. I have not been on a picket line since then, I have no interest in being on a picket line. I am not a picketing line kind of guy. But my entire career, virtually my entire career has had to do with the political issues, social issues, advocacy of one kind or another. So to that extent, I remain what I was, though in a different form. And I would imagine that it is true for lots and lots and lots of people, there are not necessarily so many barricades. But they are the ones putting together groups to make this better or that better or getting involved politically. It is not getting a bug, it is when your personality and your character are such that you must be involved with the great issues and the semi great issues of the day, chances are, we will continue one way or another, for a longer period of time. There will be interludes when you are raising families, I suspect, when you do not have enough time. But you get involved in various ways, in issues. And in this country there are many, many ways of getting involved. 1:27:40 SM: The, when I interviewed Bobby Muller, the founder of Vietnam Veterans of America, and he also was a co-winner of the Nobel Peace Prize on the landmine issues. He said when answering a question about the impact of what was the basic characteristics of the boomer generation, he said, the one thing that I can definitively say is true- and you have already brought it up- is there was a lack of trust in that generation. And there were reasons why: Watergate, the Gulf of Tonkin, which was a basically a lie that LBJ, he got us into the Vietnam War, and if you were young enough to remember this, as a sixth grader, which you both you and I were at this time, Eisenhower lying to the nation about the U2 incident. And he lied to the nation. And, and I never thought of that. And then of course, when Jerry Ford pardoned Richard Nixon, everybody was suspicious and did not trust Gerald Ford, in that even though he had not done anything wrong. But this lack of trust is certainly a characteristic that comes through over and over again. And it is not just lack of trust in our political leaders, but lack of trust in leaders of any kind, whether it be a minister, a rabbi, a corporate leader, a university president, anybody in a position of responsibility has seemed to be targets of many of those activists back then. 1:29:09 MP: Yeah, let me, I am sorry go on. 1:29:11 SM: No, go ahead. 1:29:17 MP: For all that I have said about a lack of trust, I personally am in fact the most trusting person I know. I do not attribute lousy motives to people unless I have a reason to do so. At the heart and soul center, the American Experiment is my commitment not to question motives if at all possible. I will question policies, I will question ideas, I will question what people say, but I will not question their basic decency or I will not question their motives. If I think back to Francis Gary Powers I suspect not too many of your- well if you are talking to older, yeah, they may remember Francis Gary Powers. So, if Eisenhower, and I never viewed what Eisenhower did as-as cynical, I viewed it as what presidents do when it comes to spying for [laughter], when it comes to espionage, when it came to the Gulf of Tonkin I assumed that LBJ was playing it straight at the time, it was only later on that I realized probably was not. Al Quie, who was the governor I worked for, whose biography I later wrote, he was in Congress at the time, and he really did not like LBJ. And he became very close to being the only member of the House to vote against it, because he thought Johnson was lying. Simply could not get himself to be the only member of the House to do that. And he, [laughs] I think, still regrets that. With Jerry Ford, I was not cynical about that at all. I argued. I thought that that was in the best interest of the nation, not good to have a former president of the United States in prison. If we are talking about healing, let us get on with it. Are you still there? 1:31:30 SM: Yep. I am here. 1:31:32 MP: I am hearing some-or somebody is trying to call me, but we will forget about that. [crosstalk] So, I-I, I start from a position of trust and I do think it has served me and it has served, centered the American Experiment very well. I am not talking about innocence, I am not talking about naïveté. I am talking about human decency, trusting people to the extent that one can and one can do it, and should do it to a significant degree. 1:32:13 SM: Before we [inaudible], my next question is the question before I want to talk about your organization. In the (19)60s, what and (19)70s, what was the event that you felt had the greatest impact on your life? Something that happened in the (19)60s and (19)70s. 1:32:41 MP: Kent State was one of them. That was the only time really that I thought I was thinking too negatively about my country. For a period I could see that night how mobs came to be and how they could do terribly destructive things. That was the spirit of that evening, and that, I am not just that evening. Sidebar, it may sound trivial in talking about mobs. Do you remember there was a demonstration on the Esplanade about, the decision had come down from high that doors had to be kept six inches open or something and guys could not be entertaining women in their dorm rooms or something along those lines. And there was this demonstration, and some of the speakers were getting really agitated, and the crowd was getting really agitated. I am thinking to myself, this is a mob psychology, has to do with having-having to put a sock on your doorknob or something. That was that was that was the psychology in a lower tense way of the mob. Well, I mentioned what, what got me thinking differently about the war, beyond the fact that the social and political pressures as well as the facts were surrounding me while I was at Binghamton when I arrived at Binghamton in the fall of (19)67 was that Harrison Salisbury speech. I go back to that speech, it was a Binghamton event that had a significant influence, and so let us go with that. 1:34:46 SM: I want to talk about your center. 1:34:48 MP: Okay. 1:34:49 SM: Yeah. When did you first come up with the idea that you wanted to create this, and go through the process of how you created it 10 time- you know, and just into what is the basic principles? What were your goals? So you can share it with the world, because that is what this tape is doing is sharing it with the world. 1:35:16 MP: Always happy to do that. [inaudible]. I am very proud of it. By the time I got to DC, in (19)87, fall of (19)87, to work at the US Department of Education, I had had a background in education, journalism, and government. I had been the director of public information at a ridiculously young age at Binghamton. I served in that capacity either officially or unofficially from (19)72 to (19)74. I got to the University of Minnesota, I was Pete McGraw's speechwriter, I was speechwriting for the President of the big 10 University for three years. I had a doctorate in educational administration, which really was education, administration, and policy with a focus on higher education. I had been a reporter prior to that in Binghamton so I knew something about journalism. I went off to be after the doctorate, a speech writer for a governor, Al Quie, for upwards of two years, later wrote his biography. And after Quie, I served as an editorial writer and as an occasional columnist for significant paper in a significant city in St. Paul, Minnesota. So I had that background. But I had always wanted to do a Washington stint. One of my restorations at the Pioneer Press was that here I had a doctor in education, somebody else was writing about education. Not that I did not have challenging things to write about. I was writing about national politics, and the Middle East. I think I would have Latin America as well and the Soviet Union, not a bad portion of the world to write about. But I always wanted to a Washington stint. And I had that chance in the fall of (19)87. There were other things that [inaudible] in press that were frustrating me and after four years, I realized it was time to move on. And I had a very good friend still have a very good friend and a guy by the name of Chester E. Finn, Jr, known as Checker Finn, FINN, Finn. Who, at the time, I describe accurately as the most important American education analyst and scholar from the right side of the aisle. And he had been at Vanderbilt. he had been at Harvard, he was Pat Moynihan's alter ego in some ways. He, first of all, he had baby-sat some of Moynihan's kids, what was when Moynihan taught at Harvard, Checker was a undergraduate or graduate student there, he worked for Moynihan when he was ambassador to India, and that is where Checker met his wife, Renu, who is Indian. He worked for him in the Nixon White House, I think that was prior or maybe afterwards, and he worked for him when Moynihan was going through his neoconservative period and said other members of Moynihan's staff, by the way at the time were Elliot Perle, who later wound up as Assistant Secretary of Defense under Reagan- not Elliott Perle, Richard Perle. Elliott Abrams and wound up as Assistant Secretary of State, and Checker wound up as an Assistant Secretary of Education during the Reagan administration. 1:39:05 SM: Wow. 1:39:05 MP: Russert was the press secretary it was Les Lenkowsky was also a consultant. It was it was some remarkable staff. Anyway, I met Checker when I was in graduate school. And when I wanted to leave the party and press I gave him a call. And I asked, "Do you have anything?" And he said, "Funny, I do." And Director of Public Information for something, Director of Outreach actually, for the research arm of the US Department of Education at the time, the Office of Educational Research and Improvement. And clandestinely, I went out there and I interviewed and got the job and went out to Washington, putting aside for a moment the extraordinary ambivalence I had about whether or not to take it and my first thought was no. But I went out there. And very quickly I realized that I really did not want to be out there. The bureaucracy was something I really disliked, and the job I had been promised did not turn out that way because typical Washington, someone else already out there working for Bennett, Secretary Bill Bennett. She thought she was the spokesperson for the research arm of the US Department of Education. So, I wound up doing other things, and I just did not enjoy it. So pretty quickly after getting to Washington, perhaps no more than six weeks or so, I started thinking about coming back home and Minnesota was very much home at that point. I had been out here for seven years, I guess. No, let me take that back. No-no, no, my goodness, I had already been on your 13 years. And I had learned something about think tanks, especially when I was at the party on press, when the Heritage Foundation would send me things and on occasion they would visit trying to make a point about something or other, and I found their work to be really quite good. So, they had the reputation at many quarters at that time, as being extreme- they were not. So I did background on those three areas: education, journalism, and government. I said, "Well, I am equipped to start a think tank," and I wanted to start a conservative free market think tank. When I was at the Pioneer Press, I was essentially the only regularly paid conservative opinion writer at either the Pioneer Press or the Star Tribune, the Minneapolis paper- I was the only one. Which says something about the media out here at the time. It is not a bunch of different now. And I knew that a conservative think tank out here would work even though people thought I was crazy. I am saying I want to go back home, start a conservative think tanks and they would say things along the lines, "You want to start a what, where?" They could not imagine a conservative think tank in Minnesota, but no state is the stereotype that it is made out to be, and we are talking about a state that in (19)78, which was nine years prior, had elected all in one line two Republican United States senators and the Republican governor. Al Quie as governor, Dave Durenberger and Rudy Boschwitz as senators, and there were two Senate races that night having to do with Mondale going off to being vice president. And started thinking this through, started talking to people. And I started getting really serious about it. after a couple of months. One of the things I enjoyed about being out in Washington was that I occasionally would have lunch or breakfast with Senator Dave Durenberger in the Senate dining room, that was fun. I enjoyed that. And I had been talking about this idea for a while and he said, "Well you got to stop talking about it, and actually write something" [inaudible] good point. As a writer, I should have known that. So I put together a prospectus, and learned for the first time how expensive printing is, by the way. And from May of (19)88 until we opened 22 months later in March of (19)90, I made 17 trips home, Washington to Minnesota- 1:44:03 SM: Wow. 1:44:04 MP: -to raise money to put together a board of directors and the like, largely on my own dime. Whatever money I had, I spent for the most part and we were finally ready to open up, we had enough money which is not to say very much in March of (19)90 and we opened up great. I had become friends with or acquaintances with people such as Charles Murray, Linda Chavez, Bob Woodson, Checker Finn of course. Larry Mead from NYU, Sally Kilgore, who had done her doctorate under James Coleman and with whom I was working at the US Department of Education [inaudible]. And in one of our meetings back here was our first board meeting, official board meeting. And also, it was still the only board meeting where everybody showed up. And it was on the evening of Reagan's farewell address interestingly, so we took a break from our meeting that evening to watch the address. And one of my colleagues, one of my very close colleagues and one of the founders, and I started working with my close friends in doing this, I certainly was not doing it all by myself, so I was the lead actor. Peter Bell said to me, "You know, we are beginning" and he told the group this, "We are beginning to smell like a house that has been on the market for too long." We may have said this later on, probably said it a bit later on, I may be getting my dates wrong. People knew that we were doing this, getting ready to do this, journalists knew that, then there was some stories. But I just could not raise enough money to actually get it going. I can talk about how we found the money if you would like. And so we decided to do a conference, which wound up in April of (19)90, we were going to do it even if I was not back full time in Minnesota yet. I hired a local event planner, in essence. And I was putting much of this together from Washington. And we decided to have this conference call, and this was my friend Peter Belle's idea. I came up I think, with the exact title, "The New War on Poverty, Advancing Forward this Time," the argument being that we have had this war on poverty in (19)65. Going forward, it did not work real well and there was a sense of the time [inaudible] start trying to do a new one, let us get it right this second time. So, I invited these stars to come out and speak and they all agreed and I said I could not pay ya- I [inaudible] pick up expenses. And they all agreed, and then they all came. I learned later that they may have agreed because they never thought I would be able to pull it off, we would be able to pull it off. But we did. And we opened up great. We had three other people, it was an ideologically and otherwise mixed crowd, mostly ideologically mixed. And Checker Finn did the keynote and Bill Raspberry, the great columnist and friend- 1:47:42 SM: Oh, yeah. 1:47:42 MP: -wrote a column about it. And we were off and, off and running. 1:47:49 SM: What are the what are the basic principles of the organization? 1:47:58 MP: My arguments at the start will have remained my themes, I just been cleaning out some files and moving things around. And I came across columns I wrote for the Pioneer Press back in (19)87. And as the root of my views was that the overwhelming social disaster of our time, was the extraordinary number of kids growing up without their fathers at home. Social, well I, it was family breakdown at the time. The term of [inaudible], family fragmentation, and I had written consistently about that including two books: From Family Collapse to America's Decline in (20)11, and Broken Bonds: What Family Fragmentation Means for America's future in (20)14. And I also talked a lot about them and still do, about how we have to take greater advantage of our religious traditions and institutions to help people in need, and that if we do not do that, it is as if we are trying to do, to make things better with a very muscular arm tied behind our back. And of course, we had to do this in ways that are respectful of the First Amendment, and respectful of I do not use the word diversity, I do not like that, it is a cliché. So I talk about, we have to do that in a way, in ways that are respectful of American variety. And as someone who is Jewish, frankly, I am in some instances in better position to make the argument because people cannot accuse me of being an overly energetic Christian. And I have to be careful using terms like that, I mean them in facetious ways, but sometimes people take it seriously. And is there a wall separating church and state? Of course, I would argue and still do but it is, it was never intended to be as tall and as thick, as it has often been interpreted to be. And what is the main way by my lights to take greater advantage of our religious institutions and traditions? School choice, real life school choice, giving particularly poor parents an opportunity to send their kids to the school of their choice, be it public or private, and private, secular or religious. So those are the [inaudible] of the main themes. Generally, when people think of conservative free market think tanks, they focus more on the economic side of things. And we certainly have done work in that area and more over time. But those were the themes that certainly animated me and animate me still. 1:51:16 SM: Mitch, how many people work at the organization now? 1:51:21 MP: Now, it is a whole lot bigger than what it was, I think there may be something like 14 people on the payroll. 1:51:28 SM: And to do these, do you have lecture circuits to where you have speakers going out to college campuses and things? 1:51:35 MP: No, we do not have that. And you should know my role. I have not been president for going on four years. 1:51:40 SM: Right. 1:51:41 MP: My title is Senior Fellow and Founder, Founder and Senior Fellow. I am part time and have been part time for, this is the first year I have been part time, but I have worked at home for the last going on four years. So, I am out of the loop pretty much. I still write, I have written books during this period. I am going to do another significant project over the next half year or so dealing with personal responsibility and education. Conservatives like talking about personal responsibility, individual responsibility. Well, what does it really mean now in education, if on the one hand I am talking about how family fragmentation is making it hard for lots of kids to do well, and people on the left for the most part of the talking about how racism is supposedly making it impossible for kids, many kids to do well, where does personal responsibility fit in to all of this stuff. I will be conducting a major symposium, written symposium on this over the next half year. 1:53:00 SM: Have you ever thought of coming back to Binghamton and trying to do something? I am just, I am just bringing it up. Because you are, you are distinguished– 1:53:09 MP: I was recently [crosstalk] Someone would have to pay me, someone would have to pay me to be real blunt about it. I am not independently wealthy. If I were to do something, someone would have to underwrite this effort. I have to tell you, when I was out there, it was after Broken Bonds, I guess. Broken Bonds came out in (20)14. And I finagled a speaking engagement in (20)14 or (20)15 talking about the book to some local town gown group that exists, I forget its name. And someone from the Alumni Association that graciously invited me out, was first to go out there. And they put together a schedule for me and I met with some education professors, did not have education professors back when I was there. And I, it was a nostalgic place for me, it is an important, very important place in my life. And the idea of going back and doing something there is really quite appealing. Not necessarily to live, my wife prefers it out here if we are going to move anyplace, it would be someplace like Colorado. But the idea of being involved in some way on a regular basis of Binghamton, yeah that is quite appealing if you can work something out. But financially, I am at a point where I-I would need to be paid, I would need to be paid. 1:54:45 SM: Well, I wish I was back in the university where I work because we, I did five, six or seven conferences at Westchester and I wrote grants and that subject matter you are talking about would make an excellent conference. I am going to, I am we are getting toward the end here, but I want to ask a few more questions– 1:55:02 MP: Sure. 1:55:03 SM: -about your time at Binghamton. Could you just in your own words, what was the relationship between students, faculty and administration during the time you were here? 1:55:13 MP: Good question. Friends, reasonably close friends with-with various faculty and administrators, lots of students, particularly those of us in antiwar activities, though I [inaudible] not only those of us doing that were close to Peter Vukasin, for example, that was the spirit of the place, the Dean of Harpur College. 1:55:49 SM: Right-right. 1:55:52 MP: I might- have you interviewed Camille Paglia yet? 1:55:56 SM: No, I tried a many, many years back. She works at the school [crosstalk] in Philadelphia, the art school. 1:56:05 MP: Right. 1:56:05 SM: And she just did not even respond. But she has, she graduated (19)69 I think, did not she? I think. 1:56:11 MP: Yeah, I think so. I did not know her there. Those of us in my athletic and social science and the other realms were not involved in things in the humanities for the most part. But I remembered when you talk about, relationships with faculty, she was very close to, you mentioned Jerry Komisar before, right? 1:56:34 SM: Yeah, he was. Yeah, he was great professor. 1:56:39 MP: Or was it- he was a historian, was she very close to, who was the poet, who was the poet? 1:56:49 SM: I [crosstalk] know the sociologist was Dr. Price. 1:56:55 MP: No, she was not that [inaudible] she was talking about it. Frankly, I was just reading one of her books again the other day. It will come to me. I will send you an email if I find it. 1:57:07 SM: Yeah, she was she was here in (19)69. Then Bill T. Jones came in here, the great dancer, in (19)71. So and I- 1:57:16 MP: Remember, yeah. 1:57:18 SM:Do you remember Michelle Pecora? 1:57:19 MP: The name, that is all I remember. 1:57:23 SM: Yeah-yeah. Well, she was she [crosstalk] was a dance major, who ended up working at a conservative think tank. 1:57:29 MP: Oh, really? 1:57:30 SM: Yes. 1:57:30 MP: Where? 1:57:31 SM: I think it is the Heritage Foundation. I you know, I tried to look her up. She went to Ohio, she is a year older than me, she went to Ohio State when I was there. I do not ever remember her here. And she was a dance major there. And I remember she was living in Jones tower. And she asked me if I could get graduate students to go to her, you know, dance recital, which I we were in the front row, got a whole mess of them. And she said at that time, she had met someone that she was engaged to be married and all the other stuff, and I lost touch with her totally. Then I looked her up just going into the web. And I believe she ended up getting a CPA or something like that, and then she was also working I think it was either the mer- I think it was the Heritage Foundation. I do not think she is there now. 1:58:17 MP: How do you spell, how do you spell, how do you spell her last name? 1:58:19 SM: PECORA. You know, she was married, so she changed her last name. But it was Michelle Pecora and I all I know is when I looked her up, she was working at the part time, I think at one of the two [crosstalk] is it was either the Heritage or the American Enterprise Institute. It was one of the two, I do not know which one– 1:58:40 MP: Take a look, I will take a look. You remember Percival Borde? He was right after the (19)70's, it was when I was working at (19)72, (19)72, (19)74. He was from the islands, he was a professional dancer. He was a major player. He was on the faculty for a while. But indicative of the time and this is real naïveté, it is not cynical naïveté. I knew Arnie Zane a bit. And I knew I knew of them, frankly and Bill Jones, first Arnie, and I was someplace. Could have been in the theater for heaven's sakes, backstage for whatever reason, and Arnie was sitting on Bill's lap. And in terms of things gay, I knew hardly anything at all. And I was just struck. I do not know exactly what I was thinking. I guess I knew they were gay. But I had never seen a guy sitting on another guy's lap that way. And you talked about fundamental changes- 1:58:43 SM: No. Oh yeah. 1:59:57 MP: -over the decades, that would be it. And then you jump ahead to now. And for decades and decades for the life of the planet for the most part, same sex marriage was not an issue, it was the last [inaudible] to be accepted. 2:00:20 SM: Right. Well, I, Bill T., Bill T. Jones spoke at the Philadelphia library when his book came out and that and I had never met him before. And he signed two of them. My grandniece is really interested in ballet. So, I gave her one of the books, but he gave a great presentation and he is very proud to be a Binghamton alumnus, let me tell you that. 2:00:40 MP: Good. 2:00:40 SM: And I want to just, want to mention, do you remember when Dr. Liebman was fired? 2:00:47 MP: Dr. who? 2:00:48 SM: Liebman. LIE- 2:00:50 MP: No. 2:00:51 SM: He was a sociology professor who spoke down in front of City Hall in an antiwar protest, and he was fired. 2:01:00 MP: The name is vaguely familiar. He was actually fired for that or [crosstalk]? 2:01:05 SM: I think I think he was, he did something because he, when I was here in (19)67, in the fall, he was my sociology professor and then [crosstalk] 2:01:15 MP: Somebody else had to be going on, I assure you. Otherwise the rest of the faculty would have arisen and said you cannot do that. 2:01:25 SM: Yeah. 2:01:25 MP: Academic freedom and all. 2:01:27 SM: Well, something. Yeah, something happened, and he was gone, and one thing, did you go to your graduation in (19)70. 2:01:34 MP: I did not officially graduate in (19)70, remember I found out I was seven credits short. So, I guess I was there and I was the I was, I forget what the term was an usher or something, someone walking down the aisle with a baton. 2:01:48 SM: Yeah, you [crosstalk] remember all the we all we all met, I graduated on that- I had a broken arm. And, like in my picture was in the paper the following day, I told my parents not to bring anything, any cameras to embarrass me. And, and yet, my picture was in the Binghamton Sun the following day, he was getting my degree from Dr. Deering. But do you, that day was historic, because the Grateful Dead had been on campus on May 2nd in performance, and then of course– 2:02:20 MP: Well, I was not in that loop. I simply did not live in that loop. 2:02:24 SM: Right. I guess I am almost done here. I have one that is kind of a convoluted question, but I am going to say finally, how will– 2:02:36 MP: I will give you a convoluted answer. 2:02:38 [laughs] Finally, how important was the era of the (19)60s and early (19)70s in your life, not just because you experienced it and lived it, but because it is shaped who you once were, still are or changed you in ways you never thought possible when you were young? 2:02:58 MP: It was pivotal. For no other reason, then we were talking about when I was in my late teens and early 20s. And I talk about, I probably still, though probably not as much as I used to, I talk about the Harpur/ Binghamton frequently, and part of that has to do, of course, with the fact that I worked there afterwards. I was the director of public information so my job was to think kind thoughts of the place. That was not hard. It is a, it is a good question. I think my wife is in the next room, she may be hearing this so. Exceedingly-exceedingly personal stuff here. Yeah, I started off talking about how I was this swab of this student earlier in high school, junior high school, did not come from an environment that had books in the house. There was, my parents did have a little bookcase. It was in a closet, it did not have many books. I think they used it principally, to hide [inaudible] from me. So, Binghamton was a lot of really, really smart kids, was a different kind of environment. So the high school I went to had some exceptionally smart people. I was not one of them. And when I got to Binghamton, I had worked hard enough that I was closer to being on the cusp of some of the really smart kids, as I said there were a couple of classes where I was the only "A". Richard Dec Legion class, I think and that Hackman class. Yeah, I was living in a dormitory. I was for all three years in the summer between my junior and sophomore years- junior and senior year, I lived in, I call it a semi communal because nobody was sleeping with each other as far as I know. But there were a number of us living in an old farmhouse at the top of the hill in Vestal on Jones road. And my housemates, the friends I had, were, they were, they were cool. They were smart. They were different from the people I would hang out. They were not baseball players. I do not know. Did you know the name, did you know Krista Patton? 2:06:08 SM: Krista Patton, nope. 2:06:11 MP: PATTON. Krista was a great friend. She was one of the people living in the house. Krista died about three years ago now, Alzheimer's, very sad. She was a, she was a class act. She was beautiful, she was exceedingly talented. She spoke beautifully, I do not think she ever stuttered or stammered over a single syllable in her entire life. She-she was indicative of Binghamton in this way. She was all those things. Frankly, more beautiful than 99 percent of the women in this world. But she was counter culture in the sense that when she got out of school, she did not do anything for a while that was close to matching her talent, she had been an English major, was a great English major, and got out of school. And she worked in a bookstore doing nothing terribly interesting. She drove a truck– 2:07:25 SM: My God. 2:07:25 MP: -for a while at delivery truck, I believe. And then after a number of years, we stayed in touch. After a number of years, she decided she wanted to be a physician. But by this stage, she had been out of school for a while. And she was an English major, not a lot of science courses. So, she was told, "Well, you got to go back and take science courses," which he did for the next several years. And aced them all of course, this was at Clark, I believe she was living in Worchester Massachusetts. 2:07:58 SM: Wow. 2:07:59 MP: Got into medical school there. And by that stage I was concerned she would not get in because she was too old. But she got in, graduated, became a fine physician. And, and I in some ways I mentioned this because she followed her own drummer in a classical Binghamton way, if I want to romanticize the place. And after a while she said, "I do not want to be a doctor anymore." She did not like the bureaucracy. So she stopped doing that and became a landscaper. 2:08:35 SM: Oh my God. 2:08:36 MP: And she became sick, and then then she died. And she was involved. She never married but she was involved on and off, mostly on over that entire period from Binghamton on with a guy by the name of Ricky Barton. Ricky is African American, [inaudible]. So that was that was an own, marching to your own drummer kind of thing. 2:08:57 SM: And you know, and marching to your own drummer, you remember the artist Peter Max. Well Peter Max is the really- Yeah. The artist of the (19)60s and (19)70s. 2:09:06 MP: Yeah-yeah, yeah. 2:09:06 SM: And he had so many things which were, go to the beat of your own drummer, or take- 2:09:12 MP: Right. 2:09:12 SM: -or take the road less traveled. It is very obvious, Mitch that some of the relationships and friendships you have developed here at this campus have been have touched you in so many ways and I think of all the things that have, that this interview, which I love hearing about your organization, the changes you have gone through from your early years to today. And but also hearing about the friendships you bring these names up. I do not know them, but it is obvious, you know, as a college student, friendships developed here. And-and we always think of and I always think of I do not ever think of Binghamton University or SUNY Binghamton, I think a Harpur College. And the fact is, I know it was SUNY Binghamton when we were students here. It was Harpur College, Binghamton, SUNY Binghamton. But I am so proud of being a part of Harpur College, the arts and sciences school on this campus. And– 2:10:10 MP: Yeah, I so, go on I am sorry. 2:10:12 SM: Yeah, no, I still identify more as a Harpur Arts and Sciences than I do Binghamton University. [laughs] 2:10:18 MP: Yeah, there has been a large part of me doing that, at least up until about 10 years ago, and I still, I frequently sleep in a Harpur shirt. The reason I focus on Binghamton now, as I do, because I work there, because it is all these years later and when I talk about where I went to school, people not going to out here know about Harpur. They generally do not know about Binghamton, either, but chances are they will know it more readily than Harper, and we just won a Nobel Prize, for example, for a professor at Binghamton not Harpur, you get the idea. 2:10:59 SM: Yep. Yeah, right, well, I always end with by saying, Is there a question that you thought I might ask you that I did not? 2:11:12 MP: As we were talking, I was wondering if you were going to ask about my draft status and whether or not- well, I made it clear I had to serve. But how did I not serve? 2:11:22 SM: Yeah, well, that would be a good question to ask. I know, I was, what did he call it? I cannot remember. I remember I was number 74 on the draft list. 2:11:33 MP: While I was number 31. 2:11:35 SM: Oh my god. 2:11:37 MP: The night someone picked out a ping pong ball, and decided I was number 31, I had had already for about two years, maybe a bad knee, which later were terribly arthritic, and later had replaced and I had both knees replaced and a hip replaced and two spine operations, you get the idea. So a lot of arthritis. So I called the home that night, called collect. And the operator says to my mother who picked up the phone, "Will you accept a call from Mitch?" and she said, "Yeah, we will accept a call from number 31." 2:12:24 SM: [laughs] Oh, God. 2:12:25 MP: I call, I called home to tell him to make another appointment for me with my orthopedist at the time and I look back on this I am not much to say exceedingly proud of all of that. I-I was opposed to going to Vietnam I would like to think for principled reasons, but also be [inaudible] want to go to Vietnam. I was not against military service. I was not against the draft but if I had a chance not to get drafted and not go to Vietnam, I was going to take it. And I became 4F because of my knee wanting the physical on May 26 (19)70 in Syracuse, I look back on that time talking about pivotal moments and pivotal events and things going on. 2:13:20 SM: Were you on that- were you on that bus to Syracuse with Binghamton students? 2:13:24 MP: Yes. You were there? 2:13:25 SM: I was on that, yes, I was on that bus. 2:13:28 MP: [inaudible] 2:13:29 SM: I cannot believe it! 2:13:30 MP: What happened? 2:13:31 SM: I am for- I had asthma. 2:13:34 MP: Well, I developed that later on. I did not have that at the time. 2:13:37 SM: But I was not doing any of that thinking, oh, I am going to go to Canada and all that other stuff I just, I just legitimately had asthma. So and that got me out. But I remember going on the bus and then they asked when we got there, I think they said, "Get in the line if you do not have an excuse and get in the line if you do have an excuse." And there is only a few that [laughs]. There was only a few that got in the line that [laughs] that did not have an excuse. So that– 2:14:04 MP: So, I look back on that time I am not- I will be real blunt- I am not real proud of it. And it is one of the reasons why now, especially since I have made arguments over time as a journalist and think tank about supporting George W. Bush in Iraq, which that might have been a mistake going back down. But I am quite aware of all this I am, so my license plate. We have license plates out here, you pay an extra 30 bucks a year, whatever it is and it has an eagle on it and the extra money goes to military families. So. 2:14:43 SM: That is very good Mitch, I devoted a lot of my life to working with Vietnam vets, Vietnam vets. So, and if you if you look at the people that I have interviewed [inaudible] this, if you look at the people I have interviewed, I have interviewed all the top Vietnam vets basically, except a few of them- McCain, I never got a chance to interview him or John Kerry. But I have gotten to know a lot of them. And I go down to the Vietnam Memorial every Memorial Day and Veterans Day, and I have done so since (19)92. So very important to me to pay respects for those who gave their all and they served. They serve this nation with distinction. I know there is some bad ones, but most of them I think we are good. Mitch, are there any other things you want to say? 2:15:27 MP: A final point, I made it before, but it is worth making it again. Of all the things that the anti-war generation, or make it more clearly the antiwar activist did that I think we should regret is this the way we treated the American soldiers. 2:15:47 SM: I agree. I agree. And it has gotten some– 2:15:51 MP: I would like to think, I would like to think I did not do that. And I really did not– 2:15:55 SM: Well I– 2:15:55 MP: -and there were so many people who did. 2:15:56 SM: Yeah, yeah, in 19- this is a true story, in (19)82 you can see the videos of when the mall opened and how they all came there, the first time that they were actually welcome home really felt. And then you had this period of time after this when some people faked that they were Vietnam veterans. And that is, that is a crime in my opinion. Several books have been written on it. But yeah, I do not, most of the people I know that were antiwar, including some of the major activists they never, it was all about the leaders who sent them to the to the war, not the soldiers themselves. They just wanted to prevent them from getting killed. [inaudible] again, this, this particular interview will be going into the archives, but it will be sent to you first for approval. 2:16:42 MP: Okay. 2:16:43 SM: It has to be some from David Schuster here at the center. 2:16:46 MP: We are talking about just the audio. We are not transcribing this, are we? 2:16:49 SM: No, we are talking the audio. 2:16:51 MP: Okay, yeah. I am sure I will have no problem approving anything and everything. But yeah, I look forward to listening to it. 2:16:58 SM: And also, one other thing, we will need a picture of you that has been approved and okayed. And we need to know the photographer because we have to get credits for them. And I will add one other thing. I have never read any of your books. And quite a few, I have given my whole book collection and except just maybe two or three hundred that I have not given yet. And a lot of them are the people that I interviewed who has signed their books. So, I would love to have your books available here to be near your interview and your picture and biography. 2:17:31 MP: You just sent me an email about what you need and we will work at it. 2:17:33 SM: Great. Mitch, what an honor. And I and I. 2:17:36 MP: My pleasure. 2:17:37 SM: And one other thing I will always remember when I came back from Ohio State University one summer, the summer after I left, I think it was the summer of (19)71. And I walked on the campus. It was a beautiful sunny day and you were sitting in a chair. I do not know if you remember this. You were sitting in a chair outside the of the union in the front facing the administration building. And I said to you, "Mitch, what are you doing here?" [laughs] Because I thought you graduated (19)70 And that is when you told me you were staying around and working with the President that you were working there. You are still doing something. (19)72 to (19)70- son of a gun! Alright, good. Yep. Mitch, you have a great day. Thank you. 2:18:16 MP: I do have one final-final point. I am very, very proud of myself that I have not said one bad thing about Ohio State. 2:18:22 SM: [laughs] That is okay, Mitch. Thank you. 2:18:27 MP: Bye-bye. 2:18:28 SM: Bye. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Mitch Pearlstein https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/79185bb347e10e04e679d5a1ab12bcbf.jpg 85441262140cb0ea6d54bd2a0349c956 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ac14804b10bc7c6065d3852587be9d28.MP3 87e1e6256b1ed67b440c82946d4afd26 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 8/7/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dean Kahler Biographical Text Dean Kahler grew up on a farm in East Canton, Ohio. In his youth, Dean received criticism because he was a pacifist and did not support the war in Vietnam. After high school, he attended Kent State University, enrolling in the teaching program. On May 4, 1970, Dean was shot in the lower back by Ohio National Guardsmen who were sent to quell the protests on Campus that had occurred days prior. Dean lost his ability to walk, however, that did not stop him from pursuing a career in teaching and becoming elected to public office. Since then, Dean has been a leading force in the push for handicap reforms all across the state of Ohio. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:35:41 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Anti-Vietnam; Ohio; south; farming; Church; politics; 1960s; protest; gender roles; Vietnam War; Anti-War Movement; Kent State; pacifism; boomers; Kent State Shootings Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Dean Kahler Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger Date of interview: 7 August 2019 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:01 All right. First off Dean- DK: 00:04 Before we start? SM: 00:05 Yes, go ahead. DK: 00:05 Before we get in, question for you. Have you ever run into a woman named Meg Benke? BENKE? SM: 00:14 No. DK: 00:16 She is an administrator I think at the SUNY. SM: 00:18 Oh, ah was she, now was she was she in the (19)60s? DK: 00:28 Well, no-no, no, she is a little later than that. SM: 00:33 Oh, okay. DK: 00:34 But, you know, she is probably 10 years younger than I am. SM: 00:39 Okay. Now I- DK: 00:42 I knew her down in, I knew her down in Athens. SM: 00:45 Oh, okay, very good. DK: 00:47 Yeah. SM: 00:48 All right, let me let me start this. Now. Before we start, let me let me just rem- do you remember when you were working in Athens, when the gentleman who wrote "Born on the Fourth of July”- I forget his name now, golly. DK: 01:04 Ron Kovic. SM: 01:05 Yeah. Ron Kovic. He was arrested. DK: 01:09 Yep. SM: 01:09 Yeah, he, it was between (19)73 and (19)76. And I remember he was protesting there. And I remember I, one of the students brought a newspaper back from the main campus to the Lancaster campus and they really, boy they really roughed him up, geez. Even though he is in a wheelchair, I could not believe what the- you know that he was up. I guess he was arrested a lot. He is a very close friend of Bobby Mueller who found that Vietnam Veterans of America. DK: 01:35 Right, yeah. SM: 01:36 And-and he and Ron were two of the leaders of Vietnam Veterans Against the War too. So, you know, yeah, they are very close friends. My very first question, Dean is, could you tell me a little bit about your growing up year years, where you grew up, what your what your family did where you went to elementary and high school, your early influences in life before going to Kent State? DK: 02:00 Okay. Well, I grew up in a- outside of a little village and township called the Osnaburg Township, OSNABURG. And the post office we got our mail out was a little village called East Canton, which changed it is name from Osnaburg to East Canton during World War One because some people came out and burned down some barns in Osterberg because he thought everybody that lived out there with German. SM: 02:27 Oh, my gosh. DK: 02:29 Yeah-yeah. So that is how it kind of went from Osnaburg to East Canton. But I lived in Osnaburg Township, though. SM: 02:38 Right. DK: 02:39 But a farming community, basically. My, where I lived was on one of the very early subdivisions in in Osnaburg Township. The house I was lived, grew-grew up in was made or built in (19)23. So, it was the same age as my dad. And we lived about four football fields away from the family farm. SM: 03:05 Oh, wow. DK: 03:06 And my dad, my dad sold his interest in the farm to his brother. And they all did basically all the siblings. And he is the one that had the farm, and it is still a farm to this day. SM: 03:19 My golly. DK: 03:23 [Inaudible] SM: 03:23 Now when you were a kid, did you like work for your dad on the farm? Like, for example, the haying season and that kind of stuff? DK: 03:32 I worked for my uncle on the farm. And yeah, I did not just work in hay season, I worked in the winter season, the spring season, the planting season, the harvesting season, you name it, I was there. You know, go up, get up in the mornings to go milk cows, take a shower and eat breakfast at my Uncle Ray's house or Uncle Ray's and Aunt May's house [crosstalk], go to school. And that was my life basically, from that time I was 12 or 13 years old. SM: 04:04 Now- DK: 04:04 We are also involved, but I was also involved in the Church of the Brethren. And that is the Church of the Brethren. Which are the old, the old Dunkers. And for a frame of reference, the church that that is that Antietam is an old Dunker church. SM: 04:22 I know it well. DK: 04:24 An old Brethren Church. SM: 04:25 Yes. DK: 04:26 And yes, I have been there for two services that they have held in period costume and in period practices, with Brethren historians. But yeah, even though we were all pacifists, they were there helping to tend to the wounded no matter what color uniform they had on. SM: 04:47 Yeah, I have been the Antietam about three times, when I go to Gettysburg then I drive over to Antietam and- DK: 04:53 Yeah. SM: 04:54 -and one day I was there, it was a beautiful day and that the building you are talking about was across the street from the tourist center. And, and some of those historic shots from the battle itself. And they were comparing the how it looks today without a looked back in at the in- the year the Antietam took place. And wow, that was something else. DK: 05:14 Yeah, certainly was, certainly was. SM: 05:17 Now what was your, how many kids are in your high school? DK: 05:21 Let us see, I do not know about the high school, but every class had right around one hundred kids in it. And that is K through, or 1 through 12. We did not have kindergarten whenever I was kid till later on. SM: 05:33 Right. DK: 05:33 But we, my graduating class was ninety-six kids, and most of us so we all had farm backgrounds in that class. So I grew up in that kind of environment, an agricultural environment, but also grew up in a religious environment, because I was involved in the youth group, as a junior high and then a high schooler and was, you know, chairman of our youth group for one year, then I was on the district chairman or district youth group, and I was the chairman there one year as well, I would work your way up from treasurer, secretary, vice president, president. That sort of stuff. And then, so I traveled all over northern Ohio, [inaudible] district working with other youth groups and planning activities for everybody along the way, having district wide youth activities as well. SM: 06:31 Well, now that was, that was when you were in high school, correct? DK: 06:34 That was all when I was in junior high in high school, yeah. SM: 06:37 You now, has-has this continued, I mean, a different way as you became an adult? And you know, I know you had the tragedy at Kent State. But as you have gone on later in life, has religion plays a very important part in your life? DK: 06:52 Well, the principles of religion have played a very important part in my life, but because of the transient nature of human beings these days. I go to church whenever I can. And I, you know, I enjoy the religious aspect of the religious community that is there. But you know, I have lived in Athens, I have lived up here. And, you know, in Athens there were no brother churches down there. The closest one I think, was selling coffee. SM: 07:23 I know where that is. DK: 07:24 About six miles away from Athens, so. But I did not have any real religious community there. I went to the church right on Main Street there, right behind beside the City Hall of Athens- SM: 07:41 Okay. DK: 07:41 -what is the name of that church? SM: 07:43 I know it because I worked at the Ohio University of Lancaster campus, but I was on the main campus a lot for meetings. I was involved in the Human Relations Committee, and we had to go down there once a month for those meetings. DK: 07:56 Oh, yeah. SM: 07:56 And then I love a lot of the faculty members I got to know at the main campus, and I brought them back as speakers because they were some pretty renowned authors there. Particularly in the philosophy [crosstalk], particularly people like Dr. Hunt, who has passed away, but he was in the philosophy department. In high school, what activities were you involved in? DK: 08:18 Well, let us see. I was involved in the junior play, the senior play, I played football in high school. I was involved in intramural basketball because I could not walk and chew gum at the same time. [laughter] We did not have a speech or debate team, but I was on what was it? Why hot, Wi Fi or Wi Hi? Or, you know, sort of like Junior-Junior, Junior Achievement type-type of people. So. SM: 08:51 I got to, [crosstalk] I got to ask you this. If you were a football player, how come they did not recruit you for Ohio State? [laughter] DK: 08:59 Well, let us see. I was when I graduated high school and when I was playing high school football, I was six foot two and weighed 150 pounds. SM: 09:07 Now I understand. DK: 09:09 And I could barely walk and chew gum at the same time. SM: 09:12 [laughs] Very good. Yeah, as a high school student in the late (19)60s. What year did you graduate? High School? DK: 09:21 (19)69. SM: 09:22 Yep. As a high school student in the late (19)60s, what were your thoughts on the issues of the day? And I am not sure if you are, you know, you are working on the farm, you got activities, but whether that was touching you before you ever got to Kent State, and I am just- DK: 09:37 Yeah, it touched me long before I get to Kent State. One because of my activities with the Church of the Brethren. And the issue of pacifism. Two, because of the issues relating to women's rights- SM: 09:52 Oh, yeah. DK: 09:52 -and probably most importantly, the issue of civil rights. Our church was involved in all three of those in a pretty heavy way. All through the (19)60s. And so, I grew up with a mixed marriage family. My father was a member of the Democratic Party and a union member. And my mother was a member of the Republican Party. And she did not work until, I think when I was 16, when she started working when my brother went to, went to high school, or elementary school, and so I, my parents, sort of were like the-the ideal of the (19)60s, you know, we sat down at dinner table every night, and discussed the issues of the day. And you better have something to bring to the table, as opposed to just picking on your sister or whatever. SM: 09:54 Yeah, yeah, you know Dean, it is amazing how much we are alike in many ways. My, my mother was came from a strong Democratic family, my dad was a Republican. DK: 10:53 Oh, wow. SM: 10:53 Yep. And we had all while growing up until we start going off to college, and we were away and everything we had, we always were there together at the dinner table, and we discussed everything. Sometimes, sometimes my mom wanted my dad to speak up more, because he was always eating fast. And he ate so fast, he would get up the table, say "No we want you to stay here awhile" [laughs] because he was a fast eater, but talking about the issues of the day, and that is interesting. That is very interesting. And I do not think I asked you this question about your parents, did they argue over politics or did they just, you know- I do not ever remember my parents arguing ever about politics. DK: 11:33 Well, they never argued, but they discussed it regularly. And there was no, there was no dissension amongst them other than disagreement. And so, you know, when they argued they were talking about a particular issue, and their belief in it, whatever, whatever that issue was that particular day. So that was that was how I grew up debating politics as a kid, watching my parents discuss those issues, pros and cons of each of those, their positions on whatever the issue was, whether it be, you know, the Vietnam War, or, you know, the issue of pollution, the issue of women's rights, you know, all that kind of stuff that was happening in the (19)60s. SM: 11:51 Right. It is amazing. When you think about it, all the movements that were, you used the Civil Rights movement as examples to, on how to do things and nonviolent protests by via Dr. King, but there were also those who created violence. But you know, when you look at the Vietnam War, and Civil Rights, the women's movement, obviously the Native American, the Native American movement too and the gay and lesbian- DK: 12:41 Yeah. SM: 12:41 -the gay and lesbian movement, and Earth Day from (19)70. These are like major issues, and they were all evolving, all in about the same time where people were speaking up. DK: 12:51 Oh, yeah. SM: 12:53 So, when you were in high school, you were really up to date and what was happening in the world. DK: 13:01 We sure were, we sure were. In fact, my government teacher took about 40 of us, 40 of us on a school bus up to the University of Akron to see Richard Nixon give his speech in (19)68, when he came to the University of Akron, and since then I have run into hundreds of people who were there, who went to Kent State, who were, you know, students of Kent State along the way, we all compare our notes about what we saw and what we heard, and how we interpreted those that particular event. SM: 13:32 Wow. DK: 13:33 So yeah, it is pretty amazing that I am conversing with people for three, four or five years older than me who were at the, at the Nixon speech at the University of Akron. SM: 13:44 What-what were your thoughts, what were your thoughts in high school way before you get to Kent State, about student protesters? In terms of, you know, people just protesting in general. DK: 13:59 I thought it was an important thing to do. I mean, the- our founding fathers protested. And I believed a lot in what President- Dr. King had to say about being peaceful and knowledgeable, not only on the issue, but on your opponent, the person who has a different agreement than you do, different understanding. SM: 14:20 Right. DK: 14:20 And so, to me protesting is, you know, goes right along with apple pie. Ice cream and apple pie, you know, as the American dream. SM: 14:34 You know, when the when, in the beginning of the Vietnam War, most people supported it. But as time goes on, particularly in the mid- probably about the late (19)60s, things changed. And, and, you know, when you look at our Founding Fathers, they were a minority amongst Americans who, you know, did, you know, they wrote the Declaration of Independence and they wanted freedom still the majority of Americans were afraid of the British and kind of looked at the Founding Fathers in many ways as radicals. DK: 15:04 Yeah. SM: 15:04 And as a young man, I used to compare that when I saw some of the people protesting the Vietnam War, because in the beginning, they were in the minority. And then then finally, they evolved into the majority. So, it is kind of kind of a linkage in two different eras. DK: 15:18 Exactly, but also in my environment, in Church of the Brethren people who protested the war were a minority. But I have to look back at some of the original protesters that were there for, say, like the Civil Rights movement, and the civil- and then the war, the anti-Vietnam War movement. A lot of those were church ladies who are writing letters, who were doing bake sales, raising money to say, sent to, to the NAACP, all that sort of stuff. And, you know, they were like silent protesters, they were doing something. And a lot of people forget about the very first protests of the war in Vietnam were not college students. They were church ladies who believed in pacifism, thought this war was crazy. So. SM: 16:07 Yeah, there was a strong organization in Philadelphia in the (19)60s. And that was Mothers Against the Vietnam War. And they were old, they were older women, they were actually in their 30s and 40s. That we brought a couple of them to Westchester University. And, you know, they have all passed on now, but that was a great revelation hearing from them. DK: 16:29 Right. Well, you had the Quakers, Mennonites, Church of the Brethren, and whoever else was out there protesting, the old church ladies who were against this whole war. So, yeah. SM: 16:41 In your, in your view, what has been the overall impact of your generation, which is the boomer generation, on America? And I can ask, and I would say, the (19)60's generation, because not everybody went to college. And there were a lot of young people who were not going to college against the war, what, are your feelings toward your generation positive, more positive or negative? DK: 17:05 I think a positive, though I do have some disappointment in the fact that a lot of people still have to then continue to stand up against the corruption and, you know, the-the abuse of power by public officials. And not supporting people who were out there on the front lines. So yeah, I mean, I still have a positive impact, or view of my generation that we did a lot of things, we made a lot of change. But our follow through was a little bit short. We could have been a little more involved as we got older. But then again, you know, you worry about all these things, you know, you are paying taxes, your houses, your children. SM: 17:52 Right. DK: 17:54 So yeah. SM: 17:55 One of the things, one of the opportunities I have had when I have interviewed so many people is hearing some tremendous insights from things I did not even thought and one of them was Richie Havens. When he, when I interviewed him, when I talked about the boomer generation, he became very sensitive because he says, "I am a boomer, but I was born in (19)41." And he was about the third or fourth person that I interviewed of all the people I interviewed who got very sensitive about these putting years into, the boomers are from (19)46 to (19)64. The generation- DK: 18:29 Right. SM: 18:29 -Xers are (19)64, to (19)80. And Richie, Richie said, just made a comment, and I and it will be in the interview if we can get his daughter to okay it. That the spirit, the spirit of the (19)60s, the spirit of the times, it is not in years. It is based on the people, and he was he said, "I am born in (19)41. And I am as much a boomer as you are." DK: 18:54 Yeah, I agree with him there. That is 100 percent correct. Because, you know, all through that time, it was not just us young people. I mean, I looked around and I saw people with gray hair. SM: 19:03 Yes. DK: 19:04 Throughout their lifetime. So. SM: 19:06 You know, there is, there is some great senators there against the war, the some of the older ones, but there were also a few remember Dean, reading about the (19)60s or even before you went to Kent State. I heard these stories about that the leaders on college campuses were the older students that were in graduate school, and that the undergraduate’s kind of looked up to them as mentors and role models. And when you look at all the, when you look at Rennie Davis, Tom Hayden- I know Tom Hayden's first wife, Casey Hayden, and- DK: 19:36 Yeah. SM: 19:37 -they were all born between (19)37 and (19)45. DK: 19:41 Yeah-yeah. SM: 19:43 So, it is kind of you know, there is some truth to what Richie was saying. And actually, Todd Gitlin said in the interview, he said he- you know, "I-I like the fact that you are talking about the generation you grew up in, but if I hear one more time, you mentioning [laughs] our generation I might-might end the interview." Because he-he is in that group of (19)37 to (19)45. If you were to describe the students and the overall youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, please describe in your own words, the qualities you admire the qualities you do not admire. And I am asking you some general questions before we get into, you know, more of the other things directly related to your life. But this is just being around your peers and your thoughts on them. DK: 20:34 Well, I admired their intellectual curiosity. And I admired the fact that the, although the lines between men and women were breaking down to the point where men did not expect the women just to do the copying, and the typing. And that we were growing in that sense of the word. And the fact that we were not afraid to speak up and, you know, point out the foibles and the injustices that our society was committing in our name. SM: 21:12 Do you feel that the some of the people within that generation were kind of naive? Because if you recall, it was even at Kent State, probably. I know it was at SUNY Binghamton and I know it was at Berkeley- I have talked to some people. Is that some are very serious and well-read, and others were naive and did not understand. Because there was, "We want to end the war," or "We want to stop this," but there was no alternative. They had no alternative except to criticize what was, they had no idea about what will become. DK: 21:45 Well, when you end the war, you know, obviously, you have got to take care of it, and deal with the country that is your you invaded. In this particular case, you are talking about Vietnam. And yeah, there was naiveite there, there is no doubt about that. But generally, people are willing to learn. So, you know, the naive, students, if they did anything, they learned a little bit as well, because there was so much to be learned around you. And it was easy to learn because it was in your face every single day. And if it was not in your face, you knew somebody who was in Vietnam. And so. SM: 22:29 Did you, did you lose any friends in the war? DK: 22:33 Well, I did not lose any friends in the war, but I had several who were wounded. And a classmate of mine, her brother was killed in Vietnam. He was about three years older than us. So yeah, I would say that would have been (19)60, (19)65 or (19)66. Because I remember what she was pulled out of algebra class. SM: 23:00 Oh, wow. That would have been, that would have been sad. Do you did you, in your family, what we heard a lot about back in the (19)60s and (19)70s was this generation gap. Was there a generation gap in your family at all about the war or any of the issues? And or if not in your family, maybe some of your friends and their families? DK: 23:23 Oh, yeah. I saw it all around me. Also, my father did not like the fact that I was [inaudible] I was a pacifist. He thought it was my duty to be involved in the military, get drafted and or join because he was drafted in World War Two. And, you know, he fought in the Pacific. And then, you know, my neighbors. Whenever they started hearing about my views on pacifism, they, you know, they would make comments about that. They did not think it was right. Some of my colleagues, my high school colleagues called me a coward or [inaudible] sort of stuff. SM: 24:06 Wow. DK: 24:08 Even though I played you know, I was starting tackle on the football team. [laughter] SM: 24:14 And you could not run if you are chewing gum, right? [laughs] DK: 24:19 Right. I can take four or five steps and knock somebody down, you know. SM: 24:24 Yeah. DK: 24:25 When you are farm boy, you do not have an ounce of fat on you, [inaudible] SM: 24:29 Right. Now, how did you choose Kent State? DK: 24:34 Well, it was a long-distance phone call from my parents. [laughs] SM: 24:40 Really? DK: 24:42 Well, no. I wanted to be a teacher. So, they had a real good reputation for being an education college. It used to be a formal school at one point. SM: 24:51 Right. DK: 24:53 They definitely know how to [inaudible] teachers there. SM: 24:57 Yeah, well, I cannot believe how big that school is growing right now if we get back into the questions, but I in the last couple of times I have been there, there is new buildings going up everywhere. And downtown. You are not going to recognize it eventually. With all the- DK: 25:11 Oh yeah, the downtown has been totally remodeled. [inaudible] SM: 25:17 Yeah, it is a growing university with more and more students attending as well. I [crosstalk] have a- go ahead. DK: 25:27 Okay. But good reason for that growth. What is Kent surrounded by? Akron, Canton, Cleveland, Youngstown? SM: 25:34 Yes. So, a lot of people. DK: 25:38 Yeah. SM: 25:40 What is that up to now in numbers? DK: 25:43 Well, on the main campus, they are right around 21, 22 thousand. But that is not including the-the branch campuses in East Liverpool and, oh God Tuscarora County, and Stark County and. There is another one up near [inaudible] up in Geauga County. SM: 26:04 Okay. DK: 26:04 As well, so there are at least four branch campuses with around 5000 students in each one. SM: 26:12 That is a lot of students. I know, you know, Ohio universities survived in the early (19)70s because of Lancaster and Zanesville, and I think Chillicothe. Ohio, the Lancaster campus, I think has 2200 students now I think they are pretty much 2200, 2500 students. But-but Ohio University in the early (19)70s, they were up close to 18,000. And I think they went down to about 12,500 or 13,500 after the (19)60s. And so- DK: 26:41 Right, they did for a while. SM: 26:42 Yeah, so there was a lot of things going on there. Now, this is just a general question here. And I know you may have already said some things on it. In high school and college that you support and participate in protests against the war in Vietnam and other protests. And just wondering, how did you feel about- you already answered that. How do you feel about protesters after arriving at Kent? DK: 27:04 Yeah, I went to a couple of protests, one of them was outside of the Student Union. And there was about 30, 30 of us there. I did not have any signs, but they had signs. So, I used one of their signs. But there was a group that was standing there about eight or ten guys, they were sorority brothers. And they will in their Izod shirts and whatever kind of golf shirts, they were wearing-wearing a gulf button up and shut, trying to shut us down. We are trying to, you know, march in and also to talk about the issues of the day. And I went to a couple others that were in the evening, and small protests of 15 or 20 people. And there was not any counter protesters. I have gone to those as well. So yeah, they were there. I wore a peace button or peace sign on my shirt every day. And people knew my position on that just by checking out the button on my shirt. SM: 27:29 Right. Yep. DK: 28:06 So, yeah. SM: 28:06 Yeah. Well, you know that that whole description of the-the fraternity guys with their Izod or polo shirts, whatever it might be. It is so true. It was the case at Ohio State when I was there in graduate school. It was the case of, at SUNY Binghamton when they were we- actually were banned from SUNY Binghamton. We did not have fraternities or sororities, when we were there, there was no way it was ever going to be passed. And of course, anybody who knows the free speech movement at Berkeley knows that the people that were those biggest threats toward the protesters were not the police. They were the [laughs] fraternity guys. So, when you, before you came to campus, you obviously were aware of some of the other major protests that were happening around the country. What, you know, the takeover at Columbia, the free speech, [crosstalk] the free speech movement at Berkeley at (19)65, (19)66. Certainly, the takeover by Native Americans of Alcatraz, I know Jane Fonda was there for that. And of course, the Cornell University in (19)69, when members of the Black Panther Party took over the union and they had guns. What was your thoughts on all these different protests? These were major happenings, some were peaceful, some were not. DK: 29:26 Well, I think it is important so that people would know that those people out there disagreeing with the White House policies in this particular case. And I thought it was great that they were doing it, it was important, it got a message out and let people know that there is a large portion of people who were going to be cannon fodder for the military who did not like this particular war. I mean, it is not that that they were against all wars. They were against this particular war, unlike my religion, which is against all war. And so up, you know, but it is important to realize that, you know, as young people are, who were studied, they were quick to learn. And they learned that there is this very [inaudible] what we were doing in Southeast Asia. That was important to let you know, the older generation know that we were not going to go peacefully into the night. And I agreed with them. I thought it was a good idea, I am not. I was always a person who believes in peaceful protest, but it was important to protest. And a little thing about Cornell, two years before the protests at Cornell, my church had their annual youth conference, which happens every four years nationwide, and I was on the Cornell campus for 10 days. SM: 30:48 Oh, wow. DK: 30:49 At that particular time. SM: 30:50 That is my neck of the woods. DK: 30:52 Yeah. And Bob Dylan was supposed to play there. But I think that was when he was still recuperating from his motorcycle accident. SM: 31:00 Oh, okay. DK: 31:02 Yeah-yeah. SM: 31:03 Here is a little tidbit. One of the African American leaders of that very serious protests at Cornell is now one of the most important alumni in Cornell's history. I think he is on the, I think he was on, he was on the Board of Trustees for a while. He has become a very successful person in life. And, and Harry Edwards, you know, the former professor at Berkeley, he was the advisor there at Cornell, he was a graduate student. And he come, [crosstalk] yeah, he was a graduate student there at the time. And he was involved in the protests, advising them. And of course, we all know what he did with Tommie, John Carlos and Tommie Smith in (19)68 Olympics. DK: 31:26 Wow. Yeah. SM: 31:49 [crosstalk] So a lot of connection there at Cornell. This is a question I would like your feelings on, and that is, how important were the student protests on college campuses on ending the war in Vietnam? Would you consider this time the closest, and also would you consider the (19)60s and early (19)70s as the closest we have come to a civil war since the Civil War? DK: 32:19 Protests on college campuses were like building a house, which culminated in say, the shootings at Kent State University, and then the marches on Washington that happened around that time as well. So, there was a whole building blocks, it was all, like, putting a putting a pot of stew on the stove, you know, you put your potatoes in first, but there they go the hardest thing, takes longer to cook. So those are important as steppingstones along the way. And the second part of that question was what? SM: 32:56 Oh, would you consider the period of the (19)60s and early (19)70s like the 19- like the Civil War, we came close to going at each other's throats. DK: 33:11 I do not think it was close to a civil war at all. Not at all. Mainly because people who were protesting the war were thinking about the union. They were thinking about this country, and the people that lived in this country. And so, I do not think there was any correlation to a civil war at all, because you had all through the (19)60s with Martin Luther King, talking about peaceful coexistence, and protesting peacefully. And many of the antiwar demonstrators felt the same way and use the same tactics along the way. So not anywhere close to a civil war. SM: 33:50 Did the-? DK: 33:51 Unlike the crazy extreme right. Now, just because they do not like some of the policies that are out there that are more humane and less discretionary. They are already starting to scream about a civil war, which is crazy. I mean, those people would nuts. And I hate to say that, but I know a few along the way, and they are already talking about Civil War, and I say, "what?!" How could you even say such a thing. SM: 34:21 Yeah. The think the media at times kind of built this kind of, is this, is there a possibility and what they would always use is that wall street scene where the hard hats would-would beat up the protesters, remember that scene? I forget what year. DK: 34:40 Oh yeah, oh yeah. [inaudible] SM: 34:42 And they always go there. They always go to that scene on, in New York, and it is the media trying to portray some of these things too. DK: 34:51 I must say I watch a lot of media because I am laid up right now. I do not feel [inaudible] doing that. What I do see on the Internet, going through various places like YouTube, the NRA chapters of an extreme [inaudible], people out there that have their own websites. They are the ones who are bringing up the issue of civil war. At this point in time. You know, they are worried about gun control, they are worried about Black people taking over. They are worried about people of different color, different nationalities who are American citizens who are born here that do not look like them. They are the ones who are stirring this up. The media has done a good job of keeping it off the front page, as far as I am concerned. [Inaudible] say, I am consuming a lot of media right now, because I am laid up. And I do not see it. What I am seeing is, it is crazy people out there, putting their videos online talking about, you know, how to prep for this type of thing. How much ammo do you need, you know, what kind of property you need to build. So that stuff is going on, those people are crazy. And there is like they are getting more and more hits, more and more likes, on their, on their, on their pages. SM: 35:37 Right. I know, it is more, I know, Morris Dees wrote a book, maybe 15, maybe six, maybe 15 years ago about the militia. And I think it is as applicable today as it was when he wrote it. Have you changed your opinion at all about boomers since you have aged? DK: 36:30 Just like I said, I see more of the areas where we could have done more follow through. And we have not. And so yeah, that is that part about me is a little disappointed in some areas. But I think in the, for it is time, we, we did a good job. And we made the country aware of what was going on. But I think at this point in time, what I am seeing is the boomer generation, the-the women who are involved, are the ones who are more active and more, more willing to be out there and in front and do leadership. You know, to me, that is important to see the women are picking it picking it up. SM: 37:10 I agree. I agree. And I hope I hope one day we really get equal pay. DK: 37:17 Yeah. SM: 37:17 Equal pay for equal work, I know that this has been a big issue, it is still is in some positions, because of the position everybody is paid the same, like in Congress. But the thing is, that they are still not being paid, what men are paid. And they still have to, you know, continue the battle. The-the, would you describe the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s as the most unique generation in American history? I say this, because back, you may have heard this from your peers back when we were both young, whether it be Kent State or SUNY Binghamton or another, any other college, students felt that they had this feeling that, a good feeling that they were going to change things and for the betterment of society, they were, that they were going to be the change agents for the betterment-betterment of society, they saw they would see it wrong, and they tried to right it. Your thoughts on that, that they, that this feeling that we are unique, we are different, we may be the greatest generation in history. They thought that in their youth, I am not sure if they think that now. DK: 38:27 Well, I never thought that my youth always thought that we were just part of these movements in this society that we live in, this country we live in. We were just picking up the mantle and carrying it forward. Now the generation that I attribute that is probably the most changed, did the most change in this world, would be my parents’ generation that fought in World War Two, that survived the Great Depression, and brought the prosperity to the world that we have out there. And that that, to me was probably the generation that had the biggest impact on society in this world, you know, in my lifetime, but I think we were just part of a, you know, part of the movement in this country to move forward. And you know, we did not have any big world war, but we had our own skirmishes in Cambodia, you know, and Laos. So yeah, I mean, I do not know I do not, I never got that feeling that we were, you know, major change agents in the world. I never felt that at all. SM: 39:35 I have about six other questions before we get to the Kent State, but I am going to go right into Kent State because I think it is important here. DK: 39:43 Yeah. SM: 39:43 These are the questions; I got a whole series here. Why did you why did you choose Kent State, and I think you have already explained that and your major in teaching. Were you a conservative or a liberal? How would you define yourself? DK: 40:00 Well, if I look back at what I was, in context of today's reality, I would say I was probably a liberal. But I just, I was still, in my mind at the time I was thinking about, you know, all these issues, how I, how I need to approach them, how I need to address them, and you know, how they affect me, and what can I do about that? You know so I did not really think of myself as a liberal or conservative. I was considering myself as someone who was trying to figure my way through this world at this point in time. Oh, yeah. So yeah, I would say, looking back, I would say I was probably a liberal but at the time I was just curious. SM: 40:41 On that, on that weekend, starting with the, when Nixon gave the speech, that we were going into Cambodia on April 30, it sent a wave around the country of protests. I mean, like, golly, I cannot even, you know, it happened on our campus. Did you attend and support all the events over those four-day periods, and on the 30th, and then the 1st, 2nd and 3rd? DK: 41:07 Well on the third, obviously I was in the, you know, the local tavern watching the speech and you know, [inaudible] to televisions, not television, televisions, remember back then we did not have huge TVs like we do now. SM: 41:20 Right-right. DK: 41:22 But I was, I was in there. And everybody was taking notes. I felt out of place. I felt like I went to a classroom out of Oakland. And it was quiet, except for whenever it was over with, there was a lot of booing. And then there was a long discussion on the way back to my dormitory, Tri Towers. And then the next day, I remember going to classes. And then I went home. I was home for the weekend. And the district youth were at our church while I was there, sort of facilitating the activities that were going on and discussions that was going in a small group, discussions about the war in Vietnam, what had happened, that sort of thing. So, I was gone Friday after classes on the 3rd, Sunday afternoon. So, I missed all that. But I was [inaudible] by Church of the Brethren, people I knew who were younger than me, year or two younger than me, helping facilitate the discussion that was going on during the district youth rally at the [inaudible] Church. SM: 42:31 When you left, Dean after the speech on the 30th and went back home, and then you came back to your campus a few days later, were you shocked to see National Guard troops there? DK: 42:43 I truly was. In fact, it was not just on the campus. I mean, it was clear up on the edge of town, South 43, the route 43 on my entrance into campus was I was driving north on 43. And we pulled up there and my dad said he saw what was happening. He said get your driver's license out your ID card out. And I will take, I will do all the talking. I said, "why?" He says, "Well, I used to be a truck driver in World War Two. I told you that. But I went through lots of checkpoints, I know exactly what to do." And he said, "just hope the guy that comes in the window is not a second lieutenant because I do not have a good respect for them. I hope it is a sergeant." And sure enough, it was some sergeant. [inaudible] had a little conversation with him about being a World War Two veteran and taking his son back to school, taking him back to, you know, Tri-Towers and the guy said, "Well, you are going to have two or three more check points before you get there. And you got to [inaudible] order here, sir." My dad said, "Do not call me sir." [laughter] SM: 43:51 Wow, I did not know about, all these checkpoints just to come back to your college? DK: 43:56 Yeah-yeah. There was a check point when we got to the edge of campus. SM: 44:01 What were they looking for? Troublemakers? DK: 44:08 Probably. [laughs] SM: 44:10 Yeah, that happened, that happened at Michigan State when I went to visit a friend of mine there and he said, "Well, you better have your ID" and I said, "why?" "Well, you will find out when you get here" and yes, they thought we were out of state agitators. DK: 44:25 Right. You got, there was not both your ID and your driver's license [inaudible] SM: 44:30 Yes. DK: 44:32 I was saying, our driver's license were paper if you were a member of Ohio. Yep. SM: 44:37 My golly. So, you got back to the campus and that, what were all the students thinking there in your residence hall? I mean, this is what the this is the third? DK: 44:50 Yes, yeah. SM: 44:54 What were they go- what was happening in the residence halls? DK: 44:56 Well, I do not know what was happening in the residence hall. I got there in time for, you know, evening meal and unpacking and that sort of stuff. But nobody was talking about it. You know, they were discussing what was going on there. People were discussing about what was happening in Cambodia. People were telling stories about how they had been stopped by two or three soldiers who had bayonets on their rifles, pointing them at them, telling them to drop their books, searching them and that sort of stuff. But yeah, there was all this uneasy feeling about what was happening. And, you know, there was a lot of discussion about that whole uneasy feeling, feeling to sum it up in a few words. SM: 45:40 Yeah, I have been doing enough of those remembrance events to hear you and Alan and all the others talk about the experience. And the fact is, I keep asking one question, where was the president? I mean, I am not talking about President Nixon, where was President White? DK: 45:57 Right. [crosstalk] SM: 45:57 Where, he was on he was in a conference waiting to get on a plane and get the heck back to the campus. I mean, I cannot understand that. DK: 46:06 Right. He was in Iowa, I think. And he came back Sunday. And that is about same time Governor Rhodes made that impassioned speech to the fire department. And I think President White just washed his hands of the issue, said the governor's been here, the governor's taken over and the National Guard have taken over and I think President White just washed his hands of the whole issue [crosstalk]. SM: 46:35 Wow, see that that is, I mentioned, I think I have mentioned that the Alan years ago, just in a conversation that is weak presidential leadership if I have ever heard one. And number one, he should have been fighting for the students. And he should have, he should have not allowed them- I well, I, you know, the governor can override him, but he should have challenged him more. DK: 46:56 Absolutely. SM: 46:57 And, and it is because he could have prevented a crisis. DK: 47:02 Yeah. SM: 47:03 And that is where you need the leadership. The next day, the day the day that really, I think, shook the world. I think you need to know this Dean that you know that the reason I am in higher education, the reason I changed my career goals. The reason it was it was because of what happened on that day. I wanted to I wanted to go into higher education as a career with a hope that I could be an administrator that could work for students, try to bring faculty, students and administrators together in harmony not in, you know, into battle. And, and I think my story is the story of thousands. DK: 47:46 Oh, yeah, [crosstalk] SM: 47:47 The loss of the loss of four precious lives and the wounding of four, or nine precious people is inexcusable. DK: 47:57 Yeah, absolutely. SM: 47:59 And as Alan and, and you, I think you all agree from a couple of conferences that it was murder. DK: 48:05 Yep. That it was. SM: 48:06 But can you explain, and this is important, because people down the road will hear this interview, and we will all be long gone. But Kent State will never be gone. And the [inaudible] the remembrance event, is going to be major. But I know right now, three people at Harpur College, who I do not even know, in their interview, said that the thing that changed their life was Kent State. DK: 48:36 Wow. Yeah-yeah. SM: 48:38 Could you desrc- could you describe that day on May 4th, in your own words? DK: 48:46 To follow up on what you were saying there, state sanctioned murder is basically what it was. You know, it was, Governor Rhodes made such derogatory remarks, he said that "We will do it. We will do anything to eradicate the problem." [phone rings] SM: 49:05 Do not worry about that noise. I am in a room here with the phone. Hold on one second. [banging] I cannot do anything about it. It is the phone. Go ahead. DK: 49:30 Basically, [inaudible] saying we have to do everything we can to-to eradicate the problem. They called us, said that we were the worst elements that we harbor in our society, that we were worse than the Brown Shirts, the Night Riders, the vigilantes. So, he was demonizing us and I think justifying his future actions that he thought might happen or maybe did not think that happened, sort of was setting the stage, being an agitator. And so that sort of gave, you know, gave people, you know, the green light to do whatever they needed to do. So yeah, something like this should never happened in this late the 20th century. SM: 50:16 Now what time, what time did you will walk over to the field? DK: 50:20 Well, I got up that morning. And although my professors’ offices [inaudible] I was not coming to classes this morning, that I would be in my afternoon classes. And that was back when you had to, you could not miss unless you were deadly ill, and you always called in to let them know you were not coming to class. That was Kent State. Because only the year before they finally allowed women and men to visit each other in our dormitory. SM: 50:47 Wow. DK: 50:49 There were not- yeah. And so, I remember getting up that morning, and walking over with a couple of my floormates to the area. And we all got [inaudible] we got lost along the way. I was planning on going to my 1:10 class. So, I had paper and a couple of pens in my pocket. So, I could put them in my notebook notes that I was taking that particular, the rest of the afternoon in my last two classes. And we were standing on the side of the hill, watching what was going on. There were a couple of people with a bullhorn, talking about the isms of the day. I was getting a little bored. And then I noticed that the National Guard, were moving around over by, in ruins of the ROTC building that were burnt down, and thought, "Well, something is going to happen here." And next thing I know there is an officer bullhorn who told us to disperse, we were illegally gathered that sort of thing. Even though there was no damage being done, there was no rioting being done. No anything other than students standing around and listening to these people with these bullhorns talking about the isms of the day. But them coming out and I have to say student, students threw lots of rocks and stones at the National Guard. But they did not get very close. They had a, they had a, I do not know if it was a security guard from the campus or, but we did have our own police department, you know [inaudible] department, or somebody from the city police, I cannot remember now, who was riding in the seat with a bullhorn. And then we went back, and students started chanting all the [inaudible] chants of the day. 1,2,3,4, we do not want your f-ing war. Pigs off campus, and the like. And then they came out with the National Guard and, you know, told us we were gathered illegally, read the Ohio Riot Act to us. And of course, students continued to throw stones, but they stayed, you know, good 100 yards away. Not too many people had the, you know, the arm of a centerfielder to play for any professional baseball team. So, there was basically no harm done there. And then I saw them go back and I saw them putting bayonets on their rifles and checking their rifles, I saw them getting out the grenade launcher that they were going to launch the tear gas canisters with, and then they all formed up in formation and poot-poot-poot. You know, half a dozen tear gas canisters went flying through the air. And of course, the area of the commons surrounded on, you know, three sides by hill- hills, I should say. SM: 53:41 Right. DK: 53:41 And it was a fairly, fairly windy day. So, there was a lot of a lot of swirling winds. So, the tear gas did not have the desired effect that they probably wanted to have because students were able to run away from the area and go up around Taylor Hall on the sides. The other side of Taylor Hall and they got out of the way, went down the hill on the other side of Taylor Hall into a parking lot where some kids eventually were shot. But I went past that and to another parking lot across the street, across midway drive. And I remember at that point in time, pulling out a baggie that I had for a wet washcloth and actually had two wet wash cloths, so I could wash off my face then rinse it off as well and, did not have anything to dry it off with but, you know, it was a windy day so it was going to dry quickly. But got the tear gas out of my eye. And I remember standing there watching them come down the hill from where I had just come and go into the practice football field, which was surrounded on three sides by a fence. And another four or 500 students were on the same hill where they had just come from, and basically formed a [inaudible] around them. So, they were totally surrounded by, you know, a chain-link fence and a group of students. And at this point in time, there were a lot of students who were throwing stones from the National Guard, but, you know, again there are 100 yards away. And so, nobody was hitting anything, the National Guard, we thought were just there to shoot tear gas at everybody. I remember one National Guard from picking up a tear gas canister and throwing it back at the students. And then I saw them huddled together. And after they huddled together, they got in formation and marched from where they had come. And then I sort of followed along, staying about 100 yards away, I was curious. I looked at my clock, and it was about 20, 25 after noon. And when they reached the top of the hill, they turned and fired. I mean, I grew up using firearms, and they are turning, and they are lifting their rifle, a very deliberate act. There was no hesitation. There was no, you know, thinking about it. As soon as they pulled those [inaudible] and pulled those rifles up, I said, "Oh, my God, they are going to shoot." I could not believe it. I was mortified. We were jumping on the ground because there was no trees to hide behind. And I was laying there hearing the shots. And all of a sudden, I heard shots landing on the ground around me, not landing but going into the ground around me. And then I got hit, and I said, "Oh, my God, what had happened." Shot me. And then I regained my consciousness quickly again, or my, my awareness, realized there was still bullets hitting the ground around me. And I thought, "Oh, my God, I hope I do not get hit again." And then all of a sudden everything stopped. But while the shooting was going on, I mean, it was chaos. People screaming and hollering. The shrill of their voice, it is just amazing. I just could not believe the noise that three or four thousand people were making, at that point in time, it was shocking to hear. Then there was a lull, a quietness. And then all of a sudden, there was more screaming, more shouting, more hollering. And then all sudden, there were people gathering around me with the look of shock and horror on their face. They were traumatized. These people were looking down at me lying on the ground. And I was not bleeding externally, my bleeding was all done internal and so there was a pool of blood that went through my-my back, it just went inside my shoulder blade, I can reach around and put my finger on the bullet hole. But it has damaged my lungs, and my diaphragm. And my vertebrae and my spinal cord, shattered three vert- three vertebrae, thoracique, 9, 10 and 11 hit me and ricocheted off of there. And the bullet is still in me, I have shrapnel all through my body. And my [inaudible] I should say and seemed like it took forever before an ambulance got there. And I remember [inaudible] the journey, putting me in the ambulance and driving off campus. And there was an odd sight I saw on my trip when I got out on Main Street headed towards Ravenna was the fact that every other telephone pole, there were telephone workers up on the poles and it is probably six of them that I saw. I thought, "Now that is an odd sight as I am going off campus here, why are all those guys up on those telephone poles?" Hospital found out later that they shut off the [inaudible] campus so there will obviously be some pre- planning going on if there was a catastrophe and, you know, they turned off all the phones then they ordered everybody to leave campus. But back to my story I remember getting to the Ravenna hospital, I remember being put on a gurney, you know, a regular hospital gurney and I remember hearing a nurse holler, "Get blood types on all these people!" and I said to myself, "I just gave blood at the blood bank last week so I got my blood donor's card and while I was digging around for it, I pulled out my other blood donor's card from Mercy Medical Center, where I have been giving blood [inaudible] high school and [inaudible] high school, and then, I thought [inaudible] need my insurance card. They are going to need my ID, my driver's license. And I had a card that I had typed up with my parents' phone numbers on it as well. Let us just go back because once I got shot and shooting stopped, I forgot to tell you this-that an African American student came over to me and asked me who I was, and did I know the phone numbers for my parents. And I gave them my parents, two work numbers because I knew they were both at work today, that day. And we went into Prentice Hall and called my parents within five minutes of me getting shot. So, they heard about it firsthand, from an eyewitness, instead of hearing about the news, and then waiting here to see if their son was all right. SM: 1:01:02 Right. DK: 1:01:03 So, my mother was the foresight that she had, she called our bishop, we do not we did not call him bishops, they were district secretaries. But they were the equivalent of a bishop, say like in the Catholic Church. And she called him, and he said, "You are lucky you caught me, if you had waited two or three more minutes, I would have been out the door on my way to Robinson Memorial Hospital [inaudible]. So, I will look him up as soon as I get there. So, he drove to Ravenna. And I was able to see him before they put me out to operate on me. And we had a little prayer and a little time together, talked a little bit. And then they gurney- wheeled me out to operate on me. So those were the things that happened to me immediately after the shooting. And then I wake up Friday morning with all kinds of [inaudible] stuck in me, and all kinds of [inaudible] and clapping and supplement breathing. Because this crazy computer aided machines, these were all mechanical machines running to keep me alive at that point in time, and when I was fully conscious, I remember like Saturday morning, the nurse came over and said, "There is an FBI agent over there who would like to talk to you." I said, “Okay, send him over." So came over, he identified himself, I do not remember his name. He says, "I got some questions for you." I said, "Oh, wait-wait, wait. Our family attorney is a guy named Harry Schmuck." And the guy sort of got a little white in the face. I said, "He is an old farm boy and I helped, helped him bale hay, and help him deal with animals. He is my attorney." And then I saw him sort of turn white, and I said, "why do you look so weird today?" "You mean, the Harry Schmuck?" "Yeah." [inaudible] He goes, "yeah, I have my [inaudible] in Cleveland," because these FBI agents were from Cleveland. SM: 1:03:19 Oh, wow. DK: 1:03:19 He worked, what was that famous murder case, the Sheppard case as it was? SM: 1:03:24 Yes-yes. DK: 1:03:26 He was. He was a young attorney on one of the, I do not know if it was the defense or in the prosecutor's office at that point in time, I think he was on the defense team. And so, you know, he was a rather flamboyant little farm boy. Harry was so [crosstalk]. SM: 1:03:46 Well, you had a good one. DK: 1:03:48 I apparently had a good one. I did not know. SM: 1:03:50 Yes, yeah. DK: 1:03:51 He was good. He It was just another farmer who was a lawyer. And every time I visited his office, the had his barn shoes sitting on a tray just inside the door of his office. So his office always smelled like horse shit and cow shit. SM: 1:04:07 [laughs] Well, he knows who his roots were. Now Dean, how long were you in the hospital? DK: 1:04:18 Well, I was in the hospital from May 4th to May 21st. In Robinson Memorial Hospital, then I was a part of this new program trying to get people from their initial spinal cord injury into a rehabilitation center as early as possible. It went from May 4th to May 21st. That is what, 17 days that I was in the [inaudible]. And then I was in the rehab center. They told me when I on my intake that I'd probably be there until February or March of (19)71 because of the seriousness of my injury, because they had to the break three ribs to get into me to manhandle all my organs to look for sharp metal, to repair the organs if they could, and they sewed up my diaphragm. And then they put me all back together. And so, I was really sore. And because I had a spinal cord injury, they could not put me on a frame with tension. So, I had to lay perfectly still on my back for four hours, then they would take six people to rotate me onto my stomach for four hours. And then they would rotate me on my side for four hours, and then my other side foot four hours. SM: 1:05:50 Wow. DK: 1:05:51 For three, three months until the hematoma the big pool of blood that was surrounding my three vertebrates finally went down. And they, you know, they then at that point in time that I was allowed to start sitting up a little bit at a time. SM: 1:06:11 Wow. DK: 1:06:13 Spent that time but I finally got out of the hospital, I defied all odds, I was being an athlete, I was motivated and know how to take care of myself. In fact, I do, I still do whatever I can, even in my horizontal space at this point in time. I do 50 Pushups every time I get into my cart, then I have a set of five-pound dumbbells that I use to exercise my arm to keep my muscle [inaudible]. So, I was able to get released from the hospital on October 25 (19)70. And I got out in time for Halloween and was able to go back to school in January, of (19)71, much earlier than expected. Yeah. SM: 1:07:04 And did you go full time for the rest of the time until you graduated? DK: 1:07:10 Yes, I did. Yes, I did, I did. SM: 1:07:13 And when did you get that degree? DK: 1:07:15 Well, because of my interruptions to my education from various things I had to do and learning how to live life as a paraplegic or a spinal cord injured person. It took me a little while, but I finally graduated (19)77. So, yeah, there was a lot of interruptions where I was part of the quarter but would not, would not be able to finish it so. SM: 1:07:42 And was that still in teaching? DK: 1:07:45 Yes, yes. It always was. SM: 1:07:48 And did you go out and become a teacher, when you left? DK: 1:07:51 I taught for 15 years as a teacher at the end of my career. Prior to that I was in politics and government. I worked for the, first my job was, my first job out of college was with the Industrial Commission, Division of Safety and Hygiene. There was a new program that was being started to help employers make their businesses accessible for their workers who came back disabled from work injuries or non-work injuries, but also to do an accessibility survey for the employers to make their businesses accessible for the disabled so that the disabled could get jobs. So, I did that for two years. And then I was approached by the Democratic Executive Chairman of Athens County and asked me if I would be interested in working for Tony Celebrezze, the newly elected Secretary of State of Ohio. And the interview had two interviews with them, and he asked me if I wanted to work for him and I told him I would. I would still be doing the same type of work, but I would be working with boards of elections and making them accessible in 18 counties in Southeast Ohio. But I knew these counties from my work with the Industrial Commission, Division of Safety and Hygiene because I was already working those 18 counties. And so, I worked for Tony Celebrezze for a couple of months, for four years. And then when he was elected the Attorney General State of Ohio, I continued to work for him. But I switched over primarily with lawyers, judges, that sort of thing. But I must say that one of the major accomplishments was when we left the Secretary of State's office, the facility we left the Secretary of State's office, 99 percent of the board of elections in the state of Ohio were wheelchair accessible. And I think that 80 percent of the polling places were now wheelchair accessible. And the last thing, last [inaudible] that he had, as a Secretary of State was, he started the process of computerized voter registration [inaudible] which I was able to facilitate by region. A lot of resistance that so I would bring the copies of the forum, leave the, there. And once I made all the stops at all eighteen counties. I started back again; I would spend the day sitting in their office. He tried to put me in some office, nope, I want to be right in the middle of everything. They set me up an office and I would sit right beside the big card catalog they had. And I would pull out the letter "A," start typing. So, I got these forms. And I think, I shamed them because by the second time around, they were already doing it. So, we started the process to get a statewide voter registration letter. And then to put it on the state computers, getting started to computerize legislation, which we now have, I think in all fifty states. SM: 1:09:21 Right. Wow, you were involved in some important work. DK: 1:11:24 I was doing some good work, I enjoyed it. SM: 1:11:27 My golly, and you know, what I really admire is that, you know, you had this setback in your, well, a major setback in your life, you never planned to be in a wheelchair, and you still went on with your life and you are doing good things. And you are giving back to is, it is, it is all about giving back to others. DK: 1:11:46 Yeah. SM: 1:11:47 And you are obviously, you know, the-the injury in terms of wheelchair accessibility, I look at campuses now. And I am sure, I even do it at Kent State when I visit, because that has been a big issue at where I used to work at Westchester, that all buildings needed to be accessible by wheelchair. And we still have one building at Westchester University that will not do it, because it is on the Historic Register. And if they had to do what they had to, they have to take some stones off of the-the outside of the building. I do not know where they are with that, but it is still wrong. The rest of the campus is all accessible, but one building is not. DK: 1:12:26 [inaudible] After I got hurt, and I was hauled away, even before I got home, when I was in the hospital. I mean, I was visited by people from I do not know how many states, but it was a lot of different states. It was all, it was in the summer, I was in the Rehab Center in Cleveland. And people would drop in out of the sky blue- professors, students and, you know, student leaders from various private and small colleges and big colleges. All came and brought me books, to spend time with them. And church leaders, many denominations came to visit me while I was in the rehab center. And so, you know, there is all this discussion about, you know, "What are you going to do next?" Well, "I want to go back and finish my education and be a productive member of society." And I got a lot of support for all of that. And I really never, never, I never had any other feeling. And the same with my family, you know, my mother heard that I would go on vacation and do something in society, whether it be, you know, working in a local community or whatever. So yeah, I mean, there was no hesitation by any of my friends, my colleagues, or acquaintances that I was not going to get up and go be a part of society. That was never even in my head to begin with that I would not withdraw from society-that I would withdraw from society, that would be a productive member of society. So yeah, there was just not there was no-no hesitation by anybody, or me. I knew I was alive. The thing here is I was thankful that I was alive. I could have been dead because you get hit with a 30-06 m1 caliber rifle. That is the same weapon my father carried in World War Two. And my father, now to the day he died, was so angry that I was shot by the same rifle that he carried World War Two. SM: 1:14:45 Wow. DK: 1:14:47 [inaudible] that the M1 Garand was used to shoot me, but he used it to help save the world from tyranny. SM: 1:14:53 Wow. DK: 1:14:54 Yeah, that is, that is- SM: 1:14:57 That is, that is something. I did not know that. DK: 1:15:01 Yeah, one sad part of his life he never overcame. SM: 1:15:06 Wow. DK: 1:15:07 Yeah. SM: 1:15:10 Over the years, when did you get to know the people that were also wounded at Kent State, and also the families of those who had died? DK: 1:15:19 Within a year, within a year, I got to meet them. Because, you know, there was lawyers who were representing all of us. All those lawyers got together, and all those lawyers got all the families together. And we started dealing with the strategy of how we were going to deal with this issue. We were going to hold the state of Ohio accountable for what they did. And so that is where I met them, I met them at a hotel in downtown Cleveland. But I had also met many of the students who were wounded at Kent State because many of them were still going to school- SM: 1:16:04 Right. DK: 1:16:06 -at Kent State. So yeah. That is how I met everybody. SM: 1:16:15 The remembrance events now, in linkage to this tragedy. This murder, as some of the programs have described what, there has been 49 years of, I believe in the very beginning, though, you were not allowed to have remembrance events? Or I do not know what was going on here that in the early stages, but this is-? DK: 1:16:41 Oh, [inaudible] SM: 1:16:41 Pardon? DK: 1:16:43 Yeah, it was a year later, they had a big commemoration. [inaudible] commemoration September of (19)70. Phil Ochs, Bang, I met the Reverend Ralph Abernathy there, I forget the other celebrities that were there as well. When you were talking about people who were, you know, baby boomers and Richie Havens. Richie Havens, I think of Phil Ochs at the same time. SM: 1:17:09 Oh, yes, definitely. DK: 1:17:11 Yeah. And so, you know, I met all those people as well. And there was a large contingency of Vietnam Veterans Against the War. And those guys were the ones that actually took care of me. When I went back in September of (19)70, they were there, and they were around me so that nothing would happen to me. SM: 1:17:41 How did your- how did your parents get through all this? Now, obviously, they were there for you as their son, but how- your mom and dad, how did they react to this the same or differently? DK: 1:17:55 Well, they both react differently. Yeah, my mother, being a being a woman, obviously, is very verbal. But the comparison I like to make is that my mother gained 50 pounds, my father lost 50 pounds. And when I talked to my neighbors later on, as I got older, I talked to my neighbors about the whole thing and found out that we had one neighbor that they went and talked to, and one neighbor describes my dad coming up there and just crying with his head on the table. And my and she would also then describe how my mother was just so anguished about what happened. And then then my siblings, you know, my sister when she got home from school, found out about it, and my parents were already in Robinson Memorial Hospital at that point in time. So, my sister basically ran the family. She was two years younger than I am. So, she was a Senior High School, and she was basically taking care of my other two siblings. I had three other siblings, I had two sisters and a brother. And she is just now in the last few years, started to talk to me about it about how [inaudible] it was and how frightening it was and how scary it was between mom and dad, the way they were reacting to what happened. And, you know, it really made a big impression on her. SM: 1:19:36 What did you personally learn from going through this tragic event? DK: 1:19:39 Well, I learned that, you know, we live in a participatory democracy and if you do not participate, you get run over. And I have, every speech I have given in my lifetime, I have always told people to register to vote. Fighting the issues, fighting the candidates and then vote. I also, I also tell people that they have to be involved. You do not have to run for office like the US Senate or whatever. You know, there is lots of kinds of things that you can do. You can either run [inaudible] Trustees, village council, you can also, you do not want to run for office, you can work on various boards and commissions, that public officials make appointments to. You know, children's services, MRDD, Alcohol and Drug Addiction committees, all kinds of activities out there that you can be involved in and be part of your government. You know, you have to, you have to be involved in making your local government thrive. [inaudible] Democracy [inaudible] like I said, it is a participatory sport. You have to be involved. You are not involved; you are not making a decision and it is important to be an active productive member of society. But I have included that in every one of my speeches. SM: 1:21:07 It is very important. Excellent. You know Kim Phuc, the girl in the picture from the Vietnam War? DK: 1:21:16 Yeah. SM: 1:21:17 Yeah, we brought her to our campus, and she talks about the whole issue of healing and so forth. I want to just; I wrote this comment down and from about her and linking with you and I want your thoughts. Kim Phuc, the girl in the picture, has devoted her life to healing and sending messages that healing is the best way to overcome tragedy. She forgives the, the, the pilots, who dropped bombs on her village where she was burned over 80 percent of her body, and she lost her brother. DK: 1:21:51 Right. SM: 1:21:51 A pain she has every day she lives with every day in her life. Have you been able to heal from a different tragedy in some way, knowing that the National Guard that did this committed a terrible crime, murder of four and wounding of nine, and will pay in the end, but you have moved on in your life and have, have you healed a little bit yourself? DK: 1:22:17 I had to work at forgiveness. And I think forgiveness is more than just saying, "I forgive," It is something you have to do regularly, almost daily, sometimes. Because I have a constant reminder about what happened to me. That reminds me of the four key students who were killed. But, you know, I am not going to forget, I wish at some point in time, one of them would give us a deathbed confession about what really happened. And, you know, it is important. And I think one of the reasons none of them have spoken up is because murder has no statute of limitations. And they are all afraid. The governor and their general were able to scare the daylights out of those people, so they are never going to talk. I just hope at some point in time, one of them will do a deathbed confession about what really went on that particular day. So yeah, I have moved on. But I have not forgotten. SM: 1:23:21 Yeah. And Dean, is it? Is it true that most of the, most of the guys that were in the National Guard have died? DK: 1:23:29 I do not know. They were not. There were not 18- 20-year-olds, like everybody talks about. [inaudible] were all close to 30 years old, so I would not doubt that they are getting [inaudible], several of them have died already. SM: 1:23:47 Right. Well, maybe, would not that be interesting if we could get one of those people to come to the event next year and tell the truth? DK: 1:23:57 Yeah. SM: 1:23:57 Would not that be and-and I think that person even though he committed to, he committed a crime, would probably get support from those in attendance. DK: 1:24:09 [agreement] SM: 1:24:10 Finally, being honest and truthful. Do you see anything in America today? How would you define the divide you see in America today in (20)19, in (20)19, are there any links to the divide in (19)70? DK: 1:24:26 Well, the only link that I see between the divide now and divide then is the fact that, to use modern terminology, they use of hate speech as continues to prevail in our society. Back that we used to call it radical rhetoric by the right or the conservatives or Republicans [inaudible] point, but I think that is the only real link that we have today. I think what we have here today is a want to be authoritarian or want to be dictator, who is frightened because he is such a corrupt person, that he does not know the consequences of his actions. Whereas Richard Nixon was very aware of the consequences of his actions and was a little more maniacal in the sense of knowing the limits of his authority, and the responsibilities he had with the office. This particular tyrant does not know the limits of the building [inaudible] knows the responsibilities that goes with the office. And then there is a small group of people out there who have no limits to begin with. And I think those are his ardent followers. So obviously, Nixon had his ardent followers, but, you know, they were they were quelled by the fact that Nixon knew the responsibilities and the job that he is after, where this guy does not know the responsibility of either. So. SM: 1:26:20 Got a couple more questions here that just give me the hi-sign here. I did not know this. I had to leave at 4:50. I thought was going to be here till 5. DK: 1:26:29 Oh. SM: 1:26:29 Let me go try to get, here is one. What do you think the lasting legacy of the (19)60s and (19)70s is? DK: 1:26:39 Well, I am not afraid to give credit where credit is due the Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act, you know, who sponsored those [inaudible]. The improvement of women's lives going forward a little bit as well. I think the improvement, the little improvement there is for the civil rights of African Americans and people who were different. The fact that, you know, people in society were not afraid to speak up about the war. There was a war, that we, that hasn't stopped our society from allowing it to happen. So, it is a mixed review. Obviously, some good things have happened. And the lessons have not been learned. Because we-we repeat some of those historical lessons that children learn. So yeah, it is an era and a time of turbulence, and education, and change. But like all eras, or generations, you never get 100 percent of what you want. SM: 1:27:50 Right. DK: 1:27:52 There will be forces out there that control the levers of power. SM: 1:27:57 Do you think we as a nation have healed since the Vietnam War as a nation, Jan Scruggs wrote a book, "To Heal a Nation." And when he wrote that book, it was about healing the Vietnam veterans who had served in that war, the ones who, obviously the families of those who died. And, and then, of course, and he and he knew he was his effort, when the-the wall opened in (19)82, that veterans are finally saying, we were welcomed home for the first time. Have we healed as a nation since the war? DK: 1:28:31 I think we have partially healed as a nation since the war. I still see the fact that veterans are dying because of their exposure to Agent Orange, getting those diseases that go along with it. And the VA's still struggling to take care of those veterans. And you have got the big chasm, the big polarization that is going on between people who were considerate and trying to make the world a better place and those who want to abuse and take advantage of the resources and the society that we have. You know, so. And is the fact that the rich keep finding excuses to deny equal pay to people of all economic status, status, statuses. But yeah, I do not think we [inaudible] heal but part of society has, some parts [inaudible] along the way. SM: 1:29:41 And then I will probably end with this, Dean because they just told me I thought I had till, I thought I had two hours here. 10 more minutes, but I am going [inaudible]. In a few sentences, or less, or even maybe a paragraph, describe the (19)60s and (19)70s in the way that only Dean can describe it. DK: 1:30:09 Well, for me personally, it was a period of growth and development. It is also a period of understanding responsibility of being a member of this great Republic that we live in. And learning the lessons that democracy only works if you participate and being part of the process of making government work. In the (19)60s, and (19)70s, (19)70s were a period of growth and development and learning to become a productive member of society. And also learning to live by life in such a way that I am proud of what I have done, and that other people can learn from examples that I, the way I have lived my life. I think that would be the probably the best way to describe. SM: 1:31:07 Do you ever, do you ever feel feelings like some people have, but others do not have. Why me? [crosstalk] Was I am in the wrong place at the wrong time? I mean, why do you ever have that feeling? DK: 1:31:24 I do not have those feelings now. But in the early days, [inaudible] after I got hurt was in and out in the rehab center and stuff, I felt that. But then I went through some good psychological counseling to deal with the issue of [inaudible] my disability, being a strong, strapping farm boy and an athlete, to understand that I can still be a strong, strapping athlete and a productive member of society through that counseling that I got, and no, I have not felt those feelings in, you know, nearly 50 years at this point in time. SM: 1:31:58 You know, it is amazing. Kim Phuc's story is a little bit like yours, but in with different circumstances. She is a very religious person, very religious. And if you have seen her, we brought her to the, well, I wish she could come to the, to the 50th anniversary, I just, it is about healing. It is about, it is about forgiving, and a lot of things but religion plays a very important part. She has got 80 percent of her body is burned. DK: 1:32:01 Right. SM: 1:32:28 But it has not deterred her spirit of healing and forgiveness. And you do not have to forgive people who have done things. But in the mere fact that you were paralyzed from the waist down by a tragedy, but you have used your experience to help the lives of others. DK: 1:32:49 Yeah. SM: 1:32:49 With your work and government with all these other things, you and Kim are two peas in a pod. You need to be in a room, you need to be in a room together and shut the door and just talk for four hours. I mean, I am serious because you have had different stories. Very serious tragedies. But you have moved on with your life and helping others. DK: 1:33:15 I have always admired her story. There is no doubt about that. SM: 1:33:19 Well, I am, I am in the process of getting a hold of her to okay her interview with me because I got pretty close to her when she came to Westchester. But in my email to her, I am going to say I would love to someday, if you can get a link up with Dean. I think I think if you could have just a conversation, just the two of you talking together. Maybe one day that can happen. DK: 1:33:43 That would be nice. That would be nice. I would enjoy that. SM: 1:33:46 Now, the last thing I am going to say is, is there any question I did not ask that you expect, you thought I might ask? DK: 1:33:53 Well, actually, you are pretty thorough. And if you have any future questions, do not be afraid to get a hold. SM: 1:33:58 Yeah, well, I have been cut about 20 minutes off my interview here, but I will let you know that Dean. And- DK: 1:34:04 Well, I will keep this phone number in my directory with your name, so. SM: 1:34:08 Okay, yep. Okay, will do and what will happen here as we will be after this interview, the Center here will get the tape, they will mail it to your email address. So, I need your email address. DK: 1:34:24 It is just my first name and my last name deantaylor@gmail.com. SM: 1:34:31 Okay. At gmail.com? DK: 1:34:35 Yep. SM: 1:34:36 Alright, I do not know when they are going to do it, but I just, you are the second interview I had today, and they will send it to you for you to listen to and okay it. And then I think I have a picture of you already that I took of you, so I do not have to worry about a picture. So. DK: 1:34:50 Okay. SM: 1:34:51 All right, Dean, thank you very much. May God bless and may you continue to be, you know, be healthy. I will be thinking of you as you are battling. I guess you are not feeling very good right now. DK: 1:35:05 I am feeling good. I just felt hurt myself two years ago, and I have had all kinds of complications related since then. But I am getting there. I am getting to the point where my body is healing, so I am in good shape. SM: 1:35:18 Well, you are very important person to be around. So, you know, I look forward to seeing you at Kent State. Definitely next year. DK: 1:35:27 Absolutely. SM: 1:35:28 And, and I will be in touch with you, you thank you very much. DK: 1:35:32 You are welcome, Steve. Take care. SM: 1:35:33 Yeah, you bet. Bye now. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dean Kahler https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cc33a44a045a9375a12d98a6cad46f1a.jpg 854c4aa8ddb1ade16914a8c9fb7c9324 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9eef207a6d0e2fd23611421b3ce022c1.mp3 61e03e23844f18cf8299ec9125939447 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 8/7/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Burns Jr. Biographical Text John Burns Jr. is the fourth oldest of 12 children of Binghamton's former Mayor, John Burns. He lived for several years in Albany, NY, where he owned a restaurant called Downtown Johnny’s. After many years in the restaurant business, he moved to Jupiter, Florida, where he ran a real estate practice. John eventually moved back to Binghamton, where he excelled in real estate and raised all of his 3 children who attended the Binghamton School District. Now, he has 2 grandchildren, Johnny and Lincoln. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 02:04:27 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords 1960s; Mayor John Burns; Rockefeller; John F. Kennedy; PT 109; McCarthy; Cuban Missile Crisis; Robert Kennedy; Bobby Kennedy; assassination; 1968 Democratic National Convention Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: John Burns Jr. Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger Date of interview: 7 August 2019 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:00 SM: All right. Let me put you on the, on the speakerphone. Hold on. Can you hear me? 00:11 JB: Yeah. 00:11 SM: Okay, great. Yep, that comes over good. Well, first off, I want to [crosstalk], I want to thank you, Mr. Burns for agreeing to do this. I was a big fan of your dad. He was here when I was a student at Binghamton. So, but– 00:25 JB: Right-right. 00:26 SM: –but– 00:27 JB: Okay, [crosstalk] 00:28 SM: The first question, the first question I want to ask is if you could tell me a little bit about yourself growing your-your growing up years, where were you grew up, your family. Those early influences on your life. 00:41 JB: Yeah. Okay. So, you want me to start right now on that? 00:50 SM: Yes. 00:52 JB: Okay. Well, let us see. I am the fourth oldest of 12 children of John and Theresa Burns. John Burns was when I was growing up, he became- I was born in (19)51. The last day of (19)51. He-he was elected mayor in (19)57, and started his term in (19)58, what could have been (19)58 or (19)58. Anyway. So, I was [inaudible] as a young kid, he became mayor. Those were the days of urban renewal. I will get flowing here [inaudible]. Alright, so. So, growing up, you know, a lot of this, Kennedy related relates to my father and his background, and then, you know, I was I was part of it. But so anyway, so I grew up in a house back in (19)50s, early (19)60s, they paid the mayor 15,000 a year. So, we, so we were not rich, and we were not totally poor. But that was just the way it was. So-so we were Irish Catholic. My father was a was elected mayor. He followed another Democrat that had served two terms. And Binghamton at that time was two to one Republican. And so urban renewal and the and the dawn of the American highway system. That was what was going at the, in those days, early (19)60s. The, you know, they were putting a highway route 81 and 17. That is what Binghamton is the capital of two rivers, the Susquehanna and Chenango rivers and the-the two highways of 17 and 81, and now 17 I think it is getting converted to 86. So anyway, so there was, you know, there is a lot of complaining about urban renewal, you know, that they were tearing down buildings that were historic, and a lot of there is a lot of truth to that, that you know, that they were tearing down historic buildings, to replace with, you know, modern, what have you, and parking, but at the same time, there was no money in those days to restore those kinds of buildings. They did, they did keep a lot of buildings, you know, Binghamton still has a lot of nice historic buildings, but they did have to make room for multi-level parking lots, you know, new, they built a new city hall, etc., etc. But John Burns was part of that. John you know, Mayor John Burns as part of that, but he was not, you know, like the only driving force, you know, they took administration before him to get the ball rolling. So anyway, John Burns, at that time Robert Kennedy you know, as you know, President Kennedy was assassinated in (19)63. And so about I do not know, a year after that, or two years after that. Attorney General, I guess it was the former Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, started a campaign and started putting together a campaign to run for the United States Senate from New York. And I remember they called him a carpet bagger and what kinds of things but there was a lot, he was a popular guy. People loved him. And, you know, a lot of you know, came from just the Kennedy family in general. But so anyways, his-his main residence was in Alexandria, Virginia, we actually went down there once and visited at a big fundraiser they had. But anyway, so-so, as I recall, Senator Kennedy asked my father, to assist him, as maybe his upstate campaign manager, I guess you would call it, I do not know, if there was an official title. And then Mayor Wagner of New York was the you know, the downstate campaign manager, and you would see them both at different events in Albany with-with the Attorney General. So then, my father, oh no, I got to, I got to tell you. Just go back two years, I think or one year. My father ran, he was drafted at the convention to run against Rockefeller and Wilson, and the Democratic ticket was Robert Morgenthau and John Burns. And, and that was what gave him the Upstate notoriety and relationships that he developed with other mayors and executives in upstate New York, you know, Rochester, Buffalo, Albany. So, you know, because of that suicide mission of running for governor against Rockefeller, the, you know, it helped his political career. You know, notoriety in the state and downstate too, so. So, then, so Kennedy decides to run, my father is, is helping him with the upstate campaign, he travels around the state with him, and they become fast friends. And there was some synergy between them, you know, they were both all Irish, my father's 100 percent Irish family that came to the country in (18)48 famines. And-and anyway, so, you know, his great, grandfather, came from Ireland, that kind of. So, let us see. So-so they became good friends, John Burns had 12 children, and oh, was-was having 12 children during that time. And, and Kennedy had, I do not know, I think he had like, 10 or 11, or something like that. Yeah, he had 11 kids, so we had him beat on that one. Anyway, yeah that is right. So, they were, they were good friends. You know, during that period, my father, you know, we always tell a couple of stories about how my mother's home during the week, and Dad was, well, this is after the well, getting ahead of myself. So, my father tells us one story he calls up, you know, we every-every Saturday, my father would go to city hall when he was mayor into work, and he would not be you know, disturbed by appointments and things like that. So, he would go into the office and there would not be any staff there. But my mother would stop and say you are not leaving me with all these kids. You have to take the boys. So, the boys would go to city hall with Dad in the old 1800 City Hall, fabulous place. 08:48 SM: He had 11. Yes, yeah. 09:47 JB: Anyway, so we would always like you know, just run wild through you know, city council chambers and, you know, press all the buttons and that led. 09:58 SM: Yeah. 09:59 JB: So Anyway, so one day says we are there on Saturday, I listen to boys. He says, I am making a very important phone call. And no one pick up the phone. No one start pressing these buttons. Very important call. So just you know, have fun, but do not do not play with the phone. So, anyways, he is calling the residents of Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, wants to talk to him. And so, he calls and Butler, somebody answers the phone, he says, "I would like to speak to, this is Mayor John Burns of Binghamton." And so, you know, he says "hold on please" so he goes to go see Robert Kennedy, and all the sudden he hears a click on the phone. He goes, "who is that?" He goes, "Joey, is that you?" And Joey says, he says, "what?" Says, "get off this phone, you dirty rat." Joe, and Joe Kennedy says, "what?" He goes, "is this Joey Burns?" He goes, "no, this is Joe Kennedy." He goes, "Oh, I am sorry, auuuugh." 11:17 SM: [laughs] What a story! 11:18 JB: [Inaudible] Kennedy [inaudible]. So anyway, he told that quite a few times. But anyway, you know, they became good friends, they would be, you know, on the campaign trail. And, you know, he would be you know, dealing with, you know, that I do not know, if it was the Presidential- probably further down the road, you know, you know, they are, you know, you would be in the hotel room with Kennedy be in the next room taking a shower, they would be yelling back and forth about what they are doing, what is next. Anyway, so Kennedy was, and so he is, at that point, the highest elected Democratic official in New York State, because there was [inaudible] other statewide candidate or statewide officer who was left [inaudible]. He was a controller. And then you had, you know, the Republican, you know, [inaudible] Wilson, you had, Senator, I do not know why I cannot think of who the other one was but–– 12:29 SM: Was it Keating? 12:30 JB: Keating I think is the seat that was open for Kennedy. 12:33 SM: Oh okay. Very good. 12:34 JB: Yeah. And, and the other one was, I just do not remember, sorry. So-so anyway. So, Kennedy wins. Everybody is really excited. He takes over the Democratic Party. And he picks and chooses just like the governor does now who is going to be the state chairman and you know all that stuff. And so, so they generally would pick a guy from upstate New York, because it kind of ties the party together, because there is such a dichotomy between the needs, and the interests of upstate New York versus the, you know, New York City area. So-so anyways, I do not know if that [inaudible], but there is different ventures. So-so John Burns is Kennedy's choice, he becomes the democratic state chairman. And that changes our lives in Binghamton because he retires as mayor, you know he gives up his mayoral seat. And then they-they, they did not elect, they just voted an appointment for a year. They appointed my Uncle Bill Burns, which Bill looks like a little nepotism there, but I do not know. Anyway. So-so turns out that Kennedy-Kennedy, becomes the state chair- or John Burns becomes a state chairman and he now, or even before that was wearing his PT-109 [inaudible] And I do not know, did you ever hear about that? 14:18 SM: No, I did not hear about that. 14:22 JB: That was the sign that you were part of the Kennedy organization, is if you had a PT-109 plug on your side. 14:32 SM: Right, because of Jack, yeah. 14:35 JB: They came from-from the President Kennedy's election, but you know, they carried over. I just gave mine to my brother Joe. So anyway, I found one in New York in a Flea Market, a real one. It was like, "Oh my God, this guy has no idea what I have got in my hand," you know. So, anyway- 15:03 SM: What happened to your dad's? What happened to your dad's? 15:07 JB: One of my brothers probably stole it. I think that he has it, but when my parents died, it was like, you know a free for all. You know, I plan on taking this and I will walk into an apartment, you know, or at someone's house or my sister's houses and I will see like, some, you know, painting that they cherished, you know, that they get, I was the executor of the estate, what was she doing with painting on the wall. 15:41 SM: I was I was in your mom and dad's apartment when I interviewed them. 15:47 JB: Yeah, yeah. So those are the pictures. Yeah, but they all abscond. Anyway, let us see. So- so-so yeah, so dad, you know, he explained to us about PT-109 boat. But so, he, you know, developed, his world changed. You know, he went from a little guy in Binghamton, New York to the Democratic state general with a with a hotel suite upstairs in the Dryden East Hotel. Down in the basement was the offices that democratic state committee and the democratic state committee had a, or the-the Democratic Chairman, there were different rules back then. And there was a different power structure back then. And a lot of that was rectified. But came up when, you know, McCarthy was running for president and then McGovern's people came the next time, and they changed the rules of the state of national convention, the chairman had the lion's share of the, of the delegate assignments, you know, they had, they only elected, you know, it was it was more of a, you know, it was not a majority of the, of the delegates elected, you know, in the local elections, the chairman would hand out these things. So, that being said, you know, like the McCarthys and Humphreys, and these guys, you know, they came calling because after Kennedy died, you know, they want they knew, who had all the delegates, it was the chairman. McCarthy did a great job of getting people elected and their mailing, you know, we had to jump them way ahead, but. 17:58 SM: Right. 17:59 JB: You know, their mailing of letters, you know, requesting the state chairman to support McCarthy, even before, even before Kennedy died. But once he died, you know, we in my house we would receive, you know, hip height, bundles of letters from everywhere. And, you know, all, you know, reaching out, and requesting that, John Burns support McCarthy, I will get back to that. So, alright, so, so now, Kennedy, Kennedy is the United States Senator. And he is very popular as far as, as far as our lives are, we loved the guy. And we were like all, we were all, you know, really paying attention to politics. And really, you know, in it, you know. Of course, you know, my father would come home on weekends and he would be in New York most of the week, but he did have offices here, the old [inaudible] at 50 Front street, now there is a new apartment building down there. That was where the offices were for Binghamton, for the state chairman. And then and then we our lives changed in that you know, we were, we would be in New York a lot. We would go to a lot of the big dinners and, and, you know, and it was, it was a lot of notoriety of, you know, this Irish guy Burns with his 12 kids, you know. And when we were when he was campaigning for lieutenant governor, prior to Kennedy's, Kennedy's, in fact, that was before (19)6- there must have been (19)62 I think, because that was before President Kennedy died. We have, here is an interesting note. When Morgenthau Burns ticket was running, and they were running as Rockstar, during that time, was the was the Russian missile crisis. You know- 20:20 SM: [Inaudible] yes. 20:20 JB: –Jeff Kennedy thing, you know, Cuban Mission, Cuban Missile Crisis. And-and during that time, it was in the fall or in the summer, and they were campaigning Burns, and Morgenthau and Burns were campaigning. And this is this is, we have a picture of the president, Robert Morgenthau and, and John Burns. 20:46 SM: Wow. 20:47 JB: And that picture, like it is a, it is a palm card. You know, I have it. In fact, I will send you a picture of it. 20:55 SM: Yes. 20:55 JB: So, understand, at that time, when they were in this motorcade, and they were in New York, and they were campaigning with the president United States. If you have watched the movie 13 days [crosstalk] 21:14 SM: Yes, I saw it, yes, I did. 21:16 JB: During that movie, there was a point where there was the big showdown, and his advisors in the White House that look, you got to go out, you know, people need to see you. You got to go out and act normal and be seen and give confidence and stuff, right. So that is where he went. In that picture of Morgenthau, Kennedy Morgenthau and Burns, was during the Cuban Missile Crisis. 21:47 SM: Oh my gosh. 21:49 JB: Yeah, yep. That is a fact. And then, so I had this, I used to have this picture of it with these captions. And [inaudible] but captured over-over Morgenthau says, "We are going to get our ass kicked." And then over Burns it said, "What am I doing here?" And then under- over Kennedy, it said, "We are all going to die." 22:18 SM: [laughs] Well that is not funny, but you know. 22:20 JB: Yeah, right. So anyway, so-so the, so that that was an interesting point in time. 22:30 SM: How did- 22:34 JB: Then I was gone for I went to Ireland with my brother Patrick. We went to Newbridge College. The county [inaudible] there is a boys boarding school of Dominican monks. My father was, became friendly with Paul O'Dwyer and a couple of these Irish born fellows that the guy that owned all the Blarney stones. You know, Paul O'Dwyer? 23:01 SM: Oh, yes, I do. Yeah, that white hair. Yeah. That white hair and- 23:05 JB: Yeah. 23:05 SM: Yep. 23:06 JB: Yeah. Those-those eyebrows. 23:07 SM: Yes. 23:08 JB: Those white eyebrows. 23:08 SM: Yes. 23:10 JB: Yeah. His brother was the president city council in New York too. So anyway, and Paul O'Dwyer, Paul O'Dwyer defended the Ayatollah Khomeini. Everybody deserves to have a lawyer. 23:22 SM: My God, I did not know that either. Wow! 23:26 JB: Yeah, he represented Khomeini. But anyway, he also ran for Senate you know after Kennedy was done. Anyway, so where are we so it is the (19)60s. The President has gone. And Senator Robert F. Kennedy and then, then the Presidential thing starts going, you know, like, the Johnson, he is running for reelection, gets, he gets reelected, did not he? 24:06 SM: Yes, he did, he got- 24:07 JB: Oh, no, he gets elected. 24:08 SM: He got elec- Johnson got, in (19)64 he won big and then he withdrew before the next one. 24:16 JB: Yes, yes. And when he withdrew, you know, they were campaigning, and Dad was, you know, like, winning against [inaudible]. When Kennedy announced for that he was going to run against a sitting Democratic president as the United States senator, and that United States senator, that was a powerful-powerful thing. And, and, you know, most political people in the country, you know, thought this guy was just committing political suicide here. He was running against a sitting president, Democrat, and they did not think they would do that well. I-I think, I do not know, you might know better than me. But so, when he announced, he had to show strength, he had to show where there was support and things like that. And the first place he went after announcing was to a testimonial dinner for John Burns and banks in New York. 25:24 SM: I did not know that either. 25:25 JB: It was Binghamton. 25:26 SM: Oh, wow. 25:28 JB: He came to Binghamton. And because you know it, first, you got to show that your-your Democratic Chairman in the state, you are from is for you, and that he is showing up with people that are Kennedy people, you know, there was plenty of people that were not Kennedy people in this state. But-but, you know, they, you know, they knew how to, you know, build momentum, and you know, how to show support. 25:55 SM: Was there any pressure with- 25:57 JB: Dinner for Dad, and then they had a dinner for Kennedy here. But I think it was. I do not know what the data that was, but I have the programs for both. 26:09 SM: Oh, my gosh. 26:10 JB: And let us see. So-so Kennedy started campaigning, and going around the country and doing his thing. And it was, you know, it was tough. McCarthy was running against them. Or no. He-he challenged McCarthy. 26:30 SM: Yeah. 26:31 JB: That would be- yeah. 26:33 SM: I interviewed Senator McCarthy, my very first person I interviewed back in (19)96. 26:38 JB: Wow. 26:39 SM: And when I asked the question about Bobby, you could see he was still upset even though Bobby is long gone. And, and he said, he said, "Read it in my book." Because– 26:53 JB: Oh, wow. 26:53 SM: –McCarthy had written. Yeah, I know, there was some there was some tension going on. And also, at the (19)68 convention after Bobby had been killed. And I got questions I want to ask you about LA and all the other things. But McCarthy disappeared at that, at that convention. I mean, he-he just like, why did, he just everything, when Bobby died, it seemed like he died. I mean, it was just like, I could not understand it. 27:20 JB: Well, he was still around. I mean, he was still running, in fact my father told me when we were getting all those letters and all that thing that I was like, asking my dad about like, "What about this, what about that?" And he said- you know, I might have a video of me asking him this stuff. But anyway, he said that. He said, he says, you know, he said, "I wanted to support McCarthy. You know, like what he represented, and his, you know, level of integrity, you know, to do what he was doing and everything" he says, "I wanted nothing more than to support Joe McCarthy. He said, you know, he says he was being solicited by, you know Hubert Humphrey was like, hot on the trail. They meet in restaurants and help you make a big deal and chairman and blah, blah, blah. But anyway. So, he said that McCarthy came to his office, and they sat down. And he said that, you know, the guy just did not light a fire. He was very, you know, kind of like a professor. 28:38 SM: Yes. 28:39 JB: We really liked your support. And he was not like a, you know, you know, he just lost Bobby Kennedy. Kennedy had a fire in his belly. And, you know, he was ready to go, you know. 28:52 SM: Right. 28:52 JB: And he just, you know, was not exciting. He thought, you know, he says "I got a lot, I had a lot of on the line at that point, and if I backed the guy that you know, was going to lose and just did not have any excitement to him," he said, you know, "I want to get first as well." And so anyway, he said he wanted his support but he said and, and he, John Burns, you know, they got assigned all these Kennedy chair- all these Kennedy delegates. A lot of them were elected, and a lot of them got appointed, and all that. And then, of course, the McCarthyites, you know, are worse, you know, they are at the other end of this left spectrum you know. And kind of like these days, you know, and so, you know, they are all willing to go, you know, like commit suicide, you know, harry carry over, you know, I always say that any candidate that can-can get enough con- political contributions to get elected president, I would not vote for. You know what I mean? I do not mean that. But I make it as, you know, a joke. Like, you know, anybody that did not raise enough money to get elected I would support, you know, it is like, gradual marketing, where you have me as member of their club I would not join. But anyway, so, where are we? So. 30:39 SM: To Bobby's running. 30:40 JB: [Inaudible] talking about, you know, running for president, he declares his candidacy. Everybody is just very excited. You know like, who is going to be next with the Burns family, I mean you know. That would have been really good for us on a political level, you know, maybe Washington or maybe Irish Ambassador or [crosstalk]. And when I was this, this is kind of an interesting little sidebar, when I was a student at Newbridge College in a secondary school, you know, it was high school in Ireland. My father came to visit. And Aer Lingus has got word of it. And at that time, Pan Am was trying to get into Ireland, be able to fly into Ireland. And I think that the Irish were resisting it or something. I do not know the exact, you know, stuff what was going on, but, but I know Aer Lingus is wanting to cozy up to Burns because they think he had some kind of power. You know, it was a national thing that the United States Senate would vote on. So anyway, Kennedy's support. So, when he came over to visit at Easter time that he like, you know, they had him on the front page of Irish Independent or, you know, the government paper. And you know, him holding us some shamrocks and his hand, somebody greeting them from either Aer Lingus or whatever. And then we went to Phoenix Park is where the, I think Ambassador lived. And we went to an event there and then the Secretary of the Interior, whatever his title is in Ireland, they brought him to dinner and they were really floozing him. We traveled around the country. We went to a hotel, they would have, we would walk into the lobby of a hotel, they have all these flowers, champagne bottles, or champagne. Big deal. So, my father is trying to tell him "okay," you know, "I do not really, you know, I do not really have any say in this matter." But, uh, you know, I mean, truth be said, I mean, he probably did have some influence on it. And he probably, you know, would have, you know, Kennedy smile or something, you know what I mean, but I do not think would have had any real effect changing some national law. 33:37 SM: How long were you? 33:38 JB: But anyway. 33:38 SM: How long were you a student over there? How many years? 33:41 JB: I only stayed, I only stayed a year. My brother Pat- I did not want to go back because I was I was too homesick. I was like 14 years old. And but my brother Patrick, two years older than I, went back another year and graduated from the school. And, and that was why well, that was why it was a funeral in the wake. Patrick was not there because he was in Ireland. 34:07 SM: Right. You duck talking about the- could you talk about that a little more about that year (19)68. Your dad was obviously, you know, vowed with, that whole year and then put it put prospectively your dad's thoughts on that year, and of course, Bobby's death and everything. 34:32 JB: Yeah. So, Bobby Kennedy died on June 6th. And so, when he died, you know, that just took the wind out of ourselves. I mean, everybody was crushed. And you know, what do you do, where do you go? You know, who is going to do what. And, and so, so let us see. So, I mean, you know, a lot of things were already scheduled set up, you know, Democratic Convention, all that stuff. And the delegates, you know, the primaries where they elect delegates. And so, so a lot of things were already done, Kennedy died. And they have to do the funeral, the wake and the funeral in New York. So anyway, we go to the we go to the event, we go to the wake. My father has gone, you know, in meetings most of the time, but, you know, we still had dinner and such. So, so we go to the wake, couple of my brothers, and a fella that was one of my close friends growing up. He was, he was like an adopted member of the family because his house was so far away from school and we lived right down the street. So, he lived in the third floor with us most of the time. And, Matt Ryan is his name, he later became the mayor of Binghamton. Anyway, so, so there was this moment, the way you know, we were, you know, then just thousands and thousands of people are coming in. And so, but they would switch out what did they call it? Ushers, now. We were not ushers, we were, you know, we would stand at the, at the casket. We were- now I cannot think of the term. 36:58 SM: Pallbearers? 37:00 JB: No, not pallbearers. We were guards, we were you know, well it will come to me in a second. So-so we stood, you know, and we stood I think it was like 15 minutes or 20 minutes or something after at the casket. And pall- not pallbearers, shit, what is it? Anyway, so we stood there for a while. And, and, you know, people would come, you know, we would be standing back from the casket or by, you know, a couple of feet there. Then, you know, people would walk to the casket and keep, you know, maybe touch the casket or something, walk by. And so, while we were there, Mrs. Martin Luther King, and her entourage, like Abernathy, you know, whoever else? 38:03 SM: Andrew Young? 38:04 JB: But, uh. 38:04 SM: Yeah. 38:05 JB: What is that? 38:06 SM: Andrew Young, was he part of? 38:08 JB: Yeah, I mean I am sure [inaudible] Andrew Young. But anyway, they came in and walked past us, you know, and that was another significant kind of poignant moment. That, you know, these are my, these are my- I do not know. So anyways, so they come by, and the last time that she had seen Bobby Kennedy, was Bobby Kennedy went to see her immediately, you know, after her husband was assassinated. 38:44 SM: Yes-yes. 38:46 JB: And, and so now she was standing there, you know, with his dead body. And yeah, it was just unbelievable. What was going on then, you know. And I call it my Forrest Gump moments. Because you are like [inaudible]. 39:08 SM: Yes, you are right. 39:09 JB: So, I was, you know, I was, I was at these-these places, you know, like, it is like, wow. So, anyway, you know, we were there for that. And then the next day was the funeral. And I went, got a ticket for the funeral. I still have this ticket. And there is a stamp on it. That said train. And, and that was my pass onto the funeral train. I was on the train from New York to Washington where all the thousands and thousands of people were there, you know, and another Forrest Gump moment. And- 39:48 SM: Now it is not just you and your dad or was it other members of your family? 39:52 JB: I think [sighs] I think it was me I think it was me. And they put me in the, you know, the news car, you know, reporters and typers, all that stuff. And then, my mom and dad were up front in another car. 40:18 SM: Right. 40:21 JB: Anyway, on that, you know on that train ride Ethel Kennedy and her son, I think it was Joe. They came through, thanked everybody for coming in. That is right, I thought. And I had actually met them before, at their house, McLean. But you know, people they do not really there is so many people that they meet, you cannot expect they know. So anyway, I was on the train, and then I caught up with my parents when [inaudible] when we got there, and we went to the burial. And it was significant. He was a significant guy, you know, just an amazing guy [crosstalk]. 41:15 SM: Now I want to ask you, how old were you when the funeral was happening? 41:20 JB: 17. 41:21 SM: What- you were a 17-year-old, you know, you got a- 41:25 JB: What year is this, (19)56, right? 41:27 SM: No, it was (19)68. (19)68, and I was born in (19)51. Yep, so I am always amazed. What- you, I can imagine what is going through your dad being a close friend of his, but you are the son. I mean, what can you reflect upon what you are going through mentally? You know, you are a 17-year-old person and you are looking up to a pound- you got dad who you are very proud of, and you have got a person that he works with and for, who he is very, you are very proud of, and then all of a sudden, he is gone. 42:05 JB: Yeah, it was, it was horrible. You know, that night that day. You know, the, you know, we were also you know, we were glued to the TV sets when-when the for the for the Oregon- is it the Oregon primary? 42:30 SM: Yeah, the Oregon- 42:30 JB: Then they came down to Cal- no, they were going to Oregon next, I think. He won California, right? 42:37 SM: Yes, he did. 42:39 JB: Yeah, he won California then the next primary, which he was on his way to having enough delegates, you know, he had a major shot there. I do not think anybody was going to stop him then. You know, so our, our segment, it was not just, you know, benefiting, you know, financially or anything else, the Burns family. It was the, the political ideals and the leadership of-of, of this guy. 43:23 SM: Yeah. 43:23 JB: But, you know, that was, you know, that was, you know, it was so dynamic and, you know, we were all, you know, [crosstalk] wrapped up in it. You know, we were, we believe we were believers, you know what I mean? 43:41 SM: Well– 43:41 JB: We believed in America, and helping and helping people, integration issues, you know, the things that he worked on, and he believed and the Viet- I mean the Vietnam War, we were all, you know, we were all you know, on board with, you know, with all of those things. And, you know, we were the young ones really, you know we were 17, younger. 44:14 SM: Were you in Los Angeles, were you and your dad in Los Angeles? 44:18 JB: Now we were on, we were at 123 Leroy Street, watching the TV. And then I went to bed. And Matt Ryan was watching TV down in the living room with somebody, couple of the kids. And then he got shot, and Matt woke me up and told me, and then we went to [inaudible] watch TV and it was, he was gone. Bam-bam, bam. 44:44 SM: You know, it was really, you probably know when Bobby attended the funeral for, at Ebenezer Baptist Church. He was sitting on the left side of the church and he was made the front cover of a magazine because the sun was coming through the side window. And that was focusing on him. And that was during the funeral of Dr. King– 45:05 JB: Wow. 45:05 SM: -and he had tears in his eyes to during that, in that picture and, and one of the things that, and I like your comment on this, earlier in Bobby's career, he was considered a pretty tough cookie, you know, he was with his brother on those, those committees against some of those, I guess they are [crosstalk] those guys and so, but then all of a sudden we see in (19)66, (19)65. And when he became senator, this kind of an evolution of a really compassionate person who deeply cared about people who were, you know, especially going down south and all the other things. And so, he-he kind of evolved, you know, into someone that everybody really liked. So that is another thing too. So. 46:00 JB: I got a letter from him. I am sure. I am sure he signed it, but I doubt very much that he wrote it. But I got a letter, I was coming out of the classroom in Ireland, we were coming out of lunch, and I was walking across the courtyard, you know, one day we got in the mail, you know, the envelope says "United States Senate." And so, I open it up, and it is a personal letter from-from Senator Kennedy. 46:29 SM: Oh, wow. 46:30 JB: Yeah, it said, it said, I will tell you exactly what it said. You have to give me a second. Ah, it is someplace in the house, 46:52 SM: Okay. [crosstalk] All right. 46:53 JB: But anyways, it says that, you know, that your dad says, that you are in school in Ireland, and blah-blah, blah. And, you know, working hard, it was an encouragement letter because I was complaining about being there, and I did not want to be there anymore [laughs]. So, he says, "Ahhh" and he sends me a letter from Senator Kennedy. So [inaudible] I mean, Kennedy was like, you know, like, you would see a picture of Jesus on one wall in Ireland and a picture of President Kennedy and the other. 47:32 SM: Yes, yes, definitely. 47:34 JB: But anyway, so yeah, that is in my office. But anyway, so-so, I got this, I am walking across the courtyard. And one kid looked at it, and he goes, "That is not real signature. [Inaudible] senator drop of rain." But gets the signature and smeared the ink. Just the slightest bit and I go, "Ah, it is a real signature." And anyway, so where were we, we were talking about something. 48:10 SM: Yeah, I want to ask you what-what when you were in school here back in the Binghamton area and not over in Ireland, and you were the son of the mayor of, mayor of Binghamton, and then you were the son of the person who is kind of the chair of the upstate Democratic Party and then you were friends with Bobby did that, did that put pressure on you at school? When-when people, "Oh you think you are a big shot or." 48:37 JB: Oh [crosstalk] 48:37 SM: I was curious, what how did it affect you? 48:41 JB: Yeah, people well you know, there is always going to be a percentage of people in life that if you have any level of success or notoriety they are not going to like it. 48:56 SM: Right. 48:57 JB: And then there is the Republican Party you know what I mean, so you know they you know. There was a lot of Repub- there was two to one Republican when he was first elected, I mean it is a Democratic city now but- 49:10 SM: Right. 49:10 JB: -but they would always be, you know, kind of naysayer’s type of thing. And let me make sure, can I take a break here for a second? x49:31 SM: Yes. 49:31 JB: I have to use the restroom really quick, hold on. 49:33 SM: Yep-yep. 49:34 JB: I am going to put you on mute. 49:35 SM: Yep, very good. [audio cuts] Yep, we are on. We are on. 49:44 JB: Okay, so anyway, shit you were back at... Oh, yeah, you were asking me about you know, how to people treat you and stuff like that. 49:55 SM: Right. 49:56 JB: You know, in Binghamton, a lot of people, you know, my age, you know, they were not, they did not have a level of political awareness, like we did. You know, because we were, you know, we were surrounded by it. You know, there would be an article once in a while about the Burns kids or something, you know, because that was kind of like a notoriety, you know, of having, you know, being the mayor and having 12 kids, you know, it was the 12 kids’ thing. But, you know, there was always some, you know, embarrassing moment or somebody you know, got in trouble or something it was like, you know, you were like, defending, or, you know, stopping, it was a lot of people. 50:51 SM: Right. [crosstalk] Go ahead. 50:57 JB: No, go ahead. 50:58 SM: I was going to ask a question, and before we get into some other questions, you know. Bobby's death and Dr. King's death and Jack's death and the constant impact and, you know, shock-shock, shock-shock, which shocked so many Americans in the (19)60s, this is like the (19)60s and (19)68, in particular were the, what happened at the Democratic Convention. It– 51:21 JB: Oh yeah. 51:22 SM: Yeah, it is, um, I guess- 51:24 JB: I was at, I was at the convention too. 51:27 SM: Yeah, what did you think of that convention? 51:31 JB: Well, I mean, that was one of the best night ever spent. So-so there was the, you know, the Kennedy camp and the McCarthy camp, and the Hubert Humphrey camp kind of thing. You know, Burns was trying to deliver the, you know, the Kennedy stuff to Humphrey I think. And, you know, so there was, it was it was the Democratic Party in New York. I mean, they were all at each other's throats all the time and it was. 52:13 SM: Yeah, well, that connect convention with all the protests going on outside. 52:18 JB: Yeah. 52:18 SM: Yeah. And the– 52:19 JB: Yeah, they sent me they sent me to go get some credentials, because that was the first year it was ever real security, you know, you had to have, you know, this thing around your neck, a plastic encased. But it still did not have a picture ID, it was just, you know. It was like a pass to get in. I do not think it had a picture ID because I was using other people's stuff, and they were letting me in, you know. 52:52 SM: Well that convention with what was going on outside and they arrested some of the reporters inside. I think it was Dan- I think Dan Rather got arrested. I think it was John Chancellor got arrested. 53:04 JB: I was watching. I was up in the you know, alternate stand there. And I was watching Dan Rather, you know, fighting with these guys when he got arrested. 53:17 SM: Well, I think– 53:17 JB: And there was a guy I gave my seat to from Georgia, Julian Bond. 53:28 SM: Oh, yeah. 53:29 JB: I mean that was the- that was when Julian Bond became a national figure. That convention. 53:37 SM: [Inaudible]? 53:38 JB: I mean, as far as I never heard of him before, and all of a sudden, I see him a lot after that. 53:43 SM: Why-why would what why did Julian become a national figure from that convention? 53:48 JB: I am not sure. I think that he spoke. I think he gave a speech. I think he was I do not know if he was a congressional representative. But he was definitely a spokesperson for the you know, for the Black movement, the country. And but he was an elected official have some sort, I just do not remember. [crosstalk] Yeah, he is a cool guy, you know. Good speaker, have a good kind of presence, you know, very staid. 54:29 SM: Yes. 54:29 JB: Yes, you know. 54:31 SM: I interviewed him. 54:34 JB: Oh, did you? 54:34 SM: Yeah, I interviewed him down in America, American University. Before he asked me to go into his class to speak on oral history interviewing [laughs]. So no kidding, no kidding. And then Julian came, I brought him to West Chester University to speak. And, of course, he passed away pretty fast a couple of years back. Finally, we get we were able to get the tape sent to him, sent to his wife for the final okay. Well, one thing I want to ask you because you were a 17-year-old and I was I am was a 21-year-old, I think at that particular time. And I would be curious, you know, I asked this question to your father too, I believe is that the whole issue of elected leaders and trust in elected leaders and during the (19)60s too because of the Vietnam War, and the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution which a lot of people thought it was really a farce. It was just a way to get involved in the Vietnam conflict. And so people started to have a lack of trust in some of the leaders because they felt leaders were lying to them. And then we have the deaths of Dr. King and Bobby Kennedy and-and then what we saw the Democratic Convention, which is and you are a 17-year-old, and you have got other brothers and sisters that are probably what, they are seeing all this stuff and-and of course your father's probably even though he is very involved in politics is wondering probably how it is affecting the kids. His kids, I just want to know, did you start not having trust in the elected leaders or were you part of that or because you have your father, you always continued to have trust in elected leaders? 56:18 JB: Well, I-I continue to an interest in politics but you know. But there was nobody taking the place of Bobby Kennedy you know what I mean, there was no, like Hubert Humphrey. He was not ringing anybody's bell, you know. And you know, who's next and obviously [inaudible] Republican. And then we started you know, I was coming of an age where I was studying and keeping my eye on like, you know, what is this you know, like if you look at, if you look at a pattern of organized, for organized [inaudible] you know, to ruin the image of someone to take the part of, Republicans are, you know, what came next? Okay. You had like Nixon, McGovern and all, let us see. So. 57:44 SM: Yeah Nixon and then you- 57:45 JB: So, Humphrey lost, Humphrey lost, and then who won? Nixon. 57:51 SM: Yeah. Nixon and Ford and Ford took over after-after Watergate, during Watergate. 58:00 JB: Yeah, Ford and then, but the next president, the next Democratic president was Carter. 58:07 SM: Yes. 58:08 JB: Was it? 58:08 SM: Yes it was. 58:09 JB: And then Carter, like I never noticed it when there was a Republican President, that there was a, you know, a chorus, an organized effort to-to, you know, to- trying to think of the word- but, you know, to, I never noticed that the Democrats do it to the Republicans. And then but then Carter became president, then they did everything they could possibly do to discredit this guy. And maybe even I mean, if I am not mistaken, they even had the Ayatollah Khomeini or-or whoever it was release the hostages but hold off. 58:55 SM: Yes. 58:57 JB: Until Carter was out of office. 58:58 SM: Until Reagan came in, yeah. Until Ronald Reagan came in. That was [crosstalk]. Yeah, I agree. 59:06 JB: [Inaudible] patriotic. 59:08 SM: Yeah, well after the death of Bobby, did your dad ever sit down with the family and talk? Just amongst the family? 59:18 JB: He would talk, yeah. Yeah, he would talk. 59:22 SM: Yeah cause I, you know, sometimes the father's magic moment is when he can get all the kids together after a tragedy and, and see how they are doing, how they are feeling, you know, their thoughts and certainly the thoughts of their father. 59:36 JB: Yeah, and it was more of a with, you know, as a father, he was more of an individual or just a few people at a time guy, okay. He might, you might be with the girls, you know, like, three other girls or five, you know, maybe all five of them. Or it would be me and Patrick and Joe or, you know different, different groups and he would, you know, or we would ride in New York with him, you know. And then, you know, going to New York, he had lots of time to talk to you, tell you what he thought. 1:00:14 SM: Did the Burns family stay, continue to stay in touch with the Kennedy fam- family after Bobby was buried? 1:00:23 JB: With, yeah, I mean, we did not as kids. I mean, I, you know, I had Bobby Jr. when I was County Chairman here, two very chaotic years. He spoke in an event that we had, we asked him to speak, and he did. And, and, but, you know, that was the only, my only real and why I cannot really think of it but. But, um, but Teddy Kennedy was, Teddy Kennedy would communicate with my father all the time. My father was, you know, he was on a couple of boards first, and, you know, Robert F. Kennedy foundations or something. 1:01:10 SM: Right. 1:01:11 JB: And they talked with Ethel, you know, Ethel and [inaudible] and he was like, you know, it was still part of the gang, you know. 1:01:22 SM: Is your becom- 1:01:22 JB: But, um. 1:01:23 SM: -is your becoming a leader in the area of real estate, and is there a, is there somehow a link between what you are doing now and what and, you know, what, what transpired in the (19)60s and (19)70s, you went into politics, obviously. But, you– 1:01:43 JB: Well, I did not really, I- when I came back from Florida, I had moved to, well I was kind of associated in politics a little bit, but I got in the restaurant business. I started, you know, working in restaurants, in the (19)70s. And then, my father, my father had become commissioner of water supply in New York. He was, he helped John Lindsay when Lindsay became a Democrat. And there is a picture in the New York Times my father handing his [inaudible] like a little clip that you put on your lapel or something, right, like a donkey, you know. [Inaudible] but Lindsay was still mayor at the time. And then Lindsey ran for president. And they, you know, my dad was a political adviser to him and that presidential campaign. And so, you know, it did not, you know, did not get any traction, he bowed out. And at that point, Lindsay appointed my father, commissioner of water supply of New York. And, and then he was the last commissioner of water supply in New York, because if you do not know, it is like a patronage to [inaudible] campaign. You know, he, he had an- a nice office someplace that did him like 30,000 a year. So, it was just kind of a supplemental, supplemental [inaudible] thing. And then he got a car and a chauffeur. Anyway, Governor Kerry eliminated that position when, you know that it was in the works. They eliminated the position. And the next day he appointed my father, as his upstate reelection campaign manager. 1:03:54 SM: Wow. 1:03:55 JB: Or campaign manager, I do not know which I do not know. But, so after the election, because, you know, he was he was not very liked upstate. So, you know, you got to get some support. So, anyway, so after he was reelected, he appointed my father. The appointments officer to the governor, he appointed all-all [inaudible] all state jobs, went to him. So, you know, so he just became, you know, like a guy on the second floor, of the capitol and the governor's, you know, floor, and you know, had a big staff and all kinds of interaction with everybody. And at that time, I left "What is Your Beef" in Binghamton and I opened up a restaurant in Albany, called "Downtown Johnny's." It was a block down the street from-from the governor's mansion, the cathedral and next to that is the governor's mansion. So, you know, they all used to come down. And when he had come into town, he had come to my place because that was where his kids were. And the Senate, the, you know, the, the assembly, you know, they all hung out there all the time. When, when his announcement came out for, you know, marrying this woman from Chicago, this Greek woman, the first place he came with his entourage was Downtown Johnny's. 1:05:35 SM: Wow. 1:05:36 JB: Like I was on the front page of The New York Times, Daily News, the post, there is an article about Downtown Johnny's and it was great. [Inaudible] 1:05:47 SM: Is that restaurant still there? 1:05:50 JB: Well, it is a different name now. 1:05:52 SM: Okay. 1:05:55 JB: I lasted a few years, and then I got out. And so anyways, that was a really exciting time. And I got to know you know, a lot of people back then, you know, a lot of people. And all those guys, all the underlings. You know, the governor’s aides and people like that, they are all the, they are all the leaders now. You know, the big shots, it is funny to watch. You know, I go back there once in a while. I go, "Wow, man, you are a judge," you know, "I used to smoke pot with you." 1:06:32 SM: [laughs] There is two things in connection with Bobby's funeral again, or is I would like you, I know you are on the train. And you know, there is the on YouTube, they show the train. And the and all the people along the railroad stops and everything. You were seeing these people when you were seeing all colors, all backgrounds. 1:06:54 JB: Thousands. 1:06:54 SM: Thousands. What, what did that say about America? And what does that say about Bobby? 1:07:03 JB: Yeah, and what did it say about Blacks? Because there was predominantly Black people, were at those train tracks, I thought. You know, I watched that video, I do not I do not see that. But my, my it was hitting me when I was watching it, wow. But-but it was everybody, of they were all there. 1:07:28 SM: It when you, when you think of that speech that Bobby gave the night that Dr. King died, I think it is one of the greatest speeches in history of, I have studied speech. That was off the cuff. 1:07:43 JB: Yeah. Oh, yeah. He was brilliant. 1:07:46 SM: And he did not know and you know, people, there were protests and you know, people were tearing up cities and everything else and he did not know how in Indianapolis how people were going to react and boy. 1:07:57 JB: Right. 1:07:58 SM: Talk about the magic moment, oh my gosh. 1:08:01 JB: Yeah. Fearless and brilliant, you know. 1:08:04 SM: Yeah, it is just and I, I go to Arlington and we all see it, some of the words that he used at that event at, that are right below where the cross is. And it is just it is really passionate. And also, the Teddy's speech was very, I thought it was very well done too and. 1:08:25 JB: During the funeral, you mean? 1:08:27 SM: Yeah, that some men see things as they are and ask, "Why." Why, and Bobby sees things that never were and says, "Why not?" I thought, you know, and he used those words all the time. Bobby, Bobby did. 1:08:43 JB: Yeah. He was a he was a great one for quoting, you know, poetry or– 1:08:50 SM: Yep. 1:08:50 JB: Greek, an ancient Greek or, you know, he is just [inaudible] 1:08:58 SM: Oh yeah, a good right-hand man, for sure. I have some, I have some [crosstalk] I have some couple general questions just about the (19)60s. So, when you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? 1:09:17 JB: Really you know, just those days those days of turmoil, Vietnam and Vietnam, Bobby Kennedy, it was a big one was the Kent State. 1:09:37 SM: Killings. Yeah, (19)70. That leads right in here. Is there one particular event that stands out for you beyond Bobby's death? 1:09:57 JB: Politically? 1:09:58 SM: Yes, politically or tragedy or politically, socially. 1:10:11 JB: I do not know, I mean, we are just talking about so much I cannot, you know like what is popping into my head is like what we are talking. But, you know, I would say that I, not an event but an awakening or an awareness of how-how the world really works in in, you know how power, you know, goes in Washington and-and places. Like, well, what was really, what was Vietnam really about? What was, you know, what are the motivations of, you know, there is so much corruption and money-making schemes and laws that that benefit. I mean it has gotten so much worse now that, you know, I mean Donald Trump is president United States. And that alone is the craziest thing that, you know, he is out of his mind. 1:11:30 SM: I agree. 1:11:33 JB: All these money investments. You know, like Vietnam, and, and a lot of these other third world countries that we were theoretically trying to help, you know, we were, we were not really doing that, you know, we really had some other agenda, we were not trying to help the people of Vietnam. Just a second [coughs]. I do not think and if you look at there is a book, it is a real simple little book, but it is written by a guy that used to be, it is called The Confessions or The Diary or something of Economic Hit Man [Confessions of an Economic Hit Man by John Perkins]. It is about United States going into third world countries, and lending them money and making them dependent on us. And you know, creating, creating business, for American businesses by you know, building a power plant, that it is really only going to benefit like the royal family of Timbuktu or something. And in the people, the indigenous people, wherever it is all displaced or sent into cities, they have no cultural, you know, understanding of any other. And it is all for, you know, some company in the United States that builds [inaudible] companies. 1:13:15 SM: Right. 1:13:16 JB: And they need electricity, I do not know, do they? You know. Anyways, I just do not know. You know, I just I just and now I am worried about the far left, you know, because they are uncompromising. They are never going to win. 1:13:40 SM: You mean Bernie Sanders and that group? 1:13:42 JB: Yeah, Bernie Sanders. And what is her name? The Bronx. 1:13:48 SM: Yeah, the four young women are in Congress now. [laughs] 1:13:52 JB: Yeah. And, you know, my sister is in Ithaca. I just see everybody, you know, like, it is, like, for example, George, George W. Bush would never have been elected president if it was not for the far left. Because they voted for what is his name that, you know the tall thin guy, what his name uh? 1:14:24 SM: I mean, you are talking about- 1:14:26 JB: Third party candidate in that presidential election. 1:14:28 SM: Yeah-yeah. The lawyer, Ralph Nader. 1:14:35 JB: Ralph Nader. 1:14:36 SM: You are right. 1:14:37 JB: Ralph Nader elected George Bush. 1:14:41 SM: Yep. 1:14:42 JB: He did not. They voted for him, the far left voted for him. And they said, "They are all just as bad as the other." No, they are not. And then that they voted against Hillary Clinton. Sorry. Hillary Clinton would have been a million times better Then Trump, or million times better than whoever the hell they want, I think. Because, she really, she understands policy, she understands negotiation. She knows how the world works. And you cannot be a person who, you know, you just cannot do it. It does not work. I am not a believer. You have to be able to negotiate. 1:15:23 SM: In your, in your, [crosstalk] in your view, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? 1:15:33 JB: I would say the (19)60s ended in (19)73. After McGovern left. 1:15:41 SM: Okay. 1:15:41 JB: That was it. And that is when they reformed the Democratic Party. MPs, you know, they did not have the chairman handing out the candy anymore, you know, they would have primaries where they could get elected delegates. And then and then that is when they, you know, they made it tougher to elect a Democrat, you know, to consolidate power into, you know, but it is interesting to see how the Democratic Party has evolved from the solid south. And those people finally woke up and realized they were Republicans. 1:15:45 SM: When did-? 1:15:51 JB: So, I say good riddance to them. We do not, we do not have that much in common with those people. 1:16:34 SM: That is true. 1:16:35 JB: They were Andrew Jackson Democrats. I did not know if Andrew Jackson was this Democrat. You know what I mean, like, Jackson was-was similar to Trump in a certain way. 1:16:47 SM: Yeah there is that historic story about when Dr. King was in jail. And-and I think it was Harris Wofford, and Bobby both went to President Kennedy to say, "You need to call down south and get him out of jail" or, you know, something like that. And I know that he, he was thinking about the Democrats, he was a pragmatic politician. That is what they always said about Jack Kennedy. And, and so the most powerful Democrats in Congress at that time were, you know, some of them was bigoted, you know, segregation and as and so it was that that was, so he had to be concerned about, you know, how they were going to react. Well, he did it. And of course, Dr.- Mrs. King just praised-praised him for doing it. And of course, Bobby and Harris were the two people that were the ones that, you know, encouraged him to do it. And it was the right thing to do to begin with. But if but that was a criticism of Jack Kennedy that sometimes he was too pragmatic in his decisions. He knew what was right. But he was too pragmatic, and it took him a little while longer, whereas with Bobby, it would not have taken him in two seconds. So when do you think- 1:18:01 JB: That is true. 1:18:02 SM: Yeah. When do you think the (19)60s began? 1:18:04 JB: I think they, oh, I mean, there was a few things leading up to John F. Kennedy, for example, John F. Kennedy. (19)60s. The [inaudible, starts singing] high hopes, so come on vote for Kennedy, vote for Kennedy and you will come out on top. [stops singing] Do you remember that song, they took the song from some Broadway show. 1:18:41 SM: Yeah. 1:18:42 JB: They made a Bobby Kennedy or a John F. Kennedy campaign song. 1:18:47 SM: Camelot. 1:18:49 JB: Yeah, [inaudible] 1:18:52 SM: I do not know. I am going to tell you, you can finish with someone who thinks the (19)60s began? 1:19:02 JB: So, you know, you know how the world was right after, right after World War Two, you know, in the (19)50s. You know, that was, you know, a boom time really, you know, like, you know, people there was only one income in the family, everybody, you know, there is a one, sometimes two cars, you know, there is a middle class, a real middle class. And it is, it is, I sat next to Senator Moynihan once at a dinner for my father in Binghamton. And, and it was right after Pataki won and beat Mario Cuomo running for what, a third or fourth term? 1:20:10 SM: Yes. 1:20:11 JB: And, well I like Mario Cuomo a lot. And so anyway, sitting next to me, we are talking about the history of the Democratic Party and stuff. He gave a little speech on that. And then he started talking about the, you know, like the, the demise of the small city, upstate New York Cities in you know, just in the Northeast United States, you know, these little small cities and what happened to them. And what happened in New York as far as, and he said, it was the dawn of the American highway system that set the stage for-for all this pilfering of other people's other people's businesses. You know, Delaware started going after, Delaware started going after New York City business companies, no factories and, and things like that. This is what I took from, I cannot remember any exact words. But when all that started, okay, and then there was this, this race to the bottom for-for the, well they were doing it with welfare to but-but for-for, you know, local companies, like, why did why did urban blight occur? Well, they started going, you know, a micro level, not the macro level of, you know, Texas just stole our, you know, Lockheed or something. But, at a micro level of, of like Joe Schmo was on the west side of Binghamton in a house that, you know, he likes house and it is a neighbor and everything else. So now that there is a route 80, 81 out to Kirkwood, he can build a house out in the suburbs, you know, on an acre lot or five-acre lot. And, and he can live out there and get the work on time in Binghamton. In fact, his work is not in Binghamton anymore, they moved it out as a route 17 exit number, whatever. And it is a new factory there. So, he hops in his pickup truck, drives down through Binghamton, stays on route 17 and gets to work in time. And he lives out in the suburbs. And now, those people that used to live in Binghamton on the west side, there is a vacancy in that house so somebody's going to buy it. So, the guy, you know, so, so there is, you know, shifting around. And so, the, the guy that would, could of used, you know, the guy that has a vacancy in his two family on Laurel Avenue in a nice neighborhood, you know, he now rents the house to the guy that used to live on the north side, he is now living in that apartment, and he is okay, but he is no great shakes. Got a job, you know. So, to now the house on the north side, the two family has a vacancy. And the only people that can move into that it is maybe somebody on welfare, you know what I mean? 1:22:47 SM: Wow. Right. 1:23:34 JB: He is not saying this, I am saying this. 1:23:36 SM: Right. 1:23:37 JB: So, what happens is, is that everybody shifts up into a different neighborhood, you know, the one that they want, American Dream kind of stuff. So that is okay, but the apart, but the apartment down on Liberty Street will remain vacant until a drug addict or somebody on welfare moves in there. And then it will become, you know, slowly, you know, mismanaged. 1:24:04 SM: Right. 1:24:05 JB: So, then you end up with a dumpy neighborhood. 1:24:07 SM: Wow. 1:24:08 JB: And that is, that is what happened. Yeah. And so then, that means they start taking the companies out of the cities. And so, the best and the brightest in those cities, like Binghamton, you know, all of a sudden IBM's gone. So, all the IBM workers move to North Carolina. And then, then all those houses are vacant. So, then the prices go down, because there is more supply than there is demand. You know, and then that impacts all the school systems, and it impacts everything. It was, it was the highways, and it was the it was the it was the taxes. You know, that what drew those companies out of those areas, is they were promised lower taxes, and they could beat the unions. They could say, "Look, you know, you do not have to [inaudible] just come down here, and hire these people" and some of them did but a lot of them did not. So it was kind of undermining the income of the American worker. 1:25:09 SM: Yes. 1:25:10 JB: You know, they would move to those areas, and go well it is warm in here, there is not [inaudible] though. Well, there better not be because you do not make enough money to pay it. 1:25:17 SM: [interjects] 1:25:19 JB: And so, I- huh? 1:25:21 SM: Continue. 1:25:23 JB: So, my opinion is that and you know, the Republicans started talking state rights when they, you know, are switching from Republican or Democrat to Republican, you know, that race is figured out that they were really Republicans. But the-the, as people lose, you know, lost their jobs, and they moved out of areas, it was all like tax incentives and all that stuff, those tax incentives lowered the income of workers, and they lowered the income, they had to get like a lot of companies to come, in order to be able to afford the deals they were making with these companies. So-so what happened was, there was this race to the bottom then, and then Cuomo will offer them a better deal, and they lowered their taxes. So now, big corporate America is no longer supporting the population and the infrastructure that they were using. You know, and it is the middle class who has been undermined in this income that is supporting the poor. 1:26:33 SM: Yeah. 1:26:34 JB: You know, and it is just crazy. You know, and then there is the internet, you know, they have like, taken the profit out of everything. And then who knows where that money is. 1:26:48 SM: I can see– 1:26:49 JB: Well. 1:26:49 SM: -yeah, you just gave a tremendous little presentation. And, you know, really, because you are talking about the Triple Cities here. But you are also talking about Cortland, New York where I grew up as a kid. Yeah, they took Brockway Truck out of there in in (19)59, I remember because we were moving, my dad got promoted. So we moved. But we were leaving Cortland. But at that particular time, Brockway took their truck company to Allentown or I do not know where it went. And then they there were some, IBM was out there and they were going to different locations and that city is really hurting and is still hurting. If it was not for the college, SUNY Cortland, they would really be hurting because right now they just shut down one of their three schools, Elton B. Parker Elementary School has just been shut down, which was a major Elementary School at that particular time. I got a few more questions, and then we will end it. It has been said that what made the (19)60s in part was the spirit of the times. How would you define the spirit of those times? 1:27:02 JB: Yeah. Optimistic. The Age of Aquarius, you know, it was a new world, it was, it was going to be great. You know, we were all you know, Woodstock and good reefer. [laughter] You know, by the way, I do not drink, I have not drunk- this is my 32nd year, this month is my anniversary month for not consuming drugs or alcohol. So. 1:28:27 SM: Congratulations. 1:28:28 JB: Do not get the wrong idea. 1:28:29 SM: I would give you a high five if you were here. 1:28:34 JB: So, but I think that it was a, it was an optimism. You know, there was a, it was a, there was a time where it will, you know, I mean we, you know, we could not really feel the impact of anything, you know, below the surface that was happening in the (19)60s, like, you know, like, companies moving and all that stuff. But we were, we were feeling the, you know, the new world like Vietnam has been exposed and it was going to be ended and, and, you know, people are, you know, there was a new music and there was, it was a cultural revolution. 1:29:14 SM: Yes. 1:29:15 JB: And I still cannot believe that I was actually partying with all these rednecks all over the United States [inaudible] Blacks, I mean, it was like, when did that happen? You were a good guy a few years ago. 1:29:29 SM: You know, itis really am- 1:29:30 JB: There is a lot of guys I know like that, you know. 1:29:32 SM: It, you bring some good points here because there was a feeling that amongst a lot of the boomer generation, but it was also the people that were older than the boomer generation too. I know around when I interviewed Richie Havens, he said, "Steve, I am a boomer in spirit, and-and I was born in (19)41." Because-because it is a feeling that we are going to change the world for the better. We are going to end you know, racism, sexism, homophobia, we are going to save the environment, we are going to be different than any other generation, it has proven not to be the case in a lot of the recent studies, but still there was that feeling amongst many of the young people. And that leads me in right into here. What-what do you think were the lessons of the (19)60s and (19)70s? What were the key lessons learned in that in that period? It can be one lesson or just, or just something that stands out. 1:30:40 JB: What? Read that again? 1:30:47 SM: Yeah. What were the lessons that we as a nation or individually could be, what did we will learn from the (19)60s and (19)70s? It could be learned, mistakes made or things that we did, right. What, you know, when we discussed this two, these two decades, what were some of the lessons we learned? 1:31:14 JB: Well, I think that I do not know if we learned them. But I think that the lesson was in, one of the big lessons was in it now not becoming involved in political, you know, I think we are coming away from, you know, anti-communism. I mean we have to protect the United States. But, you know, I think that, you know, going after the economics of other countries, you know, and having big business, you know, driv- you know, driving the boat, you know. That, that is not that is not the way to go, and I do not think that we have learned it, I think that we became aware of it. You know, and I think that we-we developed an awareness- the North East did, and probably California- we began, we developed an awareness of the, of the plight of the Black person. You know, we did not, well, you know, I was young, so I do not, you know, I cannot say, Well, you know, for five whole years, I did not realize that, you know what I mean so. But, but, you know, I get a kick out of talking to young kids these, you know now they go, "Oh, man, I have always been this way." I go, "Wait a second you are, you are 12." Always is not a very long time. But- 1:32:57 SM: What? 1:32:58 JB: -and I, you know, I think that I think that social programs, you know, the successes of Franklin Roosevelt, you know, was-was, [inaudible], you know, it was being internalized by a new generation of people that, you know, said, "Wow," you know, "That never was before," you know. These-these work programs and in Social Security, and you do not let the old people just wither on the vine, you know, well, actually we do. But, you know, in Medicare and Medicaid, those are great things. 1:33:39 SM: Yes. 1:33:39 JB: You know, I think Obamacare is a great thing, except it did not take it far enough. 1:33:44 SM: What was the what was the watershed event of the (19)60s and the (19)70s, in your view? 1:33:53 JB: Our watershed, Woodstock. Woodstock, the assassination of the Kennedys. And Martin Luther King, you know like, who is behind that? 1:34:10 SM: Do you believe in conspiracy theories? 1:34:13 JB: Yeah, I do. 1:34:16 SM: Yeah, and because, you know, we can reflect on it right now that we are still talking about that was more than Lee Harvey Oswald that shot John Kennedy. The-the, the Martin Luther King assassination that it was more than the one guy across the it, next to the motel, you know, it had to be more than just him. And of course, we know about Bobby, that things that happened in the, with Sirhan Sirhan. You know, if people have said that the gun that he was using, the bullets, none of them could have gotten to the bullets that hit the back of his head. It was, it was almost like anybody who was going to change the status quo in our society who were doing it in a very good way, humanistic way, we got to take them out because they were a threat. 1:35:08 JB: Yeah, right. 1:35:10 SM: I do not know, you know, to me that they dedicated their lives to others, and they dedicated it was not about them. It was about others. And because some group or entity or pride, who knows, they had to get rid of them. So, you do believe in conspiracy? 1:35:31 JB: Yeah, I just I just cannot wrap my head around who did it. You know, I mean, they go the mafia was mad at Bobby Kennedy. Alright, you know, what, were so they going to kill the guy running for president? You know, for me, that is a big, you know, it is a big thing to do, just because you do not like somebody, you know. But, you know, the crazy racists you know, they, they can do crazy things, because they do not like people. So that is one thing, but I do not know. I do not know. I always look at the economics of it. You know, it is like, well, who, who financially benefits? You know, I mean, it could have been like, you know, Pan Am was trying to get into Air Lingus, you know, "Let us shoot that guy." 1:36:23 SM: Yeah, it is, who knows. And one of the things about the (19)60s too, is that there were a lot of slogans that came out of the (19)60s that were kind of used every day. And there is three that I want to quote here, and I do not know if you have any more, but one of them was from Malcolm X, "By any means necessary," remember he used that, that was Malcolm and the people are still using that today. Timothy Leary time, "Tune in, turn on, drop out." And then Jerry Rubin, "Do not trust anyone under, or over 30." And he was 29 when he said it [laughs]. Are there any slogans that you remember, you were around campaigns, I know that, "We like Ike" was the one in the (19)50s but, any slogans that come to your mind that politically or that your dad was-? 1:37:20 JB: Mmm, I do not know. 1:37:24 SM: You do not have to know [inaudible] say but the slogans- 1:37:28 JB: Yeah. 1:37:28 SM: -did come out the period, like the ones I mentioned. Do you still see the- 1:37:31 JB: Yeah. 1:37:32 SM: -the divisions that we saw in the (19)60s that are kind of still linked today in our society, particularly the culture wars that are going on? 1:37:43 JB: Yeah, really. You know, I, when, when, when George Bush was elected, I was of the theory, you know, I said, well, first of all, he was going to go in there, his job, the I thought he had only last four years. His job was to go in and dismantle everything that the Democrats have done. And, and just, you know, set the stage for, you know, just, you know, so everybody's got to do it all over again, or whatever. And then I had the opinion that, that these are the last desperate efforts of a dying political party, a dying belief. It is like a chicken with its head chopped off, you know, it will just go crazy. And they are doing all this stuff, but [inaudible], you know, their legs are kicking in they are dying. And-and I thought that is what it was. But now, I am starting to feel like, there is a worldwide effort that there is a, a, you know, an organized belief that it is not over, that they are going to re-install these right-wing backward thinking things, you know, I thought, you know, we were, I had thought that we were at the end, and that no matter what they do, or what they try to do, we were going to have a new way and a new world. And I like to think that that is still going to be true but I do not know. You know, I mean, the only because like all these guys, I know. You know, I am going out to California next week, and I am going to visit a friend of mine who, you know, he thinks that Obama was this, you know, this horrible thing. And now these are these anti Obama guys. They were the real scary ones. They are like, oh, [inaudible] so anti-Obama, you know like, "Wow, man, he has really ruined this country." It is like, in what way? What are you talking about? 1:39:55 SM: Yeah. 1:39:55 JB: You know, but they, they believe that. 1:39:59 SM: Yeah. 1:40:00 JB: If you hang around with them once in a while, and you start getting an understanding, an understanding of what they believe, that is a scary thing. They really believe- 1:40:09 SM: Well there is something you know, I have talked to, I am not- my role here as an interviewer is not to make judgment. But the thing, the thing is I have spoken to people who, you know, Donald Trump will eventually be out of office, but the people that that voted for him, will be still with us. And that– 1:40:28 JB: Yeah. 1:40:28 SM: -and if that is half of America well, where are we heading? So, I, you know, it really concerns me. When you look at the boomer generation, and young people like yourself and me when we were young, the post-World War Two, what were the qualities that you admired in that young generation and the ones you least admired? I asked this question to your dad. [laughs] 1:40:58 JB: Back then, like, what do I least admire about my generation back then? 1:41:03 SM: Yes, then and now. 1:41:08 JB: Well, I admired the idealism, you know, that we could have a better world and, you know, I admired you know, the-the belief that, you know, people were going to coexist peacefully, Blacks and whites, people help other, you know, nationalities and stuff and, you know, kind of a pride, you know, how we carried ourselves through history as a place where people can come and make a light that, you know, as long as they are contributors. You know, and now I do not know. What I do not like, is I do not like racist beliefs and, you know, right wing, you know, "Let them help themselves, they get to lift themselves up." You know, I do not believe that, you know, and I think that I do not, I do not like the line, the political line about, you know, okay, well, you know, your health insurance is going to be good, or your life is going to be okay. It is not going to be okay. It is going to be really bad. And you know what, I know. We are just getting towards the end of the first season. I am rewatching. All of the seasons of West Wing, what a great TV show. 1:42:50 SM: Yeah it is, it is a great TV show. 1:42:53 JB: It was, my brother Patrick thinks it is the best, you know, TV show ever made. He is in a lot of my brothers are all in the movies [inaudible]. 1:43:04 SM: Yeah, where what where are your brothers and sisters doing now? I know that your older sisters are, well there is three of them are singers, I believe. 1:43:14 JB: Yeah. 1:43:14 SM: And they live in Ithaca. And they are the Burns singers. And I remember talking to your dad about that. But what are what are the what, what is everybody doing in the family? 1:43:25 JB: Well, Bobby is, Bobby is in his mid-70s. I think he might be retired, but he is a social worker in Cleveland. And then there is my, the next is Patrick. He just retired, was the co-producer of the TV show Always Sunny in Philadelphia, from its origin. 1:43:47 SM: Oh, wow. 1:43:48 JB: And next is Sheila. She is a retired teacher in Ithaca, and at one time sang with the other girls. 1:43:59 SM: Right. 1:44:00 JB: Let us see, then me and I am a real estate broker in Binghamton. And my brother Joe is running for city council the, there is the fifth district. He is the next one under me. And he is retired from the movie industry. And he, he worked for Robert Redford on you know, A River Runs Through It. Scorsese and Robert DeNiro and many movies [inaudible], things like that. 1:44:33 SM: Wow. 1:44:34 JB: You know, he was system director under Oliver Stone and the JFK movie and a lot of different things and then Tommy, Tommy just, he did like 10 years as the co-producer of ER. And he just got done with Nashville and then I think he is in. I think he is in, well, he lives in LA, but he is shooting a funny show in Toronto with Leary what is his name, that funny guy. 1:45:19 SM: Oh, um. 1:45:22 JB: Kind of a sarcastic fast-talking New York guy. 1:45:25 SM: Yeah, I know who he is. I cannot remember the name. 1:45:27 JB: Yeah, you know what I mean. 1:45:28 SM: Yeah. 1:45:28 JB: And then that is Tommy. Then Marie Jean- Marie and Anne sing, are the Burns Sisters at the moment. And, and then you know Marie is in Ireland a lot of time. And they go out tour like next month, they will they will tour Ireland. They go every year. 1:45:49 SM: Wow. 1:45:49 JB: And they sing all over the place. And then Genie is in Ithaca half the time, and the other half in Texas. She is a singer, songwriter, and a [inaudible]. Danny as a coffee shop up in, in Maine and in Ithaca. And has a couple, he has a son who is like a prodigy violinist and stuff. And let us see Danny, and then Vincent, who is kind of like freelance traveling man with his wife and they travel around the country in a, you know, a car and a camper. And Vincent and then Terry is a singer songwriter and her husband is a produces television commercials and things like that Nashville, but they live in Ithaca. They have a band. They play all over too. And that is it, that is all 12. 1:47:03 SM: Now do you think of your mom and dad a lot? 1:47:07 JB: Oh, yeah. Yep. 1:47:08 SM: Yep. I have lost my mom and dad. But you know, when you lose your mom and dad, you seem like they seem like they are even closer than they ever were after they have gone. 1:47:16 JB: Yeah. 1:47:16 SM: I mean, it is every day. I never had the opportunity to ask my mom and dad, did they ever think of their mom and dad and that was I, I wish- did you ever ask your dad if he ever thought of his dad? 1:47:30 JB: He did not really, his father died when he was like 11 or 12 or something like that. 1:47:37 SM: Right. 1:47:38 JB: And his mother was the stenographer for the court, for the city court for I do not know, forty years or something. She was, she was quite a person. And then you know, she was like, lectured the judge, "You may only be too harsh on people." But she, but my dad is funny [inaudible] one day he told me when he was getting older, you know. And I said something to him. I cannot remember what it was, something about aging or something. And he goes, "Johnny" he says, "I do not," he says, "I feel like I you know, I look old. And I am old." He says, "But I feel exactly like I did when I was 22." 1:48:26 SM: Wow, that is amazing. That is, that is my thought. 1:48:31 JB: Yeah, me too. 1:48:32 SM: I you know, 1:48:33 JB: I do not see any difference. 1:48:34 SM: No, I- 1:48:35 JB: That time does not exist. 1:48:37 SM: Yeah. Wow. That, you know, now I know why I really got along with your dad I had that, we had about an hour with each other. And he was having a, he was sitting in that big chair in his apartment. And he said his back was hurt a little bit. And I remember your mother was in the other room very busy. And in this is a little anecdote here. When my mom was in the hospital, I am not sure if it was Lourdes or I do not know which hospital was but her roommate was your mom. 1:49:08 JB: Oh. [laughter] 1:49:10 SM: They share, they shared the same room. And so, this is a small world here. Now I have three final. 1:49:16 JB: Oh, that is funny. 1:49:17 SM: I have three final questions. The boomer generation always had this feeling when they especially when they are young that they are the most unique generation in American history, that they were going to change the world for the better and they really felt that, I mean it was across the board. Do you think they were the most unique generation in American history? Reflecting, you can reflect on you know, over time we can some people say no way. 1:49:47 JB: About our parents’ generation? 1:49:49 SM: No, our generation, the boomers. 1:49:51 JB: Oh, I think so far. I think so far because we were the, we were the breakaway generation. You know, but we were the breakaway teenagers and young adults, you know, like a lot of these guys sold their bell bottoms and got, you know, buzz cuts. 1:50:15 SM: Right. 1:50:16 JB: You know what I mean, they sold out. I guess I did, too. I mean, I am a real estate guy. [laughs] 1:50:23 SM: Well, one of the one of the things that the critics of the boomer generation is remember, folks, there were 74 million of them and only 7 percent or under ever got involved in any kind of activism. It is a way you know, it is a, and I say, and my response to that is, "Wow, that is a lot of people." If you are talking about 7 percent, of 74 million, so there is so there is then the next the last question is, I really, I just interviewed Bobby Muller. And Bobby said that he feels the lasting legacy of the (19)60s in many respects, especially amongst the boomer generation itself, is that they, they really do not trust anybody in positions of leadership anymore. Because of the lies that they have been, and now we are seeing lives today in, you know, Washington. That trust that trust is, if there is you know it is, Bobby said to me, he says, " Steve the-the Vietnam War is a long time ago, it is good that you are making sure the history of it is known. But in the end, it is the factor of trust that young people have in young- in people in positions of power," whether that be the like the mayor, like your dad, a mayor or a principal in a high school, or head of a corporation or a minister in a church. I mean, the there was this feeling that all leaders are bad, because they have been lied to, your thoughts if that is really still prevalent in America? 1:51:57 JB: Well, yeah, I think it is really prevalent in America now. And I think what was really disappointing, you know, as, you know, as we are looking at results of the, you know, of our generation is that reform really did not get any traction. We did not reform campaign finance. And that same shit is going to keep the world exactly the same as it was, nothing is, you know, what, there is an old saying, in AA, that says, "If nothing changes, then nothing changes." You know, and that is the way it is, you know, it is a, you know, we are still going to get, you know, the big corporations and really wealthy people, and that has become more prevalent now that, the real wealthy. Now we have, you know, we have billionaires running for office, because they are the only ones they can afford to do it, you know. 1:52:58 SM: Right. 1:52:59 JB: And, and so they are either selling out or they got an agenda that we do not want or, you know, or that we have to rely on a, you know, a benefactor, you know, a rich benefactor to save us, and it is not democracy that is doing it. It is big money, and then we just cross our fingers that, you know, he is, he is really a good person. 1:53:25 SM: Right. 1:53:26 JB: You know like the mayor in New York, there what is his-? 1:53:28 SM: De Blasio. 1:53:29 JB: He wants to be president. 1:53:30 SM: De Blasio. 1:53:31 JB: No, not him. The other guy, the Republican. He used to be a Democrat, the Jewish guy. 1:53:39 SM: I am not even sure. 1:53:42 JB: Oh, he is a billionaire. [inaudible] 1:53:46 SM: Oh, yeah, I know. Yeah. Oh, my goodness, man. I cannot. 1:53:52 JB: Cannot think of his freaking name. 1:53:53 SM: Yeah, we are both the same boat. 1:53:57 JB: This is not a good sign [laughter]. 1:53:59 SM: No, that is not a good sign and we are supposed to be young. [laughter] He has got his own under radio show, a TV network and everything else. 1:54:11 JB: Yeah, begins with W. H and W. WH, uh. 1:54:19 SM: Yeah. [inaudible] think it is Broad Berger or something Berger. 1:54:23 JB: Oh, yeah-yeah, yeah-yeah, yeah-yeah, yeah. Something Burg- uh Bromberg. 1:54:29 SM: Bromberg yes. 1:54:31 JB: Is it? 1:54:32 SM: I do not know, all I know is- 1:54:34 JB: How about David Bromberg? 1:54:35 SM: I am not sure, well that he was an entertainer, was not he? 1:54:39 JB: Oh, yeah. He is unbelievable. 1:54:40 SM: Yeah, yeah. Yep. My last question is this, and this is, I have not talked about Vietnam that much but- on this particular one- but the Vietnam memorial was built and opened in (19)82. And of course, you know, we know how Vietnam veterans are treated when they came back from the war, they were treated very poorly. 1:54:41 JB: Still around. Yeah. x1:55:00 SM: And I mean, terrible. And of course, the wall's been, you know, there since (19)82. And it was the first time they ever came together. And the goal of the wall was to, you know, to really pay remembrance to those who served and died in the war and to help with the healing of the families and- 1:55:20 JB: Yeah. 1:55:20 SM: -lost loved ones in the whole works. The key question that Jan Scruggs used to sing when he wrote his first book, The Healing of a Nation was the book that he wrote. And I know Jan quite well, and I have interviewed him quite a few times. Do you think that there is still the issue of healing from this war? And we are hearing that Bobby says we are the war is a long time ago now, we got issues with China. He started going into detail, it is just forget Vietnam. I mean, I was very involved in it for a long time, and I care about veterans. But time has moved on, and there are other issues. And do you think that we as a nation have healed from that war be the division- 1:56:05 JB: Vietnam? 1:56:06 SM: Yeah, from Vietnam, the divisions that were happening then and the divisions that like, still continue today, whether it be in the cultural war, those who were for or against the war, those who served those who did not serve. I know, it is a long time ago now, I hate to say it is over 50 years. But just your thoughts on when he wrote the book, To Heal a Nation, you know, it is, have we healed the nation? 1:56:33 JB: Well, I do not you know, my personal feelings about it is that that I think that some things have gotten worse, like, like, you know, we did not like the military. And then and the guys that went in, you know, we were not empathetic for you know, but you know, a lot of our cousins and brothers and people, you know, they, they are, you know, they are good guys, and they were there and that is it, you know. But, but the, the all this, I hate all this, you know, oh the Marines "Oh, my God, everybody stand up," there is guys walking through right now that are helping Exxon make fucking money. You know, it is like, you know, they think these poor souls that are in the service, think that they are defending the United States, and they are not. They are helping, they are the oils company sponsors you know, secures them. Have you ever, have you ever heard of the, in Afghanistan has one of the largest deposits of these special metals, you see, you know, they are, they are very hard to find. And they are very expensive. And they are in communication phones and things like that, that the biggest locations of it in the world or in Afghanistan, you know, it is not a coincidence that. Like, we do not give a shit, what happens to the women in Iraq, and Iran and Saudi Arabia, we do not we do not care about them. But we are very empathetic to the Afghanistan women and how they are treated. You know, what is that about? You know, it is about money. Like they want something that is in the ground in Afghanistan, I believe that. You know, remember when, there is a great book. I have not read the whole thing, because it is like a huge and my attention span, I still have to make money too. But it is called The Prize. And it is about the dawn of oil into everything, you know, when they first started using it, and then they realized it could be a fuel. I mean, how they were drinking this stuff. You know, they did not know what to do with it. They knew it was good, though. So anyway, once oil came onto the scene, you know, like, they talked a little bit about how what is his name in the- Winston Churchill. Bloomberg is the guy. 1:59:36 SM: Bloomberg, yes. 1:59:37 JB: [inaudible] but they-they have they have him having to make a decision right around the end of World War One, beginning of World War Two or somewhere in there, where he had to make a decision, "Am I going to dump- am I going to stick with steam and coal to keep my navy going, or am I going to oil?" And you know, that is what everybody was doing. They were all deciding what they were doing. But I remember being a little kid, and watching World War Two movies, the Germans and the Americans and all this stuff. And I would always ask myself, what the hell -are they, Germany's Germany. You know, it is like, why are they in the desert? What are they doing fighting in the desert? You know, why are they there? They were there, because that was where the oil was. 1:59:37 SM: Yep. 1:59:45 JB: You know. And if you look at, you know, if you look at, you know, that, that if you just focused on just that, like, okay, well, what happened, and, and what was the result, and where was the oil and everything. It makes a lot more sense than, okay, we are going to go down there and kick their butt. And then but anyway. 2:01:03 SM: Well, I am basically done. But are there any final thoughts or any observations or things that you might want to say that I did not ask? 2:01:13 JB: You know, I mean, I was lucky, you know, like I was, although we were not wealthy, I was privileged, because of the position my father rose to, you know, and, and there are so many people in the world that are not lucky. You know, and, and for some reason, you know, you think about the education that we all got, and, you know, we are part of a certain type of people. You know, it is not necessarily like what I learned in college, or what, my brothers were, you know, at the top of their industry, in production of movies and television programs. You know, like, I am a top producing guy, I have had a TV show for 20 years. You know, I, you know, I am creative, I make money. My sisters are singers, and, you know, like, everybody has had a level of success in not necessarily real common areas, but-but, you know, we did not choose to, you know, work in a factory or to, you know, work for a large corporation or anything 2:02:34 SM: Right. 2:02:34 JB: And all, you know, we are all kind of independent people. I do not know what all that means. But I do know that, you know, I am, I am, I am kind of lucky that way, you know, in my dad did not really make any money and did not end up with any real money or anything like that. But-but, you know, he had an exciting, interesting life. 2:02:59 SM: Yeah, well, you know- 2:03:00 JB: I see a lot of that. 2:03:01 SM: I am, well, I think your dad is, is one of the good guys. And I was a student at Binghamton at the time. And I always admired him from afar. And, and I know, he is probably very proud of all of his kids, and what you have done in your lives. And I think what it says it all at the very is what we you, you and I both said that we think about our parents every day, and even though they are gone, and you have got our own families and kids and all this and so forth. But obviously, they played- 2:03:34 JB: Did you ever know Kete Dover? They used to live out on Pennsylvania Avenue, there is another guy, they were like hippies they lived there was like a commune there. Exactly. Out on Upper Penn Ave. 2:03:37 SM: No-no. 2:03:44 JB: Hawleyton Road. 2:03:51 SM: I did not. 2:03:54 JB: Yeah, those guys are all still around. 2:03:56 SM: [laughs] They still got a commune? 2:03:59 JB: No, no. 2:04:00 SM: Okay. I know there is. [inaudible] Yeah, there is still that farm, the farm down in Tennessee, that still exists. So 2:04:09 JB: Yeah. 2:04:09 SM: Well I want to thank you for the for doing this and being interviewed and I am going to before I am going to just turn the tape machine off here. Thank you very much, John Burns. 2:04:20 JB: Okay. Thank you very much and- 2:04:23 SM: Let me turn this- 2:04:23 JB: -reach out some time. 2:04:23 SM: Let me turn this. Yeah, let me let me turn this- (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Burns Jr. https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/806a8d94bf70b1aa5c6e0332c2bc128b.jpg fb610948dfc67c2ec5df18b5bc704a76 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/adca86a45ac2ee8abf75aafe8b50b120.mp3 96a2555f15debbf44be5513533ad128d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Daniel Berrigan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 52:31 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Date of Interview ND Biographical Text Daniel Berrigan (May 9, 1921 – April 30, 2016), born in Virginia, Minnesota, was a poet, Jesuit priest, and peace activist .He received his Bachelor's degree from the St. Andrew-on-Hudson and his Master's degree from Woodstock College. Father Berrigan publicly protested U.S. policy in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War. His defiant protests helped shape the tactics of opposition to the Vietnam War and caused his arrest in 1968. Berrigan wrote numerous volumes of poetry, including Time Without Number, which won the Lamont Poetry Prize; Prison Poems; Tulips in the Prison Yard: Selected Poems of Daniel Berrigan; and And the Risen Bread: Selected and New Poems 1957–1997. He died in the Bronx at the age of 94. Keywords 1960s; Vietnam; Vietnam War; Protests; Anti-war movement; Students; Activism; University of Virginia; Nixon; Boomers. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daniel Berrigan https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8970244ceff5c67af8982e4508e9de32.jpg a567404766718819f4ae581e25790925 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bf7aa9efca47d690bb47e9e02aa70609.mp3 f8f5b07883c9226c6090a7d6a4af0ab9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed James Humes Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:49:12 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text James Humes (1934 - 2020) was an author, lawyer, profesor, politician, and former presidential speechwriter. Humes earned his Bachelor's degree from Williams College and his Law degree from George Washington University. He was elected as a Republican to the Pennsylvania House of Representatives in 1962 and served as a speechwriter for Presidents Dwight Eisenhower, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford and Ronald Reagan. Humes, a professor of Language and Leadership at the University of Southern Colorado,&nbsp; was the author of numerous books, including Nixon's Ten Commandments of Leadership and Negotiation, Confessions of a White House Ghostwriter, and The Wit and Wisdom of Winston Churchill. Keywords 1960s; Anti-war protest; Richard Nixon; Class of people; War; Student protests; Vietnam; Vietnam War; Media; Protests; Generational gap; Baby Boomers. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource James Humes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/46e2f9fc88d1f095400e2dd06cf7a51b.jpg aa896b499cd2beeff2d8ef1eae265966 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/461d2546ac495f5d907d73b3d63c4bff.mp3 55744c07e6a98e87fbce9eb41d7fe7c6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview October 2011 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jeff Gibbs Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:09:19 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Jeff Gibbs, born in Flint, Michigan, is a filmmaker, composer, scorer, film producer, and director. Gibbs has lived in Michigan all his life. He worked with Michael Moore on Bowling for Columbine, and Fahrenheit 9/11. Gibbs released his own film, Planet of The Humans with the executive producer, Michael Moore in 2020. Gibbs' full length documentary is about the environmental movement’s battle against climate change and how some favored solutions come with their own set of problems. Keywords 1960s; Cold War; Boomers; John F. Kennedy; Vietnam War; Anti-war movement; Protests; Ronald Reagan; Michael Moore; School shooting. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Jeff Gibbs Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: October 2011 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:00): Testing 123. There you go. JG (00:00:05): You are in near Philly? SM (00:00:05): Pardon? JG (00:00:12): Where are you right now? Near Philly? SM (00:00:14): Yeah, Westchester, Pennsylvania. JG (00:00:17): Yeah. SM (00:00:17): Is where I live. Just a couple more questions and I will get right to the point of how you became a documentary person. JG (00:00:30): Okay. SM (00:00:30): One question I wanted to ask is, and actually this is just, these are major events from the period of the (19)60s, (19)70s and maybe the (19)80s too. This is just quick responses to when you hear these terms what is your first reaction. When you think of these events during the past 65 years what did they mean to you and possibly to your generation? And it does not have to be long, it is just real fast. The first one is the atomic bomb. JG (00:01:04): Just by radiation. SM (00:01:08): The Cold War. JG (00:01:11): Headache. SM (00:01:13): The election of Kennedy, 1960. JG (00:01:22): I... Oh. SM (00:01:29): Okay. JG (00:01:31): Confusion. My mother was a Republican, but I convinced she was Kennedy was a nice guy. I was little. SM (00:01:42): How about the assassination of JFK? JG (00:01:48): Heart-wrenching. What you mean? Just one word? SM (00:01:51): Give you heart-wrenching or just what do you think it meant to you plus the nation? JG (00:02:01): Loss of innocence, I think. It was like watching a funeral on television, but it was also a collective sense of we were out together too. SM (00:02:12): The Cuban Missile Crisis, I think you have already talked about that a little bit. JG (00:02:21): Yeah, just, sorry it was like the moment when you realized it could all actually end. SM (00:02:29): The rise of Barry Goldwater, which actually is the beginning of the conservative movement, really. JG (00:02:47): Barry Goldwater. That would be a nightmare. SM (00:02:54): Gulf of Tonkin, 1964. JG (00:03:03): See some of these things I only remember in retrospect because I was not that old, but there was a movie made about it. I remember watching that and think it was just very painful to think to such a small event supposedly led to all that. SM (00:03:27): Right. Led to 58,200 plus American dead. God knows, close to 2 million wounded, and the 3 million Vietnamese killed. The Vietnam War itself. JG (00:03:53): Apocalypse. Now, can I answer just in a sentence, what you had said earlier that I did not answer? SM (00:04:03): Yes. JG (00:04:04): Without interrupting you, is that the reason I do not really have an answer is could we have won or lost. We attack small nations as a great empire. We attacked them. It is not a war, called evil, and so how do we win? Do not win that. You win when somebody attacks you, so there is never a chance we could win because we were just decimating people that did not deserve it. SM (00:04:37): The year 1968, everything that took place that year. JG (00:04:44): Duck and too young to... And that is not an excuse, that is just I remember sitting there (19)68, (19)69 thinking stuff is happening that I cannot go. Too young. SM (00:05:03): 1970 Kent State and Jackson State. JG (00:05:06): Maybe jealous is the word. Some ways were a couple years older. They got the food for $5. I got the food for 50. Go ahead. What were you saying? SM (00:05:17): Kent State and Jackson State, 1970, May 4th. JG (00:05:33): Soldiers are gunning us down. SM (00:05:38): And then I just had a general one here called The Beatles coming to the United States in 1964. JG (00:05:52): Realizing I did not understand girls. Girl about them and I was like, "Okay, well they are all right." SM (00:05:59): Well, they were screaming for The Beatles. JG (00:06:03): Well, at that time, the music was not as what it is. SM (00:06:09): Right. Now, you were only one year old or three years old when I had this next one, but Sputnik in 1957, along with Elvis Presley in (19)57. Now obviously you would know what they were all about. JG (00:06:19): No, I remember that. See, I was an assigned [inaudible] from the day I was marked, I remember Sputnik. I remember all that getting going. I think it was, I usually all the stereotypical words, but it is true for a reason. It is just wonder. SM (00:06:44): I think personally, it played a role in the rise of higher education, and that was already rising from the GI Bill. JG (00:06:55): It was in a science fiction, but here is the dilemma. It is that the very, I have been thinking about this a lot. When you were a Roman citizen in Rome before the fall, you would be saying we have democracy at first, we have roads. We have sanitation, we have dust, we have fresh water. We have heated rooms. Charcoal was brought in from a deforested area to heat the rooms, heat the bath. We have culture, statues, theater, spectacle. Rome is a very good thing. How could anybody want Rome to fall? And so in Rome you were not aware of all the things that an empire amassed, and so for me is that we want to think of the empire being the corporation or push or breaking, but it is all of us. It is all of us together. Liberal offense. We make the system. It was actually help us out to compete with Soviets, right? SM (00:08:12): Yes. JG (00:08:13): They have an environmental movement so they fucked it up. They did not have the discourse that we have had, so they were less effective. Anyways, I do not know how that, but- SM (00:08:27): Earth Day 1970. Now obviously it has been celebrated every year since, but if you compare Earth Day 1970 and Earth Day 2010, we are talking 30, well 70. We are almost talking 41, 40 years. What is the difference? JG (00:08:49): Take care of them. I was at Earth Day 2010, and I would say Thursday 1970s was soulful. At least 2000. SM (00:09:10): What about in 2010, it is less soulful? Still there? JG (00:09:20): Yep. SM (00:09:21): Okay. JG (00:09:21): That was a scam. SM (00:09:28): Okay, the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980? JG (00:09:32): You had is, what is his name? The Avatar director was in... James Cameron is a baby Boomer, right? SM (00:09:43): Yes. JG (00:09:44): He made the movie Avatar we are supposed to care about the trees and the blue native people? SM (00:09:48): Mm-hmm. JG (00:09:49): So yes, Earth Day 2010 was dominated by NASA and they were passing out tree seedlings. Passing out tree seedlings is what the company that chopped down all the forests of the world do to make it okay the damage that they did in destroying the planet. James Cameron sponsored the exhibit where they were passing out little tiny baby tree stumps. I cannot think of anything more symbolic of the sellout of the environmental movement than instead of somebody trying to save the forest, here they are passing out the seedlings to the sugar companies want you to pretend to plant, replace forest. SM (00:10:30): To replenish and of course, we all know how important the trees are for breathing every day air. JG (00:10:38): Maybe you are aware of this, when you cut down a forest, the forest you cut down never returns and planting seedlings, whatever comes up has nothing to do with the forest that was there before. It is like raising the prairie and finding corn and saying, "Hey look, something's growing." Well, it is not what was there before. Let us see, sorry. SM (00:11:03): The election of Ronald Reagan. JG (00:11:11): All right, you may hit the election of Ronald Reagan? SM (00:11:15): Mm-hmm. JG (00:11:18): We got the daddy we wanted. SM (00:11:19): You got the what? JG (00:11:24): The Reagan was the first new age president. SM (00:11:31): That is not really good. JG (00:11:34): No, that is terrible. You think about the confluence of these things is right in Reagan because, and instead of Carter's message of use last put on a sweater and turned down the heat, sorry to change his minds. If they, all right, never mind. We were going to send our army's resourceful. Reagan gave us the first new age lingo, "We are a shin city on a hill. It is morning in America." He was a new age president. SM (00:12:10): He kept saying, "We are back. We are back." JG (00:12:14): We are back and secretly we love hearing that. Now we did not like what he did in terms of El Salvador and politically and keep the empire going, but see that is how it always works, is that Cartalita does not like what Tony Soprano does. She is not going to give up the house and the nice things. Carmella, and that is who we are, we are Carmella. SM (00:12:44): He supposedly was one of the main reasons that the wall went down. Actually some people think it should have been Gorbachev. The last two of the Gulf War and 9/11, and I think actually in Watergate. Watergate was crucial too. JG (00:13:09): The Gulf War. That is when I was ashamed of myself because I too enjoyed watching King after that war and I realized how insidious the joy of empire was. I was enthralled by the senior recovery and it should have been the same. SM (00:13:30): And how about 9/11? 10th anniversary coming up. JG (00:13:34): Yeah, it is coming up. Missed opportunity. I understand why we are headed. SM (00:13:42): And then the other one is Watergate. JG (00:13:48): My political education watched it on TV. SM (00:13:53): And you already talked about Woodstock and Summer of Love. My last question before I get into really stuff about you, some more stuff on your career is, and I want to mention this too, because I asked you why we lost the war in Vietnam, but how important do you feel these groups were in ending the war? I am just going to read them off and I think they all played a role, but if there is one that you think stands out. College students, Vietnam veterans against the war, the failure of our military to go all out, bad military leadership, weak leadership in Vietnam, including the inability to, you get the ARVN, which is the South Vietnamese army to really do what we did. Congress ended all the funding and then the Paris Peace Courts and the ineptitude of our leaders, including Johnson and the misinformation that was given to him by McNamara and McGeorge Bundy and others. They all played a role here. Is there anyone that you feel played the biggest role? JG (00:15:02): Ending the war, you mean or up top winning it or? SM (00:15:05): Oh, in the poly groups for ending the war? JG (00:15:15): No, I do not think any of those did. I think the Vietnamese, north Vietnamese won. I think they defended, successfully defended their homeland. I am not sure what winning would have looked like. We won against the Native Americans, right? SM (00:15:32): Yes, we did. JG (00:15:32): Because we killed them all. Between killing and disease, they went down to 300,000. What does it mean for the whole paradigm? I do not know how we could possibly have we won Iraq. I do not think we have won. Have we won in Afghanistan? I do not think it is... We have the wrong paradigm. SM (00:15:53): I would agree. Yes. JG (00:15:55): And we are the aggressor and these guys are not going to beat us because they were willing to die for the last person does not have a- SM (00:16:05): Do you feel that one of the problems we have as a nation is the fact that the Boomer generation of 70 million may be going to their graves like the Civil War generation, not truly healing from the tremendous divisions of divided America during the time they were young and growing up into adulthood. I would talk about the war between Black and white, male and female, gay and straight, the environmental battles and certainly the war in Vietnam. Those who support the war, against it, those who served, those who did not. Do you think we as a nation, Jan Scruggs wrote to book the Vietnam, be it Vietnam War founder and it was called To Heal a Nation. It was geared toward healing the vets and their families and being non-political, but in a sense he hoped it helped a little bit with the healing of the nation too, from the tremendous divisions of those times. Do you feel that we as a nation and as a generation have a problem with the issue of healing? JG (00:17:11): No, I think we have a problem with the issue of narcissism. The opposite. Who are we to feel sorry for ourselves? Now I knew a World War II aged guy that had escaped. He and his family were taken to the concentration camp and he hid in a bus and was able to sneak out. It is weird the stories you hear, and he snuck back in because he was starving to death outside the concentration camp. He came here and opened up the laundromat, experiment with the disco laundromat and was a very nice guy. That guy has a right to ask the question to be healed from his problems. We have experienced more wealth and abundance privilege than other any ever, ever, ever and that is going away, and we have used it all up. Our responsibility is to stop feeling sorry for ourselves and before we die, to get back to our original values, which were the right ones, which is the military and industrial complex, expanding human population and pollution are means that the human race is soon going to go away because it is over, and we have pretty much blown the opportunity. Now in fairness, nobody else has done it either and in fairness, the very education that we had and the wealth that we had gave us the opportunity as 15-year-old and 25-year-old in the (19)60s to see the truth of what Eisenhower said. We knew that, but we too succumbed to this deduction of the abundance, but we have used the lie that we are sensitive, that we care about the planet. The generation, I cannot tell you the people we are talking about. We are the people that have been in the upper one 10th of 1 percent of humans in terms of our impact on the planet. Our tomatoes come in from Mexico and Israel, our lettuce comes from around the world. Our organic grains for our vegans come from peasants everywhere. Our shoes, our Nike shoes come from slave labor, oil that we fly around the world on to go see the Africans to give them arms comes from Africans that are dying in Black resources because our empire and empires around the world, America, Europe, Japan, Australia, take those resources to ourselves from those people through Shell oil and BP, fly to visit them, their environment decimated by the climate change we caused by burning the fossil fuels and we run around there thinking, "Oh, is not it nice the Black people are kissing our feet or we are building this school for them?" We are the most spoiled generation that is ever been and we have hid behind having good value system just like Christians do, do very narcissistic things. We have a chance, we still have a chance to change that. The only wounds that we have to heal are guilt over using more resources. We have used more resources than will be available for all generations at the human's future. SM (00:20:53): Wow. That is one of the best responses I have ever had to that question. JG (00:20:58): Well, I have been thinking about this for 10 years and including sitting there having worked on Fahrenheit and the boss was beaten up and having everybody cry for Clinton. I am like, "Why are you crying for Clinton? He opened up free trade to China. He signed the globalization stuff. All this stuff is happening now with the environment being decimated faster and free trade destroying peoples around the world. Clinton brought that in." You do not intend to play the weakest in New York, in Philadelphia and Traverse City and you have a nice party, pretend our wealth came from the magical place. Did not have to do with that. I will shut up, but that is just, I sat there and I am like, "Bush is evil, but you guys we are not getting the evil that is what we are doing as an empire." SM (00:21:50): As we are celebrating Dr. King's the opening of his memorial in Washington this week, 28th, and actually people are down there now for activities all week. He believed in the non-violent protest way and he also believed in paying a price for one's beliefs and he also agrees with you and you brought it up before about the willing to stand up and protest, be arrested and so forth for causes you feel that are unjust. Then we had this period in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s where in the anti-war movement or some of the other movements, they became much more confrontational and more violent. Not necessarily trying to kill people, but more violent, whether it be the weatherman, the weather underground. Some people question whether the Black Panthers were violent. I do not think. Some say they were not. And then even at the American Indian movement in (19)73 there was violence there. There was a lot of reasons for this, but there seemed to be a sense of frustration then because things were not happening or they were not being listened to, and for African Americans, Black Panthers was about, well, the only people that are going to protect us are ourselves. What was your thought of that whole change in philosophy from non-violent protests to more violent aspects? JG (00:23:16): I think we have a systemic problem as the country is that we are too big and geographically too big, and so in Egypt or in Libya, somewhat reasonable to put yourself on the line. In Egypt certainly it is not a done deal, but they could go home at night or run back home or run to their friends. It is hard to have a revolution, a non-viral revolution when we all come from places that we take six months to walk to, because in a day or a week to drive to. SM (00:23:57): Well it is- JG (00:23:59): It has been a real problem and what I am getting to is that I think the violence was a mistake, but I think we have a hard time being humans. I think that is what King had was vehement, relentless vehement. I think that is what we lack and that is where it is human nature. I know in some ways I am not blaming us, but we are narcissism. V for vendetta: A Revolution Without Dancing Isn't Worth Having. Well, revolution without... I think we were not clear that we all needed to do what Gandhi had done and sit there and until it changed non-violently. SM (00:24:49): One of the things too is that in 1970, I can remember seeing posters or signs from all the other movement groups, the Women's Movement, the certainly Civil Rights Movement and Chicano Movement, Native Americans. They were all there. Nowadays, it seems like all the movements are isolated. Am I wrong in this? They do not work together. They are all isolated in their own, they are more interested in their own issues and not combining issues. JG (00:25:19): I have thought about that, but I think you are right, but there was something weird and confusing about that. You are right. There was a protest anti-nuclear there would be everything there. I think it is a little, it was probably exposing an error in our thinking. I will not say it was a mistake because who is deciding? But in an error in our constitution that if you believe what Paul Ehrlich said in Population Bomb or what we were saying about nuclear and stuff. We are talking about the extinction of life on earth and perhaps the demise of the human race. To come and carry signs, however well-intentioned and important cause about social issues, those are relatively unimportant comparison to destroying the whole planet or our complicity in wars that are killing out the people. They are important. You see what I am saying? SM (00:26:29): Mm-hmm. JG (00:26:29): But my personal, that is why I was so happy in Fahrenheit. We did not really go over aboard with the Patriot Act. It is chilling and crucial evil, but in the end, it is all about us and the special media issue. I want to be free. The larger evil is that we are attacking these nations to try and dominate resources. SM (00:26:55): It is interesting that when I talked to a feminist leader and she said, "Steve, we are working together, except you do not see it. It is on legislation that is being proposed in Congress. Various organizations are working together, they are just not protesting in public together." Well, I do not know if that is true or not, but that was a comment. And also Gaylord Nelson, who I did know, founder of Earth Day, who I interviewed before he passed away for this book project and I worked with him on 10 leadership programs down in Washington, so he was a good man. Even he, when you read his statements on Earth Day, one of the things that he was proposing and talking about he does not seem like anybody is talking about anymore, and that is the population boom. That he talked about the fact that if we overpopulate the planet, we are not going to have enough food to feed everyone. Then of course then all the environmental issues come up. I often think of Gaylord because I think even when Earth Day 40 was happening in Wisconsin, there were people there saying they were co-founders of Earth Day. Well, Gaylord Nelson, that was his idea. He was the man that made that happen and he was also- JG (00:28:10): He was Republican. SM (00:28:10): Huh? JG (00:28:13): Was not he a Republican? SM (00:28:14): Oh no, he was a Democrat. He was a Lyndon LaRouche democrat, two term governor of Wisconsin and two term senator from Wisconsin, and of course he worked for the Wilderness Society until he died, but did not seem like people were even listening to his thoughts on population. I do not know if you sense that, but I do. All the other issues are being brought up about the environment, but they are not talking enough about overpopulation and that is an issue. JG (00:28:44): It is the story of our issues that I was just thinking about how open my thumb and the whole complex issue of humanity in the planet. Humans have two stories. Do we have a story that is scientific and technical and that gets us bows and arrows and gets us started, gets us tabs and cell phones. We also have a story that is cultural and social and comforts us against whether it is the leopard that might eat us or the infinity of outer space that is so huge and we are so small. That is religion or myth or culture. Both those stories go together and that is why right now we are in confusing time because people are not understanding everything is perfectly explained that is going on in the world by the predictions of the (19)60s. I just want to affirm we were very, very ripe, but we got away from it. We let the addiction that is this culture get to us and we cannot blame the corporation because I cannot sit here with the iPad and jet pick up my pocket and then cry about the corporations. It is like who is going to give me that stuff? The Amish? I do not think so. But the story were as a species is the story that we started to get and then we moved away from that and those Paul Lake, Gaylord Nelson, those people were in tune with that story. SM (00:30:25): Christopher Lash wrote that book, the Culture of Narcissism in (19)79. JG (00:30:29): I remember. SM (00:30:31): And that was a big seller, and of course he was basically saying that a lot of the Boomers had gone into becoming yuppies or what he making a lot of money and that kind of stuff in their late twenties and early thirties, but then he was also talking about the next generation too, which I believe is the Generation Xers, which were the sons and daughters of Boomers. In fact, today's colleges, 15 percent of the college students centering this year are from parents who are Boomers and 85 percent are the children of Generation X. Where did that... And I am going to get in your background, but where do these two succeeding generations fall in this guilt? In terms of Generation X, which was a generation that I feel had deep problems with the Boomer generation and they were being reared at the time that Reagan was president and many of them took his way of thinking that we did programs out of the university and the programs we did, two main themes came out of it. Number one Generation X was tired of the nostalgia, the thinking that many of the Boomers had about the going back to those times, they were thinking about their music and rock and roll and the protest and all the times. Those are great times and some of the students were tired of hearing about it from Boomers. Then there were those who envied Boomers because they had no causes like the Boomers had except they did have the Anti-Apartheid Movement in the (19)80s, which was a big one on college campuses, but there was really nothing after the (19)70s, late (19)70s and the (19)80s and the (19)90s, nothing. So gen- JG (00:32:19): I told her that. SM (00:32:21): Generation X has some responsibility here too and I think part of them, they wanted to make a lot of money early and I do not know if they ever had the concept of helping humanity. Then you got today's millennial students, which I think are fairly comparable in some respects to the Boomers in terms of they want to leave a legacy but they want to leave it later on in life and not, they want to get married, have families in their twenties and thirties, but they do care about the world and they want to leave a legacy, so they do have some of those same traits. I am studied to hire Ed a long time, and so I do not know if your thoughts on where these two succeeding generations fall and the guilt and the problems we face today. JG (00:33:08): Sure. Well, and in fairness, reason for invoking guilt is that we do believe we have free will. The earth of the material upon us of the human race is what undoes our efforts to be good is that it is so powerful and productive, that is why it works so well. In fairness to us, we just failed to perceive how deep we were into this game and it was like everybody else, but we had the greatest opportunity because we... I was working with young people right after college in social services, doing social work, doing alcohol and drug treatment, doing therapy, doing retreats, all those things. Then I started working at the university of Maryland. Employment was not like the early (19)80s and no, the mid (19)80s. I noticed something changed profoundly that in the (19)70s for eager for these personal growth activities and they eagerly did them and they revealed very important things. It was just a mind-blowing time with people opening up. Fast-forward to the (19)80s and that feeling gotten worse and worse. I remember going into a social work file. I had been doing teaching group process and social work classes for a long time, but just practicing social work students. I did the same activity that I have been doing for 15 years to share something. What was it like when somebody came home from work and five or six o'clock? If you cannot remember, it was a very piggyback exercise, but you were practicing listening too, so you did not care if somebody was listening. One of them was, what was it like at bath time? Did you have a rubber duck, [inaudible] stove? Did you have the bathtub, whatever? Well, so that was one of these different sharing things. When it came time of the bathtub thing, I remember this woman freaked out the social work file, got up and ran from the room and the discussion went around. It is like, "How dare he asked people to share something like that in a class." Wow. I was in some sort of trouble. Then I had a client who we were doing some visualization, relaxation stuff and he came home from his foster family and they were like, "Oh, you were doing devil worshiping." And I am like, "What the hell is going on out there?" But I do not see this and I do not know if you felt this way, but what we failed to recognize when I came to understand that this somewhat anything goes thing, structured thing that we all had flattened was a mistake. It was a mistake. Definitely it is a clear mistake, and what we failed to perceive is what my speech teacher told me, I was a freshman in college. I came in the speech class and I was like, "Oh, I am going to do all this, blah, blah, blah, blah." And he is like, "Okay, here is what we are going to do. I am going to teach you the right way to do a speech and then you can do it your way, but first thing I am going to teach you the right way. Oh, okay, I am going to teach you the structure first, classical speech, and then you decide how to bury it." We had an incredible education. Everybody I knew, most of the students were taking math, physics, everybody was reading. We had this fantastic structured education and then we arrived at the (19)60s and we are all creative. Now, why did we think that unstructured education and chaos, and we were raised by generation that made us feel good about ourselves by being organized and behaving, and then we rebelled when we were teenagers or in college. We misperceived where we came from. We thought it was because we were special and that had burst the balance of repression. No, we were so creative because we had a damn conservative upbringing and we learned the basic of geography, science, math, English, social studies. That makes any sense. I am rambling, so then we were shocked when this generation that we gave a somewhat much more unstructured upbringing to working pharmacist are not creative. SM (00:38:17): It is interesting. JG (00:38:21): All she had to do with the was understand what we were doing wrong was to go back and look. See, we did not want to admit that because we were like the guy that did not want to continue the interview, that did not want to admit there was something good about the business. SM (00:38:32): Well, a lot of students did not want to be carbon copies of the multi diversity that Clark Kert talked about in his book and right after the, just before the Free Speech Movement, he talked about that the university was a multi diversity that students come to a university, prepare for a career and this is the way you get to your career and this is the way it is. The students did not want to be carbon copies of what their parents were in the (19)50s. The IBM mentality, which is the husband leaving the front door, kissing his wife, putting his hat on with his suit, walk into the car and having two children by her side and going off to work. They did not want it, so they were really rebelling against the status quo. JG (00:39:24): We were well-prepared to decide that having had all the basics covered through a nice conservative education. We all knew math. We all knew how to divide and multiply. We all knew the planets and geography, and so does that make any sense or should we- SM (00:39:52): Yeah, and see right now- JG (00:39:53): We had prepared us to make more choices, but to then go to a kindergartner, what would you like to do today? What would you like to learn? That is ridiculous. It is not going to... They do not know that they need to do every day for about eight years. Learn a little math and that is the only way you can have advanced math skills is every day do a little bit of work. I was part of that too. I thought, "Yeah, if we only trust the kids, they will puzzle it out." Well no, that was wrong. SM (00:40:25): I want to get into your background now. From that point that you were, you have talked about those early years in high school and what you did after high school, then you were in college working for a while. How did you go from college work and student affairs to the rest of your career? JG (00:40:47): Yeah, so working on the, well you want me to just... I will just give you the summary of how I got to that. How I actually started the film career was I was working, I had three kids and got divorced and had this blog house in the woods and I was on the Hippy Dream Organic Gardens. We were home birthed. The whole had winded off, fell apart. Do know I had taught college. 21 I wound up having to just work jobs to both support the kids when they were with me and then send her money and to support them when they were with her. It is a nightmare, so I wound up doing just menial social work jobs in a way, because everybody else was getting degrees. Well, I was just working without a degree, so I was really behind the eight-ball. I was working, supervising foster homes and more doing direct [inaudible] like I had done in the (19)70s and for an agency that was getting more and more paperwork. I was always been a writer my whole life. I was trying to break back into writing on the side and written out a book and some articles and publishing some newspaper and stuff, but knew Michael was getting ready to work on Bowling for Columbine. We talked about it a little bit, but I asked if I could tag along with them. When they were filming in Flint, not realizing you could not tag along with the film crew. Again, I had never been around anything as far as movie credentials. I am sitting in Traverse City, and this some message just started and Michael comes on the computer, he is like, "What are you doing?" I am like, "Oh, I have a doctor's appointment. I took the day off." He is like, "Oh, well we are going up to St. Helen where Charlton Heston was born St. Helen, Michigan, about an hour north of Flint, hour and a half. You want to meet us there?" Like, "Sure." "Actually, you see if you can get there ahead of us and see if you can find out where the house he grew up in is." I am like, okay. "Oh, see if you can find out where the bug pole is." All right. "The school where he went to, see if you can find out where that is." Yeah. All right. "Oh, here is a list of some people. If you happen to find out where these people that knew him are, that is great." And it is like one this list of 12 things, "But if you cannot meet us there, that is fine." It is the opening day of hunting season, it is slush on the road. I am like, "Okay, all right. I cannot see what he does and join up with them." So I go from Traverse City through the slush, went into some store, "Does anybody know anything about Charlton Heston?" I did not know how to do this, so somebody said, "Oh, go to the library. There is a Charlton Heston thing there." So I went to the library and the librarian, it turns out later, did ask for money for their most famous citizen to help build the library and he had never given it, but he still has a display so I said, "Michael Moore sent me to Tommy wants all this stuff and I do not know what to do and can you tell me where the stuff is?' So she is like, "Sure." She went and got a township map, put a little mark on the map where all these things were. Right around that time they pull up in this big white van and I run out there and I hand in this map with all this stuff on it. Now if you know anything about producing, if you have a list of things like that, you might spend a lot of time researching that more than 10 minutes. They are like, "Oh, okay." Then Michael said, and again he had not really asked me to help, he just said can you meet us there? Then he says, "Oh that is great. Well, why do not you go up to Oscoda because we are going to be there later and see if you find anybody who knew Eric Carroll. One of the Columbine shoots who lived there for five years." I drove up to Oscoda, it was a couple hours away and nobody would talk. "No, no, we do not want to talk." I went into a gas station there was a guy that booked pretty young, so I said, "Did you know Eric Carroll?" Said, "Well, I did not know him." SM (00:45:45): Is he the baseball player? JG (00:45:47): Eric Car- SM (00:45:49): Eric Carroll. JG (00:45:49): Fine shooter. SM (00:45:50): Okay. JG (00:45:52): One of the kids did the Columbine Massacre was from Oscoda. SM (00:45:54): Oh, okay. JG (00:45:57): So this kid said, "Well no, I pulled a gun on somebody at school and got kicked out though." So I told Michael, I said, "Well, nobody will talk, but this one kid pulled a gun on somebody and do you want to interview him?" So they are like, "All right, we will come over there later." About 11 o'clock at night, they made it over there, got dinner, the kids get off work, he was working at a gas station. His relief comes on. I asked him, I said, "Did you happen to know Eric Carroll?" He said, "Well, yeah I went to school with him." I said, "Oh, well Michael Moore is coming over here." And so they set up the bowling alley next door, the two boys went over and one is, one is with the bandana you see in the film that sells guns up north and sells in Detroit. The other one was Bomb Boy who sets off bombs in his backyard, and so by the time of those interviews, it was about three in the morning and Michael, so he was riding with me now in my car, we were going to Flint and he is like, "Well, maybe you should stick around with us." I actually drew up my resignation, faxed it in to the social work job, I quit and the next day was leading the film crew around Flint to get there a lot of shots, see with the in Becher. You there in Flint? SM (00:47:17): Mm-hmm. JG (00:47:19): We filmed the next day. Me never having lead a film crew before, did not know what a DP was, did not know anything, but my heart was into it and I knew what to find differently. SM (00:47:40): You then... Yep. JG (00:47:41): Well, the bank thing I was involved with, setting that up, the Barber shop gives you bullets. The dog shoot hunter. I am sitting there watching the movie and I am going, "Michigan militia, James Nichols." I am like, "This is interesting. The first fifteens I either found or had something to do with." My first effort ever that is not too bad. SM (00:48:04): No. JG (00:48:06): Just before the movie was wrapped up, they lost their deal with their composer fell through and Michael knew that I played keyboard. They were like, "Can you come to New York and work on the music a little bit, see what you can come up with? And oh, by the way, we have only got about five days and we have to deliver for cans." All right, so I packed my keyboard in a box. Got my one little keyboard, flew to New York, and I was able to come up with about 15 of the music that they used. Never have not been to New York. SM (00:48:47): Wow. JG (00:48:47): So- SM (00:48:57): Still there? Still there? Hello? JG (00:49:06): Hello. I was scoring, doing most of the other score music for the film on five days and checking the sound mix. Tell me if it is too much detail, but I am sitting in the sound mix and everybody else left and I am the composer. I am sitting there, ask the guy, "Well, when was the last time you worked out?" He is like, "Oh, well Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon." I am like, "Okay." I say, "Well, can you put a little bit more of this in the surround? And I cannot hear that." It is just this weird thing where I fell into it and everything seemed to work and I wound up being strangely comfortable with every part of it. I was in a technical screening I remember for Fahrenheit and there were 30 people there and they had done something in one line of resolution, was listening to the film and I was the only one that caught it. I do not know why I was so instantly tuned into this stuff except the writing background, the social work background, but like many of us, I do not know if you were, but when I was a kid, we went... Movies is what we did instead of sitting at home. SM (00:50:26): Every Saturday morning. Saturday morning was the cartoons normally where I grew up and then the afternoon was all the Cowboys and Indians and Army movies. JG (00:50:37): But even when I was into science fiction and I would wait, my dad was gone when I was little and was in the Big Brother program, and I remember how old was I must have been? Nine. My big brother from the Big Brother program said, "Well, what movie do you want to go to?" And I was like, "Doctors Club." SM (00:51:02): Yeah, it is interesting. There were a lot of dinosaur movies back then. JG (00:51:08): I liked real science fiction, I liked Kubrick first. I did not even realize who he was at that point and then 2001, I waited for that movie was like the second coming and I just- SM (00:51:22): Wow. Yeah. JG (00:51:25): I was in college. Michael and I took film appreciation courses. We never took film courses, but we would draw scripts in high school from Ann Arbor. We would dive in to Steve Moore movies and foreign films and that is what we did. Movies and music, and you know. SM (00:51:44): You have been doing it, how long now? Total of how many years? JG (00:51:47): Probably 10 years. SM (00:51:49): And you have been involved how many movies? JG (00:51:55): Bowling for Columbine was the first and then that turned out okay, so they asked me back to work on Fahrenheit and I was co-producer, the film's composer. In between we worked on Michael's Book, Stupid White Men in Due Place, my Country. Then I did the filming that was Foundation Fortune Workshop and saint. Me and Megan, my hero touring with The Dixie Chicks for a couple weeks. Shot the concert footage for that film in the protest footage, and then I worked on one on Paul Watson and Steve Shepard composer, producer, and then Capitalism. SM (00:52:39): Yeah, that was- JG (00:52:40): But not so many films, because I am in a weird zone where if somebody was asking me to put my name on a film, a friend of mine in New York could trying to get some money for, I am like, "It sounds good but I cannot really put my name on a film that is not in the zone of these other." SM (00:53:01): Yeah, definitely. You are working on, and now you are working on your own film and what is the name of this film? JG (00:53:12): Planet of the Human. SM (00:53:13): Wow. When do you hope to be done? JG (00:53:18): As soon as possible. This year, by the end of the year. SM (00:53:26): It is good. JG (00:53:26): About to do the last round of filming, but it is all connected. Well, some days somebody will have to do, my client has not done it yet. Maybe he will do it, but the inside, sorry, how films were made, but quite a great the teams of people to work with together and great journey. We had the sound mixers from Skywalker Ranch. SM (00:53:58): Wow. JG (00:53:59): Take a break from, in fact, when we were mixing Fahrenheit, we had to pack up all the drives. Sound mix was a huge deal and the end of the film is the most complex part of all. We had to pack up the drives and pack up everybody and fly off to San Francisco and then get in cars and drive up into the Skywalker Ranch because they had to start to mix to Polar Express and we were bumping into that schedule, so they had to do Polar Express by day and Fahrenheit by night for a couple of days. SM (00:54:39): Wow. Well, when you look at your life's journey, then from growing up in Michigan and a very poor family, but a very rich family because in terms of pride in your background and so forth, the experiences you have gone through throughout your life, leading up to being a movie producer, director, you name it. A lot of messages in your movies and a lot of messages that probably people do not want to hear but need to hear. JG (00:55:16): Is the place where you grew up still intact? SM (00:55:19): Pardon? JG (00:55:20): Is the place where you grew up still intact? SM (00:55:23): Oh yeah. Cortland, New York. I grew up in Cortland. I do not know if you have ever heard of it. JG (00:55:30): Oh. SM (00:55:30): Yeah, I grew up in Cortland. I lived there until 1959 and then my dad transferred and then we moved down toward Binghamton, New York. We lived in a small community called Lyle, which I went to Whitney Point High School and it was a small school. I was looking forward to going to Cortland High, which was a big school, but my dad transferred. He was Prudential Insurance. I went, that is my background. Cortland is an interesting story too, because in the 1950s, Cortland was a very successful community and they had a college there because State and Rever Cortland, which was a teacher's college, but a lot of businesses, the downtown was very successful. Brockway Trucks was from there, and then around late around 1960 Brockway left and a lot of businesses left and it really went downhill. It is recuperated quite a bit to this day, but that begets because the college is so big. College is about 14, 15,000 students. That is where the Jets practice now in the summer. They did not this year and brings about four to 7 million dollars in income. Just time there, but it is not the same. Nothing's just been the same since it was in the 1950s. JG (00:57:02): I think it is different about Michael grew up on the edge of all this, he imagined it, but I think for me, Bowling for Columbine, that is where that exact place that you see is where I grew up and I cried the first 30 times. We watched all the way through. Every time we would reach out somebody we had watched it through and I could not stop crying at the end. SM (00:57:27): How have you been- JG (00:57:31): I think the foundation that is different is when you come from a place is risen and fallen and it is basically been destroyed. You understand that it is not a given that the world that we live in, can you? And I think people do not, because we move away from the places that are falling apart and we do not really feel in our guts. We know in our heads population thing and all this stuff that I think the interest between Michael and I, most people is when you come from Flint, Detroit, some part of you knows, you know this deep in your bones all things can change and go away. SM (00:58:20): Yeah. Well it is interesting because even though when I moved from starting seventh grade in this new community, I never considered it my community. My best years were my elementary school years and my college years. I never could adjust really to the changes that took place because Cortland was a much bigger place than being in Whitney Point in that area. We had a nice home and everything, had a good job, but we had some tough times too throughout the time. It was part of America, you have your ups and downs and how you deal with roadblocks and life and everything. I have always seen, when my parents were alive, I would always drive with them back to 10 Hamlin Street, which is where I grew up, the home my parents bought in 1946 after my dad came home from the war and they renovated it and then all of a sudden, we moved. On that street, Hamlin Street is still the same as it was back in the 1950s. It is families raising kids and most of the community has gone downhill, but that street has stayed almost and the houses, actually, the people live in the house now were the children of the people that bought the house from my parents. When I drove up a couple years ago, I was in front of the house, I never stopped, but they were painting it and I thought they might have moved. I said, "Is this house for sale?" And they said, the lady came out and said, "Who are you?" Said, "I am Steven McKiernan and I grew up here." And he says, "Ah, you are one of the three kids that grew up in this house." "Well, do you know me?" And I said, "Yeah, my parents bought the house from your parents." And I noticed downstairs in the cellar, somebody had written it, we had a bathroom downstairs. Somebody had written in the cellar, Steven McKiernan, Christine McKiernan and James McKiernan, and that was me. I wrote it when I was going to the bathroom one time. She said, "We never painted over it because it always reminded us of the children that were in this house before we came here." And she said, "And I got to tell you something else." She took me upstairs and they were renovating the upstairs area because her father was ill and needed a place, but he said, "I and my sister grew up in this room and we knew this was you and Jim's room." I could not believe it. Here she was revealing this. 30 some years later, it is just so I am very pleased with that they have taken care of the house, but I have always gone back to Cortland when I visit my sister in Binghamton because it brings back great memories of my childhood. I loved it in Cortland, so anyway. JG (01:00:55): Whatever, much has to be evil to adjust to these social things, but not the baby with the best mother, but that continuous upbringing where you stand a chance to have a teacher that your parents had and that I could walk to school and require people around the corner store where we got our bread and candy and meat. They live two doors down and their daughter babysit us, and that connected community- SM (01:01:29): Is no more. JG (01:01:31): Is the foundation of and stable education with great stable teachers. That is what allowed us to be so amazing as young people, and we misunderstood and thought that it was us tossing off the oppression that made us so creative. No, it was the gift that we were given. SM (01:01:52): That is very good. JG (01:01:56): And Steven that gift still means that we have a responsibility to understand the story we are in. Maybe the thing I will close with if you want is to- SM (01:02:06): No, you want to keep... You can go ahead. JG (01:02:10): I will just say one thing. Woodstock, the part of Woodstock, and I am using this as a metaphor as much as the actual attempt. SM (01:02:26): You got your answer on healing should be, it is going to be a very important part of your interview. That was a great response. JG (01:02:35): Well, one of the things I have learned is you feel good about yourself through doing good things and good work, and not because I am a specialty. We have gotten too far with the... Are you still- SM (01:02:58): Yeah, I am taping. I am back. JG (01:03:01): The thing that I wanted to be clear about is that, and this is what my movie will be about as soon I can get it done, is that we almost had it right, but we were confused because we wanted to live simply, we want to toss out the military industrial complex and we want to grow our own food and have home birth and travel again many of us. That was the correct vision for how humans should be living. What we failed to understand is that we are in a mess. It has got to take many generations to get back to the point where humans can live simply like that. Our mission though is to hold that in mind, not for ourselves, for seven to 10 generations from now. When we have got our population under control, people can be living in harmony with nature again. We have that vision, and that is my hope we can return to that before we die. That clarity, humans have to get back and down to the planet, and it was not for us, or it is not even for these children now, someday if there are survivors who would be living like people at Woodstock, except very simply and maybe with a little technology. I think there is a lot of hope in what was talked then. It is just we did not understand that our whole doing of that was contained in those years too. The partying and the narcissism. SM (01:04:38): You write your movie, I cannot wait for it. If it comes to Philly, I hope you come there for the premiere, because at the Ritz Theater, they do a lot of premieres there and they have actually producers that come and talk. They had one last week for a movie that I went to, and I hope that the Boomer generation is reaching 65 and maybe they need to reflect more. If you are talking 13,500 a day turning 65 for the next, God, 19 years, or excuse me, 15 years, that is a lot of people. If they can be talking and asking these same questions, conservatives, liberals, independence, no matter where they stand politically, they still got one fourth of their life still ahead of them. Many are going to have to continue to work because unfortunately we are living in a tough economy, but that does not mean they cannot work on some of these issues. And certainly those that, I hope they change retirement because retirement really is not retirement anymore. I hope it is not just about rich people moving to Florida and Arizona and taking six trips a year around the world. I know I cannot do that and most of the people I know cannot do that, but that is the dream that you see on TV, but in reality, this same generation that we were talking about that had such promise in your words, still is alive, still has a chance to do something to help correct what you are talking about. JG (01:06:15): What happened, understanding that my, if I could afford a dream house somewhere and to cruise around the world in my senior years. You know what? When we were 18, did not we know that that meant that somebody else was not having the resources to even be comfortable? We have got to get back into balance and take control again, and I think we could do that. SM (01:06:42): Any final thoughts you have on anything like the final thought on the legacy of this generation called Boomer? Do not forget too, that one thing I have found through this project is the Boomers are between 1946 and (19)64, but those Boomers in the first 10 years are much closer to a lot of the older members of what I call the silent generation. Those born between (19)40 and (19)45. Many of them were mentors and role models and leaders of the Anti-War Movement and all kinds of movements. And Richie Havens told me, he said, "When you talk about the spirit of the (19)60s, I may not be a Boomer within the terms of that sociologists and higher ed people label them, but I am a Boomer in spirit." So I have learned, and even Todd Gitlin told me that he cannot stand generational terms, he cannot stand the word Boomer generation, the greatest generation, Generation X, millennials. He cannot stand all that because he said we need to be more reflective of the times we live in and the events that shaped our lives and we do not have to be put into a nutshell, and so in some respects- JG (01:07:58): Yeah, I do not- SM (01:07:59): In some respects the people that were born safe from (19)38 to (19)45, or even closer to those Boomers of who were born between (19)46 and say (19)56 than those within the generation who were born in the first 10 years in the second 10 years. JG (01:08:24): If we were to talk for a while, my perspective is so different than so many people. The reason we kept this versions of the (19)50s is that we were the first generation that had the material wealth. Some are our dudes instead of our elders. It is not because the (19)50s were so horrible that we rebelled it. It is because we lived in such luxury that we had the privilege to rebel it. SM (01:08:40): We had the time to do it too. JG (01:08:42): The time to do it. You could live on very, very little in (19)66 to (19)97. SM (01:08:47): Right. Well, I do not have any anymore questions unless you want to add one? Any final thoughts? JG (01:08:56): Yeah, no, I think you are right. You understand how much the gift the (19)60s was from those that mentor did and thought things like what you got for you. SM (01:09:13): Oh yes. JG (01:09:13): Take care and we will- SM (01:09:14): Yeah. What I will need from you, Jeff, I am going to need two pictures- (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jeff Gibbs https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cd4662855fa8154460bd498084384a2d.jpg 2bc186292a060a9625368568d048141e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bb7e1245387b00efd44b49eeac34433b.mp3 4cf8d95ae435790625b01ff6f58d3d13 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 10 August 2004 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Lois DeFleur Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:22:41 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Dr. Lois DeFleur, native of Illinois, was the first female president at Binghamton University (1991-2010). She came to Binghamton after being provost at the University of Missouri. Before that DeFleur had served as a Sociology professor at Missouri State University and Washington State University. She has a Ph.D. in Sociology from University of Illinois. Keywords 1960s; Women rights; Democracy; Baby boomers; Protests; Millennials; College students; Vietnam War Memorial; Communities; Minority groups; John F. Kennedy. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Dr. Lois DeFleur Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Kimberly F Mourao Date of interview: 10 August 2004 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:06 SM: How is a- going there? I just interviewed last week, Arthur Levine. And what an interview, it was great. 00:15 LD: He is a phenomenal human being. 00:17 SM: When you think of the 1960s, and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? When you think of that period? 00:26 LD: It is a period of expanding voices and expanding rights for people who had been on the margins of society. Including women. 00:42 SM: Explain a little bit more about the, the women's aspect? 00:46 LD: Well, you see, I mean, I remember when I have been the first woman in all of my different positions, I was only the second woman who got a PhD from Illinois in my field. And I remember the difficulty and trying to get a job, and just working on my PhD, and they did not really take you seriously. And then they would have trouble. If you were a single woman, they would say, well, you just going to get married, or, and I had gotten married. And then they said, well you are not serious about your career, and you, we will hire you, but you can be the so called “Junior professor” who works for one of our stars. And, and then just, I mean, as a student, and then later as a professional, and then seeing other women come along in their, and, you know, I helped in the (19)70s, early, late (19)70s, early (19)80s, I helped the Air Force integrate women. So, what I see is I know it was a period of national divisiveness. But what I, I just see is so important to this whole society and to the people are all of these, you know, reaching out and having developing a more inclusionary society, even though we still are not. I mean, obviously. So, to me, it was not just about the political, but I guess that I just really felt that it was the key time for the social revolution. 02:42 SM: It is interesting that in recent years, I can even go back to when Newt Gingrich was in power, you can, George Will all the time when he writes, he likes to take shots of the, the boomers in that period of time. Your thoughts on you know, the criticisms of the boomers in terms of boomers are often defined as those born between (19)46 and (19)64. But anyone who knows what happened in the (19)60s knows, as a lot of the leaders of that particular era were born around 1940, (19)41, (19)42. But your thoughts on this concept of it, George Will and Newt Gingrich were the boomers responsible for the breakdown of our society of its values, because they you hear that criticism a lot from people like that? 03:33 LD: Well, if I look at the values of this society, we talk about equality, opportunity, openness, democracy, I mean, the we were not fully I mean, there were so many people who were not fully able to take advantage of the values. I mean, it was really you know, the gunner Murdock Murdock book, The American dilemma, which is here as your theory about equality opportunity. And here is reality. And the American dilemma is what do you do with a society where there is such a gap between theory and the reality. And to me, this was a period when we began to close some of that gap between theory and reality. 04:36 SM: I have the first edition of that book. I go into a lot of use bookstores, if you looked at the boomer generation, again, when as a university president, but also as a scholar and as a great sociologist to what, what has been the impact of the generation at that particular time on our society. As these as the boomers has evolved in the middle age, and now we were approaching old age, have they lived up? To this a lot of the things that they were involved in, in that group? 05:16 LD: I do not know. I mean, you could, I mean, many of the leaders of different movements have, I mean, they do not sustain a life of, of, you know, challenging and rebelling. In the society. I mean, very few people do, there are a few people who probably their entire lives are, you know, challenging and rebelling and, and really devoted to major change. I mean, I do not know how you would interpret that, I mean, you have got someone like a Ralph Nader, or, or you have gotten Jesse Jackson, or there is others, John Lewis, but I, in being a social scientist, I think it is more natural for people to evolve over time. And what was so phenomenal about that period is you had such large numbers, who came together, who were concerned about a whole range of social justice issues and the opportunity issues and, you know, the, the direction of our society. So, I would not expect those people to sustain that over a lifetime because that is not the course of natural, sort of, or the typical human development. I mean, what is, you know, as people, it is well known as people get older, they tend to become more socially politically. Con-, you know, you might say, quote, I do not know if it is conservative, I hate to use that label, because it now has different meanings. But people become, well, what people, people become less involved in social change themselves. Not I mean, as a general rule, and most people in social movements are younger people, there is less at stake, there, you are more of a risk taker, when you are younger. 07:38 SM: I always remember when we had Dave Dravecky, the baseball player on our campus, and then he is a conservative and not a liberal and we got into a conversation, he said “Steven in time, in time, you will be just like me.” No, I am not going to be like him politically, ever. But- 07:59 LD: But, but, you know, you are, there. People when their age and their concerns, and they change, and it makes it, that is why people really, I mean, there is some things that, you know, your general tendencies, I guess, remain the same, but your attitudes and values really do change over the decades of your life, because you are in different life circumstances. 08:30 SM: When you look at the- 08:33 LD: That was what was so funny, when I came to Binghamton, and I have met so many of the group who were here in the late (19)60s, (19)70s. And some, the bulk of them say, Oh, yes, I remember this. And here, you know, we were doing, we were protesting, we were in your office, we were doing that or that. But to, you know, many of them are in very ordinary and even extraordinarily capitalistic, you might say endeavors. 09:11 SM: They became part of the establishment- 09:13 LD: Well, right, that is not atypical- 09:17 SM: When you break down, if you were to list two or three or four qualities that you most admired in that generation, and, and qualities that you least admired. What would those qualities be? 09:31 LD: Well, I think the concern for the what I admire most is looking beyond yourself to other groups and other, you know, things happening in society and being concerned about it being willing to take action to express that concern. Today's students at least here at Binghamton, they are so focused on their individual life course, as opposed to, you might say the broader life, you know, life course of our society. I mean, they still are, there is more. Well, I think, I think that in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s, most students would say, here at Binghamton, they are liberal or to left to center. Today, when we do those same surveys, the students are distributed more on the normal curve. We have a good chunk of students who say they are conservative in their social values and in their attitudes, the bulk of them, of the students today describe themselves as moderate, very interested in their own personal futures. But they also I mean, they, they do worry about the environment, they worry about different things, and then we have a very few who say that they are left to center or they are liberal. And in fact, the women, the young women have no concept that they might not in some future date have legal rights to abortion. I mean, they just or that they might not, I mean, they do not understand that they, it was not easy for, you know, older women like to get loans to buy houses to get, there was open discrimination in jobs like, well, a woman, you are a woman, you do not need to apply. It is not to say everything is perfect now, but things you know, they are women like got, a lot of economic and social rights during that period, as well as other groups did too. 12:07 SM: We hear talking about the qualities question later on, but I am going to move right in here. When you think that today's college students are the sons and daughters of boomers, and now we are seeing the first sons and daughters of the generation Xers, the real, the ones that had children very young, so I cannot say they are all boomers. But what have, what have the boomer parents really done with their kids? I remember interviewing one person at Westchester University, she said, I am not going to bore my kids with the civil rights movement, because it does not. Oh, Mom, you are going back to your past. And I and I do not know how often that happens. I am curious as to have, have the boomer parents instilled in their sons and daughters a concept of service, a concept of caring about others, a concept of “we” as opposed to “I” and I, and then but then as to the some of the qualities you are talking about where their career oriented? Maybe this has not been instilled in their sons and daughters. And I want to know what your thoughts are. 13:14 LD: Well, I think it is a mixed picture. Because we have a much higher proportion of students who come here who have already done volunteerism participated in community service, and who are concerned about their communities. I guess what I would, they do not have I think they, they, believe in some things, and they have some causes. But they also, I think, they are more. At the same time. They are conflicted, because they really are very career oriented, very, very, particularly the students at Binghamton, a high proportion have double majors, they want to have internships, they want to get leadership experiences, so they have a competitive edge. At the same time, I would have to say that there are some that you could call are, you know, that their social and political views are more conservative, but the bulk of them say that they are, they described themselves as moderate. And actually, they all they just take it for granted. That for example, as a young woman, I have to tell you when I talk to young women they take for granted that whether they personally ever wanted to be able to have an abortion that it would be available, they take for granted that they will be able to have a full-fledged real high-powered career and through you know, whatever arrangement be able to do family. So they, they really want it all, but they are less, I guess they are less focused, focused on broad, you know, broad groups of people and trying to change things for like, even though we have a, you know, fairly active rainbow pride here, I do not see the students really talking to me about we are concerned because here is the group that like women or minorities, they do not, they know do not have all the rights, or they do not have the possibility of even the opportunities or taking full advantage of the so called rights in our system. 15:51 SM: There is a brand-new book out it's a fantastic book, I went to the ACPA conference and I went to force sessions on millennials. You know, my nephew's a millennial trying to understand them Bowling Green University has a tremendous staff there that has really studied this issue very hard. And there is a book out by Irving Howe and, and I would like your thoughts on his-, and I asked this to Arthur Levine as well, his premise is exactly what you are saying with today's college students. You cannot criticize the parents. Today's college students do care about a career. And in fact, a lot of the boomers have done very well in their lives. There is some very rich ones, the richest people in the world. And they were the ones that were antiestablishment. But one of the qualities that this young generation of millennials thinks about already is a legacy. Now, it is interesting Howe believes the millennials have no time, right? They want their career, they want to raise a family, they want to know, you know, their career and all these other things. However, they are thinking about giving back when they when they get older, and have the money to be able to do so and, and Howe basically states that the millennials are very close to the World War II generation in wanting to give back, and Arthur Levine said that, oh, wait a minute. He got right into what the boomers going to give back. So, I do not know if your thoughts on Irving Howe thoughts on today's students, but- 17:24 LD: I think they do what I think they are concerned about legacy. And I think they do, you know, to some extent want to give back. I think that varies. But what I do not see them doing is, you know, if we have a protest, we have occasionally still we have protests. But it only draws a few people. 17:50 SM: Christopher told me about a few that were here. 17:53 LD: I mean, but it only draws right 30, 40 people. But, you know, I think that is understandable because they are there for a variety of reasons. There began to be people who say, look, we have not been treated, right, we have been disenfranchised in a variety of ways. And then they are also at the same time going on in the society with the Vietnam. There was a sense that, you know, we had the draft, people were getting killed. I think having an all-volunteer army takes a lot of the wind out of the sails for some of these international issues. 18:43 SM: That could change next year. 18:45 LD: I do not think so knowing the military, they do not ever want to go back to that. They would rather use incentives and get people because they just I mean, they I know it may be challenging, but they it is just a much better situation for them. 19:07 SM: We have some activist students on our campus that are organizing a two day teach in, in October, about, about Iraq trying to- 19:16 LD: Well we had one here and we actually brought in some speakers. there We were out of we have about 13,500 students, and maybe a couple 100 participated and they had it over a period of a week. 19:38 SM: We have Bobby Miller coming in. And H. Bruce Franklin from the Newark campus of Rutgers and Dr. Radu from the Foreign Relations Council. So, it is an interesting group for and against. Do you think that, getting back to Vietnam, that the antiwar movements, particularly the college students, were responsible for ending that war? Or they were, what? How important were they in ending the war in Vietnam? 20:08 LD: They were very important. But I think it was a combination of things. It was not just the protests here, the simple fact was we were losing the war on the ground over there, we were fighting a war that we did not understand. And we did not understand the people, we did not understand that the Vietnamese have been, you know, what, they have had four different major powers try to invade and dominate them. And they are very proud of the fact that they beat back all of them. French, the Japanese, Chinese and, and Americans, I mean, they, you know, they are very proud people. 20:54 SM: Vietnam- 20:55 LD: There is that if you, you know, I went there with a group of educators before we had all the formal relationships, and we were looking at the universities, which were in terrible shape. And in talking to people, you know, you are friendly, do you know, what do you feel about the Americans and they said, we do not feel anything, we won the war. And now, America is in competition with Australia and Sweden and other countries trying to get, you know, opportunities over here. We have a long history, there is a wonderful museum in, in Hanoi, about the sort of the social cultural history of Vietnam. And it shows how they feel like they beat back all the foreigners who wanted to remake their society. 21:52 SM: That is, 80 percent of people live in Vietnam now were not even born when the war ended in 1975. It is amazing. 22:01 LD: See I think, I think that one of the big differences is that the young people do not face going off, being forced to go off, you know, fight really challenging or being, you know, a very, very distant and very, very foreign to most of them, they do not know and understand a lot about, you know, the Asian cultures, which are very different than the western one. And, you know, having all of that, and at the same time overlaid with, with minorities and women and others saying, look, we have been excluded from opportunities in this society. So it all came together. 22:52 SM: Yeah, the, the arguments right now, about if there is going to be a draft cause in Westchester, we have several individuals who are in the National Guard, and the Guard has been talking about there is talk behind the scenes, whether it will ever happen or not. I do not know, currently, Rangle has been one of the members of Congress has been kind of pushing for it. And the declaration and the talk at Westchester and data renew is going to bring this up from Foreign Relations Council that if it does happen, it is going to affect college students, but that was, they are going to make it, it would be totally different than it was before. College students that maintain a B or above average would not go would not be drafted. And the pressure to maintain a B would be pretty high. 23:35 LD: See I do not know how they could do to tell you the truth. I mean, the military needs a wide range of skills, and they need some of the people who are doing you know, different levels and different kinds of work. I just, I just do not you know, I just having worked with the Air Force for four or five years. I was on loan, I was not in the Air Force. And they just felt that when you look at all the other indicators, like getting the skill levels that they need, having people you know, really work together as a unit, having lower rates of AWOL, I mean, all of those things. I mean, what they have done of course is reached out to people and said look like women and women who go in like it a lot of them because it offers them the opportunity to get training that they cannot easily get whether it's pilot training, whether it is mechanics, training, whether it is military police training, whether you know, being you know, whatever. A lot of these jobs is too hard outside here to really go in. And they and the military is the only institution in this society where men and women and different racial groups get equal pay and equal benefits. The only one, the only one. 25:24 SM: Well it should be interesting. I also do not believe it is going to happen. But, but to hear discussions at National Guard, unit weekend gatherings is interesting because they do not want to, they feel they are going to have to take the brunt of it. 25:40 LD: Well they are. 25:41 SM: Yeah, well, they are not too happy- 25:44 LD: Yeah because I know- 25:47 SM: We have a couple of Westchester that ended up just getting off my interview. But we have a couple at Westchester that signed up and because of the fact that their college education is being paid for, but they did not think they would have to fight. So, this, this gets into the whole issue of trust. We all know people that live during that period young people at Watergate and Vietnam War it was full lies. We saw leaders like Johnson the Gulf of Tonkin was really a lie. I have even met- 26:19 LD: Oh, I am sure glad it is not going on today. 26:23 SM: Oh, oh you are darn right if the university- 26:26 LD: Oh, it is not going on today, there are not any liars. 26:29 SM: The next time you see Arthur Levine ask him about knee pads. What? How did you find out about that story about knee pads? Well, when you do see him, ask him just I will not tell you the story, knee pad. But the whole issue of trust. I think a lot I am seeing on my campus at Westchester is students are not trusting their leaders are not trusting national leadership. And that is why there is a question they think that they will sneak the draft in. And of course, we went through the boomers went through a whole period of not trusting their leaders. What, what influence as a sociologist in this society as a nation, what did that period do? The Boomer when boomers were young, to affect the concept of trust in this nation toward leaders toward, toward anything and is an ongoing? 27:23 LD: It still is, I mean, to some extent, I think that that people are, you know, they are not just passive and acceptive, accepting. But they, you know, I would say, yeah, I mean students, that was the whole era of student rights too, remember? I mean, and when we really lost the in loco parentis, the whole thing. And so, I do not think you ever go back to that period, where any group is willing to just sit back and say, oh, well, you tell me what is good for me. I just do not think any group in our society is willing to do that anymore. Maybe there are some that I do not see, because I am in academia, but you know, I just do not see in the workplace. I mean, are the workers here? I mean, I cannot just go out and say, okay, we are going to change, you know, the way you know, what people do in certain work, you know, place settings were going to change. I mean, they, they want to know why they want to know, you know, you know, what's happening why, and, and they are, I mean, this, of course, is a very open egalitarian organization compared to I think, to a lot of what should I say sort of traditional businesses compared to an IBM and all of that. 29:08 SM: When you look at you mentioned one of the qualities of students today well they want to be involved in leadership roles they want to get Marines. So how does that compare to the, the boomers who, in general, did not trust at least the people that were involved in the antiwar movement in any kind of activism did not trust and young people are striving to be leaders, but they do not trust leaders. Is not that an oxymoron or there is a conflict here. I want to be a leader but I do not trust them people who are leaders or is that the inspiration to become a leader is I am going to become a better leader. 29:43 LD: I think that I think through you know, our experience that people are, people are just more questioning and they are more skeptical. And I mean that. I do not think it has anything to do with saying I can do a better. I just think in general people are. They are more litigious, and they are more, you know, they are more assertive. Well, you see it in the university, the students and the parents, they are demanding, they are assertive. And I think that is because, you know, it is hard to take advantage of the so called, you know, opportunities in America it is still hard. It is very hard. Back then, probably harder than it was at other times. And so, people are, you know, God, they are questioning, they just do not, you cannot, I mean, they do not trust you. On the other hand, they are not. They are not ready to, like, say, the heck with most other things, I am just going to devote myself to these one or two causes. They are going to question they are going to demand their rights they are going to send, you know, our students were upset because the Provost changed the drop deadline. You know, itis the longest of any, it used to be, you could go, what, 10 weeks or 12 weeks. And so, we figured out that that was that was costing a lost opportunity of seats for students, other students, because they could, you know, you at the other. I mean, on the one hand, you could you could not drop, I mean, you could drop, but you could not add for all that time. And so, what happened is that people were taking this time, and others did not have the opportunity, like to get in courses and do that. And it's just so competitive, that, you know, they, they wanted to retain that. And so what did they do? A couple of students, the leaders, the SA passed resolutions, but more importantly, some of our students in our so called Honors Program, scholars, organized a giant like both petitions plus they got a listing of parents, I think, from the directory, and they do they sent they got money, they raised money themselves, plus the SA gave them some so they sent all of these letters to parents say, you right, you know, here is a letter they included a draft letter send this to the provost, and then it says, “We are never going to give any money to bring him to we are not going to do this or that and you are mistreating my students and all of this.” So, they are activists. But you see, it was over a very and they did it, it was some of our best students and they did it in a rather creative way I thought, I thought, within the system almost 33:28 SM: Right. It is a different type of an activism but it is not the Vietnam War, but it is- 33:34 LD: They were not willing I mean, to, like not go to their classes. That is the difference too. And they are they are not willing. In fact, they get mad if professors like canceled their classes. 33:47 SM: And heard of students going to protest and this is- 33:50 LD: No no. 33:53 SM: One of the things and I this is a general question you touched on it a little bit is I can remember even the students here people, a lot of the boomers will always think as a group that we are going to change the world. We are going to be the most unique generation in American history, and almost kind of an arrogance. Of being young the world's going to be a lot different. We are going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, all the -isms for bring peace to the world, nuclear arms are going to disappear. There was that attitude and a feeling when you think of that, was that all was it sincere. Your thoughts on that was it a sincere feeling at that time and have they lived up to it. Were, I guess basically I am saying were they the most unique generation in American history. 34:48 LD: I do not know that would be hard because when you go back in I think that is hard to say. They certainly but they are different. And they you know, but I do not know. I mean, there have been other generations where there is been tremendous social change. And only it has been done in different ways, in a different way, I would say. I mean, you know, I mean, the technological revolution, I mean, it is the students who are leading that the ones who were, you know, at the, at the cutting edge, in terms of all the computers, the technology, I mean, they are more at the cutting edge than most of our faculty, and so the students are out there on the cutting edge, and they talk about how they are going to change the society but not point in the same ways. I think, I think, I think this generation, they are so concerned about what is going to happen to them. What is going to happen to them when they are older? What is going to happen to them, when they you know, when they are middle aged, old age. 36:14 SM: If I was a, if I was my nephew today, I would be thinking, what is a college education going to be costing in 20 years? At the rate things are going. God what kind of a salary, am I going to have to make that and then you, then you have to think as we think of equality within our society, the concept of opportunity, making sure that minority students will continue to come, there is access to grants and monies to bring all students in and we are cannot forget that as, as prices go up. 36:46 LD: I mean, what, what they are seeing is a diminishment of that access, not only for some minorities, but for the lower socio-economic levels, we are seeing educational accesses has been curtailed. Because today, basically, although not for the really lowest income, I mean, most of the things today are need base, not, of course, merit based. And so, it is sort of the working class and the middle class that are feeling the real pressure, real pressure. Most of the parents I talked with here, when they are bringing their students they number one, both of them have jobs of some kind. Number two, it is often a merge sort of family. So, they would say, well, her daughters we are sending her daughter to this school, and my son is going here. So, they have multiple children to pay for. They have got you know, trying to do you know, their jobs, multiple jobs. Plus, in New York, we have a lot of immigrants we have, we still have a lot of students who are first generation college here a lot of more immigrants we have, what is it 20 some percent where English is not spoken in the home. 38:34 SM: Did not know that, how many Vietnamese students do you have here? 38:39 LS: Not a lot, some but you know, the Vietnamese I mean, there are some around this area and some in New York, but I do not think that New York was as big a resettlement area as some of the other places really 38:56 SM: Philly is a strong Vietnamese community. And I advise the AAAO. I am their advisor, I have gotten so close to them. They are. They are the sons and daughters of the boat people. And the stories about their parents met and when they were on an island camp waiting to come to United States, but it is just a tremendous story. Because they are such a successful group of people. I- it is amazing. It is a very sensitive issue. You know, I read a lot of sociology too. And a lot of books that have been written about the Korean community, about the African American community. They got the Latino community, and the African American community in Miami. And then and then in Philadelphia, the community of Vietnam. They started on a lot of businesses on the streets of Philadelphia selling glasses and, and then they work their way into businesses that have become very successful and their kids are going to school and they are doing real well. And it has become a very sensitive issue in the African American community. And so, there is a lot of tensions with a minority group. So yeah, and but what the university seems to bring people all together, you kind of get a family there. But then in society, they got to deal with all these issues. 40:13 LD: Well, you still, you know, we still have very segregated housing patterns. 40:20 SM: Now, that is still the same in Westchester too- 40:22 LD: It is everywhere. 40:23 SM: I wanted to ask this business about healing. A lot of the things that I have been working on deal directly with the Vietnam War, and the Vietnam Veterans and those who protested the war, the whole concept of healing. The Vietnam Memorial was built in 1982. It has been there now for 22 years. And we all know that the Vietnam Memorial was supposed to be a nonpolitical entity to heal the families and to heal the vets. It was done a pretty good job with the vets and their families. Although the question I am asking is what have, what has that wall really done with respect to healing the nation and this war? And have we as a nation healed as a society from that war? The healing processes? 41:17 LD: You know, I think the society is forever impacted by it. 41:22 SM: And I am referring to the boomer generation as they age, because you hear the stories about the, the sons and daughters being at the wall with their parents, what do you do in the war Daddy, and he was a protester or something like that. So, and the story is over, and over and over. So, I do not know. What is whether healing is an issue within the boomer generation. 41:47 LD: I think they have moved on, I do not know whether maybe for some it was the healing. I look at it more that most of them have gone on to different phase in their life. And they believe that our society has gone on to another phase in its life. 42:09 SM: You kind of believe what Senator, I interviewed Senator Nelson. And he said that people do not go around Washington, DC boomers that are in politics with on their sleeve with healing about the Vietnam War. But he said it has forever changed the body politic. It had that kind of an impact. 42:30 LD: Probably, I would say is true. Well, you saw it, as we start to go into any kind of conflict. Is this going to be quote, another Vietnam? You know, I mean, it. It raises questions about, again, about the US, and do we have the right to just go in anywhere? And I mean, it brings a lot of questions about our foreign policy, about our priorities about, you know, relationships. 43:13 SM: Civil Rights was the center core of the (19)50s and (19)60s and most people realized that all the movements use their example, the civil rights movement, the women's movement, and certainly the anti-war movement. Your thoughts on the civil rights movement, where it is today? Obviously, what the boomer, we talk about the boomer generation having a direct bearing on the civil rights movement. Well, they were the young people, the marches, but they were older people that were the leaders of the marches. They were not boomers. And just your thoughts on where we are with civil rights today, and the impact of that period had on civil rights. 43:49 LD: Well it was transforming. But again, if you look at what is theory in terms of our nation, our political theory, I mean, you know, women still make lists. And then, man, the bulk of the people who are in prison or African Americans, they, African American males do not finish school. The height of the unemployment is huge, the AIDS, HIV among you know, and each of these different, you know, minority groups has some different, you know, challenges that that it faces. And so, I think they are, I mean, there is still quote, an American dilemma. There still is a gap between what our theory says about how we run our society and what reality is, I mean, you just look at our older people, our healthcare or, you know, any of these social problems. And I will tell you, I mean, we still got a lot of, we have got a big gap between, you know, this so-called what America, it says in terms of our rights and our opportunity living up to living up to this theory. Yeah, living up to the dream. 45:28 SM: Yeah you cannot really blame the boomer generation because every generation has a responsibility. And including this new generation- 45:38 LD: Yeah it will be interesting to see if, in a few years, if, you know, we are in an era where they are not paying attention to social and a lot of economic issues. A lot of social, cultural and economic issues here in the US, they are not putting those at the top of the priorities. And it will be interesting to see. Particularly, the boomers come into the retirement and they need the health care, and they, they need the drug, the prescription drugs stuff, and, and, you know, a lot of surveys show that Americans really value having, you know, a good environment, open spaces, you know, and all of that, and that Americans are not necessarily behind the assault on a lot of these areas of our life. So, it will be interesting to see, not only what happens in the short term, but if, you know, there is sort of ups and downs like this. And I think we are at a point where there are a lot of people who are older, and they are. They are from a different generation, and they are willing to accept a lot more than the group coming up. 47:15 SM: I think a lot of the boomers refused to join AARP for many, many years. Either like, not admitting that they are, they are 50, or finally, in deciding when they get into their mid-50s, or late 50s. “Well gee there are some benefits.” Actually, definitely Levine was hilarious on this one, he refuses to join. Because it was the was the drug policy that happened this past year. That infuriated him, he said I will never that that particular organization- 47:48 LD: They sold out, they sold out. My poor mother who was in her nineties. I mean, she was gone, she and some of her friends. I mean, they are lifelong. I would say rather, not super conservative, but republicans a whole area, my whole family. And they have had it because they do not understand these new drug programs. They were losing different benefits. They have my mother lost finally, my dad's like executive pension. And so, they are getting to be, you know, like a gray Panther. And I said, well, Mother, what are you and your friends going to do? They are all women; the men had died. And she said, “Well, we may not vote.” And I said, “No.” She said, we cannot bring ourselves they are not they are not comfortable with carry. But do you know the way they are talking is back, you know, is really, that we have given and lived all these decades in this society. We have worked hard we have given you know, sweat and blood in different arenas, whatever it might be. And we have supported it. And like now, they are not going you know, we were we cannot make it on social, maybe on Social Security, the medical and the drugs. I mean, are scaring them to death, long term care. 49:19 SM: My dad had that. He was just so totally confused we had to help him. My dad was always smart. He was up to date on everything. He was in insurance sales but- 49:27 LD: But I you know what I was, I have been stunned to hear and I mean mother in her mind, she goes and volunteers that the old people's home, she is in her 90s these other people, she is taking care of them. But they are all so upset because they worry. You know, will they have to choose between paying the rent or paying, my mother said I am not going to renew my cable, because she has to take a couple of these drugs are so expensive and I do not want any charity, you know? So I say, Oh, well. So, I say, Okay, I am not going to pay for your drugs, you take care of that. But then I go there, and I pay for all the other stuff. And somehow, I guess that she sorts of pushed that out of her mind. But you know, they are upset. They are upset- 50:21 SM: Yeah, that organization disappointed a lot of people. And the ramifications on this are pretty substantially are pretty substantial because I believe the concept of trust, again, the faith within an organization, within a generation, and particularly if you know, the boomers and they question that either that either they will never join, or they will eventually join, but then revamp the philosophy and the leadership and the whole kinds of policies, and you know, and they may do it, because, I have one more question. All right. And then I have just some names that I want to ask you real fast. The last basic question is about referring to a couple of times as the concept of empowerment. We had Tom Hayden on our campus this past year, and Tom came into meet with our students before his lecture. It was a we have what we call active state. WC you and yours truly. Yeah. And we have had the Berrigans there. And we actually have Holly Near come in, the singer, and Randy Shaw from San Francisco works in the tenderloin, really good people who devote their lives to others. But Tom came in and sat down with the leaders of student government who were at the dinner and he said that you, you realize, I like to ask you, what does student power mean to you. And this is Tom Hayden. And student government of Westchester University, said, Well, we have we have power, you know, we give money out to student organizations we, we give we, you know, we are part of the decision-making process with Dr. Adler assets, we are involved in a lot of things, you know, we hand out monies and so forth. Tom is sitting there, and it looks like he is getting No, I mean, I am talking about student power. Well, and then I remember why just we just told you. And so already the tension was forming within the room between these students and Tom Hayden, do you understand that you have real power, do you want me to explain what real power is? And I do not know if they really liked him in the end, he gave a great presentation that evening. But what I am getting at here is the concept of student empowerment, the belief that students, students voices, and students can have a say in just about anything. And to and, and, like Tom did, he used the philosophy what life was like when he was young. And he was he had just come off a fellowship up at Harvard. And he had the same issue with Harvard students. And he had a class with about 300 students. And he said, he talked about power with them. And he said, they just did not get it, but they were brilliant. 53:06 LD: It is a different kind of power. I mean, that's why it's what the students are interested in today as a result of their life of their lives. I mean, to them, power means different things. It is partly what they experience, it is partly the circumstances under which they are, you know, growing up, and it all came together in that boomer generation. And it's, the whole circumstances are so different. They have, you know, that was coming off a relatively affluent time. I mean, these students today, they are so into competition, they are so worried about making it and making it not just for not just for material things, but also making it in terms of getting, whether it's a job, a good job in social work, or, you know, it is just a whole different, you know, they have been shaped by a whole different environment, a whole, you know, different set of situations because they, from their point of view, again, their power, they, I do not even think that they really want to run the university. Truthfully, 54:27 SM: I thought, you know, I think at that magic moment there at that particular time, there was a dead silence for a minute. And I said, this is another generation gap. They did not understand what Tom was getting. And Tom was saying, he was talking about the world, the War on Terrorism, the whole issues out there. crime in the streets, do not you get it in? 54:51 LD: They do, but it is different. They find it as they can make a difference. Like in Habitat for Humanity. tea or they can, you know, our students, we have the highest proportion in SUNY who have an international experience. And our students, they really are want seeking that out, because they do realize that whether it is economic, environmental, social, whatever political, the problems these days, just like global, instantaneous communication, they the problems are global. So, they are focused in a different way. And part of it has to do you know, with growing up with mass media, instantaneous communication, and, I mean, it is just, I mean, we are a product of our times, I mean, I get so tired of my mother telling me how she had to drive the horse and buggy, you know, and that, that changes that, that, you know, the environment as well as your immediate, whether it's family and friends, and then the, you know, the conditions you are going into that affects you, you cannot escape it. You cannot recreate your generation. 56:17 SM: You cannot recreate it. But also, I think that there is a big difference here to understand that issues that we face in this world today are complex, the complexities when you look at the World, War on Terrorism, it is understanding cultures, but it is much more, it is got a historic link goes back, like really everything. And maybe and I am starting to sense that maybe today's students have one up on the boomers. And that is they sense the complexities. And whereas it oftentimes sometimes the boomers did not, it was the we are going to end the war. And that was like, that was our goal and, you know, means justify the answer. There is a lot of things here. 56:58 LD: You know I think it is true that with the instantaneous communication, and you know, been in their lives this generation. I mean, can you imagine, I mean, they experience the world in such different ways than I did or you did, I mean, such different ways. I mean, and they are so sophisticated, these little tiny kids. I mean, they know about other parts of the world, they know that technology, I mean, it blows me away these little tiny kids are just so smart. In different ways. 57:44 SM: Christopher is a wiz the computer man, he knows everything. It is just I am waffling him around. It is just a few, just some brief comments when I list these names. Tom Hayden, these are all people from the era. 58:03 LD: What do you want me to say? 58:04 SM: Just any, just your immediate reaction, one or two sentence description, your thoughts on them as people or their impact on society or 58:18 LD: Well Tom had an impact at that time. I think he is still trying to have an impact, but he has not found the right way to do it. I mean, he clearly had an impact. He was the leader. But it does not mean that leaders appropriate in a different setting and in a different time. 58:39 SM: Jane Fonda- 58:41 LD: Jane Fonda, I do not know I mean, she has had so many different lives. 58:52 SM: Did you know that she donated money to Harvard and did not I she? She endowed some sort of scholarship there but did not want to win? No, but 59:00 LD: I know I mean, she has gone through a variety of transformations I you know, I do not I do not fault her, I, I am I think that she has, she has been able to pursue many, you know, a wider range of opportunities than most people. Because you know, when she was married to Ted Turner, I mean both of them they did phenomenal. 59:41 SM: Everybody knows what people say the ultimate mistake was being a gun. SO now she will deal with that for the rest of her life. 59:53 LD: She just she is a person who is gone through many more transformations. I think- 1:00:01 SM: This is your interview. So, I just want to bring this into this and be away from the tape, but I know one of her best friends, Torie Osborn. We had her here for Activists Days. She wrote Coming to America, which is a gay story of gays in America, and she runs the Liberty foundation out of Los Angeles. And I am sitting with her at Activist Days three years ago, and I was saying, she knows Tom, can we help me get Tom to our campus? And she said, Well, I know Tom, he has, he had open heart surgeries he is not doing too well. And I said, Yeah, I know a lot of vets that admire him even though he was against the war, but they would really dislike Jane and I started talking about Jane, and she is sitting there, keeping very quiet and I thought she was just going to make a comment about her. She says, Well, I was Jane’s roommate for a year. I lived with Jane after she divorced Tom Hayden. Before she linked up with Ted Turner, and you got to know her. She is a lifetime of causes. And she is really sincere in what she does. And she has made enemies but, but so it was it was, it was, I guess, for me and for all students. It was an it was an experience of not judging someone unless- 1:01:16 LD: I do not judge her as harshly because she you think about her environment, and the way she was raised, and the kinds of influences to Hollywood-ish, all of that. I mean, I mean, it has got to have an impact on you. 1:01:35 SM: Her mother just tried to commit suicide? Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, these are just these are all personalities from the ‘60s. 1:01:46 LD: Well, you know, I think they have pretty much gone a very different direction. You know, I guess as a social scientist, I understand that people change, and people go in different ways. And I do not I do not hold it against people because of that. Because I think that what was most important is people being able to, to change. And you know, whether you like the way I changed or not, is not the issue, but people being able to, you know, develop and change and then having the opportunity to do it. So, I do not begrudge these people, some of them who have gone on, they have made money or they have gone into the establishment. I think that is a natural part of your life cycle. 1:02:45 SM: The concept of development, lifelong, lifelong learning. 1:02:50 LD: Yeah, I think it is phenomenal. 1:02:53 SM: Some of the political figures, John Kennedy- 1:02:56 LD: Well, you know, he was he embodied sort of the American dream and ideals even though he really did and he came along at a time when he had charisma and he could you know, he was able to mobile, you know, I think inspire and mobilize people because he had ideas he had charisma I think Bill Clinton too, think Bill Clinton you know around Bill Clinton in one was you know, a leader in higher ed and Bill is a charismatic brilliant guy just did not know how to control certain excesses in his life. 1:03:52 SM: Bobby Kennedy 1:03:57 LD: Well, I mean, I, I guess I would say the whole all of the Kennedy’s, he did not have the ability to be as inspirational I think as JFK. Maybe it's JFK had lived he wouldn't have been as inspirational. You know, that is an important question. 1:04:20 SM: His greatest moment was that Cuban Missile Crisis. Because he was a good counsel. For his brother. Robert McNamara- 1:04:30 LD: Oh, god that is really fascinating because his recent, he was certainly had he certainly personified you know, the sort of organizational big business you know, aggressive foreign policy person, but yet in recent years he has come around. I heard an interview with him on NPR A few years ago, he, he went back to Berkeley and he gave some lectures there, where he said that these were wrong decisions. And I, you know, he, he basically said that he did not have good information, they were wrong decisions. I was stunned. I mean, I am I do not know why I should be stunned because people, you know that, to me the mark of a bright you know, inquisitive person, is you look back and say, you know, I believed this or I had these attitudes, I did these actions. But you know, now that I am in a different set of circumstances, I look back at it, and I have a broader perspective. That was wrong, I should not have done it. I mean, to me, that's part of growing and developing. And he has come around and come straight out on all of this. 1:06:02 SM: I interviewed Paul Hendrickson, who wrote the book on McNamara. And actually, this is kind of private, but he, Mr. Hendrickson, almost had a nervous breakdown after that interview, because he had done so much research on doing that book, and he well its quite an experience. I interviewed him on a lot of things. Lyndon Johnson, 1:06:31 LD: Lyndon Johnson's the ultimate politicians, politician. Shrewd. I mean, I guess I admire him for his political acumen, even though I mean, he, he made some decisions that clearly were not, well, it is hard to say. I mean, he made them based on information he had. But he also made them based on the political situation. I guess, that you got the feeling that Lyndon Johnson, to some extent would do what it takes to get the political outcomes. And I do not know, it's hard with, with JFK and Robert Kennedy. You did not see that as obviously with them, but you did not have as long a time to observe it. 1:07:36 SM: Richard Nixon- 1:07:41 LD: Oh god, Well, he, I think he was a I mean, it is, obviously it is coming out more and more, I mean, he was a, you know, a narrow thinking paranoid guy who probably did not have he is willing to do whatever it took, but in a different sort of way. I mean, he basically was a sort of cold, not trusting and non-optimistic sort of guy. Compared I think, I think people like, you know, Lyndon Johnson and others certainly, were had, you know, they just had a different sort of personality. When I mean, some of the things you read or hear about Nixon, I mean, he must have been just not an easy person to be around. 1:08:42 SM: He was, this campus. The night he gave a Cambodia speech. This place erupted. And of course, there were I think two things he said. Arthur Levine told me about the number of college campus that were not even affected by the war was amazing the numbers. Yeah, but he, I think 270, I think the number was 272 schools were so affected by that Cambodian invasion- 1:09:10 LD: And that is out of over 3000. So, you know, it was pretty concentrated. 1:09:17 SM: Well they had here. They have the they have a concert here. The Grateful Dead. They performed here, right after the invasion. And I believe it was because I know I had tickets to the concert I broke my arm. So, I was in the hospital. And but the Grateful Dead concert was here. They were supposed to have the band concert and they were supposed to be within two to three days of each other in 1970. And it is historic right now because the Harper College concert is now you know, they have a they have a CD of that Harper College, which I have in my office and if I ever want to get a there is a- There is a tension there, but they consider one of the top three or four concerts in their history. Because that it was the gym. The West Gym, all the history and I happened right at the right here at this campus. A few more names and then we will be done, Timothy Leary. 1:10:20 LD: I think Timothy Leary was. I mean, he started what I guess I would call sort of a cult, a social movement. And he continued throughout his life. 1:10:34 SM: His ashes are in heaven, not in heaven. That was a Freudian slip. Dr. Benjamin Spock? 1:10:46 LD: Well, that is an interesting man who was influential in his, his specialty, and, you know, but yet, he, he, he was determined to be an activist leader outside of this field. And I do not think you find that anymore. Very much because our fields are so I mean, our fields have become so specialized and so demanding. But I think that there were people who use their status and their knowledge in one field to try to have transference to another. I think he did. 1:11:37 SM: How about the Berrigan brothers? Barragan brothers, Philip and Daniel. 1:11:40 LD: I sort of remember them. I do not remember a lot about them it seems. 1:11:46 SM: Daniel Ellsberg. 1:11:48 LD: You know, I have met him actually heard him talk. And I know one of my sociological colleagues had an affair with him. He, he was, he was a, he was more of an intellectual. And he, I think he saw a broader picture. And he, he took advantage of it. And I think we still have people who do that, where they are not maybe out on the frontlines, you know, doing things with others, but they are trying to expose, they are trying to bring situations to the forefront, whether it is nuclear or whatever, I see him in the same vein, as that, that there, that there is like scientists, like scientists for social responsibility, some groups like that. And I think that I think those groups are really important. There is also it is called Business Leaders for Fiscal Responsibility. And they are, there is some really big heads of some big corporations that are trying to, I guess, redirect more of our resources toward, you know, have a good safe mili- have a good sound military, but also try to also address some of our, you know, our social our health problems, our environmental problems, did you see it was in Sunday's New York Times? Where they said the cost today, it was a whole page on the editorial section. So, the cost today of the Iraq War 144 billion, and that that went on this side. Then it said, “What could that well, how could that money have been spent?” was on the other side- 1:14:05 SM: Can you imagine coming into education that money? 1:14:09 LD: Well they had college, they had education, they had an environment, they had drugs, they had elderly, they had homeless, they had HIV, and they showed how much you could tackle social and health and economic and, you know, environmental, 144 billion, and that is before this next allotment, and what they say that after, if Bush wins the election, he is going to come back for another 80 billion. But it was a you know, it was a whole page. To me, that's people like Ellsberg. They draw attention to some of the disjunctures in our society- 1:14:58 SM: Is he, you know that whole Pentagon Papers, Ellsberg that he is there, he is a direct link of why the Watergate happened. Because, you know, there was a leak, called Nixon call it a leak, you know, and leaks and so, so he so he is trying to go in Well, you know, history of Watergate. 1:15:18 SM: But you see we have some groups, we have some groups like that. I mean, they are they may not be quite as numerous or have quite the depth of the money with them. But you know, there are these business men for something rational priorities. There are, you know, these groups. Well, the so- the Physicians for Social Responsibility, there is a whole set of them that are still really and then then the major environmental groups. They are still out there. I mean. 1:16:04 SM: Physicians for Social Responsibility ended up with the Medal of Freedom Award in Philadelphia, about six years, six, seven years ago- 1:16:12 LD: Was under the Democrats. 1:16:13 SM: Right, right. Actually, Mayor Rendell was the mayor then. Huey Newton and Bobby Seale, the Black Panthers. 1:16:26 LD: Well, I have very mixed feelings. Yes, ma'am. We are just finishing. Yeah, I know. Okay, thanks. I mean, I have mixed feelings because of the intersection. I have read enough about sexism and racism. I mean, obviously, they, they took a different tack on the racism and fighting it. But also, I mean, apparently, they were not fighting for women. It was awful the things you read. I mean, they were I mean, I think in a social movement, you need people that are, you know, radical, reformist. And that was a part of that whole social movement, from, you know, the Martin Luther Kings- 1:17:12 SM: Yeah that is my next person. Martin Luther King and comparing him to these individuals. 1:17:18 LD: They serve different roles. Not all social movements. I think a current social movement would be different, particularly with the, you know, with the instantaneous, sort of world global communication. I think it would be different. 1:17:38 SM: Well I know you got your next appointment, but I'll try to end with Gloria Steinem, Muhammad Ali, and Spiro Agnew, quite a combination. 1:17:52 LD: Well, you know, I, Gloria Steinem. I mean, she was she and Bella Abzug and oh, what is her name? Betty Friedan. I mean, they were major figures in, in opening up rights and opportunities for women. Absolutely. I mean, obviously, they took, you know, they took different approaches. And, but god they really, they changed the lives. I mean, for me, even though I was all I was older, but they still I never would be a president, if they had not really, you know, pushed on, on, you know, major rights for women, owning a house. I mean, you know, women could not on their own get credit. If you were married, you could not readily sign up and just buy your own house. I mean, you could not, you just could not do a lot of stuff. You try. I remember trying to get I had an independent job. And I was trying to get a credit card and they said, well, we will give it in your husband's name, but not in yours. I mean, you know, so many things have changed, you know, whether it's no fault divorce, you know, community property. I mean, the whole range of opportunities and thinking about women in new ways. Spiro Agnew, I do not know. I mean, he was a, I do not know. 1:19:24 SM: And then Muhammad Ali. 1:19:27 LD: Well, you know, poor, I guess I see. The boxing world is a pretty awful world. And he tried to bring a sense of humanity to it. But I think that whole thing is a pretty awful, awful world. Pretty uncivilized part of our society. And this poor guy got swept up in it. 1:19:58 SM: There is more names, but I’ll end it with this one final question that is, if you, if you had a room of 100 boomers, and you were to ask them, what was the single event in your life that had the greatest impact on you when you were young? What do you think they would pick? You might try this sometime with the Alumni Association. 1:20:28 Well, you know, we have actually, and they, they say that it was the, I do not know of a single event, but they all talk about sitting around the social and political consciousness. And, you know, that even there in their classes, they spent a lot of time on, you know, sort of social, political, that's what they say, they say that that was, you know, it permeated their- you might say, their personal and their private in a way that I think, you know, today that most young people, they have sort of got their sort of professional, you might say, you know, their student, and they want to make sure they fill in all of the checks, the categories at the same time, then they sort of separate out the, the public and their private. And I think and what amazes me is to listen to them talk about how sort of their public and their private came together during this era. Then, when they thought of themselves, you know, that is making a difference doing these things, and they thought they just thought of their future and what their priorities were in the same way that you know, these broad, you might say public and, and national priorities, and you do not I know you get that separation today, you get the separation, and like, Oh, I am concerned maybe about Iraq but that but first and foremost, I do not have time, I have to worry about getting a double major, getting an internship, you know, so I think people have, you know, separated those more and more in in in succeeding generations. 1:22:33 SM: Very good. I thank you. I wanted to talk to you but I do not have time now. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Lois DeFleur https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fede0a88fbae261fdd4402e4e3643685.jpg 761a510afdf948368c0a38011b7c953c https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/68a3a8de9ed01c96e2bd008fba6e124e.mp3 bb7b1e5546e1164880a47ec97f4cd3fa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 11 August 2011 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Pat Reuss Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:50:29 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Communities; University of California; University life; 1960s; 1970s; Ronald Reagan; Women rights; Generations; Society; Baby boomers; Protests; Civil Rights. Biographical Text Pat Reuss is a longtime feminist with many leadership roles, both nationally and locally including the National Organization of Women. She is currently Acting Vice President for the Virginia NOW State Officers. Among the leadership positions, she has served: NOW Senior Policy Analyst-2002-present; Head of the Legal Defense and Education Fund-NOW; Legislative Director for the Women's Equity League NOW-1986-1990; Former Washington, DC NOW Office Director; President, Women's Equity Action League-1979-1980. Reuss played a major role as organizer of the National Task Force To End Sexual and Domestic Violence which was instrumental in passing the 1994 Violence Against Women Act.   Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pat Reuss https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/df9edd0945268ba518dba0a04e06737a.jpg 9ba326a76f28ccbc41e7eaa175e233a3 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4d971c1d49ee7c5d3fa1b6de545ed6ca.mp3 ca1b13de66ce0321a05cf1adf0c5a7b1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Paul Stoller Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:29:19 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: McKiernan Interviews, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Transcribe This Item Daniel Berrigan.mp3 Prev Item Next Item Edit View Public Page Delete Public: No Featured: No Collection McKiernan Interviews File Metadata Daniel Berrigan.mp3 Output Formats atom csv dcmes-xml json omeka-xml Bibliographic Citation “Daniel Berrigan,” Digital Collections, accessed October 12, 2020, https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/admin/items/show/1904. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Dr. Paul Stoller is a a professor of Anthropology at West Chester University in Pennsylvania. He has been concussing anthropological research for 30 years. His early work concerned the religion of the Songhay people who live in the Republic of Niger and Mali in West Africa. Since 1992, Stoller pursued studies of West African immigrants in New York City. Stoller's work has resulted in the publication of 11 books. In 1994 he was awarded the prestigious Guggenheim fellowship. In 2013, he was awarded the Anders Retguis Gold Medal in Anthropology. Stoller lectures all over the world and has appeared on NPR as well as the National Geographic Network. Keywords Baby Boomer; Generations; Revolutionary; 1960s; Women's Liberation Movement; Race problems; Social change; Vietnam War; Vietnam memorial; Healing; Lyndon Johnson; John F. Kennedy; Protests. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Paul Stoller