90 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5fee99b328a1db5e147a7b94f2eba928.mp3 34eb024bb12e420a71df5952d4808711 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 16 April 2014 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Leslie Cody and Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ridwan Zebari Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 46:11 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio audio Biographical Text <span>Being part of the Zebari tribe, Ridwan has 8 sisters and 7 brothers. In 1991, he fled to an Iranian refugee camp on foot. He came to the States after marrying a Kurdish refugee who arrived later in 1996. Ridwan earned a Law degree in Kurdistan and received his master's degree in law from Syracuse University. He is an active member of the Kurdish community.</span> Keywords Kudistan; Kurdish Culture; Kurdish Diaspora; Religion; Iraqi Shia; Assimilation; European Kurdish Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Ridwan Zebari Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen and Leslie Cody Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 16 April 2014 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 AD: You are going to talk some good stuff. Okay, but I am going to ask you to sign it again, Ridwan, it is just a, oh see, if you are a lawyer, you read things before you sign it. 0:14 RZ: Yeah, you have to. 0:18 AD: That is right. 0:24 RZ: Why you want to do it, I have already done that. 0:48 AD: I know, the first time, but we are doing the second interview. 0:50 RZ: I do not have anything else to add. [laughs] 0:56 AD: No? 0:57 RZ: I said everything. 0:59 AD: Okay, here is the thing; As I am doing this project, Ridwan I am learning and I realized a lot of differences between countries, so now the questions will be very specific gear to Iraqi Kurds, because when I was first time talking to you it was more like in general and I had this image of Kurds from Turkey and there is a quite a big difference between like- 1:32 RZ: Yeah, you could say that. 1:35 AD: So, having said that as you know in Turkey because of the republic, the main, the approach toward the minority was like assimilating them, but in Iraq, thing like little different like I am not going far back I am just taking after the World War II especially like the constitution of 1958 with that constitution the Arabs and Kurds like all, according to the constitution they were considered associates in Iraq, right? 2:28 RZ: Yeah, that is true. 2:31 AD: See, if you are especially interviewing with a lawyer. 2:34 RZ: Yeah, you mean that you came to the implication it is different. 2:40 AD: So that is my question. 2:44 RZ: That part has never been applied it is just ink in the paper, on the paper. 2:51 AD: So, my question was even though the constitution stated that in reality were Arabs and Kurds partner in the nation. 3:04 RZ: This was the constitution said, yeah. 3:07 AD: But was it the reality? 3:09 RZ: No, it is not, it was too far from that, yeah. 3:12 AD: Okay. 3:12 RZ: What they called, there are new Kurds in the government like minister or, the government established some, some institutes like they call autonomous areas legislative and executive branches, but the government, the regime let us say they put in that branches their people and their men and whoever they wanted not elective people from let us say common people, no they put their friends. 4:07 AD: But Arabs not Kurds. 4:09 RZ: No Kurds, they had to be Kurds, but the Kurds that who they wanted to not anybody that wanted to candidate himself with let us say be elected by people, no. They put some people. 4:28 AD: They pick the nominees. 4:30 RZ: Yeah, they put whatever they want. 4:32 AD: So, it was not very democratic? 4:39 RZ: Not very, there was no democratic. 4:40 AD: No democracy. 4:41 RZ: Nothing, yeah. 4:42 AD: So, could we say that there was a cultural autonomy, or the Kurds had a cultural autonomy, 4:47 RZ: No, not even cultural actually, 4:49 AD: Not even cultural. 4:50 RZ: No, because they even did not let Kurds to educate in their language let us say in the school educational institutions they did not let Kurds study their language, in some cities Yeah they did but the people demonstrate and they opposed the government and they let them have some Kurdish schools in some cities; some big cities like in Erbil and Sulaimania, but in other areas even the education was in Arabic. 5:33 AD: In Arabic? 5:34 RZ: Yeah. 5:34 AD: That is important because I am specifically looking at those revolts and uprising to get some power you know like power relations within the Iraqi government so in what ways, for example you just said in Sulaimaniya and Erbil they revolted to get Kurdish Education and you said they got it. 6:01 RZ: Yeah, they had some Kurdish School, not all of them but some of schools and there was one Kurdish language class at university and that is it. 6:16 AD: And that is it. 6:19 LC: Like in what ways did they had uprisings? 6:25 RZ: What uprising? 6:26 LC: Like as far as revolting like education and stuff, like how did they get that? 6:34 RZ: Yeah, actually it was not like, the government I mean they did not give anything until they saw that the people were really serious, they are opposing the government policy, so they said let us give them some sort of autonomy like in education, in administration. 7:01 AD: Was something like let us shut them off, just a little bit. 7:04 RZ: Yeah, just keep them quiet, give them something they will be quiet. 7:08 AD: because there is like no political gain with that, right. 7:11 RZ: No, it was just- 7:14 AD: Politically Kurds did not have any power, is that what you are saying? 7:18 RZ: Yeah exactly, they did not have, they did not have anything. It was just something some sort of what they call administrative autonomy, they had local mayors even governor, but it does not necessarily mean that had to be Kurdish governor in the Kurdish city or Kurdish mayor, no but usually they were, but sometimes government transfer them to other place like in the south. 8:08 AD: Because the government, we all know Saddam’s government, I mean personally call a fascist government, so some sources said that there oppression even against Arabs, would you agree with that? 8:32 RZ: Yeah, there was against Shiite. 8:37 AD: But they are also considered religious minority in Iraq, right? 8:42 RZ: Actually, there are not minority, they are majority of the Arab, yeah. I mean speaking of Arab nation, yeah, they are the majority Arab in Iraq, but they were not in power, Sunnis were in power, Saddam and his group, so they, what they call, they killed Shiite too. Because they thought that Shiite more is related to Iran and closer to Iran especially in 1980s there was a war between Iran and Iraq so Saddam was thinking Shiite helping Iran in this regard and religious men did not make a fatwa against Iran, because some other scholars they made fatwa that fighting Iran is Jihad or Halal but Shiite did not do that, so they killed some other Shiites like al-Hakeem, I think and Sadr. Yeah. 10:09 AD: So, they were mistreated just like Kurds you would say. 10:13 RZ: Not like Kurds but- 10:16 AD: Not as much but? 10:18 RZ: Because they were not like Kurds, they were not opposing the government, there were some heads of Shiite they opposed the government but common people they did not do, they were like Iraqi citizens, they did not do like what Kurdish did, that way. 10:40 AD: What did Kurdish do? 10:44 RZ: They did a lot. They were not accepting the regime’s policy I mean whatever regime said they did not accept it. Especially Kurds were in the mountain, I mean it is easier for them to fight with the government and hide in the mountains, yeah it was easier for them, but for Shiite in dessert. 11:15 AD: Okay, so all that started in recent history we are talking about, we are not going back to Ottoman period because- 12:29 RZ: When you go back to far to Ottoman or during the British colonialism in the Arab countries be there was, the people who governed the country were not Arabs, say the people during the Ottoman empire belonged to Ottoman empire not Arabs, even they were Arabs but they were not Arab nationalism, they belonged to another bigger thing, Ottoman Empire. Same thing during the Britain colonialization; it was Britain taking care of everything but not Arabs, even in that time Kurds had a special opinion or special situation but I mean what happened after 1960s and (19)70s. 12:58 AD: Starting this constitution and all of that- 13:06 RZ: Yeah, after the, especially after the Baath party came to power, they started doing whatever they did against the Kurds and other nations. 13:18 AD: Is that constitution created during that Party, Baath Party time? 13:21 RZ: No actually before the Baath party, but it did not take long before the Baath party came to power. 13:24 AD: It is after Abdul-Kareem Qasim? 13:25 RZ: Yeah, Abdul-Kareem Qasim, he came to power in 1958. 13:29 AD: So how do you consider him? 13:34 RZ: I do not know much about him because it was, yeah, I read something about him in the history or I heard something from other people, fathers and grandfather. He was not that bad like Saddam, other people came after him, he was in the beginning of the republic, before that it was kingdom; Iraqi Kingdom, but after that Iraq became republic, and he was the first president, he was better than Saddam, let us say. Yeah. 14:25 AD – Okay, uh. 14:25 LC: We pretty much covered all this. 14:27 RZ: Sorry. 14:38 AD: Yeah because you said the language was Arabic in school. 14:42 LC: We should talk about the diaspora. 14:49 AD: Okay, now, I am going to ask you something about Diaspora. 14:54 RZ: Go ahead. 14:55 AD: Because currently there is not really, well not yet let me put it that way, there is not much about Kurdish Diaspora in the United States but there is a lot of work done in Europe from either Iraq or Iran or Turkey Kurds relocated to various European countries and their experiences over there, so now I am gonna read something to you. I know this guy I talked to him via email. He is from Turkey, and he has been living in Sweden for more than 25 years now. So, this is what he said about Sweden, he says: “When I came to Sweden, I liked this country a lot and I wanted to adopt it. I saw Sweden as my second homeland. Now I see myself as a Kurd, I see myself neither as a Swedish nor as an immigrant but as a Kurd who wants and wishes to go back. I do not feel any belonging to Sweden. I tried so much to make them as equal, but it did not work. Still after ten years they ask you where are from, do you miss your homeland, do you like Sweden. Now I know that whatever I do, I am net being accepted as an equal.” So, have long have you been in the United States Ridwan? 16:56 RZ: Six years. 16:57 AD: Six years. Okay, do you have similar sentiments like this guy like as a Kurd living in America? 17:11 RZ: I think this is his opinion, I do not think each Kurd feel the same way like he does in Sweden and everywhere. It does not mean that we came to here in America or any other country that we came here we want to live here forever. Everybody has something he wants to another country either, I mean some people wants to go and get better education, some people wants to go get a better job and better life. Some people I mean they run away from the political situation in the country because they have different political view, they belong to certain political party. They run away from the regime’s policy; I mean everybody has different reasons. 18:40 AD: But do you think your Kurdish identity is coming out in the society or people do not care where are you from, I mean in general what are your sentiments, do the people keep asking you those questions? 19:04 RZ: I think nowadays these are something you have to be worried about them much. I think human is getting like international identities right now. You live here today, your job is here, your work is here, tomorrow you may go some other country, you live there, you work there. I mean you do not have a clear identity; you do not care about identity as much as you care about wherever you feel comfortable, you get your life. Yeah, I think humans getting global identity more than, what they call a small global identity. Yeah that is my opinion. 20:11 AD: So, you do not feel like the otherness, like you are other. In here do you feel that do you feel like there is some kind of negativity attached? 20:29 RZ: I do not see anything like that here in America actually. I heard people like they are complaining in Europe and other countries but here I have not seen anything. 20:42 AD: You do not see that- 20:44 RZ: I do not see any difference between me and somebody that lived here and born here grew up here, the difference only, I mean, is personal. 21:02 AD: I mean there are some racist people everywhere in this world no matter you go but we are like dwelling on natural attitude of people here. 21:15 RZ: I have not experienced anything like that actually. I feel very comfortable here in this country. 21:34 AD: Okay. 21:34 LC: So, Ridwan do you feel like you, your family and like the other Kurdish people around here have not maintained their like Kurdish traditions and to what extent have they? Now that you are living here. 21:57 RZ: In our family actually they say, we do not feel like we are in a problem with our culture or with our identity. I do not see the situation that way. We still practice our cultural issue our cultural matter. There is not to concern about in this regard. And nowadays it is, in this like you have many ways to maintain your culture, your identity; you have internet, you can, I mean talk with your family, yeah on skype we see everything. This new world you will not lose anything if you want, unless if you do not care about it, just go I mean whatever you see, but if you wanna, you have many ways to do whatever you want. Now I could know much about every other culture not only my culture. When you check internet, you find anything you want, and yeah there are many say Kurdish channels, TV channels you could watch them, all day long. I think if you really want, you will not lose anything, you will be just like, not exactly like, but like other people live in Kurdistan. 24:07 AD: But then you have children, and they are, they were born here, and they will grow up here and so do you think things will take another turn for them a little bit. 24:24 RZ: I am not saying that they will be the same as we are right, no. But if they really want to, they will be good too. I mean their parents must tell them where they came from and how they came here and tell them a little about their culture. I think they will find their way to explore more about their culture and identity. 24:57 AD: So what do you observe, I am not talking about you; your kids are very young, when you look at local community members, Kurdish members and some probably they had their kids or the kids came in a very young age may be they are teenagers now, like do you see an influence like, are they like very Kurdish or do you see like American effect on them? 25:32 RZ: Not all of them, no, some of them yeah, they are like other people live here, like American, but not all of them, but even those who are go in a wrong direction they still have opportunity they could come back look other people do, their Kurdish friend what they do, what they belong to. 26:12 AD: How about, do you have any American friends or your wife? I am not talking about colleague at work, you know everybody has a colleague but do you have an American friend like you hang out with? 26:28 RZ: I personally do not have any American friend but my wife does actually, she does have. But I think it is not easy here to find a friend like a really close friend. I mean friends usually come from work or education, school somewhere, when you are done with your work or your school, your friendship gets less and less, I think. But my experience now six years, I do not know but I think American like that much friendship even with each other, they go what their job require, sometime they stay a little bit longer after they are done with their job but I mean in our country it is different. Friendship is different, and it is not associated with job or school. I mean, I still have friend we talk to each other often, I mean we have very close friendship even we have not worked together or we have not been ins school, but we know each other and we still know each other and have a good friendship, but here I do not see that way, here I think friendship come from either you work together or you have been at school together, may be after school a little longer then you forget each other, do not you think. 28:40 AD: Yeah, I agree with you, and I do not, it is not even Kurdishness it is I think geographically where we are coming from, there is like our ties is stronger, social ties. But this is a capitalist society and that is the end results. 29:01 RZ: I am not saying it is something bad or good but that is how it looks like, maybe here is better than we do. I mean you never know you the future this will be better. 29:18 AD: That is different, but like let us say your kids grew up, do you mind if they marry an American or what I mean American, could be anybody and could be Muslim from Pakistan or Turkey or whatever you know because there are issues; there is religious issue. 29:48 RZ: I know what you mean. 29:50 AD: Do you mind if someone? 29:52 RZ: I will try to tell them who we are and how we have to be, then if they decide to choose a different way, you do not have to force them to change that- 30:07 AD: But you are not gonna disown them like because they do not marry a Kurdish person from Iraq? 30:14 RZ: No, I would not do that I personally would not do that; I will tell them the reality, I mean the reality that we want, that we want to be. 20:26 AD: Your wish. 30:27 RZ: Yeah, but if they choose a different way, it is their choice I cannot force them. 30:32 AD: But in general, when you look at this society it is pretty conservative, right? Like what I- 30:39 RZ: Things are changing right now. 30:41 AD: It is changing. 30:42 RZ: Yeah, it is changing. Very widely change not like, I mean since let us say 19th century, I mean this twenty year it has changes more than a century before. Twenty years I mean from 1991 until now has changed a lot, not only in Kurdistan in I mean all other countries. 31:25 AD: Oh Yeah, in Turkey too. Did we cover all of these? Yeah, definitely, definitely. So, we asked all those questions because I have the other interview, but this was like very specific gear to Iraqi society. 31:48 LC: And this is not necessary. 31:49 AD: No-no. 31:50 LC: And I do not know. 31:51 AD - Well we kind of talked, things have changed that is what he just said, but you are, what I see like over these interviews, the ones I have been part of it or the ones that I did not participate that Leslie transcribed and I listen but come out is the Kurdishness, you know the Kurdish identity and I think this all goes back to history because especially really Ridwan in Turkey, you know they were not recognized and so many Turks have been assimilated into society and they even forget about their Kurdish identity and what is, did you have to, that is the other thing, did you have to hid your identity while you are living in Iraq, let us say you are in Baghdad for business or where did you go to university? 33:07 RZ: Erbil. 33:08 AD: So, but did you have to live in Baghdad, I do not remember you told me all that but- 33:13 RZ: I have never seen Baghdad not even- 33:15 AD: I mean did you live outside the so-called northern Kurdistan? 33:19 RZ: I know what do you say, I mean it was easy before, let us say after 1980, it was not easy for Kurds to go or to live or to buy a land or a property in let us say from the Arabs cities, it was not like. 33:52 AD: After Saddam took power. 34:09 RZ: Yeah After Saddam and after some year passed in his ruling, it was not easy for Kurds to go to live or to, it was easier to visit, but to live in another city that majority were Arab, it was not easy. Not even easy to go for an education. 34:29 AD: So that is why… Like for minorities there is actually not just Kurds like being minority in Europe or any other country like hiding minority you pretty much negotiate your identity, so you did not have that kind experience I gather. 34:55 RZ: I think if you are the minority, I think you wanna show your identity more when you are the majority. I think that, maybe it is not right. 35:08 AD: That you could not do it in Turkey. 35:09 RZ: but unless if there are some restrictions that you are afraid, they might make fun of you say I belong to this special group, but if there is no restriction and there is no exclusion, you prefer to show your identity. I mean their certain group Kurdish or Turkish or whatever. That is what I am thinking. I think when you think let us say you are in danger or you are dangerous situation to lose your identity, you try to show your identity more than if you among all of your own peer, your own group members, you do not care what your identity, but if you are a minority within the majority then you try to show your identity. 36:20 AD: so that is interesting to me I never heard that before because not, yes in a dangerous situation, that is correct, but also economic and political I have seen or read many examples that people do not bring or did not, not do not I should use past. Did not bring their minority identity forward or even social because they wanted to be accepted socially otherwise you get be exclude from the community or let us say you want to do business, if you bring your minority identity out strongly, then you will not make money, but you will be pushed out. 37:08 RZ: I think if you look at, in business let us say economic way it is different, when you want to, yes you could say that this is one of the restrictions because you want to get some sort of benefit that is why you do not want to show your identity. But in normal situation that there is no risk on that you will show your identity, why not? 37:43 AD: Of course, no you shouldn’t have to hid your identity Ridwan, that is how I feel, but that is not how it has been, you know unfortunately that has been the case and that is still the case in so many other countries. 37:58 RZ: I said unless there is some sort of- I mean restriction of some sort of shame when you I belong to that certain group or the group that you belong to is not accepted by other people then you will try not show your identity. Yeah, this is true. 38:28 AD: I mean what I am saying this it is even happening in the United States maybe you can, I mean you are an American like let us say you have some African American heritage, but you appear like me, I am not saying like you because you are really fair complected. So, if you do not bring that out, I witnessed because I lived in deep south for 10 years, you do not come and say, oh you what legally, and those people are legally black, when you go mark your race, and you know what they never talk about it. I mean forget about me, Middle East, Europe, we are talking about the United States because blacks are the minority in the country and that is still continuing you hid to be accepted, because then you say oh she is white, I mean not blonde hair blue eyes, but you are still considered white. I have seen this so. I witnessed, I witnessed. 39:43 RZ: It is true, but I am talking about the normal situation. If something in your benefit when you hide your identity then you will hide, if there is, but I am talking about the normal situation. I do not know I personally prefer that to show my identity to others. 40:09 AD: That is how should be, but unfortunately. But you did not experience that either? Wherever you lived your life experience, you did not have to deal with that. That is what I am asking, like did you have any experience like that wherever you lived. 40:28 RZ: Not here no, not in the United States. 40:33 AD: Not in Iraq? 40:34 RZ: In Iraq, yeah it was, I mean many people they hid their identity during the Baath regime. Yes, that happened. But I am talking about here actually. 40:54 AD: Not here, I was like speaking about homeland. 40:58 RZ: Yeah, there were some people they did hid their identity even some people they marked in the official documents themselves as Arabs. 41:22 AD: So, they were even lying. 41:23 RZ: Yeah, not because they wanted to, but if they wouldn’t have done that they would have treated in some different way. They might have lost some opportunity of a job or an education or something, so they prefer to- 41:50 AD: Okay, that is what I was asking about, I was refereeing actually to homeland- 41:54 RZ: But this is not something they wanted to, they did that because of the situation, otherwise they would have lost something, but many people refuse that and they lose the opportunities but they did. 42:25 AD: But here it is different, in America, you say you do not have to- 42:33 RZ: Yes, here is different because I mean everybody is equal in front of the law there is no pressure on you to hide your identity and nobody asks you to do that I mean, and if you did not do that you will lose something or you did not get benefit, no you are free. 43:05 AD: Well but there is this negativity toward Islam also in this country, maybe not toward Kurds, probably they even they do not know what Kurds to be frank with you after this 9/11 you know there is this negative sentiment toward Islam all though as a man it wouldn’t really affect you but if you are covering your head then you are exposed completely that you are Muslim. 43:39 RZ: Not everywhere, but in some places, it is true. Like in airports let us say if you have scarf on or if they know you are Muslim, may be they will look at you in different way but in other places I do not see anything like that, like when you apply to a job or to a school or something, I mean any other place but in security, I mean talking about security they will sometime- 44:18 AD: When you are going through passport control for example. 44:23 RZ: Yeah when you go through what they call the metal detector, Yeah, they will probably look at you and, I mean they will keep an eye on you. But in other places, I do not see, and I do not blame them actually that, in the security issues, that is how they keep this country safe and out of any terrorist attack. 44:53 AD: Yes, exactly and then even this, what. It was the anniversary yesterday the Boston Marathon, even those guys came from Daghistan, from former Soviet Russia and they are Muslim too. The picture is getting more and more negative; it is like… you know what I mean. 45:21 RZ: Unfortunately, that is true, that is how I mean we do not have to blame them; we have to blame ourselves first. That is what some Muslims do, some of them. 45:36 AD: Yeah, who are extremist, 45:38 RZ: Yeah, but it is a small group, but they do in the name of Islam, so. 45:46 AD: Jihad, right? 45:47 RZ: Yeah, I mean whatever they call it. It is happening. 45:52 AD: I think I covered everything, right? Do we have any questions? 46:00 LC: We covered everything. 46:02 AD: We covered everything. Is there anything you want to add Ridwan? 46:07 RZ: No. 46:08 AD: No? That is good. So- 46:10 RZ: I did not come for this actually. [laughs] (End of interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ridwan Zebari Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1bb025971bbe1fe133c088980ab91587.jpg 5fa9658b75f35ba089ac15af29de9b1b https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8c88eb894f70071cc1591da72d8a968f.mp3 acbba5227040ef65fb669010373df51f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-12-03 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Edgar, 1943-2013 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Robert William Edgar (1943-2013) was a businessman, administrator and politician. Edgar was a member of the Democratic Party and congressman in Pennsylvania for 6 terms. He received his Bachelor's degree from Lycoming College in Williamsport, Pennsylvania, and a Master of Divinity degree from the Theological School of Drew University in Madison, New Jersey. Edgar died from a heart attack after running on the treadmill at his home.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Robert William Edgar (1943-2013) was a businessman, administrator, and politician. Edgar was a member of the Democratic Party and congressman in Pennsylvania for 6 terms. He received his Bachelor's degree from Lycoming College in Williamsport, Pennsylvania, and a Master of Divinity degree from the Theological School of Drew University in Madison, New Jersey. Edgar died from a heart attack after running on the treadmill at his home.</span> Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Religion; Bishop Fulton J. Sheen; National Council Churches; Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Environment; Poverty; Televangelist; Ronald Reagan; Brown v. Board of Education; Baby boom generation; Fox News; MSNBC; Pete McCloskey; Anti-War Movement.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13689059}}">Religion; Bishop Fulton J. Sheen; National Council Churches; Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Environment; Poverty; Televangelist; Ronald Reagan; Brown v. Board of Education; Baby boom generation; Fox News; MSNBC; Pete McCloskey; Anti-War Movement.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 137:41 Subject LCSH Legislators—United States--Pennsylvania; Democratic Party (Pa.); Edgar, Robert, 1943-2013--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Robert William Edgar Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 3 December 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:01): Thank you very much for agreeing to be part of this. The interview itself includes questions that have been asked to all people, but there are also some specific questions that have been geared toward your life as well. How did you become who you are? Could you describe your upbringing, your high school and college years, and maybe some of the role models and or historic figures you read about that inspired you? BE (00:00:31): I am glad I gave you a copy of my book so you can find out all the details because the book is more of a biography of how I have done what I have done. As you know, I have been a United Methodist minister. I have been a congressman. I have been a faculty member at Swarthmore College. I ran a finance area for Senator Paul Simon of Illinois when he ran for president. I was head of the Committee for National Security under Paul Warnke, who negotiated the SALT II agreement. I spent 10 years as president of a graduate school. I spent seven and a half years as head of the National Council of Churches. And now I have been three years as president of Common Cause. All of my vocational life in all those different professions have centered around my mantra, which I have kind of rephrased in the last couple of years. But it is to address fear, fundamentalism, and Fox News with a commitment to peace, poverty, and planet Earth. My wife of 46 years, who I have known for 52 years, will tell you I only have one speech and a thousand illustrations, focused on ending the poverty that kills, healing the earth, and working on peace and nonviolence issues. Now, you asked the question, how'd I get started? I grew up in a blue-collar family, in a white-collar community. I grew up in suburban Philadelphia. While we were in a lower economic bracket than our neighbors and friends, my father never owned an automobile, never drove a car. I taught my mother how to drive when she was 48 years old. We did everything on buses and trolleys between Philadelphia, upper Darby, Chester, Media, communities around Philadelphia. We were, my brother and I, my older brother, we were sent to church so that my mother and father could sleep in on Sunday mornings. And I went to Sunday school and church services in the Methodist Church. And in those days, which was in the 1950s, there were an awful lot of progressive ministers who were linking gospel messages to civil rights, human rights, people's rights. When I became 15, 16, I went to a church camp, and I discovered some ministers that taught me that ministers do not have to be boring, that they can be committed to social justice. I also took a tour of some poverty areas in Philadelphia and was surprised by my reaction to seeing poor people. In June of 1968, the Methodist Church sent me to 11 countries in Europe... not (19)68, in 1961, they sent me to 11 countries, including Italy, Germany, Austria, France, but I also got in behind the Iron Curtain in Czechoslovakia in the summer of 1961. And one of the most powerful experiences was in an orphanage that we visited in Naples, Italy. You had to travel by bus through a terrible slum, seeing the worst poverty you could see. And the bus went through a large, gated building, and inside were a couple hundred children who were orphans, all clean, all dressed, all cared for by faith-related folks, all singing and joyful. And so the contrast between the abject poverty on the outside of the building and the care that was given on the inside, had an impact on me. I had decided pretty early on to be a minister and thought that my whole life was going to be in the ministry. I wanted to be an urban minister, and in fact, that is the direction I went. A couple other incidents shaped my thinking. One was at age 19, I became pastor of my own church called the Gilberton United Methodist Church in Gilberton, Pennsylvania. This is June of 1962. I am all of 19, had never been to a funeral. I was given permission to do communion and baptisms and weddings, and most of it was to pay my way through college. After they had given churches to ordained elders in the Methodist church and retired ministers and seminary students, they had churches left over. And so as a young, beginning my second year in college, I was pastor of a church. And the interesting thing was, the church in Gilberton, the whole town was owned by the Gilberton Coal company. All of the parishioners were related to the coal mine. They owned only the inside of their houses. The coal company owned all the land underneath their houses. And it was a strip mining area. The men were all dying in their 50s of black lung disease. And even though the people were very poor, they were very loving and caring and adopted a young preacher, taught me a lot. So those kinds of experience began to move me. I would say another defining experience, which I do describe in the book, is in February of 1968, I was invited by William Sloane Coffin, who was at that time the chaplain at Yale, later to become a minister at Riverside Church in New York. But Bill Coffin invited a group of people concerned about the Vietnam War to a meeting here in Washington at the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church. And I boarded a bus in northern New Jersey where I was at seminary and traveled to Washington for the first time. And as we got to the door of the church, the bus came to the curb. The radical religious right of that day was a guy by the name of Carl McIntire, and he was out of Cape May, New Jersey. He was the Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Jim Dobson of that day. And he had organized a protest carrying signs that said, "Kill a commie for Christ's sake," and trying to get us not to cross his picket line. And as coming out of a blue-collar union family, I broke my father's dictum, never to cross a picket line, and went inside the church, went up into the balcony of the church, and listened to speaker after speaker connect the issue of poverty and war. And in doing that, I began to recalibrate my own thinking. And the keynote speaker was a young guy, 39 years of age, by the name of Dr. Martin Luther King. SM (00:08:48): Oh, my God. BE (00:08:48): This is five weeks before he was assassinated. And he inspired me. I think of myself as a disciple of Dr. King, read his material. Less than 10 years later, by accident, I got elected to the United States Congress. And a couple years after that, I was one of 12 members of the Select Committee on Assassinations, looking into the death of Dr. King. These books over here are all the documents on the committee that was researching the death of Dr. King and John F. Kennedy. So I interviewed James Earl Ray, the assassin, as a young member of Congress. So Dr. King, by accident, has had quite an impact. This just gives you the smallest. It is only those persons that were serving- SM (00:09:57): Walter [inaudible]. Yes. Remember him, and met him briefly in California. Yep. BE (00:10:02): Yep. Chris Dodd. Bob Edgar. So this is a long answer to your short question. I think poverty and King vaccinated me to care about ending the poverty that kills, connecting poverty to war. And it was my father who connected me to the environment. He loved the trees and the land that he worked so hard on. So he paid $13,000 for a house in the suburbs without the ability to have an automobile or car. He worked 37 years at the same desk, testing relays for General Electric. Died at age 56, probably killed by the chemicals he was using in the workplace or the fact that he smoked a lot. He was offered a million dollars for his piece of land to build a shopping center, and he turned them down because the trees on his land were more important and the environment. And he introduced me to the early books in the (19)60s, The Greening of America. Some of the early conversations about the environment. When I decided to run for Congress, I became kind of the environmental candidate. And if the Republicans had run any candidate against me who cared about the environment, or cared about women's issues, I would have lost, because my district was the most Republican district in the nation and I am a Democratic congressman. And I got elected at age 31, as you know. SM (00:11:56): Yep. When you were in that room with, I did not know you were in the room with Dr. King six weeks before he was assassinated, I am- BE (00:12:05): We also marched in Arlington Cemetery that same day together. SM (00:12:11): Wow. He touched your life, obviously, with his words, and obviously, he was a great preacher in his delivery and everything, but I interviewed another person whose husband was in Harvard when Dr. King came, or excuse me, Michigan State, when Dr. King came to speak, and he had said that it was the greatest experience he had ever had in his life listening to him. But I do not know if he is putting me on, but he said there was something about the aura and the atmosphere that he said, "I did not think this guy was going to live long." And that was a commentary from his Michigan State speech when this person was in college there. I do not know if you felt that at all, because he was certainly different in his... he had a lot of enemies. BE (00:13:09): At the time, I was not smart enough to think those thoughts. I was all eyes and ears. Except for the assassination of President Kennedy, I was lulled into thinking we were a peaceful nation, but if you look back on the assassination of Kennedy, King, Bobby Kennedy, and the attempt on Wallace's life, and you go back and look in history in terms of all the attempts on presidents' lives, you realize we are a pretty violent nation. I think there is an author that wrote a book, Violence in America, [inaudible] Demery. It was a very popular book in the (19)70s and talked about Native Americans and all the things that we had done to people itself. It is interesting, we are about the same age, and I think I mentioned to your secretary that my grandfather was a Methodist minister, Peekskill, New York, from (19)54... excuse me, from 1936 to 1954, and he died in (19)56. And then I went to Methodist Church in Cortland, New York growing up as a kid, and Dr. Nason was our minister. And it is interesting you said about social messages. My mom used to tell me a story that we would go to church, I do not remember this, but we would go to church and I used to say to her, "I wish they'd cut all the singing out," because all I cared about was hearing his message. And this is a second-, third-, fourth-grade kid. There were messages that he gave. So you were right on about the social messages. One of the things, when one talks about the (19)50s and (19)60s, one rarely talks about the religious leaders that influenced the Boomers growing up this. So when I look at religion, not just politics, religion itself, I think of Billy Graham, Norman Vincent Peale, Roy Rogers and Dale Evans, who were very religious, Bishop Sheen, who- SM (00:15:25): Happy trails to you. BE (00:15:25): But they were very religious too, and they had Christmas albums and they took in kids. Bishop Sheen was on TV then. And then, of course, Dr. King and Rabbi Heschel and Jesse Jackson, Reverend Schuller, Pat Roberson, these are people that I think influenced Boomers over... founding of the National Council of Churches was founded in 1950, was very much part of the Civil Rights Movement. Brown versus Board of Education. The National Council Churches had, I was General Secretary of the Council, but in 1957, had Dr. King as its keynote speaker. Had a lot of lay people, including there was a guy by the name of Jay Erwin Miller. He was a layperson, and in October, 1967, Esquire Magazine had a cover that says, "The man who ought to be the next President of the United States." He was head of Cummings Engine, which was a big industrial thing. He was a Republican. Also, he was chair of the board at the National Council of Churches. And he was one of the founders of Common Cause. He worked with John Gardner. There were three Republicans who were on the articles of incorporation. One was a guy by the name of Andrew [inaudible], who was head of Time Publishing, one was John Gardner and one was Jay Erwin Miller. SM (00:17:06): Yeah, I had Gardner [inaudible]. BE (00:17:06): You look at some of these pictures, Jay Erwin Miller is with Dr. King, in some of the signing of the Civil Rights Movement issues. And so there's a whole bunch of Republican, mainly, moderate Republican, Eisenhower Republicans, who began to speak up on civil rights, human rights, and people's rights, who were also people of faith. And I think it goes back to winning World War II. I am born in 1943, May 29th, Life or Look Magazine came out that week and had Rosie the Riveter on the cover, the woman who symbolized women working in factories to win the war. But the war is won, and the Congress passes the most important piece of legislation after the war, which was the GI Bill and- SM (00:18:22): (19)48. BE (00:18:28): -all of the blue-collar workers who went to war came back and became the white-collar workers of the (19)50s and (19)60s. Some of them became ministers, some of them became teachers, some of them became lawyers and doctors and other kinds of things. Sprawl started, people started to get wealthy from development of communities and suburbs expanded, people were moving out of the cities. Churches were being built, every few minutes a new church was being dedicated, and churches were packed. It was a sense of victory. We fought evil and we won. And every child will do better than their parents did. And their parents are doing better than their parents did. And the American dream is alive and well, and we had that sense. Brown versus Board of Education happens in (19)54. And some of the hostility of civil rights. And suddenly in the (19)60s, you have got not only the war in Vietnam, you have got the burning in the cities, you have got the tension around civil rights and human rights, you get the Commission on Poverty that comes out with a scathing report, that Johnson began the War on Poverty efforts. And I think the faith leaders had read the Bible thoughtfully enough to discover that God cares about poor people. I think some of the new religious leaders, the conservatives, have read the Bible and somehow did not find out that Jesus cared about poor people and misread all of those stories and somehow come out of the text believing God is a god of wealth, God is a god of prosperity. But the (19)50s and (19)60s, we were vaccinated by faith leaders who challenged government to respect people by race, regardless of creed or color and were willing, in a sense, to fight a civil war over it. And we did not go back to the battlefield with the South in terms of military war, but we did send in troops to make sure that schools were integrated and people who were part of our society became full partners. And Dr. King was kind of the disciple of that movement. SM (00:21:23): It leads into the area with I wanted to address, and that is these periods that Boomers have been alive. Keep in mind that those people born, say, between (19)37 and (19)45, I think are closer to the Boomer, the front-edge Boomers, that were born between (19)46 and (19)56 than those born between, Boomers, that are from (19)57 to say (19)64 because they were graduate students, they inspired, and were right by the side of many of the older Boomers. But when you look at the different periods in America since 1946, and we are talking 64 years here now, it was the first Boomers now coming into Social Security this year. You have already said something very important. When you look at church, and I can take the experience of my life, I love going to church, when every Sunday, all throughout the (19)50s, when in the (19)60s, then my dad moved and we were quite away from the church, but it was that period that I saw church attendants seemed to wane as we started to head into the (19)60s. And then something happened, like you mentioned, in the (19)70s, and I would like your thoughts on this. In the late (19)70s, the religious right seemed to come into power. Jerry Falwell, whether it be Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson. BE (00:22:57): Jim Bakker, Tammy Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart. What happened was that (19)50s and (19)60s were upward mobility, growing of the suburbs, challenge with racism, challenge with poverty, but a society that said, we have got to address these issues if we are going to be great. By the early (19)70s, parents were telling their kids, "Do not go into ministry, do not go into social service, get an education, go to college. Some of us got to college by the skin of our teeth, but you're smarter than we are, so get a degree so you can make money." And the prosperity gospel got caught in. And on the political side, you had the aftermath of Barry Goldwater's loss and the conservative political right. And then you had the emergence of religious conservatives who stayed out of politics mostly. Billy Graham stayed out mostly. And many of the evangelists were talking about personal salvation and not very interested in politics. But you get into the (19)70s, and alongside of the secular effort to make money, you had a whole bunch of what I call charlatan religious leaders who said, "Send us a dollar and we will pray for you. Put your hand on the radio set, and when we finish this prayer, write us a check for a dollar- SM (00:24:54): The Reverend Schuller? BE (00:24:57): -5 dollars, 10 dollars. And this is Jimmy Swaggart and Jimmy Bakker and those guys, the televangelists. They did not want the money as much as they wanted your name and address because they were smart enough to use computers and know that they could amass large amounts of wealth by putting those names and addresses on a computer and keeping track and talking to them by region and by area, and initially, putting a stamp on a newsletter and getting it out to folks, but then getting it into a computer, so it was even cheaper. SM (00:25:38): Like the DNC today. BE (00:25:39): Right. Well, I think in 1980, there was a civil marriage, probably started in (19)76, (19)77, (19)78, a civil marriage between these charlatan religious radical right and the political right that made Ronald Reagan the Christian president and Jimmy Carter an also-ran. Ronald Reagan would not go to church, but he was envisioned as being the guru. He was going to stop Roe versus Wade, which was an early (19)70s Supreme Court decision that all the conservatives hated. And the religious right and the political right out-hustled the left. The left took 50 minutes to answer a question. The left did not deep frame from the justice language. Whereas the religious right, the political right, were willing to sloganeer simple statements. And so the left gets out-hustled, and I think the religious right thought that if they had this civil marriage with the Republicans, that they would turn back Roe versus Wade. That they would be able to prosper in kind of not just the old-time religion, but focused on personal salvation. And the wealthy were blessed by God because they were wealthy, God must be blessing them. I think they forgot the passage that talks about how hard it is for a rich man to enter Heaven, where they said it is easier for a camel than go through the eye of a needle than for rich man to enter Heaven. And they saw Jesus in a tuxedo more than touching the hem of a prostitute, hem of the dress of a prostitute, or touching the leper or hugging a poor person. And so you have got this tension that I think has actually grown into the split in our country. We are divided three ways, radical Christian and political right on one side, moderate to progressive liberals on the other side, and a whole host of people that are in the middle. And the reason I wrote the book, Middle Church, which goes against... the reason I wrote that book was to go after Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and the religious right, but it is middle church, middle synagogue, middle mosque. And my argument in the book is that the religious left failed, and we failed because we would do point-counterpoint with the religious right, we forgot to evangelize the middle. And you have got a whole host of Americans in the middle who are too easily swayed by patriotism and false morality that many on the left have forgotten to use that patriotism and morality language. And that book could have been called Middle America, it is more of a secular political book than a churchy book, but it will give you some idea if you read it, of some of these thoughts. SM (00:29:50): But where would you place... we all know what the Beatles did. They went into, not organized religion, they went off to the Maharishi or whatever. It was fairly common that a lot of people were going off into Zen Buddhism. I interviewed Peter Coyote and he told me, the actor, that if it was not for Zen Buddhism, he would not be alive today. I mean, it's that important for him to relax. He's been doing it for 35 years. And so a lot of people became Zen Buddhist. A lot of people like the Beatles, and not just the Beatles, because they were well known, but other people, got into all these Maharishi, and they came to college campus in the late (19)60s. You had the Moonies that were everywhere. And there was this attitude, and correct me if I am wrong, that a lot of the Boomer kids and a lot of the young adults for some reason went against anything that were position of authority. They were against their political leaders, they were against their religious leaders, they were against politicians, the college administrators. So the inner spirituality became the thing in the late (19)60s, in the (19)70s. Your thoughts on this inner spirituality where you do not need to go to church, it's just that kind of- BE (00:31:14): I will answer that question, but let me challenge something you said. I would not use the phrase "a lot." I would use "some" because I think the majority did what their parents told them to do. Go to college, become something, get a profession. But the (19)60s and (19)70s are marked by a search, a search religiously, a search psychologically, a search for meaning, a search for life. And not only did folks search alternative religions, but they also searched alternative lifestyles, commune movement, and others. And you remember some of this came out of Woodstock, some of it came out of the anti-war movement, the draft was there, and people had to ask themselves, "Is the United States worth dying for? And if not, do I go to Canada? What do I think about 58,000 people being killed in Vietnam and hundreds of thousands being wounded? And what do I think, if I care about integration, about the fact that liberals were disappearing here and there, being killed and lynched and blacks were being attacked," and it was a big struggle for the identity of America. So there is not one issue, it was a small, important cluster. I remember when I got elected to Congress, some of my friends said, "Why would you do that? Why do not you stay on the outside of government and fight the corruption, fight the bad guys who are in government?" And those days, you know, had Watergate and you had a lot of lack of modeling of good behavior. And I think there was that tension in our society. My own personal view is that you need people inside the tent and people outside the tent, people inside government, people outside government. I have got five honorary doctorate degrees, but only four arrests for civil disobedience. If I have any regrets in my life, it is that I have not been arrested enough. SM (00:34:13): Dr. King would be proud of you because Dr. King used to always say that, "If you are not willing to go to jail for your beliefs, what are you out there for?" BE (00:34:20): Right. SM (00:34:21): Not doing violent things, but. BE (00:34:23): My friend Peter Yarrow of Peter, Paul, and Mary sings a song for me once in a while about, have you been to jail for justice? Good words in that song. SM (00:34:33): You are right. Right. One of the things, you well know that when President Kennedy, well, when he was running for president, the issue with the Catholic Church and that religion would influence his decisions. Obviously, that did not happen, but what did that say about the America of 1960, about fearful that the Pope was going to run the United States government, and. The Pope was going to run the United States government, and John Kennedy obviously saw the concern, but he said that is not going to happen with him. BE (00:35:11): Yeah. Well, like John Kennedy, I believe in the separation of church and state but not the separation of people of faith and institutions of government. You want your elected officials to have an active faith statement, but you need to always remember that you are not serving in public office a particular denomination or religious tradition. Henry Waxman, who is Jewish, was elected with me in 1974. I want him to be a faithful member of the Jewish community, but he would never intend to have the Jewish community make the United States a Jewish nation. I think it is true of Muslims who might serve in Congress. I want them to be faithful. I want them to read the Koran, but I do not want to have Sharia law be the law of the land. For conservative Protestants, I want them to be themselves. I do not have any animosity to people who are in the religious right unless that religious right once elected thinks that it can make this a Christian nation. Our founding fathers were very smart to help all of us understand this is a nation that believes in religious pluralism, and we want people of faith and people of no faith to use morals and values that grow out of their tradition, but not to ever allow any individual faith tradition to dominate. In our history, we used to hang people who were Roman Catholics, and we used to torture people who were a different kind of Protestant than we had. I think the founding fathers and mothers said, "Wait, that is not going to make us a very healthy nation, so let us respect everybody's religious tradition." SM (00:37:29): What is interesting is that we all know the founding of this country, and the people that come here are made up of people who left their homelands because of religious persecution in many cases. We all know that America is a xenophobic nation that is afraid of people who are different. It has been the whole history. I mean, the Irish. I was even educating my dad more about some of the things that happened between England and Ireland and the Potato Famine and so forth and the treatments. What amazes me today, I am very concerned about that, and I like your thoughts. Some of the attacks on President Obama, and some people say his close links with the Muslim faith. Some people say he is a Muslim. He says he is a Christian. They will not listen to his word. They have their personal opinions. It shoots me back to what was happening in 1960 about the fear of the Pope. Well, now there is a fear that Islam will take over. I know they use the issue of terrorism, but I see this continuing oftentimes a trend where- BE (00:38:38): Just remember that the kid that blew up the federal building in Oklahoma City was a Roman Catholic, raised in the United States. And if there are terrorists in 60 countries, we do not stop terrorism by bombing capitals. Part of our problem in this country is racism. Part of our problem is fear of the other, and part of our problem is we carry around in our head World War images of what war is about. I think some of the leaders that Obama has, many of the leaders that Bush had were focused on World War II images of the world, and we got to change that view. We need an international police effort on terrorism, but we ought to cut in half our military expenditures. I laugh when I read the newspapers with a tear in my eye when I think about all of the conservatives who say, "We have got to balance the budget, but you cannot cut defense. We have got to balance the budget, but we are going to go to war in Afghanistan and in Iraq without paying for it, without raising taxes." And we got these big deficits. "Oh, those deficits are caused by overspending on healthcare and education and Social Security." That is hogwash. We are in this predicament because we, after 9/11 were manipulated by Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bush on the issue of fear. We went after a nation that had nothing to do with 9/11 called Iraq. We went after it even though the inspectors were there. There was no hint that they actually had nuclear weapons, or nuclear capability. On the one hand, the political right and the religious right want more expenditures on defense, more expenditures for war, but somehow that does not impact on their thinking on deficits. SM (00:40:53): Do you see the link here? You're talking about the fear. Now. The fear in the (19)50s was the fear of the Cold War, the boomer generation when they were younger. The fear of the Cold War, of the potential- BE (00:41:11): The Cold War fear started this before the Boomers were elected. The fear of the Cold War grew out of separation of Germany right after World War II. The building of... Russia was a world-class military but a third-class country without the ability to really have an economy that worked. There were all these myths about the former Soviet Union, and I think people who lived through World War II saw it in terms of the exchange of nuclear weapons. I think by the time the boomers got here, and they were very small and children at the time, that fear not only got intensified with the East West struggles, but it also pointed out that even when you tore down the Berlin Wall, you had to find another enemy to be fearful of. So, I think Rumsfeld and Cheney were able to use 9/11 as a way of tapping into the fear that people have. My complaint about Americans is we are dumb. We do not learn from history. SM (00:42:34): We do not read history. BE (00:42:35): We do not read history. And we do not realize that we have got to send our young people to get an international education and not just a domestic education. SM (00:42:47): Global? Yeah. That is been the tough. We have to prepare students for the global world. I remember Henry Cisneros at a conference, way back in the early (19)90s. He was speaking from a Mayor I think of San Antonio. This beautiful college administrator stood up and said, "Well, what is America be going to be like if it is the majority are minorities?" It was shocking to hear it from her, but she was asking a question. I will never forget what he said. He said, "You should not be fearing the future. You should be preparing for the future, because you are going to have bosses who are Latino. You are going to have bosses who are Asian-American, from India, you name it. So we have to prepare students for the world they are going to face because it is a global world." You raised some good points. It is interesting also that McCarthyism, which was trying to label people who spoke up or were politically active as Communists. I see sometimes today for people who may support Muslims in America, they are sometimes paying a price, too. We did a conference, Islam in America, at Westchester University. It was my last coup before we left. We packed the place the entire day, and we brought in the spiritual leader from Detroit who had written a book, and we brought in two authors from New York and we did a tremendous program. It was nine straight programs. We had 400 for every session, and we got criticized for it. In fact, some of our professors went out to speak at other universities and they had people in the audience trying to, "Do you remember when you were at that conference?" That kind of stuff. BE (00:44:46): It is the same thing that is happening to Obama by calling him a Socialist and some of the Tea Party folks making him a Fascist. They do not know what a Fascist is. My own concern is that he is not socialist enough. SM (00:45:05): One of the things too, that I think it is important, when you think of the (19)60s and the (19)70s, and you think of the Boomer generation, and particularly the activists of that period who were anti-war, they were involved in all the movements. Many of them were the New Left, so they attacked liberals as well as conservatives because LBJ was a liberal, and he was running the war. Nixon, even though he was conservative- BE (00:45:33): They defeated Humphrey because Humphrey was not liberal enough. SM (00:45:37): Right. How we doing time wise? BE (00:45:41): I have got about 15 minutes and then I have got to close up. Sorry. I talk too much. SM (00:45:46): That is okay. When did the (19)60s begin, in your opinion, and when did it end? BE (00:45:56): It is a silly question. SM (00:45:56): It is a silly question? BE (00:45:56): I am pulling your leg. SM (00:45:56): Okay. BE (00:46:03): It began 1960. It ended 1969. I think the (19)60s, this is going to sound strange to you, but since you are talking about the boomers, I do not think the (19)60s had as much impact on the boomer generation than the 1970s had on them. I think the 1960s had more of an impact on my generation, those of use that were born in the late (19)30s and early (19)40s and came to adulthood in the (19)60s. And those of us... I was... In 1961, entered college (19)65, graduated from college, (19)68, graduated from graduate school June of (19)68, was full-time minister in city of Philadelphia, riding with the Philadelphia police clergy unit. I think that, starting with the assassination of President Kennedy, where we all were taught about guns in America and war and violence, plus the civil rights tension and the dogs and the fire hoses and that kind of thing, I think that had much more of a psychological impact on my generation. I think that the boomers coming were teenagers in the (19)60s, some of them. Early boomers. Some were tainted by the drug culture and LSD and that kind of thing. But most of them who got into adulthood in (19)71, (19)72, (19)73, where they were tainted, they were tainted by Watergate. They were tainted by prosperity gospel. They were tainted by some of the televangelist movements. They were tainted by money being God as opposed to God being God. And I think it led to the resurgence. They brought us Ronald Reagan, they brought us George Bush. They modified a little bit with Bill Clinton, but I think of President George Bush Jr. was not as impacted by my generation as he was by the... SM (00:49:03): 1960s. BE (00:49:05): Well, more of the 1970s. I think the late (19)60s, (19)70s part of that. So to answer your question, for me the 1960s have not ended. SM (00:49:21): You are not the only person who said that. BE (00:49:24): Okay. But it is diminishing in that it is smaller and smaller group of us who were impacted by the (19)60s. And I think the next generation is going to be modified by resource depletion. Dr. Jonas Salk spoke at a group of us in Congress before he died. He invented the polio vaccine. And he had a great lecture about what he called epoch A and epoch B. Epoch A for him was those that came after World War II. They are going to raise their kids, they are going to have more money, everything is going to get better. And epoch A was symbolized by consumption, quantity of life, competition. And he said, we need to evolve into epoch B, where we replace competition with cooperation, quantity of life, with quality of life, where the whole limited lifestyle was his view of the future compared to the past. Someone asked him, "Dr. Salk, how do you get from Epoch A to epoch B?" And he said, "Well, in every change in human history, there have been intellectual mutants." And he said, "What we need are teachers and ministers and prophetic leaders who help to bridge the old and the new view." And I think that is at the heart of our current political trauma. We have got people who are lamenting the demise of epoch A, and resisting moving to more stewardship of fragile resources, and are denying things like global warming, denying that we are running out of fossil fuel oil denying that we are running out of natural resources. So I think there is, kind of put it this way, I think there is a new civil war going on that is going on without guns and weapons, but it is going on for the heart and soul of Americans. And in a sense, the heart and soul of the world. And I think those of us who are progressive and liberal need to figure out how we do a better job of being the intellectual mutants that we need for this time. SM (00:52:22): The generation gap was certainly well documented. If you remember, there was a Life magazine cover with a young man with the glasses on, and he had the father pointing a finger at him, and the son was pointing a finger back. And in 1980, because you are a very... You care about Vietnam vets, that is where I first met you for the first time when you did a symposium on Agent Orange in Philadelphia. And this book was called The Lost Generation. And it was Senator Webb, Phil Caputo... BE (00:53:07): Ford Foundation found out that I had been a leader of working on Agent Orange back in the late (19)70s and early (19)80s, and forcing our government to care for our veterans that they sent me to gather a religious allegation and go to Vietnam and see the impact 35 years after the war on the children and grandchildren of the Vietnamese who are being exposed to Asian Orange. SM (00:53:35): Can I have a copy of this? BE (00:53:36): That is yours. SM (00:53:37): Because that is how I first met you. You probably do not remember, this is even before you came to Western. You were at a symposium, I think it was down near Temple. It was full of Vietnam vets, and you were talking about Agent Orange. And I was very impressed, and I know I am a friend of Harry Gafney. I do not know if you know Harry. And Dan Fraley and Steve Silver and that whole group, Dwight Edwards. And that is how... That was the beginning of I getting to know a lot of the Vietnam vets. And what I am trying to get at you here... BE (00:54:07): Do you need more than one copy? SM (00:54:12): If I could have a couple of these, I had appreciated it. I think I am going to turn this... It was a book that had a symposium documented, and the symposium was with Phil Caputo, Jim Webb, I think it was Bobby Mueller and James Fallows. And one other person, it was unbelievable. BE (00:54:42): Bobby Mueller is working with us on this. SM (00:54:45): Well, Bobby was at my retirement. I asked Bobby to come. He is one of the six people that was at my retirement. And what came up in this program is that I think they were talking about the generation gap and Jim Webb made a comment. The comment was, the generation gap is not between parents. Well, it is between parents and sons and daughters, but the real generation campus is within the generation between those who went to Vietnam and those who did not. And Bobby will remember this. It was a great interaction. And it was documented in the Wounded Generation book. Your thoughts on that commentary, whether, and this gets into my real big question here is, as a nation, I ask a question oftentimes, have we healed from the tremendous divisions that took place in the (19)60s and (19)70s between those who supported the war and against, between those who are black and white and all the other issues? And I took students to Washington to meet Senator Musky in 1995, and we asked this question to him, and I will give you his response in a minute. And I know Senator Nelson said it affected the body politic. But people do not want walk around Washington saying, I did not heal from the Vietnam War. Your thoughts on whether we as a nation have a problem with healing within this generation that grew after World War II, particularly those who served in Vietnam, 3 million plus, and those who may have been the anti-war people. BE (00:56:25): Well, before I answer your question, let me just say, I was the first anti-war activist on the Veterans Affairs Committee. And had I not been put on the Veterans Affairs Committee, I would have lost my elections. And at first, I did not want to be on the Veterans Affairs Committee, but I learned that even though you oppose the war, you can love the warrior. And even though you oppose the war, you can work on things like readjustment counseling centers, Agent Orange, post-traumatic stress disorder, et cetera. I would go to your question about the healing. I would only modify the comment about the generation gap being between those who went to war and those who did not. I think it is more complicated than that. I think it is between those who went to war and those who did not. Those who supported integration and those who did not. Those who understood the need for African Americans to be part of the quality of life in America and have resources. Expanded to those who believe that you cannot build walls to keep out Mexicans or people crossing your border, because the world has gotten complicated. I think there is a division between those who live by the God of money and those that live by the commitment to social justice and caring for people. So it is too simplistic to say it is just as though every... Because every veteran who served in Vietnam was not a hero. SM (00:58:24): So you know that from me, Eli, right? BE (00:58:27): Yeah. Many were. But there were good people and bad people in the war, and there were good people and bad people in the anti-war movement. And as human beings, what we have done to each other has been to pour salt on the wounds of race, the wounds of violence. And I think there is a division, a generation gap between those who think you can solve the world's problems by military action, and those who think you need to solve the problems with something like three cups of tea. The book that gentleman wrote is my thinking about how we should have handled Afghanistan. We are handling it with weapons and war, and every time we inadvertently kill a civilian, we have made a family of terrorists. And that is where the gap is. And I think you see it every day on nightly news. The gap is between Fox News and MSNBC. The gap is between Colbert and Rush Limbaugh. Glenn Beck is the hero of the anti-movement. And I would say both the left and the right, but mostly the right love and thrive on not allowing the nation to heal. And you see it internally in the Senate today where McConnell says, we are going to be the... We are going to be no until we can defeat Obama. And we do not want Obama to succeed. And one of the reasons I am president of Common Cause is I think John Gardner was right, that everybody had special interest in Washington except the average, ordinary people. And hostility of the generation gap is an internal gap between those who, once elected, serve the public interest as opposed to the special interest. And money is a corrosive influence in our whole system. So it is too simplistic to say it is those who went to war and those who did not, because those of us who did not go into the war, many of us worked very hard to provide the warrior healing through Regis counseling centers, the new GI Bill for the all-volunteer military, and to make sure that whether you are for or against a war, you are always for healing the soldier who goes to war. Some of us work to try to stop war. SM (01:01:42): Do you believe that the people who were the anti-war people, many of them are college students and well-known anti-war people, that they consider themselves veterans of the war too? BE (01:01:59): They are. We just gave an award, a lifetime Achievement Award to Daniel Ellsberg. SM (01:02:06): I am interviewing him. I am interviewing him a week from Monday. BE (01:02:10): He just received the John Gardner Lifetime Achievement Award in California. And he was introduced by Pete McCloskey, a marine. Former congressman. Former Democrat now... Former Republican now Democrat. But Pete McCloskey introduced him. The three of us were on the same stage together. There is two former congressmen and Daniel Ellsberg. I think of Dr. King as a hero. I think of William Sloane Coffin as a hero. I think of Kate McCloskey as a hero. I think of Daniel Ellsberg as a hero. SM (01:02:52): Daniel and Philip. BE (01:02:53): And Philip. I think of... SM (01:02:57): Malcolm Boyd. BE (01:02:58): Malcolm Boyd was a hero. Yeah. You do not have to go to war to be a hero. I think that people have given their lives for justice, peace, they are heroes too. My picture, and I have got to leave... My picture of a real hero, is the Chinese guy with two shopping bags standing in front of the tank. SM (01:03:28): We do not know whatever happened to him. BE (01:03:30): He is my hero. SM (01:03:38): Wow. BE (01:03:38): I guess I respect those who are willing to stand in front of the tanks. SM (01:03:42): Do you have any final thoughts on the boomer generation itself with respect to... A lot of the boomers when they were young, felt that they were... Last question. They were going to be the change agents for the betterment of society, that they were going to hopefully end war, bring peace, end racism, sexism, really kind of cure everything. Kind of be the panacea for a lot of the issues that were facing us in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. Do you feel that because of the fact that we still have a war and that we still have a lot of the, we still have racism, although we have come a long way, we still, as David Garrow said to me, the historian, I said, the accomplishments for gay and lesbian Americans has been unbelievable in terms of one of the results of the (19)60s. And of course, you got the environmental movement of Gaylord Nelson. BE (01:04:42): Let me answer your question because I got to go. I think that the every generation makes its contribution. When I grew up, everybody I knew smoked. No one smokes anymore. When I grew up, women were making 30 cents on the dollar that men were making. That gap is closing, and there are more rights and privileges according to women. When I grew up, there was segregation. There is still separation of the races, but much more tolerance, much more sharing, much more riding in the same bus together, in all the seats, any seat being used. So in terms of racism, there have been good movements. Environmental movement has been good. Much more quality of life issues have been improved over time. So there is good things. And one other good thing we have not talked about, which I want to think about in your book, I think the Boomer generation is going to teach us how to retire better than previous generations. They are going to want exercise rooms and theater and all of the amenities to be close to retirement. But hopefully they will also teach us that there is life after retirement. That 65 to 95-year-old need a job. They may not need a... SM (01:06:22): I am going back to work in a year. BE (01:06:24): They may not need as much of a salary, but they will need a stipend and benefits. We need a whole Peace Corps for senior adults. We need to find out how the 65 to 95-year-old can make a contribution to our society. So there is lots of positives. I think the negative is that there has been an increase in greed. Hold on second. See what happens when you talk about greed, whole thing goes up. SM (01:06:50): Let me just turn this over here. This is the slow one. There we go. BE (01:07:08): I think there has been an increase in greed, an increase in selfishness and cause of the religious right's personal salvation push, There is too much everyone for themselves. And I think one of the negative legacies that this generation is leaving us, and part of my generation is responsible for it too, is that nobody wants to pay taxes. And if you think about it, all the states are now moving to casinos to fund their schools and their elderly programs because nobody wants to pay taxes, even though we pay less in taxes than we did 30 years ago as a percentage of our income. And I think that is a very damaging legacy to leave. The other damaging legacy that has been left by those who are about to retire is that too many politicians have been caught with their fingers in the cookie jar. And too few young people see public service as an honorable profession. And my tears this week over Charlie Rangle was more about how many young blacks will avoid going into public service because they saw an 80-year-old black politician tarnished by his own lifestyle. And much of Charlie Rangel's problem was not corruption, it was sloppiness and arrogance and all of those kinds of things. SM (01:08:48): And how about the Vietnam veteran Cunningham, who was revered for his Vietnam service, now he is in jail. BE (01:08:54): Well, he took almost $5 million from military folk. So the handful of boomers who modeled bad behavior impacted more than a handful of others and other generations to have soiled views of the future. I have got to go. SM (01:09:23): Let me take two more pictures and then... I am going to take one definitely with only the backdrop. So this one is the one you are going to give to your wife. So if you stand right in front of it, and I will make sure the only thing I have in the back. Okay. Right there. So the only thing I am going to have in the backdrop is going to be that. BE (01:09:42): I think you should turn it on. SM (01:09:42): Yeah. And maybe one more. BE (01:09:42): That camera still have film in it? SM (01:09:53): Yes, it does. BE (01:09:54): Oh man, you are old fashioned. SM (01:09:56): Yep. Well, I have a digital, but this camera is good. There you go. Very good. Do you think when Janrus wrote his book... SM (01:10:03): Very good. Do you think when Jan Scruggs wrote his book, To Heal a Nation, that the wall has done some sort of a job in healing the nation? He not only talked about healing Vietnam vets and their families, but he talked about the nation itself. BE (01:10:17): It has helped, but remember Ronald Reagan said, "Tear down the wall." Maybe we need to tear down walls, but we need memorials. So I think that more as a memorial. Memorials are healing. SM (01:10:36): Here, if you can sign that to me, and I am glad you are in charge. I have John Edgar... Oh, not John Edgar, John Gardner's books. I have. I think I have all of them. Remember I read, No Easy Victories and then I had his book that I remember. I kind of encourage students to read, which is his book- BE (01:10:54): What do you go by in terms- SM (01:10:56): Stephen. BE (01:10:57): Stephen? SM (01:10:57): Yep. BE (01:10:57): P-H? SM (01:11:12): Yep. P-H-E-N. The interview itself includes questions that have been asked to all people, but there are also some specific questions and that have been geared toward your life as well. BE (01:11:21): Okay. SM (01:11:22): How did you become who you are? Could you describe your upbringing, your high school and college years, and maybe some of the role models and or historic figures you read about that inspired you? BE (01:11:35): Well, I am glad I gave you a copy of my book so you can find out all the details because the book is more of a biography of how I have done what I have done. As you know, I have been a United Methodist minister, I have been a congressman, I have been a faculty member at Swarthmore College. I ran the finance area for Senator Paul Simon of Illinois when he ran for president. I was head of the Committee for National Security under Paul Warnke who negotiated the SALT II agreement. I spent 10 years as president of a graduate school. I spent seven and a half years as head of the National Council of Churches, and now I have been three years as president of Common Cause. All of my vocational life in all those different professions have centered around my mantra, which I have kind of rephrased in the last couple of years. But it is to address fear, fundamentalism, and Fox News with a commitment to peace, poverty, and planet Earth. My wife of 46 years, who I have known for 52 years will tell you I only have one speech and a thousand illustrations focused on ending the poverty that kills healing the earth and working on peace and non-violence issues. Now you asked the question, how did I get started? I grew up in a blue collar family in a white collar community. I grew up in suburban Philadelphia while we were in a lower economic bracket than our neighbors and friends. My father never owned an automobile, never drove a car. I taught my mother how to drive at age, when she was 48 years old. We did everything on buses and trolleys between Philadelphia, Upper Darby, Chester, media, communities around Philadelphia. Yeah, we were, my brother and I, my older brother were sent to church so that my mother and father could sleep in on Sunday mornings. And I went to Sunday school and church services in the Methodist Church. And in those days, which was in the 1950s, there were an awful lot of progressive ministers who were linking gospel messages to civil rights, human rights, people's rights. When I became 15, 16, I went to a church camp and a couple ministers that I discovered, some ministers that taught me that ministers do not have to be boring, that they can be committed to social justice. I also took a tour of some poverty areas in Philadelphia and was surprised by my reaction to seeing poor people. In June of 1968, the Methodist Church sent me to 11 countries in Europe, not (19)68. In 1961, they sent me to 11 countries, including Italy, Germany, Austria, France. But I also got in behind the Iron Curtain in Czechoslovakia in the summer of 1961. And one of the most powerful experiences was in an orphanage that we visited in Naples, Italy. You had to travel by bus through a terrible slum, seeing the worst poverty you could see. And the bus went through a large gated building, and inside were a couple of hundred children who were orphans, all clean, all dressed, all cared for by faith related folks, all singing and joyful. And so the contrast between the abject poverty on the outside of the building and the care that was given on the inside had an impact on me. I had decided pretty early on to be a minister and thought that my whole life was going to be in the ministry. I wanted to be an urban minister. And in fact, that is the direction I went. A couple other incidents shaped my thinking. One was at age 19, I became pastor of my own church called the Gilbert and United Methodist Church in Gilbert and Pennsylvania. This is June of 1962. I am all of 19 had never been to a funeral, had never... I was given permission to do communion and baptisms and weddings, and most of it was to pay my way through college. After they had given churches to ordained elders in the Methodist Church and retired ministers and seminary students, they had churches left over. And so as a young, beginning my second year in college, I was pastor of a church. And the interesting thing was the church in Gilbert, the whole town was owned by the Gilbert and Coal company. All of the parishioners were related to the coal mine. They owned only the inside of their houses. The coal company owned all the land underneath their houses, and it was a strip mining area. The men were all dying in their (19)50s of black lung disease. And even though the people were very poor, they were very loving and caring and adopted a young preacher, taught me a lot. So those kinds of experience began to move me. I would say another defining experience, which I do describe in the book, is in February of 1968, I was invited by William Sloan Coffin, who was at that time the chaplain at Yale, later to become a minister at Riverside Church in New York. But Bill Coffin invited a group of people concerned about the Vietnam War to a meeting here in Washington at the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church. And I boarded a bus in northern New Jersey where I was at seminary and traveled to Washington for the first time. And as we got to the door of the church, the bus came to the curb. The radical religious rite of that day was a guy by the name of Carl McIntire, and he was out of Cape May, New Jersey. He was the Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Jim Dobson of that day. And he had organized a protest carrying signs that said, kill a commie for Christ's sake, and trying to get us not to cross his picket line. And as coming out of a blue-collar union family, I broke my father's dictum, never to cross a picket line and went inside the church, went up into the balcony of the church and listened to speaker after speaker, connect these with poverty and war. And in doing that, I began to recalibrate my own thinking. And the keynote speaker was a young guy, 39 years of age by the name of Dr. Martin Luther King. SM (01:19:22): Oh my God. BE (01:19:22): This is five weeks before he was assassinated. And he inspired me. I think of myself as a disciple of Dr. King, read his material. Less than 10 years later by accident, I got elected to the United States Congress. And a couple of years after that, I was one of 12 members of the Select Committee on assassinations looking into the death of Dr. King. These books over here are all the documents on the committee that was researching the death of Dr. King and John F. Kennedy. So I interviewed James Earl Ray the assassin as a young member of Congress. So... SM (01:20:13): Wow. BE (01:20:14): Dr. King by accident has had quite an impact. Let us just give you the smallest, it is only those persons that we are serving- SM (01:20:27): Walter Cronkite. BE (01:20:28): Yes. Remember him and Sam briefly in California. SM (01:20:31): Yep. Yep. Chris Dodd. BE (01:20:34): Yep. SM (01:20:37): Wow. BE (01:20:39): So this is a long answer to your short question. I think poverty and King vaccinated me to care about ending the poverty that kills, connecting poverty to war. And it was my father who connected me to the environment. He loved the trees and the land that he worked so hard on. Someone... He paid $13,000 for a house in the suburbs without the ability to have an automobile or a car. He worked 37 years at the same desk testing relays for General Electric, died at age 56 with probably killed by the chemicals he was using in the workplace or the fact that he smoked a lot. He was offered million dollars for his piece of land to build a shopping center. And he turned them down because the trees on his land, the environment were important and environment and introduced me to the early books in the (19)60s, The Greening of America. SM (01:21:48): Oh yeah. BE (01:21:49): Some of the early conversations about the environment. When I decided to run for Congress, I became kind of the environmental candidate. If the Republicans had run any candidate against me who cared about the environment or cared about women's issues, I would have lost because my district was the most Republican district in the nation. I had a Democratic congressman. SM (01:22:16): Yep. BE (01:22:17): And I got elected at age 31 as you know. SM (01:22:19): Yep. When you were in that room with, I did not know you were in the room with Dr. King six weeks before he was assassinated, I am- BE (01:22:28): We also marched in Arlington Cemetery that same day together. SM (01:22:31): Wow. Did... He touched your life obviously with his words and obvious he was a great preacher and his delivery and everything. But I interviewed another person whose husband was in Harvard when Dr. King came, or excuse me, Michigan State, when Dr. King came to speak. And he had said that it was the greatest experience he had ever had in his life listening to him. But I do not know if he is putting me on, but he said there was something about the aura and the atmosphere that he said, I did not think this guy was going to live long. And that was a commentary that from his Michigan State speech, when this person was at college there, I do not know if you felt bad at all that because he was certainly different and he had a lot of enemies. BE (01:23:27): At the time. I was not smart enough to think those thoughts. I was all eyes and ears except for the assassination of President Kennedy. I was lulled into thinking we were a peaceful nation. But if you look back on the assassination of Kennedy, King, Bobby Kennedy, and the attempt on Lawless' life, and you go back and look in history in terms of all the attempts on president's lives, you realize we're a pretty violent nation. SM (01:24:06): I think there is an author that wrote a book, Violence in America. Olga Demery was a very popular book in the (19)70s and talked about Native Americans and all the things that we had done to people in the south, you... It is interesting, we are about the same age. And I think I mentioned to your secretary that my grandfather was a Methodist minister Peekskill, New York from 54, excuse me, from 1936 to 1954. And he died in 56. And then I had, we went to Methodist Church in Courtland, New York growing up as a kid. And Dr. Nathan was our minister. And it is interesting you said about social messages. My mom used to tell me a story that we would go to church, I do not remember this, but we would go to church and I used to say to her, I wish they would cut out the singing out. Cause all I cared about was hearing his message. And this is like a second, third, fourth grade kid. There were messages that he gave. So you were right on about the social messages. One of the things when... The one talks about the (19)50s and (19)60s, one rarely talks about the religious leaders that influenced the boomers growing up. So when I look at religion, not just politics, religion itself, I think of Billy Graham, Norman Vincent Peale, Roy Rogers and Dale Evans, who were very religious, Bishop Sheen that- BE (01:25:33): Happy trails to you... SM (01:25:33): But they were very religious too. And they had Christmas albums and they took in kids. Bishop Sheen was on TV then. And then as we, and of course Dr. King and Rabbi Heschel and Jesse Jackson, Reverend Schuh and Pat Robertson, these are people that I think influenced Boomers over the- BE (01:25:49): Founding of the National Council of Churches was founded in 1950, was very much a part of the Civil Rights Movement. Brown versus Board of Education, the National Council of Churches had, I was General Secretary of that Council, but at 1957, had Dr. King as its keynote speaker, had a lot of late people, including a guy by the name of J. Irwin Miller. He was a late person. And in October 1967, Esquire Magazine had a cover. It says, 'The man who ought to be the next President of the United States.' SM (01:26:28): Wow. BE (01:26:29): He was head of Cummins Engine in, which was a big industrial thing. He was a Republican. He was also chair of the board at the National Council of Churches. And he was one of the founders of Common Cause. He worked with John Gardner. SM (01:26:49): John Gardner. Yeah. BE (01:26:50): There were three Republicans who were on the articles of incorporation. One was a guy by the name of Andrew High School who was head of Time publishing. One was John Gardner and one was J. Irwin Miller. And you... I had Gardner look at some of these pictures. J. Irwin Miller is with Dr. King in some of the signing of the Civil Rights Movement issues. And so there's a whole bunch of Republican, mainly madder Republicans, Eisenhower Republicans who began to speak up on civil rights, human rights, and people's rights who were also people of faith. And I think it goes back to winning World War II. You get, I am born in 1943, May 29th Life or Look Magazine came out that week and had Rosie the Riveter on the cover, woman who symbolized women working in factories to win the war. But the war is won and the Congress passes the most important piece of legislation. After the war, which was the GI Bill- SM (01:28:20): (19)48. BE (01:28:25): All of the blue-collar workers who went to war came back and became the white-collar workers of the (19)50s and (19)60s. Some of them became ministers, some of them became teachers, some of them became lawyers and doctors and other kinds of things. Sprawl started, people started to get wealthy from development of communities and suburbs expanded and people were moving out of the cities. Churches were being built. Every few minutes a new church was being dedicated and churches were packed. The sense of victory, we fought evil and we won. And every child will do better than their parents did. And their parents are doing better than their parents did. And the American dream is alive and well and had that sense. Brown versus Board of education happens in (19)54 and some of the hostility of civil rights. And suddenly in the (19)60s, you have got not only the war in Vietnam, you have got the burning of the cities, you have got the tension around civil rights and human rights. You have got the Commission on Poverty that comes out with a scathing report on the, that Johnson began the war on poverty efforts. And I think the faith leaders had read the Bible, thoughtfully enough to discover that God cares about poor people. I think some of the new religious leaders, the conservatives read the Bible and somehow did not find out that Jesus cared about poor people and misread all of those stories and somehow come out of the text believing God is the God of wealth. God is the God of prosperity. But the (19)50s and (19)60s, we were vaccinated by faith leaders who challenged government to respect people by race regardless of creed or color. And were willing in a sense, to fight a civil war over it. And then we did not go back to the battlefield with the South in terms of military war, but we did send in troops to make sure that schools were integrated and people who were part of our society became full partners. And Dr. King was kind of the disciple of that movement. SM (01:31:07): It leads into the area where the ones you address, and that is these periods of boomers have been alive. Keep in mind that those people born, say between (19)37 and (19)45, I think are closer to the boomer, the front edge boomers that were born between (19)46 and (19)56. Then those born between boomers that are from (19)57 to say (19)64 because they were graduate students, they inspired and were right by the side of many of the older boomers. But when you look at the different periods in America since 1946, and we are talking 64 years here now in the First Boomers now coming into Social Security this year, you talk very, you have already said something very important when you look at church, I can take the experience of my life. I love going to church when every Sunday, all throughout the (19)50s, when in the (19)60s, then my dad moved and we were quite away from the church. But it was that period that I saw church attendants seemed to wane as we started to head into the (19)60s. And then something happened, like you mentioned in the (19)70s, and I like your thoughts on this. In the late (19)70s, the religious rights seemed to come into power. Jerry Falwell, whether it be Oral Roberts, they were very Pat Robertson. BE (01:32:36): Jim Bakker, Tammy Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart. What happened was that (19)50s and (19)60s were upward mobility, growing of the suburbs, challenged with racism, challenged with poverty. But a society that said, we have got to address these issues if we're going to be great. By the early (19)70s, parents were telling their kid, do not go into ministry, do not go into social service, get an education, go to college. Some of us got to college by the skin of our teeth, but you're smarter than we are. So get a degree so you can make money. And the prosperity gospel got caught in. And on the political side, you had the aftermath of Barry Goldwater's loss and the conservative political, and then you had the emergence of religious conservatives who stayed out of politics mostly. And Billy Graham stayed out mostly. And many of the evangelists were talking about personal salvation and not very interested in politics. But you get into the (19)70s and alongside of the secular effort to make money, you had a whole bunch of what I call charlatan religious leaders who said, send us a dollar and we will pray for you. Put your hand on the radio set. And when we finish this prayer, write us a check for $1, $5- SM (01:34:25): Reverend Schuller or- BE (01:34:28): $10. And this is Jimmy and Swaggart and Jimmy Bakker and those guys, the televangelists, they did not want the money as much as they wanted your name and address because they were smart enough to use computers and know that they could amass large amounts of wealth by putting those names and addresses on a computer and keeping track and talking to them by region and by area. And initially putting a stamp on it, on a newsletter and getting it out to folks, but then getting it into a computer. So it was even cheaper. SM (01:35:06): It is like the DNC today, right? BE (01:35:08): Well, I think in 1980, there was a civil marriage between, probably started in (19)60, in (19)76, (19)77, (19)78, a civil marriage between these charlatans religious radical and the political right that made Ronald Reagan, the Christian president and Jimmy Carter and also ran Ronald Reagan would not go to church. But yeah, he was envisioned as being the guru. He was going to stop Roe versus Wade, which was an early (19)70s Supreme Court decision is all the conservative state and the religious right and the political right out-hustled the left. The left took 50 minutes to answer a question. The left did not deep frame some of the justice language. Whereas the religious right, the political right were willing to sloganeer simple savers, and so the left gets out hustled. And I think the religious right thought that if they had this civil marriage with the Republicans, that they would turn back Roe versus Wade. That they would be able to prosper in kind of not just the old time religion, but focused on personal salvation. And the wealthy were blessed by God because they were wealthy. God must be blessing them. I think they forgot the passage that talks about how hard it is for a rich man to enter heaven, where they said, it is easier for a camel than go through the eye of a needle and for a rich man to enter heaven. And they saw Jesus in a tuxedo more than touching the hem of a prostitute, hem of the dress of a prostitute or touching the leper or hugging a poor person. And so you have got this tension that I think has actually grown into the split in our country. We are divided three ways, a radical Christian and political right on one side, moderate to progressive liberals on the other side, and a whole host of people that are in the middle. And the reason I wrote the book, Middle Church, which goes against, goes against now that is- SM (01:37:54): Oh, Okay. Yep. BE (01:37:55): The reason I wrote that book was to go after Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and the religious right. But it is middle church, middle synagogue, middle mosque. And my argument in the book is that the religious left failed, and we failed because we would do calpoint, point, counterpoint with the religious right. We forgot to evangelize the middle. And you have got a whole host of Americans in the middle who are too easily swayed by patriotism and false morality that many on the left have forgotten to use that patriotism and morality language. And that book could have been called Middle America. It is more of a secular political book then a churchy book. But it will give you some idea if you read it, some of these thoughts. SM (01:39:01): But where would you place in, we all know what the Beatles did. They went into any now organized religion. They went off to them, Maharishi or whatever. It was fairly common that a lot of people are going off into Zen Buddhism. I interviewed Peter Coyote and he told me, the actor, that if it was not for Zen Buddhism, he would not be alive today. I mean, it is that important for him to relax. He has been doing it for 35 years. And so a lot of people became Zen Buddhist. A lot of people like the Beatles, and not just the Beatles, because they were well known, but other people got into all these maharishis and they came to college campuses in the late (19)60s. You had the Moonies that were everywhere. And there was this attitude, and correct me if I am wrong, that a lot of the boomer kids and a lot of young adults for some reason went against anything that was in a, were position of authority. They were against their political leaders. They were against their religious leaders, they were against politicians, the college administrators. So the inner-inner spirituality became the thing in the late (19)60s, in the (19)70s. Your thoughts on this inner spirituality where you do not need to go to church. It is just that kind of- BE (01:40:21): I will answer that question, but let me challenge something you said. I would not use the phrase a lot. I would use some because I think the majority did what their parents told them to do. Go to college, become something, get a profession. But the (19)60s and (19)70s are marked by a search, a search religiously, a search psychologically, a search for meaning, a search for life. And not only did folks search alternative religions, but they also searched alternative lifestyles, commune movement, and others. And you remember some of this came out of Woodstock, some of it came out of the anti-war movement. Some of it, the draft was there. And people had to ask themselves, is the United States worth dying for? SM (01:41:30): Yeah. BE (01:41:31): And if not, do I go to Canada? What do I think about 58,000 people being killed in Vietnam and hundreds of thousands being wounded, and what do I think if I care about integration, about the fact that liberals were disappearing here and there being killed and lynched and blacks were being attacked. And it was a big struggle for the identity of America. So there is not one issue that it was a small important cluster. I remember when I got elected to Congress, some of my friends said, why would you do that? Why do not you stay on the outside of government and fight the corruption, fight the bad guys who are in government in those days, you know, had Watergate and you had a lot of lack of modeling of good behavior. And I think there was that tension in our society. My own personal view is that you need people inside the tent and people outside the tent, people inside government, people outside government. I have got five honorary doctorate degrees, but only four arrests for civil disobedience. If I have any regrets in my life, it is that I have not been arrested enough. And- SM (01:43:09): Dr. King be proud is because Dr. King used to always say that, if you're not willing to go to jail for your belief, what are you out there for? BE (01:43:16): Right. SM (01:43:17): Not doing violent things. BE (01:43:18): But my friend Peter Yarrow of Peter, Paul, and Mary sings a song for me once in a while about, "Have You Been To Jail For Justice." Good words in that song. SM (01:43:28): You are right. Right. What other things we... Well know that when President Kennedy, well when he was running for president, the issue with the Catholic Church and that religion would influence his decisions. Obviously, that did not happen. But what did that say about the America of 1960, about fearful that the Pope was going to run the United States of government? And John Kennedy obviously saw that the concern, but he said that is not going to happen with him. BE (01:44:05): Yeah. Well, like John Kennedy, I believe in the separation of church and state, but not the separation of people of faith and institutions of government. You want your elected officials to have an active faith statement, but you need to always remember that you are not serving in public office a particular denomination or religious tradition. Henry Waxman, whose Jewish was elected with me in 1974, I want him to be a faithful member of the Jewish community, but he would never intend to have the Jewish community make the United States a Jewish nation. I think it is true of Muslims who might serve in Congress. I want them to be faithful. I want them to read the Quran, but I do not want to have Sharia law lead the law of land. SM (01:45:02): Right. BE (01:45:02): I do not want to have Sharia law be the law of the land. For conservative Protestants, I want them to be themselves. I do not have any animosity to people who are in the religious right, unless that religious right once elected thinks that it can make this a Christian nation. Our founding fathers were very smart to help all of us understand this is a nation that believes in religious pluralism. We want people of faith and people of no faith to use morals and values that grow out of their tradition, but not to ever allow any individual faith tradition to dominate. In our history, we used to hang people who were Roman Catholics. We used to torture people who were a different kind of Protestant than we had. I think the founding fathers and mothers said, "Hey, that is not going to make us a very healthy nation, so let us respect everybody's religious tradition." What is interesting is that you do not know the founding of this country and the people that come here are made up of people who left their homelands because of religious persecution in many cases. We all know that America is a xenophobic nation, that is afraid of people who are different, in the whole history. I mean, the Irish. I was even educating my dad more about some of the things that happened between England and Ireland and the Potato Famine and so forth and the treatment. What amazes me today, I am very concerned about it, and I would like your thoughts on some of the attacks on President Obama, and some people say his close links with the Muslim faith. Some people say he is a Muslim. He says he is a Christian. They will not listen to his word. They have their personal opinions. It kind of shoots me back to what happened in 1960, about the fear of the Pope. Well, then there is a fear that Islam will take over. I know they use the issue of terrorism, but I see this continuing, oftentimes a trend where- SM (01:47:17): Just remember that- BE (01:47:19): The kid that blew up the federal building in Oklahoma City was a Roman Catholic raised in the United States. And if there are terrorists in 60 countries, we do not stop terrorism by bombing capitals. Part of our problem in this country is racism. Part of our problem is fear of the other. And part of our problem is we carry around in our heads, world war images of what war is about. And I think some of the leaders that Obama has, many of the leaders that Bush had were focused on World War II images of the world, and we got to change that view. We need an international police effort on terrorism, but we ought to cut in half our military expenditures. I laugh when I read the newspapers with a tear in my eye when I think about all of the conservatives who say, "We have got to balance the budget," but you cannot cut defense. We have got to balance the budget, but we're going to go to war in Afghanistan and in Iraq without paying for it, without raising taxes, and we got these big deficits. All those deficits are caused by over-spending on healthcare and education and social security. Hogwash. We are in this predicament because we, after 9/11, were manipulated by Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Bush on the issue of fear, we went after a nation that had nothing to do with 9/11 called Iraq. We went after it even though the inspectors were there. There was no hint that they actually had nuclear weapons or nuclear capability. And on the one hand, the political right and the religious right wanted more expenditures on defense, more expenditures for war, but somehow that does not impact on their thinking on deficits. SM (01:49:24): Do you see the link here? You are talking about the fear now. The fear in the (19)50s was the fear of the Cold War from the boomer generation. They were [inaudible] the fear of the Cold War, the potential- BE (01:49:41): Cold War fear started before the boomers were elected. It was the fear grew of the cult war grew out of the separation of Germany right after World War II and the building of... Russia was a world-class military, but a third-class country without the ability to really have an economy that worked. And there were all these myths about the former Soviet Union, and I think people who lived through World War II saw in terms of the exchange of nuclear weapons. And I think by the time the boomers got here and they were very small and children at the time, that fear not only got intensified with the East-West struggle, but it also pointed out that even when you tore down the Berlin Wall, you had to find another enemy to be fearful of. And so I think Rumsfeld and Cheney were able to use 9/11 as a way of tapping into the fear that people have. And my complaint about Americans is we are dumb. We do not learn from history and- SM (01:51:01): We do not read history. BE (01:51:01): We do not read history, and we do not realize that we have got to send our young people to get an international education and not just a domestic education. SM (01:51:10): Global. Yeah. That has been the talk. We have to prepare students for the global world. I remember Henry Cisneros at a conference, golly way back in the early (19)90s. He was speaking for a mayor, I think, of San Antonio. And this beautiful college administrator stood up and said, "Well, what is America going to be like if it is the majority are minorities?" And it was shocking to hear it from her, but she was asking a question and he said... I will never forget what he said. He said, "You should not be fearing the future. You should be preparing for the future because you are going to have bosses who are Latino. You are going to have bosses who are Asian American and from India, you name it. And so we have to prepare students for the world they are going to face because it is a global world." And you raised some good points. It is interesting also that McCarthyism, which was trying to label people who spoke up or were politically active as communists. I see sometimes today for people who may support Muslims in America are sometimes paying a price too for... We did a conference, Islam in America at Westchester University. It was my last coup probably before we left. We packed the place the entire day and we brought in the spiritual leader from Detroit who had written a book, and we brought in two authors from New York, and we did a tremendous program, and it was nine straight program. We had a 400 for every session, and we got criticized for it. In fact, some of our professors went out to speak at other universities and they had people in the audience trying to, "Do you remember when you were at that conference," and all that kind of stuff. BE (01:53:04): Well, it is the same thing that is happening to Obama by calling him a socialist, and some of the Tea Party folks making him a fascist. They do not know what a fascist is. And my own concern is that he is not socialist enough. SM (01:53:19): Well, one of the things too that I think is important. When you think of the (19)60s and the (19)70s, and you think of the boomer generation, and particularly the activists of that period who were anti- war. They were down in all the movement. Many of them were the new left. And so they attacked liberals as well as conservatives because LBJ was a liberal when he was running the war. Nixon was the... Even though he was conservative- BE (01:53:47): They defeated Humphrey. SM (01:53:49): Right. BE (01:53:49): Because Humphrey was not liberal enough. SM (01:53:51): Right. How are we doing time-wise? BE (01:53:54): I have about 15 minutes and then I have got to close up. Sorry. I talk too much. SM (01:53:59): That is okay. When did the (19)60s begin, in your opinion, and when did it end? BE (01:54:03): It is a silly question. SM (01:54:12): Silly question? BE (01:54:14): I am just pulling your leg. It began in 1960 and it ended in 1969. SM (01:54:18): Oh, yeah. BE (01:54:27): I think the (19)60s... This is going to sound strange to you, but since you are talking about the boomers, I do not think the (19)60s had as much impact on the boomer generation than the 1970s had on them. I think the 1960s had more of an impact on my generation, those of us who were born in the late (19)30s and early (19)40s and who came to adulthood in the (19)60s. And those of us, I was... In 1961, entered college in (19)65, graduated from college in (19)68, and graduated from graduate school. June of (19)68 was a full-time minister in the city of Philadelphia, writing on the Philadelphia police clergy unit. I think that starting with the assassination of President Kennedy, where we all were taught about guns in America and war and violence plus the civil rights tension and the dogs and the fire hoses and that kind of thing. I think that had much more of a psychological impact on my generation. I think that the bloomers coming were like teenagers in the (19)60s, some of them early boomers. Some were tainted by the drug culture and LSD and that kind of thing. But most of them who got into adulthood in (19)71, (19)72, and (19)73, where they were tainted, they were tainted by Watergate. They were tainted by the prosperity gospel. They were tainted by some of the televangelist movement. They were tainted by money being God as opposed to God being God. And I think it led to the resurgence. They brought us Ronald Reagan. They brought us George Bush. They modified a little bit with Bill Clinton, but I think of President George Bush Jr. was not as impacted by my generation as he was by the... SM (01:57:05): 1960s. BE (01:57:08): Well, more of the 1970s. SM (01:57:08): (19)70s, yeah. BE (01:57:12): I think the late (19)60s and (19)70s were part of that. So to answer your question, for me, the 1960s had not ended. SM (01:57:22): You are not the only person that said that. BE (01:57:27): Okay. But it is diminishing in that it is a smaller and smaller group of us who were impacted by the (19)60s and think the next generation is going to be modified by resource depletion. Dr. Jonas Salk spoke at a group of us in Congress before he died. He invented the polio vaccine, and he had a great lecture about what he called Epoch A and Epoch B. Epoch A for him was those that came after World War II. They are going to raise their kids. They are going to have more money and everything is going to get better. Epoch A was symbolized by consumption, quantity of life, and competition. And he said, "We need to evolve into Epoch B, where we replace competition with cooperation, quantity of life with quality of life," where the whole limited lifestyle was his view of the future compared to the past. Someone asked him, "Dr. Salk, how do you get from Epoch A to Epoch B?" And he said, "Well, in every change in human history, there have been intellectual mutants." And he said, "Well, we need our teachers and ministers and prophetic leaders who helped to bridge the old and the new view." And I think that is what is at the heart of our current political trauma. We have people who are lamenting the demise of Epoch A and resisting moving to more stewardship of fragile resources and are denying things like global warming, denying that we are running out of fossil fuel oil, denying that we are running out of natural resources. So I think there is kind of a... Put it this way, I think there is a new civil war going on. It is going on without guns and weapons, but it is going on for the heart and soul of Americans and in a sense, the heart and soul of the world. I think those of us who are progressive and liberal need to figure out how we do a better job of being the intellectual mutants that we need for this time. SM (02:00:13): The generation gap was certainly well-documented. You remember there was a Life magazine cover with a young man with the glasses on, and he had the father pointing a finger at him, and the son was pointing a finger back. And in 1980, because you are a very... You care about Vietnam vets. That is where I first met you for the first time when you did a symposium on Agent Orange in Philadelphia. And this book was called The Lost Generation, and it was Senator Webb, Phil Caputo... Wow. BE (02:00:55): Ford Foundation found out that I had been a leader of working on Agent Orange back in the late (19)70s and early (19)80s, and forcing our government to care for our veterans that they sent me to gather a religious delegation and go to Vietnam and see the impact 35 years after the war on the children and grandchildren of the Vietnamese who are being exposed to Agent Orange. So, I- SM (02:01:21): Can I have a copy of this? BE (02:01:22): That is yours. SM (02:01:23): Because see, that is how I first met you. I am trying to remember, this is even before you came to Westchester. You were at a symposium. I think it was down near Temple. It was full of Vietnam vets and you were talking about Agent Orange. And I was very impressed, and I know I am a friend of Harry Gaffney. I do not know if you know Harry and Dan Fraley and Steve Silver and that whole group, Dwight Edwards. And that was the beginning of my getting to know a lot of the Vietnam vets and what I am trying to get at here- BE (02:01:52): You need more than one copy? SM (02:01:53): Yes. If I could have a couple of these, I would appreciate it. I think I am going to turn this one over. The question I have is, there was a book called The Longest... Let me get this here. Sorry. It was a book that had a symposium documented, and the symposium was with Phil Caputo, Jim Webb, I think it was Bobby Mueller, James Fallows, and one other person. It was unbelievable. BE (02:02:28): Bobby Mueller is working with us on this. SM (02:02:32): Yeah. Well, Bobby was at my retirement. I asked Bobby to come. He was one of the six people that was at my retirement. And what came up in this program is that I think they were talking about the generation gap, and Jim Webb made a comment. The comment was, "The generation gap is not between parents. Well, it is between parents and sons and daughters, but the real generation gap is within the generation between those who went to Vietnam and those who did not." And Bobby will remember this. It was a great interaction. And it's documented in the Wounded Generation book. Your thoughts on that commentary, whether... And this gets into my real big question here. As a nation, I ask a question oftentimes, have we healed from one of the tremendous divisions that took place in the (19)60s and (19)70s between those who supported the war? And again, between those who are Black and White and all the other issues? And I took students to Washington to meet Senator Musky in 1995, and we asked this question to him, and I will give you his response in a minute. And I know Senator Nelson said it affected the body politic, but people do not want walk around Washington saying, "I did not heal from the Vietnam War." Your thoughts on whether we as a nation have a problem with healing within this generation, the group after World War II, particularly those who serve in Vietnam - 3 million plus - and those who may have in the anti-war people? BE (02:04:06): Well, before I answer your question, let me just say, I was the first anti-war activist on the Veterans Affairs Committee, and had I not been put on the Veterans Affairs Committee, I would have lost my elections. And at first, I did not want to be on the Veterans Affairs Committee, but I learned that even though you oppose the war, you can love the warrior. And even though you oppose the war, you can work on things like readjustment counseling centers, Agent Orange, Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, et cetera. I would go to your question about healing. I would only modify the comment about the generation gap being between those who went to war and those who did not. I think it is more complicated than that. I think it is between those who went to war and those who did not, those who supported integration and those who did not, those who understood the need for African Americans to be part of a quality of life in America and have resources expanded to those who believe that you cannot build walls to keep out Mexicans or people crossing your border because the world has gotten complicated. I think there is a division between those who live by the god of money and those that live by the commitment to social justice and caring for people. So it's too simplistic to say it is just as though every... Because every veteran who served in Vietnam was not a hero. We know that from Eli, right? SM (02:06:01): Yeah. BE (02:06:01): Many were, but there were good people and bad people in the war, and there were good people and bad people in the anti-war movement. And as human beings, what we have done to each other has been to pour salt on the wounds of race, the wounds of violence. And I think there is a division, a generation gap between those who think you can solve the world's problems by military action. And those who think you need to solve the problems with something like three cups of tea. The book that gentleman wrote is my thinking about how we should have handled Afghanistan. We were handling it with weapons and war, and every time we inadvertently kill a civilian, we have made a family of terrorists. And that is where the gap is. I think you see it every day on Nightly News. The gap is between Fox News and MSNBC. The gap is between Cobert and Rush Limbaugh. Glenn Beck is the hero of the anti-movement. And I would say both the left and the right, but mostly the right love and thrive on not allowing the nation to heal. And you see it internally in the Senate today where McConnell says, "We are going to be no until we can defeat Obama, and we do not want Obama to succeed." And one of the reasons I am President of Common Cause is I think John Gardner was right, that everybody had a special interest in Washington except average ordinary people. And the hostility of the generation gap is that internal gap between those who once elected, serve the public interest as opposed to the special interest. And money is a corrosive influence in our whole system. So it is too simplistic to say it is those who went to war and those who did not because those of us who did not go into the war, many of us worked very hard to provide the warrior healing through Regis counseling centers, the new GI Bill for the all-volunteer military, and to make sure that whether you are for or against a warrior, you are always for healing the soldier who goes to war, and some of us work to try to stop wars. SM (02:09:05): Do you believe that the people who were the anti-war people, many of them are college students and well-known people, that they consider themselves veterans of the war too? BE (02:09:21): They are. SM (02:09:21): And we- BE (02:09:22): We just gave an award, Lifetime Achievement Award to Daniel Ellsberg. SM (02:09:28): I am interviewing him. I mean, a week from Monday. BE (02:09:31): He just received the John Gardner Lifetime Achievement Award in California. And he was introduced by Pete McCloskey, a Marine, former congressman, former Republican, now Democrat. But Pete McCloskey introduced him. But the three of us were on the same stage together. There are two former congressmen and Daniel Elizabeth. I think of Dr. King as a hero. I think of William Sloane Coffin as a hero. I think of Pete McCloskey as a hero. I think of Daniel Ellsberg as a hero. SM (02:10:11): Daniel and Philip. BE (02:10:12): And Philip. I think of... SM (02:10:15): Malcolm Boyd. BE (02:10:16): Malcolm Boyd was a hero. And you do not have to go to war to be a hero. I think that people have given their lives for justice and peace. They are heroes too. My picture... And I have got to leave. My picture of a real hero is the Chinese guy with two shopping bags standing in front of the tank. SM (02:10:44): You do not know whatever happened to him. BE (02:10:46): He is my hero. SM (02:10:48): Wow. BE (02:10:53): I guess I respect those who are willing to stand in front of the tanks. SM (02:10:56): Do you have any final thoughts on the boomer generation itself with respect to... A lot of the boomers when they were young felt that they were going to... This will be my last question. They were going to be the change agents for the betterment of society, that they were going to hopefully end war to bring peace, end racism, sexism, and really kind of cure everything. Kind of be the panacea for a lot of the issues that were facing us in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. Do you feel that because of the fact that we still have of war and that we still have a lot of the... We still have racism, although we have come a long way. We still, as David Garrow said to me, the historian said the accomplishments for gay and lesbian Americans have been unbelievable in terms of one of the results of the (19)60s. And of course, you got the environmental movement, Gaylor Nelson, and... BE (02:11:54): Let me ask you a question because I got to go. SM (02:11:56): Yep. BE (02:11:59): I think that every generation makes its contribution. When I grew up, everybody I knew smoked. No one smokes anymore. When I grew up, women were making 30 cents on the dollar that men were making. That gap is closing, and there are more rights and privileges according to women. When I grew up, there was segregation. There is still a separation of the races, but much more tolerance, much more sharing, much more riding in the same bus together at all the seats, any seat being used. So in terms of racism, there have been good movements. Environmental movement has been good. Much more quality of life issues have been improved over time. So there is good things. And one other good thing we have not talked about, which you might want to think about in your book. I think the boomer generation is going to teach us how to retire better than previous generations. They are going to want exercise rooms and theater and all of the amenities to be close to retirement, but hopefully, they will also teach us that there is life after retirement. That 65 to 95-year-olds need a job. They may not need a- SM (02:13:30): Yeah, I am going back to work in a year. BE (02:13:31): They may not need as much of a salary, but they will need a stipend and benefits. We need a whole Peace Corps for senior adults. We need to find out how the 65 to 95-year-olds can make a contribution to our society. So there are lots of positives. I think the negative is that there has been an increase in greed and an increase in selfishness. And because of the religious rights of personal salvation push, there is too much everyone for themselves. And I think one of the negative legacies that this generation is leaving us, and part of my generation is responsible for it too, is that nobody wants to pay taxes. And if you think about it, all the states are now moving to casinos to fund their schools and their elderly programs because nobody wants to pay taxes, even though we pay less in taxes than we did 30 years ago as a percentage of our income. And I think that is a very damaging legacy to leave. The other damaging legacy that has been left by those who are about to retire is that too many politicians have been caught with their fingers in the cookie jar and too few young people see public service as an honorable profession. And my tears this week over Charlie Wrangle was more about how many young Blacks will avoid going into public service because they saw an 80-year-old Black politician tarnished by his own lifestyle and much of Charlie Wrangel's problem was not corruption. It was sloppiness and arrogance and all of those kinds of things. SM (02:15:37): And how about the Vietnam veteran Cunningham, who was revered for his Vietnam service? Now, he is in jail. BE (02:15:43): Well, he took almost $5 million from military folk. So the handful of boomers who modeled bad behavior impacted more than a handful of others and other generations who have soiled views of the future. I got to go. SM (02:16:10): Let me take two more pictures and then I am going to take one definitely with only the background. So this one is the one you are going to give to your wife. So if you stand right in front of it, and I will make sure the only thing I have in the back... Okay. Right there. So the only thing I am going to have in the backdrop is [inaudible] do that. BE (02:16:29): [inaudible]. SM (02:16:29): Yeah. Three, six. One more. BE (02:16:29): That camera still have film in it? SM (02:16:39): Yes, it does. BE (02:16:39): Oh, man. You are old-fashioned. SM (02:16:41): Yep. Well, I have a vision over this camera is good. BE (02:16:44): There you go. SM (02:16:45): Very good. Do you think when Jan Scruggs wrote his book To Heal A Nation that the wall has done some sort of a job in healing the nation? He not only talked about healing Vietnam vets and their families, but he talked about the nation itself. BE (02:17:02): It helped. But remember, Ronald Reagan said tear down the wall. Maybe we need to tear down walls, but we need memorials. So I think of it more as a memorial. Memorials are healing. SM (02:17:20): If you can sign that to me. I am glad you're in charge. I had John Edgar... Oh, not John here. John Gardner's books. I think I have all of them. I read No Easy Victories and then I have his book that... I remember I kind of encouraged students to read, which is his book. BE (02:17:37): What do you go by in terms- SM (02:17:38): Steven. BE (02:17:38): Steven. SM (02:17:39): Yeah. (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert William Edgar Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edgar, Robert, 1943-2013 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Legislators—United States--Pennsylvania; Democratic Party (Pa.); Edgar, Robert, 1943-2013--Interviews Description An account of the resource Robert William Edgar (1943-2013) was a businessman, administrator, and politician. Edgar was a member of the Democratic Party and congressman in Pennsylvania for six terms. He received his Bachelor's degree from Lycoming College in Williamsport, Pennsylvania, and a Master of Divinity degree from the Theological School of Drew University in Madison, New Jersey. Edgar died from a heart attack after running on the treadmill at his home. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-12-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.45a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.45b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 137:41 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/52c578e25841b26676579fc310f193e2.jpg 36e07a4d765bdbe55226834a5bc0baab https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4c5d16464216ef472a4a319b0e3c2c05.mp3 eb31b45ee34b7fc28e1c65aee9ada4e5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-12-13 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Roberta Price Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Roberta Price, born in New York City, is an author, photographer, educator, and intellectual property attorney in Albuquerque, New Mexico. After college, Price lived seven years in the Huerfano (\&quot;Orphan\&quot;) Valley and published a memoir of her experiences entitled, Huerfano: A Memoir of Life in the Counterculture. She left the commune to pursue a law degree. Price has a Bachelor's degree from Vassar College and a law degree from the University of New Mexico School of Law. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15107,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,16777215],&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,4342338],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Roberta Price, born in New York City, is an author, photographer, educator, and intellectual property attorney in Albuquerque, New Mexico. After college, Price lived seven years in the Huerfano ("Orphan") Valley and published a memoir of her experiences entitled <em>Huerfano: A Memoir of Life in the Counterculture</em>. She left the commune to pursue a law degree. Price has a Bachelor's degree from Vassar College and a law degree from the University of New Mexico School of Law. </span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Western America; Huerfano Valley; March on the Pentagon; Photography; Commune; Vietnam War; Hippies; Baby boom generation.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Western America; Huerfano Valley; March on the Pentagon; Photography; Commune; Vietnam War; Hippies; Baby boom generation.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 86:51 Subject LCSH Authors, American; Photographers; Intellectual property lawyers; Price, Roberta--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Roberta Price Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Price, Roberta ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors, American; Photographers; Intellectual property lawyers; Price, Roberta--Interviews Description An account of the resource Roberta Price, born in New York City, is an author, photographer, educator, and intellectual property attorney in Albuquerque, New Mexico. After college, Price lived seven years in the Huerfano ("Orphan") Valley and published a memoir of her experiences entitled <em>Huerfano: A Memoir of Life in the Counterculture</em>. She left the commune to pursue a law degree. Price has a Bachelor's degree from Vassar College and a law degree from the University of New Mexico School of Law. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-12-13 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.205 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 86:51 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8df1fd7f6705eeb0f4f56c7674fc3f25.mp3 7a7b7c569f34f6539e56e7b7a2fd23d0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-11-14 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rodney Alexander Year of Graduation 1968 Biographical Text Harpur College BA Social Sciences, '68. Rodney Alexander was executive director of the Manhattan Educational Opportunity Center at the Borough of Manhattan Community College (BMCC), CUNY. After graduating from Harpur College, he completed degrees in public administration and in business administration from NYU. His wife, Daryl Royster Alexander, was the founding editor of Essence magazine. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rodney Alexander Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Alexander, Rodney ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Harpur College BA Social Sciences, '68. Rodney Alexander was executive director of the Manhattan Educational Opportunity Center at the Borough of Manhattan Community College (BMCC), CUNY. After graduating from Harpur College, he completed degrees in public administration and in business administration from NYU. His wife, Daryl Royster Alexander, was the founding editor of <em>Essence</em> magazine. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-11-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Rodney Alexander.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-11-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 63:15 minutes IIIF Item Metadata UUID db54668a-0dd7-404a-982b-740dfd1194a3 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7a01c9700dfd7e49241a95c334258f7f.jpg 1f37270d48fddbd2c6d9f3d701d184bc https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b0caa59d6c07c6de15fd224ff0681b36.mp3 a2028080b873b58b312144a5b366c67e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2009-12-10 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Roger Clegg Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Roger Clegg is the President and General Counsel of the Center for Equal Opportunity. He was the Deputy Assistant Attorney General for both the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations. He specializes in legal issues arising from civil rights laws including immigration and bilingual education. Clegg received his Bachelor's degree from Rice University and is a graduate of Yale University Law School. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:6531,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Roger Clegg is the President and General Counsel of the Center for Equal Opportunity. He was the Deputy Assistant Attorney General for both the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations. He specializes in legal issues arising from civil rights laws including immigration and bilingual education. Clegg received his Bachelor's degree from Rice University and is a graduate of Yale University Law School. </span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Vietnam War; Bill Buckley; Native American/ American Indian Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Kent State; Watergate; Richard Nixon; Counter Culture; Hippies; Yippies; The Black Panthers; Baby boom generation; President Obama.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13689059}}">Vietnam War; Bill Buckley; Native American/ American Indian Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Kent State; Watergate; Richard Nixon; Counter Culture; Hippies; Yippies; The Black Panthers; Baby boom generation; President Obama</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 160:15 Subject LCSH Lawyers; Center for Equal Opportunity; Clegg, Roger--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Roger Clegg Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 10 December 2009 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Testing. One, two. I was not checking. First off, thank you very much for participating in this project. RC (00:00:21): Sure. SM (00:00:21): First question I would like to ask is, when you think of the (19)60s what is the first thing that comes to your mind? RC (00:00:29): I think of unrest, I guess. The protests, the anti-war protests, civil rights movement, riots, a very unsettled time. I think of the politics. I think of it as being a very political, politicized decade. I should say that I was born in 1955, so by the end of the (19)60s I was certainly politically aware, and was becoming interested in following politics. I was only five or six years old, so less so. SM (00:01:32): How did you become who you are? I have been asking this probably for the last 50 people that I have been interviewing. How did you become who you are as a person? Was there some magic moment in your life when you were in high school, college where you kind of knew the direction you were going, or the thought you had? Was there anything during that time when Boomers were young, and you were right in the middle of the Boomers in terms of (19)55 because it goes from (19)46 to (19)64. RC (00:02:07): I think in terms of my professional life and what I decided to do as a career, I have always been interested in politics, in history. I do not think that there was one particular moment where it dawned on me that this was something interesting. This is something that I have always been interested in. I think that I have always been a conservative with a libertarian streak. That is been true for a long time as well. And so, you put those two together and I am now a conservative lawyer. I do not think that there was a particular defining moment. That was something that was part of my makeup early on. I did not always want to be a lawyer. I tell people that the course that I took in college that persuaded me to be a lawyer was biochemistry. Up until then, I was thinking also medical school. I just decided, this is my junior year, that I really was more interested and more comfortable, better at political science and history, and things like that. That made the decision for me that I was going to go to law school. SM (00:04:15): Did you have role models when you were young? RC (00:04:18): I was going to say that it will be interesting to see if you have other people that give you this answer. For conservatives of my generation, I think that a lot of them had to have been influenced by Bill Buckley. He was a hero of mine. At that time, I think that there were not a lot of prominent popular culture conservatives. He was really it. Even if there had been others, he was clearly I think a star. I early on starting reading him, subscribing to National Review, watching him on Firing Line. I think he was a very influential person for me. Later on, I read other conservatives too. When I went to law school, one of my professors was Robert Bork. I was older then. This was the late (19)70s by then. When I was coming of age, Buckley was I think the person who was most influential. Obviously, in my own family, I do not want to ignore my parents. My grandfather was somebody who was also... He was not a lawyer, but he was very interested in politics and I had a close relationship with him. In terms of people outside my family, I would have to say it was Buckley. In fact, I remember when not long after I had come to work here, a guy who was also here left to go to work for National Review. I called him and said, "Look, I would love to shake hands with Wayne Buckley. Do you ever see him? It does not have to be a dinner or anything like that. I just want to meet him." He said, "Well, Buckley is getting older now. He does not come to Washington a lot, but he is going to be in Washington for this event at..." We were talking about ISI before and he was going to be I think honored at some ISI event. He said, "I can introduce you there." I got there and it was this huge event. This was before cellphones and all that. Stupidly, I had not arranged ahead of time where I was going to meet my friend. Anyway, what I decided to do was, everybody had to come through this one entrance and get checked in on the guest list. I got there early so I thought, well I will just hang out here and keep my eye peeled. Sure enough, Buckley came by. And so, I just kind of got in line behind him. At some point he turned around and I stuck my hand out. He was so... This was very not characteristic of him. He was so gracious. I said, "Hi, Roger Clegg. I write for National Review," which I was. I was a contributing editor for National Review Online. He just said, "Oh, hello Roger," and stuck out his hand. "It's good to see you. Have you met my wife? Here is my wife. Have you met my son?" Chris Buckley was with him too and everything. Anyway, that was my big moment, meeting my [inaudible]- SM (00:09:03): He came to Westchester University. We had him there, and we had him in Phillips Library for the lecture. He was a cool speaker. He was fantastic. He was very tired though. The issue that we had was the auditorium was very hot. It was before they did those renovations. During the program he said, "Can you turn the heat down?" Because it was really affecting him because you could see his face was getting red and everything. RC (00:09:28): How old was he? SM (00:09:30): We're talking mid (19)90s. Mid (19)90s, and he was a major lecturer there too. He was fantastic. When you think of the Boomer generation, what are some of the characteristics, the positive or the negative qualities, when you look at this 74 million population group? RC (00:09:51): Obviously, a group that big it is dangerous to generalize. There is all kinds of people in there. Yeah, when people think of the (19)60s and the Boomers, they think of I guess hippies, and the people who stuck out more. Obviously, not all Boomers were hippies and protesters, and things like that. That is what first comes to mind. I do not know whether it is fair to make generalizations like this. Obviously, we are thinking out loud here. Of course, the events that helped I think sort of shape that generation was the Vietnam War. And of course, a lot of people were understandably skeptical about the war, particularly when it was their own life that was going to be at stake. I think that for technological reasons, with the invention of the pill, the sexual revolution was something else that happened then. For some reason, drug use became more popular then too. These were all things that I associate with the Boomers, and these are all from my perspective are all negative things. I think that the sexual revolution was bad, drug use was bad. I think that the Vietnam War was badly run, but not a, I think what Reagan said, a noble cause. I think that a lot of the anti-war movement was very noble. As I say, all of those are making generalizations about a generation which are generalizations. There were obviously lots of people whom did not participate in the sexual revolution, who did not buy into the counterculture, and it is drug use and all that, and who served honorably and uncomplainingly in Vietnam. SM (00:14:04): Some people criticize the Boomer generation as they say that only 15 percent of that generation were involved in any sort of activism. 85 percent were not. I have read in books. When you figure that there is 74 million and 15 percent were involved in some sort of activism in some way, that is a lot of people. RC (00:14:26): Right. SM (00:14:28): I think sometimes when it is brought up, it is brought up in a way to make it look negative as opposed to looking at the final numbers of those individuals. You are right, other people have told me that it is very hard to generalize 74 million. When you could have 20 people in the room and two are really involved in activism [inaudible]. One of the interesting things that came out, I know when Newt Gingrich came into power in 1994, I read some of his things, speeches and so forth, he made some pretty sharp attacks on the (19)60s generation, the Boomers generation, is a lot of the reasons why we have a lot of problems in our society was a breakdown of the family, the divorce rate, the drug culture, the lack of respect for authority. Even going into the area of victimization. I am not saying he said that, but other people. Then George Will, whenever he gets a chance in his newspaper articles or [inaudible], I have got his books. He will have these little commentaries about this generation in which he is a part, and really make it kind of the same way, that there is more negative than positive. When you hear people like Newt Gingrich, George Will, and others attack this generation for a variety of reasons, [inaudible] problems as they enter society, how do you respond to that? RC (00:15:53): I think that... I assume that they are talking not about every person, but about the sort of social trends that marked the (19)60s. It is certainly true that there are... It is sloppy to suggest, if it is being suggested, that... I will not say sloppy. I assume that that is what they are talking about, and I think that anybody would have to agree that there are problems with saying, "These are things that went on the (19)60s. There were a lot of people, Baby Boomers, that supported these things. Therefore, the whole generation should be criticized." There were lots of people who did not share the zeitgeist. Conversely, a lot of the people who were not Baby Boomers also share some of the blame. These folks are following... The hippies had their older role models, Noam Chomsky, or Herbert Marcuse, and people like that. They were not Baby Boomers. SM (00:17:43): [inaudible]. RC (00:17:45): Yeah, so... Norman Mailer, so forth. These people were not Baby Boomers, so you have got to blame them too. On the other hand, I guess that you cannot let people off the hook just because they themselves maybe were not direct participants. Edmund Burke, I think, said that "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for a good man to do nothing." If your friends are using drugs or protesting, or draft-dodging or whatever, and you do not condemn them or ostracize them, or if you smile and nod, well you are part of the problem. The other thing that is going on though is that people like to simplify history, and put things in categories. That is just part of what... This is very pleasing to think of history in terms of decades and generations. We have the (19)20s, and we think of it as being... Everything that happened in the (19)20s has to fit into this model of the Roaring (19)20s and the (19)30s, and so forth. We do that for the (19)60s too, even though there were things going on in the (19)60s that maybe do not really fit in with that model. And by the same token, we do the same thing with generations. We have the Greatest Generation, we have the Boomers, we have Generation X, and so forth, even though those kinds of generalizations are dangerous too. One thing about the Greatest Generation which gets very good press these days is they delay... Well, if you buy into this, you have got the Greatest Generation, and then you have these no-count Baby Boomers. Well, who raised the Baby Boomers? It was the Greatest Generation. So, if you buy into this they... One thing about the Greatest Generation is they must not have been very good parents, or there was some kind of failure there. Anyway. SM (00:20:51): Yeah, especially one of the qualities that WWII generation supposedly had was to make sure their sons and daughters were not lacking for things, because they went through the Depression, they went through a horrible war, and they did not want their kids to go through what they went through. They gave them everything, but they still rebelled. They did not rebel in the 1950s, but we are going to get into that a minute, the (19)50s. What are your thoughts on the movements? One of the qualities that is often defined when the Boomer generation is all the movements that were either started, or there was a carry-on mentality. Of course, the civil rights movement was already taking place in the (19)50s, and by the time the earliest Boomer is 46, they were like 18, 19. Many of them did go south though in the summer of (19)63. Talk about the anti-war movement, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement, the Native American movement, and the environmental movement. And I know there was even the disability movement was really starting to fledge around that time. Your thoughts on all these movements that came about during this time frame? These movements have been carrying on into today. Are these movements good, bad, or different? Your thoughts on the movements. RC (00:22:12): Again, I think you have to look at them individually, and you have to look at them over time. Some of the movements might have started out okay but then went off the rails, or developed splinter groups that were more problematic than the original movement. I am going to just give you a few examples. You have the anti-war movement, and they are... I guess I would be maybe the least sympathetic with it, particularly to the extent that it became Wallace and even revolutionary with the weathermen and the SDS, and so forth. That was the movement that I think was misconceived to begin with because I think that it was a poor... While the Vietnam War was not well-run, the basic idea of resisting communism was a good idea. Certainly, to suggest that people should dodge the draft, that not only was the war a bad idea, but that the Communists were right, and that it's an okay thing to hamper the war efforts in the United States, all of which is truly more extreme parts of the anti-war movement, I think reprehensible. The other extreme though, I think it is difficult not to be very sympathetic with the civil rights movement with respect to equality for African Americans fighting Jim Crow and segregation. I think that that movement and the Boomers who supported that, it is very... I think that they were right. That said though, some of the... There were excesses later on. Excesses is too gentle a word. The riots, the Black Panthers, things like that were reprehensible too. Feminism, I think it is more of a mixed bag. I think that changing the law so that women have more opportunities was a good thing. On the other hand, there were... I think that the feminist movement came to denigrate traditional female roles which I think that is not okay. There is nothing wrong with being a stay-at-home mom. I think that there are some feminists who suggest there is. You just sort of have to go through each of these movements. I think that some of the other ethnic movements, it's a bad thing for Chicanos to be discriminated against because they are Chicanos, just as it is wrong for African Americans to be discriminated against because they are African Americans. On the other hand, that does not justify violence. It does not justify quotas, racial preferences. Those things are bad. Gay rights, again I would be more nuanced than saying that well it was good or it was bad. I think certainly people should not be beaten up or brutalized because of their sexual orientation. On the other hand, I think that there is nothing wrong with individuals believing, as I do, that having sex with people of the same gender is immoral. That does not mean that we put those people in jail or beat them up, but it does mean that it is okay to say publicly "This is a bad lifestyle," and that it is okay to say that marriage is something that is between men and women, not between two people of the same sex. When you talk about was the gay rights movement justified or not, well it depends on what the specific aim of a particular part of the movement is at a given time. SM (00:29:14): How about the Native American movement, because that was really strong. It identified a lot with some of the more radical elements within the anti-war movement, because of Wounded Knee, and the takeover at Alcatraz, and Dennis Banks and Russell Means. RC (00:29:33): They actually killed people. I think that that is... I do not think that people should violate the law, and they certainly should not kill people, and they should not kill law enforcement officers, which the extreme elements of the Native American movement did. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with consciousness rising and protesting. People are being mistreated because of their ethnic group, that is wrong. There is nothing wrong protesting that and trying to change the laws to reflect that. SM (00:30:32): In 1970, Earth Day happened, and that really put this environmental movement... Of course, we are talking about Copenhagen, and all these issues, Dennis Hayes, and Gaylord Nelson, the Senator, was linked to it. I did not know until I interviewed a guest last week that Dennis Hayes and Gaylord Nelson had to meet with the anti-war movement. They had to meet with the leaders of the anti-war movement before they had Earth Day to make sure that what they were doing would not take away from what the anti-war movement was all about. They were liberals both in terms of bringing this about. Just your thought on that because this has carried on, and this curated an unbelievable divide. Just your thoughts on it, because that really is directly related to a lot of Boomers. RC (00:31:21): Yeah, well once again, I draw this sanction between the vile and a law-abiding, or violent versus the non-violent, and the law-following versus the law-breaking parts of these movements. Killing people or threatening people, or blowing up things because you do not like their environmental policies I think is reprehensible. I think that the... SM (00:32:18): I am always checking to make sure, and it is. RC (00:32:26): Some of the aims of the environmental movement I am very sympathetic with. I think that there was too much pollution that was allowed, and that passing laws to restrict, that pollution made a lot of sense. On the other hand, I think that there are reasonable people who can differ about- RC (00:33:03): More people can differ about a couple of things. One is, how bad the pollution is and what its effects are. And then, also about what kind of government regulation makes sense. We cannot just ban all pollutions because a lot of people would starve to death if we did that, literally. The pesticides, and industrialization, and farming, this is how we feed people. And just a flat out ban on any kind of technology that changes the environment is clearly not something that makes any sense. So, it becomes a line drawing problem of where are we going to draw the line? How much pollution is too much? And, should the government be in the business of micromanaging the private sector or should they try to create proper incentives? And conversely, should they ensure that there are not perverse incentives where people are actually encouraged to exploit resources or pollute. And again, there is this whole managed working environment division of the Justice Department. And reasonable people can disagree about this, there's this whole tragedy of the commons and if there is a role for government. But, I think reasonable people can differ about what the role of the government should be. SM (00:35:22): One of the big groups that came out of this rule was Amnesty International. And boy, they will confront ships and they will try to stop them. RC (00:35:29): Maybe you mean Greenpeace. SM (00:35:31): I mean, yeah, Greenpeace. Excuse me, Greenpeace. RC (00:35:35): Right. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. SM (00:35:35): They will risk their lives to save whales and things like that. But that came as a direct result of, I think of... This generation oftentimes thought themselves as the most unique generation in American history. Its uniqueness. I can remember when I was young in college, a lot of students felt that way because they were going to change everything. They were going to end war, they were going to bring peace, harmony, change the world for the better, and be different than any other generation that preceded them or probably will follow them. So, this uniqueness became a mentality within many of them when they were young. And many of them still have it as they approach (19)60 because of the times they lived in. I have noted that students that I have worked with over the years, whether they be generation Xers, or those born between 1965 and I believe 1992 or something like that, and now you have got the millennials, which is the younger group. I think they were born, excuse me, they were (19)82, excuse me, millennials yeah, until (19)82. And, a lot of the issues that generation Xers had with boomers is that they got tired of hearing about what it was like when they were young. Or, the other extreme, I wish I lived then because there were causes I could get involved in. You had a cause. We do not seem to have any. Now, that was a couple years ago. Your thoughts about this uniqueness attitude that many of the boomers seem to have. RC (00:37:14): Well, I am skeptical of that. I think that one thing that distinguishes liberals from conservatives is, and of course I am a conservative, so I am biased, but I think that conservatism is inherently a little more modest and constrained in its vision of how much any individual and how much any generation can know. And, how much we should be willing to say that, "Well, we do not care about how things have been done. We do not care about other people's opinion. We have figured this out and we know the right way to proceed." I think that that, yeah, I mean, Thomas Sowell has written about this- SM (00:38:38): I like him. RC (00:38:39): ...in a book called, Conflict of Visions. SM (00:38:39): Yeah, I like him. RC (00:38:42): Yeah. And the whole point of that book is there are these two separate, two very distinct visions. And, it goes back, this is sort of a summary of Edmond Burke or Friedrich Hayek. And so, I think that for any generation to say that, "Well, look, we have figured this out. We're unique. Everybody before us, they had it wrong. Everybody that came after us does not know anything. And in fact, the people in our own generation who disagree with us, they are wrong too." I think that that is a very arrogant and misguided approach to making public policy. On the other hand, I think that it is certainly true that for whatever reason, they may have been bad reasons, but for whatever reason, there was more political ferment during the (19)60s. And so, it may have been true that there were more causes to get involved with back then. Now, I am not sure that it was a good idea because I do not think a lot of these causes were a good idea. And, this is something where I disagree with conservatives. Some conservatives say that, well, it is sort of, national greatness conservatives that, "Well, people need a cause. And, they need to believe in something bigger than themselves. And so, the government of the country should provide that." Well, I do not buy that. I mean, I think it is true that people do need to believe in something larger than themselves, but I do not think it's the role of the government to do that. As a Christian, my own view is that the main thing that you ought to believe in that is bigger than yourself is God and serving Him. But even if I were not a Christian, I do not think I would say that, "Well, it is up to the government to give people something to rally around" I mean, okay, if you want something that you want to fight for, well go ahead and do that. But, try to do it in a way where you are not bossing other people around. I mean, if you think that there is a lot of poor people who are suffering and who need to be helped through food or educational opportunities, or whatever, that is fine, go do it. And get together with your friends if you want, and raise money, and buy food for them, or volunteer and go into depressed areas, and help kids after school. That is all great. But, you do not need to say that, "Well, we have figured out that this is the most important thing that needs to be done and we are going to force other people who do not agree with us to give us their money so that we can go do this." SM (00:42:04): You raise a good point, because the people I admire the most are people that oftentimes do things and they do not want publicity. I can remember, and I am not going to put this in the interview, but Charles Barkley, regardless of whether you like or dislike the man and what he has done on TV, and his gambling and all the other stuff, he has given thousands of dollars for scholarships to kids that do not have it. And he said, "I am doing it, but you do not let the word out." He gets very upset. "I am doing it because I want to do it. I do not want to have an article in the newspaper." Now obviously, someone found out about this and they have written things on Charles because he wants to be the Governor of Alabama one day. But, that is an interesting point there. I like the fact that when people do things, it is not because they want the world to know they have done it. It's, they do it because they want to help people. RC (00:42:57): Right. Right. SM (00:43:00): Again, what do you think are the... What was the watershed moment... Want to make sure we do not go over. Yeah. I am almost done with the first half of the tape. What do you think was the watershed moment when the (19)60s began, and the watershed moment when it ended? RC (00:43:20): Well... SM (00:43:24): Let us see here. Do I have to change this tape? Let us see. We have got about a minute I think left, then I will stop. RC (00:43:37): Okay. Briefly, I think you could mark the beginning of the (19)60s in a couple ways. You could say that, well, it is maybe with the civil rights protests that began in Montgomery, which we put it in, actually, the (19)60s, starting in the mid-(19)50s. Or, you could start it with the escalation of the war in Vietnam, which would put it in the (19)63 or (19)64, or something like that. I think the end of that, most people would say it is probably the end of the Vietnam War, or the end of American involvement. I think the Peace Accords in Paris were signed in, I think January (19)73, something like that. So, I think those are sort of how I would bracket it. I mean, clearly, the zeitgeist in the (19)60s lasted a little bit beyond 1969 because you had Kent State and the invasion of Cambodia, and all that stuff. I think that was actually in the (19)70s. SM (00:44:39): Yeah, it is interesting because there is a lot of activity through (19)73, and then all of a sudden, in the fall of (19)73 it just... So, (19)73 is a big year because that is also, we got out of Vietnam, and the activism started to really drop, and a lot of things were happening. In fact, I have written in my little segment, the introduction, that I felt it ended when streaking happened, and that was 1973 in the fall. And someone said to me when I was working OU, "Come to Ohio State." I said, "Why? Is there a protest? 'Oh, no. It is something new called streaking.'" I am going to switch the tape first. If I were to have 500 people, you may respond the same way about generalizing about boomers, too. But, if I were to have 500 people in an auditorium that were, let us say, the first half of the boomer generation, those born between (19)46 and say, (19)56, the one event that had the greatest impact, single event that had the greatest impact on their life, what do you think they would say? And when I say young, I mean really, when they were in elementary or secondary, or college, basically. RC (00:46:25): Well, of course everybody always says that you remember where you were when Kennedy was assassinated, something like that. And then, that may be true, but I am not sure if that really influenced people's lives that much. I think that the things that probably you had a direct impact on people's lives was becoming 18 years old and eligible for the draft. I think that that is probably really affected people, because I think that probably affected a lot of people's political outlook. I do not want to be unduly cynical here, but if you were not wild about the idea of going to Southeast Asia and maybe getting shot at, then it is very easy to want to come up for reasons why your reluctance to do that is justified. And so, you are going to be sympathetic to the anti-war movement. And, as you have sort of indicated, a lot of these movements, they were all interwoven. And so, if you buy into the anti-war movement then you also buy into a lot of these other movements. And, just generally buy into the whole left-wing agenda. And, I think that that probably happened to a lot of people. SM (00:48:23): It is interesting though, I know when I interviewed Ed Foner and Dr. Lee Edwards, Dr. Lee Edwards was adamant, the fact that the Young Americans for Freedom were a conservative organization who was as anti-war as the SDS. And they were conservative, diehard conservatives, and no one has written on it. There has been one book written about this particular group. I have had a lot of reactions. Some people do not remember them, but they have been left out of the history books. But, they were big-time anti-war. And they were to the right, and they were conservatives. I remember Bill Buckley even mentioned it in one of his books about the Young Americans for Freedom. So, there were conservatives who were against the war. RC (00:49:11): Oh, absolutely. SM (00:49:11): Yeah. Yeah. RC (00:49:12): That is true. That is true. And there has always been a strain within the conservative movement of people who, they're anti-Communist, but they are also isolationist, or they are very skeptical about foreign involvement by the United States. We see that even today with Ron Paul, for instance, that kind of, well, with Libertarians and also, people like Russell Kirk, I think, and others like that. And, I am sure it's true. Lee Edwards and Ed Foner were much more familiar with these groups than I was, because it was really a little bit before my time. SM (00:50:02): And Ron Robinson, who I interviewed, was one of the student leaders in that organization, now heads the Young America's Foundation with Pat Coyle. And, he did not even know the extent of what Lee was talking about. Lee's the historian, and he knows. And I said to Lee, "Why do not you write a book?" He has writing too many other books. RC (00:50:25): Yeah, he writes lots of books. SM (00:50:26): But anyways, I want to throw that in. I want to read this one. There were two basic issues I want to concentrate on in this book besides the general questions I have been asking. And then, I am spontaneously going in a different direction. The issue of healing and the issue of trust, which I personally have defined as part of this generation of issues that are affecting them. And, I want to read this. I want to start out by saying that when I was at Westchester University, I took a group of students to meet Senator Edmund Muskie about a year and a half before he passed away. I knew Gaylord Nelson, and Gaylord was able to secure nine meetings with nine senators, because we had brought him to the university. He was such a nice guy, and what a senator he was. He was a statesman. And so, we worked it out so that we met these senators. When we took the students to see Edmund Muskie, it was one of the best student groups we ever had. In fact, three of them have gone on for their PhDs by now. And, I had really picked them because we were going to ask some questions about the (19)68 convention, the tremendous divisions in the country, and all the things. We asked the question, and everybody was excited because this is the one question we wanted to ask them. And the question was this, and this is the way we read it, "Do you feel the boomer generation is still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore this nation apart in their youth? Divisions between black and white, divisions between gay and straight, divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not?" And then, I throw in something here about what role has the wall played in partially healing the veterans and the generation. "Do you feel the boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has 40 years made the statement, time heals all wounds, the truth?" When I ask him this question... And, I know two of the closest students. One just became, I am throwing this in here. I am not going to have an interview, he just became the Director of Admissions at Southern Illinois University. I am so proud of him. He is 38 years old, and he is now been the director of admissions at three schools. PhD. But, when we asked him this, we were expecting the 1968 convention, and he did not even mention it. He had a melodramatic pause. He had, looked like a few tears in his eyes, and he said, "I just got out of the hospital. I have been pretty sick, as you might know. And, I just saw the Ken Burns series on the Civil War." And he recommended that if we did not see it on PBS, that we get the tape. He said, "We have not healed since the Civil War." And then, he went on to talk about the reasons why the 400,000 men who died on both sides, the lost generation of children that we never had, almost a lost generation compared to the numbers we have today. But, that was his response. I thought about it because I know veterans come back to The Wall, and I know that non-veterans come back to The Wall. And, some probably feel guilty that they did not serve when their kids asked them, "What did you do in the war, daddy?" Just your thoughts on whether you feel we have an issue with healing within this generation of 17-some million. I know you cannot break it down, but do you think it is something to be concerned about? RC (00:54:09): Well, I think that people who were on opposite sides during a big conflict probably do have a challenge to overcome that later on in life. And I suppose, that the more dramatic and important the conflict, the greater the challenge is. I mean, being on opposite sides of the barricades in the Civil War, knowing that somebody was shooting at you or shooting at your friends, yeah, that is probably something that is difficult to overcome. The (19)60s were not as dramatic but it is, I guess, more dramatic than whatever divisions there were, say in the (19)80s. There were people that like Reagan and people that did not like Reagan, but we were not shooting at one another the way we were in the Civil War. And we were not even throwing bottles at one another the way we were during the (19)60s. On the other hand, I think there are people who do not like people who disagree with them in any generation. And, they do not like people who disagreed with them... They do not like people who disagree with them now, even if they were in agreement 20 years ago. So, I think it can be over overstated. I mean, I am thinking in my own life, how would I feel about somebody of my generation that I disagreed with back in the day, back in the (19)60s? Well, I do not think I would view that as unforgivable. I do think that I would think that they were wrong, and there might be still a little distress there. SM (00:57:55): The Wall itself has done a pretty good... Jan Scruggs of the book, To Heal a Nation, obviously it has been a fair... You cannot heal a lot of veterans because the wounds will always be there for a lot of the vets. It has done a lot to help veterans and their families remember those who died and those who served. And so, I have been there for the last... I know how important it is to that side. RC (00:58:18): Yeah-yeah. SM (00:58:19): I have seen it. I have always wondered though, I guess, I even asked myself, I did not serve, and I was a college student from (19)66 to (19)70, then I went on to grad school. And, I could not go because I had asthma. Then, I had been in an automobile, not automobile, I was in a very bad accident at my house. And so, I can always say, "Well, these were my reasons." But, I know a lot of vets will look at you with an eye. When they hear asthma they, "Eh." Bronchial asthma, yes. Asthma from weeds because some people went in and were veterans who had problems with weeds like grass. So, I do not know. I just ask this. I have been asking to everybody. It's, "Ah, it's no big deal." And others say, "Yeah, you might have something there." Everybody has to heal on their own. So it's individual, so to speak. But The Wall has done a tremendous job. What do you think when you look at the Vietnam Memorial in Washington? And obviously, you have been there. What did it do for you, and do you think it has gone as far as Jan Scruggs says in his book, To Heal a Nation? RC (00:59:37): Well, I think that memorials do have powerful symbolic value. I mean, that is why we have them, right? And, maybe there is something uniquely powerful and healing about that particular memorial because of the fact that it was a controversial war, and because of the structure of it itself, and that you have all these individual names written on it. That, that helps the recognition. And maybe, veterans of that war are particularly grateful to have that recognition given the fact that it was controversial. Yeah. I mean, I think that that is... I do want to say one thing though. That I think that some of the emotion though that you are talking about, people might feel even without the context of a war. I mean, for instance, I turned 18 in April, 1973, and the Peace Agreement had been signed in January, 1973. And of course, the draft had ended even a year or two before that. So, I was never somebody where going to Vietnam was a real possibility. And then, the next war that the United States was in, I guess was not until Grenada, right? And by that time, I was through law school and in my mid to late twenties. And of course, there was not a draft. There has not been a draft since then. And yeah, I mean, I will tell you, the one regret that I have in my life is that I never wore a uniform. And I look back, and I do not know when I would have... I mean, there was not really a logical time for me to stop what I was doing. I mean, I could have gone into the army or into the service after college, or after law school, or something like that, but there was- SM (01:03:19): I think you can go in right up to 40. RC (01:03:23): Yeah. But I never did, and I regret that. I regret that. So anyway, I mean, I feel that even though I was not somebody who was not serving when other people were being drafted, or when there was a big war going on and I was sort of on the sidelines, and I did not have that, and yet I still have this regret. SM (01:03:48): Yeah. I do not know why I always ask this question. I have asked it to everybody and I have had some interesting responses. Gaylord Nelson was, in his own unique way, always responding in Gaylord Nelson way. And that is, he said, "I do not walk around Washington DC with lack of healing on their sleeve." He said, "But it did affect the body politic. And that is where the effect has been. It is the body politic. You keep bringing it up in just about every war." And we have even, as we are getting later on, when Ronald Reagan said, "America's back," it was back from the (19)60s. And then, George Bush, senior, saying, "Vietnam syndrome is over." Oh, boy. Because, some people really reacted to that, even more than Ronald Reagan. But, I have a question here. The second area is trust. Boomers, in their lives, saw a lot of leaders that lied to them. I am sure the leaders have lied throughout history, but when boomers were young and in college, they saw a president lie to them about getting involved in Vietnam with the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. And, anybody who was up on what was happening knew that was a lie. There were things already written about it. If you were cognizant, and when you were in fifth or sixth grade like I was when President Eisenhower on TV said that, "The u2, Gary Powers was not a spy." I remember him on TV saying that, and then he lied. Why? And, I like him. And then of course, Watergate with Richard Nixon, and the list goes on and on. College students and the people of the (19)60s seen... The Vietnam generation did not trust anybody in position of power or authority, whether it be university or president, college administrators, ministers, rabbis, priests, politicians, heads of corporations, anybody in the leadership role, you cannot trust. And so, I am wondering if this is an issue that we define this generation as a very non-trusting generation. That it might have- SM (01:06:03): It is a very non-trusting generation that might have passed this on to their kids and their grandkids. I preface this again with a question that political science majors, of which I was a history major in political science, is that it is healthy. Political scientists always say it is healthy to challenge government and to not trust government, because that is what a democracy is. Keeps them on their toes. So you have got that extreme, but just your thought on the effect that these leaders have had and their lack of trust in so many leaders when they were young and the effect this may still have on America today. When I say this, I am not only talking about the activists. I am talking about the hundred percent, because subconsciously they all experienced the (19)60s. RC (01:06:50): That is a very interesting question. I do not know the answer to that. It would be interesting to try to figure out if people a hundred years ago were more or less trusting of these various leaders than they are now. I mean, again, there is a danger that each generation thinks that it's experiencing everything for the first time. That, oh, well, nobody else, no other generation has been disillusioned the way we are or is skeptical the way we are or whatever. Of course, it is not true. Each generation thinks that they are the first, but it is really not. Now we think that, oh gosh, the United States is polarized in a way that is never been polarized. There is a lack of civility, et cetera. Well, yes and no. You go back and you look at political campaigns that were run a hundred or 200 years ago, and they were pretty uncivil. I suspect that Southerners, prior to the Civil War were pretty skeptical about President Lincoln and did not trust him, thought he was a liar. I remember my grandfather, he certainly was not somebody... I mentioned him earlier, he was very skeptical about the veracity of different leaders. So, I think that skepticism about politicians maybe is something that is not brand new. Maybe the numbers are much bigger now. Maybe 50 years ago, 10 or 20 percent of the people thought that FDR was a liar, but now 80 percent of the people think that whoever is the president is a liar. So, maybe it has gotten worse. I just do not know. These other leaders that you talk about, the clergy, businessmen, so forth, well, again, I am sure that there were lots of... the whole populous movement was based on skepticism about the good faith of American corporations and businessmen. So, I do not think that they thought that John D. Rockefeller could not tell a lie. I do not know. SM (01:10:23): I know. As follow up, because I can remember Teddy Roosevelt when he was president and served two terms, he was very supportive of William Howard Taft taking over, but he came back in 1912 because he said Taft was a liar. RC (01:10:39): Yeah. SM (01:10:40): Lied. "He said he was going to follow through on my policies and did absolutely nothing." Friends to bitter enemies. RC (01:10:47): Right. Yeah. SM (01:10:49): So there is a lack of trust there. I think of examples, I always think of how the population responds, whether they respond... The activism in the thirties was something also like the (19)60s. I want you to respond to, what do these things mean to you? They do not have to be very lengthy or anything, but you have already mentioned what the wall means to you. RC (01:11:13): Yeah. SM (01:11:13): So what does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? RC (01:11:19): Well, I remember more about Kent State than about Jackson State. I have to say that my recollection of Kent State was that it may well be that... It was a tragedy, clearly. But I remember when I was in the Civil Rights Division, learning that I think the Justice Department Civil Rights Division prosecuted the guardsmen there. I was very skeptical about that. I am not an expert on the facts, but this was a protest. Things were being thrown at these guardsmen. My instinct is to be sympathetic. Now, if the bottles had been thrown five minutes ago and the protestors were a different group of protestors and they were 300 yards away, well that is different. I just know about the facts, but that is my recollection, is that well, it was a tragedy. It was real wrong that these guardsmen did what they did, but the protestors should not have been throwing bottles at the guardsman either or whatever they were. SM (01:13:01): Watergate. RC (01:13:06): Well, I think that Nixon lied. He covered up. He abused government authority, abused trust, all of that. Was it an impeachable offense? I do not know. Again, I would have to go back and look at it. I mean, I remember the response of a lot of people was that, well, look, yeah, all what Nixon did was wrong, but it is not particularly new. These were things that other political leaders had done, and that to a substantial extent, this was an excuse that was seized upon by Nixon's political enemies. Example was a popular button at the time was, I was for impeachment before Watergate. Well, I mean, it was meant to show how right the person was. But I remember, I think it was Bill Buckley saying, well, exactly. That is the mindset, and that makes us skeptical about whether impeachment really makes sense here. I mean, I do not want to be a Nixon apologist. I did not like Nixon. In 1972, I was not old enough to vote yet, but we had a mock election at my high school. I supported the third party candidate then. John Schmitz was his name. Nixon was not a particularly conservative president, and there were a lot of things that he did. So, I am not a great fan of Nixon, but I think that I like Nixon's enemies even less. I am open to the suggestion that Watergate was seized upon by Nixon's political enemies to get rid of him. All that said, though, the way he handled Watergate was wrong not only politically, but also morally. SM (01:16:04): Goes right into enemies list. That was my next- RC (01:16:07): Yeah. SM (01:16:08): Just your thought on his enemies list. It is a long one. RC (01:16:12): Yeah, it was a long one. I think that it was described as being put together and that the machinery of the federal government was going to be used to screw, and those were his words, our political enemies. Well, that is wrong. I cannot do that. SM (01:16:31): How about Woodstock? RC (01:16:32): It was a bunch of stupid hippies. That would be my two-word response. I think there was some good music there. But was it a great moment for a Western civilization? No, I think it was probably not. SM (01:17:03): Going to have to put the Summer of Love in there too, which was (19)67. RC (01:17:07): Yeah. I mean, again, I think that I do not like the counterculture. I like the culture. SM (01:17:17): That is the next word. It is counterculture, because Theo Roszak wrote that very historic book called The Making of a Counterculture. He just retired. I am going to interview him. He just retired from the University of California at Hayward. He has written a brand-new book now on the Boomers in old age, some of his projections. I am not reading it until I interview him, but just the term counterculture. RC (01:17:45): You know what I said. I do not like the counterculture. I like the culture. The culture that was being countered was, I take it Western civilization and American culture in particular. I think that American culture is good and does not need to be countered. It can certainly be improved. To the extent that the counterculture was about getting rid of racial discrimination or stopping the dumping of poisonous chemicals into the water, our rivers, yeah, that is fine. But if it is about using drugs, having promiscuity, rejecting religion, no, I think that the culture is much better than the counterculture. SM (01:19:17): Two different groups, but the Hippies and the Yippies. The Yippies were Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin and the Youth International Party. RC (01:19:25): Right. SM (01:19:26): Different. RC (01:19:27): Yeah. Well, I did not like the Hippies, and I like the Yippies even less. I mean, I guess the Yippies are a more radicalized and politicized version of the Hippies. I reject their Yippies political agenda and the lawless means they would use to pursue it. The Hippies, I would define I guess as people who embrace the counterculture, particularly younger people who got into long hair and bell bottoms and drug use and promiscuity and all that. SM (01:20:11): We have already set a few things. Students for Democratic Society and the Weathermen, they were different. RC (01:20:18): Well, sure. SM (01:20:20): I know for a fact that many members of SDS, when the Weatherman started, they split. It is over. Wanted nothing to do with that. So, those are two unique groups, even though they are part of SDS. Just your thoughts on SDS from its beginning, Tom Hayden created with the Port Huron Statement. Just your thoughts on those two entities. RC (01:20:47): Well, it was very left wing from the start. As a conservative, therefore I was unsympathetic with them from the start. So long as the agenda was merely dissenting and not lawless and revolutionary and violent, I would be unsympathetic but tolerant. But once an organization starts breaking the law, killing people, blowing up buildings and so forth, then they should be treated as criminals. SM (01:21:35): How about Vietnam Veterans Against the War? Because they took over the anti-war movement when SDS died. RC (01:21:41): Yeah. SM (01:21:42): They were major. RC (01:21:44): Well again, I mean, would draw the same distinction. I was anti-antiwar, but so long as the... the parts of the antiwar movement that were simply dissenting, you have to tolerate dissent in a democratic society until it becomes violent or lawless. I do not know enough about the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. I guess my-my recollection, I do not associate them with the violence and lawlessness of, well certainly of the Weatherman. SM (01:22:42): What do you think were the most important books that were read? What did you read when you were young? What do you think were the most important books for the Boomer generation? What were people reading then? RC (01:22:57): Well, and I mentioned from my side of the aisle, I was a fan of Buckley's. Of course, Buckley was publishing books that I remember reading, books that were... I mean, a lot of them were compilations of his columns and other essays, but he also had some standalone books too. I think The Unmaking of a Mayor, which was his [inaudible] running for Mayor of New York City against Lindsay, Up from Liberalism, I think. SM (01:23:39): God and Man at Yale was classic. RC (01:23:40): Why, sure. Yeah. I think that was written in the early (19)50s, McCarthy is an amazing and so forth. So yeah, I think that Russell Kirk, The Conservative Mind, there were lots of... the whole staff of National Review, James Burnham, Whittaker Chambers. Goodness knows that was a little bit earlier, but I think that those were all important books for conservatives. For the left, I remember The Greening of America by Charles Reich, reading that. Garry Wills was sort of an interesting guy who started out as, I guess as a conservative and became liberal. I remember reading Nixon Agonistes and I am not sure- SM (01:24:58): Classic book. RC (01:24:58): Yeah. I do not know how I would classify that. I think that Wills may have written that when he was in transition. But I remember it was an important and much read and discussed book then. Well, and then from the Martin Luther King, Why We Cannot Wait, his speeches, those were obviously very important books. SM (01:25:32): Your thoughts on the music and the art of the era? Obviously, we are talking about rock music, Motown, folk. What was the music that really turned on you and some of the conservative Boomers of that period? I thought some of this music appealed to everyone. RC (01:25:51): Yeah, no, I think that is true. I think that is true. SM (01:25:52): They had so many social messages in their music too. RC (01:25:55): That is true. Although I do not know that there really were very many, that there was much conservative movement, conservative music, conservative, popular music back then. SM (01:26:13): Burl Ives. RC (01:26:16): I guess The Ballad of the Green Beret. SM (01:26:19): He was a liberal, man. RC (01:26:22): But I enjoyed that music. I tell you, I am Bob Dylan fan. I like him. Of course, a lot of Dylan's work it is hard to... it is not maybe as easily pigeonholed, particularly in retrospect, as people think. Dylan himself is an interesting character. I do not know if you have read- SM (01:26:56): Yeah, I have read quite a bit on him and actually about the song, Like a Rolling Stone. People have read the words. You take away different meanings. RC (01:27:06): Yeah. Yeah. SM (01:27:07): In fact, one person I interviewed said, "Listen to the words. He is very critical of the Boomer generation. Listen to the words on a Rolling Stone." Now that might not be what he was later, when he was with Joan Baez, but just listen to the words. RC (01:27:24): Yeah. Well, and his chronicles and his memoir, I mean I was sort of surprised, but he talks about that era. He thought that Goldwater was a great guy. He singles him out among politicians like, "Yeah, I read. Oh, you really made a lot of sense to me." I liked a lot of the (19)60s' movement. I would say that probably the more stridently political it was, the more problem I would have. But a lot of it, you can convince yourself to like it. I remember Emerson, Lake and Palmer, the song Lucky Man. SM (01:28:16): With the eagle or the swan or whatever it was, or a dove. It was a dove on the cover. RC (01:28:24): Yeah. SM (01:28:24): Yeah. RC (01:28:27): I guess their biggest hit was probably Lucky Man. Right? SM (01:28:29): Mm- hmm. RC (01:28:32): I am sure it is supposed to be very sarcastic in characterizing this guy who was killed as being somehow lucky. But you read it, I said, "Well, it would not be such a bad way to go," to live and die. But no, the Beatles obviously have great music. The Rolling Stones had great music. Rolling Stones is another group that is interesting, that they certainly were countercultural and not role models, but their music was not really very political. SM (01:29:17): Well, I got two more questions and then I am just going to read some names, just quick responses and then we will be done. The one question is, there were three... someone corrected me and said there are four, but I am going to continue to say there are three slogans that really defined the era. I would like the one that you feel defines the era more than the other or a combination. One of them was Malcolm X's By Any Means Necessary. Of course, that was on a lot of residence halls and colleges. The second one was Bobby Kennedy, who... actually, I think it was a Henry David Thoreau quote. He said, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not." Then the third one was a Peter Max poster that was very popular on college campuses in the early (19)70s. On that poster it said, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." So those are three different slogans of an era, one being more radical, one more hippie-ish, and one sense of responsibility, the idea of making a difference in the world for other people. Your thoughts on those three? And again, I am going to make sure... this tape may be going to an end here. Yeah, I am going to... Okay, here you go. RC (01:31:08): Yeah. I was trying to think if I can recall other catchphrases from the (19)60s, burn baby burn, do not trust anybody over 30. SM (01:31:31): It was Cleaver [inaudible] kept saying that. I cannot remember what it was. RC (01:31:37): Yeah. Well, I guess of those, the one that... I guess the two that I would pick out as emblematic are the Bobby Kennedy and the Malcolm X one. Chronologically, the Kennedy one may have come after the Malcolm X one. I am not sure. But I think that the Kennedy one can unfortunately degenerate into the Malcolm X one. The reformist impulse that the Kennedy quote shows is everybody's in favor of reform. Nobody thinks that the status quo is perfect. I mean, Edmund Burke believed in reform. I think Burke said that when we change the existing institutions, we should approach the body politic as a son approaches the wounds of his father. You should be very gentle, very careful in the way that you treat those wounds and in the way that you try to make things better. The most important thing is to do no harm. When you start saying that, well, we're going to do things by any means necessary, that we have figured out what needs to be done and we do not care about process, we do not care about consensus, we do not care about following the rules in order to bring about what we think needs to be brought about, then you lose me. I think that you should lose anybody who is responsible. I think that unfortunately in the (19)60s, a lot of this understandable reformist impulse degenerated into the lawlessness and violence of by any means necessary. SM (01:34:51): What were the photographs or the pictures that stand out in your mind that really caught your attention during this time, that had the greatest impact on you? I have three that I will mention after you respond. And then there is a fourth that someone told me, "How could you forget that one?" RC (01:35:13): Well, I think that when I think of the (19)60s, I think of Vietnam. I guess the two photos of Vietnam that come to mind are the South Vietnamese official summarily executing the Vietnam guy and then the famous naked little girl running from the Napalm. SM (01:35:45): Kim Phuc. Yeah. RC (01:35:45): Yeah. SM (01:35:46): Mm-hmm. RC (01:35:47): I think those are the ones that come to mind about Vietnam. I think of, I guess maybe pictures of the Kennedy assassination, the still photos. I think of... I mean this does not really have anything to do with what we have been talking about, but the men walking on the moon. In terms of the Civil Rights Movement, I do not know. I can picture different photographs of Martin Luther King and other civil rights figures, but I cannot really think of a particular one. SM (01:36:53): There are, I think four pictures that are in the top 100 of the 20th century. One of them is the girl over the body at Kent State. RC (01:37:04): I could think of that one. Yeah. I was going to say that one. SM (01:37:06): That is one I was thinking of. That was Mary Ann Vecchio. Then the other one is Tommie Smith and John Carlos in the (19)68 Olympics in Mexico City with their fists up. RC (01:37:15): Right. SM (01:37:16): You hit the third one of mine. What was it now? Oh yeah, Kim Phuc, who we actually brought to Westchester University. But one that I was told that you cannot forget is the Mỹ Lai Massacre, dead bodies and I do not know. RC (01:37:32): Well, I was thinking about that, but I do not remember... I remember pictures of Calley, but I do not remember that photo. SM (01:37:37): Yeah, there are others. Yeah. RC (01:37:39): Yeah. SM (01:37:40): Of course, Spiro. The last question before, I just get the names here now, and I just want to get back to the (19)50s. Now, you obviously are younger than I am. Of course, Boomers, the frontline Boomers start going into seventh grade around 1960, (19)59, (19)60. So the thing that always puzzles me, and I would like your feelings on it, what was it about the 1950s that shaped this generation? I know we had Eisenhower as a president. He was a gentlemanly old man, but he was war a hero. The kids of this era grew up watching Mickey Mouse Club. All the westerns on TV, my golly, all these westerns were always, the Indians were the bad people and the cowboys. You had Howdy Doody for the real young ones, Rootie Kazootie. You had The Ed Sullivan Show. You had the black and white TV, three channels. The list goes on and on, on the types of TV shows that were on in the (19)50s. But parents are trying to give as much as they could to their kids. Of course, we're not talking about all the African American kids or others, but even in that period, there seemed to be a more stable family unit, even within the African American community in the- Well, the family unit, even within the African American community in the 1950s. RC (01:39:04): It is true. SM (01:39:05): Much more stable unit with a mother and father. They may not have had a TV set, but there were a lot of things happening, and then you get into the (19)60s or the beginning of the (19)60s when President Kennedy became president, and I know the war and the draft and all these other things, but there had to be something as children are growing up, given all this stuff, and they were rebelling against their parents, the generation gap, and all the other things. How did this happen? And two things that I remember. I can remember as a little boy overhearing the McCarthy hearings on TV and this man screaming saying, "You are a communist," and all this. I can remember that, and obviously the threat of nuclear war and all the other things, but my friends did not never seem affected by that. And then, of course, the beat generation where anybody that knew about the beats, they were the first to rebel against the status quo. There is a lot of stuff happening here. Just your thoughts on what was it about the (19)50s that shaped the boomer generation? Forget the (19)60s and the anti, all this stuff. What was it about it? RC (01:40:22): Well, I think the conventional wisdom would be that, well, the (19)50s were very stayed conservative era and repressive. Repressive of women, repressive of racial minorities, and that the (19)60s generation got fed up with that and wanted to end repression and to have more freedom, more equality, so that is what the rebellion against the (19)50s was about. I am not a social scientist, I am not a historian, but I am skeptical of that view. I think that there certainly was discrimination in the (19)50s, but of course the discrimination against minorities and women was not new in the 1950s. It was in the (19)40s and the (19)30s and the (19)20s and so forth, too. So it is kind of unfair to single out the (19)50s. In fact, the (19)50s in some respects, starting to move in the right direction on these issues. I think that a more cynical explanation of what happened in the 60s would be this. It was not a rebellion against the 1950s at all. That what you had was a generation that was spoiled. As we discussed before, the greatest generation had gone through the Depression and they did not want their kids to suffer, and so they indulged them. So you had that, you had a couple of technological changes with the pill, which made it much easier and less risky to have premarital sex. You had a continuing decline in traditional morality and religion. Again, this was not something that began in the (19)50s, but I think it maybe was continuing in the (19)50s. And then, the catalyst was that you had the Vietnam War and people for largely self-interested reasons, rebelled not against the (19)50s, but against this war. And as a result of that, and as a result of the fact that the ideology of the anti-war movement was interwoven with a lot of other left-wing ideology, bought in to the rest of the left's agenda, which did include rejection of all that was bad and good about the 1950s and American culture generally. I think Midge Decter wrote a book, which I have not read, called Liberal Parents, Radical Children, which I think may talk about some of this. SM (01:46:04): Good. How many years ago was that? I probably have that book. RC (01:46:09): Yeah, she must have written that I think in the (19)70s. SM (01:46:18): We're at the end here in terms of just responding to some of the names, just quick response. They do not have be any kind of great detail. There might be a few smaller terms here too, but I am going to start out with just your thoughts. Jane Fonda? RC (01:46:35): What do you want from me, a thumbs up or a thumbs down? SM (01:46:38): Just your thoughts, just a few words, what you think of her. RC (01:46:42): Well, yeah, I did not like her. She was, if not a traitor, she certainly... And if not, she did not engage in treason, she certainly gave aid and comfort to the enemy. SM (01:46:56): How about Tom Hayden? RC (01:46:59): It was... At a minimum, I am very unsympathetic to his political agenda, and my recollection is that the agenda was not only objectionable, but advocated lawbreaking and... Well, I will not say violence in this case, but certainly breaking the law. SM (01:47:46): And a follow-up is his close friend, Rennie Davis. RC (01:47:49): I do not remember Rennie Davis. SM (01:47:52): How about Abby Hoffman and Jerry Ruben? RC (01:47:55): Well, again, they were certainly on the Wallace part of the protests. Whether they were... I think that they certainly tolerated violence if they did not engage in violence themselves. SM (01:48:14): Chicago Eight, or seven, when they took Bobby Seal away. RC (01:48:18): Well, again, I would put them in the same category. I do not remember how... I mean, I am sort of drawing these distinctions between dissent, lawless dissent, and then violent dissent. SM (01:48:30): Right. RC (01:48:30): And the Chicago Eight, that was a trial about Wallace. I do not know what it was about. Well, I guess, actually did not they blow up a monument or something? I cannot remember if that was part of the- SM (01:48:45): Well, I know they took over a monument, but that was a whole group of people, but they did not blow it up though. RC (01:48:49): Yeah. Oh, okay. Maybe- SM (01:48:51): I have not asked this before, but since you're a lawyer, what do you think of William Kunstler? RC (01:48:56): Well, again, I do not like him. I think that he abused the legal system, acted very irresponsibly. SM (01:49:09): The premier of his documentary is Saturday. There is a documentary coming. He and Leonard Wineglass worked together in Chicago. RC (01:49:16): Yeah. SM (01:49:18): Timothy Leary. RC (01:49:23): Irresponsible. Advocate of drug use. SM (01:49:27): Dr. Benjamin Spock. RC (01:49:33): He wrote a decent book on child-rearing, but was wrong about the Vietnam War. SM (01:49:41): How about William Sloane Coffin? RC (01:49:44): Also wrong about the war. SM (01:49:50): How about the Black Panthers? And I am going to list them because there is five of them that are well known: Bobby Seale, Huey Newton, Angela Davis, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver. There is five of them. They were well known. The other one was murdered, Norman, in Chicago. RC (01:50:07): Well, the Panthers were not only dissenters, but they were lawless and violent dissenters, and they killed people. David Horowitz, I think, was well written about this. I cannot remember... I mean, well, I do not remember anything about Kathleen Cleaver. Angela Davis, I remember, and I remember that she was convicted of helping a... Oh, I guess then the conviction was overturned on basically a technicality, and now she is ironically a law professor. She is a devout Communist, so I do not like her. SM (01:51:09): Kathleen, by the way, is a law professor at Emory. RC (01:51:12): Is that right? SM (01:51:12): A very good law professor. RC (01:51:14): That is funny. Eldridge Cleaver, Huey Newton and- SM (01:51:23): Bobby Seale. RC (01:51:23): ... Bobby Seale, I would have to read up on which did what. I think that Cleaver was actually convicted of rape at one point, in addition to what he did with the Black Panthers. I think that, I cannot remember if it was Huey Newton or Bobby Seale that was killed eventually in a drug related- SM (01:51:58): Huey. He ended up getting a PhD too. RC (01:52:07): Yeah. SM (01:52:07): He was a smart guy. RC (01:52:08): Yeah. Well, I think that he's the one that David Horowitz talks about in his memoirs the most. Yeah, being smart, but very dangerous. SM (01:52:16): How about the Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, Shirley Chisholm, Gloria Steinem, the feminists? RC (01:52:29): I actually think of Chisholm more as, not principally as a feminist, but- SM (01:52:36): Black, female politician, ran for President. RC (01:52:39): Right. As I said, I think that the feminists, I sympathy with providing more opportunities for women, but not sympathetic with the denigration of traditional female roles, which should also be things that could be chosen. And I think some of them, I think had a sort of generally liberal agenda, and so I would disagree with her about that. SM (01:53:40): Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew. RC (01:53:46): Well, I think that both of them did a lot of... Really let down Republicans and conservatives through their law-breaking. In both instances, I think that there are those who would say that, well, the penalty that they paid was disproportionate to the laws they broke, but nonetheless, they did break the law and I think they let us down. SM (01:54:47): I did not mention two other Black Panthers, H. Rap Brown and Stokely Carmichael. They were big. RC (01:54:53): Yeah, yeah. And I put them in the same category. Advocates of violence. I think that Rap Brown is back in prison. SM (01:55:00): He is in jail. I think he is there for the rest of his life. RC (01:55:08): Yeah. SM (01:55:11): John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy? RC (01:55:16): Well, I think that John Kennedy is greatly overrated as a president, but is a much more conservative president than is remembered. He was strongly anti-communist. I think his views, he would have a very hard time getting nominated to anything in the Democratic Party these days. Bobby Kennedy, I think was also somebody who had, I think he was becoming more liberal as he got older before he was killed, but I think his... Both of them I think are more fondly remember today than they would have been had they not been tragically assassinated. SM (01:56:43): How about Teddy Stein? RC (01:56:47): Well- SM (01:56:48): Some people say he was probably the greatest senator during this timeframe in the (19)70s, when he became 62 to now. RC (01:56:58): Well, he certainly was an effective senator. I did not share his agenda, and I think that his significant faults were all whitewashed during the mourning over his death. And I think that some of that is understandable. When somebody dies, that is not the time to point out their faults, but he could be a very nasty politician as witness what he did to Robert Bork and had a personal life that was at least for long stretches, immoral, and even criminal. SM (01:58:41): How about Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern? RC (01:58:47): Well, I think that both of them are, unlike Kennedy, I think are personally very well-behaved, moral men. McGovern was a war hero, and I am not aware of anyone that is criticized their character. They are both political liberals, so I disagree with that, but I do not think that they had the personal failings that the Kennedy has had. SM (01:59:40): How about LBJ and Hubert Humphrey? RC (01:59:45): Well, very different. I mean, I guess, they had similar politics. Again, both of them, I did not share their politics. I think that Humphrey was someone, again, whose personal life and personal morality, I have not heard criticized. Johnson was a much rougher character. SM (02:00:20): Couple more here. George Wallace? RC (02:00:28): Well, he began as a racist demagogue and eventually became just a demagogue. I mean, think that he shed some of his racism. He is somebody who is political bottom line, I shared in many respects in terms of being more accepted in the civil rights area, but in terms of the war, the rejection of the counterculture, I was sympathetic, but he was, I think somebody who thinking conservatives were never entirely comfortable with. SM (02:01:33): Daniel and Phillip Berrigan, Catholic priests. RC (02:01:37): Yeah. I sort of have them same category as Sloane Kaufman. There were a lot of mainline clergy who were opposed to the war, and I do not remember... I did not share their rejection of the war. I do not think that... I think you can be a good Christian and also support the Vietnam War. I cannot remember whether to what extent they were not only dissenters, but also broke the law- SM (02:02:35): They did. They threw blood on nuclear weapons, and then they also destroyed direct records. RC (02:02:40): Yeah. SM (02:02:42): Barry Goldwater and Dwight Eisenhower. RC (02:02:46): Well, I liked Goldwater. SM (02:02:57): Yeah, it is the first time. I will turn this off. RC (02:02:58): I think Goldwater was hero to conservatives during the (19)60s, and I think Eisenhower was a president who for a long time was underrated, but I think there is now more recognition that he was a very effective and good president. SM (02:03:22): How about Harry Truman when boomers were babies? RC (02:03:29): Yeah. I think that in terms of foreign policy, Truman largely did a good job, domestic policy. He was a liberal, and I think less so. SM (02:03:52): Daniel Ellsberg, Pentagon papers. RC (02:03:57): Yeah. As I recall, he stole and made public classified information. SM (02:04:24): Right. RC (02:04:27): Which the Pentagon papers were, and you should not do that. Even if you think that... I mean, this again gets to this conservative point that even if you're convinced you're right, that does not mean that you break the law. SM (02:04:54): John Dean? RC (02:05:13): I know that he was an excellent White House official and was one of the first people to blow the whistle, to reveal what the administration had done with Watergate, but I do not remember much else about him. SM (02:05:55): Muhammad Ali? RC (02:05:57): Was a great boxer. I did not share his politics, but he was not a political philosopher. I guess the question is whether he was a draft dodger or somebody who, for legitimate religious reasons did not want to serve. I am more inclined to the former view than the latter, but I have no window into his soul. SM (02:06:53): Woodward and Bernstein? RC (02:06:57): Good reporters. I have no objection to reporters doing their job. SM (02:07:13): Yeah. You already responded to Woodward and Bernstein. RC (02:07:18): Yeah, I think they were reporters doing their job. SM (02:07:22): William Westmoreland, the guy who oversaw the- RC (02:07:26): Yeah. No, he was the general in charge for a lot of the time during Vietnam. I am not really in a position to critique- SM (02:07:39): The ERA and why it failed? RC (02:07:42): Well, I think it failed largely because of the efforts of Phyllis Schlafly. I think that she was right to oppose it. The problem with the ERA is that nobody knew, and nobody still knows, what exactly it would do. And it does not make sense to amend the Constitution for what was essentially symbolic reasons when you do not know with a fair degree of certainty what the actual effects of that amendment are going to be. We already have the 14th amendment, which makes it very difficult for governments at any level to engage in sex discrimination. Nobody is in favor of prohibiting sex discrimination to the same degree that race discrimination is prohibited; and yet, I mean, there is a good argument that the Equal Rights Amendment would do that. And so, does that mean that, for instance, the military cannot make any distinctions with respect to sex? That sexual distinction is not going to be allowed with respect to government jobs where it is a bonafide occupational qualification? For instance, hiring prison guards or things like that, medical research. I mean, it purports to be a categorical ban on sex discrimination. I think that nobody is really in favor of a categorical ban on sex discrimination. SM (02:10:06): Harvey Milk, because he is the epitome of the gay and lesbian movement. RC (02:10:11): Yeah. I just do not know enough about that. Again, I said at the outset, I think that gay people should not be beaten up or jailed or anything like that; but on the other hand, I think that objection to homosexuality is not the same thing as racial discrimination or gender discrimination. SM (02:11:01): Tet. RC (02:11:04): Well, I think that... I guess it is now pretty much accepted that while it was a military failure for the communists in Vietnam, the Tet Offensive was a political defeat for the good guys of Vietnam and that the media bears some of the blame for that. SM (02:11:51): I am down to the final thing, which is the final presidents that we are going to ask about, but since you were a lawyer, I cannot leave without asking you, just a quick thought on Roe V. Wade- SM (02:12:03): Just a quick thought on Roe v. Wade and the two civil rights bills that President Johnson signed in (19)64 and (19)65. We're talking about three major events. Roe v. Wade was in the (19)70s, but these are major decisions in boomer lives. RC (02:12:18): Yeah. SM (02:12:18): So just your thoughts on the two civil rights acts. I have not asked this to other people. I am only asking it to lawyers. RC (02:12:26): Well, I think that one point that I always make about the two pieces of civil legislation is that in both houses, the percentage of Republicans who supported it was higher than the percentage of Democrats who supported it. Both pieces of legislation, yeah. And that is something that is frequently forgotten. SM (02:12:50): Is that because Everett Dirksen was such a big supporter of it. Because Everett was a big supporter. RC (02:12:55): Yeah, he was. And that would explain the Senate. It would not necessarily explain the House. I think that part of it was because there were so many Democrats at that time, so the Democrats were opposed to it. Yeah. But anyway, it shows, I think the Republicans now do not get enough credit for that. I think that both bills obviously had much good in them and were certainly well-intentioned. I think that in both cases, the way that the bureaucrats and the judges subsequently interpreted and enforced them turned them on their heads to some extent, so that instead of prohibiting discrimination across the board the way they were written and intended, they now are interpreted to allow, and in some places require politically correct discrimination on the basis of race and ethnicity. The Roe versus Wade was a very bad Supreme Court decision. There is nothing in the Constitution, one way or the other, about abortion. And it was a classic instance of judicial activism for the court to read such a constitutional right into the Constitution. And it has had all kinds of bad consequences. Not only bad consequences in the sense that there are lots of dead babies because of it, but also bad consequences in that it has removed the whole abortion discussion from the political and legislative arena and put it in the courts, which are not really equipped to deal with those issues. SM (02:15:09): I am going to end with the Presidents, because we have already talked about many of them up to the 1970s. Just your thoughts on Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter. RC (02:15:29): Well, I think that Ford will be remembered positively for the role he played in the nation's healing. After Nixon, we needed a Gerald Ford. We needed a very down to earth man of strong, positive character who was a quite unpolarizing figure. Carter was one of the, I think, least successful Presidents of the century, partly because his policies did not make any sense, partly because of his own personality. And I think the failings of his personality have become more evident since he left office. It was just a very... SM (02:17:12): How about Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr.? Both of them. I am going to turn this- (02:17:24): Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr. RC (02:17:27): Well, I think Reagan will be remembered as one of the great Presidents, not only of the 20th century but also in American history, because of his leadership in bringing the Cold War to a successful conclusion, and also to returning the United States to free market principles at a time when we were headed away from them. And more generally, for a renaissance of conservative leadership. George Bush, Bush 41, I think that he was an unsuccessful President in terms of persuading people that he knew he was doing in terms of domestic policy. But I think that he may still be remembered well by historians because of his foreign policy. SM (02:19:13): The Gulf War. RC (02:19:15): Well, even before the Gulf War, he presided over the demise of the Soviet Union and the liberation of Eastern Europe. And that was a very critical period, and it could have gotten screwed up, but he did not screw it up. SM (02:19:49): The last two, obviously, Bill Clinton and George Bush. And I say these two gentlemen, because in some of my interviews people say these two gentlemen really define the boomer generation. And they give me their reasons. Even though they one was a conservative and one's ... I am not sure if Bill is truly a ... I think he is more center than what his wife's turned out to be. But what is it about them that people would say that both these men truly define the boomer generation? And then your overall thoughts on the [inaudible] Presidents? RC (02:20:27): Well, they were boomers. And I guess they were the first Presidents who were boomers. And I suppose in some respects, they were on opposite sides during the (19)60s. Clinton avoided serving in the war and smoked pot, even if he did not inhale. He certainly seemed to have bought into the sexual revolution. And I think you are right that to call him just a liberal is maybe an oversimplification, but certainly more liberal than Bush. I actually think that it's more problematic to call Bush a conservative than it is to call Clinton a liberal. And of course, Bush was not exactly a war hero either, nor was he somebody who eschewed mind-altering substances. But I think it would be hard to argue that Clinton was an unsuccessful President. I mean, he was President during a period of peace and prosperity. And I think that the extent to which he deserves credit for either of those, it is up for debate. And you can argue that by not being more proactive with respect to terrorism, that he sowed the seeds for 9/11. So I do not think he will be badly remembered because of the substance of his presidency. I think that he will always be associated with Monica Lewinsky, which is too bad for him, but I think it is also too bad for all of us. Bush, I said that I am not sure that you really can characterize him as conservative. I think that in terms of domestic policy, there are many respects that he was not a conservative. He certainly was not a small government conservative. He cut taxes. I suppose that that is conservative. But he also increased federal spending in lots of ways. In my area, a mixed record at best in terms of civil rights. I think that history will judge him based on the War on Terror and how that turns out. That was certainly his top priority. And I do not know enough, and it may be that nobody really knows enough yet to know how successful he was, to what extent what he did is the reason why there were no subsequent successful attacks in the United States, whether the progress he made in fighting Al-Qaeda and killing or capturing its leaders made a big difference. We do not know yet. And of course, depending on how this President does, that will affect how he has judged. SM (02:25:26): A question I asked earlier about the trust factor, about how many boomers did not trust because leaders did things; well, as boomers’ approach senior citizen status, as the frontline boomers are now 62 years old, eligible for social security, the last two Presidents have also done things that are just the same old SOS, as they say. President Clinton being on television, "I did not have sex with that woman," and then George Bush, the weapons of mass destruction. As many people believe, there's two liars right there again. So it is just some people interpret it as such. RC (02:26:04): Well, I do not know. Of course, I am a conservative Republican, so maybe I have my own prejudices, but I think those are two very different statements. And I think that Clinton's statement that he did not have sex with Monica Lewinsky is either a flat-out lie, or what would in some ways be even worse, a sort of ... I forget how he worded it exactly, but something like, "Well, since I did not have actual vaginal intercourse, therefore I did not have sexual" ... you know. It would almost be better to lie, I think, than to mislead somebody and pretend that you're telling them the truth, the whole truth, which is what you would have there. I am not convinced, and I am not sure that anybody ... well, there probably are some people, but I am certainly not convinced that Bush, at the time he said that there were weapons of mass destruction, did not believe that there were weapons of mass destruction. SM (02:27:38): Colin Powell said it, and many people think that ruined his career. RC (02:27:40): Yeah. I mean, if you make a statement that turns out not to be true, but you thought it was true, that is not a lie. SM (02:27:49): Right. I agree. RC (02:27:49): You have made a false statement, but it is not a lie. A lie, there has to be intent. So if Bush knew that there were not weapons of mass destruction and was deliberately making a false statement, okay, well that is a lie. And truth be told, that would be a bigger lie than lying about sex, because the stakes are higher when you are telling a lie in order to justify getting the United States into a war as opposed to trying to save your own political high. But I do not think it was a lie. SM (02:28:32): I end by saying that President Obama's of course the last President of the boomers, and he is a boomer. He would have been two years old in the very end, but he still is a boomer. And of course, [inaudible] does not remember all this stuff, but it's too early to judge him overall. A lot of people want to judge him early. But- RC (02:28:51): Nobel prize. SM (02:28:53): Yeah. That really shocked me. But a lot of people that were involved in the anti- war movement, a lot of the liberals from that period, a lot of my friends feel that finally, after all these years, we had one of ours back in there. It was not Clinton. It is Obama. This is a man who really ... even though he was not in the (19)60s, is part of the (19)60s because of who he is, what he believes. Your thoughts on just the short term. And most of the times, when I interview people, I never get a chance to ask some of these questions here on the Presidents because I have sometimes only an hour, sometimes 30 minutes. So it is great. Just your thoughts so far on President Obama and what he really stands for. And to a lot of boomers, he stands for progress. RC (02:29:40): Well, I think that that is what a lot of conservatives are afraid of. They too think that Obama is much more left-wing than he ran as. And I think that there's a lot of evidence of that. And we will see. But of course, we elect Presidents. We do not elect kings. And that is relevant in two respects. Number one, no matter how liberal a president is, there are political constraints on what he can do. We have existing laws, we have courts, and we have Congress. Even though the Democrats do not control Congress, changing the laws, he has to go through Congress, and there are enough Republicans there to slow or even stop more radical kinds of change. On the other hand, when you elect a President, you elect not just the President, you elect a whole administration. I think on some issues, like civil rights, the President himself may have somewhat more conservative instincts than the people he is likely to appoint. But you are stuck with the political appointees, excepting the relatively rare instances where an issue gets [inaudible] away to the Presidents- SM (02:31:52): A lot of people believe that if Hillary had won and gotten in, there would be no difference. Just a different color. Because she is a liberal too. RC (02:32:00): Well, yeah. I think you have to ask, whatever they themselves think of these different views, they are going to be facing the same Congress, they are going to be facing the same constraints, and probably a lot of the people that they would have appointed would have been the same people. And so it is not a choice between King Barack and Queen Hillary. It is between an Obama administration and a Clinton administration. And there may not be a lot of difference between the two. SM (02:32:36): When the best history books are written, and they are normally written 50 years after an event ... a lot of the best World War II books are coming out now, and I wish my dad was alive to be able to read them, because he died seven years ago. But when the best history books are written about the boomer generation, maybe as boomers have passed beyond when they are alive, what do you think historians and sociologists will be saying about this generation? Because after all, the people that will be writing these books will not be boomers. They will be generation Xers who will be reaching old age, there will be millennials who will be in middle age, and there will be the following generation, generation Y or whatever it is called. What do you think they will be writing about this generation, and saying about it? RC (02:33:30): I do not think that they will be writing about it as a generation. Think about it. I think to some extent, this is a phenomenon of the fact that we are in it now, but 50 years from now, I think that most historians will write about individuals. Individual biographies and the individual issues and events and all that. And they may write about radicals in the 1960s, or conservatives in the 1960s, or civil rights leaders in the 1960s or something like that. But as we have discussed, I think that there is too much heterogeneity among boomers for it to be a useful analytical device for most history. And I think that it is rare to have history, I think, that focuses on generations. I think that most history looks at events and individuals and particular groups of individuals. Now, sometimes there are exceptions to that. And when we talked about the Civil War generation, that may be different. When you have a cataclysmic event like that, where literally a whole cohort of people are swept up and have to go off to war and a lot of them are killed, that may be different. And maybe even the greatest generation, with the twin events of World War II and the Depression, maybe you can treat that generation as... But still, when you think about it, when Brokaw wrote The Greatest Generation, this was something that was sort of new. People had not written about the (19)50s generation. Or I do not know what they would write about, but I think it is very novelty shows. This is not the way that history is normally written. And I think it will remain the exception, rather than the rule. SM (02:36:40): I cannot believe I did not ask you, just your quick thoughts on Martin Luther King Jr. He gave that great Vietnam speech, which set him apart from the other civil rights leaders, and he got criticized for it. But just your overall thoughts on him. You have already talked about Malcolm X. You have said some things about him. But Dr. King and his importance in this period? RC (02:36:59): Well, I think that King will be remembered. And the reason that we have a national holiday is because of his crusade for racial equality. And that was a literally heroic effort. I think the word heroism is overused these days, but in that time and place, he was putting his life on the line, and ultimately died because of the principle of racial equality. I think, unfortunately ... well, not unfortunately. In addition to believing in racial equality, he believed in economic redistribution and the anti-war movement and a lot of things like that, which are much more open to debate. But- SM (02:38:13): And he was a proponent that to get anything, you have got to agitate. You have got to continue to agitate. Now, he believed in the non-violent approach. He and Bayard Rustin were of the same realm, the non-violent approach. And that famous picture with Stokely Carmichael standing next to Dr. King. Dr. King had his arms like this, and obviously he was tense, because Stokely Carmichael was telling him, "Your time has passed." And he was telling him. And that is the same thing that Malcolm X did to Bayard Rustin in a debate they had at, I think, Columbia. "Your time has passed." Like James Farmer, Roy Wilkins, Whitney Young, Ralph Abernathy, Martin Luther King, Bayard Rustin, all that group. Jesse, even though he was younger. "Your time's passed. Black power now." So Dr. King had to put up with a lot. Some people said he had the heart of a 70-year-old when he died, because he was under medicine, blood pressure. Unbelievable stuff. RC (02:39:19): Yeah, yeah, sure. I am sure that is all true. SM (02:39:24): But I have asked you a lot. Is there a question I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask that you wanted to add? RC (02:39:30): No, I do not think so. I will think about it. If there is anything I want to add, I will send you an email or call you up. SM (02:39:38): I have a waiver here, which I am missing. If I can find it here ... oh, got it. I guess we have to make a copy of this. Would you be able to make a copy? RC (02:39:49): Sure. SM (02:39:50): And then you could sign it and you can read it and keep a copy to yourself. I wrote on this one. RC (02:39:53): Oh, okay. That is all right. SM (02:39:57): See, the first 50 people, I did not know I had to have a waiver. I was new to this. (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Roger Clegg Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Clegg, Roger ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Lawyers; Center for Equal Opportunity; Clegg, Roger--Interviews Description An account of the resource Roger Clegg is the President and General Counsel of the Center for Equal Opportunity. He was the Deputy Assistant Attorney General for both the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations. He specializes in legal issues arising from civil rights laws including immigration and bilingual education. Clegg received his Bachelor's degree from Rice University and is a graduate of Yale University Law School. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-12-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.38a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.38b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 160:15 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/32264e48644f38df8546aeb227dd4a2b.jpg 60e741077397563658a521e7bce10d76 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3db5a7c4f78e21dc590b59cf38d0fe35.mp3 7058cd8ccdc32bf52785b0090d256f28 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1997-07-16 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ronald D. Castille Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Ronald D. Castille served on the US Supreme Court in Pennsylvania from 1994 to 2014 and was promoted to the Chief Justice in 2008, staying until 2014. Castille retired from office at the age of 70. He received his Bachelor's degree in Economics from Auburn University. He joined the U.S Marine Corps and received several awards along his journey. Castille received his Juris Doctorate from the University of Virginia School of Law after his medical retirement from the Marine Corps.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:7043,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Ronald D. Castille served on the US Supreme Court in Pennsylvania from 1994 to 2014 and was promoted to the Chief Justice in 2008, staying until 2014. Castille retired from office at the age of 70. He received his Bachelor's degree in Economics from Auburn University. He joined the U.S Marine Corps and received several awards along his journey. Castille received his Juris Doctorate from the University of Virginia School of Law after his medical retirement from the Marine Corps.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Anti-war protest; Civil rights movement; William Buckley; Bill Buckley; Hippies; Sexual Revolution; Drugs; the Vietnam War; Counterculture; Activism; Equality; Jim Crow; Segregation; Black Panthers; Feminism; Gay Rights; Native American Movement; Baby boom generation.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13689059}}">Anti-war protest; Civil rights movement; William Buckley; Bill Buckley; Hippies; Sexual Revolution; Drugs; the Vietnam War; Counterculture; Activism; Equality; Jim Crow; Segregation; Black Panthers; Feminism; Gay Rights; Native American Movement; Baby boom generation</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 73:36 Subject LCSH Marines; Pennsylvania. Supreme Court; Judges; Castille, Ronald D.--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Ron Castille Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 16 July 1997 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:05): So, I am going to do that here today as well. Thanks again for taking time out of your busy schedule. First question I would like to ask deals with the issue of, how much time do we have today? We have about an hour? RC (00:00:19): Yeah. Because we have to take a break at about three o'clock real quick to go ahead and get free ice cream sundaes. SM (00:00:26): And then we can come back? RC (00:00:27): Yeah, they are bringing them to the floor. SM (00:00:28): Oh great. RC (00:00:29): I guess some kind of commercial deal by the [inaudible]. SM (00:00:34): I saw that in the hallway there, near the elevator. First question is today I have seen a lot of the media that commentators like George Will, I have even heard [inaudible] and several individuals, politicians from both the Democratic and Republican side who will look at the issues facing America today and the problems we have in America today and they will pinpoint them back to when the boomers were young basically blaming the problems on boomers for what is happening in America today. I would like your thoughts, just your personal thoughts from whether that is true historically, and from your own personal experience what your thoughts on the boomers’ impact and linkage with the problems of today in America. RC (00:01:19): I guess it did impact society in that just the opposite of what JFK said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." Well that era sort of got away from that what I can do for [inaudible]. They go their individual rights elevated above everything else. It became kind of selfish to some extent in that the focus was not on the greater good of society but was on whatever made them happy. Hence all that stuff about free love, and dodging the draft, and what is good for me is what is right. So the focus became inward rather than outward. And we're probably only just starting to come back around. SM (00:02:14): So, in a sense you are kind of in agreement with those social commentators that a lot of the things today in America, whether it be the breakup of the American family, which is of course the high divorce rate we see today, the drug culture amongst young people which is on the increase, some of the strife we have, the lack of respect oftentimes for authority figures. You see direct relation to the boomer. It is a bloomer quality. RC (00:02:38): Yeah, I see that. It is all to that time. I kind of grew up in the (19)50s. That was the country and the parents and the church, [inaudible] the institutions of government held in high esteem [inaudible] Vietnam [inaudible]. For me it is all [inaudible]. The nation where everybody thought, at one time they thought the marijuana was really bad [inaudible]. It might have been the drug of choices at the schools, at the law school in (19)69, (19)68, graduated in (19)71. Just one side were the juicers, which [inaudible] and the doper is the one that smoked marijuana. I have got people that were experimenting with drugs and [inaudible] it is I guess the taboo that drugs were that [inaudible]. SM (00:03:37): Check your [inaudible]. That will do fine. What do you feel is the overall impact of the boomer generation, if you look at the year 1997 as we are heading into 1998? This is kind of a two-part question. What has been the overall impact of boomers on America? Because boomers right now are reaching 50. Because boomers are categorized as people who were born between 1946 and 1964. And what would you say would be the positive qualities and the negative qualities of the boomer generation? RC (00:04:19): The negative, some of that I just spoke of. The elevation of individual rights over the collective common good. I guess the positive things, sure they make people a little more questioning rather than just going along with the institutions of society and questions about how they function, and some of the problems they have been ignored were brought to the forefront. So, there was more of a typical questioning of what was going around their society. The civil rights movements, the [inaudible], which was partly the boomer generation at the same time. And the [inaudible] all these different rights. Like the stop and search, and the suppression it was forward in the (19)60s. To some extent that is healthy questioning the society and what it is all about, what it does and how it handles some of the problems. But because we're better off today than we were back then, certain groups are always complaining about racism, if you could transport them from today back to the (19)60s you would find a totally different problem. I went to Auburn in Alabama, I graduated in (19)66, and I think in (19)65 was when they integrated [inaudible]. [inaudible] about diversity at Auburn. So, it was an all-white school [inaudible] civil rights because of that. So, I guess it was helping that they questioned society what was provided to people. So healthy skepticism and a willingness to make things better [inaudible]. SM (00:06:16): One of the things that I am trying to get at is, because I work in a college environment today, and boomers were young once. There is a lot of activism happening during that era, but the overall impact that boomers have had on their children. I bring this in because I feel that looking at a term that was often used in those times, the generation gap. That was the world war two generation, the boomers, the gap that happened there. And now if there is such a gap between boomers and their children, which is generation Xers. Could you comment on your thoughts of that time using your own metaphor of your life? Any experiences you may have had regarding that generation gap. And also comparing that to a generation gap of today. RC (00:07:00): I guess back in the (19)60s there was a real generation gap once people started wearing long hair and listening to rock and roll. So yeah, that really was not the change or the gap that they referred to was [inaudible] age and changing totally. That Glenn Miller era, Elvis Presley and The Beatles. I think they [inaudible] trending styles. [inaudible] with whatever they were told and what was handed out to them. [inaudible] the IRME sort of started going back to as far as I can tell is trying to get more altruistic and involved in society [inaudible], no protests [inaudible]. SM (00:07:53): Occasionally there will be protests, especially over issues like lack of representation on a student newspaper. African-American students might do that, and that is happened in the last couple of years at different universities. Lack of representation, but other than that no. I have not seen a whole lot. RC (00:08:10): That is what's changed. They are more willing to be, I would not say docile, but believe that the institution of society serves a function, and they have some good. [inaudible] just like, let us tear it down and start all over, [inaudible]. Then an organization like the SDS or weatherman frequency that we have. SM (00:08:36): No? RC (00:08:36): No that is the difference, I think [inaudible 00:08:38] were things that made this country strong over the years, morality. But unless you're just like us aides. I think they like to drink beer and stuff more, do not they? SM (00:08:48): It is a definite yes. RC (00:08:51): Well that is not a norm back in the (19)50s. SM (00:08:54): Party time was a very important term. This takes right into another aspect, activism. Activism was always an adjective to describe many of the boomers, but we know from studying sociology and so forth that only 15 percent of the 76 million boomers were really active. It could be liberals or conservatives, but it really got involved in some aspect of the issues of the time. And 85 percent really just went on with their daily lives, so to speak. Your thoughts on the concept of activism at that time? And whether that activism has transferred into boomers lives as they have approached 50. And whether they have been able to transfer that activism to their children. RC (00:09:37): I do not know about their children, [inaudible] children. Activism, the most active people of every-every color. [inaudible] and marching, and not willing to have a rational conversation, not willing to work [inaudible] active people of that time. I went to law school. I was I just at the battle in Vietnam. I spent 15 months in a hospital in Virginia. And at that time there was all those campus protests and all that stuff. It seemed that Virginia, [inaudible] got a small minority out there just yelling and waving the Viet Cong flag [inaudible]. Well, the institution was like college campus, functioning student newspaper, fraternities and things like that. So there probably was a small group of activists. I do not even think those people are activists anymore unless they are [inaudible] communities trying to make their [inaudible] traditional [inaudible] school and things like that [inaudible]. SM (00:10:41): [inaudible], yeah. RC (00:10:42): If they were to walk out today, and you say how many other people are there like this? [inaudible ]. My perspective, [inaudible] is tainted to some extent. There have always been elected officials where we could have bettered society. SM (00:10:59): Would not you say though that what you're doing with your life is carrying out some of that activism. Going on to become a lawyer, going on to become a judge. And then you ran for political office. One of the most admirable qualities- RC (00:11:10): I am a [inaudible], I am not an activist. I was always involved in things. I was in the student body in high school, I went to Air Corps Marines, and that drove me to [inaudible] always be the best. And [inaudible] in student counsel in college too. Senator [inaudible]. So, he started to do that, I was always active in that sense and in that sense without more [inaudible] the existing system. When I was in law school I was the Vice President of the law school, I was one of the editors of the-the law school students’ newspaper. I was doing that. And I was elected DA two times here in the Supreme Court. It is not activism, I think they look at activism as destructive kind of stuff. I am more of a dragging on of tradition. Some people would call me reactionary. SM (00:12:12): But I can give you a [inaudible] Harry told me about that if you're talking about your contribution to society being a judge and a lawyer, that you got involved with the Vietnam Memorial here in Philadelphia. And the contribution to society and showed activism there of seeing something that needed to be done and doing it. That was certainly activism at its finest. RC (00:12:33): Yeah, that was a healing sort of thing. Everybody does a preliminary when I was in law school. There was probably a bunch of guys in Vietnam [inaudible] was an assistant DA. There were guys that he knew and served [inaudible]. I brought people all over the city. We have talked about it, [inaudible] publicity that I have because of the [inaudible]. That was sort of a healing tone. It felt like [inaudible]. SM (00:13:01): [inaudible] year anniversary coming up. RC (00:13:02): Yeah [inaudible]. We did a good job on that one [inaudible] $2 million. I was actually and owner of the memorial at one time because [inaudible] gave us a property but on the condition that we turn it over to the Fairmount Park after we are through. But the Fairmount Park did not want it because I know [inaudible] raised X hundred thousands of dollars more from- SM (00:13:29): The ends of this issue a [inaudible]. RC (00:13:32): [inaudible] I am on the board of the boy scouts, I am the US Ward[inaudible] handicap people are [inaudible] some kid of activities that help. Then we have sports [inaudible] it was more of the traditional sense of prolong what I think are good things- SM (00:13:57): [inaudible] the two major issues of boomers was certainly the Vietnam War and the civil rights movement. And your point-blank thoughts on how important the boomers were in ending this war. Whether it is direct response to the students who were protesting on college campuses. Again, probably that 15 percent that were involved. How important were they in ending the war and what was the reason that the war ended? RC (00:14:22): They probably had some input in it. They actually got to see war a lot more than we did because of television. The Korea War, they did not have towers and TV and what brought things home pretty radically to the people. And then [inaudible] it was in your living room. So [inaudible] was [inaudible] a lot of the protest. None of them want to be there and get shot [inaudible] pressure. Probably rethink their positions. And then a lot of people came with us military guys that came back from Vietnam and started raising hell about it. [inaudible] what they did [inaudible] return their medals and speak out against the was saying [inaudible] the whole thing was misguided and screwed up. I think when those kinds of people started raising their voices too- SM (00:15:17): And their [inaudible] RC (00:15:17): Yeah. SM (00:15:17): [inaudible] RC (00:15:18): Yeah, they have [inaudible] saw them on TV [inaudible] educational channel. I think it is probably one of those [inaudible]. Yeah, when those people start speaking up [inaudible] students handled with care. We do not want people coming back and complaining about the screwed up [inaudible] lost. The thing was prolonged for years. They played a role [inaudible]. SM (00:15:44): Also so when Jack Smith said from ABC news, because I interviewed him last fall he point blank said that the main reason why this war ended was when the body bags started coming home and mothers and fathers and middle America saw it on television. Said there's no other reason why, that is the reason why. Do you agree with that? RC (00:16:04): I absolutely agree with that. The first one where you could get a 15 minutes of combat right at dinner. This was the-the first-time war was an actual war, the reality of it was brought home by the [inaudible]. We did not get to see the whole thing. That is probably the military's biggest mistake was letting the reporters out into the field to do whatever they wanted. SM (00:16:31): Had more controls on that during the Gulf war. Remember they had to stay back there and they did not allow them. RC (00:16:36): They had to stay in the rear with the gear and they give you a brief. SM (00:16:39): How important were the boomers in the civil rights movement? RC (00:16:43): They were important too. I think other than the blacks down in south, if nobody came down to help them it would probably have still been the same. And the college kids were spending their summers down there. [inaudible] that I was in the south at the time so I can put the [inaudible] tremendously. Contested the old John Crow laws. SM (00:17:04): Have you changed your opinions at all on the boomers for the last 25 years? Your thoughts when you were a college student at Auburn, and then when you were a young professional and coming back from the war. Then to go through rehab and then now as a judge. Do you look at things differently or are you pretty consistent in your thoughts? RC (00:17:22): I am probably pretty consistent in my thoughts. A bunch of them were jerks, a bunch of them were cowards, [inaudible]. Or cutting back on the use of drugs. Some guys that served in Vietnam were addicts and stuff like that. I respected those individuals. I actually respected the people that said [inaudible]. The others I [inaudible] wen to Sweden and Canada. I hope they never come back. [inaudible]. Those individuals that totally evaded all responsibility. SM (00:18:10): [inaudible] all the respect of, if you were to have a meeting with several of those individuals to sit down and have a civil dialogue, or you just would not even deal with them? RC (00:18:19): I have dealt with them. One guy was John [inaudible] who we dealt with. SM (00:18:23): That is right, the one that Howard stern destroyed. RC (00:18:30): He was really helpful to us in [inaudible]. But he never served in the military, he was a war protestor himself. But no, he did not go to Canada or wherever. He might have had a deferment and everything. But I guess those people were misguided to some extent in that they were protesting the war and did not even have content. They started seeing the light after [inaudible 00:18:57]. So I work with people like that. The ones I do not like nowadays are the ones who were in Vietnam when they were in the military when they [inaudible]. SM (00:19:12): Oh, I know that because I have been going down to them a lot the last couple of years to the ceremonies on Veterans Day and Memorial Day. And I will never forget that my conversation with Joe Galloway. I do not know if you know him? RC (00:19:24): [inaudible] yeah. SM (00:19:24): Yeah, he was US news [inaudible] and wrote report, he wrote When Were Young Once. That was an [inaudible]. I interviewed him and he said, that is the thing that upsets him the most. You cannot believe how many Vietnam imposters there are in there at the ceremonies. Yes, and they lie and they sit there and they actually have a medals on. There is no question that is the... We have got a target there because that is what Joe was talking about too. RC (00:19:50): [inaudible] he was the worst of them all. [inaudible]. It was a human example of stark cowardice [inaudible]. SM (00:20:02): Later in the interview we are going to go over some names here, but now that you have mentioned his name, your thoughts on that book in retrospect. Whether you bought the book or have you read the book, your thoughts about that, knowing about 1967, that he knew back then that the war was bad mistake. RC (00:20:20): He was a coward, he did not [inaudible]. He gave a speech to Valley Forge Military Academy, a graduating class. Mentioned him [inaudible] in the military [inaudible] say what you think is correct. And this otherwise, and not mention [inaudible] power he was when he came to his conclusion that the war was wrong in (19)67. That is something like seven to 10,000 dead. But he did not say one thing to Johnson. [inaudible] and just never said one thing about it until 20 years later. SM (00:20:54): And one of the characteristics that boomers used to say, we are the most unique generation in American history. We are different than any generation that proceeded us. And because of the times with the civil rights, protests against the Vietnam War, the women's movement, the Native American movement, there were a lot of movements at that time. There was somewhat of an arrogance and the cockiness that the boomers at that time felt they were the most unique generation. Some may still feel that. Your thoughts on that terminology that the boomer generation is the most unique generation in American history. RC (00:21:25): They were just a collection of assholes. Probably the most unique generation we have ever had is the people that moved out of the east coast of the United States. They were going into Kentucky and Tennessee. I always go to these state parks and I look at these things and say, man can you imagine somebody driving a wagon through this place. [inaudible] unbelievable hardship to settle in a country. So the people who moved out of the original colonies and moved across the nation to California who's encompassing more than one generation. But the boomer generation [inaudible] danger was you might get drafted and go to Vietnam. Most of the time you will not be near that much danger in Vietnam. SM (00:22:15): Of the 3 million that served in Vietnam, how many actually served on the front lines? RC (00:22:20): [inaudible] something about that where they said for every soldier [inaudible] had had nine people packing them up. SM (00:22:24): This feeling that many hand that we are going to change the world in a positive way, that was a mentality in 1968, in 1997. Have they? RC (00:22:38): The generation before them is the generation that changed the world, the world war two people when they came back. American was a different place pre-world war two and then after world war two, [inaudible] the country up until the Bush [inaudible 00:22:55] Strongly against communism, Vietnam being part of it. But they held on against communism, and when those individuals that came back [inaudible] I am serving four years in the war I was just strongly as a country man [inaudible]. SM (00:23:14): I referred earlier to the fact that sociologists and historians will say that 15 percent of the boomers, which is 76 million, really got involved with some sort of activism. And that could be liberals or conservatives. Whatever their stance was at that time on different issues. Some have said that that is a lessening of the impact of this generation has had, because they will say only 15 percent were really involved, 85 percent went on with their lives and did not really care about the issues. And thus, when you look at today and you see that their children do not vote and they do not vote that that 85 percent is having greater impact than the 15 percent as they have gotten older. Your thoughts on that and whether you feel that that kind of mentality is lessening the impact again on the boomers and their involvement in the issues of the time. Whether it be against racism, sexism, some of the issues linked to the movements. RC (00:24:04): I do not really know. Are you saying that they had no impact at 15 percent? SM (00:24:12): No, they had impact, but by saying that they had only 15 percent of them were involved was really 85 percent were not involved. RC (00:24:21): And they were involved in it at some extent in that they were carrying on the tradition of our society, the institutions, home, family, jobs. SM (00:24:32): They were involved. RC (00:24:32): To that extent though they have been part of what America is all about. [inaudible] by the activists. People talking about the way that you should be. Why should we take everything verbatim or per se or [inaudible] follow along, let us have some questions. Which I think I think that generation did that asking questions. And it did help change the [inaudible] problems of society. In the (19)60s with the civil rights movement, all this questioning of the status quo that everybody could be talking about it and [inaudible] who has to decide [inaudible] the debates started back in [inaudible] there was no debate in the (19)50s [inaudible]. SM (00:25:25): I have been to the Vietnam Memorial, we got four more minutes on this side of the tape, I have been to the Vietnam Memorial many times. I am sure you have in Washington. Obviously when that wall was built, it was meant to be a nonpolitical statement. It was to pay on honor tribute to those who served. Knowing that in this nation the Vietnam veterans were not treated properly when they returned. And it was in a Jan Scrubs and the people involved in that, they did a tremendous job. And they certainly have encouraged many morals around the country like you that were involved in here as a nonpolitical entity. So, we were getting into the aspect of one of the goals of that wall, which was the healing. The healing of not only the Vietnam veterans and their families and loved ones. But just basically the divisions that took place in America at that time, even by those who were for and against the war. Those who served those who did not serve. Your thoughts on the healing process in America as 1997 with respect to, has the nation healed from this war? Which was one of the goals of the wall. And has it healed up certain groups more than others? And in what areas do we still have a long way to go with respect to healing and bringing our nation together because there were so many divisions at that time? RC (00:26:46): Well actually the first thing that brought the healing was when they had the unknown soldier from Vietnam [inaudible] at Washington. People filed by that by the millions I guess. [inaudible] realize, yes Anne. Anne (00:27:06): Pardon me, I just want to let you know that it is ice cream. RC (00:27:08): Okay. SM (00:27:12): People started filing by that. RC (00:27:15): [inaudible] then realizing that this guy gave up his life for his [inaudible] in Vietnam, it is still a dead American [inaudible]. That was really the first step, that soldier. And then the second one was the wall. When they built that that caused some problems too because to look at a black gash in another [inaudible]. It was pretty impressive to see [inaudible] two of those were really the beginning to getting over the Vietnam war. [inaudible] when it was the Gulf war [inaudible] when I served in [inaudible] to Washington [inaudible] started painting. There is still parts of society that think there is no healing. The blacks are real with the world. I think most of the problems commonly caused by Vietnam are probably behind us. SM (00:28:17): [inaudible]. Again, and we will go to the ice cream. The issue of the divisions. I have been to the wall and had a chance to try to get an ambiance or feel. I feel I must be there to get a feel amongst the veterans as I talked to them. I Got to know Jan and Joe Galloway and some of the people down there. I have brought students to the wall. I do hear things like we can never forgive Bill Clinton, he was the typical draft dodger. We will never forgive Jane Fonda. And obviously she's a lightning rod. But the question is, is this an issue in the lives of Vietnam veterans or is it an issue in your life that, I have moved on with my life time heals everything, the wall was doing a great job, but the divisions of that time, tremendous divisiveness, the lax, the shouting, the disrespect, all these qualities that some people may say have been transferred today into our everyday dialogue. Is it a direct result of that time? And where is the healing over some of these things? RC (00:29:25): I guess we are pretty [inaudible]. I do not think people like Clinton would go to clearly manipulate the system. To an extent they did not like [inaudible] because he had [inaudible]. One-time government had [inaudible] of the guy [inaudible]. The cherry-picked people on the [inaudible]. People like [inaudible] Clinton did it [inaudible] then he bailed out and went to Canada. SM (00:29:53): Fulbright helped him, Senator Fulbright was one of the biggest advocates against the war eventually. RC (00:30:00): I will not say too much, [inaudible] politicians can be. SM (00:30:02): Do you want to get that ice cream now, and [inaudible]. What are your thoughts on people like David Horowitz, or anybody from the left at that era who have become conservatives to the extreme right. Which David Horowitz has become. And of course, he was the editor at Ramparts magazine, now he is one of the leading conservatives going around the country bashing the boomers who were protesting the war and issues of civil rights. Your thoughts on those people who were on the left, who have just totally did an about face and that are condemning those who did not. RC (00:30:45): Maybe they saw the light. Maybe they saw that they were wrong. You cannot condemn a person. You can point it out that he was wrong, and then try to make amends for it. That just sounds like what the guy is trying to do. Could have made a moon [inaudible]. SM (00:31:02): He is one of the biggest names out there now, of people on the college campus, speaking to a lot of different issues like that. RC (00:31:09): People actually come here? SM (00:31:10): Yes, he is drawing good numbers. RC (00:31:13): I was always amazed too [inaudible] I was running for DA or something. They said come [inaudible] be like two people, three people. SM (00:31:29): So [inaudible]. RC (00:31:33): So, I guess the liberal [inaudible] sort of party in the background. Have you ever studied [inaudible] to some extent he was. SM (00:31:43): Just check this man. What do you feel your impact has been on society as a boomer? A person who now is in a very prestigious position. But if you were to look at your, as boomers felt they were going to be change agents for the betterment of the world, do you feel as a boomer or a little bit older than a boomer that you fall in that category? RC (00:32:10): [inaudible] I was born in (19)44. SM (00:32:13): You are in that area because a lot of people [inaudible] feel they are boomers right up to 55 and 56, even though they do not fall into the category. RC (00:32:23): [inaudible] maybe I have had some impact on society. Being an assistant DA, clearing the streets of criminals has some impact. [inaudible] being the DA of the city. Just fix it. It has had some impact on society. And with all the people on death row, it does not matter who [inaudible]. And then this job I am in now is in Speak with Justice, we have an impact on the law an- the structure of [inaudible]. I am trying to bring our hardcore [inaudible] towards the leftist positions [inaudible] personal rights [inaudible] everything else. SM (00:33:12): Do you see yourself running for political office again down the road? RC (00:33:18): Well I do not know, I could probably be in this job for 20 years [inaudible]. But what I am doing in this job is high level work. [inaudible] respect most of us. Mostly the lawyers. A larger section of society, never can say never. That is what my buddy Bob Dole is going to be president. I might have a shot at the US Supreme Court. What does a [inaudible] war veteran [inaudible]. I might someday [inaudible]. The way politics are now it is a whole different subject. Airing it all on TV and all negative with your opponents. SM (00:34:04): What is the lasting legacy of the boomer generation? RC (00:34:09): It would probably be much [inaudible] anything specific. [inaudible] that make people a little more skeptical and questioning about what goes on in society. [inaudible] anybody suggest anything. SM (00:34:26): [inaudible] would say women have gotten better equality over time because of the movement. RC (00:34:34): I guess I could [inaudible] civil rights. SM (00:34:37): Straight into the [inaudible] lasting legacy, but historians always have this mentality. Well the best history books are yet to be written. And or the best history books will be written in 50 years or 25 years. I am trying to look down the road 25 to 50 years when supposedly the best books are going to be written. Well, how do you think historians are going to treat that period from the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, during those times. The impact on America is changing [inaudible]. RC (00:35:07): I think they are going to probably see the impact on the world, what we did to the world specifically [inaudible] and some of its allies’ cause [inaudible] that is 11 a year [inaudible] to some extent totalitarian. But one thing is our system of government and our economics system and the freedoms that are [inaudible]. Someone is going to [inaudible] that would be known as tox Americana. Just remind [inaudible] you got to go back to the early (19)60s or (19)70s. That is when there was to some extent [inaudible]. You can always go back to world war two, and then America stepping into Korea. [inaudible] a stronger face against communism. [inaudible] Russia is a [inaudible] country now. I guess the Russians must be [inaudible] to [inaudible] stay strong. And then we go in there and [inaudible] collapse. Nothing [inaudible]. To an extent all the generations had their war too. SM (00:36:24): Back to a question we talked about earlier about the healing process within the generation. Do you think it's possible to heal within a generation if the differences in opinions were so extreme? If so, is it important to try to assist in this healing process? Some of this book, project dealing with metaphors people's lives and their opinions historically and personally, is to say that there is no really clear-cut answers. There just needs to be better understanding how people felt. So that this mentality of saying that my opinion's better than someone else's or the pointing of fingers. We need to just really sit down and try to understand people better. How do you feel again about this healing? The effort to heal, Especially from the divisions of the war. RC (00:37:12): [inaudible] I guess all you really need to do is talk to a person. [inaudible]. I will never forgive the people [inaudible] Canada. [inaudible] Clinton [inaudible] Jane Fonda always preaching about the war itself [inaudible]. And then there is [inaudible] Americans [inaudible] let us lose the women thing or just being [inaudible]. SM (00:37:48): How would you compare people who say that the Vietnam War, it may not have been the civil war in America of the 1860s, but it still was a civil war and it was a coming civil war. We were pretty close to a civil war. And your thoughts on people who thought that the many people went to their graves after the civil war without healing toward the other side or forgiving the other side. And that this generation of boomers are going to be going to their graves with still the bitterness in their heart. Thoughts on that kind of thought. RC (00:38:24): Well I do not really know if anybody is bitter anymore. I lost a leg in Vietnam and I am not bitter about having [inaudible]. I do not think there is a lot of people that to me seem to give much thought about it anymore. [inaudible] every waking moment or dwelling moment. [inaudible] is 25 years old and whether it is [inaudible]. SM (00:38:58): How about this issue with trust? People will say, and again, I am using terminology, but we sense that there is a lack of trust in America today toward elected officials, people in positions of power and responsibility, whether they be Governors, Congressmen, Senators, principles of high schools. RC (00:39:17): Supreme Court Justices. SM (00:39:18): Right, Supreme Court Justices, Ministers, CEO, heads of corporations. Because the establishment, there was an attack against the establishment at that time. And that some of the mentality is never trusted people in positions of power and responsibility. And somehow that carried on to the children of today the Xers. Your thoughts on that and where we are in America with respect to trust and how serious that is in American thing. RC (00:39:43): I think I mentioned earlier we had a sense of skepticism in the institutions of [inaudible]. Skepticism is still there. Yeah, maybe it is good [inaudible] you cannot just go [inaudible], I think that is just skepticism which [inaudible]. SM (00:40:12): The lack of trust all the young people have [inaudible] many boomers who are now over 50. RC (00:40:16): I do not know if it is a lack of trust or if it is skepticism. SM (00:40:17): Okay. RC (00:40:18): We accept it we just do not [inaudible] newspapers so they would do something [inaudible]. Not some big investigation. [inaudible] as they are. [inaudible] say what is this really about, was it a political move, was it this and that. So since [inaudible] question by the press, it is the next step that may be more cynical that everybody else. SM (00:40:52): As person who served and went to war, lost a leg, but really went when your nation called, do you feel strongly toward those who did the same? And I will come back, what are your thoughts as a person cared about America and then saw elected officials lie to America, Lyndon Johnson and some people say the Gulf and [inaudible] revolution was made up. We never really should have gone to war. So how Johnson treated the war, obviously you have already made commentary on McNamara, who ran the war. Or did not [inaudible]. And then what you saw with Nixon and Watergate. And then just a lack of trust in public officials because they lied to the Americans. And yet you went to Vietnam, served your country. And then you see the politicians back home lying. Just your thoughts. It does not have to do with you being a Republican or Democrat, just being human. Just your thoughts on those leaders of those times. RC (00:41:49): Yeah, there's a lot of veterans [inaudible]. I remember I had taken [inaudible 00:41:59]. I think we were sitting [inaudible] book and donate it to some veteran’s hospital or something [inaudible]. What was the question [inaudible]? SM (00:42:16): Just your thoughts on the impact it had on you after you served, came back and then saw all this and witnessed all this. What you are feeling as a young man. And then but you still went on and served your country and you are going [inaudible] office. And you have done a lot of good things, but still it had to have an impact on you in some way. RC (00:42:34): [inaudible] impact on me was [inaudible] when I was in Vietnam. It only took me about two weeks to figure out [inaudible] screwed up. And then that is the first thing you did when you got there they sat us [inaudible] rules of engagement. Do not fire at them unless you are [inaudible] casually. Then they would send you out on some stupid patrol when you come back, they'd send you out again on another stupid patrol. [inaudible] that is what we did, that is how it was doomed to fail. [inaudible]. SM (00:43:17): Did you feel when you were going to go to political office, I am never going to be in like Richard Nixon, Lyndon Johnson or Robert McNamara? [inaudible 00:43:2] that was an inspiration to be better than them? RC (00:43:27): I guess I did go over to [inaudible] teach you a system to use [inaudible] trial advocacy and structure of the DA's office. Got these new DA's in [inaudible] your word is your bond [inaudible] people trust you [inaudible]. [inaudible] that is what people would trust [inaudible]. There is always going to be a first for people [inaudible]. So maybe let us say all these guys filled in like they did with Johnson [inaudible] suckered into a war that we could have won but did not win. SM (00:44:17): All the events when you read on from that period, from high school, college years and the years that you served, one event in America, one event that stands out of all others that had the greatest impact on you, what was that event? RC (00:44:31): Event in America? SM (00:44:34): Yeah, at that time it could be in Vietnam or there was one specific instance. People say the assassination of John Kennedy. Everything is different, everybody said a different [inaudible]. RC (00:44:49): [inaudible]. SM (00:44:54): Kennedy was that experience of his dad telling him that. RC (00:44:56): [inaudible]. SM (00:45:04): Experience informed who you are, that you were injured? RC (00:45:15): [inaudible] a different person, that is for sure. I will not stay in the [inaudible]. SM (00:45:16): One of the terms that always comes out of the youth of the (19)60s is the concept of empowerment, feeling that my voice counts, that people are listening to me. And so students on college campuses, even though they may have been radical and doing a lot of these things, there was a sense of maybe some might say euphoria, but there was a sense of empowerment that I can be a change agent. I am going to help end this war. I am going to help have civil rights and equality for a lot of different people in America. Do you feel this empowerment has continued amongst the 70 something million boomers as they have gone into adult life. And do you feel they have transferred this to their children, this sense of empowerment, which is basically self-esteem? RC (00:45:56): I guess that is one of the changes that happened in the (19)60s from the (19)50s. It seemed like in the (19)50s and early (19)60s the older you were the more you were respected and listened to. If you were young you were just the opposite, you were not listened to. So [inaudible] the younger folks with the experience of [inaudible] free speech [inaudible] school [inaudible] wrote an editorial about that. [inaudible] are you saying what a good thing it was [inaudible] the university [inaudible] your kids. SM (00:46:38): [inaudible]. RC (00:46:39): That is changed entirely. I guess Kennedy [inaudible] that when this started [inaudible]. And so, the-the thinking is I got him, a college kid, [inaudible] somebody ought to listen to him. But I think that still carries on, we still have young people today, we dismiss them just because they're young. Kids can have good ideas and kids can participate [inaudible 00:47:09]. That was probably one of the main [inaudible] in our society [inaudible]. SM (00:47:18): What event do you think defines the boomers then? And not your personal experience, but if there was one event in that timeframe [inaudible] that really defines the boomers. RC (00:47:28): Obviously, I could not ignore the [inaudible] it was just what was happening. Civil rights and women's rights [inaudible]. SM (00:47:37): Coalition of many things? RC (00:47:38): Yeah, [inaudible]. SM (00:47:44): I am going to just list a lot of names here. Just your overall, maybe a couple of sentences, thoughts on each of them. Positive or negative, your thoughts on them and maybe the thoughts that boomers may have had for these people. The first two are Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden. RC (00:48:00): She was a traitor, she should still get prosecuted. I know she tried to apologize a couple of years ago [inaudible]. She has never be forgiven [inaudible]. I think somebody [inaudible] of her sitting in that anti-aircraft gun, [inaudible] Jane the star. And [inaudible] Vietnam [inaudible]. SM (00:48:18): Tom Hayden. RC (00:48:18): I do not know if [inaudible] protester or hell raiser, [inaudible] in California [inaudible]. I saw that [inaudible]. SM (00:48:43): I saw them at Kent State. I saw them at the fourth anniversary of the killings at Kent State, and they were not speaking, they came together. And I will never forget being in that room with them, talking about what happened at Kent State, it was amazing. But she was certainly different. How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin the-the Yippies. RC (00:49:05): They were just a bunch of nutty guys that is all. If today you saw them you would say, man what are these guys? It's like some kind of throwbacks or some kind of hippies. SM (00:49:17): You remember when Abbie Hoffman died, it was in the news. He died over in Bucks County, he had $2,500 in the bank and he had given all of the money away to help people. And he left a note, and the note said that he killed himself. He was an impressive man. But no one was ever listening to me so he just did not want to go on with his life because one was listening anymore. And I said, well maybe the eccentricity is on this man, but are many boomers feeling the same way who cared about the issues of that time? And maybe society is not treating those issues the same way as they did then. Like young people are not listening as much to those issues. And that is why it kind of affects more boomers than just an Abbie Hoffman. Are people listening anymore to some of those issues? RC (00:50:05): [inaudible] I did not forget what Abbie Hoffman [inaudible]. SM (00:50:16): How about Dr. Benjamin Spock. RC (00:50:19): He probably always [inaudible]. I guess his philosophy was let your kids do [inaudible]. A lot of [inaudible]. SM (00:50:30): Timothy Leary. RC (00:50:33): He is another crack pot. Oh, he was probably far more dangerous in that era. He would have [inaudible] I guess all types not just LSD, I think he was everything. [inaudible 00:50:47] take another drug [inaudible]. Some people would have followed that. Not specifically because he said it, but because there was this feeling of they were like yeah, it was not such a bad thing. [inaudible] not have the potential to really [inaudible] our society. SM (00:51:05): What about the black power advocates, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver that whole group, the black power movement and their impact on America? And your thoughts on it. RC (00:51:15): They had some legitimate gripes, there is no doubt about that. The blacks were oppressed to some extent by systems of government and the institution of government, the police and all that stuff. They still are [inaudible] Martin Luther King. But he changed the system, non-violent, said violence was not a very good thing. SM (00:51:41): That leads me right into Dr. King, your thoughts on Dr. King and Malcolm X. RC (00:51:48): [inaudible] I was there when [inaudible]. Everybody in the south canceled their subscriptions to Time when they [inaudible] I think his impact is going to be greater [inaudible] radical change in the south. And he did not even know it too and he did it within the system, he used civil protest. SM (00:52:19): Thoughts on Malcolm X. RC (00:52:22): I guess Malcolm was [inaudible] he got other people to be in tune [inaudible] he would be secretly [inaudible] and all that stuff [inaudible]. He was a really good leader, he was [inaudible]. He was even more strict than Baptist rules and Catholic rules. SM (00:52:47): Some of the political leaders of that time and we're going to go into the presidents here. Just a few comments on Lyndon Johnson. RC (00:52:54): He was actually the most impacted society [inaudible] president. [inaudible] was passed under him. All the civil rights laws were passed under him. Medicare and Medicaid, he created that. That is [inaudible]. The housing act, I think he did that. I think he passed six or seven major legislation. Impact on us is [inaudible]. SM (00:53:30): Then John Kennedy. RC (00:53:33): He did not do that much did he. There is a lot of myth about it was Lyndon Johnson that did the stuff. [inaudible]. So, the most of the things they say about him are not even his work. [inaudible]. SM (00:53:51): Richard Nixon. RC (00:53:53): He would [inaudible]. He was part of I guess the old two government [inaudible]. That government was the be all and the end all [inaudible]. But he did open [inaudible]. Any thoughts, I guess he helped to end the Vietnam war. It has always been a weird [inaudible]. SM (00:54:19): Your thoughts on that combination of Nixon and Kissinger because the fact that in 1968 when he came in and promised Vietnamization, that he was going to end the war but he would not say how he was going to end the war. We just went over the 30,000 point of deaths in Vietnam, which means when he became president over 28,000 more Americans died in Vietnam. It took him four to five years to pull out and your thoughts on, we know how many Vietnam veterans feel about McNamara, but how do you feel about Kissinger who succeeded him in the Nixon administration, and Nixon and how long it took them to get out. RC (00:55:04): I guess they were always of the mind to get out, but they wanted to get out with some kind of [inaudible]. Did not want to just pack up and pull out. There was nothing wrong with it, once you made a commitment you have allies working with you and there was a lot of people in Vietnam who work with us and if we just packed up and left they would be dead meat [inaudible]. But they stalled on that one too long. At least [inaudible] put Jim on the trail to [inaudible]. SM (00:55:44): Is there a bitterness toward Kissinger like there is towards, not in... Is there some bitterness toward Kissinger though? RC (00:56:00): [inaudible 00:55:53]. Yes Anne? Anne (00:56:00): [inaudible]. RC (00:56:03): Okay. [inaudible] that is too slow and knew what they were doing. [inaudible]. SM (00:56:04): How about Gerry Ford? RC (00:56:10): Gerry, [inaudible] Gerry. I know Gerry Ford. He was actually a good president. He surrounded himself with smart people. And I guess that idiot McNamara was [inaudible] SM (00:56:27): I do not think so. RC (00:56:27): [inaudible] SM (00:56:38): A couple more names and we will be done. Can you [inaudible] on this [inaudible]. Some of the other names, George Wallace. RC (00:56:46): George, I knew George personally. He sign my diploma from Auburn, I have spoken to him several times. He was Governor[inaudible]. I knew him personally [inaudible] segregationist. Going back to the south of the (19)30s and the (19)20s, deeper Alabama [inaudible]. SM (00:57:11): How about Hubert Humphrey? RC (00:57:18): [inaudible] I do not think he did much as far as I can tell. SM (00:57:18): Do you think we would have been out of the war sooner if he became present? RC (00:57:26): Maybe, but I do not think anybody who got in could get out that easily or quickly [inaudible] because there is some major problems in and of itself. [inaudible] give you the war [inaudible]. SM (00:57:41): How about Bobby Kennedy? RC (00:57:42): That idiot got us into it in the first place, [inaudible] over to Vietnam. They're just sending the [inaudible] advisors [inaudible]. SM (00:58:01): How about Eugene McCarthy? RC (00:58:03): Eugene was all right. I guess [inaudible]. Some of the things he says were true about Vietnam [inaudible]. Was it really worth the life of one American? The Vietnamese did not care. Most of the Vietnamese were locked in a time warp, they lived in the 16th century. They might have had a radio in the village hall. They were just agricultural people growing rice and selling it and carrying on the-the generation. And not much had changed since [inaudible] 1500s. You have electricity in most of the places [inaudible]. They're houses did not have floors, they were dirt floors [inaudible]. SM (00:58:47): George McGovern. RC (00:58:47): [inaudible] I guess he spoke out the most on [inaudible]. He was shown to be correct in some of the things he said. I remember Eugene McCarthy [inaudible]. SM (00:59:13): Yes. Governor in (19)72, the democratic nominee. RC (00:59:19): [inaudible]. Was McCarthy a third party? SM (00:59:21): No, he was a Democrat and [inaudible] Bobby, there is a bitterness between the two of them, because Bobby said he went [inaudible]. RC (00:59:30): Interesting. SM (00:59:33): (19)68 was quite a year. RC (00:59:38): [inaudible] was Humphrey [inaudible]. SM (00:59:38): Humphrey Muskie. RC (00:59:43): Is Muskie still alive? SM (00:59:43): He died. RC (00:59:43): Really? SM (00:59:45): Died a year ago. He had severe Parkinson's disease and he had a bad heart. RC (00:59:55): Now he was old enough to be in history books, during the (19)60s. SM (00:59:56): I will recommend a book for you to read, it just came out by Joles Woodcover, he is from the Baltimore sun. It is a call 1968 a year in memory. I am just finishing, it is 500 pages, you will not be able to put it down. It basically goes over that entire year. So, as you are reading it you reflect about where you were in (19)68. Spiro Agnew. RC (01:00:32): I guess he was kind of a nice family guy, a young local celeb [inaudible] have much impact on. SM (01:00:32): But he created a lot of the lack of civility and dialogue with his assignment to go out on college campuses and really blast people. If you read (19)68 the book by [inaudible] even Richard Nixon was a little concerned about how far to the extreme he went sometimes. And he did not put a lid on it, but he embarrassed the president many times. RC (01:00:55): I guess [inaudible] civil dialogue and name calling. Because that was his specialty was to look up in the dictionary [inaudible]. But that was one of his [inaudible]. SM (01:01:06): Neil [inaudible] wrote a speech for him. RC (01:01:13): That is another nut. SM (01:01:16): Phil [inaudible]. RC (01:01:16): Phil [inaudible] somethings of some [inaudible] except when he called somebody one time. SM (01:01:24): Barry Goldwater. RC (01:01:27): I always liked Barry Goldwater, he was [inaudible]. I think he introduced me [inaudible] to the extent that world war two [inaudible] combat [inaudible] until he defends civil liberty [inaudible]. That man was something else. He had good ideas. And he was sort of carrying on the old style [inaudible]. SM (01:01:55): There has been several books written on him in the last couple of years. They were waiting for his book. Everybody else was writing about him but when is his book coming out. Muhammad Ali. RC (01:02:09): He was another draft dodger. I remember him saying he is not going, I think his [inaudible] suspended him. SM (01:02:18): Yeah, four years at least. RC (01:02:18): [inaudible]. SM (01:02:18): I read his book and he was a [inaudible] objector and he was based on his faith. RC (01:02:23): [inaudible] Muslims to me [inaudible] peaceful. SM (01:02:28): I saw him speak at the Ohio theater after I got out of grad school, when he was suspended. And he took the $3,500 in cash that was given to them and he handed it back and said, use it for a children's center. He did not take any money. He did not need it. So, it was amazing when I saw that. RC (01:02:49): Historically speaking that religion was a pretty [inaudible] religion. SM (01:02:56): Thoughts on the women leaders of that time, Gloria Steinem Betty Friedan, Abella [inaudible] the first Congresswoman [inaudible 01:03:05] power. And then Shirley Chisholm came in that. some of the women political leaders who turned things around for the women's movement. RC (01:03:12): I thought they were all generally great. A lot of the things they did, 40 percent [inaudible 01:03:19] somewhere along the line it would have been 2 percent. [inaudible] a lot of legitimate things to say [inaudible]. SM (01:03:30): Some of the people from Watergate are John Dean and John Mitchell. Some of the people that were the operatives in the White House during that time, who were the staff of Richard Nixon, those people. RC (01:03:43): I guess John Mitchell was the old style, the president was always right [inaudible] whatever we do. John Dean was sort of like I guess he was [inaudible]. How old was he when he ratted out the president? SM (01:04:00): 33 I believe. That is very young. RC (01:04:01): [inaudible] SM (01:04:05): And I guess he [inaudible]. RC (01:04:08): At least [inaudible] Mr. President [inaudible]. SM (01:04:11): How about Daniel Ellsberg? RC (01:04:19): I never was quite sure what is that thing was all about. I know he had some papers [inaudible] showed that Vietnam was one of those [inaudible]. SM (01:04:26): [inaudible]. RC (01:04:30): Yeah, hopefully [inaudible]. SM (01:04:33): What about Ralph Nader who is still living with the activism of today in a different area. RC (01:04:39): He is okay. He is sometimes pushing the envelope. So, for somebody sticking up small causes, causes that that nobody else is sticking up for. SM (01:04:51): I want to say this, someone on authority told me this, that you cannot find anything negative against the guy because he lives in a small apartment in Washington. He washes his own clothes. Never got married. I do not think he even owns a car. It is amazing that you cannot get anything in the guy because I think several political leaders try to, including Richard Nixon. They could not find anything. There was nothing negative. He practiced what he preached. He makes good money, but he just lives a very simple life. His causes are his life. RC (01:05:21): Ever heard about [inaudible] he would not be as vehement if he worked in [inaudible]. SM (01:05:29): Oh no, common cause was John Gardner. He started that, [inaudible] out of state. I am pretty sure.... Dwight Eisenhower. RC (01:05:40): He was a good man. He was a war hero [inaudible] but I guess to some extent it is true. SM (01:05:48): And the music of the year, the music that symbolize the (19)60s, when you had Janice Chaplain, Jimmy Hendrix, The Doors, The Beatles, all that music. Because that played a very important part in the war protest. Just that whole era of the music of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, which are really [inaudible]. RC (01:06:08): I like the music of the (19)60s [inaudible]. SM (01:06:11): [inaudible] Jim Morrison. RC (01:06:14): That there was excess of those people. And they were part of it, pushing [inaudible] electronic. SM (01:06:36): Mayor Daley from Chicago. RC (01:06:39): He made that city work. He was the old guard [inaudible] Nixon. [inaudible] like his father. SM (01:06:59): And once now in the Clinton administration too. That ends the basic questions. My final question is, are there any thoughts that, passing words of wisdom you might say with respect to this business about the healing again? Because again, this project is geared toward each individual's own historical perspective and also the metaphor part of their life. If you were to put in a capsule what that era has meant to you, just your own personal feelings of your young years. What it was like to be a teenager in the (19)60s, to grow up in the (19)50s, in the (19)60s and then the (19)70s to serve your country and come back. If you were share some final thoughts on your growing up years. RC (01:07:47): I do not know, I guess I started off in the (19)50s when it was more laid back. In school it was high school. I was on the team. I was captain of the basketball team. [inaudible] cheerleader and all that stuff [inaudible] it is going to make me step up to the plate. And things never changed, [inaudible] a career, whatever. What made me kind of step up to the plate [inaudible] things were changing. I was probably a little radicalized [inaudible] in the (19)60s. [inaudible] free speech. The importance of having students on the prestige of the university. [inaudible] I was considered a radical. SM (01:08:42): Were you a Democrat then? RC (01:08:44): Probably republican at that time. Being with the military, I can tell you when I was in college I was supporting Johnson, [inaudible] Johnson. At that time [inaudible] If you were working for [inaudible] because with Johnson [inaudible]. SM (01:09:02): Think a lot of Vietnam veterans, because of that experience became Republicans as opposed to Democrats, because they looked at McNamara and Johnson. And of course, history will show Kennedy, you got to see him and realize he may have gotten this out but do you think a lot of veterans, did you experienced a lot of people that changed? RC (01:09:20): And they made them republicans and we did not call them that in the military service. [inaudible] from us all the military. SM (01:09:31): Final question is getting back to the wall in Washington. And then 1992, this is the 15th anniversary coming up. We are expecting a big turnout in Washington. It is amazing a time place. But again, your thoughts on the impact that the wall has had on America. RC (01:09:51): I think it is important [inaudible] see the names on it. It feels like having that statute they put up to [inaudible]. SM (01:09:59): [inaudible] RC (01:09:59): [inaudible] SM (01:10:02): Over there. RC (01:10:06): Yeah, they [inaudible]. I think it is like they were in combat and they came in on the last patrol and they had 58,000 [inaudible]. Yeah, I think the wall is a [inaudible] of America. However, there was never a film of the war, you never see it. [inaudible]. I think it has made people appreciate the service individual. They [inaudible] anything else to do. But at least they see that those individuals are not [inaudible]. SM (01:10:46): Do you think that, follow up for that, this last question [inaudible] coming from me, that the greatest amount of healing from the Vietnam veteran, and because now we see the first ambassador back in Vietnam who was a former POW Mr. Peterson. And there seems to be a lot of forgiving between the people who fought the war. Almost a kind of respect because of a warrior, you had your duty and we had our duty. So, there is more healing between Vietnam veterans and Vietnam and America than there is between Vietnam veterans and those who protested against the war, some divisions here. Do you think that is a good analogy and can we ever, as Jan has been trying to do with the wall, bring people together to have the ultimate healing, which is finally saying, I am sorry, I was young then, I want to be able to be a friend of a Vietnam veteran. I want you to understand where I was coming from, because I think there is a lot of guilt amongst many people when they go to that wall, where boomers who take their kids, and I did not serve. That even though they may not have tried to get out of the war, there is got to be... Everybody that I have ever talked to that goes to the wall, whether they served or did not serve, has this feeling. There's feelings, it touches people. It brings back the memories. I am just trying to find out about your thoughts on the final healing process. RC (01:12:06): Yeah, it is [inaudible] significantly. It was one of the major events that began the healing process. With other towns like us, we did five years after, we built our memorial, sort of right down to a local level. It was all started by that one unknown soldier leaving Vietnam and it sort of spread out [inaudible]. You see Vietnam mentioned all over the world. SM (01:12:34): Is Clinton's visit to the wall important for the healing? RC (01:12:36): [inaudible]. SM (01:12:40): Because President Bush did not even go to the wall, but at least Bill Clinton did. I do not think Ronald- RC (01:12:44): [inaudible] Bush [inaudible]. SM (01:12:45): He was asked, he just did not want to go. And I know that for a fact. He was asked, and he said no. RC (01:12:51): Similar to the [inaudible] too much. SM (01:12:52): Bill Clinton was asked and he was going to refuse but still went. So, I do not know if that was like the second visit to the wall, how important that was toward the healing and then the generation. RC (01:13:09): [inaudible] sort of hide what they did. Not hide it but [inaudible]. SM (01:13:14): Any final thoughts? RC (01:13:15): You have to live with your past [inaudible]. SM (01:13:18): Any final thoughts at all, anything you want to add? RC (01:13:21): No. I guess [inaudible]. SM (01:13:29): I hope that is not the case. Thank you very much. (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ron Castille Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Castille, Ronald D. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Marines; Pennsylvania. Supreme Court; Judges; Castille, Ronald D.--Interviews Description An account of the resource Ronald D. Castille served on the US Supreme Court in Pennsylvania from 1994 to 2014 and was promoted to the Chief Justice in 2008, staying until 2014. Castille retired from office at the age of 70. He received his Bachelor of Science in Economics from Auburn University. He joined the U.S Marine Corps and received several awards along his journey. Castille received his J.D. from the University of Virginia School of Law after his medical retirement from the Marine Corps. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1997-07-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.37a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.37b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 73:36 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f6e2e9c06fa5a2ac33a87fe2a657e087.jpg 10b8a0ad3b4abd697b8fa025b5c473bc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-08-14 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ron Robinson Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Robinson is a native of Buffalo, New York. He has been Young America’s Foundation president for over four decades. Robinson received a Bachelor's degree in Political Science at Canisius College and a Juris Doctor degree at The Catholic University of America.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Ron Robinson is a native of Buffalo, New York. He has been Young America’s Foundation president for over four decades. Robinson served as the Director of the Long America's For Freedom (1977-1979), President of the United State Youth Council (1983-1985) and President of the International Youth Year Commission. He was also an advisor at the U.S. Department of Education during the Reagan administration. Robinson received a Bachelor's degree in Political Science at Canisius College and a Juris Doctor degree at The Catholic University of America.<br /><br /><br /></span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 62:13 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Howdy Doody; Nuclear threat; Conservatives; Leftist; Senator Jim Buckley; Lee Edwards; The Young Americans for Freedom; Senator Barry Goldwater; Vietnam War; New left.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:515,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:16370588},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Howdy Doody; Nuclear threat; Conservatives; Leftist; Senator Jim Buckley; Lee Edwards; The Young Americans for Freedom; Senator Barry Goldwater; Vietnam War; New left.</span> Subject LCSH Lawyers; Robinson, Ron--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ron Robinson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robinson, Ron ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Lawyers; Robinson, Ron--Interviews Description An account of the resource <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Robinson is a native of Buffalo, New York. He has been Young America’s Foundation president for over four decades. Robinson received a Bachelor's degree in Political Science at Canisius College and a Juris Doctor degree at The Catholic University of America.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Ron Robinson is a native of Buffalo, New York. He has been Young America’s Foundation president for over four decades. Robinson served as the Director of the Long America's For Freedom (1977-1979), President of the United State Youth Council (1983-1985) and President of the International Youth Year Commission. He was also an advisor at the U.S. Department of Education during the Reagan administration. Robinson received a Bachelor's degree in Political Science at Canisius College and a Juris Doctor degree at The Catholic University of America.<br /></span> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-08-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.100 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 62:13 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/026a78dfd480db03ef5dfacf38cf11de.mp3 61b61e00dc776830e0c0d9cd3a84ba5a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/88bf9370d60be4733617198dfa9eb086.jpg a826d33b2138197db9fcd8ca4fd43b4b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-01-26 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ronald Bayer Year of Graduation 1964 Biographical Text Ronald Bayer, PhD, is professor and co-chair for the History & Ethics of Public Health at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University Medical Center. His research focuses on issues of social justice and ethical matters related to AIDS, tuberculosis, illicit drugs and tobacco. He is an elected member of the Institute of Medicine of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, and has been a consultant to the World Health Organization on ethical issues related to public health surveillance, HIV and tuberculosis. He worked closely with Dr. Mathilde Krim, the founder of amfAR. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in public health; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni in AIDS research; Harpur College – Alumni at Columbia University Medical Center; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in public health; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni in AIDS research; Harpur College – Alumni at Columbia University Medical Center; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Ronald Bayer Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 26 January 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Okay, so please tell us your name, your birth date and where we are, right. RB: 00:06 So, I am Ronald Bayer. My birth date is January 16, 1943 just celebrated my 75th and we are at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University in New York City on January 27, 2018. IG: 00:25 Where did you grow up? RB: 00:27 Where? I grew up on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, before it was cool. I grew up on 10th Street and Second Avenue. It was a lower middle-class, working-class neighborhood. My- one of my funniest memories of that period of growing up was that I thought when people got older, they no longer spoke English. They had a different language. They had a different language. As they got older so old, people spoke Yiddish, they spoke Italian, they spoke Greek. They did not speak English. They aged into that language. Because I never met an old person who spoke English. So, it was an immigrant neigh- you know, nation- neighborhood of immigrants, Ukrainians, Italians. My building was an apartment house. My dad, my mother, was a milliner who worked from the- she stayed home for a while after I was born. But does she work in virtually a hat making factory for making women's hats, and then eventually moved over to B. Altman's department store, where she did custom hats for people buying fancy gowns and stuff. And my dad was a civil servant. Neither of them finished high school. My mother was born in Europe and came here when she was six. My father's parents came from Russia, and my grandfather, who's an Orthodox Jew, lived with us. IG: 02:08 Where in Russia did, they come from? RB: 02:12 Oh, I am sure it was like Lithuania someplace over there. IG: 02:16 Russian Empire. RB: 02:17 Yeah, the Russian Empire. And, I mean, the most important thing about that memory for me is that, although my parents never went to high school, my mother had very high cultural aspirations, and she took me to the Metropolitan Opera when I was nine years old. And she, you know, I knew always that I was going to college. I did not even know college I did not even know college was, but I knew I was going to college. I went to Stuyvesant High School, which then was on 15th Street, is now down at the Old-World Trade Center area, where I met lots of other kids whose parents had, I mean, some had parents who went to college, but a lot of the friends were first gens. They think they call them now and-and so [phone rings] when I- this is my wife, hello, and I guess what leads into the focus of our conversation is my last years in high school, the-the demonstrations at Woolworths around the country were taking place, so the sit ins had already begun in the south. And I remember on Saturday mornings going to a Woolworth on Broadway and Eighth Street to picket. I actually I was supposed to be going to synagogue, and I snuck out and went to picket, and I ultimately had to confess, but I did not get much flack for it. So that is my growing up, and I-I knew I was going to wait to college, and my parents did not have lots of money, and some count- and I somehow, I knew I wanted, I did not want, to go to City College or Queens College, and we did not have money for tuition. And so, I guess a counselor of some kind that Stuyvesant said, "Well, this is relatively new school." It had not yet moved to the new campus was just the process of moving, and it is, you know, it will be a campus out of town. It will be very different from being in the city, but, and it turned out that it had become kind of a go to place for people who, like me, who had aspirations but did not want to stay in the city, and did not have the money to go to private university, I think I got a New York State Scholarship, which paid part of my tuition, and then I landed in what is it called. It is not what is the town where the campus is? It is not Binghamton. It is Vest- Vestal. I landed in Vestal in those years. Glenn Bartle was the president, and had a hugely strong, I remember the correct the first two-year curriculum was, you know, they had a kind of a required course called Literature and Composition, which had used reading from the Greeks all the way in the sec- through the second year James Joyce and whatever it was like, built, I think, on the model of the University of Chicago in places where there was a strong core curriculum. And I felt liberated being there, I kind of met people from all different- I mean, most of my friends, actually, in the beginning, were New Yorkers, and that is one of the things that happened about Harpur. At that point, a lot of New Yorkers, first generation college kids came there, and it was the teachers were great, and the classes were small and-and that is where my, you know, stronger political consciousness began to emerge. IG: 06:09 Tell us about that. RB: 06:10 Yeah, well, I actually have a memory, and you probably can go online to find the stories about this. I think it was my second year. There was at that point a committee of the Congress called the house un–American Activities Committee, which was investigating so called subversives. It had its heyday during the McCarthy era, but they really went after left wing people, and if anyone-anyone who believed in civil liberties and civil rights was appalled by how they operated. People before called before the committee. They invoked the Fifth Amendment. They were held in contemporary Congress. And somehow, I do not know how I learned about it, but we learned, I think, that a film about the house un–American Activities Committee called this is thing that I remember operation UAC. And it was a film basically designed to denounce the opponents of the house un–American Activities Committee. And we learned that it was being shown at the American Legion Hall in Binghamton. So, a bunch of us went and they showed it. And as soon as soon as we finish, I got up and challenged it. I had never done anything like that before. I started reeling off all the- kind of lies. And then a few of my other friends jumped up and did the same thing, and it created a tumultuous situation. We were basically told to get out. It made the front page of the Binghamton Third speaker: 07:43 Press & Sun-Bulletins. RB: 07:45 Yeah, right. It was on the front page. IG: 07:47 What year was this? Do you remember? RB: 07:49 It had to be either (19)61 or (196)2. Third speaker: 07:55 When were you in Binghamton, Harpur College? RB: 07:58 Oh, from (19)60 to (19)64. Yeah, I came in the fall of (19)60 so. And I was startled. I mean, I mean, one of the newspapers was more liberal than the others, but it really made it sound like we were wild and-and I actually got called into some dean's office asked why I had done it, and did I think my behavior was appropriate? And I learned afterwards that she said- RB: 08:29 I said it was important to do, you know, they are taking away our constitution. You know, it was linked to my concern about liberal leftish causes, because the only people the committee was going after were, you know, they went after people like Arthur Miller and, you know, writers and whatever. So, I kind of, you know, it, kind of, I got my- IG: 08:29 What did you say? IG: 08:59 Did you know about Arthur Miller? Did you know about these titans of- RB: 09:04 Yes, I did [crosstalk] I did because when I was growing up, my best childhood friend, a guy named Paul Solman, who sometimes you may see on the on the TV hour, on Channel 13. He does business reporting, but he came from very left-wing family. He was my neighbor, and his father was an artist, and he was actually the one to brought me to my first Woolworth demonstration, and he- Arthur Miller's daughter was in his class at the Choate School House [Choate Rosemary Hall], which was a progressive private school. IG: 09:45 Which daughter? RB: 09:47 A daughter of Arthur Miller. IG: 09:51 Because there is one who is married to Daniel Day Lewis. She may have- Yeah. IG: 09:58 SDS? RB: 09:58 I have never met the daughter, no but I spent a lot of time in Paul's apartment with his parents. They were Dodger fans, which is what left wing Jewish people were, and the mother smoked cigarettes and wore jeans. No one wore jeans in the 1950s and I got a lot of political education in their apartment, some of which I accepted, some of which I-I did not. I cannot remember when I cannot remember actually, whether I, whether I was in high school when this happened? Yes, no, this is later in college. I think there was a, let me see- I cannot remember, let me, let me just jump into something else. So, the other thing that was a kind of way in which people- there was already, when we got there in 1960 already a group called some socialist club. RB: 10:01 No SDS came later. This was a, this was a local group of- they were, they were like juniors and seniors when I got there, and it was called the Social of something club, and they were pretty far left, and they had a- an advisor, who is a very famous social democrat named Kurt Shell, who was a professor of economics at Harpur, and he did not always agree with them, but he provided them with- because he believed in freedom of speech and whatever so but all of us, the younger people who had just come up from New York, used to meet every Friday night in a dormitory lounge, I cannot remember what it was called Dingman hall or something, and sang folk songs. And this sang folk songs with guitars. I did not play guitar, but I knew a lot of the songs. And we sang union songs. We sang solidarity forever, Pete Seeger type songs, and so and that was almost a routine on Friday nights to get together and sing these songs. And we brought people in who had never heard of these things before, who came became part of our world. There are- I actually had a few names come up to mind. And whether you will ever find these people. I am not sure even whether sure even whether some of them are even alive anymore. There was a woman named Jane Lagutis who was in my class, who went to Hunter High School. A lot of people who were there were Stuyvesant or Bronx Science or Hunter so Jane Lagutis, who then became a professor someplace, think of English someplace in New York State. My roommate at one point was someone named Dick Sherman, whose father was a labor activist in the--it was called the local 1199 which at that point was mostly a pharmacy union. So, it was a kind of fantastic learning. And since I was going to be in political science, it all seemed to fit together. And there was one other big demonstration that I remember, and that is-- bunch of us on how we kind of found the bandwidth to do this. We-we rented a bus to go to Washington, DC for a demonstration. It was not an anti-war demonstration because the war was a done then it was a demonstration supporting an end to nuclear testing. And I remember, we went down on a bus overnight to Washington, and we got to- we stayed in a church someplace and slept. We brought sleeping bags or something. We slept on the church. And I remember, I cannot remember who it was. The person who greeted us at this church was, he was an African American minister who may have just been stopping by. I do not know. I keep thinking- it cannot be, but I somehow have this vague memory that it was maybe Martin Luther King, but I cannot remember if that is correct. So that was, you know, it was kind of exciting to be part of the beginnings, and the beginnings, really, that they did not- the big- there was no SDS branch at Harpur [inaudible] I am not sure when SDS began. I think it was a little later. It was at University of Michigan, I think. But we, you know, I kind of- it-it was what drove it was the Civil Rights Movement and what was happening in the south. And, you know, there were the-the kind of echo demonstrations that took place places like Woolworth and whatever. But I think some of my colleagues one summer, actually went to, I do not know, Maryland or Virginia. There was a guy who was very active. I was not really close friends with him, but he was actually more active than I-- his name was Martin Liebowitz. I cannot tell you kind of pulling up these names, I have not heard them in years. Again, I do not know whether any of these people are still around. You know, when there were, you know, Binghamton was hardly all left. I mean, there was, there were, I think there was a branch of the young Americans of freedom on campus. There were, I know, I cannot remember any [inaudible]. I know there must have been moments when there was strife between our people, and they used to be. There were never. There were not fraternities at that time at Binghamton. They were called social clubs, and the people in the social clubs tended to be much more conservative. They were like, you know, frat boys. And of course, we all smoke cigarettes in the dormitories and at our, at our, I guess, you know, these, we think, in the (19)60s, of folk songs called hoot nannies. And that was, you know, when people got together at Carnegie Hall or whatever, and there would be a lead singer like Pete Seeger, and but they were not, they were not just songs. They were kind of our political education, and there was a way of developing political commitment. And I never, I never felt the school, in any way tried to thwart us or suppress us. I mean, the event in Binghamton with the House on American Activities Committee, you know, it was bad publicity. I do not know if someone from the administration said we do not necessarily agree with how they behave, but we-we support their right to express themselves in-in tradition of American freedom, I do not think anyone ever said that, but I know why my face was splashed on the front page of the newspaper, and that was it. IG: 18:10 You spoke of these activities giving you your political education. Was this political- did this political education involve any awareness of restrictions on the rights of women, of gays, of people of color? RB: 18:36 Well, certainly people of color. I-I remember, you know, contemporary feminism begins in the late (19)60s. So, it is interesting looking back at the issue of, I do not think, and the-the first decision of the Supreme Court on birth control was 1963 I was already a junior that was Griswold versus Connecticut, where the Supreme Court ruled that women, couples-couples, had a right to have their doctor prescribe birth control devices. And in uh, so it is actually interesting that I do not think the women's issue ever came up in that way. I do remember something about men and women in those days, I was in a small class, and someone who became my kind of girlfriend for a while was in the same class, freshman class, and I was talking, and she said, "Do not you ever shut up?" [laughs] And in a way, I hear echoes of that now when women say, "You know, men were always the first one to take the stage, take to talk, and we have to fight our way onto the stage." Maybe it is not this quite the same, but so I remember this memory of this woman named Judy, and it was sort of, I guess what I was being blabbering, you know, you know I was, I was actually more like my mother than like my father always talking. So, and there was never an issue of gay stuff. I mean that too, all this, I mean this was the-the first major moment in in gay liberation began around the bar in the village. I think it was 1968 as well. And it was only in 1973 that the American Psychiatric Association decided that homosexuality was not a disease actually written about that. IG: 21:04 I know. RB: 21:06 So, I actually- so let me I actually think and so by the time I left, I really found- felt that I had my political wings, you know. And I felt so when I went to the University of Chicago for graduate school, and this is 1964 was the Goldwater election, I already felt that. And then we would get involved in demonstrations against the beginning of the war in Vietnam and draft and whatever I felt like I had already sort of been-this was not my first entry into politics. The other thing that isn't directly related to, you know, activism is that my education in terms of developing an interest in sort of socialist thought began in college. I, you know, I read my first marks. I read, you know, I just- it just seemed, you know, this is what, this is what you did. And I was a political scientist, and I took political theory classes, and I took, you know- IG: 22:31 This is at Binghamton? RB: 22:33 In Binghamton, mm-hmm. So, it all fit together, and that is why I went on to graduate school at the University of Chicago, but I remember feeling that I came to Chicago, which is a very powerful intellectual tradition. I came to Chicago from a place that was pretty unknown in those years, and I had classmates who were from Harvard and Yale and Princeton and, you know, Berkeley, I felt I came there intellectually and academically completely- I never felt, "Oh, I have a lot of catching up to do." And that was a great gift. I mean, you know, for a person who's the first person in his family to go to college, and who-who- Oh! And, I mean, I- how could I miss this? Of course, it was my, you know, my junior year when Kennedy was assassinated. And I remember that. I do not remember any politics around that. I uh- IG: 23:48 How-how so? RB: 23:49 Well, I mean, I-I remember the day I had- actually, there was a bank across from the campus at that point, on Vestal Parkway--was that, what it is called. And I was going to get some money out of the bank and-and nothing had happened yet. And the way back, I- someone was lowering the flag, and I could not understand what it was. And I went to the Student Union, and there, you know, and there is actually a picture of me in the yearbook of that year with a friend in the kind of cafeteria just staring at each other blankly listening to the news. And I remember those- the following days. I remember actually being it was around Thanksgiving time, and I remember being at a someone was- he was already living he had an apartment in town, and we were watching TV, and Oswald was being transferred from one prison to the other. Then Ruby came and shot him. And we watched this thing on TV, was an unbelievable thing to watch, you know, but I do not remember any- I do not actually remember. And I remember watching the funeral and stuff, but I do not remember, you know, what the political, what the political fallout was? I actually the other political, momentous political event that I remember in those years was the confrontation over Russian missiles in Cuba. And I remember really feeling that when I went to sleep that night, would we be would I wake up? It was very scary. I guess Russian ships were moving towards Cuba. America said, "If you cross this line," whatever, and then there was this backing off. And yes, we felt there was a lot of- I know among us, there was a lot of sympathy for Cuba and the Cuban Revolution. Cuban revolution is 1959 I think, or 1960 so I remember, I remember, you know, Cas- you know, those opposed to Castro, who are Cubans all seem to be like fascist reactionaries, I do not know. And the idea that the US government was going to try to overthrow the Cuban government, and they tried to with a- you know, with an invasion, that was a big moment of, I do not know what kind of demonstrations we had, but I know it was a big topic of anger and anxiety among us. IG: 26:50 Were there any Cuban students that you know of at Harpur? RB: 26:53 It was, it was very [crosstalk] It was very white. RB: 26:58 A few Asians. Actually, a woman who went to Hunter High School, actually also who was first generation was there. Her last name was, I think it was Dottie Chin. I do not remember. It is amazing what you can you know, so and I did not- after graduating, most of us sort of dispersed. I did not- I remained friends for a while with one of my roommates who I think lives in the Albany area now--his name was Robert Puzak. I what- one of my roommates died many years ago. He was- actually came from a Republican family. I had never met a Republican, to tell you, he came from a Republican family upstate. He had had polio as a child. He was a brilliant English major. It was funny though he when he took them to go to graduate school, when he took the GRE, he got like 99th percentile in English, and he got like fourth percentile in math, no one had ever seen such a low score. And I, he did fine. He went on to someplace special, you know. So that was it. And I kind of, I, I am sorry I lost touch with those people. But you know- IG: 26:58 Very white. IG: 28:42 How would your classmates remember you from that time? RB: 28:56 I think outspoken. I actually, I, you know, I-I-I-I think enough of-of oral history and the pitfalls of oral history not to kind of make things I feel I something about the-the wonderful wonders of oral history, but also some of the pitfalls of oral history, where people feel kind of impelled to make up a few stories that seem maybe they have not, maybe they did not. I do not want to do that because I think that- I mean, I think it is fair to say that I was a central figure in the, in the politics, I actually sort of interesting. It is a little different. But the- a year, my third year, I was a junior, a cousin of mine came to Harpur, and he was, he was not as political as I, but he- one spring day, who had been a long winter, he called together a bunch of people, and they had the first stepping on the coat celebration. His name was Larry Kressel. He unfortunately died some years ago of cancer, and there are pictures of him and people throwing that coat on the ground and jumping on them. So, it was a different kind that was, in a way, a celebration of life, you know- IG: 31:07 Celebration of spring. RB: 31:08 Yeah, yep. And I thought that was great. And he had, that was the class that had Andy Bergman in it, the filmmaker who might be worth trying to get. I do not know if he is Andy Bergman lives in New York. He was, he was the filmmaker who made Young Frankenstein. He made, oh, he was, at one point, like up, you know, among the- I would not say it, you know, sort of, he sort of seemed like the Woody Allen and his age or something. Third speaker: 31:39 Is it more independent movies? RB: 31:42 No, it was- he was, you know, he worked with Mel Brooks and-and, oh, Mel Brooks was in his movies. And if you look up his in Bergman, B, E, R, G, M, A, N, Andrew, and he might even remember me, because we were moved in the same sort of circles. IG: 32:07 What did the campus look like at the time? RB: 32:10 It was very small. There was where the library building was- it was the library and the faculty offices. It was only two stories high, across from it, sort of an L shaped brick building was the only where all the classes were, and there was the science building. IG: 32:45 Where was the science building in relation? RB: 32:47 it was between the academic building and the library. Everything was very spare. There were no- I think at some point we began to have the idea of planting new trees, because it seemed it was raw looking. I mean, all the buildings were new, and the dormitories were fine, and each dormitory there were four dormitories, then two women, two men. Dingman Hall, cannot remember the names of the other places, and they all had a big lounge. IG: 33:18 Is that where you spent most of your free time- RB: 33:22 No, the-the student, student union, where the cafeteria is- was, and there was a, oh yes, this is no longer there, I am sure. When you came down the central, what was then the central drive, there was a little bridge that separated the- that linked the Student Union and the dormitories, and it was supported by four pillars that were unusual because they-they were, they were normally these things supporting a little bridge. It was called the Esplanade, not there anymore. And so, the normally, you have a pillar that looks like this. You know, narrower top. No, yes, this is normally what you think of. And this had it came down like this. And it was just a design decision. It was not a very beautiful place. But I-I actually, you know, and I remember I had never seen fall leaves before. I mean, there are fall colors in New York, but not like I remember how incredible the hills were around the campus, you know, in the fall, it was just incredibly beautiful. So, you know, I mentioned that I had brought- I saw one of the groups I helped to found is called the International Relations club. Why we called that? I do not know. It was basically a way of talking about the political club. And we invited speakers to come. So, after many-many efforts, I-I contacted Eleanor Roosevelt, and I said, we would love you to come to talk and-and she said, you know, I guess I was in touch with her secretary, who said, Mrs. Roseville, speaking fee is, I do not know what she said, $3,000 $1,200 something like that. It was a long time ago, so that was a lot of money. And I said, unfortunately, we do not have any money we can pay for her airfare to-to Binghamton. And finally, I was persistent enough that she finally said, yes. IG: 35:59 How were you persistent? RB: 36:00 I kept writing, take no for a no, yeah. And I-I just said, you know, I described who we were, the nature of our students, the kind of students at the school. And she thought point, was writing a column, a daily column, for the New York Post from the New York Post was not a rag, and it was called my day. So, we got her, I do not know how we there was another person I remember bringing up who was. I cannot remember anything about her speech, no, but I remember her saying- IG: 36:40 What was her demeanor? RB: 36:42 Oh, she was talking about her years in the founding-founding of the UN that was it. Of course, we gave her corsage. And I actually remember that the person who ran the cafeteria made a special dinner for us, about 12 of us, and the main course was Chicken Kiev, which was, I do not even know chicken- I think it is, it is a breast of chicken wrapped around butter or something. So, the other person, we and I, actually, is it? I have a picture of it someplace. There was a very prominent left-wing journalist, not an apologist for the Soviet Union at all, but quite left, named I. F Stone, and he had a weekly newsletter. I. F. Stones Weekly, and we brought him to campus. So, we, I guess we tried to bring dissident- I mean, I do not know how many we did. I cannot remember, but we wanted to bring somewhat dissident voices to campus, and so those are the- RB: 37:08 Was the president there to meet Eleanor Roosevelt? RB: 37:59 I certainly know the dean was I at the airport, actually, and it was held the- her speech was held in the nicest, actually, I thought the nicest space on the old camp that campus those things was the auditorium. And there was a very beautiful auditorium, it seemed to me. It was wood peddled, sort of a little semicircular. It was in what was then the only academic building. It was out of using the gym, which, you know, sorry, big but ugly. So, I have stone whatever, and that is about it. I think I am trying to- no- so the years I was there was- they were the Kennedy years--right Kennedy and then Johnson becoming president in 1963 or (196)4. Oh, I do, yes. Oh, it did not happen there, but I that was also it was during that period that the-the big civil rights march on Washington took place, and we were actually shifting. Harpur had been on a semester system, and for reasons I never quite understood. They decided to go to a trimester system. So, in that transition year, which was actually the transition between my junior and senior years, there was a longer break, longer summer break, and I got a job, I do not know, some kind of stupid summer job in New York City-- just to make some money, and I remember taking a train down to the March on Washington, and I remember Martin Luther King's speech. I do not recall actually having met my Harpur colleagues while we were down there on the march. So, I do not think I was in touch with them about let us meet up or something. Well, there were no cell phones. The idea of meeting up in a crowd was a little different. So, I actually, I mean, I know this isn't about, you know, celebrating. I mean, I guess oral history sometimes we are about celebrating. But I-I think I was given the academic opportunity of a lifetime, and I sort of grew up. I, you know, started in college when I was, what, 16-17, I was 21 when I was just different. And- IG: 40:53 Do you remember any, any professors who made a particular impression on you? Were they- RB: 41:00 Yeah, well, they are all dead. No, yes. There was actually my Literature and Composition teacher- my first year was someone named. His last name was Huppe, H, U, P, P, E. RB: 41:04 And he was fantastic. He was a Chaucer scholar. I remember that. And I remember learning from him how to recite the first lines of [citing in Middle English]. And I mean, what is this Middle English stuff? So, he was my teacher. And to have a man like that with 15 or 18 students in a room just discussing literature was fantastic, and I had a- there was an economist whose name was Peter Vukasin, who was really a great teacher. It was another teacher I- it is odd that I cannot remember the names of my political science teachers, although that was my field, I remember one of the things, one of the things that was interesting about that period is in every- well, there are only four dormitories. There was an apartment for a faculty member, and the dormitory I lived in, the professor was named- he was an English professor. I never had him as a teacher. His name was Peter Mattheisen [Paul Mattheisen], and it was a thing that the door of the faculty member department was virtually always open in the evening. So, I remember spending a lot of time hanging out down there. I think I do not have anything more to say. So, who are most of the people you are trying to reach out to kind of post me, after me, or...? IG: 41:04 Yes. IG: 43:26 They are graduates from the 1960s. RB: 43:28 Okay. IG: 43:29 So, it is a big range. We started with 1967 because there was a reunion for that year last year. So, we tapped some of those people, and we have conducted about- Third speaker: 43:48 Six, seven, I think. IG: 43:48 -interviews. RB: 43:50 Was that [inaudible] who had organized that reunion from the (19)67? Do you know? IG: 43:57 Of (19)67? RB: 43:58 Yeah, the one you said, the first- IG: 43:59 Well, the Alumni Association, but the Alumni Association, but the library, also had a luncheon for these graduates. Just tell us a little bit about what you do? RB: 44:19 Now? IG: 44:19 Now, and just tell us about some of the high points of your career. RB: 44:27 So, after graduating from Harpur, I actually was lucky enough to get a Woodrow Wilson fellowship, and which supports graduate study, and I went to the University of Chicago for a PhD in political science. It was- those were heavy political days, but I and I was also a pretty devoted student, and um, I um, I-I became very interested in-I mean, I remember being at the University of Chicago and having professors like Hannah Arendt. You know when Hans Morgenthau and Leo Strauss, who's a founding figure of the very conservative intellectual, but I remember studying some Socratic dialog with him in a class where they went over every line and explicated it. And I-I got very involved in politics, actually. And I actually in one, one of the years, I guess, was 1967 there was a demonstration--it was before the Democratic Convention year. But I got was an anti- I guess it was an anti-war demonstration, yes, and in one of the main squares in Chicago, and they were trying to block us, and I was trying to move forward. Anyway, I got arrested, and I was clubbed by a cop, and I had my hand broken, and I was okay, but, you know, but it was not okay. Actually, I was in jail for about eight hours, and my-my school, my chair, the chair of my department, was very supportive, and they provided us with lawyers and but I kind of lost. Then I- my feet- I had committed myself to doing work on African politics, nations that were becoming liberated. And I- that was the moment was happening, Kwame Nkrumah in Ghana and Houphouet-Boigny in Ivory Coast or whatever. And I-I went to Africa. I was- I remember my advisor said, "Ron, if you are not going to do this dissertation, do not go. Do not do it for me. Do not go. Take a breath. Think about it. I said "No-no-no, I am going. I am going, I am going." And I went. And I really was completely- I did some research, but my heart was not in it. There were all these demonstrations back home against the war, and I wanted to do it. I actually organized demonstrations in Accra outside the American Embassy. Finally got invited to dinner by the ambassador, who basically told me to stop. So, my academic career took a kind of a bump, and I came back, and I spent two years trying to write the dissertation on trade unions in Ghana, and I just could not do it. And you know, those are the days of note cards. I had piles of note cards at my desk, and I would keep pushing them forward and pulling them forward at that point just because of [ talking to his colleague] IG: 47:43 1015 minutes more. RB: 48:03 Yeah, let us check I have- it is in. I make- what I may have to do is ask you to stay here, and then I will come- do you have an appointment right after this? IG: 48:10 Not right after, we have an appointment at 1:30 on, I think 88th on Riverside. RB: 48:16 Oh, you are going to be there. I live on 88th on Broadway. [laughs] IG: 48:18 Oh really. Next door neighbors. He is another professor, but I am not quite sure, but he is not affiliated with Columbia. RB: 48:28 Uh-huh. Well, the only one I know who lived here is a guy who taught English at [inaudible] I do not think he went Harpur. IG: 48:35 His name is John Spiegel. RB: 48:37 Oh, I know John Spiegel. IG: 48:38 Really? RB: 48:39 Yes, he was, he was a friend of Larry Kressels and whatever. Of course, you said that, [inaudible]. So, it is a meeting now, James [talking to his colleague]. Okay, so anyway, so anyway, I-I happened to get a job working one of the early methadone maintenance programs in New York. I knew enough my brother was sort of involved with drugs, and he knew a lot of people involved. So, I got involved working. I never wrote it about Africa. Okay, so I got a job working in the- this method on maintenance program, and suddenly I realized, oh, this is really interesting, drug use, psychiatry, law, criminal law, criminalization. And ultimately, the idea came to me about writing a dissertation about that. I studied, none of it in graduate school, and I wrote a very good dissertation. And when I finished, it was- I started graduate school 1964 was 1973 when I finished, but I have been working in this drug program for two years. I got an eventually, got a 1979 I got a post doc at a place called the Hastings Center, which was a bioethics research institute. I had never studied bioethics before, but I was interested in relation with law and psychiatry. That then I feel like Forrest Gump. That then led me to the- I got at this Hasting Center I- when I started working there, someone said, you know, you are really interested in law psychiatry, how values shape psychiatry. I have a great idea for a book, the decision of the American Psychiatric Association to declassify homosexuality as a disease I did not know anything about it. He said, I know all the major players, and I will get you access to them as for interviews. And so, I did it. It was my first book about homosexuality in American psychiatry. And it was sort of, kind of became entailing the history of that moment. It was a landmark. It, you know, built on gay liberation, women's movement, whatever. And then I- while working at the Hastings Center, it was 1983-(19)82 someone came to us who was on the board of trustees and said, there was this new disease. She was a scientist working at Sloan Kettering. This new disease has many ethical issues. The research ethics are incredibly complicated. Her name was Mathilde Krim. Mathilde Krim just died. IG: 51:24 I know, I know, I know who that is. RB: 51:26 And I just, actually, just went to her memorial service. So, Mathilde Krim gave us our first grant to do ethical work on HIV. I then became completely involved in writing about ethical issues, and all my work focused on HIV. [side conversation with colleague regarding meeting time] All my work and I actually got to know Mathilde Krim quite well. I- it is like she was both a formidable activist, a brilliant scientist, and very-very rich. Her husband owned, United Artists, the film company, and then he owned another film company. They had a townhouse on 69th Street between Madison Park. It is like out of movies. He walked into this house, and there was a spiral staircase, and there was a butler who opened the door, and there was a movie theater on the ground floor that is had about 80 because [inaudible] was a business. So, because she supported my work a lot, and then she created a foundation called the American Foundation for AIDS Research that a lot of my work was funded. IG: 51:26 Were you attached to any university at that point? RB: 51:39 No, I was still working at the Hastings Center. This is the final piece of luck. I had been asked to give a talk at the board meeting of Planned Parenthood in Washington, DC in 1986 or (198)7, I cannot remember the year, it was the first talk anyone had presented on the issue of women and HIV. And I knew something about the issues because of issues around pregnancy and the transmission of virus from mother to child. At any rate, in the audience was sitting who was on the Board of Trustees of Planned Parenthood [inaudible] named Alan Rosenfield. Alan Rosenfield was the dean of this school. He came up to me after the talk and said, "Have you ever thought of coming to Columbia?" I said, "Actually, I am interested in the possibility of moving. I have been at the Hastings Center for nine or 10 years. Yes, I am interested." "Well, come see me in my office." In the meantime, uh- and so when I was trying to figure out what to do, I went to see Mathilde Krim, and she and Arthur had dinner for me in their palace, and said her husband was on the board of, he was on the Board of Trustees of Columbia. So, he said, I think you should go to Columbia. So, it did not, it was not just a show over. I mean, I, you know, I had written a lot, but, you know, this depart the department I am in said, what was academic credentials? He does not do traditional work and whatever, but they- I am basically, Rosenfield basically [crosstalk] IG: 54:35 Do- done your PhD by then? RB: 54:37 Oh, yes, I finished my PhD. And I was actually, I had finished my finished my PhD in (19)76 and I worked at the Hastings Center until (19)80 until- I was a person. Oh, I finished. I had a postdoc, which was a year, and I am coming to the end of the year. I had already my book is already in galleries, and the director, a guy named Dan Callahan, says, "What are you doing next year?" I said, "I am not quite sure." He said, "Would you like a staff position here?" So again, look, and I grabbed it, and that opened the whole world of bioethics to me, which led to the research on HIV, which led to, we did the no one had done work on the ethics of infectious disease until that point, because infectious disease was not an issue in the US. Bioethics was all about the clinical relationship. So, I, so then I came to Columbia in 1988 so it is now 30 years. Yeah, 30 years. And I came with the idea of teaching a course, oh, I came with a grant from the American Foundation for AIDS research, a five year, you know, these schools require a lot of grant money, a five-year fellowship to continue work on the ethics of AIDS. So, I came here, and I had to think about what courses I was going to teach. So, I decided I would teach a course on the ethics of on HIV, the age of epidemic. By that time, I had written a book about the AIDS epidemic, and then I developed one of the first courses in the United States on the ethics of public health, not the ethics, but not bioethics, not the ethics of the doctor patient relationship, but how you think about the ethical challenges raised in doing public health policy, whether it is about smoking or diet or-or motorcycle helmets or seat belts or or-or infectious disease or justice [crosstalk] IG: 56:46 So, what are the- you know, just give us a glimpse into what the ethics- RB: 56:52 Well, for example, yeah. I mean, for example- IG: 56:54 Smoking. RB: 56:55 Well, you know, people-people choose to smoke. They choose to smoke for many-many reasons, because they have been pushed into it by business. They have been seduced into it as children. They become addicted. On the other hand, stopping people from smoking because it hurts them is problematical if you believe that competent adults have a right to make all kinds of decisions, including to refuse therapy if even though that means they are going to die. So, the question about smoking was preeminently how far the state can go in-in pushing, nudging, shoving people to lead a healthier life. It is not an accident that most of the original aids efforts control efforts focused on innocent victims, non-smokers, who were in the presence of smokers and children where there is no ethical problem, you have no right to infect the air of smoker a non-smoker. But why do they focus on that when the real issue was 500,000 people dying every year smoking because it touched a raw nerve in America. We have come very far. We go pretty far now. We banned smoking on parks and beaches. We banned smoking in public housing projects. We this is so called a smoke free campus, and some of it, I think, is a stretch in terms of the harm to others part. So, tracing that arc, look, America is the only country that permits- does not regulate smoking advertising because of our First Amendment. From an ethical point of view, there should be no advertising, but our constitution is different, and it is not simply because business controls the story. I mean, the ACLU defends the right of tobacco companies to advertise. IG: 58:46 How interesting. RB: 58:46 And the other story that is paradigmatic is how you get to a position where you say that someone wearing a motorcycle not-not only is advised you, but must wear a motorcycle helmet or be fined. And the way the case was typically and we knew that people did not wear helmets smashed in their heads. They died more frequently. They had severe brain injuries. But when the move to mandate motorcycle helmets started, and there was a federal law that said, if you do not have motorcycle law, you do not get federal funding for Highway Safety. The argument was, if you get caught in an accident, if you are in an accident, then an ambulance has to pick you up, take you to a publicly funded emergency room, and where you may have to stay and then be hospitalized, where you may be have Medicaid, and then you may be crippled and have to be on public assistance. How can you say that it only affects you? So, it was a very stretch of harm to others in terms of economic burden. So those are the kinds of issues I love to teach about, and I have taught these courses for a long time. We revamped the curriculum here about eight years ago so that all incoming 400 students take a common curriculum. It is a [inaudible], and the first among the first six lectures they get, all 400 of them are the ethics of public health that I do. A colleague does the history of public health, someone does human rights and public health, and they do what they learn, Biostatistics and whatever. But I actually feel that one of my great contributions academically is that I sort of helped I am not the only one who does it now at all, but to spark the interest in the ethics of public health, not simply the ethics of clinical research. And that is my concerto. [laughs] IG: 1:00:42 Wonderful. Do you have any- I think that we are going to wrap up soon. RB: 1:00:49 Okay. IG: 1:00:52 So just in general, what do you think that there any lessons that you learned from your time at Harpur. RB: 1:01:01 Um, I- there were two things. I think I have no idea what the socioeconomic mixes of Harpur in this moment, and it was basically a white school when I went there, although, as I said, there were a few Asians, but there were lots of first-generation college students, not all, but enough. Kids who came from New York who would have gone to one of the city colleges, City College Queens, Brooklyn. I think creating a place that is- brings first generation college students as a mission, not just if they happen to apply, but as a mission. It is a great thing to do as a public university, and it is a great thing to do for what you- the kind of context you create. I know it is you know, may sound like, you know, old story now everyone wants, you know, campus that has diversity on it, and sometimes the diversity language seems to be a little kind of hot air stuff. I mean, the talk about diversity, but I actually think creating, making it a mission to draw people who are first generation people, and hopefully being able to bring dreamers in and to protect them. Columbia has been very good in its public statements about dreamers, and I think that so. The other thing is, and I do not know how much it remained, I think the people who created the curriculum at Harpur back then were very influenced by the idea that all incoming students should have some kind of core curriculum. We had. It was either one or two years of a social science sequence and wanted, and at least I know it was two years of literature and composition. It was mostly literature, and you had to do some writing, but it was literature. It was the most I mean; I am not a literature person. The fact that I read everything from Chaucer to Flaubert and James Joyce as part of a standard curriculum that was, it was viewed as, this is what everyone with an education need. I thought that was just spectacular. There is so much emphasis now on specialization, on skills, building Third speaker: 1:03:57 Standardized. RB: 1:03:58 Yeah, and I kind of yeah, so I actually, I understand all the pressures to do that. I see it here because, you know, our students in a school of tuition here at Columbia is about $60,000 a year when you get an MPH, you do not. It is not like getting an MD. And, you know- IG: 1:04:19 [inaudible] MD students get an MPH? RB: 1:04:20 Oh, absolutely, yes-yes-yes, that helps. But when our students get out, the income they can expect is very different from an MD and-and they and they want to make sure they have a job, something skills. So, I teach in a unit that teaches history and ethics in public health. We admit, in our department, we admit 150-130 students a year, [inaudible] of them choose to do this. There are many-many important things they can learn. But and I understand why, because they, when they go to an employer, they want to say, I know how to do this statistical method. I knew that statistical method. I know how to run a clinical- I know how to run a focus. Group and how to do things. So, I understand it, but it is for the same reason that many universities they have- they are getting rid of, you know, their universities get rid of their- I mean, I imagine you could count on hand the number of universities that teach Latin or Greek anymore, and there are even universities that have given up on Roman, you know, Italian, they may have Spanish and French and German and now Chinese, but there are many schools that just do not have comprehensive literature departments anymore. They are not supportable and-and you know from your time at-at Columbia that these places run on grants and gifts. You know, did you hear about this big gift they got from this guy, Vagelos [Dr. Roy Vagelos]? IG: 1:05:46 I heard about it. I also heard about the green gift to the neurosciences. RB: 1:05:54 Yes, right. IG: 1:05:55 [crosstalk] 200 million. RB: 1:05:56 Yeah. IG: 1:05:57 And actually, Dr. Fishback and I worked on the original proposal- RB: 1:06:02 Really? IG: 1:06:03 -Neuroscience Institute. RB: 1:06:04 Yeah, it is, you know, it is down on 100- but no, this guy, Vagelos, was the head of Merck. IG: 1:06:09 Yes. RB: 1:06:09 He gave $250 million to the school so that, no, this is interesting. He also built a building there, which is kind of a very modern building, two $50 million the income of which is to make sure that no student graduates medical school with debt. [crosstalk] IG: 1:06:13 That is tremendous. RB: 1:06:23 You know, he was the head of Merck, so he is very rich. And at any rate, I have felt, you know, as I said, I just celebrated my 75th birthday. You know, I am, I feel really privileged in many ways, but I, you know, I kind of being dogged and being ready to jump at opportunities, and sometimes just being lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time, IG: 1:07:07 Is that, is that one of the important life lessons? RB: 1:07:11 To me, it is. I cannot say that I would have been here had I, you know, for example, what would have happened had I trudged through and finished my dissertation on African Trade Unions, I would have been, I think, a kind of mediocre academic teaching political science- I could not do it, and I- it, it took a lot to decide I am not going to do that this. I am going to do another one. And I got a lot of you know, people around me were appalled that I was not writing my dissertation. My- I had a friend in the methadone clinic, a nurse, who said, you know, she was in a group therapy. She said, “You know, Ron, there is a guy in my group. He is 45 years old, and he still says he is writing his dissertation.” And people in the group do not know where to look when they hear him say it, because it is clearly not going to happen and he cannot face it. Do not let that happen to you. It is kind of scary when you hear that from people, because you know that you could just slip through the cracks. Third speaker: 1:08:15 I changed my topic. I know the feeling. So, I was doing something. I took all the prep work to do- to write that. When it was time to write it, I could not do it. I went through what you went through, and I wrote something totally different. RB: 1:08:32 Are you Russian, or? Third speaker: 1:08:33 I am Turkish. RB: 1:08:34 Turkish, uh, [speaking Turkish]. Actually, got some dirty words too. I had a Turkish girlfriend once at the University of Chicago. Third speaker: 1:08:47 Oh yeah. RB: 1:08:49 Her name is Ipek. Third speaker: 1:08:51 Yeah, means silk. RB: 1:08:55 Okay, I really have to [inaudible]. Yeah. IG: 1:08:57 Thank you so much. RB: 1:08:58 Thank you very much. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ronald Bayer Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in public health; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni in AIDS research; Harpur College – Alumni at Columbia University Medical Center; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bayer, Ronald ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Ronald Bayer, PhD, is professor and co-chair for the History & Ethics of Public Health at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University Medical Center. His research focuses on issues of social justice and ethical matters related to AIDS, tuberculosis, illicit drugs and tobacco. He is an elected member of the Institute of Medicine of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, and has been a consultant to the World Health Organization on ethical issues related to public health surveillance, HIV and tuberculosis. He worked closely with Dr. Mathilde Krim, the founder of amfAR. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-01-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Ronald Bayer.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-01-26 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 70:44 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fb7637475b6f090d4d5a3c0422ff5833.mp3 18d3de733eb976b6b79cb769f631e175 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 25 May 2013 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rondic Zerbari Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 44:38 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Rondic is the oldest of her three sisters and two brothers and has an engineering degree from University in Kurdistan. Roondic arrived in Binghamton after marrying a Kurdish refugee and currently lives with her husband and children in Broome County. Keywords Kurdistan; Iran; United Nations; United States; Gulf War; PKK; Second Gulf War; Food Shortage; Religion; Christian Kurds; Jewish Kurds; Dohuk Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Rondic Zebari Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 25 May 2013 Interview Setting: Binghamton University Library -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:10 AD: Can I have your name one more time? 0:12 RZ: Rondic Zebari. 0:14 AD: Okay, and where were you born? 0:18 RZ: In Kurdistan Duhok. 0:19 AD: Duhok and so uh, how long did you live there? 0:26 RZ: Twenty-five years. 0:27 AD: Twenty-five years? Okay we will get more details about Kurdistan that is for sure. So, did you live in Duhok the whole time? 0:41 RZ: No, I spent some time in Akre, it is like two hours away distance from Duhok. 0:53 AD: Is it another city or village? 0:55 RZ: Another city, yes but smaller city than Duhok. 0:59 AD: Smaller city. 1:01 RZ: Duhok is the biggest than the Bahdini (Mantaka) area. I studied elementary school and middle school in there and high school and college in Duhok. 1:15 AD: Okay so what did you study? 1:17 RZ: Engineering. 1:18 AD: Oh, what kind of engineering? 1:20 RZ: Water Resources. 1:21 AD: Wow, so how many siblings do you have? 1:27 RZ: Three sisters and two brothers. 1:30 AD: This is small Kurdish family. 1:33 RZ: It is an average. [laughs] 1:36 AD: Yeah, they have fourteen kids. 1:39 RZ: And I am the older one. 1:40 AD: You are the older one- So did all your siblings go to school, get education? 1:49 RZ: Yes. 1:50 AD: Where are they now in Kurdistan? Or- 1:52 RZ: Yeah, all of them are in Kurdistan only me here and my husband- he is my cousin. 2:01 AD: Who is your husband? 2:04 RZ: Shivan. 2:05 AD: Shivan is? 2:06 RZ: Shivan Zebari, yes. 2:07 AD: Okay. 2:07 RZ: They were there in 2006 and then I just graduated from university we met there, and we did our engagement there. 2:18 AD: I see. 2:19 RZ: And then he came back to here; he applied for documents for me in order to get visa for me. And then in 2007, the end of 2007 I came here. We did our wedding here. 2:36 AD: Oh, I see, I see. 2:37 RZ: Yes, and I now have three kids, a daughter and two sons. 2:42 AD: Wow, wow, congratulations. 2:45 EI: How old are you? 2:46 RZ: Twenty-nine. 2:47 EI: Twenty-nine ok. 2:48 AD: Wow, so let me ask you this, your entire family still over there in Kurdistan? 2:56 RZ: Yes. 2:57 AD: You are the only one here? 2:58 RZ: I am the only one, yes. 2:59 AD: So, okay. So how was your life in Kurdistan, like when you were growing up, so because you spent your full life over there and we can get different perspective as a child and teenager and young adult you know different stages like what did you see? How were things before the gulf war? Let us start with that. 3:30 RZ: Right, I do not quite remember the time before the war because I was little. In 1991 the big revolution in Kurdistan I was seven, eight years old. And at that time, because my parents were always talking about Kurdistan and Peshmergas and Barzani, when that happened it was just like fresh memories coming back and, in my head, because I did not understand when they were talking about it, when they were listening to Shivan Parwer’s songs. It did not mean anything when I was a child. And then it has, meant something. So, beginning of my like learning about world it was Kurdistan I have blood in Kurdistan. Before that, they did not start like switching language. I studied Arabic, elementary middle school and high school I studied in Arabic. 4:48 AD: So, you are fluent in Arabic? 4:50 RZ: Exactly, but only one year after me was Kurdish. So I was like chasing in Arabic. 4:55 AD: I see, so after 1991 they changed the rule. 5:00 RZ: Anyone which is one year younger than me would studied Kurdish. 5:07 AD: I see. 5:09 RZ: It was hard for like people at my age, a little bit younger than me, a little bit older than me. Because who fail in one class it would be in Kurdish language [next year for them] and it was hard because to study in Arabic more all the subjects you know mathematic and bio physics chemistry that was all in Arabic language and then switching into Kurdish language it was very hard for a lot of my friends. In the neighborhood, all like talking to each other, all the friends it was a lot harder for some of my friends. That cause a lot of them to drop out of school. 5:58 AD: I see. 5:58 RZ: Yes. And later on, I mean the, I do not like the, when I came here after finishing university and all of that, I love the education system here. It is very hard in there. I think the reason why live in America it is because of the Education system. It is very flexible here. There is very hard. In university if you fail one class, you have to start the whole year in the next year, yeah. 6:37 AD: Yeah, it is hard. 6:40 RZ: It is very hard. 6:42 AD: So, do you remember the gulf war, like 6:47 RZ: Not really, no. 6:49 AD: So, you did not leave Duhok during the war? 6:52 RZ: Yeah, we left we went to Iran instead of Turkey. 6:58 AD: Okay, so do you remember? 7:00 RZ: I remember some stuff, yeah. 7:02 AD: What do you remember? 7:06 RZ: Then my family was smaller and I had one little brother I was the oldest I was seven years old and my sister was three and just my brother was new born. We were a small family. It was easy for us. But we travelled with my, our relative, my father’s relatives. It was very hard for them because they were a big family like my husband’s family. It was harder for them who had elderly people with them. My grandparents, they were died before 1991. So, it was like easier for us to travel. 7:51 AD: I see, I see. So do you remember the camps? 7:56 RZ: Yes. 7:56 AD: How was it? 7:57 RZ: It was cool for me, I do not remember any like bad stuff. 8:00 AD: You do not? Well that is okay because this is your memory, this is your history it does not need to be the same with Zhiman, you know or with your mother in-law. It is your memory. So what do you remember? 8:16 RZ: I remember we were always visiting the big cities in Iran, like Razaiya and I do not remember the- these names, but they were very nice and beautiful cities, because right then in Iraq it was not like very civilized country. Iran was more civilized and clean cities, beautiful one, like people more civilized unlike Iraq. And I remember there was a river in there we were all days like going to the river and swimming. My father love swimming and yes. 9:00 AD: Oh, that is nice. 9:02 RZ: Like always holding me and his shoulder we were going to the deep water. 9:09 AD: Wow, so that is nice. 9:11 RZ: It was very nice but the problem was the river was going through a lot of villages and they had animal, sheep and domestic animals. It was like not clean water. After a while I got, my skin got very rough and- 9:27 AD: Oh my God. 9:28 RZ: Yeah, but the time we got into Kurdistan we spent like three months in Iran I was very sick, my skin got like axima stuff like that and my ear got very pain, infection I remember a lot of water came out of it. My mother was crying because she thought it is the end of my ear, I will be like cannot hear anything, but potentially I got better. 10:02 AD: Oh, that is good. So Where did you live in Duhok, did you have a house or did you live in an apartment? 10:12 RZ: We had a house. And my parents still live in there. 10:17 AD: So, when you came back from the camp you went back to your house? 10:23 RZ: No, right then, when we came back from Iran and the other people from Turkey Duhok and Akre and other big cities they were not safe to live people in there. United Nations they made some small cities they called them [Al-Mantiqa Al-Amina] the safe areas. Like my mother in-law told you in Zakho. And we lived in Serseng. Those two cities they were the only the safe ones that United Nations would watch them against like bombing. 11:02 AD: Yeah, because- 11:03 RZ: We were not able to go to Duhok and other big cities. And we spent like another months in this area, and we lived like there were buildings not completely built. We lived there. And it was not like just blocks- 11:29 AD: - Yeah, unfinished. 11:31 RZ: - Exactly. 11:33 AD: So, after that you went back to your house. Was your house still standing? 11:39 RZ: It was still standing. Some of our neighbors they did, not all the people run away from Kurdistan to the borders. There were our neighbors, they were old they could not do that, they stayed and they are safe. 11:58 AD: They stayed and they were still alive- 11:59 RZ: Yes, and they were alive and like they tried to safe our house from the other to steal things. Everything was just the way we left. We did not lose anything. But the only problem with my parent was right then they had saved a lot of money to build a big house, like two layer house, big one. They did not finish the house and they had all the money with them. When we ran we needed money 12:38 AD: So, they carried they money- 12:40 RZ: We carried the money and we had our relatives, so they gave the money to our relatives, and they spent on us. So, when we were back we do not have any money to build our house and to complete it. 12:59 AD: I am sorry I forgot to ask you. Did your mother work? 13:05 RZ: No. 13:05 AD: Your father, what was he doing? 13:09 RZ: He is a teacher, yeah and he is the only son as my grandpa had the kind of store he was rich right then. 13:11 AD: I see. 13:12 RZ: But after that my family was very rich I grew up in my childhood in a very rich environment, but after that we became let us say not very poor but poor. Because all our money was spent in that four months. 13:46 AD: I see. Are your parents still alive in Kurdistan? 13:49 RZ: Yeah, they are alive. 13:52 AD: Okay, so what did your father do when you came back from the UN city I would say? 14:00 RZ: He just, he continued running his father’s store, it was like grocery- 14:06 AD: - Like a little convenient store? 14:12 RZ: Exactly, and he was a teacher he worked both. 14:18 AD: - Okay, so he continued doing that. So, then you continued to live your life. You went to school and all that. 14:33 RZ: I was in the first grade when we ran away and the event was in March, so by the time we came back it was like summer. So, in school they did an exam for all the students just to let them to pass the year and go to the next grade. 14:59 AD: You are too young you wouldn’t remember but I was in the United States then and I watched that war on TV I am not kidding you, CNN broadcast of that war on TV, the first Gulf war I remember so vividly I am like wow look at this the war is going on and I cannot watch it on TV and it was devastating to watch, I remember, of course I could not see all the after, then you do not see what happens, you know what torment and torture you go through. 15:40 RZ: We have seen those videos afterwards you know. 15:43 AD: Oh yeah, definitely. So, how was life after that? Many people left in 1996 to come here. 15:54 RZ: Right, so as I said this is my cousin’s, Shivan’s father is my uncle [brother of my mother]. They came here and we were there not from the people were able because my uncle was a driver for an organization, that was why they were able to come here. 16:19 AD: I see. 16:19 RZ: And afterwards, I mean after 1991, 1992, 1993 it was a little better because people still we had money were a little rich could run their life their kids, after that the situation becoming worse and worse because the United Nations put like restriction on the Iraqi region do not trade with any other country so stuff were like very expensive. I remember there was not sugar [sugar was not available], it was very expensive. I remember my father used to love tea, all the Kurdish people love tea. Even tea was very expensive to serve your guess. It was very hard. I mean I remember we did not have variety of food it was very poor nutrition. We never drank milk after 1991. Yogurt was very hard to get it. Only we had for five six years we had only butter for breakfast. And like rise was very dream meal. It was not only rise even bread was very bad, black and very hard to eat it. It was so hard, it was very bad. My childhood after that we all complained about food, anyone you like interview with them talk with them at my age would complain about food it was very bad nutrition. Like candies you would never see a candy, only Eid you know celebrating events, Eids. Yes. And even the cloth they would buy for us cloth only one time in a year. For me like I would go for two years in that school with only one dress. Yes, it was very bad Situation. 18:48 AD: So how long did that continue? 18:51 RZ: It continued pretty much from (19)91 to (19)98 or (19)99. Yeah and then it was a little better and better. 19:04 AD: Let me ask you before we hit the second gulf war. Where you lived in Duhok was it like all Kurdish families or where there any Arabic families. 19:17 RZ: They were all Kurdish families with like Christian Kurdish and there is a lot religion. 19:22 AD: There are Christian Kurds? 19:25 RZ: Lot of Christian Kurdish- 19:27 EI: - And Jewish as well. 19:29 AD: Jewish Kurdish- 19:30 RZ: – Yeah. 19:30 AD: Angelique was asking me, I said there is no such thing. I never knew, how can you be Jewish and Kurdish? 19:35 Angelique: – When did I ask you that, Anne? 19:38 RZ: There are. Especially Christian Kurdish, there are a lot of them. I have a lot of friends with them. 19:46 AD: I know there are a bunch of Christian Arabs. But I never heard Christian Kurds, I thought Kurds are all Muslim. 19:55 RZ: No. 19:55 EI: Yezidis. 19:56 RZ: A lot of Yezidis and a lot of Christians and Jewish. 20:01 AD: But you were getting along just fine? 20:04 RZ: It was like you would not recognize, only if like me and my friend, if someone wear a scarf you would know this is a Muslim, otherwise not all the Muslims wear scarf you could not like make difference. 20:17 AD: Tell me something, do all Muslims were scarf? 20:22 RZ: No. 20:22 AD: No, okay, like in Turkey. 20:26 RZ: - Yeah, no like however you want. 20:29 AD: - So, your family, everybody wear scarf? 20:32 RZ: No, one of my sisters, no. 20:35 AD: She decided— 20:36 RZ: She decided yeah. 20:27 AD: Okay. 20:37 RZ: So, we had in Kurdish families some parents are very restricted like they force their daughter to wear scarf. 20:46 AD: But your father is a teacher so- 20:48 RZ: My father was not like that, like it was optional for us. 20:55 EI: After 1991 there is a domestic war between two parties, yeah, so how it affected your life, did you affected by that, I mean there was not anymore Saddam’s authority. 21:08 RZ: That was the effective one on me because I was like understand everything right then. My uncle was in that war. 21:19 EI: He was from Barzani’s Party? 21:21 RZ: Yes, He was working right with Barzani, with one of their sons. Sidad or something like that. It was very hard because we were always worried about him. Is he gonna survive or not. Sometimes he was leaving for two months and after that it was very hard because they were Kurdish fighting each other. I remember my parents and the older ones they were talking like how before now it was not very painful because it was Saddam their enemy with us, now is brother with brother. That was very painful and like I had, after … the village area, it was very hard for people to go there. We lived in Duhok but I had a lot of friends who their parents the older one or their grandparents lived in village it was so hard for them to visit their parents or their grandparents because it was very dangerous to leave the big cities. Only the big cities were safe, otherwise, opposite of the before, when was Saddam’s war, villages and mountains were safe to hid in there, then it was only the big cities safe to live in there. And there was PKK and yeah. 23:05 EI: There was not Saddam’s authority, anymore right? 23:09 RZ: No, 23:09 EI: There was PKK as well? 23:12 RZ: Yes, and there was a time like PKK were in the mountain, they were like if see anyone would kill them, a lot of shepherd people who take care of their animals a lot of them got killed. 23:33 EI: Yeah, in 1992-1993 like there was a domestic war and Kurdish called it Brakuzhi. 23:42 AD: Oh, Kurds killing Kurds. 23:46 EI: Brother means- 23:49 AD: Yeah, iç savaş, domestic war. 23:50 EI: So Barzani’s party and Talabani’s party and Iran, Turkey, PKK like Saddam like it was just chaos I think- 23:59 RZ: It was chaos exactly. It was very bad, like it was very painful for people it was pain inside like when you have issue in your family and say it outside it was like that of pain, you hold it in your heart. 24:19 EI: That time you were aware of that right? 24:22 RZ: Yes 24:25 EI: Like you are or, I mean the name Brakuzhi did not give after the war, it was that time that people saying this is Brakuzhi or brothers killing each other, you were aware of that right? 24:39 RZ: Exactly, yeah. 24:40 EI: I mean when people were talking to others. 24:43 AD: So, what happened who, Barzani’s party-- 24:48 EI: They negotiated. 24:50 AD: But Barzani took over right? 24:52 EI: No, I mean, Talabani now is the head if Iraq, Barzani is the head of Kurdish part. 24:59 AD: I am talking about Kurdistan. 25:01 EI: In Kurdistan their parties negotiated and like they got fifty, fifty seats, they divided; now they are united in elections I think. 25:16 RZ: Yes. 25:16 EI: So, I mean now they are fine. 25:18 RZ: Now they are a lot better than before. So, people were complaining about that they said- 25:25 AD: – You want to go to bed? 25:26 (Someone)- Are you guys almost done? 25:28 AD: In like a little bit, but why do not you go sleep, go to bed, go to bed. 25:36 (Someone)- no I do not event want to sleep, we have lunch ready, that is why. 25:38 AD: What lunch, no no, no. 25:40 (Someone): It is already ready. 25:41 AD: Oh no. 25:41 (Someone): I just wanted to know if I can put it down. Now how many? 25:43 Angelique: Does it have sucuk? 25:45 AD: [laughs] Oh Angelique! 25:47 EI: Five or ten minutes 25:49 AD: Ten minutes? 25:51 (Someone): Okay. 25:52 AD: Oh my God. 25:52 RZ: It is okay, we already have a lot of people over. 25:55 AD: – Oh wow. 25:55 RZ: Do not worry about it, we like prepare their lunch for us. We are a big family so two, three people does not affect. 26:05 AD: Yeah, I know, oh wow. 26:06 RZ: Yeah about that, um, like people were complaining about the like (aadi) normal people they said “all these years we were fighting for Kurdistan now that we have it, now our heads they are fighting for nothing.” If your relatives, your brothers or father or husband was killed in that war, it would be very painful because it was over nothing. Before it was for a big reason for Kurdistan the big Kurdistan which every Kurdish people dreamt about the big Kurdistan, and now it is for nothing, just for seat to be more president, have more money have more control; that does not mean anything for normal people, it was painful very angry people about this war. 27:04 AD: Yeah, unfortunately. So, let us hurry up then. 27:09 EI: Another turning point I think is after, like it ended in 1995 or (19)96, right. 27:17 AD: No, I think she says 1998. 27:20 RZ: Yeah because then PKK’s thing too. I think in 1998 both Barzani and Talabani they came here to the White House and they had negotiated things and set out some like agreement. Yes. 27:40 EI: Okay and second turning point is like 2004, (20)03, (20)04, the second gulf war. 27:47 AD: The second Gulf War, I watched that on TV as well, I did. 27:51 RZ: Then I just went to college and we again run away the big cities. 28:05 AD: Oh! You ran away again? 28:07 RZ: This time old people, because they said Saddam is gonna anyway be over his time and there is gonna be another Halabja, chemical bombings again. So, people were very afraid of that cities were emptied. 28:38 AD: How long did you stay? 28:40 RZ: For a month. This time. 28:43 AD: Because war itself, you know like going up north happens like in two days I mean you just watch, like American soldiers are going and it was that but finding Saddam took a little bit longer and- 28:53 RZ: And I remember we all ran to some village where we had relative in there and because all the news were in Arabic there were a lot of people and I was the only one who knew Arabic I was sitting and translating like for them, yeah. 29:09 AD: Yeah, so nobody- your father knows- 29:12 RZ: My father, it was like in villages women sit in separate 29:18 AD: That is right- 29:19 RZ: Yeah, there were young women, older women of my mother’s age and older, so I was the only one who knew Arabic, always translating. Old ladies would wake me up at six o’clock and would tell me what is going on just translate for us. 29:42 EI: On TV? 29:43 RZ: On TV yes. 29:44 EI: Have you watched the Turtles can fly? 29:47 RZ: Yes, I watched that it is a very nice- 29:50 EI: You should definitely watch it- 29:51 AD: It is, what is it? 29:52 EI: It is about the camps like after the war- 29:57 AD: O really? 29:58 RZ: It is about that time. 30:00 AD: I will watch it- 30:01 EI: I will send you it is on Netflix. 30:05 AD: I do not have Netflix. 30:06 EI: You can find it on You tube as well. 30:08 AD: Okay, you send me the link, I will watch it. So, you were away for a month then went back to the city. 30:16 RZ: We went back yea, and all the college, it was March again and all the schools and college were closed for that time then, even when we went back it did not start right away- 30:33 AD: So, life just- how long did you guys wait? 30:36 RZ: I would say for two months all the things were frozen like no work no school. 30:47 AD: And then it went back to— 30:49 RZ: And then it opened again in May we did some tests, some people past some not- 30:59 AD: But this time it was not as bad? 31:00 RZ: It was not, it was not as bad no. 31:04 AD: And then things got better after the war? 31:09 RZ: Yeah, and this time in this war 2004 people in Kurdistan were resting. Now is the time for the Kurdish in the other region, Saddami Region in the middle and south of like in Mosul and Baghdad. Kurds ran away from those places it was very hard for them because they were Kurds living in those areas it was very unsafe for them it was so hard like I have a cousin lived in there, my father’s cousin, they have I mean kids at my age, they were working in the universities some students, they could not go to school any more or go to work. They were target by terrorists. 32:01 AD: I see. 32:02 RZ: Especially they could not send their daughter because they would kidnap them and you that is very bad, would bring very bad reputation for the whole family- 32:17 AD: When did it become- like safe? Is it safe now? 32:22 RZ: Even now, I call my cousin in there I talk with their daughter as I said they are my age, older than me, younger than me. It is still not very safe. It is not nice, it is not like Kurdistan. 32:39 AD: What do you mean it is not like Kurdistan, you mean before the first war? 32:48 RZ: For example, they cannot shop in after noon, they can only shop from 11 to 4 o’clock. Like only day time. 32:57 AD: In Duhok? 32:58 RZ: No in Mosul and Baghdad. 33:03 AD: I am asking about Kurdistan and I am like why isn’t it safe? 33:13 EI: They are controversial areas like Kirkuk and Mosul they cannot decide which part should take over- 33:13 AD: Yes, no those areas but in Duhok? 32:21 RZ: Duhok is more freedom than here. Is very, very safe. 33:23 AD: How often do you go back home? 33:26 RZ: When I came here I had to wait for three years to be American citizen. So, after three years in 2011 I went back. This year in summer we gonna visit them I guess. 33:45 AD: Your parents come here? 33:46 RZ: They cannot it is very hard to get visa to come here. 33:50 AD: Really? 33:51 RZ: No, they cannot, I waited because we had our marriage and engagement, my husband had to apply for my paper as a spouse. And I waited two years to come here. 34:06 AD: How about your siblings? 34:08 RZ: They cannot, no one can come here. It is very hard. 34:12 AD: So, do you miss your family? 34:14 RZ: I miss them a lot, when I first came here like for one year completely I would not sleep one night before I cry. It was very hard 34:27 AD: You are close to your family. 34:31 RZ: Especially I was the older one and I was friend with my mother with my father I miss that a lot. 34:40 AD: I have a question which is separate from all that. So, you have your degree than you married you came here, if you did not come here, if you did not marry right away? Would you work? 34:53 RZ: I would work yeah. 34:55 AD: But here, are you considering working? 35:00 RZ: When I came here first I considered like transferring my degree and all of that, and I started taking ESL classes in BCC to improve my English, in order to one company to hire me I have to speak some English at least. 35:20 AD: – Yeah, Yeah. 35:21 RZ: - and then after one semester I got pregnant with my first one, my daughter and I had a lot of complication with pregnancy, I had to on bed rest for her. I had her prematurely she had the NICU for two months I was very busy with her. She was born in 27 weeks and I was very busy with her. So, I had to take care of her all the time because she was very little. She was two pounds and five ounces. No one can believe that, she is a miracle. 35:59 AD: – Yeah, yeah. 36:00 RZ: - and then I got pregnant with my other one. I was not planning and then I was like surprised and it was even worse in complication with pregnancy, I had to sit like rest all the time. My mother in-law and my sister in-laws they took care of my daughter for three months until I had my Ismael, and then it was two kids I could not do anything. Then I had my other one and now I am like I am no having enough sleep- 36:37 AD: You are only twenty-nine years old right? 36:39 RZ: Yes. 36:40 AD: You are still young. 36:43 RZ: Yeah, but I want to again do something- 36:46 AD: you can, you are still young. Yeah. 36:49 RZ: Sometimes I get very mad because of that. It is hard when you study especially engineering is so hard. In my country is so hard to pass in engineering, I spent my whole life, I was like only caring about school, that kind of girls- 37:09 AD: That is okay, you are still very young. You can do it and especially in this country, there is no age, seriously- 37:18 RZ: That is true, right. And now sometime I get very frustrated because I think about all that hard work I did and now I am not doing anything only staying at home and very miss my parents very much and my siblings. Sometime I get very stressed because of all that feeling and then, it gets better. 37:39 AD: I think you can do it later on. 37:42 RZ: I think it is very hard for people in my age to come here, twenty-five years old, you would accomplish a lot of thing in your life and you just ready to do, go on, continue and then when you come here you have to start all over again. 38:01 AD: Yeah. 38:01 RZ: And Zhiman’s sister she married her husband, he is from Kurdistan too and he studied engineering too, but he came here a lot before me. He studied engineering now he is struggling, he was thirty years old when he came here. It is very hard for him, he is struggling with English. 38:28 AD: Oh yeah, I can understand that. 38:31 RZ: It is very hard, you have to start learn another language and to deal with new- 38:40 AD: Yeah, he needs to do it and then other, it is not easy you know, well at least especially not your case, but the others who came in 1996, you know that starvation, you know life was not safe also at least you are safe here, you have food but it is not easy, I mean I came here you know it is not easy. I understand- 39:08 RZ: There is a quote would say “when you leave your country, you would not have another homeland.” It is like that, now this is a better place right. There is more opportunity, better system, everything, better health care system, better education system, but now you miss your family that is very- 39:34 AD: I do not know a better education, easier education. 39:38 RZ: I would say easier, yeah, and more opportunity to work. 39:43 AD: Yeah, but there are difficulties here in this country too, definitely 39:47 RZ: Yes, Definitely. 39:51 AD: And your case you came here after you got married so- 39:56 RZ: Especially it is harder for men because they have to work they cannot stay at home. It was easier for me, I can stay home, my husband work- 40:06 AD: So, how did you make, was a traditional way? Your marriage like did they ask your opinion? 40:13 RZ: Yes, like I said we knew each other we are cousins. And my husband he asked me before. I did not tell my mother. His mother came with him. He said I just wanna ask you I do not want any families effect on your decision I am asking you this and take time and think about it. If you said yes, then I am gonna tell my mother. It was yeah, it was our decision. 40:55 AD: So, it was not traditional. 40:57 RZ: No, it is not. Traditional marriage is not common anymore- 41:02 AD: No? 41:03 RZ: No. It was like I would say sixty years before now. There is no any other traditional marriage or arrangement. 41:17 AD: I see. Things have changed. 41:20 RZ: Changed a lot. You would here about a lot of bad stories about arranged marriages, still hard, I mean if parents pick someone for you and you have to live with them and you do not like them that is not good. We are very happy that those bad tradition about marriage and those stuff changed. Before like in my mother’s time, when she was young, her parents did not let her to go to school. They let their son not her. Now there is no such traditions too. 42:01 AD: You know what, I noted that. And the, remember I was saying that, I notice that is why I am thinking because your father is a teacher that has a big effect. I noticed that when we interview with others it is like girls do not go to school, boys go get their education. 42:20 RZ: Exactly, and now, for now still my mother have that pain because her father did not let her to go to school. That is very hard. But now, like luckily there is nothing like that. 42:36 AD: That is good. Erdem do you have anything because we told them ten minutes and it is- 42:44 EI: No, I am- I think, do you want to add something? 42:48 RZ: No. I said everything 42:50 EI: Last think what you think about your country, about Kurdistan? Like just your feelings. RZ: I am very happy about Kurdistan the way it is now. I mean it is very safe, it is very nice place. We just hope for our leaders, people who run the country to take care more of people, poor people. And I am very sad that there is a lot of poor people when you walk in Kurdistan you would see a lot of see elderly women sitting on the streets- 43:35 EI: Still? 43:36 RZ: Yes still. 43:37 AD: Begging money. 43:39 RZ: Begging money. They have newborn on their laps under the sun, I mean it is so heart-braking. And you would see a lot of kids; five to eight years old to ten years old like selling bags or polishing shoes it is so hard to see those kids, yeas it is very. I used to walk from my home to college; during our walking distance I would always see those people. It is always heart-breaking for me. 44:29 AD: Yeah. Okay so, I just need to do the consent form, so you want- thank you so much that was – (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rondic Zebari Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3d6e3ae1bbb475fa573681b735d69ee5.jpg 60e26f57e6fe8bc2d2b58551415fa62a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ff8c54048e3784b4ac366e4ea12b5594.mp3 4f97e2da114533d20c63291f12088908 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-07-29 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rosalyn Baxandall, 1939-2015 Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Rosalyn Baxandall (1939 - 2015) was a feminist historian, activist, author and educator. She was one of the leading figures of the feminist movement in New York during the late 1960s. Baxandall received her Bachelor's degree in French at University of Wisconsin and her Master of Social Work at Columbia University.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:6531,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Rosalyn Baxandall (1939 - 2015) was a feminist historian, activist, author and educator. She was one of the leading figures of the feminist movement in New York during the late 1960s. Baxandall received her Bachelor's degree in French at the University of Wisconsin and her Master of Social Work at Columbia University.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Quakers; Sexism; Activism; Women's Liberation; Sex, Drugs; Rock n' Roll; Senator Muskie; Healing; Conservatives; Freedom; Counterculture; Woodstock; Summer of Love; March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom; Black Power; Weathermen; Students for a Democratic Society.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14281427}}">Quakers; Sexism; Activism; Women's Liberation; Sex, Drugs; Rock n' Roll; Senator Muskie; Healing; Conservatives; Freedom; Counterculture; Woodstock; Summer of Love; March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom; Black Power; Weathermen; Students for a Democratic Society.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 111:24 Subject LCSH Feminists; Historians; Authors; Political activists--United States; Baxandall, Rosalyn, 1939-2015--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Rosalind Baxandall Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Shah Islam Date of interview: 29 July 2010 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:04 SM: Are you ready? 0:05 RB: Yes. 0:06 SM: [inaudible] I will continue to check this too. Who were your role models when you were growing up, who were the teachers or parents or leaders that helped you become the person that you are today? What inspired you even before you went to college? 0:23 RB: Okay, well, in some ways, my grandmother who had talked to me about marching and suffragette parades, my mother's mother. And also, she inspired me because her husband died when she was very young, leaving her with three young children, and she first took in sewing. And then she got a GED. And then she became a lawyer. And the fact that she was female, and a lawyer, and did not have a husband supporting her was inspirational to me. And she also used to go on very exotic trips. I mean, they seemed exotic to me, they would not. The world is smaller now. Like to Argentina. She would go on these trips alone. And so, she seemed extremely adventurous… to me. And then… other role mo— I mean, most of the role models were in my family. My father was a role model since he had been a communist and labor organizer and then changed his life and became a doctor. 2:15 SM: So, you had the inspirations— [crosstalk 2:17] SM: —really, RB: Within my family. 2:18 SM: Right. 2:19 RB: I would say they were really within my family. Rather than people outside. Not my teachers, particularly. When I got to college, my teachers were inspirations. 2:32 SM: Now, where did you go to school and the teachers— 2:36 RB: When I went to scho— The University of Wisconsin. 2:37 SM: Great school. 2:41 RB: I had many inspirational teachers, now let me— In American history, I have this man who taught us through using documents, and I cannot even believe that I cannot think of his name now. Anyway— William Appleman Williams. He was a real inspiration. My French teacher who I had a job working for. [inaudible] She was inspirational. I used to talk to her a lot. She had had an affair with Camus. And so it was really— [crosstalk 3:17] RB: —interesting that SM: [inaudible] Really, affair? RB: Yeah. Oh yeah. SM: Ha-ha, oh my God! 3:19 RB: I mean yeah. She had been a lover of Camus. And I mean, it is written about. 3:24 SM: Wow. 3:25 RB: So, she knew Camus and Sartre. 3:28 SM: Wow. 3:29 RB: And I majored in French, and— Simone de Beauvoir was a real… was somebody that I looked up to. 3:40 SM: She wrote The Second Sex— 3:41 RB: —Second Sex. 3:42 SM: Yeah. 3:43 RB: And I had first seen The Second Sex in my parents’ house, because I thought it was a sex book. There was a man and a woman on the cover. 3:53 SM: Right. 3:55 RB: Not dressed, so— and it was called The Second Sex. So I thought it was a sex book, and I was very curious about it. And read it. And I read it, like a guide to life. And I have my original book at home and every other word is underlined. 4:14 SM: Hard to find first editions of that book. 4:16 RB: Yeah, and I do not know if it was the first edition— 4:18 SM: They are reprinting it now. Just came out reprinted. 4:19 RB: Oh I know, a new… a new translation. 4:22 SM: Oh wow. 4:23 RB: So that was very inspirational to me. 4:25 SM: Mhm. What did… what inspired you to become a feminist? Were you part of the new left antiwar movement— [crosstalk 4:31] RB: Yes. I was. SM: —when you were younger, or− 4:33 RB: Yeah, I was part of the new left. I mean, I was not a major part. I worked on a magazine called Yet Report. I translated things from the French. I went on active— the antiwar movements. I was also, I worked for mobilization for youth, and I was active in Welfare Rights. Even in high school. I went to Philadelphia, with the Quakers and worked in slums on weekends helping people clean. And then I remember going to a night court, which was really an incredible experience. This was in Philadelphia. 5:21 SM: Mhm. 5:22 RB: Then I went, in hi— this was still in high school, up to Connecticut, where they had nuclear submarines. And we did civil resistance in front of these submarines. 5:42 SM: I think that is where the Berrigans went one time I think— 5:44 RB: Yeah, well it was a, it was a− SM: Yeah. RB: …place to go. SM: Yeah. 5:47 RB: And so I did that in high school, too. So I was already… active. But if— none of my friends did this in high school, I was very different than anyone else. I mean, no one I knew in high school was political. 6:03 SM: Where did you go— what state, did you go to school in New York? Or− 6:06 RB: In New York. [crosstalk 6:07] RB: Yeah. SM: Right. 6:08 RB: In New York. Yeah. I mean, people that I knew were political. I mean, it was the late (19)50s. They were not political. 6:15 SM: One other thing, I have interviewed Susan Brown Miller, and I have interviewed quite a few people. And what— The difference between mainstream feminism and radical feminism, correct me if I am wrong, the radical feminists were more of the new left feminine— 6:31 RB: The New Left feminists. 6:32 SM: But— RB: I was definitely a New Left— 6:34 SM: Betty Friedan is the mainstream that was— RB: —stream. Yes 6:37 SM: Ms. Magazine may be more of the— RB: —mainstream— SM: —mainstream. [inaudible] Friedan— 6:42 RB: Right. We wanted to change the whole of society, not integrate into it. We did not want better jobs in the society, we really wanted to change the society. So, we were part of the New Left. 6:57 SM: Right. 6:58 RB: And it was just that we found out in the New Left, that we needed a women's movement. It was almost by accident. 7:08 SM: Did you f— Did you feel like a lot of the women that I have interviewed, that the sexism that was so prevalent within the antiwar movement, the civil rights movement, and most recently, I have heard even in the gay and lesbian movement, and the Native American movement, and because I have interviewed people that it was ramped, and a lot of the women in those movements said, to get away from those, and join the women's movement. [crosstalk 7:31] RB: Right. SM: Do you agree with that? 7:32 RB: And that… that was in order to have you know, I— I mean, I can remember that my ex-husband, who was active in the new left, his friends, sometimes when I talk, they would answer him. [crosstalk 7:50] SM: Wow— RB: As if he had said what I had said. 7:52 SM: They will not even recognize you— 7:53 RB: It was that you were almost invisible, in meetings and things. 8:00 SM: Was that something that you were involved in the— was it Mobe? Do— were you involved in Mobe? 8:04 RB: I was involved in Mobe. 8:05 SM: Did you see these new left activists; they just treat women and like, go… go Xerox! And— [crosstalk 8:12] RB: Right— SM: and that kind of stuff? RB: Right. 8:14 RB: And also, sweep the floor, you know, not only go Xerox. And then… since we were the ones going toward the door and talking to people a lot, they would have to get information from us, and then they would give the talks. 8:30 SM: Oh my God. 8:31 RB: So, I mean, we did a lot of the labor and so on. We got very little from it. 8:39 SM: What is amazing in the studies that I have done of some of the activism, at least at the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in (19)64, Bettina Aptheker was able to stand up on that car and speak. 8:49 RB: She was able, but she says that she was one of the guys. 8:53 SM: Okay. I know that to offs— 8:56 RB: At that time, she felt like one of the guys, and she did not even think of herself as a woman. 9:01 SM: Then there is Mario Savio’s girlfriend at the time who he ended up marrying, she was also—Goldberg or− 9:06 RB: Goldberg, yeah. 9:08 SM: Yeah, there were 2 Goldbergs, [inaudible] they were… they spoke too— 9:12 RB: Right. And in the film about Berkeley women talk about being— 9:16 SM: Right. 9:17 RB: —invisible. 9:18 SM: It is amazing. 9:20 RB: And even in Wisconsin that was true. Men always wrote the things, it was just assumed. 9:27 SM: I am going to get back to books here obviously you are a scholar and a writer yourself and you have already mentioned The Second Sex but what were the— the books that really turned you on as a young person that inspired you? Wow, again, you— you already read The Second Sex and— but were there other books, like the— was The Feminine Mystique real important to you? Was— 9:49 RB: No, The Feminine Mystique, when I read The Feminine Mystique, I really thought— I know that it influenced some people, but I mean I was interested in it, but it did not influence me because it was about… over educated women who were not… were not living up to their potential, when there were so many women that did not even have opportunities to live up to their potentials. Especially at the time that I read it. I mean, the books that influenced me more was Fanshen, about the Chinese Revolution, that influenced me enormously. 10:32 SM: What year did that come out? 10:34 RB: What? Fanshen… must have come out… they have an anniversary of it. I think it came out in around… It came out in the late (19)60s. And in the book, the women get together and do consciousness raising, like we did. And they speak bitterness… about their experiences, both with men, and with the oppressive Chinese government to recall their pain. And that had a big influence to me about how people could change the whole of society and make a revolution. 11:11 SM: Do you like the term boomers? I say, I have been asking this now for the last 30 people because— 11:17 RB: I do not like the term, I do not like the term baby boomers, although that gets- 11:20 SM: Because you see what happens. You got the… you have got the greatest generation that Brokaw talks about which is the World War II generation then you have this group for five years called the Silent Generation, which is… they were not very silent. They were the people that were the leaders that were [inaudible] in (19)40 and (19)46— 11:35 RB: Right. They were in people like Ginsberg— [crosstalk 11:38] RB: —and people SM: Yeah! 11:40 SM: Tom Hayden and— RB: Yeah!— SM: —even Ronnie Davis— RB: Yeah! 11:42 SM: Richie Havens had said I am born in ’41, they said, but I am a boomer. I am not, you know, and the— Todd Gitlin told me he says, you know, kid, I will not even talk to you if you keep saying boomer I will not even— [crosstalk 11:52] RB: Right. It is not− SM: —talk to you. RB: I do not [inaudible]— SM: You know, it was… it was about a period. 11:57 RB: It is about a period and ‘boomer’, first of all, a boomer now… it just has to do with consumerism, not with activism— 12:05 SM: You see— it is also that, from what I am learning more and more is that the first 10 years of boomers, those born between (19)46 and (19)56, yes, they were all influenced. 12:18 RB: Right. SM: But when you start getting into the (19)57— RB: No− SM: —to (19)64— RB: No− 12:21 SM: They were ten years old! How can they— [crosstalk 12:22] RB: Right− SM:—you know— 12:23 RB: −they were not inf—, you know SM: Yeah, so− RB: Maybe they were influenced by other things. SM: When they get— RB: Like the media and things. 12:29 SM: When you look at your… the generation that you are linked to any… anybody born I think (19)38 on, so to speak, would you… would you say it is more like the Vie— is there a term you like to use the Vietnam generation, the Woodstock generation of the.. the protest generation that, uh, you know— 12:46 RB: The (19)60s generation or something? Or the movement? Yeah, no way. 12:50 SM: Yeah, ‘because that is kind of more of the— [crosstalk 12:51] RB: Right− SM: —definitive generation— RB: Movement generation− 12:53 RB: But not boomers. I do not like boomers, ‘because it just seems like consumerism. 12:58 SM: One of the questions… I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly, and she said, and David Horowitz said the same thing— 13:04 RB: Uh huh. SM: [inaudible] ramparts. 13:06 RB: Yeah, I-I… went out with him. So, I know— 13:09 SM: Oh you know him well? 13:10 RB: Yeah. I mean, in another era. 13:11 SM: Yeah. Well, Dav— well David's a brilliant guy. [crosstalk 13:13] RB: Right, he is— SM: You know, and I— 13:15 RB: And he wrote… very important books— 13:17 SM: Oh. RB: —early on 13:18 SM: I have them. I have all these— 13:19 RB: Yes! 13:20 SM: —books. And I have been wanting to— he wrote at Berkeley and I got— 13:23 RB: Uh huh. SM: —a first edition of it. But he will not even talk about those now. Now that is like that is— 13:26 RB: Right. Yeah. 13:29 SM: But one thing you have to admit about that— 13:30 RB: I met his parents; I was at his parents’ house. 13:33 SM: —so the passion he had back then for the left is the same passion he has for the right. So he is pretty consistent in his passion. But what I am getting at here is- 13:41 RB: He has better rewards with the right. 13:43 SM: Yeah. For money— 13:44 RB: For money, right! 13:47 SM: That the people who were the troublemakers of the (19)60s are now running today's universities, and they are running the departments and the studies department— 13:55 RB: Right, that is true. SM: —the women's studies, Black Studies, Asian American Studies— [crosstalk 13:58] RB: Yeah, American studies. SM: —Native American Studies— RB: Right. Yeah. True. SM: —gay and lesbian studies and environmental studies. 14:03 RB: Mhm. SM: Do you agree with that? 14:04 RB: I think that is one arena we have been very active in. 14:09 SM: So, you do not take that as a negative you take— 14:11 RB: No! SM: —you take that as a— 14:12 SM: That… that leads me into how had professors changed in their teaching styles since the (19)60s? What did the (19)60s and the (19)70s do to the whole new wave of teaching? 14:24 RB: Well, I mean, the content of the teaching changed. I mean, we… taught much more about social movements, rather— we taught both what was happening at the bottom as well as what was happening at the top. We did not just teach elite history. We taught peoples history as well. And… the way we taught is that we cared about our student’s experience. 15:03 SM: When do you think that began… did that begin on actually some of the professors that were teaching the boomers? 15:09 RB: Um, some of our professors I mean, like William Appleman Williams taught the original documents and us to analyze the documents. He did not just have secondhand sources, and that was very important—primary sources, go to the primary sources. 15:29 SM: Right. RB: And so, he had a big influence. In the women's movement— for a while when I was teaching Women's Studies. We… we taught a great d— we put people in circles, and talked about our own experiences as well, and that we were the experts on our own experience. It was not other people that will be experts. 16:05 SM: Right. RB: And that has held me in good stead because I wrote a book with another woman about the suburbs. And the reason we wrote the book is because the books that our students were reading lived in the suburbs said this had nothing to do with their lives in the suburbs now. 16:26 SM: Yeah, I think the… I guess… Again, I have interviewed conservatives and liberals, I am making sure you get all points of view here, and Michelle Easton from the Clare Boothe Institute. I do not know if you have heard− 16:38 RB: Uh huh, that is great. 16:39 SM: And the concern they expressed, and this is not me, I might… I am not… I just get interviewing. That is all I am. No, but… is that… that many of the new laughter of the activism that the new left… the activists in the (19)60s, wanted their point of view heard, because they felt it was not being heard, and they had to fight for it to be heard. And they were kind of shutting down the other points of view, whether it be Richard Nixon speaking on the podium, or you know, whatever. Yeah, and then they come to power within the universities, and they are doing the same thing that they accused others of doing back then of not allowing a cons— a smart conservative point of view. Because Phyllis Schlafly said to me, I bet you my… I bet you have not included any of the women's studies programs, or I bet you some of the conservative speakers— Michelle Easton says to me, I bet you they do not include Ann Coulter, because they do not consider it an intellect or Michelle Malkin, or this new congresswoman— 17:34 RB: I think, as a matter of fact, we include them far more than they include us. Because we do believe in democracy, and a balance. And I am always so pleased when the students are conservative, and that we have different points of view in the classroom. And I have debates in my classroom, and make students take different points of view. Because I think you learn a lot that way. 18:06 SM: See, then that… see that… I know that for a fact, that I have been in university for 30 years, but I hear the other side. And I have been in a university where it was of— only two… two or three tenured faculty members are free to say they are conservative, because the rest of them were all liberal for fear their jobs. But it is… that-that has come up, that feeling within the university. And certainly, when we had Ann Coulter come to campus there has been some sort of reaction to her point of view as not being smart enough to [inaudible]− 18:37 RB: And I tell the students look, I want to tell you, this is my… this is where I am coming from, this is my point of view. But I want you to have, you know, I want us to argue. 18:48 SM: So, your teaching point of view is also what Hillary Clinton said in… in her biography that she learned that she was a Goldwater girl. And she learned about the other side because she did… she was going to be Goldwater and her friend was going to be for Johnson. But their teacher in high school said you have to take the other point of view. So, you learn about everything you can about Lyndon Johnson, and you debate for him, and she will debate for Goldwater. 19:15 RB: I make black students… debate from the slavery point of view. First, they are a little… uptight. I mean, because it is really important to have other points of view. And I constantly have debates in my class. 19:33 SM: Well, that is important, [inaudible]. 19:35 RB: You know, and take sides. They have to know the other side. And they learn a lot by listening to it, and thinking of how to counteract that argument. It is really good. 19:44 SM: It can change people too, because— 19:47 RB: Right! 19:47 SM: —Hillary Clinton became a— 19:49 RB: Yes, right. 19:50 SM: —democrat when she was a diehard Republican. 19:52 RB: Right. 19:52 SM: She was a Goldwater girl! 19:51 RB: Right. 19:51 SM: So… anyway, I am trying to read my writing here. I am not going to— 19:57 RB: Is the light bad? 19:58 SM: Oh no, I just… I had to… I should use my glasses here because, if you bear with me, I am going to… put my glasses— 20:03 RB: Oh, I understand, I would need my glasses to read. 20:07 SM: But I cannot [inaudible]… I have a problem to my fam— nob— nobody-nobody in my family can read my writings. So let us do it. Bear with me here, to boomers correct me if I am wrong, grew up with a very naïve… but they were very naïve, and they learned what the meaning of fear stood for. The idea of ‘be quiet’, ‘obey orders’, ‘do not question authority’. Fear, and being quiet, and being naive was the norm in the (19)50s, to many of the boomers that were born after the war. The (19)60s and (19)70s was just the opposite for all three. There were lots of injustices, many people spoke up to challenge what I believe was wrong. And they did not… they were told not to challenge authority, but students challenged everything. And this basically is because of some of the things that took place in their lives. The McCarthy hearings in the 1950s, the concept of fear, the Cold War, the concept of fear, the worry about the bomb, the concept of fear, speaking up and you could lose your job, that was very common in the (19)50s. It was written in white collar. So, you are right, Mills talked about it. Civil— and of course, the Civil Rights and Women's Rights and all the rights in that movement, it kind of developed, which challenged that kind of mentality in the (19)60s, because— they would be questioning what was wrong with President Johnson, Nixon, and Kennedy in terms of their leadership and speaking up, or they might not have spoken up so much for Eisenhower. Your thoughts about these, the dichotomy between these two extreme periods of when that front wave New Left, people born in the (19)40s, though, say, the mid (19)50s—these qualities of fear, being quiet, and also being naive? 21:53 RB: Well to deal with the fear, I grew up… when I grew up we had FBI agents outside our house, and were told not to talk to them. So— and my father’s friends went to jail. But my father did tell me that I should be proud of those people in jail. So, I did not, I mean… I knew that there were consequences for speaking up. And I grew up with the fear. And as a matter of fact, I think people, the little older generation, like myself, who saw McCarthyism, and saw conservatism, and then saw change, were less naive. Because they saw that it could change back also. And when it did change back, they had the earlier experience, as well, and they were not as naïve, because we had seen both periods. And people who had only grown up in the (19)60s, and seeing this quick change, just expected that to be forever. 23:19 SM: Like the ones today they are— 23:21 RB: Right. And then when things got really conservative, again, they were not able to deal with it. But we had seen that that is what happens in history. And as a historian, you see, I mean, that there are shifts, things change back. And people have to change, and sure we were… we were naive. And it was good that we were naïve in some ways, because we tried things that people did not think we could do. And if we had not been naive, we would not have done it. We would have been too cautious. 24:03 SM: Right. 24:04 RB: And so you have to be a little gutsy and blind to try these things. 24:10 SM: You know it is amazing, when you reflect years later, and this is just my observation, I have heard from other people, that they were naive because parents, you know, the parents were… they were not upset with their parents, but it was the way things were in the (19)50s you know, that kind of thing. But then if you reflect on it, it is not really criticism of your parents, it is a criticism of television, what you saw, the things that you use— wait a minute, there were no black people on TV in the (19)50s, Amos and Andy was the only thing on in the early (19)50s and they made fun of— slapstick. And then Nat King Cole goes on for six weeks and that was it until the early (19)60s when I Spy and Flip Wilson and Diane Carrol on The Nurse Show came on TV so— you see— wait there were no blacks! There were no other people on there. And-and everything seen from Walt Disney was all about the cowboys and Indians! [inaudible] cowboys and Indians! Indians are always the bad people. The white hat, so you start seeing that maybe we were not as naive as we thought, you know, as we age, you can start reflecting on things that are wrong, even without somebody telling you. 25:18 RB: Right. And also, it helped in a way that we believed in democracy, because we then tried to get a better. If we had been totally cynical— my students nowadays are so cynical, they think nothing can change, everything is corrupt! We believe things could change. 25:36 SM: Yeah, yes. 25:37 RB: I mean, we believed we could make a difference. We bought that, which was great. If we had not been naïve— 25:44 SM: Do you think, though, that there is even some fear? I find that the people that run today's universities are boomers, or, you know, first gen— generation Xers who really did not get along with boomers. 25:57 RB: Right. 25:58 SM: Generation X’s, I do not think… like them. We had poor programs on it, not across the board. 26:02 RB: Yeah. 26:03 SM: So, you get the people that are into these universities are the boomers that experience what you and I experienced, and also the generation Xers who had a problem with boomers to begin with. And they see things, but they are afraid of a return to what was, particularly with the term activism. I sense that this is me. And I spoke up at the university about this, that volunteerism is fine, because 95 percent of students are volunteering, and they at the end, they are doing great jobs, and it has never been higher. However, the term activism is a term I sense they fear. They do not like it. Am I wrong in perceiving that— [crosstalk 26:39] RB: No, I think they do not like it, no. SM: —because it brings back the memories of what was, and it could come again. 26:44 RB: Right. They do not like it. And also, you know, they have seen… like I had my students read Thoreau and they were very surprised that I had them read it. And I said, why? And their idea of activism, and these were feminist students, were right to lifers, and people on the right. They did not have any idea of activism of the left. That is not what they have seen. I mean, they have seen people bombing. I mean, they have seen the Oklahoma bomber, they have seen the World Trade Center bomber. They think of that, as activism. 27:29 SM: Oh, wow. 27:30 RB: So, their activism is terrorism and the right. And that is what they equate with activism. People who are against the law. 27:38 SM: How would they think about the tea party group? 27:41 RB: Well— I know! That— they— I have not— 27:45 SM: Had a chance— RB: Yeah, to talk to them about that [laughter] 27:49 SM: That… that is amazing. Because what happened is, when I have read books, I think some people think of the negatives, they think activism is off to the left. Well, activism does not have any political— 28:02 RB: At all! SM: —control. There is left, right and anything in between! 28:06 RB: Exactly! And so therefore, my students, I have students who went for abortions, and they were trying to be stopped by life— right to lifers. They think of that, as people breaking the law, people setting clinics on fire, they think about as activism. 28:20 SM: Let me turn this one, and I can… this is a 30 minute. This is a 45. Dealing with two of these here. 28:29 RB: Okay. 28:30 SM: Bear with me. I have stopped it— 28:33 SM: [inaudible] when I finished the interviews. What are the major accomplishments of the second wave? In terms of what have been the major accomplishments in the women's movement? And secondly, what are the major failures? 28:46 RB: The major accomplishments, I really think? I mean, obviously, there were changes in laws and, you know, now girls do athletics. We have an equal rights amendment. But I think more important the way people dress, the way people… young girls dream, think, their expectations. It is so all pervasive. The changes that people do not even know that it is there. It is like the air that we breathe. Girls grow up now, ex— with great expectations. They do not think of themselves as second class citizens. They think that they can do what men can do, and maybe better, they see they are the best in their class. They are called on by their teachers. They see role models all over. And I think it is so pervasive that we cannot even see it. And I mean, obviously, you know, there is a change now it is going back, people can get abortions, there is… people are less prudish. I mean, the music changed…the way people… the way people, take for granted that girls wear pants! We had a fight for girls wearing pants… to school. I mean, all of these basic kinds of things, the fact that girls do not wear girdles, make up. Just such basic changes and freedoms. Girls do not have to wait at home when a boy asks them out, they can ask them too. It is this… basic everyday life changes. Aside from the laws and their… now girls are in all sorts of jobs that they would not have been− 31:05 SM: How about— RB: −play differently. 31:08 SM: How about— was the failure of the— 31:11 RB: And this is a big failure in that we did not, at least the radical part of the women's movement did not create lasting organizations. And so, they are not around now. Now is around. But we had such loose anarchistic structures that we did not last in that way. 31:36 SM: Yeah, one of the things that has come in some of the interviews, and it is in my belief, because I worked in the university for 33 years. And that is, that what you saw in the early— in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, where if there was an anti-war movie, you said that you saw all the movements, with their placards and signs. It seems like the movements today are in their own world, the women's movements in their world, the gay rights movements in their world, the environmental movements over here, the Native American movement is West— 32:07 RB: Although there would probably be some crossover. Some, but not— 32:08 SM: Yeah, it seems like they do not work together, that there is no collaboration. It is all— as some people said, it is a bunch of special interests and— 32:15 RB: Right. And also, people make their living that way. It is not like it was before. 32:21 SM: Right. 32:21 RB: I mean, they have these organizations. But there, they each have an interest in surviving. And not looking after the whole. 32:34 SM: One, One person, well-known female leader. And she is a liberal, said that, when I asked her about the National Organization for Women, what she thought about it, if she loves the organization and thought it was very important. But she said, if you walk into the national headquarters now… now they have literature, for she says, abortions, AIDS, and the pill. And she said, that is what they stand for now- There is no— 33:02 RB: No jobs? 33:03 SM: No, no. She said, if you walk into their office— 33:06 RB: Really? 33:06 SM: —That is all the brochures you see in these three areas. And they— you do not see anything about the laws they are working on, the-the— all the other things. And so, I am wondering your thoughts on that? It is just your thoughts. 33:21 RB: Well, I think that people characterize the women's movement that way and forget that they did other things. For example, one of the things that I was most active in was daycare centers. And you do not hear a lot about the women's movement creating daycare centers and insisting on daycare, because people have a stereotype of the women's movement as not caring about children. 33:47 SM: Right. 33:48 RB: And that stereotype, women were supposed to care about themselves and no other things. And that was not what I saw in the women's movement at all. You know, and I do not see a women's movement around today. And there is a little of a women's movement around that. I know that works on the morning after pill. So, you are right on that, but not much else. 34:17 SM: The daycare centers very important. I think that is, that is a historic accomplishment from the women's movement. But if you are talking about weaknesses, I have a niece that just had a baby and I still think that corporations and businesses are still insensitive to the needs of women raising children who are still working. She said in most places, there is no privacy. There is no— you know, if they are, if they have to breastfeed their child, there is no priv— go into the lady’s room, no! Where is there a— 34:46 RB: For executives there are but there is not for the common worker. See I read this article. 34:50 SM: Yeah. 34:50 RB: Executives could breastfeed, and they make places for them. But for the common article— women, there was nothing. 34:57 SM: That should be a major cause— 34:59 RB: Well of course it should be— 35:03 SM: —and also there is the… the thing about taking care of a child too, which is they get, I think, two months or three months off of, you know? And then something about the husband should also be— 35:13 RB: Fraternity leave— 35:15 SM: Yeah. 35:15 RB: —so the husbands get a head start. 35:15 SM: Yes. So, the— you know, I am a firm believer of six months. 35:20 RB: Right. Oh yes! SM: Have either— 35:21 RB: But other countries have two years. Sweden, Denmark, France. We are the most backward country in all of the— 35:28 SM: And why is that? Why— 35:30 RB: Because we have a very bad welfare st— state. I mean, we— it is all left up to the individual. I mean, we have the most backward healthcare system of all the so-called advanced countries too. It is part of our welfare system. 35:46 SM: You know, the idea— 35:48 RB: We are very backwards and unfortunately, I think in the movement, we were so against the government that we became against systems, and did not, we were so anti-government that we did not think of how the government can help us, as well. 35:05 SM: Right. 35:05 RB: It was a big failure in the movement. It is both things. I mean, you could be against the government. But also, we have to look at what the state can do for us. 36:18 SM: Right. 36:19 RB: Especially now. And then people started buying into all that Reaganism and the minimum state, you know, and that just really irks people who are not wealthy. I mean, it is just welfare for the rich. 36:33 SM: We know what Reagan did— the AIDS crisis. 36:37 RB: Right! 36:37 SM: And in any of the interviews I have had of some gay and lesbian, especially gay men, who were major figures. They start crying when they talk about what he did not do in the (19)80s. 36:49 RB: Oh yeah. Provincetown is the gay capital of the world, right? 36:53 SM: It is? 36:54 RB: About six miles from here. 36:56 SM: Oh, I did not know that. 36:58 RB: They call it Viagra Falls. [laughter] 37:00 RB: And, it is, I mean, it is 80 percent gay. 37:02 SM: Oh my God. 37:03 RB: Yeah. It was one of the beginning of people helping each other because there was not government help. 37:10 SM: Amazing. Why did the ERA fail? Well, my first boss at High University was really working hard for it, at… in Ohio, and I can remember her having the radio on when the vote was taking place, and it did not pass in Ohio. And she worked two years on it and when she went home, she was devastated. Your thoughts on why the ERA did not pass? 37:32 RB: I really think… it was a case where the right was in power and had the media and scared working women, who thought oh, wow! I do not want to enlist in the war. And it was all scare tactics. And the people on the left and people I knew, sort of ignored it. 38:01 SM: Yeah, Nixon was, I think, in power at the time. 38:05 RB: Yeah, and they just scared women who felt they would not be protected. 38:13 SM: Yeah. 38:13 RB: And, and then I do not think that the radical part of the movement like myself, we did not work on it at all. 38:23 SM: Some people think that Phyliss Schlafly single handedly defeated it. 38:27 RB: She did very well. I do not know about single handedly, but the mood of the country had changed. 38:33 SM: I got a question here that I will read, and that is the mothers of the baby boomers, I think my mom here, raised most of the 74 million kids from (19)46 to (19)64. Or as we have talked about those from (19)40 to (19)65. How can some of the feminists say that most women of the era were unfulfilled? How do we know this? And is not it important to know that someone was home when you arrived home from school? That is what happens when you— I have talked with even liberal, left-wing baby boomers, and they love the fact their mom was home in the (19)50s when they got home from school. And a lot of kids today are missing that because they do not see a father or mother home they just come home after work. And Phyliss Schlafly talked about she-she-she said you know all this business about being unfulfilled as a female you know, I could have gone on, and I could have been long gone on and become a senator or even a bigger name politician, but my husband did not want me to and so I listened to my husband, and I did not. 39:38 RB: She was not home. She was always out doing speeches. 39:42 SM: I know but, just— just that concept. Well, if-if you I think Sally Roche for good— for full name. 39:51 RB: Yeah, Wagner. 39:51 SM: Yeah, she-she-she made medicine that if you really talked to a lot of the mothers of the (19)50s. They will probably say that they were not fulfilled, if you had a chance to talk to them, they never spoke about it. Just your thoughts on that? 40:04 RB: I do know. I mean, my mother had resentment. She definitely had resentment in that she would have— there are some people that would like to stay home. My mother was one, who was much better at career than she was at raising children. My father was the more gentle person, and would be better home. But she was discontent. And she communicated her discontent to us, all girls. I mean, and she did put her husband first. But it was almost absurd the way she put him first, I mean, and we put in first we take turns of the table sitting next to my father. He was— the best foods would always go to my father. The best of everything. And we always knew, we said, thank God, we did not have a brother, he would have been so favored. We were so happy it was all girls, because a boy would have been favored. And my mother did communicate her discontent. 41:31 SM: When you— you cannot have— 41:33 RB: My father treated her well, but she was discontent from society’s expectation. 41:38 SM: Well, Sara Evans wrote a great book, you know— 41:42 RB: Yes, I think— 41:43 SM: —And I think it is one of the best books ever written and— 41:44 RB: It is very good. 41:45 SM: —if everybody could read the first chapter in the introduction, you would get a wide awakening because of women in professional careers, as opposed to women who are housewives, and she breaks it down. And of course, World War II, and then coming back and the whole thing there. So, and I, my, my mom was a very successful secretary, she was unbelievable, but she just stopped everything, and was raising kids. And everybody on the street that I grew up in, the mothers were home, and the fathers are off work and we never saw our dads! it was always there— 42:16 RB: Uh huh, right! 42:17 SM: So then, then all of a sudden, these changes happen in the (19)60s, mid (19)60s, basically. 42:24 RB: Yeah. 42:24 SM: The second wave move— women's movement has been all inclusive with respect to women in— no, has the second wave women's movement been all-inclusive with respect to women of color, and women with different sexual orientation? And I preface this by saying, do black women identify more with being black first and/or being a woman second? 42:49 RB: It depends on the women, some identify, like Shirley Chisholm, who ran for president, she identified as a woman and a black and could not break it down. But some identify more with women, some identified much more… with race. And we all came from the civil rights movement, so it is not that we were not concerned, we had concern. But we also came from a civil rights movement, that at that point, that the women's movement started, was into black power. 43:26 SM: Right. 43:26 RB: And did not want women as… did not want white women as part of it. They thought we should do our own thing. So, our own thing was women. 43:37 SM: Right. 43:37 RB: And we made some overtures. But it was not enough. And we also made the mistake often, of talking for all women. When we were not all, you know, we were a certain kind of woman. Although, there were like, very, varied women in the group. I gave you the name of Carol Hanisch, she is from a poor rural family. 44:04 SM: I may be interviewing her she— she just responded back in— 44:07 RB: In Iowa. I mean, I, they were varied. People just talked about certain women. But there were lots of women from different backgrounds. 44:15 SM: Let me change this tape. 44:21 RB: [inaudible] 44:21 SM: Oh, you already talked to her? 44:23 RB: I emailed her, she said, you think I should do this? I said, I do think you should do it— 44:27 SM: Oh I really— I need to make sure that women's point of view is in this project. 44:32 RB: Right, and also, you know, she was very active. She really, her idea was Miss America contest when she did all sorts of things. And she was an AP, and she was also in the South during the civil rights movement as a UPI reporter. 44:46 SM: Oh wow. 44:46 RB: But, she is from a poor family in Iowa. But people just think that it was all upper middle-class women. It was not. But that has— what has been written about. 44:58 SM: You know Kaycee Hayden came from— I am trying to get ahold of, you know, Casey— 45:04 RB: Yeah, I know her. 45:06 SM: Well, Casey says she is going to do it but then she is hesitating because she— and she has not done interviews in years. 45:09 RB: Oh I know. That would be great— 45:11 SM: And but she is… she has agreed to do it. But then she hesitates, as I get close to it so [inaudible]— 45:18 RB: That would be good if she did. 45:19 SM: We will kind of see what happens here. I also bring up here, lesbian females, you know whether they identify more as lesbians or as women first? I do not know— 45:31 RB: I do not know. I mean, it depends. It really depends on… there is a big variety. And the thing is that I do think that lesbian women identify more with women than they do with gay men. Because there is a real division in that movement. 45:47 SM: Oh, yeah. And I have been told about the sexism in that movement— 45:49 RB: Oh, yes. It is incredible. 45:51 SM: As a matter of fact, there was a period when they will not even talk to the men. 45:54 RB: Right. 45:54 SM: Which is unreal. And actually, there is some things today going on that I— 45:57 RB: Right, still, they, I mean, so that there is real divisions, and there are some that feel closer. I mean, [inaudible]. She is a woman that— who writes a lot, and she was much closer to the women's movement. 46:10 SM: See, I had three other Latino women, Native American women, certainly Asian American women, and we know ever, certainly, we know about the first two here, but Asian American women, you do not hear anything about them in the (19)60s. 46:24 RB: And there were Asian American women, in-in our book, we write a little about them, they had a little newspaper in-in California, there were some Asian Americans. 46:32 SM: Well, I am trying to interview Gary Okihiro who— 46:34 RB: That would be good, yes. 46:36 SM: We brought to our campus and I forget the other similar person. And I am interviewing Kim Phuc. But because Kim, I know Kim from the Vietnam Memorial, but I— I think it is important— the boat people, we have to talk about the boat people, but the boat people are really (19)75, and they became, they were boomers from another country, and then they grew up and they have been so successful— 47:01 RB: It is unreal, yeah. 47:03 SM: I actually am— close students— I have been most close— affiliated with other Asian American students my whole life. I do not know what it is. Because I bet, they have advised organizations on most of my Facebook friends are former students. They know I care about Vietnam— [crosstalk 47:17] RB: Uh huh, that is pro— right. SM: —and most of them are Vietnamese. 47:22 SM: Okay, where did the (19)60s begin, in your opinion, and when did it end? And what is the watershed moment to you? 47:29 RB: Okay, I think the (19)60s began in 1954. 47:37 SM: Okay. 47:39 RB: With the civil rights movement, and sort of the burning movement of all the (19)60s. And then… I think it ended in the late… in the mid to late (19)70s. [inaudible] late seventies. 48:00 SM: Was there an— 48:01 RB: Then the economy changed, there was an oil crisis, the government changed. It really became different 48:09 SM: Say around, Jimmy Carter’s period? 48:10 RB: Yes, right. It was around Jimmy Carter's period. 48:13 SM: Some people in the [inaudible] 1975 because that is when the helicopters went off the– 48:17 RB: Right. 48:17 SM: And in Vietnam, but a lot happened in, in Jimmy Carter's here, too. 48:23 RB: Right. 48:23 SM: Was there a watershed moment? 48:25 RB: I do not think it is a watershed moment. I think it is gradual. 48:30 SM: So there is no— is there any one event you would— 48:32 RB: Well, I mean, the Supreme Court decision started things that were in the works in 1954. And the water— I do not, I cannot see an end. Because there is… trickles, still. 48:46 SM: The legal love of laws that have been passed in the lines of boomers. Now when we are talk— I am still using the term, I cannot— 48:55 RB: Right, that is okay. 48:56 SM: But it is from (19)40, (19)40 on– 48:58 RB: Right, right. 48:59 SM: The laws that were passed by the Supreme Court during this timeframe, they had the greatest impact not only on boomers, male and female of all colors and sexual orientation, but certainly women. What do you think are the most important for women? We know Brown versus Board of Education— 49:18 RB: Well, the Equal Rights Amendment, Title 9 for athletics for women was very important. 49:24 SM: That was in the (19)80s was not it… I think, yeah… yeah. 49:26 RB: Yeah, Title 9 was the (19)80s. Equal Rights Amendment was before that. The EEOC was very important to the Equal Opportunities Act. 49:37 SM: Well now what would that state? 49:39 RB: That stated that… Equal Opportunities Act, it had a board of discrimination and it added women as well as blacks… 49:49 SM: Okay. 49:49 RB: –to the Equal Right Amendment. And it also said, that since it had the idea of equity as well as equality… you could not have equality if there were no women in the job. So, you have to have an idea of equity. For example, there are no women truck drivers almost. But women— nurses have more training and more responsibility than truck drivers. So, if you look at equity, they should be paid as well. So, you have to look as equity as well as equality. 50:41 SM: Now do not forget Roe v. Wade. 50:43 RB: Yes. 50:43 SM: Yeah— 50:44 RB: And of course,1973, that was so basic. I was very active in the first abortion speak and– 50:53 SM: How important were the beats, in your opinion, in shaping the attitudes of not only the new left, but— actually activists of all— 51:03 RB: They were very important to me; they were very important to me. I mean, I, in high school, go to the village, I looked up to them. Even though women were not the key in the themes, it seemed like a big breakthrough. 51:26 SM: Ann Walden was the youngest of that group. She was born in 1946. When she was very close to Ginsburg— 51:34 RB: Uh huh, really? 51:34 SM: —there seemed to be a relationship between those two that was very strong. And they had the center— 51:41 RB: Well Susan Suntodd was somebody looked up to— 51:42 SM: Right, right. 51:43 RB: —and she was involved in that movement. Beats and existentialists were influences. I mean, I read. I read Ginsburg's poetry aloud. I went to readings of his— 52:02 SM: That was one of the— I was at one of his chants. At Ohio State. 52:07 RB: Yeah, oh, no, it was very moving, and a real breakthrough. 52:10 SM: Yeah, the banning of [inaudible] I believe was 1955— 52:17 RB: It was late— yeah, it was early. 52:19 SM: That was kind of a historic happening as well. And what was it about them that they challenged authority where they were like, very unique. They did not care what people thought of them . 52:28 RB: They challenged authority. They were also— they were against war. They were against bomb testing, war, all of those things. They— for me they dressed in black when the popular culture colors at that time were fuchsia and chartreuse. And they had freedoms, I mean, not only sexual freedoms, but marijuana. I mean, they— that was very, I mean, sex, drugs and rock and roll were very important. 53:15 SM: One person I interviewed out in California who was part of the counterculture out there, is it Neal Cassady? 53:22 RB: Yeah. 53:22 SM: He said Neal Cassady is the Beat. He is— you had the Ginsburg's, and you have your Snyder— [crosstalk 53:29] RB: Roman [inaudible] 53:30 SM: —[inaudible] all these others, but something about him, attracted all the others. And so people look to him as like the model Beat. you agree with that? 53:42 RB: No, I looked at Neal Cassady as a model too. 53:45 SM: I have a question here on healing. This is a question that I have asked— actually asked everyone, even Senator McCarthy when I first started this so long ago. It is a question of healing as a generation. In 1985, I took students to see Senator Muskie, six months before he passed away, he was not well, he had just gotten out of the hospital, and Gaylord Nelson had been able to organize this meeting with him. It was one of our leaderships. So, we took 14 students there and one of the questions they came up with it was based on videos they have— they have observed in the (19)60s. And the question they wanted to ask was, thinking that he would respond about 1968 in the summer, based on all the divisions that took place in America, in the 1960s, and (19)70s, including the divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, the riots and burnings within the cities, the assassinations during the (19)60s, the extreme divisions and those who supported the war, those who were against the war or those who supported the troops and against the troops. Do you think the boomer generation, like the Civil War generation, is going to go to its grave… not healing? And then they waited for him to respond. I will tell you, his response. Do you think… do you think that the boomer generation as a whole has an issue on healing because of this extreme divisions? I know you— many do not think about it, but some do! I am one of them. The divisions have— just were, so intense. And there was so much happening, that, you know, a lot of people like closure in their lives, but I am not sure if closure is possible. Just your thoughts on the concept of healing? 55:30 RB: I do not know about— I do not know— you know, I do not know about— I mean, I think… that… as far as anti-feminists, I do not feel much healing. But I can feel a lot of healing for people who went to Vietnam, I never was against the troops themselves. And I do not think we were, you know, many of us, so… And people that were for the war, they continue to be for these wars now, you know. I do not feel much sympathy with them. 56:18 SM: Somebody said, it might be better to say [inaudible] 56:22 RB: Yeah. 56:22 SM: I think I am fine– 56:26 RB: Yeah, I do not see– 56:28 SM: I am going to use this tape here. Some somebody said that it would be better if you simply just paraphrase this question, say those who supported the war, those who were against the war, which means those who went to war and those who did not, and that— and will that can ever heal? And the reason why the question came up is, what happens to the anti-war people when they go to the war for the first time, and they are with their kids? And they say, Dad, Mom, what did you do in the war? You know, that there is any guilt that they did not serve. I think that was really getting at when, when 58,000 plus died? 57:06 RB: Well, I mean, some of the people even if they did not serve, some of them protested against it. But then they were ones that did nothing. I mean, I think if you look at the wall, I do not feel it. My grandchildren now could be— asked me about it, I can tell them about protesting against this war that was killing people, and wars that are existing now. 57:34 SM: So, in a sense, what you are saying is that even the men who served in this war, they did their purpose, and we had our purpose— 57:42 RB: Purpose. 57:42 SM: —because it was genuine and real, and it was for good… 57:45 RB: Right, exactly. 57:45 SM: –it was not for bad. So, I am not going to criticize the young man. 57:51 RB: Criticizing them, is the people that sent them to war, and did not serve. 57:55 SM: Right. And then the people that protested the war— James [inaudible] does a great job talking about, there is difference between those who protested the war and those who evaded the draft. 58:05 RB: Right. 58:05 SM: And he is guilty. He feels guilty, but he does not, he does not [inaudible]. Because they did, because those people evaded the threat never protested the war. So– 58:13 RB: Right well, some had evaded the draft. I knew people that evaded the draft and protest the war. The– 58:21 SM: The— Senator Muskie answered the question in this way, he said that he never even responded about 1916. We thought he was going to talk about all the students in the [inaudible] each other— 58:32 RB: Right, yeah. 58:33 SM: He did not even mention it. He said we have not healed since the Civil War, because we have the same problem. We have the issue of race, and it has not— said it is still here. 58:41 RB: And it is, when you look at the states that voted for Obama in the states that did not it is a Civil War. 58:46 SM: And you know something when people say that they criticize Obama and then in the next breath, they say, “And I am not criticizing him because he is black.” If I hear that one more time I am going to jump out the window. Because I know some people, you know, I am not saying they are racist, but it is like, “my best friends are black.” That saying— I do not know… you do not have to, you do not have to say it!— 59:10 RB: You do not need to say it! Right. 59:13 SM: That is what Glenn Beck says. Do you think also the word that the— this particular generation is a generation that does not trust? And is that good? 59:23 RB: No— 59:23 SM: One of the characteristics of the generation is not a very trusting generation. 59:27 RB: I think it is good not to trust. You know, there is a lot in especially big government and government not to trust and questioning authority is very useful. 59:40 SM: That— 59:40 RB: We want our students to question. We want them to ask questions and not just assume that authorities are correct, since they are not most of the time. 59:51 SM: In a sense, you are saying that then this is healthy for democracy– 59:55 RB: It is. 59:55 SM: –because we are challenging the system. 59:57 RB: Right, and we need more challenging of the system. 1:00:02 SM: Very good. One of my interviewees said that now he has become a special— now— that, oh now has become a special interest group. I cannot read my own handwriting. That concentrates more on the irony, I already— I think I have already asked that question, so… strengths and weaknesses. Okay. What do you consider some of the strengths and weaknesses of the boomer generation? And I know you cannot, you cannot talk about a whole generation of people but you can talk about people you know. 1:00:30 RB: I think the strength of the people I know was that they were very daring… that they organized with other people… and protested for what they believed and stood up for what they believed, and some of them suffered for it. Some of them benefited. And the weaknesses are… that we did not have the staying power to change with changing times. And we also did not know our enemy. 1:01:30 SM: Has the enemy been the same for— 1:01:33 RB: No, the enemy has been very different. I mean, we had good times in the (19)60s, good economic times, liberal governments. And when it changed to more conservative times, we did not know how to deal with them. They knew how to deal with it, but we did not. They divided us. 1:01:53 SM: Yes, that is— 1:01:55 RB: They had spies in our organizations, we, you know, we were trusting people, we did not know any of this. 1:02:02 SM: This leads to a question here that, what was it like? And I am basically giving this question to you, what is it like being a female in America during the following timeframes, and maybe you have probably— your experience is comparable to other females of the time. And I am only saying the, because when we are looking at the boomers now, you know, we are talking right up to today so— 1:02:27 RB: That it was the most invigorating, marvelous, fun time. 1:02:31 SM: Let me break this down— 1:02:33 RB: I loved it. 1:02:34 SM: —what was it like from (19)46 to 1964 women that were— 1:02:39 RB: That was much harder. That was much harder. It was like, continual repression. Feeling a combination between oppressed and invisible. 1:02:53 SM: How about 1961 when President Kennedy came into 1970. 1:02:58 RB: That was joyous times. Fun was so important. It was so much fun to live in. It was, the atmosphere was anything is possible. Lots of experimentation, new freedoms, adventures, incredible friendships, Re- learning, and learning things. 1:03:40 SM: How about, how did the (19)70s differ from the (19)60s, say from 1971 to Reagan– 1:03:47 RB: (19)70s just started changing. I mean, America was not a great nation, and it began to be not a great nation anymore. We stopped producing anything. And we, it was no longer the same kind of times. Starting in late to mid (19)70s. 1:04:12 SM: Would you say that that period, right up to about (19)73, (19)74 is really part of the (19)60s because, yeah. 1:04:19 RB: Yes, that was part of the (19)60s, it was late (19)60s. 1:04:21 SM: How about 1981 to 1990, which was actually the period of Ronald Reagan and George Bush, the first. 1:04:28 RB: That became much harder. I mean, it came… I mean, the sixties had ended and you had to make a new life and realize that the movement was not there anymore, although some friendships continued and… 1:04:52 SM: Do you agr— Go ahead. 1:04:53 RB: …and some protests continued. 1:04:57 SM: Yeah, I know the anti-apartheid movement was about the only one that— the only movement that, that— that was early (19)80s, (19)83 to (19)84. 1:05:04 RB: Yes early (19)80s. 1:05:07 SM: Do you feel that the criticism oftentimes of people that grew up in the (19)60s generation, which is all of them, but basically is that their idealism died as they got older, that they are no different than any other generation as time goes on. They become parents, they get a job. There is always this scattering of people that stay the way they were, but the majority of them just moved on with their lives. And, and when they said, when they were young, that they were going to change the world. And we are going to end war, great peace, and racism, sexism, homophobia, and make the world a better place to live that, that was just young people talking and dreaming and hoping but in reality, as life goes on, they have responsibilities. And, and security does mean a lot to them. Because they got to put bread on the table. Just your thoughts on that. 1:05:57 RM: I think that many, many people from the (19)60s that I know, are still active, and not active in the same way. Because the world has changed. And whenever I have a student who is an activist, it turns out that someone else is an activist in their family, and many I mean, my son's activist, I mean, they— it is not— they do change, and they do go on and their lifestyles change. But some of their idealism lives and they are still protesting in their way. 1:06:47 SM: You know, it is interesting— 1:06:48 RB: Or teaching, and passing it on to their students. 1:06:51 SM: As I, as I have gotten older, because I am in my early (19)60s, now. It has gotten stronger in me, not… not weaker, because I am more confident in who I am, what I am all about, and I know who I am as a human being, and that is who I am. And so— 1:07:09 RB: No one I know almost has— the only person that I know, personally, that has gotten conservative is David [inaudible]. But most… most of the people have not. True their lives have changed, they have jobs and things, but they have not gotten conservative. 1:07:24 SM: Think his friend [inaudible], another one. They were both- 1:07:27 RB: Oh yeah, Peter, I did not know Peter. 1:07:29 SM: Yeah, yeah. 1:07:29 RB: I did not know Peter. 1:07:30 SM: Yeah, I think he was— 1:07:31 RB: Yeah, I did not know Peter. 1:07:32 SM: —[inaudible] too. 1:07:32 RB: But I did not know. 1:07:35 SM: You already talked about the— 1:07:39 RB: Yeah. 1:07:39 SM: Alright, where is it [inaudible]. Anyway, I am moving around here. 1:07:44 RB: Right that is okay. 1:07:46 SM: And, I think you have already talked about your books, both prominent writers. Legal decisions, we were doing pretty good. If you were in a packed house, of 500 female college students today. And one asked you named the three or four events in your personal life that made you who you are today. Now, this is a little takeout, from the first question, but it is a little more specific, with all of your strengths and imperfections that we all have as human beings, what are they? And I asked this to Peter Kyer and Peter Kyer said, you know, I cannot answer that. You know, I got to think for a while. Then, he— then he thought about, jeez, yeah it was— I had a maid when I grew up, who was an African American maid, and she was very important. And then he went on to talk about the experience about the maid. And then he was writing a book on it. He was writing a book on the maid. And then he said, he talks about, well, then, then I had this person that did this for me. And then I know that I went to— I just happen to be at this particular event at this time. So, he has really just really went to town on it. Other— now you have already mentioned a lot of things that influenced you— 1:09:00 RB: Yeah, I do not— 1:09:01 SM: But are there specific events? 1:09:02 RB: Specific events… I do remember, that I could not go— my birthday party had it be called off because the Rosenbergs were being executed. And that had an enormous impact on me, not only because as a kid, I was angry that my birthday party had to end. And but I then we went to this demonstration. I was a kid about the Rosenberg— 1:09:45 SM: I do not think they were guilty. 1:09:47 RB: Well she certainly was not. 1:09:49 SM: Yeah. 1:09:50 RB: Even if, you know, the bombs he did was not even a secret. But anyway, the thing is that all around the world, they protested this. And, I mean, I saw that there were events that were much huge-er than me, like my birthday party. This execution, which was a world event, right? So, it sorts of put in perspective, the personal and political. There were these events outside that determined people's lives. Plus, it scared me that my parents could be killed. You know? Not that I even knew they were communists at that time, but I knew there was something a little different about them. 1:10:42 SM: Were you aware of the Hollywood 10? At that time, too? And their testimonies before the- 1:10:47 RB: Not totally, but my parents knew some of those people. So, I mean — 1:10:51 SM: And, and the people that lost their lives? 1:10:53 RB: Yes, I knew— 1:10:54 SM: Committed suicide because— 1:10:56 RB: Right, I knew a little about that. Yeah. 1:10:59 SM: Was there a generation gap in your family at all, but if any- were your, were your with you and your parents, in any way— 1:11:04 RB: Yeah, there was a generation gap. I mean, you know, they did not like the music I listened to or the sloppy the way they thought I was dressing, no there was definitely a generation gap. 1:11:18 SM: Now, what is interesting, I interviewed a very powerful Vietnam veteran about a month ago in Washington, Jack Wheeler was the guy who raised the funds for the Vietnam Memorial. And, and there was a symposium in 1980 with James Fallows, Phil Caputo. Really top people— Bobby Muller. And basically, they talked, they said- was talked about the generation gap. And one of them— oh and James Webb was not a senator. And I think they brought up the fact that the generation gap to them was not between parents, and their sons and daughters. It was we- it was within the generation, that the generation gap was those who served and those who chose not to serve. And James Webb, if I make sure I get his quote correct because he is a pretty tough cookie. He said that… he thinks that the boomer generation, which is being praised for being a generation that served, really is the generation that did not. By people who protested and did not go to war when people in World War II and World War I, and it was it was a rite of passage, one of the services— to serve your nation. You know we had so many, that did not serve either in a variety of ways. So that was what he thought generation gap was. Do you think you agree with that concept, or– 1:12:44 RB: I did not have that much experience with that. Yeah. 1:12:51 SM: Yeah. 1:12:51 RB: But that is, it is very different for people. So— 1:12:57 SM: Yeah, especially if there was a rite of passage that many of them have gone through. 1:13:03 RB: Right they think— people serve for many different reasons. I mean, I have this black friend that, you know, it is just a way out of his life. 1:13:11 SM: Yeah, I— 1:13:12 RB: Not like he was so gung-ho war, or saw it as a passage. You know, I do not know, he made two girls pregnant. He, you know, did not know what he was doing and it was just like kids that serve today. 1:13:26 SM: So, some go in there for a career too and some did that. 1:13:30 RB: Want to get their school paid for I have students all the time that tell me they want to enlist to get— 1:13:35 SM: One of the criticisms of the military back then is that they did that to young people that did not have any money. And as a result, they end up dead in Vietnam. There was a con job so to speak. What are, what are some of the slogans of the women's movement? I have been asking a question about slogans. And I said, there were three slogans that I personally feel kind of define the boomer generation. One of them is Malcolm X by saying and “by any means necessary”, which is symbolic of the more radical revolutionary toward violence type of mentality. 1:14:09 RB: The Women's Movement was pretty anti violence. 1:14:11 SM: The second one was the hippie mentality, which Peter max it was, I am a poster you do your thing. I will do mine. If by chance we should get together that will be beautiful. 1:14:21 RB: Yeah, no, but for movement build that is not good. 1:14:23 SM: Yeah, and the third one was the one Bobby Kennedy was quoted. He took it from the writer from the 19th century. And the summons sees things as they are and ask why I see things that never were asked why not, which is a more of an activist mentality— 1:14:38 RB: Uh huh, right, yes, that one makes more sense 1:14:40 SM: —of seeking justice [inaudible]. So those three I thought, but I did not know if there was any other— 1:14:45 RB: The woman’s movement, the personal as political. That what you think of is personal. Like if you are being beaten. It is not personal, it is political. And having an abortion, birth control, they are not only personal issues, they are political issues as well. So that was a very important one, the personal is political. 1:15:12 SM: The last two periods that I did not talk about was the period 1991 to 2000, which was the end of the George Bush period and the Bill Clinton era. What is— what is that, for women and for you, for example just— 1:15:25 RB: Pretty bleak. Pretty bleak. 1:15:29 SM: Any progress there in any way? 1:15:33 RB: Not too much. 1:15:35 SM: And then, of course, the years— 1:15:36 RB: No, I would say it was the opposite of progress. It was going backwards. They have changed abortion to make it harder to get abortions, there are fewer abortions. People do not give abortions anymore. I mean, it has gotten backwards. 1:15:52 SM: And the year— 1:15:53 RB: [inaudible] starting to get a little better. 1:15:54 SM: The year 2001 to 2010 with George Bush the second and for Barack Obama on this— 1:16:00 RB: Well with Barack Obama there is at least there is hope. We do not know where it is going to lead, but at least there was hope. 1:16:08 SM: We are in obviously, in another war with George Bush with Iraq and Afghanistan. 1:16:13 RB: Right, we are. 1:16:14 SM: And certainly, Obama's going to gung-ho. 1:16:16 RB: He is. 1:16:17 SM: So, I do not know where that will lead. 1:16:25 SM: I would like your reaction to the following people. 1:16:29 RB: Okay. 1:16:29 SM: Terms, and what these events mean to you personally. 1:16:33 RB: Okay 1:16:33 SM: And we have still got at least 15 minutes here. Kent State, Jackson State, what does that mean to you? 1:16:40 RB: It meant a lot to me, Kent State, Jackson State. First of all, Jackson State people do not know about as much as Kent State. And it was a more working-class college. It was not an elite college. So it was very important. And then Jackson State, which was much more ignored, was equally important. And even though they came at the end, they were exceedingly important, and the fact that it was getting more violent. And people getting were more frustrated on both sides was very important. 1:17:22 SM: What does the wall mean to you? The Vietnam Memorial. 1:17:26 RB: It was a very important commemoration when I have gone there and seen all those names. And I do not know people that died in Vietnam, but it was just— it was a very moving, important Memorial. Just to have some kind of commemoration of the damages. 1:17:52 SM: Have you ever met Diane Carlson Evans? The Women’s Memorial? 1:17:55 RB: No, no. 1:17:55 SM: You ought to meet her someday. 1:17:56 RB: Yeah, I know. 1:17:57 SM: Got to bring her to your class. What a- she went before Congress to fight for the women’s memorial— 1:18:00 RB: No, I know she did, I know she did. 1:18:03 SM: And because she saw the eight names that were on the wall, but with a three-man statue, she fought for that woman statue. She did a good job. It is interesting when I asked a powerful Vietnam vet that the question about what I mean I heard that Diane really had to fight to get that Memorial built. What kind of— was there any sexism within the Vietnam veteran community? And he immediately responded, he said, no, we supported Diane from the get go. And of course, I have heard otherwise, but not from him. And it was basic as that, well look at the wall, Maya Lin designed the wall, she was a female. Who designed the woman's memorial? Glenna Goodacre. And then there was a man that designed the three man statues so two of the three main standards are women. And so, so there is our case. What does Watergate mean to you? 1:18:58 RB: Watergate, was really an opening that- first of all, it was televised. And people really got to understand what this dirty Nixon government was doing. And it was the beginning of unraveling that people could really see and feel. I mean, this new unraveling it is, it is almost like the Pentagon Papers. It has, has not created a ripple. 1:19:37 SM: Yeah, starting. But just the term counterculture. 1:19:41 RB: Yeah. 1:19:41 SM: What do you think of that. Were you- I wonder how do you— 1:19:44 RB: I define myself as part of the counterculture- 1:19:47 SM: And what is the counterculture to you? 1:19:49 RB: I like the counterculture; it was not the mainstream culture. It was not having the same goals of conquering people's— treating people very differently, wanting to live life in the moment. And it was caring for the earth– 1:20:21 SM: How About hippies and yippies. Hippies— 1:20:24 RB: Yeah, I like the hippies. You know, when I felt like a hippie myself, I lived on the Lower East Side. Liked the hippie culture. It was an alternative to the admin culture. 1:20:37 SM: How about the yippies which was Hoffman and Ruban— 1:20:40 RB: Yeah, well, I knew them. I was not as— I mean, I knew them personally. And I mean, they did things like burn money. I mean, they showed contempt for values that I felt should be made to quest- to people to question. 1:21:03 SM: How about Woodstock and Summer of Love, two separate incidents. One in (19)69, and one is (19)67. 1:21:05 RB: I did not go to Woodstock. I could have, but… I mean, it was a memorable occasion. Music was good. 1:21:20 SM: A lot of people forget the summer solstice of (19)68. 1:21:23 RB: Right. 1:21:23 SM: Yeah, that is, I— nobody talks about it. But that was big, too. 1:21:28 RB: Right? 1:21:28 SM: The year 1968. What does that mean to you? 1:21:31 RB: 1968? It meant the international movement. And it meant the beginning of the women's movement. There was a movement in Mexico, there was a movement in Germany. 1:21:47 SM: Yes. 1:21:47 RB: It was a worldwide— 1:21:50 SM: France. 1:21:51 RB: —New Left. Yeah, France. New Left. It was a worldwide— New Left was an international group which was very important. 1:22:01 SM: The 1963 march on Washington. 1:22:05 RB: That was incredibly important as well, in that racism could not be denied any longer. Thousands of people were daring to dream that it might be different. And mobilizing. And even though it was not the radical part of the civil rights movement, it was people from all over the United States. Unions, different people, maids, chauffeurs so many different people coming together. 1:22:49 SM: How about the incident on Wall Street with hard hats, beating up hippies with long hair. That was pretty similar. Like– 1:22:58 RB: Yeah, that was— showed the enormous class differences. The press was pushing. 1:23:08 SM: Some people say that was what was the silent majority were those hard hats. Because that was what Nixon was always talking about , the silent majority. 1:23:21 RB: I do not think they were the silent majority. But anyway, you know, they had their point. And they blame the wrong enemy. 1:23:28 SM: You brought up black power and black power was really prevalent on college campus, late (19)60s, early (19)70s. And Kent state, you cannot even hardly find an African American student, because it is more all white students. I am actually interviewing the president of Kansas State Student Government in three weeks. And he was an African American. But there was a— if you read James’s Michener’s book, I can state there were no African American students there. And if there were, they were asked to leave, because at that time— I was on Ohio State's campus in the early (19)70s. And black students went more towards what was happening in America and not toward Vietnam. There was that split, and the Afros and everything was pretty strong there. So black power, your thoughts on black power, and its intimidation factor number one and Black Panthers and the concept of what they were all about in terms of— 1:24:23 RB: Well, in a way, black power was a lot like separatism that had been, you know, there since Booker T. Washington, and saying, look, we can do it alone. And in the women's movement in some way. We were inspired by black power, because women's power, we had our own movement. We did not have men in the movement. And it inspired us to do our thing on our own and that we did not need men to be leaders anymore. We could be the leaders. So, there were lots of correspondences between black power and the women's movement. 1:25:12 SM: What did you think of the- when… did you think Black Panthers were violent? Number one, even though they had the food program and number two, SDS went from being an antiwar group to a violent group. Yeah, well, the weatherman- 1:25:27 RB: I am actually very against the weatherman. And they were the most macho people too. And anti-women and kind of ways and guns and macho. And it was the most anti female thing. And I did not like that transition at all. 1:25:44 SM: I mentioned that even in the American Indian Movement from (19)69 to (19)73 that was so strong that the hopes that Alcatraz, when they took over Alcatraz, and then the violence at Wounded Knee showed again, the violence does not win. Right. So, you had you had Wounded Knee for Native Americans. you had the weatherman for SDS, you had the Black Panthers, right? People have Huey Newton or Bobby Seale says we were not violent. We were there— we had guns to protect ourselves because police had guns, but then then also the Young Lords, which was the Latina, Puerto Rican group, they kind of copied the Black Panthers, so— 1:26:18 RB: But they also had breakfast programs and other things, as you say that people forget. 1:26:22 SM: Right. Right. What did you think of Earth Day? 1:26:28 RB: Earth Day, I remember going to Earth Day and my son knew more people on the demonstration for the first time than I did. 1:26:36 SM: You were in Washington for the big one? 1:26:37 RB: I was in New York City. 1:26:39 SM: Okay. 1:26:39 RB: Was it June 13th? One— and I remember my son went with me and he was saying hi to everyone and knew everyone. And I thought that was just great, that he knew more people than I did. 1:26:49 SM: Let me change the tape. 1:26:58 SM: Like at least— 1:26:59 RB: And the hippies had some of the Earth kind of things and preserving the Earth in them as well. I mean, I began having gardens and sewing things and caring about the earth and the water supply and mulching as a hippie. So, Earth Day seemed a continuation of those concerns. 1:27:25 SM: Yeah, I think the environmental movement is very strong today. Of course, there is a lot of enemies of it. 1:27:29 RB: Yeah. But it is stronger. 1:27:30 SM: It is, it is very strong. 1:27:31 RB: And it will get stronger with things like BP. 1:27:35 SM: Oh, my gosh, yes. 1:27:36 SM: The Free Speech Movement, (19)64. Just your thoughts on it? Because it was really the preamble to all the foul– 1:27:44 RB: In California. 1:27:45 SM: Yeah. 1:27:46 RB: Because, I mean, I was writing about Elizabeth Gurley Flynn and, in the Wobblies, the IWW. They had to have free speech movements, and they call them free speech movements, in order to be heard. So, in order to even raise money, with people in the south, you had to have a Free Speech Movement, to even talk about the war, and to talk about the civil rights movement. So, it had to come first. And free speech is always part of a movement. 1:28:22 SM: But I always admire— I wish I had met Mario Savio; he was not a well man. He died in his fifties. 1:28:27 RB: Right. 1:28:27 SM: And I do not know if you saw him [inaudible] I mean, there is a new book by Dr. Cohen at NYU— 1:28:33 RB: Right, yeah, NYU. 1:28:35 SM: I am interviewing in September— 1:28:37 RB: Right, my son [inaudible] 1:28:38 SM: —Strictly an hour and a half. Nothing but the free speech movement. And but one of the things that stands out, and I want you to comment on it, that he… that Mario Savio, whether you liked his style of speaking or where he, you know, came I think he originally came from New York— 1:28:56 RB: He did come from New York. 1:28:57 SM: Yeah. And the fact that you got to admire this guy, because he-he got it, that the university was about ideas. And he talks about the recent, you know, stopping about literature being handed out, you are denying ideas on a university campus. And so, he did what Clark Kerr talked about in the uses of the university, the noun, not the knowledge factory was like the corporate factory. And so, he was challenging that kind of a system— 1:29:30 RB: [crosstalk] Right and he was saying— 1:29:31 SM: The corporate mentality— 1:29:32 RB: —we cannot be cogs in a wheel 1:29:33 SM: Yeah. 1:29:33 RB: We have to change. You know, we are not little cogs. We have to open our minds. And that is supposedly what learning is about, and you cannot learn unless you have many ideas. 1:29:47 SM: See that is what worries me about the lessons that were learned from the Free Speech Movement and everything right up through probably today is that is when I interviewed Arthur Chickering, who gave me an hour and a half of his time on the phone, the great educator, rural education identity that we had to read for my graduate program. I asked him, is there any last comments you would like to make when I ended the interview. He says, yes. I am disappointed in today's universities for one reason the corporations are taking over. 1:30:13 RB: Yes, they are. 1:30:14 SM: And this is from a conservative educator— 1:30:17 RB: Yeah, but it is true, yeah. 1:30:19 SM: And that was exactly what Mario was saying. And that was [inaudible] 1:30:22 RB: Things have gotten so much worse! 1:30:24 SM: Scholarships are all based on raising funds. Everything is raising, you know, buildings are named just raising funds, scholarships, it is everything. And even in activities in— 1:30:35 RB: Even the kind of funding that is given, the people's work. 1:30:40 SM: Yeah, it has got to show that it is— 1:30:42 RB: That was what we were protesting against now the university is much worse. And also, the idea of public schools. We do not even have- we used to have free public schools. Now, even though state universities are so expensive— 1:30:57 SM: [inaudible] yeah. 1:30:58 RB: It has gone up 18 times since I have taught. 1:31:01 SM: Yeah, yeah. And I do not know what is going to happen to Berkeley. Because— 1:31:06 RB: No— 1:31:06 SM: I know some students that have left, they were not coming back. They were going to, they were going to another, they were leaving, they were leaving Berkeley! 1:31:13 RB: Right, I know, they are ruining, they are really making things— also, it is what is happening in our country now, where the differences between the rich and the poor are getting greater and greater. The gaps between the rich— 1:31:26 SM: Yeah and the middle class is going to go into the poor, and the- so 2 percent and the 98 percent— 1:31:29 RB: Right, and it is really what is happening, and therefore. for public education, they do not care. 1:31:36 SM Just a few more here, Freedom Summer. 1:31:40 RB: It was very important in— that was very important, not only for the work that was done, you know, educating black people in freedom schools, but the white people changed so much. Seeing the roles of the blacks and black leaders like Fannie Lou Hamer, and that there were people who were sharecroppers who had no education but could teach you a whole lot. And it gave people a new sense of class. And what you could learn from the people. 1:32:22 SM: Sergeant Shriver in the Peace Corps, and I— and I say Sergeant Shriver, he has got Alzheimer's now just like— 1:32:28 SM: Yeah, that is what I hear. 1:32:30 SM: And he is not long for this world, unfortunately. 1:32:34 RB: But the person from Pennsylvania who started the Peace Corps, he was president of my college at first. 1:32:38 SM: I have interviewed two pe— Harris Wofford! 1:32:39 RB: Harris Wofford. He was— 1:32:40 SM: I know Harris Wofford. 1:32:41 RB: —He was president of Old Westbury. 1:32:43 SM: Yeah. And well, I know him well in fact— 1:32:45 RB: I do not know him well. But he was president of Old Westbury when I first came. 1:32:50 SM: Yeah, well, he was from, from California. He was my first speaker at Thomas Jefferson University. Then I went over to his law office before he worked for Governor Scranton and I, seeking an hour of his time, and I invited him four times to come and speak at our school once during the Rodney King crisis when he was senator. And, and I interviewed him in his backyard, before we moved to Washington, where this book, and he— his wife, was just Claire was everything to him. And he has never been the same since he last- 1:33:22 RB: Were, well, he was president of a college so I— 1:33:26 SM: But just your thoughts on Sergeant Shriver and the Peace Corps- 1:33:28 RB: I think the Peace Corps was another very important idea, especially… We live in a world economy. And it is very important that people to see what America does to the rest of the world and how what we can learn from them, and they from us. And it was very meaningful for people who went I know, people that were in the Peace Corps, and it changed them enormously. 1:33:54 SM: What are your thoughts? When you look at the Presidents since 1946, which includes, one of the things I learned very early, when I was four or five, I learned all my presidents. I learned them the least. 1:34:05 RB: Most of the presidents have been very dismal. The good ones stand out. As a historian that is what I think. 1:34:11 SM: Well, when you think of when you think of Truman, and Eisenhower, and certainly Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, and then you have Ford. 1:34:23 RB: Ford, yeah. 1:34:24 SM: Carter, Reagan, George Bush the first, Bill Clinton, George Bush the second, and now Obama, when you think of these people, these are the presidents that have been alive when boomers have been alive. And if you are talking about even FDR, for those that were born in the early (19)40s. Any of those events do you admire for their issue, for their work on behalf of women when they were in positions of leadership? 1:34:51 RB: Eleanor Roosevelt, not— not Roosevelt, and under Johnson, very good legislation was passed. I mean, the Peace Corps and those things did affect women. And the War on Poverty did affect women. Not specifically, he did not appoint that many women or have feminist consciousness, but some of his programs were really important for women. Johnson above them all. 1:35:19 SM: What were some of those programs? 1:35:21 RB: Well, I said the War on Poverty, the Peace Corps… Equal Rights Amendment passed under him, ERA. 1:35:37 SM: You mentioned also Eleanor Roosevelt and I have not talked about her at all, hardly in any of my interviews, but— 1:35:43 RB: Human Rights, she was the one to talk about human rights and she is very important. And as a wife of a president, she was very active in her role. 1:35:53 SM: She lived until— 1:35:54 RB: Aside from being gay, you know— 1:35:55 SM: She lived until (19)62, 1962. 1:35:58 RB: Right, she was very active in the UN. 1:36:03 SM: So, she was too— she— would you say she was a person— 1:36:05 RB: She was someone you could— I looked up to her. 1:36:08 SM: The women's movement is also often identified as a United States effort. But when I interviewed Charlotte Bunch– 1:36:16 RB: Oh, she— 1:36:16 SM: She talked about the international aspects, was Eleanor Roosevelt, a key figure in the international women's issues in the UN? 1:36:24 RB: She was in the UN 1:36:27 SM: Right. 1:36:27 RB: In UN, in Human Rights. 1:36:28 SM: Just a few more names, I do not tell you— 1:36:30 RB: Okay, that 1s alright. 1:36:31 SM: Okay I am going to— at least they are all— because— just your thoughts on Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda. 1:36:37 SM: Um, Tom Hayden is still doing very good work. Now. I get this newsletter that he does. And he is one person who has changed with changing time and continued to be important. I mean, I really liked his Newark project… in Newark. He was not very good to Casey Hayden, or he was not good to other girlfriends, but on the whole, I think he is a very positive role. And he continues to be an activist. 1:37:14 SM: He has written and brand-new book now on the movement. 1:37:18 RB: Right, yeah, so, he continues, I mean, he is someone who is lasting. 1:37:22 SM: Jane Fonda. 1:38:25 RB: Jane Fonda. I mean, she popularized, really, fitness and protest for a while, and she certainly was hated. By the right. They made her a major enemy. 1:37:40 SM: And they still do. 1:37:43 RB: And as you know, a founder and an actress she played an important media role. 1:37:49 SM: I am interviewing Jeremy or Jerry Alinsky tomorrow, who wrote a book— 1:37:52 RB: Oh, right. Yeah, right. 1:37:53 SM: [inaudible] on Jane Fonda about Miss— Danny Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. Just your thoughts on both of them. 1:38:03 RB: They made protesting very much fun. And they, they had this yippies. I mean, I did not think of it is irresponsible, but some people good. I mean, they wanted people to feel that you could have a hell of a good time and still protest, and be very creative and inventive. 1:38:36 SM: How About the Black Panthers. And I said just like I cannot just say Black Panthers because they had like seven or eight major personalities and just if any of these people stand out— Stokely Carmichael was obviously when was— 1:38:50 RB: He is international. 1:38:51 SM: Yeah, he challenged Dr. King— 1:38:51 RB: [inaudible] Yes, right. 1:38:53 SM: —your time has passed and so Stokely Carmichael, of course, Bobby Seale, and Huey Newton and Eldridge Cleaver and Kathleen Cleaver and H. Rhett. Brown. 1:39:03 RB: They are all very different. Kathleen Cleaver, I was reading a book the other day; she did the introduction. She is a lawyer now. I mean, they are very, I mean, Huey Newton turned out to be a criminal. I mean, they are— they are all very different. Bobby Rush beat Obama— 1:39:20 SM: Oh, that is right— that is right. 1:39:22 RB: You know, they are very, very different people all of them. 1:39:27 SM: And the one that was murdered in Chicago. Yeah. 1:39:29 RB: Yeah. What is his name? The Chicago brown women. The Chicago branch was one of the best branches of the, of the Black Panthers. They are the ones that had a big breakfast program. 1:39:40 SM: And then there is the— Angela Davis who was not a Black Panther. 1:39:34 RB: She was sort of a media… communist, media star. 1:39:51 SM: Anything about her? 1:39:53 RB: I mean, intellectually, she, I mean, I used something that she wrote in my class about slave narratives. She wrote something about Douglass. 1:40:12 SM: How about Tommy Smith and John Carlos, they were in the 1968 Olympics. They raised their fists. 1:40:17 RB: Yeah, right, I do not, you know– 1:40:18 SM: They are black power. 1:40:19 RB: Yeah, right. 1:40:20 SM: Not Black Panthers. 1:40:21 RB: Right. 1:40:23 SM: Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers. 1:40:27 RB: You know, very useful event. I wish the new papers had as much impact as he did. That is a very brave individual. 1:40:37 SM: How about Dr. Benjamin Spock? 1:40:40 RB: I mean, my father was a friend of his. 1:40:43 SM: Really? 1:40:43 RB: Yeah. My father was a friend of his, he thanks him. My father, in his book. My father helped make him more left. 1:40:51 SM: Your— your father wrote a book? 1:40:53 RB: No, Ben Spock’s Book. 1:40:56 SM: Oh, I have Ben Spock’s book— 1:40:58 RB: Yeah I believe he thanked my father, Lewis Fraad, for helping him. 1:41:03 SM: How about Timothy Leary? 1:41:07 RB: LSD. I do not know, guess he escaped from prison too. No. 1:41:13 SM: Yeah. The weathermen got him. 1:41:16 RB: Yeah well, LSD, you know. 1:41:20 SM: George McGovern and Eugene McCarthy. 1:41:22 RB: I did not relate to them that much. 1:41:25 SM: Neither one of them? 1:41:27 RB: Neither of them, nope. 1:41:28 SM: What about LBJ and Hubert Humphrey? 1:41:31 RB: Oh, LBJ, in retrospect, as a historian, I think was very important to Senate leader and president, but I did not at the time. 1:41:40 SM: What about Nixon and Agnew? 1:41:42 RB: Well they were major enemies– 1:41:45 SM: And… RB: But they look good in comparison to Bush, and smart. 1:41:49 SM: George Wallace. 1:41:51 RB: At least he changed. 1:41:54 SM: Barry Goldwater and William Buckley, because those are major. 1:41:57 RB: Yeah, they were at least thinkers. They are much better than the right wingers that are around today, like Sarah Palin's much more intelligent and thoughtful. 1:42:07 SM: But the— Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan. 1:42:11 RB: I think more of Betty Friedan than I do of Gloria Steinem. I mean, she is a media figure. There is nothing that she has written or said that I think is very worthwhile, but she certainly is a figure that people look to. 1:42:23 SM: About Bella Abzug. 1:42:25 RB: I admired her a lot. 1:42:27 SM: [crosstalk] A lot of people do not realize he was waiting before she was a congressman. 1:42:29 RB: —She was very gutsy— 1:42:30 RB: Very gutsy person. 1:42:32 SM: She risked her life going down South. 1:42:34 RB: Oh I know. She was an amazing person. She-she- I helped her start a daycare center. She wanted one in her campaign headquarters. 1:42:47 SM: Wow. Muhammad Ali and Jackie Robinson— 1:42:50 RB: I looked up to Mohammed Ali and Jackie Robinson and I think it is odd that my students do not know who either of them are 1:42:56 SM: That is amazing. 1:42:57 RB: Black students, have never heard of Jackie Robinson. 1:43:00 SM: See another one that is now up there is Curt Flood because Curt Flood was [inaudible] now more is being written. There is a couple of biographies coming on, on him. And they are going to do a section in the Cooperstown on him. 1:43:11 RB: Oh, really? 1:43:12 SM: Yeah. Because he has, he has not, he has not given any [inaudible] again. 1:43:17 RB: Yeah no. 1:53:17 SM: They bought him— actually, Muhammad Ali, is… I cannot think of— anything else here? 1:43:22 RB: I did not even like boxing, but I watched Muhammad Ali. 1:43:27 SM: Yeah, he was, he was something else. As far as, as far as musicians of the period and the music was very important politically, it was in tune with the times, but how important was music in your life in terms of not only just relaxing you and laying back and enjoying it— 1:43:43 RB: Like as protests, it was. It was. 1:43:44 SM: —but in terms of stimulation, who were the artists that really stimulated you? 1:43:47 RB: I mean even though there was sexist artist, the beat and things like the Rolling Stones influenced me and I went to the concerts and Dylan. I mean, I was influenced by male rock and roll. Even if the words were saying something different to me than the rhythms. 1:44:09 SM: Were you into Folk, as much as Ryan. 1:44:10 RB: I was into folk music. 1:44:13 SM: About the Motown sound. 1:44:15 RB: I liked Motown; I still adore Motown. 1:44:16 SM: Is there one album that you have that stands out but like me people? 1:44:24 RB: Maybe, I like Janis Joplin. I like Janis Joplin a lot. And she inspired me and feminist kind of ways. 1:44:35 SM: Too bad she passed away really quick, very bad drug situation. And down to my last three questions, what role did women play in ending the war in Vietnam, because the group or groups of personalities, the role of women in building the women's Vietnam memorial. We all know about Diane Car— Carlson Evans, who was involved in that. But the reason I bring this up is because when I interviewed John Wheeler in Washington, DC who raised funds and he has, he wrote a book, Touched With Fire. He says the three most important things that happened as a result of the Vietnam War was the— that women were, were antiwar or involved in the antiwar movement. And it was really inspirational. So, it was right during the women's movement. So— 1:45:23 RB: It was during the women’s movement. And we were very involved in the antiwar movement, as involved as men. 1:45:29 SM: Do you feel that one of the things is lacking today and students understanding— they think in terms of power and empowerment, we had Tom Hayden on our campus about six years ago. And Tom, Tom talked—[third speaker interrupts]—we were talking about women— 1:45:53 RB: In Vietnam now. I think we were the troops in the movement. We I mean, I know people like Leslie Kagan that were ahead of mold and devoted their lives to the antiwar movement. 1:46:05 SM: Are there— you said you went to some of them? Protests— 1:46:10 RB: Pentagon loans. 1:46:11 SM: Were you there at the (19)67, the raising— 1:46:15 RB: Yes, the raising of the— I was there. I was even in the front lines. 1:46:18 SM: And Norman Mailer was there. 1:46:20 RB: Yes, I know. 1:46:21 SM: And as was— Dr. Spock was there too. 1:46:24 RB: Spock was there yet. My father was in jail. Yeah. 1:46:28 SM: What was that like? A lot of people will laugh, their going to levitate the Pentagon in (19)67. What is the… what was that feeling like being there? 1:46:37 RB: The feeling was, that we have the power to, we have the power. And you do not take it literally, to rock the Pentagon. To make it air. 1:46:51 SM: Were you there at the time that the guy burned himself? Underneath McNamara? 1:46:53 RB: Oh, no, I was not there. 1:46:55 SM: What do you think of McNamara and Kissinger? 1:47:01 RB: I think they are war criminals. 1:47:06 SM: Yeah, so what I was getting at here is that when Tom Hayden was on our campus, he asked our student government if they had, if they were empowered, and they said, oh, yeah, we determine budgets, we give out money. And Tom said, we control the money that goes, no, I am not talking about power. I am talking about power. They did not have a- they did not know any difference between it. And I do know that I brought up in a student affair once meeting of the word empowerment and that scared, you know, just saying power. What is it about the difference between the word empowerment as opposed to power, I mean? 1:47:40 RB: Empowerment is sort of a spiritual state of mind. And it is an individual thing, of empowerment. It means like, you can feel empowered, you can change the color of your hair and feel differently and feel empowered. But it has nothing to do with power and who rules. 1:48:05 SM: Yet, Tom— 1:48:05 RB: It is an individual kind of… thing. I feel empowered. 1:48:11 SM: See he told me at dinner, he says, I hope the students in the audience are not like the students at dinner with me. He was dead serious. And no, they were not that was, that— those students went off to student government, and— and then the students that were at the program stayed about an hour afterwards and Tom started talking to them. That is the Tom, that, yeah, those are the ones that ask the questions. My very last question, legacy. What do you—two-part question—what do you think the legacy of the women's movement will— do you think there will be a third wave? You know, there was the first wave. I even took my dad before he passed away to Elizabeth Cady Stanton’s home after her father died. 1:48:56 RB: Oh, wow that is wonderful. 1:48:57 SM: And I— one of my famous, favorite shots is walking up the back stairs with my dad looking up at me. And we were— and I have gone to Elizabeth Cady Stanton house three times now since my dad died, and again brings tears to my eyes, it was a great memory of being with him that day at the house. But getting back to this, will there be a third wave in the women’s movement? And what is the legacy of the second wave? 1:49:24 RB: I hope so. And the legacy of the second way is, as I said, the way people think, dream, act, imagine, live their lives. And I would hope that there is going to be a third wave. 1:49:44 SM: Do you think that— when— you are a scholar and you write books, and scholars often know that the best history books are written 50 years after an event like the best World War II books— 1:49:51 RB: Oh yeah definitely. 1:49:52 SM: 50 years after the (19)60s and (19)70s, I will say 50 years from 1980 when Reagan came to power, what do you think the history books are going to say about that time and the generation that grew up after World War II? 1:50:11 RB: I think people are going to admire it a great deal and see the enormous changes that were made, and that it was a real triumph of democracy, from below. 1:50:25 SM: And those media people today, whether it be Newt Gingrich or George Orwell, in his writings, or Mike Huckabee, on his TV show or some of the commentators on Fox when they say that a lot of problems in America today are due to those times in the (19)60s and (19)70s, when love was rampant, drugs were rampant, divorces were rampant– 1:50:52 RB: Well, those people are divorced more than most people in the sixties, that is all I can say. 1:50:56 SM: Yeah, you know, do you have any— was there a question that— that I did not ask you that you thought I was going to ask? 1:51:07 RB: Cannot think of it at the moment. 1:51:08 SM: Was there any final comments or– 1:51:09 RB: No, that, you know, I think a legacy of change and democracy is only going to ask, and I hope to see it again in my lifetime. 1:51:22 SM: Good. Well, thank you. I am going to— (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rosalind Baxandall Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Baxandall, Rosalyn, 1939-2015 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Feminists; Historians; Authors; Political activists--United States; Baxandall, Rosalyn, 1939-2015--Interviews Description An account of the resource Rosalyn Baxandall (1939 - 2015) was a feminist historian, activist, author and educator. She was one of the leading figures of the feminist movement in New York during the late 1960s. Baxandall received her Bachelor's degree in French at University of Wisconsin and her Master of Social Work at Columbia University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-07-29 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.21a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.21b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 111:24