91 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/806a8d94bf70b1aa5c6e0332c2bc128b.jpg fb610948dfc67c2ec5df18b5bc704a76 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/adca86a45ac2ee8abf75aafe8b50b120.mp3 96a2555f15debbf44be5513533ad128d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Daniel Berrigan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 52:31 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Date of Interview ND Biographical Text Daniel Berrigan (May 9, 1921 – April 30, 2016), born in Virginia, Minnesota, was a poet, Jesuit priest, and peace activist .He received his Bachelor's degree from the St. Andrew-on-Hudson and his Master's degree from Woodstock College. Father Berrigan publicly protested U.S. policy in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War. His defiant protests helped shape the tactics of opposition to the Vietnam War and caused his arrest in 1968. Berrigan wrote numerous volumes of poetry, including Time Without Number, which won the Lamont Poetry Prize; Prison Poems; Tulips in the Prison Yard: Selected Poems of Daniel Berrigan; and And the Risen Bread: Selected and New Poems 1957–1997. He died in the Bronx at the age of 94. Keywords 1960s; Vietnam; Vietnam War; Protests; Anti-war movement; Students; Activism; University of Virginia; Nixon; Boomers. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daniel Berrigan https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cc33a44a045a9375a12d98a6cad46f1a.jpg 854c4aa8ddb1ade16914a8c9fb7c9324 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9eef207a6d0e2fd23611421b3ce022c1.mp3 61e03e23844f18cf8299ec9125939447 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 8/7/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Burns Jr. Biographical Text John Burns Jr. is the fourth oldest of 12 children of Binghamton's former Mayor, John Burns. He lived for several years in Albany, NY, where he owned a restaurant called Downtown Johnny’s. After many years in the restaurant business, he moved to Jupiter, Florida, where he ran a real estate practice. John eventually moved back to Binghamton, where he excelled in real estate and raised all of his 3 children who attended the Binghamton School District. Now, he has 2 grandchildren, Johnny and Lincoln. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 02:04:27 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords 1960s; Mayor John Burns; Rockefeller; John F. Kennedy; PT 109; McCarthy; Cuban Missile Crisis; Robert Kennedy; Bobby Kennedy; assassination; 1968 Democratic National Convention Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: John Burns Jr. Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger Date of interview: 7 August 2019 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:00 SM: All right. Let me put you on the, on the speakerphone. Hold on. Can you hear me? 00:11 JB: Yeah. 00:11 SM: Okay, great. Yep, that comes over good. Well, first off, I want to [crosstalk], I want to thank you, Mr. Burns for agreeing to do this. I was a big fan of your dad. He was here when I was a student at Binghamton. So, but– 00:25 JB: Right-right. 00:26 SM: –but– 00:27 JB: Okay, [crosstalk] 00:28 SM: The first question, the first question I want to ask is if you could tell me a little bit about yourself growing your-your growing up years, where were you grew up, your family. Those early influences on your life. 00:41 JB: Yeah. Okay. So, you want me to start right now on that? 00:50 SM: Yes. 00:52 JB: Okay. Well, let us see. I am the fourth oldest of 12 children of John and Theresa Burns. John Burns was when I was growing up, he became- I was born in (19)51. The last day of (19)51. He-he was elected mayor in (19)57, and started his term in (19)58, what could have been (19)58 or (19)58. Anyway. So, I was [inaudible] as a young kid, he became mayor. Those were the days of urban renewal. I will get flowing here [inaudible]. Alright, so. So, growing up, you know, a lot of this, Kennedy related relates to my father and his background, and then, you know, I was I was part of it. But so anyway, so I grew up in a house back in (19)50s, early (19)60s, they paid the mayor 15,000 a year. So, we, so we were not rich, and we were not totally poor. But that was just the way it was. So-so we were Irish Catholic. My father was a was elected mayor. He followed another Democrat that had served two terms. And Binghamton at that time was two to one Republican. And so urban renewal and the and the dawn of the American highway system. That was what was going at the, in those days, early (19)60s. The, you know, they were putting a highway route 81 and 17. That is what Binghamton is the capital of two rivers, the Susquehanna and Chenango rivers and the-the two highways of 17 and 81, and now 17 I think it is getting converted to 86. So anyway, so there was, you know, there is a lot of complaining about urban renewal, you know, that they were tearing down buildings that were historic, and a lot of there is a lot of truth to that, that you know, that they were tearing down historic buildings, to replace with, you know, modern, what have you, and parking, but at the same time, there was no money in those days to restore those kinds of buildings. They did, they did keep a lot of buildings, you know, Binghamton still has a lot of nice historic buildings, but they did have to make room for multi-level parking lots, you know, new, they built a new city hall, etc., etc. But John Burns was part of that. John you know, Mayor John Burns as part of that, but he was not, you know, like the only driving force, you know, they took administration before him to get the ball rolling. So anyway, John Burns, at that time Robert Kennedy you know, as you know, President Kennedy was assassinated in (19)63. And so about I do not know, a year after that, or two years after that. Attorney General, I guess it was the former Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, started a campaign and started putting together a campaign to run for the United States Senate from New York. And I remember they called him a carpet bagger and what kinds of things but there was a lot, he was a popular guy. People loved him. And, you know, a lot of you know, came from just the Kennedy family in general. But so anyways, his-his main residence was in Alexandria, Virginia, we actually went down there once and visited at a big fundraiser they had. But anyway, so-so, as I recall, Senator Kennedy asked my father, to assist him, as maybe his upstate campaign manager, I guess you would call it, I do not know, if there was an official title. And then Mayor Wagner of New York was the you know, the downstate campaign manager, and you would see them both at different events in Albany with-with the Attorney General. So then, my father, oh no, I got to, I got to tell you. Just go back two years, I think or one year. My father ran, he was drafted at the convention to run against Rockefeller and Wilson, and the Democratic ticket was Robert Morgenthau and John Burns. And, and that was what gave him the Upstate notoriety and relationships that he developed with other mayors and executives in upstate New York, you know, Rochester, Buffalo, Albany. So, you know, because of that suicide mission of running for governor against Rockefeller, the, you know, it helped his political career. You know, notoriety in the state and downstate too, so. So, then, so Kennedy decides to run, my father is, is helping him with the upstate campaign, he travels around the state with him, and they become fast friends. And there was some synergy between them, you know, they were both all Irish, my father's 100 percent Irish family that came to the country in (18)48 famines. And-and anyway, so, you know, his great, grandfather, came from Ireland, that kind of. So, let us see. So-so they became good friends, John Burns had 12 children, and oh, was-was having 12 children during that time. And, and Kennedy had, I do not know, I think he had like, 10 or 11, or something like that. Yeah, he had 11 kids, so we had him beat on that one. Anyway, yeah that is right. So, they were, they were good friends. You know, during that period, my father, you know, we always tell a couple of stories about how my mother's home during the week, and Dad was, well, this is after the well, getting ahead of myself. So, my father tells us one story he calls up, you know, we every-every Saturday, my father would go to city hall when he was mayor into work, and he would not be you know, disturbed by appointments and things like that. So, he would go into the office and there would not be any staff there. But my mother would stop and say you are not leaving me with all these kids. You have to take the boys. So, the boys would go to city hall with Dad in the old 1800 City Hall, fabulous place. 08:48 SM: He had 11. Yes, yeah. 09:47 JB: Anyway, so we would always like you know, just run wild through you know, city council chambers and, you know, press all the buttons and that led. 09:58 SM: Yeah. 09:59 JB: So Anyway, so one day says we are there on Saturday, I listen to boys. He says, I am making a very important phone call. And no one pick up the phone. No one start pressing these buttons. Very important call. So just you know, have fun, but do not do not play with the phone. So, anyways, he is calling the residents of Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, wants to talk to him. And so, he calls and Butler, somebody answers the phone, he says, "I would like to speak to, this is Mayor John Burns of Binghamton." And so, you know, he says "hold on please" so he goes to go see Robert Kennedy, and all the sudden he hears a click on the phone. He goes, "who is that?" He goes, "Joey, is that you?" And Joey says, he says, "what?" Says, "get off this phone, you dirty rat." Joe, and Joe Kennedy says, "what?" He goes, "is this Joey Burns?" He goes, "no, this is Joe Kennedy." He goes, "Oh, I am sorry, auuuugh." 11:17 SM: [laughs] What a story! 11:18 JB: [Inaudible] Kennedy [inaudible]. So anyway, he told that quite a few times. But anyway, you know, they became good friends, they would be, you know, on the campaign trail. And, you know, he would be you know, dealing with, you know, that I do not know, if it was the Presidential- probably further down the road, you know, you know, they are, you know, you would be in the hotel room with Kennedy be in the next room taking a shower, they would be yelling back and forth about what they are doing, what is next. Anyway, so Kennedy was, and so he is, at that point, the highest elected Democratic official in New York State, because there was [inaudible] other statewide candidate or statewide officer who was left [inaudible]. He was a controller. And then you had, you know, the Republican, you know, [inaudible] Wilson, you had, Senator, I do not know why I cannot think of who the other one was but–– 12:29 SM: Was it Keating? 12:30 JB: Keating I think is the seat that was open for Kennedy. 12:33 SM: Oh okay. Very good. 12:34 JB: Yeah. And, and the other one was, I just do not remember, sorry. So-so anyway. So, Kennedy wins. Everybody is really excited. He takes over the Democratic Party. And he picks and chooses just like the governor does now who is going to be the state chairman and you know all that stuff. And so, so they generally would pick a guy from upstate New York, because it kind of ties the party together, because there is such a dichotomy between the needs, and the interests of upstate New York versus the, you know, New York City area. So-so anyways, I do not know if that [inaudible], but there is different ventures. So-so John Burns is Kennedy's choice, he becomes the democratic state chairman. And that changes our lives in Binghamton because he retires as mayor, you know he gives up his mayoral seat. And then they-they, they did not elect, they just voted an appointment for a year. They appointed my Uncle Bill Burns, which Bill looks like a little nepotism there, but I do not know. Anyway. So-so turns out that Kennedy-Kennedy, becomes the state chair- or John Burns becomes a state chairman and he now, or even before that was wearing his PT-109 [inaudible] And I do not know, did you ever hear about that? 14:18 SM: No, I did not hear about that. 14:22 JB: That was the sign that you were part of the Kennedy organization, is if you had a PT-109 plug on your side. 14:32 SM: Right, because of Jack, yeah. 14:35 JB: They came from-from the President Kennedy's election, but you know, they carried over. I just gave mine to my brother Joe. So anyway, I found one in New York in a Flea Market, a real one. It was like, "Oh my God, this guy has no idea what I have got in my hand," you know. So, anyway- 15:03 SM: What happened to your dad's? What happened to your dad's? 15:07 JB: One of my brothers probably stole it. I think that he has it, but when my parents died, it was like, you know a free for all. You know, I plan on taking this and I will walk into an apartment, you know, or at someone's house or my sister's houses and I will see like, some, you know, painting that they cherished, you know, that they get, I was the executor of the estate, what was she doing with painting on the wall. 15:41 SM: I was I was in your mom and dad's apartment when I interviewed them. 15:47 JB: Yeah, yeah. So those are the pictures. Yeah, but they all abscond. Anyway, let us see. So- so-so yeah, so dad, you know, he explained to us about PT-109 boat. But so, he, you know, developed, his world changed. You know, he went from a little guy in Binghamton, New York to the Democratic state general with a with a hotel suite upstairs in the Dryden East Hotel. Down in the basement was the offices that democratic state committee and the democratic state committee had a, or the-the Democratic Chairman, there were different rules back then. And there was a different power structure back then. And a lot of that was rectified. But came up when, you know, McCarthy was running for president and then McGovern's people came the next time, and they changed the rules of the state of national convention, the chairman had the lion's share of the, of the delegate assignments, you know, they had, they only elected, you know, it was it was more of a, you know, it was not a majority of the, of the delegates elected, you know, in the local elections, the chairman would hand out these things. So, that being said, you know, like the McCarthys and Humphreys, and these guys, you know, they came calling because after Kennedy died, you know, they want they knew, who had all the delegates, it was the chairman. McCarthy did a great job of getting people elected and their mailing, you know, we had to jump them way ahead, but. 17:58 SM: Right. 17:59 JB: You know, their mailing of letters, you know, requesting the state chairman to support McCarthy, even before, even before Kennedy died. But once he died, you know, we in my house we would receive, you know, hip height, bundles of letters from everywhere. And, you know, all, you know, reaching out, and requesting that, John Burns support McCarthy, I will get back to that. So, alright, so, so now, Kennedy, Kennedy is the United States Senator. And he is very popular as far as, as far as our lives are, we loved the guy. And we were like all, we were all, you know, really paying attention to politics. And really, you know, in it, you know. Of course, you know, my father would come home on weekends and he would be in New York most of the week, but he did have offices here, the old [inaudible] at 50 Front street, now there is a new apartment building down there. That was where the offices were for Binghamton, for the state chairman. And then and then we our lives changed in that you know, we were, we would be in New York a lot. We would go to a lot of the big dinners and, and, you know, and it was, it was a lot of notoriety of, you know, this Irish guy Burns with his 12 kids, you know. And when we were when he was campaigning for lieutenant governor, prior to Kennedy's, Kennedy's, in fact, that was before (19)6- there must have been (19)62 I think, because that was before President Kennedy died. We have, here is an interesting note. When Morgenthau Burns ticket was running, and they were running as Rockstar, during that time, was the was the Russian missile crisis. You know- 20:20 SM: [Inaudible] yes. 20:20 JB: –Jeff Kennedy thing, you know, Cuban Mission, Cuban Missile Crisis. And-and during that time, it was in the fall or in the summer, and they were campaigning Burns, and Morgenthau and Burns were campaigning. And this is this is, we have a picture of the president, Robert Morgenthau and, and John Burns. 20:46 SM: Wow. 20:47 JB: And that picture, like it is a, it is a palm card. You know, I have it. In fact, I will send you a picture of it. 20:55 SM: Yes. 20:55 JB: So, understand, at that time, when they were in this motorcade, and they were in New York, and they were campaigning with the president United States. If you have watched the movie 13 days [crosstalk] 21:14 SM: Yes, I saw it, yes, I did. 21:16 JB: During that movie, there was a point where there was the big showdown, and his advisors in the White House that look, you got to go out, you know, people need to see you. You got to go out and act normal and be seen and give confidence and stuff, right. So that is where he went. In that picture of Morgenthau, Kennedy Morgenthau and Burns, was during the Cuban Missile Crisis. 21:47 SM: Oh my gosh. 21:49 JB: Yeah, yep. That is a fact. And then, so I had this, I used to have this picture of it with these captions. And [inaudible] but captured over-over Morgenthau says, "We are going to get our ass kicked." And then over Burns it said, "What am I doing here?" And then under- over Kennedy, it said, "We are all going to die." 22:18 SM: [laughs] Well that is not funny, but you know. 22:20 JB: Yeah, right. So anyway, so-so the, so that that was an interesting point in time. 22:30 SM: How did- 22:34 JB: Then I was gone for I went to Ireland with my brother Patrick. We went to Newbridge College. The county [inaudible] there is a boys boarding school of Dominican monks. My father was, became friendly with Paul O'Dwyer and a couple of these Irish born fellows that the guy that owned all the Blarney stones. You know, Paul O'Dwyer? 23:01 SM: Oh, yes, I do. Yeah, that white hair. Yeah. That white hair and- 23:05 JB: Yeah. 23:05 SM: Yep. 23:06 JB: Yeah. Those-those eyebrows. 23:07 SM: Yes. 23:08 JB: Those white eyebrows. 23:08 SM: Yes. 23:10 JB: Yeah. His brother was the president city council in New York too. So anyway, and Paul O'Dwyer, Paul O'Dwyer defended the Ayatollah Khomeini. Everybody deserves to have a lawyer. 23:22 SM: My God, I did not know that either. Wow! 23:26 JB: Yeah, he represented Khomeini. But anyway, he also ran for Senate you know after Kennedy was done. Anyway, so where are we so it is the (19)60s. The President has gone. And Senator Robert F. Kennedy and then, then the Presidential thing starts going, you know, like, the Johnson, he is running for reelection, gets, he gets reelected, did not he? 24:06 SM: Yes, he did, he got- 24:07 JB: Oh, no, he gets elected. 24:08 SM: He got elec- Johnson got, in (19)64 he won big and then he withdrew before the next one. 24:16 JB: Yes, yes. And when he withdrew, you know, they were campaigning, and Dad was, you know, like, winning against [inaudible]. When Kennedy announced for that he was going to run against a sitting Democratic president as the United States senator, and that United States senator, that was a powerful-powerful thing. And, and, you know, most political people in the country, you know, thought this guy was just committing political suicide here. He was running against a sitting president, Democrat, and they did not think they would do that well. I-I think, I do not know, you might know better than me. But so, when he announced, he had to show strength, he had to show where there was support and things like that. And the first place he went after announcing was to a testimonial dinner for John Burns and banks in New York. 25:24 SM: I did not know that either. 25:25 JB: It was Binghamton. 25:26 SM: Oh, wow. 25:28 JB: He came to Binghamton. And because you know it, first, you got to show that your-your Democratic Chairman in the state, you are from is for you, and that he is showing up with people that are Kennedy people, you know, there was plenty of people that were not Kennedy people in this state. But-but, you know, they, you know, they knew how to, you know, build momentum, and you know, how to show support. 25:55 SM: Was there any pressure with- 25:57 JB: Dinner for Dad, and then they had a dinner for Kennedy here. But I think it was. I do not know what the data that was, but I have the programs for both. 26:09 SM: Oh, my gosh. 26:10 JB: And let us see. So-so Kennedy started campaigning, and going around the country and doing his thing. And it was, you know, it was tough. McCarthy was running against them. Or no. He-he challenged McCarthy. 26:30 SM: Yeah. 26:31 JB: That would be- yeah. 26:33 SM: I interviewed Senator McCarthy, my very first person I interviewed back in (19)96. 26:38 JB: Wow. 26:39 SM: And when I asked the question about Bobby, you could see he was still upset even though Bobby is long gone. And, and he said, he said, "Read it in my book." Because– 26:53 JB: Oh, wow. 26:53 SM: –McCarthy had written. Yeah, I know, there was some there was some tension going on. And also, at the (19)68 convention after Bobby had been killed. And I got questions I want to ask you about LA and all the other things. But McCarthy disappeared at that, at that convention. I mean, he-he just like, why did, he just everything, when Bobby died, it seemed like he died. I mean, it was just like, I could not understand it. 27:20 JB: Well, he was still around. I mean, he was still running, in fact my father told me when we were getting all those letters and all that thing that I was like, asking my dad about like, "What about this, what about that?" And he said- you know, I might have a video of me asking him this stuff. But anyway, he said that. He said, he says, you know, he said, "I wanted to support McCarthy. You know, like what he represented, and his, you know, level of integrity, you know, to do what he was doing and everything" he says, "I wanted nothing more than to support Joe McCarthy. He said, you know, he says he was being solicited by, you know Hubert Humphrey was like, hot on the trail. They meet in restaurants and help you make a big deal and chairman and blah, blah, blah. But anyway. So, he said that McCarthy came to his office, and they sat down. And he said that, you know, the guy just did not light a fire. He was very, you know, kind of like a professor. 28:38 SM: Yes. 28:39 JB: We really liked your support. And he was not like a, you know, you know, he just lost Bobby Kennedy. Kennedy had a fire in his belly. And, you know, he was ready to go, you know. 28:52 SM: Right. 28:52 JB: And he just, you know, was not exciting. He thought, you know, he says "I got a lot, I had a lot of on the line at that point, and if I backed the guy that you know, was going to lose and just did not have any excitement to him," he said, you know, "I want to get first as well." And so anyway, he said he wanted his support but he said and, and he, John Burns, you know, they got assigned all these Kennedy chair- all these Kennedy delegates. A lot of them were elected, and a lot of them got appointed, and all that. And then, of course, the McCarthyites, you know, are worse, you know, they are at the other end of this left spectrum you know. And kind of like these days, you know, and so, you know, they are all willing to go, you know, like commit suicide, you know, harry carry over, you know, I always say that any candidate that can-can get enough con- political contributions to get elected president, I would not vote for. You know what I mean? I do not mean that. But I make it as, you know, a joke. Like, you know, anybody that did not raise enough money to get elected I would support, you know, it is like, gradual marketing, where you have me as member of their club I would not join. But anyway, so, where are we? So. 30:39 SM: To Bobby's running. 30:40 JB: [Inaudible] talking about, you know, running for president, he declares his candidacy. Everybody is just very excited. You know like, who is going to be next with the Burns family, I mean you know. That would have been really good for us on a political level, you know, maybe Washington or maybe Irish Ambassador or [crosstalk]. And when I was this, this is kind of an interesting little sidebar, when I was a student at Newbridge College in a secondary school, you know, it was high school in Ireland. My father came to visit. And Aer Lingus has got word of it. And at that time, Pan Am was trying to get into Ireland, be able to fly into Ireland. And I think that the Irish were resisting it or something. I do not know the exact, you know, stuff what was going on, but, but I know Aer Lingus is wanting to cozy up to Burns because they think he had some kind of power. You know, it was a national thing that the United States Senate would vote on. So anyway, Kennedy's support. So, when he came over to visit at Easter time that he like, you know, they had him on the front page of Irish Independent or, you know, the government paper. And you know, him holding us some shamrocks and his hand, somebody greeting them from either Aer Lingus or whatever. And then we went to Phoenix Park is where the, I think Ambassador lived. And we went to an event there and then the Secretary of the Interior, whatever his title is in Ireland, they brought him to dinner and they were really floozing him. We traveled around the country. We went to a hotel, they would have, we would walk into the lobby of a hotel, they have all these flowers, champagne bottles, or champagne. Big deal. So, my father is trying to tell him "okay," you know, "I do not really, you know, I do not really have any say in this matter." But, uh, you know, I mean, truth be said, I mean, he probably did have some influence on it. And he probably, you know, would have, you know, Kennedy smile or something, you know what I mean, but I do not think would have had any real effect changing some national law. 33:37 SM: How long were you? 33:38 JB: But anyway. 33:38 SM: How long were you a student over there? How many years? 33:41 JB: I only stayed, I only stayed a year. My brother Pat- I did not want to go back because I was I was too homesick. I was like 14 years old. And but my brother Patrick, two years older than I, went back another year and graduated from the school. And, and that was why well, that was why it was a funeral in the wake. Patrick was not there because he was in Ireland. 34:07 SM: Right. You duck talking about the- could you talk about that a little more about that year (19)68. Your dad was obviously, you know, vowed with, that whole year and then put it put prospectively your dad's thoughts on that year, and of course, Bobby's death and everything. 34:32 JB: Yeah. So, Bobby Kennedy died on June 6th. And so, when he died, you know, that just took the wind out of ourselves. I mean, everybody was crushed. And you know, what do you do, where do you go? You know, who is going to do what. And, and so, so let us see. So, I mean, you know, a lot of things were already scheduled set up, you know, Democratic Convention, all that stuff. And the delegates, you know, the primaries where they elect delegates. And so, so a lot of things were already done, Kennedy died. And they have to do the funeral, the wake and the funeral in New York. So anyway, we go to the we go to the event, we go to the wake. My father has gone, you know, in meetings most of the time, but, you know, we still had dinner and such. So, so we go to the wake, couple of my brothers, and a fella that was one of my close friends growing up. He was, he was like an adopted member of the family because his house was so far away from school and we lived right down the street. So, he lived in the third floor with us most of the time. And, Matt Ryan is his name, he later became the mayor of Binghamton. Anyway, so, so there was this moment, the way you know, we were, you know, then just thousands and thousands of people are coming in. And so, but they would switch out what did they call it? Ushers, now. We were not ushers, we were, you know, we would stand at the, at the casket. We were- now I cannot think of the term. 36:58 SM: Pallbearers? 37:00 JB: No, not pallbearers. We were guards, we were you know, well it will come to me in a second. So-so we stood, you know, and we stood I think it was like 15 minutes or 20 minutes or something after at the casket. And pall- not pallbearers, shit, what is it? Anyway, so we stood there for a while. And, and, you know, people would come, you know, we would be standing back from the casket or by, you know, a couple of feet there. Then, you know, people would walk to the casket and keep, you know, maybe touch the casket or something, walk by. And so, while we were there, Mrs. Martin Luther King, and her entourage, like Abernathy, you know, whoever else? 38:03 SM: Andrew Young? 38:04 JB: But, uh. 38:04 SM: Yeah. 38:05 JB: What is that? 38:06 SM: Andrew Young, was he part of? 38:08 JB: Yeah, I mean I am sure [inaudible] Andrew Young. But anyway, they came in and walked past us, you know, and that was another significant kind of poignant moment. That, you know, these are my, these are my- I do not know. So anyways, so they come by, and the last time that she had seen Bobby Kennedy, was Bobby Kennedy went to see her immediately, you know, after her husband was assassinated. 38:44 SM: Yes-yes. 38:46 JB: And, and so now she was standing there, you know, with his dead body. And yeah, it was just unbelievable. What was going on then, you know. And I call it my Forrest Gump moments. Because you are like [inaudible]. 39:08 SM: Yes, you are right. 39:09 JB: So, I was, you know, I was, I was at these-these places, you know, like, it is like, wow. So, anyway, you know, we were there for that. And then the next day was the funeral. And I went, got a ticket for the funeral. I still have this ticket. And there is a stamp on it. That said train. And, and that was my pass onto the funeral train. I was on the train from New York to Washington where all the thousands and thousands of people were there, you know, and another Forrest Gump moment. And- 39:48 SM: Now it is not just you and your dad or was it other members of your family? 39:52 JB: I think [sighs] I think it was me I think it was me. And they put me in the, you know, the news car, you know, reporters and typers, all that stuff. And then, my mom and dad were up front in another car. 40:18 SM: Right. 40:21 JB: Anyway, on that, you know on that train ride Ethel Kennedy and her son, I think it was Joe. They came through, thanked everybody for coming in. That is right, I thought. And I had actually met them before, at their house, McLean. But you know, people they do not really there is so many people that they meet, you cannot expect they know. So anyway, I was on the train, and then I caught up with my parents when [inaudible] when we got there, and we went to the burial. And it was significant. He was a significant guy, you know, just an amazing guy [crosstalk]. 41:15 SM: Now I want to ask you, how old were you when the funeral was happening? 41:20 JB: 17. 41:21 SM: What- you were a 17-year-old, you know, you got a- 41:25 JB: What year is this, (19)56, right? 41:27 SM: No, it was (19)68. (19)68, and I was born in (19)51. Yep, so I am always amazed. What- you, I can imagine what is going through your dad being a close friend of his, but you are the son. I mean, what can you reflect upon what you are going through mentally? You know, you are a 17-year-old person and you are looking up to a pound- you got dad who you are very proud of, and you have got a person that he works with and for, who he is very, you are very proud of, and then all of a sudden, he is gone. 42:05 JB: Yeah, it was, it was horrible. You know, that night that day. You know, the, you know, we were also you know, we were glued to the TV sets when-when the for the for the Oregon- is it the Oregon primary? 42:30 SM: Yeah, the Oregon- 42:30 JB: Then they came down to Cal- no, they were going to Oregon next, I think. He won California, right? 42:37 SM: Yes, he did. 42:39 JB: Yeah, he won California then the next primary, which he was on his way to having enough delegates, you know, he had a major shot there. I do not think anybody was going to stop him then. You know, so our, our segment, it was not just, you know, benefiting, you know, financially or anything else, the Burns family. It was the, the political ideals and the leadership of-of, of this guy. 43:23 SM: Yeah. 43:23 JB: But, you know, that was, you know, that was, you know, it was so dynamic and, you know, we were all, you know, [crosstalk] wrapped up in it. You know, we were, we believe we were believers, you know what I mean? 43:41 SM: Well– 43:41 JB: We believed in America, and helping and helping people, integration issues, you know, the things that he worked on, and he believed and the Viet- I mean the Vietnam War, we were all, you know, we were all you know, on board with, you know, with all of those things. And, you know, we were the young ones really, you know we were 17, younger. 44:14 SM: Were you in Los Angeles, were you and your dad in Los Angeles? 44:18 JB: Now we were on, we were at 123 Leroy Street, watching the TV. And then I went to bed. And Matt Ryan was watching TV down in the living room with somebody, couple of the kids. And then he got shot, and Matt woke me up and told me, and then we went to [inaudible] watch TV and it was, he was gone. Bam-bam, bam. 44:44 SM: You know, it was really, you probably know when Bobby attended the funeral for, at Ebenezer Baptist Church. He was sitting on the left side of the church and he was made the front cover of a magazine because the sun was coming through the side window. And that was focusing on him. And that was during the funeral of Dr. King– 45:05 JB: Wow. 45:05 SM: -and he had tears in his eyes to during that, in that picture and, and one of the things that, and I like your comment on this, earlier in Bobby's career, he was considered a pretty tough cookie, you know, he was with his brother on those, those committees against some of those, I guess they are [crosstalk] those guys and so, but then all of a sudden we see in (19)66, (19)65. And when he became senator, this kind of an evolution of a really compassionate person who deeply cared about people who were, you know, especially going down south and all the other things. And so, he-he kind of evolved, you know, into someone that everybody really liked. So that is another thing too. So. 46:00 JB: I got a letter from him. I am sure. I am sure he signed it, but I doubt very much that he wrote it. But I got a letter, I was coming out of the classroom in Ireland, we were coming out of lunch, and I was walking across the courtyard, you know, one day we got in the mail, you know, the envelope says "United States Senate." And so, I open it up, and it is a personal letter from-from Senator Kennedy. 46:29 SM: Oh, wow. 46:30 JB: Yeah, it said, it said, I will tell you exactly what it said. You have to give me a second. Ah, it is someplace in the house, 46:52 SM: Okay. [crosstalk] All right. 46:53 JB: But anyways, it says that, you know, that your dad says, that you are in school in Ireland, and blah-blah, blah. And, you know, working hard, it was an encouragement letter because I was complaining about being there, and I did not want to be there anymore [laughs]. So, he says, "Ahhh" and he sends me a letter from Senator Kennedy. So [inaudible] I mean, Kennedy was like, you know, like, you would see a picture of Jesus on one wall in Ireland and a picture of President Kennedy and the other. 47:32 SM: Yes, yes, definitely. 47:34 JB: But anyway, so yeah, that is in my office. But anyway, so-so, I got this, I am walking across the courtyard. And one kid looked at it, and he goes, "That is not real signature. [Inaudible] senator drop of rain." But gets the signature and smeared the ink. Just the slightest bit and I go, "Ah, it is a real signature." And anyway, so where were we, we were talking about something. 48:10 SM: Yeah, I want to ask you what-what when you were in school here back in the Binghamton area and not over in Ireland, and you were the son of the mayor of, mayor of Binghamton, and then you were the son of the person who is kind of the chair of the upstate Democratic Party and then you were friends with Bobby did that, did that put pressure on you at school? When-when people, "Oh you think you are a big shot or." 48:37 JB: Oh [crosstalk] 48:37 SM: I was curious, what how did it affect you? 48:41 JB: Yeah, people well you know, there is always going to be a percentage of people in life that if you have any level of success or notoriety they are not going to like it. 48:56 SM: Right. 48:57 JB: And then there is the Republican Party you know what I mean, so you know they you know. There was a lot of Repub- there was two to one Republican when he was first elected, I mean it is a Democratic city now but- 49:10 SM: Right. 49:10 JB: -but they would always be, you know, kind of naysayer’s type of thing. And let me make sure, can I take a break here for a second? x49:31 SM: Yes. 49:31 JB: I have to use the restroom really quick, hold on. 49:33 SM: Yep-yep. 49:34 JB: I am going to put you on mute. 49:35 SM: Yep, very good. [audio cuts] Yep, we are on. We are on. 49:44 JB: Okay, so anyway, shit you were back at... Oh, yeah, you were asking me about you know, how to people treat you and stuff like that. 49:55 SM: Right. 49:56 JB: You know, in Binghamton, a lot of people, you know, my age, you know, they were not, they did not have a level of political awareness, like we did. You know, because we were, you know, we were surrounded by it. You know, there would be an article once in a while about the Burns kids or something, you know, because that was kind of like a notoriety, you know, of having, you know, being the mayor and having 12 kids, you know, it was the 12 kids’ thing. But, you know, there was always some, you know, embarrassing moment or somebody you know, got in trouble or something it was like, you know, you were like, defending, or, you know, stopping, it was a lot of people. 50:51 SM: Right. [crosstalk] Go ahead. 50:57 JB: No, go ahead. 50:58 SM: I was going to ask a question, and before we get into some other questions, you know. Bobby's death and Dr. King's death and Jack's death and the constant impact and, you know, shock-shock, shock-shock, which shocked so many Americans in the (19)60s, this is like the (19)60s and (19)68, in particular were the, what happened at the Democratic Convention. It– 51:21 JB: Oh yeah. 51:22 SM: Yeah, it is, um, I guess- 51:24 JB: I was at, I was at the convention too. 51:27 SM: Yeah, what did you think of that convention? 51:31 JB: Well, I mean, that was one of the best night ever spent. So-so there was the, you know, the Kennedy camp and the McCarthy camp, and the Hubert Humphrey camp kind of thing. You know, Burns was trying to deliver the, you know, the Kennedy stuff to Humphrey I think. And, you know, so there was, it was it was the Democratic Party in New York. I mean, they were all at each other's throats all the time and it was. 52:13 SM: Yeah, well, that connect convention with all the protests going on outside. 52:18 JB: Yeah. 52:18 SM: Yeah. And the– 52:19 JB: Yeah, they sent me they sent me to go get some credentials, because that was the first year it was ever real security, you know, you had to have, you know, this thing around your neck, a plastic encased. But it still did not have a picture ID, it was just, you know. It was like a pass to get in. I do not think it had a picture ID because I was using other people's stuff, and they were letting me in, you know. 52:52 SM: Well that convention with what was going on outside and they arrested some of the reporters inside. I think it was Dan- I think Dan Rather got arrested. I think it was John Chancellor got arrested. 53:04 JB: I was watching. I was up in the you know, alternate stand there. And I was watching Dan Rather, you know, fighting with these guys when he got arrested. 53:17 SM: Well, I think– 53:17 JB: And there was a guy I gave my seat to from Georgia, Julian Bond. 53:28 SM: Oh, yeah. 53:29 JB: I mean that was the- that was when Julian Bond became a national figure. That convention. 53:37 SM: [Inaudible]? 53:38 JB: I mean, as far as I never heard of him before, and all of a sudden, I see him a lot after that. 53:43 SM: Why-why would what why did Julian become a national figure from that convention? 53:48 JB: I am not sure. I think that he spoke. I think he gave a speech. I think he was I do not know if he was a congressional representative. But he was definitely a spokesperson for the you know, for the Black movement, the country. And but he was an elected official have some sort, I just do not remember. [crosstalk] Yeah, he is a cool guy, you know. Good speaker, have a good kind of presence, you know, very staid. 54:29 SM: Yes. 54:29 JB: Yes, you know. 54:31 SM: I interviewed him. 54:34 JB: Oh, did you? 54:34 SM: Yeah, I interviewed him down in America, American University. Before he asked me to go into his class to speak on oral history interviewing [laughs]. So no kidding, no kidding. And then Julian came, I brought him to West Chester University to speak. And, of course, he passed away pretty fast a couple of years back. Finally, we get we were able to get the tape sent to him, sent to his wife for the final okay. Well, one thing I want to ask you because you were a 17-year-old and I was I am was a 21-year-old, I think at that particular time. And I would be curious, you know, I asked this question to your father too, I believe is that the whole issue of elected leaders and trust in elected leaders and during the (19)60s too because of the Vietnam War, and the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution which a lot of people thought it was really a farce. It was just a way to get involved in the Vietnam conflict. And so people started to have a lack of trust in some of the leaders because they felt leaders were lying to them. And then we have the deaths of Dr. King and Bobby Kennedy and-and then what we saw the Democratic Convention, which is and you are a 17-year-old, and you have got other brothers and sisters that are probably what, they are seeing all this stuff and-and of course your father's probably even though he is very involved in politics is wondering probably how it is affecting the kids. His kids, I just want to know, did you start not having trust in the elected leaders or were you part of that or because you have your father, you always continued to have trust in elected leaders? 56:18 JB: Well, I-I continue to an interest in politics but you know. But there was nobody taking the place of Bobby Kennedy you know what I mean, there was no, like Hubert Humphrey. He was not ringing anybody's bell, you know. And you know, who's next and obviously [inaudible] Republican. And then we started you know, I was coming of an age where I was studying and keeping my eye on like, you know, what is this you know, like if you look at, if you look at a pattern of organized, for organized [inaudible] you know, to ruin the image of someone to take the part of, Republicans are, you know, what came next? Okay. You had like Nixon, McGovern and all, let us see. So. 57:44 SM: Yeah Nixon and then you- 57:45 JB: So, Humphrey lost, Humphrey lost, and then who won? Nixon. 57:51 SM: Yeah. Nixon and Ford and Ford took over after-after Watergate, during Watergate. 58:00 JB: Yeah, Ford and then, but the next president, the next Democratic president was Carter. 58:07 SM: Yes. 58:08 JB: Was it? 58:08 SM: Yes it was. 58:09 JB: And then Carter, like I never noticed it when there was a Republican President, that there was a, you know, a chorus, an organized effort to-to, you know, to- trying to think of the word- but, you know, to, I never noticed that the Democrats do it to the Republicans. And then but then Carter became president, then they did everything they could possibly do to discredit this guy. And maybe even I mean, if I am not mistaken, they even had the Ayatollah Khomeini or-or whoever it was release the hostages but hold off. 58:55 SM: Yes. 58:57 JB: Until Carter was out of office. 58:58 SM: Until Reagan came in, yeah. Until Ronald Reagan came in. That was [crosstalk]. Yeah, I agree. 59:06 JB: [Inaudible] patriotic. 59:08 SM: Yeah, well after the death of Bobby, did your dad ever sit down with the family and talk? Just amongst the family? 59:18 JB: He would talk, yeah. Yeah, he would talk. 59:22 SM: Yeah cause I, you know, sometimes the father's magic moment is when he can get all the kids together after a tragedy and, and see how they are doing, how they are feeling, you know, their thoughts and certainly the thoughts of their father. 59:36 JB: Yeah, and it was more of a with, you know, as a father, he was more of an individual or just a few people at a time guy, okay. He might, you might be with the girls, you know, like, three other girls or five, you know, maybe all five of them. Or it would be me and Patrick and Joe or, you know different, different groups and he would, you know, or we would ride in New York with him, you know. And then, you know, going to New York, he had lots of time to talk to you, tell you what he thought. 1:00:14 SM: Did the Burns family stay, continue to stay in touch with the Kennedy fam- family after Bobby was buried? 1:00:23 JB: With, yeah, I mean, we did not as kids. I mean, I, you know, I had Bobby Jr. when I was County Chairman here, two very chaotic years. He spoke in an event that we had, we asked him to speak, and he did. And, and, but, you know, that was the only, my only real and why I cannot really think of it but. But, um, but Teddy Kennedy was, Teddy Kennedy would communicate with my father all the time. My father was, you know, he was on a couple of boards first, and, you know, Robert F. Kennedy foundations or something. 1:01:10 SM: Right. 1:01:11 JB: And they talked with Ethel, you know, Ethel and [inaudible] and he was like, you know, it was still part of the gang, you know. 1:01:22 SM: Is your becom- 1:01:22 JB: But, um. 1:01:23 SM: -is your becoming a leader in the area of real estate, and is there a, is there somehow a link between what you are doing now and what and, you know, what, what transpired in the (19)60s and (19)70s, you went into politics, obviously. But, you– 1:01:43 JB: Well, I did not really, I- when I came back from Florida, I had moved to, well I was kind of associated in politics a little bit, but I got in the restaurant business. I started, you know, working in restaurants, in the (19)70s. And then, my father, my father had become commissioner of water supply in New York. He was, he helped John Lindsay when Lindsay became a Democrat. And there is a picture in the New York Times my father handing his [inaudible] like a little clip that you put on your lapel or something, right, like a donkey, you know. [Inaudible] but Lindsay was still mayor at the time. And then Lindsey ran for president. And they, you know, my dad was a political adviser to him and that presidential campaign. And so, you know, it did not, you know, did not get any traction, he bowed out. And at that point, Lindsay appointed my father, commissioner of water supply of New York. And, and then he was the last commissioner of water supply in New York, because if you do not know, it is like a patronage to [inaudible] campaign. You know, he, he had an- a nice office someplace that did him like 30,000 a year. So, it was just kind of a supplemental, supplemental [inaudible] thing. And then he got a car and a chauffeur. Anyway, Governor Kerry eliminated that position when, you know that it was in the works. They eliminated the position. And the next day he appointed my father, as his upstate reelection campaign manager. 1:03:54 SM: Wow. 1:03:55 JB: Or campaign manager, I do not know which I do not know. But, so after the election, because, you know, he was he was not very liked upstate. So, you know, you got to get some support. So, anyway, so after he was reelected, he appointed my father. The appointments officer to the governor, he appointed all-all [inaudible] all state jobs, went to him. So, you know, so he just became, you know, like a guy on the second floor, of the capitol and the governor's, you know, floor, and you know, had a big staff and all kinds of interaction with everybody. And at that time, I left "What is Your Beef" in Binghamton and I opened up a restaurant in Albany, called "Downtown Johnny's." It was a block down the street from-from the governor's mansion, the cathedral and next to that is the governor's mansion. So, you know, they all used to come down. And when he had come into town, he had come to my place because that was where his kids were. And the Senate, the, you know, the, the assembly, you know, they all hung out there all the time. When, when his announcement came out for, you know, marrying this woman from Chicago, this Greek woman, the first place he came with his entourage was Downtown Johnny's. 1:05:35 SM: Wow. 1:05:36 JB: Like I was on the front page of The New York Times, Daily News, the post, there is an article about Downtown Johnny's and it was great. [Inaudible] 1:05:47 SM: Is that restaurant still there? 1:05:50 JB: Well, it is a different name now. 1:05:52 SM: Okay. 1:05:55 JB: I lasted a few years, and then I got out. And so anyways, that was a really exciting time. And I got to know you know, a lot of people back then, you know, a lot of people. And all those guys, all the underlings. You know, the governor’s aides and people like that, they are all the, they are all the leaders now. You know, the big shots, it is funny to watch. You know, I go back there once in a while. I go, "Wow, man, you are a judge," you know, "I used to smoke pot with you." 1:06:32 SM: [laughs] There is two things in connection with Bobby's funeral again, or is I would like you, I know you are on the train. And you know, there is the on YouTube, they show the train. And the and all the people along the railroad stops and everything. You were seeing these people when you were seeing all colors, all backgrounds. 1:06:54 JB: Thousands. 1:06:54 SM: Thousands. What, what did that say about America? And what does that say about Bobby? 1:07:03 JB: Yeah, and what did it say about Blacks? Because there was predominantly Black people, were at those train tracks, I thought. You know, I watched that video, I do not I do not see that. But my, my it was hitting me when I was watching it, wow. But-but it was everybody, of they were all there. 1:07:28 SM: It when you, when you think of that speech that Bobby gave the night that Dr. King died, I think it is one of the greatest speeches in history of, I have studied speech. That was off the cuff. 1:07:43 JB: Yeah. Oh, yeah. He was brilliant. 1:07:46 SM: And he did not know and you know, people, there were protests and you know, people were tearing up cities and everything else and he did not know how in Indianapolis how people were going to react and boy. 1:07:57 JB: Right. 1:07:58 SM: Talk about the magic moment, oh my gosh. 1:08:01 JB: Yeah. Fearless and brilliant, you know. 1:08:04 SM: Yeah, it is just and I, I go to Arlington and we all see it, some of the words that he used at that event at, that are right below where the cross is. And it is just it is really passionate. And also, the Teddy's speech was very, I thought it was very well done too and. 1:08:25 JB: During the funeral, you mean? 1:08:27 SM: Yeah, that some men see things as they are and ask, "Why." Why, and Bobby sees things that never were and says, "Why not?" I thought, you know, and he used those words all the time. Bobby, Bobby did. 1:08:43 JB: Yeah. He was a he was a great one for quoting, you know, poetry or– 1:08:50 SM: Yep. 1:08:50 JB: Greek, an ancient Greek or, you know, he is just [inaudible] 1:08:58 SM: Oh yeah, a good right-hand man, for sure. I have some, I have some [crosstalk] I have some couple general questions just about the (19)60s. So, when you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? 1:09:17 JB: Really you know, just those days those days of turmoil, Vietnam and Vietnam, Bobby Kennedy, it was a big one was the Kent State. 1:09:37 SM: Killings. Yeah, (19)70. That leads right in here. Is there one particular event that stands out for you beyond Bobby's death? 1:09:57 JB: Politically? 1:09:58 SM: Yes, politically or tragedy or politically, socially. 1:10:11 JB: I do not know, I mean, we are just talking about so much I cannot, you know like what is popping into my head is like what we are talking. But, you know, I would say that I, not an event but an awakening or an awareness of how-how the world really works in in, you know how power, you know, goes in Washington and-and places. Like, well, what was really, what was Vietnam really about? What was, you know, what are the motivations of, you know, there is so much corruption and money-making schemes and laws that that benefit. I mean it has gotten so much worse now that, you know, I mean Donald Trump is president United States. And that alone is the craziest thing that, you know, he is out of his mind. 1:11:30 SM: I agree. 1:11:33 JB: All these money investments. You know, like Vietnam, and, and a lot of these other third world countries that we were theoretically trying to help, you know, we were, we were not really doing that, you know, we really had some other agenda, we were not trying to help the people of Vietnam. Just a second [coughs]. I do not think and if you look at there is a book, it is a real simple little book, but it is written by a guy that used to be, it is called The Confessions or The Diary or something of Economic Hit Man [Confessions of an Economic Hit Man by John Perkins]. It is about United States going into third world countries, and lending them money and making them dependent on us. And you know, creating, creating business, for American businesses by you know, building a power plant, that it is really only going to benefit like the royal family of Timbuktu or something. And in the people, the indigenous people, wherever it is all displaced or sent into cities, they have no cultural, you know, understanding of any other. And it is all for, you know, some company in the United States that builds [inaudible] companies. 1:13:15 SM: Right. 1:13:16 JB: And they need electricity, I do not know, do they? You know. Anyways, I just do not know. You know, I just I just and now I am worried about the far left, you know, because they are uncompromising. They are never going to win. 1:13:40 SM: You mean Bernie Sanders and that group? 1:13:42 JB: Yeah, Bernie Sanders. And what is her name? The Bronx. 1:13:48 SM: Yeah, the four young women are in Congress now. [laughs] 1:13:52 JB: Yeah. And, you know, my sister is in Ithaca. I just see everybody, you know, like, it is, like, for example, George, George W. Bush would never have been elected president if it was not for the far left. Because they voted for what is his name that, you know the tall thin guy, what his name uh? 1:14:24 SM: I mean, you are talking about- 1:14:26 JB: Third party candidate in that presidential election. 1:14:28 SM: Yeah-yeah. The lawyer, Ralph Nader. 1:14:35 JB: Ralph Nader. 1:14:36 SM: You are right. 1:14:37 JB: Ralph Nader elected George Bush. 1:14:41 SM: Yep. 1:14:42 JB: He did not. They voted for him, the far left voted for him. And they said, "They are all just as bad as the other." No, they are not. And then that they voted against Hillary Clinton. Sorry. Hillary Clinton would have been a million times better Then Trump, or million times better than whoever the hell they want, I think. Because, she really, she understands policy, she understands negotiation. She knows how the world works. And you cannot be a person who, you know, you just cannot do it. It does not work. I am not a believer. You have to be able to negotiate. 1:15:23 SM: In your, in your, [crosstalk] in your view, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? 1:15:33 JB: I would say the (19)60s ended in (19)73. After McGovern left. 1:15:41 SM: Okay. 1:15:41 JB: That was it. And that is when they reformed the Democratic Party. MPs, you know, they did not have the chairman handing out the candy anymore, you know, they would have primaries where they could get elected delegates. And then and then that is when they, you know, they made it tougher to elect a Democrat, you know, to consolidate power into, you know, but it is interesting to see how the Democratic Party has evolved from the solid south. And those people finally woke up and realized they were Republicans. 1:15:45 SM: When did-? 1:15:51 JB: So, I say good riddance to them. We do not, we do not have that much in common with those people. 1:16:34 SM: That is true. 1:16:35 JB: They were Andrew Jackson Democrats. I did not know if Andrew Jackson was this Democrat. You know what I mean, like, Jackson was-was similar to Trump in a certain way. 1:16:47 SM: Yeah there is that historic story about when Dr. King was in jail. And-and I think it was Harris Wofford, and Bobby both went to President Kennedy to say, "You need to call down south and get him out of jail" or, you know, something like that. And I know that he, he was thinking about the Democrats, he was a pragmatic politician. That is what they always said about Jack Kennedy. And, and so the most powerful Democrats in Congress at that time were, you know, some of them was bigoted, you know, segregation and as and so it was that that was, so he had to be concerned about, you know, how they were going to react. Well, he did it. And of course, Dr.- Mrs. King just praised-praised him for doing it. And of course, Bobby and Harris were the two people that were the ones that, you know, encouraged him to do it. And it was the right thing to do to begin with. But if but that was a criticism of Jack Kennedy that sometimes he was too pragmatic in his decisions. He knew what was right. But he was too pragmatic, and it took him a little while longer, whereas with Bobby, it would not have taken him in two seconds. So when do you think- 1:18:01 JB: That is true. 1:18:02 SM: Yeah. When do you think the (19)60s began? 1:18:04 JB: I think they, oh, I mean, there was a few things leading up to John F. Kennedy, for example, John F. Kennedy. (19)60s. The [inaudible, starts singing] high hopes, so come on vote for Kennedy, vote for Kennedy and you will come out on top. [stops singing] Do you remember that song, they took the song from some Broadway show. 1:18:41 SM: Yeah. 1:18:42 JB: They made a Bobby Kennedy or a John F. Kennedy campaign song. 1:18:47 SM: Camelot. 1:18:49 JB: Yeah, [inaudible] 1:18:52 SM: I do not know. I am going to tell you, you can finish with someone who thinks the (19)60s began? 1:19:02 JB: So, you know, you know how the world was right after, right after World War Two, you know, in the (19)50s. You know, that was, you know, a boom time really, you know, like, you know, people there was only one income in the family, everybody, you know, there is a one, sometimes two cars, you know, there is a middle class, a real middle class. And it is, it is, I sat next to Senator Moynihan once at a dinner for my father in Binghamton. And, and it was right after Pataki won and beat Mario Cuomo running for what, a third or fourth term? 1:20:10 SM: Yes. 1:20:11 JB: And, well I like Mario Cuomo a lot. And so anyway, sitting next to me, we are talking about the history of the Democratic Party and stuff. He gave a little speech on that. And then he started talking about the, you know, like the, the demise of the small city, upstate New York Cities in you know, just in the Northeast United States, you know, these little small cities and what happened to them. And what happened in New York as far as, and he said, it was the dawn of the American highway system that set the stage for-for all this pilfering of other people's other people's businesses. You know, Delaware started going after, Delaware started going after New York City business companies, no factories and, and things like that. This is what I took from, I cannot remember any exact words. But when all that started, okay, and then there was this, this race to the bottom for-for the, well they were doing it with welfare to but-but for-for, you know, local companies, like, why did why did urban blight occur? Well, they started going, you know, a micro level, not the macro level of, you know, Texas just stole our, you know, Lockheed or something. But, at a micro level of, of like Joe Schmo was on the west side of Binghamton in a house that, you know, he likes house and it is a neighbor and everything else. So now that there is a route 80, 81 out to Kirkwood, he can build a house out in the suburbs, you know, on an acre lot or five-acre lot. And, and he can live out there and get the work on time in Binghamton. In fact, his work is not in Binghamton anymore, they moved it out as a route 17 exit number, whatever. And it is a new factory there. So, he hops in his pickup truck, drives down through Binghamton, stays on route 17 and gets to work in time. And he lives out in the suburbs. And now, those people that used to live in Binghamton on the west side, there is a vacancy in that house so somebody's going to buy it. So, the guy, you know, so, so there is, you know, shifting around. And so, the, the guy that would, could of used, you know, the guy that has a vacancy in his two family on Laurel Avenue in a nice neighborhood, you know, he now rents the house to the guy that used to live on the north side, he is now living in that apartment, and he is okay, but he is no great shakes. Got a job, you know. So, to now the house on the north side, the two family has a vacancy. And the only people that can move into that it is maybe somebody on welfare, you know what I mean? 1:22:47 SM: Wow. Right. 1:23:34 JB: He is not saying this, I am saying this. 1:23:36 SM: Right. 1:23:37 JB: So, what happens is, is that everybody shifts up into a different neighborhood, you know, the one that they want, American Dream kind of stuff. So that is okay, but the apart, but the apartment down on Liberty Street will remain vacant until a drug addict or somebody on welfare moves in there. And then it will become, you know, slowly, you know, mismanaged. 1:24:04 SM: Right. 1:24:05 JB: So, then you end up with a dumpy neighborhood. 1:24:07 SM: Wow. 1:24:08 JB: And that is, that is what happened. Yeah. And so then, that means they start taking the companies out of the cities. And so, the best and the brightest in those cities, like Binghamton, you know, all of a sudden IBM's gone. So, all the IBM workers move to North Carolina. And then, then all those houses are vacant. So, then the prices go down, because there is more supply than there is demand. You know, and then that impacts all the school systems, and it impacts everything. It was, it was the highways, and it was the it was the it was the taxes. You know, that what drew those companies out of those areas, is they were promised lower taxes, and they could beat the unions. They could say, "Look, you know, you do not have to [inaudible] just come down here, and hire these people" and some of them did but a lot of them did not. So it was kind of undermining the income of the American worker. 1:25:09 SM: Yes. 1:25:10 JB: You know, they would move to those areas, and go well it is warm in here, there is not [inaudible] though. Well, there better not be because you do not make enough money to pay it. 1:25:17 SM: [interjects] 1:25:19 JB: And so, I- huh? 1:25:21 SM: Continue. 1:25:23 JB: So, my opinion is that and you know, the Republicans started talking state rights when they, you know, are switching from Republican or Democrat to Republican, you know, that race is figured out that they were really Republicans. But the-the, as people lose, you know, lost their jobs, and they moved out of areas, it was all like tax incentives and all that stuff, those tax incentives lowered the income of workers, and they lowered the income, they had to get like a lot of companies to come, in order to be able to afford the deals they were making with these companies. So-so what happened was, there was this race to the bottom then, and then Cuomo will offer them a better deal, and they lowered their taxes. So now, big corporate America is no longer supporting the population and the infrastructure that they were using. You know, and it is the middle class who has been undermined in this income that is supporting the poor. 1:26:33 SM: Yeah. 1:26:34 JB: You know, and it is just crazy. You know, and then there is the internet, you know, they have like, taken the profit out of everything. And then who knows where that money is. 1:26:48 SM: I can see– 1:26:49 JB: Well. 1:26:49 SM: -yeah, you just gave a tremendous little presentation. And, you know, really, because you are talking about the Triple Cities here. But you are also talking about Cortland, New York where I grew up as a kid. Yeah, they took Brockway Truck out of there in in (19)59, I remember because we were moving, my dad got promoted. So we moved. But we were leaving Cortland. But at that particular time, Brockway took their truck company to Allentown or I do not know where it went. And then they there were some, IBM was out there and they were going to different locations and that city is really hurting and is still hurting. If it was not for the college, SUNY Cortland, they would really be hurting because right now they just shut down one of their three schools, Elton B. Parker Elementary School has just been shut down, which was a major Elementary School at that particular time. I got a few more questions, and then we will end it. It has been said that what made the (19)60s in part was the spirit of the times. How would you define the spirit of those times? 1:27:02 JB: Yeah. Optimistic. The Age of Aquarius, you know, it was a new world, it was, it was going to be great. You know, we were all you know, Woodstock and good reefer. [laughter] You know, by the way, I do not drink, I have not drunk- this is my 32nd year, this month is my anniversary month for not consuming drugs or alcohol. So. 1:28:27 SM: Congratulations. 1:28:28 JB: Do not get the wrong idea. 1:28:29 SM: I would give you a high five if you were here. 1:28:34 JB: So, but I think that it was a, it was an optimism. You know, there was a, it was a, there was a time where it will, you know, I mean we, you know, we could not really feel the impact of anything, you know, below the surface that was happening in the (19)60s, like, you know, like, companies moving and all that stuff. But we were, we were feeling the, you know, the new world like Vietnam has been exposed and it was going to be ended and, and, you know, people are, you know, there was a new music and there was, it was a cultural revolution. 1:29:14 SM: Yes. 1:29:15 JB: And I still cannot believe that I was actually partying with all these rednecks all over the United States [inaudible] Blacks, I mean, it was like, when did that happen? You were a good guy a few years ago. 1:29:29 SM: You know, itis really am- 1:29:30 JB: There is a lot of guys I know like that, you know. 1:29:32 SM: It, you bring some good points here because there was a feeling that amongst a lot of the boomer generation, but it was also the people that were older than the boomer generation too. I know around when I interviewed Richie Havens, he said, "Steve, I am a boomer in spirit, and-and I was born in (19)41." Because-because it is a feeling that we are going to change the world for the better. We are going to end you know, racism, sexism, homophobia, we are going to save the environment, we are going to be different than any other generation, it has proven not to be the case in a lot of the recent studies, but still there was that feeling amongst many of the young people. And that leads me in right into here. What-what do you think were the lessons of the (19)60s and (19)70s? What were the key lessons learned in that in that period? It can be one lesson or just, or just something that stands out. 1:30:40 JB: What? Read that again? 1:30:47 SM: Yeah. What were the lessons that we as a nation or individually could be, what did we will learn from the (19)60s and (19)70s? It could be learned, mistakes made or things that we did, right. What, you know, when we discussed this two, these two decades, what were some of the lessons we learned? 1:31:14 JB: Well, I think that I do not know if we learned them. But I think that the lesson was in, one of the big lessons was in it now not becoming involved in political, you know, I think we are coming away from, you know, anti-communism. I mean we have to protect the United States. But, you know, I think that, you know, going after the economics of other countries, you know, and having big business, you know, driv- you know, driving the boat, you know. That, that is not that is not the way to go, and I do not think that we have learned it, I think that we became aware of it. You know, and I think that we-we developed an awareness- the North East did, and probably California- we began, we developed an awareness of the, of the plight of the Black person. You know, we did not, well, you know, I was young, so I do not, you know, I cannot say, Well, you know, for five whole years, I did not realize that, you know what I mean so. But, but, you know, I get a kick out of talking to young kids these, you know now they go, "Oh, man, I have always been this way." I go, "Wait a second you are, you are 12." Always is not a very long time. But- 1:32:57 SM: What? 1:32:58 JB: -and I, you know, I think that I think that social programs, you know, the successes of Franklin Roosevelt, you know, was-was, [inaudible], you know, it was being internalized by a new generation of people that, you know, said, "Wow," you know, "That never was before," you know. These-these work programs and in Social Security, and you do not let the old people just wither on the vine, you know, well, actually we do. But, you know, in Medicare and Medicaid, those are great things. 1:33:39 SM: Yes. 1:33:39 JB: You know, I think Obamacare is a great thing, except it did not take it far enough. 1:33:44 SM: What was the what was the watershed event of the (19)60s and the (19)70s, in your view? 1:33:53 JB: Our watershed, Woodstock. Woodstock, the assassination of the Kennedys. And Martin Luther King, you know like, who is behind that? 1:34:10 SM: Do you believe in conspiracy theories? 1:34:13 JB: Yeah, I do. 1:34:16 SM: Yeah, and because, you know, we can reflect on it right now that we are still talking about that was more than Lee Harvey Oswald that shot John Kennedy. The-the, the Martin Luther King assassination that it was more than the one guy across the it, next to the motel, you know, it had to be more than just him. And of course, we know about Bobby, that things that happened in the, with Sirhan Sirhan. You know, if people have said that the gun that he was using, the bullets, none of them could have gotten to the bullets that hit the back of his head. It was, it was almost like anybody who was going to change the status quo in our society who were doing it in a very good way, humanistic way, we got to take them out because they were a threat. 1:35:08 JB: Yeah, right. 1:35:10 SM: I do not know, you know, to me that they dedicated their lives to others, and they dedicated it was not about them. It was about others. And because some group or entity or pride, who knows, they had to get rid of them. So, you do believe in conspiracy? 1:35:31 JB: Yeah, I just I just cannot wrap my head around who did it. You know, I mean, they go the mafia was mad at Bobby Kennedy. Alright, you know, what, were so they going to kill the guy running for president? You know, for me, that is a big, you know, it is a big thing to do, just because you do not like somebody, you know. But, you know, the crazy racists you know, they, they can do crazy things, because they do not like people. So that is one thing, but I do not know. I do not know. I always look at the economics of it. You know, it is like, well, who, who financially benefits? You know, I mean, it could have been like, you know, Pan Am was trying to get into Air Lingus, you know, "Let us shoot that guy." 1:36:23 SM: Yeah, it is, who knows. And one of the things about the (19)60s too, is that there were a lot of slogans that came out of the (19)60s that were kind of used every day. And there is three that I want to quote here, and I do not know if you have any more, but one of them was from Malcolm X, "By any means necessary," remember he used that, that was Malcolm and the people are still using that today. Timothy Leary time, "Tune in, turn on, drop out." And then Jerry Rubin, "Do not trust anyone under, or over 30." And he was 29 when he said it [laughs]. Are there any slogans that you remember, you were around campaigns, I know that, "We like Ike" was the one in the (19)50s but, any slogans that come to your mind that politically or that your dad was-? 1:37:20 JB: Mmm, I do not know. 1:37:24 SM: You do not have to know [inaudible] say but the slogans- 1:37:28 JB: Yeah. 1:37:28 SM: -did come out the period, like the ones I mentioned. Do you still see the- 1:37:31 JB: Yeah. 1:37:32 SM: -the divisions that we saw in the (19)60s that are kind of still linked today in our society, particularly the culture wars that are going on? 1:37:43 JB: Yeah, really. You know, I, when, when, when George Bush was elected, I was of the theory, you know, I said, well, first of all, he was going to go in there, his job, the I thought he had only last four years. His job was to go in and dismantle everything that the Democrats have done. And, and just, you know, set the stage for, you know, just, you know, so everybody's got to do it all over again, or whatever. And then I had the opinion that, that these are the last desperate efforts of a dying political party, a dying belief. It is like a chicken with its head chopped off, you know, it will just go crazy. And they are doing all this stuff, but [inaudible], you know, their legs are kicking in they are dying. And-and I thought that is what it was. But now, I am starting to feel like, there is a worldwide effort that there is a, a, you know, an organized belief that it is not over, that they are going to re-install these right-wing backward thinking things, you know, I thought, you know, we were, I had thought that we were at the end, and that no matter what they do, or what they try to do, we were going to have a new way and a new world. And I like to think that that is still going to be true but I do not know. You know, I mean, the only because like all these guys, I know. You know, I am going out to California next week, and I am going to visit a friend of mine who, you know, he thinks that Obama was this, you know, this horrible thing. And now these are these anti Obama guys. They were the real scary ones. They are like, oh, [inaudible] so anti-Obama, you know like, "Wow, man, he has really ruined this country." It is like, in what way? What are you talking about? 1:39:55 SM: Yeah. 1:39:55 JB: You know, but they, they believe that. 1:39:59 SM: Yeah. 1:40:00 JB: If you hang around with them once in a while, and you start getting an understanding, an understanding of what they believe, that is a scary thing. They really believe- 1:40:09 SM: Well there is something you know, I have talked to, I am not- my role here as an interviewer is not to make judgment. But the thing, the thing is I have spoken to people who, you know, Donald Trump will eventually be out of office, but the people that that voted for him, will be still with us. And that– 1:40:28 JB: Yeah. 1:40:28 SM: -and if that is half of America well, where are we heading? So, I, you know, it really concerns me. When you look at the boomer generation, and young people like yourself and me when we were young, the post-World War Two, what were the qualities that you admired in that young generation and the ones you least admired? I asked this question to your dad. [laughs] 1:40:58 JB: Back then, like, what do I least admire about my generation back then? 1:41:03 SM: Yes, then and now. 1:41:08 JB: Well, I admired the idealism, you know, that we could have a better world and, you know, I admired you know, the-the belief that, you know, people were going to coexist peacefully, Blacks and whites, people help other, you know, nationalities and stuff and, you know, kind of a pride, you know, how we carried ourselves through history as a place where people can come and make a light that, you know, as long as they are contributors. You know, and now I do not know. What I do not like, is I do not like racist beliefs and, you know, right wing, you know, "Let them help themselves, they get to lift themselves up." You know, I do not believe that, you know, and I think that I do not, I do not like the line, the political line about, you know, okay, well, you know, your health insurance is going to be good, or your life is going to be okay. It is not going to be okay. It is going to be really bad. And you know what, I know. We are just getting towards the end of the first season. I am rewatching. All of the seasons of West Wing, what a great TV show. 1:42:50 SM: Yeah it is, it is a great TV show. 1:42:53 JB: It was, my brother Patrick thinks it is the best, you know, TV show ever made. He is in a lot of my brothers are all in the movies [inaudible]. 1:43:04 SM: Yeah, where what where are your brothers and sisters doing now? I know that your older sisters are, well there is three of them are singers, I believe. 1:43:14 JB: Yeah. 1:43:14 SM: And they live in Ithaca. And they are the Burns singers. And I remember talking to your dad about that. But what are what are the what, what is everybody doing in the family? 1:43:25 JB: Well, Bobby is, Bobby is in his mid-70s. I think he might be retired, but he is a social worker in Cleveland. And then there is my, the next is Patrick. He just retired, was the co-producer of the TV show Always Sunny in Philadelphia, from its origin. 1:43:47 SM: Oh, wow. 1:43:48 JB: And next is Sheila. She is a retired teacher in Ithaca, and at one time sang with the other girls. 1:43:59 SM: Right. 1:44:00 JB: Let us see, then me and I am a real estate broker in Binghamton. And my brother Joe is running for city council the, there is the fifth district. He is the next one under me. And he is retired from the movie industry. And he, he worked for Robert Redford on you know, A River Runs Through It. Scorsese and Robert DeNiro and many movies [inaudible], things like that. 1:44:33 SM: Wow. 1:44:34 JB: You know, he was system director under Oliver Stone and the JFK movie and a lot of different things and then Tommy, Tommy just, he did like 10 years as the co-producer of ER. And he just got done with Nashville and then I think he is in. I think he is in, well, he lives in LA, but he is shooting a funny show in Toronto with Leary what is his name, that funny guy. 1:45:19 SM: Oh, um. 1:45:22 JB: Kind of a sarcastic fast-talking New York guy. 1:45:25 SM: Yeah, I know who he is. I cannot remember the name. 1:45:27 JB: Yeah, you know what I mean. 1:45:28 SM: Yeah. 1:45:28 JB: And then that is Tommy. Then Marie Jean- Marie and Anne sing, are the Burns Sisters at the moment. And, and then you know Marie is in Ireland a lot of time. And they go out tour like next month, they will they will tour Ireland. They go every year. 1:45:49 SM: Wow. 1:45:49 JB: And they sing all over the place. And then Genie is in Ithaca half the time, and the other half in Texas. She is a singer, songwriter, and a [inaudible]. Danny as a coffee shop up in, in Maine and in Ithaca. And has a couple, he has a son who is like a prodigy violinist and stuff. And let us see Danny, and then Vincent, who is kind of like freelance traveling man with his wife and they travel around the country in a, you know, a car and a camper. And Vincent and then Terry is a singer songwriter and her husband is a produces television commercials and things like that Nashville, but they live in Ithaca. They have a band. They play all over too. And that is it, that is all 12. 1:47:03 SM: Now do you think of your mom and dad a lot? 1:47:07 JB: Oh, yeah. Yep. 1:47:08 SM: Yep. I have lost my mom and dad. But you know, when you lose your mom and dad, you seem like they seem like they are even closer than they ever were after they have gone. 1:47:16 JB: Yeah. 1:47:16 SM: I mean, it is every day. I never had the opportunity to ask my mom and dad, did they ever think of their mom and dad and that was I, I wish- did you ever ask your dad if he ever thought of his dad? 1:47:30 JB: He did not really, his father died when he was like 11 or 12 or something like that. 1:47:37 SM: Right. 1:47:38 JB: And his mother was the stenographer for the court, for the city court for I do not know, forty years or something. She was, she was quite a person. And then you know, she was like, lectured the judge, "You may only be too harsh on people." But she, but my dad is funny [inaudible] one day he told me when he was getting older, you know. And I said something to him. I cannot remember what it was, something about aging or something. And he goes, "Johnny" he says, "I do not," he says, "I feel like I you know, I look old. And I am old." He says, "But I feel exactly like I did when I was 22." 1:48:26 SM: Wow, that is amazing. That is, that is my thought. 1:48:31 JB: Yeah, me too. 1:48:32 SM: I you know, 1:48:33 JB: I do not see any difference. 1:48:34 SM: No, I- 1:48:35 JB: That time does not exist. 1:48:37 SM: Yeah. Wow. That, you know, now I know why I really got along with your dad I had that, we had about an hour with each other. And he was having a, he was sitting in that big chair in his apartment. And he said his back was hurt a little bit. And I remember your mother was in the other room very busy. And in this is a little anecdote here. When my mom was in the hospital, I am not sure if it was Lourdes or I do not know which hospital was but her roommate was your mom. 1:49:08 JB: Oh. [laughter] 1:49:10 SM: They share, they shared the same room. And so, this is a small world here. Now I have three final. 1:49:16 JB: Oh, that is funny. 1:49:17 SM: I have three final questions. The boomer generation always had this feeling when they especially when they are young that they are the most unique generation in American history, that they were going to change the world for the better and they really felt that, I mean it was across the board. Do you think they were the most unique generation in American history? Reflecting, you can reflect on you know, over time we can some people say no way. 1:49:47 JB: About our parents’ generation? 1:49:49 SM: No, our generation, the boomers. 1:49:51 JB: Oh, I think so far. I think so far because we were the, we were the breakaway generation. You know, but we were the breakaway teenagers and young adults, you know, like a lot of these guys sold their bell bottoms and got, you know, buzz cuts. 1:50:15 SM: Right. 1:50:16 JB: You know what I mean, they sold out. I guess I did, too. I mean, I am a real estate guy. [laughs] 1:50:23 SM: Well, one of the one of the things that the critics of the boomer generation is remember, folks, there were 74 million of them and only 7 percent or under ever got involved in any kind of activism. It is a way you know, it is a, and I say, and my response to that is, "Wow, that is a lot of people." If you are talking about 7 percent, of 74 million, so there is so there is then the next the last question is, I really, I just interviewed Bobby Muller. And Bobby said that he feels the lasting legacy of the (19)60s in many respects, especially amongst the boomer generation itself, is that they, they really do not trust anybody in positions of leadership anymore. Because of the lies that they have been, and now we are seeing lives today in, you know, Washington. That trust that trust is, if there is you know it is, Bobby said to me, he says, " Steve the-the Vietnam War is a long time ago, it is good that you are making sure the history of it is known. But in the end, it is the factor of trust that young people have in young- in people in positions of power," whether that be the like the mayor, like your dad, a mayor or a principal in a high school, or head of a corporation or a minister in a church. I mean, the there was this feeling that all leaders are bad, because they have been lied to, your thoughts if that is really still prevalent in America? 1:51:57 JB: Well, yeah, I think it is really prevalent in America now. And I think what was really disappointing, you know, as, you know, as we are looking at results of the, you know, of our generation is that reform really did not get any traction. We did not reform campaign finance. And that same shit is going to keep the world exactly the same as it was, nothing is, you know, what, there is an old saying, in AA, that says, "If nothing changes, then nothing changes." You know, and that is the way it is, you know, it is a, you know, we are still going to get, you know, the big corporations and really wealthy people, and that has become more prevalent now that, the real wealthy. Now we have, you know, we have billionaires running for office, because they are the only ones they can afford to do it, you know. 1:52:58 SM: Right. 1:52:59 JB: And, and so they are either selling out or they got an agenda that we do not want or, you know, or that we have to rely on a, you know, a benefactor, you know, a rich benefactor to save us, and it is not democracy that is doing it. It is big money, and then we just cross our fingers that, you know, he is, he is really a good person. 1:53:25 SM: Right. 1:53:26 JB: You know like the mayor in New York, there what is his-? 1:53:28 SM: De Blasio. 1:53:29 JB: He wants to be president. 1:53:30 SM: De Blasio. 1:53:31 JB: No, not him. The other guy, the Republican. He used to be a Democrat, the Jewish guy. 1:53:39 SM: I am not even sure. 1:53:42 JB: Oh, he is a billionaire. [inaudible] 1:53:46 SM: Oh, yeah, I know. Yeah. Oh, my goodness, man. I cannot. 1:53:52 JB: Cannot think of his freaking name. 1:53:53 SM: Yeah, we are both the same boat. 1:53:57 JB: This is not a good sign [laughter]. 1:53:59 SM: No, that is not a good sign and we are supposed to be young. [laughter] He has got his own under radio show, a TV network and everything else. 1:54:11 JB: Yeah, begins with W. H and W. WH, uh. 1:54:19 SM: Yeah. [inaudible] think it is Broad Berger or something Berger. 1:54:23 JB: Oh, yeah-yeah, yeah-yeah, yeah-yeah, yeah. Something Burg- uh Bromberg. 1:54:29 SM: Bromberg yes. 1:54:31 JB: Is it? 1:54:32 SM: I do not know, all I know is- 1:54:34 JB: How about David Bromberg? 1:54:35 SM: I am not sure, well that he was an entertainer, was not he? 1:54:39 JB: Oh, yeah. He is unbelievable. 1:54:40 SM: Yeah, yeah. Yep. My last question is this, and this is, I have not talked about Vietnam that much but- on this particular one- but the Vietnam memorial was built and opened in (19)82. And of course, you know, we know how Vietnam veterans are treated when they came back from the war, they were treated very poorly. 1:54:41 JB: Still around. Yeah. x1:55:00 SM: And I mean, terrible. And of course, the wall's been, you know, there since (19)82. And it was the first time they ever came together. And the goal of the wall was to, you know, to really pay remembrance to those who served and died in the war and to help with the healing of the families and- 1:55:20 JB: Yeah. 1:55:20 SM: -lost loved ones in the whole works. The key question that Jan Scruggs used to sing when he wrote his first book, The Healing of a Nation was the book that he wrote. And I know Jan quite well, and I have interviewed him quite a few times. Do you think that there is still the issue of healing from this war? And we are hearing that Bobby says we are the war is a long time ago now, we got issues with China. He started going into detail, it is just forget Vietnam. I mean, I was very involved in it for a long time, and I care about veterans. But time has moved on, and there are other issues. And do you think that we as a nation have healed from that war be the division- 1:56:05 JB: Vietnam? 1:56:06 SM: Yeah, from Vietnam, the divisions that were happening then and the divisions that like, still continue today, whether it be in the cultural war, those who were for or against the war, those who served those who did not serve. I know, it is a long time ago now, I hate to say it is over 50 years. But just your thoughts on when he wrote the book, To Heal a Nation, you know, it is, have we healed the nation? 1:56:33 JB: Well, I do not you know, my personal feelings about it is that that I think that some things have gotten worse, like, like, you know, we did not like the military. And then and the guys that went in, you know, we were not empathetic for you know, but you know, a lot of our cousins and brothers and people, you know, they, they are, you know, they are good guys, and they were there and that is it, you know. But, but the, the all this, I hate all this, you know, oh the Marines "Oh, my God, everybody stand up," there is guys walking through right now that are helping Exxon make fucking money. You know, it is like, you know, they think these poor souls that are in the service, think that they are defending the United States, and they are not. They are helping, they are the oils company sponsors you know, secures them. Have you ever, have you ever heard of the, in Afghanistan has one of the largest deposits of these special metals, you see, you know, they are, they are very hard to find. And they are very expensive. And they are in communication phones and things like that, that the biggest locations of it in the world or in Afghanistan, you know, it is not a coincidence that. Like, we do not give a shit, what happens to the women in Iraq, and Iran and Saudi Arabia, we do not we do not care about them. But we are very empathetic to the Afghanistan women and how they are treated. You know, what is that about? You know, it is about money. Like they want something that is in the ground in Afghanistan, I believe that. You know, remember when, there is a great book. I have not read the whole thing, because it is like a huge and my attention span, I still have to make money too. But it is called The Prize. And it is about the dawn of oil into everything, you know, when they first started using it, and then they realized it could be a fuel. I mean, how they were drinking this stuff. You know, they did not know what to do with it. They knew it was good, though. So anyway, once oil came onto the scene, you know, like, they talked a little bit about how what is his name in the- Winston Churchill. Bloomberg is the guy. 1:59:36 SM: Bloomberg, yes. 1:59:37 JB: [inaudible] but they-they have they have him having to make a decision right around the end of World War One, beginning of World War Two or somewhere in there, where he had to make a decision, "Am I going to dump- am I going to stick with steam and coal to keep my navy going, or am I going to oil?" And you know, that is what everybody was doing. They were all deciding what they were doing. But I remember being a little kid, and watching World War Two movies, the Germans and the Americans and all this stuff. And I would always ask myself, what the hell -are they, Germany's Germany. You know, it is like, why are they in the desert? What are they doing fighting in the desert? You know, why are they there? They were there, because that was where the oil was. 1:59:37 SM: Yep. 1:59:45 JB: You know. And if you look at, you know, if you look at, you know, that, that if you just focused on just that, like, okay, well, what happened, and, and what was the result, and where was the oil and everything. It makes a lot more sense than, okay, we are going to go down there and kick their butt. And then but anyway. 2:01:03 SM: Well, I am basically done. But are there any final thoughts or any observations or things that you might want to say that I did not ask? 2:01:13 JB: You know, I mean, I was lucky, you know, like I was, although we were not wealthy, I was privileged, because of the position my father rose to, you know, and, and there are so many people in the world that are not lucky. You know, and, and for some reason, you know, you think about the education that we all got, and, you know, we are part of a certain type of people. You know, it is not necessarily like what I learned in college, or what, my brothers were, you know, at the top of their industry, in production of movies and television programs. You know, like, I am a top producing guy, I have had a TV show for 20 years. You know, I, you know, I am creative, I make money. My sisters are singers, and, you know, like, everybody has had a level of success in not necessarily real common areas, but-but, you know, we did not choose to, you know, work in a factory or to, you know, work for a large corporation or anything 2:02:34 SM: Right. 2:02:34 JB: And all, you know, we are all kind of independent people. I do not know what all that means. But I do know that, you know, I am, I am, I am kind of lucky that way, you know, in my dad did not really make any money and did not end up with any real money or anything like that. But-but, you know, he had an exciting, interesting life. 2:02:59 SM: Yeah, well, you know- 2:03:00 JB: I see a lot of that. 2:03:01 SM: I am, well, I think your dad is, is one of the good guys. And I was a student at Binghamton at the time. And I always admired him from afar. And, and I know, he is probably very proud of all of his kids, and what you have done in your lives. And I think what it says it all at the very is what we you, you and I both said that we think about our parents every day, and even though they are gone, and you have got our own families and kids and all this and so forth. But obviously, they played- 2:03:34 JB: Did you ever know Kete Dover? They used to live out on Pennsylvania Avenue, there is another guy, they were like hippies they lived there was like a commune there. Exactly. Out on Upper Penn Ave. 2:03:37 SM: No-no. 2:03:44 JB: Hawleyton Road. 2:03:51 SM: I did not. 2:03:54 JB: Yeah, those guys are all still around. 2:03:56 SM: [laughs] They still got a commune? 2:03:59 JB: No, no. 2:04:00 SM: Okay. I know there is. [inaudible] Yeah, there is still that farm, the farm down in Tennessee, that still exists. So 2:04:09 JB: Yeah. 2:04:09 SM: Well I want to thank you for the for doing this and being interviewed and I am going to before I am going to just turn the tape machine off here. Thank you very much, John Burns. 2:04:20 JB: Okay. Thank you very much and- 2:04:23 SM: Let me turn this- 2:04:23 JB: -reach out some time. 2:04:23 SM: Let me turn this. Yeah, let me let me turn this- (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 8/7/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dean Kahler Biographical Text Dean Kahler grew up on a farm in East Canton, Ohio. In his youth, Dean received criticism because he was a pacifist and did not support the war in Vietnam. After high school, he attended Kent State University, enrolling in the teaching program. On May 4, 1970, Dean was shot in the lower back by Ohio National Guardsmen who were sent to quell the protests on Campus that had occurred days prior. Dean lost his ability to walk, however, that did not stop him from pursuing a career in teaching and becoming elected to public office. Since then, Dean has been a leading force in the push for handicap reforms all across the state of Ohio. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:35:41 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Anti-Vietnam; Ohio; south; farming; Church; politics; 1960s; protest; gender roles; Vietnam War; Anti-War Movement; Kent State; pacifism; boomers; Kent State Shootings Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Dean Kahler Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger Date of interview: 7 August 2019 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:01 All right. First off Dean- DK: 00:04 Before we start? SM: 00:05 Yes, go ahead. DK: 00:05 Before we get in, question for you. Have you ever run into a woman named Meg Benke? BENKE? SM: 00:14 No. DK: 00:16 She is an administrator I think at the SUNY. SM: 00:18 Oh, ah was she, now was she was she in the (19)60s? DK: 00:28 Well, no-no, no, she is a little later than that. SM: 00:33 Oh, okay. DK: 00:34 But, you know, she is probably 10 years younger than I am. SM: 00:39 Okay. Now I- DK: 00:42 I knew her down in, I knew her down in Athens. SM: 00:45 Oh, okay, very good. DK: 00:47 Yeah. SM: 00:48 All right, let me let me start this. Now. Before we start, let me let me just rem- do you remember when you were working in Athens, when the gentleman who wrote "Born on the Fourth of July”- I forget his name now, golly. DK: 01:04 Ron Kovic. SM: 01:05 Yeah. Ron Kovic. He was arrested. DK: 01:09 Yep. SM: 01:09 Yeah, he, it was between (19)73 and (19)76. And I remember he was protesting there. And I remember I, one of the students brought a newspaper back from the main campus to the Lancaster campus and they really, boy they really roughed him up, geez. Even though he is in a wheelchair, I could not believe what the- you know that he was up. I guess he was arrested a lot. He is a very close friend of Bobby Mueller who found that Vietnam Veterans of America. DK: 01:35 Right, yeah. SM: 01:36 And-and he and Ron were two of the leaders of Vietnam Veterans Against the War too. So, you know, yeah, they are very close friends. My very first question, Dean is, could you tell me a little bit about your growing up year years, where you grew up, what your what your family did where you went to elementary and high school, your early influences in life before going to Kent State? DK: 02:00 Okay. Well, I grew up in a- outside of a little village and township called the Osnaburg Township, OSNABURG. And the post office we got our mail out was a little village called East Canton, which changed it is name from Osnaburg to East Canton during World War One because some people came out and burned down some barns in Osterberg because he thought everybody that lived out there with German. SM: 02:27 Oh, my gosh. DK: 02:29 Yeah-yeah. So that is how it kind of went from Osnaburg to East Canton. But I lived in Osnaburg Township, though. SM: 02:38 Right. DK: 02:39 But a farming community, basically. My, where I lived was on one of the very early subdivisions in in Osnaburg Township. The house I was lived, grew-grew up in was made or built in (19)23. So, it was the same age as my dad. And we lived about four football fields away from the family farm. SM: 03:05 Oh, wow. DK: 03:06 And my dad, my dad sold his interest in the farm to his brother. And they all did basically all the siblings. And he is the one that had the farm, and it is still a farm to this day. SM: 03:19 My golly. DK: 03:23 [Inaudible] SM: 03:23 Now when you were a kid, did you like work for your dad on the farm? Like, for example, the haying season and that kind of stuff? DK: 03:32 I worked for my uncle on the farm. And yeah, I did not just work in hay season, I worked in the winter season, the spring season, the planting season, the harvesting season, you name it, I was there. You know, go up, get up in the mornings to go milk cows, take a shower and eat breakfast at my Uncle Ray's house or Uncle Ray's and Aunt May's house [crosstalk], go to school. And that was my life basically, from that time I was 12 or 13 years old. SM: 04:04 Now- DK: 04:04 We are also involved, but I was also involved in the Church of the Brethren. And that is the Church of the Brethren. Which are the old, the old Dunkers. And for a frame of reference, the church that that is that Antietam is an old Dunker church. SM: 04:22 I know it well. DK: 04:24 An old Brethren Church. SM: 04:25 Yes. DK: 04:26 And yes, I have been there for two services that they have held in period costume and in period practices, with Brethren historians. But yeah, even though we were all pacifists, they were there helping to tend to the wounded no matter what color uniform they had on. SM: 04:47 Yeah, I have been the Antietam about three times, when I go to Gettysburg then I drive over to Antietam and- DK: 04:53 Yeah. SM: 04:54 -and one day I was there, it was a beautiful day and that the building you are talking about was across the street from the tourist center. And, and some of those historic shots from the battle itself. And they were comparing the how it looks today without a looked back in at the in- the year the Antietam took place. And wow, that was something else. DK: 05:14 Yeah, certainly was, certainly was. SM: 05:17 Now what was your, how many kids are in your high school? DK: 05:21 Let us see, I do not know about the high school, but every class had right around one hundred kids in it. And that is K through, or 1 through 12. We did not have kindergarten whenever I was kid till later on. SM: 05:33 Right. DK: 05:33 But we, my graduating class was ninety-six kids, and most of us so we all had farm backgrounds in that class. So I grew up in that kind of environment, an agricultural environment, but also grew up in a religious environment, because I was involved in the youth group, as a junior high and then a high schooler and was, you know, chairman of our youth group for one year, then I was on the district chairman or district youth group, and I was the chairman there one year as well, I would work your way up from treasurer, secretary, vice president, president. That sort of stuff. And then, so I traveled all over northern Ohio, [inaudible] district working with other youth groups and planning activities for everybody along the way, having district wide youth activities as well. SM: 06:31 Well, now that was, that was when you were in high school, correct? DK: 06:34 That was all when I was in junior high in high school, yeah. SM: 06:37 You now, has-has this continued, I mean, a different way as you became an adult? And you know, I know you had the tragedy at Kent State. But as you have gone on later in life, has religion plays a very important part in your life? DK: 06:52 Well, the principles of religion have played a very important part in my life, but because of the transient nature of human beings these days. I go to church whenever I can. And I, you know, I enjoy the religious aspect of the religious community that is there. But you know, I have lived in Athens, I have lived up here. And, you know, in Athens there were no brother churches down there. The closest one I think, was selling coffee. SM: 07:23 I know where that is. DK: 07:24 About six miles away from Athens, so. But I did not have any real religious community there. I went to the church right on Main Street there, right behind beside the City Hall of Athens- SM: 07:41 Okay. DK: 07:41 -what is the name of that church? SM: 07:43 I know it because I worked at the Ohio University of Lancaster campus, but I was on the main campus a lot for meetings. I was involved in the Human Relations Committee, and we had to go down there once a month for those meetings. DK: 07:56 Oh, yeah. SM: 07:56 And then I love a lot of the faculty members I got to know at the main campus, and I brought them back as speakers because they were some pretty renowned authors there. Particularly in the philosophy [crosstalk], particularly people like Dr. Hunt, who has passed away, but he was in the philosophy department. In high school, what activities were you involved in? DK: 08:18 Well, let us see. I was involved in the junior play, the senior play, I played football in high school. I was involved in intramural basketball because I could not walk and chew gum at the same time. [laughter] We did not have a speech or debate team, but I was on what was it? Why hot, Wi Fi or Wi Hi? Or, you know, sort of like Junior-Junior, Junior Achievement type-type of people. So. SM: 08:51 I got to, [crosstalk] I got to ask you this. If you were a football player, how come they did not recruit you for Ohio State? [laughter] DK: 08:59 Well, let us see. I was when I graduated high school and when I was playing high school football, I was six foot two and weighed 150 pounds. SM: 09:07 Now I understand. DK: 09:09 And I could barely walk and chew gum at the same time. SM: 09:12 [laughs] Very good. Yeah, as a high school student in the late (19)60s. What year did you graduate? High School? DK: 09:21 (19)69. SM: 09:22 Yep. As a high school student in the late (19)60s, what were your thoughts on the issues of the day? And I am not sure if you are, you know, you are working on the farm, you got activities, but whether that was touching you before you ever got to Kent State, and I am just- DK: 09:37 Yeah, it touched me long before I get to Kent State. One because of my activities with the Church of the Brethren. And the issue of pacifism. Two, because of the issues relating to women's rights- SM: 09:52 Oh, yeah. DK: 09:52 -and probably most importantly, the issue of civil rights. Our church was involved in all three of those in a pretty heavy way. All through the (19)60s. And so, I grew up with a mixed marriage family. My father was a member of the Democratic Party and a union member. And my mother was a member of the Republican Party. And she did not work until, I think when I was 16, when she started working when my brother went to, went to high school, or elementary school, and so I, my parents, sort of were like the-the ideal of the (19)60s, you know, we sat down at dinner table every night, and discussed the issues of the day. And you better have something to bring to the table, as opposed to just picking on your sister or whatever. SM: 09:54 Yeah, yeah, you know Dean, it is amazing how much we are alike in many ways. My, my mother was came from a strong Democratic family, my dad was a Republican. DK: 10:53 Oh, wow. SM: 10:53 Yep. And we had all while growing up until we start going off to college, and we were away and everything we had, we always were there together at the dinner table, and we discussed everything. Sometimes, sometimes my mom wanted my dad to speak up more, because he was always eating fast. And he ate so fast, he would get up the table, say "No we want you to stay here awhile" [laughs] because he was a fast eater, but talking about the issues of the day, and that is interesting. That is very interesting. And I do not think I asked you this question about your parents, did they argue over politics or did they just, you know- I do not ever remember my parents arguing ever about politics. DK: 11:33 Well, they never argued, but they discussed it regularly. And there was no, there was no dissension amongst them other than disagreement. And so, you know, when they argued they were talking about a particular issue, and their belief in it, whatever, whatever that issue was that particular day. So that was that was how I grew up debating politics as a kid, watching my parents discuss those issues, pros and cons of each of those, their positions on whatever the issue was, whether it be, you know, the Vietnam War, or, you know, the issue of pollution, the issue of women's rights, you know, all that kind of stuff that was happening in the (19)60s. SM: 11:51 Right. It is amazing. When you think about it, all the movements that were, you used the Civil Rights movement as examples to, on how to do things and nonviolent protests by via Dr. King, but there were also those who created violence. But you know, when you look at the Vietnam War, and Civil Rights, the women's movement, obviously the Native American, the Native American movement too and the gay and lesbian- DK: 12:41 Yeah. SM: 12:41 -the gay and lesbian movement, and Earth Day from (19)70. These are like major issues, and they were all evolving, all in about the same time where people were speaking up. DK: 12:51 Oh, yeah. SM: 12:53 So, when you were in high school, you were really up to date and what was happening in the world. DK: 13:01 We sure were, we sure were. In fact, my government teacher took about 40 of us, 40 of us on a school bus up to the University of Akron to see Richard Nixon give his speech in (19)68, when he came to the University of Akron, and since then I have run into hundreds of people who were there, who went to Kent State, who were, you know, students of Kent State along the way, we all compare our notes about what we saw and what we heard, and how we interpreted those that particular event. SM: 13:32 Wow. DK: 13:33 So yeah, it is pretty amazing that I am conversing with people for three, four or five years older than me who were at the, at the Nixon speech at the University of Akron. SM: 13:44 What-what were your thoughts, what were your thoughts in high school way before you get to Kent State, about student protesters? In terms of, you know, people just protesting in general. DK: 13:59 I thought it was an important thing to do. I mean, the- our founding fathers protested. And I believed a lot in what President- Dr. King had to say about being peaceful and knowledgeable, not only on the issue, but on your opponent, the person who has a different agreement than you do, different understanding. SM: 14:20 Right. DK: 14:20 And so, to me protesting is, you know, goes right along with apple pie. Ice cream and apple pie, you know, as the American dream. SM: 14:34 You know, when the when, in the beginning of the Vietnam War, most people supported it. But as time goes on, particularly in the mid- probably about the late (19)60s, things changed. And, and, you know, when you look at our Founding Fathers, they were a minority amongst Americans who, you know, did, you know, they wrote the Declaration of Independence and they wanted freedom still the majority of Americans were afraid of the British and kind of looked at the Founding Fathers in many ways as radicals. DK: 15:04 Yeah. SM: 15:04 And as a young man, I used to compare that when I saw some of the people protesting the Vietnam War, because in the beginning, they were in the minority. And then then finally, they evolved into the majority. So, it is kind of kind of a linkage in two different eras. DK: 15:18 Exactly, but also in my environment, in Church of the Brethren people who protested the war were a minority. But I have to look back at some of the original protesters that were there for, say, like the Civil Rights movement, and the civil- and then the war, the anti-Vietnam War movement. A lot of those were church ladies who are writing letters, who were doing bake sales, raising money to say, sent to, to the NAACP, all that sort of stuff. And, you know, they were like silent protesters, they were doing something. And a lot of people forget about the very first protests of the war in Vietnam were not college students. They were church ladies who believed in pacifism, thought this war was crazy. So. SM: 16:07 Yeah, there was a strong organization in Philadelphia in the (19)60s. And that was Mothers Against the Vietnam War. And they were old, they were older women, they were actually in their 30s and 40s. That we brought a couple of them to Westchester University. And, you know, they have all passed on now, but that was a great revelation hearing from them. DK: 16:29 Right. Well, you had the Quakers, Mennonites, Church of the Brethren, and whoever else was out there protesting, the old church ladies who were against this whole war. So, yeah. SM: 16:41 In your, in your view, what has been the overall impact of your generation, which is the boomer generation, on America? And I can ask, and I would say, the (19)60's generation, because not everybody went to college. And there were a lot of young people who were not going to college against the war, what, are your feelings toward your generation positive, more positive or negative? DK: 17:05 I think a positive, though I do have some disappointment in the fact that a lot of people still have to then continue to stand up against the corruption and, you know, the-the abuse of power by public officials. And not supporting people who were out there on the front lines. So yeah, I mean, I still have a positive impact, or view of my generation that we did a lot of things, we made a lot of change. But our follow through was a little bit short. We could have been a little more involved as we got older. But then again, you know, you worry about all these things, you know, you are paying taxes, your houses, your children. SM: 17:52 Right. DK: 17:54 So yeah. SM: 17:55 One of the things, one of the opportunities I have had when I have interviewed so many people is hearing some tremendous insights from things I did not even thought and one of them was Richie Havens. When he, when I interviewed him, when I talked about the boomer generation, he became very sensitive because he says, "I am a boomer, but I was born in (19)41." And he was about the third or fourth person that I interviewed of all the people I interviewed who got very sensitive about these putting years into, the boomers are from (19)46 to (19)64. The generation- DK: 18:29 Right. SM: 18:29 -Xers are (19)64, to (19)80. And Richie, Richie said, just made a comment, and I and it will be in the interview if we can get his daughter to okay it. That the spirit, the spirit of the (19)60s, the spirit of the times, it is not in years. It is based on the people, and he was he said, "I am born in (19)41. And I am as much a boomer as you are." DK: 18:54 Yeah, I agree with him there. That is 100 percent correct. Because, you know, all through that time, it was not just us young people. I mean, I looked around and I saw people with gray hair. SM: 19:03 Yes. DK: 19:04 Throughout their lifetime. So. SM: 19:06 You know, there is, there is some great senators there against the war, the some of the older ones, but there were also a few remember Dean, reading about the (19)60s or even before you went to Kent State. I heard these stories about that the leaders on college campuses were the older students that were in graduate school, and that the undergraduate’s kind of looked up to them as mentors and role models. And when you look at all the, when you look at Rennie Davis, Tom Hayden- I know Tom Hayden's first wife, Casey Hayden, and- DK: 19:36 Yeah. SM: 19:37 -they were all born between (19)37 and (19)45. DK: 19:41 Yeah-yeah. SM: 19:43 So, it is kind of you know, there is some truth to what Richie was saying. And actually, Todd Gitlin said in the interview, he said he- you know, "I-I like the fact that you are talking about the generation you grew up in, but if I hear one more time, you mentioning [laughs] our generation I might-might end the interview." Because he-he is in that group of (19)37 to (19)45. If you were to describe the students and the overall youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, please describe in your own words, the qualities you admire the qualities you do not admire. And I am asking you some general questions before we get into, you know, more of the other things directly related to your life. But this is just being around your peers and your thoughts on them. DK: 20:34 Well, I admired their intellectual curiosity. And I admired the fact that the, although the lines between men and women were breaking down to the point where men did not expect the women just to do the copying, and the typing. And that we were growing in that sense of the word. And the fact that we were not afraid to speak up and, you know, point out the foibles and the injustices that our society was committing in our name. SM: 21:12 Do you feel that the some of the people within that generation were kind of naive? Because if you recall, it was even at Kent State, probably. I know it was at SUNY Binghamton and I know it was at Berkeley- I have talked to some people. Is that some are very serious and well-read, and others were naive and did not understand. Because there was, "We want to end the war," or "We want to stop this," but there was no alternative. They had no alternative except to criticize what was, they had no idea about what will become. DK: 21:45 Well, when you end the war, you know, obviously, you have got to take care of it, and deal with the country that is your you invaded. In this particular case, you are talking about Vietnam. And yeah, there was naiveite there, there is no doubt about that. But generally, people are willing to learn. So, you know, the naive, students, if they did anything, they learned a little bit as well, because there was so much to be learned around you. And it was easy to learn because it was in your face every single day. And if it was not in your face, you knew somebody who was in Vietnam. And so. SM: 22:29 Did you, did you lose any friends in the war? DK: 22:33 Well, I did not lose any friends in the war, but I had several who were wounded. And a classmate of mine, her brother was killed in Vietnam. He was about three years older than us. So yeah, I would say that would have been (19)60, (19)65 or (19)66. Because I remember what she was pulled out of algebra class. SM: 23:00 Oh, wow. That would have been, that would have been sad. Do you did you, in your family, what we heard a lot about back in the (19)60s and (19)70s was this generation gap. Was there a generation gap in your family at all about the war or any of the issues? And or if not in your family, maybe some of your friends and their families? DK: 23:23 Oh, yeah. I saw it all around me. Also, my father did not like the fact that I was [inaudible] I was a pacifist. He thought it was my duty to be involved in the military, get drafted and or join because he was drafted in World War Two. And, you know, he fought in the Pacific. And then, you know, my neighbors. Whenever they started hearing about my views on pacifism, they, you know, they would make comments about that. They did not think it was right. Some of my colleagues, my high school colleagues called me a coward or [inaudible] sort of stuff. SM: 24:06 Wow. DK: 24:08 Even though I played you know, I was starting tackle on the football team. [laughter] SM: 24:14 And you could not run if you are chewing gum, right? [laughs] DK: 24:19 Right. I can take four or five steps and knock somebody down, you know. SM: 24:24 Yeah. DK: 24:25 When you are farm boy, you do not have an ounce of fat on you, [inaudible] SM: 24:29 Right. Now, how did you choose Kent State? DK: 24:34 Well, it was a long-distance phone call from my parents. [laughs] SM: 24:40 Really? DK: 24:42 Well, no. I wanted to be a teacher. So, they had a real good reputation for being an education college. It used to be a formal school at one point. SM: 24:51 Right. DK: 24:53 They definitely know how to [inaudible] teachers there. SM: 24:57 Yeah, well, I cannot believe how big that school is growing right now if we get back into the questions, but I in the last couple of times I have been there, there is new buildings going up everywhere. And downtown. You are not going to recognize it eventually. With all the- DK: 25:11 Oh yeah, the downtown has been totally remodeled. [inaudible] SM: 25:17 Yeah, it is a growing university with more and more students attending as well. I [crosstalk] have a- go ahead. DK: 25:27 Okay. But good reason for that growth. What is Kent surrounded by? Akron, Canton, Cleveland, Youngstown? SM: 25:34 Yes. So, a lot of people. DK: 25:38 Yeah. SM: 25:40 What is that up to now in numbers? DK: 25:43 Well, on the main campus, they are right around 21, 22 thousand. But that is not including the-the branch campuses in East Liverpool and, oh God Tuscarora County, and Stark County and. There is another one up near [inaudible] up in Geauga County. SM: 26:04 Okay. DK: 26:04 As well, so there are at least four branch campuses with around 5000 students in each one. SM: 26:12 That is a lot of students. I know, you know, Ohio universities survived in the early (19)70s because of Lancaster and Zanesville, and I think Chillicothe. Ohio, the Lancaster campus, I think has 2200 students now I think they are pretty much 2200, 2500 students. But-but Ohio University in the early (19)70s, they were up close to 18,000. And I think they went down to about 12,500 or 13,500 after the (19)60s. And so- DK: 26:41 Right, they did for a while. SM: 26:42 Yeah, so there was a lot of things going on there. Now, this is just a general question here. And I know you may have already said some things on it. In high school and college that you support and participate in protests against the war in Vietnam and other protests. And just wondering, how did you feel about- you already answered that. How do you feel about protesters after arriving at Kent? DK: 27:04 Yeah, I went to a couple of protests, one of them was outside of the Student Union. And there was about 30, 30 of us there. I did not have any signs, but they had signs. So, I used one of their signs. But there was a group that was standing there about eight or ten guys, they were sorority brothers. And they will in their Izod shirts and whatever kind of golf shirts, they were wearing-wearing a gulf button up and shut, trying to shut us down. We are trying to, you know, march in and also to talk about the issues of the day. And I went to a couple others that were in the evening, and small protests of 15 or 20 people. And there was not any counter protesters. I have gone to those as well. So yeah, they were there. I wore a peace button or peace sign on my shirt every day. And people knew my position on that just by checking out the button on my shirt. SM: 27:29 Right. Yep. DK: 28:06 So, yeah. SM: 28:06 Yeah. Well, you know that that whole description of the-the fraternity guys with their Izod or polo shirts, whatever it might be. It is so true. It was the case at Ohio State when I was there in graduate school. It was the case of, at SUNY Binghamton when they were we- actually were banned from SUNY Binghamton. We did not have fraternities or sororities, when we were there, there was no way it was ever going to be passed. And of course, anybody who knows the free speech movement at Berkeley knows that the people that were those biggest threats toward the protesters were not the police. They were the [laughs] fraternity guys. So, when you, before you came to campus, you obviously were aware of some of the other major protests that were happening around the country. What, you know, the takeover at Columbia, the free speech, [crosstalk] the free speech movement at Berkeley at (19)65, (19)66. Certainly, the takeover by Native Americans of Alcatraz, I know Jane Fonda was there for that. And of course, the Cornell University in (19)69, when members of the Black Panther Party took over the union and they had guns. What was your thoughts on all these different protests? These were major happenings, some were peaceful, some were not. DK: 29:26 Well, I think it is important so that people would know that those people out there disagreeing with the White House policies in this particular case. And I thought it was great that they were doing it, it was important, it got a message out and let people know that there is a large portion of people who were going to be cannon fodder for the military who did not like this particular war. I mean, it is not that that they were against all wars. They were against this particular war, unlike my religion, which is against all war. And so up, you know, but it is important to realize that, you know, as young people are, who were studied, they were quick to learn. And they learned that there is this very [inaudible] what we were doing in Southeast Asia. That was important to let you know, the older generation know that we were not going to go peacefully into the night. And I agreed with them. I thought it was a good idea, I am not. I was always a person who believes in peaceful protest, but it was important to protest. And a little thing about Cornell, two years before the protests at Cornell, my church had their annual youth conference, which happens every four years nationwide, and I was on the Cornell campus for 10 days. SM: 30:48 Oh, wow. DK: 30:49 At that particular time. SM: 30:50 That is my neck of the woods. DK: 30:52 Yeah. And Bob Dylan was supposed to play there. But I think that was when he was still recuperating from his motorcycle accident. SM: 31:00 Oh, okay. DK: 31:02 Yeah-yeah. SM: 31:03 Here is a little tidbit. One of the African American leaders of that very serious protests at Cornell is now one of the most important alumni in Cornell's history. I think he is on the, I think he was on, he was on the Board of Trustees for a while. He has become a very successful person in life. And, and Harry Edwards, you know, the former professor at Berkeley, he was the advisor there at Cornell, he was a graduate student. And he come, [crosstalk] yeah, he was a graduate student there at the time. And he was involved in the protests, advising them. And of course, we all know what he did with Tommie, John Carlos and Tommie Smith in (19)68 Olympics. DK: 31:26 Wow. Yeah. SM: 31:49 [crosstalk] So a lot of connection there at Cornell. This is a question I would like your feelings on, and that is, how important were the student protests on college campuses on ending the war in Vietnam? Would you consider this time the closest, and also would you consider the (19)60s and early (19)70s as the closest we have come to a civil war since the Civil War? DK: 32:19 Protests on college campuses were like building a house, which culminated in say, the shootings at Kent State University, and then the marches on Washington that happened around that time as well. So, there was a whole building blocks, it was all, like, putting a putting a pot of stew on the stove, you know, you put your potatoes in first, but there they go the hardest thing, takes longer to cook. So those are important as steppingstones along the way. And the second part of that question was what? SM: 32:56 Oh, would you consider the period of the (19)60s and early (19)70s like the 19- like the Civil War, we came close to going at each other's throats. DK: 33:11 I do not think it was close to a civil war at all. Not at all. Mainly because people who were protesting the war were thinking about the union. They were thinking about this country, and the people that lived in this country. And so, I do not think there was any correlation to a civil war at all, because you had all through the (19)60s with Martin Luther King, talking about peaceful coexistence, and protesting peacefully. And many of the antiwar demonstrators felt the same way and use the same tactics along the way. So not anywhere close to a civil war. SM: 33:50 Did the-? DK: 33:51 Unlike the crazy extreme right. Now, just because they do not like some of the policies that are out there that are more humane and less discretionary. They are already starting to scream about a civil war, which is crazy. I mean, those people would nuts. And I hate to say that, but I know a few along the way, and they are already talking about Civil War, and I say, "what?!" How could you even say such a thing. SM: 34:21 Yeah. The think the media at times kind of built this kind of, is this, is there a possibility and what they would always use is that wall street scene where the hard hats would-would beat up the protesters, remember that scene? I forget what year. DK: 34:40 Oh yeah, oh yeah. [inaudible] SM: 34:42 And they always go there. They always go to that scene on, in New York, and it is the media trying to portray some of these things too. DK: 34:51 I must say I watch a lot of media because I am laid up right now. I do not feel [inaudible] doing that. What I do see on the Internet, going through various places like YouTube, the NRA chapters of an extreme [inaudible], people out there that have their own websites. They are the ones who are bringing up the issue of civil war. At this point in time. You know, they are worried about gun control, they are worried about Black people taking over. They are worried about people of different color, different nationalities who are American citizens who are born here that do not look like them. They are the ones who are stirring this up. The media has done a good job of keeping it off the front page, as far as I am concerned. [Inaudible] say, I am consuming a lot of media right now, because I am laid up. And I do not see it. What I am seeing is, it is crazy people out there, putting their videos online talking about, you know, how to prep for this type of thing. How much ammo do you need, you know, what kind of property you need to build. So that stuff is going on, those people are crazy. And there is like they are getting more and more hits, more and more likes, on their, on their, on their pages. SM: 35:37 Right. I know, it is more, I know, Morris Dees wrote a book, maybe 15, maybe six, maybe 15 years ago about the militia. And I think it is as applicable today as it was when he wrote it. Have you changed your opinion at all about boomers since you have aged? DK: 36:30 Just like I said, I see more of the areas where we could have done more follow through. And we have not. And so yeah, that is that part about me is a little disappointed in some areas. But I think in the, for it is time, we, we did a good job. And we made the country aware of what was going on. But I think at this point in time, what I am seeing is the boomer generation, the-the women who are involved, are the ones who are more active and more, more willing to be out there and in front and do leadership. You know, to me, that is important to see the women are picking it picking it up. SM: 37:10 I agree. I agree. And I hope I hope one day we really get equal pay. DK: 37:17 Yeah. SM: 37:17 Equal pay for equal work, I know that this has been a big issue, it is still is in some positions, because of the position everybody is paid the same, like in Congress. But the thing is, that they are still not being paid, what men are paid. And they still have to, you know, continue the battle. The-the, would you describe the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s as the most unique generation in American history? I say this, because back, you may have heard this from your peers back when we were both young, whether it be Kent State or SUNY Binghamton or another, any other college, students felt that they had this feeling that, a good feeling that they were going to change things and for the betterment of society, they were, that they were going to be the change agents for the betterment-betterment of society, they saw they would see it wrong, and they tried to right it. Your thoughts on that, that they, that this feeling that we are unique, we are different, we may be the greatest generation in history. They thought that in their youth, I am not sure if they think that now. DK: 38:27 Well, I never thought that my youth always thought that we were just part of these movements in this society that we live in, this country we live in. We were just picking up the mantle and carrying it forward. Now the generation that I attribute that is probably the most changed, did the most change in this world, would be my parents’ generation that fought in World War Two, that survived the Great Depression, and brought the prosperity to the world that we have out there. And that that, to me was probably the generation that had the biggest impact on society in this world, you know, in my lifetime, but I think we were just part of a, you know, part of the movement in this country to move forward. And you know, we did not have any big world war, but we had our own skirmishes in Cambodia, you know, and Laos. So yeah, I mean, I do not know I do not, I never got that feeling that we were, you know, major change agents in the world. I never felt that at all. SM: 39:35 I have about six other questions before we get to the Kent State, but I am going to go right into Kent State because I think it is important here. DK: 39:43 Yeah. SM: 39:43 These are the questions; I got a whole series here. Why did you why did you choose Kent State, and I think you have already explained that and your major in teaching. Were you a conservative or a liberal? How would you define yourself? DK: 40:00 Well, if I look back at what I was, in context of today's reality, I would say I was probably a liberal. But I just, I was still, in my mind at the time I was thinking about, you know, all these issues, how I, how I need to approach them, how I need to address them, and you know, how they affect me, and what can I do about that? You know so I did not really think of myself as a liberal or conservative. I was considering myself as someone who was trying to figure my way through this world at this point in time. Oh, yeah. So yeah, I would say, looking back, I would say I was probably a liberal but at the time I was just curious. SM: 40:41 On that, on that weekend, starting with the, when Nixon gave the speech, that we were going into Cambodia on April 30, it sent a wave around the country of protests. I mean, like, golly, I cannot even, you know, it happened on our campus. Did you attend and support all the events over those four-day periods, and on the 30th, and then the 1st, 2nd and 3rd? DK: 41:07 Well on the third, obviously I was in the, you know, the local tavern watching the speech and you know, [inaudible] to televisions, not television, televisions, remember back then we did not have huge TVs like we do now. SM: 41:20 Right-right. DK: 41:22 But I was, I was in there. And everybody was taking notes. I felt out of place. I felt like I went to a classroom out of Oakland. And it was quiet, except for whenever it was over with, there was a lot of booing. And then there was a long discussion on the way back to my dormitory, Tri Towers. And then the next day, I remember going to classes. And then I went home. I was home for the weekend. And the district youth were at our church while I was there, sort of facilitating the activities that were going on and discussions that was going in a small group, discussions about the war in Vietnam, what had happened, that sort of thing. So, I was gone Friday after classes on the 3rd, Sunday afternoon. So, I missed all that. But I was [inaudible] by Church of the Brethren, people I knew who were younger than me, year or two younger than me, helping facilitate the discussion that was going on during the district youth rally at the [inaudible] Church. SM: 42:31 When you left, Dean after the speech on the 30th and went back home, and then you came back to your campus a few days later, were you shocked to see National Guard troops there? DK: 42:43 I truly was. In fact, it was not just on the campus. I mean, it was clear up on the edge of town, South 43, the route 43 on my entrance into campus was I was driving north on 43. And we pulled up there and my dad said he saw what was happening. He said get your driver's license out your ID card out. And I will take, I will do all the talking. I said, "why?" He says, "Well, I used to be a truck driver in World War Two. I told you that. But I went through lots of checkpoints, I know exactly what to do." And he said, "just hope the guy that comes in the window is not a second lieutenant because I do not have a good respect for them. I hope it is a sergeant." And sure enough, it was some sergeant. [inaudible] had a little conversation with him about being a World War Two veteran and taking his son back to school, taking him back to, you know, Tri-Towers and the guy said, "Well, you are going to have two or three more check points before you get there. And you got to [inaudible] order here, sir." My dad said, "Do not call me sir." [laughter] SM: 43:51 Wow, I did not know about, all these checkpoints just to come back to your college? DK: 43:56 Yeah-yeah. There was a check point when we got to the edge of campus. SM: 44:01 What were they looking for? Troublemakers? DK: 44:08 Probably. [laughs] SM: 44:10 Yeah, that happened, that happened at Michigan State when I went to visit a friend of mine there and he said, "Well, you better have your ID" and I said, "why?" "Well, you will find out when you get here" and yes, they thought we were out of state agitators. DK: 44:25 Right. You got, there was not both your ID and your driver's license [inaudible] SM: 44:30 Yes. DK: 44:32 I was saying, our driver's license were paper if you were a member of Ohio. Yep. SM: 44:37 My golly. So, you got back to the campus and that, what were all the students thinking there in your residence hall? I mean, this is what the this is the third? DK: 44:50 Yes, yeah. SM: 44:54 What were they go- what was happening in the residence halls? DK: 44:56 Well, I do not know what was happening in the residence hall. I got there in time for, you know, evening meal and unpacking and that sort of stuff. But nobody was talking about it. You know, they were discussing what was going on there. People were discussing about what was happening in Cambodia. People were telling stories about how they had been stopped by two or three soldiers who had bayonets on their rifles, pointing them at them, telling them to drop their books, searching them and that sort of stuff. But yeah, there was all this uneasy feeling about what was happening. And, you know, there was a lot of discussion about that whole uneasy feeling, feeling to sum it up in a few words. SM: 45:40 Yeah, I have been doing enough of those remembrance events to hear you and Alan and all the others talk about the experience. And the fact is, I keep asking one question, where was the president? I mean, I am not talking about President Nixon, where was President White? DK: 45:57 Right. [crosstalk] SM: 45:57 Where, he was on he was in a conference waiting to get on a plane and get the heck back to the campus. I mean, I cannot understand that. DK: 46:06 Right. He was in Iowa, I think. And he came back Sunday. And that is about same time Governor Rhodes made that impassioned speech to the fire department. And I think President White just washed his hands of the issue, said the governor's been here, the governor's taken over and the National Guard have taken over and I think President White just washed his hands of the whole issue [crosstalk]. SM: 46:35 Wow, see that that is, I mentioned, I think I have mentioned that the Alan years ago, just in a conversation that is weak presidential leadership if I have ever heard one. And number one, he should have been fighting for the students. And he should have, he should have not allowed them- I well, I, you know, the governor can override him, but he should have challenged him more. DK: 46:56 Absolutely. SM: 46:57 And, and it is because he could have prevented a crisis. DK: 47:02 Yeah. SM: 47:03 And that is where you need the leadership. The next day, the day the day that really, I think, shook the world. I think you need to know this Dean that you know that the reason I am in higher education, the reason I changed my career goals. The reason it was it was because of what happened on that day. I wanted to I wanted to go into higher education as a career with a hope that I could be an administrator that could work for students, try to bring faculty, students and administrators together in harmony not in, you know, into battle. And, and I think my story is the story of thousands. DK: 47:46 Oh, yeah, [crosstalk] SM: 47:47 The loss of the loss of four precious lives and the wounding of four, or nine precious people is inexcusable. DK: 47:57 Yeah, absolutely. SM: 47:59 And as Alan and, and you, I think you all agree from a couple of conferences that it was murder. DK: 48:05 Yep. That it was. SM: 48:06 But can you explain, and this is important, because people down the road will hear this interview, and we will all be long gone. But Kent State will never be gone. And the [inaudible] the remembrance event, is going to be major. But I know right now, three people at Harpur College, who I do not even know, in their interview, said that the thing that changed their life was Kent State. DK: 48:36 Wow. Yeah-yeah. SM: 48:38 Could you desrc- could you describe that day on May 4th, in your own words? DK: 48:46 To follow up on what you were saying there, state sanctioned murder is basically what it was. You know, it was, Governor Rhodes made such derogatory remarks, he said that "We will do it. We will do anything to eradicate the problem." [phone rings] SM: 49:05 Do not worry about that noise. I am in a room here with the phone. Hold on one second. [banging] I cannot do anything about it. It is the phone. Go ahead. DK: 49:30 Basically, [inaudible] saying we have to do everything we can to-to eradicate the problem. They called us, said that we were the worst elements that we harbor in our society, that we were worse than the Brown Shirts, the Night Riders, the vigilantes. So, he was demonizing us and I think justifying his future actions that he thought might happen or maybe did not think that happened, sort of was setting the stage, being an agitator. And so that sort of gave, you know, gave people, you know, the green light to do whatever they needed to do. So yeah, something like this should never happened in this late the 20th century. SM: 50:16 Now what time, what time did you will walk over to the field? DK: 50:20 Well, I got up that morning. And although my professors’ offices [inaudible] I was not coming to classes this morning, that I would be in my afternoon classes. And that was back when you had to, you could not miss unless you were deadly ill, and you always called in to let them know you were not coming to class. That was Kent State. Because only the year before they finally allowed women and men to visit each other in our dormitory. SM: 50:47 Wow. DK: 50:49 There were not- yeah. And so, I remember getting up that morning, and walking over with a couple of my floormates to the area. And we all got [inaudible] we got lost along the way. I was planning on going to my 1:10 class. So, I had paper and a couple of pens in my pocket. So, I could put them in my notebook notes that I was taking that particular, the rest of the afternoon in my last two classes. And we were standing on the side of the hill, watching what was going on. There were a couple of people with a bullhorn, talking about the isms of the day. I was getting a little bored. And then I noticed that the National Guard, were moving around over by, in ruins of the ROTC building that were burnt down, and thought, "Well, something is going to happen here." And next thing I know there is an officer bullhorn who told us to disperse, we were illegally gathered that sort of thing. Even though there was no damage being done, there was no rioting being done. No anything other than students standing around and listening to these people with these bullhorns talking about the isms of the day. But them coming out and I have to say student, students threw lots of rocks and stones at the National Guard. But they did not get very close. They had a, they had a, I do not know if it was a security guard from the campus or, but we did have our own police department, you know [inaudible] department, or somebody from the city police, I cannot remember now, who was riding in the seat with a bullhorn. And then we went back, and students started chanting all the [inaudible] chants of the day. 1,2,3,4, we do not want your f-ing war. Pigs off campus, and the like. And then they came out with the National Guard and, you know, told us we were gathered illegally, read the Ohio Riot Act to us. And of course, students continued to throw stones, but they stayed, you know, good 100 yards away. Not too many people had the, you know, the arm of a centerfielder to play for any professional baseball team. So, there was basically no harm done there. And then I saw them go back and I saw them putting bayonets on their rifles and checking their rifles, I saw them getting out the grenade launcher that they were going to launch the tear gas canisters with, and then they all formed up in formation and poot-poot-poot. You know, half a dozen tear gas canisters went flying through the air. And of course, the area of the commons surrounded on, you know, three sides by hill- hills, I should say. SM: 53:41 Right. DK: 53:41 And it was a fairly, fairly windy day. So, there was a lot of a lot of swirling winds. So, the tear gas did not have the desired effect that they probably wanted to have because students were able to run away from the area and go up around Taylor Hall on the sides. The other side of Taylor Hall and they got out of the way, went down the hill on the other side of Taylor Hall into a parking lot where some kids eventually were shot. But I went past that and to another parking lot across the street, across midway drive. And I remember at that point in time, pulling out a baggie that I had for a wet washcloth and actually had two wet wash cloths, so I could wash off my face then rinse it off as well and, did not have anything to dry it off with but, you know, it was a windy day so it was going to dry quickly. But got the tear gas out of my eye. And I remember standing there watching them come down the hill from where I had just come and go into the practice football field, which was surrounded on three sides by a fence. And another four or 500 students were on the same hill where they had just come from, and basically formed a [inaudible] around them. So, they were totally surrounded by, you know, a chain-link fence and a group of students. And at this point in time, there were a lot of students who were throwing stones from the National Guard, but, you know, again there are 100 yards away. And so, nobody was hitting anything, the National Guard, we thought were just there to shoot tear gas at everybody. I remember one National Guard from picking up a tear gas canister and throwing it back at the students. And then I saw them huddled together. And after they huddled together, they got in formation and marched from where they had come. And then I sort of followed along, staying about 100 yards away, I was curious. I looked at my clock, and it was about 20, 25 after noon. And when they reached the top of the hill, they turned and fired. I mean, I grew up using firearms, and they are turning, and they are lifting their rifle, a very deliberate act. There was no hesitation. There was no, you know, thinking about it. As soon as they pulled those [inaudible] and pulled those rifles up, I said, "Oh, my God, they are going to shoot." I could not believe it. I was mortified. We were jumping on the ground because there was no trees to hide behind. And I was laying there hearing the shots. And all of a sudden, I heard shots landing on the ground around me, not landing but going into the ground around me. And then I got hit, and I said, "Oh, my God, what had happened." Shot me. And then I regained my consciousness quickly again, or my, my awareness, realized there was still bullets hitting the ground around me. And I thought, "Oh, my God, I hope I do not get hit again." And then all of a sudden everything stopped. But while the shooting was going on, I mean, it was chaos. People screaming and hollering. The shrill of their voice, it is just amazing. I just could not believe the noise that three or four thousand people were making, at that point in time, it was shocking to hear. Then there was a lull, a quietness. And then all of a sudden, there was more screaming, more shouting, more hollering. And then all sudden, there were people gathering around me with the look of shock and horror on their face. They were traumatized. These people were looking down at me lying on the ground. And I was not bleeding externally, my bleeding was all done internal and so there was a pool of blood that went through my-my back, it just went inside my shoulder blade, I can reach around and put my finger on the bullet hole. But it has damaged my lungs, and my diaphragm. And my vertebrae and my spinal cord, shattered three vert- three vertebrae, thoracique, 9, 10 and 11 hit me and ricocheted off of there. And the bullet is still in me, I have shrapnel all through my body. And my [inaudible] I should say and seemed like it took forever before an ambulance got there. And I remember [inaudible] the journey, putting me in the ambulance and driving off campus. And there was an odd sight I saw on my trip when I got out on Main Street headed towards Ravenna was the fact that every other telephone pole, there were telephone workers up on the poles and it is probably six of them that I saw. I thought, "Now that is an odd sight as I am going off campus here, why are all those guys up on those telephone poles?" Hospital found out later that they shut off the [inaudible] campus so there will obviously be some pre- planning going on if there was a catastrophe and, you know, they turned off all the phones then they ordered everybody to leave campus. But back to my story I remember getting to the Ravenna hospital, I remember being put on a gurney, you know, a regular hospital gurney and I remember hearing a nurse holler, "Get blood types on all these people!" and I said to myself, "I just gave blood at the blood bank last week so I got my blood donor's card and while I was digging around for it, I pulled out my other blood donor's card from Mercy Medical Center, where I have been giving blood [inaudible] high school and [inaudible] high school, and then, I thought [inaudible] need my insurance card. They are going to need my ID, my driver's license. And I had a card that I had typed up with my parents' phone numbers on it as well. Let us just go back because once I got shot and shooting stopped, I forgot to tell you this-that an African American student came over to me and asked me who I was, and did I know the phone numbers for my parents. And I gave them my parents, two work numbers because I knew they were both at work today, that day. And we went into Prentice Hall and called my parents within five minutes of me getting shot. So, they heard about it firsthand, from an eyewitness, instead of hearing about the news, and then waiting here to see if their son was all right. SM: 1:01:02 Right. DK: 1:01:03 So, my mother was the foresight that she had, she called our bishop, we do not we did not call him bishops, they were district secretaries. But they were the equivalent of a bishop, say like in the Catholic Church. And she called him, and he said, "You are lucky you caught me, if you had waited two or three more minutes, I would have been out the door on my way to Robinson Memorial Hospital [inaudible]. So, I will look him up as soon as I get there. So, he drove to Ravenna. And I was able to see him before they put me out to operate on me. And we had a little prayer and a little time together, talked a little bit. And then they gurney- wheeled me out to operate on me. So those were the things that happened to me immediately after the shooting. And then I wake up Friday morning with all kinds of [inaudible] stuck in me, and all kinds of [inaudible] and clapping and supplement breathing. Because this crazy computer aided machines, these were all mechanical machines running to keep me alive at that point in time, and when I was fully conscious, I remember like Saturday morning, the nurse came over and said, "There is an FBI agent over there who would like to talk to you." I said, “Okay, send him over." So came over, he identified himself, I do not remember his name. He says, "I got some questions for you." I said, "Oh, wait-wait, wait. Our family attorney is a guy named Harry Schmuck." And the guy sort of got a little white in the face. I said, "He is an old farm boy and I helped, helped him bale hay, and help him deal with animals. He is my attorney." And then I saw him sort of turn white, and I said, "why do you look so weird today?" "You mean, the Harry Schmuck?" "Yeah." [inaudible] He goes, "yeah, I have my [inaudible] in Cleveland," because these FBI agents were from Cleveland. SM: 1:03:19 Oh, wow. DK: 1:03:19 He worked, what was that famous murder case, the Sheppard case as it was? SM: 1:03:24 Yes-yes. DK: 1:03:26 He was. He was a young attorney on one of the, I do not know if it was the defense or in the prosecutor's office at that point in time, I think he was on the defense team. And so, you know, he was a rather flamboyant little farm boy. Harry was so [crosstalk]. SM: 1:03:46 Well, you had a good one. DK: 1:03:48 I apparently had a good one. I did not know. SM: 1:03:50 Yes, yeah. DK: 1:03:51 He was good. He It was just another farmer who was a lawyer. And every time I visited his office, the had his barn shoes sitting on a tray just inside the door of his office. So his office always smelled like horse shit and cow shit. SM: 1:04:07 [laughs] Well, he knows who his roots were. Now Dean, how long were you in the hospital? DK: 1:04:18 Well, I was in the hospital from May 4th to May 21st. In Robinson Memorial Hospital, then I was a part of this new program trying to get people from their initial spinal cord injury into a rehabilitation center as early as possible. It went from May 4th to May 21st. That is what, 17 days that I was in the [inaudible]. And then I was in the rehab center. They told me when I on my intake that I'd probably be there until February or March of (19)71 because of the seriousness of my injury, because they had to the break three ribs to get into me to manhandle all my organs to look for sharp metal, to repair the organs if they could, and they sewed up my diaphragm. And then they put me all back together. And so, I was really sore. And because I had a spinal cord injury, they could not put me on a frame with tension. So, I had to lay perfectly still on my back for four hours, then they would take six people to rotate me onto my stomach for four hours. And then they would rotate me on my side for four hours, and then my other side foot four hours. SM: 1:05:50 Wow. DK: 1:05:51 For three, three months until the hematoma the big pool of blood that was surrounding my three vertebrates finally went down. And they, you know, they then at that point in time that I was allowed to start sitting up a little bit at a time. SM: 1:06:11 Wow. DK: 1:06:13 Spent that time but I finally got out of the hospital, I defied all odds, I was being an athlete, I was motivated and know how to take care of myself. In fact, I do, I still do whatever I can, even in my horizontal space at this point in time. I do 50 Pushups every time I get into my cart, then I have a set of five-pound dumbbells that I use to exercise my arm to keep my muscle [inaudible]. So, I was able to get released from the hospital on October 25 (19)70. And I got out in time for Halloween and was able to go back to school in January, of (19)71, much earlier than expected. Yeah. SM: 1:07:04 And did you go full time for the rest of the time until you graduated? DK: 1:07:10 Yes, I did. Yes, I did, I did. SM: 1:07:13 And when did you get that degree? DK: 1:07:15 Well, because of my interruptions to my education from various things I had to do and learning how to live life as a paraplegic or a spinal cord injured person. It took me a little while, but I finally graduated (19)77. So, yeah, there was a lot of interruptions where I was part of the quarter but would not, would not be able to finish it so. SM: 1:07:42 And was that still in teaching? DK: 1:07:45 Yes, yes. It always was. SM: 1:07:48 And did you go out and become a teacher, when you left? DK: 1:07:51 I taught for 15 years as a teacher at the end of my career. Prior to that I was in politics and government. I worked for the, first my job was, my first job out of college was with the Industrial Commission, Division of Safety and Hygiene. There was a new program that was being started to help employers make their businesses accessible for their workers who came back disabled from work injuries or non-work injuries, but also to do an accessibility survey for the employers to make their businesses accessible for the disabled so that the disabled could get jobs. So, I did that for two years. And then I was approached by the Democratic Executive Chairman of Athens County and asked me if I would be interested in working for Tony Celebrezze, the newly elected Secretary of State of Ohio. And the interview had two interviews with them, and he asked me if I wanted to work for him and I told him I would. I would still be doing the same type of work, but I would be working with boards of elections and making them accessible in 18 counties in Southeast Ohio. But I knew these counties from my work with the Industrial Commission, Division of Safety and Hygiene because I was already working those 18 counties. And so, I worked for Tony Celebrezze for a couple of months, for four years. And then when he was elected the Attorney General State of Ohio, I continued to work for him. But I switched over primarily with lawyers, judges, that sort of thing. But I must say that one of the major accomplishments was when we left the Secretary of State's office, the facility we left the Secretary of State's office, 99 percent of the board of elections in the state of Ohio were wheelchair accessible. And I think that 80 percent of the polling places were now wheelchair accessible. And the last thing, last [inaudible] that he had, as a Secretary of State was, he started the process of computerized voter registration [inaudible] which I was able to facilitate by region. A lot of resistance that so I would bring the copies of the forum, leave the, there. And once I made all the stops at all eighteen counties. I started back again; I would spend the day sitting in their office. He tried to put me in some office, nope, I want to be right in the middle of everything. They set me up an office and I would sit right beside the big card catalog they had. And I would pull out the letter "A," start typing. So, I got these forms. And I think, I shamed them because by the second time around, they were already doing it. So, we started the process to get a statewide voter registration letter. And then to put it on the state computers, getting started to computerize legislation, which we now have, I think in all fifty states. SM: 1:09:21 Right. Wow, you were involved in some important work. DK: 1:11:24 I was doing some good work, I enjoyed it. SM: 1:11:27 My golly, and you know, what I really admire is that, you know, you had this setback in your, well, a major setback in your life, you never planned to be in a wheelchair, and you still went on with your life and you are doing good things. And you are giving back to is, it is, it is all about giving back to others. DK: 1:11:46 Yeah. SM: 1:11:47 And you are obviously, you know, the-the injury in terms of wheelchair accessibility, I look at campuses now. And I am sure, I even do it at Kent State when I visit, because that has been a big issue at where I used to work at Westchester, that all buildings needed to be accessible by wheelchair. And we still have one building at Westchester University that will not do it, because it is on the Historic Register. And if they had to do what they had to, they have to take some stones off of the-the outside of the building. I do not know where they are with that, but it is still wrong. The rest of the campus is all accessible, but one building is not. DK: 1:12:26 [inaudible] After I got hurt, and I was hauled away, even before I got home, when I was in the hospital. I mean, I was visited by people from I do not know how many states, but it was a lot of different states. It was all, it was in the summer, I was in the Rehab Center in Cleveland. And people would drop in out of the sky blue- professors, students and, you know, student leaders from various private and small colleges and big colleges. All came and brought me books, to spend time with them. And church leaders, many denominations came to visit me while I was in the rehab center. And so, you know, there is all this discussion about, you know, "What are you going to do next?" Well, "I want to go back and finish my education and be a productive member of society." And I got a lot of support for all of that. And I really never, never, I never had any other feeling. And the same with my family, you know, my mother heard that I would go on vacation and do something in society, whether it be, you know, working in a local community or whatever. So yeah, I mean, there was no hesitation by any of my friends, my colleagues, or acquaintances that I was not going to get up and go be a part of society. That was never even in my head to begin with that I would not withdraw from society-that I would withdraw from society, that would be a productive member of society. So yeah, there was just not there was no-no hesitation by anybody, or me. I knew I was alive. The thing here is I was thankful that I was alive. I could have been dead because you get hit with a 30-06 m1 caliber rifle. That is the same weapon my father carried in World War Two. And my father, now to the day he died, was so angry that I was shot by the same rifle that he carried World War Two. SM: 1:14:45 Wow. DK: 1:14:47 [inaudible] that the M1 Garand was used to shoot me, but he used it to help save the world from tyranny. SM: 1:14:53 Wow. DK: 1:14:54 Yeah, that is, that is- SM: 1:14:57 That is, that is something. I did not know that. DK: 1:15:01 Yeah, one sad part of his life he never overcame. SM: 1:15:06 Wow. DK: 1:15:07 Yeah. SM: 1:15:10 Over the years, when did you get to know the people that were also wounded at Kent State, and also the families of those who had died? DK: 1:15:19 Within a year, within a year, I got to meet them. Because, you know, there was lawyers who were representing all of us. All those lawyers got together, and all those lawyers got all the families together. And we started dealing with the strategy of how we were going to deal with this issue. We were going to hold the state of Ohio accountable for what they did. And so that is where I met them, I met them at a hotel in downtown Cleveland. But I had also met many of the students who were wounded at Kent State because many of them were still going to school- SM: 1:16:04 Right. DK: 1:16:06 -at Kent State. So yeah. That is how I met everybody. SM: 1:16:15 The remembrance events now, in linkage to this tragedy. This murder, as some of the programs have described what, there has been 49 years of, I believe in the very beginning, though, you were not allowed to have remembrance events? Or I do not know what was going on here that in the early stages, but this is-? DK: 1:16:41 Oh, [inaudible] SM: 1:16:41 Pardon? DK: 1:16:43 Yeah, it was a year later, they had a big commemoration. [inaudible] commemoration September of (19)70. Phil Ochs, Bang, I met the Reverend Ralph Abernathy there, I forget the other celebrities that were there as well. When you were talking about people who were, you know, baby boomers and Richie Havens. Richie Havens, I think of Phil Ochs at the same time. SM: 1:17:09 Oh, yes, definitely. DK: 1:17:11 Yeah. And so, you know, I met all those people as well. And there was a large contingency of Vietnam Veterans Against the War. And those guys were the ones that actually took care of me. When I went back in September of (19)70, they were there, and they were around me so that nothing would happen to me. SM: 1:17:41 How did your- how did your parents get through all this? Now, obviously, they were there for you as their son, but how- your mom and dad, how did they react to this the same or differently? DK: 1:17:55 Well, they both react differently. Yeah, my mother, being a being a woman, obviously, is very verbal. But the comparison I like to make is that my mother gained 50 pounds, my father lost 50 pounds. And when I talked to my neighbors later on, as I got older, I talked to my neighbors about the whole thing and found out that we had one neighbor that they went and talked to, and one neighbor describes my dad coming up there and just crying with his head on the table. And my and she would also then describe how my mother was just so anguished about what happened. And then then my siblings, you know, my sister when she got home from school, found out about it, and my parents were already in Robinson Memorial Hospital at that point in time. So, my sister basically ran the family. She was two years younger than I am. So, she was a Senior High School, and she was basically taking care of my other two siblings. I had three other siblings, I had two sisters and a brother. And she is just now in the last few years, started to talk to me about it about how [inaudible] it was and how frightening it was and how scary it was between mom and dad, the way they were reacting to what happened. And, you know, it really made a big impression on her. SM: 1:19:36 What did you personally learn from going through this tragic event? DK: 1:19:39 Well, I learned that, you know, we live in a participatory democracy and if you do not participate, you get run over. And I have, every speech I have given in my lifetime, I have always told people to register to vote. Fighting the issues, fighting the candidates and then vote. I also, I also tell people that they have to be involved. You do not have to run for office like the US Senate or whatever. You know, there is lots of kinds of things that you can do. You can either run [inaudible] Trustees, village council, you can also, you do not want to run for office, you can work on various boards and commissions, that public officials make appointments to. You know, children's services, MRDD, Alcohol and Drug Addiction committees, all kinds of activities out there that you can be involved in and be part of your government. You know, you have to, you have to be involved in making your local government thrive. [inaudible] Democracy [inaudible] like I said, it is a participatory sport. You have to be involved. You are not involved; you are not making a decision and it is important to be an active productive member of society. But I have included that in every one of my speeches. SM: 1:21:07 It is very important. Excellent. You know Kim Phuc, the girl in the picture from the Vietnam War? DK: 1:21:16 Yeah. SM: 1:21:17 Yeah, we brought her to our campus, and she talks about the whole issue of healing and so forth. I want to just; I wrote this comment down and from about her and linking with you and I want your thoughts. Kim Phuc, the girl in the picture, has devoted her life to healing and sending messages that healing is the best way to overcome tragedy. She forgives the, the, the pilots, who dropped bombs on her village where she was burned over 80 percent of her body, and she lost her brother. DK: 1:21:51 Right. SM: 1:21:51 A pain she has every day she lives with every day in her life. Have you been able to heal from a different tragedy in some way, knowing that the National Guard that did this committed a terrible crime, murder of four and wounding of nine, and will pay in the end, but you have moved on in your life and have, have you healed a little bit yourself? DK: 1:22:17 I had to work at forgiveness. And I think forgiveness is more than just saying, "I forgive," It is something you have to do regularly, almost daily, sometimes. Because I have a constant reminder about what happened to me. That reminds me of the four key students who were killed. But, you know, I am not going to forget, I wish at some point in time, one of them would give us a deathbed confession about what really happened. And, you know, it is important. And I think one of the reasons none of them have spoken up is because murder has no statute of limitations. And they are all afraid. The governor and their general were able to scare the daylights out of those people, so they are never going to talk. I just hope at some point in time, one of them will do a deathbed confession about what really went on that particular day. So yeah, I have moved on. But I have not forgotten. SM: 1:23:21 Yeah. And Dean, is it? Is it true that most of the, most of the guys that were in the National Guard have died? DK: 1:23:29 I do not know. They were not. There were not 18- 20-year-olds, like everybody talks about. [inaudible] were all close to 30 years old, so I would not doubt that they are getting [inaudible], several of them have died already. SM: 1:23:47 Right. Well, maybe, would not that be interesting if we could get one of those people to come to the event next year and tell the truth? DK: 1:23:57 Yeah. SM: 1:23:57 Would not that be and-and I think that person even though he committed to, he committed a crime, would probably get support from those in attendance. DK: 1:24:09 [agreement] SM: 1:24:10 Finally, being honest and truthful. Do you see anything in America today? How would you define the divide you see in America today in (20)19, in (20)19, are there any links to the divide in (19)70? DK: 1:24:26 Well, the only link that I see between the divide now and divide then is the fact that, to use modern terminology, they use of hate speech as continues to prevail in our society. Back that we used to call it radical rhetoric by the right or the conservatives or Republicans [inaudible] point, but I think that is the only real link that we have today. I think what we have here today is a want to be authoritarian or want to be dictator, who is frightened because he is such a corrupt person, that he does not know the consequences of his actions. Whereas Richard Nixon was very aware of the consequences of his actions and was a little more maniacal in the sense of knowing the limits of his authority, and the responsibilities he had with the office. This particular tyrant does not know the limits of the building [inaudible] knows the responsibilities that goes with the office. And then there is a small group of people out there who have no limits to begin with. And I think those are his ardent followers. So obviously, Nixon had his ardent followers, but, you know, they were they were quelled by the fact that Nixon knew the responsibilities and the job that he is after, where this guy does not know the responsibility of either. So. SM: 1:26:20 Got a couple more questions here that just give me the hi-sign here. I did not know this. I had to leave at 4:50. I thought was going to be here till 5. DK: 1:26:29 Oh. SM: 1:26:29 Let me go try to get, here is one. What do you think the lasting legacy of the (19)60s and (19)70s is? DK: 1:26:39 Well, I am not afraid to give credit where credit is due the Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act, you know, who sponsored those [inaudible]. The improvement of women's lives going forward a little bit as well. I think the improvement, the little improvement there is for the civil rights of African Americans and people who were different. The fact that, you know, people in society were not afraid to speak up about the war. There was a war, that we, that hasn't stopped our society from allowing it to happen. So, it is a mixed review. Obviously, some good things have happened. And the lessons have not been learned. Because we-we repeat some of those historical lessons that children learn. So yeah, it is an era and a time of turbulence, and education, and change. But like all eras, or generations, you never get 100 percent of what you want. SM: 1:27:50 Right. DK: 1:27:52 There will be forces out there that control the levers of power. SM: 1:27:57 Do you think we as a nation have healed since the Vietnam War as a nation, Jan Scruggs wrote a book, "To Heal a Nation." And when he wrote that book, it was about healing the Vietnam veterans who had served in that war, the ones who, obviously the families of those who died. And, and then, of course, and he and he knew he was his effort, when the-the wall opened in (19)82, that veterans are finally saying, we were welcomed home for the first time. Have we healed as a nation since the war? DK: 1:28:31 I think we have partially healed as a nation since the war. I still see the fact that veterans are dying because of their exposure to Agent Orange, getting those diseases that go along with it. And the VA's still struggling to take care of those veterans. And you have got the big chasm, the big polarization that is going on between people who were considerate and trying to make the world a better place and those who want to abuse and take advantage of the resources and the society that we have. You know, so. And is the fact that the rich keep finding excuses to deny equal pay to people of all economic status, status, statuses. But yeah, I do not think we [inaudible] heal but part of society has, some parts [inaudible] along the way. SM: 1:29:41 And then I will probably end with this, Dean because they just told me I thought I had till, I thought I had two hours here. 10 more minutes, but I am going [inaudible]. In a few sentences, or less, or even maybe a paragraph, describe the (19)60s and (19)70s in the way that only Dean can describe it. DK: 1:30:09 Well, for me personally, it was a period of growth and development. It is also a period of understanding responsibility of being a member of this great Republic that we live in. And learning the lessons that democracy only works if you participate and being part of the process of making government work. In the (19)60s, and (19)70s, (19)70s were a period of growth and development and learning to become a productive member of society. And also learning to live by life in such a way that I am proud of what I have done, and that other people can learn from examples that I, the way I have lived my life. I think that would be the probably the best way to describe. SM: 1:31:07 Do you ever, do you ever feel feelings like some people have, but others do not have. Why me? [crosstalk] Was I am in the wrong place at the wrong time? I mean, why do you ever have that feeling? DK: 1:31:24 I do not have those feelings now. But in the early days, [inaudible] after I got hurt was in and out in the rehab center and stuff, I felt that. But then I went through some good psychological counseling to deal with the issue of [inaudible] my disability, being a strong, strapping farm boy and an athlete, to understand that I can still be a strong, strapping athlete and a productive member of society through that counseling that I got, and no, I have not felt those feelings in, you know, nearly 50 years at this point in time. SM: 1:31:58 You know, it is amazing. Kim Phuc's story is a little bit like yours, but in with different circumstances. She is a very religious person, very religious. And if you have seen her, we brought her to the, well, I wish she could come to the, to the 50th anniversary, I just, it is about healing. It is about, it is about forgiving, and a lot of things but religion plays a very important part. She has got 80 percent of her body is burned. DK: 1:32:01 Right. SM: 1:32:28 But it has not deterred her spirit of healing and forgiveness. And you do not have to forgive people who have done things. But in the mere fact that you were paralyzed from the waist down by a tragedy, but you have used your experience to help the lives of others. DK: 1:32:49 Yeah. SM: 1:32:49 With your work and government with all these other things, you and Kim are two peas in a pod. You need to be in a room, you need to be in a room together and shut the door and just talk for four hours. I mean, I am serious because you have had different stories. Very serious tragedies. But you have moved on with your life and helping others. DK: 1:33:15 I have always admired her story. There is no doubt about that. SM: 1:33:19 Well, I am, I am in the process of getting a hold of her to okay her interview with me because I got pretty close to her when she came to Westchester. But in my email to her, I am going to say I would love to someday, if you can get a link up with Dean. I think I think if you could have just a conversation, just the two of you talking together. Maybe one day that can happen. DK: 1:33:43 That would be nice. That would be nice. I would enjoy that. SM: 1:33:46 Now, the last thing I am going to say is, is there any question I did not ask that you expect, you thought I might ask? DK: 1:33:53 Well, actually, you are pretty thorough. And if you have any future questions, do not be afraid to get a hold. SM: 1:33:58 Yeah, well, I have been cut about 20 minutes off my interview here, but I will let you know that Dean. And- DK: 1:34:04 Well, I will keep this phone number in my directory with your name, so. SM: 1:34:08 Okay, yep. Okay, will do and what will happen here as we will be after this interview, the Center here will get the tape, they will mail it to your email address. So, I need your email address. DK: 1:34:24 It is just my first name and my last name deantaylor@gmail.com. SM: 1:34:31 Okay. At gmail.com? DK: 1:34:35 Yep. SM: 1:34:36 Alright, I do not know when they are going to do it, but I just, you are the second interview I had today, and they will send it to you for you to listen to and okay it. And then I think I have a picture of you already that I took of you, so I do not have to worry about a picture. So. DK: 1:34:50 Okay. SM: 1:34:51 All right, Dean, thank you very much. May God bless and may you continue to be, you know, be healthy. I will be thinking of you as you are battling. I guess you are not feeling very good right now. DK: 1:35:05 I am feeling good. I just felt hurt myself two years ago, and I have had all kinds of complications related since then. But I am getting there. I am getting to the point where my body is healing, so I am in good shape. SM: 1:35:18 Well, you are very important person to be around. So, you know, I look forward to seeing you at Kent State. Definitely next year. DK: 1:35:27 Absolutely. SM: 1:35:28 And, and I will be in touch with you, you thank you very much. DK: 1:35:32 You are welcome, Steve. Take care. SM: 1:35:33 Yeah, you bet. Bye now. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dean Kahler https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8d5394a5fba16d06a0c580ad18e29c97.jpg 70973c854a47998ba29fb872ac3b8c56 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ec29310de27fe74d47533913e95c11f5.MP3 3cc7bd834caff21836c8b56b8203a797 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 8/7/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Mitch Pearlstein Biographical Text Dr. Mitch Pearlstein is an editorial writer, columnist and founder and former President at the Center of the American Experiment. Prior to that, he served in the U.S. Department of Education, during the Reagan and George H. W. Bush administrations. He received his Bachelor's degree in Political Science from Binghamton University, and he has a Ph.D. in Education Administration from the University of Minnesota. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 02:18:32 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Baby Boomer generation; Binghamton University Guarneri String Quartet; American policy; 1960s; Young Americans for Freedom; Anti-War Movement; Vietnam War Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Dr. Mitch Pearlstein Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger Date of interview: 7 August 2019 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:02 SM: First off Mitch, I want to thank you very much for doing this. I appreciate it very much and– 00:07 MP: Happy to. 00:07 SM: Yep, the first question I try to ask most of the people I have interviewed is to tell us a little bit about your background, where you grew up, your early family life, your early years before you even attended Harpur College. And some of the impact of that early life on your life. 00:25 MP: Well, that will take the first hour, that is not bad. I grew up in Queens. It was born the actually in Brooklyn, the old Bedbell Hospital, which is I have been told the Brookhaven Medical Center and has been that for a long, long time, but do not hold me to any of that. I am 71. Spent the seven years, in Sunnyside in Queens, Long Island City. I am the first of three kids. My brother Robert is twenty months my junior and my sister Andy, who I say is Andrea and she says Andrea, she is nine years my junior. So we were in Sunnyside, as I say, for seven years at PS 150 which is where David Horowitz went to school go I think seven years before I was there. We moved to Far Rockaway in, also in Queens right on the beach, when I was I suspect seven and started off at PS 215. Over time that led to junior high school 180 and then Far Rockaway High School. My father was in sales and for a period, was in management- if you are familiar with the Modells Shoppers World? 01:32 SM: Oh, yeah. 02:05 MP: He was with them for a long, long time. He actually was with a firm called the [inaudible] “D" as in "dog", A, "V" as in "victor," E, G A sporting goods and they were purchased by Modells or [inaudible] in the late (19)50s or so. So he had essentially his entire career there. My mother did not work outside of the home until all the kids left home. And my father was not pleased about his wife working outside of the home, quite traditional in that sense. At the risk of sounding unkind and all it was not an educated family from which I came, at least in terms of school credentials and all. My father was a high school graduate, my mother was a high school dropout her parents never learned how to read. I was one of the first people in the family, certainly on my mother's side to go to college. I was a wonderful student up and through sixth grade. I tell people I did poorly in high school and junior high school because I had worked so hard and sixth grade I had burned out. Not too many people believe this. I was lazy as the short answer. We want to get what therapeutic, I was troubled in some fashion. I just did not do my work. And this was early in the baby boomer time, going off to college, meaning there were more kids to school than they were in necessarily seats. And I had a hard time getting in any place. I graduated high school barely I suspect, in (19)66- my test scores were pretty good- when I say just barely [inaudible] and see what I suspect. I got out of high school well enough but I had done lousy and the City University system to its great credit and through my everlasting gratitude put together very-very quickly for the class graduating in (19)66, City University College centers they were called attached to I think five of the community colleges, and these were places where kids who could not even get into a community college at the time and the SUNY system. And that saved me, I do not know, I do not remember exactly what I would have done, it would, if that had not happened I would've gone to school someplace, but probably would have cost me or my family. So I attended for one year. And these were one year programs, The City University College Center at New York City Community College, which is a mouthful, was in a warehouse in downtown Brooklyn. And this is when I came to realize that beer is a far better motivator than self-esteem or anything of the sort. At least that was my interpretation afterwards. I figured that this was my last chance. If I continued to screw up, I would not have a career. So I worked very hard, and did quite well. And after one semester, I had a 3.8 if I recall. 02:05 SM: Yep. Oh, that is great. 06:00 MP: And applied, I said I was going to apply to the four university centers in the SUNY system. And the way it worked, I think Stony Brook's application came in first, but they did not want to stay on Long Island. Binghamton came in second. So I applied to Binghamton. One of them, Albany or Buffalo never came in and I just did not bother with the other because I knew with the 3.8 I was pretty good for Binghamton to offer. And that is the way it worked. So that was a turning point. I did well academically and over the next several years, sometimes I did exceed extremely well, academically and another times not. It always had to do with my working hard or not working hard or being involved in the antiwar movement, frankly. 06:56 SM: Right. 06:57 MP: Or having my heart broken by some female. And that is a rough description- 07:06 SM: Well, that fits right into the- 07:07 MP: [inaudible] my life until I got to Binghamton, you know. 07:11 SM: Yeah that, my next question was, how and why did you choose Harpur? You just explained it beautifully. And but the some of the questions I wanted to ask about your Harpur years here is, what activities were you involved in at the school, including some of the groups you joined? And how would you describe your four years at Binghamton between (19)67 and (19)70, ah (19)66, I guess (19)67 and (19)70, your three years. 07:17 MP: Thank you. Yeah, it was three years. I came in as a sophomore. I played baseball, I was a pitcher on the baseball team. I had grown up playing baseball. As a kid. I was pretty decent. Played in high school, but I was not so decent then, they were better players that I was at the time. Got to Harpur and got on to the baseball team. I was a pitcher and I actually started opening day and my junior year. 08:13 SM: Wow. 08:14 MP: Yeah, guess who I do not recall necessarily. I did beat Stony Brook in a complete seven inning game, was part of a doubleheader and that was as a junior. 08:24 SM: Wow. 08:24 MP: But overall, I had a losing record in the lousy ERA. But I have remained close friends with my old coach. For example, John Affleck. AFFLECK. Who, looking back, he was not much older than the ballplayers at the time. He is in Florida now, has been there for a while though, he summers in Ontario. I have not seen him since I was in Binghamton last which was, I think for my 40th class reunion, so that would have been nine years ago, but we stay in touch a couple of times a year with emails back and forth and some of the old ballplayers are people who myself stay in touch with. If someone is sick, and someone sends out an email about how folks are doing or something, perhaps happier, we will have a couple of emails going between and among us. That will happen about twice a year. 09:30 SM: Do you [inaudible]- Do you remember coach Schum? 09:35 MP: Oh, of course him. Very well. I remember all of the coaches for the most part, I suspect quite well, in part, in large part because I was a student there. And then I worked there, we will get to that. And then I was a reporter for the Sun-Bulletin and I did sports for a while so I knew these folks reasonably well, yeah. 09:58 SM: Yeah, coach Schum was, did all the gym classes. And I remember going to my first gym class there. And he did not read the names off. He read the social security numbers off. [laughs] Yeah. And he said, "Alright, you should know your social security number by now." And, of course I knew I did not. And-and so he is reading all the social security numbers and he comes to mine, and then he just says it again. And I, "McKiernan!" I never forgot my social security number after that. What, Mitch, you were involved, talk about some of the, your out of classroom experiences that were during your years at Binghamton, whether it be involved in any protests or activist activities, going to meet speakers that came to campus during that very tumultuous time, any programs and inspired you, just things that happened during those three years before you graduated in (19)70? 10:12 MP: Did he really? Well, let us, uh, technically, I graduated in (19)71. I was seven credits short. But I got the bureaucracy a couple of years later to change my class to what I viewed as my real class, (19)70. So, when I get a mailing, it will say Pearlstein (19)70, which probably illegal where that is concerned, in the interest of full disclosure. We will get into, let us let us delay for a moment the political stuff and the anti-war stuff. We will talk about a couple of other things. I have spoken about on a number of occasions out here about how the Guarneri String Quartet, you remember Guarneri? 11:58 SM: Oh, yeah, they were excellent. Yes. 12:00 MP: More than excellent. Guarneri, they had formed, I think, only about two years earlier (19)65. And they were in residence at Binghamton starting in about (19)67. And I do not read music, I had no real musical background at the time, other than being in the chorus in seventh grade and carousel, at junior high school 180, then being kicked out of Oklahoma, like, in eighth grade because I finally realized I could not sing. So I had no real musical background. But I would attend their rehearsals, they would do rehearsals in the dorms, in the lounges of the dorms. And when they were in Champlain where I was like, I would sit in. And to me, it was just fascinating to hear not just the great music, but they would play about four bars, and then they would stop and talk about it or argue about it. And they would hear things that I simply would not hear. And that has been a metaphor in some respects. I am a passionate listener of Minnesota Public Radio, classical Minnesota Public Radio, I listen all the time, I have not listened to anything else for a while. Probably could use a little variety. I have been on a radio show that they, oh excuse me, a feature that they do Minnesotans and their music. And they had me on about half dozen years ago, I talked about what kind of music moves me and talking about classical music. And I would tell the Guarneri story. That sticks with me that really does. What sticks with me also is life in the dorm in Champlain. When I was back nine years ago for the 40th, number of us from Champlain were interviewed and I made the point that something along the lines, when you live in a dorm you got to do what is right. Otherwise people will think you are a jerk. It is your family. And people think you are a jerk. That is not going to be good for you. So you work hard. I worked hard. Not that it was all that hard to do what was right. I am not expressing this real well. I was not going to do anything terribly wrong, but it was a matter of being just a good classmate, a good citizen. And that was my family and that sticks with me, we will leave various affairs of the heart out of this conversation. I was a political science major, and at times, I was really quite good. And other times I was not so good as a student, I was sporadic as that. I did not join a whole bunch of things. And this might be the segue to talking about various political and anti-war activities. Going back to growing up again, I grew up in a very let us just say, left-leaning environment. First of all, it was Queens, it was New York City, it was the (19)60s. My father had grown up, if not as a socialist, very much to the left, as was the whole family as was the entire environment. Jewish environment, lower middle class environment. He was a member of workman circle. Folks are familiar with that fraternal organization, which is interesting, very much on the left, but very much anti-communist. We can get into it, perhaps remind me, that I am all for conservatives who have been anti-communists, but most conservatives have never met one. Whereas people on the web certainly have not. It has been their responsibility in many instances, to purge bad communist influences from different kinds of organizations. We can talk about Max Kampelman, if you would like, you would have to remind me to do that. But at any rate, I was not perpetually part of that political ethos. And in (19)65, when I was 17, and William F. Buckley Jr., Bill Buckley, ran for mayor of New York, I worked on his campaign. Not in a senior position, I assure you, I handed out literature in Rockaway. And this was, let us just say any number of family members were taken aback by this. And they were hoping that it was a phase but it was not a phase. There was something about Buckley that I responded to quite well, there was something about politics of him, responsible right side of the aisle that I responded to quite well. And, in keeping with that, I supported US policy in Vietnam when I was in high school and through my freshman year at-at the City University College Center in New York City Community College. And I was still supportive of US policy when I got to Binghamton in the fall of (19)67. Needless to say, the environment was quite different. Not that anybody was thinking over the head change. It was not until, if I recall correctly around December of (19)67, that I began to think differently, Harrison Salisbury, the journalist from Minnesota actually, came to town to give a lecture. And he made it clear to me at the time that for the United States to win, it would have to do some things that would simply be unacceptable, such as "Bomb the dikes," as I recall him saying. And in time, during that period, I came out against US policy. A key point to keep in mind here is that while many of the people in the anti-war movement, particularly those who were clearly on the left, wanted, wanted the US to lose, and who thought that American involvement in Southeast Asia was a sign of US evil. I, on the other hand, did not view it as a good thing if the United States was to lose, and that it was not, American involvement of Vietnam was not sign of anything sinister about the United States. But it had been a mistake, it was a well-intentioned albeit mistake, to get involved in the way that we did. And sometime as we approached, got into my senior year, as you may recall, that was when I suspect you may have talked to other people about this, that a coalition was pulled together. Under, if I recall correctly, the heading was a student mobilization committee. And by the way, I have on my wall poster that we did. That said, something about- I can get exact language if I get up and walk four feet, about, talking about the war, talking about it together at the courthouse at noon, on October 15 (19)69 which corresponded with the big first student mobilization day in DC. And I was asked to be, or wound up, as a member of that coalition, we were talking about good friends like Ivan Charter, with whom I am still very much in touch with. I interviewed him for the last book. And we have spoken to friends with Kathy and we plan on being at Binghamton for our 50th come next year. Elliot Maisie was part of that as well. If you remember, if you have ever heard the name, Peter Gellert, GELLERT, Peter was a member of the Socialist Workers Party, a real-life Marxist. Who still is, by the way is living in Mexico has been there for a long time. He was part of the coalition. And I became in some ways the spokesman for this group, Ivan was the chair of great leadership skills. Elliot made the great organizational skills. I was the spokesman because I could get along reasonably well with all elements in this coalition. And I spoke reasonably well, interested in the media. So I was the one on October 15 (19)69, to represent SMC on the podium, in front of City Hall during that during that demonstration. Julian Bond, by the way, was in town and he also spoke and- 22:51 SM: Wow. 22:51 MP: -what I recall, it was the women in the crowd being far-far more interested in what he had to say than what I had to say. So, I was quite involved in antiwar activities, though, my interpretation of things, my sense of the country was often quite different from those of many of the people at school. 23:26 SM: Yeah, I, what is amazing about those years of Binghamton, I can remember being in the Union many times and, and the theatre group would, Guerrilla Theater would come in. Do you remember that happening all the time? Where the– 23:40 MP: Vaguely [crosstalk] 23:41 SM: Yeah, I think they come out of nowhere. And I have done some studies on Guerilla Theater during the (19)60s, and it was so very creative, very anti-war. Then there was another event that you might remember that really, I came to school one morning, and the entire quad in front of the administration building had signs on it. And it was like, they were all anti-war signs. And a group- 24:07 MP: Yeah, I vaguely recall that as well, that might have been the year prior, but I could be wrong. 24:13 SM: Yeah. Well, I do not think the administration liked the fact that it was done. But- 24:17 MP: I suspect not, no. 24:17 SM: [laughs] No, but it was almost there was no space on that quad there were so many signs put up and it was it was very well done. You walk through it. And then I can remember also when Governor Rockefeller came to campus to open the garden there near the theater department, that that open area there and I remember students protesting on Vestal Parkway and trying to block him coming in because they he kind of represented the establishment and so forth. And then of course the-the Harpur did not have any, they did not allow ROTC on campus and whenever the military recruiters came, the students protested in the administration building. So, there is, there is a lot. 25:00 MP: Yeah, I protested. I was opposed to those protests. I remember when Rockefeller was on campus, and I was very much opposed to the protests against him. As I say, I was not [inaudible] at that point this was prior to (19)69. I was, my goodness, by the student radical standards of the day, I was some kind of right winger, I would imagine. But I was opposed to various protests of various kinds. I was, frankly, I was more of a moderate, I was more of an establishmentarian. As I said before, the key was that I did not view American involvement in Vietnam or anyplace else as a sign that we were a rotten nation, did not see it that way at all. 25:55 SM: If you were describ- if you were to put a label, and I know, I do not like labels many times but if you were to put a label on yourself, you told me about your high school years and your first year at Cooney. What about when you were Harper would you con- be considered a conservative, a liberal or you do not want to be the either-either one? 26:14 MP: Well working backwards, I am the founder of a conservative free market think tank in Minnesota. We have been up and running for 29 years. I worked in the Reagan administration at the end of the US Department of Education in the first couple of years. The first Bush administration, well a year each I suspect, this was back in (19)87 through (19)90. So in real ways, I am a conservative now. I arrived at Binghamton, as I was saying, liking Bill Buckley. I modeled, by the way, a senator of the American Experiment the think tank, after Bill Buckley in many ways, civil and academic. And we would have people on this show. And they would be quite decent to each other. But the conversation was vivid. That is how I to make American Experiment. In many ways, this is exactly how we have been for going on three decades. I would have viewed myself by (19)69, (19)70. I was, you know it is a good question. Left, right. Did not does not feel right. At this moment, thinking back that way. Not that that sentence makes any sense. Maybe the best way. A moderate of the times or a moderate- among antiwar activists, I was more moderate than many. How is that? 27:52 SM: Mitch, that is a good description. I think it is excellent. The- would you consider the campus itself, now consider the student body during that time that you were at Binghamton, and you can include not only the time that you were a student there, but I know you also worked for the president. That that came into power after Dr. Deering. Would you consider the campus an activist campus? 28:38 MP: Following back up for a second, I did not work in the administration until (19)72. And that was when [inaudible] Bill McGrath became president. It was not right after Deering. I think Stew Gordon was right after Deering. So there was this interlude, and I was well out of school by the time Peter arrived in (19)72. Was it an activist campus? Sure. in spirit, we were blowing up things, as was the case some other places and that was good. That was very good. But it certainly was. Call it a counterculture ish kind of activism, in many ways when I got there. And when did you get there, by the way? 29:39 SM: Well I got there in (19)67. 29:41 MP: Yeah, that is exactly when I got there. If I recall correctly, the enrollment was a grand total of 2700. 29:46 SM: Yes, it is yes. 29:49 MP: And in terms of some demographics, and I have written about this, I cannot recall more than a half a dozen, conceivably a dozen African American students on campus at the time, things there and elsewhere in American education, higher education changed dramatically starting a year later after Dr. King was assassinated. So this was an exceedingly white place, an exceedingly downstate place, an exceedingly Jewish place. Other places has hippies, we had sickies as you may recall, I was not a sickie by any stretch for heaven's sakes, I was a baseball player. And I remember writing a letter through what was still the colonial news about how the sickies were making an absolute mess of the Student Center. They were slobs, they were leaving stuff all over the place and it was a political statement, I suspect, to be slobs. I was not that. I might not have been the tidiest person that my wife now can tell you that that is indeed the case. But I was certainly not have that lefty counterculture artistic spirit. I was a social science major. We played baseball. But I got along well, as I have always gotten along well with just about everybody. 31:31 SM: I think one of the things, you look at the culture, I look a lot at the music that was brought to the campus during that timeframe that we were there. And when you think of the names of Richie Havens, The Turtles. 31:47 MP: Yeah. 31:48 SM: Yeah, you have got The Chambers Brothers. You got Judy Collins, you have got Ella Fitzgerald. Remember she sang in concert there along- 31:57 MP: I was at that one, I remember that one. 31:59 SM: Yeah, that was unbelievable. Duke Ellington came, Oscar Peterson, Paul Butterfield Blues was loved by the Harpur students, they loved him. And-and of course, we had Mountain there and-and Arlo Guthrie and Lovin' Spoonful, the music, and of course, how can you forget the concert with Iron Butterfly, the concert that they thought they had two sets booked and they only had one and the Harpur students were on stage breaking the guy's drumsticks because they wanted to have two sets. But the music was really kind of counterculture when you think about it. 32:39 MP: And yeah, I will buy that. So, you are talking to someone who had a crush on Lainie Kazan from (19)63 to (19)70. So musically, I was not necessarily in that spirit. I was a [inaudible] well want to be forever known in the archives as being an old fart. Yeah, sure. Why not. 33:13 SM: [laughs] Okay, I got that down there now, Nick. And that has to be quoted at the 50th anniversary, the old fart. [laughs] I think you have already answered this one too, did you know at BU that you wanted, what you wanted to become in life? Well, you know, you are talking about your experiences of you know, difficulty with school in the beginning, and then becoming a very good student. And again, doing excellent on tests coming to a very academic school and Harpur, and being a political science major. I know you have gone on to create a- an unbelievable organization, something you should be very proud of. I mean, historic. But did you did you know what you were going to become? How are you evolving during that time as a person as you were approaching that graduation day in (19)70? 34:06 MP: Good question. Part of the context is where any number of our classmates simply assume they wanted to be doctors or lawyers. I did not grow up in that kind of environment. I had high school friends and junior high school friends who did grow up in that environment and did become lawyers and doctors and rich people. But that simply was not my environment with lower middle class. I did want to be a lawyer I think for about a day and a half while I was at Harpur but I overcame, it must have been a drug reaction or something or other. What I recall, I recall wanting to be a political speech writer. I could write well, I was interested in politics. And there was something about being a speech writer that intrigued me. That or I assumed that I would wind up in a decent job in middle management someplace. So my aspirations in that instance, were not all that high. And were constricted by the fact that I just did not know much about more elevated professions earlier on. Also, it is interesting, I think back. I probably felt more pressure every semester, that Binghamton, not because it was Binghamton, but because taking college seriously taking, well, in this instance, taking my undergraduate life seriously, it was hard. And I had to force myself to do my work sometimes, because I was not consistently disciplined. And at some level, I do not want to overstate this, but at some level, I wanted to drop acid about every semester. I never got close to doing that. But that was the sense that I had and when I talked about sometimes being a good student, sometimes not. There were a couple of classes where I was the only "A" there in that particular class. [inaudible] I think, Richard Dec Legion, and another. On other occasions, I just screwed up terribly. And as things turned out, I did wind up as a speechwriter. I wound up later on as a speech writer for Peter McGraw. When we got out here to Minnesota, I was a speech writer out here for three years. And several years later, I was the speech writer for about two years for the governor, for a guy by the name of Al Quie, QUIE, that was (19)81, (19)82. So that worked out, and I did do my stints in Washington at the Department of Education. I was an editorial writer and a columnist for The St. Paul paper. That was (19)83 to (19)87. So that was in keeping with a spirit of what I was thinking earlier, I had never viewed myself thinking back while I was in school as a potential journalist. I thought I wrote well enough, frankly, I knew I wrote well enough. But I never thought I could write fast enough to be a journalist. And yeah, here is a, here is a chapter that is interesting. You remember, David Bernstein, who was the editor and co-owner of the Sun-Bulletin who ran for Congress in (19)70. 38:15 SM: Yes. 38:17 MP: I was on his staff. I got paid $50 a week, somehow I could live on that. And I was an advanced person, I guess, I guess, the best way of describing what I did, and he lost as to be expected, as a Democrat. And I wound up right after that, working for him, pulling together a collection of his editorials. And he wrote one virtually every day, from the middle of (19)61, when he bought the paper and this is now at the end of (19)70. And his wife, Adele, was very much interested in doing a collection of his pieces. He was a brilliant writer, as clear as clean as you could possibly imagine. Got a job as working for him. And I read every single editorial he wrote during that period, and I would pull out excerpts. And the idea was to make a book out of them. And it would have been a fine book, but he lost interest. But this was a number of recessions ago and every time I finished a degree it seemed that it was a recession. And I needed a job. And he offered me a job as a reporter at the Sun-Bulletin. And I turned down because I as I say, I did not think I could write fast enough. He offered is again, I turned them down again. And by the third time I said yes, needed a job and I remember to the extent that I could remember anything for the first three weeks, hardly ever picking up my hand from my desk. I was concentrating so hard on what I was doing. But I was a reporter there, and did that for 13 months until getting to the heart of our conversation. I guess in some respect, though, this is now the (19)70s. I resigned one morning at 1:30 in the morning, after doing my police rounds, I was a police reporter at that point. And this was a night Nixon announced the mining of Haiphong and the bombing of Hanoi. 40:34 SM: Right. 40:35 MP: And I said that it, and I did civil disobedience by 7:30 in the morning, in front of the old, I guess was the old courthouse or the federal courthouse. In, in in Binghamton. So that was the end of that portion of my journalistic career. I wound up again, as an editorial writer at The Pioneer Press newspaper in St. Paul, state from (19)83 to (19)87. It was after doing that for four years, I went off to Washington. I did not give you a clear sequencing of that period. If you want, I can do that. 41:20 SM: I know, you also got your PhD at the University of Minnesota, correct? 41:25 MP: Yeah, I am going to forget that. 41:26 SM: Oh, okay. [laughs] 41:29 MP: The idea, the idea was for me when I came out here with-with Peter, in (19)74. And I can, now that is a good story, frankly, if you want to get into that though it is not the (19)60s. The idea was for me to work for him part time, and go to graduate school, part time. And once I got out here, I knew that was not going to work, there was too much work to do for Peter, and I needed more money than being paid half time. So I essentially put off graduate school for three years, I think, four courses during that interim. And then it was time to go back full time to graduate school. So I, I left Peter's employ in (19)77. And I was a full time graduate student from (19)77 to (19)80. And I wound up doing frankly, about the fastest PhD, I know. I worked very, very hard. I was terrifically disciplined and the fact that I had just gotten divorced, and I had a lot of time on my hands. And I finished off in (19)80 and I was I was good as a, as a graduate student, wrote a, if I do say so, an exceedingly good dissertation on Jewish attitudes towards affirmative action admissions in higher education. 42:54 SM: Wow. 42:55 MP: And I finished off and found out that the academic world and other worlds could care less that I had just done that. 43:05 SM: Well, that is– 43:06 MP: What I– 43:07 SM: Wow. 43:07 MP: -that is working for Al Quie-took a while. But I wound up working as a speech writer. And my first thought was, I had been a speech writer. And I went to graduate school to get a doctorate. So, I would not necessarily have to be a speech writer, I could write for myself. But then I realized I needed a job again, and too being a speechwriter for a governor who I respected a great deal was, as they say, not chopped liver. And that turned out to be a great experience. 43:40 SM: Before we go on to the-the organization that you created, the major organization, I want to ask some just some general questions about the (19)60s, the (19)60s and the early (19)70s. What has been the overall impact of your generation, the boomer generation on America? And, you know, if it is positive, why and if it is negative why? 44:06 MP: I like macro questions, whether or not I am prepared to answer I do not know. The clichéd answer, which is not to say it is incorrect, is that the (19)60s were a time of expanding social justice. Women, certainly. racial minorities, certainly. Maybe the early Inklings when it comes to gay rights, the environment, certainly all that is, is well known and much of it is to be admired and be thankful for, no question. At the same time you I often view the (19)60s as when the United States got real close to having a nervous breakdown. And that was not good. Not necessarily as logical and as rational sometimes, as we needed to be. Too emotional. What do they, I forget who wrote it. Could have been a conservative rabbi. This goes back some time I am guessing in the (19)80s when he paid his respects as I do, to religious conservatives, mostly Christian, who saved the country from going nuts in Thailand. And that-that sense of order, which is not to say, an excessive or undemocratic, unfree sense of order, but I believe an ordered liberty, let us put it that way. I like that term. I liked the concept. And we needed people on the right to say, "Hey, let us slow down, let us think this one through, let us not get completely crazy. Let us not assume for a moment that the Vietcong were really the good guys and they were a bunch of agrarian reformers." Rooting for the communists to win is never a good idea. So, I look back on the (19)60s, I am proud of what I did, for the most part. I wish we had done something different in the antiwar movement. Without question, we thought too poorly of the country. Without question we treated soldiers dreadfully. Without question, we assumed the other side were a bunch of good guys often, and to our activisting. So, it very much of a of a mixed bag. You know, I think that the one time, I am not real proud of how I viewed matters back then, was the night of Kent State. 47:39 SM: Oh yeah. 47:39 MP: Which was what, something like May 4th of (19)70, something like that? 47:43 SM: Yeah, yes. 47:44 MP: And we had a big meeting at I guess it was in the, could have been women's gym, what was then the gym-gym, I guess? And remember the name Tommy Tuchman? 48:00 SM: Oh, yes. 48:02 MP: Tommy was a friend. He was up there speaking. And he was he was being a tad extreme and crowd was going nuts in support of what he was saying, and this was not good. And I find myself caught up in that. I had been really, really angered by Kent State and that was one time I was going over the line. And being a radical in spirit, and say I am not a radical person by any stretch and have not been. I think some of the excessive identity politics of this era now and going back decades, certainly grew out of the (19)60s. I think we have spent far too much time in this country, though I understand why focusing on questions of race and ethnicity. Not good. And that certainly grew out of the out of the (19)60s. I used the term back then. It came to me in about, might have been around (19)72. But do not hold me to that, naive cynicism. And there was a lot of naive cynicism at the time. In many ways. I saw that and still see that as a paramount sense at the time. It is one thing to be cynical, if you have to use the expression, been around the block several times, you have some age to and you are cynical. I think [inaudible] cynical is overstating matters, you should not be, but it is understandable. But when you are 19 years old, and you do not know very much, and you are cynical, that does not fit. It does not fit the decency of this nation. It is not good for your mental health. It is not in keeping with reality. And to the, again, the extent that I have problems with the (19)60s into the (19)70s, it is precisely that. And when we talk about the (19)60s, as you well know, it is not just the (19)60s, it is well into the (19)70s. 50:47 SM: Yes. 50:48 MP: And so much of the craziness. And the rest that we associate with the (19)60s, stretch into the (19)70s, and often got started in the (19)70s. 51:06 SM: And, Mitch, I want your thoughts on this too, when I interviewed Lee Edwards, and of course, he is a great historian himself. And he teaches a course on the (19)60s at the at a Catholic school in Washington right now. And one thing that stuck out in that interview more than anything else was when historians or sociologists or people who write about the (19)60s or experienced the (19)60s, it is always about the liberal activists. You do not hear– 51:34 MP: Right. 51:34 SM: -about the conservative activist, and we are talking about when you talk about the antiwar movement, the Young Americans for Freedom are never discussed. Yet they were conservative, but they were against the war, too. 51:49 MP: You are absolutely right. And I think I mentioned this to you in one of our previous conversations. And I am happy you have brought that up. Yeah, it shows a certain myopia on my part, that I am just thinking of the left, but without question. [inaudible] were the roots of Goldwater, they were the roots of Reagan, as it turned out a dozen years later, if you were starting off in (19)68. Absolutely, absolutely true. A couple of books. I think I have mentioned Rick Perlstein to you. 52:28 SM: Yes-yes. Yes. I think I have all his books. 52:31 MP: Yeah, who is not a relative. He spells his name wrong. That is the reason why. But I thought his book on Goldwater was terrific. And I was not the only person on the right, who viewed it as terrifically fair, as it was, and he is a person of the left. So that is, and one needs to take all that into account. In many ways. That spirit, that movement has had more to do with shaping the nation, or at least as much over the subsequent decades as stuff on the left. And David from his book about the (19)70s. I forget what it was called. But he writes about how so much of what we associate with the (19)60s is really the (19)70s that has shaped so much. Oh, absolutely [inaudible] you. 53:29 SM: So, there is this obser- Mitch, there is another observation. If you remember Colonel Harry Summers, who passed away in I think around (20)00, he wrote the almanac on the Vietnam War, and, and we were going to have at West Chester University to talk at our traveling Vietnam memorial. But he- 53:48 MP: Were ya? 53:49 SM: -he became so sick, he could not come. But he said he, well his speech was going to center on the fact that when you when professors are teaching, the (19)60s in on university campuses today, he says what they always forget to conclude in the teaching, is the military point of view. I am not, he said, "I am not saying it is right, but you have got to include that if you are going to be, you know, teach the teaching the reality of what it was like back then. It is not just the antiwar movement. It is also the, you know, the military point of view, and again you can like it or dislike it. But there is truth to that." 54:31 MP: Of course, that is true. And I am sitting here thinking about how I have focused on one side of the equation or not the other over the last 40 minutes or so. But at Binghamton and that is what we are talking about, principally. 54:49 SM: Right. 54:50 MP: Things on the right side of the aisle simply were not part of the equation. 54:53 SM: I agree. 54:55 MP: And to the extent there was any sense of the right and left, right in those times were fundamentally different from the left, right now. You would think about, remember Joe Pyne, the? 55:13 SM: Yes, his TV show, yes. 55:16 MP: Yeah. I suspect if anybody thought about what was on the right, and it was crazy people like Joe Pyne. And so there, there was not a sense for the most part of articulate, educated, sensible, enlightened notions of the right or people on the right at the time on-on campus. I just do not recall that. 55:42 SM: I remember the Joe Pyne interview with Paul Krassner. [laughs] It was hilarious. Paul was, Paul, you know Paul just passed away recently, and one of the original yippies but and but it was classic to see the two of them together on TV. A real fast response to this, I think we may have already covered it, if you were to describe the students or overall youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, please describe in your own words, the qualities you most admire or dislike. 56:18 MP: Alright, let us start on the negative side. And let us use the term I just used, naive cynicism. To what extent that that was true, or how many young people it covered, I cannot say. But let us use when Rockefeller came to campus. That really did not have anything to do with the war. I think I was a sophomore at the time I had just arrived. And the idea of protesting a governor, Republican though he might be because that is what students should do. Complaining about this or that, that to me was not responsible. It was not mature, you know, jumping ahead. 10 years ago, 11 years ago during the recession, SUNY students, I think throughout the system, not just Binghamton at the time, were protesting that tuition would go up by something like $300 to $400 a semester because of the cutback because the nation was in the worst recession, worst economic downturn since the Great Depression. And I wrote a column up here. I think it ran in the Star Tribune, the Minneapolis paper, about this refusal to acknowledge the importance of personal sacrifice, that the nation was going through this atrocious period. And students were complaining big time, they were whining about having to pay a couple of hundred bucks more of a semester, which I just viewed as unrealistic. I view that as selfish, or viewed it as immature. And I had just seen or a number of years, I guess a number of years earlier a number of years earlier. Remember the movie Radio Days? Yes. Woody Allen's Radio Days, which was set in Rockaway, by the way, and Rockaway Beach about seven miles from where I grew up. And in order for that family to make do they had an aunt living in that small house and they had, may have had a grandparent or two. And that is what people did during the (19)30s, they-they make necessary sacrifices to make it work. And now we are in, the year was we are approaching (20)10. And we were in this terrible situation in this country. And students. We are refusing to pay an extra couple of hundred bucks which is not going to be easy. But a couple of pairs of sneakers would do it frankly. And so that is the connection. When I was talking about Rockefeller a moment ago, a refusal to recognize some reality and the refusal to do what is right. And in some ways, for all the decent things young people did at the time, that is also what I recall. I thought protesting Rockefeller, because he was not building something on campus quickly enough or something along those lines. That simply was not my style. 1:00:31 SM: Well, I remember the papers. And I think he was quoted as saying that he did not know what the why they were protesting because of the fact that he put together the transportation roads, all through the thruway. He was responsible for the Thruway and they were protesting me and I put the Thruway together saying, hey, I know that came up in the conversation. 1:00:53 MP: Yeah, that part I do not remember. What I, tell me if you have ever heard this, that one of the reasons some of the campuses are laid out the way they are. I was told Albany's campus is this, so that it looked good from the air. And so if Rocky was flying over, he could tell somebody that he built that fine looking campus below. I have no idea if that is true. 1:01:17 SM: I do not either. 1:01:19 MP: Makes a good story. 1:01:20 SM: Yeah. That is a just another general question. How important were the student protests in ending the war? And [crosstalk]. And the second part, would you consider this time I think you have already talked about it, you already made a commentary about the nervousness that was going on in our society during the (19)60s and early (19)70s. Would you consider this time the closest we ever got to another civil war after the Civil War? 1:01:49 MP: No, is the short answer on that one, never reached back stage, I am talking more of a social, cultural nervous breakdown, as opposed to a political one where there would be coups and people shooting each other, I never viewed it that way. It is more subtle than that. I am fundamentally a culturalist, so that is what I am referring to, that portion of, of life. 1:02:18 SM: Have you-? 1:02:19 MP: The protests certainly led to, had something to do with the fact of the rest of society getting frustrated. And opposed to the war. I think most grownups viewed things as differently. They were not going to beat up on soldiers. And they did not think this was another sign that the United States being the worst place in the universe but had reached the state, "This is not working. We are killing people we are getting killed with spending an enormous amount of money, and this is not going away." So, I am sure students had a lot to do with precipitating that question. 1:03:02 SM: Have you changed your opinions of the boomers? You are one of them. 1:03:07 MP: The boomers? 1:03:08 SM: I over time, your-your opinions of your generation, say when you were in Harpur at, Harpur and graduate school, and maybe the first 15 years of your career, and compare it to now, have you changed- You know, then we are talking 74 million and I would have to correct that of the 74 million only about 7 percent were ever involved in activism. But that is– 1:03:32 MP: I never romant- I never romanticized, at least I do not think I did, that generation that for no other reason, there are too many people in it [laughs] to find too many distinctive themes. I have problems when people now characterize the Generation X or the millennials or. There is something to be said in each instance, there are some themes, but and now that you think back also about how there were these conservative stirrings during that period that were growing in strength. Here is another aspect of the [inaudible]. And I think a fair amount of religion- my wife is ordained, she is an Episcopal Deacon, we are an interesting family. And I am in church every week, I support my wife. And the dissertation I wrote 39 years ago had a religious theme; much of what I write has cultural themes, social things, religious themes. Thinking back, I have a hard time remembering anybody specifically, who went to church every Sunday. In part because hung out with so many Jews. There was a kosher kitchen, or at least I think that got started, might have gained some strength after I graduated. But I really did not have anything to do be frank about it with observant Jews who ate at the kosher kitchen. Meanwhile, there were 10s of millions of young people and others in the (19)60s into the (19)70s, who were traditionally religiously animated, and religiously animated in new ways. And that sense. At least I never had that sense of that was salient at all. At Harpur, which speaks to the fact, one might argue if one was being a tad harsh, that we were in Ireland. We were not in like the rest of the nation where that was the [inaudible] where religion was concerned, religious observance was concerned. I think about, I think about that a fair amount. And I think about if you want to update matters, and at the risk of my being simply wrong or unfair, bigoted in a fashion, when people talk about spending Sunday mornings reading the New York Times, well, with all due respect to people who read the New York Times, the people I now hang out with mostly go to church on-on Sunday mornings, and historically, lots and lots of American Blacks and lots of Americans have done that and still do that, though the number's decreasing. But that was never the sense in the (19)60s. So you want to view that as an indictment of the time. Sure, I will buy that. 1:06:59 SM: Yeah, I can, I can re-, I went to church every day when I was a little kid, and then through sixth grade, and then all of a sudden went to high school. I did not go to, we did not, something happened in the (19)60s. The (19)50s, everybody was at church or synagogue, it seemed like. 1:07:15 MP: Right-right. 1:07:15 SM: One of the things too, and before we go any further here is the relationship between Harpur College and the City of Binghamton and the Binghamton community. My main reaction particularly around that (19)69 to (19)70 period, when the buses were going back and forth into the city taking students back and so forth or hitchhiking, I did a lot of hitchhiking. There was a dislike-there seemed to be a tremendous dislike of for the, for many of the residents of Binghamton, toward the Harpur students. I can remember Dr. Kadish, my history professor once in a class, just a general comment, he said, he said if you go down if you go into the community, make sure you do not wear your Harpur jacket. 1:08:00 MP: Yeah. 1:08:00 SM: And-and then also, if you remember Mitch, around the (19)69, they were telling girls which, excuse me, telling women and, if you are going to hitchhike, go as a twosome. And so there was a fear that there you know, might get beat up in Binghamton or whatever, because most of Binghamton was pro war, obviously, in the Binghamton community, a lot of their sons and sons are going off to war. And here we had the students protesting on campus against the war. Did you have a sense that you do, were you, outside of writing for the paper, which is important, but did you sense as a student that Binghamton did not like Harpur? That that is the community not the political- 1:08:49 MP: Yeah. No, I would not use dislike as-as the verb though, there were some without question. Distance, I would view it as a matter of distance, we were significantly culturally different in some ways. And first of all, downstate, upstate, Jewish, non-Jewish. And one does not have to use such differences or tensions and hateful terms and they are what they are. One of my favorite examples of this, I was already working for Peter McGraw. Remember Jerry Komisar? 1:09:32 SM: Who? Jerry? 1:09:35 MP: I will spell the name, [inaudible], KOMISAR. He was an economist, a labor economist if you remember, and he was an assistant to the president and he was an assistant to Peter McGraw. He was the academic assistant to him. And Jerry later became the president of the University of Alaska System, but we were sitting with each other in a town gown meeting was one night, someplace on campus. And at the time, as you may recall, locals thought they had a harder time getting their kids into school there than kids from Queens did, when the exact opposite is true. Kids from Susquehanna country needed weaker academic credentials to get into school there. And some guy stands up and he is making the point that, the incorrect point, and referred to a lot of Binghamton Harpur students- and we called them still Harpur at the time- he called them downstate overachievers. And I looked at Jerry and Jerry looked at me and we just began laughing. What a wonderful euphemism for downstate [inaudible]. Downstate overachievers, that was, that was just terrific. 1:11:00 SM: That is exactly what we want in school. [laughs] 1:11:03 MP: My-my, my sense is now from afar, and I have heard it, that ever since Binghamton went division one in athletics, town gown relations are a whole bunch of better because the locals could invest in big time college sports now- reasonably big-time college sports. And that has helped in the fact that it is a major university and not just a small liberal arts college. Yeah, all that all that is true. 1:11:36 SM: I think you already-already know your answer to this, because you have already made a mention of the negativity that some of these students or young people had back in the (19)60s. But there was this feeling. And I remember talking to my friends especially when I was in grad school at Ohio State, would you describe the boomer generation as the most unique generation in our history? And that was the communication when I was in graduate school, in the early (19)70s, that we were different, that we were going to be the change agents for the betterment of a society, this generation saw something wrong and tried to right it. And then that was really the connection to all the movements, whether it be the civil rights, the anti-war, the environmental LGBTA, Chicano, women's, Native American all of them was speaking up, making a difference, and that is what made this generation and his group so different. Your thoughts? 1:12:35 MP: A bit much. [laughter] 1:12:36 SM: Okay. 1:12:40 MP: Yeah, there is that moment of truth in all of that without question. But at the same time, boomers did not have a monopoly on the truth. It did not have a monopoly on responsibility. Of the whatever. What did you say? 73 million? 1:13:02 SM: 74. We are now the second- millennials are larger now. 1:13:06 MP: Yeah. I assure you, they were more people of that generation who were not of the spirit of Harpur students at the time, than were. And yeah so as I said before, I-I resist overgeneralization especially if they get overly romanticized, about any generation. But there are things that certainly happened and that younger folks should be old people were young at the time should be proud of. [crosstalk] I keep on coming back to my goodness, in terms of responsibility, a sense of sacrifice. How in the world could you compare boomers in that sense, to people who lived through a depression and then World War One, World War Two for heaven's sakes, my goodness. 1:14:04 SM: They saved the world. They did save the world. 1:14:09 MP: Without question. 1:14:12 SM: I would like, a couple of the interviews that I did, I would like your thoughts on Todd Gitlin. You may know Todd, was the second founder of SDS, he was after Tom Hayden was the leader. He has gone on to be a big scholar, has written books on the (19)60s and everything and I had a great interview with Todd at-at NYU quite a few years ago, and he said, he does not like this, putting generations into years. Like boomers (19)46 to (19)64, Generation X (19)64 to (19)80 all this kind of stuff. He and secondly, I am at my next point is when I interviewed Richie Havens, who actually performed for the first time on a college campus at Binghamton, and we need to promote this more because Richie told me that during the interview, you I was at that concert and then I asked him, "Do you remember the Bing-?" "That is my first time I went to a college campus!" Well, then we need to let the Binghamton University know this more. But Richie said something very important. He said, I may not be a boomer, but I am one because we are talking about the spirit of the era, forget the years, it is the spirit. And if you look at people born, say between (19)37 and (19)45, who were the leaders of the antiwar movement? Some of the top musicians, they were born in that era, the Rennie Davis' just the yippies. They were, they were, they were all born before (19)46. So, when you go through the interview process on looking at the (19)60s and certainly trying to confine the people that were involved in all these important or maybe not so important activities, you have got to think of what Richie is saying because he says, I am a proud boomer and I was born in (19)41. Sure. It is about spirit. 1:16:07 MP: That is true in terms of the early leadership of the antiwar movement, if we are talking about and let us say, for the sake of argument, (19)65, that would have meant that the oldest boomers were 19. And let us just say a bunch of 19-year olds were not going to start a national movement. Sure, why not. 1:16:35 SM: Do you feel the (19)60s and early (19)70s generation are having problems with healing and I bring this up because Jan, Jan Scruggs wrote the book To Heal a Generation, which is his book when the wall was built in (19)82 in Washington. And it was the first time that veterans felt that they were welcomed home from that war. And he talks about the healing but I have already interviewed Jan too, and Jan says the healing is it was meant for the Vietnam veterans and their families and for the Vietnam veterans themselves, and hopefully this would transfer to into the nation itself. But I asked this question to some of the early interviewees, like Gaylord Nelson. And so everybody's response was kind of different. Healing is trying to get over something, and I do not think we have gotten over this war at all. I- just your thoughts on the healing process? 1:17:34 MP: Well, you framed the question in some respects, in real respects focusing on the military, and how people who served have felt. And as someone who was not in the military, I cannot identify- I would like to- cannot identify real well with that sense of abandonment, let us say, intellectually, I can [inaudible] I suspect I cannot. But my first thought when you started asking the question was that whatever the-the result of Vietnam in terms of divisions in the country's build, let us see if I can express this, have less to do with different sides still fighting over the wisdom or the justice of the war. Rather, it has more to do with a general sense, I come back to the sense of cynicism in this country. And when talking about that, it is impossible for me to separate it from Watergate. So to the extent that there is this ethos has been for decades now, of this respect for politicians, and cynicism about the ability of government to get things right, it has to do with a loss of trust that grew out of both Vietnam, certainly but then Watergate and the combination of the two has been in many ways toxic. And there are straight lines from that to the nastiness of politics now for the last number of decades, the "us" and the "them" and [crosstalk] 1:20:35 SM: Yep-yep. 1:20:35 MP: But I am trying to make the point that I think that this is something different from different sides of the war in the United States still trying to fight it out. No, Vietnam is too far away now for that to be the case. But there has been a spirit of a lack of unity, and trust going back all that time, that is that. I do not know if I am making sense. 1:21:04 SM: Yep, very good observations, certainly. I even wrote a note here we-we as a nation, are still divided here in (20)19. So, it seems like today, it is us against them, it is us against them. It is never-never "We the People," which is what we are supposed to be about. And the-the ability to listen to each other to be not shouted down toward each other. I mean, there was a period even when I was at Ohio State University in grad school, that we were creating dialogue between the races between white people and Black people. And, and then there was, then then then there was a period when there was too much dialogue, and no action was happening. We need results, and-and now I am worried that we are back to an era where the dialogue is gone. And so it is just so many things, what is the lasting legacy of the (19)60s generation and the boomer generation in your view? 1:22:14 MP: Let the pause signify that I am thinking. 1:22:16 SM: Yep, that is okay. 1:22:18 MP: The lasting legacy of the boomer generation. As we have been talking, on the plus side, great advances, when it comes to questions of race, despite what we were just saying a moment ago, what you were saying a moment ago about distance, same thing where women are concerned, same thing where the environment is concerned, though, on each instance and more I can always point out excesses of various movements. And that is one of the jobs of a conservative it seems to me to point out where something is, somebody, some theme is getting carried away. There is a sense of the arrogance, of some thinking about the generation that, we were the greatest generation when in fact, the previous generation if you want to play that game was the greatest generation. 1:23:39 SM: What– 1:23:40 MP: To the extent, well to the sense that I am saying that some things have been overdone, that can leave the interpretation that one wanted to have to go the cliché route again, the (19)50s persists. And that is not what I am saying. So, once you recognize certain great failings of the (19)50s, the (19)50s were not all that bad. [laughs] 1:24:13 SM: I mean, I when I think of the (19)50s, I think I am just a kid you were you were both and you-you and I were a kid, and I kind of go back to those days, there seemed to be a lot of security, had your parents at home, I mean, and everything but then we all know what was happening to African Americans during that time, there was lynchings going on and things were being hid from us. So, it was not good for all Americans, just some Americans. How-? 1:24:39 MP: How about this? It is a-I have always said it is a big country, and you can find anything you want to find. How is that? 1:24:46 SM: Yep, very good. What role has activism played in the lives of boomers as they have aged? In particular, I am referring to that 7 percent that were involved in activism, and conservatives and liberals. Back in that era of the (19)60s and (19)70s, and have they carried, have they passed this on to their kids, who are their children and grandchildren? 1:25:12 MP: It is a brilliant answer, some have some have not. How do you define activists? Are we talking about people on campuses who led the way, who organized events, who ran the mimeograph machines and all, or are we talking about people who just showed up? It is October, let us have a demonstration. It is November, let us have a demonstration. Ooh, now it is the winter, it is too cold for a demonstration. Now it is April, let us have a demonstration. How's that for a cynical view? 1:25:48 SM: Yeah. Well, I yeah, that is a good point, because I am really referring to the doers and the ones that make things happen. So and, you know, and there were few and far between. However, when you look at 74 million and 7 percent it is still a large number. 1:26:03 MP: Well, here is my guess. And it is a guess, I will start with me. I have not been on a picket line since then, I have no interest in being on a picket line. I am not a picketing line kind of guy. But my entire career, virtually my entire career has had to do with the political issues, social issues, advocacy of one kind or another. So to that extent, I remain what I was, though in a different form. And I would imagine that it is true for lots and lots and lots of people, there are not necessarily so many barricades. But they are the ones putting together groups to make this better or that better or getting involved politically. It is not getting a bug, it is when your personality and your character are such that you must be involved with the great issues and the semi great issues of the day, chances are, we will continue one way or another, for a longer period of time. There will be interludes when you are raising families, I suspect, when you do not have enough time. But you get involved in various ways, in issues. And in this country there are many, many ways of getting involved. 1:27:40 SM: The, when I interviewed Bobby Muller, the founder of Vietnam Veterans of America, and he also was a co-winner of the Nobel Peace Prize on the landmine issues. He said when answering a question about the impact of what was the basic characteristics of the boomer generation, he said, the one thing that I can definitively say is true- and you have already brought it up- is there was a lack of trust in that generation. And there were reasons why: Watergate, the Gulf of Tonkin, which was a basically a lie that LBJ, he got us into the Vietnam War, and if you were young enough to remember this, as a sixth grader, which you both you and I were at this time, Eisenhower lying to the nation about the U2 incident. And he lied to the nation. And, and I never thought of that. And then of course, when Jerry Ford pardoned Richard Nixon, everybody was suspicious and did not trust Gerald Ford, in that even though he had not done anything wrong. But this lack of trust is certainly a characteristic that comes through over and over again. And it is not just lack of trust in our political leaders, but lack of trust in leaders of any kind, whether it be a minister, a rabbi, a corporate leader, a university president, anybody in a position of responsibility has seemed to be targets of many of those activists back then. 1:29:09 MP: Yeah, let me, I am sorry go on. 1:29:11 SM: No, go ahead. 1:29:17 MP: For all that I have said about a lack of trust, I personally am in fact the most trusting person I know. I do not attribute lousy motives to people unless I have a reason to do so. At the heart and soul center, the American Experiment is my commitment not to question motives if at all possible. I will question policies, I will question ideas, I will question what people say, but I will not question their basic decency or I will not question their motives. If I think back to Francis Gary Powers I suspect not too many of your- well if you are talking to older, yeah, they may remember Francis Gary Powers. So, if Eisenhower, and I never viewed what Eisenhower did as-as cynical, I viewed it as what presidents do when it comes to spying for [laughter], when it comes to espionage, when it came to the Gulf of Tonkin I assumed that LBJ was playing it straight at the time, it was only later on that I realized probably was not. Al Quie, who was the governor I worked for, whose biography I later wrote, he was in Congress at the time, and he really did not like LBJ. And he became very close to being the only member of the House to vote against it, because he thought Johnson was lying. Simply could not get himself to be the only member of the House to do that. And he, [laughs] I think, still regrets that. With Jerry Ford, I was not cynical about that at all. I argued. I thought that that was in the best interest of the nation, not good to have a former president of the United States in prison. If we are talking about healing, let us get on with it. Are you still there? 1:31:30 SM: Yep. I am here. 1:31:32 MP: I am hearing some-or somebody is trying to call me, but we will forget about that. [crosstalk] So, I-I, I start from a position of trust and I do think it has served me and it has served, centered the American Experiment very well. I am not talking about innocence, I am not talking about naïveté. I am talking about human decency, trusting people to the extent that one can and one can do it, and should do it to a significant degree. 1:32:13 SM: Before we [inaudible], my next question is the question before I want to talk about your organization. In the (19)60s, what and (19)70s, what was the event that you felt had the greatest impact on your life? Something that happened in the (19)60s and (19)70s. 1:32:41 MP: Kent State was one of them. That was the only time really that I thought I was thinking too negatively about my country. For a period I could see that night how mobs came to be and how they could do terribly destructive things. That was the spirit of that evening, and that, I am not just that evening. Sidebar, it may sound trivial in talking about mobs. Do you remember there was a demonstration on the Esplanade about, the decision had come down from high that doors had to be kept six inches open or something and guys could not be entertaining women in their dorm rooms or something along those lines. And there was this demonstration, and some of the speakers were getting really agitated, and the crowd was getting really agitated. I am thinking to myself, this is a mob psychology, has to do with having-having to put a sock on your doorknob or something. That was that was that was the psychology in a lower tense way of the mob. Well, I mentioned what, what got me thinking differently about the war, beyond the fact that the social and political pressures as well as the facts were surrounding me while I was at Binghamton when I arrived at Binghamton in the fall of (19)67 was that Harrison Salisbury speech. I go back to that speech, it was a Binghamton event that had a significant influence, and so let us go with that. 1:34:46 SM: I want to talk about your center. 1:34:48 MP: Okay. 1:34:49 SM: Yeah. When did you first come up with the idea that you wanted to create this, and go through the process of how you created it 10 time- you know, and just into what is the basic principles? What were your goals? So you can share it with the world, because that is what this tape is doing is sharing it with the world. 1:35:16 MP: Always happy to do that. [inaudible]. I am very proud of it. By the time I got to DC, in (19)87, fall of (19)87, to work at the US Department of Education, I had had a background in education, journalism, and government. I had been the director of public information at a ridiculously young age at Binghamton. I served in that capacity either officially or unofficially from (19)72 to (19)74. I got to the University of Minnesota, I was Pete McGraw's speechwriter, I was speechwriting for the President of the big 10 University for three years. I had a doctorate in educational administration, which really was education, administration, and policy with a focus on higher education. I had been a reporter prior to that in Binghamton so I knew something about journalism. I went off to be after the doctorate, a speech writer for a governor, Al Quie, for upwards of two years, later wrote his biography. And after Quie, I served as an editorial writer and as an occasional columnist for significant paper in a significant city in St. Paul, Minnesota. So I had that background. But I had always wanted to do a Washington stint. One of my restorations at the Pioneer Press was that here I had a doctor in education, somebody else was writing about education. Not that I did not have challenging things to write about. I was writing about national politics, and the Middle East. I think I would have Latin America as well and the Soviet Union, not a bad portion of the world to write about. But I always wanted to a Washington stint. And I had that chance in the fall of (19)87. There were other things that [inaudible] in press that were frustrating me and after four years, I realized it was time to move on. And I had a very good friend still have a very good friend and a guy by the name of Chester E. Finn, Jr, known as Checker Finn, FINN, Finn. Who, at the time, I describe accurately as the most important American education analyst and scholar from the right side of the aisle. And he had been at Vanderbilt. he had been at Harvard, he was Pat Moynihan's alter ego in some ways. He, first of all, he had baby-sat some of Moynihan's kids, what was when Moynihan taught at Harvard, Checker was a undergraduate or graduate student there, he worked for Moynihan when he was ambassador to India, and that is where Checker met his wife, Renu, who is Indian. He worked for him in the Nixon White House, I think that was prior or maybe afterwards, and he worked for him when Moynihan was going through his neoconservative period and said other members of Moynihan's staff, by the way at the time were Elliot Perle, who later wound up as Assistant Secretary of Defense under Reagan- not Elliott Perle, Richard Perle. Elliott Abrams and wound up as Assistant Secretary of State, and Checker wound up as an Assistant Secretary of Education during the Reagan administration. 1:39:05 SM: Wow. 1:39:05 MP: Russert was the press secretary it was Les Lenkowsky was also a consultant. It was it was some remarkable staff. Anyway, I met Checker when I was in graduate school. And when I wanted to leave the party and press I gave him a call. And I asked, "Do you have anything?" And he said, "Funny, I do." And Director of Public Information for something, Director of Outreach actually, for the research arm of the US Department of Education at the time, the Office of Educational Research and Improvement. And clandestinely, I went out there and I interviewed and got the job and went out to Washington, putting aside for a moment the extraordinary ambivalence I had about whether or not to take it and my first thought was no. But I went out there. And very quickly I realized that I really did not want to be out there. The bureaucracy was something I really disliked, and the job I had been promised did not turn out that way because typical Washington, someone else already out there working for Bennett, Secretary Bill Bennett. She thought she was the spokesperson for the research arm of the US Department of Education. So, I wound up doing other things, and I just did not enjoy it. So pretty quickly after getting to Washington, perhaps no more than six weeks or so, I started thinking about coming back home and Minnesota was very much home at that point. I had been out here for seven years, I guess. No, let me take that back. No-no, no, my goodness, I had already been on your 13 years. And I had learned something about think tanks, especially when I was at the party on press, when the Heritage Foundation would send me things and on occasion they would visit trying to make a point about something or other, and I found their work to be really quite good. So, they had the reputation at many quarters at that time, as being extreme- they were not. So I did background on those three areas: education, journalism, and government. I said, "Well, I am equipped to start a think tank," and I wanted to start a conservative free market think tank. When I was at the Pioneer Press, I was essentially the only regularly paid conservative opinion writer at either the Pioneer Press or the Star Tribune, the Minneapolis paper- I was the only one. Which says something about the media out here at the time. It is not a bunch of different now. And I knew that a conservative think tank out here would work even though people thought I was crazy. I am saying I want to go back home, start a conservative think tanks and they would say things along the lines, "You want to start a what, where?" They could not imagine a conservative think tank in Minnesota, but no state is the stereotype that it is made out to be, and we are talking about a state that in (19)78, which was nine years prior, had elected all in one line two Republican United States senators and the Republican governor. Al Quie as governor, Dave Durenberger and Rudy Boschwitz as senators, and there were two Senate races that night having to do with Mondale going off to being vice president. And started thinking this through, started talking to people. And I started getting really serious about it. after a couple of months. One of the things I enjoyed about being out in Washington was that I occasionally would have lunch or breakfast with Senator Dave Durenberger in the Senate dining room, that was fun. I enjoyed that. And I had been talking about this idea for a while and he said, "Well you got to stop talking about it, and actually write something" [inaudible] good point. As a writer, I should have known that. So I put together a prospectus, and learned for the first time how expensive printing is, by the way. And from May of (19)88 until we opened 22 months later in March of (19)90, I made 17 trips home, Washington to Minnesota- 1:44:03 SM: Wow. 1:44:04 MP: -to raise money to put together a board of directors and the like, largely on my own dime. Whatever money I had, I spent for the most part and we were finally ready to open up, we had enough money which is not to say very much in March of (19)90 and we opened up great. I had become friends with or acquaintances with people such as Charles Murray, Linda Chavez, Bob Woodson, Checker Finn of course. Larry Mead from NYU, Sally Kilgore, who had done her doctorate under James Coleman and with whom I was working at the US Department of Education [inaudible]. And in one of our meetings back here was our first board meeting, official board meeting. And also, it was still the only board meeting where everybody showed up. And it was on the evening of Reagan's farewell address interestingly, so we took a break from our meeting that evening to watch the address. And one of my colleagues, one of my very close colleagues and one of the founders, and I started working with my close friends in doing this, I certainly was not doing it all by myself, so I was the lead actor. Peter Bell said to me, "You know, we are beginning" and he told the group this, "We are beginning to smell like a house that has been on the market for too long." We may have said this later on, probably said it a bit later on, I may be getting my dates wrong. People knew that we were doing this, getting ready to do this, journalists knew that, then there was some stories. But I just could not raise enough money to actually get it going. I can talk about how we found the money if you would like. And so we decided to do a conference, which wound up in April of (19)90, we were going to do it even if I was not back full time in Minnesota yet. I hired a local event planner, in essence. And I was putting much of this together from Washington. And we decided to have this conference call, and this was my friend Peter Belle's idea. I came up I think, with the exact title, "The New War on Poverty, Advancing Forward this Time," the argument being that we have had this war on poverty in (19)65. Going forward, it did not work real well and there was a sense of the time [inaudible] start trying to do a new one, let us get it right this second time. So, I invited these stars to come out and speak and they all agreed and I said I could not pay ya- I [inaudible] pick up expenses. And they all agreed, and then they all came. I learned later that they may have agreed because they never thought I would be able to pull it off, we would be able to pull it off. But we did. And we opened up great. We had three other people, it was an ideologically and otherwise mixed crowd, mostly ideologically mixed. And Checker Finn did the keynote and Bill Raspberry, the great columnist and friend- 1:47:42 SM: Oh, yeah. 1:47:42 MP: -wrote a column about it. And we were off and, off and running. 1:47:49 SM: What are the what are the basic principles of the organization? 1:47:58 MP: My arguments at the start will have remained my themes, I just been cleaning out some files and moving things around. And I came across columns I wrote for the Pioneer Press back in (19)87. And as the root of my views was that the overwhelming social disaster of our time, was the extraordinary number of kids growing up without their fathers at home. Social, well I, it was family breakdown at the time. The term of [inaudible], family fragmentation, and I had written consistently about that including two books: From Family Collapse to America's Decline in (20)11, and Broken Bonds: What Family Fragmentation Means for America's future in (20)14. And I also talked a lot about them and still do, about how we have to take greater advantage of our religious traditions and institutions to help people in need, and that if we do not do that, it is as if we are trying to do, to make things better with a very muscular arm tied behind our back. And of course, we had to do this in ways that are respectful of the First Amendment, and respectful of I do not use the word diversity, I do not like that, it is a cliché. So I talk about, we have to do that in a way, in ways that are respectful of American variety. And as someone who is Jewish, frankly, I am in some instances in better position to make the argument because people cannot accuse me of being an overly energetic Christian. And I have to be careful using terms like that, I mean them in facetious ways, but sometimes people take it seriously. And is there a wall separating church and state? Of course, I would argue and still do but it is, it was never intended to be as tall and as thick, as it has often been interpreted to be. And what is the main way by my lights to take greater advantage of our religious institutions and traditions? School choice, real life school choice, giving particularly poor parents an opportunity to send their kids to the school of their choice, be it public or private, and private, secular or religious. So those are the [inaudible] of the main themes. Generally, when people think of conservative free market think tanks, they focus more on the economic side of things. And we certainly have done work in that area and more over time. But those were the themes that certainly animated me and animate me still. 1:51:16 SM: Mitch, how many people work at the organization now? 1:51:21 MP: Now, it is a whole lot bigger than what it was, I think there may be something like 14 people on the payroll. 1:51:28 SM: And to do these, do you have lecture circuits to where you have speakers going out to college campuses and things? 1:51:35 MP: No, we do not have that. And you should know my role. I have not been president for going on four years. 1:51:40 SM: Right. 1:51:41 MP: My title is Senior Fellow and Founder, Founder and Senior Fellow. I am part time and have been part time for, this is the first year I have been part time, but I have worked at home for the last going on four years. So, I am out of the loop pretty much. I still write, I have written books during this period. I am going to do another significant project over the next half year or so dealing with personal responsibility and education. Conservatives like talking about personal responsibility, individual responsibility. Well, what does it really mean now in education, if on the one hand I am talking about how family fragmentation is making it hard for lots of kids to do well, and people on the left for the most part of the talking about how racism is supposedly making it impossible for kids, many kids to do well, where does personal responsibility fit in to all of this stuff. I will be conducting a major symposium, written symposium on this over the next half year. 1:53:00 SM: Have you ever thought of coming back to Binghamton and trying to do something? I am just, I am just bringing it up. Because you are, you are distinguished– 1:53:09 MP: I was recently [crosstalk] Someone would have to pay me, someone would have to pay me to be real blunt about it. I am not independently wealthy. If I were to do something, someone would have to underwrite this effort. I have to tell you, when I was out there, it was after Broken Bonds, I guess. Broken Bonds came out in (20)14. And I finagled a speaking engagement in (20)14 or (20)15 talking about the book to some local town gown group that exists, I forget its name. And someone from the Alumni Association that graciously invited me out, was first to go out there. And they put together a schedule for me and I met with some education professors, did not have education professors back when I was there. And I, it was a nostalgic place for me, it is an important, very important place in my life. And the idea of going back and doing something there is really quite appealing. Not necessarily to live, my wife prefers it out here if we are going to move anyplace, it would be someplace like Colorado. But the idea of being involved in some way on a regular basis of Binghamton, yeah that is quite appealing if you can work something out. But financially, I am at a point where I-I would need to be paid, I would need to be paid. 1:54:45 SM: Well, I wish I was back in the university where I work because we, I did five, six or seven conferences at Westchester and I wrote grants and that subject matter you are talking about would make an excellent conference. I am going to, I am we are getting toward the end here, but I want to ask a few more questions– 1:55:02 MP: Sure. 1:55:03 SM: -about your time at Binghamton. Could you just in your own words, what was the relationship between students, faculty and administration during the time you were here? 1:55:13 MP: Good question. Friends, reasonably close friends with-with various faculty and administrators, lots of students, particularly those of us in antiwar activities, though I [inaudible] not only those of us doing that were close to Peter Vukasin, for example, that was the spirit of the place, the Dean of Harpur College. 1:55:49 SM: Right-right. 1:55:52 MP: I might- have you interviewed Camille Paglia yet? 1:55:56 SM: No, I tried a many, many years back. She works at the school [crosstalk] in Philadelphia, the art school. 1:56:05 MP: Right. 1:56:05 SM: And she just did not even respond. But she has, she graduated (19)69 I think, did not she? I think. 1:56:11 MP: Yeah, I think so. I did not know her there. Those of us in my athletic and social science and the other realms were not involved in things in the humanities for the most part. But I remembered when you talk about, relationships with faculty, she was very close to, you mentioned Jerry Komisar before, right? 1:56:34 SM: Yeah, he was. Yeah, he was great professor. 1:56:39 MP: Or was it- he was a historian, was she very close to, who was the poet, who was the poet? 1:56:49 SM: I [crosstalk] know the sociologist was Dr. Price. 1:56:55 MP: No, she was not that [inaudible] she was talking about it. Frankly, I was just reading one of her books again the other day. It will come to me. I will send you an email if I find it. 1:57:07 SM: Yeah, she was she was here in (19)69. Then Bill T. Jones came in here, the great dancer, in (19)71. So and I- 1:57:16 MP: Remember, yeah. 1:57:18 SM:Do you remember Michelle Pecora? 1:57:19 MP: The name, that is all I remember. 1:57:23 SM: Yeah-yeah. Well, she was she [crosstalk] was a dance major, who ended up working at a conservative think tank. 1:57:29 MP: Oh, really? 1:57:30 SM: Yes. 1:57:30 MP: Where? 1:57:31 SM: I think it is the Heritage Foundation. I you know, I tried to look her up. She went to Ohio, she is a year older than me, she went to Ohio State when I was there. I do not ever remember her here. And she was a dance major there. And I remember she was living in Jones tower. And she asked me if I could get graduate students to go to her, you know, dance recital, which I we were in the front row, got a whole mess of them. And she said at that time, she had met someone that she was engaged to be married and all the other stuff, and I lost touch with her totally. Then I looked her up just going into the web. And I believe she ended up getting a CPA or something like that, and then she was also working I think it was either the mer- I think it was the Heritage Foundation. I do not think she is there now. 1:58:17 MP: How do you spell, how do you spell, how do you spell her last name? 1:58:19 SM: PECORA. You know, she was married, so she changed her last name. But it was Michelle Pecora and I all I know is when I looked her up, she was working at the part time, I think at one of the two [crosstalk] is it was either the Heritage or the American Enterprise Institute. It was one of the two, I do not know which one– 1:58:40 MP: Take a look, I will take a look. You remember Percival Borde? He was right after the (19)70's, it was when I was working at (19)72, (19)72, (19)74. He was from the islands, he was a professional dancer. He was a major player. He was on the faculty for a while. But indicative of the time and this is real naïveté, it is not cynical naïveté. I knew Arnie Zane a bit. And I knew I knew of them, frankly and Bill Jones, first Arnie, and I was someplace. Could have been in the theater for heaven's sakes, backstage for whatever reason, and Arnie was sitting on Bill's lap. And in terms of things gay, I knew hardly anything at all. And I was just struck. I do not know exactly what I was thinking. I guess I knew they were gay. But I had never seen a guy sitting on another guy's lap that way. And you talked about fundamental changes- 1:58:43 SM: No. Oh yeah. 1:59:57 MP: -over the decades, that would be it. And then you jump ahead to now. And for decades and decades for the life of the planet for the most part, same sex marriage was not an issue, it was the last [inaudible] to be accepted. 2:00:20 SM: Right. Well, I, Bill T., Bill T. Jones spoke at the Philadelphia library when his book came out and that and I had never met him before. And he signed two of them. My grandniece is really interested in ballet. So, I gave her one of the books, but he gave a great presentation and he is very proud to be a Binghamton alumnus, let me tell you that. 2:00:40 MP: Good. 2:00:40 SM: And I want to just, want to mention, do you remember when Dr. Liebman was fired? 2:00:47 MP: Dr. who? 2:00:48 SM: Liebman. LIE- 2:00:50 MP: No. 2:00:51 SM: He was a sociology professor who spoke down in front of City Hall in an antiwar protest, and he was fired. 2:01:00 MP: The name is vaguely familiar. He was actually fired for that or [crosstalk]? 2:01:05 SM: I think I think he was, he did something because he, when I was here in (19)67, in the fall, he was my sociology professor and then [crosstalk] 2:01:15 MP: Somebody else had to be going on, I assure you. Otherwise the rest of the faculty would have arisen and said you cannot do that. 2:01:25 SM: Yeah. 2:01:25 MP: Academic freedom and all. 2:01:27 SM: Well, something. Yeah, something happened, and he was gone, and one thing, did you go to your graduation in (19)70. 2:01:34 MP: I did not officially graduate in (19)70, remember I found out I was seven credits short. So, I guess I was there and I was the I was, I forget what the term was an usher or something, someone walking down the aisle with a baton. 2:01:48 SM: Yeah, you [crosstalk] remember all the we all we all met, I graduated on that- I had a broken arm. And, like in my picture was in the paper the following day, I told my parents not to bring anything, any cameras to embarrass me. And, and yet, my picture was in the Binghamton Sun the following day, he was getting my degree from Dr. Deering. But do you, that day was historic, because the Grateful Dead had been on campus on May 2nd in performance, and then of course– 2:02:20 MP: Well, I was not in that loop. I simply did not live in that loop. 2:02:24 SM: Right. I guess I am almost done here. I have one that is kind of a convoluted question, but I am going to say finally, how will– 2:02:36 MP: I will give you a convoluted answer. 2:02:38 [laughs] Finally, how important was the era of the (19)60s and early (19)70s in your life, not just because you experienced it and lived it, but because it is shaped who you once were, still are or changed you in ways you never thought possible when you were young? 2:02:58 MP: It was pivotal. For no other reason, then we were talking about when I was in my late teens and early 20s. And I talk about, I probably still, though probably not as much as I used to, I talk about the Harpur/ Binghamton frequently, and part of that has to do, of course, with the fact that I worked there afterwards. I was the director of public information so my job was to think kind thoughts of the place. That was not hard. It is a, it is a good question. I think my wife is in the next room, she may be hearing this so. Exceedingly-exceedingly personal stuff here. Yeah, I started off talking about how I was this swab of this student earlier in high school, junior high school, did not come from an environment that had books in the house. There was, my parents did have a little bookcase. It was in a closet, it did not have many books. I think they used it principally, to hide [inaudible] from me. So, Binghamton was a lot of really, really smart kids, was a different kind of environment. So the high school I went to had some exceptionally smart people. I was not one of them. And when I got to Binghamton, I had worked hard enough that I was closer to being on the cusp of some of the really smart kids, as I said there were a couple of classes where I was the only "A". Richard Dec Legion class, I think and that Hackman class. Yeah, I was living in a dormitory. I was for all three years in the summer between my junior and sophomore years- junior and senior year, I lived in, I call it a semi communal because nobody was sleeping with each other as far as I know. But there were a number of us living in an old farmhouse at the top of the hill in Vestal on Jones road. And my housemates, the friends I had, were, they were, they were cool. They were smart. They were different from the people I would hang out. They were not baseball players. I do not know. Did you know the name, did you know Krista Patton? 2:06:08 SM: Krista Patton, nope. 2:06:11 MP: PATTON. Krista was a great friend. She was one of the people living in the house. Krista died about three years ago now, Alzheimer's, very sad. She was a, she was a class act. She was beautiful, she was exceedingly talented. She spoke beautifully, I do not think she ever stuttered or stammered over a single syllable in her entire life. She-she was indicative of Binghamton in this way. She was all those things. Frankly, more beautiful than 99 percent of the women in this world. But she was counter culture in the sense that when she got out of school, she did not do anything for a while that was close to matching her talent, she had been an English major, was a great English major, and got out of school. And she worked in a bookstore doing nothing terribly interesting. She drove a truck– 2:07:25 SM: My God. 2:07:25 MP: -for a while at delivery truck, I believe. And then after a number of years, we stayed in touch. After a number of years, she decided she wanted to be a physician. But by this stage, she had been out of school for a while. And she was an English major, not a lot of science courses. So, she was told, "Well, you got to go back and take science courses," which he did for the next several years. And aced them all of course, this was at Clark, I believe she was living in Worchester Massachusetts. 2:07:58 SM: Wow. 2:07:59 MP: Got into medical school there. And by that stage I was concerned she would not get in because she was too old. But she got in, graduated, became a fine physician. And, and I in some ways I mentioned this because she followed her own drummer in a classical Binghamton way, if I want to romanticize the place. And after a while she said, "I do not want to be a doctor anymore." She did not like the bureaucracy. So she stopped doing that and became a landscaper. 2:08:35 SM: Oh my God. 2:08:36 MP: And she became sick, and then then she died. And she was involved. She never married but she was involved on and off, mostly on over that entire period from Binghamton on with a guy by the name of Ricky Barton. Ricky is African American, [inaudible]. So that was that was an own, marching to your own drummer kind of thing. 2:08:57 SM: And you know, and marching to your own drummer, you remember the artist Peter Max. Well Peter Max is the really- Yeah. The artist of the (19)60s and (19)70s. 2:09:06 MP: Yeah-yeah, yeah. 2:09:06 SM: And he had so many things which were, go to the beat of your own drummer, or take- 2:09:12 MP: Right. 2:09:12 SM: -or take the road less traveled. It is very obvious, Mitch that some of the relationships and friendships you have developed here at this campus have been have touched you in so many ways and I think of all the things that have, that this interview, which I love hearing about your organization, the changes you have gone through from your early years to today. And but also hearing about the friendships you bring these names up. I do not know them, but it is obvious, you know, as a college student, friendships developed here. And-and we always think of and I always think of I do not ever think of Binghamton University or SUNY Binghamton, I think a Harpur College. And the fact is, I know it was SUNY Binghamton when we were students here. It was Harpur College, Binghamton, SUNY Binghamton. But I am so proud of being a part of Harpur College, the arts and sciences school on this campus. And– 2:10:10 MP: Yeah, I so, go on I am sorry. 2:10:12 SM: Yeah, no, I still identify more as a Harpur Arts and Sciences than I do Binghamton University. [laughs] 2:10:18 MP: Yeah, there has been a large part of me doing that, at least up until about 10 years ago, and I still, I frequently sleep in a Harpur shirt. The reason I focus on Binghamton now, as I do, because I work there, because it is all these years later and when I talk about where I went to school, people not going to out here know about Harpur. They generally do not know about Binghamton, either, but chances are they will know it more readily than Harper, and we just won a Nobel Prize, for example, for a professor at Binghamton not Harpur, you get the idea. 2:10:59 SM: Yep. Yeah, right, well, I always end with by saying, Is there a question that you thought I might ask you that I did not? 2:11:12 MP: As we were talking, I was wondering if you were going to ask about my draft status and whether or not- well, I made it clear I had to serve. But how did I not serve? 2:11:22 SM: Yeah, well, that would be a good question to ask. I know, I was, what did he call it? I cannot remember. I remember I was number 74 on the draft list. 2:11:33 MP: While I was number 31. 2:11:35 SM: Oh my god. 2:11:37 MP: The night someone picked out a ping pong ball, and decided I was number 31, I had had already for about two years, maybe a bad knee, which later were terribly arthritic, and later had replaced and I had both knees replaced and a hip replaced and two spine operations, you get the idea. So a lot of arthritis. So I called the home that night, called collect. And the operator says to my mother who picked up the phone, "Will you accept a call from Mitch?" and she said, "Yeah, we will accept a call from number 31." 2:12:24 SM: [laughs] Oh, God. 2:12:25 MP: I call, I called home to tell him to make another appointment for me with my orthopedist at the time and I look back on this I am not much to say exceedingly proud of all of that. I-I was opposed to going to Vietnam I would like to think for principled reasons, but also be [inaudible] want to go to Vietnam. I was not against military service. I was not against the draft but if I had a chance not to get drafted and not go to Vietnam, I was going to take it. And I became 4F because of my knee wanting the physical on May 26 (19)70 in Syracuse, I look back on that time talking about pivotal moments and pivotal events and things going on. 2:13:20 SM: Were you on that- were you on that bus to Syracuse with Binghamton students? 2:13:24 MP: Yes. You were there? 2:13:25 SM: I was on that, yes, I was on that bus. 2:13:28 MP: [inaudible] 2:13:29 SM: I cannot believe it! 2:13:30 MP: What happened? 2:13:31 SM: I am for- I had asthma. 2:13:34 MP: Well, I developed that later on. I did not have that at the time. 2:13:37 SM: But I was not doing any of that thinking, oh, I am going to go to Canada and all that other stuff I just, I just legitimately had asthma. So and that got me out. But I remember going on the bus and then they asked when we got there, I think they said, "Get in the line if you do not have an excuse and get in the line if you do have an excuse." And there is only a few that [laughs]. There was only a few that got in the line that [laughs] that did not have an excuse. So that– 2:14:04 MP: So, I look back on that time I am not- I will be real blunt- I am not real proud of it. And it is one of the reasons why now, especially since I have made arguments over time as a journalist and think tank about supporting George W. Bush in Iraq, which that might have been a mistake going back down. But I am quite aware of all this I am, so my license plate. We have license plates out here, you pay an extra 30 bucks a year, whatever it is and it has an eagle on it and the extra money goes to military families. So. 2:14:43 SM: That is very good Mitch, I devoted a lot of my life to working with Vietnam vets, Vietnam vets. So, and if you if you look at the people that I have interviewed [inaudible] this, if you look at the people I have interviewed, I have interviewed all the top Vietnam vets basically, except a few of them- McCain, I never got a chance to interview him or John Kerry. But I have gotten to know a lot of them. And I go down to the Vietnam Memorial every Memorial Day and Veterans Day, and I have done so since (19)92. So very important to me to pay respects for those who gave their all and they served. They serve this nation with distinction. I know there is some bad ones, but most of them I think we are good. Mitch, are there any other things you want to say? 2:15:27 MP: A final point, I made it before, but it is worth making it again. Of all the things that the anti-war generation, or make it more clearly the antiwar activist did that I think we should regret is this the way we treated the American soldiers. 2:15:47 SM: I agree. I agree. And it has gotten some– 2:15:51 MP: I would like to think, I would like to think I did not do that. And I really did not– 2:15:55 SM: Well I– 2:15:55 MP: -and there were so many people who did. 2:15:56 SM: Yeah, yeah, in 19- this is a true story, in (19)82 you can see the videos of when the mall opened and how they all came there, the first time that they were actually welcome home really felt. And then you had this period of time after this when some people faked that they were Vietnam veterans. And that is, that is a crime in my opinion. Several books have been written on it. But yeah, I do not, most of the people I know that were antiwar, including some of the major activists they never, it was all about the leaders who sent them to the to the war, not the soldiers themselves. They just wanted to prevent them from getting killed. [inaudible] again, this, this particular interview will be going into the archives, but it will be sent to you first for approval. 2:16:42 MP: Okay. 2:16:43 SM: It has to be some from David Schuster here at the center. 2:16:46 MP: We are talking about just the audio. We are not transcribing this, are we? 2:16:49 SM: No, we are talking the audio. 2:16:51 MP: Okay, yeah. I am sure I will have no problem approving anything and everything. But yeah, I look forward to listening to it. 2:16:58 SM: And also, one other thing, we will need a picture of you that has been approved and okayed. And we need to know the photographer because we have to get credits for them. And I will add one other thing. I have never read any of your books. And quite a few, I have given my whole book collection and except just maybe two or three hundred that I have not given yet. And a lot of them are the people that I interviewed who has signed their books. So, I would love to have your books available here to be near your interview and your picture and biography. 2:17:31 MP: You just sent me an email about what you need and we will work at it. 2:17:33 SM: Great. Mitch, what an honor. And I and I. 2:17:36 MP: My pleasure. 2:17:37 SM: And one other thing I will always remember when I came back from Ohio State University one summer, the summer after I left, I think it was the summer of (19)71. And I walked on the campus. It was a beautiful sunny day and you were sitting in a chair. I do not know if you remember this. You were sitting in a chair outside the of the union in the front facing the administration building. And I said to you, "Mitch, what are you doing here?" [laughs] Because I thought you graduated (19)70 And that is when you told me you were staying around and working with the President that you were working there. You are still doing something. (19)72 to (19)70- son of a gun! Alright, good. Yep. Mitch, you have a great day. Thank you. 2:18:16 MP: I do have one final-final point. I am very, very proud of myself that I have not said one bad thing about Ohio State. 2:18:22 SM: [laughs] That is okay, Mitch. Thank you. 2:18:27 MP: Bye-bye. 2:18:28 SM: Bye. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Mitch Pearlstein https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e591e68f3017126d87d97fd04f89121a.jpg 97fde756dd09051e58bc61e66f9f49e4 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e22d01c3f515b0dc64b19daec0b0c4ac.MP3 26c0ce5b3a38949cee3ec62fe2c8eda8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 8/7/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Edie Meeks Biographical Text Edie Meeks grew up in Minneapolis, Minnesota along with an older sister and two younger brothers. She joined the Army Nurse Corps (ANC) in early 1968 and enlisted as a nurse in Saigon during the Vietnam War. Meeks left the ANC in 1970 and began her work in the operating room, which she continues to this day in the Northern Westchester Hospital of Mt. Kisco, New York. She graduated from St. Mary's school of nursing in Rochester, Minnesota. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:58:02 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Nursing; Vietnam War; Anti War Movement; Saigon; Women's Memorial; 1960s; 1970s; Boomer generation Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Edie Meeks Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Shah Islam Date of interview: 7 August 2019 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:01 Yep, we are all set. EM: 00:04 Okay. SM: 00:05 All right. First of all, thank you very much for agreeing to do this. This is oral history with Edie Meeks. Edie, the first question I want to ask you is, could you tell us about your background, where you grew up? Some of the early influences in your life, your family background, your schooling and high school, college before you became a nurse? EM: 00:27 Okay, I grew up in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And I am one of four children. My other— older sister and two younger brothers. And I went to Catholic schools for 15 years. For grade school, high school and nursing school, which was St. Mary's School of Nursing in Rochester, Minnesota. SM: 00:51 Okay. Wow. And how did you choose nursing? For your career? Is there a family history of nursing? EM: 01:00 There is actually no medical family history at all. But I knew from the littlest of girls that I was going to be a nurse. And I always asked for the nurse’s kit in our Christmas from Santa. SM: 01:15 Yes. EM: 01:16 And for the doc— not even the doctor’s kits, just the nurse’s kits. But I always knew— it was either that or a roller derby star. And I figured probably I would not do that. So, I became a nurse instead. I have always wanted to be a nurse and I still love nursing. SM: 01:34 Are you still nursing? EM: 01:36 Yes, I am two days a week in the operating room. SM: 01:38 Wow. That is amazing. Yeah. EM: 01:40 And mainly because I love it. You know, it is really, you… stay current with everything that is going on. Now they have robots and all these other things, and it keeps your sharp. SM: 01:52 Yeah, very good. How did you end up as a nurse in Vietnam? Did you volunteer? Did you, did they send you, was your commitment to serve for so many years? And did you have any say where you were shipped once you got there? EM: 02:09 I was… I enlisted. And I did that because my brother Tom had been drafted. And it was the beginning of… March beginning. But there was rumblings about antiwar and all that. And I did not know whether it was good or bad. So, I just decided that, you know, if my brother Tom got hurt, I wanted to be sure somebody was over there that wanted to be over there. And so, I enlisted, but then he said, because he was a Marine, he said, Edie, the Navy takes care of the Marines. And I had enlisted in the Army. So, forget that. I think he was relieved, though, that he were not his sister would not be, you know, offering the same type of service that he was. And so— and when you enlisted, because all of the nurses did. And at the time that I went over all of the nurses volunteered. So, we were just, you know, got— we were going to do our part. SM: 03:17 So, all the nurses when they got there did not exactly know where they were going to end up. In terms of the medical facility— EM: 03:25 No, no when you got— when you got there, you were assigned to where you were going. SM: 03:29 Okay, very good. EM: 03:30 And the— when I arrived, I had been dating a guy at Fort Ord. And he, he had asked the Chief Nurse if I can be stationed in Saigon where he was. And so, when he— when I arrived, he said oh, you are going to be in Saigon, because Captain Meeks was. And I thought, what? Yeah, I was kind of forward, but anyway. And when I stayed in Saigon at Third Field Hospital, for six months, in the intensive care unit. And then I found that, actually, I broke up with Bill because, Bill Meeks, because it was too schizophrenic. I mean, you work 12 hours a day, six days a week. And you were taking care of these really horribly injured guys. And then you were supposed to go out to dinner and have small talk. And at the time, Saigon still had four-star hospitals. I mean, [inaudible] restaurant. So, you could go to the top of, you know, the Continental Hotel and, and all of these fancy restaurants. And it was like, I cannot do that after 12 hours of taking care of these guys, you know, from the field. So, I just told him, I could not see him anymore, that you became so tight with the unit that you worked with. But it just seemed bizarre going out. SM: 05:07 Right. One of the things I have always thought about for any soldier or nurse or anyone that went to Vietnam and came back, could you— could you describe your weeks leading up to your travel to Vietnam? What was going through your mind? Were you aware of the conditions that you might be facing once you arrived there? EM: 05:29 I do not think anyone was aware of the conditions you would be facing. Or the injuries. I mean, I had done… that I— did not go right out of nursing school, I had gone to North Central British Columbia to a 46-bed hospital there and worked for a little over a year. And then I went down to California and worked there for a few months. And that was when I decided I was going to join the army. And so, I had worked emergency rooms, and, you know, serious stuff. And I thought I could handle anything. But when I got over there, these guys were so young. And they were just blown to bits. SM: 06:16 Right. EM: 06:18 And it took me years to figure out what, what was out of kilter. It was, because when, in the emergency room, everything makes sense. You know, a big fat guy comes in with a heart attack or kid without a helmet has a head injury and, you know, falling out of a tree to have a broken bone. All of these things made sense. Whereas over there, these were perfectly healthy guys that were being loaned the best. And it just did not make sense at all. SM: 06:51 When you arrived— EM: 06:53 [inaudible] coming— but go ahead. SM: 06:55 When you arrived in Vietnam, you are not— you have seen in women, probably in movies, and I have read in books about what it was like when you first got off the plane. First time ever in Vietnam, the… the environment, the heat, did you feel that? EM: 07:14 Actually, no, it just may not seem strange, but I just talked to a lot of people. But in getting off the plane, the only thing I can say is that the Earth felt so negative, so injured. Just, just the ground under which everybody was walking. And I bet that was exactly what I felt. Was that the earth was hurting over there. And, but I— and I really had no idea what I was getting into. And I said yes, I will do intensive care. And they said, great. And you— really none of the nurses really knew what they were getting into over there. SM: 08:04 What kind of medical unit or hospital did you work in. Real emergency room only? Or were— and were their several— EM: 08:12 So, I did intensive… intensive care, that is what I did, which is different from emergency room SM: 08:16 Right. EM: 08:18 That is after they go to surgery. And they come back, and we have to stabilize them, and then either they are sent to a ward, or they are sent to Japan. And… sometimes we would have to stabilize them before they went to surgery, if they came in, really a wreck. So, it just depended on what we got. You know? SM: 08:41 The— when did you meet Diane Carlson Evans? Who became your hooch mate? And was that rate early on or halfway through your time there how— EM: 08:55 It was first week through. And what I found was that you did not go over as a unit, a hospital unit. People were inserted, you know, people would come and go, and you form these bonds with people and then maybe four months into your being there, they would leave. And I found that several of the people that I was closest with, were going to leave about, the seventh month that I was there, but see, I am going to leave first. You go someplace else, maybe it will be better someplace else. So, I said to them, I do not care where I go, I will just go someplace. And so, they sent me to play coup, which is in the central highlands. And Diane actually had been in country six months also and she was making a switch and we arrived on the same day as the 71st evac and play coup, and both being from Minnesota we formed a wonderful bonds right away. So that was nice and lived in the same home which— SM: 10:00 And your basically— your responsibilities were the same as nurses. EM: 10:08 What do you mean by that? We are nurses. SM: 10:10 Yeah. But I mean that emerg— not emergency room nurses, but the ones that are really— EM: 10:16 Oh, you mean that? Yeah, I did intensive care there. SM: 10:20 Yes-yes. That is what I was— What— this is kind of a general question. But people that will be listening to these things or, you know, learning about the war. And so, could you describe what a typical day would have been for a nurse in Vietnam? Number of hours you worked, you know, was it consistent wound— heavily wounded people? Just a typical day. EM: 10:50 We worked 12 hours a day, six days a week, and then— these— it was from seven in the morning till seven at night or seven at night till seven in the morning. And your workload varied. For instance, one night I worked, and the other gal who was supposed to be there, they usually had two RMS on its night, had not come back from R&R yet. I guess the plane got delayed or something. And so, we could manage the amount that we had in one side of intensive care. The other side was the recovery room. With the corpsman that I had; we could handle that. But then we heard that we were getting six guys. And they were all pretty severely wounded. So, we, you know, got ready. And I had to tell one corpsman that he had to take care of everybody over on the intensive care side, let me know if anything was going on that I needed to know about, that— that I was going to have to be available for the troops coming in. And so, we received four of those six. And one of them was the captain. And he had such severe abdominal pain that he just could not, we were trying to stabilize him before he went to surgery. And he just could not make it. He went into cardiac arrest and died. But what was interesting about that was the— as the evening went on, because we heard about this, maybe eight o'clock, nine o'clock at night, you know, one— every once in a while, the corpsman that worked there with Scott [inaudible]. How is it going? [inaudible] Oh, let me help out! Priests, and almost all of them were there working. Now a lot of them had worked before, you know. And here they were putting in until everything became stabilized enough, which was maybe one or two o'clock in the morning. And then he had to come to work the next morning. But this is what everybody did. We just did the most you could for these guys who were injured. SM: 13:13 The— how many nurses overall served in Vietnam between, when the whole period was that we were over there? EM: 13:21 I think it was between eight— eight— seven and eight— and eight thousand. I do not think the thing is that they did not keep track of them. Diane, you know, ask the Pentagon for the names of the nurses who served at— the Pentagon told her no women were over there. SM: 13:41 Oh my god. EM: 13:44 Right. So, they did not keep track of the women at all. I mean, our names might have been on the list, but we were not looked at as women. SM: 13:53 Oh, my goodness now. EM: 13:55 So, there were I think between, I think around 8000 who served in the war zone? In the army anyway. Yeah. SM: 14:06 We know that— I think there is there were nine that were killed that were— their names are on the wall. And did they keep track of safe for— nurses that were injured? You know, we talked about the 58,200 and some that had died in Vietnam that are on the wall. But there is no known really record of the number of people that were injured in the war with lifelong injuries, mental hit situations and so forth. Did they keep track of any of that with the nurses? EM: 14:38 No, I do not think many nurses were injured. I know that one of the nurses was killed when they were attacked, you know, with rockets. And I think her ward was hit directly and she was killed. SM: 14:56 That was Sharon Lane, I think. EM: 14:59 Yes, yeah. SM: 15:00 Yeah. EM: 15:00 Yeah. And— but the other— it was, you know, circumstances, like one of them was on a helicopter going someplace and it got caught in wire, and the helicopter crashed. And so— and-and for injuries, I have not really heard of any nurses that were injured, the keeping track of what happened to the nurses after, they [inaudible] did not even know what to do with the females that came back. I know that there were several who went in the (19)80s, early (19)80s, for help from the VA, and there was just no help to be had. So, they put them in men's group. And the women started taking care of the man, because that is what we do. And the women got sicker and sicker. Because they were not really taking care of themselves at all. Then they started being alerted that the woman— and the woman demanded too that they receive, you know, the same good services that the men got, and slowly to me has really turned around, especially now that there are so many female soldiers that are going to need help. Because the female is going to react differently no matter what you do, than the male. I mean, the two of them can shoot the same person. And inside, they are both going to react differently. So, they really need females to just females. Females talking to males does not do it. SM: 16:43 It leads right into my next question and why Diane created or worked hard to make sure the Women's Memorial became a reality. Why did it take so long for nurses to be recognized in the war? And I interviewed Diane a long time ago, and she came to our campus and her stories were unbelievable. But Diane's effort to create the Women's Memorial where she had to go before hearings in Washington and I heard some Congresswomen or people in politics, were saying kind of bad things to her. I mean, just your thoughts— you-you have known Diane, just the whole process of how long it took for nurses to be recognized. EM: 17:25 Right, and luckily enough, they had Diane as the, you know, leader, because she is just tenacious, I mean, she will not give up. And if you cannot get it this way, she will go around another way. You know and try that way. And she, I mean, I would not have had the patience that she did, but she just kept going forward and forward and forward. And slowly and slowly. And the thing is that the man raised, you know, millions for the wall in three years. And the women it took 10 years and a lot of that had to do with the fact that Jan Scruggs fought us tooth and nail. He did not want that Women's Memorial on the Mall at all. And so, he if he had given us any kind of a plus, you know, then I think it would have helped a lot. But he was so anti that memorial. And even after it was built, he was anti that memorial. SM: 18:36 Was it just him or the people that worked with him too? EM: 18:40 I think he surrounded himself with people that were like minded. SM: 18:44 Because I know there was Jack Wheeler, who was a power broker too. He raised funds. Sadly, he was murdered in Wilmington, Delaware about 10 years ago, but— EM: 18:56 Oh my gosh! SM: 18:57 But he— I do not know if you knew that. EM: 18:59 No! SM: 19:00 Yeah, he is passed. He was— it is a long story. But, you know, he was the guy that raised a lot of the funds for the Vietnam Memorial, and, and he was really close to Jan. So, I do not know if he was that-that way as well. You know, you have known Diane, did she ever tell you the stories about her going before [inaudible] committees? EM: 19:24 Oh, yes. SM: 19:25 Yeah, I cannot believe— I saw one of them on YouTube. I could not believe how— I could not believe how they talked to her! EM: 19:32 I know. SM: 19:33 Could you— you-you have— you know, could you explain that? What was going on and how difficult it was for, not only to get the Women's Memorial off the ground and there might be the Jan Scruggs of the world that are against it, but what about those congress people? You know. EM: 19:51 Well, you know, it is interesting because back in the ‘80s, things were not different than they are now. And it was almost as if, this is-this is how I perceived what was going on, was that men were the heroes, and women just cleaned up the men. And men always got the medals and always, you know, statues of heroes, heroes, heroes, heroes. And it was not until the Women's Memorial that I think fee— people really felt— the women themselves felt that they might be heroes. Because women have never been thought of like that in the United States. As heroes they might have been thought of as exceptional or— but not heroic. And the women who went over there were pretty heroic. Because they were not made to go over, they volunteered to go over. And they put up with a lot of stuff. And they did a lot of hard work, you know, seven days a week sometimes. And for me, I never felt— thought of myself as a hero until after the Women's Memorial. And my kids were saying— my-my daughter has, you know, when-when I went to Mount Holyoke to speak, it was the first time I had ever spoken about it. My daughter was going to Mount Holyoke and there was a fellow there who taught a course on Vietnam. And he would start his course by saying you women will never know what it is like to be a poor. Well, of course, my daughter is a little feminist, called me up. And he was-he was taking a course on the (19)60s. And she asked her professor, because they had eight hours on Vietnam, he— she asked her professor if I could come and speak. And the guy must have been really brave, because he said yes. And so, it was the first time I had ever spoken about it. And I went up, and my daughter said that there were maybe 70 young women there. My daughter stands up and she says, I want to introduce my mother Edie, me. She was a nurse in Vietnam, and I am so proud of her. And— well, of course, I almost collapsed. But to me, that was the first time anybody had said that. And it was later, is— the young woman came up. You are my hero. Mrs. Meeks. I was so surprised! Because my generation did not think of women as heroes. But her generation does. SM: 23:13 Yeah, that is, well that— EM: 23:14 That is what is good about the whole thing. SM: 23:17 Yeah, what you are saying really is the boomer generation did not look at women as heroes. EM: 23:22 Right! SM: 23:23 Yeah, and it is interesting, because it was the-the women's movement was happening during the time that— yeah well at least the boomers were very young at that age. But still, it is still well, that is-that is a tremendous revelation. And you know, I have been to the Women's Memorial so many times over the years. And I have heard all the testimonies from many of the soldiers who served over there and-and I— and I have heard the constant revelation that you are heroes. You are heroes to them. And it is-and it is, you know, why were not they saying that before the Women's Memorial was built? EM: 24:04 I think they did not know to say it. Again, the women were just supposed to clean up the mess. That is what they have done in every war. SM: 24:14 Right. EM: 24:15 The nurse [inaudible] the guys back to health or whatever, you know, whether it was the revolution or whatever it was. You know. SM: 24:23 Did you— EM: 24:24 And- SM: 24:25 Go ahead EM: 24:26 Go ahead! SM: 24:27 No, you go ahead, you can finish. EM: 24:30 But to me that-that is really what it was about was that they did not think of these women as being heroic. And the women did not think of themselves as being heroic. They just thought, oh this is my job. You know, I consider a lot of women heroes, who take care of the guys who come back from war. That is difficult. These guys have changed. They are not the same people who left. Just to deal with everything is really tough. SM: 25:08 When both you and Diane came home, even before the-the idea of a wall or a memorial being built, did you and Diane talk a lot after you returned from Vietnam about how all Vietnam vets, including the nurses who served in Vietnam were treated on your return by the American public and then we Diana's is set up many times you have to about you are not welcomed home, as well as most of the people who served on the battlefields is— what was hap— EM: 25:40 We never discussed it at all. In fact, it was interesting, because after I spoke at Mount Holyoke, I called Diane and I said, oh, I did this and this and this, and the other thing. She said, do you know— realize Edie that we have known each other 23 years, and we have never discussed Vietnam? And I said, oh my God, you are right! But we never did. SM: 26:07 Did-did was Diana, and— both you and Diane feeling that you were not welcomed home? Which was very common, right up till about— EM: 26:15 Oh yes, yeah. I mean you never told anyone that you-that you were in Vietnam. In fact, when the Women's Memorial was going to be dedicated, somebody newfound out that I was a Vietnam vet and put a blurb in the newspaper, the little local newspaper. And people would stop me in the Grand Union, which was the grocery store, the local grocery store where everybody meets. And— my God, Edie, I have known you for 20 years. I never knew you were a nurse over there! SM: 26:42 Oh, my God. EM: 26:43 So, you never told anybody. And one of the reasons was— I can remember, I was in the hospital working. And this patient said to me, I heard you were in Vietnam. What was it like? And I just had to turn around and leave. I mean, there is no sound, like, that tells anyone what it was like. So, it is almost impossible to explain in 30 seconds. So, you just did not talk about it at all. SM: 27:18 Did you feel that— you know this, that post-traumatic stress disorder was pretty common among nurses just like it was among the rest of the troops? EM: 27:28 Oh, absolutely. Yep. Absolutely. SM: 27:30 Yeah, and— EM: 27:33 They were seeing things that they never would have seen in the States. And they were-they were working with people, you know. And-and hours, and seeing wounds and being rocketed, and you know, just doing things that they never would do in the United States. SM: 27:55 Why was it so difficult for many of the people who claim they had it, to keep trying to prove it to Veterans Affairs that they had at— let me mention though, I go to the wall every year, as you well know, Memorial Day and Veterans Day, I have been going since (19)93. Have not missed— I have only missed one. That was President Barack Obama's visit, because they forced everybody to the back. I did not like all that. By the way, what did you think, I am diverting here, but what did you think of that memorial, or the Remembrance Day when President Obama was there? And I remember Diane had to walk from the back to go to the stage. Do you remember that? It was a very— EM: 28:42 I guess I do not. SM: 28:43 Yeah, that is only one I could not come because you had that— the security was so tight. And all the people that were— EM: 28:47 Oh yes, I can! She was not allowed to sit close. Right-right. SM: 28:50 Yeah, no, none of the vets were— EM: 28:51 The guy [inaudible] SM: 28:52 The vets were in the back and all the politicians were up in the front! EM: 28:56 I know. I know. That is what it is all about. SM: 29:00 Yeah. And it really got to me. But post-traumatic stress disorder, why did it take so long for the Veterans Affairs to recognize the validity of the claims made by our service— people who served in Vietnam, and I sat next to a person five years ago who came from Wash— state of Washington, and he said he is still trying to get— he is still trying to get claims because he has post-traumatic stress disorder, but he does not have the right numbers. They would go by certain numbers, and he says— and here it is— and some are still battling to be recognized that they have it. EM: 29:39 Yep. Yep. I think it is money. 100 percent of its money. It also has to do with— I can remember when I first sent in, because Diane was the one that taught me into sending in for disability. So, I sent in, and they gave me 10 percent for hearing or something like that. She said now you go for 30 percent, because you have to keep going, you have to keep going. So, the 30 percent, you have to write up this whole thing. And I get back, denied. [inaudible] you just poured your heart out, you know, about what happened over there. And you are sitting here thinking I bet whoever read this, or did not read, it, never served. You know, some civilian who has never served, is making a judgment about whether you deserve disability or not. And the thing about disability is, you just have to be tenacious, you have to keep at it and keep at it and keep at it. Which is too bad because it is— not only do you feel that you have PTSD from the war, but after that whole thing, you feel like you have PTSD because of the VA. SM: 31:03 Oh my gosh. EM: 31:06 Because you are so angry at those people, for not trusting you and believing you. SM: 31:14 Yeah, I remember going to a hearing when I first moved from California, and Bob Edgar, the former congressman, was-was he was only a two-term congressman. But the fact is that he was really involved in this particular issue. And I got to know the Vietnam vets from Penn's Landing here in Philadelphia, they are building the wall. He said, go to the meetings, I just went to the meetings. And he was pleading the case that he was trying to make a pass some sort of resolution in Washington, making sure that anybody who makes a claim for post-traumatic stress disorder gets medical coverage. And so, I heard the horror stories that all these veterans are telling about, you know, having it, claiming it and then having to prove that they had and so it is a-it is a long, long story. And I want to go into here something about that I think you have talked about many times, in— and those people who were very seriously wounded and many who were dying in the war nurses were right with them, in fact, in their arms many times and that you became— nurses oftentimes became the substitute moms. Because-because they have that here is a 19, 20-year-old male dying and… and he— they— they are talking— they want to see their mom and all this other stuff, could you talk about some a few of those experiences where that might have happened with you? EM: 32:43 I do not think it has so much happened with me, but by the time they got to the intensive care unit, they had been pre stabilized. Some of them did die, because their infections were so great, or the wounds were so great. And I can-I can remember them asking for mom, or— and you would just be there. You know. And you really tell them whatever they wanted to hear. You know. I am here, I love you. The whole thing. Because you figure, you know, if that was my son, or if it was my brother, that is what I would want. I can remember, at one point, this gal called me up and she said, I am a Vietnam veteran. I was a nurse over there. And I am doing my PhD on post-traumatic stress with women veterans. Would you be one of the people I interviewed? I said, Sure. So, she came up to my house. She lives in this city, New York City. And she came up to my house, in Garretson, a couple of times. And then the third time she came with the final thesis. And that was the time when she started talking about herself. She never talked about herself before. And I said is there anyone that you remember that you cannot get out of your head? And she said, I remember during test. This one young man who had been— they said that he was just so injured, they did not… could not waste the time operated on him, you know, would have taken too long, and they had too many other urgent cases to do. So, they pushed him to the side. And every time she passed him, he would say, is it my turn next? And she [inaudible] to take out, it will be just— not too long now. Not too long. And every time, she said, I always wondered if in doing that I prolonged his life. Because I gave him hope, because he did die. And I said to her, your mother, what would you want for your kid? You would want somebody to recognize them. And to be kind to them. And to love them by saying, your next, your next. And then he can just go to sleep quietly. So, it is that famous thing that-that stayed with you. SM: 35:43 Yeah, you spoke at the Vietnam Memorial this past Memorial Day. It was a fantastic presentation, number one. And number two, I think you mentioned about one particular soldier that had died, are there— you— that you had connected with some of them who had passed away? Could you-could you talk a little bit about maybe one or two of the-the soldiers that you will never forget? EM: 36:09 The one that-that kept bothering me when I was not paying attention to PS— PTSD or anything, but that would pop up in my head was this young man from Kansas, from a farm in Kansas. And he had a really bad abdominal wall that had a terrible infection, and we just could not get ahead of that infection. We did not have the antibiotics that we have today, for one thing. And you— If I remember really, he was nineteen. And he got a letter from his mom, and he asked me to read it. So, I did. And his mom was telling about his dad coming in from— it was in October. Hunting, [inaudible] cornfield with the family dog and… and I used to do that with my family down in my Uncle Albert’s farm in Southern Minnesota. And then the mom told me a little bit about what was happening in the community. And at the very end, she said, besides that she loved him, we are so proud of you, son. And like, three days later, he died. And the thing was that you could not tell the parents anything. You know, I would have loved to have written letters to some of these parents, and say your son was so heroic in the way he died. And, you know, such a good kid. But you could not write anybody. You were not allowed. SM: 37:44 Wow. When you returned home, did any of the… soldiers that you had help save or in intensive care, did they ever try to contact you to thank you for helping them? EM: 38:02 No, and I have a feeling that it is because most of them were pretty out of it when they were with us in the intensive care unit. You know, we were not a stabilizing force. And if you were really, really bad we would— you had your surgery, we stabilize you until you could be shipped to Japan. And then they would form relationships with those gals. You know that? The only one that I really remember that we heard from actually that wrote us a letter was a young man who came into the emergency area. And his heart had been nicked with a boarder shrapnel or something. And they often did ‘EM: up right there and fixed it and… then he came to us. He was with us for about two weeks. And he was there over Christmas. And then he was shipped to Japan. And he wrote us back from Walter Reed and he said I am doing fine. But that was the only one we ever heard from. I do not think a lot of them knew where they were, you know, because they were either, if they were really bad off, they had a lot of narcotics to keep the pain down. Or just— SM: 39:19 Well, that is kind of what— that is kind of what the Women's Memorial has done. Because it is brought many people to verify the experiences they had with nurses and to thank them. I have seen, you know, the programs you have in the morning and the afternoon, and it is… Over the years, there is just so many, and you see the connection between the nurse and the person that they have served, they waited on, helped. EM: 39:48 Right. SM: 39:49 And that-that— EM: 39:50 It also— It also helped me quite a bit. I remember one time I was down there, because I used to go every Memorial Day and Veterans Day, and I was down there to answer questions or talk to people. And [inaudible] had a patch over one arm. And it was his first time down at the wall and on this memorial, and… So, we started chatting, and he was from New Jersey and… and I— he said, well, where were you stationed? I said Third Field Hospital, he said, I went through there! Now, we did not have a neurosurgeon. So, if you had a head injury, you were shipped out right away. But they stabilized him in the emergency area, and then shipped him out to Japan, because he did have a head injury. And with a lot of head injuries, when you saw these guys, you think, I do not know if we are doing them a favor. But here was this fellow, he had lost his eye. But he had his own business, he has three girls, three daughters. You know, he lived a good life. And I said, thank you for being here. Because some of the patients that we had, I used to think, are we doing them a favor? And it is nice to see that those you know, we worked so hard for actually did have a good life. SM: 41:17 Good. Very good. That is, that is unbelievable. That is a great story. And I honestly, you were working these unbelievable hours, six days a week, 12, 12 hours? Where did you go for rest and relaxation? Did you have opportunities for— what was R&R to you? And how often were you allowed to have it. EM: 41:42 We had art, we were allowed two [inaudible]. And the first one I took with my roommate from Saigon. And we went to Hong Kong. Now this was toward the end of— I think it was the beginning of December that we went. And, you have to remember this is like five months with no shopping. SM: 42:09 Ha-ha, oh no! EM: 42:10 Honestly, you felt like throwing your money on the street and saying give me anything! 42:15 [laughter] EM: 42:25 [inaudible] really interesting. We had our hair done, you know, [inaudible], and bought presents for home, that kind of thing. The better one I took with Diane, and we went to Thailand, to Bangkok. And that was interesting because you take a boat up the river and see the— but again, it was so surreal that you would leave these guys who kept coming in and kept coming in, whether I was there or not, you know? And you go and vacation! And then you back! And I thought it must be even more bizarre for these guys who are in the field, who leave for R&R and then come back and then they are in the field again. You know, it is, it is such— it was such a bizarre thing. But interesting. I got to go to Hong Kong and Bangkok! So… SM: 43:22 Those are— with— now— remember I asked you a question how you felt that first time you got off the plane when you landed in Vietnam. And I am now asking the question of when you are leaving. When did you return— when-when did you return home? And could you describe your last few days what you were thinking in your final day, getting on the plane, and flying back? What were you thinking about? And how did it differ from your feelings when you arrived in Vietnam? EM: 43:56 Planning to leave, you almost felt like you needed to re-up for another year. Because you felt like you had not finished. I mean, you could not finish, you know. And you— I really had to make myself go home. But, in just in this last July, because I went home in July. And it was the 50th anniversary of the person landing on the moon. The night before I left Vietnam, they landed on the moon. And I happened to be in I think it was Cameron Bay waiting for the flight the next morning. Or wherever it was, I cannot even remember where it was that I flew out, but it was not the hospital. And somebody came out of the officer's mess and said oh, come you have to see this! They are landing on the moon! And I said why would I want to see that? That is nothing. Guys are dying over here. Why aren't people paying attention? To me, the landing on the Moon was nothing. And for years, I could not watch that. There was nothing. People should have been paying attention to all those young men that were dying. SM: 45:21 Yeah, that was 19— EM: 45:22 That was how I felt about it. SM: 45:24 That was 1969! EM: 45:26 Yeah, yeah, that is when I left. SM: 45:30 Wow. How long did it take for you to adjust back into society after you returned home? And I am not talking about— I am not going to the general perception that everybody was not welcomed home. But did your family and friends react differently and welcome you home? Or were you welcome home by people that you knew before you left? Or was there kind of, a kind of a silence from them? Or a fear— EM: 45:56 Well, you were welcomed home as if you did not wait to come. You know, you were— because they knew— did not have any idea what you have just gone through. Say, you know, oh, this is wonderful, you are home! And you know, everybody comes and gives you a gift. But it is like a welcome home like you were away any place, for any reason. So, it really did not have anything to do with being in Vietnam. It had to do with this— oh, and then they would never ask! SM: 46:38 How long— EM: 46:39 They-they— SM: 46:40 Go ahead. No, you go ahead. You can finish up. EM: 46:42 So, they— they, they had no idea what it was like and in a way, it was easier that way because there is no way to explain it to them. How horrible it was. SM: 46:56 Were there movies that that you have seen since you came home that said this is really what happened over there? I know that one movie that touched a lot of people was Coming Home, the one with Jon Voight and Jane Fonda. EM: 47:15 Oh, yes. Yeah. I saw that, and it was a wonderful movie. The movie that impressed me the most and— and I did not see any of the other war movies [inaudible] from Vietnam. The only one I did see, and it was years later, was Apocalypse Now. SM: 47:32 Yeah. EM: 47:34 And I said, I do not know, you know, somebody asked me about it, I said, I do not know if, you know, what happened. Really happened. But I am telling you that the feeling of insanity and weirdness and craziness and other worlds was absolutely right. SM: 47:58 Yes. EM: 47:59 They got the feeling of [inaudible], perfectly. And that war. SM: 48:04 Francis Ford Coppola was the producer of that movie. EM: 48:09 Right. SM: 48:10 Yeah. And I agree. I know one person that I interviewed, I re-interviewed Bobby Mueller this past Monday. And he, he had mentioned to me that the movie that he thought was really— [inaudible] was really like over there was Full Metal Jacket? EM: 48:30 Ah, yeah-yeah, I have heard that. SM: 48:32 So that is the one that he said, if you want to really understand about what happened to the guys over there, you watch that movie. When you came home, did you go right back as a nurse, or did you have a break in between before you went back to being a nurse? EM: 48:49 Well actually, talk about insanity, the guy that I told I could not date anymore, when I went to play coup. He started calling me. He was still in Saigon. But he started calling me. And we talked every night. Because of the job that he did, he had the ability to get a telephone and use it anytime he wanted, I guess. And so, as if in talking to him, it kind of saved my sanity. I did not have to date him. I did not have to go anywhere. But we just talked. And when I got back— he got out of the service before I did. I still had six months actually after I got out, after I came back. And I had a month off and then I went to Madigan General at— in Tacoma, Washington. And that was… the hospital for Fort Lewis, which was a huge basic training fort. And it was not until years and years later, that it dawned on me— you know, I thought, oh, well, of course, I will do intensive care nursing! I am used to that! That is the thing, you see I must have been crazy! But [inaudible] so you get there, and you are dealing with things that are totally different. But, to me, just as horrifying, and I did not realize that until later. Some of the things that were horrifying was that kids would come in with meningitis and die. They would die. And he had just been into basic training! And the parents would come. And they are saying to themselves, we just set this kid off to basic training. But because there was no vaccine or anything back then. You know, you just had to hope that the sergeant would pick up on it and send the kid to, you know, to get help. But sometimes the charities would say, just suck it up. [inaudible], you know, and by that time, they would come to us, the meningitis was so bad that we could not get ahead of it. SM: 51:06 Well, after Vietnam, of course, you got involved with Diane and the creation of the Women's Vietnam memorial that opened tonight and opened in 1993. And I know you have been involved in so many other projects, like the one you are involved in now with a purple heart. And could you describe those years? I know you were on the board, too, with Diane, I believe, could you describe those years of being with Diane and the battles in— kind of put it all together in terms of the initial first meetings to in the opening of the memorial in (19)93. I mean, just from your perspective, because you were on the board, and you were a close friend of Diane's. So, because people who are people who are going to be listening to this will probably many of them will have already visited the Vietnam Memorial and making sure that they visit the Women's Memorial as well. And it was not easy getting it. And that, that the only reason it is there is because of the tenacity, and the drive of people like Diane and yourself that makes sure that women were presented. So just your thoughts. EM: 52:16 Well, Diane was persistent. I did not— she would call me, and she would say we need somebody on the East Coast. Then I would say call somebody else, I do not-I do not know how you can talk about this. I cannot talk about it then. And it was not until up maybe a year and a half before— the dedication, that she called me she said, we really need people on the East Coast to talk about this, would you, do it? And I thought about it, I said, I will do it under one condition that I can stop anytime I want. Or if he asked me a question that I do not like, I do not have to answer it. And she said, great. So, I started talking to people. And the first time again that I talked in front of-in front of a group of people was Mount Holyoke. And what really happened with me being on the board was after the dedication of the memorial, I decided that I was going to go every Memorial Day and every Veterans Day to see Diane. And the second time we were there, I think it was second or third year. There were some people who were pretty rude to her. And she told me about it later. And I said, well, that is it. Diane, I am going to be there every time with you and just follow you around and watch your back. And nobody is going to speak to you like that ever again. Okay, so that is really what I did. We were just— we stuck together. And I was not going to let anybody abuse her ever again. And one year, I went down there, and she came in, she said, well, you are on the board. And I said I am? She said, yeah, I figured it was coming down, you might as well be on the board anyway. So, I said, okay, whatever you want. I also backed her up on the board because sometimes we would have problems with people who have their own agenda. And so, I would just backer with whatever Diane felt was right. SM: 54:47 Do you ever yourself have flashbacks, remembering those times in Vietnam. You could be in a mall or you are at-you are up at a fairground and you hear a helicopter flying in or— EM: 55:03 Oh, yeah, those are—or fireworks. Forget it, you know? I remember when I was asked to speak at the dedication of the Huey helicopter at the Smithsonian. SM: 55:22 Oh, wow. EM: 55:23 And it was the first time that any aircraft had flown over the mall since 9/11. So, I said, oh, sure! You know, you are gawking this thing like an idiot. And I— actually in my speech, I talked about the sound. But then, the helicopter comes, we are all standing outside. The helicopter comes in, it flies by. And it is not supposed to fly over the Vietnam Memorial, because they said so, well, of course, being Vietnam vets, all those guys did, you know. So, they flew down to the Vietnam Memorial, flew over it, and then flew back. And again, it was that hearing it before you saw it. And you could hear that. And then it slowly came into view, and then it landed and all these guys in fatigues got out. And I thought, I mean, I was like in shock. And then I had to speak. So, I spoke, and after the captain came up to me up the helicopter, and he said, have you been inside a Huey in Vietnam? I said, no. He said, would you like to? I said, no, I do not even want to get near it! He said, okay, sorry. So, he just tuck my hand, my arm under his. And we slowly were chatting, he was chatting with this person and that person, and he slowly walks to the door of the Smithsonian and then we walk through the door. Slowly we walk towards the helicopter. And we walked up to it. And he said, would you like to touch it? And he gave me the right to say no. Which I love. But I did. I touched it. And it was, it was extremely moving. I was supposed to be at a reception that night. And I said to them, I have to go home. I have to leave. So, I got my turn. I drove back to New York. It was really overwhelming. SM: 57:56 I never served in Vietnam yet when I come there every year to Memorial Day and Veterans Day as they are clearing out the area making sure there is no bombs, you know, the dogs that they bring down in there. They have this help. They have this helicopter flying overhead during that 12 to one o'clock timeframe, you know, when they are making sure everything is okay from before the ceremony starts. To me, I am not a Vietnam veteran, but that bugs the heck out of me, wondering if that is bugging of the veterans themselves, because of that-that sound, it is that sound— EM: 58:33 If it was a Huey helicopter, it would because it has— the Huey has a distinctive sound. SM: 58:39 Okay. EM: 58:40 A very distinctive sound. And so that would trigger a lot, I think. SM: 58:46 Yeah. EM: 58:47 You say helicopter, helicopter. You know, not so much. SM: 58:50 Yes, you know it is a— EM: 58:51 The thing that I thought was odd was I went to the dedication of the South Dakota Vietnam memorial. They asked someone to come from the Women's Memorial to be present. I said, okay. And after the ceremony, they had all these fireworks in the middle of the day. I thought, are these people insane? SM: 59:16 My gosh. EM: 59:17 Who thought of fireworks? I mean, I cannot stand fireworks to this day, SM: 59:21 Right. What do all Vietnam nurses have in common in your view, and at the same time, where do they most differ? When relating to the time they were in Vietnam? EM: 59:43 Oh, well, you know what I could say about having in common because everybody's experience is different. If you are on a malaria ward, you are experienced would be different from mine in an intensive care unit, or triage, or-or, or… And also, the war was different in different times. I remember a friend of my daughter’s; he is a dentist. And he went to Vietnam, I think it was 1966. It was early anyway. And he said, oh, would you like to come over and see the pictures that I took over there? I asked how on earth can he, you know, see more pictures of this? But they went as a unit to set up a hospital, which was fine. Nobody else did that after that. And the war was not really raging. (19)68, (19)69 there was a lot of fighting. (19)70 to (19)71, not so much fighting, but a lot of drugs. And the guys would come in with drug overdoses. So, it was different kinds of nursing at different times. Over there. SM: 1:01:19 Right. If you had to do it all over again, would you go back? If you were younger? EM: 1:01:26 Oh yeah. SM: 1:01:27 You would? EM: 1:01:28 Yeah. SM: 1:01:29 Have you returned— EM: 1:01:31 In fact, every nurse, I have talked to has said, in a minute. You know, if it all happened again, and would you say yes, and everyone said, yes, I would go. SM: 1:01:43 Have you returned— EM: 1:01:44 And even thought it was traumatizing and life changing, it was worth it. SM: 1:01:48 Right. Have you returned to Vietnam? EM: 1:01:52 No, and I will never go. And that is just me. You know, I remember when my daughter came to me, she said, mom I am going to Vietnam for vacations! I was like what!? A friend of hers was working over in Hanoi. And so, she is like, come on over! You know, go around. And she said, is there any place, you know, that is special that you want me to stop, and see? I said, no, just bring back new memories. SM: 1:02:27 Yeah, I think it is one of the number— one of the top honeymoon places in the world. EM: 1:02:34 Well, it is less expensive than a lot of places. I know that. So, I think that— SM: 1:02:37 Right. Yeah, I know somebody who went on their honeymoon over there. And they said it was it was unbelievable how beautiful the country is. EM: 1:02:46 Yes, yeah. That is what my daughter said too. That it is really [inaudible]. She said also, now this was, oh, gosh. Late (19)90s, I think that she went, and she said, and everybody was so friendly. But she said, but 50 percent of the population was not born— SM: 1:03:08 Yeah, that is true. EM: 1:03:09 —you know, then. So, none of them know what they have— what everybody went through. SM: 1:03:16 This— I am going into a section here now where I am just asking questions about the war. Your thoughts on the war? Did you support America’s involvement in the war as a nurse? And how about right after you returned home from the war? It has been many years later, do you support the war effort? And was it— or do you feel it was a mistake overall? You know, I have also wondered, when I see veterans, you know, their thoughts on the antiwar movement and those who were protesting at home, whether they— you were aware that what was going on at home with on the campuses and in the streets of America, all the protests. I know I threw out a lot there, but just your thoughts on the war overall. EM: 1:04:00 Well, first of all, my brother Charles, the youngest brother, he was arrested for protesting. And somebody said to me, well, how did you feel about that? And I said, well, I knew that my brother loves me, but he hated the war. And he was draft eligible, and he said, if he had been drafted, he would have gone. But he really felt that his duty was to protest the war. Personally, I feel that if the war had not been protested, we would still be there fighting and wasting lives. And I when I went over, I had no feeling one way or another about the war. You know I was just there to help. But I— and I went— the end of July, by the end— by October, I was so filled with rage and anger against our government and against the army, that I just had to really stomp it down. That was part of that— just kind of, you had to do away with your emotions, you know. I mean, we were not allowed to mourn the guys that we lost. Because we did not have time for one thing. You know, you were not allowed to say how angry you were at the army for wasting these guys. Because they felt like you were just sending them out there, only out there who cares? You know, let us send more numbers out there, and then we will win. Well, that is not how it works. And because we were the nurses that took care of them, we knew that these were not just numbers. These were sons, somebody's son, somebody's brother, somebody's, you know, lover, somebody's husband, somebody's father. And that is why when the Iraq war started, my PTSD went wild. And I was talking to my psychiatrist about it. And he said, the reason why it is affecting you so much because— channel 15, the public station that we have, would show pictures of each of the guys that was— or girls, that were killed. And he said, people look at those, and they are just faces and they are numbers. You look at them and you know, they are people because you have seen that before. So, for you, they are all very personal. And that is why it is so difficult for you. SM: 1:06:44 Were you, you know, not only were you having emotional issues with the men and who are dying in the battles, are dying in the hospitals. But how about the citizenry of Vietnam, a lot of the antiwar movement was involved in wanting to bring the boys home, so that they— we would not have any more death. And secondly, against all the massive killing of the Vietnamese citizens. With saturated bombing all over the place, the numbers game, you know, killing, they were even keeping track of the amount of animals that they were killing. They are, they are doing anything to build up numbers. And at least we do not do that today, at least I hope we do not in the saturated bombings when we are in the Middle East. But your— did— were you-were you sensitive enough to know what was going on to the Vietnamese people, too? EM: 1:07:45 I think at the time, you are so concerned about your own people, that you could care less. Whether they are Vietnamese, whether they were suffering [inaudible], you could care less about, you know, because you are caring for your guys. And the fact that these poor guys should not be here in the first place. And it was— one of the things that I became very cynical when I was over there was the fact that when there is war, and this has proved out to be true in Iraq, the first thing you should look at is who is making the money. And the problem: with that is that you are making the money on the lives of citizens. You know, these are not hired thugs that you hired for your army. These are citizen soldiers. That have gone because their country has asked them to. And to use them up so somebody can make money, to me, is the most appalling thing in the world. SM: 1:09:02 That is prophetic. Prophetic, not pathetic, prophetic. Because I think, because I think Bobby has said that— Bobby Mueller has said the same thing. In some of his deep thoughts about war. EM: 1:09:19 Yeah. Follow the money. SM: 10:09:21 Yeah. And yep, he is always following the money. When John Kerry went before the Fulbright Committee, the Foreign Relations Committee. A lot of people— Vietnam Veterans Against the War he represented, and in the description of the atrocities that took place in Vietnam, not only the atrocities that were being committed by our troops, but some of the descriptions of what was actually happening in there. Were you aware of that? Were you aware of some of these— EM: 1:09:56 You know, it is kind of like with My Lai. When My Lai happened, and they publicized it, I thought to myself, I can totally understand why that happened. These guys were all young, really young. They were not like— I guess the average age during World War Two was 26. These guys were 18 and 19! And they were marked by somebody who was 21! And they did not have much leadership over there. Everybody was passing the buck. And to me, to be put out in the field, to be afraid, day after day after day, for your life. To not trust anyone. You never do. I mean, that was true, in Saigon they told us do not kick the cans, when you are walking down the street, you see a can, do not kick it. Could have an explosive in it. And you never knew. Because they did not wear uniforms. It was not like, oh, here is the enemy and there is not. You know, we had— I remember we had a desk clerk who worked with us in the intensive care unit. And one morning, he was not there. And I said, well, what happened to so and so? Oh, he was killed last night, he was VC. We never knew that! SM: 1:11:31 Oh, my gosh. Sheesh. EM: 1:11:35 And so, you just did not know who your enemy was. And you could get crazy up there. It is kind of like when my daughter went with me for the dedication. And she came back to the room. She said, Mom, your guys down at the [inaudible] wearing their uniforms. What is with that? And I said, Gwyneth, your brother is now 19. The most he has ever done, in the wild, is to float down the Delaware with the Boy Scout troop. Think of him being put into basic training, and then dropped in the middle of the jungle, and living in fear, for a year. He would come back a different person. SM: 1:12:26 When the Vietnam Veterans formed that organization, Vietnam Veterans Against the War, I think it was around the time you came home, although they were at the 1970 Republican convention. I know Bobby was in that group. What did you think of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War because they were throwing their— this is right about the time that John Kerry did the presentation before the Foreign Relations Committee. They threw their-their medals away. EM: 1:12:59 Yeah. SM: 1:13:00 What did you think of— what do you think the majority of the Vietnam Veterans thought of this group in the beginning, even though that more and more were joining as the years went on, and what did the nurses think? You in particular? EM: 1:13:15 I do not— for me, I was all for it. Because I was totally against that war. I thought it was a useless war, that we were just throwing our young men away. For no reason. Because they were not allowing them to win the war. I mean, we had rules. And the Viet— they— Vietcong had no rules. They could do whatever they want. And so, we were— they said to us, and if you break those rules, it is against the law, you know, and you will be prosecuted. Well, none of the North Vietnamese were prosecuted for any of those things. And they did whatever they needed to do to win. I think that is just sad as it is, I did not— the only episode I have watched of the Ken Burns Vietnam thing with the first one, because I knew it would be about history. And the sad thing to me is that we turned Ho Chi Minh away when he came for help. SM: 1:14:27 That is right. EM: 1:14:28 He came to us first and said, we want to have a united country. SM: 1:14:37 Yes, I— EM: 1:14:38 And what a sad thing that is, you know? SM: 1:14:41 He was just a figurehead really. At the end of the war, he-he really had no impact. He was just a figurehead and of course eventually died before the war ended. But, that whole thing about Harry Truman had got a letter after World War II from Ho Chi Minh saying how much he admired Thomas Jefferson and the Declaration of Independence and then the story was we just gotten over a terrible war and Truman did not want to [inaudible] linked with another conflict someplace else. So, he just kind of avoided Ho Chi Minh. Boy, if Harry Truman had responded in friendship to Ho Chi Minh my golly— EM: 1:15:19 I know. SM: 1:15:20 I mean this never would have happened. History is amazing. When you are— when you think about Diane— we brought up Jan Scruggs and Jack Wheeler were— and I think, Bob Lubeck, or Dewback. Were the three men that were— really created the Vietnam Memorial, as an idea. Were you at the 1982 opening of the wall? EM: 1:15:39 No, I would not have gone for anything. I was still, for me, it was still too, too raw. I was [inaudible] SM: 1:15:53 Because it, you know, they got the documentary on that, that particular day. And oh, my golly, it is like everything changed on that day in terms of the views toward Vietnam veterans. The feeling of that they felt proud of what, you know, the brotherhood was amazing. And I am sure the sisterhood with nurses was amazing. It was just like a coming together, and kind of changed, for the better, the views of America and towards those who served in Vietnam, and in the remembrance, events have been there ever since I believe I know. Jan was the moderator for many years. Diane, in the Women's Memorial, she represented for quite a few years, your thoughts on the Vietnam Memorial, the battle to get the memorial in the first place? And then finally, here with Jan wrote his first book was the— To Heal a Nation. And we know that the effort was to heal the families of Vietnam vets and those who died and so forth. But it is a lot— it is a big question here. But your thoughts on that whole battle too, which eventually led to the Women's Memorial, being on the wall, even Jan [inaudible] may have opposed it. I mean, everything comes with a battle. EM: 1:17:10 Right, right, right. Well, everything does come, you know, with a battle. And I think— I bet the battle people never served. And that is the key is that these people never served. Those are the ones that are saying no. And that is why I think somebody mentioned the other day, everybody should do some kind of service. You know, whether it is in country or, you know, no matter what it is, you could do some kind of service for their country for a year or two. And I totally believe that. SM: 1:17:57 I do too. And— EM: 1:18:01 And then when the veterans calm, they would have some kind of— I mean, here are people who— their big thing in Congress or the Senate has been making money. And they just consider veterans parasites. You know, they use them when they want to make more money with a war. But then after they are parasites. SM: 1:18:32 Did the wall help heal our nation from that war? And because I still, I guess, I guess me, some people say I am obsessed with Vietnam and just move on. We are in 2019 now, but I see so many from lessons that we learn and then lessons that we have learned and lost. And I think it is healed a lot of the Vietnam vets. But— EM: 1:19:00 Yes, yeah. SM: 1:19:01 How about the need— how about the nation? Those are— because the divisions were so intense back then. EM: 1:19:11 And actually, for my generation, sometimes it still is. There is still some people that I cannot discuss it with. You know, that, and that is okay. As long as I know that I just will not discuss it with them. But I know what I know. And, but the thing is about that war, and the healing to me would be if they have learned something, right. And when the first George Bush said, oh, we are going into Kuwait to help the people. I said, they are lying to us again, they are going in there for the oil! If you just tell us the truth, and that was the biggest thing for me was that they lied all the time, about Vietnam. All the time. They lied why we are there. They lied, you know, about the numbers. They lied about getting out. SM: 1:20:12 Yeah, it was George Bush. It was George Bush who said the Vietnam syndrome is over. Remember, he said that in 1989? And I thought that I do not think he knows what he is talking about. EM: 1:20:25 Right? He does not. Yeah. SM: 1:20:27 Yeah. So, this— you— what you just said, there it goes right into this next question is, as time goes on, why must we must, why must we never forget the Vietnam War? And the lessons learned or lost from that war? Why is it important to remember rather than being, just then being a lost footnote in history, which seems to be all events had happened in history. 120 years should now like we are talking about the Civil War and reading all the books, while we are doing the same thing about the Vietnam War. But— EM: 1:21:03 I think the biggest thing that the American people, at least some of them, learned from the Vietnam War was to question the government. And to say, wait a second, is this really real? You know, because the government, again, is going to do whatever it wants. But it is actually the people that say, I beg your pardon? You know, and that is one of the reasons, for me, sending people over there. 345 tours over to Iraq, and Afghanistan is cruel and unusual punishment. If you do that, you should be giving them $100,000 a year when they retire. And every medical benefits they need, but they do not. They give them a hard time. And if you are injured, sick, they give them a hard time. And to me the torture that these people have had to go through. I mean, we had to go for a year. It is true, now their tour, I think is six months or something. But we have to go for a year. And what happens is… your mind gets twisted, but then you go back a second time. Pretty soon, it feels comfortable. Because you are used to the adrenaline and the camaraderie and all that— when you come home, it is even harder. And then you come back, and you are supposed to be normal! That is the thing. They are going to expect you to be normal. Nobody is normal! I think that the biggest thing about Vietnam is, question the government, always question the government, because there are people in the government who are not there for the good of the people. SM: 1:23:00 Do you consider— EM: 1:23:02 They are there for good of themselves. SM: 1:23:05 Yeah, I always say that the people that serve this nation, in the military, are our heroes, because they put their lives on the line. And I will always believe that. There is a bad, but there is bad within every group. But the majority of them are heroes. But I go a step further here. I also feel that those who are in the anti-war movement in the United States, and then even other parts of the world too that were genuinely, I mean, genuine, honestly, not to just create, you know, controversy and problems and everything. The [inaudible] were generally against the war because they wanted to bring our troops home, so no more of them would be killed, and certainly to say the Vietnamese citizens, I consider them heroes too. EM: 1:23:48 Right. Oh absolutely, absolutely. SM: 1:23:51 Yeah, and so— and I have said this to Randy Davis, who I have gotten to know quite well, who was one of the biggest activists in America at that time. He did— he was the organizer of the moratorium. And, and he says, well, thanks, Steve. But I really believe that because they— a lot of them were arrested, they were spied on they have, you know, there is just, it is just a case that if they were genuinely caring about the lives of our troops, and the people of Vietnam, and that is what— but if they are only doing it to raise hell. I am not speaking of them. So, do you feel the same way too? EM: 1:24:28 Oh, absolutely. In fact, the money that I send these days is to Veterans for Peace. SM: 1:24:35 Oh, yes. EM: 1:24:36 And to vote vets, who— finance veterans who are running for office SM: 1:24:46 Yeah, I kind of wish John McCain was still with us. Because no matter what you thought about him, I do not care whether he is Republican or Democrat man. He was outspoken, and we miss him in Congress, believe me, we miss him? EM: 1:25:01 Yeah, I know. SM: 1:25:02 When you— I am— EM: 1:25:04 It is really— it is such a shame because you are looking at the-the Republicans in Congress and you say to yourself, none of them speak up, what is wrong with them? You know, when verbal abuse is happening or bullying is happening or whatever, I cannot get over that, but none of them speak up. SM: 1:25:25 Yeah, it is you know, that whole term when we call about a politician or a statesman or stateswoman, we do not have, we do not have enough of them. And today— EM: 1:25:37 I know. SM: 1:25:38 And that bugs me. When I think of the (19)60s, I think of, you know, whether you liked the senators or not, I think of Edwin Muskie, I think of Gaylord Nelson. I know, William Fulbright, early in his years was a bigot. We know that when he was in Arkansas, but he was a hell of a senator. I am talking about statesman now, even the Kennedys, and Dr. King who was a— it is just a different— it is just something— there is something missing. When you when you think of the 1960s and (19)70s. What is the first thing that comes to your mind? EM: 1:26:14 Oh, boy. I think Vietnam. It was [inaudible], it was interesting, because when my daughter had asked me to speak, and she said she was taking a course on the (19)60s and I said, is that history already? I could not believe it! She said, mom, that was one of the most amazing decades in the history of the United States. And I never thought of it that way. But it is true. You know, with Martin Luther King and Kennedy and all of these people. So many changes, you know, even just women's [inaudible] coming true You know, and then the early (19)70s, then they finally made birth control legal. Which, I am sure that the young people today are just amazed that it ever was illegal. SM: 1:27:19 Yeah, is there one particular event in the (19)60s and (19)70s, that stands out above all the others in your view? EM: 1:27:35 There were just so many of them. The one that popped into my head, I do not think this was the most, you know, traumatic one, but was the one where the Russian ships were going to deliver something to Cuba. I was in nursing school at the time. And they put everyone on alert. And that if something happened, everybody would be high stepping notch in what they would have to do. Because they would have— who knows what would happen? You know if we had to go to war with Cuba or Russia. You know that to me was a real surprise. That— SM: 1:28:25 That was that was the (19)62, yeah that was the (19)62 Cuban Missile Crisis. EM: 1:28:32 Right-right. SM: 1:28:35 And now history has shown we were lucky to have JFK is our president. No question about it. EM: 1:28:41 Yes, yeah. SM: 1:28:44 It has been said that what made the (19)60s and (19)70s was the spirit of the times of feeling that everything was possible about the about once future that we were going to end the war, bring peace to the world. And racism, sexism, homophobia. There was it was just a feeling. Your thoughts on the concept that the (19)60s was about spirit? And please do not— my phone is ringing. Do not worry about that. EM: 1:29:24 I think it has to do with a lot of different things. The (19)50s were what I would call very controlled. You know, being a Catholic in the (19)50s its church was extremely controlling then. Really, you know, I— it is the kind of thing where I tell people when I was in grade school and they taught about, you know, “Thou shalt not steal,” they told us that if you steal $7 or more, it is a mortal sin. If you steal less than that it is a menial sin. So, it was that kind of thing where everybody needed to know what the rule was. And I said, but nobody ever said, you do not steal because it is not nice, and it hurts people. And it does not belong to you. Nobody ever said that. It was about the punishment. I told that to somebody who was there when I went to New York. She said, oh my God in New York was $12! SM: 1:30:28 I never heard this! Wow that is... EM: 1:30:31 Yeah. But I think it is because we were so controlled. Remember, Donna Reed? SM: 1:30:39 Oh, yeah, The Donna Reed Show. Yes. EM: 1:30:40 Perfect housewife, the perfect this, the perfect that. And then the (19)60s came and it was like, you know, we do not want this. We want real, not perfect. I [inaudible] now I do not remember this too much. But I remember going through that whole era where they persecuted Hollywood, you know, communists. What was his name? SM: 1:31:15 McCarthy era? EM: 1:31:16 Yes. The McCarthy era. I think that-that really wrapped around somebody— some people's heads too, you know, that this was not what we want in our country. We want freedom, we want openness. And I think that is really what, you know, the people were saying that this— because I can remember I was in California 1967. Everybody was doing everything. And the thought process was anything you believe is fine. Which for me was great, because it really opened a lot of doors as to what I wanted. And a God and what I wanted in a belief, which really held me through Vietnam. SM: 1:32:05 Right. You know, we— took mentioned The Donna Reed Show, there was Father Knows Best too that was, that was very popular— The Danny Thomas show and all those shows about families that went right into the early (19)60s as well. And then began the early (19)70s with All in the Family. Archie Bunker and oh, wow. Anyways, what was the watershed event in the (19)60s in your view? Might be repeated the further earlier question, but I hear from a lot of people that— might remember Paul Critchlow? You know, Paul, I interviewed as well, he is unbelievable. And he said he went into the service to go to Vietnam because he felt I had to be involved in the watershed event of my generation, which was the Vietnam War, and, you know, Paul could have gone on to grad school, you know. And they came in he, he was at Nebraska and, and of course, he was treated poorly when he returned home to Nebraska too. So, yeah, and a watershed is something that I have always heard as a history major is it is what is the event that really that stands out in the (19)60s and (19)70s. It can be something that happened one day, or it could be what you just described your— earlier the Vietnam War too EM: 1:33:50 I do not think that there was a watershed thing for me. I think that— because there just kept being one huge thing after another, you know, a death here and then another death, and then another death. You know, people kept selling off the good guys. And you are saying to yourself, how come nobody ever shoots the bad guys? But— and then Vietnam, and I think the whole, that whole decade is, especially the second half of that decade, was huge for me. SM: 1:34:35 At here at Binghamton University, I have tried to persuade the people I work with here on the new center, that when we talk about the (19)60s we are talking really up to 1973. I— you know, what happened from 1960 to (19)73. You had the Kennedy assassination, obviously, ending— although really the beginning of the first half of the (19)60s. And then you have got, as some people have said, all hell broke loose after (19)63 Right through (19)73. Because you know what happened in (19)70. And then (19)71, and (19)72, and (19)73 was really almost again, part of the (19)60s. And then all of a sudden things change. And by (19)75, it was no more because the commune movement and everything, the rise of the radical right in the religious community, and there is a whole lot happening. But anyways. EM: 1:35:35 But also, Nixon was— Nixon left. And then after he left, war was finally ended. He was elected to end the war. But he liked Johnson. Why? Because I can remember Jackson was saying, oh, no, we are not going to—this was during the election kind of thing—we are not going to spend any more troops over there. And then of course, he did. SM: 1:36:08 Yeah, it was, it was just so many different lies. I remember the first lie to me, and I was very young, was the U-2 crisis with Eisenhower, where he went on national— when he went on the national television in 1959, and said the guy was not a spy over Russia. Very obvious he was lying. And, you know, I do not— I am not going to, you know, that is the one time I disliked him. But, you know, I remember that as a specific lie in front of the American public about it about the U-2, Gary Powers. And then we start the whole thing going into Vietnam. So, it is kind of— the Boomers were kind of— saw it over and over again, if you could describe the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s. What would be the qualities you admire or and the qualities you least admire? The Boomer generation? EM: 1:37:05 Well, the best quality was that a lot of them thought outside the box, which had not been done before. And the boxes usually had been built by people who wanted to control people. And so now these guys and gals were thinking outside the boxes. It scared the, you know, the box builders. But for humankind, I think it was a great thing. You know that they were thinking, wait a second. And the biggest thing, again, that I think— one of the biggest things that the Vietnam War did for the people of the United States was, taught them not to trust the government, and to think for themselves. And to question. SM: 1:38:02 Well, that is something that is continuing because we are seeing so much questioning today. It is amazing. EM: 1:38:07 Right. SM: 1:38:08 Yeah, the question though— question we ask, though, is how many of those people who are questioning are really part of that Boomer generation or generations that follow? Like the millennials, and Generation Y and so forth. 1:38:23 But— actually, the boomer generation has really been a disappointment, I think, in that they did not follow up on a lot of what they hoped would happen, SM: 1:38:35 Right. Yeah— EM: 1:38:39 I think that a lot of the generations, like my daughter's generation, my daughter and son, are— is very proactive. My daughter is gay. And so, she is very proactive. You know, never before would you have been able to. SM: 1:38:58 Yeah, I think there is some very clear of strengths that came out. And there is some clear weaknesses as well. And the one thing that that I think is to me, and I just want your thoughts on this, and this was for— I am not paraphrasing Bobby Muller, but you know, he says, as the (19)60s move on, you know, we need to move on. But he did say one thing. And that was the lack of trust in our leaders, that seems to be common among the boomers. And the boomers because of the lies, the continuing of lies, lack of trust. And if you can recall, this was across the board. It was not only lack of trust in our president, but lack of trust in the head of the Board of Supervisors, the head of the like a president of the college and a university, the minister or priest or anybody in positions of authority or responsibility, anyone who was supposedly the head of a manager of a bank, they were all bad because you could not trust them because they were leaders. And that seems to have been across the board. And when you have Vietnam and Watergate and some of the other things… I— do you agree— EM: 1:40:19 But it turned out to be right. I mean, look at the Catholic Church. You know, you could not trust them because they were not trustworthy with your kids. SM: 1:40:27 Right, yeah so— EM: 1:40:31 The lack of trust was right! SM: 1:40:36 You have those, though, that this is a real— this is a— would be a great classroom discussion. Because philosophy, because the people that believe that— people that do not— are constantly— do not trust others, cannot be a leader. Because you have got to be able to understand— you got to be able to be trusted to be a leader, number one. And you have got to be able to do things that make people believe in you. So, if you are constantly not trusting others, who is going to trust you? So— EM: 1:41:06 I do not think it is that, that trusting others. I think it is, certain people in authority that are not trusted. You know, if you, say, running for office, you should trust the people that are helping you out. And you should trust what you believe in. But I certainly would not trust any big government people. And I would think, you know, I would be suspicious if some big company came and said, we really want to back you. Because what do they want? Nobody does it for free? So, there are a lot of people who are not trustworthy. SM: 1:42:00 Well, I know the— EM: 1:42:02 I do not think being suspicious and being careful is a bad thing. You know, if somebody comes to me, and I am a senator and says, oh, this is really— it would be great, it would be great. Why? Is it great for you? Or is it great for my people? SM: 1:42:27 Getting back to Vietnam, you know, they always I work in a university for many years, and universities are supposed to be a microcosm: of society. They always say that. Now, when you look at the Vietnam War, and you even mentioned it that, that the drugs kind of become very prevalent in the (19)69-(19)73, or whatever, period in Vietnam. And we all hear about the music that was being played over in Vietnam, just like the music being played in America at the time. What— you know, and the whole racism: issue between Black and white soldiers and troops, was what was happening in Vietnam, the same thing that was happening in America in the social scene? Where the tensions between people of color and people who were white, was prevalent, but of course, we all know that when you are in a war zone, you believe you work as a unit. So that kind of goes away when you are in battle. But it is when you are not in battle. Your thoughts on— was Vietnam a microcosm of what was happening in America? EM: 1:43:35 And I have no idea. The only thing I know is, it did not matter what color you were, if you were one of my corpsmen, you were part of the team. And it did not matter what color you were, if you came in as a patient, you were a patient. And that is all I really knew about any kind of, you know, it was not so— where I was, there was no conflict because we needed everybody. And you did depend on them. And they did work as a team. So, really was not a question for me, but I was not, you know— SM: 1:44:13 Did the increase in drug usage over there really hurt the war effort and in terms of— degrade our military preparedness? EM: 1:44:26 I do not think it hurt the war effort. Because from what I understand, a lot of the drugs taken over there were taken because they kind of let up. And were not really planning on winning the war. They were just kind of in a waiting. SM: 1:44:45 Yes. Okay. That is, it is a good description. EM: 1:44:49 And so, if you are bored, what do you do? And they were so readily available. That I am sure that people just said, well, let me try it, let me see what. If you are really busy shooting people, you do not take drugs. Or if you are busy just trying to stay alive, you do not take drugs. SM: 1:45:14 Or if you are concentrating to get the job done, you do not take drugs. Did you— EM: 1:45:17 Right. And if you have time on your hands in the middle of a jungle or whatever, or in the middle of Saigon or in the middle of whatever, then you might take drugs if they are available. Because who wants to be over there anyway? SM: 1:45:31 Yeah, the boomer generation when they were young, lot of them thought felt that they were the most unique generation in history, because of all the things we talked about earlier, they are going to make the world better for everyone. And they were not going to end things that have been here forever on planet Earth, like racism, sexism, so forth. Your thoughts, the boomer generation, were they the most unique group, ever? And secondly, have you changed— how did you feel about it when you were young? Being a part of it. And secondly, how do you feel now that you are a lot older? EM: 1:46:09 I think, as a group… What happened was a lot of stuff happened. It was not just civil rights. It was civil rights and women's rights, and, you know, on and on and on, about opening a lot of ideas. And it did not all get taken care of. But all of the ideas came out. And I think that-that was important, because so many they have been worked on, you know, one of the things that was allowed was all this fight about women's rights. Now, that is kind of, to me, a no brainer. But men seem to fight it like cats and dogs. And it is a power thing. You know, it is the same with just my kids. But the same with abortion. It is fine. If you do not believe in abortion, then do not have one. But if somebody else believes something totally different than you, what makes them wrong? You know, you are saying that what you believe is right, well, that fits right for you. But it is like kind of like religions, religions are all different. So, if you believe that life starts at the instant at conception, God bless you, do not have an abortion. But if somebody else actually believed, because of her whole, you know, that life happens at the moment of birth, then she has the right to do whatever she wants with her body. And yet, there are people who want to force their beliefs on other people. SM: 1:48:10 When you look at the (19)60s and (19)70s, I always say early (19)70s, not all (19)70s I should say. Who are the good guys? Who are the bad guys? Who are the good girls or the bad women, the good women, I mean, it can be a group, or it could be an individual. EM: 1:48:36 I cannot think of any bad. The groups just were. And they all were for a different reason. You know, some-some of the African American people became more militant, because they felt that the peace thing did not work. I do not think that is necessarily bad. I think it is just that they were so frustrated they could hardly see straight, and they had been waiting for 100 years. That is a long time. You know, since the Civil War. And same with women's rights. Some woman was strident. And some women were, you know, wrap yourself in cellophane when your husband comes home. So— I think all of the ideas need to be out there. And all of them need to be looked at. And hopefully sanity overtakes. SM: 1:49:49 Right. And I guess— I am going to end right here because I have gone back to the Women's Memorial and the Three-Man statue and the Maya Lin’s Vietnam Memorial. When you enter that sacred ground, every time you go there, and you look at the wall, and you kind of— I do this even though I did not serve Vietnam, but Vietnam had such an influence on my life, and my peers’ lives. I like to be there alone sometimes. So, I will walk on the side where the Washington Monument is monument is where it is not as crowded. And I will just stand there for 30, 20-30 minutes. And I go back to when I was young, college, and all the things, watching the TV, like we all did during the war, the first war that was shown to the American public. And all these flashes go through my head, memories of back, what goes through your mind? When if when you go back there and look at the wall? I know you see the names there. But do you see— EM: 1:51:04 Actually, it is interesting, because one of the things that you said was sacred ground, and I do not consider— for me, It is not sacred ground. This is like home. And when I go there, and I have done this before, I have talked to my boys. I go to the area on the wall where I know my guys are, and I just talked to them. And I am glad that those memorials are there because that wall really shows what war is. Not just a guy on a horse, you know, with a sword. It is individual people. And it has been a meeting place of healing for Vietnam vets, where they can come, meet each other. They may never have known each other before, but because they are Vietnam vets, they communicate and it is a healing process. The same with the Women's Memorial. And the memorial next to the statue of the three guys, which is, you know, the memorial remembering all those who died because of the war. SM: 1:52:22 Yes-yes. They just redid that one. EM: 1:52:25 Yeah. That, to me is most important. Because there were so many who died because of that war. From Agent Orange or suicide or whatever it might be. SM: 1:52:40 Yeah, when I when I see that whole area there, I think of that word, context. Context being defined as a word that means everybody's feelings, thoughts, reflections, memories, matter. So that— what you are telling me today, the feelings that I have as a non-veteran, but who is a big supporter of veterans And what, you know, whether a person's anti-war supported the war, or, you know, I have spoken to a lot of conservatives, as well as liberals and the conservatives are, you are really asking us to be involved in this, you know? Yes, I am. It is the— it is context about— everybody's views matter. If you want to understand this very complex, decade or decade and a half from— I consider from 1960 to 1976, when we have celebrated our 200th anniversary, and of course, Jimmy Carter comes in as president, but it is that whole era. And there is so much. So, are there any other— I am done with questions. Are there any other questions you thought I might ask you or any final thoughts you want to add to the conversation? EM: 1:54:03 I do not think so. Whatever things you— when you mentioned the statue of the three guys what I remember was, when Diane and I had first went up and— we were together and we went up to the statue of those three guys, and I said to Diane, okay, when you look at the statue, what do you think first? She looked at and she said, those guys have great veins, for starting an IV. I said they do! That is the first thing I looked at, the veins on there, wow. That would be easy! SM: 1:54:37 Wow. EM: 1:54:41 We do things a little differently. SM: 1:54:44 Yeah, well, you know, just recently, you know, Ross Perot passed away and of course, he was a big critic of the wall. And originally, he was going to give a lot—give a lot of money. I think, I heard $171,000. he was going to give to Jim Scruggs and the people involved. But then when he saw the design of the— by Maya Lin, he wanted to take the money back. I do not know, I do not think he eventually did, but no matter what, whether it be the Vietnam Memorial, the— even the three man statue and the Woman's Memorial, the battles to have them even there is another story! It is another war! In respect, the war to get them— Yeah, so, anyways… EM: 1:55:26 But you know I actually tell you, looking at those three guys, one of the works of art that has meant the most to me, I found in South Dakota when I went through that. And it was a print made by a Vietnam vet out in Washington State. And it was the heads of three young guys, they had these helmets on, they looked like they just came out of the bush. And each face has the 1000-yard stare. But they also their faces have these splinters, you know, like a fractured piece of glass. With just cracks little teeny-teeny grips, but they are all cracked differently. Each face is cracked in a different place. And at the bottom, a dog tag that says PTSD. SM: 1:56:24 Wow. That is a drawing? EM: 1:56:27 And I gave— It is a- it is a— I can send it to you, if you have— SM: 1:56:32 Yeah, if you could send it on my— I am not here, I am up in Binghamton, I will not be able to get to it until I get home. But you have my email. I will give it— [inaudible]. EM: 1:56:42 I could use your phone number too; I could just take a picture and— SM: 1:56:44 Yes, that would be fine. Yep. EM: 1:56:49 Okay. But that to me was—said it all. And I gave it to my psychiatrist, one of the— I had a couple of friends. And I gave one to my psychiatrist. And he is no longer my psychiatrist, I have a female now, but he said— I saw him in the hall the other day. And he said, that is the first thing the guys noticed when they come in. And they said that is it. SM: 1:57:08 Wow. Yeah, I got to see that for sure. All right. Well, Edie, thank you very much. We almost did two hours here on what we are going to do is I will—Binghamton University will send you the tape to your email. EM: 1:57:24 Oh, great. Okay. SM: 1:57:25 It will be— I do not know how one is— how long it is going to take, but it will be a digital recording. And then you can watch it and then finally approve it so can be used for research and scholarship with all the other interviews here at Binghamton. EM: 1:57:39 Okay, great. Perfect. SM: 1:57:41 Well thank you very much, Edie, you have a great day, and I will be seeing you. Are you going to be out there at Veterans Day. EM: 1:57:46 No, I was there for Memorial Day. So that is it for me this year. SM: 1:57:50 All right. Well, I will see you next Memorial Day. EM: 1:57:52 Okay, saints alive! SM: 1:57:54 We will be in touch before then you take care! Thank you! EM: 1:57:57 Okay, you too! SM: 1:57:58 Bye! (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Edie Meeks https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a53ebc63c63da3c3a48639efe53f80cb.jpg 4407016ead7306ec9d7fc7d3ddf7a4b7 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/083a666d1fff15ba1035879e502bb78f.MP3 ff8b92d706b09a5ad41ab684f350b8c5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 8/7/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Sinclair Biographical Text John Sinclair is a poet, writer, and political activist. He was born in Flint, Michigan. Sinclair later became the manager of rock band MC5 in the late 1960s and was a founding member of the White Panther Party, a far-left, anti-racist political collective. He earned his Bachelor's degree in American literature from the University of Michigan and completed coursework toward a Master's degree in American Literature at Wayne State University. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:28:05 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords John Sinclair; 1960's; 1970's; MC5; John Lennon; The Beats; Beatnik; Beatles; Yippie; Hippie; Paul Krassner; Jerry Rubin; Allen Ginsberg; Hash Bash; (Davison; MI); White Panther Party; COINTELPRO; Bill Kunstler; Hugh M. Davis Jr.; Damon Keith; Abbie Hoffman; Festival of Light; Bobby Seale; Huey Newton; Rainbow People’s Party; Robert Martian; Hauldeman-Ehrlichman; Rennie Davis; Jack Kerouac; Eldridge Cleaver; John Kerry; Marijuana Movement; Michael Moore; SDS; FBI; CIA; J. Edgar Hoover; Ed Sanders; Leonard Weinglass; FISA; Justice Rehnquist; Nixon. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: John Sinclair Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Carrie Blabac-Myers Date of interview: 7 August 2019 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 SM: All right, we are on. 0:04 JS: Good 0:05 SM: Well, first off ̶ 0:06 JS: Now can I ask you this? Can you give me an mp3 file of this when it is done? 0:11 SM: Oh, yes. 0:12 JS: Okay, great. 0:12 SM: Yeah. It has, it has to be it has to be sent from the university. Not me, the university. 0:17 JS: I do not care who sends it, I just want to get it. 0:19 SM: Yep. You will get it. 0:21 JS: For my records. 0:22 SM: Yeah, all my interviews and everything has to be approved first before they ever can be used for research and scholarship. 0:29 JS: [laughs] 0:31 SM: Okay, my first question. 0:32 JS: Well, I do not have that problem. 0:34 SM: [laughs] Okay. 0:36 JS: I am just a citizen. 0:37 SM: Yeah, my first question is when you think of the 1960s and early 1970s what is the first thing that comes to your mind? 0:46 JS: A big smile. 0:48 SM: [laughs] Is there anything beyond that smile? 0:56 JS: Well, I was just thinking about what a great time it was. 1:00 SM: Is there any particular event that stands out to you during this whole (19)60s early (19)70s that, were you were not involved that, you know, think it was an amazing event and also an event where you were involved? 1:22 JS: Oh, I do not know. It was daily life for me since from about (19)64 until I do not know, (19)80 some time. [laughs] It was a succession of events day after day. A way of life. It was not just events you know what I mean? It was not no Woodstock or nothing like that. 1:47 SM: Right. 1:48 JS: Daily life with people. Taking LSD. You know. Fighting the government. Trying to end the war in Vietnam. Putting on free concerts, all that kind of stuff. 2:00 SM: When do you take when to take your first drug? 2:04 JS: My first what? 2:05 SM: When did you take marijuana or any drug? When was the first time you ever took it? 2:13 JS: Well you know, marijuana is not a drug. That is a misconception. Marijuana is a medicine. 2:21 MS: Right. 2:24 JS: I started smoking marijuana by 1962, early in 1962. But before that I took sleeping pills. I drank cough syrup. I drank beer, wine, whiskey, rum. [laughs] 2:38 MS: What was your ̶ You grew up in Flint. What was it like growing up? 2:42 JS: I grew up in Davison, Michigan, outside of Flint, a little country town. 2:46 SM: Yeah. What was it like growing up for you? 2:51 JS: Well, it was like the movies of American life in the (19)50s in a small town of all white people. 2:59 SM: Did you go to a big high school? 3:01 JS: No, I went all thirteen years in the same building. 3:04 SM: Oh my gosh. 3:06 JS: I grew up in a small town Davison. 3:12 SM: I can tell you are a jazz. 3:20 JS: ̶ There was not anything in the town, it was an escape from the town, you know. 4:06 SM: Right. 4:06 JS: Mentally I could escape by listening to Ray Charles and Big Joe Turner. You know. 4:12 SM: Yeah well, Ray Charles is one of the one of the really good ones. 4:17 JS: Yeah. 4:17 SM: Do you? 4:18 JS: Well, I got into him right at the time that he switched to Atlantic records in 1952. I was eleven. So I remember his records on Atlantic, you know. 4:27 SM: Were you also if you were interested in the blues, were you also interested in jazz? 4:32 JS: Not until I got out of high school. 4:35 SM: Yeah, Coltrane and Miles. 4:37 JS: When I went to college, I got turned on to jazz. 4:40 SM: Yeah. 4:41 JS: And then I became a jazz fanatic. Then I became, in the mid – (19)60s I was an avant garde jazz fanatic: John Coltrane, Cecil Taylor, Sun Ra, Archie Shepp, Pharoh Sanders, you know. 4:57 SM: Will you ever into the group Weather Report? 5:01 JS: No, they were a little tame for me. 5:03 SM: [laughs] Well, um, when you look at the rock scene, obviously, you know, this is the era where music played a very important role in the (19)60s and (19)70s in the lives of both young people and all people in fact, were there any rock groups that stood out during that timeframe for you? 5:22 JS: Oh, sure. Of course. 5:27 SM: Any particular ones? 5:29 JS: You ever hear of the Beatles? 5:30 SM: Uh, I think I have. 5:31 JS: The Rolling Stones? The Who? 5:34 SM: Right. 5:36 JS: Let us start with them. 5:40 SM: Yeah. 5:41 JS: I was the manager of a group called the MC5. I was associated with scores of groups in Detroit, and later around the country. So yeah, I was aware of all of them. 5:54 SM: I have questions that I was going to ask later on about MC5, but maybe I will ask him right now because that was in the mid – (19)60s that you became their manager? 6:02 JS: Correct (19)67. Yeah, quite a few people that I know were MC5 fans. They were very wise. 6:11 SM: Well, they were MC5 fans [inaudible] quite a few people I know at Kent State were MC5 fans. They were music that was kind of, if I can remember correctly, that the Yippies really liked? 6:24 JS: Well, yeah, we were Yippies. 6:26 SM: Yeah. What was it like to be a Yippie? And for people? 6:30 JS: ̶ It was great! 6:30 SM: For those who may not grew, who may not know what Yippie is, what is a Yippie? 6:33 JS: A Yippie is a member of the Youth International Party or their followers that were not members. They did not really have a membership. They did not even have an office it was an idea promulgated by a recently departed Paul Krassner. 6:51 SM: Oh, yes. 6:52 JS: Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman and Ed Sanders and other guys. 6:57 SM: Yeah they were. 6:59 JS: ̶ That I knew. 7:00 SM: Yeah, Jerry came to Ohio State when I was there and gave one heck of a speech. 7:04 JS: I will bet he did. That was his forte. 7:08 SM: I remember that was 1971 and he was wearing that bandana with all those paintings on his face. 7:14 JS: Yep, yep. That was his peak right there. 7:17 SM: Yeah, well the crowd was unbelievable. 7:18 JS: That was when he got John Lennon to help me get out of prison. 7:23 SM: That whole thing about the event that took place in 1971. Correct me if I am wrong, you came to national fame because people got to know you through that song 'John Sinclair' is that correct? 7:37 JS: No. 7:38 SM: No? How did you become famous? 7:42 JS: Well, they gave me ten years for two joints. No appeal bond. I was fighting the marijuana laws and in 1972 I overturned the marijuana laws in the state of Michigan. Just before that song time came out. 7:58 SM: And I know that so many people were upset about the penalty that was given to you for simply selling two cigarettes to an undercover 8:06 JS: ̶ No, no, I sold nothing. I gave a police woman two cigarettes because she asked me for one. 8:12 SM: Right. And then of course they had that concert. 8:16 JS: There was no sale. 8:19 SM: The rock musicians did this concert and I could not believe how many big names were there! 8:26 JS: [digital music plays in the background] Well it was a culmination of two and a half years of concerts by everybody that we knew; everybody that supported me and we culminated it in this and Jerry Rubin convinced John Lennon and Yoko Ono to attend, and that took it over the top. 8:47 SM: When you heard that song for the first time that you were in prison, when you heard it, were you surprised? 8:55 JS: Surprised. 8:56 SM: Were you surprised that John had not written a song about you? 8:59 JS: Oh, of course, sure. 9:00 SM: It was an unbelievable thing. 9:02 JS: I did not know him. 9:05 SM: Yeah, well I can remember hearing that song on the radio when I was a kid. 9:10 JS: I had already been released by then, by the time the song was released. What did it was when he came to Ann Arbor in the flesh and appeared at our rally. That was three months before the record came out. 9:17 SM: Okay. 9:17 JS: He sang the song there. He had just written it. 9:33 SM: You have been a poet, you have been a poet for a long time. You started out as a poet. 9:37 JS: Long time. 9:40 SM: How would someone say who maybe knows you real well describe your poetry? 9:47 JS: Oh I have no idea. 9:49 SM: How would you describe it? 9:50 JS: Describing my poetry is; no it is not something I; that describes itself. You read the poem, there it is, you know. It is what it is. I do not know, it is not about something, it is what it is, you know, I am a poet. 10:09 SM: Now, do you? I notice that you connected the music with the poetry? So you were the spoken word? 10:17 JS: That is just a marketing term you know. Poetry is poetry you know. Then they have this other genre where you can say anything and they have poetry slams, but none of those really have anything to do with poetry per se. 10:35 SM: When did you start being a poet? Did you write in high school? 10:38 JS: In 1962. 10:39 SM: Wow. 10:43 JS: And I got to be fairly good by (19)64. 10:48 SM: Now, I know that you had mentioned that Allen Ginsberg and Ed Sanders were at that one concert but you had been with him before. 10:59 JS: They were my mentors, I followed them. 11:02 SM: Wow. They were; when, Alan Ginsberg came to Ohio State, he filled two ballrooms at one time. 11:12 JS: That is good. 11:13 SM: And he never opened his mouth. He just did a chant. You know. 11:17 JS: Oh dear. That was the least favorite part to me I liked his poetry and his recitations. 11:24 SM: But it was, it was what they called a 'happening' back then, and you know that word. I have some specific questions on the (19)60s and (19)70s. In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin? 11:40 JS: January 1, 1960. 11:43 SM: Okay. When did it end? 11:49 JS: December 31, 1969. When the (19)70s started. 11:56 SM: How do you feel about people that say the early (19)70s are part of the (19)60s? 12:01 JS: Oh, I do not care what they say. 12:02 SM: Yeah. A lot of people say that, and I mean, I have interviewed so many people. 12:08 JS: What they talk about the (19)60s, does not include the first part of the (19)60s either. They are talking about (19)68 to (19)75 or something like that. When white people discovered what was hippies, is what was going on. Really 19(69) Woodstock, really started in (19)69 what they think of it see because before that, they were all squares. Hippies was a small community of people regarded as outcasts. Hated by squares. 12:45 SM: I know that the ̶ we interviewed a person who mentioned that he thought the (19)60s was divided into two parts. Part one was 1960 to 1963 when Kennedy was shot and then (19)60s and then after that (19)64 to (19)70 when all hell broke loose. How do you like that commentary? Do you agree with that? 13:09 JS: No, I see at all as a continuity. 13:16 SM: Also, the Beats played a very important role here. And I like the thought on the Beats because this is just it is way beyond just having Allen Ginsberg and Ed Sanders. You know they were different. And they were the first one that really kind of challenged the system in many ways with their writings. They were ahead of their time. Some people, some people think that the (19)60s really began with the Beats in the (19)50s. Your thoughts on that? 13:43 JS: Well I do not know you are using the (19)60s as a metaphor for a period of social change. That really has a different set of numbers, so it is kind of confusing. You are talking about the social revolution that took place in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. 14:03 SM: Yes. And all the movements. 14:04 JS: That is not the (19)60s though. The (19)60s was ten years, you know, it was a decade. [laughs] 14:12 SM: Well, that is important, when I interview people, they have different opinions on everything in terms of the (19)60s and even on the Boomer generation. The one thing, and your thoughts on the issue of spirit when we talk about the boomer generation; which is originally when I was going to be writing a book on. 14:30 JS: The what? 14:31 SM: The Boomer generation that were born between 1946 and (19)64. 14:36 JS: Oh Boomer. Okay, yeah. 14:38 SM: I got corrected a many times by people by saying, it is not about age, it is about spirit. It's about the spirit of the time, I think was Richie Havens that told me that, "I am born in 1941 Steve and I am the (19)60s. I am the spirit of the (19)60s", because it was a period of time where there was a scary ̶ 14:57 JS: Well, we were the ones who did the things that were different. Yeah, yeah, I was born in (19)41. Sanders was born in (19)38 you know, we were the ones who did the things that were different. 15:09 SM: Right. 15:10 JS: People our age. 15:13 SM: When you hear that you know ̶ 15:15 JS: We were inspired by the beatniks and by black people. 15:21 SM: Could you explain a little more detail what you are saying there in terms of, because the people that will be listening to these who are going to be doing research and scholarship on this period. When you say that 'the beatniks' and people of color; black people were the inspiration. Could you go into a little more detail? 15:43 JS: Well, yeah, what do you want? 15:46 SM: How? Well how they inspired. How they inspired the spirit overall of that period. 15:53 JS: Well, by their example. By the way they lived, by the things that they created, their art, their ideas. 16:02 SM: Can you ever see a period of time? If the music was not there would there have been the (19)60s? 16:09 JS: I am sorry? 16:10 SM: If there had been (none) of the music that we all know happened in the (19)60s and (19)70s, would there have been a (19)60s? 16:19 JS: I do not know. [laughs] I do not know how you do these things! How you are going to separate these things? And why? Why do not we talk about what happened? I am not interested in speculating. I am interested in what happened. What is going to happen next? 16:37 SM: Yeah. What? When you look at this, when you look at this period, this ten years from 1960 to (19)70, what did happen in your in your view that made it so different than other decades? 16:55 JS: [laughs] Well, I saw the same thing that everyone else did. I do not know what you are you trying to get out of me? These are kind of big questions. 17:06 SM: Well, just based from your experiences, the things that you know, how you became who you are, and how you became the activist that you were, the poet that you were, the musician. 17:16 JS: I followed the example of the beatniks and I intermingled with black people and I studied their culture. This is what shaped my personality. Now, I got to write that practice you know? I listen to a lot of records. Thousands. 17:41 SM: One of the musicians that always fascinates me is Marvin Gaye. And particularly when he made the changeover in the late on that 1971 period when he did the album, What's Going On. 17:55 JS: Correct. 17:55 SM: And I thought it was his greatest work. But he got heavily criticized for it because I think because they were saying it was not the typical Marvin Gaye music and that seemed to be, I mean, a major happening in the early (19)70s in the music world. 18:14 JS: It was. 18:15 SM: I mean, I played it over and over again. It is that kind of music with messages. 18:18 JS: Also, Stevie Wonder do not leave him out, talk about brilliance. They were twin towers of creativity. 18:27 SM: Right. Look at the people. 18:30 JS: Then the Rolling Stones took Stevie Wonder on tour with them and introduced him to white people and then he became bigger. They also did that with Ike and Tina Turner and with B.B. King. 18:45 SM: What would your thoughts on the whole, the lawsuit or the ̶ that particular one in Ann Arbor, with the marijuana what the whole lawsuit that you won? Or Leonard Weinglass was your lawyer and it was case. 19:05 JS: That was a real specific case. That was a federal case of conspiracy. I was charged with conspiring to blow up a CIA office in Ann Arbor. 19:17 SM: And you won that case? 19:20 JS: Well, yeah, because the government said that they were wiretapping and they had, the defendants were captured on wiretaps but they could not say who the wiretap was on because it was a matter of national security. And then it came out that they were tapping national security targets without a wire warrant, and we challenged that in court with Weinglass, Bill Kunstler and the great Hugh M. Davis Jr. of Detroit. 19:57 SM: That is a major case because that whole period of the (19)60s with all these illegal things happening with COINTELPRO and all those activists organizations, I know when I was in college, they were spying on our campus. 20:10 JS: They were spying on all campuses and they were not supposed to have anybody active in United States. I did not happen to conspire to blow up this office but I know the people who did and I know why they did it to call attention to the fact that the CIA had an office that was recruiting on the campus of the University of Michigan. In violation of international and national law. 20:35 SM: So that is an historic case. 20:37 JS: So we unearthed them. Yeah well, the historic part was that we won in the Supreme Court. See, we had a judge in Detroit who just died, Damon Keith, a great jurist. It was in the eastern district of Michigan and he awarded in our favor that there was no such thing as a warrantless wiretap and that the government, he ordered the government to divulge the information on the wiretaps and they said, "We cannot divulge it because then we would have to say who it was on and blah, blah, blah, and it fits with our strategy." And they said, "Well, you have got to reveal it or drop the case." And so he freed us from the charge, and then the government appealed the judge's ruling. So my case went to the US Supreme Court, as US versus US District Court, eastern district of Michigan and that was adjudicated in the Supreme Court, eight to nothing in our favor and Nixon was repudiated. As a result of that this group, this organization, government organization, called FISA was created which came up again in the Bush era because he was defying them. You remember that? 21:25 SM: Yes, I do. 21:57 JS: Well FISA was established as a result of our case. Because they wanted to get a wiretap that nobody else knew about they had to go to the FISA court. They could not just bop one on somebody. You know what I am saying? 22:15 SM: Yep. 22:18 JS: That was a lasting result of that. And they say we had something to do with Watergate. Because you know because Watergate was about removing their wiretaps. 22:32 SM: Right. 22:33 JS: My case was decided on a Friday afternoon in the Supreme Court. Justice Rehnquist had just been appointed from the Nixon so-called Justice Department to the Supreme Court. He had recused himself from the case because he had been one of the architects of the warrantless wiretap. 22:53 SM: Oh my God. 22:54 JS: Well they presume that (they decided my case on Friday, but they did not announce it until Monday) and they presume that Justice Rehnquist called the Nixon-Mitchell office and told them that they had lost in the Supreme Court eight to nothing, and that if they had any wiretaps, they'd better get them out by Monday so they could say that they did not have any. 23:21 SM: Wow. 23:21 JS: And that was the Saturday of the Watergate break in. 23:24 SM: Unbelievable! Well that is historic. [laughs] Crazy, huh? Yeah, that is historic! 23:30 JS: Yeah. That is what they say. There is no way to know. But that is what they say. 23:35 SM: Yeah. Were you in the courtroom when, when they were doing their legal arguing? Weinglass? 23:43 JS: Yeah I was there in the Supreme Court. Yes. That was a thrill. And the great Bill Bender argued our case. The nation's leading constitutional, leftwing constitutional scholar. He argued our case. Another great part of it was that the Solicitor General of the United States Erwin Griswold refused to argue Nixon's case because it was so full of shit. [laughs] 24:14 SM: Everything Nixon did was that way mostly. [laughs] 24:17 JS: So in the Supreme Court it ended up that this, one of those, um, criminals from Arizona, I think it was Robert Martian. One of those guys. Part of that Hauldeman-Ehrlichman axis. They had to argue the case and they were [inaudible] the Supreme Court ripped him to shreds. 24:25 SM: Oh my god. Wow. 24:39 JS: Yeah, I was so thrilled. [laughs] 24:43 SM: Well, that particular event where they all came together; the activists and the musicians and so forth. I mean you had, you know, Rennie Davis was there. 24:52 JS: Well, that was what we did see, we were they White Panther Party. We had the MC5. We were associated with the Stooges and really fifty other bands in Detroit and Ann Arbor. 25:06 SM: Wow. 25:07 JS: This is what we did. 25:08 SM: Now this is where I would like you to give a little more detail because I, the MC5, I have some people at Kent State, some former students there who were big MC5 fans, could you talk about MC5 and their influence? The years that you had them as their manager and just talk about all these bands you are talking about in Detroit? Your life is fascinating. 25:32 JS: Ha! 25:32 MS: No! It is. I mean, it is! You know, all the different categories from being a poet, a musician, a writer. Radio, having your own radio shows, a manager of a rock band, you write! And what you did with the underground newspapers. I mean, your life is amazing. 25:54 JS: Well thanks. I was inspired by Allen Ginsburg, Jack Kerouac, Ed Sanders, Amir Braka. 26:02 SM: He cannot get any better than that. Because they are the Beats. 26:05 JS: That is where I come from. 26:07 SM: Yeah, we grew up on that. 26:08 JS: And then I took a lot of LSD. 26:11 SM: Yeah. How many trips did you have? 26:15 JS: I could not tell you that. 26:18 SM: Did you write your best poetry when you were on a trip or did just, you did not want to be on any kind of medicine at all when you when you wrote your poetry? 26:29 JS: I just take as it comes. 26:32 SM; But what? Now how did the MC5 come together? 26:39 JS: Well, they went to high school together in Lincoln Park, Michigan. 26:44 SM: And how did you become their manager? 26:48 JS: Well, I heard the band and I thought they were great and I became a huge fan and I saw them every time they played for a year, and then I became their manager. They needed someone to help them. 27:01 SM: Right. And the band was often categorized so that they were involved in issues caring about certain issues. They were more of a ̶ and they performed I believe in Chicago. 27:15 JS: Right. 27:16 SM: And just before that they went crazy there in the park. Describe that scene. 27:26 JS: Well, they played and then the police attacked the people in the park and we fled. 27:32 SM: I think I think that is when Rennie Davis gotten beaten over the head, I think. I know he said he was there. 27:38 JS: Well, Rennie Davis was in another part. See they also had the Democratic Convention. And that was father downtown than the park, you know. We were in Lincoln Park with the Yippies created this thing called the Festival of Life as an alternative to the Democratic Convention. We had the music and the poetry and the acid. The other people were conflicting with the Democratic Party and the Chicago police regularly for a week or so. 28:16 SM: Could you talk a little more detail about the festival? 28:18 JS: That was led by the SDS and by the mobilization against the war in Vietnam. We were led by the Yippies. 28:29 SM: Could you, in your own words describe a little bit more about the Festival of Life when we talk about the (19)68 Democratic Convention we all hear about the SDS and that group, the activist groups, and we know that Andy Hoffman was there and that there were some Yippies there but we do not really see the breakdown. 28:48 JS: No, no, no, we were not part of the protest at the convention we had our own event. 28:52 SM: Right. I know. But I do not think it is discussed that much. They always just talk about the 28:57 JS: Well, that is not our fault. I kind of discuss it now. 29:02 SM: Could you do it? Could you talk a little bit more about the Festival of Life? 29:08 JS: Yeah, it was a Yippie event created by Ed Sanders, Paul Krassner, Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin and others. I was in on the planning of that as well. It was, the idea was to put on a free concert in the park in Chicago in protest against the Democratic Party and not just the Democratic Party but what we called the 'death culture.' See the Democratic Party was carrying on the war in Vietnam. Full force at that time, full force. Now Lyndon Johnson had stepped down because he did not feel he would get reelected because he had [inaudible] this war so fiercely, which was true. And so Humphrey was running and he had been Vice President so he was just as bad. So we want anything to do with the Democrats. So we put on our own event because our whole outlook was alternative, alternative to the death culture. Then we were going to have this political conversation? We were going to have a free concert. All the bands in the hippie nation were supposed to play. The Jefferson Airplane, The Grateful Dead, they all got scared when they saw the people getting beat up by the police. So none of them came except for the MC5 we came from Detroit by car; and we played. We were determined to play. Fuck the police. 30:46 SM: How long did the MC5? Are they still performing? Or are they kind of broken up? 30:55 JS: They broke up in 1972, yep. I thought you were writing about the (19)60s. You do not know about the MC5? 31:03 SM: Yeah, I know, I got it right here. 31:05 JS: They were the greatest band of the (19)60s. [laughs] 31:09 SM: But I did not know that they had all dispersed and gone separate ways. 31:13 JS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need to read the book that Wayne Kramer recently published called The Hard Stuff. Then you should talk to Wayne Kramer, the lead guitarist in the MC5. 31:33 SM: The White Panther Party was formed because it was the Black Panthers had asked you to be a counter another support group for their cause correct me? 31:48 JS: No, no, no. No they put out a; white people were asking what they could do to further the cause of the Black Panther Party and Bobby Seale and Huey Newton said you should start a White Panther Party. So we did that. We responded to that. We thought that was a good idea. 32:08 SM: Did you have a lot? 32:09 JS: They said, our real problem is the white people. So somebody else needs to have a radical party to organize white people in our support. And in support of socialism. Because first of all, the Black Panther Party was a democratic socialist organization. 32:28 SM: Again, the White Panther Party existed from (19)68 to (19)80? 32:32 JS: (19)80? I do not know anything about that. 32:38 SM: I thought the length of time that the party was together was for twelve years. The Black, I mean, I am not talking about Black Panthers; the white, the White Panther Party was to kind of 32:49 JS: No, we changed it to the Rainbow People's Party in 1971. So for us, it went from (19)68 to (19)71. Some other people in San Francisco kept a White Panther Party, but it was not us. 33:07 SM: Now you were um, you lived in the United States, and then you moved to Amsterdam, as well, you have; 33:14 JS: Oh, you are jumping ahead quite a bit, yeah. 33:16 SM: I am going all over the place. Yeah. I have got so much here on your life. But I wanted to talk about that because I think it is when I think of Amsterdam, I think of jazz. 33:29 JS: Jazz? 33:30 SM: Yeah. A lot of jazz musicians go to Amsterdam. It is a very creative city. It is a very progressive city. 33:36 JS: Yeah. But not music or art. What progressive is that they keep your hands off of you. But their art is terrible and so is there music. 33:48 SM: Yeah, I know jazz musicians like Amsterdam because they feel like 33:52 JS: Well, they like to hear them play so they got gigs there you know? 33:55 SM: Right. 33:56 JS: And it is a great place to live, but not so many live there. Many more live in Paris or Copenhagen. 34:04 SM: You were involved in working with underground newspapers too. 34:09 JS: Correct. 34:09 SM: I am reading a book right now on the history of the underground newspapers. 34:13 JS: Oh wow. 34:14 SM: And their impact on the on the Vietnam War and a lot of other causes but particularly the Vietnam War. 34:24 JS: Do they have anything about the [inaudible]? 34:26 SM: I have only, it was a book written in 1993. It cost me fifty dollars I am just start starting to read it. And Tony Auth the cartoonist for the piece, the late cartoonist from the Philadelphia Inquirer is in it quite a bit too, because he did a lot of underground. 34:45 JS: Who was that? 34:45 SM: Tony Auth. 34:48 JS: I do not know him. 34:49 SM: Yeah, he was in the Philadelphia Inquirer for many years be came from Los Angeles. 34:52 JS: Oh, oh. No wonder. 34:53 SM: But he talked a lot about it, but you worked with the underground newspapers and you have been involved with them. 35:01 JS: How you contribute is, you did not get paid. It was not like working for them. 35:06 SM: They are important. 35:07 JS: Yeah, I know, but the important part was that people did it because they felt this information should be disseminated, not because they were getting paid. And they were not owned by anybody they were collectively owned. It is a beautiful thing. 35:28 SM: Well. 35:29 JS: Totally the opposite of the journalism that they have now. 35:32 SM: Exactly. I remember being in three different universities and I got my news from them. 35:38 JS: Right. 35:39 SM: And I still got a lot of them that I kept and never threw them away. 35:42 JS: Right. And you will not find one today. Will you? 35:45 SM: No, I go on the campus today and I do not see anything. But in terms of their influence during that period of time, we are talking about the (19)60s and (19)70s when so much was happening. They were vital, were not they? To me they were vital. 35:58 JS: Vital. Rock and roll, underground newspapers and underground radio. You know then, we did not have no internet. 36:09 SM: That is right. 36:11 JS: You know and to communicate you had to write up something, type it on a mimeograph, run it up on the mimeograph, fold them up, buy the envelopes, buy the stamps. Put them in envelopes, write the address, send them and three days later they get the message. So that was the [inaudible] in which you operated. So the underground paper, they came out every week, right? Or every other week at worst. That is the way that you found out what was going on. 36:43 SM: I got to interview Vietnam vets who said that were in their basic training, they found out a lot about the Vietnam War through reading underground newspapers. 36:54 JS: Yeah, because the army was not going to tell them. 36:56 SM: No. 36:58 JS: They were just cannon fodder to them. 37:01 SM: This is when they were doing their six weeks basic training. 37:03 JS: Underground papers had a great role in creating the resistance within the armed forces, which became a decisive factor. It really was marked most prominently by the great testimonial of John Kerry, a Naval lieutenant who said this is all horseshit. 37:28 SM: Right. Yeah. 37:30 JS: To me, that was a turning point. 37:33 SM: That was amazing. 37:34 JS: In ending the war. 37:36 SM: Well I interviewed Bobby Moeller, earlier today, and we were going into detail about that particular time that he went before the Foreign Relations Committee with Senator Fulbright. And that was historic and to add that some of the atrocities and then there was a book written I think, about 2003 by Mark Turce and it talks about the atrocities in Vietnam and it's just; that were hidden for many, many years by the government and then he was able to find them. So uh. 38:10 JS: Well the whole thing was an atrocity from beginning to end. You know, these are people that are farming rice in their paddies. They were not at war when nobody except for the dictators of South Vietnam who were backed by the US. They were not doing nothing to nobody. They never came here. We killed hundreds of thousands of people and then the bomb, you know, horrible, horrible. Every part of it was horrible. It was inhuman. 38:44 SM: Yeah. 38:45 JS: And they lied about it from beginning to end. 38:49 SM: Yeah. The whole (19)60s when you think about it. It went; to me, the watershed event was the Vietnam War and civil rights obviously is another one. 39:02 JS: Yeah, the twins. 39:03 SM: Yeah the twins and 39:04 JS: And then the Women's Movement came up. And then the Gay Movement. 39:08 SM: Right. That was in (19)69. 39:11 JS: Yeah. 39:12 SM: Yeah. It's like this whole, you know, you are involved in this period when all these groups are coming to, you know, the various causes they all we had the anti-war movement and of course, we know about the civil rights movement and with a women's movement and the gay and lesbian movement with the Chicano movement. I have been interviewing some Asian Americans who were a lot older, there was a movement in that particular group. We do not hear about too much. 39:41 JS: Yeah, they had the records expunged from when they locked him up in the concentration camps during World War II. 39:48 SM: Yes, yes, yes and you have got doctor Tekaki talking all about that and some of his books, and certainly the history of the Native Americans is another one. 40:00 JS: Yeah. 40:01 SM: This all kind of comes together in the (19)60s and in the, in the (19)70s, and you are involved in a lot! 40:08 JS: Well, you see, once they assassinated their own president, that kind of pulled covers; it started to pull the ̶ you know, that was the end of the illusion that this was all on the up and up. They killed, they assassinated the president! 40:26 SM: Yes. 40:26 JS: They did not like his policies, they got rid of them. You know, that was the beginning of the end. 40:32 SM: Did we ever have an Age of Innocence even before he was killed? 40:36 JS: Oh, I do not know what you mean by we ̶ 40:39 SM: America, this nation. 40:41 JS: There is no such thing. America, you know, there is black people. There's white people, there's rural people that do not, there's no such thing as that. It is all a myth. We just all live in the same piece of land. An Age of Innocence, you know they came over here and stole this country from the people that lived here and assassinated them in huge numbers and not only assassinated them but removed their way of life. Killed off the plants and the animals that they ate. That is the innocent White people. The poor white people. Rotten motherfuckers. 41:22 SM: The word that has been used a lot; we are that we are a very xenophobic nation. Afraid. 41:31 JS: I am not part of no 'we' like that. I am nothing like any of that. That is not my 'we'. I am a we with those who were born here. I am an American, but I do not subscribe to all of that horseshit. 41:47 SM: When you look at the term, the 'Yippies' and the 'hippies', and how the anti-war movement and we are all the people for that period, they kept talking about Theodore Roszack wrote that great book The Making of a Counterculture that was kind of required reading on college campuses in the early (19)70s. To you, what is the definition of a counterculture? 42:11 JS: That is never a term that I use. I thought that guy was totally full of shit. Roszak. 42:18 SM: Yeah. 42:19 JS: They made it required reading on campus so that they would all get the wrong idea. Course, the next idea they got on campus was that history was over. [laughs] So you see where they were trying to lead the young people in their educational facilities? 42:38 SM: Well, you know, we learn more about history by reading Howard Zinn, because Howard Zinn, because Howard Zinn had an alternative view. 42:43 JS: Exactly. Umberto Eco. [laughs] 42:50 SM: Yeah, you know, I actually had a chance to meet him. He was an interesting man. 42:56 JS: I will bet. He is a good writer! I like his novels. 43:01 SM: Well, his history was unbelievable too and so, one of the things here I wanted to: what, of all the movements you have been connected to the course, several movements in your own way but, what of all the movements that took place in the (19)60s and (19)70s how important was the anti-war movement in ending the war? There has been a lot of discussion of this in books and scholarly writing. 43:34 JS: Well, what do they say? The people who were waging the war did not end it. They kept it on as long as they possibly could. It was us that ended it. 43:46 SM: Oftentimes the criticism is the college students, the alternative view is that the college students did not end the war in Vietnam. Maybe the general protesters might have been but there was a lot of criticism of college students I do not know if you had that same feeling. 44:04 JS: What? I do not I do not care what anybody thinks okay the criticism these fucking idiots means nothing to me. There was what happened and then there was what did not happen or whatever they say, they are nuts! Plus, they got agendas of their own! They are capitalists. 44:24 SM: Why did we lose that war? In your opinion. 44:28 JS: We? I won! 44:31 SM: I am not going to say 'we' anymore. 44:32 JS: I was on the side of the Viet Cong! We won! Why did America lose it? Because they were on the wrong side. They were on the wrong side of history and they were on the wrong side in the war. They were wrong. They were evil, vicious, you know invaders. 44:59 SM: They certainly did not understand 45:00 JS: Bombers. 45:01 SM: They did not understand the culture they were going into ̶ 45:04 JS: Well, they understood well enough that it was different from ours and needed to be eradicated. They used the same shit they used on the Indians. They destroyed the villages and tried to destroy their livelihood. You know, they are just totally vicious. That is the way white people are, it is what they are all about. You know, yeah, the European Union now, I am a big fan of European Union, cause seven years ago, these people were bombing each other's cities. Well, now they got people rising up in all these countries that want to go back to that. They are a fucking idiots. 45:48 SM: I love your honesty. I love your honesty. 45:52 JS: That is all I got. 45:52 SM: Do that know that? I love that that I like about you and all the people I have been interviewing is I love hearing their points of view. Because they are all they are all valid. 46:03 JS: And you will not be hearing them on TV. [laughs] 46:08 SM: No you will not. You will not. Well, I want to get back to the event that happens every year that I believe we just came from, which is the Hash Bash. The Hash Bash. 46:21 JS: Hash Bash, first Saturday in April. Yeah. 46:24 SM: Now that has been happening since 1971? When did when it first start? 46:29 JS: First Hash Bash was (19)72. We had a gathering in (19)71 but it was to protest my imprisonment. In (19)72, I was already out. (19)72, see when my case, came to the Supreme Court and they overthrew the marijuana laws, they would passed a new one, but it did not take effect for three weeks between March 9th and March 31st in (19)72, they did not have a marijuana law in Michigan at all. So we took full advantage of that we make quite a bit of hay with that. And then we were going to put it back into effect on April Fool's Day, we thought the idea would be to have an event in the middle of the campus to stick our middle finger up and say fuck you we are not going to pay any more attention to the new law than we did to the old law because you are still wrong. There should not be any law. And now that is what we have now but it took place last year, fifty years later, you see. 46:46 SM: Wow. Fifty. And how many people come to the event every year? 47:38 JS: Thousands. 47:40 SM: And look, I am going to try to make it next year. What is the date is eight? What is it? 47:45 JS: First Saturday in April. 47:49 SM: It is in Ann Arbor? 47:51 JS: Yes. 47:52 SM: I have been trying to make it. 47:54 JS: Cannot miss it. 47:56 SM: I am going to be certainly at Kent State next year. You are going to Kent State for the fiftieth? 48:00 JS: No. 48:01 SM: I am trying to try to make that. 48:05 JS: [laughs] They will probably shoot some people in their celebration of the fiftieth. The Government, Trump, you know. 48:14 SM: Yeah, a lot of things strange things are certainly happening now. I, one of the questions I have here is what in all the events and again, this is just your personal feeling. What was the watershed event in the 1960s? I said Vietnam War, but what do you feel is the watershed event and I preface this by saying that many Vietnam vets I say six Vietnam veterans, some well-known some not, have stated that the, they felt they had to be involved in the Vietnam War because it was the watershed event of their youth. 48:19 JS: I do not know. I do not know I find it impossible to reduce anything to one thing. It was a huge movement. 49:06 SM: Mm hmm. When you think of the hippies, hippies and the Yippies, and the SDS 'ers, and the even the American, the conservative student groups and everything, it was quite, it was quite a time when there are a lot of different groups involved in certain kinds of protests. I do not see that today. I do not see it anywhere really. 49:32 JS: Oh, they protest today, I mean, the political moment is pretty similar to the way it was that then, they just do not have hippies anymore. But they have protests all the time. 49:45 SM: But they have protests, but they are more like singular protests. For example, the women's groups are all going to be there. I do not see a lot of other groups beyond the women's movement. That has been a criticism of the gay and lesbian movement, even Martin Duberman's written about it. That the one concern he sees with the gay and lesbian. 49:46 JS: Ok wait a minute, now we are going back on the criticism. What are they doing? The critics? What is they are answer to the fucking uh, oppression of females? Other than criticism of the, groups that are doing something? 50:19 SM: Yeah, I think the crucial; the criticism was the ̶ that they are doing it singular and not in a unity with a lot of other. 50:25 JS: But can we follow their lead? Who are these people with all of the answers? Why cannot I sign up with them? 50:35 SM: Good point. Instead of being, in other words instead of being a critic you do it. You be the example. 50:46 JS: Well, I have been the example for years and years but so what? Why do I have to think about a critic? Who has a job and plenty of money in the bank and a house and a car and they are going to tell me what I am doing wrong or what somebody I believe in is doing wrong. I do not care about them. Fuck them. You know what I am saying? Every point we talk about, you start telling me about what the critics would say. I do not care about them. 51:17 SM: Maybe because I am, I guess, I read too much. 51:22 JS: I do not know. 51:22 SM: There are from books. 51:24 JS: I am a constant reader, I read from day to night, every day. But I have not got the wrong ideas. [laughs] 51:31 SM: You know, talking about you know, what are your favorite books from the (19)60s and (19)70s? 51:37 JS: Oh. 51:37 SM: You did not you did not like Roszack because of the making of the counterculture, but that is one of the ̶ that was one of the biggest selling books that there was. 51:45 JS: Well, that was one of the reasons that I did not like it. What do I want with a best seller? 51:50 SM: There was a cultural narcissism no? 51:52 JS: Best seller just means that more idiots fell for it. [laughter] That is not a criterion of goodness to me. 52:01 SM: That book if you ever had a chance to try and sit down read it was pretty hard to understand to. 52:07 JS: Well, because he did not have any idea what he was talking about. It is like that guy who writes about music who thinks he is so great Greil Marcus. They are just making that shit up. They do not know anything. 52:20 SM: Yeah, he, he did make money off it though, I will say. 52:23 JS: Well good for him, but what is that do for me? 52:27 SM: Nothing. 52:28 JS: Thanks. 52:32 SM: Today when we are looking at now again, I want to get back to the Hash Bash because what, when you have the venues and you have the events there that are planned Who, who, who plans the Hash Bash on an annual basis number one, and how do they break it down? Is it musical groups is it you know, speakers, you know, what is the Hash Bash? 52:57 JS: They must have a website where you can go to and see this stuff. 53:04 SM: Is it over several days? 53:05 JS: I am just a founder, you know, I go on I read a poem, I give a poem and then that is it. So they have speeches, I do not listen any of them. 53:17 SM: And they covered what subjects basically? Anything? 53:21 JS: I do not listen to them! 53:23 SM: Ok. [laughs] 53:26 JS: Probably telling you about marijuana, legalizing marijuana. I started the legalize marijuana movement in Michigan. I do not get to listen to anybody. I know they got what they are talking about from me. [laughs] 53:26 SM: I know that there was a gentleman in San Francisco that was really involved in trying to get this passed as well. I am not sure if he is still alive. But how many states now are there that have legalized marijuana? 53:57 JS: Quite a few. 53:58 SM: Yeah. Do you think do you see? 53:59 JS: See, I mean, when you talk about no movement, today marijuana smokers are very well organized group of democratically oriented people who passed the law. They register, they put it on the ballot and they vote for it. Nobody else does that. We do it. We have been doing it. That is why its legal. 54:24 SM: Do you see that in maybe fifteen or twenty years from now that all fifty states will be in unison? 54:31 JS: I hope so. For their sake. 54:34 SM: Yeah, because I work part time in a pharmacy and I see how we have people that are sick that are taking marijuana from the pharmacy. So ̶ 54:45 JS: Oh yeah? You are you supplying it? 54:46 SM: No, we it has been okayed by the doctor. And so we have we have it in the protective area of the pharmacy. 54:54 JS: But you have it though? 54:55 SM: Yes, we have it. 54:56 JS: Yeah. You know in Amsterdam they have medical marijuana. You have to go to a pharmacy and tell them what you want and then they have to go buy it from a coffee shop [laughs] they do not have it on the premises. Yeah, I got it. I got some just to see what the protocol was. 55:16 SM: Yeah, well, we have it under lock and key. 55:18 JS: You had to wait three days. 55:20 SM: We have it under lock and key. 55:23 JS: I will bet. 55:26 SM: But I, you know, I some of the other things here I got so many things I wanted to ask here 55:32 JS: Better do it now. 55:34 SM: The divisions that we see in America today are so terrible. Obviously this President has accentuated it. But um 55:43 JS: Well its racism. This has always been a racist country. This guy just brings it out because that is what he is getting elected on. He is getting elected because he is a creep. He is a, he is a capitalist pig. And he is a racist dog and they like that. 56:01 SM: Amazing though that ̶ 56:02 JS: And they were really pissed off that they had a black president that they had to bow to for eight years. And they almost a woman! These are Americans man, these are the motherfuckers that fight in our wars. [laughs] 56:16 SM: John, is not it amazing though when you think of everything that you have lived through, I have lived through that we have just experienced in our lives, that we are still dealing with this. This kind of crap in the year two thousand nineteen. 56:30 JS: Well, they will be dealing with it until they get rid of racism. You see? 56:34 SM: Yeah. Racism is what America is built on, it is what it is all about. You know that had these people were slaves for them for three hundred years. Three hundred years is more years then the country is alive. That is right. 56:49 JS: And they never said they were sorry. They have never given them the reparations. They keep treating them like they are inferior citizens. They do not have education or jobs for them. What do they expect? Shit. These people go around shooting people, Jesus Christ! They show them all these movies of people killing people all the time. They sell them any fucking gun they want. What do they think is going to happen? Guy goes to a shopping mall and shoots his sister! 57:19 SM: When you see when you see the TV that we grew up with in the 1950s, which was all about westerns and cowboys killing. 57:27 JS: And the police, the police were 57:29 SM: Yes. 57:30 JS: Do not you remember Sergeant Friday? 57:31 SM: Yes, yes, yes. 57:33 JS: Yeah. 57:34 SM: We saw these things and you know shooting and killing and all the other stuff and you kind of wonder well, what kind of effect might that have? When I said Age of Innocence I was referring more to the (19)50s but that was not an Age of Innocence. They were still hanging people in America. They were you know. 57:50 JS: They just came back from a war where they were shooting people in the face you know. 57:54 SM: Right. Yeah. It is a ̶ it is kind of sad. We are still in those kind of situations. 58:02 JS: Well, that is what we call [inaudible] ̶ 58:06 SM: Of your many deeds and accomplishments what are you most proud of? 58:13 JS: Wow. Whole thing. I like it all. 58:24 SM: This is uh, you know, you, I am, you are very good at this because you are proud of who you are. You are proud of who you are. 58:33 JS: I am. What I have done and proud of what I have done. 58:36 SM: Yeah. 58:38 JS: Well, I am just another human being filled with faults and [laughs] wrong doing you know. 58:46 SM: You probably never thought when you were in high school that you would end up doing all this stuff in your life. Did you? You know. 58:52 JS: Well I did not know anything about anything till I read "On the Road." 58:55 SM: Right? Right. Oh, yeah, Jack Kerouac. Oh yeah, I read that book. That is an unbelievable book. 59:01 JS: Yeah. 59:02 SM: Classic. 59:03 JS: Well it opened up a bigger world for me. I grew up in a small town. 59:10 SM: Yeah. Well, I tell you, we had five beat writers on our campus when I worked at Westchester. 59:16 JS: Oh that is cool! 59:17 SM: And we had the female writers and, Ann Waldman came. 59:22 JS: Oh wow! That is a great writer! 59:23 SM: Yeah Leroy Jones' wife. 59:27 JS: Oh Hettie! 59:28 SM: Hettie. Yeah. I interviewed Hettie for the project. 59:31 JS: Oh good. 59:31 SM: So she was she was there. Who else? We Ed Sanders. Ed Sanders came though because he knew the English professor who wrote a lot about the Beats. So Ed came, and we had another one. Well, we had about five of them all together. I did meet Allen Ginsburg though at Ohio State. 59:50 JS: That is good! 59:50 SM: And he was just, he is a, what a giant he is. 59:55 JS: Yeah, he is a great American. 59:58 SM: Now if you look at the people from (19)60s and (19)70s period who did, who do you admire? And who do you totally despise? 1:00:10 JS: I admired thousands of people. John Coltrane. He was God to me. Who did I despise? Richard M. Nixon and his whole gang of thugs. 1:00:32 SM: Is there anybody that you kind of dislike and like? I, you know that combination that mixture; that now one day you just cannot stand the guy or gal, and the next day you support them? Was there anybody in that medium, middle ground? 1:00:51 JS: Yeah, I used to think Eldridge Cleaver was great and then I thought he was an idiot. 1:01:01 SM: Yeah, he changed. There is no question about that. "Soul on Ice". Some of the slogans from that era too. Which of the slogans that you remember more than any other from the (19)60s and (19)70s? 1:01:16 JS: I do not know. 1:01:18 SM: One of them is from a Yippie. Pardon? 1:01:25 SM: One of them is from a Yippie. A friend of yours. Jerry Rubin "do not trust anybody over thirty". 1:01:32 JS: Well, things like that, we were wrong about a lot of things so it is hard to have an emotional connection with our ideas of that time. Because so many of them were wrong. 1:01:42 SM: What is amazing is he was twenty-nine when he said it! [laughs] He was thirty before he knew it. And then of course um, there are other ones as well. Yeah. Some of the people again that came to your VIP event in 1971, the John Sinclair Freedom Rally is just amazing. I am looking at the list of some of the names here. I know Pete, Bob Seeger was there. 1:01:54 JS: He was trying to warn them. Yeah. 1:02:16 SM: Phil Ochs was there. 1:02:18 JS: He was a local band, Bob Seeger. 1:02:21 SM: Right. 1:02:22 JS: At that time. 1:02:22 SM: Yep. 1:02:23 JS: Until (19)75. 1:02:26 SM: And then Ginsberg and Sanders were there. 1:02:28 JS: Phil Ochs was Jerry Rubin's best friend. 1:02:31 SM: Right. And we lost. You are correct. We lost a really fantastic person a great person in Paul Krassner. 1:02:39 JS: Yeah. 1:02:40 SM: I interviewed Paul a long time ago. He gave me a lot of names 1:02:45 JS: I will bet he did! He knew everything. 1:02:47 SM: And but he he'd be funny and he'd be funny one minute and dead serious next. 1:02:52 JS: Yeah. Yep. 1:02:53 SM: And I did not know he was ill. I had not known the story. 1:02:57 JS: Well he was eighty-seven or something. Jesus Christ. You have the right to be ill then. 1:03:04 SM: He did a lot of a lot of good things and a lot of people will remember him and he was memorialized on my Facebook page. People that I did not even know knew him, admired him. People that had never met him, admired him. So he, it's a big loss for that period. What were some of the um, you know, this whole thing do we learn from people? Lessons of life. What were the lessons that we hopefully learned from the (19)60s so that we will not repeat them again? 1:03:41 JS: I do not know, again you are talking about that we that I am not really a part of. 1:03:49 SM: That could be you. It's your thoughts on 1:03:52 JS: Well, I did not have to give anybody a joint. 1:03:55 SM: [laughs] Yeah, that is right. 1:04:00 JS: That is what I learned. 1:04:01 SM: Because you could go to jail for it. 1:04:04 JS: Correct and I did go, to prison. 1:04:07 SM: And, and is not it, unbelievable? The number of books right now being talked about how many people are in prison for reasons that they should not even be in prison? 1:04:19 JS: Well, yeah, that is what America is all about, prisons. 1:04:23 SM: It is true. 1:04:24 JS: We got more prisoners than anybody on earth. 1:04:28 SM: Yeah. 1:04:28 JS: It is a lucrative business. 1:04:31 SM: I agree. And, and it's and again, I would hope that someday one of our leaders would take a look at this issue in more greater detail and get some of those people out of jail. I mean, they are people in jail for selling marijuana to a friend at a rock concert. I mean, come on. You know, so ̶ 1:04:56 JS: Who do you think you are talking to? 1:04:57 SM: I know. I am going to get into the Vietnam. The, some basic, general questions with not 'we', 'i' things that you think about. When the, what was your thought on the way Vietnam veterans are treated upon the return from the Vietnam War which was pretty bad. 1:05:20 JS: Well, they still treat them that way. I think it is outrageous. 1:05:24 SM: I agree. And they were dying in massive numbers compared to World War II vets they were dying faster than they died. 1:05:33 JS: Well, they had more sophisticated weaponry and chemical warfare that they were exposed to. 1:05:38 SM: Yup. Used to be just mustard gas. Right. And Agent Orange is a, is a killer. 1:05:48 JS: Do not, do not forget Napalm. Do not forget you know, they are soaking these people with fire in their villages. You know, I feel bad for the Vietnamese veterans the way they are treated but on the other hand I think they are despicable for what they did to the people in Vietnam. And I do not hear them saying they were sorry, very often is they are mostly whining about themselves. But you see if they would have stayed here, they would not have had those things happen to them that is basically my bottom line. 1:06:22 SM: Do you agree that 1:06:25 JS: I say we tried to tell you not to go. 1:06:28 SM: Yup. 1:06:28 JS: You insisted on going so you got what you deserved, I thought. 1:06:33 SM: Some got drafted though. 1:06:34 JS: I hate to say it like that, but that is the way I feel. 1:06:35 SM: Some got drafted and could not get out of the draft which is, you kind of empathize. 1:06:36 JS: Well then you did not have to go and choke the motherfuckers. 1:06:43 SM: Right. 1:06:43 JS: You should take your medicine. 1:06:48 SM: Do you think that uh, I personally have a feeling that the people that served in the war, that did not commit atrocities that is, are heroes by simply serving their nation but then I also believe the anti-war 1:07:07 JS: Oh, what was the? What did they contribute to our nation? By fighting in Vietnam? What did we get out of that? 1:07:17 SM: Well, they did not get anything out of it. 1:07:19 JS: What did we get the people they were defending? Did the Vietnamese come into our bedrooms and cut our throats at night? 1:07:26 SM: Yes, yes. Yes, that is what, that is what I am getting at. 1:07:28 JS: I do not think so. 1:07:30 SM: A lot of the anti-war movement was about not only trying to make sure we did not send men over there to die, but also to save the lives of the Vietnamese citizenry. 1:07:42 JS: Of course. 1:07:42 SM: And to be caring about them. 1:07:44 JS: Humanitarians! 1:07:45 SM: Yes and, and I do not think we do enough talking about that particular aspect of the war. That two to three million died in that war. Many most of them are innocent citizens. Because of the saturation bombing they took on the airplanes and everything else. 1:08:04 JS: Right. 1:08:05 SM: So it is. 1:08:07 JS: What I am talking about is because they are still doing it to people in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan. You know, that is what they do. Now, they do not put the people on the ground so much they just are in Colorado and they send these things to bomb these people's villages. They are even uglier today than before and we got two or three wars going on at any given time. And they are endless. They have been in Afghanistan longer than they were in Vietnam. 1:08:41 SM: Right. 1:08:43 JS: Fighting a religious war. 1:08:46 SM: Now, going to another area here. You are still writing newspaper columns correct? On cannabis? 1:08:52 JS: Well, I write a marijuana column for Michigan Marijuana Reporter monthly magazine. 1:08:58 SM: Yes. And how long have you been doing that? 1:09:05 JS: Well, next week it will be my one hundred and second column. 1:09:10 SM: Wow. And you have already brought up the fact of the, you know, the marijuana, the people, the movement and everything. How many people do you think are involved in that movement right, we are now nationwide? 1:09:29 JS: Oh I have no idea. 1:09:32 SM: But you have got a big following, a lot of people are involved in this issue. 1:09:37 JS: Well, a lot of people smoke weed. 1:09:38 SM: And I just go into the store Barnes and Noble and I see a lot of a lot of magazines dealing with cannabis. 1:09:48 JS: A lot of people smoke weed. They have been at war with this for eighty years. 1:09:56 SM: And when you hear that 1:09:59 JS: And we are winning. 1:09:59 SM: The old slogan sex rock, sex, drugs and rock and roll that was what some people, that was how they defined the (19)60s and early (19)70s. What do you say? 1:09:59 JS: That is a bowdlerization of our slogan. "Walkin' low, dope and fucking in the streets." 1:10:09 SM: [laughs] Oh, wow. 1:10:21 JS: That is the original. 1:10:22 SM: Oh, okay. Huh? 1:10:24 JS: I invented that. 1:10:26 SM: And they are banning that and they are using the sex drugs and rock 'n roll huh? 1:10:31 JS: They have been for years. 1:10:35 SM: Now, things that people are now, as someone; I do not have any of your books and I would like to buy some if I could. I would pay for them and you can sign them because I'd like them to be at the research center from people. I definitely want to and I will email you on this another time. But I certainly want to have books written by you or articles that will be with your interview and a picture and everything like I do with the all the other people I am interviewing. But of all the books that you have written, which of all the books that you have written what is the one that you think people should read that they really want to know who you are 1:11:22 JS: [laughs] You know, I do not care if they know I am. That is not why I write. I write to say things. I am not into celebrity culture; means nothing to me. 1:11:34 SM: That is okay. But [inaudible] ̶ 1:11:38 JS: I do not care if they know who I am or not. 1:11:42 SM: But they will certainly remember you when they hear your commentary on things. 1:11:46 JS: That will be good. 1:11:47 SM: And that is what, that is what makes you very unique and very historic, in my view. It is, as I say, again, your involvement in so many things. It is like you are multitasking in life, and I also like the fact that you keep bringing the "I" in it. It's my life. It is my thoughts. It is my thought. I do not care what other people think. 1:12:12 JS: Well, that is all I got. 1:12:13 SM: Yeah, I guess my problem is I read too much and then I you hear this person says this and so it makes me think about what they are saying. That is why I asked the question. 1:12:22 JS: Being in an academic environment also. 1:12:24 SM: Yes. 1:12:26 JS: It is pretty stifling. That is what I think. 1:12:26 SM: So now you are obviously an activist. Now when you look at the categories the poet, the writer, the activist, the musician, the radio program, all these other. The um, is there one that stands out above other that you would not have become good in the others if it had not been for this one? Is it the fact that you. 1:12:53 JS: I do not know. I do not think like that I do not have any idea. 1:12:56 SM: You started out as a poet though. 1:12:59 JS: I am still a poet. 1:13:00 SM: Yeah, but you were a thinker, poets are thinkers. 1:13:04 JS: And I still am 1:13:05 SM: Yeah, yes, yes. Poets are thinkers and writers and ideas and ̶ 1:13:10 JS: That is what I do. 1:13:11 SM: Yeah, we will see that that is you and that is helped that think help you expand in this other world of activism and whatever the other categories we might be talking about here. 1:13:28 JS: I do not really get what you are saying. I am the same guy, whatever I am doing, I am the same guy. 1:13:34 SM: Okay, that is all I need. I do not think I have anything. Um, the, the foundation that you have right now the John Sinclair Foundation. 1:13:50 JS: Right. 1:13:51 SM: Now that is really there to protect all the things you have been involved in. Is that correct? So the copyright? 1:13:58 JS: Well, to preserve yes and extend into the future past my lifetime. 1:14:08 SM: That is excellent. Where is that located? Is that in Detroit? 1:14:12 JS: Yeah, it is in Detroit. It is not a physical thing. It is an idea. 1:14:18 SM: Okay. But when you are no longer around who is going to be protecting your stuff? 1:14:24 JS: Oh my board members. Okay very good. Yes, it includes all your books and I guess it your records and ̶ Well, I am in the process of transferring all my intellectual property ownership to the foundation. And also like, I am doing a speaking thing next week for a group of doctors and they are giving me a nice piece of money. I am donating all fees like that to my foundation because I do not need no money. 1:14:55 SM: Very good. 1:14:57 JS: I am on Social Security. 1:14:59 SM: What is your speech on? 1:15:01 JS: Marijuana. A pain conference of doctors. In Cincinnati. 1:15:10 SM: Wow. See, I know people who are dying of cancer and they need it. 1:15:17 JS: Well they need some Simpson Oil, yeah. 1:15:23 SM: We have a customer where I work who does get it and it is helping her survive. 1:15:31 JS: I know two guys that came back from their deathbed. Now, I know a lot of other people that take it since then. Because they proselytize. 1:15:41 SM: Right. 1:15:42 JS: It is good stuff. 1:15:47 SM: From the, from the (19)60s themselves who do you stay in touch with? Is there any of the; do you stay in touch with Bobby Seale and some of the other activists? 1:15:56 JS: Now I never really knew Bobby Seale. I have met him in recent years. But and I met David Hilliard in recent years, but you know, you usually see people when you go to their part of the country so I am in touch with a lot of people around here that were around in the (19)60s. 1:16:17 SM: You link up at all with I think Jeff Gibbs and the movie producers from the Flint area? 1:16:23 JS: You know, I went to their festival last week. I saw Jeff's movie "Planet of the Humans." 1:16:32 SM: How is it? 1:16:34 JS: Terrific. 1:16:38 SM: I got to go see it. 1:16:39 JS: I got to see Mike Moore. Me, Jeff and Mike all went to Davison high school. 1:16:49 SM: And, and Michael was a few years after you though, correct. 1:16:53 JS: They are both thirteen years younger than me. 1:16:55 SM: Right. Wow, they had a high school produce those three. Wow. 1:17:03 JS: [laughs] Amazing, huh? 1:17:03 SM: Yeah, but what is it about Flint? Now, not just the high school, but what is it about Flint that can create three people like you? 1:17:15 JS: Oh we were beyond Flint, we were in Davison, like you know, five thousand people when they were there. [laughs] A great place. It used to be called the vehicle city. When I was a kid in the fifties they had three shifts in the factories around the clock. They had Buick, Chevrolet, Fisher Body, AC spark plugs, Delco batteries, they had all kinds of factories. Powerful little place. 1:17:53 SM: Well Michael Moore's movies have certainly had an impact on people. 1:17:57 JS: Oh yeah, if you had ten Michael Moore’s this would be a different country. 1:18:00 SM: I agree. And he is and he is got a movie, he is probably got another movie in mind he is one after another. 1:18:07 JS: I am sure he does. Well, he edited this one with Jeff. 1:18:10 SM: Right. 1:18:14 JS: He was saying how much fun he had doing some hands on editing because he does not get to edit his own. [laughs] 1:18:24 SM: I guess when since a lot of what I am talking about is the era you grew up in and the America that you grew up in. I am going to say the 1950s (19)60s, (19)70s and (19)80s. And then we got the (19)90s and now. But people our age, those are the ̶ those are the formative years. When you think about those formative years, and you think about America, and you think of what I know you have you have some very negative things to say but what do you think what do you say to the people that are listening to this? When you look at those forty years of post war, say post World War II America and right through to Ronald Reagan, what do you say? What do you say about that? 1:19:13 JS: Well, it is better than post Reagan. You know the ugliness of today started with Reagan. Although Trump makes Reagan look like Socrates. 1:19:32 SM: Now that is a quote. 1:19:34 JS: And he was a stupid motherfucker and a terrible actor. 1:19:40 SM: Yeah, one of the things will always we will never forget about Ronald Reagan is his insensitivity towards people with AIDS. 1:19:48 JS: Well, anybody that was not white and straight. This just came forward in one of his racist conversations with Nixon, just in the news this week. 1:20:05 SM: When would you say that? In the (19)60s and (19)70s, we were taking many steps forward in the positive, trying to get rid of racism, sexism and homophobia. So we take two steps. 1:20:17 JS: Well, we were you know, the opposition was but the government and the establishment was opposing every step of the way. And they still are. Because you see they are the problem. This is their world, that 1 percent that rules all of this, it is their fault. [laughs] Until you deal with them, it is going to keep getting worse and worse and worse. 1:20:43 SM: [inaudible] 1:20:44 JS: They own everything. 1:20:45 SM: What I was going to say was ̶ 1:20:46 JS: They own every newspaper, every TV station, every movie, every record, they own everything. 1:20:54 SM: Well, when you consider the 2 percent of the population makes more than the 80 percent of the rest of the population that says something right there. 1:21:22 JS: Yeah, not very eloquently. 1:21:22 SM: The thing I am really getting at is that back then there was a perception that we were making two steps forward for every step backward now, some other thoughts that were for every step forward we are taking two steps backward. Is that a good description? 1:21:26 JS: I do not know. I know this asshole came in there and everything [inaudible] that the president did that was positive, he dismantled every bit of it. 1:21:34 SM: Right. 1:21:35 JS: What do you call that? That is a lot more than two steps backwards. 1:21:40 SM: You are right. 1:21:42 JS: When you put someone like Betsy DeVos in charge of the Education Department that is like a mile backwards. 1:21:53 SM: What would be your final thoughts on the (19)60s? Just your overall final thoughts on the (19)60s. The era that you say is from 1960 to (19)70? Not on, that is. 1:22:07 JS: Well that is the (19)60s, yeah. 1:22:10 SM: Yeah. Well, just give some adjectives to your final thoughts on that ten years here in America? 1:22:22 JS: I do not know. I do not think that way. I do not know what you want me to say. 1:22:29 SM: Any, any if you looked if you took the whole ten years, what would you say to someone? This is? This is what the ten years was about. 1:22:38 JS: I would not. 1:22:43 SM: So basically what you are saying is that everybody has their own thoughts, and it is the context. 1:22:48 JS: Correct. 1:22:48 SM: It is their context, not your context. 1:22:52 JS: Well, I mean, I do not think about it like that. It was a period in life you know, I have lived almost eight decades. They were all interesting. They were all different. What I did was different and in some ways the same but that ten years it was fun that is the way I look at it. It was fun and the ̶ I ended up in prison. 1:23:22 SM: And you grew from that, obviously, that experience really helped shape you. 1:23:28 JS: Well what else could I do? You live through it or you commit suicide. There is only two ways. 1:23:35 SM: Well you went in there, and then Supreme Court decision. I mean, the impact! That never happened. 1:23:41 JS: But that did not have anything to do with my jail sentence. That was a whole different case. You mean the US Supreme Court. 1:23:49 SM: Yes, yes. 1:23:51 JS: No, that was a whole different case. 1:23:52 SM: Right. 1:23:53 JS: That did not have anything to do with marijuana. I got nine and a half to ten years for possession of two marijuana cigarettes. 1:24:02 SM: Which was ridiculous. 1:24:05 JS: But that is what it was. 1:24:06 SM: It was outlandish and that is why everybody came to your support and the song and everything else. 1:24:11 JS: Right. 1:24:13 SM: And lastly, you would never; I do not think you would ever. Did you ever meet John Lennon? 1:24:19 JS: Sure. 1:24:21 SM: What was it like to meet him? What are your thoughts on him? 1:24:25 JS: Like meeting other male human being. 1:24:30 SM: Of course he was taken from us in 1980. 1:24:33 JS: Yeah. 1:24:38 SM: And from what I have read, is the reason why the Mr. Hoover in the whatever the FBI started getting on his case, when he started doing the song, John Sinclair or something like that in the protests. 1:24:53 JS: They did what now? 1:24:55 SM: I have read in the, in some books that when that concert happened or in that concert where he [together] sang the song, where he sang the song and Yoko's right by his side, that may have been the impetus for the CIA and Mr. Hoover or of course, he is FBI, I should say ̶ 1:25:15 JS: I was also the fault of that asshole senator Helms. 1:25:18 SM: Right. 1:25:21 JS: He wrote to J. Edgar Hoover that this guy in the Beatles was causing trouble and J. Edgar Hoover wanted to know: who were the Beatles. 1:25:29 SM: Yup. Yup. Any final thoughts you want to say on anything? 1:25:37 JS: No. I am not ready to quit. 1:25:41 SM: Just keep going. I want to meet you in person. 1:25:44 JS: Well you have to come to Detroit right now. 1:25:47 SM: Now what I am going to do is I am going to try to come in next 1:25:49 JS: I will be in Cincinnati next Friday. 1:25:52 SM: I cannot do that but you will be at the event next year, will not you? 1:25:57 JS: Which one? 1:25:58 SM: The anniversary of the event we were talking about, the one in April. 1:26:09 JS: Oh, Hash Bash. I go every year. 1:26:13 SM: Well, that, that is where I am going to try to make it next year. 1:26:15 JS: Okay. 1:26:16 SM: Because I know a couple of people that I have interviewed and they are your friends and so they gave me your name and in so I just I would like to meet you because I would like to meet you because you are an activist. 1:26:30 JS: Well, God willing, I will be there. 1:26:32 SM: Yep. But let me just say, I will close with this. We will send you the university, we will send you a copy of this. It will be sent to your email address, I believe? 1:26:43 JS: Yeah. 1:26:44 SM: And they will send it to you and then you have to listen to it to approve it. And then then it will be approved and then it will be used for research and scholarship here at the Binghamton University with the other two hundred, two hundred seventy five other people I have interviewed. 1:27:00 JS: Good. 1:27:00 SM: In the archives, so people and we got to get a good picture of you. And I want your books and I will email you so that if there is books that you have that I can purchase from you, I will pay you and if you could sign them so they will be at the university with your interview. 1:27:15 JS: Will do. 1:27:17 SM: And, John, I want to thank you for being honest and direct, and being who you are. And, and when I had those melodramatic pauses it was because, man, this man knows what he wants. He knows he knows. He knows what he believes in. And that is, I like that in people. I like that in people. And I think and young people need to know that they are in control of their lives. 1:27:44 JS: Yeah, that is what you got to find out. 1:27:47 SM: You got to you got to believe in something too. So you have a great day. 1:27:52 JS: Thanks. Good luck. 1:27:53 SM: Thank you. Yep. Thank you. Bye now. 1:27:55 JS: Bye. (End of Interview) Subject LCSH Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Political activists--United States; Musicians; Sinclair, John--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Sinclair https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ed9ea73b421e90ccf3474dfdb34128f7.jpg 8271af811647c16d2b6b6b9162071982 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6ec1f20699b862e3a52f4c1fd838b82d.mp3 2f3fe226151b880f63400eeff86c8e8f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 8/7/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rennie Davis, 2 Biographical Text Rennie Davis (1940-2021) was a spiritual lecturer and an activist. Davis was an American anti-Vietnam war protest leader of the 1960s. He was one of the Chicago Seven defendants. He has appeared on several shows including Larry King Live and Barbara Walters and has provided business advice for the Fortune 500 companies. Davis was an alumnus of Oberlin College. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 2:31:02 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Michigan; economics; farm; chicken contests; basketball; police brutality; Vietnam; Chicago Seven; 1968 Democratic National Convention; Martin Luther King Jr. Subject LCSH Chicago Seven Trial, Chicago, Ill., 1969-1970; Political activists--United States; Davis, Rennie--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Rennie Davis Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Lynn Bijou Date of interview: 7 August 2019 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:03 Yeah, I-I got a whole set of questions I am going to ask you. It is going to be about your life and everything. And so, speak right into the- clearly as you can. Thanks, Rennie for doing this, I really appreciate it. I know I interviewed you at Silver Spring a couple of years ago, but I want to do something a little more in depth. Because we, we just touched on a few things then. I would like to first start out, what did your parents do for a living? When, a little background on where you grew up, what your parents did. And talk about your years as a kid through high school, and the kinds of activities you may have been involved in in high school. [silence] Hold on, hold on a second. Hold on a second. RD: 00:59 Okay. SM: 01:00 Okay. Go right ahead. RD: 01:02 So, I was born in Lansing, Michigan, and my father was a professor of economics at Michigan State. [clears throat] And in the, this was 1940. And in 1942, with the war beginning, he moved himself and the family to Washington D.C., it becomes something of a renowned expert in the field of labor productivity. And, how, so there were, you know, lots-lots of-lots of decisions being made by the government, you know, in, in his field. So, he came in as a very, in a fairly prominent position and, and he basically, devolved into becoming the-the, the head of the staff of President Truman's Council of Economic Advisers. -and I, [chuckles] I got really into it, and I, you know, I realized there was a science to it, especially hens that were laying eggs would molt their-their, their-their, their skin with bleach in a particular order. So, you know, the egg would come out of the bed, and the, the bed would bleed first. I mean, by bleach I mean it go from a kind of a yellow color to a whitish color. And then the beak would bleach from the back to the front of the beak at a particular order. And, and then depending on the breed and the type of bird, you-you could predict the, the number of eggs that the that chicken has laid, since it last molted- SM: 02:08 Wow. RD: 02:10 He, then bought a farm in Virginia as kind of a weekend retreat. It was about 70 miles west of Washington, down in the Shenandoah, near the Shenandoah River, you know, kind of between the Shenandoah River and the Appalachian Trail is really beautiful place. And when Eisenhower came in, he was considered, a so-called liberal economist and actually got kind of blackballed, really in government for a while, and could not get- you know lost his job, and, you know, could not get another one. And so he-he decided that what he would do is just, move the whole family out to the farm, and-and make a go of it, you know, he himself had been raised at South Hall of Ohio, and, you know, had had kind of, you know, a farming background of sorts, you know. He was a pretty cool guy, really. So, he is, he moved out and he bought the local feed store in the, in the county. And so, suddenly, we, you know, we, we owned the place, that was the hub for all the farmers in the area, I mean, came and got their feet and you know they would come, and talk and tell their stories. I mean, I just loved it, you know, [laughter] I could work so hard and meet these characters. You know, this is rural Virginia. SM: 03:52 Yes. RD: 03:52 And it is, it is you know, Berryville, Virginia is where the feed store was. And the farm was about 12 miles from Barrett Ville. [coughs] I mean, our nearest neighbor was a half mile down the road. So, we were, there is a 500-acre farm, and we, you know, we made a goal but we, you know, we had, we had 6000, boiler chickens- SM: 04:18 Oh my. RD: 04:19 -every 10, 10 weeks, that, you know, were part of the, of the family income and, you know, I managed that and then I went on to so I was in high school, you know, you know the in our graduating class in high school with 50 people. You know, we, there was a little period where in this tiny high school, won the state football champion, you know, year after year after year. SM: 04:50 Wow. RD: 04:50 I mean just- [laughter] just tough little TCS. And so, you know, so I-I basically got recruited by the four H county agents, you know, to join the four H club. You know, I-I-I showcase though, you know, my steer and the competition so forth. But, what drew me in was chicken judging- SM: 05:29 [laughs] Oh my goodness. -its production cycle. And then I discovered that there was also a relationship. I mean, I had a theory about it, I kept testing it, that there was a relationship between the weight of the chicken and, and the, and the number of eggs that were laid. And so, what I would do is, have a scale, and I picked up a chicken and estimate its weight, and then put it on the scale until I could refine myself to-to predict pretty accurately the weight of a chicken. You know, and I mean, I spent an hours [laughs] practicing this thing. [laughs] RD: 06:54 So, when I went out to the, my first contest, you know, I won the Clark County chicken contest, you know, so- SM: 07:03 Wow. RD: 07:04 -I mean, the first time I was ever in a newspaper, I was holding a chicken- SM: 07:10 [laughs] RD: 07:11 -grinning from ear to ear because we just was not counting time, it is a big deal, you know? SM: 07:16 Yeah, yes. [laughter] RD: 07:21 The chicken had just pooped on my pants. SM: 07:23 Oh, no. [laughs] RD: 07:25 I had no idea. So, I had by embarrassment, you know, when the picture came out, there was [crosstalk]. Funny stories like that, you know, so but then I went on to win the state, Virginia state contests. And then I won the east coast, the whole east coast had a contest I went to, and then I went to the-the international contest in Chicago. So, the first time I went to Chicago was to judge chickens. SM: 08:02 Wow. RD: 08:03 And basically, I felt that the judges just did not have my knowledge of chickens. And so, I do not know, I wound up, you know, being ninth or something like that. I mean, I was just humiliated to me, you know- SM: 08:21 [laughs] RD: 08:21 -because I fully expected to win the international contest. And then I blamed the judges that they did not know what they were talking about. [laughs] SM: 08:30 Now, now, in 1968, if you had a break, during the activities, did you go over to that area and see where you had that contest? RD: 08:41 I did not really do that. [laughter] SM: 08:42 No nostalgia? [laughs] RD: 08:43 There was a little too much going on. SM: 08:47 Yeah. [chuckles] RD: 08:50 Like there were people who did, you know, articles on my background, who would discover that this was the first time I came to Chicago and so there was some news about us. You know, back in (19)68. SM: 09:05 [laughs] What was the name? What was the name of your high school? RD: 09:09 Clark County High School. And yeah, it was then, you know, I, I basically, you know, when I was in Washington, I was a B student, but I came to Clark County, I, I was an A student. I had one B, in I did not know it was [inaudible], you know, some typing or something like that, you know- SM: 09:37 [laughs] RD: 09:37 -ninth grade, and I was always upset because I-I got all A's except for that one B. And, and they counted valedictorian was measured based on three years and a semester rather than the full four years. I would have been valedictorian if we could have measured it in 4 years. SM: 10:01 [laughs] RD: 10:01 But anyways, three and a half years, so I was salutatorian. I had, I had good grades, I was the president of the student body and I was also the editor of the school newspaper and I belong to various organizations and I played. I was on the varsity basketball team. SM: 10:24 And were you the guard? RD: 10:27 I was the guard. Yeah, I we had a barn that I put up a basketball hoop. So, I was able to stand on the very outer edge of the of this barn and, and practice a shot there. It would have been, you know, in basketball terms, it was kind of beyond the key. So, it was a long shot, you know. SM: 10:52 Right. RD: 10:53 And I got pretty deadly with that shot. [laughs] Practicing with the bar. SM: 10:59 [laughs] RD: 10:59 So that was my only claim to fame really was I could I could nail it from a great distance. And so, it got me all the you know, so I played first string varsity because of that shot. SM: 11:13 You know, "Pistol Pete" did that Pistol Pete Maravich. He practiced, I think like that. And of course- RD: 11:18 Oh yeah? SM: 11:18 -he became a great shooter. And now and when I think of you again, Rennie, I am going to think of you as "Pistol Rennie."[laughter] Okay, now we were after high school, where did you go to college? RD: 11:34 I went to Oberlin College. And I actually, you know, and I really have no criticism, why bother about this? I think I would probably do the same thing. I won a four-year scholarship, if I would still study animal husbandry at-at VPI over at Virginia State University. So no, my dad wanted me to take the scholarship, you know, obviously, but and, you know, he explained that the president of the Michigan State had graduated in animal husbandry, so it did not limit you in any way, you know. But I do not know, I was just, you know, I did not really know much about overland really, you know, other than I just heard, it was a really fine school. And, you know, turns out that, you know, its graduates, you know, rank the highest in grades, you know, in graduate school. I did not know that at the time. So, when I went to Oberlin, I mean, the first, the first evening, I sat at a table was, there was, you know, 10 people at the table. And I, you know, we started introducing ourselves and, and everybody at the table was a national American dollar, except me. [laughter] And then, the very first grade I got was an English composition, that I got an F. SM: 13:07 Oh, no. RD: 13:09 [laughs] I have never gotten anything, but A's, you know. So, I was just lucky. So the first year, I did not really talk to anybody, I just went, you know, I just studied until two in the morning and I went all out studying, you know, so, but the first year it got me back, you know, in, you know, kind of able to hang in there. SM: 13:31 Right. RD: 13:31 So, I would say I was a B student, but by the sophomore year in Oberlin College. You know, we, Tom Hayden came to Oak alone and, you know, met with a group of us we had started, we had started a political party, in in tents. I was a sophomore. And the idea was to bring political issues into student government, you know, like civil rights. SM: 14:03 Oh, yes. RD: 14:03 And so we were, we were all following what was happening in the south. This was like, the second semester of my sophomore years, this is 1960. So yeah, so basically, with-with a first election, I mean, I was the, you know, the sort of the helpless center of this political party, either what title it was, I guess I was the president of the party or something, I do not know. And so, we-we swept the election, we-we won every seat you know. Suddenly, we-we had real influence in the college, you know, I mean, we-we took on racism in private housing and overload and things like that. And it was, it was really quite remarkable. When Tom came through, you know, he basically you know, he-he and his-his friends were at the University of Michigan and they had done the same thing; they created a political party too, it was the same idea. We had never talked to each other about it, but then they had similar success. But Tom wanted to basically organize something with students, you know, in the, you know, throughout the country and the north, especially- SM: 15:25 Right. RD: 15:25 -which was really turned into SDS: Suits for a Democratic Society. So, once after Tom came through, I would say, I was in the movement, basically full time, you know, I never, [chuckles] I mean, I-I would I-I could study and pass tests, you know, that sort of thing. When I, when I graduated, I went to the University of Illinois, and Labor and Industrial Relations, and it was a fairly good school, a lot of Japanese students. And I, you know, I never really, I mean, you know, -II would just study. I-I actually had the highest-grade point average in the history of the university, but it was- SM: 16:09 Wow. RD: 16:09 -because I could cram at the end, you know. [laughter] Classes, or did very well. So, anyway, you know, the, you know but the good grades in the University of Illinois gave me quite remarkable scholarship opportunities. And I went into, we all gathered at the University of Michigan, in graduate school, that by we, I mean, kind of the leadership of SDS: Todd Gitlin, Paul Potter, you know, myself, Rob Berlage. I mean, pretty much everybody went to the University of Michigan. And that is where we kind of really formulated, you know, what we were going to try to do for the decades. SM: 17:01 Is that, is that picture that I se- that is on the web is Tom is on the left, and you are on the right, and there is a whole group of other students in the middle. I know Todd Gatlin to one of them. RD: 17:13 Right, yeah. SM: 17:13 And I believe, and I believe Richard Flax is there too. RD: 17:17 Yeah. SM: 17:18 And his eventual wife, I forget. And I think she was there. And so, and there are a lot of other ones. Is that the picture the group you are talking about? RD: 17:28 Well, a lot of them were at the University of Michigan, but that basically was a, SDS conference. Picture that. Yeah, that was in that time. You know, I am not a quite a, you know, want to say poor here on but I am not sure about that. I am not quite I know Clark, Kissinger took that picture. I have seen it too. But anyway, that was that was an SDS conference meeting. That is really what that picture was. SM: 18:05 Did Tom talk when he when you met him about meeting President Kennedy and a group of students in the library steps at Michigan when he was coming through? They were running for president. RD: 18:19 I-I heard about that. But I did not come from Tom. I am not sure who has shared that with me. I knew about it, but I did not. I do not think Tom and I ever talked about it. SM: 18:32 Now, did you form an SDS chapter then at Overland? RD: 18:38 Not really. I mean, we had the progressive CSL, prudent progressive student league was the name of our campus political party and, and we were affiliated loosely with what SDS people were doing. But I once-once the-the movement, so called movement started, for me, I-I was not really doing much locally at all. I mean, at the University of Illinois, where was a liberal luncheon that was pulled together by Robert Ebert. No, who was a kind of a film critic. I mean, became a film critic. SM: 19:28 Oh, Roger Ebert. Yes-yes. RD: 19:30 Yeah. And, we had a similar situation where there was really blatant racism with off-off campus housing. So, the university basically lists these houses were available. Your brand is for students, so they have the support of the university, but they would not allow black people to stay there. And so, we had a, so I, I proposed that we just take the whole university out on strike to stop it, you know. And so, what happened was, I went in and met with the president of the University of Illinois, just myself, and to help told them that, you know, we were going to basically shut the university down over this issue. And it was it, we never had to do anything. They-they were just terrified of us, but you know, but then they changed their policy. SM: 20:37 What year was this? What year? RD: 20:40 Oh, my goodness, let us see. So, I graduated from Oberlin of (19)62. So, I guess I would be in (19)63, when that happened. SM: 20:51 Okay. Now all, there was a lot of things going on, the end of the Vietnam wars, has not become a front-page item by that time. But were you aware of that- RD: 21:05 Yeah, yeah. Vietnam really became more front page when U.S. troops, you know, actually went into Vietnam. I mean, there was covert activities, and we were aware of it, but it was 1965, when troops actually were sent to Vietnam. That, I mean, it was 16. Four, I was in, we wanted to go into communities, and do community organizing the way this southern snick students were working in the south. SM: 21:44 Yes, mhm. RD: 21:44 So, I went, I became the director of a thing called the, "Economic Research and Action Project." And-and basically, we started in the summer of 1964. We started 10 community projects, Tom went to Newark, and I moved into a white Appalachian Community and called uptown- SM: 22:12 Wow. RD: 22:12 -Chicago. And there was another white community in Cleveland that we went into. And so, they were the idea was, they were poor communities, and we were going to support them to try to, you know, give them more of a voice, you know, tenants that were, you know, where their buildings were run down, you know, would-would form tenant unions and welfare mothers with for welfare unions. It was, you know, I was there for three years, basically. SM: 22:49 Wow. RD: 22:50 And uptown as an organizer, I mean the first night that we were there, the city knew we were there. I mean, we had, I think the first night they were 40 students who were going to join the project. And we were all in one apartment building, you know, sleeping on the floor- SM: 23:14 [laughs] RD: 23:14 -the police, the police you know, just basically broke down the door and came in and, you know, had guns drawn and put guns at our head- SM: 23:26 Oh my god. RD: 23:27 -and were screaming at us, you know, we-we, I mean we had no idea, we were, everybody was asleep, you know. And so, we were carted off and taken to jail. We had no idea why or what the thing was, you know, and so, we, you know, we-we got out on bail the next morning. And-and the, the Chicago Tribune. You know, the front page was about we were having a beer drug party, and it was broken up by police and we were arrested, you know. So that, that gave me my first reality check on where I was, [laughs] now in Chicago. Yes. SM: 24:09 My gosh. RD: 24:09 The way that, Mayor Daley was going to let anybody come in and mess with his city. And, so yeah, we had one other raid you know later where they came in and just broke through the plate glass window, the office and literally, be chickpea chairs. And you know, I mean, it was just, it was just amazing. Really, you know. No one was arrested or heard and that was at the middle of a night. And, we had young people and teenagers who marks on the police against police brutality, which was a very severe issue for, for that, you know age group. SM: 24:53 Yes. RD: 24:57 There was tension. I mean, there were, I mean, you know, it was one of those times where, you know, one false move and, you know, you could be dead, you know, I mean, there was police lined, both sides of the street, it was quite, quite on the edge of tension, you know, and risks. SM: 25:14 This is quite- RD: 25:15 You know, so there was a lot of a lot of bravery. And you know, it was not organizing that easy. And especially in a white community but, you know, we-we did you know, I mean, welfare mothers, had sit-ins and got, you know, got a voice at the welfare office where grievances could be heard in a more orderly way. I mean, there were there were changes that took place it was, it was rather remarkable. And it was quite a, quite an experience of my life, [chuckles] you know three years and up [inaudible] SM: 25:46 Wow. RD: 25:47 But then, the SDS organized the first march, or the first rally against the war in, in Washington, D.C., I did not even go but I mean, I was obviously involved with it. And basically, with that, I realized that the movement was moving on, you know, we, it was time to basically come out of the community and return to a national perspective. SM: 26:18 Oh yes. RD: 26:19 It was really with that demonstration in Washington, it was about 25,000 people, that I, you know, started to, you know, I am leaving Chicago and starting to return to [inaudible]. I guess the first thing that happened was the, you know, we-we were making contact with the Vietnamese to learn more about Vietnam, and we were invited to a conference by, organized by the Vietnamese basically, to basically they were, said they wanted to share their, their history and their point of view about the war with a, with a cross section of the American anti-war movement. So, 42, Americans went to Bratislava, Czechoslovakia. And, you know, Martin Luther King was, was going to go was on that delegation, but he had schedule conflict at the last minute and, and did not go, but we, you know, we went and, you know, I mean, we look like the ragtag group, you know, we would have the hardship of crossing the ocean and plane, you know. [chuckles] The Vietnamese were all there waiting, you know, dressed in elegant, formal clothes. SM: 27:41 [laughs] RD: 27:42 You know, then there was this beautiful woman who just, you know, was clearly kind of a centerpiece for their group, which we had no idea who she was, but she turned out to be mad. And when she been, and-and she had basically come from, she was at that point, you know, on the Central Committee of the, of the National Liberation Front, was in the south herself. And basically, I would take six months to, of travel to basically come to this conference, Madam Being. And, and so and then it turned out that it was, it was the most prestigious conference of, of Vietnamese, I mean, legislators and high-level people, both in the north and the south. It was the highest-level delegation of Vietnamese since the Geneva Convention in 1954 that ended the war with the French. SM: 28:40 Wow. RD: 28:41 It was very impressive, you know, we had no idea that anything like that would happen. And so, so it was very informative and eye opening. And so, they, you know, and they was not too scripted. I mean, they were, struggled some with their English, but-but generally, it was, you know, it was, you know, they were very sincere people, and they, you know, they were moving and touching and, you know [chuckles] so that at the, at the very end of the conference, seven of us were selected by them to come to Hanoi if we wanted to, and that included Tom Hayden and myself. SM: 29:22 Wow. RD: 29:23 And so, we made one of the very first trips into Hanoi. And then we were, you know, Hanoi was absolutely off limits from the military point of view, the mill-the Pentagon's position was that it was only bombing steel and concrete, military targets in Vietnam. But every single day, we were in Hanoi, we had to go into bomb shelters, and-and, and bombs would go off in the city of Hanoi- SM: 29:56 Wow. RD: 29:57 -and we-we would then get in a car afterwards and drive out and see a whole city block gone. SM: 30:04 Wow. RD: 30:04 And so, I mean, Hanoi was definitely being bombed. And-and you know, then we would go into villages where, you know, obviously people were being bombed, especially by cluster bomb units, which really is anti-personnel weapons. So, by this point, I-I was pretty steamed up, you know, and so I-I came back on the day, what-what happened was that organizations like SDS, were doing things against the war, but there was no coalition, kind of similar to today. There is no real permanent coalition that makes the teaching planning possible. It just or you know, just sort of spontaneously, if something's going on in the media, and social media picks up on it, you know, you can get a pretty good turnout on something but you cannot hold it together afterwards. So, we, got a cup from 1965 with the SDS, anti-war gathering, we-we organized a coalition. And by 1967, we had 150 national organizations in a coalition, called the "National Mobilization Committee Against the War in Vietnam." And, we put on our first demonstration in October of 1967. And that was the-the day that I returned from Hanoi. So, I was obviously a key speaker. My talk was carried live on television, my dad, at this point, my dad had, been hired by the, by the government, he was back in good graces, I guess, to become the Secretary of Labor. In a kind of a, I do not know whether to call it a shadow government. It was it was the government that if there was nuclear war, could function, somehow. And so, you know, he was the Secretary of Labor in that government, and they basically what they did was they just made constant plans of every scenario. And his task was how labor could be utilized under different kinds of conditions. And they, there was a very hard rock on the mountain where our farm was. At the top of the mountain, they converted that into a government installation, called Mount Weather. And, and basically, my dad worked at Mountain Weather. And so, when I was going into, when I was in Bratislava, and when invited to Hanoi, I, we were on a party line. You know, our phone number was one, seven, four, J, one, two, that was our phone number at the farm. So, it meant that, if you heard one long ring and two short rings, that meant we should pick up. That was our- one long ring two short rings was our-our heart, our signal, you know, the whole neighborhood would pick up too, probably 14 people on the party line. SM: 33:32 [laughs] RD: 33:34 So, so I knew it was not a good idea to call my dad from Bratislava to tell him I am staying in Hanoi. SM: 33:41 [laughs] RD: 33:42 So, I just figured I would tell him when I got back. But, he was when I was, in Laos getting ready to board an ICC plane into Hanoi, the, I mean, they had one of the most advanced security operations in the U.S. government at Mount Weather. So, a group of people came to my father's office and said, "Are you aware that your son is about to go into Hanoi?" He-he was in shock, you know, there was no way that was possible. And so, when then he sees me on television, you know, coming back from Hanoi, and so there was a little period where my dad and I were at odds. [laughs] We were very close family, and it did not last long. [inaudible] SM: 34:31 [laughs] Right. Rennie, what was the year when the first conference happened that when the 40 some people went to Hanoi, what year was that? Unnamed speaker: 34:42 That was, October 1967. SM: 34:46 And then you went a second time, correct? RD: 34:50 Yeah. And then I went again in (19)69 because the Vietnamese decided to do a peace gesture, by releasing prisoners of war. And they had an historic, policy because they have been at war for so long, I mean, with different countries and everything. And essentially, the concept was that when they were at war, they were not at, their war with a government of that country, but they were not at war with the people. And so, they recognize, the people of the country as legitimate spokesmen, not the government, and who, and whatever group emerges as most broadly representing the peace sentiment of the population, then comes the official representative of-of, to them of who they will recognize. And so, our coalition was, you know, obviously, the largest coalition, anti-war coalition, in the United States. And I at this point, I was the coordinator of that coalition. SM: 36:01 Wow. RD: 36:01 And so, and it done Chicago. So, I, to them, I was the official representative of the American people. So, they would only release the prisoners to me, personally, if I came. SM: 36:15 Wow. RD: 36:16 So that was quite heavy. [laughs] You know it was like, oh okay. We went before the judge, obviously, you know, we were in, we were about to go into a trial of this point. And-and, I mean, I was just astounded. The State Department sent out a high-level person from Washington to represent me before the judge that this was in the national interest that I go. And, and Judge Hoffman, our judge turned it down, that pointing out that the U.S. and Vietnam, North Vietnam did not have an extradition treaty, so I could go and never come back. And so, he-he denied my right to go to Hanoi pick up P.O.W [prisoners of war]. SM: 37:01 And that is- RD: 37:02 And so, they-they, I mean, they would just appeal it, you know, in 45 minutes, it was reversed on appeal. But it was still quite a quite a statement about what was about to happen with the trial, you know, I-then I went to Hanoi and pick up the P.O.W.'s and we had about a two-week, trip. And, so I wanted to go to the, the Panhandle region because between the (19)90s and the (19)70 parallel, this is still in North Vietnam. I knew that I mean, I have heard anyway, that more bombs were dropped in this tiny little section of the world then were dropped in all a WWII and Korea combined. And I just could not imagine what that place must be like and no one has seen it, and no westerner had gone into the Panhandle. And so, you know, I pleaded with the Vietnamese let me make a trip to the Panhandle. They were, it was very difficult because that was you know, was not open bombing at that time, but it was still dangerous. And, but they-they agreed to do it and so off we went into the Panhandle and you know, I came to a city a city like being V-I-N-H at about 100,000 people and it-it really you know, in in pictures of WWII- dressed in the Hamburg- SM: 38:46 Oh yes. RD: 38:46 -I mean, you know, kind of collapse buildings, but you know, you still see maybe, a bit of a wall sticking up you know, there was, there was a sense that there was a city there. But in Being, there was no -I mean it was more likely the surface of the Moon, I mean, it was just it was literally just crater, upon crater, upon crater. There was no structures, nothing, nothing was left and yet everywhere you looked it looked like people were just, going on about their life. And-and, and-and nobody I mean, like they missed the war or something. I mean, it was just bizarre. And so, I went into an underground tunnel. I mean, really deep into the Earth, and sat in chair. We, our delegation sat in chairs, and they put on a-a Vietnamese cultural performance for us in the, in the Panhandle. That was basically, I mean it really beautiful man. They were dressed in traditional Vietnamese costumes and everything. And, the songs were essentially about how, you know, Vietnam was I mean, it was just celebrating Vietnam and that peace would come and that they would endure, you know, just an inspiring song for people that are in the midst of, you know, hell on wheels, to-to feel that they would survive. And-and it would appear that, you know, most of them actually really did, but even in the midst of that kind of bombardment. It was truly spectacular- SM: 40:23 Wow. RD: 40:23 -was one of them, the [inaudible]. I mean, I was, I mean, even today, I am just amazed that, that actually existed, you know, but it was really impressive to see it. SM: 40:35 During all these times, after you left Oberlin and the graduate school, and getting involved with SDS and getting in and having all these experiences and going to Vietnam and getting involved with Tom and other major activists, did you ever think I am that chicken farmer kid back in- RD: 40:57 [laughs] SM: 40:58 -back in Virginia, and look where I am now? Never expect-. You know, it is like, it is life has amazing directions we all go in. But this is an amazing story when you think about it. RD: 41:10 Yeah, you know, I-I do not know if I dwelled that way. But I-I was aware of myself, you know. I mean, in though, in high school, my idea of a student movement was the four H club. So, it was quite a transition to go from high school, and this little rural community where I mean, I-I was, I-I was truly a farmer. I mean, you know, I mean, I was the one that did the chores [inaudible], you know. Milk cows and have sheep and-and tended to the animals before go on the hike, before going to classes. And then I would, and school was 12 miles away. And then I would come home and do the chores in the evening. So, I mean, it was a, it was work. And you know, it was a different world. But, yeah, so just an all-American boy, who, you know, turned into a revolution, or I guess. SM: 42:09 Who were some of the other people that came on that first delegation? RD: 42:14 Oh, let us see Vivian Rothstein, Carol, shoot. I am going to- yeah, I-I had to look up everybody's name, I would, mess it up. I think, it is actually in the, in my book. I think I list all- SM: 42:33 Okay. RD: 42:34 -the people who have read it, if you want to look it up. SM: 42:36 Was Daniel Berrigan with the group? RD: 42:39 No, he was not. SM: 42:41 I know, he went he went on a trip to Vietnam as well. RD: 42:44 Yeah. Both of those trips, you know, were organized by our, our team of people. Dave Dellinger, Tom was involved, you know, I was involved in, you know, once we made that that first 1967 trip and you know, we became the conduits for, for other delegations, to-to go, including Jane Fonda when she went. SM: 43:13 Right. RD: 43:14 Uh, yeah. SM: 43:17 Were you going on to college campuses and speaking during this time period as well? RD: 43:23 Yeah. So, yeah, yes, I was, you know, I-I did a fair amount of speaking during the SDA-SDS days. And then, and then in the coalition, I became the coordinator of the anti-war coalition after the Pentagon demonstration in October 1967. And, I actually learned about, you know, so the plan was to go to Chicago. And, I was convinced that we could bring a half million people to Chicago, and I prepared for a half million people, actually learn about the Democratic Party's decision to have their convention in Chicago. So, the Democrats, you know, Lyndon Johnson was the president. He was the one, you know, commanding the-the orchestration of the war in Vietnam. So, the responsibility really, at that stage was with the Democratic Party, and we were in a bomb shelter in Hanoi. And it was, you know, it was, there were not lights in there so it was completely dark and so the Vietnamese were trying to, I do not know I would not say entertain us but you know, have something to do while we waited for the bombing raid to end, and you could hear bombs go off I mean, in the bomb shelter and feel the vibration and the ground. But they, you know, they had flashlights. And so, they had a wire service, AP wire service. And they were just reading the news from the U.S. to basically, I do not know, you know, keep us preoccupied again. And then they read that the Democratic Party had decided to, to go to Chicago. And then everybody got all excited, said "Oh, you are from Chicago- SM: 45:32 [laughs] RD: 45:32 -oh, the Democrats are going to yours." And I did not really say anything at that time. But inside myself, I realized that was going to be in Boston at this event. I was from Chicago, and I, you know, and I was the coordinator of the coalition, so here we go. So yeah, so I kind of knew, I was starting to prepare myself in the life where what was going to happen Chicago, and I, I really felt that at that point, there was no opposition to-to Lyndon Johnson. And it does not, you know, this would be for McCarthy or any, any anti-war candidate. So, we just thought that there would be a rank and file walk out of Democrat to join our demonstration in Chicago. And so, I-I, you know, really, that I was preparing for a half million people, then basically the mayor of Chicago, you know, announced that he was not going to grant permits. The, Ramsey Clark was, you know, my, my dad knew Ramsey Clark, who was the attorney general under Lyndon Johnson. And so, he helped facilitate, communication between me and-and, and Ramsey Clark's office, I-I basically want to know if the, if the federal government supported Mayor Daley's position to not grant permits. And they clearly did not, they knew that was, I mean, to have riots in Chicago at their convention was the last thing in the world they wanted. So, they sent out Roy Wilkins, who was really, oh, you know, right hand, man, you know, a very high-level executive in the Justice Department representing Ramsey Clark, to meet with me. And we are both little skeptical about each other, you know, we, but we spent time together and I-I saw that he was a very cool guy, I liked him, actually. And I trusted him. And he, you know, he came to feel the same way about me. You know, he has had interviews since then, about how, you know, he really was won over by who, who I was and what I was trying to do. And so, he went to Mayor Daley on his own to basically make the case that, that he had to grant permits. And just so, soon as he mentioned my name, Daley, just I mean, his whole face turned beet red. [laughs] He went, he was just fuming, you know, he was so, you know, he knew me from before when I was a community organizer, you know, so I, you know, I do not know if I was the representative when it came. But he, you know, he really realized that that is why he shared this with me later that they were, they were just not, you know, Mayor Daley was not going to grab permits, that was just the way it was. Even then we did not know how bad it would be. But yeah, we had a real decision to make whether or not to call it off. Because, you know, go, you know, I knew enough about Chicago to know that, to go and have a demonstration without permits, was-was could be lethal. I mean, you know, people could lose their life. I have you know, I had no idea that it would be, as extreme as it turned out to be but, you know, I realized that, you know, we would have to now prepare for I mean, the-the main organizational focus for me in Chicago was marshals because I wanted the ability to have communication with whoever did come in the streets, at night, you know, and so we needed thousands of marshals with a particular type, of I mean, a really true organization, the ability you know, just to, for me to say something and reach every single person on the street running through the crowds or anything, I wanted to have that ability. And then the other thing was, medics. Including medical doctors as well as health practitioners, who are steeped in steer gas and, bandages and, you know, just I mean in in case anybody got injured. And so, we, I do not know what the numbers were, but probably over a thousand medics- SM: 50:19 Wow. RD: 50:19 -and way over a thousand marshals were involved. I mean, to give you an idea when, at the very last minute, that mayor, did grant a permit for Grant Park to basically have the, you know, that permits were granted kind of thing. So, I decided to take it so that people who, you know, adults, so to speak, could safely come, you know, and so, we had, you know, pretty good turnout at Grant Par. This was, yeah, I do not know, you know, we were, you know, it was a daytime thing. And, you know, it was beautiful a day and suddenly, a young person, a teenager, went to the flagpole and lowered the flag to half-mast. For him, it was like showing a sign of international distress. But the police just came in and to make, to arrest him, you know, and they just clubbed people as they came in and, and they rested him and then they pulled back down. And so, I mean, I am trying to give an example of our marshals are, you know, I had a marshal line go up where people locked arms, they face the police away from the crowd, but we formed the human stent around our own group, which were I mean, they were, they were throwing things and screaming and you know, just beside themselves, and, and that marshal line went up, like, boom, boom, boom, yeah, it was, it was like a military precision. [laughs] That-that completely calmed our own group down. I mean, we took total control of that situation. And then I was on a bullhorn, and basically said, you know, we, we have our legal permit, and if you would, you know, kindly pull back, you know, we can continue our rally here. And, and this-this the sight of me on a bullhorn with that kind of, you know, does the superintendent or the assistant superintendent of Police, order the police to charge again, and it was just phenomenal, really, I mean, I had a bodyguard, who was a jujitsu master, who had his leg broken in that assault- SM: 52:50 Oh my gosh. RD: 52:50 I was hit on the head. And, you know, I-I, it was, I-I was conscious, and kind of trying to crawl along the ground. But you know, I was just being hit on the back. SM: 53:03 Wow. RD: 53:03 And I-I really thought that I was going to - this was going to be it for me, you know, I might not make this, you know, there was a little chain linked fence, in the park that actually seemed to save my life. I-I was able to come to that chain linked fence, and just for two seconds, get under that fence and stand up and get into the crowd. Where I was in, you know, escorted away from the violence. And, you know, into a place, now I passed out and [laughs] came back. And-and so, then then I was taken to the hospital, because I mean, I-I wound up getting 30 stitches. And this is one of the most amazing things ever. I mean, yeah, we were obviously, you know, in the, I mean, that Chicago was just riveted on what was happening. And so, I am, I am sort of, you know, the police were just hysterical about wanting to arrest me, you know, I mean, I have been beaten to a pulp, and, and but I had not been arrested. So that was not good. So, they, they decided that I must be at the hospital. So, they decided to do a room by room search, of every room in the hospital to arrest me. And, I mean, to this day, I still find this amazing. I, there was a group of, of staff, people, nurses and people that worked at the hospital, but they I mean, these were career employees, who you know, would have lost their job and who knows what else to know if they had been, they had me on a little cart and covered me with a sheet and basically just, you know, hid me and moved me away from the police until like, I got to an exit, and then they you know, and then I got up. I mean, I-I had a pressure bandage around me that made me look like, a WWII poster child or something, you know, it is like - but you know, but I got out, I got out of the hospital because of the staff, and, you know, got to a friend's house that night. And you know, then I watched the night of the nomination, was just, you know, very bloody in front of Conrad Hilton. SM: 55:23 Yes. RD: 55:23 I watched like everybody else on television. SM: 55:26 Randy, were there two [crosstalk] were there two events happening, the-the event that you organized, and were the Hippies organizing a separate event? RD: 55:36 Well, the Hippies were a part of our coalition. So, but they were prominent, because they were sort of outrageous and funny, and, you know, they made fun of Mayor Daley and so forth. And I-I kind of normally would have wanted to keep that a little more tucked in. But, but given the circumstances, you know, especially with Abby [last name], he brought a sense of levity and humor. I mean, he could take a group of reporters in a, you know, crowded into a room, that, you know, were basically I mean, the city was in a state of preparing for siege, and, and everybody was uptight and tense. And, you know, here was, here was as one of the spokesmen for the event. And so, the press are just, you know, pounding him with questions. You know, they were serious [inaudible]. And he could literally just turn the whole audience into outright laughter. And it was just amazing to see it, you know, he would do this again and again, I found that to be, given the circumstances to be really pretty refreshing and helpful. So, Abby, and I actually, we were, we were close together, we, you know, I, in the beginning, I moved our whole operation in the Linkin Park, which is where the hippies were camping out. And, you know, we, you know, he appreciated my organizational ability, because they did not have that, you know, the marshals and the things that we could do. And, and I appreciate it. It is, it is levity, you know, Allen Ginsberg was there, you know, chanting ohms, and anything that calm people down was good to me, you know. SM: 57:30 How did-how did, you know before the Trump- before the trial started, and all this melee that was going on, how did they pick eight people? RD: 57:40 Well, it was clearly a decision to-to you know, I mean, some-some of them were logical, obviously, myself, they fell on chair. Tom Hayden, you know, and Abby and Jerry too. But, you know, the-the John Freud's and Lee Weiner were not instrumental in the, in the demonstration. I mean, they were there. But, what they were-were they were university professors who are against the war. And it just felt like it was more of a political trial, to warn, university professors hand off the antiwar movement. Bobby Seale, literally. I mean, what I had invited Eldridge Cleaver to speak in Chicago, and at the last minute, he could not come. And Bobby, you know, so they Alvarez made the decision to invite Bobby to replace them. I did not even know that, you know, so Bobby, just a rocket, you know. So, Bobby came and made two speeches, that is all he did. And then left. So, you know, he had nothing to do with Chicago at all, you know. And, and but, you know, he was the chairman and founder of the Black Panther Party, and so he put him in. So, it was more like, you know, what would work from the government point of view to kind of, say, these are the leaders that we want to really go after, and especially with Bobby Seale. You know, it was, you know, tying in all white people's fear of black people, especially, you know, [chuckles] black people like the Black Panther Party, you know, so I, you know, it just felt like it was more of a political decision than anything else from the Justice Department. SM: 59:36 There was a point where they, they had to tie him up and became the Chicago seven. Do you remember the day that happened? RD: 59:46 I do not remember the day. You know, it was pretty far into the trial, although the beginnings of it started right at the beginning. What happened was that, Charles Gary was Bobby Steele's attorney and Charles Gary had a gallbladder crisis and had to go into surgery just before the trial. So, he went before the judge and asked for a continuance. You know, in Chicago, you can get a continuance for a parking ticket, you know, I mean, here though, the-the New York Times has already called, calling the trial before he even starts the most significant political trial in American history. And, and so Gary just, you know, wants a continuance of the trial, so he can have his surgery and come back. So, the judge turns, turns down the defense request, is the judge actually turned out every single motion of the defense over five and a half months trial, now even requests to go for a bathroom break - anything that defense did was denied by the judge. So, so Bobby, basically came in and, you know, did not have a lawyer and decided himself that he would defend himself. And so, and the judge insists that he could not do that, that Bill Kunstler, who is our lawyer, at with Bobby was picked up in California, and-and, and escorted across the country, which took six days of travel. And it was like he was just kidnapped, and no one knew where he was. And so, when he appeared in Cook County Jail, you know, everyone was relieved, but everybody wants to know, he was okay. And so, Bill Cussler was the only lawyer available. So, he-he, he signed in to Bobby to basically go and just to visit him to make sure he was, you know, okay, you know. And so, the judge used that to say that he had a lawyer Bill Kunstler, who was a lawyer record. And Bill Kunstler, you know, indicated the whole story and that he was not his lawyer, and that he only did that for one purpose only, which was to make sure he had not been brutalized on his trip across the country by police. So anyway, that is set up the contest. So, when somebody would mention Bobby's name, as you know, on the on the witness, you know, someone would be-be a witness to in the trial called by the governments and mentioned Bobby's name, Bobby would then stand up to cross examine the witness [laughs], you know. And the judge would just freak out- SM: 1:02:44 [laughs] RD: 1:02:44 -and ordered the marshals which were in a line, the whole outer walls of the courtroom, they-they all look like, you know, Chicago, Cleveland, linebackers. SM: 1:02:56 [laughs] RD: 1:02:56 I mean, they were pretty big, burly guys. [chuckles] They would come and they would, you know, push Bobby back into his chair, and it just kept escalating and getting stronger and stronger, you know, and-and, and sometimes, you know, rather than, you know, I mean, we-we would get involved sometimes to try to, you know, form a, a ring around Bobby's chairs, because it was it was physical, and the jury was in the room. I mean, they were might be being hustled out, but they would see, you know, Bobby being, you know, manhandled in the trial, you know. So, and this went on and just kept building and getting stronger. And then one day, Bobby was not, did not come out and we were all waiting. And then suddenly, he comes out and he was being carried by four marshals, it who and they he was chained to, he was tied down to a chair, and he has got a pressure bandage around his mouth. And, you-you know, they bring him out, instead of at the, at the, at the conference table on the defense side, you know, in front of the jury, and basically the judges explaining that this is a necessary step to keep him from talking in the courtroom and bobbing you know, then you know, they call out to his, his, his bandage. And you can you know, he is a little garbled, but you can hear it. And so, the-the days go on like this, where basically Bobby, the band aids around Bobby just gets you know, more and more brutal and tighter and tighter. And-and he is, he is, his arms are so tight to his chair that it-it stops the circulation of blood in his arm. And so, you know, the lawyers are pointing him out, they got cruel and unusual punishment and so they-they loosen the thing and then his arm will fly up, as they loosen the strap, you know, then the marshals think he is attacking somebody and they come in and they start beating him. Right. And I mean, the jury is still in the room or leaving the room. I just, it just becomes unbelievable. And so, this, this image there, it is there is an artist's rendition is what it is because there is no photography allowed in the courtroom at that time. And so, there is this picture of Bobby sealed, chained and gagged as a, as an artist's rendition, you know, goes out to Africa, China, you know, all of Asia, Europe, you know, South America, the United States. I mean, it is a symbol of the world. I mean, here is a black man who is chained and gagged, because he cannot, you know, get a lawyer of his choice in an American courtroom- SM: 1:05:54 Once you- RD: 1:05:55 -become the icon of the whole trial really, you know. SM: 1:05:59 What- RD: 1:06:00 So, it is, it is- yep, go ahead. SM: 1:06:02 Yeah. What did you think of Judge Hoffman, I, and also the other seven, when they were, allowed to speak? Did he get animated? Did he have his problems with others or? You know, did he have problems with all of you? Did he treat any of you with respect? You know, I just-just, you know, just-just thoughts about that. And how long was the trial and the whole thing? It is historic. RD: 1:06:28 Yeah. Well, the judge, you know, at-at first, we were a little shocked by the, the prejudice of the judge. You know, later on, we learned that he had a reputation in Chicago with other attorneys as just being really difficult judge, belligerent, you know, he was, he was recommended to be removed from the, from-from you know, playing the role of judge by, by the lawyers in in Chicago in that district. But somehow, he survived and kept on doing it. And now he would, you know, at lunchtime, he would have two or three martinis and he would come back and slur his words and he was just a little bit you know- SM: 1:07:17 [chuckles] RD: 1:07:17 -but you know, he-he, he just loathes us I mean, then he was, you know, he would miss pronounce people's names, Dilinger with Dilinger not Gallanger. And, you know, Wineglass, you know, who was an attorney, was wild man as, you know he would just, he would come up with these amazing names for everybody. And so, first, we were, you know, I little, I was a little amazed by it. I had seen it because I, you know, going to, I mean, this is, you know, I am about to bring American prisoners of war home. I mean, this is, the ultimate thing to do for the country. And yeah, he turned that down. Because, you know, he hates us so much. You know, I mean, so I had that early preview. But I quickly and everybody else too, you know, saw that, that the judge was actually our greatest asset in the trial, that he was so extreme and so prejudicial, that he actually, this became a part of the color of the whole thing. And, you know, and his, his last name was Hoffman and so then you have Abbie Hoffman, and so- SM: 1:08:40 Yes. RD: 1:08:40 -Abby was the illegitimate son of the judge, you know- SM: 1:08:44 [laughs] RD: 1:08:44 -of his story, but you know, I mean, we just made fun of it. And we, I mean, literally, we would sit around the table, and all kind of stamp our feet at the same time, like we had to go pee really, really bad. You know, and then the, and then Bill [last name], our attorney would stand up, and you know, and do this really humorous thing about, you know, nature calls and everything- SM: 1:09:11 [laughs] RD: 1:09:11 -and, you know, be very respectful and wonder if it might be possible that we could just take five-minute break now, and, and so the offenders could actually relieve themselves, you know. [laughter] And we would know, doing this that absolutely, it would be turned down. SM: 1:09:32 [laughs] Oh my goodness. RD: 1:09:34 That is-you know, we, we would do this just to basically make the point, you know, and so, so Judge Hoffman. I mean, the, this was kind of before reality TV, we became reality TV to especially not only, but certainly for the country, but especially for college students. I mean, I would go on to a college campus because of the time change between Chicago and the East coast, we get out at four, and, what was it? Four or four thirty, I forget, and then, you know, rush to the airport. And, by the time you got to, you know, Boston or New York or something like that, and got in a car and, you know, got to the place, you know, I mean, it was, it was nine o'clock, before you even started. And, you know, as you would, as, as people knew you were in the building, they would start to stamp their feet. And I, just greet [laughs] you know what I mean, a small turnout for me was five thousand people. And when the governor would call out the National Guard, because I was thinking that I would be, you know, that was 50 to 100,000 people, you were in the stadium. I mean, it was just phenomenal. And-and if I, I spoke with Abby, for example, you know, 25,000 people and an auditor, you know- an armory of some kind. SM: 1:11:09 Wow. RD: 1:11:12 It was really phenomenal, really. And, what will always amaze me was the, amount of knowledge that pretty much everybody had about the trial. And while my focus was stories of Vietnam, and what was happening in Vietnam, you know, we-we always started by just talking about what happened today, in the trial and it was like, it was just like reality TV, [laughs] everybody just hung on every single development that was going on. And that people would come to the trial. I mean, they would hitchhike across the country, and then, in get in line, like its eight at night, and then, you know, this is in, in the wintertime in Chicago. SM: 1:12:00 Oh my god. RD: 1:12:01 So, it was super cold, things, sleeping bags, and warm clothes, and they would camp out in the hope that they might actually be able to get into the trial itself. SM: 1:12:12 How many could get in? RD: 1:12:15 Oh, I do not, you know, was not that big? Really? I do not know how to say, I would probably, maybe, I do not know, you know, maybe 60 or 70 people, something like that. Yeah-yeah. SM: 1:12:32 You know, what was interesting also is, now were you all in prison when this happened? You had to come to you or are were you in, away from the courthouse every day that you came? RD: 1:12:46 Yeah, no, we were granted bail, which was amazing. Everybody except Bobby. Bobby was not, Bobby, you know, was way pending trial in Connecticut on murder. You know so you have, you have been charged with murder in Connecticut. And he was going to, Bobby did not get bail. Just to not let that hang. What happened was that there was a, a black panther person in, in, in the Connecticut in the New Haven chapter of the Black Panther Party was killed. And they basically, said that Bobby Seale ordered the murder. And so, Bobby was facing murder charges. And so, after the trial, after Bobby was severed from the trial, but you know, he has chained and gagged, and it got so intense that the judge finally just gave up and basically severed him from the trial with the idea that he would be retried again on his own. And so, Bobby then was sent to Connecticut to face murder charges. Now, Gary had finished his operation, and was back being his lawyer. And Gary and his team put together the evidence that actually was a federal government, undercover agent who had infiltrated the Black Panther Party, who had killed a member of the Black Panther Party- SM: 1:14:27 Wow. RD: 1:14:28 -and that agent went to jail for murder. That Bobby was free and clear, after all, the whole thing you know, it was really phenomenal piece of legal work, really. SM: 1:14:41 Randy, could-could you state exactly what the charges were against the right cause the people that will be hearing your voice will not know, they will know about the trial, but the reasons why you were put on trial and what was the reason, the final verdict of the trial? RD: 1:14:57 Yeah-yeah. So, when Martin Luther King was assassinated, the black community, you know, went up in rage in about 100 cities. And, the Republicans wanted to blame what was going on, on the leaders of the, of the civil rights and the movement in general. And so, they, a, a representative from representative Kramer from Florida, proposed a piece of legislation that made it a crime to use interstate facilities, which meant cross a state line with holding the intention, which was determined by what you said, or what you wrote, to incite a riot. And a riot was defined as assembly of three or more people, one of whom violated or threatened to violate a law. And there was no timeframe. So, in other words, you could come in and make a speech. And then a year later, three people standing on a street corner with clenched fists, you know, could be tied into your speech a year ago, and you could now be facing a felony for having the intention to incite that riot. So I mean, it was just the most egregious legislation probably in the history of America, in, in terms of free speech and civil rights, that you could imagine, on the opening day of our trial, one of the most impressive things was the, the number of extremely conservative constitutional attorneys who showed up on the opening day of the trial in protest of the, of the, of this law. And so, we were charged with violating the statute itself, crossing the state line with the intent to incite a riot. And we were also charged with conspiracy to incite a riot. So that meant that with a two count, we faced a maximum sentence of 10 years. Each one had five years. So, we would [silence] - cut off my thought there. [crosstalk] I would say that we were, that when the jury ended, the jury was basically divided pretty-pretty much along the same lines as the country as a whole, some, some people on the jury thought we were heroes, and some people thought we should be locked up and the key thrown away. So, the jury was deadlocked as a result. And when they said to the judge, they were deadlocked, unable to come to opinion, the jury had been sequestered for five and a half months. So, they had not seen their family. And the judge told them that, the government has spent so much money and so much time in this trial that they really could not deadlock, they have to make a decision. It was one of the items that reversed the decision in the appellate court. But it caused the jurors to believe that if they want to ever see their family, again, they had to come to a, a resolution of some kind. And so, all they knew to do was to compromise. And so, they found us guilty of the subsequent charge and innocent of the conspiracy. And so that meant that we face five years in jail, while the jury deliberated, we were we met with a judge who gave us contempt of court citations. I received an additional two and a half years of contempt of court, almost all of which was generated when I was on the witness stand. [laughs] So the you know, it was pretty hysterical and in the appellate court, most of us were amended, I mean in an appellate court, the, the substantive charge was thrown out. And which meant that the Justice Department could go back and try it again. But they had had enough of it. I mean, they were just beside themselves with, I mean what had happened with- mobilized the whole country. And so, they just decided not to go forward with it, on the, on the contempt of court, Bill Kunstler actually was found in contempt of court and, you know, he had received four years. This is our lawyer [laughter] four years of contempt of court, as the lawyer for the, for this incredible trial. You know he was, one of the most distinguished lawyers in the United States, and you know, he was, he was really, a beautiful lawyer, I would tell you that. So, but you know, technically, you know, he had said some things that were out of order. And so, they, stuck-stuck to what the law says about contempt of court. I was, all of my things were dismissed on the appellate court. So, so what that meant was that Bill had something on his record that, you know, he was cited for contempt of court, but then the judge, basically removed all punishments. He was not, he did not go to jail. He did not have anything else. But it was on his record as having contempt the court. I think he saw it as a badge of honor. You know, you did not really get deterred by it at all. So, nobody really, you know, went to jail from the Chicago. You know, we were first started, the Chicago eight, when Bobby Seale was, was severed from the trial, the media calls and says Chicago seven. That sort of is what stuck historically, the Chicago seven is just the name that media basically gives the defendants were all the Chicago eight, but the country calls us the Chicago seven. SM: 1:21:12 [laughs] Rennie when you think of that year 1968, and not just, going through that trial, being there and having that experience at the convention. Can you describe the year 1968 in all of its totality? We all know about the deaths of Bobby and Martin Luther King, Jr. RD: 1:22:08 Yeah. SM: 1:22:09 And certainly, [crosstalk] and then also, you know, Jean McCarthy kind of disappeared from the scene after Bobby dies. So, just-just your thoughts about, in 1968. And you know, that song that Chicago did, "The Whole World is Watching." RD: 1:22:24 Right. SM: 1:22:25 Every time I hear that and see that, you know, it was about the Chicago convention. Unnamed speaker: 1:22:31 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, it was a, kind of a time like no other, to be honest, maybe the present time that we were going to be seeing, you know, in the very near future here, you know, we will have, you know, will maybe be a return somewhat to the-the enormity of the protests. You know, you had Martin Luther King was assassinated in April of 1968. And, this was the, the convention in Chicago was in August of 1968. So, you can imagine, I mean, the country was just reeling from that assassination. It was just unbelievable, really, I mean it was just, I mean, yeah, you had riots in the black communities and probably other cities. But the, the mood in the country was so, I mean, it was just depressing, really, and overwhelming. It is, it is it is just, it is hard to explain it. I mean, he was just such an icon. And, you know, he was in our coalition, and, and he was a personal friend of mine. I first met him when I was a community organizer in Chicago, and he came to Chicago for an open housing march, and he was speaking at a, at a Baptist church and, in south Chicago and I decided to go and I, I wound up going through the men's room, and I was sitting at the urinal and, and he comes in, Martin Luther King comes in and just goes to the urinal next to me, and-and basically, you know, that is how we met, at the urinal. And it was really, it was really beautiful. I was explaining to him that, that we were, he was bathing and ready to do a march into Cicero, which was this white working class, really bigoted community. And I, told them that I was going to assist in bringing 1000 people from, who had migrated from Kentucky, West Virginia, Alabama, Mississippi, you know [chuckles] white people to his march and he just thought that was the funniest thing he had ever heard. SM: 1:24:58 [laughs] RD: 1:25:00 I do not think so, you know, and he said, so we-we, we had just a bunch of humor there, at the urinals, you know, I could explain it, you know, I would basically tell him to get ready to have your hair blown back- SM: 1:25:13 [laughs] RD: 1:25:13 -you know, his hair was real short. [laughs] Anyway, it was cool. You know, we, we were we were friends and he was in our coalition. He really was. Back at, in Chicago after he had been assassinated, he was the, it is was called the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. They had a project called "The Poor People's Campaign." And on the night of the nomination, which was Wednesday, August 28, 1968. The, he had the poor people's march came down to pass the Conrad Hilton, where many of the delegates were saying, you know, I mean, I am talking about a mule train with-with an asphalt tent and no cards, you know, people riding in the mule train, and, you know, it was, you know, and the and the mules and the people in the car, were-were gassed and clubbed. And, you know, right on, I mean, national television, I mean to give me an idea of more people watched the clubbing of the mule train. And on the night of the nomination of, you know, of Hubert Humphrey, then watch the first man landing on the moon. To give you an idea of the of the television audience that was just riveted to what was going on in Chicago. So then, basically, you know, then the, I guess the good news was that Jean McCarthy, a senator decided to run for president and oppose Lyndon Johnson. And he did not win. The first primary in those days was New Hampshire. He did not win New Hampshire, but he came in around 42 percent of the vote and, that was staggering. I mean, nobody expected that, and he was running strictly as an antiwar candidate. And so suddenly, the, everything changed. I mean, now there was a possibility of a candidate who could win the presidency as an antiwar candidate, and that reality caused Bobby Kennedy decide to enter the race. And so, then Bobby Kennedy suddenly appeared to be like the likely candidate for the Democratic Party. You know, he went to California, you won the California primary. And then that night, when he would had just won the primary, he was assassinated. And so, now you have got two icons in the country, you know, murdered- SM: 1:26:18 Wow. Right. RD: 1:27:43 -you know, for their position. I mean, it was just, I, you know, uh, you know, maybe just saying, that is all a person needs to understand. You could really imagine for yourself how incredibly impactful that was on social consciousness and the public in general. I mean, one of the most moving things of Mashable was, was the procession from New York, to, to Washington, D.C. by train to carry- SM: 1:28:31 Right. RD: 1:28:32 -Bobby Kennedy's coffin. You know, I mean, people just lined, the entire track, you know, from New York to Washington, with signs and it was very moving, it was really touched the country but it was also extremely depressing. So, this was just the background of everything that was building up to Chicago. In, in that summer, the trial itself began in, September of 1969. And then it went for five and a half months into January, exceed nine or 70. And then, and that basically, the Nixon, who basically kind of won on the idea that he was going to, end the war or, you know, look, you know, reduce the troops in the war, I mean, he basically tried to take an antiwar position himself, you know, one of the first things he did was to basically expand the war by invading Cambodia, and that is just set off. Students across the United States to Chicago seven actually call for a nationwide student strike. You know, I do not know the exact numbers but I would say close to 90 percent of every university and college in the United States closed down there. In response to that strike, and you know, you think about it, I mean, students today, it, you know, think about your whole school going out on strike, you know, a political issue, you know, I mean, some, some of the schools would say, "No, well that could not happen here," you know, but go-go check your own records. [crosstalk] The chances are pretty good that the very university or college that you are in, actually did close down on, in the spring of 1970. It was a phenomenal thing, and then, you know, then you had, you know, songs coming out that went right to number one. On the bestselling list, you know, that were basically explaining what was happening, you know, in Chicago and the students strike. I mean, I mean, the whole culture, just totally galvanized around the student movement and the antiwar movement. It was, it was one of the most impactful things ever to happen. I mean, the idea that there could be an antiwar movement in the United States is, was unheard of, but much less the fact. I mean, here, here is a statistic, that is interesting, Gallup Poll comes out and polls the country as to whether they support the war in Vietnam or not, two weeks before the Chicago demonstration. And a majority of the United States population supports the war in Vietnam, two weeks before Chicago. Two weeks after Chicago, the same Gallup Poll does another poll, and a majority of the country now oppose the war in Vietnam- SM: 1:30:23 Right. Wow. RD: 1:31:47 -shifted the entire country, you know, it was really remarkable. SM: 1:31:51 Rennie, how many more years after, say, 1969, after the tribe, were you involved as an activist? I know, I want you to at least mention your major involvement with a moratorium I believe in 1969. And, going into the (19)70s, but at what point did your activism end? And, and, and also make a comment on when you thought that 1960s ended. But- basically- RD: 1:32:21 Okay. SM: 1:32:22 -your, your, your rest of your activism. RD: 1:32:27 So, I would say, one of the things that we discovered which climate change will, is kind of in this category two, people really do not understand, even on college campuses, the, that the consequences of how humanity lives on the planet, are-are going to be sweeping into our own lives in the very near future. We are going to basically, everybody is going to be affected. And yes, you still have people that want to deny the science, but that is about to change. So, one, one of the things that we I mean, it is the same thing with Vietnam. I mean, we-we knew how horrific the war was. But, we did not understand that. I mean, you know, when there is a war, you support your country and a war. And so, we had the, you know, we had the same issue ourselves, we, how do we, how do we bring people along to understand the facts of the war, you know, so we had something called a teach in. And there were lots of them. And it just went on and on and on. And, you know, having been to Vietnam myself, made me a favorite speaker, because I could tell stories about real people and, you know, weapons that were used, that were perhaps develop by the University, where I am speaking and what these weapons did, how they were conceived, the, their antipersonnel nature and things like that. So, the movement, so to speak, culminated in the moratorium where basically just, you know, it was just activities, but largely around educating ourselves about the issues and the war in Vietnam. And so, by that time, we had really won over most students in, in the country by 1969. Then basically comes to the students' strike, which was pretty breathtaking. I mean, we had American G.I.'s who were our age in Vietnam, deserted their posts in Vietnam. If you tried to organize a military parade, anywhere in the United States. In the spring of 1970, you-you really was virtually impossible to do that, because of the opposition of G.I., not-not antiwar students now, the G.I.'s themselves would block the parades and I mean, threatened mutiny, and that was inside the United States, it was just unheard of that you could get such opposition of the ranks of the military it, itself. So, but what happened was that it was such a blowout of them that, at that is, in the summer of-of 1970, there was just a sense that what more can we do? I mean, there was not a, you know, we-we were very steeped in nonviolence. And there was no, I mean, there was there were some that would say, let us just revolt, you know, but, but that was not the position of the movement or the coalition. So, it was just sort of a letdown. So, in the, in the fall of, of 1970, you could, you know, you call a meeting of SDS or the antiwar movement, and kind of nobody showed up. It just, it just feels the energy just went out, people were depressed, but what more can we do? In the meantime, I was reading reports from French scientists and Vietnamese scientists that there was a genetic mutation that was occurring, that would potentially could, could annihilate the Vietnamese. I mean, it was it was, it was, you know, we-we actually see it today and thousands and thousands of people who are born deformed, or, you know, cannot breathe or, you know, their, their head is misshaped, you know, because of the, of the chemicals that were used in Vietnam. I mean, it was just, you know, and we did not know how severe was going to be. I mean, it turned out to be pretty severe. So, I felt like what we had to do was not calm down, but to actually increase the pressure, and that it was time to move towards large scale nonviolent civil disobedience in Washington. So, I went to the coalition in the fall of 19, I guess 1970 and made the proposition that we should do a mass mobilization with large scale civil disobedience in Washington, D.C., and the concept was that we would actually close the government down nonviolently, you know, if there if the government in the United States does not stop the war in Vietnam, then we will stop the government of the United States. That was that was the message, you know. Well, it was not the coalition had a problem with civil disobedience if done appropriately. But, no one believed it was possible. So it was just, you know, so there was a sense that the movement was over, right, then, you know, going into the (19)70s, you know, the fall of 1970, I would say, the, I mean, even Time magazine came out with a cover story called " The Cooling of America." And it was just the sense that things were over. So, I did not really know, but I did not buy it. And so, I decided on my own to go test the waters. So, I think my first stop was Syracuse University. And, you know, the-the, the organizers that sponsored me to speak there, were, you know, were pretty depressed, really, they-they did not think there would be much of a turnout. But, you know, everybody was still there. And everybody was curious about what was happening. And so, I walked into an auditorium there 5000 people in the room. And so, I-I just laid out the whole picture of what was happening in Vietnam and, and, you know, this genetic damage that was occurring and, and-and you know, ended with the government does not stop the war we will stop the government, you know, and it was, it was really, it was rather remarkable when you could hear a pin drop [inaudible]. At the end, it was just, it was, you know, I do not know, you know, people were just beside themselves, you know, everyone is on fire, you know, standing, cheering, screaming, standing up, [inaudible]. It was, and so right then I knew it was possible to do it. And so, I knew take a little while so I just went on the road and started speaking every day, sometimes twice a day. And, eventually the coalition figured it out what was happening. And they, you know, they, they joined forces, in the end, but I-I had a woman that, you know, donate some money. And I had a neighbor, a neighbor, a neighbor across the street, he was kind of a cop unite. I basically got in office, and they answered phones, and you know, I just kind of did it on my own for a little while, the coalition finally came together and stepped in and brought their capacity to the table. And I just continued to speak on the opening day of our event, there was three main events. This was now the spring of 1971. There were 250,000 people at the Capitol. And hope so we you know, and then basically, over 1000 Vietnam veterans turn their-their badges and their certificates of military service, you know, back to Congress, you know, and-and incredible protests of-of veterans. And then from there- SM: 1:39:35 Wow. Unnamed speaker: 1:39:44 Are we good? I have a coaching call. [inaudible] RD: 1:41:11 Oh, I could go out, hold on, Steven I am going to move my location. SM: 1:41:33 Okay, thank you. RD: 1:41:38 Yeah. So, the second part was the Vietnam Veterans part. And then they came the time when everybody who was ready to be arrested, assembled, and I, I set out to speak, and, I mean, [chuckles] oh, my God, it-it really, I really found myself pretty speechless. I mean, there were 100,000 people ready to be arrested. And this was, we call it the May Day, you know, that. It is, you know, turned into the largest arrests in American history, our, you know, our logistics, we were so excited that we could not, no one could sleep. So, we got out of the roads and bridges, you know, I mean, you did not follow protocol. Everybody got out there too early. And, so there were lots of residents moving us out of the city and stuff like that. And, we were criticized because we did not close the government doubt, you know, too much, a little bit. But, you know, it had a huge impact on the country. And, you know, the whole military of the country would mobilize them, the entire east coast. Marines landed, you know, on the Washington ball. There was a Washington Post reporter who felt that this part of history kind of slipped away. And so, you just completed a book on all the, you know, I have not seen the book. So, I do not know how it will be but, you know he seemed like a legitimate recorder. In trying to, what really happened with May Day, you know, it was really pretty spectacular. A lot of historians know that it was really what caused Nixon to kind of give it up and at least go in and sign the Paris Peace Accords, you know, in 1973. SM: 1:43:38 Right. RD: 1:43:39 So, so I am trying to answer your question when did the movement stop, you know. It, it sorts of, it sorts of looked like it stopped after the student strike. Then we revised ourselves and came back with May Day, and so it was still going now, though, really over. There was no question about it now. But then at that point, I was, I was watching television and I saw John and Yoko in a, hotel bedroom, you know, declaring themselves to be you know, sit in a bed in for peace or something. You know, as I listened to John talk, I realized that this guy wants to be one of us. You know, I mean, he was really laying it out. And so, so once it was too long before I found myself in his apartment in lower Manhattan, and, as we got acquainted, I decided to make a proposal to him which was, let us tour the country the two of us, I will bring the speakers you bring the musicians, we will go to 42 cities and end up at the Republican convention in San Diego with a million people. And absolutely bring us word when asked. And he said, "I am in, let us do it." Like, beach love to that. There was a laugh. There was a last hurrah. [laughs] You know what happened was we went to Ann Arbor aa=s our first place. We had a venue, I do not know, 20 or 25,000 people indoors. Tickets sold out in 45 minutes, so I thought that was a good sign. We had a guest entertainer that even, even John did not know was coming. His name was Stevie Wonder. SM: 1:45:51 Wow. RD: 1:45:51 We had, got he was focused, each-each, each venue was going to focus on a particular issue. And so, the first issue was political prisoners in the United States, as John Sinclair, who was a friend of mine, was in jail, he went to an art party. And somebody, a woman asked him, though, if he had a marijuana joint, so he rolled one, and she wanted another one. And so, he, he gave her two joints to take it out. And it turned out, she was an undercover police agent. And so, the long and short of it was he, he went to jail was in prison for 10 years for two marijuana joints. And so, he became our first focus. So, that we yeah, so I got John on the phone from prison, talking into the arena, to you know, 25,000 screaming people. And it was a very moving story. I mean, you know, he really cared about his wife and his two children. And it was very touching emotional thing. I spoke after John spoke on the phone. And so, I do not know, it was probably a little bit over the top for me, but I, I basically proposed a civil disobedience is dead in Detroit, it was - we closed down the city of Detroit. [laughs] If John was not released from prison in two weeks. [laughter] SM: 1:47:36 I interviewed, I interviewed John. RD: 1:47:39 Oh, good. Okay. SM: 1:47:40 I interviewed him about- RD: 1:47:41 Anyway. So, you know, so the thing happened is that he-he was with me with that, and he never went back either. It was really rather after having been denied three appeals, the-the threat of what we I mean, we were still in a very formidable however, that was the last straw for the Nixon administration. And so, they basically started deportation proceedings against John Lennon. And, and at that point, John basically just got surrounded by lawyers and, you know, went into a legal fight to stay in the country. So that, that to me was the-the official, kind of culmination of the, you know of the movement right there. SM: 1:47:46 -continue. RD: 1:47:51 Now, [crosstalk] did you finish your concerts of the 42 cities? No, I would say we did the first one. And then John was yanked out by the, by the justice. So, we never we never did our tour. I mean we did the first one but that was it. SM: 1:48:59 You know, it is interesting. You are commenting about the same timeframe. It is some of the people I interviewed, interviewed out on the West Coast, thought that the end of the (19)60s came when people started going to the communes, you know, the whole communal movement and everything- RD: 1:49:15 Right, yeah. SM: 1:49:16 -dropping out and, and then, and then the radicalization of the weathermen and how they kind of start doing violence and SDS basically ended. So, a lot of things were happening around that particular timeframe. RD: 1:49:33 Yeah, you know, I would be I would be inclined to have a little more precision about it. You know, I would say the, the weathermen event really started in after Chicago, more into 1969 but it-it quickly went underground and it-it did not really get-get much traction fortunately, you know, I felt it was a, you know, it was really a, I mean, that would be the quickest way to end a large public movement, to basically to start to move towards violence, you know, you are going to lose just about everybody, you know, with that. So, I do not think the weathermen, you know, there was a deterioration of things, that is for sure. The weathermen was a part of it. I went to the second Nixon inauguration, in (19)72 in Florida, and, you know, things were really kind of over at that point. I mean, we had like 10,000 people turnouts, I decided to do a 42-day water fast, to kind of bring a moral quality to it, you know. And it, it ended in a tear gas battle. It, you know, I do not know, you know, so things were, I think, you know, when I think of a movement, I think the ability to generate large public events where people come together, but you know, after that, you know, so for me, the last, that event was with John Lennon, you know, in Ann Arbor after that, there were certain things that went on, and there was a transition. You know, a lot a lot. I mean, I would put myself in this category, there were people that were, you know, things were winding down. And there was a sense of moving into, you know, communes is one expression, meditation was another, I mean, the Beatles, quite some time ago, went off to learn a meditation in India, transcendental meditation. When the Paris Peace Accords, were signed in 1973, I, I was invited by Madame Bing to be a part of that ceremony. And so, I decided to go and so I flew to Paris, and on the plane was a former roommate of mine who was married into the Eli Lilly family, so he had funds. And he was on his way to India. So, he offered to basically, you know, pay my way, and-and why do not we go and explain what he was going to do. He was going to go see spiritual snafus. And that I know, it sounded good to me, you know [chuckles] I thought the war was [inaudible] I did not know what, that is what I thought at the time. So, you know, and then I wound up, you know, learning a meditation there, that where I had, you know, kind of a powerful internal experience, which was completely unexpected. And so, spent some time you know, in in that world, and, you know, meditation, communes, were moving into nature and, you know, learning a lot, a lot of issues about sustainability. You know, farming and that sort of thing. And, I mean, there was, there was definitely a trend, a very slow boat back to society, that that culminated in quiet time, meditation for some people, communes for quite a few people. You know, it was all a transition back to society in a way, you know. [chuckles] So however you want to look at it, I, you know, the movement with the ability to generate large public events, I think, ended in Ann Arbor, but there was certainly a long transition, you know, back to so called society that went on for a couple of years really after that. SM: 1:54:10 What, what did you become linked to a religious leader at one time? I think you did, did not you? RD: 1:54:16 Well, that was, that was what happened to me, I mean it was a little bizarre, really, I did not see myself as having any interest in a guru. But there was this teacher in India that we visited, and we went to several ashrams and the one that I visited, there were all these people that knew me, who were doing this meditation, it was total, the, the, the argument was, you should try it and then and then decide, you know, you get your own evidence [inaudible], ad so, so I decided, okay, well, I will try it, you know, the one of the, one of the techniques was to create light in yourself, in your body and your, you know, you see it kind of in your skull. But for me, it was like my, you know, it was it was not like I am the only one pascal talked about this experience. Walt Whitman had this experience, or you know, there you see it in history, there is a, there is a place where, you know, a light goes on inside yourself, and it is hard to defend it or say what it is, but it is very altering. I mean it, it gets your attention, that is for sure. And so that is, that happened to me. And so, I kind of bought into a bit of a religion, I would say, for a short period of time, you know, I-I felt drawn to continue the meditation. And the teacher wanted to do an event at the, at the astro- Astrodome in Houston. And so, he asked me to organize that event. [chuckles] And so, the lobby that gave me some letters associated with their whole room, you know. We filled the Astrodome though with it. And, and I spoke at that event myself, before. But I do not know, it did not, it did not last that long. You know, I mean, I kind of, you know, I am, I am still an internal person today, and I-I have a lot of, you know, my own understandings about it, but I-I would not, you know, I would not be a teacher myself or follow a teacher, you know, I mean, it just, it was, it was a different world for me. So, but there was a period that shows up in my resume now. [laughs] [crosstalk] For a while, you know. SM: 1:57:04 Yeah, were you? Were you - where did you get a lot of criticism, this really a national activist leader, going kind of dropping out, so to speak? Did you get criticism? RD: 1:57:07 I-I Yeah, I-I did. You know, it was difficult. I mean, like, right now, people who are critical then, that they all are, they all have no problem at all with meditation, yoga, you know, I mean, it is, it is sort of but, but I was so associated with the political side of, of making change, you know, through a movement that, I mean, even Tom Hayden, who is my dearest friend, you know, just, I mean, he was just so perplexed. SM: 1:57:56 Yes. RD: 1:57:56 It was a little bit like Eldridge Cleaver, I mean you know, it was like a key person of Black Panther Party, suddenly, suddenly became a Christian. It was like, what, it just, it just shocked people to the core, you know, like, "How can this be," you know. SM: 1:58:08 [laughs] [laughs] RD: 1:58:16 I am not saying that, you know, I was a Christian. I was not but, you know, I guess there was a parallel there, you know, you know, to step from politics and a movement leader into anything has to do with quiet, spiritual reflection, you know, like, "What are you talking about?" You know, but, essentially, it was a quiet revolution at the end of the (19)60s. And if you look today, the number of there are many, many, I mean, many people, it has gone pretty mainstream. Really, I mean, just, you know, the self-help. You know, be, be here now, you know. Quantum thinking, you know, let us not be so brain shatter and let, it knowingness, come in, you know things like that, you know, it is not so unconventional. I mean, the (19)60s really led to supporting that kind of thinking, and-and it is a broad-based thing, it is a little more quiet, but it is still a broad based thing that actually does exist today. SM: 1:58:59 Right. You know what is interesting. I had a poster hanging on my wall. I was at Ohio State. It was a Peter Max poster, it was kind of like the artist of the (19)60s. And I will never forget the slogan. The slogan was, "If you, you do your thing and I will do mine if by chance we get should come together that will be beautiful," [laughs] RD: 1:59:45 Right. [chuckles] SM: 1:59:49 And I, now I regret saying goodbye to that poster many years back. If you had anything to do over again, Rennie, what would you change if anything? RD: 2:00:03 Change, I do not know that I would say, really all that much. I do not really have a lot of, I mean, even, even though as the grim arise thing, with the meditation. I mean, it is, it is certainly not who I am today. And, and there is, there is things that I did in the (19)60s that I am not today, but that for me, personally, I feel like everything, led me to today. And I like where I am today, I really am, you know, I feel there is, there is a profoundness in the world that that has to do with my own awareness of myself. And I am, I am not, I am happy with my understanding, even though I am still so immature and early stage in terms of where it can go. But I am, I am learning to quiet the brain and access the mind. And I think that is actually going to be the great transition for the future of humanity, the mind is not the same as the brain. Contrary to popular opinion, I mean, the brain is located in the skull, but there is an electrical field that comes off of the skin organ, that is where the mind is located. And being, learning how to access the mind, gives you a, a tool that is just pretty breathtaking. Really, I mean, you can you get to see every single component in an issue, that does it takes everything into account in the way of the brain cannot begin to imagine. And, and it is, it is just, it is just a different way of being. And so, the (19)60s into kind of this transition, the what I call the, "Quiet Revolution" like communes, the meditations, that is whatever, you know, as for me, kind of brought me you know, into being in the world, being practical about things. I mean, I had a successful business career, I then, I, I visited the Grand Canyon, in in the middle of the 1990s. For a little five-day tour, I fell in love with the canyon, and I wound up basically living in the bottom of the Grand Canyon for close to four years. SM: 2:02:43 Wow. RD: 2:02:44 I would come out to get supplies and things like that. But, you know, I-I learned I do not know if you have ever tried to do this, but it is, you know, if you if you basically are quiet, and do not talk to anybody, you are just by yourself in nature for say 12 days. For real, you know, it is a pretty life changing event- SM: 2:03:10 Wow. RD: 2:03:10 -to do something like that, over years, you know, months at a time without talking to anybody you know, in nature is, though, it really changes a lot, you know, so I have had that experience too. And it is, it is, it is probably the richest thing I have ever done really, you know, it has given me abilities that are, you know, I-I have discovered I have 14 senses not five. I have sonar, I have radar, I have, you know, telepathic abilities, you know, every human being has it, but it is just not something we have, we have developed. And so, so, you know, right now I feel more alive and more. I do not know, you know, I just feel I feel good where I am. And I feel like everything I have ever done has brought me to this moment. So, I, I do not really feel critical of anything in my life. SM: 2:04:13 You are evolving. You are always evolving and, your business career. Just a few words. What was that business career all about? RD: 2:04:22 Well, we it was a, service series of good fortunes, really, we, you know, we did not I mean, my dad was an economist, and I, you know, I studied economics and I had some sense of finance, I guess, you know, so we just, you know, I would partner up with a person who and we had a team of people and we were, we were pretty confident, we learned fast. And we were able to start as consultants and to [inaudible] why we are a little miniature Booz Allen, meaning a full service, management consulting company, we-we kind of just put up our, our single was we, we will do anything. And then we would spend, stay up all night and learn a subject when we, if got us, got into science, so it was kind of like that. I headed up a financial planning component in the company. We also had the Human Resources executive search, you know, we had Mobil Oil, and we were the finest executive search term i their corporate experience. And I was the financial planner for the board of directors of Gates Rubber Company, the president of Manville Corporation, president of HBO, you know, People and the Forbes 400 Riches. You know, I had quite a prestigious clientele, we wound up acquiring 80 acres stayed in Evergreen, that, you know, the main home with golden stone on a cliff. You know, we had our own helicopter, you know- -we were successful, you know, in business. And, then then basically, we had a, we were trying to form a national securities company, and take technologies that we were acquiring through inventors, and take them into a public company. And, the- are-are investor, was basically was closing a deal with Texaco, which was triple A rated, and no one knew that Texaco was about to go chapter 11. Because of a loss, with Pennzoil, so it kind of came out of nowhere, and suddenly, we lost our investor, and we had borrowed money on the estate, to make an initial move, you know, and so we were, we were thrown into chapter 11, for three years. And, you know we, we organize 2 public companies, while a chapter 11 kind of dug herself out, got people whole, pretty much. And, and then basically, I, it was then that I decided to take some time out and go to the Grand Canyon. So, then I just dropped out. I mean, I did not, I really left this [inaudible] went into a quiet space. So, I do not know what to say the business was a rich experience. But I mean, I learned a lot about business. We were so called successful for 10 years. [laughs] SM: 2:06:09 Wow. Wow that is good. RD: 2:07:48 Another, another life experience that [inaudible]. SM: 2:07:51 Yeah, I know. It leads into a question, what are the, what are your greatest accomplishments in life? What are you most proud of? RD: 2:08:01 Well, I am certainly, pleased with what I did in the (19)60s. You know, I-I do not see myself as drawn to being a public personality, or, you know, that, that part of it just, you know, helped me do what I wanted to do, you know, what I wanted to do, honestly, was, was to make the world a better place, and civil rights was the first leg of that and, and ending the war in Vietnam was, was the second. And so, it was, it was gratifying to see an entire generation mobilize around, you know, a principal position, you know, and really, actually make a difference. I mean, there was lots of ways to criticize what happened and how we fell short and whatever. But, you know, to be in the middle of something like that it was a phenomenon really, one of the rarest moments in, in American history. I mean, movements have happened before. And, but they were rare. And but when- SM: 2:09:12 Wow. RD: 2:09:12 -they happen they are, I mean the Renaissance change, the feudal order, and the (19)60s, really had a big impact on things. So, you know, I was, I am pleased to be, to have been a part, part of that. I would say now I am, I am curious about how the human race can survive and have a future at all. I think that climate change issue is far more severe than, than people that are in climate change really understand. It, I am, I am all for human beings rising to the occasion and try to change the outcome but you know I, I have such an understanding of it that, I do not really I do not really think that is what is going to happen, I do not think we are going to change the outcome, I think we are going to basically go through a chase, like, just unimaginable, what is about to happen. Whether it be any human being at all on the planet, will would be a more, you know, a clear question, I think. SM: 2:09:55 I agree. RD: 2:10:01 And I think it is possible with evolution. And, and that is, that is what I am interested in. It is not, it is not easy, you know, to change your awareness. I do not know, if you have ever tried to change anything in yourself. It is very formidable to do it. But you know, what I have been doing is creating, a more simple way to take a, a body of understanding new to the world and make it available to people who want to do it. You know, I mean, take something like check egos, we could all say, "Yeah, let us, let us check egos in the human race." But the fact is, that there is not a psychologist, or a psychiatrist, or a scientist, or anybody that I am aware of, that can even tell you what an ego is, or how many we have, or where they are located, or how to find them because they hide, or how to edit in ego, I mean, actually do it, you know. And so, what I have been able to do is to, answer that question in detail. And then create a system, where a group of people where a person could do it, and, and have tools for how to do it. So, we have a little system where basically you, you pick a card for the day. And there is a one page write up on that card, and then you take the understanding on the write up into your day. And it is, and there is lots of practices that go with it, all of which are new to the world, and no one has ever heard of any of them. And we, we work with small groups of people. And we just watch people change right before our eyes. I mean, it is certainly not overnight. It is really, people are doing it. And so, I feel like, at the end of the day, that will probably be my own legacy, not what I did in the (19)60s at all. But actually, how could the human race have its future by changing itself? SM: 2:12:37 That is excellent, because that leads right into the next question, which is, if down the road long after you and I, and all of our peers are long gone. What would you hope people would say about you, Rennie? RD: 2:12:52 Yeah, well, I do not really have any personal identity that I need to be remembered I am, I am not really quite there. But, I would love to see the human race, step into a deeper understanding of how the world works. So, I would say that here is what humanity thinks. It works right now, the world outside myself is real, it is solid. And it is certainly independent of myself. I mean, everybody knows bad things happen for no reason at all. And if one thing does not get me something else will. And-and, and so there is that that is kind of how we see the world. The way I see the world, which I am confident is actually the physics of our reality, not a philosophy or anything, you know, a belief system, but actually, the way it works is a world as a hall of mirrors, reflecting back to each person their own thoughts and perceptions. And that no one is doing anything to you. No one has ever done anything to you, everything that you are experiencing, including poor me, victim, you know, martyr, everything that is going down has its origin and about 50,000 thoughts across your own brain every 24 hours. And so, the, the, the world is a reflection of how you see yourself. So, learning how to, how the world actually works, and the need to point the finger and blame anybody for your own conditions. You can take create your own reality within the larger reality. You can walk out of the prison of the entire human condition. You, you could take back your life with a note how, but it is not a note how that is found in any tradition or any New Age practice or any religion or anything that presently exists, something completely new to human understanding is required to change your, to fundamentally evolve. But it is, it is still part of our-our makeup. I mean, it is what I am talking about is actually found in our genetics, though the uncovering of the genetics is one of the great, great discoveries of all time, they, you know, we want we want to know, I mean, did the price story really happen as described in the Bible or Mohammed story, or the Buddhist story, or all these perfect masters or, or any story, you know it does not have to be religion, anything at all, every single claim that is ever happened is recorded in our own genetics down to the tiniest detail, and learning, to understand the great treasure trove inside ourselves is, is just is the ultimate liberation for the human race. If you know, it, just it is a complete, you know, I call it a new [inaudible], but it is a, this transformed everything to do this. And so, what I am hoping to do is to leave a legacy of how to do this. You know, before I go. SM: 2:16:27 Well, that is beautifully said Rennie, and I remember I had a conversation with Tom Hayden, when he came to Westchester University several years ago. And he met with students, he met with student leaders, and Tom asked them, "Do you really have power in your student leadership positions," and they said, "Oh, yes, we do. We control the budgets, we control how much each organization gets, we get pointed on certain committees." And I saw, and I looked over at Tom and Tom was eyes were rolling. RD: 2:16:58 [laughs] SM: 2:17:01 That is not power. And when he did not, he did not any finally, and these were the leaders of student government. And he said, "I am not talking about power. I am talking about empowerment, have you ever heard of it?" [laughs] And he went into a long oration about the fact that the students of the (19)60s, the people like you and others who got involved in activities to make this world better for others, were empowered to do it. And, your thoughts on the difference between power and empowerment? Because Tom knew exactly what they were and those students that he tried to communicate with did not. RD: 2:17:44 Yeah, no, I am, I am with that I really am, I would say that. You know, in my language, I would say awareness is when I am interested in you know, evolution to me is a, is a, is a transition to various stages, the first stage is to wake up, human beings came from a material that had no awareness at all, and we have woken up, we, we are awake. And after we wake up, we then go into aware, and then after aware, we can become conscious after conscious intelligence. And after intelligence, supreme intelligence, so you could call that whole thing empowerment if you would like. Human beings on average, everywhere in the world, I would put it about 5 to 6 percent awake right now. So, the bullet I am working with are, are beginning to get up around 75 percent awake, and that gives them a window into aware, I mean an unaware person, you know, if some, if you were aware, and somebody kicked, just walked by you and they had a certain outward demeanor, you-you would know inside yourself, all of those internal belief systems of that person that has created their external behavior. I mean it is just a participant nominal, you know, you would have not 5 senses, but 14 senses would be activated, including sonar in the hair follicles of the ear, radar in the forehead. There is a sensory perception in your hair, there is airborne, hormones that come up with a skin that connect with other people all the way around the world. If you want anywhere you put your direction, massive data can flow back and forth between those circuits. This, this is the future of humanity. This is where we are going, if we survive, you know, so anyway, you know, I am more interested in creating a system that could help people stepped into a completely new world of understanding where they no matter even if they are surrounded by fear and a stereo. They are, they are still in their beauty they, they can create their own reality unaffected by the stereo of the world. SM: 2:20:46 I only got a few more questions. And then we done I just have a question here, just a general one. But in your definition, what is a leader? RD: 2:20:53 [chuckles] Well, in my definition, a leader is someone who could listen, leader is, is someone who walks or talk. A leader is not someone who berates, who, who creates fear, who basically, you know, is-is self-absorbed, in-in their own egos. I mean, that is sort of how leaders are defined today, for the most part, but-but leadership might not ever even be seen, you know, it just I know, people who are leaders who-who are completely unknown, but when they walk into a room, they just exude a beauty. And, and their-their, the way they respect. And-and, and the way they, what they, what they send off of themselves, feels nourishing to anybody around them. And so, so my, my view of leadership is this, so much in the current base of condition, but more in a future state that I call the new humanity. There is a, another stage of awareness, where leadership, which is inspiration, the ability to listen, you know, so the leader would basically go where they are invited not where they feel like, you know, this person is not doing it right and I need to fix them, you know. The leader understands that the only law in this reality is the law of free will. Everyone has the right to choose their own journey to evolve or not, there is no right or wrong. And so, a leader really has moved from the stage of judgment, "I am right, you are wrong," to the stage of unconditional respect. SM: 2:23:07 It is wonderful, Rennie, that is beautiful. I think I am, I am going to challenge you on one thing you said and that is, that-that you do not care if the world knows about you years from now? Well, I do. And that is- -what the that is what these interviews are about. And I am making sure that this university that I am getting bound in here protects these interviews and gives them the respect they deserve. Because the people that I picked to be interviewed, are very important to me. And they are very important, I think, to future generations. And so, at the point, the point of doing this, that is, you should have, and I am going to my last question is going to be this. And it just kind of maybe a convoluted a roundabout way, but the Age of Aquarius, which we all know, that fifth-dimension song, the fifth-dimension song, with so much hope, so much possibility that the spirit of those times ends in failure. And if so, why? We still have war, we still have hate, we still see massive divisions between our races and different political groups ongoing historic hatred between countries and people. War is never ending. It is just history repeating itself over and over and over again. And why, for one brief moment, the 1960s and (19)70s there was a chance to correct this course, but like all times did we fail? Your response. RD: 2:23:24 [laughs] Yeah, no, I do not think there was a failure. I think I am a bit metaphysical on movements. You know, there is I-I have a view of people existing before they are born, and you a, a group of people coming into the world, to pick on a certain mission at a particular time, I view the Renaissance, as, you know, the feudal order was pretty brutal time. And, and then the Renaissance appeared, out seemingly out of nowhere. And it rewrote, you know, the possibilities for, you know, 1000 years. I mean, it really had a big impact the human race, the American Revolution was similar. People came in to do that experiment. And, yeah, it was, it failed and went off in many areas, and so forth. But the fact is, is that it-it did create something for a while. And the (19)60s certainly in my view, falls into that category too; a group of people came in with-with a mission. Now we are in the present time and I see the same thing occurring. The half the world's population today is 25 years of age or younger. And so, there is there, there are a group of people that, right now that are going to rise to the occasion apply to climate change. And, and the other interrelated issues that are threatening life on the Earth, they actually can see the condition that they are in, they-they know that our oceans are dying, or rainforests are in peril, humanity has exceeded its global limit on the planet, they were not in the delusion that, that this can just go on and on and on, there is no end to it, it never stops. You know, that is just not where it is, is Arnold Toynbee has talked about this extensively, you know, how he studied civilizations that collapse, and every single one of them believes everything is fine, right to the end. It is always that way, but there is always a group of people see it coming, and typically become the seeds for the next generation. Now, whether when this can happen, or how, you know, I understand how it could happen, but when I do not know, what actually we it needs to occur, is to go from 5 percent awake to fully awake. I know, that is not easy to explain what I mean by that, but it is a, you know, we need to change our awareness, and is not done by basically how we vote, or, or, or, you know, getting other people to change, most movements that out, they want to change that. So, the movement that will ultimately succeed, is the movement that wants to change yourself, you know, get over trying to change that, let them be, let them be them. But what we need is an example, in the world of a new stage of awareness, And it is not, it is not just, it is not just simple words, like, "Let us be in respect," you know, "Let us be civil," all of that is fine, but an awareness of how the world works, and how actually, you could make decisions with a mind instead of the brain. And I mean, there is so, you know, under real, discovering the human body, what is it is capabilities are, it is the most advanced thing in creation, you know, I mean, we-we have, we have talents and abilities that we have no idea what they are. And so, a new stage of awareness is the only way that the human race is going to get off of this broken cycle. You know, let us, let us do war. Let us do peace. Let us do war. Let us do, you know, just on and on, endless conflicts, the endless suffering. I am a victim here, you know, it is just, it, it will never stop until we change your awareness. And awareness will never happen until a group of people create a pathway into a new stage of awareness that others can follow. So, that to me is going to be the big step, a group of human beings who become a new humanity and really do it themselves. And-and basically, if you could create abundance and joy, a life of respect, and magic where everything flowed, and life was not stressful, hurtful, life was not like a series of whatever will go wrong always goes wrong when you know, it is just, you know you get control of your thoughts is what it is. And that is really quiet I mean, it is, it is hard to even imagine that I mean, become aware of yourself, not aware of everybody else around you, is a, is a, just so radical thing you know. So, a group of people like a pioneer that avenue that direction, for me is going to be the hope of the human race. SM: 2:30:34 Very well said. And I will close with this. Is there any question that you thought I was going to ask that I did not ask? RD: 2:30:41 No, you are completely exhausted. And I think you have asked every possible question imaginable. [laughter] SM: 2:30:49 Well Rennie, we will be in touch for sure. And now again, thank you very much. Before we hang up, I am going to turn the tape off here. Thank you very much and, thanks. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rennie Davis 2 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ce25ac87ab7465e34e83ec5c69301352.MP3 4473112a544a72a8e57fea58b0faf9da Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Middle Eastern Oral History Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews of Middle Eastern immigrants who settled in the Binghamton area. Since the rise of nationalism and the repression of minorities during the last phase of the Ottoman Empire, the ethnic groups in the Middle East have faced physical pressure and violence, cultural assimilation, and ethnic cleansing in the nation-states they lived in, which made them to leave their homeland behind and settle throughout the United States. This project looks at the details about the impact of diaspora. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview October 15, 2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Joseph Seif Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ruby Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 44:32 minutes Biographical Text Ruby was born in Jordan's Capital city of Amman. She moved a lot throughout Jordan since her father held a high ranking position in the Jordanian military. She came to the U.S. to work on her Ph.D. in computer science and converted from Islam to Christianity Keywords Religion, Amman, Jordan, Binghamton University, Israel/Palestine, Jordanian military, Christianity, Islam Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ruby https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/598cb143fac6288490ecfacd5b000bc7.jpeg 98565e5e19aaafd1d4f6ec101af44f04 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b8e07008b1bc9668ee3a937d169950fd.mp3 675a300d6f9546c613ab4decd628cfb9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Middle Eastern Oral History Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews of Middle Eastern immigrants who settled in the Binghamton area. Since the rise of nationalism and the repression of minorities during the last phase of the Ottoman Empire, the ethnic groups in the Middle East have faced physical pressure and violence, cultural assimilation, and ethnic cleansing in the nation-states they lived in, which made them to leave their homeland behind and settle throughout the United States. This project looks at the details about the impact of diaspora. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview August 27, 2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Joseph Seif Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rawan Shabbar Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 54:32 minutes Biographical Text Rawan was born in Irbid, Jordan. She lived in Oman throughout her early childhood and moved to Saudi Arabia for school. She continued her education in her hometown in Jordan and received a scholarship to finish her Master's at Binghamton University. Keywords Riyadh, Chicago, Binghamton, Irbid, Jordan, Jordanian Food, Jordanian Culture, Binghamton University Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rawan Shabbar https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/706fe5a8d6f154addcc8f0cfc36cc7aa.MP3 e5e86847562f150ad00e4966d0ab9b62 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Middle Eastern Oral History Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews of Middle Eastern immigrants who settled in the Binghamton area. Since the rise of nationalism and the repression of minorities during the last phase of the Ottoman Empire, the ethnic groups in the Middle East have faced physical pressure and violence, cultural assimilation, and ethnic cleansing in the nation-states they lived in, which made them to leave their homeland behind and settle throughout the United States. This project looks at the details about the impact of diaspora. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview June 24, 2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Joseph Seif Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Josephine Haykal Biographical Text Josephine was born in Aintoura, Lebanon. She got married at the age of 15 and has four kids, three boys and one girl. She lived through the Lebanese Civil War, however, towards the end she was able to flee with her family to Boston in the U.S. After a couple months, she moved with her family to Binghamton and started a restaurant business called the Phoenician in the University Plaza in Vestal. Today she is retired and lives in Vestal surrounded by her family and Lebanese community. Language Arabic Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Keywords Aintoura, Lebanon, Japan, Lebanese Civil War, Family, Syria, Marriage, Lebanese Restaurant, Family Business, Boston, Vestal Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 54:32 minutes Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Josephine Haykal