93 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e3eb9f29a02cc9dc9384a5f8dc92dace.mp3 f29a67fd803f3ed3d85ca73c6a82b16d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Maxian, Stephen Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Caganek, Anna Date of Interview 1978-03-28 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 26:17 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55975">Interview with Stephen Maxian</a> Subject LCSH Maxian, Stephen -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Farmers -- Interviews; Farms -- Interviews; Silver Lake (Pa. : Township); Accordionists -- Interviews; Children of immigrants -- Interviews; Johnson City (N.Y.); House construction Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Mr. Stephen Maxian Interviewed by: Anna Caganek Date of interview: 28 March 1978 Stephen: I am Stephen Maxian born in Forest City 1888 November 17, I am 89 years old, I went to school in Forest City a year or so and when I came back, my folks moved here to Binghamton, that’s quite a few years back I was nine—years old I went to school, Clinton Street school a year or so, Jarvis Street school then I went to the St. Pat’s Parochial School, there my father took me out when I was 13 years old, went on the farm, I was growed up on the farm ’til I was 21 years, after I left the farm, I got a job at that time you get a job anyplace. Worked in Kroehlers, finally got married, had 2 children there on, we moved on to a farm, we had a farm in Silver Lake Township, 250 acres. Had a few head of cattle, we worked there for 30 years. The best we could do, the best we could do was to pay for the farm. When we had the farm paid for, we had nothing else—only just the farm and a few tools. I decided we would give up the farn, and get a job in the factory, I finally located a job, in Fairbanks Valve Co. I worked there 13 years, and we run the, farm all together 35 years, so when I got this job in the factory, we decided, we would move into the City. Then when we went looking, for a house, they were asking more for a shabby house in the city, compared to he one we had in the country and all the land, they wanted 6 thousand or 7 thousand, and 8 thousand for a house with water in the cellar, not very nice, so I built me a house home on, Ackley Ave. I decided that would be the best place, I went into my timber lot, I cut the timber, to specification to what we want it for, built the house on Ackley Ave. I was my own contractor, I hired my help, to do the electrical work, to hook up the gas, and put the walls, and I had my friends. Some from the factory, and some from the, sawmill, who sawed the lumber for me, and they helped me build the house.  Of course now I lost my wife 5 years ago. And I do music work, I play an accordion, I play this, I play this accordion quite a few times, as a volunteer, for the Senior Citizens, of the Triple Cities. We go as far as Deposit, we play for the Senior Citizens, in Windsor, Whitney Point, and all the others close by. It keeps us, pretty busy, and I'm not alone in this there's three of us in this. We always play together. Sometimes we get, now and then, a pay job, but not very often. As for my family, I have a daughter one in California, then I got one, in Lewiston, Maine, and I have a son, Stephen, lives on Conklin Rd., and I spent this Easter at his house, had dinner there and today, we played for Senior Citizens, Johnson City Nutrition Center. I got to go everyplace. They never say, “Don’t come back.” They also say, “Come again, we love your music,” of course. This lumber that this house was built, I cut the logs and the boards, and also I drawed the plans for the home on Ackley Ave. And the lumber sawmill that cut the logs, they knew just how to make it, and I had to buy very little lumber to finish the house, I had my own window trim, door casings made of Ash Lumber, which is a very good hard lumber, and the floors made also out of hard maple which is a very good floor and I lacked, a little bit of that, so I had to buy a few feet of lumber for part of my bedroom, which was a little different from my own lumber, it was more seasoned, mine wasn't, quite seasoned, then, my own lumber. Everything seemed to be all right as far as that goes. I'm living on Social Security in Johnson City for 30 years and I have no worries. I've been traveling quite a good deal, after my wife passed away. I’ve been down in Venezuela. Caracas, Venezuela, then in Hawaii, couple times and also down in Bermuda, Nassau, and in Virginia, Florida, different, a lot different places on Senior Citizens. Now I didn't think I would ever see in my younger days. My younger days, most of the time I seen lot of poverty. (Laugh). Now I'm making plans to visit my sister in Michigan, my daughter that lives up in Maine, State of Maine is coming down here in June, early in June and pick me up and maybe my son, and his wife and take us up to my sister in Michigan, Arlington, Michigan, the outskirts of Detroit and l'm looking forward to that, and I guess within a month or so I probably, will be, going to Maryland, visit my grandson and my grandchildren, some that I have never seen, and I'm looking forward to that. Also if I can get up, gumption enough to go I usually, when l travel, I travel with a group, and when you get to be 89 years old, it ain't easy to start out alone, you don’t know what might happen, and I'm supposed to bring my accordion, that I play, and my harmonicas down to my grandson’s because he writes, country music, and I play country music and other kind of music. This harmonica I'm going to play now it’s a key of C. I will play an Irish jig.  [Mr. Maxian plays it]. Now I will play a beautiful Slovak waltz. That was on my accordion. The name of this is “Orphan Child.”  [Mr. Maxian plays]. Now, I will play you on my harmonica, “Swanee River.” [Mr. Maxian plays. Anna claps.] There's one thing I forgot to mention, I have 10 grandchildren, great-grandchildren and I had to wait until a year ago, one whose name is Maxion. The rest is all on my daughter's side. (Laugh). Different names. Oh I'm glad I got one that’s a Maxian. My own family, my father’s family. I had one brother that was born in Slovakia, the rest of the family was all born in this country and when you count ‘em up there was 14 of us. There was 9 brothers and 5 sisters, up to now there's just 2 of us brothers left and 3 sisters, still hanging on. My father and mother they came from Slovakia, as my, wife did, and I can’t say just what year they, immigrated to this country around, about 1880, I guess something like that and when they came to this, country, they came from at that time it was Austria-Hungary, was Franz Joseph, was Monarchy of these two countries, two nations, nationality of these people, the Hungarians, Polish, Czechs, and the Slovaks and some people, who called themselves Russians, also there and there was some Germans, all in this one group in the Two Nations, Austria-Hungary. Today they all have their own nations, that’s about the best I can do. Anna: Thank you Mr. Maxian, thank you. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Stephen Maxian Subject The topic of the resource Maxian, Stephen -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Farmers -- Interviews; Farms -- Interviews; Silver Lake (Pa. : Township); Accordionists -- Interviews; Children of immigrants -- Interviews; Johnson City (N.Y.); House construction Description An account of the resource Stephen Maxian talks about being brought up in Binghamton, NY. He tells of owning a farm in Silver Lake Township for thirty five years. He also discusses moving to Johnson City to take a job at a factory, and building a house for his family with the help of friends and electricians. He speaks about his later career of playing the accordion for local senior citizen groups. He talks of his parents immigrating to the United States circa 1880. He mentions his travels to other countries. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 42 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Maxian, Stephen ; Caganek, Anna Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-03-28 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 26:17 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/60cec59d770b9c91884d40fe45451305.mp3 52dee783fe7c9670de20d8714300c9ea https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3c63da288c8182b8d15396fff51ce06c.jpg c27841adc89d3cb54993eab65248cea4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2017-11-27 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Stephen Norman Weiss Year of Graduation 1967 Biographical Text Stephen Norman Weiss is an attorney in New York specializing in Litigation, Patent and Trademark and Intellectual Property cases. He is managing partner at Stephen Norman Weiss Law Office, but currently semi-retired. He pursued a liberal arts education at Harpur College, which he believes was on par with an education from an elite private college. His JD is from New York Law School. Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni living in Tenafly, NJ; Harpur College – Alumni working in New York City. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Stephen Norman Weiss Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 27 November 2017 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:03 All right, okay, so for the record, this is Irene Gashurov interviewing Steve Weis. Steve, can you tell me your name, your age and who you are? SW: 00:23 Okay, my name is Stephen Weiss. I am 72 years old. I am a man. I graduated at Harpur College in October 1966 but I am officially the class of June 1967. I am a lawyer. I practice patent litigation and international law in New York City, and I live in Tenafly, New Jersey. I have a wife and four children and five grandchildren, and what else about me? That is who I am. IG: 01:01 Um, that is fine. That is [crosstalk] SW: 01:03 Tenafly, New Jersey. IG: 01:04 Okay, so where did you grow up? SW: 01:06 I was born in Bronx County, New York City, in 1945. I go- I-I grew up in, oh, I was I live- We lived in the Bronx until March 1958. My first memory, big memory of the Bronx, was coming home from elementary school, and there was a block party going on, celebrating the death of Joe McCarthy and the whole street and- It was fabulous. 815 Fairmount Place. You can actually find that in Google, but that is where I lived, and there was a big block party, and I was wondering what was going on, and they were all celebrating that someone had died, which was odd to a kid, but um the person that died was Joe McCarthy. So I lived, we lived there, and my sister, myself and my parents lived there until March (19)58 and then we moved to Flushing, Queens, and we lived there until- I lived there until June (19)63 when I left to go to college. I went to high school at Brooklyn Technical High School, which was in Brooklyn, New York, so I had to commute to high school, and there I studied engineering. I know I never became an engineer, and that is probably good, because the bridges and tunnels in New York City that stand today probably would not be there if I went for engineering. [laughs] So then I start- when I applied to Harpur College, at the time, there were two financial programs that made college free for me. I do not know if they still exist. One, you had to take a test for. It was called the Regent scholarship. And if you were a resident of the state of New York, you took a test, and I do not know a certain grade gave you the scholarship, and otherwise you did not get it. And so I got that. And then there was another program called the Scholar Incentive Award, and that was given to all residents of the state of New York, so if you had both, then basically went to college for free. And which is what I did, went to college basically, I mean, there was, there was, like a nominal fee, but I did not pay for dormitory. There was a meal plan, and of course, there was tuition. I paid for books. That was it. And at- when I got accepted to Harpur College, there was no state univ- there was a State University of New York system, but Harpur College was known as Harpur College. It was, was not, was not known as SUNY Binghamton. It was not, I do not know if it was part of SUNY Binghamton or not, but the sign was Harpur College. The acceptance documents which are going to donate to you say Harpur College. And they were just starting the trimester program. My class was the first class that had the opportunity to go in July of (19)63 I wanted to get out of my house as soon as possible, so I opted to go right after I graduated high school to go to college. So that is my background leading up to college. IG: 04:20 Yeah-yeah. so what I am just will return to Binghamton University, and I am very interested to learn what you knew of Harpur College at the time that you applied. SW: 04:37 They- there was no Internet, there was no email, the- we had a guidance counselor at the Brooklyn Tech. And at the time, if you went to school in the one of the New York City High Schools, because my sister went to music and art in New York City, what they would tell you is that you could apply to and I remember three or four colleges, period. I mean, you could not pay that. You could not apply to more, even if you wanted to. I think if you were rejected, you could get another application. But I know people, I know I have four kids and they, I know what they did, but I probably spent more in college applications than people spent on tuition back then, but, but then you could not do that, and one of the applications had to go to the city university system, which was city CCNY, Queens College, Brooklyn, you had to apply to one of them. So that left you with three. And then the guidance counselor said, Well, there was, there was a, he called it a new college. I guess it was not new. Was not was I do not think it was new. It was fairly new because it had been someplace else. Had been Vestal, I think, and they recently moved to the Binghamton just a few years before I started. I think, I think, I am not sure. So he gave me this brochure on Harpur College, and it was a liberal arts college, and I did not want to go into engineering. I want to want the liberal arts, because I like the literature. I like learning various subjects that it want to be, you know, science and engineering. So that was a liberal arts college, and I do not remember. Oh, I know where else I applied. I applied to Oberlin. Oberlin, Ohio. So Oberlin College, and I do not remember if I got in or not, but I mean, I went to gone there for free, then I could not afford it, and I applied to one more, and I did not want to go to the city colleges, because I had to get out. I had to get out. I was very highly motivated to get away for reasons that I will go into so I remember, I remember it was a green brochure, and it just, I just remember, I remember the brochure, it was green, it was like four pages, and it just described the liberal arts education. And so it intrigued me. Now, we did not visit colleges. Then the way, you know, as I said, with my four kids. I mean, I spent money. We flew all over, we flew to Michigan, we flew out to everywhere you can, you name it. We visited with four kids. As I said, on airfare and applications, I spent more than college tuition, but then you did not visit. So CCNY I knew because was in the city, Oberlin. I never visited. I just knew from the brochure the other college that I applied to, I do not even remember, and I did not visit Harpur so but that was the only university that, other than CCNY, that I applied to, where I could use the Regent scholarship and the incentive program. So it was liberal arts, and it just looked interesting, so that is why I applied there. But there was no visiting, no interviews, nothing. IG: 07:55 Let us just backtrack. Um-um, tell me what your parents did for a living, and how many were you in your family? SW: 08:11 My father worked for the state of New York as a tax examiner, and also had a second job selling insurance. He did that for my home, and my mother was a clerk or secretary for the Department of Buildings for the city of New York. And my sister, who is seven years older than I, she actually got married when I was 13 and became and finished the last two years of college, being married and she became a teacher. So she moved out in (19)58 she moved out the year that we left the Bronx and moved to Flushing. IG: 08:52 So did your parents value education, and did they see that education as a vehicle of to a better life. What was their attitude? SW: 09:06 I want to be totally honest [crosstalk]. IG: 09:07 Yes. SW: 09:08 Okay, well, I came from a dysfunctional family, okay, my parents really did not get along, just one of the reasons I had to get out, and that is one of the reasons that my sister left in (19)58 and she got married. She was sophomore in college. She just had to get out. So it was a very difficult childhood, and that is one of the reasons I went to wanted to go to Brooklyn Tech to just to get away. So I commuted to high school. I did not want to go to my local high school. I took a test, and in Brooklyn Tech, you could start in the ninth grade, Bronx Science and Stuyvesant, you had to start the 10th grade, and I wanted to get out. So my mother, neither of my parents went to college, but my mother was-was more encouraging. My father, I actually had to forge his name on the consent form to go to Brooklyn Tech, but my mother helped me out, you know, when she could. So my mother valued education. Now my-my mother's brother, he was actually dean of the graduate school at CCNY during the (19)60s. His name is Oscar, was- is Oscar Zeichner, z, e, i, c, h, n, er, and my mother's maiden name is Zeichner. So his family was also dysfunctional. I do not want to fame my uncle, but he was, he was dean there, and they wrote history book, and so he obviously highly educated, PhD. So my mother valued education, my father, I mean, I did not really, I mean, would not really talk that much. So I do not know what, what he valued, but I always thought. I always knew I would go to college. I do not know why I knew, but I knew I would get actually, ever since I was a little boy, I wanted to be a lawyer. I mean, I have, like, I have some stuff from my childhood, like, like, old, autographed books in the sixth grade. You know, it starts off go little album far and near to all the friends I hold so dear, and tell them each to write a page that I might read in my old age. So now I am 72 I went back and looked at it when I was in the third grade. I wanted to be a lawyer. I do not know why, because I did not know any lawyers. No one in my family was a lawyer, but I wanted to be a lawyer. [laughs] so, so I knew I was going to get a higher education. I never doubted it, and that is not because of parental encouragement or anything. IG: 11:50 But it if not parental encouragement. Do you think that the encouragement came from your teachers and maybe your [crosstalk] SW: 11:57 I think everyone- IG: 11:58 -your, um- SW: 11:59 I am sorry. IG: 12:00 Yeah. SW: 12:01 -everyone in my neighborhood was expected to go to college. I mean, I was brought up in a Jewish neighborhood in the Bronx, and everyone there was expected. It was just like you were expected to go to kindergarten and expected to go from the sixth grade to the seventh grade- IG: 12:18 Right. Yeah. SW: 12:19 I mean, it was just-just understood that that would happen as natural as, you know, as guys going as eating dinner, We just understood that you would go to college. I do not know anyone who did not expect to go to college in the group of people that I grew up with. I mean, it just was, I do not know anyone who just thought of getting a job, or thought of enlisting in the military or thought of going becoming a technician, everyone that I knew, every page in my year, in my elementary school where they signed the autograph book. They all talked to talk about college. IG: 12:23 Right. So was that- was the culture [crosstalk] SW: 12:32 It was the environment, was the entire environment. Was the public, the most unbelievable public-school system. IG: 13:01 Yes. SW: 13:02 I read in high school. I read The Rubaiyat. I read, I read Heart of Darkness in high school. I mean, I mean, I remember, I remember, I remember poems I read in the in junior high, I remember reading John Green Whittier. Do you familiar with that? No. Do you know that? IG: 13:22 No. Third speaker: 13:22 Yeah. SW: 13:23 The Maud Muller, it says, "of all the words of tongue and pan the sad a star it might have been." I still remember that this elementary school would do a sixth grade. So it was the public-school system was unbelievable at that time, I mean, in my neighborhood, Jonas Salk, who had the polio vaccine. He went to my Junior High School in the Bronx, yeah. It was just-just unbelievable public education. IG: 13:37 Right. Right. SW: 13:53 So it was just expected. IG: 13:56 So when you arrived to Harpur College, what-what did the campus look like? You know, was it a culture shock for you to come from the city. SW: 14:10 No. IG: 14:10 And end up in the- SW: 14:12 The country. IG: 14:13 -in the country. Yes, SW: 14:14 No, it was not. I do not know why. It really was not. I mean, it just-just, I cannot explain it. I said, no, like, like zelig, like a chameleon. Third speaker: 14:26 Do you want to draw that for us? IG: 14:26 Yeah. SW: 14:26 Just, I just-just changed. I mean, I just, all of a sudden, I was a college student. I remember very early on there was, there were tables in the student center. Now, if you drove up to center drive, there was a, like, a like a circle, like you would drive up to center drive, you made a left, and you went around a circle, and there was the student center right in front, and there was an Esplanade, you know, an elevated walkway. I have a movie of it which I am going to email you. You see it there? I guess I could draw it. Yeah, I am not a good artist, but, but, but that is where the bus pulled up with that video I showed you. But anyway, in that building I remember, let us see, there was a bookstore, and there was some rooms, hold on, in the back and to the right, where we used to where we had meetings, including SDS [Students for a Democratic Society], but the date that within the day or two after you got there, there was not a formal orientation. There was a letter I got from an advisor which I gave you, which is in that folder. IG: 15:34 Right. SW: 15:34 That was my orientation. He met me. IG: 15:37 Right. SW: 15:37 And-and in there-there were tables, and there was the debate society, which I joined immediately. And the coach was Dr. Eugene Vasilew. And there was a thing called services for youth, which worked with poor children in the Binghamton area. So that intrigued me, so I joined that there were tables, and you would go to the table, and there was a pad and-and there were people who were in that group, and they would talk to you about it, and you could sign your name. IG: 16:11 Why did the opportunity of working with poor children in the neighborhood intrigue you? Was that part of your upbringing? SW: 16:20 I probably identified with them. IG: 16:22 Yeah. SW: 16:22 I mean, I would have to go through analysis the real reason, which I am not going to do, but-but probably, you know, probably I identified with them. IG: 16:34 So, do you think that there was a lot of outreach that Harpur College did to the community. Do you think that it, it had strong ties to the community? SW: 16:45 Right. I think so. Yeah, and they really, they made you feel welcome. I mean, they made me it was a very small school. I mean, when I visited it in October for the 50th, my 50th Homecoming was very- it was large. There was like, I saw those separate communities they called the College in the Woods. I think they called. IG: 17:04 Right. SW: 17:05 That did not exist. None of that existed. There was Harpur College, there was, there was, let us say, Champlain Hall. There was a building to the left of that. There were, like, just a few dorms who basically knew, I think that the cornerstone said (19)58 or (19)59 and I entered (19)63 I mean, some, some of them were being built. Then in the back there was a dawn being built called Chenango, it was not built yet. I moved in there in my third year as the first tenant. I mean, the first student. So you felt like it was a very small community. And at least those of us who entered in July knew everyone IG: 17:06 Right-right. SW: 17:07 Now that changed, because I could talk about trimester, but in that first going there, there was no-no one was there before us, because we were the first trimester. So there were, there were, you know, that was it. Everyone was started [crosstalk] IG: 18:05 You were really the path breakers. SW: 18:07 Yes, yeah, right. There were sophomores and juniors. I mean, people who were in the by- the two-semester system. Obviously, some of them opted to take the next semester starting July, but, but it was very small, so you sort of got to know everybody. So you really felt, I mean, you felt welcome. You- professors had us over it. One of the videos that I am going to email you, that I showed you was, Dr. Vasilew having us over at his house for barbecue. Dr. Carlip [Alfred Benjamin Carlip], he was an economics professor. I do not know if this name anything mean anything to you. He was chairman of the economics department, C, A, R, L, i, p, he had us over to his house. Dr Kadish [Gerald Kadish], he- Third speaker: 18:52 He is still there. SW: 18:53 Taught. He taught history. Third speaker: 18:54 He is still teaching. SW: 18:56 Really? He is still teaching. I have a picture. I have to send it to- it is in my basement. I got to find it. He, he came in my last year, the last semester I had an apartment in Vestal, right near the Vestal High School. So we had an anti-war meeting there, and he came, and I have a picture of him there with his wife, who I learned he divorced a few years after that. May have remarried, but he was a specialist in Egyptian- Third speaker: 19:25 That wife died, so it is, but he is, he is good. SW: 19:29 Really? He is what Egyptians are still specialized in Egyptian history. Third speaker: 19:33 Ancient. SW: 19:35 Ancient history. Yeah, right-right, conversational hieroglyphics. I am joking, but yeah, but yeah, so he is still, he is really teaching. Third speaker 19:43 And very sound, yeah. SW: 19:48 Well, he was young. He was young. I mean, I am 72 and he is maybe 10 years older than me. So he must, he must be in his 80s. Yeah-yeah. Third speaker: 19:53 Maybe even more. I mean, he is old, but he is still functioning. SW: 20:01 That is cool, huh? I value would have known that I would have looked for him at the October reunion. He would have remembered me because he came to, we had anti-war meetings in my in my apartment, he came, he came to a few of them. He came with his wife, the one that he divorced anyway. So, yes, so-so it was very welcoming, warm atmosphere, inclusive. IG: 20:26 And it is, it is very unusual that you had that much interaction with faculty being at a public university, because you would expect that, you know, from a Princeton or- SW: 20:37 Right. Right. IG: 20:40 -something like that, where there is very close interaction. SW: 20:43 Yeah. I saw that that in Columbia, yeah, but that was different. IG: 20:47 Yeah. SW: 20:47 But the but the thing is actually the movie that I showed you at Dr Vasilew's house, I am playing ball with his son. He is like, a five-year-old son, or something, six-year-old. You know, you just felt like, all of a sudden, my dysfunctional family that I grew up with became a functional, welcoming family at this college. It was really- IG: 21:09 It is wonderful. SW: 21:10 -totally different experience. Yeah, I do not know if I did not get that feeling when I was there and October, but I mean, it is only there for a day there, and it seemed much bigger. IG: 21:21 Did your parents visit you? Or did you visit them during your years at [crosstalk] SW: 21:28 My parents, my parents split. My mother said she was [inaudible] She always told me she was going to wait until I graduate high school. Oh, she should not have, but she did, because my father was a little bit nuts, but uh, but um, but they did. But actually, my father and sister came up with me when I went to college in July. I am trying to think how we got up there. We must have taken the Greyhound bus and Port Authority. That is how we got up there. They came up there, and then right across Vestal Parkway, there was a hotel, which is nothing, and then, but they were there for days. So they came up there. My father was not there again. He actually died the following year. I came home, I actually found his body in the bathroom. So, because he was living alone and my mother was living alone, they split. So I came home. I remember, I know why I came home, because I was campaigning for Robert Kennedy for Senate. So I came home in the in October. That was the end of October. Election Day was November, something November 3. And my father died November 1, so he wanted me to stay in his apartment, but I would not, and I came there, and I have had him dead in the floor. So that is sort of guilt. My mother did visit me, actually. She came up a few times, and I would, I would come back here. I would take the train and I came back here. So I would, I would, you know, stay by my mother's place or friends. So I would come. IG: 23:11 Hello. SW: 23:13 Hi, Mary. I am being interviewed. IG: 23:19 Yeah SW: 23:20 I am famous. IG: 23:22 So, I mean, I think I know the answer, but tell us how you-you felt about the Vietnam War at that time. SW: 23:33 Okay. I was against it. There are many, many reasons why somehow was selfish. I mean, we had the draft so that the-the (19)60s are often romanticized by the music and, you know, free love and all that, but there was a pervasive anxiety, because, you are killed. What do you do? You go to jail, go to Canada, maybe never come back. You go in and who knows what is going to happen to you. So there were many reasons why I was against at first, I read a lot and just seemed stupid. I mean, the one seemed stupid, it was no reason for it later on. I mean, if you saw the series on TV, I mean, they lied to us, but it was obvious then that they lied. And you could see, well, I could tell that there was, I can tell the guy's name because I did not like him, Irwin Romana. He was a student up there, and his family had money, so he hired a draft lawyer. So if you had money, you could manipulate the system. I remember his initial. He told me the initial. I said, you have a lawyer. And I remember. This conversation. He said, Yeah, is it expensive? He said, Well, the first visit is $1,000 you know, that was more than college for me for four years. So, but anyway, so it was unfair, it did and it was scary, and there was no justification for it. So, and we studied. I do not know if you, I do not know. Do you have any economic background? IG: 25:29 Well, I have read. SW: 25:30 Okay, so you see if we soon. You know the Mont Pèlerin Society, the what Pèlerin Society? You know the Mont Pèlerin Society? Okay, well, just go into this, because I was [crosstalk] okay. So-so at the end of World War Two, I think Mont Pèlerin was (19)46 I think you remember, yeah, so at the end of World War Two, there were a group of economists who were shocked at what happened with strong centralized government. I mean, in Germany, the strong centralized government gave us, obviously, Nazis. And strong centralized government in Italy was Mussolini, the strong centralized government in Russia was Stalin, and the strong centralized government in Japan was Tojo, Hirohito. And the strong centralized government in the US was created by the New Deal and Franklin Roosevelt. There was big difference between the New Deal and fascism, but it was a strong central government, so they were frightened as to what was going to happen now, as Europe is about to be rebuilt, and how do we deal with the reemergence of strong central governments, how do we fight against it? So they had this meeting in Mont Pèlerin. It was in Switzerland. I think I do not remember you remember more better, more than I do, but and they discussed how to get rid of it. And of course, at that time, the only two strong central governments, was America based on capitalism and the Soviet Union. So they were petrified of the Soviet Union and communism, and they wanted America to become more capitalistic, and they wanted to get rid of a lot of the New Deal elements, which was strong centralized government like Social Security and TVA and all the things that Roosevelt did that they just did not want it so but the big fear was the Soviet Union and communism. And out of that, they broke their promise to, you know, to Ho Chi Minh, that Roosevelt made, that if you help, you will help you fight the Japanese and everything else, because, first of all, died and so anyway, so I was familiar with all that. So that that because I studied economics, and I could tell the teacher that taught it to me, Dr Melville, he was a professor at Harpur College, and they really went into things that, I do not know if they go into it now, but do they teach about the Mont Pèlerin now, I do not know. IG: 25:42 Yes, absolutely. Third speaker: 28:04 I am sure they do. SW: 28:05 Yeah, but so-so-so I was, there were many reasons where I was against Vietnam. So there was a selfish reason the draft, there was the pervasive anxiety that, as time went on, all my friends felt, and we had Dylan playing for the dorms. I mean, I remember, but that was nice and-and we had, you know, lots of sex and other things that were fun, but there was a pervasive anxiety that we were always, you were scared. So since I was against it scary, very scary time. And then we had friends who were involved in the Civil Rights Movement, that there were people from, I guess you know that I think one was not the kids killed going down to one of the marches. I think, I think in (19)65 and I was a sophomore, I think, I think one of the students was killed down south. I did not get the only March I went on South was I went to DC, but I did not, I did not go to the I did not go all the way down south, but I think one of the kids that went down, they got hurt and killed. So there was the Civil Rights Movement. Then scary. IG: 29:16 When, when did you kind of become open to politics and the, you know, the American, American scene, and so engaged, was it because of your of the threat of being enlisted in the in the war, or what made you so alive to the political scene? SW: 29:41 Well, part of it was, we all, were- IG: 29:43 You all were- SW: 29:44 Yeah, I mean, it was, it was not there. Was this was not the this was the small group, maybe a small group joined SDS. That was not the only thing that was there. There was- IG: 29:54 I mean, did it, did it happen on campus, or did it happen before coming? Your Harpur college- SW: 30:00 I think it really evolved. It really got strong on campus. Yeah, not before first of before I was on campus, there was a lot of promise with Kennedy and the I did not know that he actually but he actually did not get I did not know that that, but no in high school, I mean, Kennedy was elected in November (19)60 I was in high school, and he was not killed until I was in college. And he was very popular with young people. One of the things I am giving you that Kennedy book I got the Hobb Bookstore, yeah, extremely popular. He was young. He was funny. And, you know, you got us, there was Bay of Pigs, and he admitted it was his fault. You know, he seemed, you know, almost like truancy. The buck stops here. I mean, he seemed honest so, and he said, I am a liberal and proud of it when people do not say that anymore. So, so through my high school years, when, before I went to college, I mean, I was really, you know, I was proud to be an American. Still, I am still thinking America is best country, you know, it is just that we have to do something about it. IG: 31:15 Right. SW: 31:15 But-but I was really felt the American pride. And then was after he was killed, the things started, you know, then, you know, it just like, like, shocked when he was killed, the chain, it changed a lot. And when Johnson came in, because we, you know, there were these theories, was he involved? And I am sure he was not, but, but then things started to jail. So Harpur College really happened. IG: 31:47 So tell us what your involvement in student activism was like, student protest or activism, and what that that scene was [crosstalk] SW: 31:56 Okay. So when it was still a very small college where in November (19)63 when he was killed. And through my through my years, there was that. There was not, if these other colleges did not exist, even when I graduated, there was no it was still small. It was bigger, but still small. And everyone, and everyone I knew was involved, it was not unique. It was not like the young democrats and young republicans, and they may have been stuff like that, but, you know, it was more focused. There was a group really focused on the Martin Luther King and on the south and, you know, and I remember, like we talked about, we talked we mentioned this, this, this country as good as it is, was a country where half of the country fought for the right of one human being to own another. Civil War was it was a war where someone fought for the right to own another person. So he was not with that, and obviously it was a long way uphill. So, so there was, there was, to some extent, there was separate. The SDS was both, was both was divert for a minute. One of the things that SDS fought for was ending the student curfew. You know about the student curfew? IG: 33:22 Yes, that is another thing that I will- SW: 33:24 That was one of the, one of the first things, the first time I went to a meeting, which was in the old student center under the Esplanade, one of the first things they talked about was the curfew. Because if you were a female, you had to have you did not get a key. They locked the door. I do not remember what time it was during the week. It was one certain time, and then then on the Friday night and Saturday night, it was a little bit later, but it was still they locked it. Now they did not lock my door, only the woman's dorm. So SDS, one of the first things that we did was to fight against the curfew. When we had petitions, we sent it around. These the mailboxes were. They were not in the student center. There was a building, so I do not remember what the mailboxes were. I remember I was box 38 Harpur College, but I do not remember where they were. You used to there was a, I think was a combination. I do not remember, but they would, we would stuff these petitions in the mailbox that in the curfew that was when big things that SDS did was fight for that. Because I remember I went out with this girl, and we got back late, and she was locked out and she was suspended, and nothing happened to me. Nothing. I mean, I nothing happened to me. Yeah, we felt horrible. IG: 34:48 It is. SW: 34:50 I felt horrible. I mean, we did not go to bed together. We just-just thought we would just, there was this hill that led to the gym. The gym was down here with the students was here; it was like a hill, and it was sitting on the hill and talking just and we went back and it was locked. IG: 35:07 Yeah. SW: 35:09 Now if you but if you were 21 you got a key. So if you were, like a junior or senior, and you were 21 years old, you did not have the curfew for a female. So-so-so that was one of the things we did. IG: 35:22 For a woman, for female and-and [crosstalk] SW: 35:25 Men did not need a key. I mean, there was no [crosstalk] IG: 35:27 Female after 21 they did not need a key. SW: 35:30 They did not need the kid. No, they got a key. I am sorry they did not get locked out. In other words, you could not get into the dorm after they locked unless you had a key. Was a little, you know, [inaudible] regular key. Yeah, so, but you got the key if you were 21 so, um, but you could drink when you were 18. So you get drunk. Mr. Curfew, get suspended. So, but you could not vote. Can vote in 21, but anyway, so that was one of the things that they were for. But then we talked about the war, the draft, one of the things that we did in, I forget which year it was, we had an intense debate about the Selective Service Exam. You are familiar with that? IG: 36:21 I do not think so. SW: 36:22 Okay, I forget when, what year was, when I was a sophomore or junior. I Think, I think Junior, it does not really matter. But Johnson, if you were in college, you were deferred from the draft, you had to register when you were 18 with your local board, and then if you were in school, you had what was known as a 2s which was a student deferment. But what Johnson did was, what was have a test, because he said that they wanted more manpower in the army, they wanted less student deferments, so they-they gave a test in the spring of the academic year, and the test was to select an exam just the general like, like a College Board test, like ETs and-and the test was being given in the gym, and there was only one gym, and you went down this, the main road of down this hill, and to the right there was a gym. And in the gym, they set up chairs, and they had this exam. So we were debated. We were against the exam, but then some of us said, “Well, look, you know, it is fine to be against the exam and not take it,” but what if they actually use this exam for the student deferment would be deprived if we, if we prevented other students from taking it, would we be giving them a ticket to Vietnam, getting rid of the 2s so they were back and forth, and anyway, it went the way the pro- We decided to protest it anyway and tell people not to take it. I did not take it. I did not take the test, but that was the decision I made for myself, but we wanted to make the decision for everyone else, so that was the debate. And debate was that we were going to make the decision for everyone else, not let them take it. But we never did that. But I remember we wanted to do that, but we did not. so. So it was not the homework. It was not, you know, everyone did not agree with every you know, it was not like- IG: 38:26 How many were you? How many were you in the SDS? SW: 38:32 Not a lot. IG: 38:34 100? SW: 38:35 No-no-no. Not the whole, the whole, no, 40, 50, maybe less, maybe less. We did not come to we did not come to meetings. Some people signed up. But-one of the reasons I signed up, there was a very attractive girl who said, you should because I was active. I mean, I did make my political views known. This is very attractive girl who came up to me says, Why did not you, why do not you go to an SDS meeting? And that is why I went for the first one. IG: 39:16 Well, it is a good enough reason. SW: 39:19 Yeah, but-but, I mean, most meetings, then they are not that many people. It would be, I mean, there may be 50 total in the whole thing, but there were, you know, maybe 10, 20, would come, maybe 10 would come. But we were active, like we got these petitions for the for the-in the curfew, we tried to block the-the Selective Service Exam, we-we put up the posters. Did you ever see the poster? Girls say yes, the boys who say no. IG: 39:59 No-no. That is, that is funny. So there were, were they? Were there females in SDS? SW: 40:07 Of course. IG: 40:08 Of course, yes. SW: 40:09 Yeah-yeah-yeah. IG: 40:15 Very funny. SW: 40:15 Sponsored there by the protest against the army. We put them up in dormitories. And we actually encouraged, for selfish region- reasons, also, we actually encouraged women to, you know, support the anti-war movement by, you know, free love, just-just, you know, resist the draft, go to go to a protest, and we will get sex. I am not kidding. That is, that was one of the things we talked about, you know, just-just doing that. There was no aids, there was none of that stuff there. IG: 40:53 Or it was not known about. SW: 40:54 It was known about, I do not think there was, was there back in the (19)60s. No, I do not know. It does not really matter, but that is what happened. So, you know, experimented. I mean, we were not the same, like the SDS started in Wisconsin with the Port Huron manifesto statement, you know. IG: 41:15 How were you different? SW: 41:17 Because we were not really part of, like, like a fraternity, like a national group, and we did not really get involved with them. IG: 41:23 Right. SW: 41:24 You know, there was not like a, it was not the it was not a unified thing. It was not like a, was not like the Democratic party with a Democratic National Committee. There was the Port Huron statement, and they probably did have involvement at Columbia, where they had the student strikes. CCNY had student strikes in the in the Lewisohn Stadium, I think was called [crosstalk]But we were a very small school and-and we did not, we did not have much to do with any national, any other-other SDS. We were basically contained. IG: 42:00 But you got your messages. SW: 42:03 Yeah. IG: 42:03 Platform- SW: 42:04 Oh yeah, oh yeah. No, we did. We did communicate, yeah. We did communicate it, but we did not get Yeah. IG: 42:08 And how did you communicate with them? With-with-with central [crosstalk] SW: 42:15 Yeah-yeah, no. IG: 42:16 So what was [crosstalk] SW: 42:19 We got brochures from them. I remember getting box, a box of brochures. We got a box of those posters girls, you know, things like that. IG: 42:27 That is interesting. SW: 42:28 -to put up on the wall. IG: 42:31 So we touched on this a little describe to me what your- the social scene was at Harpur College. Was it a party school? What is it? What did it have a reputation of being a party school at the time? SW: 42:46 No, did not. IG: 42:46 It did not. SW: 42:47 It was and it was serious. It was serious. Was serious, but it was fun. there- was it was fun. It was not fun because we know it got drunk or anything like that. First of all, you only have to be 18 to drink, so it was no big deal. I mean, you know, I drank when I could get a drink when I graduated high school, but legally, no bar. I mean, it is, you know, there was a we did not get drunk when, I guess we did sometimes, but it was not, it was not the big thing. No, it was not, was not the party school. We had fun. We had, we had, I remember seeing the Beach Boys at was not there. We went up. I remember a group of us went up to Ithaca, the Cornell, The Beach Boys performed. I remember seeing the [inaudible] Erin Quartet. IG: 42:56 Yeah, Oh, yes, they are still around. SW: 43:35 They are? Third speaker 43:36 I have a question, what were you doing? Like, other than attending classes, like when you are not going to school, or during the weekend? What were the like- Some of the activities? IG: 43:36 Yes. SW: 43:36 They were in residence, I think so, yeah, in Binghamton. So they- we- I remember seeing the great, great they had great entertainment that we saw. What is his name, if you have Max Morath. He did Ragtime. Did a show there. It was very crowded. Did that. It was, it was a lot of fun, you know, this, you know, other than the pervasive fear that we had with the war lingering over us when we graduated, it was, it was a lot of fun. There was, there was, you know, no, it was not, was not the party school. No serious students. We took academia seriously. We took politics seriously, and close relationships. And there was, there was, like, free love, but, you know, but that was pervasive. I think then, maybe now too, I do not know. Well, I was on the debate team, so we traveled to various schools like you saw that thing from. Lehigh University. We traveled to New York City. We stayed at a hotel on the Grand Concourse, concourse Plaza Hotel where the Yankees stayed. We actually had the first- where they had one of the first UN meetings there at the concourse Plaza. So we traveled. So I was the debate team. I was on services for youth, where we work with poor children in Binghamton, I was in SDS. We did. We went with the brochures rallies. We encouraged people to protest. A group of a group of them organized a bus to the south, I did not go. I do not remember, I do not remember where the dream. I thought that someone got killed, but I am not sure it was my house, school, or someone who went along. Yeah, I did not go this. I cannot think what happened. I did go to Washington, so we sponsored that. What else did I do? I worked. I worked in the in the Music Library, Music Library. IG: 46:08 that like, what did you do? SW: 46:12 We put on music. In other words, you would sit there, like, if you were taking music appreciation, you would sit there and put on headphones [crosstalk] and Beethoven's Ninth, and then we would, I would be in the control room, and I would put on a record with Beethoven's Ninth, and I would say, plug it to seat nine, right? There was no mp3, so things like that. So I worked there, and there was a language lab. What we do? You win, and then you put on headphones and you listen to German or Russian, yeah, and you would repeat. They would say, you know, guten tag, guten tag. So some people work there, but I remember working in the music. I had another job one of the summers I was up there driving a tractor on a golf course. I got paid $8 an hour, which is a lot then. IG: 46:19 Yeah, I remember yeah music library [crosstalk] it was, it was probably a lot in in certain parts of the country. SW: 47:07 Yeah-yeah, so that is one thing [crosstalk] IG: 47:09 So were you self-sufficient, pretty much with your scholarship and the money that you earned from part time jobs? Or- SW: 47:17 Yeah-yeah. IG: 47:17 It is tremendous. SW: 47:17 Yeah. Had to be. IG: 47:17 You had to be. SW: 47:21 Yeah. Yeah. I also, once, one summer, I worked in the I came back and I mother had my mother lived in the Bronx. My father already died, and I worked in the New York Public Library, actually, oh yes, from [inadible]. You know what I found them, I could bring it down later, I found the letter that I wrote saying, I think I am going to go into politics, to the person in the library on Harpur stationary. I will give it to you. I will give with the stuff. When we are finished, I will bring it down. IG: 47:53 Yeah. Was this is [crosstalk] SW: 47:58 I never went into politics. I never did. IG: 48:00 No-no speaking about politics, was there recruitment for the war on campus? SW: 48:05 No, that is not that I remember, I- IG: 48:09 -not that you remember. So do you think that that was unusual for because of the constituency? SW: 48:16 We did not have ROTC. IG: 48:17 I see. SW: 48:18 I mean, other schools did. We did not. First of the school is too small. We never had it. We did not have France either. I mean that to their fraternities. Third speaker: 48:25 They have now. SW: 48:27 Do they do? We did not. We did not have them. We had no fraternities. We had, we had society. They had, I was not a member of it. There was a Greeks society, but it was not fraternities. I do not know what it was, because I It was not very big, it was not very popular, and I do not know anyone who was in it, so, but there was no recruitment. There was no ROTC there was [crosstalk]. Third speaker 48:28 Oh yeah. IG: 48:49 That-that answers the question. So what was residential life like? What did you do for entertainment? SW: 48:56 Well, there was, there was a TV in the lounge. There was only one TV, and it was in the lounges, black and white TV. The lounge was in the first floor. If you went into Champlain Hall, let us see. There were two dormitories that faced each other, Champlain, I think, and something else. IG: 49:15 Right. SW: 49:16 And the first semester was in the one on the left. I do not remember what a name of it was. And then the go at the-the entrance was, let us see, there was a walkway, and then the entrance was this way, perpendicular to the walkway, and go in, and you wind up in the lounge, and there was a TV there. I remember seeing Ed Sullivan seeing the Beatles. We all sat around. IG: 49:39 I remember that too. SW: 49:40 The Beatles is on the Sullivan show. Yeah, that is where we watch the Kennedy funeral, and everyone was crying. And go to the Student Center. We go to a place [inaudible], and we go to a place called Sharkies. They had something called spiedie. It was like something on a skewer. Yeah, I do not know what it was. Third speaker 50:08 They still have that. Not Sharkies I do not know but spiedies, chicken spiedies. SW: 50:09 Sharkies, yeah. I do not think it was chicken, I would not eat it now, but- Third speaker 50:16 Yeah. SW: 50:17 I do not know what it was. So we did things like that. We had these, the SDS, we had the other clubs. I mean, there was always something to do. It was always, you know, there was a theater. If you faced the student, if you went up to the main driveway, and then you went down the circular thing to the right, and the movie where you saw those me and my friend breaking into the window. There was a theater in that building, and they had entertainment there. It was, it was, was fun. I mean, it was, it was, it was, it was a lot of fun, actually. IG: 50:51 So were you in a in a kind of a circle with a lot of girls as well? It was, there, were there sort of mixing of the girls, it was everybody went out together. Or did you go out in pairs? Or, I mean, where did you go? Like [crosstalk] SW: 51:08 When you went to Shark- when you went to Sharkies, would go- IG: 51:10 Yeah. SW: 51:13 -in- IG: 51:13 Yeah. SW: 51:14 Boys and girls would go. IG: 51:15 Yeah. SW: 51:16 The thing with the debate society. IG: 51:19 Yeah. SW: 51:20 Boys and girls would go, there was no coed dorm. SDS, boys and girls that the video I showed you at Vasilew's House you saw female students and male students. IG: 51:28 Yeah. SW: 51:30 Kadish, if you are asking, give Kadish my name and just home Stephen Weiss and in the apartment in Vestal and the anti-war meetings. I mean, if he is still there, he will remember that. And his first wife, because he came there, he used to use the bum there, yeah, yeah. And one of his, one of his best students, was the kid running for the bus with the little stick they said, is dead now. His name was David Lorden, remember the name? You mentioned that to Mr. Katie, Professor Katie, she remember him too, as we used to go, yeah. But then, no, that was coed. We used to do things. You know, sometimes we students was, I forgot the name of it. That is my senior moment with the kids what I said was- IG: 52:23 Well, how did the faculty regard your you know, social interactions your dating. Do they get involved in it? I mean, or rather the supervisors, were they kind of scrutinizing what you were doing after- SW: 52:42 What surprises? IG: 52:44 Did not you have RA resident assistance or any kind of supervision in your dorms? Because obviously there was somebody monitoring your comings and goings with the curfew, right? SW: 52:58 But we did not have a curfew. IG: 52:59 You did not have a curfew, but the girls did. SW: 53:01 Yeah, I do not know. I do not I have no idea what was in the girls, but in the men, let me just think we did. I am sorry. Third speaker: 53:09 Not curfew, but maybe like rules, that- SW: 53:12 There were rules, but let me just think there was a there was a woman almost like a den mother for the Cub Scouts. There was no there was an older woman who I do not know what her involvement was, I mean, do you know what I am talking about? There was some, there was a woman who was like, part of out from Champlain. She was, she was like the den mother- IG: 53:35 Maybe she was- SW: 53:36 -for Champlain. And this other dorm that was quite opposite, this walkway, no Champlain would be here. This other dorm was here, and the left one, I am indicating left and the right, lawyer talk, indicating, but uh, and there was this woman, no, she was not a resident assistant. She was employed, I guess, by Harpur. But I do not remember they may have been. I do not remember what you would call I know RAs, because my four kids went to colleges and they were RAS but I do not remember that at Harpur. That does not mean they were not. IG: 54:08 I mean, I am I see a little bit of a discrepancy here, because on the one hand, you talk about free love, and that must have been taking place somewhere. SW: 54:20 Right. IG: 54:20 And on the other hand, there were curfews for female students- SW: 54:24 Right-right. IG: 54:24 -and if they were just a few minutes late, they would be suspended. SW: 54:28 Right. IG: 54:29 So-so where was there- SW: 54:32 Was, there was the- IG: 54:34 -happening. SW: 54:35 There was outdoors. There was this hill- IG: 54:37 Yeah. SW: 54:37 -that led down, I remember this hill that that went from where the dorms were down to the- IG: 54:44 Right. SW: 54:44 -gym, and lots of kids hung out there. IG: 54:46 Yeah. SW: 54:47 There were people with cars and doing the back seat of the car. IG: 54:52 Okay. SW: 54:57 I remember doing the back seat of a Volkswagen. IG: 54:58 Yeah. SW: 54:59 Yeah. I mean, you did what you had to do, but no, but there was- IG: 55:02 Yeah-yeah. SW: 55:07 But you could the girls could not go, wait. Oh yeah, you could wait. I am trying to think some rule that your feet had to be on the ground, wait- IG: 55:16 Yeah. SW: 55:17 -your feet had to be on the ground. [crosstalk] Or, that rings a bell. I do not remember what that was. IG: 55:22 Right, I forgot exactly, but yeah, along those lines. SW: 55:24 Yeah, you could visit, but your feet had to be on the ground. Door open [crosstalk] IG: 55:27 One-one of the you know members, well, the member of the office is sex, or had to have at least one foot on the ground. SW: 55:36 Yeah-yeah. But who would check? But then the door had to be open, so there must be somebody. IG: 55:40 Somebody could not be lying, SW: 55:41 Right. Yeah, but-but there must have been someone to check it. I mean, there must have been some walking by. IG: 55:46 Exactly-exactly [crosstalk] SW: 55:46 I do not remember who that could have been. IG: 55:48 Not hearing with that. SW: 55:49 I have no idea. I do not remember, but I am- just rang a bell about feet on the ground. I just-just thought of that right now. IG: 55:55 Yeah-yeah. I heard about that too. Third speaker: 55:58 Could you visit the girls' dorm? SW: 56:01 During the certain hours she could it was visible and that we had that feet on the ground, yeah, certain hours during the day, you could go into the other dormitory and go upstairs, they said the hours, and you could do that. There were not there was no men's room bathroom in the girls dorm, and we could not use their bathroom, and there was no girl's bathroom in the men's dorm, but you could visit. And it was said [inaudible] maybe, maybe was one to four or something on certain days, on the weekend. I do not remember what it was, but yeah, you could, and the door had to be opened. And the rule was both feet or one foot on the ground with the door open. Remember that. But when you want to have sex, you have sex, you find a place to do it. IG: 56:47 Yeah. SW: 56:47 I mean that there is no- IG: 56:48 Do you think that expectations about sex and marriage were changing very much then that, you know, the free love, of course, does not equate, you know, the expectation is that it, it will not necessarily lead to marriage. So- SW: 57:08 Just as no, there was no reason not to enjoy that feeling. IG: 57:12 Yeah. SW: 57:12 Just because you are not going to get married [crosstalk] or you are going to go your way. IG: 57:15 I am just sort of trying to get [crosstalk] SW: 57:21 People expected to get married. Yeah, I expected to get married someday. The girls that I knew expected to get married, not necessarily to me. I do not know any girl back then who wanted to marry me. Now, whoever would ever, ever think of marrying someone like me? I do not think I was- IG: 57:36 What were you like back then? SW: 57:38 I remember doc- I remember Dr Vasilew said-said to me personally. He said a girl would probably think twice because of your childhood, you know, like him broken home and you do not like to visit [inaudible], you know, he said that probably would have an effect on how, how I would relate to a partner, the type of relationship. He actually said that to me. Dr. Vasilew, I remember it very clearly, so- IG: 58:11 That is very prescient of him, you know, because people were not necessarily talking like that back then. SW: 58:16 Oh, he said that to me. Oh, yeah, he did. Meanwhile, I have been married at the same woman since 1974 it can look very well, no, that is something, you know there, but, um, yeah, but people expected to get married, but not necessarily to the people that they went to bed with then, and also people disappeared. now they went, well, they went a different way. This is an out of town college with a trimester program where people, you know, I, there was one time I went three semesters and took off a semester. I mean, you know, then someone else would not be there, and then when it come back a semester later. IG: 58:56 Right. SW: 58:56 And then, you know, we did not have emails. I lost contact with a lot of people because there was no email. You did not do an email, if you did not write a letter. I have letters upstairs that I wrote to some people, but when I left Binghamton, I mean, I could not email, you know, my old roommate, my kids, they still email roommates, they email friends from high school. And I could not, and we did not do that. So you lost contact. If you did not write a long hand letter, that was it, and you did not call, because it is not, you know, unlimited, you know, calls on the cell phone. IG: 59:33 So how did you stay in touch, because clearly you-you know the face of some of your classmates. SW: 59:40 The only reason I know faces, I looked them up on the on the Binghamton. I learned that, well, I learned that Harvey Bournfield died. Who was he was the one in the video, because I tried to email him. I kind of classmates.com recently, five years ago, and I remember, and I. And then I-I had a phone number, I called him and actually got his son, and I found out that I had missed him by a year, and he died of cancer. So I sent his son a copy of that video. I said, I have a video of your father you may want to see, because he was the one climbing through the window. So, you know, I said that to me, really, he liked that so, but that is that I learned about Dave Lawton, who I was on the debate team and knew Dr Kadesh. I found that he died because I checked him on the alumni page. I checked names before the reunion, before the October. That is the only reason I know otherwise I will not know, yeah, and we did not keep touch. No. IG: 59:45 Were you? You said that you know Binghamton or Harpur College was felt like a family that you had not had with your own- SW: 1:00:50 To me, not necessarily to people who did have a family. It is all subjective. IG: 1:00:56 Of course, we are talking about your experience. So were you very saddened when you graduated and you had to leave this family? SW: 1:01:05 No, that is a very interesting question. I actually thought about that recently, because I was talking to my wife about that I want before we went back to that reunion. I wondered why I was not. IG: 1:01:19 Yeah. SW: 1:01:20 I mean, I really wondered about myself, why? Why was not I sad about leaving like, like my old my last roommate was a fellow by the name of Ira Mintzer. And we were close. We were good friends. We went on double date, double dates together. We had an apartment in Vestal near the Vestal High School. And, you know, I had left in the I left Binghamton, and that was it. No contact, no letters. You want to hear an interesting story about Ira Mintzer. IG: 1:01:20 Yes. SW: 1:01:23 So I am on Facebook, so I searched for some names. I come across Ira Mintzer. I remember he wanted to be a doctor. So Ira Mintzer doctor in Cambridge, Massachusetts. So I contacted him, because my old roommate, and two years ago, my wife and I were going up to Boston, so I said, “We are coming up to Boston.” He had me at his house for dinner, and his wife- IG: 1:02:24 How nice! SW: 1:02:25 -had not seen him since 1967 this was two years ago, since 2015 and got along as if, as if, we just graduated. So it is Facebook. IG: 1:02:44 You probably felt connected with him. SW: 1:02:47 Yeah, no. Now we come with now we write each other. I mean, on Facebook, we do not, we do not write. But now you do not have to send letter. You do not the call. I mean, you just there. It is, yeah, indicating with my fingers, yeah, no. So. IG: 1:03:00 Maybe-maybe. SW: 1:03:02 I do not know why I did not feel that, but other people, other people would have cried graduation. I maybe it is a defect in my personality. IG: 1:03:10 No, maybe it gave you what you needed, and that was it. SW: 1:03:13 Yeah, it was time to was time to move on. IG: 1:03:16 Time to go. SW: 1:03:17 Well, it is time to move on. I moved. I guess that is good. Maybe, you know, yeah, but I did, yeah, well, I do not know, but yeah, but I did not feel I felt glad to leave my home and go there. IG: 1:03:34 Yeah. SW: 1:03:35 I was happy when I was there. Other the anxiety that was pervasive in the (19)60s, and I was but I was not sad when it came time to leave. It was time to leave. IG: 1:03:45 Yeah. SW: 1:03:46 I did keep in touch with Dr Vasilew. IG: 1:03:48 Oh. SW: 1:03:50 By-by letter, we wrote each other. I would write him, and he would write me, not frequently, maybe a few times a year, but we did. But he was more than a pro- he was my coach and debating, so we would travel together the debate team. You saw that article which mentioned the debate team was not at large. It was eight of us, and I do not remember, but it was not large, so we were close group also. And you know, it was also like a cub master, and I was friends with his kid. I was friends with his kids, but when we went there, we played with his kids ball. He had three kids, daughter and two sons. IG: 1:04:32 When you look back on this experience at Harpur College, what do you think you know? How do you think it changed you? What did it give you? You said [crosstalk] SW: 1:04:46 Liberal arts education, yeah, and nothing with the clubs or anything else. The edge, I felt like the classes were small. We did not have any. There was one hall. All that looked like a lecture hall, and that was across the street from across the lawn, from the library. There was a new building, which, I mean, I think was science or something. I remember what it was, and that had a lecture hall, and I remember taking Psychology 101, and that was a lecture hall. Even then there was, was not a lot of students. Every other class I had was in the classroom not much bigger than the classroom I had in high school, elementary school, which was, you know, what, was not big. So we were really, I mean, it was really an intimate educational environment, you know, what, the way you picture something in the in the Aristotle or the Socrates, and, you know, he really, it was really back and forth. You know, when we this, when Dr. Carlip, discussed the Mont Pèlerin Society, when we really discussed it. Remember discussing, well, the-the outcome of that was Reagan and taking back, undoing the New Deal, but really with their motives. And I remember debating it, their motives, to some extent, were good motives, because they were afraid of central government, the fascism and everything else that came with it. And I remember debating it back and forth, maybe like 15 of us in the class and Dr. Carlip, and every once in a while, he would have a sofa to his house for a class. So these were not big classes. So it was, I think I really learned a lot. I mean, my notebook, I used to, I used to type my notes, and it was just, was just, I mean, I really felt I got an unbelievable education. I mean, I remember just, I just remember things that these professors said I. I remember my English. I remember my English professor- IG: 1:06:45 For example, give us, give us some, you know, memorable things that they have told you that have influenced your thinking. SW: 1:06:52 Okay. they want my-my English, one of my English professors who had us to read The Rubaiyat [Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám]. So, I mean, I read that to my kids when they were young. the moving finger writes. You know that right? You know the Rubaiyat so. So just remember, I remember, I am saying "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit ". Can call it back the cancel half a line or your tears wash out of it. I just remember standing up there. I remember, remember how that influenced a young student, you know, did? I am a devout atheist. Let me enforce that. So just and Dr. Melville [Robert Melville], who he was an advisor to the House Committee on sales and use tax. So in my because of that, just because of him, yeah, I am just getting a notebook because of Dr. Melville and when they read, I read the bill, it was just a bill. But this was the bill back then, HR, 11, 798, he was the, he was the member of Congress in Binghamton. IG: 1:08:22 Oh, wow. SW: 1:08:23 And since Dr. Melville was involved in that, I mean, I wanted to research it, so I read it on my own, because, because of him, so, you know, and I wrote a paper about it. I think that is my paper. I am not sure. Is that about the sales, news, tax- IG: 1:08:47 -introduction, apology and justification? Is that it? SW: 1:08:51 Oh, I know what that was. Yeah, about economics. I do not remember. IG: 1:08:57 Yeah-yeah, theory and you agree beginning. SW: 1:09:03 But you could see what the type of student there was by looking at my notebook. I mean, there is my notes-notes. I mean, I typed everything, but I really like it really felt like, like a partnership. Let us pull my rope. I mean, I really, I really felt like there was a partnership between the students and the professors in the academic environment that we learned from each other. I said it was almost like the what you would think the Greek learning system was. So that is what, that is what I got out of it. I do not know if they do that now, I think the classes are bigger now, yeah, and the money's cut back now. I mean, education was still highly valued then by our society. Third speaker 1:09:50 Oh, graduate level, you get that? SW: 1:09:53 I am sure you do. Third speaker: 1:09:54 But undergraduate level , you do not. SW: 1:09:56 Oh, we got it. My undergraduate level, we got small class. Is, we delved into things deeply. We debated them. Third speaker: 1:10:04 You describe like, what you describe here sounds like, you know, graduate [crosstalk] IG: 1:10:12 Well or a very, you know, exclusive private college, right? SW: 1:10:18 It was like that. It was free. It was great. I do not believe I did all this. I am looking at these notes. I must have lunatic. I must have been very compulsive. My God. Third speaker: 1:10:18 Yeah. IG: 1:10:34 So how do you think that the college prepared you for your future life, what, what imprint did it leave on you? What, you know, in a quality of kind of thinking, or how did it- SW: 1:10:50 I think it made me help, make me a better human being. When my first job as a lawyer was legal aid, criminal, you know, I did not, was not there for the big bucks or anything I really want. I mean, that is the only job I applied for. That is the only thing I wanted to do. So, I do not know. I think it helped with everything. I think it was, it even helped me be a better husband and parent. I mean my kids. I mean I am proud of them. That is my four kids up there, but I mean they at Thanksgiving. I mean, we all went around to say what we are thankful for. We are all eight. We are all atheists, but we went around, but one of them things, Alex said, my youngest son, he said, I am thankful for a close knit, happy family. that was just, I mean, you know, just. And one of the things I remember, one of the things I envied of Dr. Vasilew, was because I came from a broken home, was to see him and his family when he took a sit into the to the house and so, so I think it helped me be, you know, and be a better lawyer, too. I think that the more liberal your education, the better you could be at whatever you do, whether you are a doctor or lawyer. So it helped me, you know, with the assigned counsel, because you were assigned as legal aid to defend people, I just, you know, I understood that, but for the grace of God, no, I so. So, yeah, I think, I think the education I got there really carried me far. IG: 1:12:34 So any thoughts for the future of how, of what elements, what ingredients are most essential for the kind of educational experience that you were provided? SW: 1:12:47 I think the most important thing, I disagree with what Obama talked about, and I supported Obama at both times, but when he talked about, you know, maybe not everyone, maybe we should have so much of a liberal arts education, but should prepare people for jobs and things like they said that. IG: 1:13:05 Yeah. SW: 1:13:06 I disagree. I think, I think, if you an educated society is the best guarantee of freedom of-of, you know, universal health care, of opportunity and-and that is a liberal arts education. You have to literature, math, science, history, economics. Mont Pèlerin, you went to study that, unless you went to economics. But that is really, that is really a philosophical Ryan [Paul Ryan], the House of Speaker is a Mont Pèlerin type person, right? I mean, he really believes that the government has no business in Social Security or Medicare or Medicaid. Well, that is right out of Mont Pèlerin's first year away from the New Deal or away from Nazism or away from the central government. So I think that a well-educated society, liberal arts is the most important thing. I think everyone should have liberal arts education. I mean, I do not know how we can do that. You know, Bernie Sanders said education for all, but the society, I do not think, is, is moving away from it. IG: 1:14:19 Right. SW: 1:14:19 You know, the-the thing that, and a non-educated society is more susceptible to fear. I mean, when you are, you know, if you are educated, then, then you-you can, you could, like we did in the classes in college, you know, you could look at something and ask, this, is this makes sense? Like Vietnam? Does this make sense? Does it make sense to go to war when, when a group of fanatics bomb the World Trade Center? Does it make more sense to have police work and deal with them and fight them, and that is and that is not a war, you know? Yeah, you use a reason, but you but, but that is the luxury of an. Educated person, but, but, but we should recognize that it is in our interest to have our neighbors educated, otherwise our neighbors will come at us with the pitchforks. You know, the educated one is not because, so it is a selfish reason, just like, Why was I against the war in Vietnam? Or part of it was altruistic, but part of it was selfish, so, but there is nothing wrong with having a selfish component, because we are people, so that is fine. So that is what I that is what I think, you know, and we have to invest more, but we are not going in that direction. I just told my son when he was here for Thanksgiving, I said, Why do not you go into politics? My youngest son- IG: 1:15:39 But you know, going to Harpur College at the time that you did, you know, during the mid (19)60s, when the country was really going through cataclysmic changes, you know, maybe intensified your educational experience. SW: 1:15:56 Of course it did. Yeah, we were forced to be involved. Well, part of it was the Selective Service system. You were forced. You could not-not be involved. You could choose not to take the exam in the gym, but you were involved with the ticket or not. You know, it is like Moby Dick in the whale. You know, you can decide to throw a spear into Moby Dick or not. The whale is going to be there. It is there. So, you know, we were involved with the you could not-not be involved. You know, we got those develops like I am going to give you from the draft, but we were involved, the civil rights movement. We were involved. There were people getting angry. Out of out of SDS, came the Black Panthers, yeah, [inaudible] the SDS, you know, so you we were involved, and there was nowhere not to be. There was areas of Binghamton where you would be afraid to walk because of blacks, and there were other bars. There was a bar that I remember, there was a street that was parallel to Vestal Parkway, where the we passed by, where the Dean's house was, and there is still a lot of house there the dean. IG: 1:16:59 I think so [crosstalk] SW: 1:17:01 Continued down all the way, almost like Binghamton, before the bridges, there was like a bar, was a black bar, and they used to charge what was known as white tax for the beer. So like, if you were a black person, you paid x for the beer, and if you were a white kid like me, you would pay 2x for the beer. IG: 1:17:18 Yeah, that is like the sub the Soviet Union used to have a dual- SW: 1:17:23 Yeah, the friendship currents, yeah. I remember that, yeah. I remember the [inaudible] Street and going, yeah-yeah. Third speaker: 1:17:30 How was the campus then, like, were there any black students in the campus? Like- SW: 1:17:38 Very, actually, I only remember one. He was next. He was a- an exchange student from Kenya. Third speaker: 1:17:48 Africa, not America. SW: 1:17:49 Not an American. Like, no, I do not remember. Third speaker: 1:17:52 Not even one? SW: 1:17:52 I do not remember. I do not remember one look at the yearbook from (19)67 and (19)66 it is in the-the Alumni Center. I do not think, yeah, I do not, I do not remember any black students. No. IG: 1:18:03 Most of the students were from New York City, from Long Island. SW: 1:18:06 New York City and Long Island, yeah, and- Third speaker: 1:18:09 Like, when you compare boys versus girls, like, majority of them like boys, right? Not many women? SW: 1:18:18 No, there were a lot of girls there, you know? I mean, I did not seem like I was, I mean, I went Brooklyn Tech, where I went to high school as an old boy school. So it was so refreshing, because it was coed, yeah, but I did not feel that, that, that we outnumbered them by any significant amount, that would no there may have been, but I do not I in my subjective memory. No. Third speaker 1:18:19 No, yeah, I am asking how you remember. SW: 1:18:34 Yeah, no, I do not, I do not remember it being overwhelmingly male. No. SDS had a lot of SDS had a lot of girls in it. Actually, that was an attraction, but they had a lot of girls, and they were not subject to the draft, but there were a lot of girls there. IG: 1:19:06 So did you have any interaction with the, with, with, you know, the rest of the population in Binghamton? I mean- SW: 1:19:16 Services for Youth. IG: 1:19:17 Yeah-yeah, that is right, of course. SW: 1:19:20 I do not remember how the kids got involved with us. I remember there was a-a park. If you went into Binghamton, we took him to a park. there was a zoo in the park, and you went into Binghamton and went to the right, up this little hill, there was some park there. And in the park, there was a zoo. Yeah, Ross Park. IG: 1:19:20 It still exist. SW: 1:19:39 Yeah. I remember taking kids there. Yes, we were involved in them, but I do not remember where the kids came from. I do not remember, but yes, we were involved. And not all of the faculties supported the anti-war group, Kadish went to my apartment to a rally. Vasilew, who I, who I liked a lot, who was the one that gave me my comment that a girl would think twice before marrying someone like you, which is true. I understand that. I mean, you know, like saying, if a plate is broken, you can glue it together, but the cracks still there. You know, so, but anyways, but he, I remember, you know, as I remember talking about the draft, and he said, he-he actually, he had two sides to him. First, he has he, he thought that the draft was appropriate. He was liberal, and on the other hand, he was not sure if we should have gotten involved in World War Two. I remember him saying that. So, which is fine, because there is no right answer. You know, it is unlike you know, two and two and was, what is the answer? There is no right answer. IG: 1:19:40 There is no right answer. SW: 1:21:02 No there are right questions. And then you think about the answers. So, I mean, back then, I probably was not so kind as to his response, because I thought, you know, for World War Two, we were the good guys, and to Vietnam, we had no business being there. And it is black and white. And it was not until I became more mature that I realized there is no right answer, and Vietnam is definitely wrong. And should we get involved too? Well, I still think we should have but, but there is no right answer. IG: 1:21:28 So it, you know, again, looking back, do you think that this was among your happy the happy period? Speaker 1 1:21:46 Yes, absolutely, I am basically, I basically became a happy person when I left home. I mean, I have a mean, that is my personality. I mean, I just my wife sometimes calls me the happy idiot. I am not kidding. No, I get happy sometimes for no reason. I mean, I because I am lucky. I mean, life has been good to me. I mean, but, but that was definitely that there was a change. It was a change for me from a miserable childhood up until I left, to-to not, you know, not being subject to that misery. So, yeah, it was definitely very happy period. IG: 1:22:25 So you never really returned to your family. SW: 1:22:30 Well, my parents- IG: 1:22:30 Your parents were split up. SW: 1:22:32 They split. [crosstalk] My mother waited until I graduated high school, and then then my father moved to, uh, an apartment in also in Flush, in Flushing off Main Street. And my mother moved to place in the Bronx called Riverdale. And-and so they lived, you know, apart. And so no, there was no home to come to. So and then I said, I tried to avoid this. I mean, I visited my father, I thought I could stand him. And as I told you, the one time that he asked me to visit him, and I said no, and then the next day I came and he was dead. So then the guilt that I felt was, you know, it took me a long time to get over that, I know. Very nice. IG: 1:23:11 Yeah, I could imagine. SW: 1:23:12 Because I felt, well, what if I have been there, then I would call a doctor or something, you know, but it was no.t IG: 1:23:18 Yeah. SW: 1:23:18 And he had been dead already he was lying in the bathroom. IG: 1:23:20 Yeah. SW: 1:23:21 So, but no, the college years, it was-was turning out what happened I was happy in college, basically, other than the fear. But yes. IG: 1:23:34 So, what-what do you have any message for? You know, a future student, a future you know, listening to this tape, you know, 5-10, years from now, of how they should approach their undergraduate- SW: 1:23:50 I would say liberal arts. Take, take, take, English literature, foreign literature, world history, American history, science, just take, take as much varied material as you can. When I went to law school, all took was law, you know my friend who is now my friend again, Ira. You know, medicine, science and medicine. But in college, you could take everything, do it. You know you could, do not take pre-law and just take poli sci or pre-med and just take science, take other things, because that will make you better at everything. IG: 1:24:33 And for-for our politicians, for example, listening to this interview 5-10, years from now, do you have a message for them. SW: 1:24:41 Yes, invest in education, unless you feel that the only way you will stay in office is to have an uneducated society. But if you want to make society better, then you invest in education. You know, then you realize, look, when Obama made the statement, you did not build this. Remember, he made that statement. When he was trying to convey. And he conveyed the people who understood him, educated people that, you know, the transcontinental railway, the highways, the telephone poles, all the things that people did for next to nothing made it possible for the wealthy people to have their wealth. It did not just come out of nowhere. So wars that people fought, the good wars and the bad wars, or, you know, the infrastructure, everything that existed, that people got paid nothing, or that slaves built. So that is what he meant when he said that you did not build this. He did not mean, you know, you did not build your grocery store and it is not yours. He did not because they turned it on him, like Romney turned it on him. But an educated person would understand that and would appreciate it that if I am wealthy, I mean, that is great, but, I mean, why should not other people participate in the wealth of a nation that is wealthy? Why should it just be limited to excuse me as it could be my office? No, it is not okay. So that is what, yeah, so, so for politicians edgy, if you really believe in this country, then-then education. That is the thing to invest in the most, not take away from teachers' unions and-and get and not, you know, not have, like, charter schools, where with something, we have to compete for a good school, otherwise you are stuck. I mean, I told you my public-school education was great. I mean, I it was really good. I had good teachers who were, you know, got paid well or no standards, and were respected. They were not demonized. Like, like the governor Wisconsin demonized teachers. Of course you are going to demonize a teacher if, if the only way to keep your power is to have uneducated people, like-like, like Trump said he bragged about uneducated people voting for him he bragged about it, which is true. So that is preaching to the choir. IG: 1:27:06 Well, that is, it is preaching to the choir, of course, but other people may not be the choir listening to this. So and do you have any words for President Stinger? SW: 1:27:18 Right now? He is the president of Harpur. IG: 1:27:21 He is a president of the university. Would you like to impart any, any of your thoughts to him or a future president? SW: 1:27:32 Well, he should do his best to bring, bring back true community, learning, small classes in depth learning, having faculty and students meet in each other's places of residence, like we did at barbecues. And the barbecue is not just, you know, just eating and drinking, but the barbecue is also talking about your subject and other subjects and relating, relating economics and literature and science. I mean, when you get together to barbecue, talk about all sorts of things, I think that that is the key, and that is what made it so great. Like you said, it is like a small private college, although it was not, but that is the key. Small classes, intimate settings and the environment that encourages questioning and debate, you know, so it is not my country right or wrong, it is my country. Make it better. But you know, there is no right or wrong. You should not do it that way. And you know, your emotional baggage, you know, you know, I had a lot of emotional baggage, but when I got to college, I was able to put it in the overhead bin, in a little chair, and go about my business. So, you know, so that that is, that is the key, you know, learn to be able to the baggage away. IG: 1:28:50 Maybe it allowed you the freedom. SW: 1:28:53 Yes. IG: 1:28:53 You know, freedom from the emotional baggage. SW: 1:28:57 Yes. IG: 1:28:57 You could come back to it a different person. SW: 1:29:00 Yes, but I have a certain but, like my wife said, I am like, I am a happy idiot, and I get happy I just do, like, Vasilew was wrong. He said, You know, he thought that I would never, actually thought I would never be able to have I-I went out with a lot of girls than in life, and I did not. And I was somewhat mean. I mean, I was nice, but-but-but, you know, like, if when I was-was not interested anymore, that was it. IG: 1:29:29 Yeah. SW: 1:29:31 But, yeah, that is not the way to be. But the thing is, but I learned from it and- but then I evolved. I mean, I said when I got married, I mean, you know, I very happy with it, just he would, he did not think it would ever work, but it really did. Actually, I [inaudible], my wife and I actually visited him. IG: 1:29:52 And what did he say? Did he Did you remind him what he said? SW: 1:29:56 No, I do not talk about that. No, you know, he said, he said, "I see you are a successful lawyer." I said “Yes,” and we talked about that, okay, no-no, I was not going to. There is no reason too. No. And then they, you know, no, but that is, that is the price I would give and have other artifacts I could show you when, once we finish talking before you go. IG: 1:30:22 Well, I you know, do you have concluding, you know, thoughts, remarks, anything that you would like to explore? I think we covered a lot of ground. SW: 1:30:30 No, I think, no. I think it encouraged students, no, just encourage student involvement and student involvement in politics and make-make it known that why education is important. You kind of invest in education, small classes in education, or there is no guarantee that this country will remain a democracy. IG: 1:30:51 Yeah. SW: 1:30:52 That is not guaranteed. It is not guaranteed. IG: 1:30:54 There is no guarantee. SW: 1:30:55 No, and they could very well not. And with overreactions, with-with, you know, people like Bush taking us into Iraq and-and torture becoming a norm again. You know, Guantanamo indefinite detention when lunatic Trump becomes president. You know who, who brags about, you know, fondling women and talks about arresting his opponents and egomaniac and having these Republicans love him and the Christian right loving him. I mean, yeah, a real danger here. IG: 1:31:33 Yeah. SW: 1:31:34 And it could happen here. IG: 1:31:36 Yeah. SW: 1:31:36 And it might very well happen here. So the key is just that education to get the educated people to expand like, like, we sent people from Harpur College down to the south, as I said, I personally did not go, but I know people who did, and people from SDS went, send them out to do things. I am going to a bar association meeting with us tomorrow night. One of the things we are talking about is working with the Alabama and other bar associations to get ID cards. The voters will have trouble getting ID cards, getting photographed and paying for their ID cards so they and making sure they vote, because there is voter suppression, obviously in these states. So we are thinking as a Bar Association project, almost like a school project. IG: 1:32:19 That is wonderful. SW: 1:32:20 Yeah. So we are thinking of doing that. So we are talking about that tomorrow night, after which we are going to go to the Algonquin hotel and drink scotch. So you-you know, lawyers find that the more Scotch they drink, the more interesting other lawyers become. So-so we do that too, yeah. Yeah. So-so that is the key to get, to get them to go out. I mean, keep the have a close community, and when you are close and secure, then you could go out. IG: 1:32:50 Well, that is exactly what happened to you at the college, the close community. And once you- SW: 1:32:57 With that security. IG: 1:32:58 -security. SW: 1:32:59 Then you are able to go out when you are insecure and you look, you know, then it is hard to go forward. IG: 1:33:06 Yeah. SW: 1:33:06 But so that is what you need. And then have them go out, having to, you know, help with small things, voter ID, getting out to vote, getting people to vote, you know, they suppress it by I mean, when I go to vote, I wait. I wait for one minute. I do not wait. We have, we have, we have more voting places here than the small fee community than, you know, there they have one black communities down there. They have one book, one polling place. It is open from, you know, 9:00 am on a work day to 5:00 pm they went online for three hours. You are not going to want to do that. Well, you have to make them do they have to go out there. You give them food, you know, bring out coffee. Just do it. We went that, you know, I, as I said, I did not go down south, so I am not going to say did, but people went down there and, you know, and help you got to do that. You got get a mat so you made him secure. Then come out and expand, because we are all in the same boat, right? You know, saying that, you know, I am in a lifeboat with you, and I start drilling a hole under my seat, and you say to me, what are you doing? I said, Well, same boat. Yeah, so that is my word of wisdom. Anything else? IG: 1:34:16 I think? I think not. I think it is a great interview. Thank you very much. SW: 1:34:21 My pleasure. I will show you like one artifact. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Stephen Norman Weiss Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Weiss, Stephen Norman ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Stephen Norman Weiss is an attorney in New York specializing in Litigation, Patent and Trademark and Intellectual Property cases. He is managing partner at Stephen Norman Weiss Law Office, but currently semi-retired. He pursued a liberal arts education at Harpur College, which he believes was on par with an education from an elite private college. His JD is from New York Law School. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-11-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stephen Weiss.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-11-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 94:30 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ac183043a0a70487c674787765aa9449.jpg 652b25f161722e269d870e640a6484af https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9f6fb06c0c1f42e05dd4c4b54fcb4abe.mp3 b81d237ba176d76e899de5186968a79b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1997-07-25 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steve Gunderson, 1951- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Steve Gunderson is the former President and CEO of the Council on Foundations as well as the former Republican congressman from Wisconsin. Gunderson is currently President and CEO of the Association of Private Sector Colleges and Universities. After graduating from the University of Wisconsin–Madison, Gunderson went on to train at the Brown School of Broadcasting in Minneapolis."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4487,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"15":"Arial"}">Steve Gunderson is the former President and CEO of the Council on Foundations as well as the former Republican congressman from Wisconsin. Gunderson is currently President and CEO of the Association of Private Sector Colleges and Universities. After graduating from the University of Wisconsin–Madison, Gunderson went on to train at the Brown School of Broadcasting in Minneapolis. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Newt Gingrich; Generations; Activism; Civility; Young generation; Individuality; Robert Kennedy's funeral; Bob Dylan."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792}}">Baby boom generation; Newt Gingrich; Generations; Activism; Civility; Young generation; Individuality; Robert Kennedy's funeral; Bob Dylan. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 35:58 Subject LCSH Legislators—United States; Council on Foundations; Gunderson, Steve, 1951--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Steve Gunderson Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So Date of interview: 25 July 1997 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:02 SM: First question I want to ask you is a lot of the criticisms today, for example, I have heard Newt Gingrich oftentimes say it I have heard George will say it in some of his commentaries, and I have even read about it in some of the historical books that I read, that if we look at today's problems in America, there is sometimes there is a generalization that a lot of the problems go back to the boomer generation, the breakup of the American family, the increase in drugs in America, the lack of respect for authority, even sometimes the-the lack of civility between people will be placed back on the boomer generation by Boomer generation. I mean, those born between (19)46 and (19)64. What are your thoughts on that kind of thinking? That places the blame on our problems today to a generation? 00:50 SG: I think it is partially true. I think there are dynamics that were resolved with the baby boomers coming of age, that have profound long term generational effects, certainly, the lack of trust in institutions, the polarization of American politics, the willingness to question and take on authority and traditions, all of those important dynamics from the New Age and development years of the baby boomers. That, however, does not answer the more significant questions about the ability of American or international institutions to cope with a dramatically changing nature. 01:43 SM: This is where [audio cuts] [inaudible] reached her in many ways and personally reach. It's a follow up question to that. If you look at the year 1997. And as we're heading into the year 1998, if you could look at, again, this generation, which is just reaching 50, we hear the news a lot about Bill Clinton being you know, more than 46 being kind of the lead of the boomer generation. But what would you say are the accomplishments of the boomer generation thus far? If you were to look at this generation, knowing that they are just reaching the age of 50? 02:21 SG: I think there are some dramatic accomplishments. I think telecommunications and scientific breakthroughs during this generation’s history are more significant than any other generation in history of the world. You just look, you know at 100 different examples of that area. Second, I think here at home, this generation has had two profound effects. They have created an environmental sensitivity that did not exist before. And I think they have clearly created a fiscal sensitivity in terms of the federal government's ability to match income and revenues without [inaudible] allocations. 03:15 SM: The top of that question, if you were to list some of the adjectives, some of the qualities that you think are the positive qualities of boomers, and then list three or four, their negative qualities, and trying to evaluate them, based on your lifetime, when you were young, maybe as you changed over the years, and how you feel now, but looking at the qualities that they may have compared to say, the World War II generation and even today's younger generation, 03:43 SG: Ambitious, motivated, driven goal setting which more so than the generation before us and the generation after us. At the creative side, we also made the regeneration, which is more selfish, which is more consumption oriented or sensitive to appreciation of the arts and culture, community. Throughout the liberal arts generation were educated to be. 04:22 SM: How about the area of passion? One of the things it is like, you know, when you look at the boomer generations made up 65-70 million, I am sure the final the exact number, but they will say that 15 percent were really involved in some sort of activism, could have been conservative activism could be liberal, but basically 15 percent. I interviewed Todd Gitlin in New York two days ago, and he said, let us break it down to 1 percent activism because really only 200,000 of the true activists at that time, leading protests against the war, ending the battle, the civil rights and so forth. Your thoughts on that kind of? 04:58 SG: Oh, I think we were much more activist generations at the expense of our personal families and human community lives. You can look at the percent that was involved in the war, but they taught the other elements of our society. You see activism today in many different areas, you see it in the religious and social right, you see it the women's movement, you see it in the gay and lesbian movement, you see it in the black history and culture movement. Almost all of this is driven by baby boomers who are affected and taught what activism meant, as they grew up. Even if they were not active in their active classroom when I was done an act of history in Vietnam. There is no I would not say I have not been an activist. Right. 05:43 SM: Right. And you would not ever have tried to find so closely that activism is like the liberal left. 05:49 SG: No. I think- 05:50 SM: -That sometimes that is what they portray activism is left of center, as opposed to right of center. Knowing your history, a lot of people involved in the Goldwater movement, were- 06:00 SG: More activism on the right today than on the left. 06:05 SM: How do you feel about people who try to place labels on activism and activism, again, which was supposed to be a quality of the boomer generation, and whether they carried it on as they have gotten older, is a negative quality. I say this because this past week, I interviewed Ron Castile, former DEA of Philadelphia, who was a diehard conservative, and now he is a judge. And he says, do not ever put up the term activism on me even though when he was a college student, he was active on some issues. And also, as he has gotten older, he was responsible for putting the Vietnam Memorial together in Philadelphia, you know, he did something but he that label, that term is seems to have a negative connotation, some people. 06:45 SG: Well, in terms of histories, and the truth is he is an activist, the truth is the [inaudible] even Christian coalition are activists. The truth is that there are many different activists and social and political right. 07:04 SM: I go many directions here in all interviews, I have about 40 Questions from then I have about 100 of them, really. And one of them is that I deal with students’ day in and day out, and you met many. And when you visit our campus, it is interesting that when they look at people from our generation, no matter who they are, what they represent, they will tend to place them into two categories. And there does not seem to be anything in between. Number one is I wish I had lived when you live, there were so many issues. I mean, life seemed exciting. They were tough things and the war in Vietnam and civil rights. And then many of the movements came about the gay and lesbian movement, the women's movement, the Native American movement, the environmental movement, I wish I could have lived then when all these things are happening. And then the other attitude is I am sick of hearing it. I am sick of hearing about the nostalgia all up all the boomers are you live as in the past, you remember the memories of this, this movement and that movement? And the- you know, we have our own problems today, we have our own issues. And so, the issues then are no longer applicable. What are your thoughts on that, and how we can best reach today's young people when they have those kinds of, those kinds of attitudes? 08:10 SG: To restore that one generation and the next role as part of it is parent child. Part of it is there is a basic historical and cultural transition that occurs from one generation to the next. And some of that is simply irreconcilable. So, I am not sure that we can reach him there to question in the mode in which we can reach in his own civility, if we can find ways to be more civil in our discourse and in our activism. And I think that is what really turns off the young people is not a passion to identify and solve problems, but it is the lack of civility that which our generation addresses those issues. 08:54 SM: Would you talk a little bit more about the civility and whether boomers who it's like, there seemed to be at that time and in your face, attitude, you're never going to satisfy the demands that many of the activists had, and whether that's been able to be transferred as people have gotten older. Some people will say they even see it in the halls of Congress of which- 9:14 SG: Oh, sure. 9:15 SM: -You were there and-and people just cannot be civil. And it goes back to those times is like pointing fingers and arguing and not listening. And you are the reason why we have all the problems in the world. As you know that kind of- 09:27 SG: The problem for my generation is that passion was identified as confrontation in reverse. There was no such thing as a moderate opponent to the Vietnam War. Alteration became the regiment of passivity rather than a compliment of style. And so, as a result of that we have learned and carried with us unfortunately, with the way we display our passion on any issue today is to be loud, confrontational and too often rude. 10:08 SM: How is that affecting today's young people, I do not want - 10:11 SG: It is a turn off. It is a great American turnoff, because they increasingly look at both the style and the issues by which we take passion to that degree endeavor I can identify, it is why they turn off the government. It's why they turn on to volunteerism during your generation did not want to debate issues. 10:41 SM: This leads into another area and that is at 50, which is the oldest the front of the door movement, realizing these potential negative qualities that you have raised about the boomers. can things be turned around in terms of can boomers ever change who they are, as they get older, in order for us to be life is supposed to be constantly changing? We teach students day in and day out that you are constantly evolving and developing. 11:06 SG: Oh, yeah. 11:07 SM: So, it can, for example, what happened in congress this past week with someone who Gingrich's closest people kind of stabbing him in the back it was, was amazing scenario. 11:16 SG: But-but the truth is that that is a classic example of where people are motivated simply by politics, rather than by policy. And but he goes in by passion, you are going to have those kinds of dynamics. It is also why the general public, not just the generation expert, the general public, totally tunes out to what is going on Capitol Hill. They were not only increasingly irrelevant, as government's percent of participation in society decreases, but also, when they see the styles of people though they do not want to be relevant to the water we associate with that. But on the other hand, I think we correct this issue because any generation as it ages mellows out, and also, they just historic that the generation often returns to its roots. And as a result of that, I think you will see the baby boomers, find a new interest in community, and neighborhoods. And, frankly, volunteering the day-to-day problems of their fellow man. 12:28 SM: Activism back in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, was basically define defined into two major categories. Of course, it was the Civil Rights Movement, and it was the war against Vietnam. And of course, then a lot of the other movements evolved from the Civil Rights Movement, the movements that we talked about earlier. Today, there is a lot of different kinds of activism. There's activism on the internet, there is, there is all kinds of different things and that, but it's not geared toward one major happening like the war. Could you comment on two things? Number one, how important were the college students in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, in terms of ending the war in Vietnam? This seems to be a controversy with the people I have interviewed that some say they had no influence at all, others say they had a lot of influences. How important were the students on college campus in the war, and how- 13:22 SG: They were very important because they not only affected change themselves, they affected a nation's perception. The reason that others weighed in against the world was because their consciousness had been raised by college kids. 13:36 SM: That was the point blank asked you, what is the number one reason why the war ended? In Vietnam? What would that one reason be? 13:46 SG: American exhaustion, fighting at home, we were tired of fighting over there. We were tired of being in a war that was recently difficult to determine who was right who was wrong and was winning was losing. And we in essence, decided just plain to come home. 14:04 SM: Looking at the Civil Rights Movement, how important were the boomers in that movement, knowing that in the summer of (19)64, which is really Freedom Summer when the oldest Boomer would have been 18 years old in the summer of (19)64. And a lot of great civil rights efforts has been the late (19)50s through that time period of (19)64. How important were the young people of that era in terms of assisting carrying on the message of the Civil Rights Movement? 14:36 SG: I think in many ways they were the people's army rallying to their leaders call whether it be Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy, whoever it was we were in many ways the troops, but you were certainly not the leaders. 14:57 SM: As you have gotten older and you know, the war ended, and certainly the-the draft was no longer a problem. So many people thought that, well, since that ended, there is really no more cause anymore. And that was what it was all about. But when you when you look at people of your age group now who are close to 50 have been carried on the idealism of that time have, they carried on in their lives now some people have, but your thoughts on that. 15:25 SG: We are a much more driven and materialistic generation; we are an idealistic generation. That has probably been a great transition for the ideals of our young adulthood. To the deals of our business, and professional experiences. 15:47 SM: That caught me the other end. [chuckles] To me, money is real secondary. I thought, when I was young, and the people I was around, we were going to go into the service professions and serve others. Money was secondary, any, any the friends that are going to go to law school, and they were going to go right back to the university, some went on to be very successful corporate lawyers, but so you do not think the majority of the people really carried that the money was secondary as- 16:13 SG: Well. I mean, I think you have seen that in the increasing apathy of the American people. You have elections for less than a half vote, and you look at who those people are. People that are not voting are the young and baby boomer generations. 16:31 SM: Even statistics are astonishing about how many of the college aged students voted, I just cannot believe we have almost begged students to vote, or we have a voter registration drive, we get about three or 400 registered, but it is not easy. What is in it for me, you know, that kind of an attitude. That is another thing, that quality, that an activist is never supposed to say what is in it for me, an activist is supposed to say I want to serve others, or something for the betterment of society. And you think that most of the mountain a great majority of boomers have taken that quality of what is in it for me mentality, which is the total alien nature of what an activist truly is? 17:10 SG: Well, I think we are a selfish generation, motivated by money and our own economic standing. But I will also say that we have also witnessed the selfishness of our parents’ generation, its- their demands on the government. And so, while we are selfish, we are not selfishly demanding of government to take care of us, we are rather preoccupied on a personal basis to deal with our own economics. 17:42 SM: Did you change your thoughts on this generation over the years, say, when you were in college, and then 10 years out of college 15, 20. Now or 25, or whatever, have you been pretty consistent in your attitudes toward your generation? Or was there a point in your life you saw an awakening and your point of view just totally changed? 18:07 SG: I am using doubt in my opinion of our generation has changed, that we use as a classic example. Through this line by Robert Kennedy used in graduation speeches in colleges and high schools across the country at that time, which was some people see things as they are and ask why I dream things that never were and ask why not? You have not heard that use the last 20 years. You have not heard it used because there are no dreams anymore. People, there are no ideals anymore. People have been much more consumed by their own personal day to day than the greater good. That was driven by Kennedy statements. I mean, I remember as a college student the day Kennedy, the day Kennedy, Robert Kennedy's funeral, going home from college, and listening to that funeral all the way home in the radio. It was not just me it was everybody in the car. I got the record of Robert Kennedy's funeral. There is no way my generation would listen to or buy a record of a US senator’s funeral today. 19:25 SM: You are right. 19:28 SG: Dramatic change. 19:30 SM: In your- Why-why did this happen? 19:38 SG: Um, I think it is a combination. On the one hand, it is a growing disaffection with government and the government's ability to make change. I think second it is a simple reality that most as they moved into adulthood, and family life, became the responsible providers of the family as opposed to the social activists that they have been in their youth. So, I think it is a combination too. Third, I am going to go so far as to say, it is also a lack in the last 20 years of inspirational leaders. 20:17 SM: There is a real good point because I even hear that among African American students in terms of trying to who are the leaders within the African American community. And of course, Jesse Jackson is the one name that always comes forward. But he is older, he is like 55 years old, so-so they see him a sense and another-another going back a rappers with Chuck D people that are on the radio and they were really Sister Souljah people like that is what they are identifying to. They are not leaders, their personalities in the media or in the music world, or something like that. I find that amazing that boomers are inspired by the Bob Dylan's of the world, and you know, the music of the year. But like you say, you also admire the political leaders, you do not see a whole lot of that. Very good observation. Wha- one term that is often used when I was young, and I do not know if you heard it around your peers, but that we are the most unique generation in American history that we are going to be the change agents for the betterment of society. And we thought that when we go into a rally, or we are in an auditorium listening to a speaker of that period on a college campus, and whether that attitude was an arrogance on the part of the young at that time thinking that it was going to carry on, that seems to be a term that I heard all the time, I want to know if you heard that when you were young- 21:34 SG: Sure. 21:35 SM: -That we are unique, and that no other generation before us, and certainly none that will follow will ever be like us. And this goes beyond just the numbers game, which is- 21:43 SG: Well, I think I think certainly, we all grew up believing we were different than anyone before us. I do not know that we would go so far as to see what would include generations after us. 21:55 SM: Another quality of youth then more than anything that you need that [inaudible]. 22:01 SG: Well, yeah, because part of what we were doing is we were we were rejecting the status quo of American society. And we knew that we were going to be dramatically changing the status quo. But we were not so naive as to suggest that would not also be done by future generations against us. 22:22 SM: Just a straight point question. We are the biggest generation ever. There may never be another one that vigorousness again, believe I wrote an article last week, so we had 76 million I never knew we had that many in the boomer generation. But what is the most significant? Again, it might be a repetition of an earlier question but what made the generation different beyond their size? 22:50 SG: Their view of the world, their view of the United States, first generation that did not want America to be the superpower. 23:02 SM: Melodramatic flaws here. [chuckles] Good observation. 23:11 SG: Just so you know. I am happy to call you next week and finish. I am real sensitive to time here. I have promised somebody at University of Alabama we would be back to them by 230. And I can miss that for a little bit. 23:26 SM: Are you okay through 2:30? 23:28 SG: No, I have got a draft a letter to get to them. That is what I my concern is, can we go 15 minutes, to 2:20. Cut it off. 23:34 SM: And yet, you want me to come back? Like- 23:38 SG: She thought this was going to be half an hour so. 23:42 SM: Oh, she did. 23:43 SG: Yeah. 23:43 SM: Oh. 1 to 2:30. That was a little late too. 23:46 SG: Hour and a half today. I mean, I am happy to call you, if that works. To save you a trip or if you're back in town. I am happy to fish it up. My problem is [audio cuts] 23:55 SM: Okay, right. I do want to take a picture. 23:59 SG: I apologize for that. But this is unpredicted. 24:03 SM: Do you feel the boomer generation is having problems with healing and I raised this because of the fact that the Vietnam memorial was built with the hope that it would heal the generation, it would heal the nation, it would heal the veterans? Where do you feel we stand right now in the area of healing in this nation and knowing that the divisions in that era were so, so wide? Because people were for and against the war, people got involved with Civil Rights Movements. They thought civil disobedience was a precursor to riots, just your thought about the healing processes in America since that time. 24:39 SG: I do not know that Americans know the importance or value of healing anymore. I do not think it is a goal. I do not think reconciliation is a goal. I do not think mutual respect is a goal. I think all of this is a result of the increasing polarization of a nation of society in the increasing cynicism about our institutions, and the combination of the two, produce an attitude which says everybody else claims to be the victim. So, I must be the victim too. You know we’re each a different victim. You're that academic victim, you are that wasp, male, Father, victim of middle America, I am that gay victim, patties that woman's victim, somebody's the black victim, everybody's a victim. 25:38 SM: How would you define the generation gap from that era between the boomer generation of their parents and today's boomers and their children, you are to define the two generation gaps. 25:51 SG: I think our generation better understand the role and temporary importance of generation gaps. And so, I do not think the gap is as great between us and the next generation as it was between our parents’ generation and us, because for parents’ generation had a much more difficult time understanding the dramatically different visions. Because we had a generation gap with our parents that were better at minimizing the generation gap between us in the next generation. 26:31 SM: What will be the lasting legacy of the boomer generation when the best history books are written and say 50 years from now, your thoughts on what they will be saying, many of us will be long gone. How do you think historians will look at this period? And by this period, I mean, when we were young, the (19)60s early (19)70s impact on America. And as they some of the things you referred to earlier, the qualities they took over. 26:55 SG: It is the generation that broke down all the barriers in the world, and broke down the political boundaries, and said that, frankly, they do not matter. We broke down cultural boundaries, we broke down the communications boundaries. In many ways, we break it down into the language, and the economic boundaries, certainly through trade. This generation more than any other generation has made the world a smaller place and increasingly interdependent. 27:25 SM: When I took students to meet Senator Muskie before he died by two years before he died. And we put a question about the impact of 1968 on America. And the divisions were many of the boomers had an equality at least, which is still a lack of respect for authority even as they have gone into adulthood, people like that, who they report to, and so forth. It was getting into the issue of healing again, and he basically said that we have not healed since the Civil War. And he talked about two different Americans before and after the Civil War. The question I am getting at is this. Do you feel this generation boomers because of the divisions of those times have a real serious healing comparable to the Civil War where there were such divisions in America and they went to their grave of bitterness toward the other side? You think this is an issue with many boomers that there is this feeling within their suffering, something missing because they never forgave a lot of Vietnam veterans maybe never forgave the protestors. Protestors feel guilty that they did not serve, but there is- 28:23 SG: No one can minimize the impact of Vietnam on our generation or society. I would not attempt to do that. I do, however, think that there is a big difference. And I would disagree with Senator Muskie. 28:39 SM: Keeping time to- 28:42 SG: I appreciate it. I think that to be honest, technology did not allow the kind of national consciousness that occurred in this country until before World War II. Before that people really did not care what happened day to day in the world or even in Washington, because then find out about it for days to come. They were much more consumed by their own community. And we are the first generation that the majority of kids growing up will not be employed in their home community. When I talked to young people now, I said, the majority of your class probably will not be employed in the US. I mean, there is a dramatic change of that local consciousness there. So, I would disagree a little bit with Senator Muskies’ basis. 29:31 SM: Three important quality and that is the issue of trust in America. I want to know if you feel one of the qualities of the boomer generation that they will be carried to their graves is the quality or lack of trust. They have in their leaders and refer to it earlier, kind of created a consensus cynicism as America. And just your overall thoughts on the cynical leadership that has happened throughout the lives of boomers. And will they be able to overcome that as well? 30:01 SG: No. Because the only way they could overcome that is if Social Security and Medicare would be without any challenges in their retirement years so that they would be able to live totally economic security and comfort. And they are not going to be able to do that. Also, what you are going to have is you are going to have an increasing two class society, not only among the young and the working, but also among the elderly. You are going to have those elderly who had the ability to either put things away or have great inherent inheritances, and you are going to have the majority who did not, and they are going to be bitter, they're going to say life was unfair to me. Now, my retirement is unfair to me as well. 30:43 SM: In the area of empowerment, which we always try to deal with young people, the sense that your voice counts that when you are working with college students, we need to hear your voice, that empowerment is something we try to develop in people so that as they go online, they are heard their voice counts. Your thoughts on the concept that many boomers felt of sense of empowerment, when they, you know, gets the major issues of the day, the war, civil rights and the movements we talked about. Whether they carry that sense of empowerment into their lives. And whether you feel today's young people have a sense of empowerment, that they are really being listened [audio cuts]. model that we try to work with college students about is developing self-esteem that in [inaudible] trying to work on that. So, your, just your thoughts on that concept of empowerment that so many of the boomers had, and where that may have gone. 31:42 SG: I do not think in the area of high technology and individualism, that you can create group empowerment. And certainly, you cannot create the feeling of generational power. Very difficult for a person growing up with a personal computer, somehow understand how they and everybody else their age are going to make a cumulative difference. 32:04 SM: Does that apply to boomers themselves as they hit 50? Certainly, you as a congressperson felt empowered. 32:11 SG: I think, I think we as a generation, were empowered by our impact on Vietnam. We were empowered by our ability to impact the environmental policies in this country. We were powered by our numbers. So, there were there were signs that gave us reason to be empowered. I do not know if those signs continue, however, as we become almost disseminated into increasingly polarized society. I do not think the- a bond which unites us today is not the bond of our generation. 32:55 SM: When you look back at your life? What was the first one experience, one happening that had the greatest impact on your life? What was that one happening? 33:06 SG: [inaudible] the two. I would have to say, John Kennedy's assassination as a teenager, when they close the school down, and everyone was glued to the TV for four days, or we had a National Day of Mourning as a big impact on a young person. The second was landing on the moon. Vividly, we landed on the moon, watch that on TV. And that was the victory of science and high technology, which-which told our generation that we were a part of something far different than the nation in the world's history. 33:52 SM: What did those two experiences, how do they affect you as you moved on until right now, when you when you saw that assassination of John Kennedy, what did that do to you? And then as you grew up, I am going to do something to make the world better, what-what was the date, did those two experiences really- 34:12 SG: Well, they are, they are, significant for very different reasons. Kennedy's assassination in the events which follow led to a distrust or lack of reliance on the government to my generation. It- everybody produces Vietnam as the beginning of the cynicism. I think they minimize the impact of Kennedy's assassination, the underlying foundation for that cynicism and government. On the other hand, the landing on the moon talks all about technology. And it is, it is so dramatically different from this small town I visited or visited I grew up in, where people did not leave their counties say nothing of leaving their globes. Where you communicated through the operator at the local telephone station not through technology thousands, hundreds of thousands of miles away. I mean, like, what a disconnect. And then we sat and watched TV, which took us from that generation of a past where we were sitting in our living rooms with our parents, to the generation of the future we saw it on television that day. That was the bridge between here and here. 35:44 SM: I got many more questions. I think-think we will cut off here and what I will do is, I will either come back to Washington because I am making three or four more trips down here this summer or call you on the phone at times convenient because the rest of the [audio cuts]. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 1 Microcassette Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Steve Gunderson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gunderson, Steve, 1951- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Legislators—United States; Council on Foundations; Gunderson, Steve, 1951--Interviews Description An account of the resource Steve Gunderson is the former President and CEO of the Council on Foundations as well as the former Republican congressman from Wisconsin. Gunderson is currently President and CEO of the Association of Private Sector Colleges and Universities. After graduating from the University of Wisconsin–Madison, Gunderson went on to train at the Brown School of Broadcasting in Minneapolis. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1997-07-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.58 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 35:58 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/40f31bf002884775d26855b70ef32fb6.jpg a3f7d9d2212eb2508bdb01c39ee2eb97 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b414833457a6c72673270c6c041f5510.mp3 2080ed5ad83ffb3421638e98e06ce630 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-04-23 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steven R. Shapiro Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Steven R. Shapiro is an attorney and educator. He is the former legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union, the nation's oldest and largest civil liberties organization. Shapiro also taught taught at Stanford Law School, and the NYU School of Law and he is currently a lecturer in Law at Columbia University. He has a Bachelor's degree from Columbia University and a Law degree from Harvard University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15107,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16317180],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Steven R. Shapiro is an attorney and educator. He is the former legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union, the nation's oldest and largest civil liberties organization. Shapiro also taught at Stanford Law School, and the NYU School of Law and he is currently a lecturer in Law at Columbia University. He has a Bachelor's degree from Columbia University and a Law degree from Harvard University. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 92:27 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Activism; War draft; NAACP; Civil Rights Movement; Brown v. Education; segregation; Baby boom generation; Assassination of John. F Kennedy; Earth Day; Gaylord Nelson; Lawyers; The financial crisis."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Activism; War draft; NAACP; Civil Rights Movement; Brown v. Education; segregation; Baby boom generation; Assassination of John. F Kennedy; Earth Day; Gaylord Nelson; Lawyers; The financial crisis. Subject LCSH Lawyers; Lecturers; American Civil Liberties Union; Shapiro, Steven R.--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Steve Shapiro Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Shapiro, Steven R. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Lawyers; Lecturers; American Civil Liberties Union; Shapiro, Steven R.--Interviews Description An account of the resource Steven R. Shapiro is an attorney and educator. He is the former legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union, the nation's oldest and largest civil liberties organization. Shapiro also taught at Stanford Law School, and the NYU School of Law and he is currently a lecturer in Law at Columbia University. He has a Bachelor's degree from Columbia University and a Law degree from Harvard University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-04-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.113 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 92:27 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4badaee07d692d2b4b93ac2f54f5a7f9.mp3 5df77c50a2aa7e3e4fc79488889921bd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-03-01 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steven M. Weiss Year of Graduation 1970 Biographical Text Steven Mark Weiss is the president of Straightforward Communications, a marketing and research consultancy in consumer demography and trends. His clients have included Hilton Hotels, Denny’s and the California Department of Agriculture. A magna cum laude graduate of Binghamton University and of the Culinary Institute of America, Steve spent the early part of his career as the executive food & beverage editor of Restaurants & Institutions magazine. His work earned him a Jesse Neal award for editorial excellence from the American Business Media. For nearly a decade he was the regular columnist of QSR Magazine. He is also an award-winning journalist with 25 years’ experience as a marketing and management consultant to the food service industry. Steve resides in Scottsdale, Arizona, and serves as vice president of the Arizona Society of Astrologers. He has written books on astrology, including Signs of Success, which represents his lifetime avocational interest in astrology. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College - Seventies alumni; Harpur College - Alumni in the food industry; Harpur College - Alumni living in Phoenix, AZ; Harpur College - Alumni in astrology; Harpur College - Alumni in journalism Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Steven M. Weiss Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 1 March 2019 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SW: 00:02 I am Steven Weiss Harpur College, class of (19)70. I am in Phoenix, Arizona, and I am being interviewed by Irene Gashurov for the for the Binghamton Library Archives. Nope. Okay. Well, start again. [inaudible] IG: 00:26 It is for the Binghamton alumni. It is going to be an audio a collection of audio recordings with alumni from the (19)60s and early (19)70s. SW: 00:42 All right [crosstalk] IG: 00:44 Sixties collection [crosstalk] yes, I do, I do. Okay, so let us start from the beginning. Where did you- you said you grew up in Brooklyn. SW: 00: 53 I grew up in Rigo Park in Queens. Went to Forest Hills High School. I was born in Brooklyn. IG: 00: 57 I see, I see. So, who were your parents? What did they do? Do they encourage your education? SW: 01:08 Yeah, I think I was. We were in a culture where education was valuable. IG: 01:12 Yeah. SW: 01:13 My father was an executive in the camera and photography industry. Worked for a variety of companies, and my mother was a housewife. IG: 01:26 Are you one of several children, or? SW: 01:29 I am an only. IG: 01:29 You are an only. SW: 01:30 Yes. IG: 01:31 You are an only- so you went to Forest Hills High School? How did you decide to go to Harpur College? SW: 01:41 Do you know, on one level, it was as simple as being an affordable college, but-but that that denigrates or plays down the fact that it was considered a good college, even, even back in the (19)60s, I remember a New York Times article that everyone liked to quote, that that Harpur was the public Swarthmore, that that got a lot of play on the campus at that time and-and so. So, the idea I-I had in my mind to perhaps go to Tufts and in Massachusetts, but, but really, for a lot of people of my generation and our socio-economic class, you went to either Harpur or you went to Stony Brook, yeah, Harpur, if you were interested in liberal arts, Stony Brook, more for science. SW: 01:42 More for science. That is that is interesting. So, did you have a clear idea of what you wanted to study? SW: 02:32 Until-until my freshman English class, I did. I-I had intended to go to Harpur and study political science with-with the notion that I would go into law, because that was that was appropriate at the time. But my freshman English teacher changed everything about my life. SW: 02:49 Let us hear about it. Who was the freshman English teacher? SW: 02:49 My freshman English teacher was Zach Bowen, who was an eminent James Joyce scholar, and in fact, he eventually moved from Harpur to become the chairman of the department of the English department the University of Delaware. And then from there, after several years, he went to the University of Miami in Florida and became their chairman. But-but Zach was a- anyone from my generation who encountered Zach, he was an enormous, jolly, wise, funny man, and for better or for worse, he took a liking to me to my work. And when I told him that I was going to major in political science, he sort of laughed at me and said, "No-no, you are an English major." [laughter] IG: 03:38 That is great. SW: 03:39 He put me in that direction. IG: 03:40 So, he claimed you as one of his own. SW: 03:44 I think that is a very good, apt way of putting it, yes. IG: 03:47 So, what kind of mind-expanding things did you learn in that, you know, with this professor? What-what did you learn? SW: 03: 56 I hope this is not too much of a segue, but you know, to think about I have been thinking about this because I know I was going to have this, this moment with you and-and I realized that it is, it is, it is obvious that we want to abstract generalities that make sense. You know, generational, generationally and collectively. But my generation, we were so individualistic, for better or for worse, that that, you know, it was part of the tapestry right of life. So-so-so I responded to Zach because he was totally avuncular and smart and funny, and a guy that I that I admired immediately, and it looked like what he was doing was fun. And so, there is that, there is that personality context where a young man looking for-for examples, not-not idols. Idols is too strong a word, but people [crosstalk] or just people that you could, you could model behavior on. You know that, oh, I could be this guy someday, and Zach was, Zach was that for me. But then there is also the-the coursework itself, being exposed to things like the Odyssey and the Aeneid and some of the, you know, some of the earlier classical literature. I believe we read some, if I am not mistaken, we read some classical Greek tragedy, and immediately that captivated me, and as captivated me my entire life. IG: 05:21 Right. SW: 05:22 Mythology. IG: 05:23 Have you studied different kinds of mythologies? SW: 05:27 I was, it turned out that I was not really an academic at heart, although I did have a I had a teaching assistantship. I was working on my Master's at Binghamton as well. I did very well in school, and I took, I took coursework very seriously, but, but another teacher who had an influence on me was a was an associate professor by the name of Betsy Oswald, who is a talented novelist, and she was teaching, she was my first writing teacher, and between Zach and Betsy-Betsy-Betsy convinced me that I was, I was cut out for writing, and so I found out that I was more of a journalist than I was a scholar. So-so not that I ever turned my back on mythology, but I did not choose to pursue the mythology as a as a career aspiration, the writing became more of an aspiration. IG: 06:16 That is wonderful that you discovered it so early in your life, right? SW: 06:23 I had been writing for, for, you know, for, I am the sort of guy who was in grade school, was writing for the other school magazines. I would always been writing. But I needed someone to confirm that that was something that one did, that it was okay to be what to aspire to be a journalist or to be a writer, and I think I needed someone to say, yeah, that is okay. "Yeah, that is what your talent is, and that is what your desires do it." IG: 06:47 I mean, did you become a journalist after that? SW: 06: 50 Yes-yes. I, well, I decided that that in order to be after my, after my-my Harpur, my Binghamton years, I felt that in order to be a journalist, I needed to have a specialty. That it was not just another I was not a general assignment reporter, and one of my lifelong interests was, is food. I come from a Jewish, Italian family, that is all we are interested in. So, I went to the Culinary Institute of America and got a chef's training yes in Hyde Park, New York, and put culinary and journalism together. And I spent several years as a as an editor of a major restaurant publication out of Chicago. IG: 07:33 Wow. SW: 07:35 Restaurants and institutions were- IG: 07:37 So, you were food critic? SW: 07:38 I was a food critic here in Phoenix for a while, but mostly I was, I was a I was working in the business press, as far as the restaurant and food industry went, so I was rather than, rather than a critic. I was, I was, let us say, an ally. I was more interested in what made a restaurant great than-than judging whether it was great. IG: 08:01 How do you mean, how it is sale, it is revenues, and- SW: 08:07 Yes, exactly, or-or as what became my, what became my major interest was, in fact, marketing and-and-and analysis of dietary habits and preferences you are looking this-this book is that kind of a book. For seven or eight years, I was the executive food editor of a magazine called restaurants and institutions, which was the largest, largest trade publication in the restaurant industry. So, I my job was to find out what they were doing and how they did it, and if they were willing to share with other restaurateurs. And I had a pretty international beat on that, so I got to go and eat a lot of great places and stay in a lot of great places. IG: 08: 52 What are among your I mean, we are veering off topic, but this is, personally so interesting. So, what- so when-when was this period of work. When did it take place in the- SW: 09:04 The period of work was from about 1975 after I graduated the Culinary Institute of America, to about 1981. IG: 09:11 Okay. SW: 09:12 When I moved down here. IG: 09:14 When you moved in 1981 so, you reviewed, you reviewed, you know successful New York restaurants. Do you any, any stand out in your mind? SW: 09:25 Oh, absolutely. [crosstalk]I do not want to the honest truth is that the great, the greatest restaurant company, probably that ever existed in New York, at least during my-my lifetime, was Restaurant Associates, and they were the company that did the Four Seasons and Forum of the 12 Caesars and-and the really great restaurants of their time. And the general, the gentleman who was responsible, you know, who led that company was, his name was Joe Baum, and Joe did all of these restaurants. And then he kind of just disappeared from the scene, and all of a sudden, his name came up attached to a project which was called the World Trade Center. And I so I called, I called Joe, because I knew him a little bit. I said, "Look, you know, you are a great restaurateur, and this is really interesting, what you are doing here." So, I made my-my reputation in the restaurant industry, writing an enormous article, I wrote one of the first articles about the integrated restaurant. I concept behind the World Trade Center, from the from the top that from the top of the building, to- IG: 10:33 Windows on the world. SW: 10:34 -windows on the world--got married there as a matter of fact—and-and to-to the marketplace, which was the concourse area, to the sky lobbies, which had restaurants on the 44th floor, but it was a very brilliant, integrated restaurant system. That is the sort of thing I wrote about. How did you- how does someone possibly create and then manage and run this kind of restaurant? So-so like on the on the on the creative level, the people like James Beard were coming in to-to brainstorm and-and then-then the actual building and running of it was another fascinating story, interesting to my readers. IG: 11:12 Right-right, no, interesting, interesting to any reader. And James Beard was brought in to consult on the menu, or? SW: 11:20 Yes, in fact, Joe Baum was a brilliant, brilliant man. The restaurant industry misses him, but he would, he would invite, invite James Beard into his office and just let James Beard free associate about what American cuisine should be, what American upscale cuisine, and he would talk, he would talk about, I have listened to some of these tapes. He would talk about brioche, lighter than air, floating off into the into this sky, and it was fantasy, but, but, but Joe and his people were plugged into this, and they just used it as an inspiration for- IG: 11: 51 Did the windows on the world have brioche? SW: 11: 54 I do not know [crosstalk] everything in its time. It had everything. IG: 11: 58 I forget what it had. I-I was there a couple of times, but I- SW: 12:02 Well, it was not just the fabulous, was not just the fabulous windows on the world, which was several restaurants, from the windows on the world to the Cellar in the Sky, which was the wine cellar restaurant. Then they had something called the Hors d'Oeuvreriewhich was just all hors-d'oeuvres, international hors-d'oeuvres. But on the lobby was, was just as interesting, on the on the main core concourse of the World Trade Center, they had something called the Big Kitchen. And the Big Kitchen was like the prototype for all of the for every, you know, casual fast-food concept that ever existed, but it was high scale. So, there was a bakery there, there was a there was a grill, there was a hamburger place. This one of the first places in America that ever had [crosstalk] and next to the Big Kitchen was a restaurant called the Market. And the Market was a, was a was in honor of all of the fresh food and produce in New York. So, every day, the chefs would go out and they would buy the best fish or meat or vegetables they could find. And all the menus were handwritten because it was that fresh. And that was that was that was ahead of time too. IG: 13:03 That was ahead of its time. Was very ahead of its time. It is, it is extremely interesting. It is extremely interesting. Were there any was there any connection? Do you know that the site of the former world trade, World's Fair in Flushing Meadow Park also has kind of a similar setup to Windows on the World? I mean, it also has sort of, you know, but it is a much smaller scale. Was it by the same proprietary or you know- SW: 13:36 Restaurant Associates was involved—It is funny you would mention that goes, I grew up in Queens on the 14th floor of an apartment building that looked over the World Fair site, the world that whole, you know, I used to watch the aggregated in the summer. We watched the shows and the fireworks. But the that-that World's Fair the first one, not the one in 1964 but the but the original. I want to, I want to put the date. It was the 1964 World's Fair, but that was the first time in the time in America that that there was a celebration of the International, the possibility of international food. That is such it was such a so I have written about it because it is such a seminal moment in culinary history that-that-that-that-that World's Fair, you know, was the first time there was like a giant concourse devoted to things, you know, you know, you know, Asian food, and even things like Belgian waffle was a big, was a big hit at that World's Fair, and they did not exist. The idea of cooking a fresh waffle and putting whip cream and strawberries on it. IG: 14:35 I think, I think, I think that is absolutely right. It kind of introduced, you know, not only well through food, essentially through food, you know, I mean, we can, we can discuss. I have, actually, my daughter has a friend, Joe Torella, who was also a journalist at People Magazine. But, you know, he wrote a book about the (19)64, (19)6 5 World’s Fair. Have you heard it? SW: 15:05 Yes, I am not, but I am going to look for it now, because it is dear to me. IG: 15:12 Probably touches on what you, you bring up, because it is, it is sort of, you know, it is heavily researched. And- SW: 15:20 Yeah-yeah, that was- IG: 15:22 -what we can, we can, all right, so let us go back to Harpur. Let us go back to Binghamton. So, you arrived on campus. What, in (19)66? SW: 15:33 (19)66, yes. IG: 15:34 (19)66, a city kid, and you are coming into really the boondocks. What was it like then? What was the college describe it? SW: 15:44 It was very small by today's standards. I think there were, there were either just south or just north of 2000 students there. And over the course of a year, you literally got to, if you did not know personally, everybody on campus, you recognized everyone on campus. It was that intimate. But, but the it, but-but the-the-the truth of it? Well, there is lots of truths to it. One is your, your only. I was only 17 years old when I started college, and it was the first, I mean, I travel some as a kid, but this was, you know, the first attachment from home. So, a lot of what goes on is just a, you know, once psycho psychology responding to the strangeness of being on your own, but it was also in the forest, as far as a New York City kid was concerned, and I was surrounded by a lot of kids like myself, really smart people who-who Harpur was a liberal, liberal place. I do not know what it is like today, but that was a very-very liberal campus and-and so it was, it was like, it was like, you took the compression of the city and young people and you it was a chance like-like the snakes coming out of the popcorn [laughter], the fake popcorn, we were springing all over the place, if the truth be told. On the other hand, I was very serious about academics. And I, you know, I gravitated, I liked, I liked going to college, I like, I like the education. And it was, it was a it was a mixture of social strangeness and a chance to- IG: 17:13 How so? Social strangeness? SW: 17:14 I just think the freedom that that is involved, they in the in the in the orientation week in the freshman year. One of the traditions that Harpur had, I do not know whether it exists, I hope not, but they had it called Patty's wake. And Patty's wake was a beer blast. And, you know, we were, I was not even old enough to drink beer, but so be it. You know, this should be my worst crime, but-but it was, it was it was it was so mind bending. Forget, forget the drugs and all the rest that came later was just mind bending to be served. You know, limitless amounts of beer in a space with music and hundreds of kids your age were just free for the first time. I do not know how to put a neat lasso around it- IG: 18:03 Exactly, but it is [inaudible] you vivid-vivid picture and memory, you know. So, you know, there probably was a sense of being part of this community, and uh- SW: 18:21 I think it is a very- I wrestle with that point a lot. [crosstalk] I wrestle with the community point a lot. Because as someone who eventually got into generational studies, that is what the consistent consumers. I do not know whether my generation was as collectivized as some of the other generations that I see. I think that the in primitive or the nature of the people that I went to Harpur with, everyone was in a play about themselves. IG: 18: 52 That is a brilliant way of describing it is very individualistic, very but that is great. SW: 18: 58 And so, our play is overlapped, but-but-but-but everyone was really existing in-in a script that was being written for them, personally. And so while it is fair to discuss the (19)60s in terms of anti-war culture or-or drug culture, or-or materialism is-is-is, you know, is laid upon the baby boomers, and that is and none of that is wrong, but-but-but I do not think it captures the essence of what every, every person who participated was going through, because there was a lot of ways to act out, whether you were in the theater department or whether you were an anti-war protester, or whether you were a musician, or whether you were a scholar, and people-people had a passion about what they were doing. And you know, sometimes that passion got a little too crazy, but, but I would describe my experience at Harpur in general as just being around a lot of passionate, crazy people. Pick crazy because the because I. Society teaches you to modulate a little. Yes, you get older, and these-these people are not entirely modulated. IG: 20:06 So do you think that this is true of the youth culture, because a lot is said about the youth culture in the late (19)60s, and you know all of these rebellions going on in the United States, protests and-and in Europe. Do you think that everyone was, you know, feeling, I mean, you cannot speak for the whole world? But do you think that this was more true of Harpur College or youth culture in general, that everybody was in their own play? SW: 20:38 I-I think that that the answer is yes to both, both the youth culture in general and Harpur, which gave people an opportunity because of the nature of the people who attended and the nature of the social structure of the school itself, allowed it to flourish. But-but as somebody who cares about this, because I have studied this and it is meaningful to me, I believe that every generation discovers its values in part as a break away from the preceding generations. In other words, that in order that-that the values of a generation are formulated in not necessarily in protest, but you need to create a unique identity that allows your generation to be a survival generation, there is got to be something that you are not just aping a previous generation, and what Tom Brokaw has described as the greatest generation, because they lived through a depression and because they fought a war. God bless them. Yes. However, I would tell you that one of the major, at least in my observation, one of the major qualities of that generation is well for one of a better term, excuse me, Tom Brokaw, fear and repression, because their survival depended on being brave, on enduring horrible, horrible things as a result. When they created us, my generation, when they created us, they wanted us to toe the line. They wanted us to behave because they felt that is the way you survived. You know that there was, there was there was an appreciation that you survived by following the laws of the tribe. Well, so turned out my generation was not having any of that, because we had to create our own values. So instead of, instead of cursing the darkness, we lit the candle and that. And so that is who we became. We became people who were, you know, we decided, rather than crawling back in the womb and being afraid that we would go out and party for a while. And I think that was true of my generation, and I think it was very true at Harpur, because Harpur was inclined to be liberal about those things. IG: 22:36 But-but you also acted as a collective. I mean, it was, it was very individualistic, but was not there a sense of collective of, you know, going out and marching on Washington, and also the music of the (19)60s was very much about, um, you know- SW: 22: 55 I think, I think that is eminently fair. And I think, I think when half a million people show up at Woodstock. You have a right to talk about collective but my experience and A, this may be just totally atypical to me or B, because I am a journalist by nature, and I was more of a watcher, you know, I was much more interested in observing than participating. But I just felt that even I acted a little bit in Binghamton too. I was a couple of plays, even though I was an English major and but the people in the theater department well, but you could say that they were collective. They were all doing plays together, but damn, they were a diverse group of people. IG: 23:33 That is a very good analogy. And I think so highly of the theater department is still excellent today, still excellent. SW: 23:41 Are you looking at Morris from Fiorello? That was my great moment. IG: 23:48 Yeah, so that was a great experience for you, acting in theater. And- SW: 23: 57 Yeah, those- IG: 23: 58 That is a very participant. I mean, still you are, you are, yes, you are a star, and you are in your own head, but I mean the nature of acting is that you are, it is imitative and, but you are acting as a collective. SW: 24:11 I-I was in a couple of demonstrations, and I was in a couple of-of plays, right? And, and had I been in the country at the time, I would have gone to Woodstock. I happened to be, I was, I was in the summer of my junior year, which was on Woodstock took place. I was at Oxford University on a summer program. I had applied to a summer program. So, I went to see the Rolling Stones in Hyde Park in London that summer, which was the same summer. So, I get, I get some credit, but I guess what I am trying to say is that, yeah, okay, I participated in communal actions, but it was it. I was experiencing it on such an individual level. Did I get the paper in on time? Was my girlfriend happy? Was and that was as real as being, you know, part of the crowd that was watching, you know. Mick Jagger come out of the helicopter. IG: 25:01 I understand. I understand. SW: 25:04 But I do not know how you write history if you do not see some collective, you know, strains. But it was also- IG: 25:11 -a period of finding out about yourself. SW: 25:13 Absolutely more than anything, more than anything. IG: 25:18 So, you know how? Just tell me about you know what your when you were not studying, how did you spend your free time you acted? SW: 25:28 Yeah, it was. We did not have fraternities. So, I doubt whether the school does. I do not know if it does, but we had social clubs. For some reason, they were lost in historical there were no fraternity houses, and there were no sorority houses, but we had social clubs. So, I was a member of a social club, and I played ball with-with, you know, with my, with my brothers, and we had parties, you know, we-we dated, and we had, we had, we had, you know, so there was, there was that kind of, what might be called traditional college life, of having a having, you know, you know, friends, you played ball with and govern. So that was part of my life. And then you just knew people from all sorts of people, had all sorts of interests at Harpur, you know, one of my good friends was, was, you know, running Students for a Democratic Society. And one was a soft, you know, what was an athlete, and one was a- in the theater. IG: 26:19 Right-right. SW: 26:22 I feel like I, you know, poured over like the vial of mercury, and all of the little, you know, droplets are running every which way, because-because it is hard for me to just put a, you know, just a neat bow around-around it. IG: 26:35 It cannot be and but-but also it is, it is, it is you who are bringing, you know, it is easier to put a neat bow, I do not know. Or it is maybe a turn of mind- SW: 26:46 Yes- IG: 26:46 -that wants to put it. SW: 26:47 -yes, that is- IG: 26:48 -you do not, you do not. So, you know, how, how do you think people perceived you? How would you how would your classmates, for example, remember you? SW: 27:03 That is a great question. That is such a hard question to ask too. I do not you know, I would be honest with you if I, if I, if I could tell you that, although I think it is, I think it is part of a journalist nature that you do not want to be the story. I mean, maybe things are changed today. So-so I think that that every time I was able to just sit in and not be the focus of attention, I was, I was at my best. So-so-so the answer your question is they would probably say who that would be. That would be a sign of success. I do not think I was a follower or a leader. I just, I was interested in the zoo. But again, you know, in all honesty, I was very concerned that my girlfriend was happy. I was very concerned that I was getting good grades. Just-just that Harpur at that time, was impossible to ignore. What was going on around there, which was which was wild. Here is what I mean by individual being an individual. I was in the first draft lottery during the Vietnam War, okay, and so I remember, I remember being in my, my dorm room at the time, you know, and they are reading off the numbers on the radio this. That is really how it happened. Now you find out what number you were, but you know your birthday, you know, April 7 is one, and, you know, and for every second is two. So, I had a number that was low, but not really low, you know, it was, it was one of the in other words, I think they went up. I think eventually they went through, like 120 numbers. Like 1/3 of the people were in the draft lottery, were contacted by their draft boards. And I was around 120 I, you know, I, I had a number that was low, but I did not know what to do. Do, you know, I mean, I mean, I knew I had to register for the draft, but the Vietnam war was not popular in Binghamton, you know, on campus, but I did not want to. I had no, I had no intent of going to Canada, you know, leaving the country. But these, that was, that was pretty, that was pretty intense in my life, you know, whatever the collective was doing, I had to make a decision about-about what to do, and I eventually decided to join the National Guard in Binghamton. So, I joined, I joined the National Guard in Binghamton. And on the night of my graduation weekend, there was a very, there was a very famous Grateful Dead concert that took place in Binghamton in 1970 in May and-and-and-and I had to leave on a plane the next morning to go to Fort Knox, Kentucky for my basic training. I was more, you know, I was more of a I was closer to being a hippie than being a straight let us put it that way. The whole school is down there in the gym at the Grateful Dead concert, and I am sitting in the student center by myself because I was too blue. This is what life was like, as opposed to the-the-the, you know, the abstract collective. I am sitting in the thinking, “Oh man, I am going to the army tomorrow, and as fate would have it, I so I fly to Fort Know Kentucky.” You get there, they shave your head, they-they give you a uniform, and it is pretty it is pretty abrupt change of lifestyle. And that night, that night was Kent State, and I had just joined the National Guard as a as a compromise solution to not wanting to go to Canada, to not wanting to dodge the draft, and that night, I got one of the biggest lessons of my life, which was, there are no compromises. Life will life will instruct you in spite of yourself. That is the way Harpur felt to me. It was profound. And the things that were most profound were things that that that being in Binghamton and being a Harpur opened up for me, but they were in part, because I was an anti-war activist or some other collective, you know, phenomenon, and I think that is what is true of most of the people I knew there. IG: 30: 59 So let me understand you-you-you know, enlisted in National Guard in the hope of avoiding being sent to Vietnam. SW: 31:09 Yes, absolutely. IG: 31:10 Yeah, that, I mean, that is the way I read it. SW: 31:12 Yes. IG: 31:13 Why did you feel that the day that you know, the-the night before you would be sent to training, and you learned about Penn State? Why did you feel that that was a compromise? SW: 31:30 Because I felt like I was taking a middle road, rather than making, you know, rather than-than going out one way or the other, saying, you know, I am for the war, and, you know, I am willing to-to, you know, endure the responsibility of patriotism and fighting for my country, or I am against the war. And I thought it was, you know, an evil, hostile thing. And so, I was uncertain. I was uncertain about his doing, not to mention the fear of, oh my gosh, I am going to put a gun in my hand tomorrow, and I want to learn how to, how to shoot and do those things, the irony, because everything is, you know, connected and strange. I went to the local National Guard army in Binghamton just out, just for the heck of it, you know, I when I went the first time, it was not necessarily to sign up for all I knew they did not have any places, because people were joining the reserves to get out of going to Vietnam. And I went to the National Guard Armory, and the warrant officer said, “Well, I have two openings here. I learned that that the unit in Binghamton is a heavy construction unit. They-they build, they build the permanent-permanent, you know, facilities for the army. And he says, so I got, I got, I got two jobs. This is one you could sign up and I could teach you how to break big rocks into little rocks. I will never forget that was one of the jobs. I could learn how to operate the machine that broke the big rocks and little rocks, interesting, but not necessarily my skill set. He says "The other thing is, I need a cook." And so that is how the world is funny. So, I went to the army and went to cook some Baker's school. That was my first formal training as a cook. So, everything was connected. And I went to, I went- IG: 33:07 That is so interesting. So, you know, what was the training any-any- was there any resemblance to culinary school? SW: 33:20 Not, but it was like this. It was being around the mass production of food. I always, I always make people laugh. And in culinary school you say, "Oh, I know how to make a pie." You get a number 10 can of filling. You get a pre made pie crust. You pour the filling into the pie crust. But then you, you did get the Army gave me the opportunity to be around the mass production of food. You know, you cook breakfast. You are cooking French toast for 200 people. It is an interesting experience. So, there were things you could. IG: 33: 51 Of course, of course. So how long did you serve? How long uh- SW: 33: 58 I served in the National Guard for three years, and usually it is six years that you have to serve. But I have a very sympathetic company commander and a very-very sympathetic company priest, Father bill. I want to get father Bill in this lifetime. I said, Look, guys. I said, “This is not me. Help me. Help me find a, you know, an honorable way out.” I said, “I do not want dishonorable discharge. I want honorable discharge, but there is got to be somebody, because you have observed me for three years. I played the game, but I got to get out of Binghamton. I did. I had to go and live my life.” And they were sympathetic and helped me get out. So, I served for three years. IG: 34:36 And then you went back to New York. SW: 34:38 I went to the Culinary Institute. Well, actually, no, but I got out. When I got out of the National Guard, I did the strangest thing, because this, this feels like I should send you a check for a therapy session, because I am reliving things and moments in my life that are that are profoundly, you know, changed, big change moments. But when I got out of the National Guard, I wanted to prove to myself that I did not. Leave the National Guard because I was some sort of physical coward, right. This was something like I was not getting out just to avoid so my-my father had a contact, and I joined the Merchant Marine. You know, the Merchant Marine is not a military branch, it is just the just and so I sailed for about a year on a steel hauling ship that went from Baltimore around Florida into the eastern ship channel. But-but, so what I, what I did after, what I after, what I did after, you know, leaving Binghamton and leaving, you know, leaving graduate school and leaving the National Guard, was I sailed for a year and while I was on the ship, this is much more than anyone needs to know. But I was in Houston. We had docked in Houston, and I had applied to the Culinary Institute of America. I decided that I was going to take my desire to write, and I was going to marry it to food, which I loved, and then I was going to go to the Culinary Institute of America. And that worked out for me. I worked out for me. I worked for the public relations department the entire time I was at the Culinary Institute. I wrote all their magazines, and it opened up a door to becoming a food editor at a national publication. But that night in Houston, in the ship channel, it was during the first Russian wheat deal. They were taking American tankers, oil tankers, cleaning them out, loading them with wheat and sending them to Russia and, and I will say this about the Merchant Marine, it is a weird life. But they paid. The pay was, this was astonishing. Great, great. It was great. And they offered me the opportunity to go on one of these ships to Russia. The idea was, we clean out the hole from the oil, and then we would go to go to Russia. And because of the nature of the of the deal, it would have been very, very profitable for young men. And that was, that was another moment like, huh, should I go to Russia, or should I go to the Culinary Institute of America? And I think I wanted to be a little saner at that moment, so I went to Chef's college instead of going to Russia. IG: 37:00 That is so interesting. Do I know that that America was sending Russia- SW: 37:10 Wheat. IG: 37:10 -which used to be the bread basket of the world, the Ukraine. SW: 37:14 Yes. IG: 37:14 Ukraine was sending it. SW: 37:16 They needed our wheat. I think it was 1973 or 74 it was one of those two years. IG: 37:21 I vaguely remember something. SW: 37:22 That was a big deal. IG: 37:23 Yeah, so you went to the Culinary Institute. And, you know- SW: 37:30 Yeah because- IG: 37:31 -and how did your life, kind of, I mean, your personal life, for example, how was it shaping up? Did you have uh- SW: 37:40 Yeah, I went to the Culinary Institute in America, and I was paying my own way, and I needed, I needed a job, and I got a job in Kingston, New York. I was the cook at a Salvation Army daycare center in Kingston, New York, so that so that so in the afternoon, before I went to class, class would run from about one to seven. So, in the afternoon, I would go and I would cook for the kids and-and one day, I was driving from Kingston to Hyde Park, where the culinary suit was, and it was in a snowstorm, and my car slid off the road, and I, and it was this big, you know, deal of getting pulled out of a ditch and the rest of it. And I got to school, and school had been closed. They had announced the closure of the school. So, they did not announce, in other words, they had closed the school, but they did not announce it in a way that I that was accessible. So, I got, finally got to the school. I was the maddest guy on the planet. You mean, you made me drive in a snowstorm, I get an accident. So, I walk into the I walk into the building, and there was nobody around, and I walked up to the second floor of this used to be a Jesuit seminary on the banks. I walked into the second floor and there was one guy there, and I said, and I was, I was, I was fuming. And I said, I do not know who you are, but and I told him my story, just like you are asking me now, because I mentioned who I was and what I was doing. He says, "Well-well, I am the Public Relations Director of the school, and I need a writer." So, I put myself through school for the next two years being a writer for the Culinary Institute of America and that and that sort of, you know, pointed me in the direction that I wanted to go. So, I spent a lot of time spending sending out, you know, letters and resumes to-to magazines and newspapers and magazine in Chicago said, Yeah, you know, you should come work for us. IG: 39:36 It sounds very much that, you know, all of these very fateful encounters, you know, that led you to the career that you have now. But you know, it kind of presupposes a certain kind of openness to opportunity, because somebody else would not have taken the bait, right? It is, you know, a certain personality. SW: 40:03 I did not, I did not read the-the questionnaire thoroughly, but I took a glance at it. The one question that that stood out there that made me laugh was, are you still friends with anybody from-from-from your, from your alumni. Now I am close to one-one fellow who I went to graduate school with at Harpur. I am still close with him. But as far as the undergraduate people, nope-nope, and the owner, and the reason, it was not that I did not love them, and I still do, and I would be joyful to encounter them. Yes, I think we all just-just shot off into, you know, you said you are being open, being open to, you know, possibilities. I read everyone there, that way, that there was no I read everyone there. I do not think I share you my story, but I do not think I am exceptional. I think if you sat down most of the people from my classroom, my-my-my circle of contacts and friends, they would all tell you a story like this. It is funny. I went to school with Tony Kornheiser. Is one of the better-known alumni. You know, he is on ESPN, and Tony was the sports writer for the back then the newspaper was not by dream. It was called the Colonial News, and Tony was the sports editor, and I was the movie critic for the Colonial News. And, and that is how life is funny here, Tony is a household name, and I had other things to do. I was not going to be a movie critic. Did other things. IG: 41:28 I did not know that, but you were a movie critic. What you know, talk about this for a little while. So, what movies did you- SW: 41:35 I remember reviewing, I remember reviewing Franco Zepparelli's Romeo and Juliet. And I remember writing a review. I wrote a review of Guess Who's Coming to Dinner with Sidney-Sidney Poitier, and and-and, as with every other school, there were super characters. Most of us were kind of characters, but there were some people, you know, in the student body who were, you know, brilliant but slightly unhinged. I remember one of them coming over after the Sidney Poitier review and-and-and he-he smiled at me, and, you know, clamped me on the shoulder and said, "Good job." I never, I think those were the only two words I said to that guy the entire time. But I was happy. You know, I got, I got an atta boy from, from one of the characters, David Hammer was the guy- IG: 42:27 I think I interviewed him. I would not be surprised. He is a lawyer now, and his- he is a partner in his own- SW: 42:36 Would not be surprised. He could have done anything you wanted IG: 42:38 I interviewed. I interviewed him. SW: 42:40 Glad to know that he is still-still there, because he was a brilliant guy. He could have done anything; he could have done anything he wanted to do. IG: 42:42 That is so interesting. Well, it is not surprising that you know, you know some of the people that I have interviewed and, okay, so-so open, yeah, openness to the world, certainly, you know, is equality of the people that I interviewed. I think I think most, I think I think most, but of course, expressed in different ways anyway. So, you know, so what- this was a time of, you know, changing mores. Were you paying attention to, you know, civil rights movement, women's rights came later in the in the late (19)70s. Were you aware of inequality- did you care, did you take- SW: 43:49 I would be misrepresenting myself to say that it was particularly political, so-so it is really not a, it is really not an area that I have a lot to contribute to. IG: 44:00 Right, okay, all right. SW: 44:03 I was in the National Guard. [laughs] IG: 44:09 Okay, so do you think that this generation of young people has something to learn from your generation? SW: 44:27 I think that is a very fair question. And I think that the only fair answer is maybe, but-but I but I think that first of all, the nature of consciousness prior to the electronic revolution is it is a different kind of consciousness. And I do not know whether it is a better consciousness or a lesser consciousness, but it is a different kind of consciousness. And I said this about the younger generation is I am very impressed by their versatility. The they can do 10 things at once, but they cannot do anything longer than five minutes. And that that is just on one level, that is just an old guy going, you know those kids today, but-but on another level, I think that concentration is-is a valuable commodity, and I think when what my son is a data analyst. So, this is particularly, he is a brilliant kid, and he is a great data analyst. But the notion is, there is always one more fact, there is always one more piece of data. There is always something you could add to-to alter the algorithm or the equation, and-and it is like, no, there are times when it is good to dig deep rather than to dig wide. So, I would like to think that that that, you know, there is still a place for-for concentration, which I do not see, and I see, I see everyone responding at the, you know, to the to the immediate impulse of the moment, you know. And I do not know, maybe I have just described that kind of character because I was when I was a young man. So, I-I the real way I want to answer that question, though, and this is something that I thought about, and is important to me, is that in ancient civilizations, because I like ancient civilizations, I like mythology. In ancient civilizations, if you live to a certain age, let us pick 60 at random. But if you, if you are at the age of 60, and you lived past that time, you became an elder of the tribe, that you were valuable to your civilization as an older person, because you had lived some life and you knew things, and it was the nature of lots of organized cultures that you would access the wisdom of the elders. You would talk to an elder, because the elder could stop you from making mistakes, or had some insights into-into culturally repetitive situations. In our culture these days, you get to a certain age and you are useless. In other words, we-we do not have, we do not honor the elders in our society because of what they know. You know, in other words, I am saying you do not honor the elders because that is the right thing to do, or that is, that is the kind thing to do, or the ethical thing to do. You honor the elders because they know something. And it is funny, because in the nature of the work that I do now, the counseling work that I do, I am forever telling people who are over the age of 60, this is the fight for the rest of your life. Otherwise, it is funny. I talk to people my generation, they all they still want to know, you know, who they are going to date. Will they fall in love? You know, what is the next. You know, you know, business empire to conquer. And I say, you know, get a grip, man, or get a grip, you know, Gal, it is, it is, it is it. Life is finite. There is nothing you can do about that. And I try to say life comes in thirds. You know, from like one to 30, you are young and you are, you know, you are allowed to have, you know, the karma of the situation is you are learning things. From 30 to 60, you are an adult, and you do adult things, and you have you have a family, and you get married, or you have a business or whatever. But after that, there is a decision to make, because time is getting short, and you are not as vital in the same way you were vital. So, what are you going to use these years for? And I just believe that afterwards you can be an elder of the tribe, but life makes it hard to be an elder of the tribe in our society, so you have to fight for that. IG: 48:26 You have to find; you have to find a venue. SW: 48:28 Exactly. IG: 48:28 [inaudible] you can be older. SW: 48:30 Exactly, right. IG: 48:30 I absolutely agree. I-I that that is really very deep. You said you counsel. SW: 48:40 Yes. IG: 48:40 Is that, you know, who do you counsel? SW: 48:44 Well, you know, here we get into the area where I have always been from the time. Okay, here is another strain of Harpur that is important. I got. I became interested in astrology partially because of my interest in mythology as a student. But partially because of a girl who was into astrology. And she was fairly, fairly adept. She was fairly well read in astrology. She was another undergraduate, like I was- IG: 49:06 Linda Goodman Sun Signs. SW: 49:07 The first what was one of the first three books that was handed to me. Jody handed me three books. She handed me Linda Goodman Sun Signs because I said it turned out we had our birthday was one day apart, and I wanted to, I thought this would be a good way to-to-to impress a lady. So, she gave me Linda Goodman Sun Signs. She gave me Astrology for Adults, by Joan Quigley. Now Astrology for Adults, the interesting thing about it is Joan Quigley, remember when, when-when it was turned out that Ronald Reagan and Nancy Reagan were deeply into astrology. It was on the cover of People magazine and Time Magazine. Well, Joan Quigley was their astrologer and [crosstalk] So Joan quickly was the Reagan's astrologer, and she had written a book called Astrology for Adults, which was a second level astrology book. And I, all I want to do is run around for people do not worry to worry about the President's into astrology. She was a really good astrologer, but the third book she gave me was a very, very esoteric study called An Astrological Triptych, by a famous astrologer by the name of Dane Rudhyar, who was a very-very eminent, thoughtful, brilliant, philosophical astrologer. And I read, I read the first two books, no problem. The third book, I did not know what the hell I was reading, and it became kind of a challenge to me, an intellectual challenge. I wanted to know enough astrology to understand what I was reading in this book. So, astrology became an interest, because I liked mythology. I loved Athena. She was my favorite Goddess, and I, you know, the relationship did not go anywhere, but the astrology got under my skin. So, for from the age of 18, I have been interested in astrology and-and I have taken classes, I have written for astrological journals, but all on the QT. I was, I was having a career, and this was, this was my avocation. This was not my vocation, but I was, I was a serious, I was a serious student of astrology without being an astrologer at the age of 60, you know, apropos of this, you know, being an elder, life circumstances changed for me in my business and in my personal life. And it was a gateway. It was clearly a gateway. And I could either try to recapture the stuff I had been doing for 30 years, or I could say, "Look, you know, do what you do, what your passion tells you to do, for the running time while you, while you are still capable." So-so I had, it is funny, because it is it Louis, Louis Patler who is a who is a co-writer, and a very well-known if you, if you, if you Google Louis, you would see what, what an influential business consultant he is in the world right now. His daughter knew that I was into astrology. She kept bugging and bugging me about doing a reading for because I do not do readings purely in this, because this turns me on. It is sort of like, like a person who has some ability to paint, but paints the pictures for himself. And she became so incessant, I finally said to him, "Look, I am going to do this for her." And she became she became client one. Well, I never advertised. This is about 12 years ago. I never but I never tried to build a practice. She told friends. Friends told friends. Word got out. I published some books, and I have about 200 clients now, and most of them are very accomplished, in fact. In fact, this morning, I did a consultation with a doctor in Canada. These are not people who are they are scientists. There is business leaders. They want to keep you know, sharing names is not the right idea, but when I say counsel, I am having the sort of conversation you and I are having today. These are the conversations I have with people because the universe has been kind and sending me people who have are really thoughtful, you know, are really worth talking to. I am not. For me, astrology is not, you know, you know, I lost my dog. Where is my doll? Do that kind of astrology. I try to talk about life of you. I try to do my wisdom, my wisdom years via the via this consulting. But I find that you know, that people come back over and over again and-and the names and the the-the-the accomplishments of the people that I get to consult with are impressive. Let us just leave it that way. SW: 49:53 Again. They come to me because I am not trying to sell them that I am an Oracle. I mean, yes, there is synchronicity involved. Yes, I tell people things that. How did I know that the-the- it is funny, the doc, the Canadian doctor, a woman who is, I know, I know because I have read for her husband, too, has been married for 25 years? I could look at her chart, and I say, you know, I have to say this to you there, there is really a strong indication here of some sexual, you know, hanky panky attraction going on. And I was right. I was right on. I do not know how I know that, all right, that, you know, I do not know how I know that looking at a piece of paper, you know what I mean. And I am not, I am not going to, I would never advocate, oh, astrology is true. It is the word of you know, you know the universe. But sometimes it blows my mind. I do not think I would have stuck with it if it was not, if that did not occasionally happen. IG: 49:53 Right. Well, I think we should near we should think of concluding this extremely [crosstalk] SW: 49:53 This tape will be [crosstalk] IG: 49: 53 How interesting. Well, they are interesting. IG: 50:40 -your life and period. So, do you- what are some of the most important lessons that you have learned from your college years--life lessons? SW: 54: 59 Yeah-yeah. I think that Harpur was instrumental. And this is this, is this, this is something that is important to me. I think Harpur opened me up to the possibility of dreaming of-of not feeling that reality was something that came with a set of instructions. I think that, I think that that the nature of what I studied and what I did and who I was doing it with, made me believe in the possibility that that you could always learn something, you could always be surprised. You could always you could always trip into something that was, you know, oh, I could have never anticipated that life was going to take me down this road or this was going to happen. And I think, I think leaving a, you know, leaving-leaving New York as a young, young guy, as a 17 year old guy, and even though I was, you know, a little free spirited, I was still looking to my family in a, you know, in a community of, you know, belief and practice and-and Harpur could have been a different kind of school where I simply, you know, went for an academic reputation, and I studied hard, and I and I, you know, figured out how to become something. But the things that were important about Harpur were the was the was the open endness of it all, the free-floating associations that seem to have so much meaning. And I honestly feel that basically, and again, this is just for me, that is that, that is what Harpur opened me up. It is sort of like a look like, you know, like, like a meditation or a spiritual journey. I only can characterize it that looking back at it, it opened me up. It opened me up to the possibilities of the universe. And that was life lesson number one, that and I realized that in order to write, you had to concentrate. [laughs] IG: 56: 54 Well, that is that is absolutely wonderful. Thank you so much for a really, very, you know, very substantive, unique interview, I think that we are going to conclude- SW: 57:09 Okay. IG: 57:10 -here and I thank you very much, Steve. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Steven M. Weiss Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Weiss, Steven M. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Steven Mark Weiss is the president of Straightforward Communications, a marketing and research consultancy in consumer demography and trends. His clients have included Hilton Hotels, Denny’s and the California Department of Agriculture. A magna cum laude graduate of Binghamton University and of the Culinary Institute of America, Steve spent the early part of his career as the executive food & beverage editor of Restaurants & Institutions magazine. His work earned him a Jesse Neal award for editorial excellence from the American Business Media. For nearly a decade he was the regular columnist of QSR Magazine. He is also an award-winning journalist with 25 years’ experience as a marketing and management consultant to the food service industry. Steve resides in Scottsdale, Arizona, and serves as vice president of the Arizona Society of Astrologers. He has written books on astrology, including Signs of Success, which represents his lifetime avocational interest in astrology. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-03-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Steven Weiss.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-03-01 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 57:14 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d7e94a3071777684d0eb0bfa99af75d4.mp3 8a994229d63f53f87e811a60fa3fa103 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/808c42498383c5166cefd0b00e9adf10.jpg 046639a5421397e294b8330f956a7d17 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-02-28 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sue Castaldo Year of Graduation 1963 Biographical Text Sue is a retired small business owner. She managed a successful retail candy business, “Candy in Bloom,” in Phoenix for 25 years. Prior to that she worked in customer service for Bank of America in Phoenix. She earned an MBA from Adelphi University in 1983. She also worked as a teacher in Vestal Schools and taught adults in Illinois. She has four children. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in small business; Harpur College – Alumni living in Phoenix, AZ; Harpur College – Alumni in Library Science; Harpur College – Alumni from Mechanicville, New York; Harpur College – Alumni of Italian descent Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sue Castaldo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Castaldo, Sue ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Sue is a retired small business owner. She managed a successful retail candy business, “Candy in Bloom,” in Phoenix for 25 years. Prior to that she worked in customer service for Bank of America in Phoenix. She earned an MBA from Adelphi University in 1983. She also worked as a teacher in Vestal Schools and taught adults in Illinois. She has four children. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-02-28 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sue Castaldo.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-02-28 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 49:24 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b409047bd25e39ebfee668a60d4bd2cc.jpg 15fa0a9bcb8248c08db4ac888fee643a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c2beb946c436e4810a4bf3d4d3fbda76.mp3 f5adf7042a340e92cd35fcad79d644c6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-06-17 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Susan Brownmiller Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Susan Brownmiller is a feminist activist and author. During the Feminist Movement, she was a writer at ABC-TV. When she saw how much power women have, she began to write about abortion rights. She has written and published books that highlight the hardships women face and how they came to be. She attended Cornell University and studied Acting in New York City."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6531,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Susan Brownmiller is a feminist activist and author. During the Feminist Movement, she was a writer at ABC-TV. When she saw how much power women have, she began to write about abortion rights. She has written and published books that highlight the hardships women face and how they came to be. She attended Cornell University and studied Acting in New York City. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Voter registration; Black Panthers; Black Power; Gay rights; Environmental movement; Sexual revolution; Hugh Hefner; Women's issues; Abortion; Feminists; Women's studies; Antifeminists; Newt Gingrich; Equal Rights Amendment; Civil Rights Movement; Communist Party; Montgomery Boy Boycott; Tallahassee Bus Boycott; Drug culture"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">Voter registration; Black Panthers; Black Power; Gay rights; Environmental movement; Sexual revolution; Hugh Hefner; Women's issues; Abortion; Feminists; Women's studies; Antifeminists; Newt Gingrich; Equal Rights Amendment; Civil Rights Movement; Communist Party; Montgomery Boy Boycott; Tallahassee Bus Boycott; Drug culture Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 94:01 Subject LCSH Feminists; Authors; Brownmiller, Susan--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Susan Brownmiller Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 17 June 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:02): Ready? [inaudible] somebody recorded too. SB (00:00:07): Here we go. I keep checking this because... SM (00:00:10): I know. I know that anxiety very well. SB (00:00:15): Yeah. Well, I had experience with Charles. Okay. Second wave feminism. SM (00:00:23): I am just checking to see it is on. SB (00:00:25): Yeah, it is on. SM (00:00:27): Okay. SB (00:00:28): It has been pretty good. I interviewed Noam Chomsky this past week. SM (00:00:31): Oh. SB (00:00:34): I have to... That is going. Second wave feminism. When did it start and how is it different from the first wave? What are the... SM (00:00:45): Well, the first wave was the suffragette, the Suffragists. SB (00:00:48): Right. SM (00:00:48): That was first wave feminism starting in 1848. SB (00:00:54): Right. SM (00:00:54): Yes. So, second wave feminism started about a hundred years later. Probably a really important kickoff was Friedan's book, "The Feminine Mystique", which came out in (19)63, paperback (19)64. That is when I read it. But there were things happening in the left that were making women angry, quite apart from Betty Friedan's book, which was really directed towards middle class white women. The women in the left, in the civil rights movement had gone south to work for equality. They thought they understood that Blacks and whites were equal, but they also thought that males and females were equal, and to their shock in the southern civil rights movement, they discovered that nobody was thinking that women were equal. This wonderful organization, SNCC, Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, was really set up in the image of the-the young black guy in denim coveralls. On the individual projects in the famous Freedom Summer of 1964, several women discovered that in a sense, they were being pushed to the back of the bus. So the other movement that was happening a few years later was the anti-war movement. There again, the women who went into the anti-war movement discovered that they were relegated to running the mimeograph. That is what we had, the mimeograph machines and getting the coffee for the meetings. If they spoke aloud at a meeting, the guys just like would not hear it. Then a few minutes later, a guy would make the same point, and every would say, "oh, yeah, that is it. That is, it." So they were burning too. These were young SDS women, you know that, Students for a Democratic Society. They were anti-war women. So, there were two groups of women in the (19)60s, the civil rights women and the anti-war women who began to think, what about us? Which was exactly what had happened in 1848. This was closer to 1968, (19)65-6. A hundred years later. In 1848, there were all these movements around abolition, new socialist movements, the year of the Communist Manifesto, things like that, and the women in the abolition movement discovered that they were not equal to men in the abolition movement. There was a very famous, I do write this in "Our Time," my history of the women's movement. So that is why I am being so articulate now. I know it well, and I teach it too. There was a very famous anti-slavery convention in London, and couples of abolitionist, because they were mostly married, went to the World Anti-Slavery Conference from America. When they got there, the women were told that they did not have voting rights and that they would sit in the balcony. That is when Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and I think it was. SB (00:05:19): [inaudible] home. SM (00:05:22): [inaudible] They were in such a state, and they were determined to start a women's rights movement, and they did in Seneca Falls, 1948. So women's movements happen infrequently in history, and they always seem to tag along in a period of great militance in the country. People are organizing for these rights, those rights, and suddenly the women who are active in all those movements say, "whoa, what about us? What about us?" Then a women's movement starts. So that is really how it happened in the late (19)60s. SB (00:06:00): That is why Frederick Douglass was so ahead of his time, was not he? SM (00:06:03): Yes. SB (00:06:04): Because he was sensitive to both issues. SM (00:06:06): He sure was. SB (00:06:07): I can remember taking my dad before he passed away a couple years ago to Seneca Falls and going through the tour there, the room where the sofa was located, and the fact that Frederick Douglass had come there and spent some time with Elizabeth Cady Stanton. SM (00:06:21): Yes. SB (00:06:23): When you think of the times and how they traveled, that had been so difficult. But he was really ahead of his time. SM (00:06:27): He was definitely ahead of his time. SB (00:06:30): Sure. This is going. Okay, great. SM (00:06:33): Yeah. SB (00:06:36): I am going to read these to make sure that I get these too. Before you were an activist, something that I read that you went to Hebrew school and that had a very important effect on you. I will mention what it was. SM (00:06:48): Tell me what it was. SB (00:06:50): Then you were an actress for a short time. SM (00:06:52): I do not think it was Hebrew school that had a great effect on me. SB (00:06:57): You were a writer. You had been a writer in many years, and you were a student at Cornell? SM (00:06:59): Yeah. SB (00:07:00): How did a combination, this is before... SM (00:07:02): What was the Hebrew thing? Indeed, I went to Hebrew school. SB (00:07:05): The Hebrew School said that it was in... SM (00:07:07): East Midwood Jewish Center. SB (00:07:09): Yes, I think it was, and I have it here. I could show you what the... SM (00:07:13): What was it? SB (00:07:14): It said that because of the experience of the Holocaust and what had happened to many... SM (00:07:19): Oh, I became very Zionist. Is that it? SB (00:07:21): Yeah, that, but you became... Man's inhumanity to a man and that kind of thing, the treatment of people. So, you saw, well, how women were treated, and you said, well, when I was younger, I saw how Jewish people were treated. SM (00:07:38): I got... That must be from the Jewish archives or something, because that is an exaggeration. SB (00:07:44): In fact, I might even find it here. SM (00:07:46): Yeah, please do find the source for that. Because I do not recall the going to the East Midwood Jewish Center had much effect on my development as a feminist. SB (00:07:57): I will find it here. SM (00:08:01): Do not worry about it. I do not think it is true. I mean, I was a rebel. In 1948, Wallace and Taylor ran. I was 13. Roosevelt had just died. Wallace and Taylor were running on a third party ticket for president. At that age, I kind of knew I was for Wallace. I mean... SB (00:08:26): He was much more liberal. SM (00:08:28): Yes. So that became my political awakening. SB (00:08:33): Were there any, in all these experiences, I have a question later on, but I might bring it up now, because in all the years that you worked, now this... SM (00:08:43): I am still working. SB (00:08:45): You are still working. SM (00:08:45): In all the years I have worked. SB (00:08:48): When you were in your early years, when you worked for the Village Voice, ABC. SM (00:08:53): Yeah. SB (00:08:54): You did NBC TV, ABC TV, and then also Newsweek. SM (00:08:58): That was earlier. SB (00:09:00): ... and national affairs. How were you treated as a female? The question is, I was curious as if those experiences in those earlier years, your work experience, not the experience, you are going down south in the summer of (19)64, but those work experiences as a woman in America in the (19)50s, in the early (19)60s. SM (00:09:23): Terrible. SB (00:09:24): How were you treated in these jobs? SM (00:09:25): I was treated like a second class citizen. See, you asked how the movement started you then you said, but you want to ask the personal questions. Again, I suggest you read "In Our Time" because I do describe how, when I worked at Newsweek in (19)63, (19)64 as a researcher, I wanted to be a writer. I was told women do not write it at Newsweek. Men write at Newsweek. You girls as opposed to do research here for two years and then go off and get married. That is what I was told. It was that job that I quit to go down south and work in Mississippi. SB (00:10:10): Right. SM (00:10:10): Yeah. I wanted to write, and Newsweek, later the women sued at Newsweek. It was one of the first cases with the EEOC against a corporation. I had gone by then, but a lot of the women [inaudible]. Nora Ephron was working there as a researcher. She left, she made an early and very good getaway, the New York Post, but the ones who remained behind as researchers who did not get married. It was an aging firm of researchers, and they saw that those of us who left had gotten somewhere. They got angrier and angrier, and eventually they hired Eleanor Holmes Norton as their lawyer and sued. Yeah. So at ABC, this was after I came back from Mississippi. At ABC, they had one woman reporter network, and I wanted to be a reporter. They had me...I was a news writer, and they said, "we have our woman." That was it. They had their one woman and they're one blackest. We have one Black. We have one woman. I tried every local TV station in the city. We have our woman. SB (00:11:37): Now, what year was that? SM (00:11:39): I worked at ABC from (19)65 to (19)68. Yeah. We have our woman, and as they say in my book, they said to me, "you are lucky. You have got a man's job to see you're working at the same job that men can work. What are you complaining about?" SB (00:12:07): Was there a quote at any time in your earlier years, what they call a magic moment, where it is like any person, this is the first time I feel I have to stand up and say something and become vulnerable. Because standing up and speaking or writing or saying something in public... SM (00:12:28): As a feminist? SB (00:12:28): Or... SM (00:12:31): As a feminist? No, it was easy for me to talk about it when it came to civil rights. I had no trouble . SB (00:12:38): Do you remember the very first experience that really upset you when you said, and you spoke up, whether it be you could been in high school or the first thing that. This is wrong. This is wrong. Was it going to down freedom summer? Was that it? SM (00:12:54): No, I think... SB (00:12:54): Your experience in New York City? SM (00:12:55): I came from a very good public school and high school in Brooklyn, and I had no trouble expressing myself, but having an opinion is quite different from doing something. When the civil rights movement started, which I date from, I date it from Feb 2, 1960 with the sit-ins in Greensboro, North Carolina. But of course, I had already been aware of the Montgomery bus boycotts of (19)55. Oh, did I welcome that movement. Did I welcome it? It was not just Montgomery. It spread in (19)55 to a few other cities, but there was no way I could participate really. But in 1960, when the southern sit-ins started, there were picket lines suddenly in front of every Woolworth in New York, or in front of a lot of Woolworths. So, I joined the picket line on 42nd Street, and I met people in CORE, Congress of Racial Equality. SB (00:14:08): James Farmer was the leader of that group at the time. SM (00:14:13): They said, come to the CORE office, in New York CORE and work with us. So I did for a year, and then I did other things. But I welcomed this, the civil rights movement. I welcomed my chance to participate, is what I am saying. Yes. Right. SB (00:14:35): Yeah. I have here talk about your experience in New York City and the effort to integrate the lunch counters because you... SM (00:14:41): Yes. Well, that was it. Somebody, a friend of mine said, "Let us go over to 42nd Street. You will see a picket line. I bet you have never seen a picket line in your life." He was [inaudible] and I had never seen a picket line in my life. There were all these people in front of Woolworth on 42nd Street. I was astonished. SB (00:14:59): Were there people that were actually on the other side though, screaming at you, or... SM (00:15:03): Not at that moment. SB (00:15:03): No. So not that moment. SM (00:15:05): Oh. But there were always [inaudible]. They were cra- You know, do anything publicly in New York, you attract crazies. There were people who made their own signs... I remember they would march up and down the outside of the line saying, "Futility. Futility." Then I started my own picket line in front of Old Woolworth near Bloomingdale's. Yeah, it was great. SB (00:15:35): When you made that decision to go south, because I have spoken to several people that went in the summer of (19)64. Yes. David Hawk, I do not know if you know David. David was on the core organizers of the Moratorium in 1969, and a couple other people that, of course we know Tom Hayden was in that group, Casey Hayden. SM (00:15:55): Yes. She is a Facebook friend now. SB (00:15:57): ...and a couple people that were either in the first training group or the second training group. SM (00:16:02): They were there before Casey. Casey, not Tom, Casey was there before. SB (00:16:06): I am interviewing her sometime in July. SM (00:16:09): Oh, good for you. Give her my regards. SB (00:16:10): She has had some issues, I guess. And she has had to put off interviewing or something. SM (00:16:14): Health issues? SB (00:16:15): No. Not health issues. Just... First of all, she does not do many interviews. SM (00:16:20): She does not. SB (00:16:23): Mr. Gor- I think Tom Gorman was a friend of hers, and I interviewed Tom and Casey. Anyways, she has agreed to do an interview in July sometime. SM (00:16:34): Great. SB (00:16:36): But the question I am really getting at here, SM (00:16:38): Well, you should read her contribution to that book of- SB (00:16:41): I have. SM (00:16:41): Women in the- SB (00:16:43): I have. That is the one with the kind of a light brownish cover. SM (00:16:46): I do not know. I have it over there. SB (00:16:46): Yeah. SM (00:16:47): It is like eight women, eight white women in the southern... Yeah, something like that. SB (00:16:52): What amazes me, because it was a thousand people in that first wave. I know... SM (00:16:56): Yes. But she was there before. She was not among those first wave of students. SB (00:17:00): Right. SM (00:17:00): She started a few years earlier, she got radicalized at Texas where she met Tom Hayden because he was on some committee of a national whatever. She was a white Texas girl who found her way to that southern movement early. SB (00:17:19): As one of the individuals who came from the north to go down south. That had to be for anyone in their, whether you be in their twenties, an experience that could be exciting but then you get down there and then you face the reality of what it's really like. Did you fear for your life? SM (00:17:39): Yes. SB (00:17:40): Because some people that I have talked to did. SM (00:17:41): Of course. SB (00:17:42): ...and particularly those that followed the first after Chaney... SM (00:17:46): Yes. SB (00:17:46): ...Goodman, and Schwerner were murdered. SM (00:17:48): Right. Well, I went down with my friend Jan Goodman, who lives in this apartment building. We were in our twenties. We were in our late twenties actually. By then, we were older than the age of the student volunteer. But hey, a movement was starting, but we had the philosophy that everyone had, which was that this was a cause that was worth giving your life to. Now looking back and looking at those pathetic, crazed suicide bombers, wherever they are. I think that this concept of giving your life to a cause is something that you can think about when you are very young, but when you are older, you are what is important enough to end your life for? So, I remember that Jan and I, we volunteered to go to Meridian and Goodman, Schwerner, and Chaney had just been declared missing. At our orientation session, which was not at Oxford, it was later, it was in another city, they said, "We need volunteers in Meridian." And they said, "Meridian is really the safest place in Mississippi," And this happened, but it happened outside Meridian in Neshoba County in Philadelphia. So Jan and I, because we were slightly older than, so nobody wanted to go to Meridian. Meridian was a CORE project, and the other projects were basically SNCC projects. Jan and I volunteered for Meridian. Now this is interesting because I quit, Jan quit her job at the Girl Scouts to go, or took her summer leave from the Girl Scouts. She was working as an organizer for the Girl Scouts. I took my leave from Newsweek. Newsweek was not happy that I was going south. Newsweek had two southern reporters who were certain that I was going to mess things up for them, Karl Fleming and Joe Cumming. We had a Newsweek reunion a few years ago, and Joe and Fleming came over to me. We remember the moment and because he objected a lot. He said, "You are sending a young researcher?" No, it is her summer vacation. She is going. He said, "Well, she is going to get arrested, and she is going to be identified with Newsweek, and I have to work both sides of the aisle here." So Newsweek, in its questionable wisdom, took my name off the masthead for the time that I was in Mississippi. Yes. Peter Goldman, who was the Star National reporter. I was his researcher. Peter Goldman, said, she is going to get herself killed. I mean, he was very hostile. Very hostile. But he was writing all the civil rights stories for [inaudible]. SB (00:21:07): Yes. SM (00:21:07): I am sure he told you. SB (00:21:08): Yes. SM (00:21:09): I was checking the facts. So yeah, Peter was not wonderful at that moment. Yeah. So anyway, Jan and I are driving. She was the driver. She had rented a car. We're driving into Mississippi, and they had told us at the orientation session, I could see her in Nashville, in Memphis, I do not remember. They had told us, when you crossed the border into Mississippi, roll up the windows of your car, and she rolls up the windows of her car. I remember this so well. I said, Jan, what's the difference between where we were two minutes ago and where we are? Why are you rolling up the windows of your car? We were two white women in a car. But she was nervous. Jan stayed in the movement far longer than I could. SB (00:22:05): Now You were there just the summer, or... SM (00:22:07): Then I went back and yeah, I came back to Newsweek after my summer vacation. It was very hard to resume a bourgeois life. SB (00:22:19): I understand that. SM (00:22:20): After being in Mississippi. SB (00:22:21): What was a typical day like? I know that people were down there, but what was a typical day like when you are trained and when you go off? SM (00:22:30): Yeah. Well, it was easy in Meridian. I mean, because everybody was really scared because of Woodman, Schwerner and Chaney. What we did... We were housed with a black family, Jan and I, the Falconers, F-A-L-C-O-N-E-R-S, Falconers. The wife was Johnny May Falconer. She had a daughter named Sandy, and I forget the son's name, and her husband worked for the railroad. In the month that we lived with them, he could never get to sit at the same table with us for a meal. He still could not get him to sit down with the white women. We would take a bus, a city bus to the COFO office, Congress of Federated Organizations. That was the name of the umbrella group that was mostly SNCC, a little bit of CORE. We were doing voter registration, symbolic voter registration for what turned out to be the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party. We were canvassing Blacks, asking them if they could vote, would they register to vote? Would they? Then they would fill out the forms, and we would pair off in interracial couples to do this. We would also... There were other activities. It was a freedom school, which I think was probably more fun, but... SM (00:24:03): ... activities. It was a freedom school, which I think was probably more fun, but we did not do that. Then we got a message one day, James Bevel came to town, and he said that Martin Luther King was swinging through on the speech tour, and Jan and I said, "Oh, we could organize that." I mean, yeah, we have done a lot of that sort of stuff. So we helped to organize the turnout for the Martin Luther King rallies in Meridian. So, then we went back to our lives after, when the summer was over, they said, go back to your life. But Jan and I both felt that our lives were too bourgeois. I mean, how could I return? Newsweek was on Madison and 50th, and it was a block away from Saks Fifth Avenue. So, on my lunch share, I would go to Saks Fifth Avenue and shop. How can I do that after Mississippi? So Jan and I, no, I think she had made an earlier arrangement. She hooked up with the MFDP, Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party. I think Lawrence Guyot was still around and had asked her. So I went back down and worked in the Jackson office, 1017 Lynn Street. I lived on the Tougaloo Campus in a house that was famous for having Casey Hayden having lived in it before. I had come back, it felt very important to vote for LBJ in November. So when I went back to Mississippi, by then the movement ... I was in Casey's house, and Casey's clothes were there, but she had already gone to New Orleans. She was burned out. Also, the movement was questioning whites, because as I am sure you know, not all the blacks in SNCC had welcomed these white students who were not all white and were not all students. They were ministers. They were all sorts of people. Then of course, when all the publicity that summer was because two white guys and one black guy had gotten killed, there was a lot of resentment over that too, because there had been other murders in Mississippi, civil rights connected, but they had not gotten the attention of Goodman Schwerner and Cheney. So, this anti-white feeling was seething. After that summer, the movement really did lose its direction a bit. People said to me, "Listen, you have to make your own project, do your own thing, because there's nobody here to assign you to anything." So I did a little of that. I actually wrote my first story for the Village Voice from Mississippi. They were holding a cotton board election. It's complicated, but there was such a thing called a cotton board. Of course, it only whites would get on the cotton board, but they established the cotton allotments, how much you could plant, and how much you could not plant. So COFO thought it would be very important to monitor the elections, and also to try to get blacks to run for the cotton board. So, I and a guy got sent to, I think it was Edina, to monitor the cotton board elections. Now, I thought it was extraordinary the COFO was doing this, and I tried to get the New York press in the Jackson office, alerted to the fact that the movement was still alive and well and we were monitoring the cotton of board elections. I could not get anybody interested in it. Sometime how after that summer of (19)64, the press lost interest in the Civil Rights movement, and the Civil Rights movement was losing its steam and getting very self-involved in who are we? SB (00:28:51): Was that when Black Power really came about? SM (00:28:54): Ah, yeah. SB (00:28:55): Because Malcolm X died in (19)65, but he was "all white men are devils." But then he changed his attitude when he went to Mecca. SM (00:29:04): Right. SB (00:29:05): But he did not live very long. SM (00:29:06): No, but that is what was happening. Stokely was beginning to speak up about Black Power. So I tried to get the white press. I tried to get Life interested, others interested. Nobody was interested in the cotton election. So, I said, "God damn, I am going to write a story myself." I always wanted to write. So I wrote it and sent it to the Village Voice, and it was the first thing they ever print of mine. Wow. SB (00:29:32): Yeah. Black Power. It is interesting. We had Tommy Smith in our campus, the guy from (19)68 Olympics who put his fist up. We had him at our school a year and a half ago, and he was really upset when people said that he was a Black Panther. "I had nothing to do with being a Black Panther." And he had to correct them all the time. This is Black Power. It is about injustice against African-American. Nothing to do with Black Panthers. But I was on college campuses, and I know the split that was also happening there. The intimidation in the late (19)60s. The Afros and the encounter classes that were happening. SM (00:30:11): Yeah. SB (00:30:14): I have asked a lot of our guests, when we talk about the era that Boomers have been alive. Now, Boomers were born between (19)46 and (19)64. SM (00:30:21): Yes. I was quite a bit older. SB (00:30:24): Again, the difference between the Boomers from the first 10 years and the second 10 years is a difference in night and day. I have learned that through the interview process. But what was it like being a woman in ... what I am trying to describe about the Boomers themselves, the era that Boomers have lived, the 63 years they have been on this planet, because the oldest Boomers are 63 years old and the youngest are 47. So, I am looking at that period of time since right after the war ended. What was it like being a female in the late (19)40s and the (19)50s, and then in the (19)60s and the (19)70s, the (19)80s, the (19)90s, and the 2010s? I break it down by decades. I know it might even be different to some of the people, but what was it like in- SM (00:31:16): It was stifling in the (19)50s. You could not be anything. In the (19)60s at first did not change for women. But there were other forms of activism available that I and a lot of other women joined. Civil Rights, Anti-War. But it was not until the start of the women's movement that I found a movement that was directly concerned with me. Never thought it would happen. SB (00:31:53): And that is really the (19)70s then, really. SM (00:31:55): Well, (19)69. SB (00:31:59): (19)69, (19)70 and the (19)70s are when a lot of the movements really came in. SM (00:32:03): [inaudible] That was the women's decade. SB (00:32:08): And the (19)80s. What happened in the (19)80s besides Ronald Reagan being one? SM (00:32:12): Well, I wish you had read "In Our Time," because I talked about that too, that in the (19)80s, women continued to make strides in terms of employment, things like that. But suddenly you needed two incomes in a family to survive under the Reagan Era. Things had been cheap before then, things were cheap in New York. You could get a cheap apartment and have a part-time job and still have time for your political activism. But that disappeared in the Reagan Era. That was, I think, one of the primary reasons why activism fell off in the (19)80s. It was it the pressure to earn a living with the rising rents and double-digit inflation. It became very difficult. SB (00:33:09): Before we go in the (19)90s, the (19)70s was the heyday of the second wave of the women's movement. And obviously that was also the environmental movement because of Earth Day. You might even say because of Stonewall, that was the gay and lesbian- SM (00:33:24): Oh, absolutely. All happening. SB (00:33:26): Certainly, even the Native American movement, that was (19)69 to (19)73. But why is it that that decade, and I just interviewed Dr. Schulman up in Boston, who just wrote a book on the (19)70s. There is something that happens. People seem to remember the first half of the (19)70s, but they do not remember the second half and I said, "Is it because of disco?" So, what happened as how some people look at the (19)60s as the decade. SM (00:34:00): That is right. SB (00:34:01): And they kind of knock the (19)70s knowing that when you define the (19)60s, that goes up to (19)73 in most cases, because even people say the (19)60s was from (19)63 to (19)73 or something like that. So, what I am saying- SM (00:34:15): Well, I know I have heard that, but I date it a little differently. Hold on. Let get a cough drop. SB (00:34:19): Yep. SM (00:34:25): People have tried to write the women's movement out of history, that is one thing. I have read accounts of the (19)70s, Rolling Stone asked me to contribute to an account of the (19)70s. And I said, "Well, for your purposes, we got Roe v. Wade." SB (00:34:51): I got that later on. SM (00:34:52): The editor said, "What? That happened in the (19)70s." I said, "Yes, women won abortion rights in the 1970s." "No kidding." There have been many intellectuals who have tried to bury the women's movement. Tom Wolf, most famously, he is referring to it as "The Me Generation." Todd Gitlin famously refers to as the "Identity generation" me, my identity. He does not consider the issues that emerged to be on the level of his great involvement. SB (00:35:41): I interviewed him too. SM (00:35:41): Yeah. Well, incredibly important movements arose in the (19)70s. At this point, I would say that the gay rights movement is stronger than the women's movement. The environmental movement has certainly gotten a push from the Gulf spill. SB (00:36:09): Oh, yes. SM (00:36:13): But by the end of the decade, before the election of Ronald Reagan, there were many of us who felt that somehow we were running out of steam in the women's movement, and the great divisions had arose among us. I was part of a group that formed Women Against Pornography in (19)78, and that became a very divisive issue in the movement. Earlier than that some people, like Phyllis Schlafly, had decided to take a very strong stand on surrogacy. She argued, and I guess would still argue, that a woman who offers her body as a surrogate has a right to change her mind. And others of us thought, well, well, a contract's a contract. If you have volunteered your womb, and perhaps your egg to incubate a baby for somebody else, well, you signed a contract. What is this, a woman has the right to change her mind all of a sudden. So, I was surprised when Phyllis Schlafly turned surrogacy into a woman's right thing. And a lot of people were surprised when I turned anti-pornography into a feminist thing, not I alone. I mean, Schlafly alone seemed to be spearheading the surrogate thing in the case of Mary Beth Whitehead. But pornography split the movement a bit or earlier than that, prostitution split the movement a bit because some leftists in our movement, they named it sex work. They named prostitution sex work and said it was as honorable as any other kind of work, and that all work is basically exploited anyway. I said, "Excuse me, what I do is not exploited as a writer. I do not get exploited except maybe by my publisher." I never have royalty statements. But I thought that the effort to redefine prostitution as sex work was really bad and they keep it up, because this is an international dispute now. Those of us who considered ourselves the ones with the real feminist analysis said, "No one should be allowed to buy a woman's body the way no one should be allowed to buy any person's body. I mean, we eliminated slavery. We have to eliminate prostitution." But that battle still goes on. SB (00:39:25): Now, when you look at certainly the (19)50s and the (19)60s, you got to think of Hugh Hefner. I have not brought him up very much. SM (00:39:34): An enemy. SB (00:39:35): Okay, but I have not brought him up hardly in any of the interviews. Well, you are talking about the sexual revolution. You bring up Hugh Hefner, and some people say that his work was more art, but when you compare a Larry Flint that is more pornography. So, they're in the same boat, but Hugh Hefner was the front runner of all this. SM (00:40:00): Well, he has a whole team of publicists who are still promoting his role as a great sexual liberator. SB (00:40:13): His kids are going to take over, too. His sons who are like 20, 18, when they do. I had a question here on the organizing of the Women Against Pornography. How effective had that been? SM (00:40:37): We lost. SB (00:40:39): Obviously, they even had a TV show recently on CNN going into that, in-depth on the business and so forth. So that is- SM (00:40:52): The industry, it was a very funny thing at the time, even. SB (00:40:58): Make sure this is still going. Yep, we are doing fine. SM (00:41:07): We had a slideshow on a carousel, and we would invite audiences to see it. Pictures really, atrocious pictures from Hustler, from Penthouse, from Playboy. That was our technology moving the crank on a carousel on a slideshow. Meanwhile, the industry is moving with VCRs. The porn stores are opening all over the place. You can now buy a VCR, take it home in the privacy of your home seat, you do not have to go to a booth in Times Square and masturbate in a booth. You can take it home. So it was hilarious. It was like the technology changes that we were talking about. But we also had a problem, in addition to the fact that the industry was growing by leaps and bounds, and all kinds of people got the idea into their heads, was that, "Ooh, I want to be a Hollywood director, so the first thing I do is make a porn film, make money on that, and then I can direct a real film." I mean, it permeated everybody in the (19)70s. It was disgusting. SB (00:42:29): Well, I do remember Hugh Hefner being interviewed, even recently saying, I do not know what it was, he was on television, and he said, "Well, Playboy was very important to change the attitudes in America that bodies are beautiful, that a women's body is art." SM (00:42:59): I know his lines, and I have seen the most recent documentary, which unfortunately, I mean, this Canadian woman fooled me, Pat Boone and I represent the opposition. And everyone, including Jesse Jackson and Mike Wallace is saying, "Oh, Hugh Hefner was such a pioneer." It was horrible. I crept out of the screening. I was mortified that she fooled me. She really hood winked me. Anyway, what were we talking about? We were talking about the changes. SB (00:43:36): Yeah, we were talking about changes. Yeah, we were talking about changes. SM (00:43:37): Well, the other thing that happened in our anti-pornography movement was little did we know that there were ... we saw pornography as something created by men, that men watched and masturbated over it. That is how we saw pornography. And as for gay-on-gay pornography, it did not bother us. Men want to, that is their thing. We were thinking of heterosexual pornography as being a lie about women. It was always showing rapes, gang rapes that women love. But within the women's movement, it turned out we had people and some identify themselves as lesbian feminists, some identify themselves as straight feminists, who said that they found their sexuality in pornography, and that our images that we thought were so horrible about bondage and things like that they enjoyed and that we were censoring their minds. That is a very serious charge. SB (00:44:47): You talk about that- SM (00:44:48): We did not mean to censor their minds. We did not think those images were very healthy. SB (00:44:54): When you wrote "Against Our ..." I am going to get back to the [inaudible], maybe I will finish this question here on the decades. You talk about how about the (19)90s? Where were the women's movement in the (19)90s and 2000s? SM (00:45:05): Well, the movement goes on. There are people working in every aspect of it. It was through our movement that we established the battered women's shelters, the rape crisis centers, the laws against sexual harassment. These were women's movement accomplishments of the (19)70s. In the (19)80s, those forms of organizing, having a battered women's shelter, having a rape crisis center, having a hotline, they got taken over by the establishment, as well they should have. They moved into the mainstream of community service. A town with good people funded a battered women's shelter so you did not need feminist activists to be involved in it any more. In fact, they were pushed out because they did not have social work degrees. SB (00:46:09): It is interesting, I cannot remember who I interviewed that said, when I brought up the name Gloria Steinem, they said she is the epitome of a person who is now mainstream. She's the most mainstream of all the feminists. SM (00:46:24): Well, I do not know. I think she keeps trying to be relevant. She tries very hard. It is her life. It is her life to be a public speaker and to travel to colleges. So, I do not need to criticize her. SB (00:46:36): The (19)90s though itself? SM (00:46:39): So, getting to the (19)90s. SB (00:46:43): Bill Clinton. Stop. Here we go. SM (00:46:52): Yep, it is fine. Okay. It is on? SB (00:46:54): Yep, it is on. SM (00:46:55): I can say from personal experience, because in the (19)90s I was writing my book called "In Our Time: Memoir of a Revolution," I would say that my editor, who had signed it earlier in the decade with great hopes and a big advance, was telling me several years later that the salesmen were reporting to her that no one was interested in a history of the feminist movement, and that there was no chance for this book in the public marketplace. So, something happened out there, in the culture at large, where even though individual women were making strides in their individual lives, the movement was dead as an issue that engaged the public. SB (00:47:55): See, that was the same criticism that when people praised the (19)60s, they criticized the (19)70s because ... SB (00:48:03): When people praised the (19)60s, they criticized the (19)70s because what happened to all those movements? What happened to all of them? SM (00:48:08): They were there. SB (00:48:09): They were there in the (19)70s. SM (00:48:10): They were not their movements. The civil rights movement split off into black power, which I think was very destructive. SB (00:48:17): Right. SM (00:48:18): Right? SB (00:48:18): Mm-hmm. SM (00:48:22): The anti-war people, what happened to them? Most of them went into academia and became professors, which a lot of them did. A lot of them quickly jumped into academia. SB (00:48:37): And I know the gay and lesbian movement was in its heyday in the (19)70s, SM (00:48:40): Yes, and it was a fantastic improvement in civilization, but some people were so angry at it because they were not gay. SB (00:48:49): And then AIDS hit in the (19)80s. SM (00:48:50): And then it became a really serious movement, and that is when I saw a split off in the women's movement where the lesbian feminist in our movement discovered they identified more with gay men than they did with heterosexual women. It was profound to see that happen at the time of AIDS. It was such a crisis that lesbians felt, Hey, I have been working in this women's movement and we are always talking about abortion rights, and now suddenly a movement closer to my own identity is talking about we need a vaccine, we need something, we have got to stop this epidemic. And they move, they move right over. SB (00:49:35): What is interesting too is that when you see, and I have seen it in the universities over the years, is that the split between the African American community and the gay community, even though they are united in many respects, only through crises do groups like this seem to come together. We had a student who now works in Washington who had the gay and lesbian office right across from the BSU office. He said, I was afraid of even walking in there for fear of what someone might say. SM (00:50:07): Yeah. SB (00:50:07): And the fact that many in the African American community have been raised in the church that this is wrong by their ministers. SM (00:50:13): Yeah. SB (00:50:14): And so, you have got that split automatically. SM (00:50:16): Yeah, but it also did not fit their idea of machismo black men. What? We're not gay. Oh. It is very complicated, it is very complicated. SB (00:50:27): Where did Clinton fall on any of this? And he's- SM (00:50:30): Well, he started off pretty good, but the Monica Lewinsky case really did him in, as I keep reminding us. On television, I was watching Colbert last night. I think he wanted to have a much more liberal presidency than he could have. One of his very first acts was he wanted to close some military bases in the United States, and people had forgotten this. People jumped on him. You want to make America- SB (00:51:07): One of them was right in Philadelphia, Philadelphia [inaudible] I remember. SM (00:51:07): Is that one that he wanted to close? SB (00:51:08): Yes. SM (00:51:08): Yeah. SB (00:51:09): Ireland inspector came right after. SM (00:51:11): Yeah. Right. Well, see, I am glad you remember it because very few people remember that it was one of the first acts that Clinton was attempting, and he had not thought that through very carefully in terms of the reaction. SB (00:51:23): Do not ask, do not tell was the other- SM (00:51:24): The other thing was do not ask, do not tell, which he thought was a progressive move at the time, and everyone's hit him on it. SB (00:51:31): Oh, yes. SM (00:51:32): Yeah. SB (00:51:33): David Mixer was the one that really hit him, and I think resigned over it or something like that or he left the White House. SM (00:51:39): Yeah. SB (00:51:40): And how about this last 10 years, George Bush and of course, and now President Obama. Any changes there, have you seen? SM (00:51:53): I know because I am on the mailing list that the Pro-Choice abortion action groups are still with Obama, but worried a bit about him. SB (00:52:08): Yeah. SM (00:52:10): But cannot fault his Supreme Court nominations. I do not know. He got hit with more stuff as president than anybody else. And of course, there has been this strange sudden rise or coalescing of a nutty far right, a religious, nutty far right. I work really hard as a volunteer in the Obama campaign, which is interesting because many of my old feminist friends were horrified that I was not for Hillary, and that was another division in those of us who identify ourselves primarily as feminists. SB (00:52:53): Yeah. I think we are going to see her run again. And of course, he is going to run again. I see her running in, let us see, 2012, (20)16. But there has been some scenario, I am going into it here, some scenarios where she could run in two years. SM (00:53:15): I have heard that too. I have heard that, that they have a deal. SB (00:53:19): If there is a chance that there is no way he is going to win or ... There is some things going on right now. SM (00:53:24): I have heard it. I have heard the same thing. SB (00:53:26): Yeah. SM (00:53:29): I do not know. I am not in the in group. I just get a hell of a lot of fundraising requests on my email to help the Democrat, because I gave money for the Obama campaign. And I did a lot of telephone work, so I am on their list, but I am not a fat cat, and I really resent saying, do you believe what Obama said today contribute to the Democratic Party? SB (00:53:55): I do not like those emails that are sent in. There was an email where after they took the vote on healthcare- SM (00:54:03): Yeah, they wanted us to pay for it. SB (00:54:06): Yeah, but give a thank you to Nancy Pelosi. Well, I sent a thank you to Nancy Pelosi for doing that, and now all I have been getting now is from the Democratic Committee, all these, send 25, 59. SM (00:54:18): Yeah. SB (00:54:19): I did not do that to thank Nancy Pelosi. SM (00:54:21): Right. They get your name on the list. I mean, I am furious. I mean, I identify the names now. They all- SB (00:54:30): Vogel or whatever his name is. They are always coming from a guy named Vogel. And again, when I look at the boomer generation, I always look at the presidents. Harry Truman was president [inaudible] right through Obama. Now, when you look at that, all those different presidents, do any of them stand out as presidents who ... If you had a conference tomorrow on women's issues, I do not think Obama has been in long enough, evaluating the president since World War II, would any of them get passing grades? SM (00:55:06): No. No. It was not a primary issue for any president, and I remember Roosevelt too. I was a child. No. Well, because of the abortion issue in particular, it is a tough one to run on. Yeah. And Obama has made statements that can be interpreted several ways, when he says, we want abortion to be legal, but rare. Well, rare? How rare? Inaccessible or everybody is on birth control, using protective measures? What does he mean by that? But it is a very tough issue. And the biggest change I have seen in the national psyche is that we talked about abortion as a woman's right to control her own destiny. And now it has gummed up with all sorts of other things because of the influence of the religious right. My students think that a first trimester abortion hurts. They go, Ooh. Not that they are not having them, ooh, it hurts. And this whole business of killing a baby. We have not killed a baby, we're just killing a tiny little fetus that we are unprepared to raise. So, I have seen a tremendous setback in young women's attitudes toward abortion. And even my heroes on TV like John Stewart, he has said things, I am not altogether comfortable with the idea of abortion. But I mean, he is bending it, but he is backtracking. Okay, you are taking a life. The point was women's life. Before it is born, it is not a life, so we have lost that. SB (00:57:13): I wanted to say too, that I think your work and your book, Against Our Will, as a person who has worked in higher education for over 30 years, you have had impact on higher education and the issue of rape. SM (00:57:25): I hope so. SB (00:57:25): Oh, yes. It is one of the major issues in universities today. Every university I have worked at, it has been a major ... well, they hired a person. The women's center person is normally linked to it, but it is much, much more than that with a health center. So, you got to realize that your book, Against Our Will, and what you did back in (19)75 by writing about this issue has had direct effect on universities today. SM (00:57:50): Yeah, that is what I published at (19)75. I started writing it a few years earlier. SB (00:57:55): Again, we do not pinpoint it on fraternities anymore, but still a lot of college men have to still hear this story over and over again. And I know it is like a record to some people. They probably heard it in high school, but it is important because it is a very important orientation wherever I have been. And that women, I think in universities today, at least the universities I have worked at, I have worked at four different ones, feel much more empowered. They know their voice counts. And in this particular issue of rape, I am hoping that the stigma and the fear of going to the public safety ... and that is the one thing we have been trying to do, is the stigma and fear that some of them have. And of course, the worry what the parents might think of them for getting drunk and not knowing what was happening. SM (00:58:56): Yeah. Yeah. SB (00:58:56): But I just praise you for that. I just praise your work. SM (00:59:00): Well, thank you, but it was part of a movement. I did not make this all up by myself. Yeah. It was a movement. SB (00:59:08): But you had to know that this is ongoing and will forever have a direct effect on male-female relationships, at least within the universities and colleges and community colleges. SM (00:59:18): Oh, sure. SB (00:59:18): It is part of the daily life, and even in fraternities now. I worked with fraternities. There was a period of time, oh, I got to go through this. No, not anymore. Most of the fraternity guys now work with some of those other people on the other side to educate their fellow brothers or sisters to be sensitive to this issue. SM (00:59:40): Yeah. SB (00:59:40): And hopefully the biggest stigma is going to public safety. And that seems to be still the hardest thing for some of the females to go in [inaudible] that they have been raped. SM (00:59:53): Yeah. Well, because they are still, I think, afraid of a viral internet smear on their reputation, which has happened to several rape victims. SB (01:00:04): Right. I have here that Roe v. Wade was the most important legal decision in 1973 since the end of World War II. SM (01:00:13): Yes. SB (01:00:13): Do you feel that is the most important legal decision? SM (01:00:13): Well, I say since Brown versus Board of Education of (19)54. Yeah. That is how I teach it. SB (01:00:22): Are you fearful as a person that one day they will try to change that? SM (01:00:27): They are trying. SB (01:00:28): They will not succeed though. Today they will not succeed. SM (01:00:31): They better not, but they are cutting it back and back and back and back. I was reading about the Miranda Rights from Warren Court era. SB (01:00:41): Right. SM (01:00:41): They are cutting back on Miranda rights. They are cutting back on a woman's right to have an abortion. In many states you cannot get an abortion now. There are so many qualifications. Now you have to watch an ultra ... it is offered to you. You do not have to watch it. You can close your eyes, but before you get an abortion, in many states, you have to look at an ultrasound of this itty-bitty thing that is inside you. But of course, it's blown up big on a screen, and it looks like something is sucking its thumb. That is just one example. It is the latest tactic is the ultrasound. But the parental notifications, the waiting period, all the picketing that they have done, the shooting of abortion providers, so at least four shootings of abortion providers. So, you cannot say it is one nut somewhere. It is part of their movement, they kill. And what else has happened? Well, the hounding of abortion providers in some of the smaller states. New York, I am sure it is pretty easy to get an abortion, but- SB (01:02:04): Yeah, on university campuses, there will be groups that cannot actually be on campus, but they have the right to stand on the streets surrounding campuses because it is a public sidewalk. And they have the okay to hand out literature, the body parts and the ugliest pictures you're can ever see, but not a lot on the campus. SM (01:02:25): Well, that is good, but there was something else that they are doing. It just went out of my mind. I have to think about it because it is important. Oh, yeah. I just had gotten an email about it. One of the antis strategies now is to have abortion crisis centers and get them in the yellow pages. And women think this is a place where you can go and get an abortion, and it turns out it is not. It is a place that will tell you about the evils of abortion. And once they grab these young women for whom it was a big step to say, yes, I want an abortion, then they get in the hands of these abortion crisis centers, and they are fed a different line altogether and are under an enormous pressure to bring the child to term and give it up for adoption. SB (01:03:39): I just had a question here regarding just some of the other classic figures or writers in the second wave. Whether you want to comment on any of these individuals, I will just read their names and some of them are politicians too, of course. Kate Millet and Sherry Hite, Jill Johnson, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abs, Betty Friedan, Jermaine Greer, Susan Sontag, Alice Walker, Rebecca Walker, who I really like. SM (01:04:05): Well, I would not put Susan Sontag in a list of feminists if I did not- SB (01:04:10): Well, I might put her in the writer area, Alice Walker and Rebecca Walker, who I really think are unbelievable. We have had her on campus. Winona LaDuke, who I think is a fantastic Native American, and Andrea Dorkin, who passed away, and Robin Morgan. I think I have Geraldine Ferrara over here, too, but these are just people when I think of the (19)60s and the (19)70s and some of the books that have been written, and I have some of the books. Oh, I had books of all these people. But what do you think of these people? SM (01:04:38): Well, everyone had an important role to play, wish we had more of them, because you are describing ... I mean, your list is made up of the ones who got famous and had extraordinary skills of being articulate, having an ability to write. Not everybody in a movement, although most wish they could, but they do not write, they do not publish, and they cannot speak before a crowd. And yet they are the heart of the movement. SB (01:05:15): Yeah. I remember we had a speaker that ... we tried to get Gloria Steinem to come to Westchester. We ended up getting Mary Tom. SM (01:05:22): Oh, yeah. SB (01:05:23): Now she was very good, but she was very good if you had her on stage interviewing her, but she was not good as a public speaker. SM (01:05:30): Well, there you go. SB (01:05:30): Yeah. But we wish we had interviewed her because she was great at dinner. What are your thoughts on these conservative women who came to the forefront since World War II? SM (01:05:41): Yes. SB (01:05:43): These are people that are really against probably women's studies and a lot of the women's issues. And I start right out with Phyllis Schlafly, who I have interviewed, who has been very friendly. We brought her to our campus and our conservative students like her. But her quote is that the troublemakers of the (19)60s are now running today's universities, including all the studies departments, so they are- SM (01:06:09): Pardon? SB (01:06:10): Women's studies, black studies, gay studies and [inaudible]. SM (01:06:13): I did say that a lot of former radicals went into academia. SB (01:06:20): Right. SM (01:06:20): They looked around and said, well, I think I need a steady job for life and a pension. SB (01:06:28): So that is truth from- SM (01:06:30): I would say it is true. A lot of so-called Marxist, feminist academics, [inaudible] I mean, they just ran into academia. SB (01:06:39): And that is been a critic of the university in the (19)80s and (19)90s, that the people of the (19)60s are the liberals who controlled the humanities department. So, they control the liberal arts department, arts and sciences. SM (01:06:52): That is probably true. SB (01:06:53): What are your thoughts on other ones that stood out during this period, whether they be a Margaret Thatcher, who was during the Reagan era? Anne Coulter, Michelle Malkin. SM (01:07:05): Well, I mean, I would not put- SB (01:07:07): They are different eras. SM (01:07:08): Yeah. No, but they are different kinds of people. Michelle Balkan and Ann Coulter are right wing screamers on television, are not they? Margaret Thatcher was a complicated person, she was conservative. So on one level, I think way, Hey, she got to be Prime Minister. On the other hand, I mean, she destroyed the labor movement in England. But on the other hand, maybe it saved England. I do not know. I am not enough of a student of English history. SB (01:07:43): And, well, actually, Colter and Malkin are very popular now because they write books and they go out and speak on college campuses. SM (01:07:51): Yeah, very articulate. SB (01:07:55): And one of the older ones is Gertrude Himmelfarb, which is I think Bill Crystal's mother, and she is [inaudible] for criticisms of the left. SM (01:08:03): Oh, well, yeah. She has been around forever. SB (01:08:05): And the other one I have here is, I think it was ... What is her name? Oh, golly. Forget her name now, cannot read my writing here. Oh, Sarah Palin. I have Sarah Palin here. SM (01:08:19): Yes. Well, she is quite a phenomenon, isn't she? SB (01:08:19): Anita Bryant is the other one. SM (01:08:24): Yes. Yeah. Well, just because they are women does not mean that you have to ask me to apologize for them. I mean, what the women's movement did was open up doors for women of all kinds to express themselves, and I guess many of us have been shocked at what has come out of these women's mouths. They are certainly not hewing to a feminist line. In fact, it is very funny. I tangled with one of them on a television show. I do not think it was any of the ones you mentioned. I think she came and went. I think she was with the Heritage Foundation, but it was a Charlie Rose show, and she had been trained to interrupt whatever I said and just go, [inaudible] I could not get a word in and I was so unused to that, and he could not control it either. It was the first time I saw that new women were coming up who ... they did get training in how to speak loudly, forcefully, and not give the opposition a chance. I mean, maybe today they do not need those kinds of training sessions, but at the rise of these right-wing spokespeople, they had training sessions. I just could not believe it. Every time I asked, she said, you believe this, you believe that, duh, duh, duh. And I thought Charlie Rose was supposed to be the moderator here. Tell her to shut up. I do not want to scream too. SB (01:10:12): Yeah, we have had- SM (01:10:12): But they became fantastic screamers, so many of them with long blonde hair. That is, it. Suddenly we have a generation of long, beautifully thin, blonde-haired screamers on the right, except Sarah Palin- SB (01:10:26): Are they on Fox? SM (01:10:27): Yeah, they are all on Fox, aren't they? Oh. What have we wrought? SB (01:10:34): One of the things the questions I do ask everyone is something that [inaudible] Gingrich talked about when he came into power in (19)94 when the Republicans took over for power. And then I have read some of his writings, and he has a PhD in history too, and he actually is a boomer. And George Will has also made comments in some of his writings, and I know Huckabee has done it on his TV show. And I know when Hillary Clinton was running for President, McCain had made accidentally a reference to her as one of the hippies or whatever from that period. But the question is this, that the reason why we have a breakdown in our society today goes right back to the (19)60s, goes right back to the (19)60s generation and that era, because the increase in the divorce rate, the drug culture, the lack of respect for authority- SM (01:11:30): And abortion. SB (01:11:30): Yeah, and special interest groups. SM (01:11:31): Because Gingrich, he is so virulent against abortion. SB (01:11:36): But they claim that that is the era when all of the things started going wrong with America, and it is during that timeframe. And they make references to the (19)60s, and they know it is not all boomers, but they make references to the reason why we have these problems, and the isms culture, whatever it might be. And in the end, what they are thinking of is they would like to see a return to the (19)50s. SB (01:12:03): In the end, what they are thinking of is, they would like to see a return to the (19)50s, I think, or a period Reagan of what was trying to do in the (19)80s. SM (01:12:12): Of course, they are nostalgic for the (19)50s. Women did not have a chance at anything, Blacks did not have a chance at anything. That is what Gingrich really is yearning for. You could not be a public gay, except maybe if you were on Broadway. The changes have been amazing in culture, and who would have predicted the forms they would have taken? It has all been a march forward, except now for this sudden strange rise of the fundamentalist right in this country, and I would add, the strange rebirth of Islamic fundamentalism in the Mid-East. SB (01:12:57): What are your thoughts on when Mondale picked Ferraro? In your opinion, was there a seriousness in picking her? SM (01:13:06): I thought it was terrific at the moment? SB (01:13:08): It was not tokenism? SM (01:13:10): Who cares? She was the first candidate of a major party for vice president who was a woman. He should have done more of a background search on her, because John's Zaccaro, her husband... that is the problem. When you have a woman. She comes with a husband who helped her get to where she got. What is his background? That was unfortunate, and she tried to weasel out of it, which made it worse. SB (01:13:43): I worked for a woman, Dr. Betty Menson, in my first job at Ohio University. She was very strong in working for the Equal Rights Amendment in Ohio. She worked at Ohio University, and I think she has passed on since I left the university. She worked very hard, and I remember the day as if it was yesterday, when I heard the, "Oh no" in the next room, because it had been defeated at the State House, in Columbus. SM (01:14:11): Yeah. SB (01:14:12): Why did the ERA fail? I know it passed in some states, but why is it that it will never happen? SM (01:14:21): Because the opposition to it was very clever in scaring people about its implications. They kept talking about unisex toilets. They said, "You will not have a separate men's or ladies’ room anymore." Somebody else would say, "Wait a second. First of all, have you ever flown an airplane? You have a unisex toilet. You have adjusted to it on an airplane." That is not a big issue. They were saying that you would have no distinctions between the sexes whatsoever, and that is nuts. People were afraid of it, and I think that now made a mistake in putting so much of its energy into the passage of it, but they did not know they were going to hit these. SB (01:15:08): I think Phyllis Schlafly was very strong on the other side, and she organized a lot of people to defeat it. Many people believe she was one of the reasons why it was defeated. SM (01:15:16): Well, she has had an interesting career. For somebody who was always championing the role of the stay-at-home wife, she did not stay at home. SB (01:15:23): That is right. When you look at the movement itself, the second wave as it stands right now, with the successes in the (19)70s, maybe some of the setbacks in the (19)80s or (19)90s, what have been the major accomplishments of the second wave of feminism? SM (01:15:43): That women can work, and have ambitions for career. That women can choose not to be mothers, or to postpone motherhood because of abortion rights. That women have been able to go into what is still called non-traditional work, which is, I think, one of the most important areas of work for women. I care less about a couple of CEOs who are women than I do about seeing women in and police departments, fire departments, bus drivers, train drivers. Those are the jobs that, so much more work has to be done there. The whole opening up of the sexual violence issues was our contribution. That was feminism in the (19)70s, we did that. We made it possible for women to speak up, and for men to understand that sexual assault was a crime. A lot of them still do not get it. The understanding that in war, rape is a very common crime, and that guys who commit rape in war are not psychopaths. They're ordinary young men who, under the cover of war, are acting out of some kind of machismo, because they can get away with it. The courage of a woman to leave a husband that batters her, that is a woman's movement accomplishment. I was called for jury duty last week, and there was a case that none of us wanted to catch, it was very interesting. Nobody wanted to catch it. New York State has a new rule that after a sexual offender, a predator of children, after a child predator has served his term, the state can now put him in a mental facility, obviously to keep him away from children, but also because the state has decided that he is a compulsive molester of children. There was a case, and I think it was the ACLU that was arguing against this continuation of his sentence. It is really a continuation of the sentence. Nobody wanted to serve on this case. We did not want to hear the details, because everyone said, "Lock him up, and keep him locked up," that was the feeling of most everybody. When everybody was being voir dire'd, one after another said, "My girlfriend was raped when she was very young. My sister had an experience. My uncle turned out to be a child molester." People were pouring out this stuff. Nobody would have said this years before. SB (01:19:19): Thank God. SM (01:19:19): It was amazing. Nobody wanted to sit impartially on a jury that was to determine whether the state had a right to put this guy in another lockup facility. We all did. SB (01:19:36): We talked about the sexism that took place within... I know that the Civil Rights movement was rampant, and probably if Dr. King were alive today in his (19)80s, he would be embarrassed by it, but he would have talked a lot earlier on this subject. When we were talking about the movements that took place in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, all of them, I can remember in 1970, when Earth Day was organized, Gaylord Nelson met with members of the moratorium in (19)69, to make sure we were not stepping on their toes, that we were linked, and we were in unity. We both care about ending the war, and we both care about the environment. It seemed like in those days, and again, maybe through the early (19)70s, when you had an anti-war rally, when you had a women's movement rally, when you had a gay and lesbian rally, an environmental rally, you saw signs from all these organizations there in unity, caring for each other's cause. One of the criticisms today is that all these movements have become special interest. They are on their own, they are independent. I know I have talked to some of the gay and lesbian leaders, and they have agreed, this is one of their problems. It is an issue in that community, and they cannot even get people to have a song to sing, which was so important in the movement, "We Shall Overcome" in the Civil Rights Movement. David Mixner, when I talked to him, he said, "It is frustrating, because we proposed that we need to have some songs that we all sing, and no one wants to do it. It is like we are talking to the wind." What I am getting at is, do you think that is part of the problem of all the movements today, just not the women's movement? They have become single issue, special interest, and they do not work with the other movements. SM (01:21:29): I have two things to say. One is that the labor movement of (19)30s had folk singers who made up songs to them. The Civil Rights Movement had a spiritual base of songs to rely on, and just change a few words. The women's movement never had songs, and as you said, the gay and lesbian movement never had songs. Songs do not always accompany a movement, that would be the one thing to say. What was the other thing? Oh, the special interest. The amazing thing about the Civil rights movement, and the women's movement, was that our issues were not issues that these larger umbrella groups could successfully address. When we had so-called vanguard parties, talking about the Socialist Party, Communist Party, Socialist Workers party, they claimed to speak for everybody. "We cover all the issues," but they did not. They basically covered the issues that White males felt were important. In terms of civil rights, I would not knock the Communist Party in its effort on civil rights, but their strategies failed. It was an indigenous Civil Rights movement that came out of the South that made the difference. A movement not beholden to these embracive, inclusive, grand vanguard parties of the left. Since then, it has worked that you take your individual issue and you make that your focus, because those other groups never did. They never did. SB (01:23:23): One of the heroes, really, of (19)64 was Fannie Lou Hamer. SM (01:23:26): Yeah. SB (01:23:27): Here is a woman who was really- SM (01:23:29): Very religious. SB (01:23:30): She was not known, and then, she went to that convention, and Johnson was checking up on her and everything she was saying back in (19)64. SM (01:23:40): Sure. She was a sharecropper in Ruleville, Mississippi, and tremendously religious. SB (01:23:47): I know it is hard to do this, but when you look at the Boomers now, you are older than the Boomers, but almost 40 percent of the people I have interviewed were born before (19)46, but they have lived during the times of the Boomers. SM (01:24:03): We are very grateful to the times that allowed us to make a contribution. SB (01:24:08): Do you have any thoughts on the Boomer women in particular, as opposed to say some of the more recent women, the younger women that have come on college campuses or in society? SM (01:24:18): No, I am not the person to ask that question of. SB (01:24:20): Any strengths or weaknesses that you think the generation has, both male or females? SM (01:24:26): Women today, and I feel it is another defeat for feminism... my students, let us just talk about the young people that I am in contact with, and the young people I see in the street. They seem to have fallen for some of the traps that we, (19)60s and (19)70s feminists thought we had settled. You do not wear six-inch heels. What is this with pushing your boobs up and forward? You are looking like a tart. This whole business that fashion contributed to, of women looking like babes, "You have to look like a babe," is a big step back, I feel. A big step back. SB (01:25:21): The Boomers were not really into that. SM (01:25:23): Not at all. People began to dress casually for the first time. SB (01:25:30): Do you have any overall thoughts on the generation itself, those people born between (19)46 and (19)63? SM (01:25:38): No, that is what you are going to do. SB (01:25:42): When did the (19)60s begin, in your opinion, and when did it end? SM (01:25:46): I think it began on February 2, 1960, when those four black students who were quite religious sat in at a local Woolworth in Greensboro. Was not it Greensboro, North Carolina? But, now that I have been doing some reading lately, and I have been thinking about the Montgomery Bus Boycott, and the Tallahassee Bus Boycott, Tallahassee was student initiated, unlike Montgomery, which was Rosa Parks initiated. Maybe it should start in (19)55, which would be a year after Brown versus Board of Education, which was the first time- SB (01:26:39): In (19)54. SM (01:26:39): Yeah. It takes a while. SB (01:26:47): A lot of the people of my era, and my college years, felt they were the most unique generation in American history. There was this feeling they were going to be the change agents for the betterment of society. SM (01:26:57): Yes. SB (01:26:58): We were going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, bring peace to the world, change it like it has never been before. Be more different than anybody that preceded us, and anybody that will follow us. SM (01:27:11): What happened? What do they say now? SB (01:27:13): Well, that is my question. SM (01:27:15): It is your question to raise and your question to answer. SB (01:27:21): The majority of people that I have been interviewing think that is a ridiculous, arrogant statement to make. A lot of people have said, either the generation is arrogant for thinking it, or that some people just do not believe in generations like Boomers, which is happening all the time. They just do not believe in what they call the Greatest Generation, Boomer generation, Generation X. They do not believe in that stuff. It is about a period of time, in decades or even years. There is a lot of people saying that as well. Those that do say unique are those, in many respects, that were very involved, and they have just never been as involved as they were then. It was just great memories. It's a combination of a lot of different things. SM (01:28:10): You are asking, what happened to it as a generation? Why did not it continue? I can speak to that. SB (01:28:17): Yes. SM (01:28:18): But, not as a member of it. SB (01:28:18): Yes. SM (01:28:19): Because of something we have not discussed at all, is that there were so many casualties of the Boomer generation, and it did have to do with drugs and rock and roll. A Hell of a lot of icons were dead before they were 30, and I am sure Charlie talked about that. SB (01:28:42): Yes. SM (01:28:43): That is his subject. It is not mine, but I am aware of it. I cannot believe the number of people who just died from an overdose. SB (01:28:58): I think what is happening, it is a book that needs... forget about the big names, like Jimmy Hendricks and Janice Joplin, how many young people just died? I know two in particular from my community who, because of drugs, they did not live very long. SM (01:29:13): Really? SB (01:29:17): That is back in the Ithaca, New York area. I was born in Cortland. SM (01:29:23): Oh really? Apple country. SB (01:29:25): My dad was transferred down to Binghamton, because he was a Prudential salesman. We lived in a community called Lisle, New York. I do not know if you have ever heard of Lisle, it was on the way between Cortland and Ithaca. I only mentioned that because I know you moved to Cornell there. SM (01:29:43): Yeah. SB (01:29:44): I have relatives there. Everybody has a different answer to this question, so far. SM (01:29:52): I think that many people experimented with freedoms in the (19)60s that they were not prepared to cope with. One was a lot of sexual experimentation, and they were not prepared for it. I have interviewed people who have talked about how, on the college campuses, the head of their department suggested that they all have a group sex thing to get to know each other better, and a lot of people could not take that sort of stuff. A lot of people tried drugs, and then went too far with them. The first thing that I noticed in the press, because they're very quick to sound in-depth now, was that they started to talk about themselves and say, "Boy, I remember my days in the (19)60s, when all I did was smoke dope and stare up at the ceiling, and say, "Wow-wow, wow." Suddenly, that became a popular portrait of the (19)60s. Now, I did not know anybody who smoked that much dope that they looked up at the ceiling and said, "Wow-wow, wow." The (19)60s began to be tarnished very early after, by the Reagan era. People were dis-remembering it. They were remembering it as a time when everybody was just flaked out on drugs, and I do not know why they did that. I just do not know why they did that. Probably they were just doing some colorful writing, but certainly it was in the news magazines, that I would start to read these reminisce. Those who were enemies of the changes of the (19)60s quickly grabbed onto it, and there's a time when very few voices were raised in supportive of the (19)60s. That documentary that Charlie and I are in together, done by Oregon PBS, that is rare. SB (01:32:21): Which one is that? SM (01:32:23): It is called "The (19)60s." He did not tell you? SB (01:32:27): Well, I interviewed him four or five months ago. I bet I have had about 70 interviews. SM (01:32:32): That is why he mentioned me, because we are stars of it. They chose him because of his book on the (19)60s, and also because he is a gay man, and he talks eloquently. They chose me as the feminist for that documentary, and I remember, after we both saw it on PBS, we called each other, because we used to be friends. We are not friends, we just do not know each other anymore, but we called each other and said, "You were good." "You were good." It has been shown a lot on PBS lately, because these blessed people in Oregon actually got a documentary done called "The (19)60s" that is pro-(19)60s, and that includes the women's movement. SB (01:33:18): I think I own that. SM (01:33:20): Look at it again. SB (01:33:21): I have to look at it. SM (01:33:22): It will give you heart. That is why Charlie thought of me, because we are linked in this wonderful documentary that is now as staple on PBS. (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Susan Brownmiller Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Brownmiller, Susan ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Feminists; Authors; Brownmiller, Susan--Interviews Description An account of the resource Susan Brownmiller is a feminist activist and author. During the Feminist Movement, she was a writer at ABC-TV. When she saw how much power women have, she began to write about abortion rights. She has written and published books that highlight the hardships women face and how they came to be. She attended Cornell University and studied Acting in New York City. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.30 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 94:01 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b23acbbcd1928fd974fd03904286aecc.jpg 935992e3805a8b9cbabc62b6d0785cda https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5a545cf806c07167fa222b644703b538.mp3 0b36c0c7745429296c80212ed4cfcff0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-09-10 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Susan Jacoby, 1945- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Susan Jacoby is an author and has written twelve books, including The Age of American Unreason. She is a graduate from Michigan University and she now lives in New York City, where she is the program director of the New York Branch of the Center for inquiry."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792},"12":0}">Susan Jacoby is an author and has written twelve books, including The Age of American Unreason. She is a graduate from Michigan University and she now lives in New York City, where she is the program director of the New York Branch of the Center for inquiry. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 173:52 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Women in the Vietnam War; Baby boom generation; women; Anti-war movement; Activism; Tom Hayden; Pat Tillman."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792},"12":0}">Women in the Vietnam War; Baby boom generation; women; Anti-war movement; Activism; Tom Hayden; Pat Tillman. Subject LCSH Authors; Jacoby, Susan, 1945--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Susan Jacoby Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 10 September 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:03): Testing one, two. SJ (00:00:03): Do you want test and see if you are getting it? SM (00:00:12): Oh, I know it will not. Testing. [inaudible] this one has already started. SJ (00:00:14): No problem. SM (00:00:16): I am going to read these to make sure that I get these right too. I am all over the place here. And the first question I was going to ask is that you wrote a piece in the Wounded Generation, which was a book that came out in 1980. It was a paperback on Vietnam. SJ (00:00:32): Back in the Dark Ages. SM (00:00:37): That was back in the Dark Ages. This is the only question I have on that because I have interviewed just about everybody else who was at the symposium. Women in the Vietnam War wrote a piece in the book, in the Wounded Generation on women in the war. How are boomer generation women wounded psychologically, personally, from that war? And how important were they in the anti-war movement? SJ (00:01:05): I will tell you honestly. I think that women who were older than the boomer generation were more important in the anti-war movement than women of the boomer generation. The contact that women of the boomer generation had with the anti-war movement, although there were lots of women obviously involved, just as there were lots of men, but the fundamental thing is the women were not subject to the draft, did not have any danger of having to fight in that war. So I think unless a woman had a brother or a husband who is actually in the fighting, and this would be very different, the attitudes of people who came from the social class that did most of the fighting, which then as now meant people who were not going to college, basically blue collar people, they were not as represented in the anti-war movement as were college educated boomer women. So I really do not think that that women were affected in the same way that men were, except that women in general were more anti-war than men. And that was true not just for boomer women, but for all women. SM (00:02:26): Right. Let me just... Here we go. SJ (00:02:32): Let me see if I can get this guy again. SM (00:02:33): Okay. Very good. SJ (00:02:33): That is done. My cell phone is back in my purse. That is it. SM (00:02:40): Okay. SJ (00:02:43): Okay. SM (00:02:46): I have read a little bit about your background from going on the web and also in the book, but how did you become who you are? In terms of, who were your mentors, your role models? I know you went to Michigan State starting in (19)63, but who are the people that influenced you the most in your early years? SJ (00:03:07): Do you mean by my early years, do you mean when I was a- SM (00:03:09): High school. SJ (00:03:09): Kiddo? SM (00:03:10): Yeah. Let us say high school, college. SJ (00:03:17): That is an interesting question. I will preface it by saying that I always wanted to be a newspaper reporter. I wanted to be a newspaper reporter from the time I was a kid. And I wanted to be a newspaper reporter because everybody in my family read newspapers and that is what I wanted to do. At Michigan State, my college career was somewhat different from other members of the boomer generation. I did not want to go to college. I was an idiot. I was a classic example of someone who was not at an age where I could most benefit from education. And unlike most people of my generation who stayed in school as long as they could, men because of the war and women for other reasons, I was determined to get out. I grew up in Okemos, Michigan, which is right near Michigan State. I went to Michigan State for one reason and one reason only. They had an honors college which enabled you if you kept up a certain grade point to take as many credits as you want and get through as fast as you could. I graduated in just a little over two years. At a better university, I would not have been able to do that. At Michigan State, I did. And the reason I did that was I knew that if I had to be in college for four years, I would become a dropout. And there was no way a woman was ever going to get a job as a newspaper reporter if she was a college dropout. I think this is important because I am just on the edge of the baby boom generation born nine months before it actually started. So when I went to college, it was between 1963 and 1965. This was before what people think of as "the (19)60s." When I entered Michigan State, there were parietal rules. I was almost expelled for being found doing nothing in a boys' off-campus apartment. That is what the real... In other words, this is a totally different experience from being that age five years later when all of that stuff had gone out the window. So in many ways, things for me at that age were more like what they were for people in the (19)50s than they were for the boomers who came of age only five years later. And I knew I could not stand living under this regime which kept you as a child, particularly if you were a woman. This is before feminism and so I wanted to get through as fast as possible. Nevertheless, I have to say, I took any course I wanted because that is another thing you could do at the honors college. I took Russian. I majored in journalism and there were some great journalism professors there. A lot of them were people who had been newspaper men in Wisconsin during the McCarthy era and had lost their jobs because of it. And John Hannah, who was then the president of Michigan State, hired a lot of those people. He was very strong about McCarthy. Did not like him. He was a liberal Republican, they were still liberal, and the chairman of the US Civil Rights Commission as well, which practically made you a communist to the eyes of the McCarthyites. Anyway, but the best thing my professors did for me was they made me realize I had to have a huge amount of professional experience by the time I got out of college to get a job as a woman. And I did. And they were my mentors. One of them was named George Huff, who is still alive. One of them was named Bud Myers. And so I went to work as a campus stringer for the Detroit Free Press. SM (00:07:18): Oh, okay. SJ (00:07:19): Michigan State was one of the two biggest universities in the state and it was a source of news. And when I went to interview at the Washington Post in the spring of 1965 for a job, I had a huge professional string book from the Detroit Free Press. So I would say that things worked out for me, although they should not have. My real education came later on. SM (00:07:45): Yeah. Gets me right into my next question here. As a journalist in the (19)60s and (19)70s, do you feel the media only went after what was sensational? And by that I mean the drug culture, the long hair, the clothes, the violence, the protests. And there was little coverage of the majority of the young people that were not involved in any of this kind of activism. SJ (00:08:13): I mentioned this in the age of American Unreason. SM (00:08:17): Right. Right. SJ (00:08:18): And it was not that they went after just what was sensational. That was as much a part of the (19)60s as anything else. It was that the media mostly, it is absolutely true, was then and is now, the media was liberal. Reporters who were close to the age of the students who were protesting shared their views. We did not know anything about the things we now know. I knew nothing about fundamentalist religion. And in fact, there was a whole other (19)60s. That whole other (19)60s is represented by George W. Bush and all of the neoconservatives who first got into government under Ronald Reagan and really began running things under George W. Bush. They were there in the (19)60s too and they were drawing quite different conclusions about what was going on around them than people like me who worked for the Washington Post were. I was not aware of what I now call the other (19)60s at all then. I have become aware of it in the last 20 years, but I never thought about it then. SM (00:09:27): Well, you brought it up. You are one of the few people that is really brought it up in any detail. When I interviewed Lee Edwards, a historian down in Washington, he said one of the things in all the books on the (19)60s is they do not ever talk about the conservative students and the Young Americans for Freedom, for example. SJ (00:09:43): That is right. SM (00:09:44): And other groups like that. And of course the importance of the Goldwater election and the links to Ronald Reagan. Why was that? SJ (00:09:52): As I said, I think why it was is that the social class of the media was very different from the social class... First of all, in the early 1960s, there was no intellectual right wing. There was William Buckley in the National Review and that was that. But there was not any... Now, there is a whole right wing intellectual establishment as well. There was no right wing intellectual establishment then. There was Bill Buckley and his followers, and that is who it was. But there is something else too, I think just as important as that, is the fact that the (19)60s were the years when the fundamentalists established their kindergarten through college network of education and began to train the generation that has had so much influence on public life for the last 30 years. We did not know those people. SM (00:10:49): Well, it is interesting cause you bring up the Campus Crusade for Christ. [inaudible]. SJ (00:10:54): They were just getting started then. SM (00:10:56): Being a college administrator, actually, I have worked with many of those students. But it is interesting about how they used the dress of the (19)60s but they had a different point of view. SJ (00:11:08): Well, sure. SM (00:11:08): Yeah. And so a lot of people do not even think about the Campus Crusade for Christ when they are talking about the (19)60s. SJ (00:11:14): But they were in the (19)60s is when the Campus Crusade for Christ really, it actually was started in the (19)50s, but it did not really have any traction on anything but religious campuses until the late 1960s when they really got started. And one of the things that they were presenting themselves as was an alternative to the drug culture. You can be cool. You can be hip like the Jesus Electric Light and Power Company. You can be cool, you can be hip, but you do not have to share the views of all of those hippies about free love and all of that. And remember, also by the late 1960s, there were a lot of kids who had been involved in the drug scene and so on and were disillusioned with it, were looking for something else. SM (00:12:02): Right. You talk about what they call the grateful and the Ungrateful Generation. Define those. SJ (00:12:10): Well... SM (00:12:10): Because the people that are going to be reading these interviews may not have read your book. SJ (00:12:14): Well, the Grateful Generation was my parents' generation. I call them the Grateful Generation, not the Greatest Generation. SM (00:12:21): And they are not linked to the Grateful Dead. SJ (00:12:23): They are not linked. The Grateful Dead is part of the Ungrateful Generation. But my parents' generation, the World War II generation was the Grateful Generation. These were people who, my mother who is still alive, is a very typical example. Brought up in a blue collar family, first member of her family to go to college. My grandfather, her father, they were blue collar people. My parents, the generation that emerged from World War II as young adults, first of all... In the case of my father it was a little older, but a lot of them went to college on the GI Bill. They came from families where a generation earlier, they would not have been able to go to college. The Grateful Generation, what Tom Brokaw calls the Greatest Generation, they had a lot to be grateful for. One of the things they had to be grateful for is unlike people getting out of the service today, they got to buy houses with mortgages at 4 percent with VA loans. They went to school on the GI Bill. They came of age at a time when, although there were ups and downs, America's economic prospects were good. All of those members of the Grateful Generation who went to school on the GI Bill, enjoyed a standard of living which their own parents could never have dreamed of. So they had good reason to be grateful. And the idea, it was always taken for granted that they would send their own children to college. That was not even a question then. And the thing is-is they expected their children who had so much more than they had had when they were growing up during the Depression when they were coming of age during World War II, they expected their children to be thrilled with the middle-class life they had achieved and to which they so aspired. And why I called us the Ungrateful Generation then, again, only some, but particularly among those who are college educated, turned around and said, "We do not want your ticky tacky houses. We do not like these universities. We do not like what they are teaching. We do not like your war." SM (00:14:54): It is interesting. I interviewed Tom Hayden this past week at the follow-up interview that I had [inaudible] for... I interviewed him for almost two hours. And then of course about a year ago I interviewed Todd Gitlin. And they hate the term boomer generation. Both of them. SJ (00:15:08): Well, they are not boomers. SM (00:15:09): Yeah. Well, yeah, they were 42 and 40, I think. SJ (00:15:13): They are not boomers. SM (00:15:14): Todd's younger than Tom. But Tom Hayden, I would like your response to this. Because Tom said he does not like even Tom Brokaw's book The Boom, because he says boom is an indication of something being shot out, showing violence. And boom, that is way the Tom [inaudible]. And then the fact that it happened so fast that the boomer generation was insignificant. It was just a short time period in history. So he was attacking the term boom. SJ (00:15:51): Well, I think if you will pardon my saying so, he is being a bit of naturalistic in his interpretation. The word baby boom was used beginning in the 1940s, and it did not have anything to do with violence. All it meant is all of these people were having all of these children. Did not have anything to do with the idea of the boomer generation as it was taken over in the (19)60s. Tom Hayden, if he says that, his mind is still in the (19)60s, which does not really surprise me. And as for the boomer generation being a short moment in time, well, he does not know much about demography then. Now, there really are two boomer generations. 1957 was the highest birth rate in American history. It was the exact midpoint of the baby boom generation. After that, the demography tapers off a little. But there are really two halves of the boomer generation. One is people born between 1946 and 1957, the older boomers, and people born between 1957 and 1964, the younger boomers. There is a big difference between them. One of them being that it is only the older boomers who came of age in the late 1960s. The younger boomers came of age in a much more conservative era. And in fact, they are more conservative politically in many ways than the older boomers. Barack Obama is a younger boomer. SM (00:17:23): Right. 52 years old, I believe. SJ (00:17:26): He keeps trying to dis-identify himself from the baby boom generation, but he is a boomer. And here is the one thing that the older boomers and the younger boomers have in common. And again, Hayden and Gitlin are not boomers at all. They belong to that half generation born, really, between the middle of the depression and the end of the Second World War. And they have some different... Although you are right, they were involved in in fact, what people think of today as a lot of the activities of the boomer generation. But what the younger boomers and the older boomers have in common is this. They both grew up in spite of the recessions of the 1970s, in times overall that were a rising economy in which they expected and in fact did get access to a lot of things their parents never had. And this is true when you think about Barack Obama. In fact, the younger half of the boomer generation that was Black benefited a lot more from these things than the older Black baby boomers, simply because of the achievements of the civil rights movement that were won when Barack Obama was a baby. So the younger boomers and the older boomers have in common, it did not cost them a fortune to go to college. The real rise in college tuition did not happen until the mid 1980s, after even most of the younger boomers were through college. The younger boomers, Blacks and Hispanics benefited from scholarships and things that did not exist for Blacks, for the older boomers. And something else also, which is that the younger boomers... Again, the Obamas are perfect examples of this. They moved into a path that had been paved by the older boomers, which was if you were 20 in the 1950s, you were expected within two years of graduating from college, if you were a girl to be married, if you were a guy, you were not expected to be married till you were 30, if you were a guy to have a good job. And when the boomers who came of age in the (19)60s came along, they pioneered a path in which it was okay not to get married right away and it was okay to stay in school longer, to take some time out, find out what it was you really want to do. Now, when you look at Barack Obama's career in the 1970s, the timeout he took from school before he went back to law school, these are things that, for instance, a young Black man from the older part of the boomer generation, his parents would have gone nuts if he had said, "I want to wait to go to law school. I want to find myself." SM (00:20:19): Yeah. SJ (00:20:21): Yeah. These possibilities, which are that your life is not set in stone when you are 22, that was a way of living that was pioneered by the older bloomers. When Tom Hayden says this was just a moment in time, he was utterly wrong. SM (00:20:38): He was referring to that term boom and he was referring to Tom Brokaw's book. Yeah. So- SJ (00:20:43): This is a book being written 40 years after all of this is taking place. SM (00:20:47): Right-right. SJ (00:20:48): And I do not know what Tom Brokaw means by boom, but maybe Tom Hayden does not know that the term baby boomer became current in the 1940s. It was not an invention of the 1960s. SM (00:20:58): I know when I interviewed Richie Havens, Richie said, "I was born in 41, but I am really a boomer." SJ (00:21:03): Yeah. SM (00:21:04): Because of his spirit. And that is- SJ (00:21:06): Well, what happened with the boomers of Tom Hayden's age, and the pre-boomers is the things came along in the 1960s and they took advantage... You are absolutely right. A lot of what is thought of as the boomer activities of the late (19)60s was really carried out by this half generation to which both Todd Gitlin, whom I love, and Tom Hayden belong. SM (00:21:34): Yeah. And so did Richie. SJ (00:21:35): Yeah. And Richie too. SM (00:21:36): Yeah. One of the things that I was curious, you already made reference to it, before the real strong women's movement and feminism and so forth, and what was it like being a female reporter? You said you had two people who were really strong role models for you, men, who- SJ (00:21:54): Not role models. They gave me great advice. SM (00:21:55): They gave you great advice. SJ (00:21:57): They were not role models at all. SM (00:22:01): But what was it like to be a female reporter in the early or mid (19)60s? SJ (00:22:05): Well, I applied for a job at two places. The Detroit Free Press and the Washington Post. Fortunately, the Detroit Free Press did not hire me, so I was hired by the Post, which was great. SM (00:22:17): Right. SJ (00:22:20): The Free Press refused to hire me for anything but the society section. This is 1964. Although I had been covering regular stories for them for years because they said a woman could not be out at night if there were a story that came up at night. The Post was a different kettle of fish. They hired me as a regular reporter, but I was only the second reporter, female reporter who did not work in what was then called the society section. However, I think I would have encountered a lot more trouble at the New York Times then than at the Washington Post, because the Post was then expanding. It had a lot of really young reporters on it. It was not a disadvantage to be a woman in the same way as it would have been at the New York Times in the early 1960s. SM (00:23:09): I have a couple, you have a quote in your book, this book. "In this increasing illiterate America, not only the enjoyment in reading, but critical thinking is at risk." And the way I really want to ask this question is, is this a direct link to the (19)60s? Because a lot of criticism of today's young people today is they are smart, but they do not know their history. SJ (00:23:42): Blaming it on the (19)60s. Well... SM (00:23:48): Is there a link between this quote in the (19)60s. SJ (00:23:55): Yes and no. Yes and no. In the 1960s, books were still really important to all of us. I can remember when Portnoy's Complaint was published in 1969. SM (00:24:05): I read it. Yeah. SJ (00:24:07): I can remember. I had heard about this book. I can remember just rushing to the bookstore, just dying to read this book. I do not think anybody rushes to a bookstore dying to read a book at all today. I really think more than the (19)60s, although there is a connection with the (19)60s which I will circle back to, but I really feel that the older boomers belong more to the previous generation in terms of their attitudes toward reading. The younger boomers belong more to the next generation because there was not any internet. There were not any computers before the 1980s. So that we grew up in a society in which if you read, books were important. As far as not knowing history goes, this has gotten worse every year. It did not start in the (19)60s. There were actually some polls from the 1930s which show how little history Americans knew in the 1930s too. But I do think that what happened in the 1960s, nobody could have imagined the internet then. Nobody did. But there were certainly a lot more forms of entertainment began to intrude on time that had once been devoted to reading. Look. The transistor radio, the small portable transistor radio, I think played an important role in this. For the first time, although it was nothing like now, it was nothing like an iPod, it was nothing like computer access 24/7, but for the first time, you could bring your music with you everywhere. I think it was the beginning of a change which was a descending curve that was fairly soft in the (19)60s. I do not think it really takes a sharp downward turn until the 1980s. This is going to be a problem, I think. SM (00:26:12): We can move to... SJ (00:26:13): Well, there are not any tables. SM (00:26:14): [inaudible]. SJ (00:26:18): Because this guy is talking awfully loudly. All right, well let us... They will not stay there. SM (00:26:26): Yeah. You were in the middle of [inaudible]. SJ (00:26:34): No, that is the way it is. Okay. There is one aspect of the (19)60s that I think does have something to do. And it was really the late (19)60s, early (19)70s. I think in general, student demands are blamed in general by conservatives for watering down of the university curriculum. Now, it is true that students were demanding a lot of bullshit things in the late 1960s, early (19)70s. And I do not believe that their criticisms of the curriculum were justified at all, their criticisms the way universities were run was. But I think what happened in the (19)60s, it was bad that was entirely the fault of the faculty at that time is for some reason they were actually scared of these student demands. And you had two kinds of people. You had had younger faculty members, many of whom threw in their lot with the students who wanted to teach women's studies and so on. And you had older faculty members, the people who wanted to teach the way they always had. The dead white European male curriculum. And they both got their way. And I think it was a very evil and stupid compromise. What they did was they shunted it off, instead of developing a great African American studies curriculum which was taught to every student of American history, they shunted it off into minority studies departments. Instead of including women writers in every English class and making women's studies part of the whole, they shunted it off into women's studies departments. This pleased everybody on campuses. And I was an education reporter for the Washington Post at the time this was happening. It pleased the old guys because they could continue to teach their white studies, their white male studies exactly the way they always taught them. And it pleased the new people because it meant more jobs and more tenure. Everybody got what they wanted. It was bad for education in general. The kind of Balkanization of things that every kid ought to be learning started in the late 1960s. And it was not the fault of the students. It was the fault of the faculty who were supposed to be the grownups but they did not act like it. SM (00:28:58): Yeah. You mentioned in the book too, that tenure was something very important in the (19)50s on college campuses, and then when the (19)60s, mid-(19)60s in particular to maybe around the mid-(19)70s, tenure was not that important. It was basically they were involved in the reacting to the social movements that were happening. SJ (00:29:18): That is not what I said. SM (00:29:19): No? SJ (00:29:20): I did not say anything about tenure at all. But in fact, the way things worked out, the way things worked out, everybody got tenure. People who were involved in the social movements of the (19)60s are the tenured professors who will not leave because they cannot retire on college campuses today. Tenure did not have anything to do with whether you were fighting the establishment than at all. Those people got tenure too. Those women's studies professors got tenure, the African American studies... And there are campuses with African American studies departments. Harvard is one of them, [inaudible] where in fact, lots of kids of all races go. But what happened in most campuses was they became an enclave for minority students and meant that the minority students were not learning everything they should learn, and the white students sure as hell were not learning everything they should learn. But as for tenure, that is my whole point. Everybody got it. That is why everybody was happy with what happened. SM (00:30:19): You do a great job also in the book of the criticisms of the neocons toward anybody that was involved in any kind of protest or activism at that particular time. Bring up Irving Crystal and Norman, is it Podhoretz? SJ (00:30:35): Podhoretz. Well, they are ancient. SM (00:30:39): Yeah. And commentary. But they were the old left, and their attitudes toward the (19)60s. How do you react to the current neocons? When New Gingrich came into power in 1994, when the Republicans came in, he made some strong commentaries. SJ (00:30:55): Remember, the Newtster was coming of age of the (19)60s. SM (00:30:58): Yeah. SJ (00:30:59): He was part of that other (19)60s. SM (00:31:00): Yeah. Yeah. He was there and then you had the Bill Crystals of the world who were coming on. And then even today on Fox, you see a lot of the criticisms of the (19)60s. There is a lot of the reasons why we are having a problems in our society today was looking back at the drug culture. SJ (00:31:27): Well, by the way, those people in Fox do not know any more about the (19)60s than most of America knows about ancient Greek or Latin. They do not know anything about it. There is this image of the (19)60s frozen in time. I think that is probably really what Tom Hayden was objecting to. The idea that people who were protesting things in the (19)60s were just free lovers and dopers and that was it. And that is all there was to the (19)60s. People who wanted to do anything that they wanted to do. SM (00:31:58): One of the things, it is a generation gap. It was very obvious. I remember on Life Magazine, they had that front cover with that young man and he had his glasses on. In one side of the glass was his father pointing at him and he was pointing back at his dad. So the generation gap between parents and their kids was very obvious at that particular time. But also in that book, the Wounded Generation, Jim Wetton made a commentary at the symposium back in 1980 that the real generation gap was not between parents. The generation Gap was those who served in Vietnam, and when they were called to serve their nation, they went and those who did not. SJ (00:32:38): Well, that was not a generation gap. That is a culture gap. SM (00:32:41): But he called it a... And actually, he went even further by saying that oftentimes the (19)60s generation is supposed to be the Peace Corps generation, the Vista, the service, that they took the words of Kennedy and they used it whether to go into service or to go into the Peace Corps. He says they are not a service generation because they did not serve. A lot of them refused to serve. SJ (00:33:05): Jim Webb, by the way, is not a baby boomer, I believe. SM (00:33:09): I do not know. I think he is about 44. SJ (00:33:12): Yeah. He is very young. But I would say that that is true. That in general, all of the children of the (19)60s were not the service generation. But if you go back to Vietnam, to say that people who did not serve were just motivated by selfishness, that is not just wrong. It is true that they did not want to get shot at, but they did not want to get shot at for this particular thing. I do not know whether Jim Webb thinks the Vietnam War was worthwhile or not. I do not to this day think the Vietnam War was worthwhile. What did we get out of it except all of those dead? And Vietnam is now what it was always going to be. A communist country far from our sphere of influence. And the countries we are fighting in now, Iraq and Afghanistan, are going to be Muslim countries far from our sphere of influence when all of this is over. I do. But I think as somebody who remembers the Vietnam War, I think not just somebody who has heard about it, which is all Jim Webb has. He has heard about it. He does not remember the Vietnam War. He knows only what he has been told at the Military Academy about the Vietnam War. And I like Jim Webb. SM (00:34:31): Well, he served in Vietnam. SJ (00:34:37): He served in Vietnam? SM (00:34:37): Yes, he did. SJ (00:34:37): Oh. So he is not [inaudible] then. SM (00:34:37): No, he served in Vietnam. SJ (00:34:37): He did? SM (00:34:39): Yes. SJ (00:34:40): Are you sure? SM (00:34:40): Yes. And of course his son is serving in Iraq- SJ (00:34:43): Right. SM (00:34:44): Has done two tours. SJ (00:34:45): Well, if Jim Webb thinks the Vietnam War was worthwhile, I do not agree with him. And if he thinks that in order to be of the service generation you had to serve in Vietnam, I do not agree with him. You could call young Nazis members of the service generation too. They served the Nazis. And I do not buy that... These members of the service generation too, they served the Nazis. And by that, I assure you I do not mean that people who served in Vietnam were Nazis. I mean, because you do not choose a particular kind of way to serve. But I will tell you this, that I think far worse than anything that happened in terms of culture division in Vietnam is what is happening today. I think that to have an all-volunteer army, which of course was the direct result of the fact that so many people did not want to serve and used education and privilege to get out of the draft, I think the all-volunteer army is far worse. I think the reason that even now, I do not think America is paying any attention to these wars, to how many people are being killed, and I think the direct reason they are not paying any attention to it is that their sons and daughters do not have to go if they do not want to. My parents were moderate Republicans who opposed the Vietnam War. My father was a veteran. They did not think the Vietnam War was worth fighting. They opposed it because they were terrified that their son was going to get drafted, my brother. He did not, but I do not think they would have any position if they were the same kind of people today on the Iraq War. They would not have to worry about my brother being drafted. My father saw absolutely no analogy between Vietnam and World War II, and he was not a liberal. SM (00:36:42): When you look at the whole Jane Fonda situation, and I have interviewed- SJ (00:36:49): Jane is another one of those iconographic (19)60s people. SM (00:36:52): Yeah. We saw her when she was at the New School this past year, I think it was in February, talking about her whole career. It was unbelievable. It was a tremendous hour and a half program there. But when you look at... Oftentimes entertainers themselves are being criticized today. You should just be an entertainer. That is not your role. SJ (00:37:13): That is ridiculous. SM (00:37:14): When you go back to the (19)60s, you can always remember John Wayne, Martha Ray, Bob Hope, which would be- SJ (00:37:22): Of course. SM (00:37:23): ...The gung ho for the troops. Then you had the Donald Sutherlands, the Jane Fonda, the [inaudible] SJ (00:37:30): There is no reason why entertainers should not use their celebrity any way that they want. And by the way, while I am thinking of it, this is not a question you are asking, but you know were asking about boomers and boom and all of that. I do not know about boom, but of course now the boomers... I have a new book coming out in February. SM (00:37:53): You do? SJ (00:37:54): It is called Never Say Die, the Myth and the Marketing of the New Old Age. And here is another thing, and here is why Tom Hayden is very wrong that this was just a moment in time. Oldest boomers turned 65 next year in 2011, the oldest boomers turned 65. By 2030, unless there is some kind of a catastrophe, which of course there always could be, there are going to be 8.5 million Americans over the age of 85, most of them boomers. Now, there is a... And this is related to the age of American unreason because there is also one thing older and younger boomers have in common: a kind of forever young state of mind, whether they are or not. This is hitting the boomers hard now, and this is what my next book is about. There is now the same kind of propaganda about the New Old Age that there was in about boomers being completely different from their parents, in that there is a mindset that says, if only we live right, if only we work hard enough, this phrase defying old age comes up all the time. It is a boomer mindset, a mindset in which... And it is also very much a mindset of the (19)70s after the (19)60s, the retreat into the personal growth kind of thing. But if you just work hard enough, if you live right, your old age is not going to be at 90. I went to this panel two years ago, three years ago called "90 is the New 50". Jane was in the audience, by the way. Well, I could answer you whether 90 is the new 50. It is not, but the boomers are going to be affecting ideas about old age thus far in a very unrealistic sort of way for quite a while. As far as a lot of boomers are concerned, the only people who get Alzheimer's disease are people who did not exercise enough and who ate too many carbs and got too fat. If you live to be more than 85, you have a 50 percent chance of getting Alzheimer's disease. It is evident. Facts cannot be denied. And that is something that a certain fantasy part of the boomer generation has always tried to do. The Boomer attitude toward old age now is exactly like the attitude of aging boomer women who wanted to have natural childbirth, which is they believed if they only it, childbirth would not hurt. SM (00:40:37): Well, I know that boomers do not want to have senior citizen centers. SJ (00:40:41): Hell no. SM (00:40:44): They want to get rid of that word senior citizen. SJ (00:40:48): Look, I used the word old in my new book. The word old is the word boomers hate. Hello, I am just 65. How many 130-year-old do you see walking around? I am not middle aged. They are not middle-aged. By 2030, none of us are going to be anywhere near middle-aged. We are going to be old. SM (00:41:11): It is interesting, you go to any park or any place, people are running, walking, exercising, biking. Doctors will say that will extend your lifespan. SJ (00:41:22): No they do not. They say it is good for you now. No good doctor says... It is good for you in a million different ways. Whether it will extend your life, your healthy lifespan, is completely unknown. I know the AARP which is now run by boomers, of course, the AARP for which I have written for many times, and God bless them, I love them. The AARP, the attitude about the new old age is this: it is okay to be old as long as you pretend you are not. So as the AARP concentrates on the 95-year-old sky diver, the 90-year-old who are having great sex, of course there cannot be very many of them among women because most women who are 90 years old do not have partners. And if you noticed ads for Viagra, which was actually intended either for people who had things like diabetes or for people over 65, 70, the people in ads for Viagra are all in their 40s. They do not want to present the real age at which Viagra is really aimed. What they want to say in these commercials is that if you take Viagra, it will be just like it was 20, 30 years ago. SM (00:42:40): Well, you hit on some... SJ (00:42:41): But this is related to the boomer generation. SM (00:42:43): Oh, yes. SJ (00:42:45): ...Because the boomers are getting old. SM (00:42:48): And I think when they were younger, they felt... This is another thing too. When I was in school, there was this feeling that we were going to change the world, we were going to end the war, bring peace, end all the racism, sexism, homophobia, clean up the environment. There was this attitude that... Not a hundred percent of the people, but the activists had that they were going to make a difference in this world. SJ (00:43:14): And we did make a difference in a lot of ways. Look, would you rather be Black in America today or would you rather have been Black before the Civil Rights Movement? Would you rather be a woman in America today, or would you rather be a woman from Mad Men? These changes in women's lives, and I am not discounting for a minute that what we are seeing now is ugly, and the idea that this was kind of eradicated either then or now is ridiculous, and anybody with their brain in their head knows it. But the fact is the progress that was made in opportunities for minorities, the progress that was made in opportunities for women, is absolutely undeniable. It was not better to be African American or Hispanic or female in 1960 than it is today. It is much better to be all of those things today. SM (00:44:06): You talked a lot about – SJ (00:44:06): Wait until he gets done with this. SM (00:44:16): Busy park. How we doing time-wise? SJ (00:44:18): We have been at it for about- SM (00:44:20): 45 minutes? SJ (00:44:21): Oh, more than that. We can go on. I am comfortable here and get this done maybe. SM (00:44:26): I forget what I was going to ask. Oh, I will come back to it. When you look at the period that boomers had been alive, which is 1946... Oh, I know the question I was going to ask. Many people have said to me during my interviews, when you look at Bill Clinton and when you look at George Bush number two, you can tell they are boomers. Just a general comment. You can tell they are boomers. What do you think they are seeing when they say that? SJ (00:44:57): I have no idea. I mean, they both behave like boomers politically in a sense. I do not know what they mean by that, if you look at them, you can tell that they are boomers. But I can tell that they are boomers because I know they are the age they are. They have to be boomers. I actually do not have any... I cannot venture a comment on that because I do not know what they mean. If they mean a style of politics which is a little less buttoned up, maybe that is what they mean, but I do not know what they mean by if you look at Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, you can tell they are boomers. Do they both smoke pot? Yeah, when they were young. I do not know what that says. SM (00:45:43): I think some were referring to George Bush as well, my way or the highway kind of mentality that some of the activists had in the (19)60s and Bill Clinton with his Monica Lewinsky. SJ (00:46:00): Well, yeah. As we know, politicians who are not boomers never have extramarital sex. This is ridiculous. There is this tendency on the part of the right to attribute everything they do not like, that they imagine to be true about the boomer generation to it being the boomer generation. How can anybody make this ridiculous statement about Monica Lewinsky being an example of a typical boomer mindset? Exactly what generation of politicians has not had sex scandals? The only difference was in the past is that the public did not know about it because the press did not write about it. SM (00:46:38): What did that period, 1946 to 1960, how did that shape the very, very young boomers with respect to the issue of fear? We already talked about McCarthyism, which was on television in the early (19)50s, so the front running boomers would have seen that. Then you had the- SJ (00:46:58): It affected... I remember the air raid drills when we would crouch under the desk, which was supposed protect us from radiation. I do not know a single person my age or who was a sentient being in the early (19)50s who does not remember the fear of the bomb. Exactly how much that shaped us, I do not know. The nature of being young is not to be fearful. I can remember the air raid drills and thinking it was silly, but I do not come from a typical family. My family, while they were not liberal or left at all, but they were sort of completely indifferent to that sort of sort of thing. SM (00:47:46): I think across the board, whether it is accurate- SJ (00:47:51): I think a lot of it would have depended on what kind of a family you came from. SM (00:47:56): Well, three adjectives that I lean on here in describing the early life of boomers as a whole is fear, and fear being that you talk about the bomb and growing up with the Cold War and obviously the communist, looking for communists everywhere. Naive, naivety, because I believe that (19)50s television was all about that, and you really had to read between the lines. And being quiet. SJ (00:48:27): Quiet? SM (00:48:30): Being quiet. I think that history thought boomers really never started speaking, I mean, being outspoken until the (19)60s. SJ (00:48:41): Well, first of all, boomers in the (19)50s were little kids. SM (00:48:41): They were in the junior high school, though, in the early (19)60s. SJ (00:48:46): We do not tend to take down the utterances of little kids, but I think you are very wrong about. I think you are conflating something, the silent generation, which was people who came of age in the (19)50s, with the boomers. I think on the contrary, child-rearing was much more permissive in the 1950s. I do not think people are wrong for good as well as for bad, to say that Dr. Spock's ideas about child-rearing, which while in some ways very traditional, were much freer than the kind of child-rearing people of my parents' generation were brought up with. I think in fact, although boomers, every little word was not taken as seriously as kids are today, I think that boomers grew up in a much freer, more outspoken atmosphere and said things that would not have been allowed for their parents to say when they were children, but I do not think... The (19)60s did not come out of nowhere. They did not come out of nowhere. It is not like a switch was turned on. And you have got to remember that the election of John F. Kennedy, the oldest boomers were 14 when John F. Kennedy was elected, in some ways, that was still the (19)50s, but in some ways too, that also felt like the dawn of a new day. I would say quite the opposite. Yes, there was the bomb and all of that. Did I really think anybody was going to drop a bomb on me when I was... I think, in fact, the boomers were brought up with a great deal more security and entitlement than their parents were. I would say it was quite the opposite of fear. Life was pretty nice for a child in the 1950s if you came from a middle class family. And I do stress that if you came from a middle class family life growing up in the 1950s. If you grew up in a ghetto, or if you were a poor white or black person growing up in the South... Bill Clinton's early life was very different from mine, but what was different by the time he got into college in the (19)60s is there were scholarships for bright young [inaudible]. Bill Clinton, he had been born in generation earlier, he had have been no one. He had have been white trash, because there would not have been any way for a boy like that to go to college. SM (00:51:09): Right. You cannot forget about Native Americans as well during the 1950s on the reservations. SJ (00:51:15): They were not on the radar at all, but the life of the poor and the middle class and the (19)50s was very different. It was certainly as different as it is today, and you just cannot... That is one of the reasons why a lot of the anger today was there... A lot of the other (19)60s were not just the rich people like the Bushes, it was also working-class people. And there are people who did not make it out of the working class in the 1950s and the 1960s. My family made it out of the working class in the 1950s and their children, there was never any thought that we were going to be part of that blue collar class, which was only a half generation away in our family. But a lot of Americans do. SM (00:52:05): This afternoon, I will be speaking to Marvin [inaudible]. He is going to talk about growing up African American in Detroit in the (19)60s. SJ (00:52:12): How old is he? SM (00:52:13): Oh, he has got same age as [inaudible]. He has got to be probably mid-(19)60s. SJ (00:52:18): He is the same age as I am. SM (00:52:20): Yeah, and he does not live in America anywhere. He lives in Mexico. He just happens to be visiting friends here. SJ (00:52:25): Well, that will be a very interesting interview because Detroit in the mid (19)60s was changing rapidly, and the mid (19)60s is a period when the whites just basically abandoned Detroit and Detroit was just abandoned. That should be a very interesting interview. SM (00:52:42): He and another person wrote a book on the labor unions in Detroit at that time and how they took on the black power and the Black Panther mentality in the labor union. In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end, and what was the watershed moment? SJ (00:53:00): Actually, I think the (19)60s really began around 1963, and not just with the Kennedy assassination. I think one of the things that you definitely felt when you were a teenager in the early 1960s, there is a big cultural change that started to happen. Although the early (19)60s, Man Men is not wrong about this. In some ways, they were more like the 1950s than they were the later prior to the (19)60s, but in some ways they were not. And one thing that happens in the early (19)60s is that, first of all, there begins to be strong concern in mainstream America about peace. You get movies like On The Beach, which was a big hit. Movies of the kind that would have been considered commie only five years before. You have 1964, you have two movies, Dr. Strangelove, which is an iconic movie, and Fail Safe. The Fail Safe movie came out just before that. What they both were about were movies suggesting that war might happen by accident, not by the evil of communism, and we do not want to be thinking about that. There is a very big change that starts in those early years of the (19)60s. Not exactly at 1960, but I would say that the minute John Kennedy began talking about nuclear disarmament, which coincided with this cultural moment when movies questioning whether war necessarily arose from the total evil of the enemy, I think that is where the (19)60s really begin. They end with the end of the Vietnam War. You have a lot of things. I consider the women's movement, which is really early (19)70s, really it is a (19)60s phenomenon. Although the women's women really does not begin to... Boy, they sure empty the garbage a lot, which is good. I think the (19)60s really end with the end of the Vietnam War and kind of the beginning of the consolidation of what the women's movement was gaining. [inaudible] and women's movement is really the late (19)70s, not the (19)60s. SM (00:55:32): Give us a watershed moment. Was there a watershed moment? [inaudible] to pick a moment that stands out. SJ (00:55:49): As to when the (19)60s ended? SM (00:55:49): No, just the whole period of the (19)60s. SJ (00:55:49): Well, to me, the watershed moment was... Of course there is document original about this, it is 1968. It was not when the (19)60s ended, but the assassinations of Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy within months of each other, it certainly changed my frame of mind about what was possible. This is followed right away by the election of Richard Nixon, and the election of Richard Nixon, it was not just old people who voted for Richard Dixon. The (19)60s were not going to turn out to be a turning point in history toward what I would have said were my values, this becomes pretty obvious by the end of 1968. SM (00:56:33): Do you remember the exact moment you heard that John Kennedy was killed. Do you remember the... Most people do. Where were you when you heard? SJ (00:56:40): I was buying a dress in a shop in East Lansing, Michigan, but what I remember more and what meant more to me is I also remember where I was when Bobby Kennedy was killed and when Martin Luther King was killed. And when Martin Luther King was killed, I was at home at my house on Capitol Hill, my apartment on Capitol Hill, and I just immediately jumped in a cab and went straight to the Washington Post because I knew that the city was going to go up in flames, which it did. I was a reporter for the post. When Robert Kennedy was killed, I was in Frankfurt Airport changing flames for Kenya where I was going to meet my fiancé. Everybody in Frankfurt airport was crying. And that is when I learned and I said to myself, this is the end of my hope. It was not, of course, but it felt like it. SM (00:57:36): As a person has written a lot of great books and analyzed America from different angles, when you look at the assassinations of Kennedy, King, and Kennedy again, what does it say about America? Is it that if you speak up too much, they are going to do you in, or what does it say? SJ (00:58:11): What it says to me, and believe you me, I have been thinking about a lot this week, what it said to me is that there is a lot of free-floating anger and rage in our culture, which I do not think it had anything to do with speaking up per se, but when you do become a lightning rod for people who feel threatened, there is no shortage of the true combination of craziness and evil that takes a gun out and shoots. And I have been thinking about that a lot. It feels to me, I am not saying it is, but what is going on right now feels to me very much like things felt to me in the late 1960s. Only worse because- SM (00:59:06): Hold that thought. I am want to turn my tapes over here. SJ (00:59:17): Well, it feels to me in 2010 as we approach this anniversary of the terrorist attacks, it feels to me, although it is not the same cast of characters, but I have the same really uneasy feeling I had in 1968, which is I have this feeling that anything could happen. That there is a lot of unfocused rage out there added to even more ignorance than existed in 1968 because I do believe people know us. I do believe that the 24-hour news cycle, the web and so on have made us stupider, not smarter. They have given us more information, but I believe in terms of logical thinking, in terms of the ability to remember anything that happened before 10 minutes ago, I think we have a worse and more stupid culture than we did in 1968. But I feel the same kind of anger around me. I am not saying I am right. I am saying it feels kind of the same to me now, which is bad. And that it feels the same to a lot of people who live through that time right now, I have this feeling that I do not know where the ground quite is beneath me, what is going to happen next. When some crackpot leader of a congregation of 50 people in Gainesville, Florida gets a call from the Secretary of Defense begging him not to burn the Quran, it makes me feel like almost anything could happen. SM (01:00:58): And also recently with- SJ (01:01:01): I hope that this is a feeling and not a fact. SM (01:01:04): Well, I have a feeling because I have been studying lately the football player that was killed by friendly fire. SJ (01:01:11): Pat Tillman. SM (01:01:12): Pat Tillman. Unbelievable. And the latest is that he was murdered because he was going to come back in the United States and be an anti-war protestor. He and his brother had, some of his close associates had seen enough. He was going to finish his time, but he was going to come back, and there was a worry that he would come back and that would be terrible to have the number one guy that everybody know about- SJ (01:01:44): Well, what I would say about this, that this idea is around, is part of what makes it feel like 1968. This is probably not true, probably it is just the Army covered its ass, as it always tries to do after friendly fire. But the fact that this rumor, that these conspiracy theories are all out there, and we see more of them on the right than on the left at the moment, but the existence of conspiracy theories in which a lot of people believe... Not saying whether they are true or not, but it is a sign that there is a lot of dangerous anger out there. SM (01:02:22): I agree. And of course we all worried about President Obama when he came into power as somebody wanted to knock him off. SJ (01:02:30): Well, I am still worried about that. SM (01:02:32): Who won the battles in the (19)60s? Who won the battle? SJ (01:02:39): Which battle are you talking about? SM (01:02:40): Basically the liberals versus conservatives. Who really won? It was very obvious- SJ (01:02:46): The left won the culture war, the political war was a draw as we see very well. If the left had won the political war, we would not have the kind of problems that we have today. Richard Nixon would never have been elected President. Ronald Reagan would never have been elected president. Loads of baby boomers voted for Ronald Reagan. SM (01:03:10): Yes, I know. SJ (01:03:13): So the left definitely did not win the political war, but I said the left won the culture war, it did in the sense that a lot of the lifestyle changes of the (19)60s were adopted on the right as well as the left. SM (01:03:27): Nixon always used the term silent majority, and the silent majority, there were a lot of young people that were in that silent majority as well. SJ (01:03:35): That is right, that is right. SM (01:03:37): And one of the criticisms of the (19)60s generation or the boomers or the activists, they always say that in the generation of 78 million, only about 15 percent were ever involved in any kind of activism. Even some of the strongest activists I have talked to have said 15? It is more like five. SJ (01:03:58): Yeah, I would agree with them. But that alone is not a measure because there are a lot of ideas which were shared by people who were not activists. Again, in a way I am atypical, but everybody says this. When I was 24 years old, I got married to the Moscow correspondent to the Washington Post and moved to Moscow with him for two and a half years where I wrote my first book, and did not go back to newspaper writing because I wanted to write books and magazine articles. But I was very affected by my time in Russia in this, that many of the cultural concerns of my contemporaries seemed very trivial to me when I came back. And it also affected me very much after [inaudible] some of the bad educational things that happened in the (19)60s. I was in Russia, a country where there was no such thing as popular entertainment that was bearable. If you wanted to do anything that was fun in Russia, it was listening to classical music, it was reading classics, because those were the only kind of good books that were available. And so that in a way, in Russia, I got the education that I missed when I was in college because there was no such thing as a popular entertainment culture there that was anything but anything but controlled by the party. So in a way, in Russia, I had to read poetry and classics with an intensity that I had never read before, and the only kind of music I could hear was good music. I just laugh. I just laugh when I see this silly book about Bob Dylan, that Sean Wilentz, who is another child of the (19)60s, just published. The idea of Bob Dylan is a great artist, to me, is ridiculous. And I know why it is ridiculous to me. Because when everybody else was listening to The Stones and Bob Dylan... I know who genius poets were. They were [inaudible] and [inaudible]. Bob Dylan is not a genius of a poet. And it is an example of a low educational standards of a lot of my generation, that this guy is taken seriously as anything but a singer of his generation, which in that respect, he was perfectly good. SM (01:06:23): What did you think of Rod McKuen? SJ (01:06:25): Rod McKuen was the worst. SM (01:06:28): How about the beat writers? SJ (01:06:31): The beat writers fall a whole different category. They were earlier and after something else. Al Ginsburg is a great poet. Rod McKuen is not. Rod McKuen was liked by both the left and the right, by the way. In a lot of pop culture of the (19)60s, you have a cultural... That is why I say the left and in general stupid won the culture war in the 1960s. 1960s is when you begin to see a lot of decline in a lot of things that I value. I am not sure if I had not spent... Ages 24 to 26, I was in Russia. These are very formative years. I was not listening to The Stones or Bob Dylan. There was a little pot in Moscow. SM (01:07:24): What do you consider to be the major failures of the movement? The movement or the movements? SJ (01:07:40): I do not think the Civil Rights Movement failed in any way, except in the sense that undermining something as potent as racial discrimination and racial stereotypes in a country that was founded upon slavery is not the work of 10 years or 20 years, or as we see now, to paraphrase John Kennedy, even in our lifetime on this Earth. I do not think the Civil Rights Movement was a failure at all. I think it was a complete success. They failed to persuade probably 25 percent of people in this country now as then that they were right is not a failure. They persuaded a lot of people that they were right. When we got through the Civil rights movement, you heard about anybody being lynched lately? No. I do not think the civil rights movement was a failure in any way. The anti-war movement was clearly a failure. It failed to end the war. It was not the movement's fault. The entrenched nature of what Eisenhower called the military industrial complex is too much for anybody burning their draft cards and American flags on college campuses. Clearly, the anti-war movement, in terms of changing a kind of reflexive respect for the military, was a failure. I would say that one of the greatest disappointments of my adult lifetime is, as far as I can see, to me, the war in Afghanistan resembles the futility of the war in Vietnam much more than any other, that we did not learn anything from our experience in Vietnam. We did not learn much about the limits of American power in a totally different culture, very, very far from home. And by the way, when you think about that war now, when you think about, let us say the Viet Cong and the Taliban, you understand the Viet Cong were practically kissing cousins in relation to us compared to the values of somebody like the Taliban. As we now see, we are a country with all sorts of commercial relations with- See, we are a country with all sorts of commercial relations with Vietnam. Vietnam is part of the world in which we live. The parts of the Muslim world controlled by people like the Taliban are not. But so I would say the anti-war movement was absolutely a failure, both in the short term in the war went on for years until 1975, and in the long term, in terms of making people more skeptical about this kind of careless exercise of American power. The women, the women's movement was a success in that it opened up a lot more educational and economic opportunities to women. Whether, I think it probably was, I would not say that the women's movement was a failure. People say things are still bad for women who want to raise a family and have a career. That is true, but I do not exactly see that as a failure any more than I see the fact that that Americans who hate Barack Obama will not admit that race has anything to do with it today. I do not see that as a failure of the civil rights movement any more than I see the fact that it is still tough to have a family and a career as a woman. I see those as entrenched structural problems that the civil rights movement and the women's movement made a good start on that nobody could have expected would be solved even by now. SM (01:11:39): You do not have to go into any sense of detail, but then you have got the Native American movement, which many people felt was only a four-year movement. With aim starting in Alcatraz and ending at Wounded Knee, although the Native American movement had been going on for a long time. And then of course you had the Chicano movement and farm workers and of course the environmental movement and the gay and lesbian movement, so they were all- SJ (01:12:06): Well, the gay and lesbian movement, it starts where the (19)60s end really. I mean, I am in the gay rights movement. I mean the enormous chance that has taken place that started at Stonewall, but it really does not begin to, all you need to do is look at the different attitudes of young people and older people and as the difference between people who are not old enough to be boomers and boomers too. Boomers have far more negative attitudes about gay than the next generation down. Our parents have far more negative attitudes about gay than the Boomers did. These things take a long time. I do not think that the gay rights movement has failed because a lot of people still hate gays, and I think that the one thing that has not changed in American society is the vast influence of a very retrograde form of religion, which is unique to the United States, which is something that progressives in every generation, beginning with the deists of the 18th century have thought were going to be gone by the next generation that has not. The influence of fundamentalist religion, and I do not mean evangelical religion, I mean fundamentalist religion, the kind of religion that takes seriously and believes that lives should be ordered by the writings In Sacred Books. The Taliban are fundamentalist Muslims. The fundamentalist Christians are fundamentalist Christians. The Jews out in living in their little Hasidic sheddles in Brooklyn, are fundamentalist Jews. They believe that all of this is to be taken literally, they are a real threat in American society. The biggest threat are the Christians, simply because the fun there are more fundamentalist Christians than there are fundamentalist anything else in America. It is unique. It is a failure. It is a failure. I will not go into a lot of this. Read Free Thinkers if you want to, but it is something that is, we are the only country in the developed world in which a third of our citizens do not accept that evolution is not a scientific reality. SM (01:14:22): You talk about the anti-intellectual atmosphere that came out of the (19)60s, but you did talk about how during John Kennedy's three years, there was a hope there that there was an intellectual development taking place because of the people that he hired, the thinkers, the idea people, and of course dealing with the sciences and Sputnik and all the other, but then you see the comparison. Mario Savio in 1964 said that- SJ (01:14:53): I still have a Savio for state senate. SM (01:14:56): Well, I like the guy. He was right on target and he said that the fact is that the battle in the university should the university's about ideas. It is not about being the corporate takeover of everything. SJ (01:15:10): Exactly. SM (01:15:11): And we are back to the corporate takeover of everything right now. SJ (01:15:15): Well back. We are at a worst place. Yeah, it is in relation to that than we ever were then. Yeah. Well, we did not know what a real corporate takeover of everything was then. We only thought we did. SM (01:15:29): Well, Clark Kurt talked about the knowledge factory, but what did the universities learn from the (19)60s that makes them better prepared to work with the student activist in particular today? SJ (01:15:41): First of all, there are not any student activists today. I mean, there are few, but the universities did not learn anything from the (19)60s as far as I can see, and what they learned, what the universities learned from the (19)60s was how to dumb down their standards enough to please stupid students that were among the activists as among everybody else. There were highly brilliant activists. I think Mario Savio was one of them, by the way. I had the greatest respect for him. Yes, Todd Gitlin too. There were student active-. There were two activists. He got less smart as he got older. There were student activists who were smart and there were student activists who were dumb. The university never had any ability to distinguish between those two groups at all. The reason they did what they did was they did not want any shortage of their gravy train. They actually, I do not know who told you 15 percent was too high an estimate, but they were right. SM (01:16:43): Several people, several people. SJ (01:16:44): But somehow the universities actually thought that parents were going to stop sending their kids to college if they did not shut up these activists on campus, which was never going to happen, and so they got the worst of all possible worlds when instead of truly reforming the curriculum in a good way, that would have added the knowledge that people need about every part of history to the general curriculum. They shunned it off into ghetto studies. By ghetto, I mean ghetto women's studies. Ghetto queer studies, which is ridiculous too. Whatever is necessary to know about any minority is necessary for everyone to know. It is not necessary only for the minority or the interested few to know. SM (01:17:32): After the Kennedy assassination, I think you said that things changed in the universities, that the Sputnik, and the science, and math, and the importance of those things. But then when he died and then the university, something happened within the university. Clark Clerk talks about it, the knowledge factory. It is like the IBM mentality. SJ (01:17:50): The emphasis on science did not change at all. That was right. That is when the money was always there for science, but what changed the late 1960s and largely as a result of faculty yielding to this pressure of this 5 percent or whatever it was, was that people were not required to learn a common core of knowledge. I think that, by the way, I think they are right, people like Diane Ravitch are absolutely right about that. And Arthur Schlesinger Jr, who of course came from the opposite political thing. I think that they are absolutely right about the decline of common core knowledge. I think that as far, I think that the faculty of the late (19)60s and early (19)70s covered itself with disgrace by settling for this non-solution of dumbing down general humanities courses. Telling students they could decide basically what they wanted to take, and there has been a swing the other way, but so much has been lost. So much has been lost in terms of what people have been not required to learn over the last 30 years, but I do not know if anything can ever- SM (01:19:05): Well it is a well-known fact- SJ (01:19:06): And computers have made it so much worse. SM (01:19:09): It was a well-known fact as I experienced it myself, that students of the (19)60s would make demands within the university knowing that if those demands were met, they would demand other things that they could not demand. So nothing would ever please them. SJ (01:19:26): Of course. SM (01:19:26): Do you think that kind of a mentality of that small percentage of activists who were really publicized highly by the media as the example of the (19)60s- SJ (01:19:34): The spokesmen. SM (01:19:37): Spokesmen of the (19)60s, has anything to do with the atmosphere that we had today, which was probably the same back then as not listening to each other? It is my way or the highway kind of mentality. SJ (01:19:51): Well, again, I think it is worse now beyond anything we could have imagined then. Again, I do mean in a way I agree that the power of the quote activists was exaggerated. Look, I mean, I know a lot of these people were thought to be flame throwing activists. Some of them turned into extremely intelligent great scholars by the end of the 1970s. Some of them did not. But I think what, what is going on now, I do not relate it in a direct line to the (19)60s at all. I think that people, I cannot imagine, for instance, anybody like Sarah Palin even being listened to in the 1960s. When if you think who was the conservative political hero in the (19)60s, Barry Goldwater, if you think about him and Sarah Palin, just put them in the same time. Put them in the same frame for a second, and if you want to see an example of the degeneration of political and intellectual culture, just see that. Barry Goldwater is a giant compared to Sarah Palin. Sarah Palin is somebody who knows nothing and is proud of it. There were people like that in the (19)60s, but they were not proud of it. They did not build careers out of it. SM (01:21:15): I have a couple quotes here and we will end on these quotes. SJ (01:21:19): Okay, I got to stop for you because I am losing my voice. SM (01:21:24): You have a quote here. "The denigration of fairness has infected both political and intellectual life and has now produced a culture in which disproportionate influence is exercised by the loud and relentless voices of single-minded men and women of one persuasion or another." SJ (01:21:41): More true now in the second year of Obama than it was when I wrote them in 2007. Sadly, one of the most bewildering things that is that is happened is that Obama, forget about whether you agree with some of the things he does or not. Obama is clearly a man of reason. I think in many ways he got elected because people were sick of the dumbness of George Bush, but when people got him, the biggest criticism made of him is that he is too cerebral. He is out of touch with what ordinary people feel. I think undoubtedly Obama's great strength and weakness is that he is a reasonable man and I do not think he could really believe that so many of his countrymen are as unreasonable and irrational as they are. I think it is a difficult, I think then this could be fatal to him if he does not understand it, that he is dealing with a lot of people who cannot be reasoned with it all. SM (01:22:43): Would you also say, and I think you have said this in your book, that in the 1960s, at least on college campuses, when someone came in from a different point of view, students will be there in numbers protesting? SJ (01:22:55): Absolutely. SM (01:22:55): And challenging, whereas today it is all like-minded people. SJ (01:23:02): Absolutely. It is all like-minded people who go to your like-minded people. SM (01:23:05): I got two more quotes and then we are going to end. I love this and it is in the introduction here. "In today's America, intellectuals and non-intellectual alike, whether on the left or right, tend to tune out any voice that is not an echo. This obduracy is both a manifestation of mental laziness and the essence of anti-intellectualism." SJ (01:23:29): Yes, I agree with agree with that writer. SM (01:23:31): Yeah. I got a lot of quotes here and my last one here is you put Thomas Jefferson's quote at the very beginning. "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." SJ (01:23:45): That is right. Why do not they just replace In God We Trust on the coins with ignorant and proud of it? I do not think in this book, I do not think that you should neglect religion. I think that- SM (01:23:56): I am not going to. SJ (01:23:58): Now, I think there were, there is a lot, remember the big-time cover story in 1968, God is Dead. Well, that is a real big mistake we made in the 1960s, and again, the whole fundamentalist upsurge was not something that the media and in liberal intellectuals were aware of at all. SM (01:24:18): The Terry Falwells of the world- SJ (01:24:21): Unfortunately, not only is God not Dead, I would not care if he were alive for reasonable people, but a particularly unreasonable kind of God is not dead. SM (01:24:33): Last question and I know it is hard. Boomers are now reaching 65, as you say, and the youngest ones are getting towards 50. When we are long gone, when Boomers are long gone. What do you think the historians, people like yourself, sociologists, writers will say about this generation or better yet the period that they lived? What do they say about them? SJ (01:24:59): Well, a lot of it, like a lot of history, will be a crock. It will depend on which history books they are reading. It will depend on whether they are reading my version of the (19)60s or Todd's version of the (19)60s or Bill Crystal's version of the (19)60s. It will depend to some extent on what they think. But I will tell you one thing, and I think about this a lot as a writer and as a scholar. There is one thing I can say for certain. That getting any kind of a rounded picture of who our generation was is going to be much more difficult for a historian 50 years from now than it is for us say to get a picture of people who were born in 1920. Why? We stopped writing letters in the 1960s. This is before the computer. We stopped writing letters when long distance phone rates went way down and we have stopped writing them almost all together since the advent of computers. There is very little record, except for a video record, of the inner lives of people of our generation. The kind of inner lives, you can write an excellent history of what intellectuals and activists, too, in the 1930s were thinking. The record of what people were thinking except for those who actually wrote books stops around 1970. You will never find out, for example, what my life was like from reading my personal correspondence because I do not have any anymore. Because people stopped writing me back around 1975 and that is when I stopped writing that back. Email has done nothing about this. Email is a totally different, non-reflective, instrumental form of communication. SM (01:26:55): You are right on that. SJ (01:26:55): It is gone. I think this is one of the most important things is we are never going to have any sense of what the inner life of this generation was like. Historians are going to find it very difficult. SM (01:27:07): We took students to see John Culver, the former senator from Iowa who was a close friend of Teddy Kennedy, and this is back in the (19)90s, and he said, now that the interview's over, I want to take it back into my office. And he said, I want you to look at these. Have you ever seen these? These are letters, these are love letters between my mom and dad. Have you ever written a letter? No. And we are talking (19)90s now, right? This is in the (19)90s. So love letters. Have you ever sent a love letter to your girlfriend or boyfriend? No. So John Culver is saying, just you look at these and see how beautiful they are. I am going to end with this. SJ (01:27:44): I have just about had it. SM (01:27:47): Yep. Barney Frank said, it is in his book. He wrote a book- SJ (01:27:50): I love Barney Frank. SM (01:27:51): In his book, Speaking Frankly, he said, The Democratic Party to survive, must separate itself from George McGovern, the McGovernites, the people, the anti-war people, all those people that were involved in those movements. If it is to survive this Barney Frank, speaking frankly. SJ (01:28:10): What makes Barney Frank think anybody remembers George McGovern. That is why that would be my question to him. SM (01:28:15): Book in the (19)90s, Speaking Frankly though, he said, and he was saying, and he was not attacking it as a conservative, he was attacking it as a liberal basically saying, if we are going to survive, we have to disassociate ourselves from those people that were in the counterculture and the people that supported George McGovern in (19)72. SJ (01:28:36): And just where does Barney think his place in the party looks to people who think that the Democratic Party ought to disassociated self from people like Barney Frank. He is really, I will tell you, he has really got a nerve. I love him. SM (01:28:51): That was (19)92 though, so anyways. Testing. One, two. (01:29:07): I certainly will. SJ (01:29:08): College guys. Do you want test and see if you are getting a test? SM (01:29:16): I do not know about testing. I know this one is, this is my prize one. This one is. Double check. SJ (01:29:22): Testing one, two. But I am not going to be talking that loud. I could talk a lot louder out here than I can in the cubicle in the library. No, that is okay. SM (01:29:35): We are fine. I will be coming and this one has already started. SJ (01:29:46): No-no clapping. SM (01:29:49): I am going to read these to make sure that they, I get these right. So I am all over the place here, and the first question I am going to ask you is that you wrote a piece in the Wounded Generation, which was a book that came out in 1980. It was a paper back on Vietnam. SJ (01:30:05): Black In The Dark Age. SM (01:30:07): This is the only question I have on that because I have interviewed just about everybody else who was at the symposium. Women in the Vietnam War wrote a piece in the book on the, in the Wounded generation on women in the war. How are Boomer generation women wounded about psychologically, personally from that war, and how important were they in the anti-war movement? SJ (01:30:37): I will tell you honestly, I think that women who were older than the boomer generation were more important in the anti-war movement than women of the Boomer generation. The contact that women of the Boomer generation had with the anti-war movement. Although there were lots of women obviously involved just as there were lots of men. But the fundamental thing is the women were not subject to the draft, did not have any danger of having to fight in that war. So I think unless a woman had a brother or a husband who was actually in the fighting, and this would be very different, the attitudes of people who came from the social class but did most of the fighting. Which then as now meant people who were not going to college, basically blue collar people. They were not as represented in the anti-war movement as were college educated Boomer women. So that I really do not think that that women were affected in the same way that men were, except that women in general were more anti-war than men, and that was true not just for Boomer women, but for all women. SM (01:32:02): Let me just, I will check this one here to make sure. SJ (01:32:03): Let me see if I can get this guy. SM (01:32:03): Oh, okay. SJ (01:32:04): Well, my cell phone is blocking my purse. That is it. Okay. SM (01:32:13): Well, I have read a little bit about your background, from going on the web and also in the book, but how did you become who you are in terms of who were your mentors, your role models? I know you went to Michigan State starting in 63, but who were the people that influenced you the most in your early years? SJ (01:32:33): Do you mean by my early years? Do you mean when I was a kiddo? SM (01:32:37): Yeah, I would say high school, college. SJ (01:32:43): That is an interesting question. I will preface it by saying that I always wanted to be a newspaper reporter. I wanted to be a newspaper reporter from the time I was a kid. And I wanted to be a newspaper reporter because everybody in my family read newspapers and that is what I wanted to do. At Michigan State my college career was somewhat different from other members of the Boomer generation. I did not want to go to college. I was an idiot. I was a classic example of someone who was not in an age where I could most benefit from education, and unlike most people of my generation who stayed in school as long as they could. Men because of the war and women for other reasons, I was determined to get out. I grew up in Okemos, Michigan, which is right near Michigan State. I went to Michigan State for one reason and one reason only. They had an honors college, which enabled you if you kept up a certain grade point to take as many credits as you want and get through as fast as you could. I graduated in just a little over two years. At a better university I would not have been able to do that. At Michigan State. I did. And the reason I did that was I knew that if I had to be in college for four years, I would become a dropout, and there was no way a woman was ever going to get a job as a newspaper reporter if she was a college dropout. I think it is important because I am just on the edge of the baby boom generation, born nine months before it actually started, so when I went to college, it was between 1963 and 1965. This was before what people think of as quote the (19)60s. When I entered Michigan State, there were parietal rules. I was almost expelled for being found doing nothing in a boys off-campus apartment. That is what the real, in other words, this is a totally different experience from being that age five years later when all of that stuff had gone out the window. So in many ways, things for me at that age were more like what they were for people in the (19)50s than they were for the Boomers who came of age only five years later. And I knew I could not stand living under this regime, which kept you as a child, particularly if you were a woman. This is before feminism, and so I wanted to get through as fast as possible. Nevertheless, I have to say I went to, I took any course I wanted because that is another thing you could do at the Honors College. I took Russian and I majored in journalism, and there were some great journalism professors there. A lot of them were people who had been newspapermen in Wisconsin during the McCarthy era and had lost their jobs because of it. And John Hanna, who was then the president of Michigan State, hired a lot of those people. He was very strong about, not about McCarthy, did not like him. He was a liberal Republican. They were still liberal and the chairman of the US Civil Rights Commission as well, which practically made you a communist in the eyes of the McCarthyites. Anyway, but the best thing my professors did for me was they made me realize I had to have a huge amount of professional experience by the time I got out of college to get a job as a woman, and I did and were, my mentors, one of them was named George Huff, one of them who was still alive. One of them was named Bud Myers, and so I went to work as a camper stringer for the Detroit Free Press. Michigan State was one of the two biggest universities in the state, and it was a source of news. And when I went to interview at the Washington Post in the spring of 1965 for a job, I had a huge professional string book from the Detroit Free Press. So I would say that things worked out for me, although they should not have. My real education came later on. SM (01:37:01): Yeah. Gets me right into my next question here. As a journalist in the (19)60s and (19)70s, do you feel the media only went after what was sensational and by that, I mean the drug culture, the long hair, the crows, the violence, the sex, protests? And there was little coverage of the majority of the young people that were not involved in any of this kind of activism? SJ (01:37:27): Well, I mentioned that this In the Age of American Unreason. And it is not that they went after what was, just what was sensational. That was as much a part of the (19)60s as anything else. It is that the media mostly is absolutely true was then and is now. The media was liberal reporters who were close to the age of the students who were protesting, shared their views. We did not know anything about the things we now know. I knew nothing about fundamentalist religion, and in fact, there was a whole other (19)60s. That whole other (19)60s is represented by George W. Bush and all of the Neoconservatives who first got into government under Ronald Reagan and really began running things under George W. Bush. They were there in the (19)60s too, and they were drawing quite different conclusions about what was going on around them than people like me who worked for the Washington Post were. I was not aware of what I now call the other (19)60s at all then. I have become aware of it in the last 20 years, but I never thought about it then. SM (01:38:39): Well, you brought it up. You are one of the few people that is really brought it up in any detail. When I interviewed Lee Edwards, the historian down in Washington, he said one of the things in all the books on the (19)60s is they do not ever talk about the conservative students and the young Americans for Freedom, for example. SJ (01:38:54): That is right. SM (01:38:55): And other groups like that. And of course the importance of the Goldwater election and the links to Ronald Reagan. Why was that? SJ (01:39:02): As I said, I think why it was is that the social class of the media was very different from the social class. There was first of all, there was no, in the early 1960s, there was no intellectual right wing. There was William Buckley in the National Review, and that was that, but there was not any, now there is a whole right-wing intellectual establishment as well. There was no right wing intellectual establishment then. There was Bill Buckley and his followers, and that is who it was. But there is something else too, I think just as important as that is the fact that the (19)60s, where are the years when the fundamentalists established their kindergarten through college network of education and began to train the generation that has had so much influence on public life for the last 30 years. We did not know those people. SM (01:39:57): Well, it is interesting because you brought bring up the Campus Crusade for Christ. SJ (01:40:00): They were just getting started then. SM (01:40:04): Being a college administrator, actually, I have worked with many of those students, but it is interesting about how they used the dress of the (19)60s, but they had a different point of view. SJ (01:40:15): Well, sure. SM (01:40:16): Yeah. So a lot of people do not even think about the Campus Crusade for Christ when they are talking about the (19)60s. SJ (01:40:21): But they were in the (19)60s as when the Campus Crusade for Christ. It actually was started in the (19)50s, but it did not really have any traction on anything but religious campuses until the late 1960s when they really got started. And one of the things that they were presenting themselves as was an alternative to the drug culture, you know, you can be cool. You can be hip, like the Jesus Electric Light and Power Company. You can be cool, you can be hip, but you do not have to share the views of all of those hippies about free love and all of that. And remember also by the late 1960s, there were a lot of kids who had been involved in the drug scene and so on, and were disillusioned with it. We were looking for something else. SM (01:41:07): Right. You talk about what they call the grateful and the ungrateful generation. Define those. Because a couple of people that are going to be reading these interviews may not have read your book. SJ (01:41:19): Well, the Grateful Generation was my parents' generation. I call them the Grateful Generation, not the greatest generation. SM (01:41:26): And they are not linked to the Grateful Dead. SJ (01:41:28): They are not linked. The Grateful Dead is part of the Ungrateful generation. But my parents' generation, the World War II generation was the Grateful generation. These were people who, my mother is a very still alive, is a very typical example. Brought up in a blue collar family. First member of her family to go to college. My grandfather, her father, they were blue collar people. My parents, the generation that emerged from the World War II as young adults. First of all, it was not the case of my father who was a little older, but a lot of them went to college on the GI Bill. They came from families where a generation earlier, they would not have been able to go to college. The Grateful generation, what Tom Brokaw calls the Greatest generation, they had a lot to be grateful for. One of the things they had to be grateful for is unlike people getting out of the service today, they got to buy houses with mortgages at 4 percent with VA loans. They went to school on the GI Bill. They came of age at a time when although there were ups and downs, America's economic prospects were good. All of those members of the Grateful Generation who went to school on the GI Bill enjoyed a standard of living, which their own parents could never have dreamed of. So they had good reason to be grateful. And the idea, it was always taken for granted that they would send their own children to college. There was not even a question then. And the thing is they expected their children who had so much more than they had had when they were growing up during the Depression, when they were coming of age during World War II. They expected their children to be thrilled with the middle class life they had achieved and to which they so aspired. And I call that the Ungrateful generation, then. Again, only some, but particularly among those who are college educated, turned around and said, we do not want your sticky, crappy houses. We do not like these universities. We do not like what they are teaching. We do not like your war. SM (01:43:54): Well, it is interesting. I interviewed Tom Hayden this past week as a follow-up interview I had. I interviewed him for almost two hours. And then of course about a year ago I interviewed Todd Gitlin, and they hate the term Boomer generation, both of them. SJ (01:44:05): No, they are not Boomers. SM (01:44:07): Yeah. Well, yeah, they were 42 and 40. SJ (01:44:10): Yeah. They are not boomers. SM (01:44:11): Todd is younger than Tom, but Tom Hayden, I would like your response to this. Because Tom said he did not like even Tom Brokaw's book Boom. Because he says, boom is an indication of something being shot out, showing violent and boom, basically Tom. And then the fact that it happened so fast that the Boomer generation was insignificant, it was just a short time period in history. So he was attacking the term boom. SJ (01:44:46): Well, I think if you, pardon of my saying, so he is, he is being a bit of anachronistic in his interpretation. The word baby boom was used beginning in the 1940s and it did not have anything to do with violence. All it meant is all of these people were having, all of these children. Did not have any. As all of these people were having all of these children. Did not have anything to do with the idea of the Boomer generation as it was taken over in the (19)60s. Tom Hayden, if he says that his mind is still in the (19)60s, which does not really surprise me. And it is for the Boomer generation being a short moment in time. Well, he does not know much about demography then. Now there really are two Boomer generations. 1957 was the highest birth rate in American history, is the exact midpoint of the Baby Boom generation. After that, the demography tapers off a little. But they are really two halves of the Boomer generation. One is people born between 1946 and 1957, the older Boomers, and people born between 1957 and 1964, the younger Boomers. There is a big difference between them. One of them being that it is only the older Boomers who came of age the late 1960s. The younger Boomers came of age in a much more conservative era, and in fact, they are more conservative politically in many ways than the older Boomers. Barack Obama is a younger Boomer. SM (01:46:15): He is two years older, yeah. SJ (01:46:16): He keeps trying to dis-identify himself from the Baby Boom generation, but he is a Boomer. And here is the one thing that the older Boomers and the younger Boomers have in common, and again, Hayman and Gitlin are not Boomers at all. They belong to that half generation born really between the middle of the depression and the end of the second world war. And they have some different... Although you are right, they were involved in fact, what people think of today as a lot of the activities of the Boomer generation. But what the younger Boomers and the older Boomers have in common is this. They both grew up in spite of the recessions of the 1970s, in times overall that were a rising economy in which they expected, and in fact did get access to a lot of things their parents never had. And this is true when you think about Barack Obama. In fact, the younger half of the Boomer generation that was Black benefited a lot more from these things than the older Black Baby Boomers, simply because of the achievements of the civil rights movement that were won when Barack Obama was a baby. So the younger Boomers and the older Boomers have in common, it did not cost them enough fortune to go to college. The real rise in college tuition did not happen until the mid 1980s, after even most of the younger Boomers were through college. The younger Boomers, Blacks and Hispanics, benefited from scholarships and things that did not exist for Blacks, for the older Boomers. And something else also, which is that the younger Boomers, again, the Obamas are perfect examples of this. They moved into a path that had been paved by the older Boomers, which was if you were 20 in the 1950s, you were expected within two years of graduating from college, if you were a girl to be married, if you were a guy you were not expected to be married until you were 30, if you were a guy to have a good job. And when the Boomers who came of age in the (19)60s came along, they pioneered a path in which it was okay not to get married right away. And it was okay to stay in school longer, to take some time out, find out what it was you really want to do. Now, when you look at Barack Obama's career in the 1970s, the time out he took from school before he went back to law school, these are things that, for instance, a young Black man from the older part of the Boomer generation, his parents would have gone nuts if he had said, "I want to wait to go to law school. I want to find myself." These possibilities, which are that your life is not set in stone when you are 22. That was a way of living that was pioneered by the older Boomers when Tom Hayden says, "This was just a moment in time." He is utterly wrong. SM (01:49:20): He was referring to that term Boom. And he was referring to Tom Brokaw's book. SJ (01:49:26): This is a book being written 40 years after all of this is taking place. And I do not know what Tom Brokaw means by Boom, but maybe Tom Hayden does not know the term Baby Boomer became current in the 1940s. It was not an invention of the 1960s. SM (01:49:39): I know that I interviewed Richie Havens. Richie said I was born in 41, but I am really a Boomer because of the spirit. SJ (01:49:47): Well, what happened was the Boomers of Tom Hayden's day and the pre Boomers is that things came along in the 1960s and they took advantage. You are absolutely right. A lot of what is thought of as the Boomer activities of the late (19)60s was really carried out by this half generation, who was both Todd Gitlin, whom I love, and Tom Hayden belong. SM (01:50:14): And thought of Richie. SJ (01:50:14): Yeah, and Richie too. SM (01:50:15): Yeah. One of the things that I am curious, you already made reference to it, before the real strong women's movement and feminism and so forth, and what was it like being a female reporter? You said you had two people who were really strong role models for you. Men who treated- SJ (01:50:32): Not role models, they gave me great advice. SM (01:50:34): They gave great advice. SJ (01:50:35): We were not role models at all. SM (01:50:36): But what was it like to be a female reporter in the early or mid (19)60s? SJ (01:50:42): Well, I applied for a job at two places, the Detroit Free Press and the Washington Post. Fortunately, the Detroit Free Press did not hire me, so I was hired by the Post, which was great. The Free Press refused to hire me for anything but the society section, this is 1964, although I had been covering regular stories for them for years because they said a woman could not be out at night if there were a story that came up at night. The Post was a different kettle of fish. They hired me as a regular reporter, but I was only the second reporter, female reporter, who did not work in what was then called the society section. However, I think I would have encountered a lot more trouble with the New York Times then. But at the Washington Post, because the Post was then expanding, it had a lot of really young reporters on it. It was not a disadvantage to be a woman in the same way as it would have been at the New York Times in the early 1960s. SM (01:51:45): I have a couple... You have a quote in your book, this book, "This increasing alliterate of America, not only the enjoyment in reading, but critical thinking is at risk." And the way I really going to ask this question is, is this a direct link to the (19)60s? Because with a lot of criticism of today's young people today is they are smart. They do not know their history. SJ (01:52:14): Blaming it on the (19)60s. SM (01:52:25): [inaudible] Between this quote and the (19)60s. SJ (01:52:26): Yes and no. Yes and no. In the 1960s, books were still really important to all of us. I mean, I can remember when Portnoy's Complaint was published in 1969. I mean, can remember I had heard about this book. I can remember just rushing to the bookstore, just dying to read this book. I do not think anybody rushes to a bookstore dying to read a book at all today. I really think more than the (19)60s, although there is a connection with the (19)60s which I will circle back to, but I really feel that the older Boomers belong more to the previous generation in terms of their attitudes toward reading. The younger Boomers belong more to the next generation. Because there was not any internet, there were not any computers before the 1980s. So that we grew up in a society in which, if you read, books were important. As far as not knowing history goes, this has gotten worse every year. It did not start in the (19)60s. There were actually some polls for the 1930s, which show how little history Americans do in the 1930s too. But I do think that what happened in the 1960s, I mean, nobody could have imagined the internet then, nobody did. But there were certainly a lot more forms of entertainment began to intrude on time that had once been devoted to reading. Look, the transistor radio, the small portable transistor radio, I think played an important role in this. For the first time, although it was nothing right now is nothing like an iPod. It was nothing like computer access 24/7, but for the first time, you could bring your music with you everywhere. But I think it was the beginning of a change, which was a descending curve that was fairly soft in the (19)60s. I do not think it really takes a sharp downward turn until the 1980s. This is going to be a problem, I think. SM (01:54:36): We can move to... SJ (01:54:37): No, there are not any tables. Because this guy is talking awful loudly. All right, well, they will not stay there. SM (01:54:47): You were in the middle of [inaudible]. SJ (01:55:01): No, that is the way it is. Okay. There is one aspect of the (19)60s that I think does have something to do, and it was really the late (19)60s, early (19)70s. I think in general, student demands are blamed, in general, by conservatives for watering down of the university curriculum. Now, it is true that students were demanding a lot of bullshit things in the late 1960s, early (19)70s. And I do not believe that their criticisms of the curriculum were justified at all. Their criticisms the way universities were run was. But I think what happened in the (19)60s that was bad and was entirely a fault of the faculty at that time is for some reason they were actually scared of these student demands. And you had two kinds of people. You had had younger faculty members, many of whom threw in their lot with the students who wanted to teach women's studies and so on. And you had older faculty members, people who wanted to teach the way they always had, the dead white European male curriculum. And they both got their way, and I think it was a very evil and stupid compromise. But what they did was they shut it off. Instead of developing a great African American studies curriculum, which was taught to every student of American history, they shunted it off into minority studies department. Instead of including women writers in every English class and making women's studies part of the whole, they shut it off into women's studies department. Now this pleased everybody on campuses and I was an education reporter for the Washing Post at the time this was happening. It pleased the old guys because they could continue to teach their white studies, their white male studies exactly the way they always taught them, and it pleased the new people because it meant more jobs and more tenure. Everybody got what they wanted. It was bad for education in general. The kind of vulcanization of things that every kid ought to be learning started in the late 1960s, and it was not the fault of the students was the fault of the faculty who were supposed to be the grownups that did not act like it. SM (01:57:12): You mentioned in the book, too, that tenure was something very important in the (19)50s on college campuses and then in the (19)60s, mid (19)60s in particular. So maybe around the mid (19)70s tenure was not that important. It was basically they were involved in the reacting to the social movements that were- SJ (01:57:29): That is not what I said. I did not say anything about tenure at all, but in fact, the way things worked out, the way things worked out, everybody got tenure. People who were involved in the social movements of the (19)60s are the tenured professors who will not leave because they cannot retire on college campuses today. Tenure did not have anything to do with whether you were fighting the establishment then at all. Those people got tenure too. Those women's studies professors got tenure, the African-American studies. And there are campuses with African- American studies departments, Harvard is one of them, where in fact, lots of kids of all races go. But what happened in most campuses was they became an enclave for minority students and meant that meant the minority students were not learning everything they should learn, and the white students sure as hell were not learning everything they should learn. But as for tenure, that is my whole point. Everybody got it. That is why everybody was happy with what happened. SM (01:58:26): You do a great job [inaudible] of the criticisms of the neocons towards anybody that was involved in any kind of protest or activism of that particular time. You bring up Irving Crystal and Todd Hortz. SJ (01:58:47): Todd Hortz. Well, they are ancient. SM (01:58:48): And commentary, but they were the kind of old left and their attitude toward the (19)60s. How do you react to, because the current neocons, when Newt Gingrich came the power in 1994 when the Republican came in, he made some strong commentaries. SJ (01:59:01): Remember the Newtster was coming of age of the (19)60s. He was part of that other (19)60s. SM (01:59:02): Yeah. Yeah. He was there and then he had... You had the Bill Crystals of the world who were coming on, and then even today on Fox, you see a lot of the criticisms of the (19)60s. There is a lot of the reasons why we are having the problems in our society today, just looking back. SJ (01:59:33): Well, by the way, those people on Fox do not know any more about the (19)60s than most of American knows about ancient Greek or Latin. I mean, they do not know anything about it. There is this image of the (19)60s frozen in time. I think that is probably really what Tom Hayden was objecting to. The idea that people who were protesting things in the (19)60s were just free lovers and dopers, and that was it, and that is all there was to the (19)60s. People who wanted to do anything that they wanted to do. SM (02:00:01): One of the things, the generation gap, it was very obvious. I remember on Life Magazine, they had the front cover with that young man, and he had his glasses on and one side of the glasses his father was pointing at him and he was pointing back at his job. So the generation gap between parents and their kids was very obvious at that particular time. But also in that book, the Wounded Generation, Jim Webb made a commentary at the symposium back in 1980s. But the real generation gap was not between parents. The generation gap is those who served in Vietnam, and when they were called to serve their nation, they went and those who did not. SJ (02:00:49): So that was not a generation gap, that is a culture gap. SM (02:00:49): He called it... And actually went even further by saying that oftentimes the (19)60s generation is supposed to be the Peace Corps generation, the Vista, the service. They took the words of Kennedy and they used it, whether it be go into service or to go into the Peace Corps. He says they are not a service generation, so they incur. A lot of them refused to serve. SJ (02:01:04): Jim Webb, by the way, is not a Baby Boomer, I believe. SM (02:01:07): I do not know. I think he is about 44. SJ (02:01:11): Well, he is very young, but I would say that that is true. That in general, all of the children in the (19)60s were not the service generation. But if you go back to Vietnam and to say that that people who did not serve were just motivated by selfishness. That is not just wrong. It is true. But they did not want to get shot at, but they did not want to get shot at for this particular thing. I do not know whether Jim Webb thinks the Vietnam War was worthwhile or not. I do not to this day think the Vietnam War was worthwhile. What did we get out of it except all of those dead. And Vietnam is now what it was always going to be a communist country, far from our sphere of influence. And the countries we are fighting in now, Iraq and Afghanistan are going to be Muslim countries far from our sphere of influence when all of this is over. But I think as somebody who remembers of Vietnam War, I think not just somebody who has heard about it, which is what all Jim Webb has, he has heard about it. He does not remember the Vietnam War. He knows only what he has been told at the military academy about the Vietnam War. I like Jim Webb. SM (02:02:25): Oh, he served in Vietnam. SJ (02:02:31): He served in Vietnam? SM (02:02:32): Yes, he did. SJ (02:02:32): So he is not in his 40s then. SM (02:02:32): Well, he served in Vietnam. SJ (02:02:32): He did? SM (02:02:32): Yes. SJ (02:02:32): Are you sure? SM (02:02:35): Yes. And of course, his son is serving in Iraq on two tours. SJ (02:02:40): Well, if Jim Webb thinks the Vietnam War was worthwhile, I do not agree with him. And if he thinks that in order to be of the service generation you had to serve in Vietnam, I do not agree with him. I mean, you could call young Nazis members of the service generation too. They served the Nazis, and by that, I assure you, I do not mean that people who served in Vietnam were Nazis. I mean, because you do not choose a particular kind of way to serve. But I will tell you this, but I think far worse than anything that happened in terms of culture division in Vietnam is what is happening today. I think that you have an all-volunteer army, which of course was a direct result of the fact, but so many people did not want to serve and use education and privilege to get out of the draft. I think the all-volunteer army is far worse. I think the reason that even now, I do not think America is paying any attention to these wars, to how many people are being killed, and I think there is direct reason they are not paying any attention to it is that their sons and daughters do not have to go if they do not want to. My parents were moderate Republicans who opposed the Vietnam War. My father was a veteran. They did not think the Vietnam War was worth fighting. They opposed it because they were terrified that their son was going to get drafted, my brother. He did not, but I do not think they would have any position if they were the same kind of people today on the Iraq war. They would not have to worry about my brother being drafted. My father saw absolutely no analogy between Vietnam and World War II, and he was not a liberal. SM (02:04:30): When you look at the whole Jane Fonda situation, and I have interviewed a lot- SJ (02:04:39): Jane is another one of those iconographic (19)60s people. SM (02:04:40): You saw her when she was at the New School this past year, I think it was in February, talking about her whole career. It was unbelievable. It was a tremendous hour and a half program there. But when you look at, oftentimes entertainers themselves are being criticized today, you are just being entertainers. SJ (02:04:59): That is ridiculous. SM (02:05:00): And when you go back to the (19)60s, you can always remember John Wayne, Martha Ray, Bob Hope, which would be gung-ho for the troops. But you had the Donald Sutherland, Jane Fonda who were against. SJ (02:05:16): Here is no reason why entertainers should not use their celebrity anyway that they want. And by the way, I would like, while I am thinking of it, this is not a question you are asking, but you know were asking about Boomers and boom and all of that. I do not know about boom, but of course now the Boomers... I have a new book coming out in February. It is called Never Say Die, the Myth and the Marketing of the New Old Age. And here is another thing, and here is why Tom Hayden is very wrong, that this was just a moment in time. Oldest Boomers turned 65 next year in 2011. The oldest Boomers turned 65, by 2030, unless there is some kind of a catastrophe, which of course there always could be, there are going to be 8.5 million Americans over the age of 85, most of them Boomers. Now, and this is related to the age of American unreason because there is also one thing older and younger Boomers have in common, a kind of forever young state of mind, whether they are or not. This is hitting the Boomers hard now and there is now, this is what my next book is about. There is now the same kind of propaganda about the new old age, but there was in the about Boomers being completely different from their parents in that there is a mindset that says, "If only we live right, if only we worked hard enough, the phrase defying old age comes up all the time." It is a Boomer mindset, a mindset in which, and it is also very much a mindset of the (19)70s after the (19)60s, the retreat into the personal growth kind of thing. But if you just work hard enough, if you live right- SM (02:07:06): [inaudible] exercise. SJ (02:07:08): ...your old age is not going to be... At 90, I went to this panel two years ago, three years ago, called is 90 the new (19)50s. Gene was in the audience, by the way. Well, I could answer you whether 90 is the new 50. It is not, but the Boomers are going to be affecting ideas about old age thus far in a very unrealistic sort of way for quite a while. But as far as a lot of Boomers are concerned, the only people who get Alzheimer's disease are people who did not exercise enough and who ate too many carbs and got too fat. If you live to be more than 85, you have a 50 percent chance of getting Alzheimer's disease. It is evidence, facts cannot be denied. And that is something that a certain fantasy part of the Boomer generation has always tried to do. SM (02:08:00): Yes, exactly. SJ (02:08:00): The Boomer attitude toward old age now is exactly like the attitude of aging Boomer women who wanted to have natural childbirth, which is they believed that if they only wanted it, childbirth would not hurt. SM (02:08:14): Well, I know that Boomers they do not want to have senior citizen centers. SJ (02:08:20): No-no. SM (02:08:21): They want to get rid of that word senior citizens. SJ (02:08:25): I used the word old in my new book. The word old is the word Boomers hate. Hello. I am just 65. How many 130-year-old do you see walking around? I am not middle-aged. They are not middle-aged. By the 2030, none of us are going to be anywhere near middle-aged. We are going to be old. SM (02:08:48): It is an interesting, you go to any park or any place, people are running, walking, exercising, biking. Doctors will say, that will extend your lifespan. SJ (02:08:58): No, they do not. They say it is good for you now. No good doctor says it. It is good for you in a million different ways. Whether it will extend your life, your healthy lifespan is completely unknown. I know, I know. The AARP, which is now run by Boomers, of course, right? The AARP for which I written many times, and God bless them, I love them. The AARP, the attitude about the new old age is this, it is okay to be old as long as you pretend you are not. So as the AARP concentrates on the 95-year-old sky diver, the 90-year-old who are having great sex, of course there cannot be very many of them among women because most women who are 90 years old do not have partners. And if you noticed ads for Viagra, which was actually intended either for people who have things like diabetes or for people over 65, 70, the people in ads for Viagra are all in their 40s. They do not want to present the real age at which Viagra is really aimed. What they want to say in these commercials is if you take Viagra, it would be just like it was 20, 30 years ago. SM (02:10:12): You hit some- SJ (02:10:14): But this is related to the Boomer generation because the Boomers are getting old. SM (02:10:19): Yeah. And I think when they were younger, they felt... This is one thing too. When I was in school, there was this feeling that we were going to change the world. We were going to end war, bring peace, end all the racism, sexism and homophobia, clean up the environment. There was the supposed attitude of not 100 percent of the people, but the activists had, but they were going to make a difference in the world. SJ (02:10:46): And we did make a difference in a lot of ways. Look, would you rather be Black in America today or would you rather have been Black before the Civil Rights movement? Would you rather be a woman in America today, or would you rather be a woman from Mad Men? These changes in women's lives, and I am not discounting for a minute that what we are seeing now is ugly, and the idea that this was kind of eradicated either then or now is ridiculous, and anybody with a brain in their head knows it. But fact is the progress that is made in opportunities for minorities, the progress that was made in opportunities for women is absolutely undeniable. It was not better to be African American or Hispanic or female in 1960 than it is today. It is much better to be all of those things today. SM (02:11:33): You talked a lot about- How we doing time wise? SJ (02:11:47): Well, we have been at it for about- SM (02:11:47): 45 minutes? SJ (02:11:48): Oh, more than that. We can go on. I am comfortable here and get this done maybe. SM (02:11:52): Yeah [inaudible] I will come back to it. When you look at the period that Boomers have been alive, which is 1946... Oh, another question I was going to ask. Many people have said to me during my interviews, when you look at Bill Clinton, and when you look at George's Bush number two, you can tell they are Boomers. Just a general comment. You can tell they are Boomers. What do you think they are saying when they say that? SJ (02:12:24): I have no idea. I mean, they both behave like Boomers politically in a sense. I do not know what they mean by that. If you look at them, you can tell what they are Boomers. But I can tell if they are Boomers because I know they are the age they are. They have to be Boomers. I actually do not have any... I cannot venture a comment on that because I do not know what they mean. If they mean a style of politics, which is a little less buttoned up. Maybe that is what they mean. I do not know what they mean by, if you look at Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, you can tell they are Boomers. Do they both smoke pot? Yeah, when they were young. I do not know what that says. SM (02:13:06): I think some were referring to George Bush as well, my way or the highway kind of mentality, but some of the activists had in the (19)60s and Bill Clinton with his Monica Lewinsky. SJ (02:13:20): Well, yeah, as we know, politicians who are not Boomers never have extramarital sex. But this is ridiculous. There is this tendency on the part of the right to attribute everything they do not like that they imagine to be true about the Boomer generation to have been the Boomer generation. How can anybody make this ridiculous statement about Monica Lewinsky being an example of a typical Boomer mindset? I mean, exactly what generation of politicians has not had sex scandals? The only difference was in the past is that the public did not know about it because the press did not write about it. SM (02:13:58): Look at that period, 1946 to 1960, how did that shape the very, very young Boomers with respect to the issue of fear? We already talked about McCarthyism, which was on television in the early (19)50s, so the front running Boomers would have seen that- SJ (02:14:18): It affected... I remember the air raid drills when we would crouch under the desk, which was supposed to protect us from radiation. I do not know a single person my age or who is a sentient being in the early (19)50s who does not remember the fear of the bomb. Exactly how much that shaped us, I do not know. The nature of being young is not to be fearful. I think I can remember the air raid drills and thinking it was silly, but I do not come from a typical family. My family, while they were not liberal or left at all, but they were sort of completely indifferent to that sort of sort of thing. SM (02:15:03): I think that across the board, whether it is that- SJ (02:15:06): I think a lot of it would have depended on what kind of a family you came from. SM (02:15:12): The three adjectives that I lean on here in describing the early light Boomers as a whole is- SJ (02:15:21): Fear? SM (02:15:22): And fear being what you talk about the bomb and growing up with a cold war, and obviously that the Communist, looking for Communists everywhere. Naive. Naive, hey, because I believe that (19)50s television was all about that, and you really had to read between the lines. And being quiet. SJ (02:15:40): Quiet? SM (02:15:40): Being quiet. I do not think Boomers [inaudible] thought Boomers really never started to do things. I mean, being outspoken, until the (19)60s. SJ (02:15:48): Not, well, first of all, Boomers in the (19)50s were little kids. SM (02:15:48): They were in junior high school, though. SJ (02:15:59): We do not tend to take down the utterances of little kids. But this I think you are very wrong about. I think you are conflating something, the Silent Generation, which was people who came of age in the (19)50s with the Boomers. I think on the contrary, child rearing was much more permissive in the 1950s. I do not think people around for good as well as for bad to say that Dr. Spock's ideas about child rearing, which while in some ways very traditional, were much freer than the kind of child rearing people of my parents' generation were brought up with. I think in fact, although Boomers, every little word was not taken as seriously as kids are today. I think that Boomers grew up in a much freer, more outspoken atmosphere then. And said things that would not have been allowed for their parents to say when they were children. But I do not think the (19)60s did not come out of nowhere. They did not come out of nowhere. It is not like a switch was turned on. And I mean, you have got to remember that the election of John F. Kennedy, the oldest Boomers were 14 when John F. Kennedy was elected. In some ways, that was still the (19)50s, but in some ways too, that also felt like the dawn of a new day. I would say quite the opposite. Yes, there was the bomb and all of that. Did I really think anybody was going to drop a bomb on me when I was... I think in fact, the Boomers were brought up with a great deal more security and intelligence than their parents were. I would say it was quite the opposite of fear. Life was pretty nice for a child in the 1950s if you came from a middle class family. And I do stress that if you came from a middle class family. Life growing up in the 1950s, if you grew up in a ghetto or if you were a poor white or Black person growing up in the south, Bill Clinton's early life was very different from mine. But what was different by the time he got into college in the (19)60s is there were scholarships for bright young boy. Bill Clinton, he had been born in generation earlier, he would have been no one. He would have been white trash because there would not have been any way for a boy like that to go to college. SM (02:18:15): You cannot forget about Native Americans as well during the 1950s on the reservations. SJ (02:18:21): They were not on the radar at all. But the life of the poor and the middle class in the (19)50s was very different. It was certainly as different as it is today, and you just cannot... I mean, that is one of the reasons why a lot of the anger today was that a lot of the other (19)60s were not just the rich people like the Bushes. It was also working class people. And there are people who did not make it out of the working class in the 1950s, the 1960s. My family made it out of the working class in the 1950s. And their children, there was never any thought that we were going to be part of that blue-collar class, which was only a half generation away in our family, but a lot of Americans did not. SM (02:19:07): This afternoon I will be speaking to Marvin Serff. He is going to talk about growing up African American in Detroit in the (19)60s. SJ (02:19:07): How old is he? SM (02:19:07): Oh, he is like same age as Alan Wolf. He has got to be probably mid (19)60s. SJ (02:19:07): Yeah, he is the same age as Alan then. SM (02:19:22): Yeah. But I think he does not live in America anymore. He lives in Mexico. He just happens to be visiting friends here. SJ (02:19:28): Well, that will be a very interesting interview because Detroit in the mid (19)60s was changing rapidly and the mid (19)60s are the period when the whites just basically abandoned Detroit and Detroit was just abandoned. That should be a very interesting- SM (02:19:48): Another person wrote a book on the labor unions in Detroit at that time, and how they took on the Black Power and the Black Panther mentality in the labor room. In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? And what was the watershed moment? SJ (02:19:57): Actually, I think the (19)60s really began- Actually, I think the (19)60s really began around 1963 and not just for the Kennedy assassination. I think one of the things that you definitely felt when you were a teenager in the early 1960s, there is a big cultural change that started to happen. Although the early (19)60s, Mad Men is not wrong about this, in some ways they were more like the 1950s than they were the later part of the (19)60s. But in some ways, they were not. But one thing that happens in the early (19)60s is that, first of all, there begins to be strong concern in mainstream America about peace. You get movies like On the Beach, which was a big hit movie, movies of the kind that would have been considered commie only five years before. But, yeah, you have 1964. You have two movies, Dr. Strangelove, which is an iconic movie, and Failsafe. The Failsafe movie came out just before that. What they both were about were movies suggesting that war might happen by accident, not by the evil of communism, and we all ought to be thinking about that. There is a very big change that starts in those early years of the (19)60s, not exactly at 1960, but I would say that the minute John Kennedy began talking about nuclear disarmament, which coincided with this cultural moment when movies questioning whether war necessarily arose from the total evil of the enemy, I think that is where the (19)60s really begin. They end with the end of the Vietnam War, and we have a lot of things... I consider the Women's Movement, which is really early (19)70s really a (19)60s phenomenon. I think of it as... although the Women's Movement really does not begin to... they sure empty the garbage a lot, which is good. I think the (19)60s really end with the end of the Vietnam War and kind of the beginning of the consolidation of what the Women's Movement was gaining. The high-water mark of women's movement is really the late (19)70s, not the (19)60s. SM (02:22:15): What was the watershed moment? Was there a watershed moment? One particular moment that stands out? SJ (02:22:15): It was to when the (19)60s ended? SM (02:22:15): No, just the whole period of the (19)60s. SJ (02:22:15): Well, to me the watershed moment was of course, I mean you got the original about this, it was 1968. It was not when the (19)60s ended, but the assassinations of Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy within months of each other, it certainly changed my frame of mind about what was possible. This is followed right away by the election of Richard Nixon. And the election of Richard Nixon, it was not just old people who voted for Richard Nixon. The (19)60s were not going to turn out to be a turning point in history toward what I would have said were my values. This becomes pretty obvious by the end of 1968. SM (02:23:20): You remember the exact moment you heard that John Kennedy was killed? Do you remember? SJ (02:23:20): I sure do. SM (02:23:27): Most people do. Where were you when you heard? SJ (02:23:32): I was buying a dress in a shop in East Lansing, Michigan. What I remember more and what meant more to me is I also remember where I was when Bobby Kennedy was killed, and when Martin Luther King was killed. When Martin Luther King was killed, I was at home in my house on Capitol Hill, my apartment on Capitol Hill, and I just immediately jumped in a cab and went straight to the Washington Post, because I knew that the city was going to go up in flames, which it did. I was a reporter for the Post. When Robert Kennedy was killed, I was in Frankfurt airport changing planes for Kenya where I was going to meet my fiancé. Everybody in Frankfurt airport was crying, and that is when I learned, and I said to myself, "This is the end of my hope." It was not, of course, but it felt like it. SM (02:24:33): As a person who has written a lot of great books and have analyzed America from different angles, when you look at the assassinations of Kennedy, King and Kennedy again, what does that say about America? That, if you speak up too much, you are going to be in or what does it say? SJ (02:24:53): What it says to me, and believe you me, I have been thinking about it a lot this week. What it said to me is that there is a lot of free-floating anger and rage in our culture. I do not think it had anything to do with speaking up per se, but when you do become a lightning rod for people who feel threatened, there is no shortage of the true combination of craziness and evil that takes a gun out and shoots. And I have been thinking about that a lot. It feels to me, I am not saying it is, but what is going on right now feels to me very much like things felt to me in the late 1960s only worse because- SM (02:25:46): Hold that thought. I want to turn my tape here. Yeah, you are bringing up some very interesting- SJ (02:26:01): So one thing my throat is getting sore. SM (02:26:03): Yep. Okay. SJ (02:26:07): Well, it feels to me in 2010 as we approached this anniversary of the terrorist attack, it feels to me, although it is not the same class of characters, but I have the same really uneasy feeling I had in 1968, which is I have this feeling that anything could happen, that there is a lot of unfocused rage out there added to even more ignorance that existed in 1968 because I do believe people know-know us. I do believe that the 24 hour news cycle, the web and so on, have made us stupider not smarter. They have given us more information, but I believe in terms of logical thinking, in terms of the ability to remember anything that happened before 10 minutes ago, I think we have a worse and more stupid culture than we did in 1968. But I feel the same kind of anger around me. I am not saying I am right, I am saying it feels kind of the same to me now, which is bad, but it feels the same to a lot of people who live through that time. Right now, I have this feeling that I do not know where the ground quite is beneath me, what is going to happen next. And some crack pot leader of a congregation of 50 people in Gainesville, Florida get the call from the Secretary of Defense begging him not to burn the Koran. It makes me feel like almost anything could happen. SM (02:27:44): And also recently with the fact- SJ (02:27:48): I hope this is a feeling and not a fact. SM (02:27:50): Well, I have a feeling because I have been studying lately the football player that was killed by friendly fire. SJ (02:27:57): Pat Tillman. SM (02:27:57): Pat Tillman. Unbelievable. And the latest is that he was murdered because he was going to come back to the United States and be an anti-war protestor that he and his brother and some of his close associates had seen enough. He was going to finish his time, but he was going to come back, and there was a worry that he would come back and that would be terrible to have the number one guy [inaudible] else about. SJ (02:28:28): Well, what I would say about this is that this idea is around is part of what makes it feel like 1968. This is probably not true, probably it is just the army covered its ass as it always tries to do after friendly fire. But these conspiracy theories are all out there, and we see more of them on the right than on the left at the moment, but the existence of conspiracy theories in which a lot of people believe, not saying whether they are true or not, but it is a sign that there is a lot of dangerous anger out there. SM (02:29:05): I agree. And of course we all worried about President Obama when he came into power and somebody wanted to knock him off. SJ (02:29:13): Well, I am still worried about that. SM (02:29:16): Who won the battles in the (19)60s? Who won the battle? SJ (02:29:21): Which battle are you talking about? SM (02:29:22): Basically the liberals versus conservatives. Who really won? It was very obvious- SJ (02:29:31): The left won the culture war. The political war was a draw as we see very well. If the left had won the political war, we would not have the kind of problems that we have today. Richard Nixon would never have been elected President. Ronald Reagan would never have been elected president. Loads of baby boomers voted for Ronald Reagan. SM (02:29:50): Yep, I know. SJ (02:29:52): So the left definitely did not win the political war, but I said the left won the culture war. It did in the sense that a lot of the lifestyle changes of the (19)60s were adopted on the right as well as the left. SM (02:30:05): Well, Nixon always used the term silent majority and there were a lot of young people that were in that silent majority as well. SJ (02:30:14): That is right. SM (02:30:16): One of the criticisms of the (19)60s generation were the boomers, or the activists is they always say that in the generation of 78 million, only about 15 percent were ever involved in any kind of activism. Even some of the strongest activists I have talked to have said, "15? It was more like five." SJ (02:30:33): I would agree with them, but that alone is not a measure because there are a lot of ideas which were shared by people who were not activists. Again, in a way I am atypical, but everybody says this. When I was 24 years old, I got married to the Moscow correspondent of the Washington Post and moved to Moscow with him for two and a half years where I wrote my first book and did not go back to newspaper writing because I wanted to write books and magazine articles. But I was very affected by my time in Russia in this, but many of the cultural concerns of my contemporaries seemed very trivial to me when I came back. It also affected me very much apropos of some of the bad educational things that happened in the (19)60s. I was in Russia, a country where there was no such thing as popular entertainment that was bearable. If you wanted to do anything that was fun in Russia, it was listening to classical music, it was reading classics because those were the only kind of good books that were available. And so that in a way, in Russia, I got the education that I missed when I was in college because there was no such thing as a popular entertainment culture there. There was anything but anything but controlled by the party. So in a way, in Russia, I had to read poetry and classics with an intensity that I never read before and the only kind of music I could hear was good music. I just laughed. I just laugh when I see this silly book about Bob Dylan that Sean Wilentz, who was another child of the (19)60s, just published. The idea of Bob Dylan is a great artist to me is ridiculous and I know why it is ridiculous to me. Because when everybody else was listening to the Stones and Bob Dylan, I know who genius poets were. They were Osip Mandelstam and Joseph Brodsky and Boris Pasternak. Bob Dylan is not a genius of a poet, and it is an example of low educational standards of a lot of my generation that this guy is taken seriously as anything but a singer of his generation, which in that respect, what he was perfectly good. SM (02:32:49): What do you think of Rod McKuen? SJ (02:32:51): Well, Rod McKuen was the worst. SM (02:32:54): How about the beat writers? SJ (02:32:55): But Rod McKuen? Well, the beat writers fall a whole different category. They were earlier and after something else. Al Ginsberg is a great poet. Rod McKuen is not. Rod McKuen was liked by both the left and the right, by the way. You have a lot of pop culture of the (19)60s. That is why I say the left in general was stupid, won the culture war in the 1960s. 1960s is when you begin to see a lot of decline and a lot of things that I valued. Ages 24 to 26 I was in Russia. These are very formative years. I was not listening to the Stones or Bob Dylan. There was a little Pat and Oscar. SM (02:33:47): What do you consider to be the major failures of the movement? The movement or the movement? SJ (02:34:01): I do not think the civil rights movement failed in any way except in the sense that undermining something as potent as racial discrimination and racial stereotypes in a country that was founded upon slavery is not the work of 10 years or 20 years or as we see now. To paraphrase John Kennedy, even in our lifetime on this earth, I do not think the civil rights movement was a failure at all. I think it was a complete success, but they failed to persuade probably 25 percent of people in this country now as then that they were right is not a failure. They persuaded a lot of people that they were right. We got through the civil rights movement. You heard about anybody being lynched lately? No, I do not think the civil rights movement was a failure in any way. The anti-war movement was clearly a failure. It failed to end the war. It was not movement's fault; the entrenched nature of what Eisenhower called the military-industrial complex is too much for anybody burning their draft cards and American flags on college campuses. Clearly, the anti-war movement in terms of changing a kind of reflexive respect for the military was a failure. I would say that one of the greatest disappointments of my adult lifetime is, as far as I can see, to me, the war in Afghanistan resembles the futility of the war in Vietnam much more than any other. But we did not learn anything from our experience in Vietnam. We did not learn much about the limits of American power in a totally different culture, very, very far from home. And by the way, when you think about that war now, when you think about the Viet Cong and the Taliban, you understand the Viet Cong were practically kissing cousins in relation to us compared to the values of somebody like the Taliban. SM (02:36:12): Yes. SJ (02:36:12): As we now see, we are a country with all sorts of commercial relations with Vietnam. Vietnam is part of the world in which we live, with parts of the Muslim world controlled by people like the Taliban are not. So I would say that the anti-war movement was absolutely a failure both in the short term, in that the war went on for years until 1975, and the long term in terms of making people more skeptical about this kind of careless exercise of American power. The women's movement was a success in that it opened up a lot more educational and economic opportunities to women. I would not say that the women's movement was a failure. People say things are still bad for women who want to raise a family and have a career. That is true, but I do not exactly see that as a failure any more than I see the fact that that Americans who hate Barack Obama will not admit that race has anything to do with it today. I do not see that as a failure of the civil rights movement any more than I see the fact that it is still tough to have a family and a career as a woman. I see those as entrench structural problems that the civil rights movement and women's movement made a good start on, that nobody could have expected would be solved even by now. SM (02:37:47): You do not have to go into any extensive detail, but then you have got the Native American movement which many people thought was only a four-year movement with AIM starting at Alcatraz and ending at Wounded Knee. The Native American movement had been going on for a long time. Then of course you had the Chicano movement, the farm workers and of course the environmental movement and the gay and lesbian movement, so they are all- SJ (02:38:08): Well, the gay lesbian movement, it starts where the (19)60s end really. I mean, I am in the gay rights movement. The enormous change that has taken place that started at Stonewall. All you need to do is look at the different attitudes of young people and older people, and it is a difference between people who are not old enough to be boomers and boomers too. Boomers have far more negative attitudes about gay than the next generation down does. Our parents have problem negative attitudes about gay than the boomers did. These things are take a long time. I do not think that that the gay rights movement has failed because a lot of people still hate gays. I think that the one thing that has not changed in American society is the vast influence of a very retrograde form of religion, which is unique to the United States, which is something that progressives in every generation, beginning with the ideas of 18th century, have thought, "We are going to be gone by the next generation." That has the influence of fundamentalist religion. I do not mean evangelical religion, I mean fundamentalist religion. The kind of religion that takes seriously and believes that lives should be ordered by the writings in sacred books. The Taliban are fundamentalist Muslims, the fundamentalist Christians are fundamentalist Christians. The Jews out living in their little Hasidic shtetls in Brooklyn are fundamentalist Jews. They believe that all of this is to be taken literally. They are a real threat in American society, the biggest threat of the Christians simply because there are more fundamentalist Christians than there are fundamentalist anything else in America. It is unique. It is a failure. It is a failure. I will not go into a lot of this. I read free thinkers if you want to, but we are the only country in the developed world in which a third of our citizens do not accept that evolution is not a scientific reality. SM (02:40:19): You talk about the anti-intellectual atmosphere that came out of the (19)60s then, but you did talk about how that during John Kennedy's three years, there was a hope there that there was an intellectual development taking place because of the people that he hired, the thinkers, the idea people, and of course dealing with the sciences and Sputnik and all the others- SJ (02:40:42): Well, you know they- SM (02:40:42): Do you see the comparison? Mario Savio in 1964 said that the- SJ (02:40:47): I still have a Savio for state senate bumper sticker! SM (02:40:52): Well, I like the guy. He was right on target and he said that the fact is that the university's about ideas. It is not about being the corporate takeover of everything, and we are back to the corporate takeover of everything right now. SJ (02:41:07): We are back. We are at a worst place in relation to that than we ever were then. We did not know what a real corporate takeover of everything was then. We only thought we did. SM (02:41:23): Clark Kerr talked about the knowledge factory, but what did the universities learn from the (19)60s that make them better prepared to work with the student activists? SJ (02:41:31): They are not- SM (02:41:33): In particular, today. SJ (02:41:37): First of all, there are not any student activists today. I mean, there are few, but the universities did not learn anything from the (19)60s as far as I can see. What the universities learned from the (19)60s was how to dumb down their standards enough to please stupid students. There were among the activists, as among everybody else, there were highly brilliant activists. I think Mario Savio was one of them, by the way. I had the greatest respect for him. Todd Gitlin too. There were student activist- SM (02:42:02): Tom Hayden was smart, too. SJ (02:42:03): There were two activists. Well, he got less smart as he got older. There were student activists who were smart and there were student activists who were dumb. The university never had any ability to distinguish between those two groups at all. The reason they did what they did was, they did not want any shortage of their gravy train. I do not know who it was that told you 15 percent was too high an estimate, but they were right. SM (02:42:30): Several people. SJ (02:42:31): But somehow the universities actually thought that parents were going to stop sending their kids to college if they did not shut up these activists on campus, which was never going to happen. So they got the worst of our possible worlds. When instead of truly reforming the curriculum in a good way, that would have added the knowledge that people need about every part of history to the general curriculum. They shunted it off into ghetto studies, and by ghetto, I mean ghetto women's studies, ghetto queer studies, which is ridiculous too. Whatever is necessary to know about any minority is necessary for everyone to know. It is not necessary only for the minority or the interest in you to know. SM (02:43:16): After the Kennedy assassination, I think you said that things changed in the universities, that the Sputnik and the science and math and the importance of those things. But then when he died, something happened within the universities. Clark Kerr talked about the knowledge factory. It is like the IBM mentality. SJ (02:43:38): The emphasis on science did not change at all. That is when the money was always there for science. But what changed the late 1960s and largely as a result of faculty yielding to this pressure of this 5 percent or whatever it was, was that people were not required to learn a common core of knowledge. By the way, I think people like Diane Ravitch are absolutely right about that, and Arthur Schlesinger Jr., who of course came from the opposite political thing. I think that they are absolutely right about the decline of common core knowledge. I think that the faculty of the late (19)60s and early (19)70s covered itself with disgrace by settling for this non-solution of dumbing down general humanities courses, telling students they could decide basically what they wanted to take, and there has been a swing the other way, but so much has been lost. So much has been lost in terms of what people have been not required to learn over the last 30 years, but I do not know if anything can ever- SM (02:44:43): It is a well-known fact- SJ (02:44:44): And computers have made it so much worse. SM (02:44:46): It is a well-known fact as I have experienced them myself, that students of the (19)60s would make demands within the university knowing that if those demands were met, they demand other things they could not demand, so nothing would ever please them. Do you think that kind of a mentality of that small percentage of activists who were really publicized highly by the media as the sample of the spokesman of the (19)60s? SJ (02:45:07): [Inaudible] SM (02:45:07): Has anything to do with the atmosphere that we had today, which was probably the same back then as not listening to each other, my way or the highway kind of mentality? SJ (02:45:24): Well, again, I think it is worse now beyond anything we could have imagined then. I do, in a way, I agree that the power of the quote activist was exaggerated. Look, I know a lot of these people who are thought to be flame-throwing activists. Some of them turned into extremely intelligent great scholars by the end of the 1970s. But I think what is going on now, I do not relate it in a direct line to the (19)60s at all. I cannot imagine, for instance, anybody like Sarah Palin even being listened to in the 1960s. When you think about who was the conservative political hero in the (19)60s, Barry Goldwater, if you think about him and Sarah Palin, just put them in the same frame for a second. If you want to see an example of the degeneration of political and intellectual culture, just see it. Barry Goldwater is a giant compared to Sarah Palin. Sarah Palin is somebody who knows nothing and is proud of it. There were people like that in the (19)60s, but they were not proud of it. They even built careers out of it. SM (02:46:45): I had a couple quotes here and we will end on these quotes. SJ (02:46:47): Okay. I have got a spot for you because I am losing you. SM (02:46:51): You have a quote here. "The denigration of fairness has infected those political and intellectualized and is now produced a culture in which disproportionate influences exercised by the loud and relentless choices of single-minded men and women of one persuasion or another." SJ (02:47:07): More true now in the second year of Obama than it was when I wrote them in 2007. Sadly, one of the most bewildering things that that is happened is that Obama, forget about whether you agree with some of the things he does or not. Obama is clearly a man of reason. I think in many ways he got elected because people were sick of the dumbness of George Bush, but when people got him, the biggest criticism made of him is that he is too cerebral. He is out of touch with what ordinary people feel. I think undoubtedly Obama's great strength and weakness is that he is a reasonable man and I do not think he could really believe that so many of his countrymen are as unreasonable and irrational as they are. I think this could be fatal to him if he does not understand it that he is dealing with a lot of people who cannot be reasonable to [inaudible]. SM (02:48:05): Would you also say, and I think you said this in your book that, in the 1960s, at least on college campuses, that someone came in from a different point of view, students will be there in numbers protesting- SJ (02:48:16): Absolutely. SM (02:48:16): And challenging us today. It is all like-minded people. SJ (02:48:21): Absolutely. It is all like-minded people who go to your like-minded people. SM (02:48:26): I got two more quotes and then we are going to end. I love this and it is in the introduction here. "In today's America, intellectuals and non-intellectual alike, whether on the left or right, tend to tune out any voice that is not an echo. The obduracy is both a manifestation of mental laziness and the essence of anti-intellectualism." SJ (02:48:47): Yes, I agree with agree with that writer! SM (02:48:52): I got lot of quotes here and my last one here is you put Thomas Jefferson's quote at the very beginning. "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." SJ (02:49:03): That is right. Why do not they just replace "In God we trust" on the coins with "Ignorant and proud of it." I do not think, in this book, that you should neglect religion. Remember the big Time cover story in 1968, "God is dead". Well, that is a real big mistake we made in the 1960s and again, the whole fundamentalist upsurge was not something that the media and liberal intellectuals were aware of at all. SM (02:49:35): The Jerry Falwells of the world. SJ (02:49:36): Unfortunately, not only is God not dead, I would not care if He were alive for reasonable people, but a particularly unreasonable kind of God is not dead. SM (02:49:43): This is the last question. Boomers are now reaching 65, as you say, and the youngest ones ever getting towards 50. When boomers are long gone, what do you think the historians, people like yourself, sociologists, writers will say about this generation or better yet the period that they live? What do they say about them? SJ (02:50:11): Well, a lot of history will be a crock. It will depend on which history books they are reading. It will depend on whether they are reading my version of the (19)60s or Todd's version of the (19)60s or Bill Kristol's version of the (19)60s. It will depend to some extent on what they think, but I will tell you one thing, and I think about this a lot as a writer and as a scholar. There is one thing I can say for certain that getting any kind of a rounded picture of who our generation was is going to be much more difficult for a historian 50 years from now than it is for us to get a picture of people who were born in 1920 are. Why? We stopped writing letters in the 1960s. This is before the computer. We stopped writing letters when long distance phone rates went way down and we have stopped writing them almost all together. Since the advent of computers, there is very little record except for a video record of the inner lives of people of our generation. You can write an excellent history of what intellectuals and activists too in the 1930s were thinking. The record of what people were thinking except for those who actually wrote books stops around 1970. You will never find out, for example, what my life was like from reading my personal correspondence because I do not have any anymore because people stopped writing me back around 1975, and that is when I stopped writing. Email has done nothing about this. Email is a totally different, non-reflective, instrumental form of communication. SM (02:51:57): Wow, you are right on that. SJ (02:51:59): I think this is one of the most important things is we are never going to have any sense of what the inner life of this generation was like. Historians are going to find it very difficult. SM (02:52:09): We took students to see John Culver, the former senator from Iowa who was a close friend of Teddy Kennedy. This was back in the (19)90s, and he said, "Now that the interview's over, I want to take it back into my office". And he says, "I want you to look at these. Have you ever seen, these are letters, these are love letters between my mom and dad. Have you ever written a letter?" No. And we are talking (19)90s now, right? She was in the (19)90s, so it is love letters. Have you ever sent a love letter to your girlfriend or boyfriend? No. So John Culver is saying, "Just you look at these and see how beautiful they are." I am going to end with this. SJ (02:52:46): I am just about had it. SM (02:52:47): Yep. Barney Frank said at the very end, he wrote a book- SJ (02:52:50): I love Barney Frank. SM (02:52:51): In his book, Speaking Frankly, he said the Democratic party to survive must separate itself from George McGovern, like McGovernites, the anti-war people, all those people that were involved in those movements if it is to survive. Mr. Barney Frank is speaking frankly. SJ (02:53:08): What makes Barney Frank think anybody remembers George McGovern? That would be my question to him. SM (02:53:13): In his book in the (19)90s, speaking frankly though, he was not attacking it as a conservative, he was attacking it as a liberal, basically saying, if we are going to survive, we have to disassociate ourselves from those people that were in the counterculture and the people that supported George McGovern in (19)72. SJ (02:53:31): And just where does Barney think his place in the party looks to people who think that the Democratic party ought a disassociated itself from people like Barney Frank. I am sorry, he has really got a nerve. I love him. SM (02:53:46): Well that was (19)92 though, so anyway. Okay. Well, thank you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Susan Jacoby Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jacoby, Susan, 1945- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors; Jacoby, Susan, 1945--Interviews Description An account of the resource Susan Jacoby is an author and has written twelve books, including The Age of American Unreason. She is a graduate from Michigan University and she now lives in New York City, where she is the program director of the New York Branch of the Center for inquiry. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-09-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.69a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.69b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 173:52 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/334827401a45e221446f14b32fc959f1.jpeg 83fe4dc791c3a34e143f9a711354df7d https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2168a95a663f9ced002e199d99e4889f.mp3 b43bd83558187ec001a4199b90cda78a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Susan (Susan Lisa) Rosenberg, 1955- Date of Interview 2011-05-31 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 224:48 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Susan Rosenberg is a far-left revolutionary, educator, author and advocate for social justice and prisoners' rights. She was active in many radical movements and she lived as a fugitive for several years. She was eventually caught and sentenced to 58 years in prison. While in prison, she became a poet, author and AIDS activist. After her release, she continued her work as an anti-prison activist, and taught literature at various colleges. Rosenburg attended the progressive Walden School and later went to Barnard College."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Susan Rosenberg is a far-left revolutionary, educator, author and advocate for social justice and prisoners' rights. She was active in many radical movements and she lived as a fugitive for several years. She was eventually caught and sentenced to 58 years in prison. While in prison, she became a poet, author and AIDS activist. After her release, she continued her work as an anti-prison activist and taught literature at various colleges. Rosenburg attended the progressive Walden School and later went to Barnard College. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"An American Radical: A Political Prisoner in My Own Country; Black Panthers; Attica Prison riot; The Midnight Special(newsletter); Abu Ghraib prison; Vietnam War; Generations; Cold War; Anti-War Movement; McCarthyism; Women's Rights Movement."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">An American Radical: A Political Prisoner in My Own Country; Black Panthers; Attica Prison riot; The Midnight Special(newsletter); Abu Ghraib prison; Vietnam War; Generations; Cold War; Anti-War Movement; McCarthyism; Women's Rights Movement. Subject LCSH Left-wing extremists; Social justice; Civil rights workers; Political activists--United States; Prisoners—Civil rights; Rosenberg, Susan (Susan Lisa), 1955--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Susan Rosenberg Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rosenberg, Susan (Susan Lisa), 1955- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Left-wing extremists; Social justice; Civil rights workers; Political activists--United States; Prisoners—Civil rights; Rosenberg, Susan (Susan Lisa), 1955--Interviews Description An account of the resource Susan Rosenberg is a far-left revolutionary, educator, author and advocate for social justice and prisoners' rights. She was active in many radical movements and she lived as a fugitive for several years. She was eventually caught and sentenced to 58 years in prison. While in prison, she became a poet, author and AIDS activist. After her release, she continued her work as an anti-prison activist and taught literature at various colleges. Rosenburg attended the progressive Walden School and later went to Barnard College. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-05-31 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.150a: McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.150b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 224:48 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d99e75132b2956762a3e55c4a95bf017.mp3 6f0dfd0c70baf7a6ee0a9c6f387b1f38 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gallagher, Susie Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dobandi, Susan Date of Interview 1978-05-18 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 20:57 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55922">Interview with Susie Gallagher</a> Subject LCSH Gallagher, Susie -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Teachers -- Interviews; Gasoline pump industry; Automobile industry and trade; World War, 1939-1945; Blittzen Station Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Mrs. Susie M. Gallagher Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi Date of interview: 18 May 1978 Susan: Mrs. Gallagher, could you start telling us a little something about your parents, where they came from, and some of your earliest recollections of your childhood and, ah, continue with where you went to school and so forth? Mrs. Gallagher: Well, I was born in my great-great-grandfather’s home. Five generations of my family have lived in that house, and he came originally from Nantucket Island, from there to the city of Hudson and from there to the—to the Dunham Hill Road, and bought up a large tract of a timber land, virgin timber, because he knew all about ship building, and he had grown-up sons to help him cut the trees, and he hewed them out and had them shaped just ready to go into the ships that was being built, and he established a quite a business for himself making the shingles and the little things called shooks that they put together shipboard to put the whale oil in. And  when he first went there the neighbors around helped him build a log house because there had, nobody ever had lived there, and later on the land became cleared and he built a New England-style house—salt box shaped which was, ah, to me a very charming place, and ah, I feel that I had such a happy childhood. No Queen of England could have enjoyed it more than I did, but now it's all grown back up to timber again. It's all woods almost everywhere. The house is still there but it looks like a junk pile and there is another small house has been built in the rear of it and it's a place that I don't even like to look at anymore. That's what, ah, evolution has done to that place. Susan: Mrs. Gallagher, let's continue and tell us what it was like when you were a little girl growing up in that home on Dunham Hill Road that your hus—that your father built for you. Mrs. Gallagher: Well, I'll tell you what it was like in the wintertime. In the wintertime we practically lived in the kitchen. It was a large kitchen. It had a lounge in it. It had a built-in bookcase with drawers below that, and it also had a recess in the wall that the clock fit into. And we had a—to go down cellar, we had a, I guess it's called a trap door. There was a big iron ring in it, you pulled that door up and went down cellar that way, but also there was a—a cellar entrance outside that was called a cellar hatchway and, ah, that was used in the summertime. Now what else was there? Susan: About your summer kitchen. Mrs. Gallagher: Oh, then there was a walk led from the kitchen door out to a—a porch that went into a summer kitchen. It was quite a large building. It had, ah, in it, everything. It had a, a good iron range. It had a, almost like what we'd call a kitchen cabinet now, all made by hand where you put the—the cornmeal and the flour and the, all of those things, and the cupboard—a tall cupboard that stood on the floor. It had a long, ah, what's called a dry sink. It was wood but it was a long sink, you could set your dish pan and other things into it, and it had a spout that you could turn the water off if you wanted to and it would go outside if you'd want it to, it would go outdoors. We also had a grandfather clock in that summer kitchen, and just as soon it got warm at all, we moved out there to cook and eat there all summer long, and we put a carpet on the floor of the kitchen in the house and used that for a sitting room in the summertime. But we had a very nice parlor and it had small panes of glass, and when my son saw the picture he said, “Oh, we have twelve over twelve.” That means twelve panes of glass over twelve panes of glass, which was considered, ah, high class on the island of Nantucket. He was—he was so thrilled when he saw that, and well, there was a cupboard—a little bedroom, right near the head of the stairs there was a little bedroom. The roof slanted in it and you could go in there, turn around, in the corner there was a window and then there was a cupboard built in there of shelves and below that a cupboard with a door, and the handle on the door was made of scrimshaw. Scrimshaw is what the sailors made out of ivory when they were on the whaling voyages, and it's a hand that’s clasping a little, a round stick, and when our old home was sold I took that off and I now—it is now in my son Wendell's home on a corner cupboard that he has. Susan: Tell us what you did when you were a little girl. How many people lived in that house with you? Mrs. Gallagher: Well, when my mother was married and went there my great-grandfather had passed away, but his daughter who had lived with him was still there, so she had the parlor part of the house and the bedroom upstairs, and my mother had the kitchen and the pantry and a bedroom and the small bedroom upstairs, that part of the house, and I can't even remember Aunt Elizabeth because I wasn't old enough when she had a slight stroke and she went right back to Hudson because she wanted to be buried where her mother was and her—the rest of her family in Hudson. Susan: Now getting back to, ah, Broome County here on Dunham Hill Road. What was life like for you then? Mrs. Gallagher: It was a mile to walk to the school. You had to go up a hill and then it was a long stretch, it was nice and level, then you went down a little hill and up another hill, then there was a level stretch and you went up another hill, all that, on the way to school. The school house was a—a very nice building. It was one room, of course, but it had a separate hallway for the girls on the left side, on the right side was a hallway for the boys. Then there was a circle seat between those two closets or hallways, whatever you call them. Susan: How many classes did they have? Mrs. Gallagher: How many what? Susan: How many grades? How many grades did they have? Mrs. Gallagher: Oh—in a country school you had everything from the baby class to the graduation class, all grades in a country school, and 26 families sent their children to that school, and we had very very nice teachers and that is why I wanted to be a teacher. I admired those teachers so much I said, “I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to be a teacher,” and I stuck to it and I taught for six years in Johnson City and I taught a couple years in a country school and I didn't like the country schools—too hard to teach all those grades. Susan: Where did you receive your schooling? Mrs. Gallagher: I went to Binghamton Central one year. I went to Johnson City High School two years, and then I went to a teachers’ training school and then— Susan: Where was that located? Mrs. Gallagher: That was located in Whitney Point, and then I went to Cortland summer school and I had just passed Regents Examinations, until I obtained a State Certificate, the last one that ever was issued. I came in under the line. So, well—we, in our family there were two boys, then two girls, and then two boys, and we all left home, it seems, when we were about 18 years old, you know, when we left, and it's hard to keep young people on the farm. They had bigger ideas, but we all loved to get back there. There were so many nice things on that farm. There was a pond. There was a spring, and when my father was a young man he had made a terrace around, all around the edge of that, and we could sit on that and always put frogs in it. We always called it the frog spring. Then there was a fence, a cow pasture fence, and the spring continued on under that fence where the cows and horses came to drink. Susan: Well, can you remember what you did for your social life when you were a young girl growing up on the farm? Mrs. Gallagher: Well, then when I got older we went to Castle Creek. We had lots of parties in Castle Creek and we went to the Baptist Church in Castle Creek, but there were a lot of girls in the country school, you know, that we enjoyed, so we had plenty of social life. Susan: Well, now tell us about how you got into that business with your husband. Mrs. Gallagher: Oh, on the corner down here? Susan: Uh huh. Mrs. Gallagher: Well, if I even, when I passed by that old hotel on the corner of Front and Prospect St., which I always had to go by when I came to Binghamton, if I ever could have dreamed that I'd ever have lived in that place I would have said you’re out of your mind, but I lived there twelve years and a half in a very nice apartment over the business place which went from a used car business— Susan: Well, let's—let's mention here that it started out as an Inn before you had purchased it. Mrs. Gallagher: Oh, uh huh. It—it was a very old—a very old hotel. It was famous, you know, probably it was well over a hundred years old, you know. It was an old building—the only thing I remember hearing about it was there was a man there, a proprietor named Cap Hasley, and I guess “Cap” meant “Captain.” They always called him “Cap Hasley.” Maybe some people living that would remember—still remember something about it, but it had a “For Sale” sign on it, so Mr. R.J. Bump bought the place and set my husband up in business there. It was planned for selling used cars. They put in one gas pump in there, because people, ah, needed the convenience, and surprisingly they sold a lot of gas, and it, eventually they gradually went out of the used car business and put in more pumps and they were in the gasoline business. Susan: Well, then it prospered until the highway came along. Mrs. Gallagher: Then it was a very good business for a long time, until the highway was changed and they took the old Prospect St. out entirely and the service station was gone. Then my husband died and my son took over the business, but they—they built a smaller station because when the—when the government took over the property, they left a little piece of land in there shaped like a piece of cheese. No access to it in any kind of a way, but my son and I finally decided that the smartest thing to do would be to buy more land in there and build a smaller station there, which is what we did, which is now there at the present time. Susan: That's called the Blittzen Station. Mrs. Gallagher: Well, my husband named it the Blittzen Station years ago when he first started, the name has been kept. Susan: Well, tell us about your family. How many children did you have, Mrs. Gallagher? Mrs. Gallagher: Well, my father’s name was Robert Stevens Hall and my mother's name was Lucy Mirrah Howard and they met in the country school, and when they were married my great-grandfather had passed away and his daughter was still living there, so she had part of the house and my mother shared a part of the house with her and, ah, she had a stroke, a slight stroke, which worried her, and she just made plans to go as fast as she could, get there out to the city of Hudson, where her sister lived and where her mother was buried, and she died there. Then my father bought the place. Did I have my father's name in there? Susan: Hall, wasn't it? Mrs. Gallagher: And eventually they had six children. They had Harry and Claude, then they had Susie and Marjorie, and then they had William and Ray, and that was my family. Susan: Now how many did you and Mr. Gallagher have? Mrs. Gallagher: Well, I married Robert J. Gallagher and we had three sons. Our oldest son, Robert, was killed in the South Pacific in the Second World War, and my three sons were all in the War in 1942, all three of them, and one was crossing the Atlantic chasing subs, the other was over in the Pacific and he was stationed in Australia quite a while. Well, when it was all over and they came home my son Gordon decided he'd be a dentist, so he went to college in Scranton and five years in the University of Buffalo. And my son Wendell went to Syracuse University Art School. He graduated with the highest honors in the class, but he found that there wasn't much of any way to make a living in that line so he went to work for his father, and after his father passed away I inherited everything, but I finally gave the Front St. business to my son Wendell, which he is still carrying on. Susan: Well, thank you very much, Mrs. Gallagher, for the interview. It has been nice talking with you. Mrs. Gallagher: I've enjoyed it. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Susie Gallagher Subject The topic of the resource Gallagher, Susie -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Teachers -- Interviews; Gasoline pump industry; Automobile industry and trade; World War, 1939-1945; Blittzen Station Description An account of the resource Susie Gallagher discusses her childhood and the family home she grew up in. She mentions becoming a teacher and taught school for several years. She and her husband purchased an inn and converted it to an automobile dealership and then to a gasoline station, known as the Blittzen Station. She also talks about her three sons who served in World War II. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 26 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gallagher, Susie ; Dobandi, Susan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-05-18 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 20:57 Minutes