95 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fd942ffef0e5ff08e6aeedd1c0386891.jpg 9dcc26cd2857d0cb7e99fe250df3650e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9b2d9174377c9729585e0282c5fc60bf.mp3 a9280ed620612055cf574d30b99ef6d4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Torie Osborn Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Torie Osborn is a community organizer, activist, and author. She received her Bachelor's in English from Middlebury College and her Master's degree in Business Administration from UCLA. Osborn was the first woman Executive Director of the Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Center. She was also an executive board member for the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and the Liberty Hill Foundation. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5039,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,5099745],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Torie Osborn is a community organizer, activist, and author. She received her Bachelor's in English from Middlebury College and her Master's degree in Business Administration from UCLA. Osborn was the first woman Executive Director of the Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Center. She was also an executive board member for the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and the Liberty Hill Foundation. Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Counterculture; Watergate; Black Panthers; Anti-war movement; Baby boom generation; Civil rights movement; Women's movement; Vietnam memorial; Tom Hayden; Lyndon B. Johnson; Eugene McCarthy; Angela Davis; George McGovern; Daniel Ellsberg; Spiro Agnew; Richard Nixon; LGBT, Gay and Lesbian Movement"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5041,"3":{"1":0},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Counterculture; Watergate; Black Panthers; Anti-war movement; Baby boom generation; Civil rights movement; Women's movement; Vietnam memorial; Tom Hayden; Lyndon B. Johnson; Eugene McCarthy; Angela Davis; George McGovern; Daniel Ellsberg; Spiro Agnew; Richard Nixon; LGBT; Gay and Lesbian Movement. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 96:12 Subject LCSH Authors; Civil rights workers; Osborn, Torie--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Torrie Osborn Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Osborn, Torie ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors; Civil rights workers; Osborn, Torie--Interviews Description An account of the resource Torie Osborn is a community organizer, activist, and author. She got her Bachelor's in English from Middlebury College and her Master of Business Administration from UCLA. Osborn was the first woman Executive Director of the Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Center. She was also an executive board member for the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and the Liberty Hill Foundation. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.138a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.138b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 96:12 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/41774088b21335181c6730be7444d171.jpg dfa9269d08933e281a9474035c33e6e1 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fd8b1d82d66849bb9b20e5a76530d3da.mp3 4ba138d541daa24b62bd12371bed9dd8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Troy D. Perry Date of Interview 2010-05-11 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 124:39 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Rev. Troy Perry is an author, activist and founder of the Metropolitan Community Church, which belongs to a Protestant denomination known for affirming with the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender communities. He became a licensed Baptist preacher by the age of 15 and was a pastor of several churches several years later, during which he was battling with his sexuality. Perry wrote several books including his autobiography, The Lord is My Shephard and He Knows I'm Gay."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Rev. Troy Perry is an author, activist, and founder of the Metropolitan Community Church, which belongs to a Protestant denomination known for affirming with the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender communities. He became a licensed Baptist preacher by the age of 15 and was a pastor of several churches several years later, during which he was battling with his sexuality. Perry wrote several books including his autobiography, The Lord is My Shephard and He Knows I'm Gay. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Activism; Gay Rights; Ronald Reagan; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Stonewall Riots; Vietnam Memorial; AIDS; religion; Anti-war; Vietnam Veterans; Leonard Matlovich, LGBT."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Activism; Gay Rights; Ronald Reagan; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Stonewall Riots; Vietnam Memorial; AIDS; religion; Anti-war; Vietnam Veterans; Leonard Matlovich, LGBT. Subject LCSH Clergy; Authors, American--20th century; Civil rights workers; Metropolitan Community Church; Perry, Troy D.--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Troy Perry Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Perry, Troy D. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Clergy; Authors, American--20th century; Civil rights workers; Metropolitan Community Church; Perry, Troy D.--Interviews Description An account of the resource Rev. Troy Perry is an author, activist, and founder of the Metropolitan Community Church, which belongs to a Protestant denomination known for affirming with the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender communities. He became a licensed Baptist preacher by the age of 15 and was a pastor of several churches several years later, during which he was battling with his sexuality. Perry wrote several books including his autobiography, The Lord is My Shephard and He Knows I'm Gay. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-05-11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.145a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.145b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 124:39 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/19aec0d69a227cfcfee34ad3d48a7aab.mp3 6e5473e0521aec640c89d6a326a35343 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project. These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 31 May 2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marwan Tawfiq Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ubaid Barwary Language Kurdish Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ubaid Barwary https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/720d17f8efd07001e02b0361ff89d86f.jpg e2fcc22995a7a2ecdca529aa40f85843 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/58af0198e0506e0f488f9f3d6b8da9c3.mp3 c4eaae83e953462122c1f5c1f92db3a2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-02-06 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed V. P. (Vincent P.) Franklin, 1947- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. V.P. Franklin is a Distinguished Professor of History and Education at the University of California, Riverside. Dr. Franklin is the editor of the Journal of African American History. He is the author of The Education of Black Philadelphia: The Social and Educational History of a Minority Community, 1900-1950, Black Self-Determination: A Cultural History of African American Resistance, Living Our Stories, Telling Our Truths: Autobiography and the Making of the African American Intellectual Tradition, and Martin Luther King Jr.: A Biography. Dr. Franklin received his Bachelor's degree from Penn State University, his Master's degree in Teaching from Harvard University, and a Ph.D. in the History of Education from the University of Chicago."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. V.P. Franklin is a Distinguished Professor of History and Education at the University of California, Riverside. Dr. Franklin is the editor of the Journal of African American History. He is the author of The Education of Black Philadelphia: The Social and Educational History of a Minority Community, 1900-1950, Black Self-Determination: A Cultural History of African American Resistance, Living Our Stories, Telling Our Truths: Autobiography and the Making of the African American Intellectual Tradition, and Martin Luther King Jr.: A Biography. Dr. Franklin received his Bachelor's degree from Penn State University, his Master's degree in Teaching from Harvard University, and a Ph.D. in the History of Education from the University of Chicago. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Penn State University; Harvard; The Young Americans for Freedom; African American student; Black Power; Jackson State; Anti-War Movement; Black Panthers; John Carlos; Students for a Democratic Society; Weathermen; Nation of Islam; Richard Nixon; Black capitalism; Ronald Reagan; George H.W. Bush; Vietnam drafts."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792}}">Penn State University; Harvard; The Young Americans for Freedom; African American student; Black Power; Jackson State; Anti-War Movement; Black Panthers; John Carlos; Students for a Democratic Society; Weathermen; Nation of Islam; Richard Nixon; Black capitalism; Ronald Reagan; George H.W. Bush; Vietnam drafts. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 151:14 Subject LCSH College teachers; University of California, Riverside; Editors; Authors; Franklin, V. P. (Vincent P.), 1947--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with V.P. Franklin Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Franklin, V. P. (Vincent P.), 1947- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource College teachers; University of California, Riverside; Editors; Authors; Franklin, V. P. (Vincent P.), 1947--Interviews Description An account of the resource V.P. Franklin is a distinguished Professor of History and Education at the University of California, Riverside. Dr. Franklin is the editor of the Journal of African American History. He is the author of The Education of Black Philadelphia: The Social and Educational History of a Minority Community, 1900-1950. <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. V.P. Franklin is a Distinguished Professor of History and Education at the University of California, Riverside. Dr. Franklin is the editor of the Journal of African American History. He is the author of The Education of Black Philadelphia: The Social and Educational History of a Minority Community, 1900-1950, Black Self-Determination: A Cultural History of African American Resistance, Living Our Stories, Telling Our Truths: Autobiography and the Making of the African American Intellectual Tradition, and Martin Luther King Jr.: A Biography. Dr. Franklin received his Bachelor's degree from Penn State University, his Master's degree in Teaching from Harvard University, and a Ph.D. in the History of Education from the University of Chicago."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. V.P. Franklin is a Distinguished Professor of History and Education at the University of California, Riverside. Dr. Franklin is the editor of the Journal of African American History. He is the author of The Education of Black Philadelphia: The Social and Educational History of a Minority Community, 1900-1950, Black Self-Determination: A Cultural History of African American Resistance, Living Our Stories, Telling Our Truths: Autobiography and the Making of the African American Intellectual Tradition, and Martin Luther King Jr.: A Biography. Dr. Franklin received his Bachelor's degree from Penn State University, his Master's degree in Teaching from Harvard University, and a Ph.D. in the History of Education from the University of Chicago. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-02-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.53a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.53b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 151:14 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2f81ca0533c167c0435945798ae2da13.mp3 c83f398f22bcd7818e68f7b1f7de3fa0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 3/28/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Varoujan Froundjian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 16:55 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Varoujan was born in Beirut and came to the United States as a student in 1979 to study theology. He earned his Maaster of Arts degree from Theatrical Instidute of Armenia. Varoujan has two children, Rafi and Anoosh"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Varoujan Froundjian is a graphic designer, writer, and cartoonist. He was born in Beirut, Lebanon, and came to the United States as a student in 1979 to study theology. He earned his Master of Arts degree  from Theatrical Instidute of Armenia. Varoujan has two children, Anoush and Rafi. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Lebanon; Armenia; church; language; traditions; assimilation; diaspora; gender roles; American culture; Lebanese culture"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Lebanon; Armenia; Armenian church; Armenian; Traditions; Assimilation; Diaspora; Gender roles; American culture; Lebanese culture; Armenian culture. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Varoujan Froundjian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 28 March 2016 Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone conducting an interview for the Armenian Oral History Project with the Special Collection Section of the Binghamton University Library at Binghamton University. Would you please state your name, your age and a little basic biographical information for the record? 0:16 VF: Sure, my name is Varoujan Froundjian. I am born August 7th, 1952. I am sixty-three years old. I am born in Beirut, Lebanon from Armenian descent. 0:34 GS: Okay, what were your ̶ Were you an immigrant to this country? 0:39 VF: Yes, I moved to this country in 1979. 0:41 GS: In 1979, so you were sixteen years old when you came here, no you were ̶ 0:44 VF: I was twenty-six. 0:45 GS: You were twenty-six, I confused 1962 with sixty-three years old. 0:52 VF: When you say immigrant that might not be the right term, I came here as a student with a student visa to study theology and then my plans changed when I met my wife. 1:07 GS: Oh, can you tell me a little about your parents? 1:09 VF: Yes. My parents, my father his name was Setrak Froundjian. And my mother’s name Lusaper Froundjian. My father was actually in my grandmother’s tummy while they were going through the death marches. And as they tell me, my grandmother had twin, one of them died during death marches and my father survived. It was told that they come from town Sis in Turkey. 1:48 GS: Sis in Turkey, and so they fled until Lebanon. 1:50 VF: They fled to Lebanon. 1:52 GS: They fled to Lebanon and then you immigrated here. And obviously you spoke, you grew up speaking Armenian? 1:59 VF: I speak Armenian, fluent Armenian at my home. 2:02 GS: Did you grow up speaking any other languages? 2:04 VF: Yes, since we were living in Beirut, I learned Arabic, some French. Beirut is a cosmopolitan city. There are a lot of different tourists and different people. So I know some French, some Russian, some Arabic, and some Turkish. 2:21 GS: Would you say you speak any of those languages fluently or even proficiently? 2:26 VF: No, I can just say you know, I know the basics. 2:29 GS: You know the basics, okay, when so we will go straight to your life here. Can you tell us ̶ do you have any children? 2:38 VF: Yes, I do. I have a thirty year old daughter. Her name is Anoush who is an artist. She is a graphic artist, and my son Rafi, he is twenty-four, he is also an artist. He is musician. 2:51 GS: Okay, what was your highest level of education? 2:54 VF: I have a Master of Arts degree in Theatre Arts in which I took that from Armenia actually, from Theatrical Institute in Armenia and I graduated in 1977. 3:13 GS: Okay, growing up, how important ̶ as your children were growing up, how important was it for you that they speak Armenian? 3:19 VF: That is a very interesting question because when I first came to this country, I was married and I had my first daughter Anoush, my loyalty to my Armenian heritage and the culture was extremely strong. I wanted to make sure that Anoush will go to Armenian school so that she will learn Armenian language and she will inherit most of our culture, stories and she would know and that is why Anoush knows how to speaks Armenian and she is much more aware of Armenian culture, unlike Rafi, even though I tried to do the same to him, I had changed my ̶ I had become more Americanized ̶ my maybe loyalty, my interest was much more about making a living rather than preserving the culture so I kind of got laid back that is why Rafi does not speak Armenian, and his knowledge about Armenian history and culture is much much less than ̶ 4:20 GS: What would you say is the major differences between the Armenian community you grew up as a child in Lebanon and the Armenian community that you were part of here? 4:31 VF: Basically, they are the same. 4:33 GS: Wow, please can you explain? 4:35 VF: Basically they are the same because other than certain cultural or linguistic things like for instance, American Armenians would not speak Armenian fluently like the Middle Eastern, but as I came to this country and I noticed their attachment to church is the same, their attachment to holidays are the same, their attachment to celebrate holidays are the same. They give the passion to cooking and preserving culture, you know it is pretty much the same except the language. And also, the knowledge, since there is they did not speak Armenian, so they have less knowledge of Armenian literature, Armenian poetry, Armenian that is the part which lacks when it comes to American Armenians. 5:31 GS: Have you ever travelled to Turkey? 5:34 VF: I never did, no. 5:36 GS: Did you travel to Armenia after moving back here? 5:38 VF: Actually, I never went back, I never went back either to Lebanon or Armenia because it just for me it was difficult to make ends meet and I did not have extra funds to go back. 5:57 GS: What knew traditions would you say that you embraced coming to live here in America that you may have left behind? 6:05 VF: I have to be very honest when I came to this country I was extremely prejudiced, I was extremely anti-Semitic, anti-gay. I was very traditional person but America changed me, changed me in a very good way. It took away a lot of myths that I knew about people, about Jewish people, about gay people, about people who do not look like me or they do not talk like me. America has the ability kind of mix people together. You meet them every day especially when you are in New York, in Queens there are thousands of different dialects and different ethnicities and contacting with these people you start gradually let go off your old myths, and let go of your prejudices and you start looking and seeing the human being with the people that you deal with. You do not think in terms of ‘Oh, this person belongs to such and such’ when you just start dealing with these people on every day level and that is exactly what helped me to let go of my old thinking and embrace this beautiful thing which is America offers, equality and freedom of speech and especially the prejudice that we have which if I can put this in parenthesis, I cannot believe that it is coming back. That is a whole different subject. 7:46 GS: A whole different subject. How would you define assimilation today? And what was the assimilation process like coming to America, I know you talked about the feeling back of prejudice but what other challenges did you face? 8:09 VF: I think the most challenge is that no matter how valuable your cultural background is, your history, all the symbols that you have in your life [inaudible] and the churches and the culture and the music, suddenly it becomes almost unimportant, that is the sadness, that is the part that you had to kind of live with it because here you have to find a job, you have to make a living, you have to interact with different people. Suddenly all these valuable things, you do not even have time to read poetry, you do not even have time to go back to read Armenian novel for instance, and also the competition is very strong compared to my Armenian literature, that writers that I knew which were mostly provincial suddenly you are here you are reading Hemmingway, you are reading Faulkner, you are reading Shakespeare, suddenly the level is much much much higher and complex and you are fascinated about it and you kind of begrudgingly you have to let go your all the school thinking and get adopt a whole new vocabulary, a whole new level of thinking. 9:44 GS: How would you define being Armenian? 9:53 VF: I have changed a lot. I have changed a lot. I do not even consider myself Armenian now. 10:00 GS: What would you identify yourself as? 10:03 VF: I will consider myself a New Yorker, an American. 10:08 GS: Oh, please continue, what would you say defines one’s being Armenian? 10:12 VF: You asked me that question, have you ever gone back to Beirut, one of the reason I never gone back beside financial things, because I do not want to go back to the old mentality. New York and America has given me so much to enrich my new being that going back to Beirut it is almost going back to old fashion medieval times. I have changed a lot. I have become much more complicated. I have lost my sentimental attachment to old values. New York, when I read New York Times that New York Times is much more the pleasure and treasure than you know going back and reading a playbook for instance. 10:59 GS: How do you think your children will define being Armenian? 11:02 VF: For them it will going to be some kind of myth, some kind of a background story which, when it comes to Anoosh, I am something really surprised that she has great attachment. She in fact she tells me that can we speak Armenian, can we stop English and talk Armenian. That surprises me because I am much less Armenian now, I am much more Americanized. And I am kind of happy to see her that she wants to be Armenian. 11:36 GS: How do you view the Armenian diaspora in America? What are your thoughts, do you think it is an accident of history or something that’s here to stay? And do you think it has its own identity as opposed to native Armenians in Armenia today? 11:51 VF: Okay, there is no identity. I do not believe that that is where identity, and there is no Armenian identity in Armenia either. It is globalization now. We live in a whole different century. In this age it is even almost attachment to locality does not even exist. Only if it is maybe in terms of some basic cultural things and how to cook, how to you know talk, other than that, we are in global society now. It is all different. There are no more villages, there are no more old provinces. We are all on Facebook. You know, it is like we are very modernized. There is no such, I do not believe that there is such thing as identity anymore. 12:38 GS: Okay, what were the gender roles like in your household for your parents growing up? How would they when you were an adult, raising your children what were the gender roles and what are your views on how gender roles are in society today? 12:55 VF: Yeah, it was, I have to tell you it was brutal. It was extremely inhumane the way women were treated when I was growing up. Women had certain roles and they could not do beyond what they ̶ Other than looking beautiful and making babies they did not have any ̶ and laundry and food shopping, they did not have any more except, especially my household, where my father did pretty much all, although even though my mother made all this daily decisions, it was my father who would give the flag, giving the final word, you know, even if even in the on everyday basis when they shared decision-making process. It was always known that the women the secondary citizen, you know the man are the one who make the decision. 13:48 GS: Do you think that was the product of growing up in Beirut or growing up in an Armenian household or some combination of both? 13:55 VF: It is combination because part of it the culture, part of it is Middle Eastern culture that treating of women goes all the way back the biblical times you know. We were not as harsh as some groups who they do vaginal cutting or certain things you know when they treat women. Women do not even have the right to have pleasure, you know, we were not in that circumstances ̶ 14:24 GS: Circumcision? 14:25 VF: Exactly, we were not that extreme but still women were second class citizens. 14:31 GS: What about with you and your wife as you raised your children in your household? What were the gender roles there? 14:39 VF: I think the switch happened automatically because first of all my wife was an American. She knew about how things work in this country much better. So I had to listen to her most of the time, you know, what to do and how to solve certain problem and she always came up with good ideas. I almost had the secondary role, you know, my role was mostly to educate my children, to make sure that they have good education, and but most of the decision-making was done by, you know, Suzanne. 15:15 GS: Okay, and what are your thoughts on gender roles today in society? 15:23 VF: Still, even though you know we live in the United States where we are so open-minded, the old rules are still exist. You know women are mostly sex symbols, you know whether on the TV, in the movies, in daily life even though there are a vast tremendously with feminism and thing, but still the old concept of women are object of pleasure. That still stays. 15:54 GS: Is there any last story you might wanna share that you think would be useful for the record? 16:99 VF: All I can say is that when I came to America, America was not my best choice. I much rather I always thought I will like end up in France or England. For me America was kind of like a middle class, a country of Jeans, and Coke and Hollywood, old you know average level of intelligence. That is how I thought, but it was convenient because I got the student visa, but I am glad I came here. I am glad I came here, because one thing that America gave me, is changed me. I am not an opinionated person like I used to be. I am much more easygoing open-minded person and I consider you know what other people think ̶ there is no right or wrong. That is what United States gave me. 16:52 GS: Okay, well thank you very much for your time. 16:54 VF: Wonderful. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Varoujan Froundjian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3a8c37b34ea56f6ce9e2cff1bc9c547a.mp3 031dcbd2a02628bce97c9e6894c2e3f5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 11/26/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Varoujan Kabakian Language Engish Digital Publisher Binghamron University Digital Format Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 21:50 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Varoujan Kabakian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 26 November 2017 Interview Setting: Phone Interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University Special Collection Library Armenian Oral History Project. Today is November 26, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:15 VK: Yeah, my name is Varoujan Kabakian. 0:18 JK: And where were you born? 0:20 VK: I am born in Beirut, Lebanon. 0:24 JK: And who are your ̶ Who are your parents and where were they born? 0:29 VK: Yeah, my father was born in. Um, Antep, the old Armenia and now it is Turkish area. My mother was born in Beirut, Lebanon. 0:45 JK: And, um ̶ Why did they ̶ Why did not ̶ How did you relocate from Canada or from Lebanon to Canada or from Antep, as well? 1:00 VK: Yeah, well, you know, from my father was born in just before the Armenian genocide. And so with the parents, they run down south on the map to Aleppo, Syria, because of the First World War. And after a while they move to Beirut, which is a bit southern and on the Mediterranean and where he met my mother, and they got married, and I have three brothers ̶ no, two brothers and two sisters. And what happened is I am born in Beirut and when I was eighteen, the Civil War breakup in Lebanon, the famous Civil War in Lebanon. So as we were Armenians and the Civil War was among the Arabs and Palestinians, you know, religion all mixed up. We were not involved in the Civil War. So what happened is we decided to move on. And then at that time, the Canadian Embassy was making it easy for us to immigrate to Canada. So we applied and we got accepted and we came to Canada. That was, that was what happened like we keep on moving and moving. But now Canada is, you know, more Christian countries. So as we are Christians, we find finally a country that is close to our customs on the origin. 2:59 JK: Hmm, do you recall the stories of your father who lived in Antep? What it was like in the village? 3:08 VK: Yeah, yeah, was ̶ What I heard like they used to talk a lot at that time, you know, because the memories were fresh when I was young. They kept on telling us the stories. It was a nice, very nice village, you know, like, more with the ̶ Um, surrounded with vineyards. And they were really the vineyards was the main agricultural aspect of the village, you know, like hills. 3:43 JK: Yeah. Yeah. 3:48 VK: And what can I say? Very nice place, very nice. The weather was very nice. I mean hot. 3:56 JK: Was it mostly Armenians? 4:00 VK: Dry, I guess. And they were in the vineyard business. And then with the war they moved on to, as I said to down south to Syria, which, which, which they welcome them and you know, the life continues. 4:16 JK: So they had to leave Antep. 4:20 VK: Yeah. 4:20 JK: Were they forced? 4:23 VK: Because after ̶ Like a civil war and the genocide as it turned to genocide, you know, it was a mixed with the First World War and again, was not far from so they had to run for their lives. Otherwise, I would not be here. That is what happens. You know, you have to sometimes you have to ̶ you know like get a ̶ you have to ̶ 4:53 JK: What did, what did your father do and how old was he when he left? Do you remember? Was ̶ you? 5:03 VK: Oh yeah, he was like a baby when he left Antep, he was like two years old, two, three years old, newly born or I guess, something like that we never know the real age because you know, of the events there. You know, they did not kept record of the ̶ I do not know, I guess the real date but it was very it was very small. 5:30 JK: Did he have any? Did he have any siblings? 5:33 VK: The family they moved into Aleppo and the father, they survived that to do their work and to find other ways. Yeah. 5:45 JK: Yeah. Did he have any siblings growing up or was it just him? 5:54 VK: I did not get it. Sorry. 5:55 JK: Did he have any siblings growing up brothers or sisters? 6:01 VK: Yeah, for sure. Umm, he told me like you had the brother, an older brother. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was what the ̶ his brother helped him I guess survive and the ̶ I do not remember, I guess yeah one brother. Yeah. 6:27 JK: Okay. Both of your parents were Armenian correct, 100 percent? 6:33 VK: Yeah. 100 percent yeah. 6:37 JK: And growing up in Lebanon, did they keep the Armenian tradition or did you go to Armenian Church or school? 6:46 VK: Yeah, what happened is as a refugee like the number at that time was a huge you know, because it was a mass movement of people from Armenia to Syria, Lebanon. And Lebanon to ̶ So what happened is because of the number we were like we, we were elected. Kept all our tradition because, because of the number right. We were not like, one person, or one thousand ̶ At that time, I imagine was like, by ten out of ten thousands of them, you know, like they moved into Lebanon. So they lived together like as, as a community so and when you live together as a community, they build church, they build a school. What happens, we were lucky to keep our traditions and everything because we were not dispersed among other religions because you know, Lebanon, there are so many religions, there are no Muslims, different kinds of Muslims, different kind of Christians. You Name it. So, we live ̶ the neighborhood was we were all Armenians. You know the school was not far, the church was not far so I do not even remember I had ̶ a friend. All my friends were Armenian. I know my father because of the work, you know, you get involved with different people but me as a born in Beirut, it was as if I was in Armenia. [laughs] You know, like, all my friends were Armenian, the area was Armenian. That was how we kept our division. 8:37 JK: What are your parents do in Lebanon for work? 8:43 VK: Oh, my father, I think my father was very bright. So what happened is, he came to the States to study university and he graduated from Wyoming University. So, when he returned to Lebanon, he was in the textile business you know, like he was very talented in, in the field, the chemistry field. So he did a lot of things, dyeing textiles, coloring, textiles, printing, so he was in that business. So until the civil war he was he had his own place. He was producing different kind of textiles, silk, cotton um, you know. 9:42 JK: And, so, would you say all of your friends were mostly Armenian growing up? 9:48 VK: Yeah, yeah, Lebanon, we were mostly, like I said, I do not remember I had a friend or another ̶ Yeah, they were all Armenians because we were living in an Armenian neighborhood you know. As I said we had the numbers so we were in the neighborhood of Armenians. You know, when I was schooling when I finished I did not even finish the school so because of the Civil War, so I came I did not have the chance to go out for sure you go to the mountains you go somewhere else in Lebanon. For sure you see little, but that was only temporary ̶ time we spend like with Armenians. 10:34 JK: Did you learn Armenian growing up as a kid or did you speak in the household? 10:43 VK: Yeah, we use ̶ my mother, you know my mother language, my father language was Armenian with the house we used to speak Armenian. Of course in the school we learn Arabic, we learn French, we learn English, as well as Armenian. So ̶ But there is no problem with that. 11:04 JK: And so when you when you were with your siblings and your family would speak mainly Armenian? 11:10 VK: Yeah that time you love or not like, you will not see ̶ it was hardly only the older people they used to speak Turkish because of the back ̶ in their country you know like used to be only Turkish because it was forbidden to speak Armenian in Armenia. But in West Armenia, in eastern Armenia and nor was forbidden to speak Armenia, Armenian you know. You had to speak Turkish so the older people were speaking Turkish at home, but the younger generation somehow learn more Armenian than Turkish, yeah. 12:01 JK: Did your parents know Turkish or no? 12:05 VK: No, no, no. Yeah, my ̶ They used to speak Turkish. Yeah, but they are Armenian. They are Armenians born in eastern Armenia. Eastern Armenia? No, I mean western Armenia. Sorry. Western Armenia is more Turkish speaking because of the Turkish Empire you know? Yeah. 12:27 JK: Yeah. 12:29 VK: Yeah. History is, it is another aspect. 12:39 JK: When, um, when so when your father was in Antep, were your family forbidden to speak Armenian or was there Armenians in the area, would you ̶ 12:51 VK: He was, he was forbidden to speak Armenian at home even at home. You know, if you Speak, you have to speak like you have to make sure that you speak there was no nobody hears because if somebody hears and they tell the government you know, they ̶ there were some penalties, big penalties. I do not want to go far. [laughs] But there were some penalties ̶ was very bad becoming in at that time. 13:19 JK: And, how did you ̶ Have you ever wanted to go back to the village or Armenia? Wherever? Have you ever been back? 13:29 VK: No, I have not been but my cousin went, like twenty years, like, I think, or fifteen years ago, she went and there were ̶ she said, there were still some Armenian homes left but with no Armenians, but they turn it to move museums. You know, like, you could tell me in names still you could see some, some history that ̶ it has still kept but now they are all Kurdish and some Turks, you know, because it is an area that Armenia is shared with the Kurdish people, you know, and Kurdish people were Muslim. So that is why they survived because of their religion and we as being a Christian, we had to move on, you know. We had to emigrate south. 14:26 JK: Yeah. And, um, when you move to Montreal, Canada, did you guys keep the Armenian traditions? 14:39 VK: A Yes. For sure. Because Canada, Montreal being a Christian city, you know, and it was easier, you know, religion side, at least more freedom of religious expression and everything. And the tradition. Yeah, there were ̶ As I said, in Beirut there were we had some numbers when we came to Montreal, there was an Armenian community already established here. So but not as much as in Lebanon you know, but still, if you want to keep your tradition you could keep your tradition because you have community which is still remembering the Armenian tradition. 15:29 JK: And um, in the house would you grew up in your household with your family? What kind of traditions did you guys keep that were Armenian like the food or holidays that you celebrated? 15:45 VK: The holidays especially the ̶ all the food for sure, because we were used to it that Mediterranean style food but for sure. We ̶ Canadian French food and Canadian Food is welcome too. Because it is not, it is not complicated as Armenian food so it's easier to make you cannot always make Armenian traditional food so you make Canadian of food which is more convenient. But holidays is the second thing that we respect and remember because of these three. 16:34 JK: Okay. And you attended church in Montreal to you said the community was big right? 16:42 VK: Yeah we have like two, three Armenian churches you know and we do not go as often as before, before we used to go every Sunday now we go like once in a while because you know, it is the cold weather, the way of life, the style of life is different now you do not have as much time to do the way you do things before, you know, but we still go for sure. 17:18 JK: And, it was it. Was it important for you to get married or to be married to Arme ̶ Armenian or? 17:27 VK: Because of the history, you know, like, we have to keep alive the history that we went through and remember where we came from? So, it was for me important maybe some people, they are not old, they do not follow as much as some others and everybody is different in it depends on your beliefs, you know, your beliefs if you forget, it is easy to not get married with an Armenian but if you believe that you have to get married with an Armenian you could get married with an Armenian. So it is all depend on you. 18:15 JK: And, was it important for your family as an adult to keep the Armenian traditions? 18:23 VK: Oh yeah for sure. Especially the closer you from the timing ̶ and close to the refugee time it is stronger the beliefs to stay Armenian to keep the tradition to get married to the Armenian. But now with as the generations move further and further, you see more people not marrying the same. 18:58 JK: And, um, finally, how would you identify or what would you say you identify yourself as in like your homeland? Are you a Canadian, Armenian or Armenian, Canadian or Lebanese, for example? How would you describe your identity? 19:20 VK: I am Armenian Canadian, now. I am naturalized Canadian. Also, I am Armenian Canadian. 19:29 JK: And, um finally, do you think it is important for the Armenian culture to have um the church or the language? What do you think is most important that comes with Armenian culture? 19:53 VK: Part of the Armenian history you know, we were very Christian or we believed in it and the religion is number one I would say number one reason being Armenian you know, and then the language for sure. But mostly the most important is religion because we are known to be very religious Christian. So I think as long as we have the religion we will stay Armenian. 20:29 JK: And, um, do you think you would ever want to go to Armenia? 20:35 VK: Yeah, for sure. I sent my daughter last year to Armenia. Me, it is hard a bit harder to go because of the work I cannot go that far and that longer because to go to Armenia still you have to spend like two three weeks a month you know, I do not have I usually do not take vacation. So maybe what I get tired I would love to go and visit my country. 21:05 JK: Okay, great. Thank you. Is there anything else you want to add about the Armenian culture, your family where they grew up? 21:17 VK: Oh, I know is a nice place that I like to be there. But for now, I cannot be. But the future will see. For now, we hope to visit and really see what kind of place was. Well now I cannot say anything. But we hope that one day we visit. 21:45 JK: Okay, great. Thank you so much. 21:48 VK: You are welcome. Thank you. (End of Interview) Biographical Text Varoujan Kabakian is the son of a genocide survivor who immigrated from Turkey to Lebanon in the early 1900s. Varoujan was born and raised in Beirut, Lebanon. Later on, he moved to Montreal, Canada. He continues to live there with his family. Keywords Armenians; Lebanon; Turkey; Beirut; Genocide; Survivors; Religion; Culture; Language; Family. Material Type Sound Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Varoujan Kabakian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7f8c93a4a05f7de1958e6c785cb14bf0.mp3 345454f7c0586e378db147101057e209 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 12/21/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Victoria Kachadourian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:04:48 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Victoria, after graduating high school, began to work for the navy. Later on, she attended night art classes at the Moore institute for Women in Philadelphia. Victoria moved around a bit but finally settled in Binghamton with her husband, Henry."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Victoria, after graduating high school, began to work for the navy. Later on, she attended night art classes at the Moore institute for Women in Philadelphia. Victoria moved around a bit but finally settled in Binghamton with her husband, Henry."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Victoria, after graduating high school, began to work for the navy. Later on, she attended night art classes at the Moore institute for Women in Philadelphia. Victoria moved around a bit but finally settled in Binghamton with her husband, Henry."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Victoria, after graduating high school, began to work for the navy. Later on, she attended night art classes at the Moore institute for Women in Philadelphia. Victoria moved around a bit but finally settled in Binghamton with her husband, Henry."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Victoria, after graduating high school, began to work for the navy. Later on, she attended night art classes at the Moore institute for Women in Philadelphia. Victoria moved around a bit but finally settled in Binghamton with her husband, Henry."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Victoria Satenig [Kerbeckian] Kachadourian was born in College Point, Long Island, New York to Armenian parents who were escaping the genocide. After graduating high school, she began to work for the Navy. Later on, she attended night art classes at the Moore Institute for Women in Philadelphia. Victoria moved around a bit but finally settled in Binghamton with her husband, Henry. She is survived by her two children and five grandchildren. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Turkey; genocide; food; orphanage; community; church; language; Philadelphia; Christmas; Easter; traditions; Armenia; school; "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Turkey; genocide; food; orphanage; community; church; language; Philadelphia; Christmas; Easter; traditions; Armenia; school Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Victoria Satenig Kerbeckian Kachadourian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 21 December 2016 Interview Setting: Binghamton --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   (Start of Interview)   0:06 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with the Binghamton University Special Collection Library Armenian Oral History Project. Today is December 21, 2016. Can you please state your name for the record?   0:21 VK: Victoria Satenig [Kerbeckian] Kachadourian.   0:26 JK: Where were you born?   0:29 VK: College Point, Long Island, New York.   0:32 JK: And when were you born?   0:35 VK: May 24, 1931.   0:41 JK: And who were your parents?   0:46 VK: Sapega and Khoren Kerbeckian.   0:51 JK: And where were they from?   0:55 VK: Arapgir, Turkey.   0:59 JK: Why did they emigrate the USA?   1:02 VK: Because of the Turkish Genocide.   1:07 JK: What were their reasons for coming to America, what circumstances occurred?   1:16 VK: Because of the Turkish Massacre, they were being slaughtered. My mother’s father was slaughtered in front of grandmother’s eyes. And there was some other things that happened that I do not I want to tell you, that were pretty bad.   1:43 JK: Growing up, what was your household like, did you guys speak Armenian or English or both?   1:52 VK: We spoke both languages from the time we were small, you know hearing our parents speak in Armenian, that was how we learned it, from our parents, and it was easier to, you know, converse with them in their own language.   2:17 JK: Did you learn how to write Armenian, or just speak it.   2:21 VK: Just speak it because unfortunately where they taught Armenian in those days was at the church and the church was downtown New York City and it was very difficult for my parents because they had a fruit and vegetable store which they tended and my grandmother took care of us a lot of the times , they sat– so–   2:55 JK: And that was how you communicated with your grandmother, Armenian. Did you attend Armenian language school or bible school?   3:08 VK: Unfortunately it was downtown the church, like I said very difficult for us to, you know, for them to take us.   3:19 JK: Yeah, what was your mother like? Was it like traditional Armenian, what you think of, um stay at home, cook, no?   3:34 VK: She worked with my father, uh they had a fruit and vegetable store and my mother and father worked together and my grandmother was a babysitter.   3:51 JK: Um, for your ancestors in your family, how did they come to U.S.? Through what ports or ships, how did they end up coming here?   4:06 VK: Well, uh, my mother and grandmother went to Cuba and I imagine they came by ship. When they left Turkey, and from there they came to the United– well wait– no they were in Cuba and they stayed there for a while I do not know how long, not too long, from Turkey and uh what happened was, how my mother came to the United States was my father had a friend and he visited him and his wife and his– the friend’s wife– had a picture of my mother and when he saw the picture he wanted to know about her. [laughter] So what happened was he corresponded with her and he went to Cuba and brought her back to the United States. Oh well.   5:39 JK: That is funny. Did they, did they leave Turkey during the genocide or after, your parents?   5:56 VK: I do not really know.   5:59 JK: Was it in between that time period?   6:01 VK: It was, it was like um, mixed up type of thing.   6:09 JK: Yeah.   6:15 VK: Most of the family was gone, my father was gone. It was just my mother and my grandmother who survived in their family, who survived the genocide.   6:35 JK: Now you were saying, you told me that your Grandmother worked in an orphanage?   6:40 VK: She was the head of the orphanage, she became the head of the orphanage in Turkey of–where the children whose parents perished during the genocide. All of the orphans were in this orphanage and Grandma was the head of it, they all looked up to her. That is why in Philadelphia or New York you know there were survivors they all called mom.   7:13 JK: Yeah.   7:14 VK: Even though they had children of their own, she was essentially– when there was a problem in the family like someone was ill or any kind of problem they would call her and right away. If she was in New York she would go to Philadelphia, if she was in Philadelphia she would go to New York. Whoever needed her, she would go.   7:43 JK: Now after the orphanage she moved to Cuba, went to Cuba.   7:47 VK: Yeah, my mother and her went to Cuba.   7:49 JK: And then came to the United States, to Philadelphia or to New York?   7:52 VK: She um, grandma was still in Cuba when my mother, when my father went and brought my mother to the United States, grandma was still in Cuba. Now I do not know if I should tell you this or not but I am going to. I do not know– she had–the way Grandma came to this country–she had a fake marriage with this Armenian guy and it was a marriage but it was never–   8:35 JK: Finished?   8:37 VK: Never um, together in order to come back to the United– to come to the United States she had a fake marriage certificate and that was how she got into the United States. My mother was already here with my father.   8:58 JK: Okay.   8:59 VK: Because he brought her over, he married her in Cuba that was where they got married and when they came here they got married in the Armenian Church so they were married twice. But Grandma, that is how she came and not– [phone rings] She had to improvise, in other words, to get into this country otherwise she could not come in.   9:32 JK: Yeah.   9:32 VK: They had stricter rules for– um– foreigners in those days, now anybody can come in.   9:42 JK: Yeah. How about your father and your Grandfather on your side– on your dad’s side, do you remember?   9:50 VK: I do not remember anything about my Grandfather, um, I do not know anything about him. But I have a great uncle.   10:24 JK: Do you remember how your father came to the United States, or his family?   10:43 VK: Oh, he had brothers here and, through them, I think he came.   10:50 JK: Okay.   10:50 VK: He had family here, he had two brothers Sahag and Philip and I believe that is how he came through. And he lived in Philadelphia with them for a while and then, um, when he got married with my mother then they lived in New York and he had the fruit– started his fruit and Vegetable business.   11:32 JK: Yeah, um, do you have– did when you were growing up– did you have any siblings?   11:46 VK: Him? Me?   11:47 JK: You.   11:48 VK: Yeah I had an older sister, Jervina, she was named Jervina translated into English, Vrejuhi which meant revenge on the Turks that, the Armenians are having children they are not annihilated and a brother, Sarkis.   12:15 JK: And um, what were their ages relative to you?   12:19 VK: My sister was uh three years older and my brother is a year younger than me.   12:27 JK: So you guys all grew up together and you guys lived in New York, right?   12:31 VK: We lived in New York, yeah.   12:34 JK: Was there a large community of Armenians where you lived? Like did you have Armenian friends or family friends?   12:42 VK: Not in the, not at first, not in the area we lived in. College Point is a small town and, uh, no. There was no Armenians in that area. There were Armenians in, um, like, there were little towns like College Point, Fleshing, Long Island that, um, not there. I think there was maybe one other family, I am not sure.   13:21 JK: Um, so did you go to, when you guys lived there, did you guys go to the church at all when you can?   13:29 VK: Rarely.   13:29 JK: Because it was so far?   13:31 VK: You had to take, I think in those days it was trolley cart, nowadays it’d be a bus and then you had to take the elevator or subway. It was like a, really a–   13:44 JK: A commute?   13:45 VK: An hour, almost an hour trip just to get to church.   13:52 JK: Oh my gosh, so would you go on like Holidays or when would you usually go if you did go-like important days?   14:00 VK: Tried to, yeah.   14:04 JK: Yeah. Um, let us see when you guys were in school, when you saw your siblings or whatever did you guys speak Armenian to each other, out and about, or English.   14:23 VK: If we did not want anyone to know what we were saying we speak Armenian [laughs], which was not very nice but [laughs] we did not want them to know.   14:38 JK: Um, a lot of people say um that their parents, like your parents, would speak Turkish if they did not want you to hear what–   14:49 VK: Exactly.   14:52 JK: So that is what your parents did, they spoke Turkish, if they did not want you to know something. Did you pick up on certain things or no?   15:00 VK: No not Turkish, we did not even want to know Turkish.   15:05 JK: Yeah.   15:09 VK: Not they were multi– they picked up English very easily.   15:13 JK: Okay so that is good.   15:17 VK: As a matter of fact my mother went to Flushing High School at night and I would go with her, sometimes, to learn how to read and write.   15:27 JK: Wow.   15:28 VK: Yeah.   15:30 JK: That is nice, so did your mother and father, did they go to high school or college or classes?   15:38 VK: I do not know how, I know my mother was taking some classes, night classes in Flushing High School. I would go with her to learn English. You know, to read and write. 15:52 JK: Yeah.   15:53 VK: Um, but my father was here before her, so he, he knew how to read and write. He knew, um, how to speak English and all that yeah.   16:07 JK: So, he owned the farm stand, the fruit and vegetable stand before your mother came from Cuba?   16:17 VK: That I do not know, that I do not know but I know when, when uh I can remember when I was a kid that he had a store in Flushing– fruit and vegetable store in Flushing and at that time we were living in College Point–   16:46 JK: Yeah.   16:47 VK: And uh um, let us see, then we moved to– from College Point to Flushing so he would not have to commute back and forth.   17:03 JK: Okay now when you were– when you guys were growing up in the area did your dad side have all of his family in the area as well? Or were they all–   17:16 VK: No his two brothers that were in this country lived in Philadelphia.   17:22 JK: Okay.   17:23 VK: One was married and one was single. No, they were both married I think.   17:30 JK: Okay, what about your father’s parents, did they come to America ever or no?   17:37 VK: They were gone.   17:39 JK: They were gone?   17:41 VK: Yep. They were not around.   17:50 JK: Now how did you end up in Binghamton?   18:06 VK: [laughs] Unfortunately, [laughs] the person who came to visit me, when I was living in Philadelphia told my mother someday I am going to marry your daughter and I just looked at him, like who do you think you are. That was how I came to Binghamton because I married a Binghamtonian.   18:35 JK: [Indistinct] Um, how did you, so you went from New York to Philadelphia to Binghamton and then moved around after that, obviously to like–   18:47 VK: Well here yeah, we had different places, in here. We lived Clayton Ave, then Highland Ave, and then came here to Westland Court.   18:59 JK:  Yeah, what was it– when you– when were you– how old were you when you went to Philadelphia or moved there.   19:08 VK: Twenty-seven.   19:08 JK: Twenty-seven? And when you moved there was it with all your family or yourself.   19:14 VK: Just myself.   19:16 JK: And what were you doing there?   19:17 VK: Here?   19:18 JK: In Philadelphia.   19:19 VK: Oh you mean talking about Philadelphia?   19:23 JK: Yeah.   19:23 VK: Oh we moved to Philadelphia, I think I was about um, I thought you were talking about when I came here. I am sorry I misunderstood. Uh, let us see twelve I think, I think I was twelve.   19:38 JK: Oh you were still young and all of your family– now why did you guys move to Philadelphia?   19:45 VK: Because um there were hard times at that time, the depression years and uh my father’s business– he was not making money anymore. So uh we moved to Philadelphia because his two brothers lived here, he had family in Philadelphia. And, uh, that was why he decided to move there. He moved, he went first to you know to establish a place for us to live. And then we all moved.   20:27 JK: Did you like Philadelphia better than New York or vice versa?   20:36 VK: I think that, I think it was a little difficult because it was more sophisticated in New York.   20:46 JK: Yeah.   20:47 VK: You know, even though it was hard sometimes, it was, um, there was everything there and Philadelphia was a little bit quiet– Well where we moved it was like a small town, it was called Wissinoming and it was just like uh a cute little town but it was, it did not have that excitement of New York City because you know once in a while we went to the city as kids, go to Radio City and, you know.   21:19 JK: Yeah, enjoy yourself that is nice. Um when you lived in Philadelphia did you attend Armenian school or church? Did they have a big Armenian community or no? 21:30 VK: Fairly big, but everything was far, everything was far and um it was hard to take, you know like um when they taught the Armenian classes it was at night and uh if my parents were working like during the day if their working and at night it was hard for them to– like it was downtown.   22:03 JK: Yeah.   22:04 VK: You had to take a trolley car, at that time it was a trolley car and then you had to take the elevated in Philadelphia to get downtown and it was not convenient, it was very difficult. Although I wanted to learn, it did not happen.   22:25 JK: Okay, now what were some of the traditions in your household growing up that you can remember, that consisted of Armenian traditions and upbringings?   22:44 VK: [laughs] I got to think about that one, that a little–   22:48 JK: Now just for the record your parents are both Armenian, a hundred percent Armenian correct, yes, okay.   23:01 VK: [speaks Armenian and laughs] Yep, yep I never knew my grandparents, my father’s parents, I never knew them but I had a great uncle and we essentially called him grandfather and, um, that was, that was nice you had relatives at least.   23:29 JK: Yeah. Now for the traditions, do you remember like any favorite ones or– in the house with like food or crafts or anything that you guys did?   23:58 VK: Well, we always had Armenian food.   24:04 JK: Yeah.   24:06 VK: And we wanted to be, you know, sometimes you want to be more Americanized, you know, like a brat [laughs] but um yeah, food was Armenian I miss it all, I miss it all because both my grandma and my mom were good cooks. As a matter of fact, my sister was a good cook too but now Victoria took over [laughs] she was a pretty good cook, I do not know about Armenian food though, um. No I know my grandmother loved to sew, so I learned that from her, you know sewing, I have not done it for a while but I used to sew quite a bit um what else. Drawing, painting you know artwork, I loved that, that is about it.   25:13 JK: Nice, um, what about holidays like Armenian Christmas or Easter would you guys do anything like that, what kind of tradition.   25:23 VK: Yep, made special foods and went to church and it was like a festive day and uh if we were near relatives you know we’d visit each other homes and be together like a family you know if we had cousins or um that type of relatives, we had, wherever we lived we had cousins and aunts and uncles. We would go to each other’s house get together for the Easter or Christmas something like that.   26:05 JK: Nice, now you guys made um [speaking Armenian], right? and did you guys do the eggs or–?   26:16 VK: Yeah.   26:16 JK: And then play the game.   26:17 VK: Yeah [laughs] whoever cracked the egg well then you lose the egg to that person you know it was like a game.   26:27 JK: Yeah, that is so nice, um, when you went to high school or when you were younger you went to school did you guys want to assimilate to the– more of the American culture or did you guys keep your traditions, like you and your brother and sister?   26:48 VK: We kept our traditions.   26:52 JK: Yeah, when you were growing up– 26:54 VK: But when we went to school and you know you were a new student going to that school you just transferred when the teacher asks you about your religion or your background and you tell them, they did not know what we were talking about.   27:14 JK: Oh really.   27:19 VK: Or they sort of looked down at their nose at you, yeah you know you got that, discrimination, not all the schools. When we were younger ̶   27:33 JK: Because you were not certain ̶   27:37 VK: Was not American.   27:40 JK: That is crazy.   27:41 VK: And they never knew what our, some of them did not even know what Armenian was.   27:45 JK: Really?   27:46 VK: Yeah.   27:47 JK: So you were one of the few, or the only ones who were Armenian in your schools right, or did you know any other Armenians.   27:58 VK: No, from the time I was little I cannot remember about other kids you know but um, in my class I was the only– my brother and sister and I would be the only ones.   28:12 JK: Wow.   28:13 VK: In the very beginning because where we lived there were not Armenians near us and um, uh like they would not be in that range for that school so uh you were out of loop. You know what discrimination means.   28:43 JK: Yeah, so do you want to stop here or ̶   28:53 VK: I do not care whatever you want to do.   28:54 JK: Okay.   28:57 VK: There was a transition when we um moved to– right before we moved to Philadelphia, times were very bad, it was the depression time and all that. So uh, when we moved to Philadelphia we went to the area where my father’s two brothers lived. So he bought a house right down the street, a block or two away from where they lived so there was a family connection with his family.   29:40 JK: Oh wow.   29:40 VK: Yeah, so um that was how we moved to Philadelphia because of him going to be near his brothers when things got tough and my great uncle uh was hospitalized and he was dying so– at that time after he passed away my grandmother had to um, get a job and she was working in a– sewing– an Armenian man had like a business where the women did the sewing, I do not know exactly what they were making but she um, she had lived there in College Point for a little while and then uh, she left most of her things in College Point whatever she had and moved to Philadelphia to live with us. So that was what was kind of hard for her but.   31:05 JK: Yeah, do you have any other family members that you know of that are not living in the U.S.?   31:14 VK: Yeah, my grandmother’s brother, well I think he passed away but his son um, they live in France, he has a family and uh his daughter came and stayed with us.   31:36 JK: Oh wow.   31:17 VK: She was really ̶   Verginne, I think um your dad met her, Verginne. And uh yeah her sister and she, she went over when he was dying and then she had a sister too in France, and grandma went over when she was passing away so. She was really something else.   32:06 JK: She went all over the place.   32:13 VK: I do not even know how she did it, I hated traveling, I did not like going on ship and I hate going on a plane. I do not know how she did it. She had, she had some vitality, yeah.   32:24 JK: Did she ever go to Armenia or?   32:27 VK: Armenian, no.   32:29 JK: No, never.   32:30 VK: Not back.   32:31 JK: Never went back.   32:32 VK: No. never went back.   32:33 JK: Have you ever been to Armenia. If you got the chance would you like to go?   32:35 VK: I do not think so.   32:38 JK: No?   32:39 VK: I do not think so, I think uh it is– where they were it was like a killing field and I do not think I would want to– I know it is not like that now but.   32:56 JK: Just the memories.   32:57 VK: Yeah.   32:59 JK: Did they actually go through the march, the– through the desert or no?   33:05 VK: I do not know, my mother did not tell me everything.   33:10 JK: Yeah.   33:10 VK: As a matter of fact, I think some things happened to her that she would not speak of so. When she said Turk it was like ‘Turque’ like–   33:33 JK: Yeah.   33:35 VK: Although she said that if it was not for their neighbor– Turkish neighbor– who hid them from the Turks, they hid them and I do not know they hid them, my mother and grandmother. They saved their lives, that neighbor so that one, one neighbor was a good person.   34:07 JK: So they would come around, the Turkish soldiers and take them?   34:10 VK: Oh yeah just ̶   34:12 JK: That is crazy ̶  oh sorry go head.   34:16 VK: Like I said, you know they beheaded my grandfather in front of my grandmothers so, and they committed atrocities and they come back and try to, you know, but the second time around the neighbor, the Turkish neighbor hid them so they could not you know do more damage than they did in the beginning.   34:42 JK: Were there a lot of Armenians in that area?   34:45 VK: Oh yeah, Arapgir ̶   34:48 JK: So a lot of Armenians and Turkish, right?   34:51 VK: I do not know if, I do not know if it was even or what the ratio was but they lived together, they were neighbors, you know they were friendly but this Atatürk I do not know what his game was just to get rid of all the Armenians or what, I do not know what his aim was to annihilate them but it did not work.   35:21 JK: Exactly.   35:21 VK: It did not work. Like everybody that came here had children.   35:28 JK: Hmm and grew, now um where they grew up, what did– in Turkey, did they– because I know Armenians who grew up in there, their last name like Kerbeckian it means something of their occupation. Do you remember what it means?   35:58 VK: I think it, I do not know if it means snake or not [laughs], I think I am not sure.   36:17 JK: I can ask my mom, because she said Kachadourian which is your name now from grandpa that uh it means to catch or keep the cross, hold on to the Armenian cross.   36:33 VK: Really?   36:34 JK: That was she was saying?   36:36 VK: Oh well ask her what Kerbeckian means.   36:40 JK: Okay, I will write that down. Now do you remember if they had church in Turkey or like churches or anything?   36:52 VK: They had church, yeah.   36:53 JK: They did?   36:54 VK: As far as I know they had church, because I do not think my, my um mother’s, my grandmother’s– I think one of my grandmother’s brothers was a priest yeah.   37:17 JK: Oh wow.   37:21 VK: I think so, yeah they had church.   37:28 JK: Now going back to your life here in America um how– did you go to college or attend night school or anything like that or have a job growing up?   37:44 VK: When I was growing up in– um– I could not get a job, my brother could not get a job because we both look like little kids, you know they just look at you and forget about it. So uh I did not get a job until I was seventeen, after I graduated so at seventeen I got a job for the– with the Bell telephone and then uh after that I started working for the Navy, so. But in the beginning when I was in school I could never get one. My brother could not get one either until he graduated.   38:30 JK: Wow.   38:31 VK: And tried to look a little bit older.   38:38 JK: Um, so did you attend college or–   38:43 VK: Night school.   38:45 JK: And where did you attend night school?   38:49 VK: Uh, what the heck was the name of that school?   38:59 JK: The art school in Philadelphia?   39:03 VK: I went to, one was oh I cannot remember the name of it now, the Moore Institute for Women, I went at night and then I think the other one was a, there is another art school for– I am trying to think of the name of it. I have to look in the directory or something, there is another art school for everybody and then I went there. I went to school five nights a week and then there was a– oh I cannot remember, if you look up the thing about art schools in Philadelphia directory you will probably find out. I went to three different schools five nights a week.   39:53 JK: Wow and you worked as well right.   39:56 VK: Yeah so, I never got home before say nine thirty, ten o’clock at night.   40:03 JK: Oh my goodness.   40:07 VK: I do not know how I did it, three different schools for five nights a week.   40:13 JK: Wow, with your other jobs as well, that is crazy.   40:17 VK: Yeah for quite a few years I did that.   40:20 JK: Very busy.   40:22 VK: Yeah.   40:23 JK: Now any of those schools– were there any Armenians or it was just yourself.   40:32 VK: No, it no Armenians that I knew of, I knew one Armenian girl, Sophie, she went to um, Moore Institute but she went during the day, she won a scholarship.   40:52 JK: Oh wow.   40:54 VK: And the girl who won the scholarship in my class, I could just kill her– she was my friend she was at that time, she was taking day class– she would go to art school on Saturdays so she had more in her portfolio than I did. I only had what I had in high school I did not know you had to add to it and uh which I did not think was fair. And I still do not think it was fair only your work from your high school that you–   41:38 JK: Went to?   41:39 VK: And so she got the scholarship because she had bigger portfolio and uh she said to my art teacher, well who was second, and he saw me standing there but finally he blurted it out.   42:02 JK: You [laughs], rather have not known. That is crazy. Do you guys ever keep in touch out at all when you were– after that or no?   42:08 VK: No right before graduation she moved–her family moved to Florida so we lost complete touch. Yeah, she was my– you– a friend of mine.   42:22 JK: Yeah.   42:23 VK: Like, we both liked the same things like ballet and art and stuff like that so you but um yeah, oh well, who knows.   42:35 JK: Now during your twenties um or like even before that did you guys have any Armenian dances or anything?   42:43 VK: Oh yeah.   42:46 JK: And that is where you communicate with like everyone from the community.   42:51 VK: Yep.   42:51 JK: Were they in Philadelphia or just around Philadelphia or?   42:56 VK: Yeah in um they would have it at a hotel or they would have it in the church hall. It was just you know it was like a getting together with your own age and it was nice.   43:12 JK: Oh that is nice.   43:13 VK: Yeah and you would meet somebody, they would take you home from the dance or they would ask you out for a date or you know. It was, it was nice.   43:27 JK: That is cute. Okay. We can–   43:31 VK: We associated with Armenians.   43:36 JK: Now, growing up, did your parents want you to marry an Armenian, like did you feel pressure?   43:43 VK: No, I did not feel any pressure but if there was, most of the guys that I– well let us see, well there were some guys that outside of the Armenian loop, but um it was in my mind try to marry an Armenian.   44:09 JK: You wanted to keep–   44:10 VK: And there were some nice, really nice guys– Armenians good looking yeah they are all gone now, unbelievable, their all gone every single one. Yeah I remember walking down the hall, my girlfriend says do you know him, I said yeah from church [laughs] and he has gone. “Do you know him” you know like he was the big shot in school, you know I was like a meekly–‘yeah I know him!’   44:54 JK: Of course, that is so funny.   45:04 VK: As a matter of fact, I had a cousin who was really handsome, he was so handsome and he died of cancer– young– and his little brother, before he passed away, his little brother was hit truck and ran into the street to catch a ball, he was around five years old. My aunt was deva– oh devastated, she was devastated, never the same. You never know. A lot of them are gone; a lot of them are gone. Grandpa says how come we are still around [laughs] I said shhh shh.   46:01 JK: [laughs] That is so funny, now when you met your husband, grandpa did you know he was Armenian before you guys communicated and all that?   46:20 VK: Um, I met his brother at a dance.   46:24 JK: Was it an Armenian dance or?   46:28 VK: Armenian dance, yeah, my cousin and I, this fella that I knew, he was an Armenian hairdresser in New York City, I knew him from other dances and when were downstairs at the hotel, at the desk um he said, you know, come to our party, we are having a party in our room, so we said okay because we were together, my cousin and I. We would not go alone, so uh and I knew the guy, he was a nice guy. Um, not one of those you know–   47:06 JK: Trashy.   47:09 VK: So any how we went there, we went up to his– the room and they are having the party and we were in a foyer like you know a hallway, we were sitting down talking to each other, my cousin and I and we did not go into the party so uh. Art comes in opens the door, we need another girl for our party. So I say, I look at my cousin and okay, and he says oh no just one girl and I said I do not think so. [laughs] So then when we were leaving we stopped at the desk, my cousin and I stopped at the desk at the– asked the girl at the counter, what time the bus was coming so we could go to Silver Bay to Toms River and um, who pops up is Art.   48:14 JK: Again, which is your husband’s brother, for the record.   48:19 VK: Yeah, so he wanted to know my name and address, I said this guy does not have a pencil and paper he was not going remember. My name was long, my address was long and I said, I just rattled it off and guess what, the next thing I know your grandfather pops up at our door.   48:48 JK: That is crazy.   48:51 VK: I mean it is like ̶   48:52 JK: How did he remember it, oh my gosh?   48:54 VK: I do not know how he remembered but he remembered it because. [laughs] So any how um I cannot remember if he called beforehand or if he just popped up in his uniform, he was in the Air Force.   49:15 JK: And this was in Silver Bay?   49:17 VK: Your grandfather and oh my mother and grandmother– and I say, I said to myself who the hell does this guy think he is. [laughs] I did not want anything to do with him. [speaks Armenian] Yeah so what, who cares. [laughs] And he gets himself stationed in New Jersey from uh where was he was he–   49:49 JK: In Silver Bay?   49:50 VK: He was in Texas or where he was some place, I cannot remember or down south someplace– the air base– gets himself stationed in New Jersey [laughs] and that was the beginning of– but I just– I did not think much of it when I– because I thought ‘he is too cocky, he too sure of himself, he is too– you know– who does he think he is?’   50:22 JK: He is a hot shot.   50:24 VK: Yeah and grandma– my mom– oh [speaks in Armenian] [laughs] so we just started writing to each other, you know, just casual letters. And when he got stationed in Jersey, like he would tell me when he had time off or something and he– we would go to Jersey and stay at the house. It was just getting to know each other. But he was so sure of himself and I– that is what I did not like. [laughter]   51:06 JK: That is so funny.   51:08 VK: Oh we went to the supermarket yesterday– every place we stopped at, you know, that we had to do business with, he had the people in stitches and I am just rolling my eyes.   51:27 JK: Nothing has changed.   51:33 VK: No! I am just–   51:39 JK: Too funny. I cannot believe he went to New Jersey, chased you down.   51:49 VK: Oh, boy! Yeah he, he asked me to marry him, I think, was it the second time we met? I think so–   52:07 JK: You can ask grandpa. The second, the second time you met, he asked you to marry him? Oh my goodness.   52:15 VK: I think so.   52:16 JK: Did–what did you say?   52:24 VK: His mother wanted him to marry an Armenian girl, but– oh she was a witch.   52:28 JK: She was?   52:28 VK: She hated– she bought this house, or she had him buy this house. It was like a rat trap. It was awful, it was filthy, I mean that place was a nightmare. And she had me scrubbing around the floors and all, I almost lost–   52:53 JK: Like Cinderella?   52:53 VK: I almost lost Corrine.   53:01 JK: Oh my god. When you were pregnant?   53:05 VK: She called me lazy so my grandmother was with me at that time and she– we went to the house to the house to clean up because she kept calling me lazy and I did not do anything so in order to pacify this woman, I started getting– scoop down– scooch down and started rubbing the baseboards because it was cat pee all over the place. And that night, her blood was all over the sheets and she said ‘look what you did to my’–it was her fault because she was calling me lazy. She was a nightmare. I do not know why she never liked me.   54:08 JK: That is terrible!   54:09 VK: Never. Never said a kind word.   54:14 JK: Aw, I am sorry. Terrible.   54:16 VK: But he idolizes her.   54:25 JK: But he– she wanted grandpa, your husband, to marry Armenian for sure?   54:30 VK: For sure.   54:33 JK: So even all his– all of his siblings and everything like that, all Armenian? Yeah? Crazy.   54:43 VK: No, Louise married a Greek, Carl married an odar [stranger, foreigner in Armenian], Oslin married an odar, Art was the only one who married an– Adrian’s not full blooded Armenian, I think her– she is half and half.   55:15 JK: Because I know her, her mother, she ex–went through the Armenian genocide like your family. And she was, remember how she was over one hundred years old and they could not find her birth certificate because they had to leave everything and they did not know how old she was.   55:39 VK: Oh my god!   55:40 JK: Yeah, isn’t that crazy? Now did your family have to leave everything behind when they went to Cuba? Yeah?   55:47 VK: As a matter of fact, when we moved to Philadelphia we left everything behind.   55:54 JK: Really?   55:54 VK: Yeah and when we moved– before we went to Philadelphia from Flushing, we moved to Long Island City into an apartment building and we had to leave everything behind then too.   56:14 JK: Wow.   56:14 VK: Yeah. So we– you know, everything was starting from scratch.   56:25 JK: Do you guys have any pictures or passports or anything like that from Turkey or– that you can remember like birth certificates or all that is–   56:41 VK: No birth certificate or something like that, no. I do not know if there is anything from Turkey or not, I do not think so. There was a fire, a lot of things were destroyed in the fire. So, that was at the apartment in Philadelphia.   57:09 JK: Yeah. Do you think grandpa has anything from–   57:17 VK: He might, I do not know. He might because they still have the old house and whatever Louise did not take out of there that was important, you know, it would still be there.   57:32 JK: Yeah. So when you were in– la– one of the last questions–so when you were in Silver Bay in Toms River, New Jersey, did you live there like during different periods of time or just like for the summer or–?   57:54 VK: Mostly it is the summer or mostly if it is in the like offseason it is just to go and make sure everything is working in the house to adjust the heat and everything else and the boats and whatever, make sure everything is okay.   58:17 JK: And when you guys lived there did you guys– did they have any Armenian churches or anything like that?   58:23 VK: Yeah there was an Armenian church in New Jersey.   58:27 JK: Did you guys attend that when you could?   58:28 VK: Yeah. If we were– If we get up early enough, [laughs] getting there on a Saturday night or Saturday afternoon.   58:44 JK: Did you like attending Armenian Church when you were little? Did you like attending church?   58:50 VK: Yeah.   58:50 JK: Yeah?   58:51 VK: Yeah.   58:51 JK: Were there little kids your age or people your age?   58:54 VK: Yeah, in Philadelphia, yeah.   58:58 JK: Oh that is nice.   59:00 VK: Yeah, Philadelphia, let us see– get dressed up and–   59:07 JK: Yeah, get all ready.   59:09 VK: Yeah, I liked going to church. It was hard, though, you know, it is not like here where you could just–   59:16 JK: In Binghamton, yeah, you drive.   59:18 VK: Yeah. It was– you had– and then Sunday it was hard because like the busses and things did not run like they would during the week where people always were going to work or what and they had more of a schedule. Unless you had somebody to drive you, because at that time we did not have a car. Only when my brother, my father bought the car, but he never drove the car. My brother drove– waited until he was old enough to drive. [laughter]   59:59 JK: Did you ask your brother to take you to all these places like, like he was your chauffeur at all or no?   1:00:19 VK: No. Once in a while, very rarely. Because I would go with my girlfriend or my cousin or something like that. Yeah sometimes, he would just drop us off or sometimes, yeah, sometimes he would go with us.   1:00:25 JK: Well that is nice. Okay, anything you would like to add before I finish?   1:00:34 VK: It has been a long journey, a real long journey. You know, there is a saying [speaks Armenian] ‘Where were we, where are we now?’   1:00:36 JK: Yeah. [laughter]   1:00:51 VK: I like the sayings the Armenians have.   1:00:55 JK: Very clever.   1:00:57 VK: Yeah. We were just two people, now we have got a big family.   1:01:00 JK: Yeah, it is so nice.   1:01:08 VK: We are so lucky to have your mom, she is a good person.   1:01:14 JK: That is funny, Uncle Art, you know how he, he set you up with grandpa, he– they were in an Armenian church in New Jersey, and then he set your son up, my dad with my mom, Nora.   1:01:33 VK: Wow. [laughs]   1:01:37 JK: I think, because they were all sitting–   1:01:38 VK: He is a matchmaker!   1:01:42 JK: I know. I think they were sitting at different tables and they– Uncle Art and your son, my dad, went over and sat with them because he wanted to– I think that was how– I think that was what happened, I have to ask.   1:02:05 VK: It is great! Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. He was sitting back in bin like a godfather. Oh boy.   1:02:13 JK: It is crazy.   1:02:16 VK: Oh, there was a time when– there was a time in our marriage where it almost–   1:02:24 JK: Really?   1:02:24 VK: Because of her ̶   1:02:27 JK: Oh no.   1:02:27 VK: Because of– and the weeds.   1:02:33 JK: Oh yeah.   1:02:34 VK: Oh and you know my grandmother would say [speaks Armenian] ‘she is crazy, do not pay any attention to her.’   1:02:43 JK: Exactly, exactly.   1:02:50 VK: Yeah.   1:02:50 JK: Okay, well I have to later– sometime later we will interview you for– because I have to do more about your–   1:02:59 VK: Fun! I enjoyed them, all of them were– just so cute together. And you could not part them. You could not part those two. Everything they did, they did together. They were the– you know the best kids, I am telling you, they were so good. I do not know what happened to them! [laughs] Do not tell them that! Yeah, that– you know I never thought that– they were just, they got along with each other and whatever she did, he followed, you know, where she went, he would follow and it was great. I said to my husband, I said– grandpa– I said you know I said we were very fortunate, the two of them. She went to college, he goes– same place! And then he goes to Syracuse. When she– it was, I do not know, it was good. I just wish she did not live so far.   1:04:22 JK: I know Michigan.   1:04:24 VK: Yeah. I hate driving out there, it is a long drive, and I hate flying out there. I do not like either one. And she wanted to come for Christmas but I said you were already here, you know, and then to come again I–   (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Victoria Kachadourian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ce216f568220bbdbb9c22697c88fa278.mp3 01e100d79dd202d85c178761aa2af742 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 4/25/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Virginia Terell Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 53:19 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Virgina was born in Binghamton to first-generation Armenian/Turkish parents who came to the United States to escape the genocide. As a child, she was involved in the local Armenian community and continued to do so as she reached adulthood. Later on, she became an active member in the Women's Guild at her Church. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":31489,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11,"17":0}">Virginia was born in Binghamton to first-generation Armenian parents who came to the United States to escape the genocide. As a child, she was involved in the local Armenian community and continued to do so as she reached adulthood. Later on, she became an active member of the Women's Guild at her Church. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Binghamton; Armenia; genocide; Greel; Chruch; traditions; community; war; generation; Women's Guild; food"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Binghamton; Armenia; genocide; Greel; Chruch; traditions; community; war; generation; Women's Guild; food Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Virginia Terrell Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 25 April 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:03 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s special collection library, Armenian Oral History Project. Today is April twenty-fifth, two-twenty seventeen. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:16 VT: My name is Virginia. Last name is Terrell. T, as in Thomas, E-R-R-E-L-L. My maiden name, is a true Armenian name Mangurian which is spelled M-A-N-G-U-R-I-A-N. The daughter of Robert and Marcy Mangurian. 0:39 JK: Thank you. And where were you born? 0:42 VT: Here in the city of Binghamton, New York at Lourdes Hospital. 0:46 JK: And were your parents born in the United States or– 0:51 VT: No. My dad was in–oh– Hadjin [Haçin in Turkish], Armenia. And my mo– and he was born in 1905. No, that was my mother, he was 1889, (18)88 or (18)89. Something like that. My mother was born in Izmir, Turkey. And she was born in 1905. 1:16 JK: And what were– what was the reasoning for coming to the United States? 1:23 VT: Truthfully, I was only eleven years old when my dad died and my brother was only thirteen so I really cannot answer that other than just from what I heard from a couple stories from my mother, okay, after my dad died, okay, that they probably were escaping the genocide. Okay? I mean, that is all I can say, you know? Because, now do you want me to go into the story of the genocide? Okay, how we came–my parents never would talk about it to this day, I never heard my mother talk about my immediate grandparents, my mother’s mother and dad, nothing, not a word. Okay, the same thing with my father other than I–we were able to find out what their names were okay, my dad’s mother was a Sonalian okay, Katherine Sonalian and my–my grandfather, my father’s father was very (indistinct) Armenian, okay and I am sure that is why my brother was named Garry. Later on and my mother only had the one sister, there was just the two of them, but she always talked about her grandmother and she always had the fear of being blind because my grandmother, now I am assuming it was my mother’s, mother’s mother, you know, but do not ask me about her name or anything she would just say she was totally blind and she raised me so I do not know the story behind that, she just would not talk about it. But with my dad when I was born, and I was brought home from Lourdes hospital and I was ba–I am assuming that maybe it was after I was baptized and I was brought home from the hospital and I know I was baptized here locally in the Armenian Church here on Corbett Ave as Repega. Now I do not know how you say that in Armenian to be truthfully I do not know. But I do have the solution that, you know, birth certificates and everything with the Armenian priest that I was bap– I am sure they got re– in fact, I do not know if they have got records of that in the Armenian Church. Ralph had talked about– do they have a record of all the families actually were– 3:46 JK: Maybe, I am not sure. 3:48 VT: I do not– I have never seen it. So I do not know if they ever tried to keep records to be truthful with you. But I, I apparently was baptized Repega Mangur–Mangurian and my mother always said that this is why I thought I was baptized Virginia– no– you were baptized Rebecca then I found the paper she gave me, okay. She said that when I was brought home my father would hold on to me he would do nothing but cry because he would think about his younger sister you know that was murdered and raped by the Ottoman Turks. 4:25 JK: And this is as they were trying to leave? 4:29 VT: I am assuming, I do not know when he came to this country I have got to dig out some papers. I got a whole big box that my brother gave me which maybe he had all the records I do not know. Okay. But because I know Gary gave me their– they got married in 1926 with my mother was a fixed marriage in Connecticut. Because how my mother got here is by my uncle in Connecticut went back to Europe to get a wife and I guess it was arranged for him to have the oldest sister, which was my aunt Mary, was eighteen and my mother was sixteen. And – but the only way he could get married was he had to bring my mother. And, so she came over and she lived with them in Connecticut and somehow or other, my Uncle Harry knew about my dad [laughs] because they got married at [inaudible] It was all– you know they were all pre-arranged. Now how they even ended up in Binghamton, my dad was here he was already established so I think in those cases I think the family– they came. In fact we even talked about it now with all this immigration thing. Do you think they came to the United States– we do not know? But you know I think in those days a lot of uh just talking to some other Armenians their names were changed because they did not even know how to spell their last names okay we got my mother’s Dokmejian but we have gotten it spelled two different ways, you know. So, and I am sure you know I, uh, I know I spoke to her family, their, their name I do not want to put it on there because I uh there is [inaudible] her dad and being an ownership but that that that is not an Armenian name so it was, uh, large, uh, longer and they shortened it and oh nobody knows. Yeah, yeah. So, uh, and–and you just assumed it but it has the I-A-N that is definitely an Armenian name. [laughs] [inaudible] But, uh, so that was the story of that but my dad so we just assuming he saw a lot and he fled over here. 6:39 JK: And he never said anything. 6:40 VT: Never spoke. He never– none of them did. Not one of them. Okay, I do not ever hear them make– you know, talk about it or any– you know. No. You know, I think later in life I think we would have liked to pump I think my brother was [inaudible] very more Armenian than I am to be truth with you, okay. You know because he collected a lot of Armenian things. In fact, he donated a great big Armenian picture it is in the church hall. That frame, I loved the frame more than I liked the picture. Because I do not understand the picture but you know. Oh my brother you know my brother used to be a funny [inaudible] when we were kids, yeah. You know, so you know, later in life you break away from that, you know. And uh, uh, unfortunately, you know, but you know and I am not saying you know down deep in my heart I, I am an Armenian. I mean otherwise I would not even. I, I need to see that early because I wanted, I thought maybe I could get some information about it. Everything I saw there in the books that I read that I got home, well, they are, they are, they are more thorough than the movie. The movie very tried to make it [inaudible] you know, not as bad, but– 7:52 JK: –It is harsh. 7:53 VT: I, I, I got a little emotional you know because I got thinking did they go through all that, you know, because I remember my mother saying now that started basically in casto [inaudible] in the movie, 1914 for the actual slaughtering of the Armenians was 1915. They did kill some but it did not start in past [inaudible] where they were– 8:16 JK: I believe it did, it was how it was depicted in the movie. 8:20 VT: Oh. 8:20 JK: Oh, but I believe it did. They started killing the, um, the researchers and like doctors and uh intel–more intelligent. 8:33 VT: –More intelligent Armenians. 8:34 JK: Yeah, and then it started spreading to uh other parts of Turkey and then. 8:40 VT: It moved to, to little villages. And actually that is where they start with that young couple, you know. 8:45 JK: Is that where your family is– your parents are from little villages? 8:49 VT: I am assuming they were little village you know, I do not know how big Izmir was in those days or Hadjin? 8:57 JK: So they never talked about how, like growing up as a child or, nothing? Wow. 9:03 VT: But they must have known one another because the Kradjians were Hadjinsi, [inaudible] were Hadjinsi–The Rejebians were Hadjinsi, [inaudible]. I do not know if [inaudible] were but Mr.[inaudible] was Hadjinsi. And that is maybe–maybe that is how they moved them here. Leave their, their cities and you know, because my father was a Hadjinsi, okay, and that night I cannot remember what the Kachadourians were. If they were Armenian. 9:33 JK: There is Hadjinsi and Kharputian. 9:36 VT: Okay, okay. 9:38 JK: I ̶ there is two things I do not know. 9:40 VT: Now I know Adrian’s mother I found out was from Izmir Turkey. Where my mother was from. 9:47 JK: Oh, that is interesting. 9:49 VT: Yeah, we found that out later on when I think it was when, well after they were married. Adrian and, and Art. But I guess Adrian brought her mother to Binghamton there later in life. And come to find out okay, now she was like she probably could tell you a lot. 10:03 JK: Oh, yeah. 10:04 VT: Yeah. But how I found out about my mother is, uh, and I was out of high school, I was working at the bank. I was not working at Links. My first job was in the middle of the teller at our school. And so that has got to be in the (19)50s. And, uh, my brother got married. So it is just me, mom, the house the [inaudible] Street and my mother was taking a bath, you know, and she was very independent, you know, independent and that, that I know that when she was calling me, and she always had the accent, “Jenny”. You know like that. You know, and I went, I said “What is wrong mom?” She said I cannot, my back is itchy at one spot and I cannot seem to get to get the wash cloth on it and I need help. And when I try to move my arms, my arms are aching, okay. So I went in there and I saw the scar just below her shoulder. Okay. And I thought, mom, what did you do? Did you [inaudible], when did you get hurt you know? And she just, you know very nicely. She has told me it is a bombshell. I said is a what? You know. And that was when she told me. She and I said was does in Europe, the Turks. And I saw I said, I do not want to say it too loud. Okay. And she says no. And she told me it was English to British I said the British. What were you– why? She says I was with my grandmother okay. And I was taking care of– because she was totally blind in the cemetery hiding. Okay, but English– she said no– it was not their fault; they were coming to help us. And they were bombing. 11:46 JK: This is in Turkey or– 11:49 VT: It probably Izmir– I am assuming, I am assuming it would be in Izmir, Turkey. Yeah, Turkey. Right. Yeah. Okay, because that was where she was from. Okay, she, she's never been to Hadjin or anything. She met my father through my uncle Larry. [laughs] So that is how that, you know. And then she told me. You know. And she told oh me before that she, uh, was going to school in Izmir. Okay. And that one morn– I think I told you that, we filmed that– but one morning she got up and she told her grandmother, I do not want to go to school. And she fought and she got whipped. Because grandma got mad at her and said, you are going to go to school and she starts hitting her with–God– I do not know, whatever. You know, and she cried? She said no, no, no, and she just would not go. And I guess that was where she ended up in the cemetery but could not find the school that round. But she did not tell me if it was from–it was war. Because my mother later and he had a family that, well in fact, one son is, uh, is very close friends of Ara Kradjian and Naima. Helped Naima in her election. There was an Arzonian boy that used to live on Jefferson Avenue. And they were very close to my parents– well they were like maybe from here and other half a block away. Okay. And they were great. They had the two sons. And I used to go up there. I was a little pesky neighbor kid. Okay. But they took care of me. I mean they were, you know, fun. Okay. And the youngest son, you know he has been raised up, probably got kids, he is full grown now. But the young fellow, Jack was his name, we used to have a round porch of the [inaudible] Street and he would come down call my mother into everybody comes in an aunt, an uncle, on every spec, right? That was how I was brought up with all the Armenians whether we were related or not. Yeah, you are Auntie George, Auntie Alice, Auntie whatever okay? And, uh, Jack could not wait to get into the service. He went in the Air Force and my mother used to get mad at–“why?”–in her broken English. It is war is hell. No, you do not go. You do not know what it is, it is not all beautiful and all– why do these young men want to go to war? They do not realize. My mother used to say this since she would– saw the fear. Because that is all I got out of– she says they think it is all fun and joy. She says, she says they do not realize and this is what my mother used to say this is– what the United States need is to have a bomb hit here then they will know. It is terrible. They do not, they do not understand how. Yeah, yeah, that was– in her broken way you are trying to explain. Well he got killed. He got killed in another way. [Indistinct] She– they– the Armenians they sold their house they moved. Yeah. So I feel the young boy that is full grown now. He must have gone through hell. This fear– bomb went over there. Some of the other ladies try to go over there to help and she did not like nobody– she just, you know [indistinct]. 14:58 JK: Yeah. 14:58 VT: So I mean, these are memories so terribly horrible. Yeah. Horrible, horrible. So I am, I am sure my parents saw enough but they did not talk about it. Yeah, you know. 15:10 JK: It is interesting. Some people are like that they do not talk about it and then others, feel the need to share. 15:16 VT: I think now, it is just the advice it gave me on life like, like the piece of release, these things, okay? I was a little surprised. I spoke to Henry about telling the– I had you mixed up you were his daughter, you know that. He went out laughing over, okay. No, that is my granddaughter. You know, you know. And so he was proud that you were doing it. You know, I said well did not she–you probably should be–you know everything Henry of all the family. So you might even know more about my parents that I ever would have known. Yeah. But your parents probably I have known your, your grandparent you know, your mom and dad especially your mom. She– that woman was smart. Yeah, basically, you know, she is the Empire. You know that, right? I will never forget when she passed away. They had a luncheon at the church. And, it was your dad that got up and spoke. I am pretty sure it was, yeah, because your dad, graduated with honors from BU [Binghamton University] too, he was high in his class. I remember going to that graduation because the, um, there was another. This is Josie Philips’ kid that graduated from there. That is why we went because of and, and, and young, uh, your dad was the number one in the class. 16:34 JK: Wow. 16:34 VT: Okay, I thought, what an honor, you know, and that was how many years ago– oh my God, I was not married then. You know, it has got to be way back in the (19)50s. Right, early (19)50s. No, maybe in the (19)40s. How old is your dad? 16:47 JK: Oh, no. My dad was born in 1964. 16:52 VT: Oh, (19)64. So I was not– oh I was married then. Okay, okay I am going to study what Phil. Yeah, I got married in (19)67. I would have never got married if I did not meet Phil. Well, then I was responsible for taking care of my mother, you know. 17:10 JK: Did going back to there a time in Arme–or Turkey in Armenia. I know, you did not say they did not tell much. But do they speak Armenian growing up– 17:20 VT: My, my mother spoke Armenian, Greek, Turkish, French. 17:30 JK: Wow and how did she learn all these? 17:32 VT: Because she said, you had– because you were surrounded by those people. You know, the population was like that. Okay. Because we have a Greek restaurant, The Olympia, here on Chenango Street. My mother used to take me to the Olympia because she got so– the first time we went there she found out it was a Greek– she did not know you know and we went in there and she got the, you know, and waitresses were our boss. He was, he was Greek so she– he so my mother understood I want to go to the Greek restaurant because I get she was talking to him in Greek. Yeah, yeah. Our foods are very familiar too, you know? Oh Yes. Yes. Now my dad, I could not tell you–the only thing I could tell you about [laughs] my dad was a shoe man he had his own shop there on Main Street. Okay, which everybody knows. But he, he– my dad was very Americanized, too. Okay. But– 18:29 JK: After he came– 18:30 VT: Yeah, yeah, even when I was a little girl, I used to go with my mother. We would come downtown shopping or something and we always stop at the store, you know, and my dad would always, you know, tease me whatever, you know. Yeah. But my dad was very popular with the police people. Because they used to walk the beat and everything. So my dad always used to call him nothing but eşşek, which is jackass, right? Right? 18:57 JK: Yeah. 18:58 VT: Okay. Meanwhile, my dad, Mr. R G bought property up by Conklin, by the river, you know, they had their little they, they were in a full cottage they were– I could open type count like the canopy like you know with the picnic tables and you know their crappy was right next to our set and we always have parties like you won't believe like the Armenians whoever they wanted would come up there you know? Yeah, he had that for a long time until after dad died and it got the point Ari and I were getting too big for it, you know? Well I, I got– we used to swim in the river like crazy. That was where I learned how to swim until– the one time when I saw when a garter snake, I mean to me was a snake. I do not care what type it will come out of the water. I remember I would have nothing to do [laughs] with, with the river. I absolutely stayed away from the Susquehanna River. [laughs] Any algae which is just, you know all that. And, uh, what I was leading to– oh god– there was a couple Armenian families on Conklin Avenue too well anyway, that one day it was a Saturday– the Livings [inaudible] went up there for the weekends. Because it was not that far of a ride five, six miles, whatever. Okay. Oh, right here at the library. Right across the street from the library. And here, one of the stores probably were in there– used to be the old Giant market. Okay. And we were coming down Court Street to, to go down to Conklin. Okay. My mother pulled right from the store. Okay, motorcycle cop. We used to have motorcycle cops. Okay. And like I said, I am still eleven, twelve right? It was after my dad died. Okay, so I probably was around twelve or maybe the same year, I do not know. But I was small. My mother says we forgot the bread. Got to get the bread. So she pulled out. My mother had no, no license, no insurance. We found that later in life. She had broken English. Now she became a U.S. citizen. I could– I, I saw her– I, I got her papers I, I am pretty sure they were in that box, I probably should dig them out, maybe the dates would be better. I should have thought of that. I did not– Okay, well all I know is the cop came, you know? And mom rolled the window down because he tapped and he was– and he says “Ma'am, you cannot, cannot park here. It is illegal”. And my mother was trying– officer, I just need– I want my daughter go and get a loaf of bread. I need bread. I know it was bread. I always remember that. Yeah, and, “no got to move, got to move.” Okay. And I am sitting there very quiet because mom did not give me the money. You know, she had not given me the money and so he says no just move, move. Yeah. And my mother said turn around. She was handing me, the cop started to get his motorcycle going and the weather I cannot remember that but she turned around she still– and turns around she says “here go get the bread.” Okay. Oh no, do not get the bread and she ̶ I got to move, you know? And she is– he is definitely an eşşek, like that, you know? And I am giggling with the, the police officer turned right around the window was down. Says “Ma'am, what did you just say?” You know, and my mother says, well, I, uh, I spoke Ar– I do not know what she– I do not think she said Armenian she just said eşşek, yeah, he says there was only one person used to call me that– you are not Mrs. Mangurian, are you? Bob's wife, Bob Mangurian, you know? And my mother said well yes, oh what a wonderful guy he always called eşşek, okay and he says so he turn around he says he told me young, youngster, go get go get the bread for your mom. Okay? He says you get the bread stay–you are okay. Okay. He told my mother that he was sorry about my dad. You know, yeah and he took off. My mother turned around she was handing me the money she says, he is an eşşek. I will always remember that I love telling a story because it is so true. That she just thought, he, he was stupid in other words. 23:00 JK: He does not even know what it is, does he? That is funny, I am glad you said that. Um, so, how did–do– you do you know from your mom's side how they came to the United States? 23:10 VT: They came because of my Uncle Harry. 23:13 JK: Oh okay– 23:14 VT: He went over to get a life. And the only understanding he had to take my mother. 23:19 JK: And what about your father? Nothing? 23:22 VT: I do not know how he got here. 23:24 JK: Did you know if he had any siblings or anything? 23:27 VT: My si–oh my–his sister. My–my Uncle [inaudible] went to California. I always felt great because I had an Uncle Sam. They used to call him Sam you know. 23:39 JK: That is funny. 23:40 VT: Yeah. Yeah. And he sort of disowned me when I married the Irishman [laughs]. I just thought I would throw that in. I do not want that on that though. You just shut that off. Oh gee, you got to scratch, you can scratch some of that off. Okay. Yeah, you got to do that. [laughs] 23:56 JK: I will. Um, also, when you were– when growing up, did you– were you Americanized or more like Armenian? 24:04 VT: Oh no, no. I was, but not my brother and Harry Kradjians, they were very close do not ask Kradjians and my, my dad do not tell me how I, I have no idea– that is because they are probably Hadjinsis right? And we all lived down to a side right so we went to– it was called Little Avenue it is Horace Mann right now they are on the west side okay there by Rec Park and we because we,we lived right through the main entrance to the Rec Park so we just played in it going to school and coming back. Okay, so what had happened– this is Parsons from the Parsons funeral home look we were all the Armenians go. Yeah. My mother did not go there. My mother did not like Parsons at all. She says you are dead already but they are making you look deader, deader, deader, deader. She just– that– it is funny how nationalities were going to certain. You know my mother did like the old funeral home was better. They were across the street further down by Catholics Chapel down in that area. Okay, so Mrs. Parsons was the kindergarten teacher, Harry Kradjians and my brother did not speak English. Armenian. They always disrupted the class. 25:20 JK: They did? 25:21 VT: Yeah, they would be talking to each other and you know–so she ended up having the school call the parents. So my dad and Arthur Kradjians. Harry's father, Deron’s father, it was that same family– went to see Mrs. Parsons with the principal. And they got told that they are in this country and they have to teach the kids English. They were disrupting the class and they do not do this. You know, and they, they were– Mrs. Parsons was able to get somebody to teach them a little bit of English, okay? 25:57 JK: So they did not know any English? 26:00 VT: I think partly if they did it was very, very little but they– boys did nothing but talk Armenian all the time in class. 26:05 JK: This is your older brother? 26:07 VT: Perry’s the one that just died. 26:11 JK: Or he went away– he just– yeah he just passed away. I went to the fu–yes to the wake at Parsons. Okay? And, uh, yeah because Arthur Kradjian is their cousin’s Arthur’s father's cous–Kradjian Heigwick where Perry’s–uh, parents was Uncle Arthur and, uh, Esquir or whatever her name was, it was a funny name, okay. Alright now they worked on Highland Avenue. Okay, where Kradjians hit– 26:49 JK: Um, going back to your family life, uh, when you were younger. So were you more– do you think you were more Americanized or did you learn Armenian or–? 26:59 VT: I could never speech because I had a speech problem my brother was very good–fluent with it. 27:04 JK: Did you learn Armenian first or? 27:07 VT: I think we both did because that was all they talked about was Armenian. But I used to get mad later on after my dad died. We, we– Gary and I would get laughing because we had the one phone it was always down by the stand as we had– the upstairs, okay, by the window there. And my mother would be talking to somebody and you could understand the Ar ̶ I could understand Armenian, but I cannot speak it. My brother was both. We probably were not into it that heavy because we left. You know what I am saying? But after– not left the church but just left to social and about learning. So– and my mother never pushed on it. Later on, she did not. She was very Americanized, because her true friends were the neighbors. Oh, they were so good to my mother. You have no idea. The biggest mistake we did with my mother, start having problems health wise. And at that time we had doctors that came to the house. Dr. Nikibi lived right next to the Parsons funeral home, the original one. Okay, which was across the opposite way from where they–and my mother, uh, did the Armenian [speaks in Armenian] give me a moment. This happens to me and my doctor says it is normal. I do not think it is normal. 28:22 JK: It happens to me too do not worry. 28:24 VT: Oh, yeah, you people everybody was saying that and that should not be. Yes. Okay. But my, my brother was good because he was, he was upon the artery. He understood it more you know, I, I got so– I knew, you know, I could follow everything you know, I know what I love about the Armenian’s confessions compared– that is the only thing– the difference between the Catholic Church and the Armenian Church everything is exactly the same okay. I like Chris– maybe because our church is so small but when you have confession, he does it right there at the altar, right? He will say whoever wants to come up for communion have to come up for confession. And you have come up whoever wants– in the Armenian Church they kneel in front of the altar. And he says a prayer in Armenian right? Then he has to say I will pray for you to actually– your confession directly to God. And then you can have communion with the Catholic Church they do not do that. You go in and you talk to the priest privately in the little cubbyhole. Now sometimes when they like for Easter and everything, they twenty people– it is a muss at Easter time– they feel once a year, you know. But there were people that go every week. How can you confess on a weekly basis? I cannot remember the last time with confession. Probably before we–well you know, to get married I had to confess. What do I have to confess about? I fell in love with my future husband? But we did not live together [laughs] you know? I mean, it is stupid. I mean, you know, I do not feel I have done anything that drastically. You know. And I–and I think it is lenient, more lenient today because you see– I do not see people. It is the old timers that go to confession, I am an old timer but not– my generation was not like that. 30:11 JK: Yeah. 30:12 VT: So that is the only thing different with the Armenian Church and the, uh, Catholic Church. 30:19 JK: Did, uh, growing up, did you guys have Armenian food or any– 30:23 VT: –Oh my god definitely! I still do. That is what– 30:25 JK: Can you give any examples? 30:27 VT: That is, that is what I miss to no end. Now we used to have cooking classes at the Armenian Church. Oh, really? Yeah. And that dissolved. Well right now we were all old. Mardirossian. You know, Manish Oh my god. She's what? Ninety somewhat years old. She is, is she still driving? 30:42 JK: I have no idea. 30:43 VT: Louise keeps telling me she is still driving. I said I cannot believe that, at that old. She has got that car that does not even take, uh, gas. What does it take? It is that special type of gas. It is an old fashioned car. 30:54 JK: I have no idea. 30:55 VT: Oh god that car is probably worth money. It is an antique. [laughs] like her. She is the most sweetest–she, she knows her cooking. Yeah. Hey, I worked my fanny off at that church we used to make the Armenian baklava. The, uh, well there is a– the other one, the roll. I call all baklava–there is a different name for that. Okay. And we, we– that was our biggest fundraiser for women’s guild. 31:21 JK: Oh wow. 31:22 VT: Yeah, I, I, I know I worked my ass on that. Okay. But I used to get so mad and, uh, Dr. Garabedian, what is his name? Vahe ̶ was chairman of the Armenian Church, okay. Under– when I was person of women’s guild. Or chairperson– I do not think we called that– chairperson, okay. And he would tell me–he would always put in a big order because he will always give it to a lot of good American friends. Do you think– I used to fight this, go out and buy– go to Maine, spend ten, fifteen six–twenty bucks and get the covers, you know to put them in nicely in there. I mean these are cheap. 32:12 JK: That is funny. 32:14 VT: Uh, no, it is not funny. It is, it is disgusting. Yeah. Okay, I used to get so mad over there. My god, come on! You know? You know? So I used to– he would tell me he has said is there any way you could do, you know. I said do not worry about it, I said, I buy my own and I would take them in and do nice little you know. You know, come on, you know. I mean we, we want to try to and I, I did the same thing with me I always brought– my brother. I always, you know, you know a lot people did not want to syrup on, they liked to have it separated. You know, there's nothing wrong. Well, a little– bring a jar. 32:53 JK: Yeah, yeah. 32:53 VT: Yeah, they tell you to bring a jar in. If you want. There were little things that–but I put up with it. That I did not like, you know, I fought, I fought like crazy. I love working with Vahe because Vahe knew he needed a new refrigerator real bad. Where they feel that oh you are going to get this fix or that– well freezer or whatever and, you know, I say Vahe, cannot we do something? Can we get maybe fifty-fifty if women’s guild could come up with say if the refrigerator costs one hundred, uh five hundred, if we came up with two fifty the stu– you know the church will because basically we were always given– we always try to give every year a thousand dollars I remember that when I was treasurer. One thousand dollars church to church. So this year, we are now at maybe seven fifty or stuff like, you know, why cannot we do that? You know? It was easy to fund, they had the money. They would not spend money. You know, but now I guess they are I have not been since they put the air conditioning in there. The day in the church hall or something? 33:56 JK: Yeah and they got a new dishwasher. 33:58 VT: They got a new dishwasher? 34:00 JK: Yeah. VT: Oh I have– my old microwave is still there. [laughs] 34:00 JK: Did you go to church um– 34:05 VT: When I was little– oh, yeah, loyally. Until we got to the age probably right after my dad died. You know, maybe a few years later. 34:14 JK: Okay. 34:14 VT: Oh, they used to have some nice family parties at church. 34:17 JK: So they– were there– were there a lot of Armenians in the community at– when you were growing up? 34:22 VT: Well we were all kids. 34:24 JK: Oh yeah. 34:25 JK: That was the generation. The older I got– you know my parents my mother was alive a lot of couples were alive, okay. And–and they would have Syracuse would come down. There, there were. Yeah. Oh, I–you know, but then when my generation started growing up, they were the ones that were leaving. Some stayed, a lot of them did not. Okay. A lot of them just left. You know, I know Harry dear on and now half the time they would come to church. They were here, but–they just broke away because– it just got away from them, you know? You know. I think he just got away from because you know darn well, uh, people just did not get along. And I came–to me I used to come home– it got to the point where women’s guild I– and I, I hit, oh, Louise used to get so mad at me she, she is a die hard, I will tell you that, that I will support Louise to this day. She loves that church and her– and her mother was really strong about teaching those kids your dad– they know a lot. Okay. And, uh, but there is your difference. Maybe my brother and I used to say that– I wonder if things would have been different if dad was alive. Because he was a strict Armenian too. But my mother lost it. You know, because not only that– they, they disowned my mother too. My brother was very bitter. He got– he picked it right up. Okay, because he ended up having to be full charge, as a man, you know, he grew up fast more so than I did. Okay. And what had happened is my brother– my– the men– my mother was a widower. They just shoved her aside. Please no, she said yeah, they do that. That is the Armenian way because there’s no man in the house. Okay? 36:10 JK: So– 36:10 VT: My mother ̶ we entertain almost every weekend there was somebody at our house because I– my job is to serve the fruit. Fruit. Fruit. And sit like a [speaks Armenian]. You know, right? Okay. Yeah. 36:22 JK: So, growing up did you guys– it was very prominent the father figure was more in charge than– 36:31 VT: Yes. 36:31 JK: –The mother. 36:33 VT: My mother never– she did not know the day when my dad died. Mom did not know where the money was coming from my dad had investments. That was what my mother looked at everybody thought we were rich. Not really, my mother was– all the years she sold the properties for– my mother never worked in her life. Okay. 36:53 JK: That is– yeah, that seems, uh, the norms for Armenian culture. 36:59 VT: Oh, really? Okay, yeah. She wore black like you will not believe, you know all that, you know. 37:07 JK: Did they– did either of them go to school or college or anything? 37:12 VT: Could not leave my mother. My brother got married real quick. You know, my sister while she was non Armenian. My mother broke into that because my cousin Alice out in Connecticut. I got really raised a lot in Connecticut, too. When I was little. Okay, because like my aunt married. If she was here, my mother used to say, her sister. That was her sister. Okay, she is– all she is good for is to have babies. She–terrible cook terrible housekeeper, but she loved having babies. [laughs] My mother used to say in her broken– you had to listen to the broken English¬– laughing over it. 37:48 JK: Did she ever– so she learned English coming over here. 37:50 VT: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, she was surrounded by– 37:53 JK: Of course, yeah. 37:54 VT: The neighborhood and they loved– my mother cooked a lot. You know, and they love– oh, they were very good to my mother. Until you know, to this day, that is all they talk– they were very good to me when I got married, my brother. Yeah. You know, very cool–and that was, that was what I was telling you and I forgot the Dr. McKibbin, living next door to the Parsons she, he was a doctor that came to the house, which you do not have that today. It is going way back. Okay because my dad died in (19)44, 1944. So, Dr. uh– my– something about Dr. McKibbin you know, I keep forgetting that again come into the house. So here we go safely, that one to tell us so it could not be that important to tell. But I thought it was and I cannot remember what this was supposed to be about. 38:49 JK: Oh, um, talking about. Now I cannot remember. 38:52 VT: Yes, when my aunt married, my aunt married, had five kids but she also had two or three she had–she had a stillborn baby that died and then two other miscarriages. So my cousin, so when she died, my father told my mother, Martha, you need to go to Connecticut. Gary needs your help. If you hit the five kids, you know, and Marty was just going into his senior year. He, he was a nice serg– in Rhode– at Providence, Rhode Island. Okay. But I mean, they were from Bridgeport, Connecticut at that time. Okay. The one boy and the three girls– four girls. Okay. So my mother used to take me up there by car and she would stay for a while then she come home. Okay. And, but then to the old Phoebe Snow train every summer. School is out for two months. Yeah, right to Connecticut. Okay, so it was actually my mother and my brother stayed home. My mother would not leave. She felt she could not get rid of the house. That was Bob's house, you know, her husband’s and that means she just was not going to give it up. She felt that was her place. And she– now if she was here today she tell you too– because later in life, she was used say I made a very bad mistake. I had opportunity to get remarried. And she felt, just told them no. Okay, and she says, I probably should– I would have made it– life a lot easier for you and your brother. And probably for me too, but she just felt at that time. No. Then she got to the point she thought she was getting too old to get married. She died young. She was only fifty-eight years old when my mother died. There was a big age difference between them too. 40:34 JK: That is interesting. 40:35 VT: Yeah. 40:35 JK: Um, growing up did you guys celebrate as a family Armenian Christmas or– 40:39 VT: We did both. 40:40 JK: Oh both okay. 40:41 VT: We would go to the Armenian Church. Yeah. 40:43 JK: And did you go to the Armenian Church when they did have service or when you could? 40:47 VT: Yeah, I did not go to a Catholic or you know, when we did not have church the Kradjians who lived on Shore Street here on the west side, right down [inaudible] Boulevard. Yeah, you know, there is the Baptist church there. [laughs] So when we–they used to go over there for parties with the Kradjians, okay, and the Rejebian– all the Hadjincis, okay? They would send us kids from church to the Baptist Church. Oh, my god if my brother was alive here today I got to ask my sister I just think she still got– he won a Bible for perfect attendance. 41:25 JK: Oh my gosh that is funny. 41:26 VT: Yeah. 41:26 JK: That is funny. 41:28 VT: My mother was very strict about going to church she wanted us to go to church real bad whether it was a– 41:32 JK: The Armenian Church? 41:33 VT: Well, both. I think she was– she I think she understood about the Armenian Church because we got to the point she probably could not say anything because well we just said no, we were not going. We always went to the social stuff. You know, they used to have nice picnics. They used to go up to the Kradjians farm up there by State Park somewhere. They were great times. You see all that just dissolved because you do not get the help or you do not get the cooperation among the people because they fight. I hate to say it, you know, that is what turn my– that was what turned me off. You know, down deep I feel very strongly, you know, like I told Louisa when she called me last year she's I paid for your dues I said I will give it to you the money no, no, no she said I did it the year before too and I said Louise, why? Then Adrian, your Aunt, called because you know they do not get along. You know that, right? Okay. You know, in those days they never took measurements. 42:30 JK: They just– 42:31 VT: No, my mother used to throw me out of the kitchen. You know? Okay. And my cousins in Connecticut when they used to come down they always called her mom too, they grew up with my, my mother took right over here, you know, when they were up there. And they would say mom wait we got to measure that [laughs] and my cousin is try to write that down the recipe. Yeah, but the cooking classes went real nice. So then all of a sudden it just dissolved. I do not know why, why. I honestly– I could not tell you why. 42:59 JK: Do you know how to cook Armenian food or something? 42:60 VT: I know how to do the pastry stuff, you know. Oh pilaf who–my–my grandkids make the pilaf. Oh, who does not love pilaf? My husband hated rice when he went–well he had it in the service. Okay. And the first time, uh, [inaudible] ‘s mother okay, made it. She–she was the cook she was good I do not if you ever knew her Mrs. Cutrone. 43:28 JK: Maybe, I am not sure. 43:29 VT: Okay, Sonic–Sominick, is that her name, Sominick? 43:32 JK: Maybe. 43:33 43:35 VT: Yeah. Okay. And well her–her brother is Hagop’s father–well Jackie's father. Was Mrs. Cutrone they were brother and sister. Okay. I am sure that–I am sure if you–you did not talk to Hagop at all? 43:48 JK: Uh, maybe Gregory did, I am not sure if I did. I do not think I did. 43:49 VT: OK, maybe I would think I– if I know Jackie is a hundred percent Armenian. Yeah. And he's good. He is a super kid, you know, I, I just feel bad that he never got married, you know, but he is still loyal to his mother. You know, and, oh, very I do not think she led a happy life either. You know, it was a hard life. Yeah. But I–I think, uh, he was a strange man. Let us put it that way. You know, but he was nice. He was always very good with my husband very nice to talk to my hu– I think because nobody else would talk to him [laughs] you know at church. 44:32 JK: Was it, um, growing up, did your parents want you to marry an Armenian or no? 44:35 VT: I, I said that if my dad was alive, I think so. Like I said, my uncle, Uncle Sam, Uncle Shahen, he passed away, okay. Out in California. When I called and told him, you know, that I, you know, it is good to get married. I think he just a minute it was– you were no longer a Mangurian. Slammed the phone down. Yeah, I got disowned. You know, I do not know him, in fact, I saw him maybe all my life maybe ten times maybe. You know, I know he came to Binghamton once, he wanted to– he was going to go to Europe to give himself a life, which he did. And I was– that was when I left the bank and I was working at links. Okay, and he wanted me to go to Europe with him. My mother told him very politely to go, be there alone. You are not going, you know. And you do not know, those days I respected my mother. You know, I would have– I probably. I probably would have gone all expenses paid and everything. My mother just absolutely put her foot down, you know? And he came home. Yeah. My mother. Yeah. I, I think he wanted even to marry my mother after my dad died. My mother did not–could not stand him anyway. Yeah. No, she did not. You know, but I, I think things you know Gary, and I used to talk about that. Do you think things would have been different if dad was alive? And I, I think there– yeah, I do not know. I mean that was an answer that I will never know. 46:06 JK: Do you, um, yeah I guess, definitely. Do– growing– later on in life, did you raise your children more Armenian, or? 46:15 VT: My grandson wants to know more about Armenians than anything. 46:19 JK: Interesting. 46:20 VT: Oh, he did– yeah– he had to do a paper–write up about a paper about the Armenian genocide. I gave him a little. Yeah. They had the books that I had. Yeah. Yeah, he was very bright. He, he was right into it. 46:31 JK: So you did– 46:33 VT: And I just cannot get him to come here at a certain time to take him to the Armenian Church because I totally–I says if you want to hear him sing or hear him play the piano–he plays the piano really lovely. 46:47 JK: That is nice. 46:48 VT: Yes, yes. And he plays the cello. 46:51 JK: Oh, wow. 46:52 VT: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 46:53 JK: That is really nice. 46:54 VT: Yeah he– you know, I mean, that is something he is going to have for the rest of his life– you know, he–he has won a lot of honors for piano, you know. Last year when, uh, not last year but he was going into eleventh grade now, when they were moving up from middle school to high school from eighth to ninth, okay, at graduation– they did it just like a normal graduation honored, you know, the top forty kids. They had to have maintain, maintain an average of nine point eight something, okay? Yeah he is a perfect hundred. I hate to– I am bragging, I am sorry, I got the rights to do this and I am going to do it. Okay. He is’ very he is way over my head. I talked to him about my iPad. I cannot figure this out and he is talking–we are back. Grandma does not know– grandma what are you doing? I said I do not know it is just that–and he says grandma just stay put, I am going to go get my iPad we will go one by one. [laughs] 47:51 JK: That is funny. 47:54 VT: But he will talk to me about things that I do not even know what he is talking about it is way over my head and he will say grand–ok I am going oh uh huh, uh huh. He will say, you do not understand do you, grandma? He says no I do not, honey. You know, that is how– you got to tell me grandma. You know, you know? He is very, very brave. 48:11 JK: Do they know Armenian or ever– Or your children? 48:14 VT: He knows just a couple of words. But you know, I do not because I do not speak it. 48:18 JK: You do not speak it, only your brother, right? 48:20 VT: Yeah. Well, my brother passed away. 48:24 JK: Oh okay. 48:24 VT: Uncle Gary passed away. Yeah. Right. Right. I was very surprised because, basically, he ended up going to the Catholic Church. Okay. Which I cannot, you know, he did a lot for St. Cyril’s on Clinton Street, a lot, we all expected. But I was very surprised when my daughter– when my sister-in-law did the obituary, read it then she indicated to– about, you know, how proud he was to be an Armenian. And he always kept, yeah, he used to– him and, uh, the old mayor. 48:56 JK: Yeah. 48:57 VT: Okay. Well, it is a camel driver. He was a Lebanese. Okay, between him and my brother, they were trying to say, who had a better collection of camels. Because every time my brother went out and see a statue or something he– and he had history, pictures and books about Armenia, like, my brother was very engrossed in it. But he hated to go to the Armenian Church because he just felt my mother needed help after my dad died, and they just ignored her completely, you know, and that is just– and then he was told this is the Armenian way because there was no man in the house so they are not going to bother. And all the way that my mother used to feed them and do everything my dad and him that, you know, my brother took it very bitter. He was more bitter– I did not understand until later in life he's telling me this. And then– and then later in life, it did not mean crap to me anyway. 49:48 JK: Of course. 49:48 VT: You know, it did not matter. 49:50 JK: So finishing up, did– how would you describe yourself, um, like Armenian-American, American-Armenian, or– 49:59 VT: I think Armenian-America, you know, it, it is your blood. It is in there, it is in there. I could not wait–I saw that advertise on TV about that movie and I wanted to see it. And I got after Louise. Yeah, they did not know nothing about it, I kept calling Louise about it, you know and then she was calling, you know, everybody else in her family and they did not know, you know, that Aslan–and then she finally had Aslan call to see– you did go see– I said yes, Aslan go, it is worth the money. I said I wanted to go because I– as much as I knew about yeah, the walk, yeah we can read about it, but I guess I just thought maybe I get something more out of the movie. You know, and I felt– it, it got to me. Couple scenes there, it really got to me. 50:41 JK: I am sure. 50:42 VT: You know, you know, but, uh, but they had something on TV. I wanted the news channels. Okay. Yeah. 50:48 JK: Yesterday was the, uh– 50:49 VT: The, uh, the anniversary. Yeah, the twenty-fourth. Right. And whoever the reporter was, it was nat–national news, came out how is– this movie has brought it out. 51:00 JK: The Promise, yeah the movie. 51:02 VT: The mo– yeah, but they also said it was not that thorough to explain. It was more like a love story but it gave us a jiff of it. But it was not rated high, it was only two stars that is that much. 51:15 JK: Yeah. Apparently, some of the people against the movie rated it low– this is a controversial thing. 51:23 VT: It is a c–well, oh well, yeah. Well that is what– I think that is what bothered me after I saw the movie. Is this going to be an uproar? Is there going to be a lot of protesting on it because there is got to be a lot of Turks around here. Right. Now, see, now that is what I was brought up to. Do not hate a [indistinct]– at school. Fooling around, talking and everything but when she wanted– they wanted to get married. They got married in the Armenian Church. Her mo– his mother and father stood outside the door. They never walked into the church to see them get married. They heard it. They never saw them actually get married. 51:57 JK: That is crazy. 51:58 VT: Right hand to God, I am not making that up. When I saw that I thought well that is icing on the cake. My mother saw that I think that made her, you know, well because, because well Alice got married in Connecticut. Yeah. They you know, they got married in a Catholic church but the wedding reception was at the Armenian Church in Connecticut in Bridgeport. Okay? And my cousin Joe was a dear oh, he was–you know, he just won my mother over. Okay. And I think my mother really, at that point, she was so Americanized. You know she never wanted to go back to Europe my brother truck– tried to talk. We were going to go take a trip to, you know, he thought mom would like to go back. Had no decided this is my country. She used to say. She I, I think she just did not want to go see it. Yeah, she, you know, I do not know. She never would– never said. The only time I got anything out of her is when I went to wash her back. And I saw that. And she did not really get teary eyed. She just said it and that was the end of it, you know? 53:01 JK: That is interesting. That is very interesting. Thank you. Uh, was there anything else you would like to add that I– 53:05 VT: Not I talked too much. I do not know. I do not know if you needed facts and figures like, you know, I do not know. I do not care whether you use it or not, to be honest with you. 53:15 JK: All right, well thank you. 53:16 VT: I– oh– I like to hear what Louise had to say. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Virginia Terrell https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a7b00200acf255c9a97c00f7170e0b82.jpg 8783fbf6c770d20c1ea405a2ffbb7c73 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ec70fd84868024a7fb0210d2ca40e02a.mp3 786bbae4a9e91e46ecfc3ba9841107da Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2009-12-14 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed W. Wilson Goode Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Wilson Goode is a former mayor of Philadelphia and he was the first African American to hold in that office. He was a community activist, commissioner for the state Public Utility Commission, and managing director for Philadelphia. He got his Bachelor's degree at Morgan State University. Then graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in the school of the Felts Institute of Government."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Wilson Goode is a former mayor of Philadelphia and was the first African American to hold that office. He was a community activist, commissioner for the state Public Utility Commission, and managing director for Philadelphia. He got his Bachelor's degree at Morgan State University, then graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in the school of the Felts Institute of Government. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Subject LCSH African American mayors; Mayors--Philadelphia; Goode, W. Wilson--Interviews Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 111:43 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Immorality; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Civil War generation; African American; 9/11; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Vietnam Memorial; segregation; Trust; sexism; democracy; inauguration; Richard Nixon; Philadelphia; Brown v. Board of Education."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Immorality; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Civil War generation; African American; 9/11; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Vietnam Memorial; segregation; Trust; sexism; democracy; inauguration; Richard Nixon; Philadelphia; Brown v. Board of Education. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with W. Wilson Goode Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Goode, W. Wilson ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource African American mayors; Mayors--Philadelphia; Goode, W. Wilson--Interviews Description An account of the resource Wilson Goode is a former mayor of Philadelphia and was the first African American to hold that office. He was a community activist, commissioner for the state Public Utility Commission, and managing director for Philadelphia. He got his Bachelor's degree at Morgan State University, then graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in the school of the Felts Institute of Government. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-12-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.127a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.127b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 111:43 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7df87c2ab888cdd3ec67f59289d86412.jpg ebeffdbc19ee8c70f9014f97fc206f18 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/11be79a6355f5661aa9e9db8eb3ab242.mp3 8eeeb87c626feac31d716352c8a64208 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"1997-02-15"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15359,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,14281427],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">1997-02-15 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Wally Kennedy Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Wally Kennedy, a native of Chicago, is a journalist, anchor, and an educator. He is currently a news anchor for the Philadelphia KYW Newsradio and has interviewed many people ranging from Joe Biden to Reagan Carter. Prior to joining KYW Newsradio, he spent twenty years as a television talk host. Kennedy is a graduate of Loyola Academy, and Columbia College, in Chicago."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Wally Kennedy, a native of Chicago, is a journalist, anchor, and an educator. He is currently a news anchor for the Philadelphia KYW Newsradio and has interviewed many people ranging from Joe Biden to Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter. Prior to joining KYW Newsradio, he spent twenty years as a television talk host. Kennedy is a graduate of Loyola Academy, and Columbia College, in Chicago. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 103:36 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"American Woman; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Students for a Democratic Society; John F. Kennedy; Vietnam War; Platoon; Catholic Church; Dr. Spock; Ronald Reagan; Healing; Vietnam veterans; Cambodian Campaign; Activism; Civil Rights protest; Ken Burns; Civil War; Empowerment; Parents; College; Birmingham campaign; Ted Turner; Tom Hayden; Jerry Rubin; Timothy Leary."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14275305}}">American Woman; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Students for a Democratic Society; John F. Kennedy; Vietnam War; Platoon; Catholic Church; Dr. Spock; Ronald Reagan; Healing; Vietnam veterans; Cambodian Campaign; Activism; Civil Rights protest; Ken Burns; Civil War; Empowerment; Parents; College; Birmingham campaign; Ted Turner; Tom Hayden; Jerry Rubin; Timothy Leary. Subject LCSH Radio journalists; Kennedy, Wally--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Wally Kennedy Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Kiernan Sullivan Date of interview: 15 February 1997 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:05 Make sure it is up. I-I am- WK: 00:06 This is a little, uh - This is a little less noisy in my office. SM: 00:09 Right. Well, one of the main projects I am trying to work on here is to try to evaluate the, uh, the boomers and their impact over the last 30 years. One of the inspirations to that [inaudible] to lead into the first question is, um, Boomer generation, um, when you hear about it in the news today, many times politicians will make kind of statements about the boomer generation is, uh, being the reason why we have all the problems today based on their lifestyles, the free love issue, the issue of drugs in America, they will, they will kind of pinpoint back to that era that look at a lot of the, um, the protests and lack of respect for authority that was supposedly happening in that time that is carried over today. So, my very first question to you, Wally is, what are your thoughts about individuals who generalize, uh, the boomer generation will, will pinpoint the boomer generation that will be the lightning rod for all of the ills of today's society. WK: 01:02 W-well, first of all, obviously, I-I would be defensive of people who are my age, uh, and in five or 10 years younger and five or 10 years older who have gotten this this, uh, name is the rumors. Um. I think that you have to water seeks its own level. And I think that we have, we have sought our own body. Um. I remember very clearly what it was like to grow up the 1950s in the early 1960s in America to then, and I think up until, until, uh, well, in the (19)70s, uh, especially, American government was, um, uh, somewhat repressive. I think our society was somewhat repressive. Uh, I think it was somewhat Puritan. Uh, I think it was controlled by the post-World War Two veterans. Uh, Bill Clinton is the first non-World War II veteran that we have ever had in the White House. And not saying that he is good, it is just that is just a fact of life. He was the first Boomer we have ever had in our house, in the, in the White House. So, I think that, first of all, to blame the ills of society on the baby boomers. I think it is a tremendous misnomer. Um, I think you have to take each revolution one at a time, um, for example, if and I can go into greater detail i-in other questions, but let us just say, for, for the sake of example, the sexual r-revolution, because that is, that is a flash point. Um, was there a sexual revolution? Yes, but this is pre aids. This is post pill. This is a period of time where the worst thing that could happen to you, if you were using the pill, or that your partner was using the pill, the worst thing that could happen to you is you would get a venereal disease, which was easily curable, easily curable by, uh, going to your doctor, getting a shot or getting a pill. And that was, that was the end of the consequence if, in fact, protection was being used and the pill is being used. Um, we now live in an era where if you sleep with the wrong person, you can die. That was not a reality in the 1960s but, but what brought that revolution about was really a convergence of, I think, of two or three different things. And I can, I can tell you one thing right now, I was brought up in a very religious Catholic home. I am still a practicing Catholic, and I will be probably till the day I die. But not only the Catholic Church, but America in general, was a very repressive sexual society prior to the 1960s, um, it was something that was not talked about. Uh, I love my father very dearly. He was a very well-educated man, but basically, I learned much more on the street about sexuality than I ever learned from him. And this is a man with a PhD and a woman and a wife who is, you know, college. Um, all I learned about sexuality I learned in the street. And I did think that there was a significant- [intercom interruption] That is something we are going to have to live with, unfortunately. [inaudible] Um, I think there was a significant resentment on the part of a lot of so-called Baby Boomers that all the all the information about sexuality, uh, had to be squeezed out of legitimate sources if they got it at all. So, is it any wonder that Playboy magazine or other instruments of sexuality skyrocketed during the 1960s because the thirst for good information, for something that is very natural and very legitimate, very in, in, something that is a part of all of us just simply was not there? I mean, you can scour textbooks that we used in high school biology classes in the 1960s and there would be vague references to zygotes, and you know that in many cases, they would not even use the term sperm, you know, which now rolls off the tongue. I mean, as a talk show host, I probably used the word 300 times in the last year, um, but there was a real, honest to God, vacuum of legitimate information that every young man and young woman deserved to have t-to say nothing about the fact that they were raging hormones and all that other stuff. But basically, we lived in a very repressive culture concerning that. Uh, we lived in a very repressive culture concerning the sexuality of women, which is, which was one of the, one of the fundamentals and what the genesis of the women's movement that started in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, uh, before it became politicized, much of what the women's movement was all about was around the fact that women had literally, literally been kept in a second-class status, not only in terms of their power within our culture, but also sexually. Women were viewed as the sexual objects of men. They were viewed as, as the object to be enjoyed by men. And the idea that they could have a sexuality of their own and that they could enjoy sexuality was preposterous. Smart Women always knew that. Women who-who empowered themselves, always knew that. But the average American woman was-was not thought of as in terms of her sexuality. Her sexuality was looked at for two things. Number one, it was to police her man, and number two was to have babies. And so, if our-our generation, the people who graduated from college in the early in the mid (19)60s and to the mid (19)70s, had the audacity to say, wait a minute, there has got to be more to life than that. Then so be it. Are we responsible for a million teenage pregnancies? Are we responsible for, uh, for a million abortions in America? I doubt it. I do not think so. I think that is an awfully, uh, heavy burden to put on a generation of people. Are we responsible for saying that people are sexual? Yes, good, good. SM: 07:08 This leads me right into, um, the question dealing with, uh, your thoughts, uh, y-you deal with the sexual revolution here, but your basic thoughts on whether the boomer generation was a more of a positive or a negative, [inaudible background noise] and, um, in response, SM: 07:23 If you can list a, list a review of the, uh, things that you think were positive about the boomers and some of the negatives about the boomers. [intercom interruption] WK: 07:31 Well, I think it- I very much fall down in, in the direction of the positives. Um, first of all the positives: I think the single biggest positive to come out of the 1960s which was largely creation of the boomers in, in all men of goodwill and women of goodwill, was the Civil Rights Movement. Uh, America entered the 1960s with the status quo perfectly content to marginalize in every way, shape or form, black men and women and America entered the 1970s, uh, with largely because of Dr. King, but also because of the help of, of boomers, both black and white, um, committed to the idea that that was never going to happen again, and that the second-class status of African Americans, which to this Day still needs very close scrutiny, um, but that was forever changed. And I think that it was the boomers who said, Dad, why are those dogs going after those kids in Birmingham? Dad, how come those cops are turning those fire hoses on legitimate protesters in Alabama? And, and it was the boomers who raised those questions, I-I think that that is that is so-so I think in terms of long, lasting effects and positive effects, I think that number one would be the civil rights movement, although one could arguably say even in 1997 that there was still plenty of room for improvement. Um, second thing, um, I do not think that there is any question that we, we legitimately pressured the United States government into getting out of Vietnam. Unfortunately, too late. There has always been the argument as to whether or not had JFK lived after the 1964 election, would he have withdrawn the troops because he already saw the writing on the wall, because at the time, at the time that JFK was killed, about 150 advisors had already been killed, and all I know is that one of the joys of my life was that I had the opportunity to interview the late Dean Rusk after he had left government service, he went back to the University of Georgia, and he was on the, the law school, and I asked him that. Now I read different answers in print, but I told I will tell you that he told me face to face, that Kennedy planned to withdraw the troops from Vietnam after the 1964 election, and the only reason is that, that he kept them there is because he was hoping like hell that the South Vietnamese would take these people literally for what they were, which was advisors, take their advice and, and be able to mobilize a standing army which would be able to withstand the North that was point number one. And point number two was purely political. Kennedy was a political animal, and Kennedy realized that he was going to be probably running against Goldwater, who was this arch conservative, and he did not want to have to deal with Goldwater pointing a finger in his face, saying you were responsible for making South Vietnamese Communist. Because remember, back in those days, the single worst thing that you could be in the universe was a communist. So, if the domino theory were true and South Vietnam, South Vietnam had fallen, then Kennedy would have taken the burden for it, but Dean Rusk told me JFK was going to pull the troops from Vietnam. I think. I started my college career debating a member of the students for the democratic society. I ended my college career out in the street with them. Um, there, there came a point at which my upbringing and my knowledge and my looking at what was going on, just said, this is wrong. This is so wrong. And then there came the point where I think we all realized this government, which is a this was an absolute first, and you can give 100 percent credit to the baby boomers, although it has a lasting effect, and I think a very negative effect. The baby boomers were the first to say, “This government is lying.” Now, all the, all the, you know, the American Legion guys with their hats on, who, what, who fucked the big one [inaudible] would listen to us and say, [inaudible] these kids are patriotic. I mean, the American government does not lie. We know for a fact. We know for a fact the government lied. We know the President lied, we know Johnson lied, we know Nixon lied. We know that the body count was absolute horse shit. Um, so baby boomers, the college students at the time, were forcing the, the government to come clean. A-And I think Nixon put us in a position, and I think history has, has backed me up in this where, you know, he polarized the country to such a great deal that basically, we were on the we were on the brink of civil war. It was the young versus the old, and I was proud to be among the young. And do not think I did not have a number of set twos with my own with my own father, about this, because he was a World War Two veteran and the read. But the reality is that even he and most Americans by the time, by the time the Paris Peace Talks, came up with some kind of a conclusion, everybody was so sick of it and wanted it to end so badly, but they lied to us, so we were responsible for that. However, there is a downside, and the downside is this, we are responsible we are now in our (19)30s and (19)40s, not (19)30s. We are in our (19)40s and (19)50s. We are responsible for-for making our children believe that government can never be honest. We are responsible for constantly bringing up Vietnam, bringing up Watergate, bringing up government deception, to the point where you have one of the most popular shows on television, The X Files, the predicate of which is the government deceives. And the government, the government will do. The government is a power unto itself, and the government will lie and cheat and steal and do whatever it damn well pleases. And so that is a [inaudible] as so, many of the things that we did well, were advantages at the time. Now they have become disadvantages, because now you take your average 18 or 19- or 20-year-old, and sometimes they just flat out, flat out, do not believe what the government says, which is ironic, because the government is Bill Clinton, who's a who's a baby boomer. SM: 13:39 This gets right into the issue of trust, which is later on in [inaudible mumbling], go right into it. Um, there is a feeling that I have had for quite some time when I deal with college students, although I have been hiring for 18 years, that, um, college students today certainly question, just like we questioned when we were young. They want to have answers. But there is a I am wondering that this concept of trust, the psychologists will say that people cannot succeed, or one cannot succeed in life unless you trust others, you know, trust your parents, trust your family. You got to have a sense of trust. But many of the boomers came out of that era because of what happened with Watergate, because of the lives of Vietnam, because of many other, um, crises that have happened with political leaders, of lacking trust in the political process, uh, lacking trust in anybody in a position of power and responsibility, and that not only includes political leaders, but it includes ministers, head, CEOs of corporations. Um, a question I am kind of leaning at here is, um, how you know you referred to it here, but how important and how serious is this issue of trust in America today, not only for people our age, the boomers, for the parents of these young people, but the children of boomers, and in, in some respects, even, uh, the people World War Two, generation from the, uh, from World War Two, because, uh, they all experience what we all went through in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. And so, this issue of trust, where do you place that on the scale? Say, one to ten in terms of how serious it is in this country, or lack thereof? WK: 15:04 Oh, I-I think if I had to-to look at America 1997 I would, I would label lack of trust is, is probably one of the four or five most significant problems in our culture today. So, I am serious about our being somewhat responsible for the-the way America is today in, in a negative sense. I do not know that it is not I do not know that it that was our responsibility to pull back. I mean, we-we had Watergate, so we elected a Georgia, Georgia Peanut Farmer as president, and we expected him to cure all of our ills he did, and, and so therefore we became disappointed in him, and then we went with-with Reagan and the Republicans who, who told us what we wanted to hear. And now we know that with things like Iran Contra, there were convenient lapses of memory, where, where Ronald Reagan applied, and there was ample evidence to indicate that George Bush line. So, I think that, I think the trust in government issue is that if we set up a government whereby, in a democracy, the only way you can keep staying in your own government is by lying, or not necessarily lying, but telling people what they want to hear. Because, after all, elections are a popularity contest, so that that is that is a difficult dilemma, but at least, I think we are much more out in the open about it. I see like Senate races, though, like this. The Torricelli Zimmer race last year, um, turned my stomach, because it gets to the point where you have, you have two men who sink so low in their quest for-for high office, and it is high office representing the-the great state of New Jersey in the in the United States Senate is a high office, and it is a wonderful honor. To, to sink so low, and in this, this finger waving of who is more liberal? You are a liberal, you are a liberal, you are a liberal, whereas you, you had this, this overweight, blow hard Republican party spokesman with a three-hour radio program who has no challenge at all, and basically, he has turned the word liberal into one of the filthiest words in the English language. So, so, of course, if I am 19 years old, who am I going to trust? Who can you trust? Um, I also I feel sadly because I think that, that I hope I am wrong, but I but I think that one has to, as one gets older, one has to have a spiritual trust in a higher power, whether you call it God, Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, one has to come to grips with why we are here, what we are here for. And I think that that was something that, frankly, you asked me one of the disadvantages of the boomers? We convinced ourselves that we put ourselves here, we convinced ourselves that we-we did all these wonderful things, and we convinced ourselves that we could do very well without that, without anybody's help, especially the help of a higher power, because we had religion jammed down our throats when we were kids, and once we became adults, we did not want to have to deal with it. And it is only when you get married and you have kids and you start raising your own kids that you really sc-scratch your head and say, okay, well, now what am I going to teach them? So, I think th-that that the-the removal of God or a spirituality from American culture is very-very attributable to the, uh, to the baby boomers, very much so, but we are not the generation that throws our babies in the toilet. It is 19-year-old that are doing that. It is 18-year-old that are doing that. We may be their parents, but I do not know. I-I rather suspect that if you ask me what I think is wrong with America today, I will tell you, lack of trust is, is a significant factor. I think, uh, a lack of respect for authority is a significant factor. But when you have got a president who's a skirt chaser, and then basically all the things that we have now come out to find out about even LBJ, I mean, Roosevelt had Lucy Mercer. JFK had more mistresses than you can shake a stick at Roosevelt had his ones on the side. And so now we come to find out that all these guys were kind of near do wells. And so therefore you-you wonder why we do not have trust. But I think that the country suffers from lack of trust, a lack of respect. And I think that one of the single largest issues in the country today is the fact that you have almost 50 percent of young adults growing up in a home where both parents do not live and-and we- SM: 19:29 Oh! WK: 19:29 -we sweep it under the rug, we pretend like it is and we do talk shows, and people get on and psychologists hypothesize how, you know, it does not really make any difference whether the father is in the picture. It does not really make any difference whether the parents are married. It does not really make any difference if you are married three or four or five times. No. You know, the eternal quest for love is-is nonsense. SM: 19:51 That goes directly back to the boomers then, and maybe their failure in terms of, um, being parents or, um, a-and the attacks I originally referred to at the beginning of the interview that, uh, maybe one of the weaknesses, there may be some semblance of truth to the problems today because of the way boomers think. A-and the, the question I want to ask right now is, have boomers shared? This is a very important concept here, sharing their experiences, sitting down with their sons and daughters and saying, this is the way it was, Mary or John. Um, have boomers transferred the issue of passion to their children. We all know today that volunteerism is very important amongst today's young people. They, they volunteer in high school and they volunteer in college. You are probably up to 90 percent of students coming in or close to it who are volunteering. But that does not get into the whole issue of desiring at some juncture to serve others, to want to become a politician, or to want to go into a position of responsibility to serve others beyond oneself. So, I am getting a what are your thoughts on that, in terms of, have boomers related to their kids? Um, and, and have they sat down a-and, and supposedly a quality boomer had was passion. Your thoughts on the passion that boomers had and whether they have been able to transfer this to their transfer this to their kids. WK: 21:04 Well, obviously I can only speak on behalf of my own, um, and my wife and I are, are the same age. We are both 48 and, uh, so we both, even though I did not know her when I was going through college, we both lived these things at very different levels. She was at Central Michigan University. I was at Columbia College in Chicago. So, in an urban setting, I was exposed to a lot more, but yet at the same time, I mean, they, they, they had their changes as well. Um, it would be irresponsible of me as a parent to not let my children know that, once upon a time, not too long ago, that a black woman or a black man could not drink at the same water fountain. It would be irresponsible of me to, in any way, shape or form, agree with that Reagan quote that Vietnam was noble. I think Vietnam was not noble. Vietnam was a mistake. It was a mistake. It was a mistake. We may have had good intentions, but the fact of the matter is, I cannot help but look at that wall now very cynically, and look at the names of 60,000 martyrs, and they were martyrs for LBJ, and they were martyrs for Nixon, and they were martyrs for this American jingoistic bullshit idea that we, that we are the people to tell the whole world how to run their affairs. I think that the world has done a tremendous job of discovering itself that communism left to its own devices, collapses under its own weight. That is what is happening in Eastern Europe. But, um, so as a parent, it would be grossly irresponsible of me not to let them know about what tremendous injustices existed as I was a young adult and I was looking at the world the same way they look at it. Now, they take these things for granted. I have got two daughters. I have got a 16-year-old and a 14-year-old. The idea that they can do anything they want, they take for granted. That is a given. If they want to be doctors, fine if they want to be you know, I have always told them, do not if, if you want to be a flight attendant, be a flight attendant, but for God's sakes, if you want to be a pilot, be a pilot. You know, whereas, whereas women in our age were told, oh, you want to fly? Be a flight attendant. And they were not even called flight attendants. They were called stewardesses, and they had to be lookers, and they could not gain weight and, and all that. So, I think it is imperative, and to any responsible parent to say, this is the way it was. And this is, this is what has changed. Kids are kids, and kids are going to take that information and process in any way they think they have. I [stuttering] my kids, all three of my kids, are far from perfect, and I have got one, as you all know, who's, you know, kind of trying to still discover himself, but he would no more involve himself any kind of in any kind of an act of racism or sexism or any of the isms then, then he would, you know, walk in front of a railroad train. Um, in my-my daughter, the middle child, is 16 years old, but mentally, she is much more mature, and, uh, we will hear comments made at the school that she goes to, which is a parochial high school that she considers to be homophobic, and she will stop right in their tracks, and she will turn around, and she will she will tell some kid, it is not faggot. SM: 24:12 Right. WK: 24:13 There are no faggots. You know, there are gay people and-and I am proud of her for that. SM: 24:19 That is good. WK: 24:19 So yes, I-I think that we have a duty. We have a responsibility. The last line in the movie platoon is [coughing]we have a r-responsibility to pass on to those who survived, uh, the stories of those who had not- i-in why they have that and what that was all about. So, um, I think most people I know, who are my age or thereabouts, in one way or another, tried to incorporate into their kids some kind of a sense of the decency that, that all of us, I think, felt. Uh, I think the Catholic Church has been maligned, and in some cases deservedly so, but I also think that the Catholic Church, I look at the Catholic Church as, as-as a major force of change, uh, in the area of civil rights, very they made it very abundantly clear by the mid to late 1960s I mean, some of those people getting the hell beat out of them down south were priests. SM: 25:29 Mhm. WK: 25:30 And, uh, you know, you have got the Bering brothers- SM: 25:33 Right, [inaudible] WK: 25:35 -and many of the and even some of the people around here who were arrested out of GE for trying to destroy the nuclear warheads were Catholic priests, um and that the morality, morality is such that every individual as Dr. King said, you know, the, the grandsons of slave owners and the grandsons of slaves should be able to stand side by side. And I, although we do not live in a utopian society, I think they were much, much closer to it. Um, it would be, what is the point? What is the point? I mean, I lived in the greatest era of the 20th century. Um, I do not a-and from what I have heard, I had no desire to live during the Depression, and I certainly had no desire to live during World War Two. But I can look back at my life now, and you know, hopefully there is a lot more of it left to live, but my God, what a great time to live. Uh, what a what a force of change we were. Um, you know, we were all brought up with Dr. Spock. And you know, when people would, you know, people would run to the drugstore when they would have a baby, and the first thing that they would get, besides the diapers, was Dr. Spock's book. And then it turned out, Dr. Spock came back and said, I screwed up. SM: 26:34 Yeah. [laughing] WK: 26:59 I loved him. I had him on two or three times he is a delightful old guy. And one woman called up and said, Dr. Spock, I hope, I hope that you-you are proud of yourself. You screwed up an entire generation. [laughter] Uh- SM: 27:15 Have you, have you changed your opinions of the, uh, the boomers as you have gotten older? Remembering those times when you were, uh, went to college for that first time and challenged that SDS member, and then you were out in the streets yourself, and toward the end, and now you are a TV, um, personality and had many different jobs, um, to the day. Have you changed or been pretty consistent, uh, on your thoughts on the boomers? And, uh, a-and secondly, one of the terms that many of us used at that time, and I would go into and that is, we are the most unique generation in American history. How would you comment on that? Some, as some people might say, an arrogant statement that we are the most unique, uh, different generation. WK: 27:54 Well, to be young is to be arrogant. You know, it is arrogance is an arrogance is a virtue that is especially endemic in the young. Um, I think at the time, I think that we were justified feeling that because, I mean, if you take that 10-year period of time, let us say between 19...1963 and 1973 we, um, made huge strides in the struggle for equality for all Americans. We, um, stopped the war that was terribly immoral and terribly unpopular. We brought out of the closet a-a very basic human need, which is sexuality. [getting up] Let me close this door [inaudible]. We were responsible for pressuring the Congress into removing a, uh, a president who was a liar. Um, so I would think that probably, if I had to guess, that statement was probably made sometime in the early (19)70s, because we were probably feeling our odds. And I think that every-every youthful generation feels their odds, see, I think the whole ballgame changed that when Reagan got it, because Reagan basically came in and said, “It is good to be a boomer.” Reagan basically came in and said, “Wealth is good.” And so, you had under Reagan, you had the, uh, you know, the, the movie hero the 1980s was Gordon Gekko. Wealth is good, you know. What? What is wrong if you want a BMW? What the hell is wrong with having a BMW? You know, if pe- if people are starving in Honduras, screw them. How many of you? How many of them do you know personally? And so, I think that through his charisma, which was considerable, um, Reagan, all of a sudden, took our-our, uh, our desire, which is uniquely American. I-I-I guess all people have a desire to feel good about themselves, but we really do, and he was certainly the most charismatic president since Kennedy, um, in-in, in my life, the two most charismatic presidents were Reagan and, uh, Kennedy, and Reagan came along and said, “What is wrong with being wealthy?” And, and so we had this tremendous period of prosperity. And I think some of us, as all of us grew in our jobs and grew in wealth and grew, you know, started having families of our own. I think all of us got kind of caught up in that BMW, uh, you know, okay, I paid my dues. Why should I have to worry about the other guy kind of thing? Um, and, and I do not know whether that is more a function of age, or what the political wind, or what the political climate is in America right now, so I think the Reagan kind of dampened the, that desire to change things. I mean, you know, Jerry Rubin became a stockbroker, you know, Abbie Hoffman became basically a comedian. Um, that the significant - there were no more significant strides to make. There were no wars, no more wars to be won. Um, by 1973 the feminist movement was well on its way. Uh the Civil Rights Movement was had really prospered. Uh, Vietnam, war was history. The, uh, the draft was history. So, yeah, I-I think that that is the relatively arrogant statement, but I think tha-that there is plenty of stuff to back that up. I do not see; I do not see the generation of today accomplishing those kinds of things. I mean, somebody comes out and says, “Oh, Tara Tabitha” [mic cuts out, fumbling to get it back in place]. You know, I-I can say, for example, in this in this field, in, in my field, um, when I started, th-there has been, as, as there had been in many fields, it has been tremendous change when I started being on the radio, which is where I started, was the domain of the white male with [intercom interruption] Uh, with the occasional exception of the very smooth voiced African American male, no women. God, you know, you would have a woman do a cooking show or something like that. [talking over each other] And then bit by bit, they put them in. And lo and behold, the, uh, the radio stations did not lose their audience, and lo and behold, they there were some that were pretty damn good. I do not see, frankly, the same quality of, of hunger, and I do not see the same quality of, of, um, well studied nature that coming out of the kids that are coming into the field today, I see people who want to be within five years, they want to be the six o'clock anchor, and they want to be making $800,000 a year. And when you tell them, yeah, well, that all starts if you are lucky, if you are lucky, you get a job as a production assistant in Scranton for 15 grand a year. And then they bristle. Interestingly enough, the ones that turn out, the ones that do not bristle and say, “Okay, I am on my way,” are usually the ones that do quite well. SM: 33:09 Strong work ethic. WK: 33:11 Yeah, very much so. And I, and I think that, um, we are, we are, to a very large extent, our parents. And I think that my appearance, li-like many people, my-my grandparents were immigrants. Uh, my, my parents were the son and daughter of Irish immigrants, and not working was not an option. I mean, I did not even know what the hell welfare was, and the idea that I would not want to work anyway. I mean to me, what I do is lazy enough to begin with. I mean t-to me, in my world, I just if you sit on your butt in a radio studio all day and make a living at it, my god, that was just like, you know. I mean, my grandfather was a blacksmith and on a day like today where it is 100 degrees outside, that did not mean he did not go to work. He went to work, and the horses had to be shod, and because it was hot, they would be irritated. And, um, [someone coming in] Hi, David, how are you? Dave Roberts: 34:19 Good. WK: 34:19 Dave Roberts, Steve McKiernan [inaudible] I-I think, um, I think especially if [mic cuts out] WK: 34:22 I think it was a que- I think it was just a question of, what were you going to do? I do not think, I do not think that there was ever a question of, you make up your mind when you get there. I think there was always a question, what do you want to do when you I mean, the most commonly heard question, I think, was, what do you want to do when you grow up? And, um, so, you know, a lot of guys went to med school, a lot of guys went to law school. Um, a lot of people, just like myself, got a bachelor's degree and said, this is it, Jack, no more. This is, you know, I do not want to do anything more, more about this. But, um, I-I think that that particular period of time is indelible. I think from, uh, 60 about 63 to about 75 was indelible. I was carried out. [talking over announcement] Um, you know f-for 80 different reasons, um. SM: 35:27 [inaudible] WK: 35:27 Yeah. SM: 35:27 One of the leading questions in this whole project gets into the issue of healing. Um, uh, you are the 38th interview I have had in this project. WK: 35:36 Mhm. SM: 35:36 This is one of the most important aspects of the interview, and that is, uh, when people visit the Vietnam Memorial. And Jan Scruggs and the things that he did, uh, the goal of that memorial was the healing process, to heal the nation, to, uh, not only the Vietnam, uh, population and their families, but, uh, the nation as a whole. But in going to the Vietnam Memorial the last six years, not only on Memorial Day, but Veterans Day, I sense a lot of there is a lot of healing that still has to come. Uh, you hear it, and some of the statements made against the president, uh, certainly they will never forgive Jane Fonda. You know, it is not 100 percent forgiving of some people, but- WK: 36:20 She was not even here. SM: 36:20 And I know that some Vietnam veterans wanted to know. They asked me if she was going to be there. I just said I did not know, but I-I like your opinions on this issue of healing. Um, the divisions were so strong at that time. Um, there is a brand-new book out by Jules Wilk around 1968 and I recommend it highly. It is an excellent book. Gets into that whole year and how important it was in American history. WK: 36:20 There were protesters down there on the Fourth of July. SM: 36:20 Right. SM: 36:42 Yeah, and, but see, the divisions were there, and everybody seemed to it was an us versus them mentality. And the question is, many people will say, um, that the us versus them has never subsided, but it continues today and is directly linked back to that period. Uh, what have we healed? Your thoughts? Have we healed from the divisions of that time? Even though the war is over, um, the movements and some have gone on, civil rights, some people, we have taken steps backwards, as opposed to forward. But, uh, have we healed from those tremendous divisions? Or are the boomers carrying these divisions in their psyche, probably to their graves. WK: 36:42 I would say that was the pinnacle year. The answer your question is, no, I do not think so. I-I do not think we have healed because I-I think that, um, it has made an indelible mark on all the men, especially who had to deal with in one form or another, if you were male, and, and you, especially like myself, had the unfortunate distinction of drawing a, a low number, you had to deal with this military thing. And I remember as I got into senior year in college, and I was really, really anxious to get out and pursue my craft. I was already on the radio, and I could not wait till school was over, and then I could go out to wherever, Green Bay, Wisconsin, or, as it turned out Flint, Michigan, and really do this thing full time. I remember the, the burden of having to do this military thing was just like a weight on my chest. Um, and then, fortunately for me, something totally unexpected happened, and I was able to get into a reserve, but I did my time in the service that way, and I did not have to go to Vietnam. Um, I think, though, that the healing and, and the anger, I think, very legitimately, you know, let us call a spade a spade. I was able to go to college because my father was a college professor. SM: 38:39 Are we okay Dave in, here? Dave Roberts: 38:40 Yeah-yeah, it is fine, it is fine. I will be out of here in a second. SM: 38:43 Okay, oh okay. [multiple people talking at once] WK: 38:44 I went to I went to college for two reasons, because my father was a college professor with and with, our family could afford it, and number two, because he was a college professor, I have been told since I was a little kid, that was something I owed my father. And I hated the first two years of college, those two years of college when I had all electives was just a whole different ballgame. Um, and of course, while I was in college, it became abundantly clear that being in college as opposed to being in Vietnam, was a place to be. Um, so when I was my second semester senior year, and I heard about this reserve thing, I-I obviously jumped at it, not believing it, and, and it turned out to be accurate. So, I-I did four months after, and then six months, six years in the reserve. Um, but I think by that time, I think that everybody that I was in with had pretty much solidified their feeling that, uh, the government was a liar. They lied. They just lied. They lied about body counts. They lied about not bombing Cambodia when in fact we were. They lied about ground troops being in Cambodia when in fact they were. Uh, and so every time, even now. A-a-and frankly, just as an aside, I do not know what I think about Quinn not going in because frankly I knew 80 zillion guys who would use any excuse they could get, and my attitude was more power to you. Um, you know, you did what you did. I knew guys. I knew a guy who, um, was-was a half an inch too tall to go into to pass the physical. He was that he was like six, six or something like that. And he nevertheless, the week before his physical, because he was 1A he did traction, just to make sure that he stayed too tall. Well, now think about it. Think about it. At that particular point, we had several 100,000 troops in Vietnam. They were bringing the body bags back faster than they could bring the soldiers over there. And so, think about it. So, a lot of guys were making a cottage industry out of not, not going in the first place. And second of all, I mean, there was just, there was a tremendous amount of distrust. But the healing is not just I am a man of the government. The healing is divisions that took place within families. I mean, there is a really good scene in Born on the Fourth of July, where Tom Cruise comes home in a wheelchair, and one of the sister’s whispers in his ear about the brother. He is against the war, and Tom Cruise says this is before his conversion as Ron Covack to the activist Tom Cruise says, "Love it or leave it. Danny, love it or leave it." And that is a-and that that was something that internally had to be dealt with. And I do not think it ever was. Like to a lot of people, the wall means a different thing. To me, it is just like I can still see my father standing at the top of the stairs when I was just, I was of the opinion, then maybe, you know, just for five seconds I thought, well, maybe I will go to Canada. I knew I would not do that because I knew I could not work in this opinion; I could not work in this field if I did. But he said, well, then get out now, because I will not harbor a federal fugi-fugitive because of you. If you do not answer your draft induction, you are a fugitive, and I do not want you in the house. And that is the only time in my life which was full of ups and downs that my father ever said if that is what you are going to do, get out. SM: 42:18 Yeah, um- WK: 42:19 The healing very much is internal. Um, the healing is most importantly now, what do you say to 60,000 families? SM: 42:27 76 million people were boomers. WK: 42:30 You know? What do you say? I mean, what do you say? And, and what about the guilt of US college grads who got to go to college? You know? Because basically, it was a poor, white and black kids war that is who was in the front line, and the college brats were not in the front line unless they were lucky enough to be in ROTC. And what they would do is, once they got their orders from ROTC, they take them, they came in the front line, and they come back in a body bag, 28 days later. SM: 42:53 This gets into the fact that people have written that 15 percent of boomers are truly active that were against war, gun violence protest, gun violence on movement, uh, so forth. They could be conservative or liberals, but they were activists during that time frame. WK: 43:08 I was never in, I was never in STS, um- SM: 43:10 But you went to protest them. WK: 43:13 I-I did. Earth Day. SM: 43:14 So, they were not part of that. WK: 43:16 Anti-war protest, absolutely. Um, Civil rights protest, absolutely. Um, and proud to have been part of all of it. SM: 43:26 It gets it gets into the real question of experience. And I may have mentioned this prior to, uh, setting up this interview, and that is, we took students to meet Edmund Muskie, and we had that time to meet with him. He had just gotten out of the hospital. And had a time to reflect on watching Ken Burns Civil War series. And somehow, in some way, when I asked this question to him about the lack of trust that the generation had in elected leaders and one in 1968 and we got into the whole issue of healing, and how many boomers do not trust their bosses still, as they have gotten older, it is this lack of trust mentality. He almost broke down and crying. He said, uh, I am going to basically say that we really have not healed since the Civil War. And he started talking about the Civil War generation going to their graves with bitterness for the other side. And then that threw a flame in me about the fact is, are the 76 million boomers, many have gone out and raised kids, had families, but they are all aging. Are they going to go to their graves with the same feelings that many of the Civil War generation had- was still the bitterness, um, lack of healing from within and-and some might say, “Who cares?” You know, you cannot heal for whole generation, but- WK: 44:29 There is a huge difference, though, you just put your finger on. He said that. He said that many of the people, many of the Civil War veterans, went to their graves with a bitterness, to the other to the other side. I-I worked in Atlanta, and, and I-I-I have said many times that I if I did not know any better, I would have thought that general Sherman's first name was "that damn", because that is what people would say, that damn Sherman. Uh, big difference, though, a very curious thing has happened with-with the Vietnam veteran. The Vietnam veteran is mad at the United States, he was mad at the VA, uh, he was mad at the army or navy or whatever service he was in. But what is very interesting is he is not mad at Vietnam anymore. He is not mad at the North Vietnamese. I cannot tell you the number of stories that I have seen about guys who have gone back and have broken bread with guys that, that they-they were their former prisoners or that kind of thing. They are a very curious thing has happened. We are not mad at them. We just, we just established, uh, with virtually no press at all. No press, uh, negative press at all. We just reestablished diplomatic relations with Vietnam. Our ambassador to Vietnam is a former Peoria. SM: 44:35 Mhm. Right-right. WK: 44:35 So, what is, what is confounding to me, and what is fascinating to me is the healing is all here. The healing in-in terms of being angry at the North Vietnamese and the South Vietnamese, I think the average person now says, “Okay, well, they are communist, and it is not our form of government.” And obviously, if you look around the world, it is, it is a form of government that is dying out. But nevertheless, their country, it is their goddamn country. I mean, how would we feel if Vietnamese showed up in Missouri? SM: 44:35 Mhm. WK: 44:47 You know? And how would we have felt if the North Vietnamese showed up to help this out? I mean, because that is what it was. So, what is interesting is the healing is-is virtually all internal. I have never been to the wall. I have driven by it, and when my time comes, I want to be there alone. Wow, I just do. I just want to be there alone, and, uh, because it is a very personal thing, and the war took its toll on every American family in different ways. And my mother would tell you that it is through God's goodness and mercy that neither of her sons got sent over there, and she may very well be right. But at the same time, we-we were, like everybody else, negatively affected by this debacle, wrapping itself in the flag, which I really, really, really mix in with his little American flag bow tie or, or, uh, lapel, you know, and with his you know. Now, all of all of his boys are best-selling authors, you know, but, uh, they in, in some of the dialog that was spoken in that Oval Office, which belongs to everybody, by the way, which, uh, Haldeman and Erin Lichtman and Dean seemed to forget for quite some time. You know, it was the end. All of us were the, you know, the kids and the commies and the commie you know, the commie influence and all that other stuff. And, uh, you know, Nixon, Nixon's kid did not go, at least. You got to say one thing for LBJ. LBJ is boys both went. SM: 48:01 That is right. WK: 48:03 Chuck Robb and Pat Nugent both went. Nixon's. You think Nixon's sons in law went, hell no. David Eisenhower, who I have an immense amount of respect for has got one of the great minds about history and is a delightful chap. He did not go. SM: 48:19 He served, but I think he was in the military. WK: 48:22 I do not even think, no, no, no, no, no [talking over each other] Really, whatever. And, and Eddie Cox was a Wall Street lawyer. Forget it. You know, we are real good at sending other people's kids to die. SM: 48:36 I guess. [mic noise] WK: 48:42 You know, maybe we are under underselling the value of Nixon. Nixon painted the picture to everybody who was over 35 and told them exactly what they wanted to hear. In that sense, he was not very different than Reagan, where the, the major difference between Nixon and Reagan- [intercom interruption]- realistically speaking, Nixon probably accomplished a hell a lot more than Reagan did. But the major difference between Reagan a-and Nixon is, is that, and it should not be important, but it is the personality, the warmth that the, um, you know, you just had a feeling with-with Reagan, that he was like, your father, you know, Nixon was like this guy. Nixon was like this annoying neighbor that you knew that he was right, but you just wish he would go away. And then after a while, you found out the guy was lying. And how typical of Nixon, how very typical of Nixon when presented with the facts of the Watergate burglary, which I do believe he knew nothing about until it was done, how very typical of Nixon to instead of just saying, guys, boy, did we blow it, I am going on TV tonight, and I am telling the American people that these people are associated with the Republican National Committee, and they are all fired, and we will not support them in any way, shape or form. They broke the law. And, you know, we win our elections fair and square. Would have been a one-night story. How typical of Nixon to turn it into a disaster. You know, to lie, to cheat, steal. You know. SM: 50:23 When you look at again at the boomers, uh, just you had had made a reference early on to the, uh, impact boomers had with respect to the civil rights movement. But, uh, your thoughts on how important the college students were in the protests on college campus with ending the war. I-I say this only in reference to an interview I had with Jack Smith, who said college students really did not have that much of an impact. The impact really took place when the body base came home and Middle America saw that the war had end. But, um, your thoughts on that at 15 percent of activists who were protesting the war and how much of an importance they were to ending it? WK: 50:58 Well, they were an ever-present force. Uh, I think that Jack's right. I think that, um, when there were several pivotal things in ending the war, uh, first of all, I do not think that one can underestimate the tremendous potency of Walter Cronkite in the 1960s, um, you know TV now you have got ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, um, CNN. In most homes, you had either Walter Cronkite or Huntley and Brinkley, but most homes, it was Walter Cronkite that certainly was ours. When W-Walter Cronkite made two visits to Vietnam, one of the early (19)60s and one in 1968 when Walter Cronkite came back in 1968 and basically opinionated that we do not know. I am not sure we are doing the right thing. Johnson said, Johnson said, that is the election. I am going to get beat. That is why he withdrew. Um, So I-I think that, um, the evening news stopped the Vietnam War. Now what portion of the evening news you choose to select as being responsible for that is up to you. I think that Jack Smith is right. Jack Smith's a veteran. Jack Smith is also a news man. And I think that, yeah, the, the nightly body count after a while, you would say, oh, well, you know the body count today was, we killed 5000 Vietnamese and only 300 Americans died. Well, more and more and more those 300 Americans were s-starting to show up on TV. We would see their bodies being carried off the airplanes. We would see their grieving families at the funerals. And more and more it came home, and more and more kids from more and more neighborhoods were coming back in those body bags. So yeah, Jack is, Jack is right in that sense, but I-I-I differ with him in the sense that the college thing was ever present. It was constant. It was there. I mean, I remember Northwestern University, which is like the bastion of Republican capitalism, Evanston, Illinois, um, was shut down. The main road, main road that goes through Northwestern University, of Sheridan Road was shut down right after Kent State, and there was a huge sign up over Sheridan Road that said something to the effect that, you know, go make your millions downtown, but remember the remember the kid, kids who died for-for the freedom of expression, and Kent State, I think, was when everybody started to say, Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Because I know even that-that is my parents said, “Wait a minute. They are shooting college students, unarmed college students. Come on.” And so, I think, I think Jack is right, that it, it was the daily procession of body bags, and it was the daily and also it was the daily student demonstrations. But I think that that the point at which this the war, any popularity of the war sunk to new levels was Kent State. When Kent-Kent State happened, that was it. Every American parent who had a kid off at college said that could be my kid, because they were just protesting the war. SM: 54:03 What, um, if there was a moment in your life, the most important moment in your life of, of this period, what was the what was the event? And now you are talking about your high school years and your college years and maybe your early adulthood years, but if there was one specific event that you could pinpoint and said, even to this day, it is hard. You might think about it. Uh, we might think about it every day, but it is one thing that you will never forget that had tremendous influence on your life. What was the event of that period? WK: 54:31 Chicago in 1968. Lived there, uh, at the time, I was working for a TV station there, uh, I saw these massive crowds. Uh, there was Civil War. It was Hubert Humphrey up in his suite at the Conrad Hilton kissing the TV, um, screen when they showed a picture of his wife, and it was, um, under educated under trained, overworked Chicago police officers’ downstairs who had been put on edge and on alert by the mayor, who had promised that, uh, by God, this convention was, um, going, to be orderly, and, uh it was that powder keg. And, uh, I-I am not sure, even though Humphrey lost, I-I am not sure that, uh, there is any one event in my mind that-that more closely illustrates what, what a near civil war there was, although Nixon exacerbated it, it was there already. Many of the protesters had come for the sure hell of it. I mean, many of them had come to, uh a-and I must say, l-let me play amateur psychologist for a second. I do not think it is an accident that the kids who were protesting the war were the same kids- He just won't answer that page. SM: 56:09 Mind if I [inaudible] WK: 56:12 No-no-no, I cannot, yes, I can, because you remember it too, but I cannot tell you how the life force was sucked out of an entire generation of young people on November the 22nd of 1963. This guy hit, and this is way, way, way before all this stuff about his mistresses and his ties to the mob and all this other stuff. I mean, think back to 1963, this guy was our hero. He was a war hero. He was good looking, he was charismatic, he was funny, he was witty, he was he, um, we know now that that even though he bumbled his way through, you know, the first couple, the first year or so, that he actually became quite an astute, uh, President toward the tail end of his, his presidency. Uh, through-through sheer dumb luck and determination, he, um, he capably handled the Cuban Missile Crisis, and at the time in which he was killed, his popularity was just through the ceiling. The thing that was unique about him was the fact that he was so appealing to young people because Ike was like your grandfather. Ike was this bald guy who won the war. We were not alive for the war, so thanks Ike for winning the war and keeping us from speaking German. Um, but Ike was and Ike was, I-I think history is judged. Ike was just a real mediocre president. Um, he was okay, but he was not great. Ike lied. Ike lied about the you too. SM: 57:42 That is right. WK: 57:43 But Ike was like somebody. Ike was your father's president. Jack Kennedy was our president. And when that life ended, I think for many, many, many of us, there was a need to express just the outrage, the anger. Um, we did it in good ways. Um, for example, I think that, that it is no accident that, that Jack Kennedy dies in November of 1963 in January and February of 1964 Th-The Beatles come to the United States of America, and in the phenomenon that nobody has ever seen before or since, just totally mesmerize American youth, because basically and, and take them out of their intense grief over the loss of this, of this guy that we love, and allow us to-to live, to have fun, because they were so fun and they were so funny. And so-s-so very talented. And we were influenced by their music, because their music transcended just it went from-from silly love songs to really, you know, to meaningful stuff. And they just, they wrote all kinds of new chapters about music and everything. And we were with them every step of their way. So, then we get to 1968 and in an April, Dr. King is killed, and which is, you know, a kick, kick in the face to every, not only every African American, but-but every American. And two months later, two, three months later, Bobby Kennedy's killed. So, with that as a background, the Convention was in August. Bobby Kennedy died June 4, and we had hoped that he would be elected, that he would, um, be a suitable replacement for his brother. He seemed to have almost, not quite, almost, the qualities of Jack. Nobody had the qualities of Jack, but he was a pretty good substitute. And, um, then he was assassinated. And so, by the time that convention rolled around, those kids were angry. Those kids were angry because basically, as the line went, all the good ones are gone. They kill all the good ones. And it seemed, and it seemed to be true. And so, they would shove people like Hubert Humphrey down our throats, or Richard Nixon. They would take all these old guys, and they would shove them down our throats and say, a-and there was no choice there. I mean, it was just like, you know, all these old farts and no, and nobody was saying, you know, Richard Nixon was saying he had a secret plan to stop the Vietnam War, which was such a secret, he kept it a secret for six years. SM: 1:00:15 [chuckling] Sure. WK: 1:00:16 Um, so I-I think you cannot talk about the boomer generation without talking about, in my opinion, the most significant besides the Vietnam War itself, the most significant disaster to the boomer generation was, uh, the assassination of Kennedy. SM: 1:00:33 You think today's young people when we say, uh, Ike was my father's president, today's young people say, well, JFK was your president, so I will say the same thing. WK: 1:00:43 Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. SM: 1:00:44 So, so it has no linkage at all. WK: 1:00:46 Well, yeah, but see, it gets back to the trust thing. It gets back to the trust thing because they, they cannot look at Bill Clinton and say “He is mine.” I mean, he can be on MTV from now until the cows come home, and he can he has a full head of gray hair, and he has got a teenage daughter, and he is the first baby boomer president and all that other stuff. And young people can say, well, he is my president, but you know what? They do not. They do not like him. I mean, they like him compared to the other old farts. I mean, compared to Bob Dole. SM: 1:01:12 [laughing] WK: 1:01:13 But-but you do not hear kids. You do not hear young people talking about Bill Clinton the way we talked about Kennedy. Um, he may be able to relate to young people, but basically, I think that people, young and old see him as kind of a cynical politician who will say anything to get elected, and now he is okay. I mean, he is enjoying, I mean, we are all enjoying this tremendous crest of, uh, of prosperity and-a-and I would think that he has got to have something to do with it, but the fact of the matter is, he is certainly no hero to the young the way Kennedy was to us. Um, and, and the Kennedy assassination cannot be underplayed as a pivotal, integral thing in forming what is called the boomer Generation, probably the first of, uh, the first leg of, of the table, I would say, um, you know, there was, there were the assassinations, starting with John. There was the Civil Rights Movement. And there was Vietnam. SM: 1:02:15 This gets right into the next question [inaudible mumbling], how much more time do we have, we okay, yeah? WK: 1:02:22 15 minutes or so. SM: 1:02:23 Okay, um, [inaudible] just take a pause here [talking over each other]. Yep. WK: 1:02:34 Set the course for future events and for the calamity that was to become the (19)60s. No doubt about it. No doubt about it. In the fact that most people look at the Warren report is, is fiction just exacerbates it. I mean, who killed him is really secondary, the fact that he was- SM: 1:02:55 got very general but you have heard this before in the best history books are written 25 to 50 years from now. What would be the lasting legacy of the boomer generation? In your thoughts, what is the lasting legacy? And how will historians treat us knowing that the best histories are 50 years after an event has taken place? WK: 1:03:14 Oh, I think they are probably they will look at it, look at us as intrinsically selfish because we did not win any wars, um, you know, we did not build the atom bomb, we did not build Empire State Buildings. Um, you know, basically all we did was we caused a hell of a lot of trouble and a lot of rockets in the 1960s and then we all became filthy rich in the 1980s under Reagan. Um, and I think that that would be a tremendous disservice to, uh, an entire generation of young men and women. Um, first of all, I think that there were a lot of people like me. We have either grandparents or great grandparents who came over from the old country. All of our parents, the single defining moment of their life was World War Two. For many of our parents, the second most defining moment of their life was, uh, the depression. So, these are people who knew hard times. Most of us did not know hard times. So, when you are worried about how you are going to feed your family? You do not have the luxury of worrying about whether or not a little a little black girl can drink out of a water fountain in Birmingham, Alabama. Once those needs were met, once the war was won, once America became prosperous, we had a relatively quiet period of time. You know, we went. We went basically 10-12, years with-with nothing other than the constant gnawing threat of the so-called Cold War, which at times would eat up, but basically i-it was just, it was just that it was a cold war. So, then we come along and, I-I swear, Steve, I-I think chapter one in this book is JFK's killing that is slapped every [inaudible intercom] every kid in America, and we became, then, at that point, more than just passive observers. And as, as things heated up and as we went to college, and colleges should be a bastion for activism, there has got to be a bastion for activism. I remember very clearly when I was emceeing that this very subject at West Chester, how most of the professors who were boomers, who are our age, were talking about. Well, it is not my job to get you a job. My job is to expand your mind. My job is to present some idealism. My job is to-to let you know, you know that once upon a time in the civil rights movement, you know, we were here, and now we are here, and in the women's studies movement, you know, this is where we were, and this is where we are, and they were all kind of lofty idealists from the 1960s while I understood perfectly what they were saying, I could not help but notice there was an enormous amount of anger in this, in the auditorium of kids saying, screw you! I do not know how to run a computer, [laughter] you know. O-or I do not have a job yet, you know. So, so take your (19)60s and stick it, because I do not have a job so and-and of course, they are all tenured professors, so they do not have to worry about a job for the rest of their life. There has got to be a place. There has got to be a safe place. And this is why I feel personally, and this is off the record. This is why I feel so sad about my son, because- SM: 1:06:39 Mhm. WK: 1:06:41 -we were also, you know, you talk about the college campuses a-as a as a nest of rebellion, we were really also the first generation of Americans who went to college. I mean, our parents, our parents really did not go to college. I mean, I-I am fortunate in the fact that both of my parents did. But I think if you take the average person, um, the average person did not go, I mean, you went to high school, and you went out and worked, and, um, most of our fathers came home from World War Two, and many, many of them, my own, included, like did a master's. When he went in, came back, got a second master's, and then got his doctorate. Um, many of them had gotten their butt kicked enough in the service to know that basically, the only true vehicle for success and the only true vehicle for getting out was, uh, education. So, but there has got to be a safe place for young people to express idea ideas, no matter how radical they are. Um, and, and the college campuses, obviously, I mean, not every campus was Berkeley, but [stuttering] and ironically enough, a lot of people would say that Kent State was not that radical of a school at all. SM: 1:06:54 Yeah. It is a very conservative school. WK: 1:07:42 Yeah. SM: 1:07:43 Most of the, everybody was surprised that that is where it hit- WK: 1:07:54 Yeah. SM: 1:07:55 -knowing th-that in Ohio, Ohio University was the most liberal of the colleges at that time that had the greatest problems, because I worked at OU, um, in the mid (19)70s, and Ron Kovack was actually kicked off the campus, and actually was arrested in Athens when he came there, and Vietnam Veterans Against the War and, uh, and then, of course, Ohio State was, geez, they had tremendous turmoil. So, Kent State was the big surprise that happened there. But he thought if it hit, if it had happened, it would have happened at OU or, um Ohio State University, because, they, they were, uh, hotbeds of turmoil. WK: 1:08:26 But I think that history may judge us as selfish. Um, history may judge us as, as not as altruistic as the current generation. And I think that there might be some degree of accuracy today. Uh, history may judge us as, I think, uh, as non-spiritual, and I think that there is also a degree of accuracy there. SM: 1:08:43 Have, have boomers carried their passion? Have boomers, I mean we are talking 15 percent of that active, and then, uh, 85 have the boomers carried the passion that was supposedly their-their most, best quality they possess? WK: 1:09:00 No, but I do not know w-whether that says [intercom] I do not know whether that is a function of the baby boomers being a disappointing generation, or whether that is just a function of age. Um, we are all very different and very different at 48 than I was at 18. You know, I have lived my life 30 years, and, um, I have actually been known to on rare occasions, vote for a Republican. Um- SM: 1:09:25 I am shocked. WK: 1:09:25 Yeah, well, WK: 1:09:26 I do not admit it to too many people, but, no, I-I mean, I vote for the person. I-I just [inaudible] I am, I-I guess one of the things that I carry over from the (19)60s is I-I am an independent. I cannot vote in primaries because I am I am registered as an independent. Um, but I think that probably people would say we, we got to the 80s, we made our money, we sold out. Um, a-and probably now the only way in which the true, the true dipstick of, of telling whether or not we had any effect is basically the way our children turn out. I am proud, proudest of my children, because I know that they would never, I know that all the "isms" are things that are not in their vocabulary. They will not be sexist, they will not be racist, they will not be in any way, shape or form, do anything to hurt another human being, um, just for the hell of it, or because it makes their life easier. SM: 1:09:26 [laughing] WK: 1:10:16 Yes, she does, yeah. SM: 1:10:16 Uh, last question before I give them just some general names for your responses and we will close the interview, and that is this issue of empowerment. Um, most students when they come to college, even today, when I was, uh, young and when you were young, hopefully, one of the goals is developing self-esteem in young people. That they have self-esteem they go on the world knowing that they can speak up if they see something wrong, like you already mentioned, your daughter does. Obviously, she has self-esteem. But, but the quality that a lot of young people do not have, and that is one of the goals of higher education, is not only preparing them for the world out there, hopefully they will continue to want to learn beyond, uh, just what they learn in the classroom, and that they have self-esteem and will be, uh, willing to speak their minds when the time comes forth. So, the question I am asking you is this: empowerment was a very important, um, adjective characteristics of the boomers. They felt empowered. Many of them did because they protested the war, they got involved in civil rights movement. And yes, many of them really bugged a lot of people. They, uh, a lot of us did it just for the sake of doing it. But there were a lot of since- there is a lot of sincerity there, even Vietnam veterans will say that, uh, if they, they are not so much upset with the people who were sincerely against the war. It is those people that tried to evade the draft and did all these other things, but there were sincere people out there. Empowerment. Has that concept of empowerment carried on into the boomer’s life as they have gotten older? In other words, they continue to speak up. And has that been transferred into their children, this sense of empowerment? WK: 1:11:40 Let me go back to Dr. Spock. Um, the, the pervading sentiment when- if you are a boomer, you grew up in the 1950s in the early 60s, the worst thing that you could do as a parent is to have a kid with a big head. The worst thing that you could do is have your kid be, uh, arrogant or conceited, or think that he or she was too good. So especially i-in-in coming from a Catholic school background, uh, if you did something, well, it was if it was acknowledged, it was acknowledged minimally. Um, you would look a-at my family, for example, and you would say, of the four of us, we have all done very well in our chosen careers. Uh, and you would say, gee whiz, well, your parents must have, have put you out in the world with a really good feeling about yourself. And I would say that is just simply not the case, um, nor is it the case of virtually anybody I know. Because I think that the responsible parent in 1958 or 59 was thinking that, basically, I do not want Johnny to have a big head. I want, I want to be able to control my kid. Um, I think, obviously, on some level, my family and every other family felt that they had if I work hard enough. I mean, one thing that we got from our parents was this idea the work ethic. I mean, success is 99 percent perspiration, 1 percent inspiration. I think that that came from our families. But I know very few people who were born and raised in the 1940s and 50s and 60s who came out of their family experience really feeling great about themselves. And I think a lot of what happened in college was, first of all, no more rules. Um, I mean, you had to show up for class. Uh, you were introduced to liberal thinkers in the in the person of many of the professors who taught us the classes. You were introduced to other kids who, um, it, it, it just was not high school anymore. But I think that there is a real it is a real misnomer to think that we were, that we came into the college world arrogant. I think that we all came into college world very frightened. And I think that we drew, we drew upon one another for our strength, and only in I mean, I-I went to college. First two years of college, I went to a city college, Chicago City College, and I began very quickly became act-active as Student Government, and it was in in being active with student government, I felt sensational about myself, probably for the first time in my life, because I was, uh, you know, when i-in grade school, in high school, I was usually, you know, in trouble for this, that or the other thing, little petty stuff, but-but-but never, you know, they could never this student leader that I was not college, and I felt terrific about myself. And I felt not only terrific about myself because I was student government officer, but I felt terrific about myself because of the people that I was with and the power that they gave me, and we all empowered one another. Then when I left the city college, which is a much more transient atmosphere for a permanent four-year institution, I was there, I-I felt good. The thing that really put me over the top, though, was getting my first job when I was working in this industry. Then I felt okay, I have arrived. But I think it is real misnomer to think that people went to college with-with big egos. I think that is nonsense. I think I think we drew upon each other's strength, and I think that if somebody said, hey, wait a minute. Look at this idiot, Bull Connor with these fire hoses, shooting these, you know, shooting these poor, you know, black protesters down in Birmingham. I think that if it came from our parents, it was one thing. If it came from another kid in the dorm, it was a whole other thing, then it really meant something. So, I-I do not think, I think, quite frankly, one of the je- one of the major, uh, one of the major shortcomings of the World War Two generation is the idea that, that, uh, oh, you do not want your kid to have a big head. Um, I think kids with big heads do not have problems. Kids with big heads do not wind up on-on psychiatrist couches. Um- SM: 1:15:40 That whole it is like trying to discuss ego, or that whole period couple years back, when they are talking about folks are coming out about if you have too much ego, that is bad. And, you know, it is like, well, you got to have ego, because that is confidence in yourself. WK: 1:15:53 Yeah, so much ego, it is not bad. There, there are people who, deep down inside, hate themselves, but they put on this arrogant, t-this kind of sachet of arrogance, um, because they are covering up for a deep-seated inferiority complex. There is a very different it is a whole different thing. I mean, even Christian teaching. I mean even if you and, and, and Christ has been so maligned and so-so misquoted, or, or the ideas that he espoused are so misquoted, um, if you looked at, at the heart of the Christian teaching, I mean, you know, um, Christ said, love one another as you love yourself. And, um, so I-I think that-that is a tremen- I think that is a tremendous misnomer, you know that these kids were all just arrogant kids looking for a place to hang out. SM: 1:16:39 I am going to ask, uh, this question here, which is basically throwing out some names. Just get your initial [shuffling sound] response to them, whether [intercom interruption], uh, just your thoughts on them and, uh whether they were impactful on uh- WK: 1:16:55 Mhm. SM: 1:16:55 America. First two, obviously Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden. WK: 1:16:59 Uh, Fonda, in the sense that she even to the people who are against the war, I think she crossed the line. When she got on, uh, Hanoi radio, there was a sense, even within the anti-war movement, I think that there was a sense of right and wrong. And I think that, that when she went on radio Hanoi and urged American soldiers to give up. I think that there was a sense that she, she had really crossed a line, um, and that she has not redeemed herself with her spelled body and her tremendous, um, workout stuff and [stuttering] punishment of all punishments, marrying Ted Turner. But I think that realistically speaking, I think th-that she, she, um, she crossed a line, I think with Hayden. Hayden's a really bright guy. Um, Hayden, Hayden, Ruben, all the guys who in, in the, uh leadership of the movement, I-I do not think that they ever had the mainstream college kids. I think they made, there was a lot of smoke and mirrors, but, uh, Hayden, I think, has made a significant contribution. [intercom interruption] As a, you know, as a California legislator, and, and, and to this day, you got to give the guy credit him and he still activist. He is still a liberal. He is still getting his ears pinned in you know, Richard Rierden, I guess, just kicked his butt in the election, or was about to kick his butt in the election, but, but [intercom interruption] Hayden di-did not become, uh, um, Jerry Rubin. Hayden never became a stock broker. SM: 1:18:27 Yeah, that goes right into the next two, which is Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman. And I-I prefaced the Abbie Hoffman question by well aware that he killed himself several years back over in Bucks County. Yeah, manic depressive. He had $2,500 in the bank, [chuckling, stuttering] the social media said he had given all this money away to causes yet, and he had written a note on his deathbed that basically stated that no one is listening to me anymore, so I am not going to live anymore. And so- WK: 1:18:40 Oh, he was a manic depressive. I do not think anybody listened to him in the first place. I think he was the clown prince of the movement. Um, He was, I-I do not think that people said, well, what does Abby say? I think that people were much more in tune with Ruben and with some of the other people who are more serious than that. No, Abby was the outrageous guy, Abby was the guy who wrote the book, steal this book. I mean, Abby, Abby was every movement must have its clown prince, and Abby was the clown prince of the anti-war movement. SM: 1:19:15 But do you think, and before we get the next names here, that there are many boomers that may have continued to keep their idealism as they got older and whatever field they went into, and then, though they see that, even though he may have been the clown prince or whatever perceptions might be, that, wait a minute, today's college students are not listening or care as much about civil rights issues and racism and so forth as we did - the passion again - WK: 1:19:37 Because they think it is done. SM: 1:19:39 Yeah, they think it is done, or all- how about some of the other issues that so no one is listening anymore, and we are, we are getting older, and we are going to pass on and so they are going to be raising their kids in a couple years. So that, that, you know, I-I only saw that article, not so much caring about Abby Hoffman as I did. Was that symbolic of many boomers and their attitudes as they are approaching 50? WK: 1:19:58 No, because I think that he was caught in a time warp. Um, you find, I think that you find that with a lot of people, you find that with a lot of actors, for example, that th-they, they do one thing and they do one thing well, and when they are asked to show some versatility, they just cannot do it. So, I think that in every offense case, Abby was reliving the (19)60s, even though it was the (19)90s. And I think that he was really kind of caught in a time warp, um, you know, Hayden's, I mean, you have to give Hayden credit, at least for changing over the times. But he is still dedicated to, you know, mostly liberal environmental type causes. SM: 1:20:21 Uh, some of the Presidents, um, just, just give real quick commentary on Lyndon Johnson, John Kennedy, Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford, just, just some brief thoughts on all four of them. WK: 1:20:38 Okay, well, Lyndon Johnson was the guy who put the pedal to the metal about Vietnam. I mean, history has shown him. Um, Lyndon Johnson was, as most men are, a real paradox. Um, he was enormously skilled at playing the political game. It was Lyndon Johnson. [intercom interruption] It was Lyndon Johnson who got through most of John Kennedy's legislation. Posthumously. Uh, it was Lyndon Johnson who put through the, um, Civil Rights Bill, which had just been in the planning stages when Kennedy was assassinated. Um, it was also Lyndon Johnson who, b-before John Kennedy's body was in the ground, the night of Kennedy's assassination in the White House, called together the Joint Chiefs of S-Staff and said, boys, get ready, because we are going to step things up in Vietnam. Um, I think Lyndon Johnson was the was the quintessential southern politician. Uh, did it well, uh, realized by the time he died that the Vietnam had been a huge mistake. SM: 1:21:35 Kennedy and, uh, Richard Nixon? WK: 1:21:36 Y-you know, John Kennedy, this is, this is 1963 versus 1997 when we know, you know, he was a man of tremendous flaws and had an eye for women, um, I-I think he was idealism personified. I think that he was the first person to actively reach out to young people, including those who were even too young to vote. Uh, he was the fi-first person to, uh, bring up the, the notion of, uh, things like the Peace Corps of, uh, of government is what you make it, um, and you must make it. And everybody has an obligation. And not just the you know, not just what they told you the draft board that you got an obligation to serve. Kennedy said you got an obligation to, to serve and to give back. And I think that, I think the fact that he came from so much wealth and power added credence to his argument. Uh, and as I said, and I cannot underestimate this enough, I think that his assassination was the pivotal turning point in the 1960s I think that day came and we just went in a whole different direction than we would have gone had he had lived. SM: 1:22:40 Nixon and Ford. WK: 1:22:42 Nixon probably will go down as the most paradoxical of presidents of modern times. Um, you know, ultimately, ultimately getting a peace in Vietnam, ultimately opening up relationships with China, uh, ultimately, I mean, bussing was actually Nixon. Nixon, it was the Nixon administration that proposed bussing is an equitable solution to-to, uh, racial disharmony. Um, but you cannot divorce yourself in the end. And I think that the man was, uh, a very complex, very untrusting, um, very, very paranoid guy who was a real ultimately, toward the end, was a real, dangerous guy. Uh, Jerry Ford, [stuttering] not to use the- to abuse the analogy, but Jerry Ford is the second-string quarterback. Jerry Ford was the guy that you call him when your first-string quarterback just broke his arm. Um, a decent, honorable man who had represented the conservative Grand Rapids, Michigan district quite well for quite some time, um, who, under the circumstances, made a, uh, made a noble attempt at healing, and I think, did okay. Um, pardoning Nixon caused him the election, and it should have. SM: 1:24:06 The, uh, some of the civil rights leaders you made reference to how important Dr. King was in, in your life, but your thoughts on Dr. King and the Black Power advocates, Huey Newton's Eldridge cleavers- WK: 1:24:17 See the problem with Dr. King? The problem with Dr. King is not unlike the problem with Nixon and Ford, um, that you have got a real strong number one and there is, there is really no clearly designated number two. I mean, in Atlanta, I got to know a lot more about Dr. Abernathy, and Ralph Abernathy was a good guy, and it was really unfortunate that toward the end of his life, he saw fit to, uh, in his memoirs make some reference to Dr. King's supposed infidelity, which I thought is- was a cheap shot, and, and un-un-unlike the class that Dr. Abernathy usually showed. But the problem is that, you know, there are damn few Martin Luther Kings, um, and, and Ralph Abernathy certainly was not one of them, and I do not think that Jesse Jackson, at that particular point had the wisdom, uh, or the maturity to take over the mantle of, uh, the movement. I was disappointed, frankly, getting to know Andrew Young, uh, and what a magnificent man he is. Uh, Andrew Young could have stepped in and taken over, if the movement had not fallen into-into disarray. It is too bad that he was not clearly designated number two, because I think that Andrew Young was and is uh, uh, a very, very special human being. SM: 1:25:37 Black Power advocates? WK: 1:25:42 You know, Dr. King used to always say, you know, peace through non-violence. But I sometimes wonder if a lot of that civil rights legislation and a lot of that, uh, housing for people, and the things, the kinds of things that the Black Panthers were providing, would have been provided if it were not for the Black Panthers. Uh, in Chicago, uh, Mark Clark and Freddy Hampton were two black panthers, two of the leaders of the movement, and they were shot. They were shot to death, and they were slaughtered. And every piece of forensic evidence indicates that, uh, that is what happened. I mean, they did not. They were not reaching for guns. They were one of them was nude. They were both asleep, and there was a sheriff's raid at four o'clock in the morning, and both these guys were slaughtered. I think the black the black panthers, had a lot going for them, um, and they certainly lit a fire under Congress's tail to do something about some of the problems that they were addressing. Um, Eldridge Cleaver turned out to be a real disappointment because of his skirmishes with the law. Shooting judges, raping women, um, is not the way to empower oneself. Um, but I think that many of the goals of the black peace tone nation were, were commendable, and I think that in many ways they, um, just as the Muslim, uh, nation does now, meets very real and very fundamental goals. So, the very real and fundamental needs of the of the minority community. SM: 1:27:10 Goes right into Malcolm X, died in (19)65. WK: 1:27:17 Well, Malcolm X is, is a fascinating man, because, like so many other great men, he was not born to greatness, but, um, obviously as a person, as a Caucasian person, it is easy for me to say, well, the thing I really respect the most about Malcolm X is that after his pilgrimage to Mecca, he chose to see that Islam and, and Allah is color blind, and that all men and women of good faith who follow the Will of what he referred to as Allah, as we-we would call God. Uh, all-all of us are God's children, and that that espousing that philosophy ultimately probably cost him his life. Um, I think Malcolm X is one of the most important African and probably next to Dr. King is probably the most important African American of the 20th century in terms of leaders of their people. SM: 1:28:06 Timothy Leary, Ralph Nader, and again, I am picking these names out because they were of the time. WK: 1:28:11 Timothy Leary, too-too kooky to be mainstream. Tune in, uh, turn and drop out, too kooky to be mainstream. Uh, Ralph Nader, um, an interesting growth out of the 1960s basically, um, you know, General Motors spent 1000s and 1000s of dollars trying to, to get something on this guy, you know, find an old girlfriend, or find, you know, did he pay his taxes? Or, you know, do something to besmirch him. And he was totally, completely beyond reproach, um, and, and was squeaky, squeaky clean. And I think that consumerism was in the consumer movement was an interesting offshoot of the 1960s, um, that we were not going to take the same we were not going to buy cars that, that were bad cars, you know, and we were not going to buy appliances that would fall apart. Um, an interesting offshoot of the (19)60s, no more than that. SM: 1:29:03 How about, uh, George Wallace, and I am just mentioning the Hubert Humphrey and Barry Goldwater. WK: 1:29:09 Okay, George Wallace, uh, typical southern governor, just more of a loud mouth. Uh, his metamorphosis as a human being has been interesting to watch. Barry Goldwater was scary. He was a scary dude. He was a scary guy. Uh, I know he was the grand old statesman of Republican politics, but he was talking about dealing with Vietnam War in terms of using nuclear weapons. And that, to me, is scary. And, uh, it was, I was delighted to see LBJ win that one, um, as matter of fact, was working in the Young Democrats at the time, um, and who was the third one? SM: 1:29:43 Hubert Humphrey. WK: 1:29:45 You know, Hubert Humphrey and LBJ are almost interchangeable. Hubert Humphrey was, was an old Senate hand from the, uh, from Minneapolis who was a halfway decent vice president, but probably would have been a real mediocre president, but God compared to Nixon. I, uh, I do not know. We will never know. He did not win. So, Spear Wagner. Spiro Wagner was one of the most polarizing forces in America 19- in the in the 20th century, um, the, the spearhead of Nixon's attack against young people. Uh, A real, real, real scary guy, probably the scariest guy in the Nixon administration, be-because he was the one who forced older people to say, you were there with us or against us. Nixon did not do it as much as Agnew did. SM: 1:30:28 Muhammad Ali. WK: 1:30:30 Um, entertainer, um certainly one of the one of the preeminent figures, that of the of the 19-1960s but, uh, in terms of his lasting impact on culture, I do not think he has much. Entertainer. A magnificent boxer, um, an interesting, interesting, interesting man, probably, certainly the most interesting man that ever fought. But that is not saying a lot. SM: 1:30:58 Some of the women leaders, Gloria Steinem and, uh, Betty Friedan. WK: 1:30:58 You have to understand the women's movement, and I say this basically, having grown up in the Midwest and having lived in the South for five years, the women's movement was and is and always, probably will be perceived as an Eastern phenomenon. Now, on some level, every parent wants their daughter to be able to be the president united states. So, it was accepted to that regard, and on some level, they are all to be commended for being bringing to our attention the tremendous inequity that existed in our culture. But I do not think that there was ever a groundswell of support for the people wound around the block to get Gloria Steinem's autograph on a book, or, or Betty Friedan's autograph on a book. I think that they were thoughtful. They were thinkers. But I think that there was a, there was a perception that they were Eastern liberal thinkers who basically had a germ of a good idea, but, but, uh, it basically came from privilege to begin with. You know, tell-tell it to a woman in Kentucky who's a single mother raising three kids. You know, it te-tell her about the women's movement, and it was that, it was that kind of- SM: 1:32:07 Eugene McCarthy. WK: 1:32:10 Um, kind of a sign of how far reaching our, our hatred of the Vietnam War went, that we were willing to listen to this kind of non-entity of a senator. Uh, just it was one sole purpose, and his one sole platform was to get us out of Vietnam. SM: 1:32:27 And, uh, Robert Kennedy. WK: 1:32:28 As, as I said, Robert Kennedy was the great promise. Uh, Robert Kennedy was hopefully going to be the president that his brother was not allowed to be. Uh, Robert Kennedy was everything we believed in. Uh, He was progressive. He was not as charismatic as his brother. He had more of a temper than his brother, but he was the one who stared down Jimmy Hoffa, and he stared down George Wallace, and he was the one who sent the National Guard into the south, and he was a tough customer. And I think tha-that there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that had he have lived, he would have been elected in 1968 no doubt about it. SM: 1:33:01 How about George McGovern? WK: 1:33:03 George McGovern is a wonderful, uh, capable southern [stuttering] senator who represented South Dakota well, but again, falls into the McCarthy mold, where it was just- we were so desperate for anybody to say, let us end this damn war that that we settle for is very, very, very decent man. SM: 1:33:19 And the cu- finally, the, the people that are affiliated with Watergate, the John Deans of the world, the John Mitchells of the world, the, uh, group that were involved in the Watergate. WK: 1:33:32 They got caught. They got caught. John Dean sold out. He got caught. He kept a plea. He turned on his boss, and basically, he sang his song so he would not have to go to prison for more than a short period of time. Of that whole group, the ones I had the most respect for are Coulson and, uh, Liddy. Coulson, because I think time has [stuttering] time has certainly indicated that his conversion is very genuine. [mic cuts] I, um, I-I think in, in Charles Carlson's case, uh, time is- has proven that his-his conversion to Christianity is very genuine, and, uh, and has literally consumed his life. He is very comfortable with it. And I think Liddy in the sense that, uh, just as just as the left head is heavy Hoffman. The right now has Gordon Liddy, except Gordon Liddy is a real smart guy, he is a former FBI agent. He is a lawyer, and, you know, he is fond of saying, I am out because of he is a convicted felon. Uh, I am not allowed to own a gun. But Mrs. Liddy is very well armed. [laughter] Uh, Gordon Liddy. I mean, sit in a room with Gordon Liddy and talk to him. I mean, just he, when he was working for Nixon, he stood against everything I believed in, but he is a, charm, funny, uh witty- SM: 1:34:52 Got a book out, or he had a book out. WK: 1:34:54 Uh, and, and the thing I respect the most about him is he had ample opportunity to reduce his sentence, um, and he stuck by it, and he did every single hour. SM: 1:35:08 Um, Robert McNamara, WK: 1:35:11 Oh, this, this, I am getting closer to death, and I finally realized the error of my ways. So, I am so sorry I find, um, very disingenuous. Um, these guys knew what they were doing. SM: 1:35:24 Woodward and Bernstein, how important were they, names just stand out? WK: 1:35:31 They stand out. So, you know, it, it could be Smith and Jones. It could be, you know, Glick and Herman. Um, they stand out because they were very tenacious in a story that ultimately brought down the presidency. So, I think that time has shown Bob Woodward to be a decent author, a well, well written author, uh, one who still gets the good stuff. Um, some of his work is flawed, but a lot of it is good. I liked his, uh, his book on Clinton's first year, uh, the agenda is excellent. The book and the Supreme Court the brethren is very good. I-I think Carl Bernstein has not necessarily distinguished himself in the field of journalism at all. He, he, his flirtation with television was rather disappointing. His book about the Pope, uh, would that he co-authored, I forget who he c-co-authored it with, uh, was fairly well received, um, but I do not think that either one of them has necessarily turned out to be Pulitzer material. SM: 1:36:26 Um, the last two and then I am done, um, Dwight Eisenhower, and then the impact of the music that it had on the boomer generation. WK: 1:36:35 Okay, Dwight Eisenhower as a president or as a general? SM: 1:36:39 Just, just as boomers might think of him. WK: 1:36:41 Oh, well, the boomers would, would, would totally not care that he won the war or that he was the, the, um, commander in chief of the allied forces. Uh, but the one thing that he has in common with that job and also with the presidency, is a politician. He was a politician during World War Two, and he was a politician, uh, during the eight years that he was in office, he was America's grandfather. He was, I mean, how in the hell would you vote for? I mean, I can remember my parents having this conversation because they were lifelong Democrats, but voting for Eddie Stevenson, who was this aristocratic, very well spoken, um, you know, divorced man for presidency, you know, as opposed to Ike won the war, you know. And Ike was our grandfather. Ike told us, ever there, there now, everything will be okay. And, and by and large, from 1952 to 1960 everything was okay. Um, and then the last one was, who? WK: 1:37:38 Music, the music of the year, the [stuttering] Jimmy Hendrix- I do not think- SM: 1:37:38 all the great musicians and the music of that era. WK: 1:37:40 I think that the, um, the question about the music is always going to be which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did the music stimulate change, or did the change stimulate the music? And I think the answer is not to cop out, but I think the answer is both. Um, I go back to what I said about the Beatles, and I think that the Beatles were the most revolutionary thing about the 1960s and, and the fact that their-their popularity originally might owe, be owing in some fashion to the death of John Kennedy, may be an interesting sidebar, but the fact of the matter is th-that that not only did they own the 1960s but basically they ushered in an era were that anything, anything that was done by a British artist, just went right to the top of the chart, uh and some of it was terrific. I mean, you know, I mean, they ushered the way in for Led Zeppelin, and they offered the, you know, Jimi Hendrix was, was a guy with a lot of promise to he had a big drug problem that took his life. Janis Joplin was this kind of raggedy, but earthy and, and gutsy and ballsy, uh, funky singer who had, you know, same thing, she had a drug problem, and it ultimately took her life. Um, 1960s had more than its share of goofy love songs. I mean, not everything was, was the Eve of Destruction by Barry McGuire, you know, but, uh, certainly music played a significant role in it. You know, toward the latter part, much of the Beatles’ stuff addressed what was going on in culture. Um, there were certain artists like Joan Baez, who was not that popular, but, but whose music almost exclusively, uh, addressed what was going on in culture. Uh, interestingly enough, the crossover black artists, the Motown black artists, were the ones who would sing about, you know, things like love, universal stuff. Love, you left me. You broke my heart. Uh, where did our love go? The way you do, the things you do, things like that, but, but in that, in the quietness of that simplicity, there was a real revolution being born, white kids were really getting into black music. Instead of listening to Pat Boone sing fats, Domino's songs, or Elvis Duke, God knows how many songs that were originally done by black artists, there were now starting to hear black music by black artists and-and so in his own way [intercom interruption] In his own way, you, you have to give also a, a, a mention in the, in the 1960s to Barry Gordy, who's, who's personally a hero of mine, I-I one of my favorite interviews, if not the favorite in-interview of all time, because, um, it was not revolutionary music that sent the white kids to the to the record stores. It was, it was the universality of music. And then later on, groups like the temptations would do songs like ball of confusion. And later on, [intercom interruption] then and, and later on, uh, people like [intercom interruption] that Elias is a busy guy, uh later on, as these groups became very, very well established, they would, they would then bring in, you know, the social consciousness to the music. But originally it was all just, you know, it was, it was love songs, it was, you know, catchy tunes. And so, I mean, you really have to give you credit to Barry Gordon. SM: 1:41:00 I know big Marvin Gaye also did that, uh, controversial album, What’s Going On. WK: 1:41:04 What's going on, What's Going On. SM: 1:41:05 Got him in trouble too. WK: 1:41:06 What's Going On makes the hair on my knuckles stand up. Because basically what had happened was what Marvin had done really great rhythm and blues, bubble, not bubblegum, because Motown was never bubblegum. It always had an air of sophistication to it. But Marvin had done really great dance type music. And then just when Tammy Terrell died, who was a singing partner so often, uh, he just disappeared for a year, and he came back with What's going on. And What's going on was, o-oh, Barry Gordon hated it, you know, he hated it because he thought it did not have any sales potential and-and the fact of the matter is that Marvin had grown tremendously as an artist. And, uh, What's Going On was exactly the music for 1971. SM: 1:41:46 That is right. WK: 1:41:47 It was a hit. It was exactly what it was. SM: 1:41:50 I was here in Philly working for my brother in the summertime, for, uh, when I was in college, and I went over, I think somebody brought that out. I could not wait to play this. WK: 1:41:57 Yeah. SM: 1:41:57 Just every song on it brought goose bumps to you, it was right- WK: 1:42:01 Yeah, mercy, mercy me, you know. SM: 1:42:02 Right. WK: 1:42:02 Um, uh, so and I think that they, you know, do not forget, we did not start dealing with Vietnam in movies for seven or eight years after was over. SM: 1:42:19 Dear Honor was one of the first ones. WK: 1:42:20 Dear Honor, was one of the first ones, Coming Home was one of the first ones. The best one, though, was platoon, because it just, it was so raw, it was so in your face. It was so- SM: 1:42:23 Vets do not like that movie, though. WK: 1:42:23 Why? Smoking dope all the time. SM: 1:42:24 They feel it is, um, uh I am not exactly sure why they do not like it. They think it portrayed the Vietnam veteran and like- Yes, smoking dope, the killing, uh, is random killings, and that really upset them. And that was not all the look of Vietnam veteran was about, but images we did a program at our university with, uh, three or four Vietnam veterans, brought them back, and we had a Vietnamese student in our audience. We hired together Vietnamese students at Westchester. We brought Dan Fraley, um, who was one of the town people walked from the wall in Philly, and I interviewed him already, um, and Dennis fest, who had lost his legs in the war, and they were there, and they showed the movie, then they responded to the movie, and then it was all over. She was there in the audience, and she, you know, she came up and hugged both of them. Now, that was a memory I will never forget, because her parents were over there at the time when she was a baby. She does not remember, but, uh, she was a baby, and it was just a fact that she forgave that the American soldier. So, the memories- WK: 1:43:16 It is what I told you before, that is one of the real ironies of this whole thing. The Americans are not mad at Vietnamese. The Vietnamese are not mad at the Americans, so what gives? I got to go. SM: 1:43:31 Yeah, Wally. Thank you very much, uh. WK: 1:43:32 Okay, my pleasure. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Wally Kennedy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kennedy, Wally ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Radio journalists; Kennedy, Wally--Interviews Description An account of the resource Wally Kennedy, a native of Chicago, is a journalist, anchor, and an educator. He is currently a news anchor for the Philadelphia KYW Newsradio and has interviewed many people ranging from Joe Biden to Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter. Prior to joining KYW Newsradio, he spent twenty years as a television talk host. Kennedy is a graduate of Loyola Academy, and Columbia College, in Chicago. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1997-02-15 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.75a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.75b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 103:36