96 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3fcd202b5e2cb1545cdfecadb3fe1218.jpg 2e1e8894a71db77117cc9f04179287a2 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/38f5fa805dc15f016ca544313ca0d3ae.mp3 5fa8ad9629736c700c6bd8be20c6be9e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Wally Nunn Date of Interview ND Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 80:31 Biographical Text Wally Nunn, a former Army helicopter gunner, later became chairman of the Delaware County, PA. He is also the former head of Mid-Atlantic Public Finance Region of Citigroup Global Markets Inc. and former chairman of the Board of the Freedoms Foundation at Valley Forge. Nunn was the founder and leader of the non-profit "The Friends of the Grove." Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Vietnam Veterans; Jane Fonda; Malcolm X; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Berrigan Brothers; Muhammad Ali; Richard Nixon; Lyndon B. Johnson; Hubert Humphrey; George McGovern."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Vietnam Veterans; Jane Fonda; Malcolm X; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Berrigan Brothers; Muhammad Ali; Richard Nixon; Lyndon B. Johnson; Hubert Humphrey; George McGovern. Subject LCSH Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Citigroup (Firm); Nunn, Wally--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Wally Nunn Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Nunn, Wally ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Citigroup (Firm); Nunn, Wally--Interviews Description An account of the resource Wally Nunn, a former Army helicopter gunner, later became chairman of the Delaware County, PA. He is also the former head of Mid-Atlantic Public Finance Region of Citigroup Global Markets Inc. and former chairman of the Board of the Freedoms Foundation at Valley Forge. Nunn was the founder and leader of the non-profit "The Friends of the Grove." Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.139a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.139b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 80:31 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f04a3c037b9a1fcc64928250a5bf6d5c.mp3 f57006a2d1a4f7c72e676727626b46cb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dryja, Walter Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Caganek, Anna Date of Interview 1977-11-22 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 32:49 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55895">Interview with Walter Dryja</a> Subject LCSH Dryja, Walter -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Dairy farmers -- Interviews; Immigrants -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Coal mines and mining; Milk Delivery; Polish Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Walter Dryja Interviewed by: Anna Caganek Date of interview: 22 November 1977 Anna: I am Anna Caganek: the interviewer, talking to Walter Dryja of 22 Arthur Street, Binghamton, New York, on November 22, 1977. Walter, tell me about your life. Walter: This is the biography of Walter Dryja, who was brought into this world the ninth day of December many moons ago by my dear mother, Sophie, and father, John Dryja, to this address: 525 Washington Ave, Glendale, Carnegie, PA. My father and mother came from the part of Poland that was occupied by Austria-Hungary, ruled at the time by Franz Josef. My mother had three girls and four boys, that was the size of my family. I was the youngest. My father came alone to Baltimore, Maryland, in the first part of the 19th century [sic], looking for work. He lived in Baltimore, Maryland, only a few weeks, he got word from his friends that Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, had better working conditions and more pay. He came to Pittsburgh, PA, got a job at the Bell Coal Company mining soft coal, earned money and saved until he had enough to send to his wife. So, she took the three children with her, and one died in Poland, and one daughter she left in Poland with a good friend because there was not enough money for a ticket on the ship. My father got settled in PA, later sent money to Poland to bring the daughter that was left with the friends in Poland. My father worked very hard mining coal, saved his earnings, which at that time was paid in gold, silver, nickel and copper—no paper money. Pay was two times a month, about $22, all depended how many tons of coal a person could load by hand shovel into the cars. My father saved enough money to purchase a building lot, hired a man to build a two-family home. While all this was going on, my father increased the size of his family by having three boys, one every two years, and I was the ‘last of the Mohicans.’ By now, my oldest sister was about age sixteen, she had a friend of a family as a boyfriend. They got married and moved to Chicago, Illinois, and they raised a family of seven girls and one boy. They made their home in Chicago. The next to the oldest sister was Mary, got a job in a pottery abelline factory in Carnegie, PA, and then she decided to go to Chicago to live with Veronica, the oldest sister. Nora, the youngest of the girls, got married, age twenty, Syracuse, NY, and married Peter Ryznar—he got a job in a shoe repair shop—and I, Walter, was born December 9th. I attended a Catholic Parochial school in Glendale, PA, with two of my brothers, Stanley and Joseph. John was the oldest of the four boys. He was born in Poland, he worked in the coal mines, later got in Superior Steel Company, Carnegie, PA. Stanley graduated from the eighth grade grammar school, got a job as a clerk in Hardy’s Drug Store in Carnegie, PA. The first World War started, brother John quit his job at the steel company and volunteered into the Army, was trained as engineer and shipped to France. Stanley got typhoid fever and died at the age of sixteen in a Pittsburgh Hospital. About six months later, Father died and is buried in Glendale, PA, cemetery, next to Stanley, his son. I was about eleven years of age at that time, I watched or attended the neighbor's three cows during vacation for a dollar a week. At that time people were allowed to have cows in the villages and see milk to neighbors. There was no electric street lights, only gaslights. Each day, in the evening, a constable would come on foot with a small ladder and light the gaslights and in the morning come to put out the lights. All the homes and buildings had gaslights, no electricity, only streetcars were electric, and some of the automobiles were electric and gasoline and a few steam cars. People that were in a higher bracket owned horses and buggies, sleighs for local transportations. After died, Mother sold the home in Glendale, came with Joseph, my brother, to Binghamton to live with my sister. They had moved from Syracuse a few years ago, which was in Johnson City, NY, before that it was Lestershire. Endicott Johnson Shoe Company was good to these workers, provided low-cost housing, gave bonuses, provided medical services, legal services, recreation and other benefits to their workers. When my mother and a brother, Joe, came, Joe was about sixteen years, got a job in Burbank Foundry, Binghamton, NY. I attended Catholic Parochial School. I was chosen to play in school in vaudeville plays. About six months, my mother died. I was twelve years old, and my sister and her husband, Peter Ryznar, worked in E.J. shoe factory company. They had a son and two daughters. I was older than they were but we grew up. I helped as much, as much as I could with the housework and made myself useful. The first World War ended and my brother, John, that enlisted in the Army at Glendale, PA, at the start of the War, came to Binghamton and lived with us. Got work in E.J. shoe factory, he was restless, talked my sister and her husband, Peter, to purchase a dairy farm where the Broome County Airport is situated at the present time. He quit his E.J. shoe shop but Peter did not quit. I graduated from the eighth grade grammar school and we moved to the farm. My brother Joe stayed in the city, got work at E.J., and about two years of dairy farming, my brother John gave up farming, leaving me, age eighteen, on the farm, stranded on the farm. With my sister and her husband and three children children, no one wanted to work on the farm at that time, that's it. On the north side of Prospect Street near border of Johnson City and Binghamton is the Town of Dickinson line. The contour of the land is the base of Mount Prospect, on top is the BOCES. This is where the St. Stanislaus Kostka Church and school was started by Rev. Jolak. This land was purchased by two spinsters, Ann and Mary McNamara. They lived in a nice white farm homestead on Prospect Street, and it was lined with huge maple trees on both sides of the street in front of their home, the street looked like a tunnel with dirt road, mud in the spring and in the autumn of the year. A family by the name of Okonovsy had a bakery nearby on Glenwood Ave, Binghamton, NY. They migrated from Fulton, NY. They were Polish descent, had a large family. They baked the finest and most tastiest rye bread. They were friends of my brother-in-law, Peter, Mary, and my sister Nora. On Downs Ave., where the electric trolley had a franchise, came to a dead end at the boundary of Johnson City, Port Dickinson and Binghamton. A family of Polish descent by the name of Huzar, they also came from Fulton, NY, and friends of Peter purchased a creamery, which at that time the milk had to be delivered no later than six o'clock in the morning to the consumer because there were no refrigerators, only iceboxes, and the consumer wanted fresh milk on the breakfast tables, it so they could use it before going to work. This was the year of 1922—there was no truck deliveries, only horse and wagon, Spaulding Bakeries, Cutler Ice Co., and all creameries had stables to house the horses. As I come back to where I started to tell you about, the Huzar family purchased a creamery from Mr. Lott on Downs Ave., Binghamton. I, Walter Dryja, was a very young boy after my mother died. I started to help Tom Huzar, who was the son of Mr. Huzar—he was about age sixteen—to load 12 quarts bottles to a case of milk in the wagon. About two a.m. in the morning, deliver the milk to the consumer, this was year of 1922. There was no under-the-railroad passes, we had to go over the railroad tracks. There were safety or stop gates to stop traffic across the tracks. When a passenger or freight train was coming, it happened one early morning, Tom and I were driving a gray mare horse and wagon with a load of milk across Jarvis Street, Binghamton, NY. We got halfway between the two railroad, the Erie and Lackawanna, the watchman at the tower lowered the stop gates, so we’re caught between the train and the train came roaring through. Tom jumped out of the wagon, grabbed the horse by the bridle, and I stayed in the wagon holding the reins. The horse reared up on his hind legs, picking Tom off the ground as the train went by. The tower watchman raised, raised the top gates. Tom got in the wagon and no one was hurt. We went about the business of delivering the milk. Do not ask me if I was scared, I was too naive to know any better. This and a few other less exciting incidents happened in my life. After my dear mother went to meet her master—this also happened before I graduated from St. Stanislaus Kostka School and before I went to the farm to help my sister—on the farm Peter had about fourteen milk cows, a few heifers, calves and a sire, three horses which we used on the farm to work, also for transportation to deliver milk every morning to a creamery, about four miles each way, winter and summer, rain or shine. I recall when the snow was three or four feet deep on the ground, snowdrifts about six feet deep, even higher, on the way to the creamery with twenty cans of raw milk in forty quart cans on a big bobsleigh pulled by the team of horses that I was driving, the horse lost his footing on the hard snow-packed road and fell in the soft snow, deep, he could not reach the ground with his feet, I had to shovel him out out of the snowdrift and help him to get back on the hard snow-beaten path and proceed with the delivery of the load of milk, which I collected from some of the neighboring dairy farms. I got paid twenty cents for a hundred pounds of milk, which was about two pounds of milk to one quart of milk. This was supposed to be delivered to the creamery in Maine, NY, three miles away before nine o'clock every morning. Every day in the year, rain or shine. This happened sometime in the winter morning, I cannot recall in my memory the day or year as I was returning from the creamery. After I delivered the milk the sky was bright, the sun was shining, it gradually began to get dark, the roosters began to crow, this was about ten o'clock in the morning, this was the total eclipse of the sun. As we struggled on this farm to make a living, my brother in law, Peter Ryznar, owner of this 130-acre farm where Broome County Airport's north runway is laid and operated today, the year 1977. At the year 1922 it was dirt road, mud in the spring and fall of the year, and passable roads in the winter, big snowdrifts, the wind never stopped blowing. At Mt. Ettrick the air is clear and very cold in the winter, fifteen degrees colder at the top of Ettrick than it is in the city of Binghamton. On this farm there was no luxuries such as electric, indoor toilets or bathrooms, no heating system in the homes, except a huge cast-iron stove in the central part of the house to burn wood, which was dragged and hauled from the woods by horses during the autumn or winter seasons and cut into twelve- or fourteen-inch pieces so they would fit in the stove. The only running water was, as I can remember, is when we needed water in the house to take a bath or for cooking, and I would run to the well and pump it out of the well into a pail or bucket and run with it to the house, is what you can call—running water. Anna: Did you ever melt the snow? Walter: No, we never melted snow, only we used it for batteries in the truck and used it for washing—it was soft water we stored—it in an olden wooden barrel—fifty-gallon barrels, it saved soap—it was soft water. We had a small pond on the farm, stocked it with bullheads—fish in it. They grew fast because it was a lot of food such as frogs in the winter, the neighbors and I would cut the ice off this pond with large hand ice saws. We hauled these blocks of ice, from 175 to 125 pounds each, to our houses—ice houses packed in the sawdust. The sawdust around these outside walls, twelve to eighteen inches thick so the ice would not melt away in the summer. We used the ice to cool the milk we got from the cows at the evening milking, and it had to be cooled overnight so it would not sour before it was delivered to the creamery in the next morning. We also had a treat once in a while on Sunday, we made some homemade ice cream with a make-it-yourself kit—ice cream was made by cranking a handle like hell, until your throat went dry, and you would get homemade ice cream. What kind of a flavor would like, try and get it. We only have vanilla today while it lasts. Well my brother-in-law saved a few dollars working in EJ shoe factory in the summer, when the roads were passable he paid $20 a week to the neighbor had a 1924 Chevrolet four-cylinder car to drive Peter and the other neighbors to work in EJ shoe factory. In the winter when the roads got impassable, Peter got room and board in the city and only came to the farm Saturday and Sunday. I, Walter, had to hitch up the old dobbin and go for Peter and take him back to the city on Sunday after milking the cows. It was about eight miles one way by horse and sleigh. It took one-and-a-half hours one way. There was several instances I can remember after taking Peter to the city and return to the farm, half frozen, my hands and fingers were so numb that I could hardly unbuckle the harness from the horses. Peter purchased a Ford, a truck tractor, one of the horses got sick, we were told by the veterinarian to destroy or shoot the horse. Peter purchased a new one, Ford Model T truck, $195 at that time, which could not pull its own weight up a dirt road on a hill where we lived on the farm, this was in the autumn of the year. Barns were destroyed by fire, Peter sold all the cows and horses, and I stayed with Peter and helped with disposal of the cattle. Then I found a job on a farm on Route 12, near Greene, NY—the Golden Gurnsey farm, owned by lawyer John Marcey, who practiced law from the sixth floor of the Security Building in Binghamton, NY, and he resided in the winter on Davis Street in Binghamton, and summer at the farm he owned and had Mr. Tyler managing it for him. Anna: Did you ever do anything to enjoy yourself? Walter: Yes. Work from sunrise to sunset. Anna: Did you ever go, go to Ross Park? Walter: Never had time. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Walter Dryja Subject The topic of the resource Dryja, Walter -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Dairy farmers -- Interviews; Immigrants -- Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Coal mines and mining; Milk Delivery; Polish Description An account of the resource Walter Dryja talks about his family's life, beginning with his father's emigration from Poland to Maryland, and then to Pennsylvania to work in the coal mines. He talks about his family life, working on different dairy farms, his long hours and grueling nature of his work, as well as the economic fluctuations in the production and sale of dairy products. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 17 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Dryja, Walter ; Caganek, Anna Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1977-11-22 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 32:49 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7483b77fe6836c46fd2e204e7364a7a2.jpg 78742cada5b6d7d40c4a836cba4152ae https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/df8ff4e6d1612c19e2ebb8924a0234ae.mp3 fb908500154eb5fd42b293df6c8b245b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-08-21 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Walter Naegle Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Walter Naegle is the partner of the late civil rights leader, Bayard Rustin and is executive director of the Bayard Rustin Fund. Naegle has a Bachelor's degree in Studio Art from Fordham University. Decades before gay marriage was an option, Rustin adopted Naegle to formalize their relationship."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7043,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Walter Naegle is the partner of the late civil rights leader, Bayard Rustin and is executive director of the Bayard Rustin Fund. Naegle has a Bachelor's degree in Studio Art from Fordham University. Decades before gay marriage was an option, Rustin adopted Naegle to formalize their relationship. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 124:59 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Non-violence; Civil rights movement; Folk music; Joan Baez; Vietnam War; Baby boom generation; Conscientious objector; Christianity; VISTA; Trust."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588}}">Non-violence; Civil rights movement; Folk music; Joan Baez; Vietnam War; Baby boom generation; Conscientious objector; Christianity; VISTA; Trust. Subject LCSH Rustin, Bayard, 1912-1987;Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Naegle, Walter--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Walter Naegle Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Naegle, Walter ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Rustin, Bayard, 1912-1987;Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Naegle, Walter--Interviews Description An account of the resource Walter Naegle is the partner of the late civil rights leader, Bayard Rustin and is executive director of the Bayard Rustin Fund. Naegle has a Bachelor's degree in Studio Art from Fordham University. Decades before gay marriage was an option, Rustin adopted Naegle to formalize their relationship. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.92 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 124:59 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3bf2f3e2e5171c16c5339bda288b1be5.mp3 1913782579f31bd4fdd62e836f8ee0e5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-05-03 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Wayne Coffey Year of Graduation 1976 Biographical Text An award-winning sports journalist and writer for the Daily News (one of NY's best papers back in the day). Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Wayne Coffey Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Coffey, Wayne ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource An award-winning sports journalist and writer for the Daily News (one of NY's best papers back in the day). Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-05-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Wayne Coffey.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-05-03 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 58:40 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c986bbc9f8507f01010a9be28783a4a6.jpg 0dcb95c11dd293433541cb77e5d38fe1 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0aeef811ca40176640522667e5a2e6ae.mp3 368b9cd38b6e74e6ff50bbd9cd7b54dd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-01-07 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Wayne J. (Wayne Jacob) Thorburn, 1944- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Wayne Thorburn is a politician, educator and author. He served as the executive director of the Republican Party of Texas from 1977-1983. He is the author of A Generation Awakes: Young Americans for Freedom and the Creation of the Conservative Movement. Dr. Thorburn is a graduate of Tufts University and Penn State and holds a Ph.D. in political science from the University of Maryland. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7043,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,5855577],"15":"Arial"}">Dr. Wayne Thorburn is a politician, educator, and author. He served as the executive director of the Republican Party of Texas from 1977-1983. He is the author of A Generation Awakes: Young Americans for Freedom and the Creation of the Conservative Movement. Dr. Thorburn is a graduate of Tufts University and Penn State and holds a Ph.D. in political science from the University of Maryland. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Ethnic church; Religion; Economy; WWII; Great powers; Soviet Union; Free speech movement; Corporate control; Environmental movement; Vietnam War; Student protest; Welfare state; Baby boom generation; Sexual revolution; Consumption society; Gay and Lesbian Movement; Women's Rights Movement; Discrimination; Black Panthers; Black Power."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Ethnic church; Religion; Economy; WWII; Great powers; Soviet Union; Free speech movement; Corporate control; Environmental movement; Vietnam War; Student protest; Welfare state; Baby boom generation; Sexual revolution; Consumption society; Gay and Lesbian Movement; Women's Rights Movement; Discrimination; Black Panthers; Black Power. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 220:20 Subject LCSH Politicians—United States; Educators; Authors; Republican Party (U.S. : 1854- )--Texas; Thorburn, Wayne J. (Wayne Jacob), 1944--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Wayne Thorborn Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 7 January 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:02): Testing one, two. VT (00:00:07): And others of the left of that period of time, which I rightly so have made it into college libraries and public libraries. But as you indicated, there is only two that were kind of, one of which was a professor from Pennsylvania, John Andrew, who now passed away, who was at Franklin and Marshall wrote the Other Side of the (19)60s, which really pretty much ends with the Goldwater election. He does not really go into much beyond that. The other book, Cadres For Conservatism, is a little more extensive in the period it covers, but it basically says, well, the organization died in (19)85. SM (00:00:53): Oh, wow. WT (00:00:55): Rightly so. It was not strong from that point on, and in fact, I kind of say by the (19)90s, the mid (19)90s, it went into at least hibernation. It did not maybe die, but it went into hibernation. SM (00:01:11): Right. WT (00:01:11): But anyway, those who were active in the somewhat revival of the organization in the late (19)80s and in the very early (19)90s, they were just all upset and wrote scathing reviews on Amazon and everything else. How could he say this, the organization died in (19)85? And it is true. I mean, he was wrong, and so that have marred his history of the organization, which I thought was otherwise pretty good. And so, the bottom line was I felt there had to be something else that maybe libraries would purchase that would be on the shelf 10, 15 years from now when somebody's doing a study or research on what happened in the (19)60s and the (19)70s, if they would not only have the Tom Hayden and Richard Flax and the Kirkpatrick sales version, but they'd have a counter saying, "Well, wait a minute. There was another group of young people doing other things at that point in time." It stands to reason. SM (00:02:12): Yeah. I read the book. What I normally do is when I read a book, I read it through once and then I start reading it through where I start underlining it and all the other things. So, I really need to get a second book because that is what happens when I get involved in books and I am in the process now of I have read it, but I am reading so many books from my book project that- WT (00:02:36): Sure. SM (00:02:37): This is a good one, and it is well written, so I am ready to go if you are? WT (00:02:44): I am. SM (00:02:44): Okay. One of the things I have done is, it is actually the first 50 people I interviewed, which when I started this project back in the late (19)90s, I did not ask too much about their personal background, but the last 150 I have, and so I think it is important. How did you become who you are, that strong, conservative leader who grew up in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s? WT (00:03:09): Well, that is a good question. I think I came from a lower middle class working class family that was very traditional and conservative, not in the political ideological sense, but in the norms, values set. My father was an electrician. Much of his life, worked for other people, but then, well, the last 30 years or so worked for himself. So, I would not even call him a small businessman because he was himself, he never had any helpers or anything. My mother, after working very briefly, well before I was born, was a stay-at-home mother. And I grew up, I have one brother who is really a totally different segment. He is 15 years older than I am, and so it is almost like being two only children because by the time I was in the elementary school, he was off college and all that stuff. So, I grew up in a place called Somerville, Massachusetts, which is very much of a working class, inner suburb of Boston right between Cambridge and Medford, if you are familiar with it at all. SM (00:04:36): Oh, yeah. Yeah. WT (00:04:39): And so they were Baptist. Because I sometimes, and I am probably going to go on too long, so cut me off if I go on too long. SM (00:04:50): Okay, that is fine. WT (00:04:52): I grew up in what I now refer to as an ethnic church because in that area they were Irish, Italians and transplanted Canadians. Basically, the old wasps from colonial days were living in much more wealthy communities, so where were the wasps were basically transplanted Canadians and the church I grew up in, I would say 90 percent of the people there had relatives still living in Canada. And they, because of being Protestants, they were Republicans. And I think that is the motivation in the days that you are talking about, particularly the (19)50s and post-World War II. If you were Catholic, odds were very-very strong that you were going to be a Democrat, and if you were Protestant, odds were very-very strong that you were going to be a Republican. And ideology meant very little because you had very liberal Republicans and conservative Republicans, liberal Democrats, and conservative Democrats. There was ethnicity and class and other factors were what chose your party. So, I started in that environment and I think the first thing that really hit me was picking up while in High School, Barry Goldwater's, Conscience of a Conservative. SM (00:06:18): Yes. WT (00:06:19): And then after that, starting to get introduced to Buckley and Up from Liberalism. I think his first book, God and Man at Yale, was really before my time and really did not make an impact on me. It was the second, well, not his second, but his late 1959 book, Up From Liberalism. And so, I started reading those in high school, and I guess it was the values from my family that started me in that direction. SM (00:06:54): Did you read his book too, which was another classic on McCarthyism? WT (00:06:59): Not really. I mean, I obviously have since, but it did not make an impact on me. SM (00:07:03): Yeah, that is a classic. WT (00:07:05): McCarthy was an unknown person to me in those early days. I am sure some of the people you interviewed, oh, their parents were real backers of Joe McCarthy and all? No, it was not that. We seldom really at any depth discussed politics at home. SM (00:07:22): What was it like going to high school in the (19)50s or the late (19)50s, early (19)60s? WT (00:07:28): It was the late (19)50s and I graduated from high school in (19)61, so I think I am pretty well overworked, in kind of meaningless work, but traditional. At the high school, again, because of where I grew up, was very much a working class. A very, very small number, small percentage, of the graduates would go on to college. Some might go to a technical school or a secretarial school as they used to have them in those days, but most of them were high school graduates who then went on to work in clerical positions or truck drivers or working for the city or something like that. So, I worked part-time, and as most kids did in those times, I was able to purchase for $125 an old (19)54 Ford in until my senior year I had this broken-down car that I would drive to school. And there was not any one teacher who had an overriding influence on me. I was involved in the debate club, but we really never really got into very many debates and church activities and things like that. SM (00:09:02): When you drove that car, did you look like James Dean? WT (00:09:06): No, I was not quite the rebel. SM (00:09:09): Yeah. I often am interested in terms of one's college years. Could you talk about how you picked the college you went to? What was it like to be a college student during those years, and was there any activism at the college in those late (19)50s, early (19)60s? WT (00:09:30): Okay. Yeah. Basically I ended up applying to two colleges and one was Wake Forest. I really cannot tell you why. I never went to North Carolina. Never made a visit. The campus. It was in those days a Baptist college, and that might have had some reason for applying there. And then Tufts University, which was around the corner, a 15-minute walk from home. The reason I guess I applied there is because it had a very good reputation academically, and my brother had graduated from there, again many years earlier. But I guess in that there was a minor legacy you might think. So, I got into both of them and for various and sundry reasons, because there were no scholarships that were being made available, it just seemed, and my parents were not wealthy, but they were going to have to pay the tuition, it made sense to go to Tufts, which was really the academically better school, and I could walk to campus, live at home. Which is what I did. So. that is how I ended up going there. I guess one other part of your question, how did I come in contact with YAF? SM (00:11:02): Yes. WT (00:11:04): That is a transitional one because what happened was after I got accepted at Tufts, I was able to get a summer job that they had, I guess for students and incoming students, working with the grounds and building department. And in those days, the kids would leave their dorm room a mess and anything they did not want, they just trashed and left there. Knowing from my daughter's experience, nowadays, they come around and monitor and you have to have everything out there and cleaned up. But in those days, they had just left the places a mess. And so, one of the first assignments at Grounds and Building was to go into the dorms and take all the trash, get all the trash out of the rooms. And in so doing, I came across this rather amateur looking publication called The New Guard, and nosy that I was, reading through this and saw that it was a conservative youth publication by an unknown group to me called Young Americans For Freedom. And so that is how I came in contact with YAF, just by chance coming across a publication that a kid had left in a dorm room. And wrote off and sought information and tried to find out if there was a chapter at Tufts, things like that. SM (00:12:29): Wow. Yeah. One of the things I want, again, I have read this, but the people that will be reading these interviews, they will not have read your book and all the people I have interviewed, they have not read the books, but it is the personalities and the basic information, it is a different venue to reach people. When you talk about the Young Americans for Freedom, it is mostly college students. There is no high school students involved here. Correct? WT (00:12:53): At that point in time, there were very-very few, as time went on into the (19)60s, even as (19)62, (19)63, there were high school students involved, very much so. And there is a couple examples of people like Al Della Bovie, who is the chairman or president or whatever of the Federal Home Loan Bank of New York. He got active and was the head of a chapter in New York City of basically high school students. So, yes. And then from that point on, there was maybe not at the original founding, but by the early (19)60s as the involvement, particularly in the Goldwater campaign began, there started to be a number of high school chapters, some of which were allowed on campus, but many times we are not campus high school chapters, but might be City High School chapter. SM (00:14:04): The number four question here, which is basically divided the 65 years that boomers have been alive in six different periods, and basically when I have asked this question to all of my interviewees, it is some have said, it is almost impossible to talk about a period, there is too much, but what first comes to your mind when you see these six periods? Like say that first one, (19)46 to 1960, when you think about America and what, just the period? WT (00:14:40): Yeah. I guess to me, first of all, it is childhood. But in terms of the broader picture, I guess it would be staid, culturally established, not much radical change. SM (00:15:04): And then that period (19)61 when John Kennedy comes into office to 1970 when Kent State happens. WT (00:15:11): Right, right. Well, I would argue there is two different periods that are drastically different there. The period up until, I guess if you really want to look at one event, maybe the March (19)65 Johnson expansion of Vietnam being the end of the first period. Which I think still, there were rumblings of change in society with the civil rights movement with some of this campus activity mainly on the West coast, but it started out as a very conservative kind of period. I relate to, I was a freshman in (19)61, and so I still remember the beanie that I had to wear as a freshman on campus. I still remember that there was a curfew for female students. I still remember that there were obviously separate dormitories, but there was, even at Tufts, there was a separate women's college called Jackson College, just like there was Harvard and Radcliffe and all the administratively distinctive women's institutions within the bigger institution. I remember that even by 1965 when I was a senior, what I, and many of us did, is we bought these blue blazers with a crest on it, with the year 1965 and the seal of the college and would wear them around. SM (00:16:45): Wow. WT (00:16:46): And we would get harassed as a freshman, if we did not have our beanie on. So that first period of time, I think, was still socially very conservative, even though the rumblings were there of the start of some of the other things. And then the second half was quite different. That is when social morays are changing and when the music is making much more impact on society, and of course you get Woodstock and all that other stuff. So, I think you cannot really just solely talk about the decade of the (19)60s. It is really two different groups that hit there. SM (00:17:31): Right. How about that period, (19)71 to (19)80, which is the some might say is through at least (19)73, (19)74 is a continuation of the latter half of the (19)60s, and then you get into the disco era and the music changed. What were your thoughts before Ronald Reagan became president, just your thoughts on that period? WT (00:17:51): Right-right. Well, there was a period, again, as you said, of a lot of malaise. There was a lot of discomfort in society. There was all the problems with Nixon and Watergate and Agnew. What would In effect was the defeat and withdrawal from Vietnam. There was the energy crisis that came in. There was inflation with the Jerry Floyd and his whip inflation now. And then of course, looking back on that period, you come across the picture of Jimmy Carter sitting with a sweater in front of a fireplace talking about the malaise that we were in. So, it was rather, I think in many ways, a kind of a depressing decade that had a lot of negative things associated with it. SM (00:18:54): How about that period, 1981 to 1990 that many say is the era of Reagan? WT (00:19:00): I think that was for me, and actually for many people, much more optimistic. I think Reagan came in and was able to re-enthuse the American people about the possibilities of the country and its role not only in the world, but its role in time, and what was happening. As the theme in the (19)84 election that "It is morning in America", kind of summarized it. It was a sense of optimism. Now, there was the down period of the Iran Contra and near the end of it, but I think pretty much that whole decade was one of much more economically, we were doing better, and I think inside, psychically we were doing better by dealing. SM (00:19:58): How about that 1991 to 2000 when President Bush and President Clinton- WT (00:20:05): Excuse me. That too, is not a bad decade. I think if one looks back historically on the Clinton administration, but Clinton had a lot of personal problems, as we all know. We do not have to get into those, but I think as a president and as a period of time, yeah, it was a very positive one. When you look back, whether you want to give some of the credit to the Republican control of Congress or the President or both, or whatever. It was the last period that we, after many, many years, of continual deficit, that we were running an annual budget that was not in deficit, and the economy was doing fairly well. So, I think it was a pretty positive time. With also starting at the beginning with really the downfall of the Soviet Union and taking away the threat of an any day impending nuclear disaster. It was before we got to realize that the spread of nuclear weapons to other countries, and maybe even movement in our countries could become a serious continuing threat to us. We had focused for so many years on the Soviet Union, and it was gone. That, I think, it started the decade where it started out very positively. SM (00:21:43): And then of course, the last decade, 2001 to now 2011 with President Bush and President Obama. WT (00:21:51): Right-right. Exactly. Again, early on, reality sets in that the world is not a wonderful and beautiful place with 9-11. I think that really set the tone for much of American's attitudes towards the rest of that decade is that threat from a non-governmental force of a group of extremists who were under the color of religion, were attempting to advance their ideological position and work at virtually no respect for human life and would involve anyone civilian, the non-governmental officials or what have you, in bringing down what they saw as the enemy. SM (00:22:47): You know what is really interesting? WT (00:22:47): I think- SM (00:22:47): Go ahead. WT (00:22:47): Economically, you had stuff down. SM (00:22:54): It is interesting when you look at this whole period, when you think of the 1972 Olympics and the terrible thing that happened with the terrorism that Olympics, the killing of the Israeli team, and then all throughout the (19)80s, the takeover of airplanes and pilots, and then of course leading up to 9-11, seems like that Terrorism has been around here for quite some time. WT (00:23:18): Yes, it has. True. SM (00:23:20): Yeah. Wow. It's been around half the lives of all the boomers, especially the front runner boomers. When you look at the generation, which, whether it be 74 or 79 million, I always see different numbers, but when you look at the generation as a whole, can you give some characteristics that you think are some of the strengths and weaknesses of the generation? Is that possible? WT (00:23:48): Yeah, and again, I am a Casper at best. SM (00:23:54): Yes. WT (00:23:54): I was born in (19)44, so I am just beyond being able to call myself a baby boomer because I think the true span is (19)46 to (19)64 at birth years. But having said all that, I guess a couple of things would be number one, growing up at a time of economic and political growth of the United States of America. I mean, the economy has changed and strengthened so much from after the World War II period in which the first ones were born. And politically coming out of World War II, there were only two great powers, and then eventually with the fall of the Soviet Union, only one for a period of time. And economically, the United States' strength internationally has grown tremendously. So I think it's been one where the generation has had great advancement. Almost every one of them have economically done better than their parents and have been able to look to the future with positive projection. The downside of that, of course, is maybe the over-emphasis on security and the anticipation and expectation that everything will be either given to you or easily obtained, which kind of leads maybe to a sense of entitlement that is beyond what should be. I guess that in a nutshell is probably the way I would describe it. SM (00:25:46): In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end, and what was the watershed moment? WT (00:25:51): Okay. Well, I think we have talked about that a little bit. I think there are two (19)60s. The (19)60s that is, I think you are referring to, I think probably began with Johnson's move in 1965 to enhance US involvement in the Vietnam War, and that probably was the pivotal event that activated many people on the left on college campuses, and by then the music and drugs and other things were starting to impact the community. So, that would be the watershed moment I think. The (19)60s as described that way rather than chronologically probably started to fade out by 1973 in the withdrawal of American troops, and the fact that their hero McGovern got so resoundingly defeated the left's hero, the left hero, Montgomery, got so resoundingly defeated the (19)72 election, and so that movement, if that is the (19)60s, kind of goes from (19)65 to (19)73 in my mind. SM (00:27:16): Yeah, that is excellent. Number seven is a little bit detailed here. I just picked these out myself, because they seem to be important either right, statements, slogans, or events or personalities that really affected college students, and I was curious what the Young Americans for Freedom were doing on college campuses when they happened. And the first one is, and again, it is just if your perception as person who not only was a leader for of the organization is, I believe it is executive director? WT (00:27:51): Right. SM (00:27:52): Yes. For 7 years? WT (00:27:54): No, no. I was only there... I was involved. I joined in (19)61 and basically got out by (19)75, so that is only 14 years, but I was executive director only from (19)71 to (19)73. SM (00:28:08): Okay. Very good. How did the young Americans for Freedom respond to Kennedy's, "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."? WT (00:28:19): Sounds good, but not realistic because individuals ought to be looking out for themselves, and I think it ran counter to the individualistic strain in modern conservatism. That rather than having a loyalty to the country as primary, your individual concern and in taking care of yourself ought to come first. SM (00:28:49): Then we have the Bobby Kennedy quote. It was actually a quote from another writer from the 1900s- WT (00:28:59): Right-right. SM (00:28:59): But, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see-" WT (00:29:03): I think that would be one that they would grumble as to who was being quoted, but they would agree with that. That was really an attitude that they had. SM (00:29:16): That is a positive attitude then? WT (00:29:18): Absolutely. SM (00:29:19): Then Muhammad Ali, who was one of the primary athletic figures of the boomer generation, we all remember during the Vietnam War, "I will not fight in Vietnam and kill you yellow babies when we have black babies dying in our cities every day." WT (00:29:36): Yeah. I think they would say, Oh, he fails to understand the challenge of communism and how communism is going to kill yellow babies, black babies, white babies, regardless, and it is going to try to control all of the world, and that what we are fighting in Vietnam is international communism and an effort to take over a country, and we are not there to be killing little yellow babies. SM (00:30:02): Malcolm X is by any means necessary, one of the biggest slogans of the year. WT (00:30:08): Yeah, no, they would disagree with that and say that there is the rule of law and there are right appropriate ways to do things and not any means necessary. SM (00:30:21): Timothy Leary was the epitome of the counterculture, "Tune in, turn on, drop out." WT (00:30:32): There is where you get a little division by the late (19)60s into a couple of movements. Some in the organization were enthralled with parts of the counterculture and probably would agree with that to some degree, and that is the movement that gets described is the more libertarian element in the organization. But most would say that, no, this is totally wrong, that you have to become involved, stay involved and change society. SM (00:31:05): Peter Max's posters really often defined the hippie culture in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, very popular where I was going to school, and one that really stood out was this slogan, "You do your thing and I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, that would be beautiful." WT (00:31:28): Well, I think that, probably most of the actors would totally agree with, especially that would really reflect the more libertarian element in the organization and the sense of individual freedom. Yeah. Some of the more conservative ones would say, "Well, that is not quite true. You have to take consideration of society in the larger picture." But I'd say that most would agree with that. SM (00:31:56): And of course, the big- WT (00:31:58): Yeah. SM (00:31:59): ...slogan, "Hell no, we will not go. We will not fight-" WT (00:32:01): No, they would be totally opposed to that. SM (00:32:02): We will not go. We will not fight it. WT (00:32:02): No. They would be totally opposed to that. Yeah. Was very sparling in support of the American effort throughout almost all the period of time. Only when we get into the (19)70s, and Nixon has his Vietnamization aspect of the war, did some less emphasis on that. And really then the emphasis shifted to concern about the POWs. So, no, this is something that they would totally reject. SM (00:32:33): Then the Call of Civil Rights was the uniting force was, "We Shall Overcome." That was the song, voices and- WT (00:32:44): Well, can I go off in two directions with that? SM (00:32:45): Yes. WT (00:32:46): One is, I think one of the big problems of the conservative movement in the (19)60s was its inability to support the legitimate goals of the civil rights movement and the breakdown of segregation. And so, that ended up hurting conservatives and more specifically Republicans by becoming too associated with segregationist in the undying south and discrimination, wherever it was in the country, by not identifying with the Civil Rights Movement. So in a retrospect afterthought, I think a number of conservatives now recognize that that was a very serious problem for the movement for us as individuals. But if taken out of that context of civil rights, the We Shall Overcome, is certainly an attitude and an approach that most [inaudible] would agree with and could be reflected basically after the defeat of Goldwater in 1964. Their rededication to the cause and the movement, We Shall Overcome, would be an accurate description as they went on to say, "Well, yeah. We got trapped, but we are not going to go away and take our marbles and go home. We are going to rededicate ourselves that we shall indeed overcome." SM (00:34:22): The Free Speech Movement and I have talked to a lot of people about this, the one from (19)64, (19)65 with Mario Savio and Jack Weinberg and Bettina Aptheker, that group, some historians even on the left have said that the historic history has not done justice to that event because of the fact they isolated it in (19)64, (19)65 from all the other protests that took place in the late (19)60s. But then other books say that was the precursor and the drive for protests on college campuses. What was YAF? That you have written extensively in the book on this, but this is a very important thing because it's about free speech. And the basic central thesis was, and I remember Mario Salvio talking to about it, there is a brand-new book out on Mario Salvio by Robbie Cohen from NYU. And that is that ideas, the university should be about ideas, not about corporate control on universities. And so, they looked upon this. They were not planning to do protests, it just seemed to happen because the administration denied their right to hand out literature off campus right near Sayer Gate. And what happened is that you unified even the conservative students, when the students were told they could not do something, it was an amazing mistake on the part of the administration at that time. But your thoughts on The Free Speech Movement at Berkeley and YAF's response to it. Are you still there? Hello? [inaudible] You still there? What? Shit. [inaudible] just asked you a question about the Young Americans for Freedom's response to The Free Speech Movement in (19)64, (19)65 at Berkeley. WT (00:37:33): Right. Divided and when it started out for the local YAF chapter at Berkeley was supportive of it. The whole movement began over distribution of political literature on campus. And the administration had ruled that you could not distribute any political literature on campus because it was state government property and there was no solicitation allowed on big government property, like an office building or something. And so, they expelled a guy who thought, questioned, he was really on the border apparently, whether he was on campus or off campus at this point nowadays, they expelled him. They had him in the car ready to take him away, and the students all just surrounded the car. And eventually, I think he and a policeman were in there for 24 hours or something like that before they could rescue him. And that is what started the whole thing. And so, in that context, the YAF chapter stood with the, yeah, I think we call it the [inaudible]. Other groups opposed. As it got on, it became not so much free speech for everyone, but free speech for us, but no speech, right? For anyone else. And therefore, when people wanted to debate issues, there was no debate because there was only one right side, left side. So, from that point on, it became not a question of free speech on campus, but really who is going to control the campus? Whether to let the student activists or the administration [inaudible] control. And at that point, yeah, on almost every campus, yeah, I do not want to say they were defenders of the establishment, but in effect they were defenders of order on campus. SM (00:39:50): How about the Pentagon Papers and Daniel Ellsberg? Because he was big. He was actually speaking on college campuses and there was a lot of- WT (00:40:01): Yeah. SM (00:40:01): That was big. WT (00:40:03): Yeah, it was. And I think the only thing I could say is that they would, yeah, it would have been YAF would have been opposed mainly because he was perceived and rightly so, as part of an anti-war leftist movement that was against the war in Vietnam. And less concerned about the issue of disclosing information as contrasted with just him as the spokesman for the left. SM (00:40:35): How about the Chicago 8 Trial? Which is these names here that I have on my list are the eight defendants, and their two main lawyers. So, they were well known left activists, all of them. WT (00:40:48): Yeah. YAF would have been opposed to every bit of that and their actions and their efforts to defend themselves. So yeah, that was an issue that certainly was talked about after the 1968 Convention where all that writing took place. SM (00:41:10): Now I get kind of in particular here in some of these other ones, what was the Young Americans for Freedom's thoughts on the American Indian Movement? A lot of West Coast colleges were really linked to this, California, Oregon. And so, the takeover of Alcatraz in (19)69 was pretty big. And then of course the tragedy Wounded Knee in (19)73. And then where was YAF on the aim? WT (00:41:41): I do not think actively involved. Not actively involved. It was not a front burner issue for the organization. And if they actually took a stand on it, I cannot recall it. SM (00:42:00): Some say the very big major last protest, 1969 in Washington, the Moratorium? WT (00:42:07): Right. SM (00:42:07): Where was YAF on that? WT (00:42:10): Totally opposed. Organized against it. That was the occasion of the start of what was referred to as the Tell it to Lanoy Movement with distribution of literature and speakers on campuses, not on the date of the big rally in DC but surrounding it from the board some after. The message that YAF was saying is, "You're talking to the wrong people. Tell it Lanoy. If you want to stop the slaughter and the murder of children and the bombing and everything else, tell it to Lanoy, which is the force that is trying to overtake the Soviet government. SM (00:42:53): And then two other real strong activist groups. WT (00:43:00): Okay. Yeah. SM (00:43:01): Yeah. Earth Day in (19)70, the Environmental Movement, and of course the Gay and Lesbian Movement from Stonewall in (19)69. They all evolved and took their lead from. WT (00:43:12): Well Earth Day, I think was a concern that, and the movement and the environmentalists were trying to restrict and limit the American business and the capitalist system. At that point in time, I think that was more the concern and the focus on the issue itself. Stonewall, fully oblivious to it, I think as an organization. And if social security is the third rail of American politics, to a large degree at that period of time and throughout the (19)70s, and I am going to say almost all the (19)80s, in the organization, homosexuality was probably the third rail of the Conservative Movement. And this is a period of time when virtually all homosexuals, female or male were, as the expression goes, in the closet. It existed. There were a number of gays who were involved. I do not know of any lesbians per se, but a number of male gays who were involved in the Conservative Movement through that period of time. And it was not an issue that was discussed with any extent. I think it was predominant probably in the organization what was culturally the accepted mode of the time that homosexuality was not something that was accepted as, I do not want to use the word normal, but as the norm and one's sexual orientation was not discussed in public. So, what happens later on in the organization, and by that, I mean by late, early (19)90s, is the strain comes in that is very anti-homosexual and start talking about sodomites and all of this stuff, which certainly not anywhere [inaudible]. SM (00:45:46): I know that in some of my interviews, because I have interviewed some major gay leaders and activists, and their dislike of Ronald Reagan is so intense because of the AIDS crisis. And when you mentioned the word, and these are the activists, these are the gay and lesbian activists of then and now, he is despised because he would not even talk about the issue, would not even recognize it as an issue. So, when you're talking about AIDS around (19)81 to (19)85, that is a serious issue for them. WT (00:46:20): Yes. You are right. And I do not think, and it probably was overlooked in the [inaudible] and regarded as, "Well, if you shut down the bath houses, maybe there would not be AIDs," kind of, which was an emotional and irrational reaction to it. SM (00:46:43): How about the Women's Movement and the formation of the National Organization For Women? WT (00:46:49): Right. SM (00:46:49): It became very powerful. And there has been many offshoots of that group as well, but that particular- WT (00:46:55): Well, this is again, I think sort of like we talked about the impetus of the free speech movement at Berkeley. This is similar. I think at the beginning of the Woman's Movement, there was a good deal of support, but not just solely among females in the organization, but in general for what the objectives were of equal treatment and opportunities and non-discrimination against females. And I go in the book to a discussion of that in the early (19)70s, there was a number of articles that were written pro and con, and letters pro and con on the Woman's Movement. And I think the one thing in YAF was the use of the Women's Movement by the political left as an organizing tool. They were opposed to, in distinction, to the objective of the Women's Movement, which was equal treatment. There were even some, the Equal Rights Amendment came up about the early (19)70s period and associated with this. And while most in the YAF were against that for amending the Constitution, there were a few supporters, particularly some female leaders in the organization saying that, "Well, this is the only way you can guarantee that there is equal treatment of females." So, there's a little bit of diversity on that issue. SM (00:48:28): And my talks with some of the women feminists, many look at Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan as mainstream. And of course, Bella Abzug is more out there in the extremes. This is a very sensitive area, the Black Panthers and the Brown Berets. The whole issue of black power with, as someone said to me, when you start saying Black Panthers, you better define who you're talking about. Because there were so many different personalities from Huey Newton to the two Cleavers, Kathleen and Eldridge, Bobby Seal, H. Rap Brown, Stokely Carmichael toward the end when he left SNCC and certainly the death of Fred Hampton and Dave Hilliard and Elaine Brown, the list goes on and on. Angela Davis was not a Black Panther. So, your thoughts on what did YAF think of the Black Panthers and the Brown Berets from the Chicano Movement? WT (00:49:28): Yeah, okay. Certainly the Black Berets, the Black Panthers or sorry. There is the two. Very much opposed to them, wrote a lot against them, excuse me, felt they were part of the Left Wing Movement on campuses and in communities, were using violence, like the Malcolm X, by any means necessary. And so, were totally opposed to their methodology. In terms of their objectives, some of which they might have supported, which was empowerment for Black community and entrepreneurial opportunities. But it was certainly their methodology that was totally opposed. Brown Berets, the question might be directed best to somebody who was in California or Arizona or the West Coast. They were a non-entity for us who were then living on the coast. And so, I do not think there was much. Later on, there is reaction against Cesar Chavez, the great boycott and the United Farm Workers Union, but that is different from the Brown Berets. SM (00:50:51): Did they support that? WT (00:50:51): No, not at all. SM (00:50:54): See? The Brown Berets are awful. They are also very strong in Newark and New York City because that is where Puerto Rican and they're a very strong group and they really admire the Black Panthers. WT (00:51:10): Yeah and that certainly... No, YAF did not have any real involvements or attention directed towards them. SM (00:51:19): That whole, "I have a dream," speech in '63 because it really brought forth most of the civil rights leaders of that time and Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and A. Philip Randolph and the list goes on and on. Where was YAF when that major march was happening in '63? And then even as years later, Dr. King went against the Vietnam War and he was criticized heavily even within the African American community, but what were the thoughts on Dr. King, SNCC, SCLC, CORE? WT (00:51:55): I think that, "I have a Dream," speech was one that even YAF certainly since then, most conservatives have said that is a great speech and that our children should grow up in a society where they are based upon the [inaudible] their character and not the color of their skin. All of that has been recited by conservatives nowadays. But I think even back then, most conservatives would have been and the YAF would have been, "Yes, we agree with that." The march on Washington more in terms of geez, this is the right way to go about it in a society based on the rule of law. At that point, it did not [inaudible] their turn. And certainly, when he gave the Vietnam War speech, that was something that YAFers would have turned against him. SM (00:52:54): How about the whole concept of non-violent protests? Because the Civil Rights Movement in the early (19)60s through right probably up to the time Dr. King died, and even in maybe with the other leaders too, like Ralph Abernathy has said, "Go ahead, disrupt. Non-violent protest, Gandhi, go to jail for your beliefs," that kind of thing. Where would the YAF stand on that? WT (00:53:19): Probably supporting the methodology to some extent, although they would not have been supporters of both [inaudible]. Non-violent protests would be something that they would still be in favor of certainly. SM (00:53:36): And I think we have already talked about the student protest because when you think of student protest, you do think of Columbia (19)68, Harvard Square, Kent State in (19)70. The tragedy at Wisconsin, Berkeley, and I know in all the SUNY systems and all the Ohio colleges, Ohio University for one, a major protest for years. WT (00:54:01): And the YAF stood against all that and was organizing as much as possible on campuses using a couple approaches, one of which was what was called Majority Coalition, which was the distribution for blue buttons, stood for peace on [inaudible]. Taking the position that students had a contract with university and education classes should be held, campuses should not be shut down. And a few instances, YAF leaders actually sued administrations for the loss of tuition by virtue of closing the campus early and/or suspending classes for a period of time to go along with the- SM (00:54:48): Which happened a lot after Kent State- WT (00:54:52): Yes. SM (00:54:52): Yeah. The other group is the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, which really became strong in the early (19)70s. And Bobby Muller is a very well-known Vietnam Veteran who, when he went to war, he was gung ho. But when he came back, he said with a lot of Vietnam Veterans Against the War said that he realized that America is not always the good guy. And he has actually been saying that his entire life in all the things he's done. And of course he was paralyzed for the service. Your thoughts on what YAF thought about the Vietnam Veterans Against the War and that mentality that Bobby had? WT (00:55:34): Well, two things. I think, number one, we thought that they were wrong on the position on the war. And that the war was a legitimate war against communist aggression from the north. And that we were right to be aiding our allies in South Vietnam and with all kinds of agenda to it like maybe they ought to be more involved. Maybe they ought to be more Vietnamization. Maybe we ought to relying more on both Vietnam itself to carry the war and non-American soldiers, but still to be supportive of that effort. So, we would have disagreed with the whole approach or the whole position of the organization's approach. SM (00:56:19): Let me turn my tape here- WT (00:56:21): And I think we would also, YAF would have also feel that in the vast majority of cases, nothing being absolute, America is the good guy, and America stands for certain values, but are applicable not only in North America or in a geographical territory [inaudible]. SM (00:56:42): Right. I know Bobby Muller and Ron Kovic were two of the leading anti-war activists. I know we talk about John Kerry, but he was not even in the same league with those two. Hold on, I have to turn my tape over. Hold. Yeah. We're almost under these vote sections here. And was YAF inbound in prison rights, too? What did they think about there were a lot of happenings in the (19)60s about what happened at Attica with the Prison Rights in (19)71? And certainly Angela Davis made the news with the George Jackson situation at San Quentin. Where did YAF stand on all the Prison Rights issues? WT (00:57:28): Nowhere. I do not think it was something on their radar or their attention span. Though I do not think there was any position on that. SM (00:57:44): The whole- WT (00:57:44): On Angela Davis who was described as a communist and if they were in opposition, anything, pretty much anything she did, virtue of right knowledge. SM (00:57:53): Did they ever have any thoughts on George Jackson because he had kind of symbolized the inmates at the time? WT (00:58:04): Not that I am aware of. SM (00:58:07): Yeah. The whole thing, the concept of what the Young Americans of Freedom thought about the hippies, the Yippies, the counterculture, Woodstock, the Summer of Love and of course the tragedy of Altamont, where were they on all those kinds of cultural things? WT (00:58:24): Divided. There was an element, particularly those who consider themselves more libertarian who closely identified with that. And the expression of individual freedom and individual rights that they associated with that. And then there was a more traditionalist element to well, they might have liked music and things like that, felt that it was going too far. So, it was really divided. SM (00:58:59): Yeah. I get right into the music here, because you cannot talk about the (19)60s, early (19)70s without the music. I mean, it was a very political force. It was a cultural force. It was a... Well, just a pleasure force for many and you're talking about the rock musicians of the period, the folk music, the Motown sound, even country in Western was really evolving at this time. Where was YAF? And were they listening to all this music? WT (00:59:28): Yes. Very much so and I think that you get different music reviews actually in the magazine of some of the art at the time and trying to interpret politically some of what the artists were expressing. Certainly the Beatles song Revolution was one that was very much listened to and in depth was endeared to that song. They had a poster with the people on it of [inaudible] because it was an anti, if you recall the word though, it was anti-revolt message. Yep. [inaudible] SM (01:00:17): How about John Lennon's Give Peace A Chance and Imagine? WT (01:00:23): Yeah. Those two would be exceptions to what I just said. SM (01:00:24): Oh, okay. WT (01:00:27): I think they would have been politically not agreed with. Maybe Imagine a little bit, but certainly not Give Peace a Chance. But not even Imagine. I mean, they would listen to it, but the words, they would tone two-note probably. Yeah. Watergate, Ford Pardon, Carter Amnesty. Young Americans for Freedom divorced itself from Richard Dixon in 1971, along with many other conservative politicians, individual, and was not supportive of Nixon well before Watergate ever broke. They were involved in the movement for trying to nominate John Ashbrook as a protest to Nixon in the 1952 primaries. When the 1972 election came along and McGovern was Democrat's choice, they were certainly opposed to McGovern, but they did not like Nixon. So, what the YAF formed was local clubs on campuses called Youth Against McGovern, indicating that we really could not come right out [inaudible] Nixon because we did not agree with him and without giving [inaudible] a bad name. But we were certainly an opposed to governing the way he [inaudible] the country. The Ford pardon? I do not think we really had a position too much on that, but Carter's Amnesty, we were opposed to. Well, opposed to [inaudible] those two had gone [inaudible]. SM (01:02:13): I added these last two. Obviously, they probably did not like Black students with guns at Cornell Campus, but the historic event of the (19)68 Olympics with Tommie Smith and John Carlos raising their fists. They were not Black... We had Tommie on our campus. They were not Black Panthers. They get upset when they mentioned that they do not even like the Black Panthers. It was Black power to them. And just, that was a major event in (19)68 along with all the other things, but- WT (01:02:44): Yeah. I think like everything else, it symbolized left on campus and the Left Movement in America. Probably no focus on them individually too much or what they did. Although it was... SM (01:03:01): That meeting at Sharon was very historic in 1960. For the record, I know it is all in the book and I know you are a lot of things, but who was present? Whose idea was it to meet? Who were some of the personalities that were present and who went on to greater fame and other organizations? And why was there a feeling that student activists needed to organize this group on college campus around the country? WT (01:03:35): Yeah. I will try to summarize this succinctly again. The late 1960s, excuse me, late 1950s there started to be a little bit of an organization of a conservative orient individuals. Started with, I am going to say the National Student Defense Act and the program- And the program of giving scholarships to certain students and also grants to certain universities for science and other things, kind of... I guess kind of a reaction to the US realization that technologically we were not quite as advance as we should be. And part of that was the loyalty of that. Students who received funding, had scholarships to study on, had to sign an agreement that they were to defend the constitution and support the constitution and that they were not involved in any organizations they advocate to be of the government. There was a movement from the left... Oh, a number of campuses and college presidents said, "oh, we cannot do this because this is in denial of academic freedom, cannot make them sign it". And so there was a movement in Congress led by John F. Kennedy to repeal the loyalty of provision. And this was like 1959. And a few students led by two people, David Frankie and Doug Caddy, who were then students at Georgetown. George Washington and Georgetown respectively. Started organizing national students for the Loyalty Oath and made contacts primarily, I believe, through what was then the young republicans on college campus across the country lined up one or more individuals on 120 campuses and wrote congressmen and testified on Capitol Hill. For various unknown reasons the repeal never went through. I think it passed in the Senate, but never got a hearing in the house or something like that. Anyway, that was the impetus. That was followed up quickly by the 1960 Republican Convention in Chicago where a group of young, who were enamored of Barry Goldwater and his then just recently released The Conscience of Conservative, came together to organize youth for Goldwater for Vice President push at the Chicago Convention to nominate him. There was a subsidiary of that that was also supporting Walter Judd, who at that time was keynote speaker and was a congressman from Minnesota as Vice President. Marvin Leman, who was kind of an impresario of the right and organizer of many paper organizations of Frank. Basically underwrote the funding for both youth for Goldwater for Vice President and youth for... Well, Judd kiddingly said "the only time in history, that two candidates’ for Vice President were both funded with same American Express card." SM (01:07:32): Oh my gosh. WT (01:07:32): So, these people got to know each other first through mail, I guess because we did not have any other, and telephone on the loyalty of issue. And then physically came together in Chicago to try to organize this way. At the end of that, there were two meetings at the end of the convention. One Goldwater came by and thanked the youth for Goldwater people and said that he had made a speech on the force, said, "conservatives grow up. If you want to take back this party, and I think you can just get organized". But then he came and he met with the youth for Goldwater people and said, "I think you ought to form a permanent organization, and if you do, I will support you". Likewise, the next day there was the... Marvin Leman had a meeting with both of the... from the leadership, both of those gentlemen. And that is where the discussion focused around, "we ought to form an organization. Well we have got to have a meeting, where will we have it?" And somebody, I think it was Leman, somebody said, "well, why do not we ask Bill Buckley if we can have it at his family upstate?" And that was the purpose for the meeting. Buckley family, his mother actually, it is her house, she agreed to do it. And then Caddy, who was working for the McGraw-Edison company, was given the time to organize and send all invitations that went to, I believe 120 college and undergrad graduate students, law students and others inviting them to come to the meeting at Sharon. This would have been... The convention was in July of (19)60, this would have been in August. They were invited at their own expense to come to a meeting in September 9 and 11 in Sharon, Connecticut at the Buckley family at Bay. Some 95, 96 people showed up, none of whom were over the age of 27. And I think, I do not know if there was a high school, there might have been one or two high schools. The rest of them were undergrad, grad and law school, or a very small number of 15 or so who were young professionals. And that is the meeting where the organization came into being. Buckley and Bill Buckley himself was there, along with Bill Rusher, who was there at the publisher, Marvin Leman Vic Milione, who was the president of Intercollegiate Society of Individualists, now known as Intercollegiate Studies Institute. SM (01:10:49): Oh yeah. Right in Delaware. Yep. WT (01:10:54): And Frank Pousel, who was Buckley's brother-in-law, had been the ghost writer for [inaudible] conservatives. Those five guys were all regarded as too old as senior mentors. And they were all, Buckley at that time was 35. The others were all in their 30, but they were too old. I mean, this is how young the conservative movement was at that time. That these guys, none of them would reach 40 with an outer state movement. And who were they? There were a couple who became Congressman, Bob... No, Bob [inaudible] John Kolbe from longtime congressman from Arizona Was there, there were a number of writers, other individuals, the list they [inaudible]. SM (01:12:00): What and what were their ultimate, were their main goals when they left after that meeting. What were the main goals they wanted to accomplish? WT (01:12:08): Number one, organize. And come together so they could network and share their experiences and try to advance conservative principles on college campuses and in community. And as a secondary goal, as a more specific one, was to advance the possible candidacy of Barry Goldwater. SM (01:12:34): Yeah, that is important because I am going to skip 9-A here for a second. I want to go right to 10 because this is something... Even if it is just general knowledge, people who do not read a lot of history but know basic information, and I have heard this a long time, that the 64 Goldwater Miller campaign has often been somewhat misunderstood with the respect to its importance in American politics in the last half of 20th century. In the years following the election, people remember how one side of the election was, Goldwater was basically destroyed by Johnson in the election. However, it was a major step in the creation of the conservative party and weigh it's influence in American politics that had gone unreported. Why is... When we think of that election, we think of that great quote from Goldwater, that we think of... and we think of the pick the person that no one really knew whose daughter has gone on to become a pretty good political commentator herself. And then of course that he was a good senator, but he should not have been running for president. Yet. He was so important. WT (01:13:49): Yeah-yeah, exactly. SM (01:13:51): And so, people downplay this moment because he got creamed. WT (01:13:55): Yeah-yeah, yeah, exactly. SM (01:13:57): Your thoughts on anything there on that? WT (01:14:00): Okay. All right, let us go back. In the early (19)60s when YAF was founded after the 1960 presidential... YAF was founded just after the presidential election. Well, let us go beyond that election. Kennedy's elected. Goldwater is the hero of the right, particularly among young conservatives. And there a growing number of them on college campuses to a large degree in that period of the early (19)60s, there was a radical movement on college campuses. It was of conservatives. Conservatives were the outspoken advocates. There is a quote I have in the book from one student at University of Wisconsin and he says, "when I walk around campus with my Goldwater button on, you feel the thrill of treason". And I think that summarizes to a large extent the attitude of people who were in YAF, who were backing Goldwater is we are doing something that is against the establishment that is going to change society. And here is the guy who can lead it. Conscience of a conservative became through its paperback edition a tremendous seller on college campuses and an influence. So, Goldwater became very much the leader and the political, I mean Buckley was somewhat the ideological leader, philosophical leader, but Goldwater was the political figure around whom everyone in the organization and on the right really identified, but there was no one else. And what was building up in our minds and in Goldwater's mind and in many people’s, mind was a clash of philosophical and ideological importance in 1964, when Kennedy would defend liberalism and Goldwater would defend conservatism in America would have the great debate over which way the country ought to be moving. Goldwater and Kennedy is... From Goldwater's perspective, at least in the books and things that I have read, was felt a friendship with Kennedy. And they were individually liked each other, but obviously disagreed on philosophical positions. And Goldwater had this, whether it's a totally optimistic idea or not, but he reports that he had talked with Kennedy and they had even discussed the possibility of these are just the early days before a lot of securities concerns now that they would go on a plane from city to city and debate probably never would have come into being, but that is at least what he said or has said. But that is indicative of the way he was approaching that 1964 election and many people were. Then comes November of 22nd of 1963, the tragedy in Dallas, which results obviously not only in the assassination of the president and to the White House of Lyndon Johnson. But in the media at that time, a black mark on conservatives, the blame is, even though there's obviously a reason for it, and Lee Harvey Oswald was who he was, that somehow conservatives because they were strong and in Dallas were responsible for all this. You still there? SM (01:17:39): Yep, I am here. WT (01:17:42): Okay, because I am getting bleeps on my phone. I do not know what is going on. SM (01:17:47): Oh, I hope your power is not going out again. WT (01:17:49): Oh, hold on for just a minute. SM (01:17:50): Yep. WT (01:17:52): Oh, it says low battery. Hold on, let me... SM (01:17:57): You have your regular phone? WT (01:17:59): Pardon? SM (01:17:59): Do you have your regular phone landline or? WT (01:18:03): No, this is the landline. Hold on, see if I can get another one. SM (01:18:06): Okay. WT (01:18:06): Maybe, hold on, [inaudible]. (01:18:07): Are you there? SM (01:18:20): Yep, I am here. WT (01:18:21): Okay. All right. Okay. There is going to be this great debate and then comes Johnson and Johnson's totally different guy and Goldwater is totally demoralized. Probably does not want to run for them at that point, but he says, and I quote this in the book, "they came to me and they said there were all these young people who wanted me to run and were encouraged and developed all across the country". And so, I said, "okay, I will go". That is probably kind of a little bit of literary licensed by Goldwater there and his motivation. But anyway, it does stress how important the youth movement across the country was in backing Goldwater and motivate him to run. SM (01:19:15): Well. I am glad. WT (01:19:15): And that is it. SM (01:19:17): Yeah. Well, I am glad you present this because, when people are reading these oral history interviews, I want them to learn and I... It is like, for example, when Harry Summers, I do not know if you know Colonel Summers, before he passed away, we had him come to Westchester University to talk about the Vietnam War and he said the one thing that they never teach in courses on the Vietnam War, on the university campuses, is the military point of view. And so we had Harry coming and then he got very sick and then he died. And so same thing, certain things are left out, I do not want things left out. WT (01:20:02): Yeah, exactly. And that is it. So, it was from that Goldwater movement that so many people who were active in the (19)90s and the early part of the 21st century in conservative movement really got their start. Whether they were high school students, many of them were, or college students or young adults. And the important lesson, I guess also, that I would emphasize is, and I think this is a message for some of the people who are involved in the Tea Party perhaps, although a different outcome there, is they did not give up after that defeat, which was a resounding defeat. They said, it is time to organize and keep fighting and went on in the ones in California elected Reagan as governor in (19)66, and then in New York in (19)70 elected Jim Buckley and were involved in Reagan's presidential campaign. SM (01:21:02): That goes right... I am actually going to do questions 11 and 12 before 9-A. And that is that, when Ronald Reagan came to power in California, he took on two issues, which was obviously the law and order issue to stop the student protests and the destruction of the classes, and particularly against the free speech movement and the people's parks situation (19)69. And then he fired the President Kurt, for not being tough enough with students. And then of course he wanted to end the welfare state. He was against the system of welfare and he hoped to stop it. And he used those two issues. Also, law and order and welfare when he ran for president, yet became connected to Ronald Reagan in (19)76 and (19)80 and beyond. How important was their role in his election as governor in California? And then of course his election as President of the United States? WT (01:21:56): Very important in, let us take (19)66, the first election, it was people who were associated with YAF who were head of the students were Reagan [inaudible] and went on... As a matter of fact, YAF was able to recruit at that time, there was a guy by the name of Sam Yorty who had been the Democratic mayor of Los Angeles. SM (01:22:22): Oh yeah, I remember. Yep. WT (01:22:22): Democratic Governors nomination, the leader of the youth for Yorty, the leader of youth for Christopher. There was a former San Francisco mayor by the name of George Christopher who ran against Reagan in the Republican Party and both of their youth leaders joined YAF along with the people who were involved in the Reagan campaign and all backed Reagan in the general election. Who were some of these people? Sean Steele, who is now the Republican National Committee man from California and is the former Republican state chairman of California, was the head of high school students for Reagan. And later on, the national board of YAF. Dana Rohrabacher, who's a congressman from Orange County since the last 20 years, I guess. SM (01:23:16): Yes. He has been on TV a lot. WT (01:23:21): Yeah. He was one of the high school leaders for Reagan in 66 and went on to be very involved and eventually ended up being a speech writer at the White House when Reagan went to president, prior to being elected to Congress. Bill Cinosino who is a very active political consultant in California was also a leader of the youth for Reagan. I think he just started at USC then. So those were a few, there were a number of others who were very active in his election. And it came to the point where as Cinosino and others said from that point on, YAF and Reagan were tied at the hip, and whatever Reagan did as governor was reflective of YAF, and somewhat vice versa. When YAF got into some ideological disputes at its 1969 convention, and some of the more libertarian members were going off doing things like advocating the legalization of marijuana and draft resistant, a few other things like that. Some of them were removed from the organization, but Reagan was very much concerned about what was happening to the organization. In my book, I cite some correspondence... SM (01:24:49): Yes-yes. WT (01:24:49): ... From Bill Buckley about this and indicative of how closely the two were associated for YAF, whatever Reagan did was a reflection on YAF, but vice versa, whatever YAF did was a reflection on Reagan. And Reagan was obviously looking to his 1970 reelection. SM (01:25:10): Yes. WT (01:25:11): And concerned about what was this youth group doing, that might embarrass him. But not that he wanted to divorce himself from it, but he wanted to be concerned to make sure was on the right track. So that is it. SM (01:25:25): Yeah. You do a great job in the book of explaining that in 69 when students from Democratic Society was having their issues in terms of the direction they were going, and of course they went the wrong direction with the weather men, and then many quit SDS, this same time was the timeframe that these battles were going on for the conscience of the young Americans for Freedom. WT (01:25:54): Exactly. SM (01:25:55): And so that... See, that is an important part of history that also has to be known. WT (01:26:00): Right-right. I agree. SM (01:26:03): I have always wondered your thoughts on the press because, and many people that I have interviewed for this project say, the press always loves to sensationalize the bad and not really talk about what is the good. When you, please describe the press in the (19)60s and early (19)70s and white groups like SDS, the Weathermen, the Panthers, AIM, Vietnam vets against the war, Brown Berets, now, all these other groups, environmental groups, received greater press than YAF. Why was YAF shut out, so to speak, and what was their stand? Well, why was the press not talking more about the Young Americans for Freedom? WT (01:26:41): Well, it depends. There was some discussion, not as much national, but I think I cite a few things in my book, a couple articles in Parade Magazine, there was an interview with Philip Appaloosa at the time was college director at [inaudible] Playboy, and there was some coverage and some local news, but mainly the coverage occurred when we were having counter demonstrations or rallies in opposition to the left. I do think that the left caught the attention of the media because of the kinds of activities they engaged in, the more drama that is associated with or takeover or protests of one sort or another. And admittedly, those things, perhaps bad news is more reflective in the media than good news. And that is just kind of the way it is. People do good deeds every day, but they do not get in the news. SM (01:27:53): What was their stand on the Vietnam War it's my understanding that they oppose the war, but received little coverage. WT (01:28:00): Now, who opposed the war? SM (01:28:02): The YAF. WT (01:28:05): No. No. SM (01:28:05): That is not true? WT (01:28:07): That is not true. I do not know of anyone of substance in the organization that opposed the war. As we get into the (19)70s, there is a discussion in how important that ought to be pushed as an issue, and some people in the organization are getting very depressed about the outcome of the war, but I do not think they... And they said we ought to downplay our involvement in support of the war, but not that they were opposed to the war. SM (01:28:44): Do you like the term boomer generation? Is there a better term that you feel describes this, 74 to 79 million born between (19)46 and (19)64? WT (01:28:57): No, that I think it is fine, and I think it is the reflection of population patterns that occurred after the World War II. So, no, I do not have any problem with it. SM (01:29:12): I am going to get to 9-A eventually here, but I want to mention also about the fact that Dana, I have worked with the Young Americas Foundation for many years when I worked in the university with Pat Coyle and... WT (01:29:21): Oh yeah. SM (01:29:22): I got to know Ron Robinson just in the past year, and I had Michelle Easton on our campus. But what is interesting is, and I have had some conversations with Pat about this several years back, and that is that, I am an activist and he is doing organizing activists who are conservatives. And I have always had this feeling that when, this is my question here, when one thinks of activists, oftentimes some people think of liberals, not conservatives, but activism is no political boundaries. Everyone can be an activist. And so it is. Do you feel as a former leader of YAF that groups like YAF are not considered activists by the media because they are conservative, not liberal? It is just something that I have always had a question on. WT (01:30:10): No, I am not sure that is true. I think it probably was true during the period of time that we were reflecting on mainly here. But I think if we look at the time today, the media portrays the Tea party as activist, and indeed they are. And so, I am not quite sure. I think it's just that they did not give that much coverage to what YAF was doing. It is not that they did not regard them as activists, but I may be wrong on that. SM (01:30:44): We already talked about number 15, so we do not have to go over that again before we get 16. I want to read this for the record. This is a question I have asked everyone from day one. This is just a question now, it is an observation. The extreme rank, and I am going to read it for the record. The extreme right and conservative forces like to blame the generation that grew up after World War II for many of the problems we have in American society today due to the sexual revolution, the breakup of the American family, loss of church and synagogue attendants, extensive drug culture, the rise in the divorce rate, the "I want it now" mentality that some say caused the current financial crisis in America, i.e. A consumption society due to the fact that they were oftentimes spoiled as kids. The creation of the welfare state mentality where people ask for handouts or expect something for doing nothing or no sense of responsibility, lack of respect for people and authority, people and authority from all types of professions and leadership, lack of law and order due to student citizen protests in the (19)60s, (19)70s, and in some (19)50s, too many led to violence, arrogance, " we are right and you are wrong" mentality, extensive rights, complaints, indoctrination over education in our schools over higher learning. How do you respond as a fellow conservative to these criticisms? Sort a generation of 74 to 79 million who grew up after World War II and challenged the way they were brought up in the (19)50s via actions in the (19)60s, (19)70s, (19)80s, and beyond. And I end by saying, many people believe that this is really about the culture wars, your thoughts, knowing we went through a period in the late (19)80s, (19)90s and beyond where political correctness was used every day. I saw it every day in the university. It's less so today, leaders who have made negative comments about the excesses of the (19)60s and (19)70s include Newt Gingrich in (19)94. George Will and many of his columns over the years, David Horowitz, who went from an extreme leftist to extreme member of the right governor Huckabee on his TV show, Fox Channel, and people like O'Reilly, Beck on Fox, and of course Limbaugh on Radio. Your thoughts. WT (01:33:08): Wow, that is a tough one. First of all, I think you have obviously cited a number of the issues that have changed in American society. I think some for the good and some not for the good. And it has been, in a sense, a growth of individual expression in many ways, and a breakdown of the social barriers and mores that listed before. But I think there were all kinds of people who came out of this generation, and I do not think you can face a blanket responsibility on them. So yes, there have been some negatives, but there has been an awful lot of positives that have come out of the period of time in terms of our ability technologically and otherwise to communicate and to operate. Certainly, during this period of time, the downfall of the Soviet Union and international communist, certainly a positive, the internet, the technological development that are the [inaudible] So there is pluses in the minuses, and I do not think you can divide an entire generation. So. SM (01:34:36): Do you think that a lot of this is, we are still going through culture wars from that period, and we see... WT (01:34:42): Yeah. Yeah. SM (01:34:42): We seem to not be able to get over the (19)60s and (19)70s in just about anything. WT (01:34:47): Yes-yes, yes, that is true. And I think we are, and we are still fighting some of those wars, and these were issues that were not present when YAF was created. And through it is first period of time. We sometimes overlook, and I think I mentioned this in the book, I will just cite it here, that it was not until 1962 that the Supreme Court in (19)63, the Supreme Court came out with the prohibition on prayer in the public schools and Bible reading the readings prayer position, and then Ingovit versus Patali did not come out after YAF was founded. Of course, the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act came after that. And Roe versus Wade was not until 1973. So, in the early years in the formation of the organization, there were the so-called social issued were not a factor, and even later, as I talked about the connection to the women's movement in the [inaudible] there were divisions and diversity opinion... [inaudible] diversity of opinion. One of the founders at Sharon is a guy named Richard Cowan, who has devoted his life literally to legalization of marijuana, on an individual's right, I am an individual so I do whatever they want with their own body kind of libertarianism. Within the context yeah within the organization's history, social issues were not a dominant factor. Admittedly, again, as I indicated earlier, by the late (19)80s and on they had come with the remnant that is still around of what remains of the organization, they did become more of a rallying call. SM (01:36:52): Wow. The next question is detailed, broken into many parts. What were some of the issues that upset the Young Americans for Freedom students on a college campus in the (19)60s and (19)70s? How did they protest, how successful were they? And of course, we have already gone over they were upset with what happened at Columbia, Berkeley, Harvard, and Kent State and People's Park and college protests. But what were their tactics? How big were their numbers? Were they successful? Did they fail in areas? Of course, I know these are probably the areas and correct me if I am wrong, you have mentioned in your book that in areas where the left organized teach-ins, campuses being shut down, buildings taken over, classes disrupted, faculty use classrooms to discuss current issues not the material being studied, taking over offices where administration was centered, including presidential offices, faculty uniting with students, not allowing ROTC military recruiting on campus, empowering students to be part of all university decision making if such decisions were linked to the war, research money's coming in for research linked to the war, many church students tried to stop this, bringing controversial speakers to campus who encouraged increased protests and challenging the system. Where was YAFF on these situations and were there times when SDS and YAFF or other liberal groups united toward a cause like Vietnam and the draft? There is a lot involved in this question but... WT (01:38:37): Yeah. Okay. Back to how did they react, how did they protest these kinds of activities that were happening starting with the Berkeley and then Columbia and on? A couple different tactics we used, one was the creation of Majority Coalition. That is to try to unite other students and other organizations on campus as much as possible in opposition to the left takeover of the building, to the left's attempt to close down the universities and the violence that was occurring. Probably a good example of that was Columbia in (19)68 and then on. Majority Coalitions were then advocated throughout much of the (19)60s, (19)68, (19)69 period, as the approach to advising YAFF chapter to take. The main thing was "let us unite with whoever is with us for order on campus." And an outgrowth of that came from California, which was the Blue Button Movement and that is to distribute simple buttons were just blue, no words on them, to reflective of order and peace on campus and encourage students to wear those. There was some reaction in the organization to the Majority Coalition approach by saying, "Wait a minute, we are doing all the work why are not we getting any of the credit? We ought to be doing this as the YAFF chapter and not allow ourselves to be sucked into doing all the work for something amorphous like the Majority Coalition." In some places it was the YAFF chapter that actually did do this, organized meetings, had demonstrations, counter demonstrations and things like that. In the book I talk about some of the counter demonstrations at Columbia, at Kent State, at Ohio State and other places. They obviously were in favor of continuing ROTC and military recruiting, Dow Chemical recruiting on campus and expressed positions on that. The draft is an issue that YAFF, from 1966 on wanted to eliminate the draft. Yes, could be some common cause with organizations on the left, not necessarily SDS but other organizations on the left on the position of abolishing the draft. However, as I indicated before, YAFF was for peaceful efforts to get the draft abolished it was not in favor of violence or demonstrations [inaudible]. SM (01:41:37): There seemed to be something happening in the late (19)70s and it was not disco. There was something happening in the late (19)70s that was leading toward Ronald Reagan being elected president and I think young conservatives were a very important part of this. And maybe it was the conservatives were coming back into power and there was burnout from what had happened previously since John Kennedy became president. Since that election major... This is my perception and correct me if I am wrong, since that election in 1980, major conservative actors rose to power. And organizations like Young America's Foundation, the Intercollegiate Studies Institute, college Republicans have always been there. The Heritage Foundation and the American Enterprise Institute seem to become a much more major force in our society. Please give me a list of some of the personalities who begin. Well, you have already done that but is that true? Did they really... Is this their era when they really came to fruition? WT (01:42:43): Yes, yes. And I think that not only... Probably started with the 1976 campaign of Reagan to Oppose Gerald Ford to the Republican nomination. And personally I was a delegate to Reagan I was living in Arkansas teaching political science at that time and organized for Reagan in the Republican primary in Arkansas and then got elected to delegate Kansas City. And so many of us, there were, I think in the book I cite there were 85 or 90 Gaff members who were either delegates or alternates to that convention all of whom were pledged to Reagan. And then that built through the 1980 when Reagan was really start, excuse me, starting to be the heir apparent within the party and in his election. And then when then Benning gets [inaudible] and so many of these people were the people who took key staff positions in the administration. And either those who did not do that were involved in some of these extra governmental organization by cited who were after their service there went to Heritage American Enterprise [inaudible] Institute and other places like that. SM (01:44:17): Would you say that... I am into this really magic moment period and anything in history. And to me, the rise of Ronald Reagan first came about... I am a young guy and I am watching TV in the fall of (19)63 and I see him for a half hour speaking on national television on black and white TV for Barry Goldwater. WT (01:44:41): Yeah. Fall of (19)64. SM (01:44:43): Yeah. There was something about that moment I knew there was something happening here. WT (01:44:49): Yes, exactly. Exactly. SM (01:44:51): He was a great speaker, number one. But it is the way he talked, it is the way he presented I said, there is something going on here. WT (01:44:58): And the message. SM (01:44:59): Yes. WT (01:45:00): And the message was important at that time too. Yes, exactly. That is the impetus of the whole movement for the remainder of the 20th century in many ways. SM (01:45:11): Yeah. When President Reagan came to Power East stated, "We are back." What did he mean by that? WT (01:45:18): I am sorry. SM (01:45:19): He said we are back. Was he talking about... WT (01:45:23): Yes. Okay. What did he mean by that? He meant by that the country was back as a force in society and the American people were back. We had come out of the period of Lyndon, of Jimmy Carter and the malaise, the sense of America has limits, we cannot do everything, we have... We're living in an era when American power has to be looked at in a limited and we have to tone down our expectations for the future. And what Reagan was saying "We are back." Meaning that no, that is not the case, that we are still a shining city on a hill, that there is a future, there is optimism and we are still going to be a force for good in the world. SM (01:46:16): And then when President Bush came to power, he said, president Bush won, he said the Vietnam syndrome is over. And most people laugh at that because Vietnam is still in all of our discussions on foreign policy. What did he mean by that? WT (01:46:33): Well, I think he was hoping that it meant that our role in society and in the world... That first of all that we were not divided domestically anymore and that our role in the world was much stronger than, we could take a more active role in the world. And I agree with what you said, the Vietnam syndrome was not over I think it is still present with much of the boomer generation. SM (01:47:08): One of the things and I have interviewed several scholars at conservative think tanks and I remember one person, it will be in his interview, said that I am here because it's hard to survive in a predominantly liberal culture in today's universities. Do you agree with what he said? Many of the scholars, they could be at any university and they can probably be very successful be teachers but because they are conservative scholars or thinkers. It is hard to survive in what they consider a predominantly liberal culture. WT (01:47:46): Okay. SM (01:47:47): You believe that? WT (01:47:48): Let me try to answer this a different way. Number one, I think you have to take into consider consideration individual personalities. Some people who would be conservative in that kind of environment would get a thrill out of it because they want to be different, they want to be the outspoken individual and they might actually thrive in that kind of situation. And I think if you look at a number who are on college campuses, you might find that. I think a Robert Fork or a Judge Scalia would thrive in that because they like being that kind of a person. Others might because of their personality that they are being isolated out, they are not getting the appointment to the right committees, they are not being moved up from associate to full professor, et cetera, et cetera. I think that is more an individual's response to the situation in which they find themselves. Now, as to me personally, if we want to just spend a minute on that, I taught at Arkansas State full-time for three years. I was in an environment that was most hospitable. The chairwoman was a Democrat but I'd say probably a fairly moderate conservative Democrat. The department had 10 members there were probably five of us who voted Republicans so it was [inaudible], that environment I taught as an adjunct and at so what was then called Southwest Texas State University and they brought the southwest Texas State University now, for four years. The chairman, I have no idea what his politics were but he and I got along fine and I got along fine with the other people and I did not feel any animosity there so personally that did not hit home. But I know as you have indicated, there are others who have said that was... SM (01:50:02): Yeah. Well, when I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly actually was at the CPAC conference this past year because she was going to be in the Washington DC area and she granted me an hour and I know she was very tired so I really appreciated it and then David Horowitz has been on our campus several times. But in their writings and conversations, they have stated that they think that the troublemakers of the (19)60s and early (19)70s are the people that run today's universities and control many of the academic departments. Do you believe this to be true and if this is true, where is the young Americans for Freedom, the student organizations on campus fighting this? And I emphasize that one of the contributions that many people say that has, of the boomer generation is the fact that in the studies departments at all universities, whether it be gay/lesbian studies, women's studies, holocaust, black studies, peace studies, Asian American studies, Chicano, black studies, women's studies, that this is one of the positives that came out of the boomer generation. And so, there is no question that one of the results of the (19)60s and (19)70s is that these areas became a reality in higher ed. Your thoughts on that is a contribution from the boomer generation and the number two, the troublemakers question. WT (01:51:35): Yes, one could say that is a contribution in that period of time and an outgrowth of the first question of the troublemakers being now in charge. And I say contribution not in a positive sense but I think all these are fake studies in many ways and they are so specialized that they do not really belong in a Liberal Arts environment. But yes, they are a contribution of that much of the people from the left in the (19)60s and the (19)70s had went into academic careers, hold many departments and that part of it I think is true. And we [inaudible]. Bernadine Thorn and her husband, Bill, whatever his name is... SM (01:52:36): Bill Airs. WT (01:52:37): Yeah. Airs, yeah. As classic examples. Angela Davis is teaching on a college campus in California so there's many and many who are less identifiable names were of the left who were all across the country. Part of that I think, is that there was... SM (01:53:00): Hold on, can you hold? (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Wayne Thorborn Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thorburn, Wayne J. 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Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hallahan, William A. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview O'Neil, Dan Date of Interview 1978-04-25 Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2016-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 44:13 Minutes Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE55938">Interview with William A. Hallahan</a> Subject LCSH Hallahan, William A. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Groton (N.Y.); Baseball players -- Interviews; St. Louis Cardinals (Baseball team); World Series (Baseball); General Aniline & Film Corporation, Division of Ozalid; Little League baseball Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: William A. Hallahan Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil Date of Interview: 25 April 1978 Dan: Ah Bill, would you tell me about your life and working experiences in the community, with emphasis on your baseball career? Bill: Do you want my birth record and so forth? Dan: Just your date and place of birth. Bill: I was born in Binghamton. Dan: Mhmm. Just go right ahead, Bill. Bill: August 4, 1902. Dan: OK. Bill: Which makes me a senior. Dan: A senior citizen, right. Bill: Then I went to, ah, Robinson Street School. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: And for baseball, I went to Groton, New York—do you know where that is? Dan: I know where that is, yes, outside of Cortland. Bill: They had a good team. In those da , the plant, the factory supported a ball team and John Hadlik was the manager—he was a former Binghartton player with the New York State League and National League—and I was there for two years. That would be in 1922 or '23, so, ah, 21, 21 and 22. Dan: How old were you at that time? Bill: 18 l think, ah, so ah I did pretty well—pitched pretty well up there, and Syracuse was a Cardinal farm, of course, it was a farm then and also Hadlik was scouting for the Cardinals, so I signed with the Cardinals in 1924 at Bradenton, Florida. I remember getting into the hotel and asking where the ballpark was—clerk told me, “Go up the street a ways and turn to your right, and keep going just a few miles.” So I walked, walked it carrying your baseball suit and so on, and I got there. Ah, Herbie Sanders was our trainer at that time, and I asked him where Mr. Rickey was, you know—”find the fellow with the slouched hat near the batting cage.” I went out and introduced myself to Mr. Rickey. He called one of the catchers, Joe Sutherland—he was a veteran—and he said, "Joe," he said. I just got off the train, you might say, and I was getting ready to go on up to pitch batting practice—so I pitched batting practice. It was unheard of in those days, nobody does it, but it worked out all right, and I never saw so many ballplayers because they had played from several of their farms. The Cardinals at that time had something like 25 farm teams that were players that they owned outright for important games. Dan: But the closest was Syracuse, right? Bill: Syracuse, right. For here, so I, ah, thought, “how are you ever going to get noticed? Who is ever going to see you with all those fellows?” So all you could do was, ah, keep moving. Oh, I'd run, run, run—chase the ball, run back with it and then hit it, and they were noticing, because on the last day of training, had us all in the big ballroom of the hotel talking. Finally he said, "Well, there's one young,” said, “there’s a fella here that hasn't stopped running since he got here.” So I had to stand up and take a bow, so it did show, if you, ah, keep moving, somebody's going to see you. Dan: Right. Bill: And so, ah, I came back north with Syracuse, back up to Syracuse and stayed at Syracuse for a month, I believe, and then I went to Fort Smith, Arkansas. That was another farm, and in Fort Smith, I made all the places I never heard of before: Okmulgee, Muskogee, all those in Oklahoma and, Paron, Topeka, Kansas. I was there about three weeks, and I moved again to Kalamazoo in Michigan—Ontario League, which was beautiful, nice and cool—and, ah, I was there until the season ended, and I was doing pretty well, and I was called back to St. Louis and finished the season with St. Louis. There was quite a bit of traveling that year and we got to see all the large cities in the National League, and traveling on the trains, which was wonderful—beautiful hotels. Funny when I had never been out of Binghamton—never—so kind of a trip, you know. Well the next year, ‘25, we trained in, in Stockton, California, so there was more nice traveling. I come back and was with St. Louis, oh, ‘til June, I think, and then sent to Syracuse again. So after the season was over in Syracuse, why, I returned to St. Louis the following year, 1926. We trained in San Antonio, Texas—Roger Hornsby was the manager. Dan: What part of Texas? Bill: San Antonio. Dan: San Antonio—OK. Bill: And Roger Hornsby was the manager. I was living, I was on the trip around the circuit, as I say, when Hornsby hit .424. That's a terrific batting average. Dan: It sure is. Bill: So, ah, I started in spring—I stayed the full season—and it was the first Pennant and the World Series with the Cardinals won period, and the next year I returned to Syracuse and I finally went back to St. Louis ‘cause in those days the, ah, clubs could do all they wanted to. Could send you out for two years prior—call you back, keep you a year, send you out for two more, and if anybody else wanted you, why, the Cardinals were deep in players. They had the ah, the ah, farm system and it was great, so you just had to wait—so I won 19 games in Syracuse and we finished second, and they didn't have room for me in the Cardinals, so they wanted to go to Houston, Texas, because they promised me a pennant down there. So I didn't care much about going, but the ah, the, ah, General Manager of Houston came up to Binghamton during the winter to, ah, try to coax me into going down there. I thought it would be a bit too warm for me, but finally decided to go and, ah, I had a good year. I won something like 24 games, and we won the pennant and we won the Dixie Series and I, ah, went up to St. Louis that Fall for the World Series—the manager of Houston took me up. So then I talked with Mr. Rickey—I signed for the following years. Dan: For the following years—that was what year now? Bill: That would be 1929. Dan: 1929, and so in other words, ah, they were in the World Series in 1928? Bill: Yeah, but I wasn't with them. Dan: You weren't with them but they won, they won the Series. Bill: No—they got beat four straight. Dan: Oh, they got beat four straight. Bill: I went up to see them— Dan: Oh, I see, OK. Bill: But in 1929, ah, Billy Southworth was the manager and I didn’t get to play too much—I won 4 and lost 1 game. In 1930 Gabby Street came in and then I started out pretty good. We won the pennant that year and played the Athletics. We didn't win, we didn't win the Series, but ah I pitched a shutout—I won one and lost one. Dan: This was in the Series? Bill: 1930. Dan: 1930, against the Athletics. Bill: Mhmm, in 1931, we played the Athletics again—we won the pennant. I won 2 games, won 2 games and saved the 7th in that Series, and then in '32, '33, '34 we won the pennant and played Detroit. I started the second game in Detroit, and it was a good game and I was relieved in the 8th—pitched 8 and two thirds innings, I think. The score was tied and a man on First, and they brought in Bill Walker. He picked the man off 1st base, and the game went 12 innings—we lost 3 to 2—there was no decision. So then I stayed with the Cardinals until '36, and then I was with Cincinnati a year and with ah Philadelphia a year, and those were ah, years you like to forget, you know. In the last years, everything was downhill, but ah, ah then when I came back home, I was worked with the Atlantic baseball school—they used to have, Atlantic Oil used to have a baseball school they run the summer. Whitey Anderson was the head of the baseball school. Dan: That's here? Bill: Mhmm, in Binghamton, and that would be in 1940 and in 1941—the War started in December 1941. Dan: Right. Bill: I was in the Army in August 1942 up at Fort Niagara. They had a good ball team up there too—I didn't play—I coached a little. We played, ah, pretty good teams, and ah, I stayed up there ’til—see, March the following year in '43, I think, and we had, ah, we were over 38, you see, you get out of service—they released us. Dan: I see. Bill: So that's how I got out. Dan: So in other words you just went up to Fort Niagara and you stayed there and coached baseball? Bill: I worked in the records and assignment. Dan: Records and assignment—but you, ah, did coach some teams up there? Bill: Yeah. Dan: And then you were discharged in '43. Bill: In '43 of March, went to Ozalid, and I was with Ozalid for 20 years. Dan: Until ‘63. Bill: ’Til ‘63. Dan: Uh huh, and you retired from Ozalid, and in what capacity did you work for Ozalid? Bill: I was a foreman. Dan: A foreman—in what department, Bill? Bill: I was, ah, warehousing, receiving, receiving warehousing and supply clerk. Dan: Mhmm. Bill: And so that one time it was on Clinton Street—ah, that big warehouse that Ansco has now. Dan: Yeah, yeah. Bill; We had that when it was first built. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: So that about takes care of it. Dan: Now getting back to your baseball career—at the height of your career, which would be with the St. Louis Cardinals when you pitched in the, ah, let’s see, the World Series against the Athletics that you won—you won 2 pennants in the 2 World Series. Bill: We won 3 World Series out of—we was in 4 World Series—we won 3. Dan: Yeah, pardon me just a minute Bill. (Wife turns on TV too loud). OK. Bill: Won 2 out of 4. Dan: Won 2 out of 4? Bill: 3 out of 4. Dan: 3 out of 4, OK. Now at the height of your season, what was your salary per year, Bill? Do you mind telling me? Bill: No. I think it was around 7 or 6—I got more than most of the fellas—it was around $7,000. Dan: $7,000—quite a difference from what they get today. Bill: I mean, that was when I got first started. I ended up getting $13,500. Dan: $13,500 at the height of your career—that would be pitching with the Cardinals. Bill: Regular pitching. Dan: Yeah. Bill: Yeah, regular pitching. Dan: What was the best year you had in the, ah— Bill: '31, when I won 19 and lost 9, I think, then won 2 games in the World Series, saved the 7th and deciding game—led the League in strikeouts. In 1930, I played, I led that both years, I led the League in strikeouts. Dan: You led the league in strikeouts? Ball: I won in walks too, probably. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: Branch Rickey used to say that if you can strike out more than you walk, why, you have some advantage. Dan: How did you get the nickname "Wild Bill"? Bill: (Gesturing) Dan: That's it—by walking. Bill: By in and low, which you call it—control—in the early days, but ah, ah, a power pitcher always has a little more trouble with control than a— Dan: Uh huh—now, did you ever pitch against the Yankees? Bill: Oh, in spring training, yes. Dan: Spring training, but not in the regular season. Bill: No, because they're— Dan: Same league. Bill: They're in a different league. Dan: Different league—yeah. Bill: I pitched against some—quite a few of the Yankees, in fact. I started the first All-Star game in 1933—Babe Ruth hit a home run. Dan: Off of you? Bill: Yeah, so that's one reason. Dan: Who were some of the other members of your team that, ah, that ah won the Series? Bill: Oh, ah, in the thirties, '30, '31, Jim Dowling, Frankie Frisch, Pepper Martin, ah, Chick Hafey and Charlie Delbert and Jess Haines, Burley Grimes, and in ‘34 it was the Dean brothers, Paul and Dizzy Dean, Pepper Martin, Joe Medwick, Vern Lasabe—Frankie Frisch was the manager, Leo Durocher was shortstop, Rip Collins, Jim Collins was first base. Dan: This is on the— Bill: The ‘34 team. Dan: ‘34 team. Bill: '34 team. Dan: The Cardinals. Bill: Yeah, we beat Detroit then. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: Mickey Cochron caught and managed Detroit, but ah, I roomed with Jim Bottemly and Joe Medwick. Bill Christy and an awful lot of those fellas who were on those both teams are in the Hall of Fame. Dan: Yeah. Bill: Yeah—quite a few of them. Dan: Have you ever been considered for the Hall of Fame? Bill: Oh, gee, they're standing in line waiting. Dan: Standing in line. Bill: They's so many of them. Dan: Yeah—any highlights stand out in your mind at all, as far as your baseball career? Bill: Well of course the, ah, World Series games, and in 1930 I pitched a game in Brooklyn, we went, we went into Brooklyn 1/2 game out of first place for a 3 game series, and I pitched against Dazzy Vance, who was quite a pitcher. Dan: Yeah. Bill: So I pitched the first game and won—it went 10 innings and I beat him 1 to 0, and they said that was the game that won the pennant for us, because we won the next two games against Philadelphia, and we came back to St. Louis and the season was over at St. Louis, so ah that was quite a one that I remember, you know, especially against a pitcher like Vance—he was one of the real power pitchers in my days. Dan: Yeah, uh huh—have you received any awards at all, Bill? Bill: Oh nothing for, ah— Dan: Any honors or anything like that? Bill: Nothing, only what all the other fellas would get for being on the team—you got a World Series ring. [Shows it to Dan on finger] Dan: Is that your World Series Ring? Bill: That's a 1934 World Series Ring. Dan: Uh huh—I've never seen one. Don't take it off, Bill—leave it on—don't take it off. Bill: You can see a little better, and when we were out, ah, in— Dan: You must have received, you must have received 3 of these. Bill: Yeah—we got this. [Shows Dan his watch]. Dan: This is a wristwatch. Bill: Yeah, in '76 we went to St. Louis for a reunion of the team that won the first pennant and World Series in St. Louis history. Dan: Is that right? Bill: And, ah, each got Longines Wittnauer from that reunion, and then I have a picture upstairs, a painting, from a photograph I got in '73—a reunion of the fellas in the first All-Star game. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: And, ah, you get a lot of, quite a few. Dan: The fact you got three World Series rings—that's really something. Bill: Well it is, because it has to have some measure of luck, you know, to be on the teams that are—I know a lot of the fellas that were great players that didn't even play on one team, not on our team. That's the way I happened to, ah, and at that time all the players would come up through the farm system. Today they, they come free agents and so on—we didn't have any of that. Dan: Yeah—what do you think about the salaries that they're getting today, Bill? Bill: Well I think— Dan: Do you think they're worth it? Bill: Well of course nothing is, ah. Dan: Everything is inflation, you know, today. Bill: It isn't what you're worth actually, it's, ah, if they can pay them, if they can make enough money. Dan: In other words a drawing card, right? Bill: If they can hit, why, they must deserve it—they couldn't get it, that's true. Dan: Yeah. Bill: Things are different today, ah, in everything, is different. Dan: ‘Course you've got to consider the fact that when, ah, when the height of your career there wasn't any television. Bill: No. Dan: Which is, ah, a big item. Bill: Oh, that’s made the—ah, television and, ah, night games. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: They didn't have that—why I played most of my, ah, ah, during the Depression. Dan: Right, right. Bill: And every city you'd see, there'd be people hadn't seen anything ’til they see the soup lines. Those people were really hungry. Dan: Uh huh. Now when you, ah, got out of service you went right to Ozalid—you worked there for 20 years and you're getting a pension from them, of course. Did you do any coaching at all in the 20 years that you worked? Bill: No, the only thing I coached was the Little League when they first had the Little League team—League in Johnson City. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: And, ah, they asked me if I’d take over, and ah, we, ah, spent a lot of time with them because the kids wanted to play. We played twice a week, ah, but they wanted to have another game on Saturday, and so we used to play and, ah, we won the pennant—went as far as Liverpool, we played some of the finals—the semifinals in Liverpool. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: We got beat in Liverpool 2 to 1, but we had a good time. Dan: You mentioned when Branch Rickey was watching you in batting practice, was that in Syracuse or was that out in St. Louis? Bill: No, that was in Bradenton. Dan: Bradenton. Bill: Florida, spring training. Dan: Oh, in spring training. Bill: Spring training. Dan: I see, I see. Bill: But, ah, today everything is different of course. Dan: Oh, sure. Bill: In those days you'd know who, ah, one of the stars were, but today you wouldn't know—they all come out together at once—you wouldn't know who's the star and who's the rookie. The rookie is liable to have a good big a car as the stars—maybe he got a bonus for signing or something like that, and ah, everything was different—even the ballparks are all tremendous today. Dan: Yeah. Bill: Ah, the ballparks you knew, the ballpark in Philadelphia in the National League was so small they called it "Baker Bowl.” It was, ah, very small—the seating capacity was nothing. The Shibe park was a much better park, that was in the American League park. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: But today everything—in St. Louis is a big beautiful locker room, wall to wall carpeting all on it. Dan: Oh, sure. Bill: Beautiful showers. Dan: Yeah. Bill: And the trainer has a room with all of his equipment. Dan: Yeah. Bill: And the equipment manager, the only fellow I know on the team, Butch Yatheman—and he was a bat boy when I was there—now he is the equipment manager, so he's been there 50 years and, ah, all that, ah, ah, of course the traveling is different, everything is by plane today. Dan: Right, right. Of course they play, probably, ah, more games per season too, now? Bill: 160, 160—they used to play 154. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: 160 or 62. Ah, I don't think there's as much togetherness now as there were at that time, ‘cause we were together on on the train and fellas had time to talk, and you'd talk baseball even in the lobbies of the hotel in the evening, it was great for down in and hear the veterans talk, you know. Dan: Sure, sure. Bill: I don't know how they do that as much now, because, why, they go from St. Louis to Chicago in a couple of hours and, you know, didn't have much time to speak—you're just in the ballpark and when you're in the clubhouse. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: But, ah, sometimes we'd go from St. Louis, ah, at least once a year to Boston—Reds back too. Dan: Mhmm. There was so much publicity over Maris breaking, ah, Ruth's homerun record that one year, but he played in more games than Ruth did. Bill: Oh yes, they all did so, do— Dan: Actually it isn't, it isn't a fair comparison, is it? Bill: Well, ah, you shouldn't—it wouldn't be, because and then you'd have to look at how many walks did each get—intentional walks? Dan: Yeah. Bill: You can't hit if you're walked—that's for sure, and the same with Hank Aaron. I mean they keep in more games. Dan: Yes, yes. Bill: But if you ever checked the number of times they were walked intentionally—but that's the difference. Dan: Yeah, yeah. Bill: In my, my—those fellows deserve all the credit, you know, they— Dan: Oh sure. Bill: —A lot of credit, but I always thought, ah, ah, the home run hitter—I will always remember—Babe Ruth. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: I mean he looked so much the part. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: He looked, ah, ah, when he was at bat—everything stopped—came to a standstill, you know. Everybody wanted to see him swing, but he did swing because he was one that say, he looked good striking out. Dan: Yeah. (Laughter). Bill: You know, aren't many that said looked that good. Dan: Right, right. Bill: That's quite a compliment when they say you look good striking out, and oh, when we came north we always played exhibition games—now they go direct from the, ah— Dan: Spring training. Bill: Spring training, right, back, ah, their home base. Dan: Right. Bill: But we used to play all over the south—if we ever come in, ah, for instance, some of our fellows would hit a long ball. Gee, they say some native here said, “Oh, the Yankees were in here last week and he hit one, he hit one that far, you know. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: Way over there, 500 feet. Dan: What was your best pitch, ah, Bill? Bill: I had a fastball and a curve. Dan: Fastball and curve, uh huh. Bill: Yeah, and I wasn't quite as tall, as big as some of those fellows, but we had a fellow on the team—Paul Derringer, he was 6’3" or 4". Dan: Uh huh. Bill: But I could throw as hard, so you make by. Dan: You lack one thing—you make up on another. Bill: Yeah, I could be, ah, throw hard and ah, have a terrific curve. Dan: Uh huh—well you've got a lot of nice memories, Bill. Bill: Oh the nice part about it, be able to look back and— Dan: Reminisce. Bill: When we, ah, like in ‘76 we went to St. Louis, there was 7 then out of the 27—there'd be 27 on the team. Dan: Only 7 left out of 27? Bill: Right. Dan: Is that right? Bill: Out of the first Pennant winning team—7. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: So they, they fade away. Dan: You look good, though, Bill. Did you just get back from Florida? Bill: That’s right—I had a little tan. Dan: Good. Bill: But, ah, we missed a good winter here, I guess. Dan: (Laughter) You picked a dandy. Bill: Well, it was bad all over the country. Dan: Yeah, yeah. Bill: It was, it was the wind every day and a chill. Dan: Right, right. Bill: But the sun was warm. Dan: Uh huh—now you belong to St. Patrick's Church, Bill. Bill: Yes. Dan: Uh huh, but do you belong to any clubs, any fraternal organizations or anything like that? Bill: Let’s see, I belong to the Elks, Knights of Columbus 4th Degree, ah, Veterans, Clinton Street—the 1st Ward Legion. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: Let’s see what else—the, ah, Baseball Players’ Association. I guess that's it. Dan: That's it—now do you have a reunion every year? Bill: Oh no—just for certain special things. Dan: Just, just, yeah—‘course, just being 7 of you left, why— Bill: Oh, that's first time we ever got together. Dan: Yeah, yeah. Bill: But ah, well, I've been out to Houston a couple of times—in New York too—the Stadium, and I’ve been out to St. Louis 6 or 7 times. Dan: Is that right, yeah? Bill: Because they'd have a reunion for all the different teams— Dan: Right. Bill: —that won a pennant. It's all been great. Dan: Yeah—did you ever pitch at any old timers’ games down in Yankee Stadium? They usually have an old timers. Bill: That's when I was out there, it was 1962 or 3. Dan: 1962 or 3. Bill: Yeah, but I didn't care about going out to pitch, because some of the fellows were coaching and so on, and they were in better shape than some of the older players. Dan: Yeah. Bill: Some of the players would get, ah, what's the use if you didn't get injured during your playing days? Why do it when you're a senior? Dan: Right, right—you never had any serious injuries, did you, playing, Bill? Bill: No, I was fortunate. Dan: Oh, you were lucky. Bill: Yeah, yeah, I was able to go through all that without. Dan: Right. Bill: And, ah, we don't get a pension—it didn't start until ‘45. Dan: No pension plan? Bill: Now they get a pension in 5 years. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: I played about 11 years. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: I have a lifetime pass. Dan: Uh huh. Bill : A silver lifetime pass—I've never used it. I hang on to it. I'd go, ah, but I don't know any of the players now. Dan: No, no, you're going back quite a few years. Bill: Yeah. Dan: Yeah. Bill: If I lived a lot closer I'd go, but I'd drive down for overnight or something like that just for— Dan: Well, is there anything else you'd like to tell me, Bill, or anything you can think of? Bill: No, before I got hit with a respiratory ailment in ‘69. Before that I used to play once in a while with Bishop Harrison when he was Monsignor. Dan: When he was known as McGee. (Laughter). Bill: Oh, I saw him down to the Broome Open last year, you know, when he was playing with Bob Hope and, ah, what's his name? The Merry Mex, ah, Lee Trevino. Dan: Lee Trevino, yeah. Bill: And ah, I followed him around for awhile—they had some fun—you know, they're all, and ah— Dan: You mentioned you played with Father Harrison now. Bill: Playing golf, yeah. Dan: Oh, playing golf, yeah. You know he used to be Assistant Pastor—no, was it? Yeah, he used to be over at St. Mary's and he used to play with Father O'Brien, and it came out in the paper, of course it wouldn't be Father Harrison but he'd be playing under the name of McGee. Bill: Yeah, but he taught me, he said he played out to Notre Dame—he was on the ball team out there, but he had a chance to go and really try in Minor League if he had a chance to go up, but he was going to do something else, but he used to be around the ballpark up there when I was playing up in Syracuse—old Star park. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: I used to live up on Tipperary Hill when I was in Syracuse. Dan: Tipperary Hill. Bill: Yeah. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: Up on, I think it was Hamilton Street—sometimes I forget, rather I stayed with people named Hamilton—it sounds like it was a street. Dan: Yeah. Bill: Up on Tipperary Hill. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: The green was always on top. Dan: What was this farm team, this St. Louis farm team called up at Syracuse? Bill: Stars. Dan: Stars. Bill: St. Louis Stars—the Syracuse Stars. Dan: Syracuse Stars, yeah. Bill: Shanks Shaughnessey was the manager one year up there and then Barney Shotten was the manager in '27 and he—we had quite a good team. He went to Philadelphia after and managed for a few years—he managed Brooklyn. Dan: Now who was managing when you won the series—those 3 years? Bill: Oh, Hornsby was managing them in ‘26. Dan: That was the farm league. Bill: No. Dan: Wasn't that the farm league—when you were down in Texas? Bill: No, oh, that was Snyder, Frank Snyder was managing the Houston team. Dan: I see. Bill: In St. Louis then, in ‘26, Hornsby was the manager. Dan: I see. Bill: And in ’30 Gabby Street, and in ’31 Gabby Street, and in ’34 Frankie Frisch. Dan: Frankie Frisch, uh huh. Bill: And he was killed a few years ago, coming north when a train came. Dan: Yes, yes, I read about that. Bill: Car accident—he was quite a ball player, he was. Dan: Yeah. Bill: God, he was a good one. Dan: Yeah. Bill: And Medwick, 2 years ago I think he died. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: Had a heart attack, and he was working with the Cardinals—he was the batting instructor. Dan: Uh huh. Bill: Well I think I've covered pretty well, haven't I, ah? Dan: Oh that's fine, Bill. I'll, if you like, I'll play it back for you. Bill: OK. Dan: Now Bill, you mentioned that you, ah, played in the 1st All Star game in 1933. Bill: Right. Dan: Now could you name the members of the team? Bill: No, I don't think so, I— Dan: The National League team. Bill: Yeah, I may be able to name most of those fellows, but ah, ah, to go through to name the American League, I don't. Dan: No, just your own team, your National League All-Stars. You were pitching, right? Bill: Yeah, and Gabby Street was catcher—I mean this is the starting, because they kept entering. Dan: Yeah. Bill: Gabby Street catching, Bill Terry was playing first, Frankie Frisch second—now if I can get the shortstop, ah, skip that for a minute. Pie Traynor was playing third, ah, Chick Hafey, Paul Waner, Mel Ott I think. Dan: Mel Ott. Bill: Mhmm, I know they played sometime during the game. Dan: Yeah, right, but that was the first World Series. Bill: All-Stars. Dan: All-Stars, rather, first All-Star game. OK, well thank you very much, Bill. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with William A. Hallahan Subject The topic of the resource Hallahan, William A. -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Groton (N.Y.); Baseball players -- Interviews; St. Louis Cardinals (Baseball team); World Series (Baseball); General Aniline & Film Corporation, Division of Ozalid; Little League baseball Description An account of the resource William A. Hallahan talks about his upbringing in Binghamton and the start of his baseball career in Groton, NY at the age of 18. He discusses playing for the<a href="http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/index.jsp?c_id=stl"> St. Louis Cardinals </a>and winning 3/4 of the World Series games in which he pitched. He also notes his time as the starting pitcher for the National League in the first All Star game in 1933. He details friendships with some of the big names in baseball of the time, including Babe Ruth. He later worked for Ozalid as a foreman and also as a coach for Little League baseball. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 30 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hallahan, William A. ; O'Neil, Dan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-04-25 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 44:13 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7aa70a0d704b41814bacb89ec854376f.mp3 c1f3e824f9db5f9a29ff3d2643b1b1fc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project. These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 10 September 2015 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marwan Tawfiq Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Zahir Qadir Language Kurdish Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Zahir Qadir https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0d9c14228ef5c4cb7953ff97e54c45f4.mp3 ed031f9c5344f1aa96441ed73b0b8b60 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project. These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. OHMS Object URL http://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cahcefile=ZekiTaha.xml Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Date of Interview 22 February 2013 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Erdem Ilter Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Zeki Taha Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 103:39 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Biographical Text Zeki was born in the city of Duhok in Iraqi Kurdistan and fled to the United States in 1996. He holds an associate’s degree in Marketing from SUNY Broome and he currently resides with his wife and three kids in Binghamton, NY. Keywords Kurdistan; Duhok; Refugee; Kurdish Culture; Muslim; Kurdish celebrations; Broome Community College; Binghamton Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Zeki Taha Interviewed by: Erdem Ilter Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 22 February 2013 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 EI: Yes, start with your name and surname, it is Zeki? 0:08 ZT: Zeki Taha. 0:09 EI: Yeah, when you born? 0:11 ZT: 1978. 0:12 EI: 1978. 0:14 ZT: Yes. July 1st, (19)78. 0:16 EI: Ok, you are Kurd and Muslim Sunni? 0:20 ZT: Muslim, yes. 0:21 EI: Sunni Kurd, ok. Marital status? 0:24 ZT: Married, three kids. 0:25 EI: Oh! Maşallah. Married with three kids. Ok, so how about your siblings and brothers, siblings? 0:36 ZT: Four to four, four brothers and four sisters. 0:39 EI: You are the- 0:40 ZT: The oldest one. 0:42 EI: Oldest one, and you are totally eight, nine? 0:44 ZT: I think ten because I have parents because four and four, yes. 0:48 EI: Okay, and what is your education level? 0:53 ZT: Associate degree with Marketing Management Sale. 0:56 EI: Great, where did you get it? 0:58 ZT: Broome Community College. 1:00 EI: Ah okay, so you were here. 1:02 ZT: Yes. 1:03 EI: How many years you are here? 1:05 ZT: I have been here since (19)97 so it is like fifteen, sixteen years right now since (19)96 we are out, the end of (19)96. 1:13 EI: When did you come here? 1:15 ZT: I think I came to the States in (19)97. 1:20 EI: 1997. Okay, great. You were in high school that time, or no? 1:26 ZT: I think I was in high school but I did not finish it because I was still seventeen years old; sixteen or seventeen years old when I came to this country. 1:32 EI: Actually let us start with your childhood, maybe we will come to that part later… How old the childhood before the school and do you remember anything about that? First thing the family and the small city or village, you were from Duhok right? 1:49 ZT: Duhok yes. 1:50 EI: Village of Duhok or the city? 1:52 ZT: The city- 1:53 EI: City of Dohuk. So how was the life, do you remember the childhood? 1:58 ZT: For us to be honest for the us it was normal because our parents did not tell us exactly how they were living, what kind of life they were living, the did not tell us exactly how bad it was , because when you are a kid you do not know exactly- 2:14 EI: They did not show you if they had a bad… Okay. 2:16 ZT: They did not show you the bad, you know the image, but when you grow up a little bit, little by little, day by day or year by year, now you learn more about life over there, because you do not have that kind of freedom, like the freedom you want to have because I think, I remember- 2:36 EI: What do you mean by freedom? 2:38 ZT: Freedom because Saddam Hussein knew you were Kurd and you know you got to be number two in that country. 2:45 EI: I mean you personally faced with it or? 2:49 ZT: What happened right now when you are a kid because you do not travel a lot you have to go with your parents and our parents you know they did not talk about it that much because they knew inside they were burning but they were scared to say something and somebody heard something from them because I am a kid I do not know exactly what is right and what is wrong, so if I tell somebody oh my parents does not like this government and you know it will happen to my parents they are going to be killed. 3:17 EI: I think it is a general problem because the other interviews they also said that if they told you something your family and you go to school and tell your teacher it will create problem you do not know what to happen- 3:32 ZT: Yes. See even right now like for example son is going to say something he does not know exactly if he is going to take me as a hard way or bad way so he is a kid he is a clean-minded, so he is going to say it, that is why our parents- 3:47 EI: You were aware that something was going on, or something is wrong but- 3:52 ZT: Yeah, when we got older and things like not when you travel, we see all these checkpoints and you say to yourself am I Iraqi citizen so why I have to be checked before I go out of the city? 4:03 EI: Aha, were you travelling a lot or your family? 4:10 ZT: No what happened because for example if you go for a trip or if you go for example for a school trip, like they take you from here to Syracuse. 4:23 EI: Okay. 4:23 ZT: So, if you go from Duhok and Duhok probably has one, two, two main gates; one coming from the city of Mosul, Nineveh and the other coming from Zawita, you go outside of Duhok. So, this is the main door, what happened right now if you go outside of these gates they have checkpoints and that checkpoints in the cities, they have like undercover people you know checking before there was no, what they call it, it is not like here it is not volunteering you going to enjoy the military, so they were asking from this age to that age has to join the military, if you not going to go and tomorrow if they see you, you have to had a good reason why you are not in the military otherwise they will take you may be killed or you may be in jail for the rest of your life. 5:17 EI: Saddam like he accepted the Kurdish army, right? I mean got the Kurds to the army, even if was. 5:27 ZT: Yes because what happened, they were asking for the age, and you had to go and fight, they did not care if you were Kurd or no but you just go fight, because he wanted to be in power you know and they do not want you to be you know to become like fight with Peshmerga, you know the Kurdish army that time and what happened right now because the people was so frustrated so many people become Peshmerga because I know if- 5:56 EI: Were there any Peshmerga within your life or extended family or in the region or what was the Peshmerga I mean? 6:06 ZT: Me personally I did not see Peshmerga until like late because we were young, and Peshmerga usually did not come to the cities and even my father knew some of them or my uncle or my cousin, they were scared to tell the United States because we were young like I told you, you had to be very careful what you are saying because there are fresh memory they going to say it. 6:31 EI: I mean you knew that there are Peshmergas but they were not in the cities? 6:35 ZT: Yes, we knew like when we got older like I do not say I do not exactly remember what age was it we knew there was a Peshmerga we know there was like they fight in the mountains like outside of the cities because what happened right now in this area was better for them to come to the cities because cities you know is dangerous because there is no places for you to hide so in a mountain there is no many people live over there so if you like a fifty or thousand whatever how many there, as soon as do your mission after that you going to be, each of you guys going to go separate way that way is going to be hiding, that was going to be harder for the military to go find those people but if you go to the city and face to face to fight, we knew it and they knew it because they only have like a small weapons like AK 47 or these weapons they are not going to defense yourself against tanks or with a plane that is why they were doing this and they were very strong minded like they were fighting for something they knew something is going to happen as today like the freedom that is why our leaders and everybody saying thank you to those Peshmerga sacrificed their lives; whoever got died, whoever got injured, whoever living still right now we are thanking them because we are seeing the best of Kurdistan so far because now I can talk I can talk to you, you can come to my place, I can go to your place nobody is forcing you to become anybody you do not want to be… like there are colleges open right now, you can attend any college you want, you can go to any major you want, you can be whoever you want; business man, you going to go to the military, this is your choice right now, before you did not have these kind of choices… 8:13 EI: Like a normal country you mean- 8:15 ZT: Exactly, right when we go right now to me this is why I said to you that day we were happy and I am proud to say I am a Kurd because our people are doing good, imagine if they were doing bad you know like the reputation is not that good in nationwide you know they talk about the, you say oh! I am sorry I am going to be embarrassed if I say I am this part or this place and I’m with guy because now you are proud because if you look at some of these Kurds like if you are American or if you Turkish or you are this, if your culture is doing good, you are proud to say I am this- 8:50 EI: You mean do not good like if they suppressed your people or there was no freedom. 8:55 ZT: No because these is no freedom like if you look at it right now, if you look at some of these countries like they have dictators, they are embarrassed to say I am from this country, not because of people they are embarrassed, if I say the people going to look at me in different eyes, oh! you are with this kind of group even if the people have nothing to do with it. 9:14 EI: I mean you are happy to say that you are I am Kurd. 9:18 ZT: I am Kurd you know I live in this place yes. 9:22 EI: So, how the childhood, do you have any special memories about childhood with your family I mean it will be about religious day, or Eid or I mean doing Ramadhan how was- 9:34 ZT: The best thing to be honest like even right now we miss those days. 9:38 EI: Maybe bad memories… or good memories that affected t you or you remember always from your childhood. 9:44 ZT: Yes, what happened right now because in Iraq the time even if you make money you are scared to do anything and parents are so afraid to say or do something because they know somebody is watching them or somebody is going to do something, So I think it was not I do not know. 10:00 EI: These are the nineteen eighties right you are talking about? 10:02 ZT: Yes probably eighties, eighty eight, eighty nine, I am not saying eighties because I was born like (19)78, (19)79 so imagine probably I am like ten or eleven years old, so one day I was telling my parents like my mum specially do not wake me up because I do not have shoes to go to Eid like to go celebrate, what happened right now because that time my father was working hard but the thing is right now. 10:30 EI: What was his job? 10:32 ZT: His job was like construction, you know they taking tanks, those trucks you know they taking like dirt from this place to that place or taking some of the stuff they working for construction if they build the roads. 10:46 EI: Building? 10:46 ZT: No, the roads, you know right now you do not have other choices so you have to do this and that time was the construction was even dangerous than military because sometime you are facing close to your enemy because when you build, when you are trying build the roads, or bridge or something it is not safe. 11:04 EI: I mean what was the authority there Saddam or was there any Kurdish rule? 11:09 ZT: No, that time until 1991 the big explosion. 11:16 EI: It was the Iraqi Road. 11:18 ZT: Yes, the Iraqi road. 11:19 EI: I mean when they get their salary it was from Iraq. 11:23 ZT: Yes, everything was Iraq, no Iraq was until wherever the year Iraq was established until 1991 none of the Kurd controlled anything or everything was under the control of Saddam Hussein and he was running the whole country. And your liked or do not like it you had to follow that law. So that is why I am saying right now…. 11:43 EI: I mean it is reality for now maybe it is weird but for that time it is reality you had to survive. 11:49 ZT: I tell everybody right now I do not argue; sometimes say why these people they do not do this because you do not know exactly what situation these people are in. 11:59 EI: Yeah exactly. 12:00 ZT: because you do not know exactly if they are living a good life or bad life, they live in a dangerous life or safe life so you cannot judge a person just looking at them an say why this guy not doing this, he should speak up for himself. 12:12 EI: Exactly 12:13 ZT: because we saw these things and we saw so many Kurds speaking up and they got killed and that was not just easy like I said to you our leader was saying we thought, the only friend of the United States is the mountains because everybody having these things because their head, because Peshmerga when they were fighting. 12:32 EI: It is so common among all Kurds I think. 12:37 ZT: Yes exactly if you talk to anybody they were afraid for their life even if you become part of their military or somebody, you are afraid because if one day even by mistake or I do not like you and go to that place wherever the cop was, whatever the type was if I go to them and say this guy doing this even if you are not doing it just because I do not like you, you would disappear, they going to beat you, your family; one of my cousin he was educated, really knowledgeable and working because he had no other choice you have to be in the military, so one day, because he was on vacation he was trying to go home with his family and may be one person they did not like him because maybe his friend for example you are from this part I am from that part, Like Arab and Kurd for example say that person he know, this guy is a knowledgeable person and he knows, he is really good and he is said something to his boss “oh these guys doing something bad what he is doing, he is making IDs and Passport and taking the Kurds outside the Iraq and sending them to other country” say for example Europe or going to Iran and from Iran they are travelling to Europe and this guy trying to come to home with his family and what happened right now a couple hour later they went to his house in Baghdad and taking a shower and leave to come to Duhok and they too they say your general or your boss or this person want to see you, and he said why because I saw him probably a couple of hours ago, so he went that minute and disappeared like for a year, his mum and dad and hour family none of them like our parents nobody knew what exactly where he was, if he is alive, in a prison. 14:39 EI: Even you did not know about him? 14:41 ZT: Nobody until they say probably like way-way back, I do not know nine months, eleven months, almost a year they got a letter saying if you want to see your son, he is in that prison, Abu-Ghraib in Baghdad or Basra, whatever the place was. 14:57 EI: It is so famous Abu-Ghraib. 14:58 ZT: One of the worst probably prison in the world and he did not know exactly what was going on and his family does not know what was going on and they were trying to go and see him and talk to him and he could not say anything that minute, but right now he said you see the worst beating in your life, whatever you imagine in your head like whatever you are going to be having dream about is reality in there, the worst like life you ever have like they torture you, they did not give you right food and the room was like probably eight by eleven or smaller room you can ever have for four, five people, if couple of them sit I do not think the other person can be sitting or he cannot lay your feet to make them comfortable and you have to go to the bathroom right over there so you would see all the worst thing in that room because you have to pee or like whatever happen is in that small room it is not like you have to be comfortable, or is going to be a separate bathroom or this or food is going to be one of these food you going to enjoy it, so the life was miserable he said that. He said that is why when they think after a couple of years and Saddam Hussein was you know letting some people you know go out because they had nothing on their names as soon as he got out from the prison and he ran, he went to Iran and I believe he went to Europe and he said I am not going to come to Iraq until this government is gone from the power because he saw so many torturing… Like the torture you even cannot imagine what kind of torturing like in your life because he said I saw everything. That is why I say right now and our parents knew this like my father knew it because he was part of our family too but he did not tell the United States, he did not say anything to young people because they knew if they going to say something the whole public village, the whole people going to be dying. 17:09 EI: So, you are telling about the memory or the story of Eid, you said- 17:15 ZT: Yes, so I told my mum do not wake me up because I do not have shoes and if you do not have new shoes. 17:19 EI: Was it because you were the financial problem or- 17:25 ZT: What happened, finance problem because they do not give you, even they give you some money like Iraq the rich, imagine Iraq was so rich nobody knew how much money Iraq can make would only deeds not just gas or oil and these things Iraq was so rich but the thing is Saddam Hussein knows one day Kurds is going to be running by their own government, he knew it that is why until like 1998 or 1999 the Iraqi part like Kurdistan did not have an airport, they did not have any infrastructure like a good road, like anything, why because Saddam Hussein knew one day this place or these cities are going to be out of his hands, he knew it because majority were Kurds that is why he was doing what they call it invasion, like Ta’reeb [Arabization] like what happened right now, this is why he was moving Kurds from north, he was taking them to the south and imagine you live in a mountain in a snow area like beautiful weather, you are not used to live in a desert, so they took a lot of, even I think a couple our families they went from because there was no choice, so they moved them from the northern. 18:54 EI: You mean displacement? 18:55 ZT: Yes, because he wanted to change the demographic of the whole country. 18:59 EI: What was the reason? 19:00 ZT: Because he did not want majority of a place to be Kurds, because what he was doing. 19:06 EI: What was the demographic situation of Duhok? 19:08 ZT: Duhok what happened right now there were Kurd like Muslim, Christian, Jewish, you mentioned they have all these ethnics and religion. 19:20 EI: But the majority were Kurd? 19:22 ZT: Majority was Kurd, even some of them like our friends were like Christians or other ethnics, me personally I thought they might be Muslim, why because they speak the same language, they were- 19:32 EI: All were Arabs right? 19:34 ZT: They were Kurds. No, they were speaking Kurdish but they had nothing in Kurdi lie you cannot speak or I have any paper like in office, if you need something has to be done with Arabic. 19:41 EI: With your family your language was Kurdish. 19:46 ZT: Kurdish. 19:47 EI: In street it was Kurdish but in school or state institution was Arabic. 19:53 ZT: School majority was Arabic like you had to, I think I remember I think was only one class of Kurdish and that Kurdish was not even like a right thing sometimes have some letters you know, word in Arabic so basically if you have like six classes, four of them is going to be Arabic like in fifth grade we had one class of English and we had one class probably Kurdish or not, sometimes in some classes like some like I think in elementary school there was not even one class in Kurdish. So, everything was Arabic. So we had to learn no matter if you like it or do not like it. 20:34 EI: So It was Education language, all state institution… were there any school that teach Kurdish or Kurdish school. 20:45 ZT: No. From one end to another end in Iraq everything was, if you were under the territory of government, because if you look at village of here it is under the Peshmerga, this not counted but the majority of Iraq was under control of Saddam Hussein, so everything had to be like Arabic school, because one of the interviewee said he got his education in Kurdish school, it was in Erbil I think. That is you said it was under Peshmerga control. 21:15 ZT: Yes-yes. 21:16 EI: So that is why but the majority was Arabic. 21:19 ZT: Arabic yes. Even couple of our cousin they got their education, they got their really good degrees but because they were Kurd, they were not allowed to go to their major, because they considered us as a second like in Iraq, if you … like in the United States right now nobody knows who is number one who is number two, we all think we are American and we have right to do whatever we want. 21:46 EI: So, you said there were Christian, Jewish and Arabs as well. So, what was your relation with them? I mean were there any differences or did you know which one is Arab or is Christian? 22:03 ZT: Most of them were Christian. 22:04 EI: I mean they have to be in any problem but- 22:06 ZT: No Christians even until now I think one of the best place for all ethnic to live is Kurdistan, because until now I have not heard any, sometimes you see like you know when we have four-five million or ten million people, when you have five families or ten family, one family is going to be bad, and one family is going to be good, if you have like five brothers, not all five brothers going to like have master degree on for example like become engineer, maybe one of them be engineer, maybe one of them be a doctor, maybe one of them be a teacher, so in family we have this. So imagine if you have like a four five million people, you going to have like one bad person, can I consider that as a whole nation is bad, so what happened right now as a Kurd to be honest with you we have like neighbors like Christians the Ramadhan time when we were fasting, they even do not eat, they were eating, a couple of times like my father told them like our neighbor, said why you guys do not respect to your month of Ramadhan, and we say wow loot at right now, they respecting not eating in front of the United States because of Ramadhan, so they were so noise we were like going to their home like knowing was there celebration like any celebration, was like a Muslim celebration, Christian whatever we go congratulate them, make them comfortable whatever is going to be, a birthday party or Eid or I mean Christmas, whatever was it Muslim people go check with their neighbor when was a different celebration for Muslims they were coming to the United States and saying happy or this or that. So what happened right now is joyful like you would not even sometimes like I told you a couple of my friends honestly I did not know exactly if they were Christian or Muslim because I am not saying because if you pray that is between you and you God, so you go to that room, but like when we were playing soccer or playing any games, nobody say oh! you are from this part of from this ethnic or from this religion, you have to go with… No, we all play, we all having fun because especially the kids what you have in your mind, having fun is the only thing you have. 24:26 EI: What about the teachers? Were they all Arabs? 24:28 ZT: Teachers, no most of them I think like to me probably majority of them were Kurd but they were speaking Arabic too because most of the classes, like they were talking like I talk to you right now I can say start like in Kurdish, but when you go to the subjects it had to be Arabic because history, geography you know math. 24:51 EI: You mean out of class you talk Kurdish. 24:54 ZT: Sometimes we like couple of my cousins and friends we spoke. 24:58 EI: What about teachers? 25:00 ZT: Teachers sometimes they speak Kurdish but like I told you if they go to subject was Arabic… 25:05 EI: Where they afraid or something? 25:08 ZT: See that is why I am saying right now, probably, and that is why they could not say anything. 25:13 EI: I mean what about in Education in history, did they ever about the Kurds in class I mean were there the name of the Kurd in the book or something? 25:23 ZT: No, Nothing. That is why we say right now the history sometimes like I told everybody do not listen to the history, because history for example I am going to right history I am going to talk about only Kurd, so they were doing history about Iraq, how they did this, they did that. 25:40 EI: The national history. 25:41 ZT: Pretty much yes. There was no a single name about the Kurds, how they lived, where they were, how many are there- 25:51 EI: You know that there are but in the book. 25:54 ZT: Yes because like I said when sometimes I go see my grandfather or like this, in front of the United States they are happy, you know they were smiling you know, I knew he like I am saying to myself right now I can say it right now inside probably they were burning because they would not speak up, they would not say something that never said it before but that time was what happened right now because if they say something and we were kids we could have probably go to see my friends I come to you and I say something to you and you went to say something to the other kids you know and from there they going to come in and my family will probably be in trouble, even because I said it I am saying I am ten years old, and imagine right now I am ten years old you are not supposed to be listening sometimes to ten years old what he saying or she saying. 26:48 EI: Okay so in 1988, (19)86 you were going to school, right? 26:53 ZT: Yes. 26:54 EI: Okay. So actually, it was the bad time for the Kurds as I know, yeah. 26:59 ZT: Yes. 26:59 EI: So, I mean there were political instability and how were you affected in school I mean were you aware of that? What about for example if there was a bombing or something, were you talking about it in school or you teacher? 27:15 ZT: No, because like I told you parents did not speak or did not mention anything in front of their kids, like I told you they were afraid to say, like I said to you right now I can say my father, my grandfather, my uncles probably they were burning that day, because they heard so many things and they could not speak up, even to you or to me, for example. What happened right now like I said to myself they have right because when you have this kind of government if a kid says something and you destroy the whole family, then they were right that time not to say anything, they did not speak or did not talk, why? Because what if I said something, because maybe I am a kid you know, I do not know there is going to be hurting me or making me go to bed, what if I told my friend oh! my father yesterday he was saying you know what Peshmerga or this or was in this mountain or they were doing this, and what the other kids say, oh! you know this guy was talking about this thing yesterday about his father. So from there, you may be put your family in danger. 28:27 EI: What about your teachers, I mean did they imposed the Saddam? 28:30 ZT: No. 28:30 EI: They did not talk. 28:31 ZT: No. Because like I said even if I was a teacher. 28:36 EI: I mean they did not say Saddam is great or something. 28:41 ZT: Oh! yes-yes. What happened right now. 28:43 EI: They do not have to criticize it but I mean for example. 28:46 ZT: My friend if you had no picture of Saddam Hussein in your house and they come in and they do not see a picture of Saddam Hussein in your house, I mean you do not like him, so my friend for example what do you mean I do not like him. Say for example I am living in this country I am living under the rule of law but if you do not have his picture in the wall in your home, and you do not know exactly when they going to be walking to your house and just having some excuses oh I am looking for this, but probably they heard something yes they want some excuses, they come in, oh! I do not see any pictures, why? Oh! now what type of excuse you going to have, because now you got to be really scared, because if you do not have a picture of him, so look at it right now, you are living in the country, do you have any president of the United States picture on your wall or on your phone? No. 29:39 EI: If you want. 29:40 ZT: If you wanted you can put it, if you do not want it you do not have to say I like this guy or I want this guy, so in Iraq was so bad like if you do not have a picture of him on the wall in your home, you have no right…So, this is your probably you can do whatever you want, guess what! No, still the government warns you. So, you have to follow, listen do whatever they want you to do. That is how bad it was. So imagine why the teachers going to be speaking because they know their life is in danger too, I am not saying most of teachers probably were so much hurting like burning inside, they wanted to speak, but the thing is right now they have like families, brothers, sisters you know they do not want to like I say why I am going to speak because if I said something, it is not like in this country like in the United States if you do something bad, if you are eighteen or above, they going to take you, you have to defend yourself like they are not going to take your father, your mother, your sister, oh this guy did something, we going to punish you. So, if say over there if you did something even if you ran away, they are not going to say, or we going to wait for that person we going to look for that person because he did something bad not his family, if you did something and you run away, your father, your mother, your sister, your brother probably your village is in trouble. That is why we were saying do not do it. And so many time people did it anyway. But because what happened right now when you fighting a government size of Saddam Hussein like they say you have so many undercovers and so many bodyguards you will not even believe it and right now sometimes if you see it they have doubled, his son has doubled, he has doubled and when you have these things you do not know exactly if you have the right person if they are the right Saddam Hussein or if they are number two Saddam Hussein. So, if you attack even if you say injure him, no he is injured but he is not the right injured because the right one is over their sitting. So, you going to come in and destroy, that is why what happened right now in some of the cities in Halabja like even in south right now like they got martyrs in the street nobody can speak, why? Because of oh- They did something, they were against the government. So this is what happened right now in northern Iraq right now they know is bad teachers knew this is not right but each person was trying to save him or her life from something happen to their life or their family’s life. 32:27 EI: Okay. So how many years did you get education in Duhok? 32:30 ZT: I finished elementary school. 32:33 EI: How long it took? 32:35 ZT: what happened right now the system was different, six years. Because we had six classes from one you had to go to all the way to, 1st grade, 2nd grade, 3rd grade you had to go sixth and you graduate you going to go to middle school, then the high school. 32:52 EI: So, you finished high school. 32:54 ZT: I finished high school, because I think it was the last year for my high school or middle school. 32:02 EI: You finished six years and then three years middle school. 33:07 ZT: No I was of my last year of middle school. 33:10 EI: Okay, how long it took to middle school? Three years? 33:13 ZT: Middle school took three years, but the thing is right now why we did not finish it because twice we had to run for our life. Like you know. 33:21 EI: Yeah, we will come to that. 33:23 ZT: So, what happened right now because when you go you miss that year, you have to come back, the system, is not like over here, if you go to class right now, and if you have classes if you fail one of them, they are not going to say okay you have to sit over here. 33:37 EI: But normally in three years you can finish it. 33:40 ZT: Yes. 33:41 EI: Okay I got it. Were there a national day for- 33:45 ZT: Iraq yes but for Kurds no. 33:47 EI: No, yeah, of course. During the national days like they had a break I think, it was a holiday, national holiday or something, so what did you do in that day like in school were there any program or celebration or something? 34:04 ZT: In school pretty much I do not think there was any program in school, the reason honestly we do not know exactly why because they had no money may be they were scared, may be they did not know exactly what kind of program they going to have, like because majority of them were Kurd and like I told you there was a number two under the Arabs in Iraq, that is why our leader are saying right now we do not want to be number two in our own country, so I am not saying we have to be number one and they have to be number two, no. there have to be equality. Like however you want to for yourself, you have to accept it for me too. The way you want it, I want it too. SO I have to respect you, you have to respect me. The way you want to be respected, if you do not respect me, I am not going to respect you. So this is what I am saying right now, so it was national holidays pretty much you say I do not know, it was nothing like any activities or anything like this. 34:58 JT: In Saddam’s birthday I remember we were going on a march we liked him, they said okay on his birthday we had to do something special for him. 35:05 EI: For his birthday? 35:06 JT: His birthday. 35:07 ZT: It was like a holiday because Saddam Hussein anything related to the government was a holiday. 35:12 EI: Not establishment of Iraq, or something but his birthday of Saddam. Okay. 35:18 ZT: Because when you do a demonstration, when you go right now, if you become against say your high school, your school like BU, there is something you have like fifty students and you going to have some posters you going to demonstrate over there this is your own choice and the other kids choice or people choice or your friends or whoever with you this is their choice nobody force them to do something, in Iraq everything was forced, school, if they have like a demonstration going on, every school in the city had to take their students and say we like this government we love this person, we love this president, we love this, we love everything. Like when I remember like in 1991 when there was a war. 36:08 EI: Were there any slogans from that demonstrations? 36:11 ZT: Se what happened right now we were kids, like I was in middle school or elementary school, honestly we even afraid if I for example I try to hide somewhere and run, I say what if somebody sees me in the demonstration and you know what, and none you knew them no way. 36:32 EI: But all demonstrations were to support Saddam? 36:36 ZT: To support Saddam yeah. 36:37 EI: Were there any demonstration against him? 36:39 ZT: No-no. I do not think even in a dram we had a demonstration against Saddam Hussein. Even sometimes like I said our people suffered so much like Kurdish people especially, the Kurdish people suffered so much not just from these things or that things, from everything, right now you saying I hope the government give each person a million dollar make their life so much easier because I know, I am not saying the government give everybody but for million, forty million, twenty million whatever is there, but I am saying right now this is our government is doing so many things right now for the people, because they suffered so much mentally, physically, emotionally, economically we cannot even speak about that, because there was no economic, because if you were a businessman you could not have certain level of your business, you could not be rich, you have this level, you could not cross that level with that step, why? Because if you become richer than them, that government going to be scared, say oh! I am sorry. You have to stop or they going to come in… because why? There was no capitalism, so what happened right now you have no right, you make your money for example, you going to go have your business and, but you know you are not safe, let us put it this way, you know you are not safe, that is why everything was under the, what they call, the bubble, so you have like this, you cannot cross that, you like, sometimes we say, you live in a jail, it is a little bit open but is bigger than a jail, but it is a jail. You have to do this, you have to say this. 38:20 EI: For now, you are talking? 38:22 ZT: No I am talking about Saddam Hussein’s time. For right now, look at right now, you can free market, you can do whatever want, you can go to any school you want, you can be who you want. It is open, what can of education you going to have. 38:32 JT: I want to mention one of your questions about you asked Kak Zeki, about you said you guys did anything daily at school; we had class usually, when the teacher was coming to class you had to stand up and say God bless Saddam Hussein, and many of us said my soul is free for his party. We always had to do this. 38:56 EI: The slogan was “My soul- 38:59 JT: “My soul is free for his party and he use it.” 39:03 EI: Do you remember it in Arabic? 39:05 JT: Yeah. 39:05 EI: Can you say it? 39:06 JT: When you stand up you say (Long Live Saddam Hussein) يعيش صدام حسين and when you sit you say … I do not know exactly because I forgot, when I was…… and the other thing every book they give it to government they had the front of the first page of the book it was Saddam’s picture. 39:31 EI: Okay. 39:31 JT: Yeah, I mean when you start the history, you have to start about who is Saddam and after that you go to all the detail of Arab, where the Arab came from. When you start the Geography you have to start with Iraq and neighboring Kurdistan and go down to all Arab countries. 39:45 EI: Was there any name of Kurdistan? 39:48 JT: No, at all. They called it north of Iraq, they called it shimal. 39:51 EI: Shimal? 39:52 JT: It is an Arabic word, shimal is an Arabic word. 39:56 EI: Does it mean north? 40:00 JT: It means north, I mean any word about Kurdish history. 40:04 EI: Okay. So, you during the 198s, 1988, 1989 and 1990 you were in Duhok right? 40:15 ZT: Yes. 40:15 EI: It was the worst time I think because of the Halabja. 40:21 ZT: What happened in 1988- 40:23 EI: Do you remember anything about that? 40:25 ZT: Because what happened like I said we just, what happened right now in (19)88 was the worst time because for the Kurdish people in general, because now they know they destroy a Kurd in general not because of their religion, not because of their different mentality, is because they are Kurd, that is why they were doing this, they were doing every aspect of things to make sure not for these people not to become successful, the Kurds, as a Kurd. So what happened right now I remember I think it was in 87 when my grandmother and her kids like my aunts and these they were living, because my uncles, couple of them they were living in I am not saying like they were living with the Peshmerga, they were living outside of the cities like it is not of the control of Saddam Hussein, they were living in a village and they do not like this system and my uncle was a Peshmerga and these things so what happened right now they came in and they took my other uncle said your brother is with Peshmerga they put him in jail and my grandmother any her kids, my aunts, they took them to outside the city, they drop them of like some places outside and said go from here. 41:53 EI: Okay. 41:53 ZT: And because my grandmother was living in that area, she knew and they had to walk I do not know how many miles because to be honest we do not know but it is probably an hour, and a half to walk from there to get the destination just to be a little bit free and not to be scared, so my uncle was in jail for like a year and plus because of one thing, he had not done anything, he was ins school, he was the top student in his school until now we say if he was not become like that, like Saddam Hussein did not take him, probably he would like become a doctor or an engineer, he was the best student, my father still saying right now, says we went to school one day to check on him you know how he is doing, the teacher said why you guys are here? Did we ask you guys to come here? We do not need you guys be here for him. That is how good he was, like he was the top of his class in school. But because what happened right now they put him in jail for one year and he had nothing to do with his brother over there. That is why I am saying the government was so bad, so what happened right now my father, I visited him a couple of times in jail- 42:59 EI: Your uncle? 43:00 ZT: My uncle- 43:01 EI: You visited him? 43:02 ZT: Yes. I visited him a couple of time in jail I mean guess what, the guard was so strong. 43:08 EI: Where was the jail, Baghdad? 43:10 ZT: No, it was outside Duhok probably 20 minutes from Duhok was called Simel. Soo, it was one of… what happened right now because he had not done anything wrong or he had not anything to harm the government, so they put him in a jail, one jail they say we not going to mention or not going to put him in jail for his life, they did not put any sentence on him and they said we going to put in jail. 43:43 EI: Was there any court, like they just put, take and put to jail, like there was no judgement or something or even- 43:55 ZT: No, there is no judge, even with the judge, the judge for example what a judge is going to do. He is guilty, permanent jail for his life. 43:55 EI: Okay. 43:55 ZT: So, there was nothing, so my uncle what happened right now. 43:57 EI: I mean there was no defense, right? 44:01 ZT: No, there was nothing, and even right now you know it you have not done do for example what happened right now they told my grandfather if you bring your other son back, they going to let him be free, so he has to stay in jail, and everybody told my grandfather go bring, and you know he was his father, my uncle, his father like in the village in Peshmerga, so they said go bring your other son home that way this son can be free, my grandfather said, are you guys crazy, if I go bring my other son back. 45:10 EI: Peshmerga guy… Okay. 45:11 ZT: And I guarantee you guys he will be next to him or they both going to be die. 45:12 EI: Okay. 45:12 ZT: So, I can lose one of my sons, I do not want to lose both of them. So, this is how my grandfather knew it. And he was not educated like have a master degree in politics but he saw and he was one of the smartest probably in our village, like we had a village probably three –four –five thousand people, they call it… He was really smart, and knowledgeable person and a lot of people went to say why did not you go and bring son just bring him, they want you to bring your son home, so they can let this guy go. Go be free. And my grandfather said, what you guys thinking, you really think I am going to bring my son and they going to let both of the go, I guarantee you if I bring him back they going to put him with him, both going to be die, and until a year and plus and one old lady Saddam Hussein came to Duhok and one old lady dancing in front of Saddam Hussein and she had something to tell him and she said you know what my son I do not know if he is still alive or not but my son is like age of that, like in prison, so with your power and your willing and your …. Mentioning all these beautiful names to Saddam Hussein, if you let my son go, I will be happy. And they said people over there this is Saddam Hussein’s word saying “If your son is alive, he will be free but if he is dead like they killed him, sorry for your loss” This is how is- 46:16 EI: Who was that woman? 46:18 ZT: I do not know she was an old lady that time living in Duhok and she was… you know- 46:25 EI: Kurd? 46:25 ZT: Kurd yeah, all Kurdish. 46:27 EI: Always came to visit Duhok? 46:29 ZT: What happened, Saddam Hussein sometimes came to cities just to go and cross that and go some places, have fun you know on vacation and she when he came in, sometimes you know he would stop in some places for five or ten minutes and that time she was doing that- 46:44 EI: She got a chance- 46:45 ZT: She got a chance you know and she said this is my son’s situation, so you let my son be free. And Saddam Hussein, the people was all there they were saying this was Saddam Hussein’s word: If he is still alive, he will be free, if the guard had killed him, sorry for your loss. So I do not know what happened if the son was free or he had got killed but among those people they say if there is nothing under your name like if you have not harmed the government, if you did not do, if you did not say anything about the government or the president or anything to do with the government we going to let them be freed, all these people in jail. So my uncle was one of them, and I think like kind of a week or so my father said do not stay in the city any more, go next to your brother, go see your brother, go and live with them. 47:44 EI: Okay, so you mentioned about displacement, like Saddam changed demography or something, did you affected with it, did your family affected by the demographic change, did you run away from the country or from bombing. 47:58 ZT: As my family, my father because what happened right now because my father was in the construction company, and construction is not like I mean, your work with like civilian company, you are working the government. So that time because my grandfathers both for them as a father’s side and mother’s side they were both close to the Peshmerga in the villages aside of the Duhok probably taking about an hour something like that driving, so they were under control of the pretty much Peshmerga was on control of the Saddam Hussein, you could come to the Duhok, but you would be scared like my uncle I think he got sick one day, I do not know he had to have a surgery I do not know was like liver or something like, I honestly do not even remember it was his father, it is like an hour from, if he come to Duhok it is like an hour, they took him to Iran because he was scared to come to Duhok, and if they find out where he live, why he is- 49:05 EI: As I understand like in that time Iran had good relations with Kurds, right? Because Iran was in conflict with Iraq- 49:13 ZT: Yes, what happened right now, the politician is all business, so the Kurd they just want somebody to be- 49:21 EI: You said when the Kurds wanted to leave the country they firstly went to Iran, and then to Europe or the United States- 49:21 ZT: What happened right now is that Turk, the Turkish border was harder because what happened right now the government controlled better like the Iraqi government because you had few spots and if you want to cross that mountain and this thing is not going to be safer because of a lot of animals, a lot of danger like wild animals going on, so Iran what happened because of the war, they did not like each other a lot and Saddam Hussein and the border was little bit longer than the Turkish borders so it was a little bit easier for people to cross the Iranian border than Turkish, because Turkey they had a couple of gates, pretty much were controlled by Saddam Hussein’s government, so how you going to say I am going to be running away from this country. So, this way was a little easier otherwise Turkey was easier to cross to go to Europe because Iran you had to go over there, they did not know exactly how- 50:28 EI: Do remember the Turkish state treatment to the Iraqi Kurds in that time like was it, will they provide you a way to run away from your country- 50:38 ZT: Any government they do not want to put themselves in other government’s business, so like I said if I am president of these country and you president of that country you going to say you know what we have to respect each other as a separate, so even Turkey knew right now how Iraq is that but because of the other countries not saying anything, the strongest countries, so right now Iran and Turk help us a lot, they open sometimes border for us to cross and to go over there, it was a good thing to be honest with you because imagine if they did not open their- 51:13 EI: Now you are talking about? 51:15 ZT: No, I am talking about Saddam Hussein’s time like in 1991 when we, there was upraising happened like million, that is became huge news in the whole world, when the upraising happened- 51:27 EI: Do you remember when the upraising happened it was 1991? 51:29 ZT: Yes, I remember honestly, we walked I do not know I think for ten, thirteen days we walked like what happened right now. 51:39 JT: I want to mention this, Iran was more open with Kurdish people who live in, they are more open to the Kurds because they had a war with Saddam, it was easier to go Iran more than go to Turkey. Turkey that time it was I am not saying very relationship with Iraq, but they had a relationship with business because they never, I am not saying never, but they did not accept Kurdish refugee. 52:17 EI: And in that time Turkey like 1990s was the worst time for Turkey as well because like they were fighting against PKK… They had problem with their Kurds as well so. 52:26 JT: Iran was more open because if you looking at the fighter, each fighter, I mean the fighter has a party you know, the party and headquarters for all Kurdish parties were in Iran, none was in Turkey. If anybody or anyone wants go to have a medical problem they go to Iran. My father one of them, he was a fighter and he had a little bit small or problem for surgery, he could not drive one hour to go to the city of Duhok, he walk around or he had a horse probably arrive in ten days to Iran. 53:06 EI: Okay. You said you walked for twelve days, it was like you were running away from country or? 53:14 ZT: Yes, because what happened the city we run- 53:17 EI: You left Duhok? 53:18 ZT: Duhok. 53:19 EI: Why? 53:19 ZT: There was a car, because what happened right now in 1991 the war happened between Saddam Hussein and Kuwait and the united Nations, the thirty countries and the United States among them they said we have to do something you know, the government controlled a different country because Kuwait was a different country even they said. 53:40 EI: Yes, Saddam attacked the country in international power they tried to stop Saddam, so what the situation of the Kurds in that time? 53:48 ZT: The Kurds because what happened right now- 53:50 JT: The upraising, after upraising, Saddam coming back- 53:54 EI: Saddam attacked Kuwait and Kurds uprised, Kurdish uprising happened or- 54:00 ZT: No, when the United Nations included all thirty countries gave Saddam Hussein a deadline, you have to get your troops out of Kuwait or you have to face the consequences, so Saddam Hussein said this my nineteenth city I am not going to leave Kuwait, Kuwait is an Iraqi city, and long story short when the war happened, because Saddam Hussein was fighting with this side so the Kurdish people fighting the other side, so the Kurdish people, the Iraqi government was not strong, the Kurdish military with the people, not only Peshmerga because people stood and upraised that- 54:49 EI: I mean the upraising became it was spread to ground like people participated. 55:02 ZT: Yes, Peshmerga coming with them, what happened right now. 55:06 EI: But they were led by the Peshmerga, they were directed or- 55:09 ZT: Peshmerga knew it, like in, I do not know if you watched it president Barzani in 88 in I think was meeting with Peshmerga in one mountain and he said the government of Iraq is getting weaker, so it has to change some of his tone, whether is going to agree with Kurds to make you know the Peshmerga or it has to do something because economically it is getting weak, physically, emotionally like every aspect is getting weak, because when they went to war when he did the chemical in Halabja, the leader knew it and a lot of people said how did he knew, and in 88 if you look it right now in Khwakurg, he is talking to the Peshmerga saying bear with us, be patient you know things are going to change soon. This is what happened in 91. So 91 what happened Saddam Hussein went to Kuwait and the countries were fighting, so the Kurdish people in another side fight and the military did not fight, some of them fought because they knew the Kurdish people upraise and there is going to be a crazy, there is going to be a war if they going to fight, but the Kurdish people even that time; if you give up your weapon and you become like give it up, Kurdish people did not even kill anybody, and that is why we say right now that Kurdish people is one of the probably nation you could not imagine what kind of nation it was because you saw from your own eyes or heard these people are they kill your brother, your sister, your uncle. 56:55 EI: So, you are telling about the Peshmerga that they did not kill the Saddam army. 57:01 ZT: No, yeah because with the army was like in the city of Duhok and Erbil and Sulaimaniya they had basis. 57:10 EI: Okay when Peshmerga started to control back so they did not attack them. 57:15 ZT: No, if you give it up, if you fight we going to fight, because you are in our territory, so a lot of them, I am talking majority of them they knew because they were there for example you did not want to be there, just you, because you have to be there just because of the force, like you know they have to say if you do not go we going to kill him, so when they knew these things happening most of them they gave it up, like they put their weapon raised their hands said “Okay.” 57:46 EI: The Iraqi soldiers? 57:49 ZT: The Iraqi soldiers, and the Kurdish military, the Kurdish government, I am talking about the Peshmerga, if you do not fight most of them really nice way you know they put them somewhere and after probably a while they took them to outside of Duhok you know like it was called Faidhiya, probably like fifteen or twenty minutes away outside of Duhok and they let them go. And some of them said we do not want to go back, some of them said no we want to live over here, if you go back probably you going to get killed. So, what happened right now, with that happened the Kurdish people controlled even Kirkuk, they controlled and I do not know what happened because like I told you politician, things changed so Saddam Hussein was getting weak and, in this side, fighting with Kurds and this side pretty much. 58:43 EI: Shiite uprised against at the same time, and what happened right now, I do not know something happened, and I do not know they were scared of Iran or they were scared of any other countries to interfere with Iraq and they said that to be stopped right here, like American militaries and Saddam Hussein okay, they going to stop right here, and then you lift your helicopters so when they did that, the worst thing happened what they call in south, they were killing so many people because the Kurds have mountains and can go to the mountain, the killing is not going to be as bad as like if you are living in desert, you know it is open, so you can do whatever, so what happened right now when they stopped that Saddam Hussein had some power and he brought his troops close to Duhok and these places and they have good troops, still have thousands of thousand troops, the Kurdish people did not have weapon to defend themselves against the tanks and the plane, so what happened right now they said Saddam Hussein is going to come in and control the rest of the cities of Iraq like Duhok, Erbil Sulaimaniya and Kirkuk. So people got scared for their life, even the Peshmerga said do not run we going to be fighting until the last minute, but you going to say you know what we only have AK47, they have plane, they have this, they have that, so the fear is going to get you worse than anything else, so you going to say no I am going to run, so what happened. 1:00:28 EI: So, the migration started then. 1:00:32 ZT: Yes, so the people ran. 1:00:33 EI: Okay, now just to summarize in 1991, when Saddam attacked Kuwait, Kurds uprised, there are Kurdish uprising and then Kurds started to get control of the cities that they are majority in like Duhok, Erbil, Sulaimaniya and Kirkuk, and then Saddam came back after the war, after the gulf war and he said he will again invade Kurdish cities, in that time the Kurds started to migrate to the borders. 1:01:05 ZT: Half of them went to Iran, because wherever they close to- 1:01:10 EI: So, what do you remember about that migration, and- 1:01:13 ZT: Men was in one hand was really good cause it was everybody. We know a lot of knew this is going to be huge for the Kurds because why is going to be, it cannot be going under the media again, is going to be the uprising in the media too because all the media is going to be there because millions of people, it is going to be crossing the borders so they were hopefully want they going to be Kurdish voice going to be going up again. We do not need the mountain our friends, so when we wanted other country to become our friend and to help us, so this is what happened, when those people uprised, went to Turkey, went to Iran, and the United States, France and all the other countries came and helped, you know Turkey, they opened those camps you know like they opened those. 1:02:06 JT: How were the camps, did you have a bathroom, did you have anything? No. there was nothing, talking about your life in the camp. 1:02:13 ZT: What happened right now the life in the camps was not good, like- 1:02:15 EI: You were in Iran- 1:02:16 ZT: Turkey- 1:02:17 JT: If you see, right now Turkey has refugees, they accept the Syrian refugees, you see the camps there, tents and was it the same for you? 1:02:30 ZT: No, what happened right now because like I said our situation was different because that time the Kurdish voice was under the bubbles, like I told you under the one’s roof- 1:02:44 EI: I mean you want to say there was a huge suffering and that sufferings will attracts attention, you were expecting to attract attention. 1:02:52 ZT: Yes because what happened right now, you know few do a good thing, you know if you do a good job and you stand up and you do for days, months, years, one day hopefully for this position you going to get to that position, you know because if you are a good employee and you do right things and you are helping everybody, and you become a really a good group leader or supervisor, one day you know you going to be going upper. So same thing with these things. We knew it is life is not going to easy, and you are running from home, you come in to some mountain live in. 1:03:29 EI: So, when Saddam came back to get control again in Duhok or other cities, where there any attack of him, like did they attack civilians? 1:03:38 ZT: Peshmerga fought- 1:03:40 EI: Was there any conflict on street or? 1:03:45 ZT: Because we ran honestly, we moved I do not know exactly if anything happened any war, but Saddam Hussein was throwing like tanks were believe me were, couple of my friend like in the city where living they heard so many noises, there were bombings, they were doing a lot of stuff. Like because what happened right now if you have AK47 you cannot fight a tank, if a tank see you over there, it is stronger than you, so that is why people running for their life, they knew if anybody get caught is going to die because couple months ago you uprised against me, so now we going to be in control, what I am going to do to you. Do you think I am going to give you guys a cake? This is something going to be, we going to be facing the consequences, we going to kill you. 1:04:33 EI: As I understand people were told that punishment would be bigger because of uprising. 1:04:37 ZT: Because what happened right now when you, if me and you agree in a business and tomorrow you say you know what I am going to go separate way, and you go your separate way and you lost all your money, whatever reason was, and you come in next day say you know what Zeki I am sorry I want to be your partner again, I am going to say okay let us put the money; I do not have it. How I am going to be your partner? So same thing we were saying because we were scared we were Iraq, now we uprised against Saddam Hussein’s government and we become our own independence, safe, part of Iraq and now if they, we know if Saddam Hussein came in and control these things and you get caught, you going to be facing one of the probably worst things in your life whatever is going to be. Killing or prison. 1:05:28 EI: So, you were like how many days did it take to going to Turkish border? 1:05:34 ZT: I think we because whatever different people got there different days, because some people they knew some shortcuts, I think it took us like ten to thirteen, twelve days walk whatever right now. 1:05:49 EI: All family or? 1:05:50 ZT: Most of the family yes because we were- 1:05:54 EI: I mean with family I mean the children, women, girl the elderly? 1:06:00 ZT: Like you see some of the stuff honestly if you have pictures if you record that, you could not even believe it right now. And I know sometimes I say maybe have a dream. I saw those things, like I saw some old ladies or old men they left them behind, like for example your grandfather, father got old and you had to put him on your shoulder, everybody was trying to get to the point faster that they can because they do not exactly somebody behind them they going to get captured. If you get captured, get caught, you going to get killed. So I am not saying right or wrong, you saw so many kids dying, I think it was in they call it Jalee like in border in Turkey when we were staying in our camp I think they opened one graveyard became like thousands of thousands of people dying because of the cold, water, no food. Like I think was a holiday was like a Eid they did not have a bread in our home. So, my father and my uncle they got so mad and these things and they said we going to cross the borders because the government of Turkey they did not let us to go to the cities and because- 1:07:15 EI: They did not allow you to go out? 1:07:13 ZT: Yeah, they did not allow it because imagine if thousands of thousands of refugees, so they going to let me go, they going to let him go, they going to let you go. It is got to be something, they did not want anything happen. 1:07:24 EI: How was the condition? 1:07:26 ZT: The condition was not that good. 1:07:27 EI: The physical condition? 1:07:28 ZT: It was not that good, until the United States came in and they changed some of the- 1:07:35 JT: Sorry Zeki, but the United States did not have anybody’s name to give food; they sent it by aero plane. I mean it was not camp that they somebody respect you- 1:07:45 EI: I mean it was not organized or when you came from Iraq like you left your homeland you came with nothing right? 1:07:56 ZT: Nothing. 1:07:56 EI: So, there was not a place for you to sleep or to get shower or something? 1:08:02 ZT: No. 1:08:02 EI: It was not organized you mean, that right? 1:08:05 ZT: No, it was not organized no. 1:08:07 EI: Just the mountains or? 1:08:08 ZT: Like I am telling you like probably we were like in a hill, probably like a mountain, a hill and it was like because people were everywhere, like I told you a million of people going, crossing the border and after that you know they got, some people got tents, some people they got this, by the plane throwing like- 1:08:31 EI: They threw it from the planes? 1:08:35 ZT: the plane, those big planes food, especially was called dry foods, because you heat it or you can open the back and eat it. Because they did not have this kind of food like rise, chicken oil these things you can cook it, because you have no place, you have nothing, but after a couple of weeks gone you know, they got like some put some tents, brought some doctors, you know they were checking, and what happened right now because you walked so much, the cold so strong, and there was nothing for you to protect and you did not have many clothes to put on, blankets, so this is why so many kids died. 1:09:32 EI: Okay. So after that, you went back to the city. 1:09:35 ZT: Yes. I think it was- 1:09:37 EI: How long did it take the camp life? 1:09:40 ZT: It took a couple of months. What happened right now. 1:09:45 EI: And when you came back to Duhok, to your own home? 1:09:49 ZT: Yes. 1:09:49 EI: Did you lose any one in your family during that process? 1:09:55 ZT: Probably children, maybe I do not know because some of them went to Iran, some of them… but as adult like we say thank God everybody was okay, like nobody got injured, I know like some minor things going over here and there but like big things not happened. This will be thanking god because things happen for a reason, so we thanking God nothing happened. 1:10:20 EI: So. you back to Duhok again, your home and it was 1991 or (19)92? 1:10:27 ZT: It was almost like 1991 like we stayed a couple of months in there so we came back. 1:10:33 EI: Who was the governor of Duhok at that time? 1:10:38 ZT: At that time when we came back the Kurdish people was controlling but the thing is right now even worse, what happened the sanction was on Iraq, there was no food, Iraq could not sell oil, they put a sanction on Iraq, so right now with a Kurd become independent, I am not saying independent, like a separate. 1:11:00 EI: Autonomous. 1:11:00 ZT: Autonomous, like independent from Iraq, the Iraqi government put sanction on the Kurds, so now. 1:11:07 EI: So, the control of Duhok was like the Kurds control in that time? 1:11:12 ZT: Yes, but the thing is right now like people was so suffering, what happened right now the Kurdish government had no resources, where they going to bring the resources, where they going to bring food, you have to bring it from Iran, Turkey, Iraq because everybody closed their doors, their borders because still was sanction on Iraq itself. 1:11:35 EI: Was there any institutional government there, Iraqi government there? Saddam or? 1:11:41 ZT: No, Saddam. 1:11:42 EI: They just left? 1:11:43 ZT: What happened right now they, right now we saying we make Iraq united because what happened right now Saddam Hussein lost his control so he moved all his stuff. 1:11:56 EI: State institutions, the people- 1:12:00 ZT: Everything from northern Iraq. 1:12:02 EI: And left you there whatever you do. 1:12:04 ZT: Kurdish people and our own government and this way was so hard because the Kurdish had no resources, they had no money who is going to give you food, even if you have this, how you going to bring it because they have sanction on Iraq. 1:12:18 EI: How you survived that time? 1:12:20 ZT: It was not easy, let us put it this way. Like a pound and a half of sugar like was thirty-forty dinars that time and we could not even buy a kilo we had no job and Iraqi government pretty much put sanction on the Kurds you know with everything until was in 1995, 96 before we come in there was like some oil for food and then situation got a little better but what happened right now we left. 1:13:03 EI: And then 1992 and 1993 when did you, did you continue school there? 1:13:13 ZT: Yeah we went back, after that because we lost a year and something, we went back the thing is because the situation is not the same, now we do not like to go back to school, you lost almost a year and a half of your life, you going to back to the same class you have been before and couple of my cousin they quit school because of going to work so now things got different because what happened right now everybody happy because they do not have much money, food in the house, so this was the situation a little complicated. 1:13:49 EI: Yeah, you were not under the control of government, Iraqi government or Saddam but you were suffering economically and physical condition was bad, okay. So in school the education was there teacher or Kurdish education or something? 1:14:07 ZT: Yes, right now our government the teachers the principals under those circumstances, after those pressures the teachers never stopped their education. 1:14:20 EI: So, education started to be in Kurdish or? 1:14:22 ZT: No, we still had some classes like some we still have because our government had print you know Kurdish books and these things was not easy, because we did not have any what they call it. 1:14:38 EI: It was a transition process. 1:14:39 ZT: So, what happened right now, now we can be free more, we can talk, we can do stuff better than before but you still have some one or two classes in Kurdish, but majority of them was like Arabic classes. But now the teachers you can speak with you in Kurdish, you did not have to be afraid or you did not have to be afraid to speak. 1:15:01 EI: Okay, yeah so in street or in school it was easier. Okay And then you came to the United States in 1997? 1:15:10 ZT: Yeah left at the end of (19)96, we left I think. 1:15:14 EI: The whole family or? 1:15:15 ZT: Yeah, my mum, my dad and brothers and sisters. 1:15:18 EI: Okay, as a refugee? 1:15:19 ZT: Yes, as asylum. What happened right now because the United States government as those, what happened right now because when Kurdish government took control and I think it was in 95, honestly I do not exactly remember but they put no-fly zone around the Kurdish area, wherever the Kurdish control, they put no-fly zone. So that Saddam Hussein cannot bring any planes and after that a lot of organizations came in some working for government, some working for NGOs, so they came in, they helped, they brought like some medicine, food and these things. So, people was- 1:16:19 EI: From Europe or? 1:16:20 ZT: Yes from Europe and all over, so what happened right now some people they were working with them like become their drivers, because if you come in from the United States to Kurdistan you do not know exactly which city, which villages are, who is what, what they need, what were their needs, some become translators, so then, in the end I am not going to make it long, so Saddam Hussein said whoever worked for the United States or work with them not just, because you not going to be a CIA, by the time you become CIA need a lot of background check, but you were working with them become a translator, drivers. But He said whoever did anything work with the United States is not safe. So what happened right now and because the United States they did not have troops over there, they did not have like a base over there, so they got scared because what happened I think was in Vietnam when the United States was helping them some of them people, the local people was helping them so when they left the other government they controlled and killed all those people, so the United States said they not going to make the same mistake we made in Vietnam couple years ago, twenty years ago, forty years ago. So, they said whoever want write your name we going to take you and your kids any place you guys you want. So, this is how- 1:17:49 EI: The United States gave the opportunity and- 1:17:51 ZT: Yes, because what happened right now a lot of ah it is only you know it is tough, nothing is going to happen for so long they wrote down their names, they gave it to any agency you work for- 1:18:03 EI: They did not expect like this. 1:18:05 ZT: Like honestly, me personally and a lot of people, they do not have in their dream one day they going to come to the United States, because we said what, this is what I am saying right now, so far right now that is why we are saying thanks to the United States because they did something not so many countries did it. 1:18:23 EI: And you came here after that? 1:18:24 ZT: No, we went, because they took us at the end of (19)96, I think it was November or October, they took us to Guam. 1:18:31 EI: Where? 1:18:31 ZT: Guam is an island next to Hawaii. 1:18:33 EI: Ah, Okay. 1:18:34 ZT: It is like seven hours from Hawaii, so we went to Guam, the did our physic stuff, you know like they make us I think with a couple of months we stay over there because they- 1:18:44 EI: As camps? 1:18:45 ZT: It was really nice place; let us put it this way, nice. We were living like in house of the navy’s. The island was navy’s house living. Nice houses like they had AC, the best I am telling you, they give good food. 1:19:01 EI: You said you could not imagine it. 1:19:05 ZT: Now if you go there, I guarantee you, you going to spend a thousand of thousand they just have some fun like we had, I am not saying… because whatever they were doing, they were doing the paper for us, doing physical stuff, you know testing, make sure everything is good, you know all the paper… the health, the issue. 1:19:20 EI: Did you get any education for language there? 1:19:22 ZT: They had some classes you know you go over there, they teach you basic stuff, you know, they brought some Kurdish people they knew English in San Francisco a couple of them become working with the United States, they were teaching us how to live our lives what to do, what not to do, what to say, what not to say over here, they were basically basic stuff they were teaching you. 1:19:47 EI: How long, for six months? 1:19:49 ZT: No, I think it was like few months like three, four, five months, yes probably. 1:19:53 EI: Just for integration process. 1:19:56 ZT: Because what happened right now we came to this country as soon as we landed we went to social service, and we went to social security everything was like set, like social security they sent our social security, green card after a year something like that we got our green card, and then everything. 1:20:16 EI: You had the refugee’s status. 1L20:18 ZT: Yes, yeah. 1:20:20 EI: So, and then Binghamton? 1:20:22 ZT: No, we went to Maryland. 1:20:24 EI: Maryland? 1:20:25 ZT: Yeah like close to Washington D.C., because in Guam they give you choices, if you have a relative, a family live anywhere in the United States, if you had contact with them you know, if you know, if he is going to will to help, we going to take you over there but before because my cousin lived in New Jersey because my father when he came lost his number he said we do not want to bother anybody right now, so just go over there and see what happens, so this is why, if you do not give them any choice like say I want to go over there, they will take you some places they know is going to be good for you. 1:21:04 EI: Okay, so you went to Maryland? 1:21:06 ZT: So, a lot of people went to Tennessee, Nashville, some went to California; some went to I think the majority went to Virginia. So, we went to Maryland. 1:21:19 EI: So, what had changed in your life after that? 1:21:22 ZT: a lot of stuff to be honest with you, we saw so many things like you know, you are human right now before when you were living under Saddam Hussein you thought you know we were like somebody just nothing, just here to live to worship like these government, now we know your life is more important than anything else, and over here they treat you really you can be who you are, they give you a big choice like you want to be doing this, you can do this, you can do this, you want to be a businessman, you going to be an educated person, so they give you opportunities. 1:21:59 EI: So, you got your education in college? Which college? 1:22:03 ZT: Yes. Broome Community College. 1:22:05 EI: And you came to Binghamton? 1:22:07 ZT: No, over there because what happened right now I stayed over there for like only a year because we went to high school but because we tried to go to college they told us college is very expensive, we have a couple, my father knows a couple of people over here and said they got contact you know, they say college over here if you become resident tuition you know plus financial aids and these things is going to be cheaper. 1:22:31 EI: Government helped you financially right in that time? 1:22:34 ZT: Over there? 1:22:35 EI: No, here. 1:22:36 ZT: Over here yes. 1:22:38 EI: You cannot find a job like for the first time when you came. So, they- 1:22:43 ZT: Financially they helped us. No, you cannot say enough about this country you know, I am not saying everything is, like I told you nothing is perfect, like I want to be a millionaire for example, but like you cannot say- 1:22:55 EI: But you could survive. 1:22:57 ZT: You cannot say anything enough about this country, they do everything to make you to become somebody who you are not, like to stand up on your feet and open your eyes, like here is the whole world in front of you, what you want to be. That is what I am saying, no, they give you enough, they give you good tools they give you good education, and it is up to you right now who you want to be. 1:23:23 EI: Great, and then you came to Broome community college; you got your degree there? What was your degree? 1:23:29 ZT: In Marketing Management Sale. 1:23:31 EI: Marketing Management? 1:23:32 ZT: Yeah. 1:23:33 EI: Okay, good. 1:23:34 ZT: I studied two years computer and after that because what happened right now I told them I said I want to do another thing and my advisor told me if you want to take this pretty much same classes some of this classes is some of these classes, so you do not have to take as many as credit you need because now math, they needed for C++, they needed for these class, you not take math for business, 1:24:04 EI: Okay, now what is your job, what is your occupation? 1:24:08 ZT: Right now? 1:24:09 EI: Yeah. 1:24:10 ZT: Group leader, working EAT. 1:24:12 EI: What is EAT? 1:24:13 ZT: EAT is Endicott Interconnect Technology, it is like what they call it IBM before it used to be IBM, now is EAT, 1:24:21 EI: So, it is an American company, right? 1:24:24 ZT: Yes. 1:24:24 EI: You are working there? 1:24:25 ZT: Yes. 1:24:25 EI: And how is the job conditions? You are happy with it? 1:24:30 ZT: Like the way you see me, I go to work like this, sometimes, some of my friends what the hell you are doing over here, you became like a CEO… What happened, our job is not dirty, like dirty I mean like dirt or making this thing or is not happy. 1:24:45 EI: You are not working in a construction or building- 1:24:48 ZT: No. 1:24:48 EI: It is like a company. 1:24:50 ZT: It is not like you have to wear some nice jeans, you know some nice T-Shirt so that you have to love some… No, it is not that heavy, and honestly it is easy and I am not saying easy like anybody but you have to get some training but it is good. 1:25:04 EI: So, you are happy with your education and with your family. 1:25:07 ZT: Yes. 1:25:07 EI: You are living here with your three children- 1:25:12 ZT: Alhamdullila… Yes. 1:25:14 EI: Masha Allah, and your wife is she Kurdish? 1:25:17 ZT: Yes. 1:25:17 EI: She is Kurdish, she was living here? 1:25:22 ZT: No, she was back home she is his sister. She was back home. 1:25:28 EI: Your sister right. 1:25:30 ZT: What happened right now when I went over there. 1:25:33 EI: So, you are relatives? 1:25:34 ZT: Yes, he is my cousin, that is why I say when his father was over there, my other uncle was with us. 1:25:40 EI: Did you have any relatives in Kurdistan right now? 1:25:44 ZT: Lots of them. 1:25:45 EI: Lots. [laughs] 1:25:46 ZT: Everybody is over there, that what we saying right now. 1:25:49 EI: Are you going by accident or visit them? 1:25:51 ZT: I was there like in 2005, I hope soon, that is what was asking, Desko made something happen, they send this people so I can go with them. 1:26:00 EI: When was the last time when for your visit? 1:26:03 ZT: 2005. 1:26:04 EI: 2005, so it is great, I want you to compare when you left the country and how you found the country- 1:26:11 ZT: No man it was different, I am not saying. 1:26:14 EI: What was the, like as a citizen not as an… you do not have to be in any identity… for like ordinary people what changed there? 1:26:25 ZT: The thing… life, because now they… what happened people worry about one thing, their business, before you know everybody was unemployed, sitting you know, come sit next to you for like three hours, you go see him for six hours, when I went over there everybody was busy doing something. 1:26:43 EI: Were you surprised when? 1:26:45 ZT: Honestly, I was shocked, how fast things can be changed? You know from people and the web con you know holding AK47 on their shoulder and become technology, computer you know phone I am not saying because our country they do not deserve it, but because we did not have these things. So now everything become available to the Kurdish, look at it right now and I think I heard this that the United States and Europe saying the first nation we see them from a gun to technology change that fast is the Kurdish people, so imagine when I was over there everybody I am telling you, young people had guns holding. 1:27:28 EI: In 1997? 1:27:29 ZT: In (19)95 and (19)96 yes, they had AK47 on their shoulders, even if you are not in military, because gun was everywhere, when I went over there, they could not even sell, you have to have a license, if you not with military they if see you they going to say okay. 1:27:46 EI: So, everything is organized. 1:27:48 ZT: What happened right now they changed so much. 1:27:49 EI: So how about treatment? 1:27:51 ZT: Treatment was better. 1:27:53 EI: When you back there you firstly went to Istanbul or something? 1:27:58 ZT: No, the first I went to Syria. 1:28:00 JT: He is talking about 2000. You are talking about 2005. 1:28:02 ZT: Oh! 2005, yeah, I went to Istanbul. 1:28:06 EI: First you went in 2000 and then in 2005. 1:28:11 ZT: Yes. 1:28:12 EI: Okay. So, there was significant change between 2000 and 2005 as well? 1:28:18 ZT: Because what happened right now like 2000 few people had good job and they were living, still were happy. 1:28:27 EI: Actually, the Kurdistan Region it was officially accepted in 2003, right? 1:28:33 ZT: Yes. So what happened right now still people had jobs and life was better because have more freedom, they can stand up and do something without any other countries because there was still sanctions on Iraqi government and still on Kurdistan and 2000 was like that, and 2005 I went to Istanbul me and my friend, we went to Istanbul, we landed it was really good because we were like when hour in the JFK, for our plane to take off so we went to Istanbul was amazing, I am telling you the country was good the food was good, so we said we do not have that much time so we cannot go outside of the airport, so we had to go from Istanbul airport is like a local go to Diyarbakir. 1:29:18 EI: And then you went to Diyarbakir with plane again? 1:29:23 ZT: Yes, plane because we could take a bus but its 24 hours so it is like a long ride, so we went to from Istanbul to Diyarbakir we checked our things, where you guys going? Diyarbakir. 1:29:34 EI: How was the treatment in Istanbul? 1:29:36 ZT: I mean personally I did not have any problem, like honestly the did not ask me any questions, and they did not tell me what you doing, just I gave them my passport, American passport, they stamped for me, you are good. 1:29:49 EI: You had American passport and you said you are going to Iraq? 1:29:53 ZT: No in Istanbul they even did not ask as, so we went to Diyarbakir, where you guys going- 1:29:57 EI: You got visa for Turkey, right? 1:30:00 ZT: Yes, Turkey yes. So what happened right now in Diyarbakir when we landed because the airport was small, so we took our packs and there were cabs over there, cab driver you know? 1:30:10 EI: Actually, in Diyarbakir it is not a civil airport as far as I know. Is it army? 1:30:15 ZT: Diyarbakir when we went over there was like tanks pretty much a lot of places you know like militaries because- 1:30:21 EI: Because it is not a civilian airport. 1:30:23 ZT: Still what happened right now they were saying PKK comes and they attacks sometimes but they did not ask us anything because they know we are visitors, I am not going to talk about the Kurdish Turkey to see because what happened right now we were there and a couple of drivers over there and we told them, they said the situation is getting a little better because now some of them they get visa, they can cross borders, they make some money for their families you know before they did not have that either, so it was hard. 1:30:52 EI: So, you went to Diyarbakir and then Kurdistan. 1:30:54 ZT: Diyarbakir and then we get a cab driver, because we asked them who have a visa, because some they do not have a visa, they could not cross the border, because they have to be in Turkish side. So, one of them said okay we can take you guys, so we went to the last one that is still that time between the Kurdish government and the Turkish government was not that strong connection like today in a business and everything. 1:31:17 EI: Yes, today is after 2009 I think it is better. 1:31:20 ZT: The driver told us and we knew, he said they ask you guys where you going, say we going to go to Iraq, but if you guys say Kurdistan and you know sometimes that word is going to interfere you know, they are not going to probably like it, but right now if you go right now; I am going to go to Kurdistan, so it is not going to hurt them that much, so situation is become so different like technology, like I am telling you friendship Turkey right now doing business with the Kurd, Kurd doing business with the Turk you know they doing with Iran, so if you go right now like if you have pictures like in 10 years ago, fifteen years ago as a people and you see have the same picture of that person like right now. 1:31:59 EI: So how do you feel? 1:32:00 ZT: Really great. Like this is why I said I am proud to say I am a Kurd, because like I told you if I live like in a country I am not going to mention any countries because every country people love their own countries but if live in Africa or wherever country you live in, if you have a bad reputation in United Nation like your country as corruption, killings and these things, you going to be like oh! man did I said this, but you will be happy and you will be proud if your country is doing good. 1:32:31 EI: Yeah, when you walking in the street for example in Duhok, what was your feeling because you remember your childhood, you remember bad stories, so memories, what were your feelings? 1:32:45 ZT: The feelings, I was telling my couple of cousins with me like sometimes I think like was one o’clock we were going to… we drove the car, his father’s car- 1:32:56 EI: 1am? 1:32:57 ZT: 1am something like that with his brother, we took his father’s car and I did not how to drive shift I said listen bear with me, so we drove we went like one o’clock, two o’clock I said listen, look right now, ten-fifteen years ago situation was so much different, right now you can go over there, stores. 1:33:14 EI: You can drive during the night. 1:33:16 ZT: A coffee, a cake, one o’clock in the afternoon, and Christian are free, they can do whatever they want, they have their own stores, do you have this, nobody come to you saying why you have this, why driving in this time, they do not have checkpoints like in the cities, I remember like in Saddam Hussein’s time if you travel in the night, there was like so many checkpoints at night; one in this town, one in this area, one in this sport, you could not even believe it, now, but they only have one checkpoint you know in that side because so many, they want to that bad people to come in like terrorist and these things, otherwise there is no checkpoints from here to go all the way to Erbil it is like probably there is another checkpoint. So, it is really great because you feel like you are somebody, you are human; you live in a country they care about you. 1:34:14 EI: So, as I understand you are happy living in the United States and being Kurdistan citizen. 1:34:21 ZT: Yes. See that is why I am saying our country is good, our government, they accept doors to citizenship, some countries they do not accept it. 1:34:25 EI: Yeah, you have dual citizenship? 1:34:27 ZT: Yes. Because we are Kurd, we are from Iraq and you are Turk, I mean you are from the United States so what happened right now we have still- 1:34:39 EI: You have Iraqi passport or Kurdistan? 1:34:41 ZT: No, what I am saying right now the Kurdish people accepted, like for example right now if my friend is from India says as soon as I become US citizen, I have to give up all my things. 1:34:52 EI: In India? 1:34:53 ZT: In India. So, the Kurdish people accepted like you can have the ID, right now something you know when we go over there. 1:35:00 EI: You can have both IDs, right? It is not a problem. 1:35:04 ZT: Yes, no. 1:35:04 EI: Iraqi or Kurdistan. 1:35:0 ZT: No, right now when we go over there. 1:35:07 JT: Both is the same. 1:35:07 ZT: Yeah when we go over there right now something because what happened right now we can, I give them my drier license, sometimes I can give them my Iraqi ID like the Kurdish, they going to look at it, my name, my picture. They are not going to say oh! - 1:35:19 EI: If you back to Kurdistan, you will not have any problem like as a citizen you have all rights? 1:35:26 ZT: No. 1:35:26 EI: Okay. DO you want to go back one day or, do you miss something? 1:35:29 ZT: I hope. I am not saying because I do not like this country honestly, but because we want to help them, you know we want them, we want the country to become somebody like some rest of the countries like you know we can get the visa, if you want to visit like Turkish you know, like Gulf countries, like European, they have their own citizenship, they come in, they visit you know, they visit their relatives, they come for business, for pleasure whatever they come for, two weeks later they go back, so we want our country become like same like this because if you become economically good condition and everything become better hopefully tomorrow the Kurdish citizenship you know Kurdish if you have passport, you can travel anywhere you want. 1:36:14 EI: One day you will go back. 1:36:16 ZT: Hopefully that is what I am saying right now because everything is like t the modern time if you like become models and if you become like stable in business what other countries want? Business, so when you go travel right now anywhere you want, like if you go to Turkey, if Istanbul is probably say number one in Europe tourism like people go to there, why because they treat you like really good, if they treat you like in the airport like in bad reputation they give you attitudes, if you go to this town, if you go to this restaurant they treat you say oh! you are from this, you know this, are you going to go back again? 1:36:50 EI: No. 1:36:50 ZT: No. So that is why my couple of cousins they go over there, they love it, why? Not because they love it because beaches all over there, or the trees or big mountains or big house or tall buildings, no-no. the treatment like the people treat you, they go wo a restaurant, they treat you good, nice, they do not say oh you are from this part, then they going to give you shish kebab, they going to give you this. 1:37:16 EI: So, they are welcome to tourists. 1:37:18 ZT: Yes, that is what I am saying, so Istanbul became so powerful economically. That is why the Kurdish people trying to establish good environment. 1:37:28 EI: Okay. How old is your children? 1:37:32 ZT: Five, I think my daughter is going to be close to three, and my youngest son is like two and a half months. 1:37:40 EI: Two sons and one daughter? 1:37:44 ZT: Yes. 1:37:44 EI: Okay, great. So, they will grow up here. 1:37:46 ZT: They are citizens, this is why I say to them I say now, see this is why I say about this country is great, they could be president tomorrow, for example I am not saying they going to be citizen I mean president but the thing is right now in this country. 1:38:00 EI: They were born in America. 1:38:03 ZT: Yes, what happened right now in this country if you, right now is changed because you have to have so much money fund for this but in other stuff they do not stop you to become somebody like they do not stop you, your education has to be stopped right here or your business cannot be going further or your this has to be stopped, so you have opportunities that is why this country became great because they came all over and they are open, so you open a restaurant… 1:38:35 EI: So, you are like in daily life you do not have any problem, right? 1:38:38 ZT: No. 1:38:38 EI: Right as an American citizen you have all rights. 1:38:41 ZT: You have every right and you can do so many things the other American cannot do it. 1:38:47 EI: I mean because of your identity there is no problem, because you are Muslim identity or Kurdish identity? 1:38:53 ZT: No, see that is why I say this country is- 1:38:54 EI: For example, in your job or something. 1:38:55 ZT: No, that is why I say this country is different because and they know it I am Muslim because I leave Fridays, I told my boss I said I am going to go to my Friday hour… They give you an hour. 1:39:04 EI: So, you still practice your religion and your culture- 1:39:09 ZT: Yes, pray, fasting- 1:39:10 EI: So, yes, I learn about that as well, like your cultural life here. You still have Kurdish community in Binghamton and there are lots of families so you have relation with them, what is your relation and do you have any special day or celebration or visit or something? 1:39:27 ZT: Yes, celebration is there, like Newroz hopefully we going to invite you too, hopefully we going to make Newroz, we are hoping to make Newroz and you know we going to have Halabja and other celebration like Eid we go, I think two years ago, two-three years ago on the Eid we went to a part after- 1:39:57 EI: To picnic or something? 1:39:58 ZT: Picnic, you know what happen after pray, Eid Pray? We say you know each person bring and share… pretty much most of them came, majority of them, I think two-three family one of them they had sick in their family but- 1:40:07 EI: Not just men, the women children. 1:40:10 ZT: Everybody, so we said if each person brings and share desserts and food bring cookies too you know whatever you going to bring and each have tables we went to the Cole Part, and until now everybody says that was the best Eid ever, because everybody saw each other in five minutes… 1:40:29 EI: I mean still have relation and close relation visiting each other. 1:40:32 ZT: Yes, we have everything. 1:40:33 EI: Okay. Great! I mean if someone is sick you know about it or- 1:40:36 ZT: Right now if one of our friend is sick, he would visit him every day, but he stand couple nights with him, my brother stay couple night with him, other people like friends staying couple nights, the other… because what happened right now if he stays every day say a month or twenty day, he is going to be tired, he is going to be emotionally, physically he is going to be waaaaa, he is going to crazy, if he stays only two days, I am going to stay the other two days, things are going to be easier around everybody. So, the Kurdish community is really good for such kind of stuff because they do not say Oh he is from this tribe or he is from this part, he is from there. 1:41:19 EI: Yeah, when you come to the United States you are all Kurds not your local tribes because- 1:41:25 ZT: So, they help each other a lot, they do whatever they can do to make their life easier. 1:41:34 EI: Did all the second generation, did they all get their education, college education or something? 1:41:39 ZT: Not all of them, most of them are getting, some of them are still in colleges, some of them are not… what happened right now that is because before us, because it was like other group was here of Kurdish people, some of them came like in (19)92, (19)93- 1:41:58 EI: Just after the uprising. 1:42:00 ZT: After the uprising, so what happened right now the education level was not that high. 1:42:08 EI: For the first generation? 1:42:10 ZT: For the first generation, what happened right now say for example my father even he did not go to school but education on his head is a top priority over everything, not because you want to be educated so I can. 1:42:22 EI: I mean with education I do not mean the knowledge or culture or something but diploma, I mean for example you got your Diploma and you can study in American company, so I mean that- 1:42:36 ZT: No, some of them are getting it right now, a lot of them are still in Broome community college, they got I think, I do not know how many students we have in Broome Community College, we have quite a few people. 1:42:48 JT: Thirty-five students in BCC and couple people in BU. 1:42:55 EI: Okay, great. Thank you so much. 1:42:57 ZT: Oh, no thank you. I appreciate- 1:43:00 EI: If you want to add something and in general. 1:43:03 ZT: I said everything, hopefully they going to be happy with this. [laughs] 1:43:06 EI: Yeah, it is mostly one hour and forty-five minutes. 1:43:10 ZT: Wow, I thought maybe it is going to be twenty minutes. No, it was good. 1:43:22 EI: [laughs] It was a good conversation, thank you so much. 1:43:24 ZT: Like a couple of my friends saying why we are not going to make the whole thing at once, I said listen because if everybody speak- 1:43:29 EI: It is personal story and the will get the common things. 1:43:30 ZT: No, no, no I said it is for your time too, imagine if have like six more people now, an hour for me. 1:43:33 EI: I think I will then be more tired than… [laughs]. Okay, thank you so much. 1:43:35 ZT: Thank you. 1:43:36 JT: -you your best of luck. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Zeki Taha Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c6e6e039fa2e63eb99318b3e3224a102.jpeg 3de3f6acae74084ef2a291834e526c2c https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ebd1aac58bd71decc5144562bf6354d2.m4a ce5530381a7bceae723f391c1d114945 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. URL http://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/viewer/viewer.php?cachefiles=Wasyliw.xml Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website http://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=Wasyliw.xml OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ZenonWasyliw.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Zenon Wasyliw Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dillon Eggleston and Grace Palumbo Biographical Text Zenon Wasyliw is a professor of History at Ithaca College. He is a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church here in Johnson City, New York. Both of his parents emigrated from Ukraine at the end of World War II after his father had been offered a position in the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Binghamton as a choir director. He and his wife live together in Ithaca, and make the hour long drive to Johnson City each week to attend mass, although his wife is not of Ukrainian descent. He has traveled to Ukraine and Russia multiple times to tour the hometowns of his parents and do dissertation work at Kiev University. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 54:15 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-10 Language English Subject LCSH Wasyliw, Zenon. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Culture; Ukrainian cooking; Broome County (N.Y.) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Soviet Union; Ethnicity; Historians ; Ukrainian Orthodox Church; Ukrainian Catholic Church; Ethnic identity Digital Publisher Binghamton University Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Zenon Wasyliw Interviewed by: Grace Palumbo and Dillon Eggelston Transcriber: Grace Palumbo and Dillon Eggelston Date of interview: 10 April 2016 at 12:00 pm Interview Setting: St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Dillon Eggleston: Good afternoon, it's Sunday April 10th, 2016. I'm Dillon Eggleston. Grace Palumbo: And I'm Grace Palumbo. DE: And we're interviewing -- Zenon Wasyliw: Zenon Wasyliw, or Zenon Wasyliw. DE: And we're at Saint John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Johnson City, New York and we'd like to begin our interview. So Professor Wasyliw, could you tell us when and where you were born? ZW: I was born not far from here on the north side of Johnson City. My parents came from Ukraine. DE: Can you tell us where in the Ukraine your family comes from? ZW: Well my father came from Stryi, which is in the Galician or Halychyna part and my mother came from the Volyn region, which was more in the northern part and that's where the both of them met and actually lived before living is in the Volyn region, in the northern region of Ukraine. GP: When did they come over to the United States? ZW: They came in 1948, along with my brother who was born in 1946. They lost three children before coming here. Two daughters died in a carpet bombing and a son who had died in a refugee camp. And so I'm the American- I was the American in the family because I was born here. DE: Did your family first settle in Binghamton or was this a later move? ZW: No, they first settled in this area. DE: In Johnson City? ZW: Well first in Binghamton, the area of Downs Avenue. And then they worked at Endicott Johnson and bought an Endicott Johnson house, an E.J. house. You've heard of that? DE: Oh yes yes, I had a maternal grandmother who worked for EJ as well. Did your family consider elsewhere before leaving the Ukraine? ZW: What's interesting is, though my dad came from a very poor family, to finish his education he went to a religious seminary but never got ordained. But he made a number of friends who told him they were leaving for the United States and that they would help sponsor him if he ever wanted to leave. And so it happened and they had become priests, Basilian Fathers, and so they filled out the paperwork and he was brought to Binghamton to be a choir director at the Ukrainian Catholic church. And so it was kind of a link of former friends. GP: Did you have any relatives here when your family came over? ZW: No, nope. Almost all the relatives stayed behind in Ukraine. An aunt and uncle did settle in Chicago. DE: You mentioned that your father was at the Ukrainian Catholic church. ZW: Yes. DE: But today we're at an Orthodox Church. ZW: Yes. DE: Can you tell us a little about that? ZW: Sure! You know in Ukraine, even now, it's very pluralistic religiously. You even have three Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdictions. And so my mother was born Ukrainian Orthodox but became Ukrainian Catholic and I grew up in the Ukrainian Catholic church. But there's always this pull, you know, with the Ukrainian Orthodox and I was hired at Ithaca College in 1989 and another lovely person was put into my office who became my wife -you met her in the social hall- and a very good friend of ours, he was the chairperson of the communication department and was also a Greek Orthodox priest. And so we decided to become Eastern Orthodox and it was important to maintain the heritage. And so we joined this parish. But I grew up with friends with both churches. But I kind of like with this parish, how can I put it, it's-- not to be unfair to the other parish, but it's a little less nationalistic and very accepting. I mean you have, most of the parish have, you know, non-Ukrainian spouses. We have people who aren't even of Ukrainian background who are members, the Parish president, Brian Baxendale. So in a way, it was a number of things, a very good friend of ours being an Orthodox priest, but also leaning toward -we had our issues with the Catholic Church too. And granted, and so we joined the parish, and then when our daughter was born in 1995, she was baptized here. And we would take the one-hour drive almost every week, and she went to religious instructions, and it was a very warm and accepting parish. So I don't know if that explains part of it, but yeah I mean, there are other issues too, where you have congregational control of finances, for example and a little bit more of a democratic spirit. But my brother still goes to the other church, I have many friends. DE: Have you visited the Ukraine since your family has come to America? ZW: I have. My area is East European history, Soviet history, and I first went in the summer of 1984 with a group of Canadian educators. And it was the first time, I met all of these distant, even you know, cousins, uncles and aunts, they gave me a very nice welcome. I had never met them before, but I used to write letters to my aunt and uncle in Ukraine. But I have a much larger extended family, and so that was really very, very interesting. But then I returned again in 1986 to do dissertation research and so I was at Moscow State University and Kiev State University. And then I returned in the 90s and 2000s, but to be honest since my mom passed away - my dad passed away '86 and then my mom passed away about ten years ago- I really haven't kept up with the family. DE: Can you tell us what it was like to meet these people for the first time? You had mentioned you had correspondence with them. ZW: Yeah, I had correspondence, more with my mom's side of the family, but less so with my father's. And they all started crying and you know they were us telling stories, it was a rough life. And my mom had actually visited there back in 1977, but you know when she told them about losing three kids and surviving and-- I mean it was. I had one uncle who was in the Soviet Army, who died and never found out where he was. I had another uncle I met, who was in the Red Army, in the Soviet Red Army. He was captured by the Germans, he escaped. He was a part of the French Resistance but then he got arrested because he was in France. But then he was a veteran, and then I had another uncle who fought for Ukrainian liberation. But you know, a number of them were taken away as slave laborers by the Germans as well. But they got me drunk a number of times. So it was interesting, it was more intentional, in 1984, type of stuff so. I should have been better in keeping in touch with them, so. GP: Was it difficult to get there because they were under Soviet rule at the time? ZW: Well, by 1984 things had opened up and I just didn't want to go as a tourist. So I went together with a group of Canadian educators, I was the only American in the group. And it was Ukrainian language and literature seminars in Kiev University, and then traveling around. I was still a member of the other parish and people had thought I'd become, you know, that I'm betraying whatever, but in a way it made a big impact, traveling there. So I learned a lot too and I picked up more of my language and became very fluent and kind of got a real flavor for it. And then in 1986 I was there from 86 into 1987, living in a dorm at Moscow State University, surviving on 350 Rubles a month, and it was after Chernobyl. And so I was in Kiev in December, but I'm glad I did it both times, because now when I teach, I have these great stories for my students. In terms of how my experiences, staying ahead of the authorities when making photocopies of documents or microfilms because I had a faculty mentor, who was from SUNY Albany, whenever I would make copies, he would take them from me and take them to the US embassy. And it would take them for a while to find out what I was photocopying. They would start restricting it and then I would go to another place to make microfilm and stuff like that. And my faculty mentor did the right thing because the materials were sent out by diplomatic pouch, 'because the authorities would never look at the stuff. So it was interesting. DE: Quickly, what was 300 Rubles, how much would that be in today's, do you know? ZW: Well, the problem at the time was, there wasn't stuff to buy using Rubles. But they did have specialty stores, for hard currency, but I didn't want to do it. And you know, to be honest, there were other people who were on an exchange who came from more affluent backgrounds. I was from SUNY, I didn't have, I did not have disposable income and so I tried to live like everyone else did. And so, I survived. In Moscow my uncle and cousin came up and they brought me dried fish and goods and stuff like that, which was an experience, which was nice. But you know, there were people that differentiated by us too. If you were a member of the party you were pretty well off. I made a number of British friends who were doing research, and we found out that one academy of sciences library archive had a good cafeteria. We would go there for lunch, I could go on and on. I tell my students these stories. DE: Do you have a strong sense of Ukrainian identity, despite being in the US and do you feel as though that's a different identity than the Catholic Church, which you mentioned was more nationalistic? ZW: Well, I mean, there are people related, distantly, between the two parishes. You know, I've lived in Ithaca where we're a very progressive community and for example the revolution that took place in Ukraine I see as very, very positive. Because it deals with building a civil society and an identity based on citizenship, not on nationality. And so in Ukraine, you could be Ukrainian background, you could be Russian background, you could be Jewish, you could be Muslim and you're a citizen of Ukraine. And so for me it's really a cultural identity. And you know, the more the merrier. And in a way this parish really represents this because it's more identity based and kind of sharing a culture, you know, if you've looked at the hall, you've looked around here, people are very proud of their heritage. Even though there isn't a strict lineage of Ukrainian, you marry Ukrainian. But to me it's more of a cultural affinity. And my wife is not of Ukrainian background but she really likes the parish, she's a member of the sisterhood, I sing in the choir, can't make it every Sunday. But our daughter, you know, loves this parish. Her name is Victoria, she decided to take her Ukrainian name, Vika, V-I-K-A. She's a third-year student at Northeastern, electrical engineering major. Pat and I are historians, but to her, the identity is really important, and people from the parish send her letters. You know, they give little scholarships for college students from here. And so it's a nice -do you see what I mean? It's beyond just identity, but it's a community, centered around this cultural identity that's still very important to people. GP: How long have you spoken Ukrainian? ZW: Since I was born. It's an interesting situation, where my parents would start talking to me in English, but I refused to speak to them in English. I would speak to them in Ukrainian because to me, I knew that was their native language. And so we had the Giant Market, you remember the Giant Market? DE: Yes. ZW: They would start talking to me in English and I would respond to them in Ukrainian. It was probably why I became a historian, kind of a contrarian type of person. Of course when I was in Ukraine, I really worked on picking up more of the literary language, so I'm pretty fluent in it. GP: Does your daughter speak Ukrainian as well? ZW: Oh she's angry at me that I didn't teach her any. I started to, but you know, she might pick it up. But do you see what I mean, identity is wide open. But you know it also comes up with January seventh is when we celebrate Christmas, Ukrainian Christmas and Easter follows an Eastern Orthodox calendar and you know, we do a number of other traditions as well. DE: What smells remind you of Ukraine? ZW: Cabbage. DE: Cabbage? GP: Cabbage? ZW: Otherwise known as Kapusta. You know it's a very durable food, that and potatoes. Actually when I was living in the dorms, back in the 80s, there was always plenty of cabbage and potatoes, I mean, it's like the Irish. I don't know if you know a little Irish history, they had their famine, and everyone had to leave and they had to deal with the English. And with the Ukrainians it was the same thing, they had this traumatic famine, people had to leave, they had to deal with the Russian Empire. When they made food to sell they do cabbage rolls, and the pierogis out of potatoes. GP: I was reading about that online, looked good. ZW: Well, you should come. GP: How do the cultural values of people in the US seem to differ from those of the Ukraine? ZW: When you have a community like this, there's a sense of watching out for one another and even though, you know, we're not related by blood, there is this feeling of an extended family. And I think that's becoming less and less common in the US. People are kind of more atomized, kind of go off on their own, and so that I think is very nice. And in Ukraine it's more pluralistic and one of my areas of study is sociology of religion and in Ukraine there's Ukrainian Greek Catholic church, there’s a Roman Catholic church, there are three different Ukrainian Orthodox churches, because we argue. I mean, do you see what I mean? It's more fluid. There's a strong Jewish community there. A Muslim community. The fastest growing religion is Mormonism. So, part of it is, because even with Poland, you have the Catholic Church, in Russia it's the Russian Orthodox Church under the Patriarch. And part of the Ukrainian culture is there's this strong identity and feel of attachment, but this kind of, probably why we haven't had political independence as much. Because you kind of have this real diversity of thought and attachment. I hope that makes sense. GP: Yeah. ZW: And in a way Ukrainian Orthodox, Ukrainian Catholic, and there are Ukrainian Protestants in the area too. Pentecostalists. DE: So, you mentioned that your wife wasn't Ukrainian but she's since been accepted into the parish. ZW: Oh very nicely. DE: How has this differed from other marriages that have been within the parish itself? ZW: This parish is very, very welcoming. I think most of the marriages are Ukrainian non-Ukrainian, actually. You read the liturgy; most of it is in English. But people still maintain the other traditions, I think it was a long-term priest here, Father Lawryk and his wife, who really had this "Let's welcome everyone in but share the culture." So, you know, the deacon who was serving today, he's not of Ukrainian background, but he married someone from the parish. And then there's another example, I'm forgetting his name, his last name is Baxter, where as a kid, he kind of he got into trouble and one Ukrainian family kind of adopted him and he started going to dance and rehearsals and everything else. He became a Ukrainian Orthodox priest. Not one little iota of even Ukrainian background. So I mean it's this kind of fluid, more fluid identity, which is nice. But I think looking at community and having shared cultural values, and with this family you have these core families, larger families, and you know attendance can vary. When they all come together at Easter, the place fills up. Hope I'm not giving too long answers. GP and DE: No, no these are the are great. DE: Did your parents have trouble assimilating to American culture when they came over? ZW: Well, in some ways yes, because the parish became the center of their life and you know, my father was the choir director and my mom volunteered a lot with preparing food and raising funds and with organization. But you know, they also had friends beyond the community as well, I think as time went on. And you know with my brother and me, that kind of bring things out, but clearly the focus -you know, what would happen is since many people at Sacred Heart had to leave quickly and many of their relatives stayed behind, you would have a system of Godparents. And so my Godmother, Yechyk, I became closer with that family. My mother was Godmother of Stephan and then my brother had -you see what I'm getting at? There are ways of kind of creating another form of an extended family. They're always going to feel like I'm a member of that parish, which is fine and I still stay in contact with them. So we kind of have this interesting cultural adaptation with Godparents and making those kinds of relations as well. I think in this parish -because this was formed in 1926- you're already getting into fourth generation members and a bit at Sacred Heart. You have a number of people who are interrelated as well but extended families are pretty strong here too. GP: Are there any elements of American culture that you prefer over Ukrainian culture or vice versa? ZW: Well, you know American culture is so different. I've lived in Ithaca since 1989, and we have our own culture there! And so both my wife and I were, Ithaca is a very caring and open-minded community and so that's kind of our view of American Ithaca culture. And I think American culture is changing a bit and even in Ukraine it depends what region of Ukraine you go to you'll find differences as well. What I think is still important is this sense of having some kind of identity, having a community. I mean, when the parish puts on their Ukrainian Days Festival, it's amazing. Everyone just comes together, volunteers, no one gets paid. People come together, they volunteer, their time, the choir sings, there are dancers, you know they make $30,000 to $35,000 to help support the church. And so do you see it's kind of this volunteerism, caring for one another; people aren't really talking American politics here either, because that could be pretty lethal. That's the one thing missing at Ithaca, because you don't have these ethnic communities. There's so many university students. Sometimes we'll go to the Greek Church, but it's nothing like here. And so, in a way, you know, it's very accepting, but still it's nice to have a community and our daughter really benefitted a lot by it. Because you know, coming here every week when my mother was still alive, she got to see her grandmother. But it has this other alternative community that she can look forward to. And her friends don't always understand this. Members of the Sisterhood sent her a box of cookies and wrote her a personal letter, and she put it up on her bulletin board. She says "Look, people care." And so, I think that's a big thing. And you know, the communities can vary in identity, this is a far more assimilated parish because the founders, there are very few people who were born in Ukraine here. Then at Sacred Heart it's a different situation, but even they're kind of adapting and you know they have an English liturgy there too, so it depends. But I'm warped by it, actually I'm a little critical, I don't know if you've ever heard the term "ten square miles surrounded by reality." That's what defines Ithaca, and I just see these bumper stickers. And when you have an Ivy League university and Ithaca College, which is a private university, it kind of brings in a lot of wealth. And you can kind of live this lifestyle, believing you know a lot of stuff being out of touch with the rest of the world. I hope you understand what I'm getting at. And Universities can be real bubbles too. DE: Can you tell us how you and your wife met? ZW: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's funny because we were both grad students at Binghamton University, but she was Medieval and I did East Europe, so we knew of each other but then, we were both hired at Ithaca College at the same time and put in the same office, [laughter], and it was, in a way, what also happened is a lot of older faculty, but they really liked us. And that's the other kind of thing that there's less of, they would have dinner parties and we would be invited, and as I've mentioned, part of the group was a Greek Orthodox priest who later became a metropolitan, archbishop, but he loved to party. And, you know, we said; well let's have Gus perform the ceremony, so we kind of had our own little group as well. But since he was a good friend of ours, we had the wedding there [in Ithaca]. But there was a priest here, Father Myron, who I would stay in touch with and he kept sending parish bulletins, and when our daughter was to be born we decided, well, you know, we want to give her all of this, and it was the right move. Now, in the mid-1990s, the latter part of the nineties, Ithaca College let go of a bunch of people, and my wife was one of them, but then she got a job at Cornell. She's an assistant dean for admissions and advising, but she does international admissions for the liberal arts school. So she's been to, just last year she's been to India for two weeks, through a full break, Armenia in the fall, Japan in January. She's been to Australia, then China a couple of times, different places in Europe, nice places in Europe. I laugh because, a little over ten years ago, as part of a grant that sent me to less favorable parts of Eastern Europe, not the capitals, but these other places, so we make the commute here, [to this parish], whenever we can. When our daughter was still going to classes here, and my mother was alive, we almost made it every week, but now it's more like once or twice a month. DE: Was your wedding based in Ukrainian culture? ZW: No, it was a Greek Orthodox ceremony in English, though my best man, Mike Lowa, did a few things in Ukrainian. He's belonged to three different parishes, but it was really a very, met a few Ukrainians from Sacred Heart, but it was professors, and family who was there, along with a few faculty members who were there. So, there weren't many [Ukrainians], that wasn't as important to us. It was important to have friends there, and friends performing the ceremony. And we had an open bar. [Laughter]. And it was all in Ithaca, which was neat. GP: Do you think your Ukrainian heritage influenced you to become a historian? ZW: Oh, definitely. You know, I had, because my grandparents were in Ukraine, I had replacement grandparents, and I heard so many stories from them, and they came from different regions of Ukraine. And, my dad and mom would tell a lot of stories, and a lot of people in the community would push for their children to get degrees in engineering, and medicine, and stuff like that, but they just didn't have people who would study history, because what do you do with a degree in history? But I was also thinking of going into high school teaching. Things just kind of-- you know how they can build, you know, here I am at Binghamton, okay, I'll become a history major, I'll get an MAT, though, I went to Harvard summer school when I was a junior, and they said you should keep getting a PhD, you know this stuff really well. And I said, well there so much work in a PhD, so instead I got an MAT to teach high school social studies, and I did that a little bit, but then people said you should keep on going and I got another master’s, and then a PhD. And, in a way, I was trying to look at Ukrainian history form a larger perspective, and it was in the spring of 1989, we were going to Cornell to do some research, and we were passing Ithaca College. I looked to the right and I said, I would like to teach here. Two weeks later, a job opened up, and they hired me. So, it was meant to be. But, I'm always careful. My research was on Ukrainian history, and as when the Soviet Union fell apart, suddenly there weren't many people who knew about this part of the world, because the idea was, well, you study Russian history, because that's the "empire," and you didn't have as many people looking at other parts of the Soviet Union, in part to employability. But at Ithaca College, I really liked it; because I taught a variety of courses and then when they found out I had an MAT, they asked me to coordinate the social studies teacher education program. SO, I have this whole other community. We put out 3-5 people a year, and we have this closed Facebook group of graduates who are social studies teachers or administrators. And I was chair of the history department for six years, and interim director of the gerontology institution. So, I do a lot of different things, and teach different courses, but in a way, being interested in the family past, and trying to make sense of really tragic histories all around, and so, here we are. DE: What was your thesis? ZW: I was planning to do a dissertation on secular rituals, and to replace sacred rituals. But they hired a new dissertation director, and she was Heather's [DeHaan] dissertation advisor at Toronto, but her name was Viola, and what Viola basically said was, well pick a topic on peasants or peasants. And so, I decided to look at the status of the Ukrainian countryside in the 1920s. It was very interesting because, in the 1920s, with the Soviet history, they actually became much more liberal. They didn't have collective farms, and they had a policy of nativization, where they were pushing, and teaching in native languages. And so in was in the 1920s that for the first time-- because during the Russian Empire, they banned Ukrainian-- they had a number of decrees where Ukrainian was not only not to be taught, but it was not even allowed to be written. And so, you could get in trouble. The portrait of the poet Taras Shevchenko on the right, [on the wall of the room], was a serf, and he was, his freedom was bought, and he started writing poetry. He was in St. Petersburg as an artist, but they sent him off to Siberia, and he started writing in Ukrainian. But his Ukrainian became kind of a social history because he wrote about the struggles of everyday people and stuff like that. And he was always repressed, and there was always this pressure on the language. The Ukrainian part that was in Austria, they were allowing for more. But then, in 1921, the Soviet government said, in order to convince people to be Communist, we have to teach them in their native language. And so a decree went out, 'everyone is now going to learn Ukrainian.' They also created a separate Ukrainian republic, Soviet Republic, and you had the first president of Ukraine, independent Ukraine, coming back and the danger was that in the Soviet Union, you had a very strong Ukrainian identity. People were speaking Ukrainian, and so I'm looking at this period where, suddenly, people are speaking in their native language, literacy rates are improving. But on the other hand, they're not taking on a Soviet identity, they're taking on more of the Ukrainian identity. And so, when Stalin takes power in 1928, all of this is just going to be crushed. So, to make a long story short, that's it. The areas that I'm studying, neither of my parents come from really, but I thought it was a good social history. So the challenges to get the voice of the people up, and very often, people didn't write, but it was a period of even Soviet history that was more relaxed, up until Stalin came. GP: What were your parent's experiences in Ukraine, or in the USSR even? ZW: Well, my dad was older, and he was born in what was the Austrian Empire. The memoires of that era were better, but, I mean, it was during the First World War, and as a child he remembers different armies coming and going and coming and going. And then Ukraine became part of Poland, which was kind of difficult, because if you were of Ukrainian background, you kind of couldn't really get jobs. My mother was a bit younger, but he grew up in a city, which was much different. And that probably impacted me too, because you had Poles and Jews living in the city, and so, she never learned how to embroider, she never did the Easter eggs. Do you see what I'm getting at? A lot of this [the culture] is still pretty much a village culture, and so, in a way, I may have been advantaged. My dad came from a very, very poor family, but at the time the Austrian government stated opening up gymnasiums, kind of schools, that carried on, and when it was time to continue the education, it was difficult. With thirteen kids in the family, my father couldn't afford it, and then he found out that you could go to school for free at a religious seminary, and so he went off, and finished his degree there. Then, he studied Latin, among other things. He never became a priest, but kind of came back and was pretty much unemployed. Eventually, he was hired to be a choir director, and stuff like that. When the Soviets came in, because he was literate, he actually got a job, helping edit a newspaper. People around here wouldn't like to hear that, of course, but, you know, there are different stories. Then, they asked him to teach because my father, by this time, knew seven languages. But, there was always this threat, they [the Soviets] would say, 'we know you have a religious background,' and that was always going to hang over his head. So, I think he was able to stay neutral when he was teaching, and then when the Nazis came in, he just stayed teaching in the school there. Aunts and uncles were taken away as forced laborers, Eastern workers, but he hung in there. Towards the end of the war he had to decide, 'do I stay, even though I have these friends in the United States who might sponsor me? Or, do I chance it with the state?' You know, he never held a gun. It's a very unique story, you would laugh. He was in the Soviet army for three days, and they kind of had him take notes on supplies, and then he was in the Polish army for three hours or something. But throughout the entire experience, he never was part of any military, which is very unique, I think. And so, trains were leaving for the West, and they had to decide, and they ended up going. And, they lost two kids in a massive bombardment. They ended up in a refugee camp, and then a son passed away. You know, it kind of reminds me of all of the stuff going on in Syria now. But, sure enough, they got to New York City. His friends from the seminary met him at the boat, at the dock, and then put him on a train to Binghamton. The people here were very nice, very supportive. What was interesting, when I got back in 1984, my aunt was telling me that the Soviet authorities kept bugging her to talk my dad into coming back. I mean, in a way that means he probably wasn't in as much trouble as others. But you know, you couldn't have trusted that. But, my aunt was very outspoken, and she said 'I told them, I wouldn't trust you, you guys are liars!' And her poor husband, who was a veteran, was like 'quiet, quiet, don't say anything like that!' DE: Why didn't your parents stay in New York City? ZW: Because part of my father's justification for coming here, was that they needed a choir director in Binghamton. GP: Did your parents ever go back to Ukraine? ZW: My mother did, in 1977. What happened was, when they got here, my father went to work at Endicott-Johnson, and my mother worked at Don McCarthy shoe factory. Much later, when my father worked in the factory, and he worked second shift, my mom worked first shift, so someone would be home. During dinner breaks, my dad would read books. So one day, his friend said 'Bill, listen.' He went by Bill because my parents were Visil and Maria, and when they got citizenship, they changed it to William and Mary, and my dad went by Bill. They gave me my name because it was very historic. But anyway, his friends would say 'Bill, you can be a teacher,' and towards the end, before he retired, he got certified to teach German and Russian, and he taught for a few years. And that kind of had an impact on my brother and I. My brother is ten years older, but he ended up going to SUNY Cortland, a PE major, but went on to get a PhD in anatomy, and a medical doctor, and just retired from practicing orthopedic surgery in this area. I mean, life is more complex, because you'll say 'oh, first generation college' and whatever else, but it's kind of muddled that way as well. DE: What were the seven languages that your father knew? ZW: Gee, well, we have Ukrainian, Polish, Russian, German, Latin, Greek, and I'm forgetting what other one. Because he knew the Slavic languages, he would've picked that up. But, you know, that would be the thing. There were other like him, who were educated, but in the US, people hear you speak with an accent and they think you're stupid. But that wasn't the case. But it's a nice community here, or at least it was. It's kind of scary when you now have this Islamophobia, and Dearborn, Michigan has a large concentration of Muslims, but they're very assimilated, and acclimated. People would come here because they saw opportunity. It's in Europe that the Muslims weren't as accepted as well. This area has had a lot of refugees come in. But one of the differences is that when my parents came, there was already an established community, and people were helping them out. DE: Have your children been to Ukraine? ZW: No. But at some point. You see, my wife's the good travel organizer, and she's looking to at some point arrange the right time. I have a step-daughter, who's older now and who just got back to Ithaca recently. She has a library science degree she got from Michigan. She was working at SUNY Potsdam and then met a web developer who's at St. Lawrence University. To our great fortune, he got a job at Cornell, and she got a job at Ithaca College as a librarian. Our younger daughter is at Northeastern, and they require three six-month co-ops, and that means she works form January until the end of June. This summer she's off to Italy, taking two four-credit classes. So, it's a matter of timing and money, as to when we'll go there. But, you know, I have a conference in New York, Association for the Study of Nationalities, and my wife has already planned out, there are a number of Ukrainian restaurants. And, you know, we visited the Ukrainian museum, and we support the church as well, so, kind of aligned, but we're not professional Ukrainians. I mean, it's important, but, it's part of our multi-faceted life. GP: What's your favorite Ukrainian recipe? ZW: My wife a great cook, but being in Ithaca, I prefer more vegetarian options, so the cabbage rolls with either rice and mushrooms, or buckwheat kasha. When I was over there, other Americans who were in Russia or Ukraine couldn't handle the buckwheat kasha, and I love that stuff, so I think that's also differentiated. But there's a lot of foods that I like. We had pierogies last night, and what's nice is that, when they make them here, if there's leftover dough, they let people take it home. So my wife made some potato pierogies. But usually I like the sauerkraut filling. DE: Can you tell us about Ukrainian music? ZW: Oh, yeah. It's lyrical. Often, Ukrainian will be compared to Italian. It's a very kind of lyrical language; it's kind of a sing-song language. I sang in the choir in the basses today and, you know, a cappella is the way the liturgy works, and everything is sung. Although at Sacred Heart they recite more often now. But, you know the choral music is nice, the folk music as well. It's a very, very rich musical culture. They had a priest and his wife here for decades, who did a really nice job in terms of all of the folk arts that were here, and putting in a folk choir, and stuff like that. But you know, in Ukraine, they have reggae, Ukrainian reggae, and other types of similar music. I don't' know if you've heard of 'Gogo' or there's another group as well, with very kind of a blend of new age and folk music. So there's a lot of different varieties. But I do admit, I like singing in the bass section of the choir. DE: Would your parents have listened to the reggae Ukrainian music, or was that not around yet? ZW: They didn't know what it was. So, I mean, you hear different musical styles, but I'm a reggae fan, or old music. DE: I think we've got a lot of information so thank you so much. GP: Thank you so much. ZW: You're welcome. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Zenon Wasyliw Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wasyliw, Zenon ; Eggleston, Dillon ; Palumbo, Grace Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Zenon Wasyliw is a professor of History at Ithaca College. He is a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church here in Johnson City, New York. Both of his parents emigrated from Ukraine at the end of World War II after his father had been offered a position in the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Binghamton as a choir director. He and his wife live together in Ithaca, and make the hour long drive to Johnson City each week to attend mass, although his wife is not of Ukrainian descent. He has traveled to Ukraine and Russia multiple times to tour the hometowns of his parents and do dissertation work at Kiev University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-10 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Zenon Wasyliw.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 54:15 Subject The topic of the resource Wasyliw, Zenon. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Culture; Ukrainian cooking; Broome County (N.Y.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/29d094dfb56a6a652dd1a003849aef2f.mp3 f99fff5f5363b040c77e25da0ab5d9b3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project. These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 13 June 2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marwan Tawfiq Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Zeravan Haji Language Kurdish Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Zeravan Haji