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Ukrainian Oral History Project

Interview with: Anastasiya Lyubas

Interviewed by: Maria Shulga and Sulim Kim

Transcriber: Maria Shulga and Sulim Kim

Date of interview: 30 March 2015 at 12:00 PM

Interview Setting: Bartle Library, Room 4520A at Binghamton University


(Start of Interview)

Maria Shulga: Hello Anastasiya. Again, my name is Maria and this is Sulim and we are going to ask you some questions today. Sulim, would you like to start with your question?

Sulim Kim: Sure. Anastasiya, we just wanted you to introduce yourself to the audience.

Anastasiya Lyubas: Great. First of all, thank you so much for interviewing me, it's a pleasure. My name is Anastasia and, as you know, I am a PhD student here at Binghamton. To tell you a little bit about myself, this is my third year in the US, I've come here as a Fulbright grantee to do my Master's at Binghamton University. Primarily, I came here to study at the Translation and Research program. They have a very good program here and I was considering applying for PhD. I ended up joining a PhD program in Comparative Literature, but did my Master's in Translation. My Master's entailed taking courses with translation workshops that would allow me to get both Master's in Comparative Literature and a certificate in Translation, which was Russian-English translation in that case. I am originally from Lviv, which is Western Ukraine. I know that in your course [HIST-381D: "Borderlands of Eastern Europe"] you study Galicia as a region, so that might be of some interest to you. When I talk about my identity, my city is very important to me. So, whenever somebody asks me where I'm from, I wouldn't say, "I'm from Ukraine," I would say, "I'm from Lviv, Ukraine," because that city identity shaped me, and who I am, and how I view the world in many different ways. I don't know what else you need to know about me. Should I talk about my family background?

MS: Yes, we are interested in you childhood stories, how you grew up, what kind of family you had, what languages you spoke in your household--

AL: Yes, so I was born in 1989, which was when the USSR was still around. But I grew up in the 90s, which was the period right after Ukraine gained its independence. It was a very interesting time to grow up in, a very challenging time, because there were all kinds of transitions going on. I was born in the city and I lived in one of these residential districts that you probably see with the Soviet-block-type of buildings. So I grew up in a huge apartment building in a family that had all kinds of different linguistic and ethnical backgrounds. My father's family (his parents, my grandparents) was moved from Poland during the operation called "Wisła," in which ethnical Ukrainians were moved from Polish territories where they used to live. It happened in the 1947, so my grandma was Ukrainian and my grandpa was Polish, but they still got moved to Ukraine and they lived in a small town near Lviv, so that part of the family is Ukrainian- and Polish-speaking. My mother's side of the family is also very diverse, because my grandpa comes from a family, who was German but they lived in the Soviet Union and had to in a way hide their identity. For the most part, that side of the family spoke Russian and they lived in Volyn region, which is a region in the North of Ukraine. They took on Russian names, so, for instance, my great-grandma was called Berta, which is a German name, but then she called herself Vera, which is a very Russian name. The fact that they were German was never mentioned for obvious reasons, for the reason of living in the Soviet Union. So my grandpa came to Lviv to study in a university and he met my grandma, whose family used to live in the region of Galicia. This is how they met. My parents both lived in the city; my mother was originally born in the city and my father was born in a small town of the Lviv region, but then came to Lviv to study, which was a very typical move -- to go the city from smaller towns and villages. So they stayed and my sister and I were born in Lviv. A couple of interesting stories that I remember from my childhood-- So, Soviet industry was dissolving at the time with the emergence of new markets and capitalism. In the 90s there was this very strange barter economy, which I'll try to explain the best I can. It is actually a funny story. My grandpa studied chemistry and he worked at a glass factory in Lviv, which was one of the factories that were established during the Soviet times. They had a lot of problems with the workers not getting paid. Factories in different industries had ties that existed during the Soviet Union, so, for instance, his glass factory was in cooperation with a sugar-making factory. What happened was that his factory instead of paying salary to the workers would give them salary in glass. Then they had to trade these glass products or sell them and get something else in return. So my grandpa would give someone a set of glasses and they would then give a bag of sugar in return. [Laughing] This is what I remember from my childhood. It is important to also say that we lived in an apartment with an extended family, so it wasn't just my family, which was my mother, father, sister, and me, but also my grandparents, so this is why I remember all these stories. My grandparents were involved in bringing up their grandchildren, so we lived in more of a communal situation. All my life I've lived in apartments, and I think this is interesting in American context, where public housing is not as common. You would usually be brought up in a family house, in a family home, apartment is seen as a temporary space, temporary residence. But in my case we moved from one apartment to another and all my life I spent in apartments, I never had a house. I think my notion of a home for myself looks more like an apartment.

MS: So you would prefer an apartment to a house even if you had a choice?

AL: I think so. Also because when I lived in this apartment building there were obviously a lot of kids my age and we used to play outside all the time, which is something that doesn't really happen anymore as much. I mean, the apartment buildings are still there and most of the people who live in the city still live in these residential districts with huge apartment blocks, but of course kids play video games now or they are on their computer all the time, so nobody plays outside as much. For me, playing outside and staying up late, especially in the summer, with the neighbor kids was a very fun part of my childhood.

MS: That is very interesting. Did you mostly speak Ukrainian at home?

AL: Yes, my parents are Ukrainian-speaking, but I grew up with different languages. Obviously, I was also growing up with Russian because of the television and the books. In Western Ukraine, Russian was not taught at schools as widely after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, so schools started taking out Russian and Russian literature as courses from their curricula. I went to a Ukrainian school, so I was not officially schooled in Russian language or literature until my family actually moved to Kiev, where I went to elementary school. This is where I learned Russian in an actual school setting. In my school in Lviv, I learned Ukrainian and World Literature, of which Russian Literature was just a part. However, my World Literature teacher was a former teacher of Russian Literature, so that was an interesting change. But as I said, I grew up with Russian informally, I guess. And while we spoke Ukrainian at home, my great grandpa's side of the family spoke Russian to me. I also watched a lot of Polish cartoons, because of the proximity to Poland, so that was the kind of background I was growing up with. I think it was also important that my mother as a student worked as a tour guide with Yugoslav tourists who would come to the Soviet Union. She worked in a bureau, the name of which I cannot remember exactly, but it was something along the lines of "intourist," ("интурист") which meant "иностранный турист," translated as "foreign tourist" bureau. She was trained in Serbo-Croatian and she gave tours of my city mostly to the students who would come from Yugoslavia. I am not sure about Kiev, but I know for sure she gave tours of Moscow and St.-Petersburg or Leningrad at the time. This is why we had a bunch of Serbo-Croatian books, for children as well. I grew up with all these different languages because I was looking at Serbo-Croatian children's books, watching Polish cartoons--

SK: Could you read and understand them?

AL: I wouldn't say that I know Serbo-Croatian, but when my mom read the books to me, I would understand. I guess I have a certain linguistic talent in Polish, since I figured out Polish on my own early on, and then I learned Polish grammar and actually went to Warsaw to study Polish later. By learning Polish I could understand Czech a little bit, since Czech and Polish are very similar to each other, sort of like Russian and Ukrainian. So if a Czech person was speaking Czech to me, I would probably answer in Polish, but I would understand what they had said in Czech, although I would not be able to speak Czech. I suppose that was my linguistic background.

SK: That's amazing!

MS: Yes, that is fascinating. You said that your mother used to be a tour guide, meaning that she was probably interested in history and arts, but your grandfather was a chemist. What inspired you to go into the field of translation and comparative literature?

AL: Let me start by saying that even in high school I was really into languages. We learned English from the first grade and I also took German a little later when I was in seventh grade I think. We had courses of Latin, so I learned Latin as well and I also really enjoyed World Literature. It was all subconscious at that point, because I was still trying to figure out which university to enter and which program. I decided to major in English language and literature and I entered a university at my hometown and my program also provided translation studies training, both practice and theory. That became my main focus -- English-Ukrainian and English-Russian translation. After I got my degree, I worked for a while and got my Master's in simultaneous interpreting there, which was a one-year program. After that I worked a little bit as an interpreter and a translator at my hometown. By deciding to apply for Fulbright, I was looking at translation research programs in the US, which are not many. There were probably five programs that I was considering and Binghamton was one of them. It is actually one of the oldest programs they have here in translation research. This is how I ended up coming here. My interest in languages was really strong throughout my school years and later as a student when I took on all these other languages like Polish, and even studied Swedish for a little bit. Even here at Binghamton I took a course in Yiddish, partially as a hobby, but also as a professional linguistic type of thing.

MS: With all of this background, what is it that you expect to possibly study in the future? What would be your "dream job"?

AL: I am doing my PhD in Comparative Literature right now and what I'm interested in is the interwar period in the XX century, and all kinds of writings, which are usually seen as minor literature from Eastern and Central Europe that articulate ideas of alternative modernity as opposed to Western narratives of modernity. I am using my languages to look at these literatures and I see myself teaching in the future and doing research, so I would hope to work at a university. I really enjoy academia and I think this is pretty much the path I have chosen for myself even when I was still doing a more practical kind of training. For instance while doing the Master's in interpreting I was still hoping to not just enter the professional field as a translator and interpreter, but be in academia. Being an academic also allows you to do translation if you'd like, so you can still translate literary texts, but I see that more as my side interest at the moment. I want to do more with translation than just translate texts.

SK: Before we go further, I wanted to ask you about your city. You said that national identity is a city identity for you. Why is Lviv so significant to you? Has it influenced you in choosing your career or other aspects of your life?

AL: Thank you for the question. Lviv is an interesting city because it used to be very multicultural and it still is, but not in the same way that it used to be, especially before World War II. It is one of the cities where we had one of the biggest Jewish populations back in the times of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which unfortunately disappeared for tragic historical events that we all know of, like Holocaust. Later, the remnants of the Jewish population that were still there during the Soviet times immigrated to Israel when it was established as a state. Many people immigrated to other countries as well. It is very tragic to know that history, but still at the time when I was growing up not having many Jewish communities (religious and schools). The city also has a strong sense of Polish past. Galicia was a very contested territory because there were Western Galicia and Eastern Galicia. Western Galicia is now a part of Poland, while Eastern Galicia is a part of Ukraine with Lviv being in Eastern Galicia. There were multiple claims to Lviv being a Polish city and not a Ukrainian city. There is a lot of heritage of tourism going on from Poland: many tourists coming and exploring their heritage, their roots. There were multiple wars and conflicts, so it is very hard to reconcile historical memory in that sense. Living in the city really exposes you to all of these different influence; linguistic, historical, ethnic. You grow up with a sense of history, because you can see the different architecture that dates from XIII century and different periods in architecture, so it's a good city to learn your architectural styles too. It has a very strong cultural element. For instance, we have this coffee culture. When you come to Lviv, you have a sense that you come to a city that is very much like Krakow or maybe a little bit like Prague, so it has a Western sensibility, but at the same time it finds itself in the reality of Ukraine and it's unlike many other places in Ukraine. If somebody wanted to see something that reminds them of Europe, but is not quite Europe, they would go to Lviv. That is why I think it determines me a lot as I think it would if somebody said that they are from, let's say, Donetsk or somewhere in Eastern Ukraine that place also shapes who you are and your outlook. I think this is very visible. These kinds of divisions are also visible in the recent conflict and everything that is going on in Ukraine right now. I would affirm that it is more complex than just seeing the East versus the West because there are very strong regional identities that are more pluralized than just this dichotomy of the East versus the West, which we see with places like Odessa. It is a port city near the Black Sea, it is in the South and it is close to Crimea, the territory that was contested. Odessa is predominantly a Russian-speaking region with a very strong Jewish sensibility as well. Their sympathies do not necessarily lie with the sympathies of people in Western Ukraine, but neither do they lie with Russia that easily. I guess what I'm trying to say is that all these regional identities influence the larger picture.

MS: Yes, most of the time people just think that there is the East and the West and they are fighting against each other, but it is very important to remember that there are many more ideological groups involved.

SK: Yes, absolutely. You also just mentioned something about Lvivian culture. Could you expand a little bit and tell us something interesting about it?

AL: Yes, something interesting-- I haven't been to Lviv for three years now, but I am going to go this summer, which I think will be interesting for me to see all the new things that emerged when I was not there. Now there is this move in placing Lviv on the map of the world in terms of tourism and global capital flows, in a way, because it is not a city that is as well known as Prague, for instance. In Prague tourists are already capitalized upon in such a great way: you have all these souvenirs, places you have to visit, things you have to see and try, and they are "commodified". In Lviv now they are also trying to do the same; trying to develop tourism and infrastructure to a large extent. I mentioned the coffee culture, and indeed the city is trying to capitalize on its multicultural heritage. There would be this Jewish restaurant where you would have to bargain for the price of the food that you are getting. Or there would be this café that is seemingly a café of free masons where you would have codes of initiation. Or there would be a café dedicated to masochism where you could get whipped by the waiter if you liked, because, you know, the writer Masoch (Leopold Ritter von Sacher-Masoch, 1836 --1895) was born in Lviv. It changed from the places that were authentic to the tourist attractions, which of course every city in Europe capitalizes on. Like, where do you go in Paris to find "real" Paris and not "tourist" Paris? So I see this move to a large extent in Lviv.

SK: Do you like it?

AL: I think it's problematic in many ways. It does draw people in and there's more interest, but it is a part of the global market culture, which is problematic. You get places like American restaurants, which are everywhere else in the world. Therefore, a little bit of authenticity is lost there.

MS: You said you haven't been to Lviv in three years now. How did your relocation affect your family? And what do you miss most about home when you are here?

AL: I think largely what you miss once you move from a place is that of course the kinds of ties, meaning family ties and relationships that you've had there, in a way they go to the background, because it is very hard to keep these relationships when you are not physically there. It's hard but at the same time you move here and you have a circle of friends that you are creating for yourself. While there you have all these family ties that are in the way you haven't chosen, they were imposed on you. You have to communicate with your extended family but also in here you don't have to go to family events. Instead, you pursue these elective affinities and ties with your friends here who do come from both upstate New York and from other countries in the world, you have friends from Tunis or Hong Kong, and different places. You think on the personal and interpersonal level, that's the major change and there is also for preparing for going back after three years and seeing things differently where there is culture shock when you come here. There is also the reverse culture shock that happens after sometime abroad.

SK: We are all international student so we know about that story.

MS: Yeah.

AL: So you guys also go back and forth.

SK: Yeah, I have been here like two years and I will go back in Korea during the summer. Speaking of which, have you experience that you have to compromise in a way in terms of your culture since you are live in America currently? I personally, in Korea, when you have to say hello to older people, like your professor, you have to bow to them. Here, I have to stop myself because professors here are not use to it. [All laugh]

AL: You also notice these things about yourself that you become Americanized in certain ways! Yes, It happened. So for instance, what I found about American culture is definitely more informal. In terms of relationships you have. The relationships at the workplace or at a university there are levels of formality, Ukraine and Russia, too, and it is different how the students treat the professors. To have the versions of the pronoun you is honorific and you in the plural that you address to the professor or anyone who is older than you or has a higher social standing. No distinction here but I couldn't call my professor by their first name for the first year at least [in America]. I am still more formal when I talk to professors than my American peers just because of the cultural difference.

MS: So when you came here first did you encounter any stereotypes about your culture or have you had any stereotypes that disappeared or like otherwise strengthened as you came here?

AL: Stereotypes about America you mean?

MS: Yeah and otherwise or Americans about you?

AL: Okay. When I was looking at Binghamton as a university, I only see the university itself, nothing others. However, if you guys might not notice about but Johnson City is a huge eastern European community which something surprised me that there are communities like Ukrainians, Russians, Polish, Slavs and etc. in Binghamton! Diasporas there has to be some sort of center around which you structure your community life. You can see even when you driving in Clinton St, for instance, you see all these so many of eastern churches specifically on every block. There is Ukrainian restaurant here, so there's a little bit of Ukrainian culture present in this town. I don't necessary interact with diaspora as much and I think its for all kinds of reasons. Once you live in the diaspora, I think my encounters especially from with me and some of the Ukrainian diasporans in New York City. In the diaspora, they always try to prove to you as someone who is actually coming from Ukraine that they are more Ukrainian than you are and that usually means like you are sticking to traditions in terms of the food that they eat wearing traditional clothes they even one person ask me if I still speak Ukrainian and they try to make me. So, I went into this shop in east village. There is Ukrainian community and I went into this store where they sold all kinds of meats and the owner of the store, I think maybe he is the fourth generation. He actually asked me if I read and write in Ukrainian and he made me read something in Ukrainian which was very strange. So, with the diaspora the way they project certain kind of identity it's you have to say well you know I don't necessary have the same preferences because diaspora identity already incorporates with some sort of stereotypes about the kind of religion or the kinds of food and things like that. Which are of course the kinds of food and the kinds of attractions within the community that also become Americanized so it is a little strange once you only come to states and you see Ukrainians diaspora here. You come from Ukraine there is obvious differences. And they think there is. In the diaspora, sort of distrust, I don't know how to explain it, the diaspora try to say that they are Ukrainian although they are not in many ways. Being part of the academic community you are not necessarily. I didn't encounter as much stereotypes people would not ask me, "You are from Ukraine"--. I don't know they wouldn't invoke a certain type of stereotype when trying to find of course they wouldn't ask me how is over there and I think they ask me more now other than what happens in Ukraine other than and limited knowledge I can also perceive through media coverage and also talking to friends there, but still there is a media account. As for the stereotypes that I have for Americans-- I don't have strong stereotypes about Americans. I can think of right now-- I am--

SK: How about just different characters, culture or different habits between America and Ukraine? Did you find out while you studied in here? For instance, Asian said American are too open compare to Asian culture--

AL: I didn't have a stereotypes that they were too opened, but I think there is definitely the way the people Americans relate to others is very different than I relate to people. So for instance, in general, I can't call my friend to anyone. But I feel like-- in America, where people are just acquaintances they "oh this is my friend" and for me as a Slavs, I have six friends that I know for ten years that be able to call them friends. So I guess, there are enjoyable differences between Ukraine and America.

MS: So onto the next questions, the news in US, I don't know if I mention it yet, but I am from Moscow and for instance whenever I talk to my parents or my friends and I tell them about the news I hear they tell me that is drastically different from what they hear on the news from so for instance like, If I watch CNN or what main channels that we have here is different to what is heard back at home. Is that similar for you have you encountered stuff like that?

AL: Yes. Are you referring to the coverage of the current crisis?

MS: Yeah.

AL: Current Crisis--.definitely-- I am try to get my news from variety of sources. I would watch Ukraine channels. You can't get a lot channels in TV, but we have online stream. Or I watch and read some Russian news but also I get some news from western European sources from Austria and Germany. Because I found western European covered over the conflicts better than America Medias. In America, there is very reputable sources, mainstream, such as New York Times which you would guess that they are unlimited coverage. However, they are sometimes too dramatic. For instance, current the downing of the airplane, you know that happened in--

SK: In Germany?

AL: Yes, exactly. Things like that. You would get these kinds of events but not others. That is very disconnected because of opinion pieces and there are political bias that are influenced by political divisions in this country. The more conservation pieces versus the more progressives. Something like that. I find that interesting and that's why I'm trying to follow informal channels of communication through talk to my friends in Ukraine and also in Russia or any other countries. Because you have to be very proactive and seeking out to get this information.

SK: That is so true!  Since we're talking about media representations, did you remember any description of Ukraine in American media that interests you? Or vice versa--

AL: That interests me-- yes, I want to talk about--What I notice in American media, their interests in trying to explain where Ukraine is or why does it find itself in current conflict. Therefore, in media, there is articles written about the current crisis with a lot of references to history or a lot of tracings of how the Ukrainian map used to look in different times. I recently read this article in Washington Post where it was trying to explain different territories that Ukraine used to occupy in the nineteenth century from the empires that Russian Empire and then Austro-Hungarian Empire, and you know like the Poland occupied history. And later the USSR added Ukraine in 1954 and then now it partially part of Russia again. I find that many of the articles are much more sensitive to explaining that kind of historical and cultural knowledge just because you need to gather understand before you are able to? I think they judges what is happened. If especially someone who were not even expert of Ukraine history or east European history or Russian history, it would be really difficult to do so.  So definitely notice that. I follow publication, I really like N+1 magazines. They actually had a very nice articles talked by Keith Gessen. I believe that this journalist come from Moscow, his parents were come from Moscow, but they all immigrants to United States. He talks about Putin Russia and Ukraine current crisis and he's trying to explain it. Obviously, his perspective is related to immigrants' eyes and someone who has the Russian background as well. So, he's trying to make some balance what people think Russia and the current conflicts in Ukraine which was a good talk. So, yes, I read a lot of articles from N+1 and also magazines such as Jordan Russian Center. I visit this website frequently and I found that they have some pretty good articles and analytical information about Ukraine conflict. As I said, if you trying to find it, you can find decent article in here, too. However, you 'have' to seek it out.

SK: If my understanding was right, it was happened to me, too. If I want to know something deep information about current issues in Korea, I am searching Korean journals along with American Medias. Because when it comes to Korea related issues, Korean journals have more amount of information-- more importantly, they have better explanation mostly, because they understand and know much well about situation.

AL: Yes, exactly. Yes.

MS: So I got one last question, with all of these influences you had in your life, and especially lived in Lviv and Polish and any other Eastern European experiences, and you move into America and living in here. How do you identify yourself? What are you more? Like Ukrainian, or Polish--

SK: Maybe Lvivian?

MS: Doing in a percentage way, what would you be?

AL: That's a very difficult question. Because I think that moving into different place, definitely, messing with you in certain ways. I wouldn't say that. I did not choose to move into America. I am not an immigrant. I can't say I am not Ukrainian-American. I am not a second generation of immigrant family. That's not my identity. I am just a Ph.D. student who studying in America. You know, I have this displace identity. For instance, I don't necessarily see myself who only have to working in Ukraine. I like to keep that open for me. Once, I get my Ph.D. I am considering maybe going and working in Central European University in Budapest, Hungary because they have a really good program. I love to work in such place like that. Or I wouldn't mind to working in Poland and teaching there. Of course, I would say that I am Ukrainian. But when I'm saying that I am Ukrainian, it doesn't explain something. For me, it doesn't really determine that kind of-- how should I put it. I am struggling how to say this right-- Let's say, it doesn't define my political sympathy. Let's say, when I say that I am Ukrainian, I am not saying that I am "Ukrainian" in a very nationalistic way. Because, personally, I don't identify myself who is a patriotic and nationalistic person in that way. Whenever somebody wants to speak in Russian to me, I would never say, I am not going to speak to you because I am Ukrainian. So, yes, I am a Ukrainian. But--.

MK: Yes, but not the strong kind of..

AL: Yes. Actually I never was. This emerging of nationalistic, far-right wing policy-- this emphasizing national proud thing-- kind of scared and warn me. Because I would see that this kind of nationalistic souvenirs like t-shirts with Ukraine flags or anything could appealing Ukraine's. It is something I would expect to happen in this states, because you commonly fetishize your identity a lot in diaspora society. Anyways, I was never identify myself with them. My parents never emphasized those sayings that you have to proud of your country. Once I see that, I can explain, the rise of nationalism. You know, of course, those conflicts people made antagonized to certain extends, but it does seem a little foreign to me.

MS: Do you think it wouldn't be different if you were still there?

AL: Well, I mean obviously, if you are in the middle of conflicts, you will be more tangled. And those conception of news will be on much bigger and larger basis than what you are hear in here. You don't have to experience the war under level of--. People have to see that soldiers and soldiers are dead and buried-- and the large number of refugees. This is not something what I see on the daily basis. So it is hard for me to tell how I would react in that situation. But I have my own strong opinion about something that I dislike and like toward to Ukrainian at this moment. For instance, it pains me to see that in my city there were many people who wear opposing side to refugees who have been in Eastern Ukraine and starts the moving. They were moving to western Ukraine but also to Russia and any other countries. And many people who wear engaging with other and displace people, people saying that 'oh, you don't have a job.' Why do they have to move here, and take our job, we don't have enough housing, and they change a city a lot that kind of thing. That kind of fear-- it is really hard to move and trying to understand other person and where they come from and what they are bring. I have privilege to looking at that of perspectives as an outsider. I am not saying that it makes me more objectives perspectives. But I see discontents. I'm seeing things in this very reductive way.

SK:  I see-- but you said you will go back to Ukraine in this summer and your family have been lived there. Therefore, about the current or any past conflicts, could it be a personal as well to you--.perhaps?

AL: First, how my family was affected by conflicts--yes, they were affected it to economic situation. You know, Ukraine economic is in really bad shape, right now. And the currency rate is horrible. For instance, when I left there, you can change the Hryvnia, Ukraine currency, to US Dollar in 80 Hryvnia to 1 Dollar. And there were a part time of conflict to recently where it reached to 30 hryvnia to 1 dollar which was really dramatic. You can see the price rise of daily basic goods as well. I think that's how my family is affected because they have no money for that much. They hasn't been that place long-- And also we have no experiences like some member of our family were killed. And also they lived in western Ukraine which is relatively a shelter from the conflicts of Ukraine. So, they mostly not see that in person. They could see in media, but they are not experienced that themselves. So, I would say that I would not need to expose to violence.

SK: So, there are several scenery in current Ukraine besides the physical violence aspects.

AL: Yes.

SK: Thank you. I guess that was our last question. Because now we already reached the 1 hour--

MS: Yes, I believe so. Thank you so much sharing. It was really productive.

SK:  It was!

MS: Thank you for your time and efforts--

SK: --and good luck with the last of your semester.

AL: Thank you.

(End of Interview)