Ann B. Czebiniak

Ukrainian Oral History Project

Interview with: Ann B. Czebiniak

Interviewed by: Briana Comuniello and Drew Tenbus

Transcriber: Briana Comuniello and Drew Tenbus

Date of interview: 10 April 2016 at 10:15:00 AM

Interview Setting: Sacred Heart Ukrainian Catholic Church, Johnson City, NY

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(Start of Interview)

Briana Comuniello: Alright, so good morning.

Ann Czebiniak: Morning.

BC: We will be doing an hour interview with you today. Umm, just to start off, can you state your full name and maybe a little bit about yourself?

AC: Uhh, my name is Ann Czebiniak and I am one of uhh eleven children. Two of my sisters died before I was uhh born and right now there's only my one sister and a brother. All the rest of them are gone.

BC and Drew Tenbus: Wow

AC: So, and as I say, I was born in America, and in fact it's only, not far away from where we are up on the hill. I was born there, and I went to catholic school. I went twelve years. Uhh, St. Stanislav which no longer is here and then I moved to Saint Patrick's for twelve years on that and they were taught by the nuns both and they were very strict, and they were good, excellent teachers, and they were very good. And when I started, my first job was in a grocery store, and then one day at the clothes store I was fortunate, I got a job when I worked in IBM, I retired.

BC: Oh wow, that's very interesting

AC: So, I was very fortunate

DT: What did you do at IBM?

AC: Oh, I used to work for engineering and I was not an engineer but thank god for a lot of brothers, they were electricians, everything and all electrical things I understood, so I used to, uhh when computers first came out, those big things on there, we were the ones that, I was the one that they failed, I was the one that had to find out why they failed.

BC and DT: Ahh!

AC: That was my job. So, I, it was very good, and then it was very, and as I say the engineers were good but they only had everything on paper.

AC: Paperwork

DT: Before paperwork

AC: But I grew up with it. My brothers did those things, so I knew, I understood, electricity was easier for me to find the defects. And I was very, very, I was very fortunate at IBM, they used all my talents that I had. I have to say. It was very, very profitable and I'm grateful for that.

BC: That's amazing. Umm, do you wanna talk about, uhh your parents? You said they came here--

AC: Well, you ask the questions. Well, what do you want to hear?

BC: Yah, we'll take it back a little bit. Uhh, your parents are from Ukraine?

AC: No, they were from Poland.

BC: Oh ok.

AC: Let me explain that. They originally under Franz Josef and that was Austria and when they had the Austrian divide the section where they lived ended up in the Polish area.

DT: Ok.

AC: So, they originally and when I was visit in uhh 1985, I went to visit the village my parents came from and they still, uhh there was a Ukrainian church that-- a Ukrainian church there.

AC: So, that's how we got from Poland. 

BC: That's interesting. Umm, when did your parents come here?

AC: Uhh, I started to tell you before. My dad came here in 1905. My dad was born in 1880. And he came here on a work visa in 1905. He worked for five years and my aunt came. My, there was only two of them- there was three but my uncle died, and my aunt came with my dad but she got sick over here and she went back and died. But my dad was here for five years and he worked partly on, in EJs (Endicott-Johnson) that they long time ago on there, they worked things.

DT: Oh ok.

AC: So, originally, he started to work on the trains with the trains but then he got a job in EJs and that's where he was. After five years he went back to uhh Europe, you know, and he got married and my oldest brother which is Adrianna's great grandfather (referring to her great-great niece who was also being interviewed on the other side of the room) was born there. And he was only like four, five months when they had, and my dad decided we bought property and no money because in the area where there was, you know, just farming you don't, so my dad came to the United States in 1914 and it was late part of 1914 just before World War I. He got here WWI broke out and my dad was in America here and my mother was in Poland and for four years it was illegal, you could not even write letters. They had no idea anything about each other. So, after the war was over, they communicated, and my dad was, he paid the property, you know. My mother was very smart and- not smart, wise and she figured that if my dad could make a living in America and pay half the property there, things are better here than they are there. And other thing that my mother did not like is that after the war things got political and unfortunately that the Catholic Church in Poland, the Ukrainian Catholic Church was pulling. My mother used to call them- didn't call them Russians, they called them Muscovites so they're going towards Russia and my mother didn't like that so that was one of the other reasons why she came to this country. So, they got here, and they, my dad, he built a property that's for all but my two brothers that were my oldest brother and my other brother, we were all born there. All of us. All 8, 9 of us. So, and I say that my dad got sick and he was truck farming and then my oldest brother, I says my oldest brother Mike, that's his name, he was very smart. Not knowing the language at all when they came here to America, they started a Catholic School St. Stanislav and that was just beginning on there and he went to school, and he was six years old when he came here but he was so smart that he skipped to grades in school.

BC AND DT: Wow.

AC: He was very, too bad he couldn't finish like, go on to college and that he could've had, at that time there was things, but he finished and then he got job. He had job as a meat cutter and that at that time meat cutters were making more money than the factory people, so he was the one that helped my dad to raise the farm, the family on there. So, until we got old enough to you know, the older ones came and we all had our turn to keep our mother and father, we had to do our turn for. And the fact that I was the last one I kept the house up and all and I supported them until they died.

BC: Wow. How was it growing up with such a big family?

AC: Excellent. You know what, you don't, if you have a problem, there's always someone to ask and in a big family, no matter what your problem is you're gonna find somebody who's had that problem. And that is big because you don't have to decide on yourself, you can make a judgement on what they lived through.  I found it very beneficial and I (stutters) now I miss them because I used to depend on the brothers and all because, and they're gone. And I say five of my brothers are, they're gone you know. And they did a lot, and we were a very close family. As you see over here, family's all together.

DT: (Laughing) Everyone's still here (referring to Ann's extended family who came to church with her).

AC: So, I say, we enjoyed family life and it was very good on there. When we uhh, this was just before World War II, my brother, oldest brother, he bought a farm and the reason why he bought the farm was that they had a little building on the corner and my brother wanted to have a little, like we had, the 9/11 little store over there. And he did have it during WWII. And then, as I say, we had chance the man that he worked for in town, the meat cutter, he had two stores, so he, my brother, has chance to buy one of the stores. 

BC AND DT: Wow.

AC: But during the war times, he couldn't work out in the store because they would've all been drafted. I have five (brothers) you know. So, what they did is that my brother worked on the farm from Monday till Friday and then Friday; Monday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday they worked in the store. My sister, my oldest sister, she was the one that took care of the store and my brother Andy also was attending, he knew how to cut meat. So, they took care that during the week. So, for that and then, and see, my oldest brother, my brother Pete, I said (stutters) four of my brothers were in the service. So, they had, they go, they all went at different times because they were younger. And then nephews, Adrianna's uncle, he was in Vietnam and I says I have, what's his name, nephews that were all, one that was in Germany, I had like six or seven nephews that were in the service, so. 

BC: Wow. Were they all from different branches or--?

AC: Yah, I have a nephew, my one brother and nephew were in the Air Force, and one nephew was in the Navy, and he was on the ship in Midway, and I have nephews, and the nephews were in different (stutters), served in the army. One of, her uncle (referring to her great-great niece) had a good job. He was in the army. He was drafted but he was drafted already after he went to college. And he had a nice job because he used to be a chauffeur for Air Force generals so that was a nice job. But I unfortunately, I lost a brother-in-law in WWII.

BC: Really?

AC: My sister Pauline, there's only three of us sisters. The two sisters died way, way back but three of my sisters that lived, and my middle sister, uhm she got married like four months before she was 18 and her husband went to war, and he was killed in the Battle of the Bulge if anybody knows that. And my sister, she has two girls, she lived with her husband only 35 days. Could you imagine?

DT: Wow!

AC: And the two times they had, as she saw, she got pregnant, and the youngest one, the youngest girl was only four months when he was killed.

BC AND DT: Oh wow!

AC: And his uncle- his brother tried, he was in the service also and tried to find out how he died but his whole outfit was killed. They were at the position where they had to keep the place because if they, that area in the Battle of the Bulge, if they gave in, it could've been, the war could've gone another way. So they had to, and they had, and it was a bad time. He died in December in 1944. So that was about the things. And I say, other brothers are very unfortunate, they were very good in the service, no problems.

BC: Were your parents, uhm happy that they joined the service or-- what was their feeling towards--?

AC: My mother and father-- I gotta tell you about my brother Andy. No, my mother, they did not, that's part because in Europe people had to go in service too. My brother Andy was in the Korean War and he went into the service and my mother prayed very, very hard that he would not go to Korea. So he was stationed in Texas and the place of demarcation was St. Louis, Fort Lewis in Washington State, so they moved my brother up to Washington State. He was supposed to go to Korea. Well, they lost his records. They lost his records for three months.

DT: (Laughing)

AC: It was in the back of the, you know drawer, in the back, and when they found that, it was already, they could not send anybody overseas unless they had (served) a year, and it was less than a year, so my brother did not go. And my mother, it was through her prayers.

DT: So, all those prayers-- (Laughs)

AC: And for that, you could talk about that, my mother made a sacrifice, that she would never have any alcoholic beverages as long as she lived, and she didn't as thank you for not brother not going in there.

BC: That's crazy!

AC: They say have faith up there or something. A lot of people have faith, you find out that a lot of people here came from Ukraine, and if you talk to every one of them, you find out that each one has a unique story and frightening. It is terrible what they went through. It's a wonder that they are mentally ok. So

DT: So, going back a little bit, both your parents are from Poland or Ukraine or around there?

AC: My mother was born in 19- 1888. They were born there. My father was all Ukrainian and my mother's great grandmother- my mother's grandmother, my great grandmother, was Polish on her mother's side. So that was a thing that they were-- And I have to tell you, it's tradition in the country that if your mother was like Polish, you are Polish, you're not another thing. My mother was baptized and everything in the eastern, in our church, but they always considered them as Polish because they're with the mother. That was-- other countries had that too. They called them Polish more than Ukrainian. 

BC: What did your parents identify as?

AC: Pardon?

BC: What did your parents identify as? Uhh, Polish, Ukrainian--?

AC: No, they were Ukrainian, they were because they on that, they had to come in on a Polish visa because if you were born in America, you know, I don't know what nationality you are, but your nationality is yours. But where you're born, that's where your country is. But they were not born there, but since they lived in there, and you get a visa, if you get to go out, if you go from America, I don't care, you (stutters) you could be Irish or whatever, you're still an American. When you're born here you're still in America. And we, as we say that, we respect our background, but we love America. We (stutters) had nothing against them. Even like my brothers' serving, all my parents, nobody had. And, my mother and father, as many times, as long as they've been here, they've never even had the desire to go back to visit. 

DT: Really?

AC: I was fortunate, I went but they (her parents) didn't. I went in 1985. It was still under communism, and the area, and I'll tell you something, you don't realize that, when, you know, we're free over here and all, but when drove into Warsaw, and you see guys on the steps with guns up there, it doesn't make you feel very comfortable. Everywhere you look there's guns and eyes and that's not what we have here.

DT: Right.

AC: So.

BC: Wow. That's very interesting.

AC: So, ask whatever, you know, you ask whatever you want.

AC: I don't know what you want to know

DT: Uhh, so what language did you speak at home?

AC: I spoke Ukrainian

DT: Ok.

AC: We all, my mother did not speak very good English, in fact, she tried to get her citizenship and she couldn't speak well enough. My dad became an American citizen.

DT: Oh, ok.

AC: He was an American citizen, on that. But they loved America.

BC: Your first language was Ukrainian?

AC: Well they spoke at home, my mother didn't speak (English), and when we went to school, in fact (stutters), I knew English because the older ones already (knew it). Because they taught in school.

BC AND DT: Oh wow.

AC: You know, they start in school in English but we at home, we had to speak our language. I hate to say it, my mother that is used to say, "Jews, are you Jews that you talk another language?" You know. 

AC: They used to pick on us, but we had at home (stutters) and actually it was an asset because when we had any kind of a problems or anything where people had to talk to my parents, I would translate. I had no problem. In fact, that one of our professors from church here many years ago asked me if I think in Ukrainian when I speak it, or do I translate it into English and I never thought about it but I have to say that for me and my brother the same thing. We don't have no difference, we think in whatever we're talking. You don't even know that we're changing thoughts in a different--We don' translate. We just know two words for the same thing.

BC: Do you dream in both languages? Have you noticed?

AC: Huh?

BC: Do you dream in both languages?

AC: Depends (coughs). Depends on what the dream is. If I dream of like my parents, and you had. And one other thing that I'll tell you that lot of people don't know, Americans, is that one time when I was working in the grocery store a lady come in that I knew but she didn't speak very good English, so I spoke to her in Ukrainian. And one of the guys who were there was telling me that they should speak English but I told him, and I'll tell you, now if you go to France and you live there for fifty years and you meet an American, you're not gonna talk to him in French, you're gonna talk to him in English because that is natural for you. To the people that you speak, talk in that language, and you, and American, I mean you speak American and all that, but people from other nationalities you're gonna find out you're gonna speak in different language. Where you, what you know, what you grew up with. 

BC AND DT: Interesting.

AC: And you don't think that but I was confronted with it so I know.

BC: Have you ever been either discriminated against because of speaking a different language or anything?

AC: No.

DT: So, you felt very comfortable because there was a lot of Ukrainians here, obviously, in Binghamton?

AC: Pardon, I didn't hear you.

DT: Did you feel comfortable growing up here because, did you feel there was a lot of other Ukrainians here that it was like kind of--

AC: Uhh, it didn't matter because there was an awful lot of other people. There was Polish, Slavic, ehh Slavic people, Czechs, uhh Italians. We grew up there was an awful lot of different. It did not make (Stutters). I think that now unfortunately they make this racist, that, and we didn't even know what anything like what race has been. That was not and that thing, I think they make bigger issue now than they used to. We grew up, it didn't matter. I say, Blacks didn't matter to us.

BC: Because everyone back then was very heterogeneous?

AC: Because everybody was, most everybody was from another place, you know? What they did respect was they, I think more for what you really are. I worked, when I worked in IBM, I worked with people- the lady from Laos, lady from Korea, and she in fact, she was from the Chinese dynasty, that she was from Korea. And the only reason why got to America is because her husband worked for the army. And once the army left southern, all the people that worked for the army, they took them out because the communist would've been taken amnesty against them because they were working for the Americans. So, they were sent to either America or Australia, other countries. They would not leave them there. And she had, and (stutters) we understood each other because she was talking to other people, they didn't believe it. But in North Korea, they had all the houses bugged. You couldn't talk even in your own home. And you say something they already knew, and I only knew because they did the same thing in Ukraine, so I understood. But regular people that never was come from something like that don't understand. 

BC: Do you have any specific memories of your time working for IBM?

AC: I was very fortunate, that's all I says. I was very fortunate, I was very well-liked. They liked my work. In fact, they didn't like that I was gonna retire. In fact, I met a man that was a manager after I retired, and he asked me to go back. To go for temporary but I-- I had other things. I'm very active at church.

DT: Did you go to school to learn all about the electricity or anything?

AC: I grew up with brothers and it was natural for them. I did, although, my brother, my youngest brother was in the service and he learned electricity in the service, and he was here, he's upstairs, they're singing on that (referring to church choir upstairs during mass). He was fortunate because he was in Florida after he got out of the service and he was in a lot hot and he worked on the first missile that went up to the moon. (Stutters) because he was working on the electrical parts of that.

DT: Wow, that's crazy.

AC: He used to in the Air Force, his job was, he was named, since he was the one that fixed the planes, that take care of them. When the service. This was already-- And believe it or not, that he still is what they call it, you can't say that quarantined, that's not the word for it, you can't tell what you were doing. He can't talk about the things, even today, and he was in the service in the fifties, so you talk about, so he, the things that he did, he can't talk about. 

DT: Wow!

BC: Now you said you're very active in the church community, you went to catholic school. Did you always have a strong presence of religion in the household?

AC: I had, my parents were faiths. We had a situation with my parents because my, for my parents, religion came first, nationality comes second. And many years ago, I was real small, I don't remember. But my mother was saying, they started the Orthodox Church- Ukrainian. And they and so my relatives are there. And they wanted my mother and dad to go, and my mother and dad were Catholic, and we don't go there. And, it was so bad that they were even shooting at the house. In fact, my mother says that one time the bullet came almost, almost hit, and it was by her leg, by her foot. And they came to the house because they were-- But my parents knew that religion came first. Uhh, don't get me wrong, my mother and father were, they're very good people. They enjoyed life, they were not the ones that prayed all the time, you know.

AC: They lived life. They had a good time, they enjoyed, my dad enjoyed the holidays, and they did things happy. We enjoyed, and happiness on that. But we had certain things that we had, just like (stutters). Things are a little looser now than we did. When I was, when we were young, you, they did not use an ironing board, iron on Sunday. That was that. No washing, no nothing. We had on that, and my folks would not put up with that. No way. 

BC: Were all the stores closed on Sundays back then too?

AC: All the stores were closed on Sunday, and the only, even-- the only thing that were open is that movie theaters, you could go to the movies. There was nothing really. And long time ago, they used to visit, Sundays. We used to go visiting with the family, go visit. You just spent Sunday visiting other parts of the relatives. You became closer because everybody knew each other, and it became like one family, you know.

DT: That's nice.

AC: So, we used to go, in fact when my brothers and all lived here, we used to go from my house to the other then we have-- In fact, yesterday, we had a party. My great niece sixteenth birthday. We had a big party in the hall for her. So that's a lot of people who didn't make it to church this morning for the first one (Laughing). 

BC: That's so nice. So, would you say religion and family are tied?

AC: Very much. And one of the things that i have to say is we always had at least one meal together.

BC: That's so nice.

AC: You work all day but usually supper time you had one meal together. 

DT: So, would you say you passed on, you know, this love for religion to your own children?

AC: Pardon?

DT: Would you say religion's important with your own family and your own children and stuff?

AC: I says, I am. I say I'm very, with all the things. I have just three of them left. And my, all of them that died, they all received their last rights before they died. 

AC: So, whatever they did on there. And then I have a brother-in-law that-- I have several brothers-in-law that died on that because, I says, my, I say five-- I have sister. My sister had two husbands that, Pauline. Her first husband was killed, and she was married again, and she had six children after that, and then my sister that's in California, her husband also died. So out of the things, I have sisters-in-law, but (stutters) brothers-in-law, I don't really have any. 

BC: Did you teach Ukrainian to your own children?

AC: I have no children. I'm the only one that's not married.

BC: Oh wow!

AC: But I'm gonna tell you something. I'm glad. First of all, I was able to do things that they (her siblings) couldn't. I am very artistically inclined. And I used to do things that they couldn't and so-- In fact, the Easter eggs, I was the one that taught them in the parish how to make them. And I learned from books. I'm very good from learning-- I don't have that now, but I can, but I could, I read books I could do. I did a lot crochet. In fact, my wedding bread, my sister-in-law came to me. She wanted a wedding bread for my niece, for her daughter. I never seen one. She brought me pictures and I, God gave me a gift that I was able to do those kinds of things. But I have, I had forty-two nieces and nephews, and I only have one nephew and one niece that died. All the rest of them of them are living. That's not counting great and great-great. She's a great-great already. And I don't even know how many great-greats that I have because there's so many. 

BC: God Bless. Do you have any family back in Europe or--

AC: Yes.

BC: Ok.

AC: Yes, there's cousins over there, on, right there. And then I have some cousins that are in Ukraine because they were kicked out of Poland during WWII, that they ended up in Ukraine. And we had a special privilege. Uhh, my brother, my oldest brother in, and there was seven of us that went. My nephew's wife's sister was getting married and they were in Poland, so he went with his two children, my sister-in-law and my brother, the parents, and I went. We went to the wedding over there, on there. So, as I say that, uhh, it was a very privileged to see this was during, I told you during the communist times on there. And we find out (coughs) the difference in the families in all that we were very grateful on that. See how people live there. And I says I, they were shown things that were different from what they had. We were very fortunate because they already at that time had, like a, bathrooms. They had bathrooms in the house. They had bottled gas, which was on the stoves. The only thing they had were the outhouses and the worst part that we had is that where we stayed, they, the wedding was, they had to hire a cook to do that. He was cooking right next to a whole pile of manure (Stutters). And working in the grove, and they had a make-shift kitchen. Between the barn and the house. It was-- things out. And I got-- I don't have the pictures now, my nephews got it. I took pictures in there and the one wall was so full of flies that you would, you would think that it was pepper. I'm not exaggerating. 

BC: Wow!

AC: And what they did which we didn't like is that they used to make soup, but they didn't bring it in a pot to the house. They brought it in their bowls, two flies in that one, one fly in that one (Laughs). They brought them in there. I had a difficult time on that. And the water, as I said, the part with the water-- We couldn't use the water because the water was from the wells that right next to-- they had manure piles and that all went down. They- you know what, we don't appreciate the laws we have in this country. 

DT: Yeah.

AC: Because you can't have uhh pump, a water pump next, water by the well, by uhh well there's things, you know, there's any kind of, all those you have to be so far away. We didn't appreciate until we went there. And then in the towns it was worse, don't forget. I worked in a grocery store. Everything was, you know, things you have to be very careful. You come over there to store, they have the doors wide open and then there's a table, like a double stand. They had beef there, pork there, everything. The same flies that visited the privy visit the food. And I had a very difficult time with that because, I gotta say, because I grew up, we had beef, you know, clean. In America, we're very fortunate for that.

DT: Mhmm, wow!

BC: Have any of your relatives come to America?

AC: Oh! I started to tell you when we came back from America I have a cousin that was here, he died already but he was going because that's my mothers, my mother's son, my mother's sister's son and he was going back to the village where we were. So, he called my brother up, my brother mike, and he asked if we wanted to give money. So we went through the list of all the people that we met down there, and we made a list get money both my brother and I went together and he gave it to the people, then he got a letter back and they did a very nice thing cause they sent that money with an invitation to all the relatives that they had in there, in Ukraine because they didn't have back and forth all the time so they did not see those relatives, that means first cousins and all, they didn't see them since World War II. SO that money we were very grateful that they used to get the family together. That was the first time that they've seen it. We felt very good for that.

BC: That's amazing! Nice happy ending.

DT: So what year exactly we're you born?

AC: I was born in 1933. My oldest brother was born in 1913 so 20 years difference. Almost, we're only a couple of weeks apart. He was born November 16 and I was born December 7th.

DT: Wait so your dad came in 1914 you said.

AC: Pardon?

DT: Your dad came in 1914 you said?

AC: Yeah, the second time yeah.

DT: So, was your brother born in Ukraine?

AC: Yeah, he was four months old. See that's right. And my dad did not take my mother he wouldn't take my mother. First time he came here he was like a year almost without a job we had relatives here that said I used to wash dishes and stuff like that but for him to get a job he was afraid to bring family on that to come here. So that was why he came back the second time and that's my dad. But my mother had house was there my aunt the one that we went to when we went back to Poland and we saw my mother's sister that was the last one of the relatives we went to see her and she lived in that house where my dad was, but right on the hill my mother she had her own house so she lived with my mother while my dad was married to her.

BC: Now, would you say your parents identify themselves more as Americans?

AC: They never have, they considered them, I was considered themselves, yes but they had respect. Let me explain another way. You're born in America and you live here for 20 years just an example. So, when you move to France you're not going to talk about childhood in France because you didn't live it there, so you have to live it where you were born. So, they talk about old things, but because they were born there, and they think of it, but as for that I told you that they had no desire to go even and visit. They liked America. Very, very, very content here.

DT: Do you have any interesting stories from Ukraine that you remember?

AC: I Umm I have to think about for that--Well I will say that I find that the people and we went, and this was in Poland when we went there, my sister in law had two sisters that were in Ukraine.

DT: Ok.

AC: My, her great grandmother was born in America here in in in Oliver that's by Scranton. And when she was 3 years old, her parents moved back to Europe. So, when she was there she was there until she was 19 and then she came to America she was American born she had no problems on that. The part is it that she already she had difficulty in American language and my brother was born there but he had better in the English language. But things were kind of bad, she had 2 sisters in Ukraine and she did not when we were there did not there go to Ukraine because it was still under communism this was before this was 1985 before communism broke

DT: Right.

AC: And we had 2 children with us and my nephew's wife was from there. She just got her uhh papers that she was American they call it the card that she's American citizen which she's American citizen now. She got her citizen thing, but we got the papers on Friday, and we had to make the decision on Monday that we are going because we had to make the you know your plane reservations and all? And I say that we didn't there go because she was afraid that if we went visit and they're not gonna start world war 3 again you know for something like that. It was scary and one of the things we had people were kind of livery of Americans over there at the wedding. But on the last night that we were there we all, they had people there must have been like 15/20 people that came to the house where we were, that was strange of all. One of them was my sister in laws half-uncle and he was in prison for 10 years for things that were going on and they were talking about things how it was bad over there and they told it on the last day because they knew that nobody would hear it because the next day we are leaving because you know what we went one of my, my, my, my nephews wife's god parents were there and they owned the bakery.

DT: Ok.

AC: And they asked us not, we spoke, when we were there, when we were in public, we spoke only English. And she asked us not to speak in Ukrainian in there because they're gonna take reprises on that because they were Ukrainian you had.

DT: Wow!

AC: Yes, it was bad, it was bad on that. My mother says that before 1918 the Ukrainians and the polish people got real got along good. They used to celebrate according to Christmas according to the Julian calendar. So, they used to come to ours and on the 25th ours used to go back and the intermarriages you know there was no problem. But once world WWI came, then politics came in. And see and politics that come in and that's when the trouble start. Ukrainians had it very bad in Poland at that time. They're not that now, they're better now, but at that time under communism it was bad. You could not admit that you were Ukrainian. You had to speak, and they had a say at just how bad it was there was a Ukrainian church and it wasn't even catholic, it was orthodox and my nephew's sister in law was getting married. And she was getting married in a church there. But they had to go in because they used to use it as a barn they had all the things, they had to clean everything out, they did not let us have any electricity or anything while were having the marriage. So, you're talking how bad things were, you had to be very careful on that. And when we went to visit my sister in laws 2 aunts, we went to visit one and uhh her son in law was polish, and he didn't know that we understood Polish, so he was coming in saying "What are they doing over her? What do they want here?" and all that. And after we stayed a while they found out that we are relatives and we that's not the way we are changed attitude but they're and it was afraid, you could not do on the street on that thing and a lot of stuff this food was bad, and everything was on the black market you know, you had to get things on there. And if you wanted to go we were, the bride, that was a funny part there. Bride and groom get married in America you go on a honeymoon, right? Not there. They drove us all around Poland visiting everybody, he had a van and his job he was a mechanic but they he lived now came to America but hat another story I have to tell you. They're in America now and they're in -- can't think-- in Tennessee I think it is my nephew's sister in law she's a professor, she teaches Russian in a college and he is a mechanic, but he has but he has the thing that most expensive cars what are they? I can't think of the name.

BC: A sports car?

AC: Pardon?

BC: Like a sports car?

AC: The name of it the real car that they have, he was the one that works on them because that's what he did over there, he was a mechanic, so he got a good job. But how they got to America. Things were very bad, they went on a tour, and they went visiting another country and they did not stay they did not go back with the filler they went to Germany and they were on a thing, and they didn't know for 2 weeks they didn't know how they were gonna get because they had to find out to get away they had to go underground to get things, my nephew sent money that they were able to get but they had 2 weeks where it was very bad, they didn't think they were gonna live. But they had to sneak out of the country because they didn't allow going to America.

DT: Wow!

BC: That's so crazy!

AC: Well you can't believe it unless you live it. I said that I find going there has made a complete different opinion of what I thought it was. My parent's-- oh, funny thing. We went there, and my dad used to talk about a beer garden. They talk about it, so we came over there and we saw that beer garden; it looks like an American outhouse. It was so small! I said you wouldn't think it was, so you think something, and you picture, and it was completely different. I'm fortunate that we went to see the places that my parents used to talk about. We were next to it, we had a bad thing happen to us when we were in Poland is because my friends don't live too far away from the San River. And we were going to see some relatives on the other side and there, very few places have bridges only in the big towns, and they have these floats that you drive on, and they wait on there and the drive you over on your car and everything, they pull you over on the other side so you can go. That's most places how you cross. Yeah! You don't know.

BC: Is it like a ferry?

DT: For one car?

AC: Flat thing and you have that floats, wood on that, so you have on there. And what was bad, it was very dry that year in Poland and one of the guys that was swimming near this nest thing, he tried to go underneath the thing while we we're going on and he didn't make it out, he drowned. So, we went to visit the relatives, we came back, and we couldn't use it because they had it closed off. And I hate to say it; his body was still there on the side because we had to go like 15/20 miles down on a bridge to go across on that. So those were the things on there. When we went what was an interesting part since you are catholic it will be interesting, there was a miraculous church, the first one, a Ukrainian church that was built in Poland, and it was, and my sister in law lived not too far away from there and we went there, and you couldn't believe. You think this hill is bad? I have a heck of a time walking. You can't drive up there, I had a stick we were all walking and the beautiful church there, there were no services at the time there, and on that. And they had one of the, we have icons in the church as you see. And one of the icons in the altar was missing, and they said that when the icon comes back, that the church will reopen. Well that church now is reopened but it is the oldest church in Ukraine.

DT: Wow!

AC: And what happened during WWII, that church used to have a copper roof on it, and when the Germans came, they wanted the roof, copper. So, they asked some of the villagers, thinking nobody would but they got somebody from another village, a couple of guys on there to take the roof off. Well, they start taking the roof off, and they died. Not only did they die, but their families did too. So, they got written in a thing on that, and they went into the cornerstone of that, what was written in there. The government had to go and replace the roof because it was in the thing that they couldn't touch that. I'm not telling you, but I knew the people that it happened to you know, you go there. So, things used to happen like you don't really realize, on that. But the church was beautiful, icons. Would you believe I took pictures and I wish I could show you because I have a lot of pictures, but they had icons on all the frescos, and they're still there. And they were good enough that I was able to take pictures on that. They had no lighting in the church or anything. But in the dark, no sunlight or whatever it was up on the hill, in the woods like, beautiful place where it was on that. But that was I think the most interesting thing we were able to go see.

BC: Can you speak a little bit about the church here? You said you were one of the oldest members--

AC: Ok then--We belong to a church which now is Holy Spirit, part of it. Well, got to go further. A bad thing happened. We came to America and my dad came the first time, they were blessing St. Michaels over the church -- it's still there. But, they built the church in 1904. We had no eastern right bishops in America, so the attorneys didn't know how to legalize it. So, what they did is they made it a corporation; president, secretary, and treasurer had to be in church. So, they had it ok on that. But see, in that church it was not only Ukrainians, it was mostly Ukrainians and then there was Ruthenians, like Holy Spirit. They had the same liturgy we had, but their customs-- that's just like English, England and America they're different. So, we wanted our own on that. So, what happened is that after WWII, after WWI, Russia started having communism, and they started having influence and some of the people, especially the ones that were Ruthenians, they were for the Russians. So, what happened is that they had an election of the new officers for the church, they got there people, and they had a filibuster. The Sunday after that, they talked and talked until the people got sick and they went home, and then they elected their own people into that. So then they confronted the priests and they wanted to do things their way and the priests could not accept it that way, so they took them to court. So, just one step backwards. In 1905, the first bishop, eastern right came to United States. His name was Ortynsky (Stehen Soter Ortynsku), he was Ukrainian. He blessed the church, everything, it was legally everything complete. But, when they went to court, because it was under laws of corporation, they lost. So that's why that church, I was baptized there on that. In 1939, and my mother said it was a very sad day because when they lost they had to, there's a little building on the corner of Glenwood avenue and --Downs avenue. It was a building, it was like a cellar and my mother says that they had a precession with the communion from St. Michaels. I'd say it's about 10 blocks, they preceded it to that church. So we had the two churches together. So during, this was 1939, it must have been like 1941 I think around there. We had a mission in that church, but the mission that we were given were Brazilian fathers, which was Ukrainian. So they had it and we had a man that used to be a letter writer. He used to write to the bishop everywhere he went, we wanted the Ukrainian church here. So when they came in for the mission, he talked to them, and they said "well we're gonna look into that." So, in 1944, and I remember the date it was in September of 1944, he came to my brother's house. Now, mind you during the war, my entire family lived up to my brother's house. My brother had house, in fact that she lives in there (referring to her great-grandniece that was also getting interviewed at the time) has twenty-two rooms!

Both: Wow!

AC: It's a grid so nineteen of us lived there. So the priest, he came with the priest and he said that we have a priest, we have a church, and this is our pastor. And what got me is that when he spoke, he spoke the same way we did in the house. It was not dialect on that. So we had a protestant church that they bought in the hall that they bought that they had on there. And as I say, we going on, and after the war there was not that many, like sixty families to start with, but then when WWII was over, the people started coming, this was the only Catholic Ukrainian church in the area so they came here. We have in fact an awful lot of people who are from Europe-- even the younger ones, I mean they got remarried but they were from Ukraine. So, it was around 1970 we already had enough money to start building the church. I remember in the old church they used to, in fact the fathers got the architectural sketch and what the church is supposed to look like. So it was as you entered it that church was there for five years. So it came time that we had enough money we're gonna build a church--can't build it. Because there was a steel crunch. No can build, everything was all steel. So, they're making they had the church committee, in fact and my brother was one of them that was on the church committee on the building committee so they going "what should we do?" So one of the other men that was on the committee says "well how about a wooden church?" So that's the alternative. So, I went I was one of them that went to Glen Spay, they're a small church there's hunter, there's two churches that were wooden. So my brother, my oldest brother Mike he used to work for a lumber company and he wanted to go and see a church because he wanted to find out what are the problems of a wooden church you know? You don't know. So we come in there and we were very impressed and they --we had to find an architect that was from Europe, and we had his name was Osadca (Apollinaire Osadca, (1916 -- 1997), Ukrainian-American architect) and he come in there and we had a, I can't remember all of the names of the architects and all that that worked with that but he had he drew the plans and then, the inside of the church we had local guy that had--local umm what's the name, builder that had people that were crafty they were specialists and things, in fact they didn't even belong to the union and the union could not do anything because they didn't have the workers that could do this kind of work. So they got the things on there, and then we had one man that was from Europe that built the inside, the icons, the screen and all he was sick, and in that he built the icon screen for that, so we were very fortunate. But if he did not--there never was a steel crunch in the United States as I remember and it never--since before then or since then, but it was just at that time. And if it was not for that, our church would not have been here, this would not been here. So it was like a--the church, god wanted our church here. And we've had people here from all over the world we have a ledger in church and it's not very big but this is already like the second one they had from that place and our church opened in November of 1977. A strange part about our church is that our church started in 1944, this one was built in 1977, and our hall was built in 1988 so it seems that the double numbers are all for our church on that.

BC: Maybe it worked out for the best because this church is very beautiful.

AC: We're very happy on it. When I remember they were building the Orthodox Church, its down I don't know if you could see it you can see it if you go down the street this way. When I went there inside naturally we went to see it because it was Ukrainian of course you'll go see it. And I was thinking "boy, we could not, we could never get anything that would be nicer than that." And turns out, that we got the thing, and our church has been on television, and newspapers you name it, all over the world if you'd have that. We've had people come down here in fact, one day I came in because I was working in the church I used to, when I was young do a lot of cleaning and stuff that was you know a job. Came in and a guys out here and I said "What are you doing here?" he says he was from Ohio and he wanted to ask if he could see the inside of the church. He says well I'm looking into, we want to build a wooden church he'd like to see the church. So people all over are very interested. And as I say they've been from all countries, you can't believe the countries that we've had, people that come to visit us.

BC: Maybe you're starting a trend!

AC: Well you know what well the first 15 years when the church was thing, they used to have busloads. My sister lived down the street and anytime they used to go down there and my brother in law had to open the church if father wasn't here to open the church for them to see. But we had busloads of people that came to see the church.

BC: That's impressive! Now umm I see there's a lot of umm decorations around here so it's not just the church services that bring people together there's more parts of it?

AC: Well, we have where the project is that we're active, we have dancers. So they have on that, so they have -- all the traditions. Our weddings are traditional I says that on that things on there. So everything is on and they are, and we have to work, we are very fortunate because one of our pastors went to Florida church and they said they had Friday dinners. So he came up here and festivals, not festivals, bazaars. So he came up, and that's when we started, we started to have making, first it was only the pierogis on that they sold. And then he got Friday dinners, and we in fact we just had the festival was just-- day before Palm Sunday the day before and on that. We made very very good, we wouldn't be able to keep the church without that, God's very good to us because we're making very good money to be able to upkeep. We can't--we had to replace the roof on that. And we were able to pay for it full, they did all driveways, everything they had to do we had the money, but we had to work on it. We don't have money out of our own pockets but we worked for it. And they did too! Because when we come in there--if you come in there on when they have Friday dinners, the young ones are serving just like the things they have to do just like they got their job we got schedules everybody does their jobs. I come in on Tuesday because I come in Tuesday we make the golabki. On Wednesday morning I come in and make the pierogis. We have a schedule for everything for the whole week. We have a group that comes in there that hard boils the cabbage. We have a group come in there a guy come in there, couples that peel the onions, and we have a group that have to get the eyes out, chop the potatoes up for the pierogis on that. We have somebody that has to see that all the stuff is brought there on there. Then we have a guy that comes in a couple of them that come in they pack the golabki and the pierogis they pack them on it. We got everything all situated for everyday for that.

DT: What is golabki?

AC: Pigs in a blanket.

Both: Ahh!

AC: Golabki, that's what it is.

BC: And everyone does this in their free time?

AC: This all for volunteer, and they do it for all that. And I say that they come in and then they have on Tuesdays they come in the young people they and father has catechism and they have dance practice on Tuesdays. And then a lot of times they've been, dancers have appeared in a lot of other places so they have to have extra dancing on that. We've been fortunate we've had dancers from all. It was fortunate for us that when the people start coming from Ukraine and they were in concentration camps, you know in camps? All the Ukrainians came in there so what they did is what were they gonna do? There was professors and stuff on there, so people went to school. We had, they had choirs, they had dancing and everything and people learned! Things on it in there. My sister in law, my sister in law her father was a school professor a--the head guy in the school-- the principal in a high school that's what he had in Europe on that so, and then so we were fortunate on things like that. So anything else you need to know, on that?

BC: Well our time is running out is there anything else you want to tell us?

AC: Well I think we about covered whatever on that, everything on there. I can't think of anything that would be on there--as I said we're very fortunate we can keep up in there and we're very fortunate to have father, father is very good if not for father, father's a business man.

AC: He goes on television, you'd be surprised--one of my niece's brother in-law says that he would make a good politician because when he goes, he goes to TV station they love him over there, he very good with people on that and things. So we're very fortunate. And what's very good to is we do get along with all the other churches like there's not a lot of things. I don't know if they have it anymore, but they used to have--in the city they had a group that used to go visit the golden dome churches. So they used to go from church to church to see all the different. In fact they didn't come every year but they would come over here and father would explain things on it. And what happens when we have a--our bazaar, father has to go and people come they want to see he has to go to church and explain that the different things we have in church on there. I understand-- like your point because you're Latin right? I grew up in the Roman Catholic because I went on that. We didn't know I was already on 12th year when the church started. So mostly, I went to first holy communion on the Latin right because there was no place for us to go, it wasn't here. And I know more about the Latin right than I do about our right on that so--

BC: Well, thank you so much for your time.

AC: Hey you're welcome.

(End of Interview)