Michael Gulachok

Ukrainian Oral History Project

Interview with: Michael Gulachok

Interviewed by: Russell Brown and Constantine Markotsis

Transcriber: Russell Brown and Constantine Markotsis

Date of interview: 6 April 2016 at 09:52 am

Interview Setting: St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church

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(Start of Interview)

Russell Brown: Hello, I'm Russell Brown, and I am here today with Constantine Markotsis. Today is April 6th, 2016 and the time is currently 9:52 AM and we are here at St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Johnson City, New York to interview Michael Gulachok to find out more about the history of the Ukrainian American Community of the Southern Tier. The two of us aim to explore the complexities of your past as a couple with first generation and third generation immigrant backgrounds.

Michael Gulachok: I'm a 3-rd generation Ukrainian, my grandparents came over in the early 1900's. They first came into Pennsylvania and then up to this area. My grandfather wanted to be a farmer, and my grandmother wanted to stay in town. So, they opened a restaurant, which I think started around 1928, and it is still over here on Harry L Drive the Oasis Restaurant, but it has been out of the family hands for quite some time.

RB: Could you please tell us a little bit about where you are from?

MG: I/m from this area, I was born in Binghamton at Lourdes Hospital 65 years ago, or maybe that was 56, no (chuckles), 65 years ago, and I grew up mostly in Candor and Owego and I graduated from Owego Free Academy, SUNY Binghamton and pretty much lived in the area all my life.

Constantine Markotsis: If I could just interject, where in Eastern Europe are your roots from?

MG: What would now be the southeastern most part of Poland, it's a small village outside of a town called Sanok, the village name is Ulychne, there is a great website Ulucz.com and it comes in English, and that'll tell you all about the village. There you can read all about the village. The history is actually quite interesting, just a little place and it seems to have great significance, and also on top of that, many of the people in this church came from that small village.

CM: And so, I guess that some of the original migrants came and told their families and neighbors to come here for work?

MG: Yeah come here to the EJ factories and IBM. A lot of people would come here over Scranton because that is mostly coal mining down there. For instance, I had a great Uncle who died in a coal mining accident, I think it was 1932, so I feel it was a little bit of a better life up here.

RB: Can you tell us a little bit about where your wife (Nataliya) is from?

MG: My wife Nataliya is from a town which is very close to the Romanian border, and it's called Chernivtsi. It's really quiet a nice city, it has a cultural component, there is a university there (Chernivtsi University). If you look at a picture of Chernivtsi (university),it looks like the architects were on psychedelics or something. I mean it is just so many different designs. If you ever get a chance look up Chernivtsi. She (Nataliya) is from there and her family lived in a small village outside of Chernivtsi. Her mother is still alive, plus she has her son, granddaughter and brother were still there. Her brother was living in the United States for 10 years or so, but he went back. And she had another brother who passed away.

RB: Could you describe your family's life in Ulychne?

MG: Well you see right now the Ukrainians were pushed out of Ulychne in 1946 by the Polish government. They were mostly resettled in what is now western Poland on the border of Germany and/or Ukraine. So Ulychne now and it has been since '46 or '47 is basically Polish, there are some Ukrainians still left but mostly Polish. And it is kind of isolated, there is a foot bridge as one place you can use to get to it (Ulychne). Then there is a bridge as another way and then there is a ferry. It's on the Sand River and I have been there twice.

RB: How did you like it there in Ulychne?

MG: Oh, I loved it! I couldn't live there. But there was a church there that is the oldest existing wooden Carpathian style church in Poland, and it's on a hillside looking over Ulychne. It dates from about 1620. It is a museum now and they don't have services there now. But if you go on the website you will see pictures of it. Also, I have to say when the Germans came through in '42 or something, a lot of the village either by the Germans or the Polish was burned. Basically, they destroyed it. We have a map, but I don't know if it is here, but there is a map from the early '30's of Ulychne it actually shows where everyone lived. There is a legend and numbers on the houses and you can actually see where my great grandparents lived.

CM: You say that the Ukrainian community was kicked out in '46, but your family left ways before that when it was still Austrian?

MG: Yeah, it was a part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, and we had relatives there when they were kicked out. Supposedly there is a family legend where we had a relative who had a grocery store there and when the Germans came though they shot her on the spot because of her protesting. We had relatives there when the Poles relocated them. But my relatives came over around 1912. My grandfather was 16 and my grandmother was from the same village. Her last name was Mareyko, Julia Mareyko and she came over two years later.

RB: Can you tell us a little bit about why your wife came over?

MG: She had relatives over here, she had an uncle who was a banker over in New Haven. By banker I don't mean he had money, he just worked as a banker (chuckles). He sponsored her, and she got a green card out of the lottery system and so did her brother Wassel and they both were living in Brooklyn. That is how she came over about 18 years ago.

RB: When your grandparents lived in Ulychne do you know how they felt about the quality of life there?

MG: It wasn't very good. There were land barons who controlled basically everything, and they only thing they did there was wood, vegetables, meat, cattle, and things of that sort. They would have to give a lot of it away to the barons.

RB: Do you know why your wife decided to move over?

MG: A better life. It's rough over there. The economy for a long time has not been very good in the Ukraine.

CM: Just to clarify, what year did you say your wife moved to the US?

MG: I am only guessing it was 16 or 18 years ago. I met her 15 years ago this May. She had been in the country for about two or three years at that time.

CM: So right around 2000 basically?

MG: A little before that yeah. I think '98.

CM: So, then she lived through a lot of the Soviet Era?

MG: Oh yeah. For instance, I took her to see Baryshnikov at the Anderson Center, and we had great seats and we were sitting right in front. And when I was telling her "Oh we are going to go see Baryshnikov, she really didn't know who he was, and I asked myself why she did not know. He defected in the '70s in Toronto before coming to the United States and you know the Soviet Union is not going to be allotting Baryshnikov over there. So, she really didn't know her story.

CM: So, you could say in America you were able to learn more about Ukrainian history perhaps more than someone who actually lived there?

MG: Oh yeah. Everything was Sovietized and it's basically what the Russians wanted them to know and learn. So, they had very limited knowledge of the United States and we were always portrayed as the devil.

CM: Do you think the people bought into that, or was her family consciousness of the fact that something wasn't right?

MG: I wouldn't say that about her parents, but, her contemporaries and her peers probably got that after a while because you can listen to radio for a year or get a bootleg movie and then they question why the US has such nicer things over there. You know the story: A Soviet athlete would walk into a supermarket and see 30 different types of shampoo and it was just mind blowing to them.

RB: Based on your own experience what do you think sets 1st generation and 3rd generation immigrants apart?

MG: Well, as far as 3rd generations go I did not have to embrace my history or my past, but I did. A lot of people just let it go and become Americans, and that is what our grandparents wanted really. They never really talked about the old country that much. They wanted us to be Americans, but there are so many people I know who are 3rd generation and they have no relation to their past, although it is up to each person.

CM: I guess I may be able to relate as a 3rd generation and I don't know if this relates to your experience, but My dad's father was born in Greece and he would always say "Don't play soccer, play baseball because that is what the Americans play!" And then as my generation rolled along we want to know more about where we came from. I don't know if that kind of sounds kind of similar to you.

MG: Yeah although I never really let it go. I was always into it, but I don't speak Ukrainian fluently, I know words and phrases. It is like that for so many people now, people are trying to find out more about their roots with places like Ancestry.com. For instance, the church of Latter Day Saints has a big collection of genealogical resources. For instance, if I had gone to them before going out on my own trying to find family history I would have saved a lot of money.

CM: I guess going off that, you said you speak some basic Ukrainian. I know we have Greek school, in this church is there a Ukrainian school?

MG: There used to be in the 50's and 60's. There hasn't been one for quite a long time.

CM: Do the kids speak Ukrainian?

MG: Sometimes, it depends on their parents and whether or not they speak it at home. There are a lot of people in this church who don't speak it and some that do. I wish we could recruit new generation Ukrainians here. For instance, there is a Pentecostal Ukrainian church over in Conklin in Berkshire. They actually have been getting VISA's because they say they don't have religious freedom in the Ukraine and that has been their entry point into the United States.

CM: This community is based on an older generation of immigrants than some of the other southern tier communities?

MG: Yeah, the wave of immigration from this church and this area basically in the early 1900's or the first 40 years of the 1900's.

RB: Now do you know why most people decided to live here in the southern tier of New York?

MG: Well wherever they have relatives or sponsors. I know that whenever the 1st generation peoples came here they looked at the hills and the weather here and they were just like "god this is just like home." (Laughter) It isn't very different here and there. I went to Sanok and it felt just like Berkshire, NY. The houses and the utilities are a little different obviously, but it basically looks the same. It depends where you have family, there are other Ukrainian churches in Florida and southern California.

RB: Just a little bit more about yourself, do you currently work?

MG: No, I am retired, I have a seasonal NY state job with the gaming commission. And I work 61 days a year at (Job).

RB: Could you tell us what your wife does?

MG: My wife is a sales associate at the men's clothing department in Macy's. She has been there for 14 years.

RB: What lessons has your work life taught you and your wife?

MG: To be honest, to be hardworking, I always intended to get their 15 minutes early. I liked getting to work and having time to prepare and not just jump right into things like wham! I like getting there like 20 minutes early, having a cup of coffee, and then when it's 8 or 8:30 get into it. I have seen so many situations where people got in at 8:30 and start working at 10 after 9 (laughter). So, for my wife she is conscientious and very hard-working. She is probably the most hard-working person I have ever met. This woman works even when she is on the telephone she will be cleaning the house. She'll be doing yard work after the sun goes down and I'll tell her to come on in you know it's dark out there (laughter), you've done enough today. They are just really really driven.

RB: Do you believe that is because of the culture she was brought up in the Ukraine?

MG: Yeah, you know kind of strict and hard-working. I know her father worked in a factory and he never missed a day, they are all pretty hard-working.

RB: Do you know what family was like for her and for yourself?

MG: As I said I have been to her village and her city a couple of times. It is a beautiful city, she is in a village just outside the city along the Prut River. Prut means swift in Ukrainian. I have seen her schools and where she went to school, the schools are fairly nice. It's kind of idyllic area, I swear to god it's like a fast-moving river, I mean you can still go into it and swim in it. There are also evergreen hillsides rising up and it is like you are in Deposit, NY. She had a fairly good life there. And I had a good life here. My parents bought land along the Susquehanna River. So, you know I didn't have a Huck Finn life (chuckles) but I had boats all my life. I still have land on the river and a house, but we were flooded twice and now we live in Endwell on a hill (laughter).

CM: You said the schools were pretty good where your wife came from. If I remember correctly, while the Soviet Union had a lot of hardships, it always had a good education program.

MG: Yeah, she went to a university. She went to Kiev University, she got a business degree. You know it is kind of difficult for people from other countries. They come over here and they are highly educated, and it is difficult translating that education experience into the mainstream of this country. I've known doctors, chemists that have come over here and are driving taxi cabs. They never achieve success they would have achieved if they were born here. Because their language is not that precise, and I know i couldn't do what my wife did. My wife came here and had to learn a new alphabet, a new language, new customs, how to do things like an American, so it's very difficult.

CM: So, your wife didn't speak any English when she came over?

MG: No, she went to class for English as a second language.

CM: ESL?

MG: Yeah. I also help her everyday with her language and she doesn't teach me any Ukrainian (laughter).

RB: That's a good segway into the next question. Do you know how well she assimilated to the United States?

MG: She is very assimilated, although she hurts easily. Working in merchandising you meet all kinds of people, nice people, people of different backgrounds. And she talks to customers who can't understand her, and she feels offended or hurt. But she has acclimated pretty well.

RB: Could you tell us about your grandparents when they came here?

MG: My grandfather's name was Mike Gulachok, although it was probably Mykhailo, but it got changed in Ellis Island. I don't know if it is in there (referring to the binder on his family) but there is a boat manifest and a lot of information in there depending on what they put in. I think that DeDe (grandfather in Ukrainian) I think he started in a coal mine down in Scranton and then moved here for a shoe factory and then he opened up the restaurant. They learned English pretty well, they learned to read, write and speak English well. They had a good life and they loved their family. They had 4 children and they are buried up here.

RB: What were some things your grandparents taught your parents and your parents taught you in terms of values?

MG: (laughter as he is pointing to the picture of his grandparents in front of the Oasis Restaurant)

CM: Just for the interview we are looking at a picture of his grandparents in front of the Oasis restaurant. That was the family business.

MG: This is Baba's (grandma in Ukrainian) birthday party, and I think this is around 1956 and this is me (points to himself as a kid) and this is my mother, and all these are family and friends. That was in the Binghamton Press. You know the cover of SGT. Peppers (Beatles album)?

CM: Yes.

RB: Yes.

MG: Well this is the family SGT. Peppers (laughter).

CM: You have a very large extended family for sure.

MG: Now do you want to ask me on how I met my wife?

RB: Absolutely!

MG: Oh, because this is a crazy story. May 15 years ago, I was spending a long weekend in NYC, and I'm staying in a hotel up in the theatre district. I decided to go down to the East Village to see what's happening down there, so I took a bus down Second Avenue and I got off at 7th street. The street was closed off because there was a Ukrainian festival and that is where I met here.

RB: Oh wow.

MG: I gave her my phone and address and she wrote to me and I wrote back and yeah that's how we met.

RB: That is amazing.

MG: Doesn't that make you believe in fate? I mean if I wasn't in NYC or decided to take the bus I would have never met her.

CM: Yeah, a lot had to happen for that, for sure.

I wrote down here that you mentioned in your family history that your family worked in the coal mines and moved to the shoe factories. From what Stephan and the Father told us it seems like your story and the Parish story are very similar.

MG: Oh yeah, very similar. You know some people became engineers, some became doctors, some were bartenders, some were restaurant owners, some farmers. Not everyone is a doctor or lawyer, some people have to cook the bread or stir the paint.

CM: It seems though that now when you compare it to the 1920's that the Parish seems to be a lot better off now the quality of life seems much better.

MG: Yeah around the 60's and 70's this area was quite booming. I mean it's been in decline but there were a lot of opportunities here. One-time IBM had employed 16,000 people, but now they employ like 2,000. There were a lot of opportunities here, the value of opportunity.

RB: what was your daily life like when you first met Natalia? She is a first-generation immigrant, so she still has to get used to the country and everything--

MG: Well that was interesting, she was living in Brooklyn and I was living in the country outside of Owego on the river. I proposed, and we got married in New York City at the marriage bureau in Manhattan, had many of her friends from Brooklyn for the reception and got an UHaul [for her belongings]. Then I brought her up here. She grew up in the country--

RB: [the Southern Tier was] as close to home as possible

MG: She went from living in NYC to living in the sticks up here. She liked it here, she learned how to drive a car, etc. and I've unsuccessfully tried to talk her into moving back to Brooklyn.

CM: I imagine in Brooklyn that she lived in an ethnic Ukrainian community?

MG: Actually not, she lived in Sunset Park, which was mainly an orthodox Jewish neighborhood. It really had all kinds of people there. There was this one commercial center close to where she lived, and I remember that there was a Chechen night club near it, and we'd walk by and the owners would say "come on in! Come on in!" But we'd say no thanks. There were really all kinds of people there.

CM: I imagine that she had to assimilate pretty quickly, and assume that she spoke some English by the time you guys met?

MG: Oh yeah, she had been taking some ESL courses, and while I writing to her, she would share [our correspondence] with her uncle, who told her "this is what you need, you need exposure to the language". While she lived in Brooklyn, all of her friends were Ukrainian, which led to her being pretty insular, and she didn't speak to many people in English other than when she went to a store for instance. When she came up here, she really got immersed.

RB: I imagine it'd be easier to do so up here (the southern tier), than in the hectic city.

MG: If you don't, talk to anyone in a language, you won't learn it.

CM: I agree, my experience has been such that I think you could take 80,000 of those (ESL) classes, but the real way to learn a language is just by being forced to speak it.

MG: Yeah, you can even learn English by just watching TV, especially situational comedies. Sometimes I hear things coming out of her mouth, and I think gee wiz, are we on law and order?

CM: Going off of that, have you noticed differences in Ukrainian and American mannerisms? Inter personal quirks perhaps? Such as how far away you should stand from the person you're talking to?

MG: Yeah, I've noticed that she is superstitious. If you look at pictures from the old country, you'll notice that no one is smiling.

RB: I have noticed that.

MG: Another example of this is when I go to buy clothes at the Salvation Army, she'll say that we shouldn't buy it since it was certainly owned by dead people, which we all know is not necessarily true or important if it was. She is also afraid of the cellar, I haven't the slightest idea why, and whenever she goes down there to wash something, I always have to check in on her and ask if she is ok. They (Ukrainians) certainly have their ways of acting, behaving and thinking, which we might not be familiar with.

RB: One of my Ukrainian friends told me that in his home he isn't permitted to whistle or to leave his keys on the table, is that a superstition that sounds familiar to you?

MG: I've never heard that one! [Laughs]

CM: If I recall, our friend also mentioned that his family told him not to smile too much, since that would lead to wrinkles in old age, does that sound familiar to you?

MG: I haven't heard of that one either. However, I have noticed that Ukrainian culture tends to be less relaxes, far more formal. If you go to someone's house you are expected to kiss all of the women's hands, bring flowers, food, wine, or something. Which I feel is nice.

CM: In general, that seems more formal than American culture, how do you feel that large holidays compare for instance?

MG: All gatherings certainly had a larger religious aspect to them, as opposed to pagan. Our Christmas and Easter are almost exclusively based on Christianity. As you know, our Christmas and Easter are celebrated at different times than other Christian denominations.

CM: Just to clarify for the recording, your church follows the old calendar correct?

MG: Correct, we follow the Julian calendar.

CM: And Easter coincides with Passover [in Eastern Orthodoxy]

MG: Yes, and this year our Easter will fall on May 1st.

CM: And do the other local Ukrainian churches in the area follow the same religious calendar? Such as Sacred Heart (A catholic parish) or the Pentecostal church?

MG: No, Sacred Heart's calendar is in line with the rest of the catholic calendar, and I'm not really not sure what the Pentecostals do.

RB: What made your grandparents chose this church over the others?

MG: Well my grandparents were founding members of the church and were very involved in it: one of grandparents even became church board president. It was a very important parcel of their history, their culture.

CM: Of course, as in many ethnic Eastern Orthodox denominations, I noticed while I was upstairs that this church has a Ukrainian flag next to the altar, and I feel that we can safely say that this doesn't function merely a place of worship, as opposed to the Catholic Church for instance. It is a national church that embodies the ethnic history and cultural values of the community here.

MG: It is, and no matter what variant of orthodoxy one practices, be it Serbian, Greek, Ukrainian, or otherwise, is still the same orthodox faith. I personally feel that it shouldn't be hung on an ethnicity or an ethnic background, because religion is universal. The semi separation arose from linguistic barriers and we should always aim to appeal to and include members of all other nations who wish to pray. I do remember that very recently we had a Binghamton University student who had come from Ethiopia, and he prayed with our community while he was here. I like the idea that you can come here regardless of what your heritage is.

CM: I absolutely agree with you. I do feel that this view is more widespread now in 2016 then it would have been historically.

MG: I would also imagine that earlier generations wouldn't have felt that way. I feel that people have become more thoughtful, open, and progressive than they were in say the 1930s.

CM: It seems that if you had an Ethiopian who felt comfortable here that we could characterize the parish itself as progressive and open one.

MG: Yes, we were happy to have him here.

RB: Just going back to your relatives, what sort of things did your parents teach you to regard as important? Such as the values they imbued in you?

MG: Honesty. Honesty, and hard work. I can't say love of family; don't get me wrong we loved each other, but we didn't really reach out to far. I started to get more involved in the church as of the 1990s and am happy to have seen society as a whole become kinder, and more well informed.

RB: Going off of that, as a 3rd generation Ukrainian American and a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, what do you feel best defines being "Ukrainian American", [as a Ukrainian immigrant would see it] and with regards to how you yourself would define it?

MG: Pride and love of heritage. My family came from an area of the world that had been persecuted, repressed, and that made heritage all the more important to hold onto-- I consider myself an American first and a Ukrainian American second. I value passing down our culture to the next generation, especially given the hard times that we [Ukrainians] have faced. Ukraine has been in the geopolitical crosshairs for centuries. Ukraine itself means "borderland" in Russian, which is evidence of its struggle through the millennia. That being said, I saw an online map of the changing borders of Europe over time, and we certainly aren't the only people to face such issues. Going forward I want to see the Ukraine succeed, and to be able to provide a better and more prosperous life for the Ukrainian people. You didn't happen to see the frontline documentary about Putin did you?

CM: No, but the two of us have managed to keep current as to the basics of the current situation in the Ukrainian [i.e.: Russian invasion of Crimea in 2014], and the country certainly has had a rough few years recently--.

CM: We could also ask you this: The Ukraine itself isn't a monolith: Many Ukrainians belong to different religious sects, such as the Russian Orthodox and Ukrainian Orthodox churches, Judaism, the Pentecostal church, etc. Some Ukrainians speak Ukrainian at home, other Russian, others Slovak, etc. I suppose we could say that there are many potential elements that can come together as part of a Ukrainian identity.

MG: All of those elements can vary, at the end of the day it is identifying with your heritage. If you were to google my name (Michael Gulachok) online, you'd find that there aren't any aside from me. I am proud of my name, and moreover my heritage. It feels like I'm one of the last Mohicans in a way, because I am probably the last one.

CM: I suppose Gulachok is a rare family name then?

MG: Yes. An interesting fact is that the word "Gula" in my last name had its origins in the Catholic Church and related to debauchery [laughter].

CM: My own last name translates to smuggler, so you never know [laughter].

MG: For all we know I had a drunken dancer as the family founder [laughter]

RB: Given that you are a 3rd generation Ukrainian, and your wife is 1st generation, what sort of values are emphasized in your household? What do you find most important in the household?

MG: Well, when my brother visited us recently he said "You know, this smells like Baba's (Grandma's) house." Meaning the food that we we cook, the icons that we have, and our artwork aren't very different from what my parents and grandparents would have had. When you step inside you instantly get the impression that you're in a Ukrainian enclave. I had a beautiful watercolor painting of the church that was ruined in the flood in Owego, and I still have it in the abandoned house. Now it seems sort of impressionistic.

CM: I guess it morphed into a Kandinsky [laughter]

M; Yeah either that or a Polack.

RB: How does your religion shape your Ukrainian identity?

MG: It is very much a part of who I am, when I had once physically left the church, I hadn't spiritually done so. The sermons here, and the liturgy are nowadays roughly one half Ukrainian, and one half English. It is a very integral part of who I am and who we are.

CM: In my own experience, it seems like an uncle of mine who wasn't too religious, but the church was always a part of the Greek identity. I feel as though the same applies in this community, and I feel in every sect of Eastern Orthodoxy, that the church life is integral in shaping the ethnic identity.

MG: Yes, I would agree.

RB: Would you say that you are more American, or more Ukrainian?

MG: I am more of an American, while my wife is more of a Ukrainian.

CM: Your wife of course lived there, and you mentioned that you've revisited Eastern Europe a few times.

MG: yes, I have been to Poland three times, Ukraine twice, Slovakia once, Russia once.

CM: Over the course of your visits, did you notice any change over time.

MG: Yes, especially in Poland, which is doing very well. Ukrainians look over the border at Poland and think "wow, the Poles are doing so well, if only we could do that". That and Ukraine is still struggling under the thumb of Russia, the people just want a better life for themselves and their children. Poland is truly doing very well. The first time I flew into Warsaw, which is actually pronounced "Varshova", the airport was very substandard, it was a dreary and dilapidated cinderblock building, and then just a few years later in the early 90s, the airport and the city itself had rapidly transformed.

CM: Just to clarify, when did you make your first visit?

MG: I first visited Russia and the Ukraine in 1992.

CM: So, the USSR had just fell.

MG: Correct, and the people were very excited for the future, Ukraine was free.

CM: So the general feeling wasn't a more apprehensive "what do we do now?" It was more of a "finally! We can't wait, Thank God! This is the best thing that could've happened!

MG: I never like to travel in a tourist bubble, when I went to Russia and the Ukraine for the first time I traveled with a peace group, so it wasn't a sightseeing itinerary based trip, we were able to really immerse ourselves and met a lot of people. We travelled extensively, by train, taxi, boat, plane, horse. People were excited, they didn't know what would come next but they were excited and hopeful.

RB: I recall you saying you and your wife travelled together to your wife's village. Did she ever say how it has changed if it has at all?

MG: There is definitely more building going on, newer/ more modern homes have popped up. Keep in mind these are single family houses, I'm not talking about multi story towers. The town looks like the old country aside from some new housing. The school especially looks very modern.

CM: You said that during the interlude between your visits, the area had changed quite a lot. Perhaps you could touch on the change in culture, and access to the outside world?

MG: They want to become more like the west, and it is not as closed as it used to be in Soviet days. The people now know about what is going on in the world.

RB: Do you feel that the Ukraine is becoming more Americanized.

MG: I would say maybe more Europeanized. After all Europe is right next door.

RB: Going back to the home, what sort of traditions do you retain from the old country in the home? What sort of things, such as Ukrainian Orthodox history matter a lot in your home?

MG: Well it goes back to the holidays, Stephan could probably articulate this better than I. But we try and keep our holidays in line with our Ukrainian Orthodox traditions, and our house.

RB: If I recall you speak some Ukrainian?

MG: yes "У вас є сестра?" (Do you have a sister?) [Laughter] "принести мені пиво" (Bring me a beer) [laughter]

C; All of the practical terms I suppose

MG: Of course, "Вибачте, де туалет?" (Excuse me, where is the toilet?)

CM: Yeah that'd definitely be good to know [laughter]

RB: Do you and your wife speak Ukrainian at home?

MG: Well she does when she swears at me [laughter] she swears in Ukrainian. We have skype, and she'll speak Ukrainian on skype with her friends from Brooklyn and New Jersey who don't speak much English. She does have skype connections with some people back in the Ukraine, but unfortunately none of her relatives live close to someone with access to skype. So she isn't able to look at and speak with them. But it is definitely nice that she can keep in touch with some people in New York and the Ukraine with it.

CM: Would that be because her friends are from a developed urban center like Kiev, or Odessa, etc.

MG: Yes, those people are certainly more prosperous, and have greater access to the globe.

CM: So it seems that there is a much greater disparity between urban and rural Ukraine than urban and rural America.

MG: Oh yeah, the cities have become very cosmopolitan and cultured, there is also certainly more economic activity going on in the cities. It is amazing to see horses and wagons.

CM: So you still see that to this day?

MG: Oh yeah, there are a lot of cars, but yes. The first time I went to Poland I was amazed by the sheer number of farmers using horses and wagons. After ten years had passed there were substantially fewer.

RB: Even within ten years a country can certainly change a lot, and I believe we have just about exhausted our time.

CM: Yes, right now though if there is anything you would like to add, or something you feel we didn't cover please add it in.

MG: As is I'll probably think of it as I walk out the door. [Laughter]

RB: Thank you very much for sharing the stories of you and your wife.

CM: Thank you very much, we enjoyed it a lot.

(End of Interview)