Sergey Gendelman

Ukrainian Oral History Project

Interview with: Sergey Gendelman

Interviewed by: Allan Gendelman

Transcriber: Allan Gendelman

Date of interview: 10 April 2016 at 10:41am

Interview Setting: 2636 East 23rd Apt. #2 Brooklyn, NY 11235

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(Start of Interview)

Sergey Gendelman: I was born in 1959 in Moscow in Soviet Union.

Allan Gendelman: And uhh, (is it, is it) how was your childhood? Happy memories? Good memories? Or more of a negative?

SG: My childhood, it's mostly happy. Probably everybody's childhood when you are a kid, it's everything is good. You have parents, you have some place to live, you have food. So you are happy. You have friends to play with. So, you are happy.

AG: So, tell me a little bit more about that. Where exactly did you live? With neighborhood did you live in?

SG: Okay, it was Moscow. It's the capital of the Soviet Union. It was not downtown, but it's some sleepy area of Moscow.

AG: So, pretty quiet?

SG: Yeah, pretty quiet. It used to be pretty safe. So, we could walk around and play around by ourselves without parents. Just with friends. We have yards around our houses. Not house, buildings. Most of us have buildings. So, we have yards. And we have place to play. So that's how we spent our childhood.

AG: It was more of an urban setting, right? More of a city, not a village, right?

SG: No, it's a real city. Moscow is a huge city. It's just one of the sleepy areas of Moscow.

AG: Sort of how Brooklyn is to Manhattan? We all live in New York, but Brooklyn is a little bit quieter.

SG: Yeah, kind of.

AG: So, tell me about the building you grew up in. How was that? Describe it to me physically. How big was it? How many floors? What did it look like?

SG: Okay, it was five story brick building. No elevators. We lived on the third floor. We had two rooms. When we moved in- we got lucky we moved in a separate apartment because most of the people lived a few families together in the same apartment. Just one room, and shared a kitchen, and bathroom, and other common places. So we got lucky when I was born, my family got a new apartment. It was two rooms, and it was six of us living in two rooms.

AG: So are you saying that at some point you did live in a communal area where you had to share the kitchen and other amenities.

SG: Actually for myself, personally, I had never lived with other people in the same apartment. So, as I said, I got lucky. We got (we got) a new apartment when I was born. It was too many people for our old apartment. (It's, so) And six people in two rooms. I don't know how by Americans measure, it probably still too much.

AG: It's actually interesting that you said that. So you didn't grow up in a communal setting, and you're saying that's how people usually lived?

SG: Yeah, I would say 50%- 60% of the people. Live together, a few families to the same apartment.

AG: So would you say you living in an apartment that you didn't have to share with other families in a non-communal setting- do you think that had any impact on you, growing up? Because I would think that if everyone else is growing up with other families. Maybe the way they, not just the way the lived, the way they grew up, the principles they grew up with could be different.

SG: It's difficult to say, because I didn't have actually other way to live so. So it's the only way I. I don't know what to say. I never lived in other conditions, so it's what it is.

AG: That's true. Well do you think you grew up a little bit differently than the people around you? The kids around you?

SG: I would say that my condition was a little bit better than some of my friends. I visit them, and we play together and I saw how they lived. My condition it was better. Yeah.

AG: Not just conditions really. What I'm really asking is. So you're my father. I've obviously know you growing up. It seems apparent that your friends and a lot of your family stayed in the Soviet Union and Russia. And from what I know, this is something you always wanted to do growing up.

SG: No. At my childhood, when I was a teenager. I was thinking I am living in the best country in the world. So, I didn't have any problems when I was a teenager. I happened later, when I understand what's going around me and other countries. And it's most of what we know is just a lie. It's not true. And I'm pushed to do what I don't want to do. And my understanding, it happened probably when I was 15, 16. When I got more information outside. It was difficult to get this information. I trying to listen to some outside- foreign- radio. It was not allowed. First I started listen because of music. Foreign music, I loved it and I love it now. Also, I started to listen to the news and I started thinking. Most of what our government said to us, it's not true. It's how it started my different view on my country. But when I was a child, I was thinking I'm living in the best country in the world. It was my belief.

AG: You said you were pushed to do something you didn't want to do. What do you mean by that?

SG: Uhh, okay. When you are in school, you have to be in pioneer organization. It's like young communists.

AG: Like Boy Scouts?

SG: Yeah, like boy scouts. But it's not your choice. You have to do it. Otherwise you will be like--umm.umm.

AG: A traitor?

SG: Yeah, a traitor. So it's going to be much more difficult for you to be in school. To be in a community. Like all people. And you will not have any future, if you do not follow what everyone else is following.

AG: Your career choice, your school choice. The profession you chose to pursue. What that your choice.

SG: It was my choice but it was with a lot of limitation. First limitation because I am a Jew. And not all colleges accepted Jew people. And if they accept, it was just for very limited percentage. So, and you have to be in Young Communist to have more possibility to get into college. So it was my choice.

AG: Why don't you tell me about what you did pursue? What did you actually study and what did you end up working as?

SG: I graduated as an engineer. Electronic engineer. So what I studied was a lot of math. A lot of physics. Automatization systems. And of course communist party history. That was probably most important subject in college. There's a special test for that and if you fail it, you will not get a diploma of engineer.

AG: And what did you go on to become? What was your job?

SG: My first job, I was a construction engineer. I made schematics for automatization system for agriculture. So I was obligated to work for some company for three years. So there were some choices, but not many. And I had to work for at least for three years. After three years, I had a choice to quit and find a new job. So I quit, and moved to a new job in the field.

AG: What was that field?

SG: It was, I just. I was special tools for auto manufacturing. It was electronic devices that I had to adjust. It was like mini computers so it was more interesting for me. So it's like work in field. I was not sitting in one place. I was moving to different companies to help them with different tools.

AG: Was that the last job you held in the Soviet Union, or were there more.

SG: I had then when computers started to introduce in our environment. I started learning programming. It's how I started programming. It helped when I moved to the United States. I had some background to start with.

AG: I want to come back to that, I want to ask you right now about your second job. You said you had to travel a lot for that job, right.

SG: I travelled to different cities.

AG: So outside of Russia, right?

SG: Yes.

AG: Was that common. Was that a special privilege that you got?

SG: No you could travel in any place in the Soviet Union. What wasn't allowed was to leave the Soviet Union. For travel, for business. That was a real, real privilege. So you couldn't just go wherever you want to go. You had to get an out visa, not in. A Visa to get out of the Soviet Union. And it was really difficult. Very limited people could do it.

AG: Would you say it was feasible for people to travel like you travel, or were they too impoverished?

SG: It was, it wasn't big money. It's money to feed yourself and your family. I said I lived in Moscow. Moscow is absolutely different than other Soviet Union territories because it was difficult in Moscow to buy some food, but there are foods in stores in Moscow. But from other regions, people come to Moscow to buy something. Clothes, food, but it was much much more difficult to buy something outside of Moscow. I was lucky, again, to be living in Moscow, not other regions of Soviet Union. I got to see how other people lived. Sometimes people were happy when I could come and bring some food with me and share it with people. They were very happy.

AG: Tell me more about that. Did you learn anything while you travelled and you got to see how other people lived? Did that impact you in any other way?

SG: Yeah, I saw people live much worse than people in Moscow and sometimes, it was real poverty. In Moscow, I didn't see poverty. Everything was, 90% was, I would say everyone was just equally, not poor but they couldn't afford cars. They couldn't afford apartments. Government could just give it to people and if you don't have a good apartment. Everyone had an apartment. Maybe it wasn't good, maybe it was overcrowded, and people didn't have money to buy something new. Car was, real, real luxury to use car. But we had public transportation I never thought that I need a car because it was beyond my possibility, beyond my wishes.

AG: You're saying it was too luxurious?

SG: Yeah, yeah. It was too luxuries. Only people who were criminals could buy a car. Or some famous people could buy a car. Academics, famous artists.

AG: You're saying criminals could buy cars.

SG: And yeah, criminals could buy cars. Because they steal something for other people. Or people actually who work for government, for communist party. They had more possibilities to buy a car.

AG: What did you- so you are saying you saw a lot of poverty when you left Moscow. Do you have any particular memories of your travels and particular stories, maybe anything you want to tell, do you remember what kind of foods you ate, something like that? Something unique that you encountered that you didn't before.

SG: Some trips were really food. I would say Georgia, I remember, it was very country, very nice people, very kind. And so, food was interesting, it was different. It was a nice experience to go to Tbilisi, it was the Georgian Capital. But some regions were really poor and I couldn't buy anything in stores and I had to use a cafeteria in places I worked for. I couldn't eat what they fed me. I was trying to do my job instead of in a week, in two days and just leave because it was not a pleasure to stay there. I worked fifteen hours a day, just to leave there.

AG: What did you eat in the cafeterias?

SG: I don't know. It was some cutlets. And okay, if you don't have bread to not taste what you're eating, to not smell, I don't know what it was, but it was something not eatable. And always, when I go on a trip, I had food with me. So I can have my breakfast in the hotel room and some late dinner in hotel again. In some places, I did not eat anything at all during the day. Just work 12 - 15 hours. And eat just early morning using my own food I brought from Moscow and late dinner. My dream was to just finish the job I had to do and leave it.

AG: How long did you do that job for? How long did it last for?

SG: It's about six years, I would say. Or seven years. It's not for the same company. I used to work for one company. Then I moved to other company, that offers better conditions but still the same kind of job. And then I moved to some plant and I started studying programming and that's how I became a programmer. I started fixing first, learning hardware first, then studying programming and converted to programmer.

AG: What made you do that job for six years? Did you not have the opportunity to find another source of employment?

SG: I didn't say I wasn't happy with the job. I was happy with the job. I wasn't happy with some places that I visited. I couldn't do my job sometimes because of the conditions that I lived in. The job itself I liked.

AG: Why don't you tell me about how you got started in programming? So you said you were studying hardware first, then you moved on to software.

SG: Yeah, I was working for some company to adjust their tools with controllers. So, it was an electronic job. Then they created a computer department. It just started in the Soviet Union. In the beginning, I helped the company choose computers, buy computers, and fix, and parallel I learned how to program. I went to college again get a programmer diploma. At the same time, I was working. And, that's how I started programming. When I came to America, it actually wasn't the same kind of programming I did in the Soviet Union, and I also went to school to learn something new, but it was much easier for me to be in the field because I already had some basic knowledge.

AG: Do you remember exactly how you started programming? Did someone tell you about it? Did you discover it? Do you remember the day?

SG: Actually, I wasn't a day. It was as I said, I started to learn something new, and I started learning more and I created some projects and at the same time, I was responsible to supporting computer hardware so I did both jobs. That's how I gained more knowledge. So I created more software.

AG: Was it someone in particular that opened to up to software?

SG: Not really, no. It was interesting. I was something new to learn, so I started learning.

AG: You said you went to school and you worked at the same time when you were learning programming. Was that challenging? Because I would imagine having a full time job and going to school is always challenging.

SG: I don't remember. It was challenging, it was interesting. It was about 30 years ago, so I don't remember. It was interesting. When you are interested in something, it's much easier to be successful in it.

AG: So you said you came to American and you eventually became a programmer and you said it was a lot easier for you to do that because you were in the Soviet Union and you already had some sort of training and some sort of education and experience in the field. Did you come to the United States and right away become a programmer?

SG: It actually was my first job. When I was student in United States and I did some small temporary jobs just to feed my family. And you were just born, as so we didn't have much money so I had to do some temporary jobs but it was very helpful.

AG: Tell me about those jobs. Tell me about those temporary jobs.

SG: It's something I had to do. I distributed flyers. I don't remember.

AG: You don't recall?

SG: It wasn't the happiest days of my life. It was difficult. Not what I wanted to do. It wasn't the reason I came to America. But it was a good experience and it's what I had to do for my family. I knew immigration, it was difficult, to absorb a new style of life. To start speaking in English, it was most difficult probably. To understand what people are saying and to explain myself to other people. So it was difficult times. But I don't regret it.

AG: So you are saying the language barrier was the most difficult part, to understand what people are saying. Was there anything else that was difficult? Were the people different in the Soviet Union or are people just people everywhere?

SG: Most of the people, like you said, are people just people. I had my close relative here, my uncle he just helped me. Explained a lot of things. For all my questions I could ask "what does it mean? What should I do with it?' I was open to new relationships, new people, everything new, so I accepted as it is.

AG: Well was there any cultural shock? Anything in particular that surprised you?

SG: Usually when Soviet people come to America first, what they're shocked about is when they go to stores and see how much food is in the stores and clothes. I wasn't shocked because I had information from people who lived here already before I left the Soviet Union. It was interesting but I wasn't shocked. What actually I was pleased with is that people smile, on the streets, on transportation. Wherever you are going, you see people smile. It's not in the behavior of Soviet people. Probably still they don't smile.

AG: Smiling. That was big for you?

SG: Smiling. Yeah. That was probably the biggest most positive impression that I got.

AG: So was it your first time in America when you got here? Did you immigrate straight here or had you been here previously.

SG: First, I'd been here in 1990, just for travel. My uncle sent special invitation to me otherwise I couldn't leave the Soviet Union. It was opened up by Gorbachev, but it was still limited. You had to get special invitation from other country to be allowed to go. My first experience, I went in 1990 as I said. I went to New York. My cousin got me around to other cities so I fell in love with America, so I decided I was going to leave the Soviet Union.

AG: Was it that month you spent in America, was it like you expected it to be from the information that you got from the American radios in the Soviet Union? Tell me. Tell me how it was for you.

SG: I was surprised. Actually I already had information so I wasn't surprised. I loved New York, Manhattan, I was happy to see it with my own eyes. Not on television, maybe I was shocked when I saw first time Manhattan. I came as a tourist, so it's different when you live in a country. Everything was good. People were nice to me. It was a pleasure. I knew if I moved permanently here, it will not be so easy to be part of this country. So I knew it was challenging but I was ready for challenged. When I moved here permanently, I was ready for all difficulties.

AG: Why do you say that? You knew it was going to be challenging. What led you to believe it was going to be challenging?

SG: Because my English was limited and I knew to do some job I had to speak fluently to know what to do. I knew that it's always difficult. When you live in one country and everything is familiar to you. New Country, new culture. People, language, it's always difficult. But's it's a good experience. But I'm happy you don't have to get through it because you were born here. It's your country- it's my country too- but it's your country from the beginning. And you don't have to get used to it.

AG: What kind of other difficulties did you face when you came here? Was poverty and issue?

SG: I mean, yeah. I had some money to pay for my rent and food, but I learned how to do shopping so I knew where the sales were and I could save a lot of money doing it. I didn't have a lot of money doing anything extra, it was okay. I knew it was temporary for some period of time. My goal is to find a job. And everything would change.

AG: When you came here- you grew up eating cutlets and borsht- and all of that really Russian Soviet Union Stuff. Is there anything that you came here and you were really, and you really liked and you really didn't like?

SG: Actually, I like to try new food. First when I saw sushi, I could try it because I've never eaten raw fish before because it was really strange for me. But my friends showed me how to eat it. I tried it and I tried it again. Now I love it. I miss it if I don't have it for a couple of weeks. So I miss it. So, I love to go to different restaurants to try new foods. A different style so I like that.

AG: Did you buy any frozen food. I mean if I lived in a country where I was really limited by the cuisine I had and the kind of food that I had, and I came to this country, I think I would just buy everything. I would want to try all this strange new food. Is there anything, did you do that? Or did you only buy foods that you knew how to cook and were familiar with.

SG: I buy mostly what I knew. I don't buy new food because I don't know how to cook it, maybe very rarely. To try new food, I just go to a restaurant. Turkish, Lebanon, Indian. And actually with Indian food as well, when I first tried Indian food. I couldn't eat it. It was very spicy, I couldn't eat it at all. But now from time to time I would like to have Indian food. But actually I'm still trying as when I came to this country and I still try to save money shopping. I still do it. I try to but most of the food on sale and save this money actually with what I actually want to do all my years in the Soviet Union. To travel to different countries. Because I was really, really limited to see the world. Now I enjoy, and I'm trying to explore as many countries as I can.

AG: We just came back from Italy. It's funny that you said that. We do travel a lot. Do you think the way you are living your life now, saving every penny that you can so that you can buy the things that you want. Do you think that's something uniquely Russian, or something you do because you were taught to do it. Because from my experiences, people here in the US aren't so conscious about their spending. They don't wait for sales. If they want food, they just go buy it.

SG: I don't know why I do it. Maybe it's in my nature to not over pay. It's like for me, it's a sport if I find something I could pay for half price. So I'm looking for a bargains. I prefer to visit 2-3 different supermarkets than to just go to one place and why whatever I see. I don't know. Maybe it's in my nature. Because I know other Russian people and they don't save money on food and buy whatever they want.

AG: I guess it depends from person to person.

SG: Yeah. I think so.

AG: So, you came here. You handed out flyers. You didn't live in the best conditions. What was the first apartment? Or the first place you lived in?

SG: It was an interesting experience. First we lived with our relatives a couple of weeks and what we saw was killing us. It was dirty with cockroaches, it was something with awful smell. Actually, we had little money to spend, we were looking for very, very cheap apartments. And my wife was crying and saying "okay, I want to go back. I don't want to live in those apartments". Because in Moscow it was small apartments but it was clean. It belonged to us and we care about it and take care of it and clean. It smelled good, but when we saw an apartment that was just renovated and it was clean and no smell, we loved, it was small, it was just studio, we loved it and we moved in. It was just two of us, it was more than enough. It was in the Bay Ridge area, a good safe area in 1993 when we moved to America. So, that's how we started. But then, when you were born, we had to move to a new apartment that was bigger. But I already worked at that time so I could afford it so we moved. It wasn't a good apartment. I was a two bedroom but it was small and not as good. So in a few years, I kept working, and we moved to a much better apartment, still in Bay Ridge.

AG: And you liked that apartment?

SG: Yeah, we liked that apartment. The best part of it was the view. It was a view on downtown and midtown Manhattan and statue of liberty and Hudson and the view was just amazing. I could look at it every day for a long time. It always was different because of the sun shining and nighttime and I so enjoyed it probably until 9/11 because when I saw everything that happened on 9/11, it really changed me. I had been working very, very close to the Twin buildings. I saw it from a very, very close distance, how it happened. The building collapsed, how the planes hit the buildings, so it was a nightmare.

AG: You worked close by there?

SG: It was less than half a mile from the Twin buildings.

AG: Would you say that changed your view of America in any way.

SG: Not America itself but something really changed. It was like if you lived in some sunny conditions, and then clouds came. It's like everything is the same, but something is different and you couldn't explain actually what changed, but it was.

AG: Did it impact your view of how safe you felt in America? Did you feel safer before 9/11, or the same? Do you still feel safe? Do you feel safe?

SG: Pretty much, I do feel safe, but before 9/11 I didn't think about safety. We lived in Bay Ridge, and we could walk around during midnight without people around us. Because when I left Moscow, when I left Russia, it was very, very dangerous and so just to walk around. If you don't have to go out, it's better to not go out. But when I came to America, I was so impressed, I don't feel any dangers around me.

AG: So you had this very safe view of America and you could go out and it was much safer in your eyes than in Russia. Did you think about going back to Russia to live there because--

SG: No, never. Never again.

AG: --because it was safer and the dangers of another terrorist attack warranted going back?

SG: Whatever could happen, now it's my country? Now I will a part of that. So I'm not thinking about to go back.

AG: So would you say you identify as an American now, if someone asked what you were.

SG: Definitely.

AG: You wouldn't say you were a Russian?

SG: Nope. My roots are Russian. I still speak in Russian, so.

AG: What do you think it means to be an American? What is an American?

SG: I don't know. I just live in great country. It doesn't mean I like everything that is happening to our country, it could be much better, and it's probably getting worse than it was in the 90s. But I believe in America. I believe it could do better.

AG: Do you think it's worse than when you came here?

SG: What do you mean?

AG: You said you don't think it's as good as in the 90s, right?

SG: Well yes. It's because of the economy. It's because of jobs and probably it started from 9/11. It's how the country started changing. And it's not as open as it used to be. And that's what I liked.

AG: What do you mean by open?

SG: Open to things. Okay, open to things we would like to do. We are not limited to anything, by law only. So I understand, some things are done for our safety, and I understand it, and I agree with it. It is different now, than it used to be. SO when you go somewhere, and now when you go to airport, there are a few checkpoints when security screens you. I remember days when you just went to the airport and sit on the plane and go to another country without any screening. Like I said, I agree it needs to be done. It's for out safety.

AG: So you're saying before 9/11, there wasn't any security?

SG: There was security, but they didn't check actually your luggage. They didn't check you, so you just pass by on your flight.

AG: Really?

SG: Yep.

AG: Do you feel confident in America's future. Do you feel like I will have as future- a good as life as you did? As better, or worse?

SG: I don't know. It looks to me that the labor market is much worse than in the 90s. And I see a lot of young people who graduated in colleges who couldn't find a job. I believe America could change something about that. To create more work, more business.

AG: Yeah, a lot of people in my school, in my college, they are very cynical about their futures and what we talk about in class, a lot their futures won't be as good as their parents. Granted, a lot of their parents were immigrants as mine, so they didn't have to go through as rough conditions but they don't seem as hopeful for the future as perhaps I do, or you do. Do you think I'll earn as much as you, or have as good a job as you? Do you feel confident in that?

SG: Not so comfortable. Not so confident. But I still believe in America. America could do something about that. I believe in it.

AG: Do you think hard work- if you work hard in America, you will be successful. You will achieve your dreams.

SG: Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah. If you work hard, if you have knowledge, if you have ambitions. You could do whatever you want to do, you can achieve whatever you want to achieve.

AG: Where do you think that attitude comes from? Do you think- we were taught growing up that that's the American dream, an American idea. But I seem think that that's a Russian ideal. That if you work hard, you will succeed. That you have to work hard, that you have to, that you really have to try. You really have to hustle, that you really need to bust your ass to do everything you can and go to sleep tired.

SG: I don't think it's a Russian idea. In Russia, you could work hard and be smart, but to be successful, first of all, you have to have connections. Connections could help you with some goal. There are some exceptions, but I mean for a majority of people, it's just connections, not talent. In Russia, back in my time, if you're Jewish, you are very limited in the position that you could obtain. So, a lot limitation for Jewish people. At least, there used to be.

AG: From what I know, maybe not you, maybe not mom. My grandparents. Your parents, had to do two, three jobs on the side just to earn money. Right?

SG: Most of the people just work one job. We didn't pay for much, we didn't have mortgages. Just for food. Just save some money on vacation. It was actually the purpose of earning money. Salary wasn't big, but you didn't have to pay for education, you didn't have to pay for medical service. Medical service wasn't good, but you didn't have any choice. Probably, you didn't have to pay for that, but you had to give some gifts something meaningful to get medical service. Sometimes you had to give bribes to get into colleges as well.

AG: To give bribes, rights?

SG: Yeah.

AG: You'd say you are a hard worker. You and mom work hard, right?

SG: I think so.

AG: Why do you think you do it? What makes you work hard?

SG: I like my job. Actually, I have to earn money. I don't know if I had enough money for all my needs. Maybe I would afford early retirement, and travel and that would be more interesting. Sometimes much more than eight hours. I have to earn money to pay for mortgage. Just twentysix more years left. I hope I will still be alive then at that time. So I had to do it. And I like to do it. Sometimes it's difficult, pressure, a lot of stress. But what is it? It is what it is.

AG: So you do it for your family? You do it so that you could afford the things you want in life.

SG: It's for my family, to be able to travel, to pay for your education. For other things. To go to restaurants sometimes. To afford things I would like to afford.

AG: I think we could do this for many, many days, weeks. It's been an hour, and I did learn a lot about your life. Is there anything else you'd like to tell me? Anything in particular about your experiences in life or here. Or anything you'd like to share with people? Any hopeful message?

SG: I don't know actually.

AG: Any advice to give to people to be successful?

SG: Be a good student. Learn a lot. Be a hard worker. To be ambitious. And you could achieve whatever you would like to/

AG: Thank you very much, Sergey Gendelman. That was a great interview. Thank you for that.

(End of Interview)