Sol Braun

Ukrainian Oral History Project

Interview with: Sol Braun

Interviewed by: Evan Cole

Transcriber: Evan Cole

Date of interview: 1 April 2016 at 04:05 pm

Interview Setting: Sol's home, in Tappan, New York

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(Start of Interview)

Evan Cole: Hi, I'm Evan Cole and I'm with Sol Braun. It is April 1, 2016, just after 4 PM. We are at Sol's house. Sol is an immigrant from Russia and Poland during the time of the Soviet Union. Sol, start me off by saying when and where you were born.

Sol Braun: I was born in Poland in a shtetl, a small town outside of Warsaw called Nowy Dwór (Nowy Dwór Mazowiecki).

EC: In what year?

SB: I was born in 1927.

EC: You lived in Poland for a short time, right?

SB: Until the age of twelve.

EC: Up until you were twelve, what do you really remember the most about Poland?

SB: We all lived in the center of town. My father was a shoemaker and he worked very hard. We had enough to eat; I was never hungry. I had a lot of friends and family, and it was an easy life. Being that I was the first born, my mother really took care of me.

EC: How many siblings do you have?

SB: I had two sisters in Poland. At first I went to Hebrew school, Tarbut, and I finished in third grade. My mother decided that's not for me, so they sent me to public school, which I went through 4th and 5th grade, and then World War II started.

EC: Once World War II started, you went to Russia?

SB: After being with the Germans for a few months, we realized this is not going to be an easy life. So, my parents, me, my father's brother, and my two sisters, we all went to the Soviet Union's part of Poland, called Białystok. It was not an easy life because it was a lot of people. There was no room; we slept on the floor of a synagogue until they organized and we were able to go on some kind of farm, which was not bad. Eventually, in 1940, the Soviet Union rounded up all of those people and they sent us to a Gulag in the Soviet Union.

EC: You said you slept on the floor of a synagogue; is that where you lived as well?

SB: That was only for two weeks or so.

EC: Can you describe the living conditions of the Gulag in the Soviet Union?

SB: They brought us in there and then there was a nachalny, the head; he had a speech for us. He said, 'This is your home now. You're going to live here and you're going to die here." That was the first speech, and this were people who were the shoemakers, the tailors, or some other kind of job. The job that was available was to cut down trees, lumberjacks. So, they had to learn. The father worked there, and it was a hard life. The food was not enough food; most of the time we were hungry. Many times, when I ate one meal, I did not know when I'm going to have the second meal, or when I'm going to eat again. Some days, I could've gone a day or two before we had food again. We stayed like this for a year and a half.

EC: When you were given food, how much was given to your family?

SB: If you worked, you would get 1,500 grams of bread. If we didn't work, we'd get only 400 grams. Also, you needed money to buy the bread. Sometimes, father would get sick and couldn't work. They didn't pay him, so we didn't have money to buy it. It was a very hard life, but after a while, we realized that in spite of all the hardship and all the things they were sending us through in gulags, they actually saved our lives.

EC: How did it do that?

SB: Because, the Germans occupied Poland, Ukraine, and all of Europe. The Jews were sent into concentration camps, or death camps. We were hungry and cold, but our lives weren't threatened. Then, we realized that we're really lucky in a way, because we managed to be hungry and working. After a while, the Russians freed us. They let us go out; we could live wherever we wanted to, like the Russians, but not in big cities. We settled in a small place, not too far from the gulag, in a city called Kotlas, which was maybe two or three hundred miles from the Arctic Circle. Father finally got a job as a shoemaker, his own profession. After that, we were less hungry. That's how it worked out. That was 1941 into '42.

EC: When you left the gulag?

SB: When we stayed there.

EC: So it was only for a year or two?

SB: About a year and a half.

EC: What were the sleeping conditions like? Did you have a lot of beds for your family?

SB: No, when we were in the gulag, we only had one room. My mother and father had the bed. My two sisters and I, we slept on the floor. The room was maybe 8' x 10'. In the morning, we had to chop the wood in the cold and bring it in. It was a hard life, but we were safe.

EC: Is there any way you can compare the life in the gulag to when you moved out to towards Arctic Circle?

SB: It was entirely different because father was a shoemaker for one thing. The Soviet Union at that time was: if you wanted to have something done, if you know someone in the higher ups, then you get something done. Father was the only guy to do the shoes, and he had a leg up. If somebody would want it to be done faster, they would bring potatoes and bread. We had extra food because father worked extra hours, and I actually helped him. I became a shoemaker. It was easier; we weren't really hungry. Then, it was a hard life, but we were safe.

EC: With your time in the gulag, if you could name one thing that you remember the most, what would it be?

SB: When we arrived in the Kotlas, and father got the job and they decided to give us a place to live. Instead of Kotlas, which is a part of work, there was the river Sukhona. We were right on the river. They found a place on the other side of the river, and that was a walk for about 45 minutes. Father, at every morning and at night, he'd have to get up and go by the river. They had a boat that you had to row. Everybody rowed wherever you can. It came to the side and we went to the other side. It was organized by the people themselves. So, what I remember the most, the first time the whole family went from Kotlas to cross the river. It was already in November, and the river was almost frozen, so what people had was long sticks and there was lots of ice over it, so you push and the ice goes away to cross over. We crossed over and then had to wait a few days or so until the river froze and then we were able to go back and forth. I remember that going on the river and pushing the ice away to cross it.

EC: How many languages do you speak?

SB: Well, not now so many, but there was a time, before I came to the United States, I could speak Polish, Russian, German, and Yiddish. Then, when I came to America I learned to speak English. I can speak a little Polish and German, but not very good. English is the main thing.

EC: Did you learn Russian before you went to Russia?

SB: No, but it's a Slavic language, so it's similar to Polish. It's just a little adjustment. When you're young you--at the time I was only 13, 14 years old--so at that time you pick it up fast.

EC: When you were in Russia, did you experience any unfair treatment in comparison to America?

SB: I had an instant that was in 1943. At the time we had left Kotlas. My whole family wound up outside of Gorki, which would be on the Walder River, and I forgot what they call it now. So, we wound up in the town called Bogorodsk. Once we got to that town, we were much, much better off. Father was a shoemaker and I helped him, so we had enough food; we weren't hungry anymore.

EC: You weren't discriminated?

SB: Oh yeah, I was going to say that. The only thing I remember was something funny. I don't know if I should say that or not. It's a very innocent thing to say, but there was many Russians who heard of Jews but never met one. So, when I worked there, there was young boys my age. Sometimes at lunchtime, we didn't know what to do. So all of a sudden we stop to pee and they say to me, 'we want to see yours because we heard yours is different!' I said, 'I'm not going to show,' you know, but at least they didn't look if I had horns. But no, I didn't find any--maybe there was, but I didn't feel it.

EC: What is your overall opinion of Russia, now?

SB: My opinion now?

EC: You, now, of the time in Russia that you had.

SB: I found that the Russian people up north, where I was, are the nicest people you can find because they have to help each other. Just to give an example, if you have to go from one place to the other and you had to walk. If you get cold and you're hungry, you stop at any little house, and you go in there, they'll give you food; you can stay over. What you do is you help out: you chop some wood or do some other things for that. And there was actually no crime involved. The nicest people are up north; I was very impressed with that.

EC: What was the main reason for you to come to America?

SB: We had family here, and being I was in Germany, a displaced person, so I wanted to come to America and become a citizen, have a job, and belong to someone. When I was a displaced person, I didn't belong to anyone.

EC: How did you get to Germany?

SB: In 1946, the war was over, so the Russians actually sent us back to Poland on the same trains as those that took us there. But it didn't wind up in my hometown; we wound up in the part that was Germany before the war was like Weldenbourg and Breslau. So, we were in Weldenbourg. They put us in that place and we stayed there a while. Then we had some information from my mother's sister in New York that we should try and come to America. The only way to come to America was to go to the American zone. So, illegally, we went over the border to Czechoslovakia and then we wound up in Vienna. Also as a displaced person, we wound up near the outside of Frankfurt in a displaced person camp, or DP. We stayed there until 1949.

EC: Can you describe what it was like traveling illegally to get to the safe zone? How long did it take?

SB: We weren't far from the border. It was all organized. The only thing they told us was, 'Don't talk and don't say anything. Throw away all of the documents. Then when you go there, tell them you were Greek.' We went through that and said we couldn't understand anything, and just went through. That was the whole trick; we were told to do that. Once I was in Czechoslovakia, we went in the train and wound up in Vienna. Once we were in Vienna, we actually were not in the Soviet Union anymore; we were free.

EC: Do you still keep any traditions in America that you had while you were overseas?

SB: Not really, I mean what is there? If you were a religious person, maybe you do the same thing. With me, I adjust. Now I'm an American; I do what Americans do. The American Dream for me is work.

EC: What job did you get when you came to America?

SB: Well, I tried to get a job and the government told me I make it.

EC: When you were over in the Soviet Union, what was your opinion of America when you there?

SB: At that time, in my wildest dreams, I couldn't imagine that I'm going to be in America right now talking to you. I could never imagine that, so it was the usual thing that America's a rich country, gold in the streets, and all kind of things.

EC: Did that change when you came over here?

SB: When we came here, we found everything was good. We knew the golden street is not true, but it took me maybe less than a year for me to feel I'm American--took me a while. Once I felt that, it was great.

EC: Do you miss anywhere you stayed in Europe?

SB: No.

EC: Who were your role models growing up?

SB: My father.

EC: How did he influence you?

SB: His honesty, his hard work; he was likable by older people, and it seems like I got his trait, being the same. Plus, I used to read a lot books in all the languages that I knew. I remember reading--in Germany, the last book I read was, in German, The Three Musketeers. In Russia the last book was--I can't read it now. The Polish books, I used to read a lot.

EC: Your father read a lot?

SB: No. Father, he just knew how to read just to get by because I don't think he went to school. He just learned a little bit.

EC: What was the most satisfying moment that you've had in your life?

SB: There are so many.

EC: List however many you want.

SB: I remember it was when we arrived on the ship to America in New York. We always knew the Statue of Liberty, and we arrived very early. It was still dark. I remember going on the ship, before they let us out, I look to the right, and I saw the Statue of Liberty shining with light. That stands out in my mind.

EC: Which cultures do you identify with now?

SB: I'm American.

EC: How important is religion to you?

SB: With religion, I evolved. When I grew up in Poland in the shtetl, when we went to shul, I was told that there is God and you have to be afraid of him and whatever it says in the Bible, I believed. Actually there was an instant when I must have been 5, maybe 6 years old on Yom Kippur. As I stayed in the synagogue with my parents--my mother was upstairs and separated from father--so I decided I'll go and see my uncle who wasn't far away and I'll visit them because it's a whole day. I walked into the house and saw him; he was eating and smoking a cigarette, and I couldn't understand why he didn't die on the spot because he was doing this on Yom Kippur. This is one thing, but since then I evolved, and now I believe in God my own way.

EC: So spiritual in your own way and not tied to one thing?

SB: I believe in God, but not in organized religion, but traditionally I'm still Jewish like I go to synagogue and pray--I do it only because of tradition.

EC: What would you consider to be the most important inventions that happened during your life?

SB: When I was younger or lately?

EC: Any time.

SB: I was impressed when I came to America, they had television. After a while I was able to buy a car, so that impressed me. I got married, had children, so just now the cell phone. This is such a fantastic thing, so you can go on and on. When I was a child, we didn't even have electricity; we didn't have a radio. The trucks and cars, the tires were solid rubber; we're going back a long way. So, this age now, going online and cell phones are really something to me.

EC: When you were in Russia, there weren't many of these inventions?

SB: In Russia, you didn't own--if you owned a radio, it was only a speaker with one station. The only thing you needed was a speaker to hook up, and that's all. They played music, were talking about the news and everything. One station, so we worked and worked, there was a speaker and the radio was on. You could listen--I could hear, during the war, what was going on with the Americans.

EC: Who was putting out these broadcasts?

SB: The government. It was one station for the whole Soviet Union.

EC: Going back a bit, what do you think of today's Russia?

SB: Actually, in some ways, I'm agreeing with Putin because in spite of everything that is going in Russia with the financial and other things, the Russians are with him about 80%, whatever he's doing. I understand that because for some reason, when I was there, Crimea was Russian, and all of the sudden, when the Soviet Union fell apart, they started giving away. Everything was breaking up, and all of the sudden, Crimea was given up to Ukraine. I had the resentment myself; I was like, 'Why did they do this?' in my mind. So I can imagine, living in Russia, how they felt. So now that Putin took the Crimea away, which I agree that he should be. Also, the investor in nations like NATO, they're pushing themselves with NATO to Poland and they're circling Russia, and especially in Ukraine, which is right in the heart of Russia. I knew this is wrong because they don't like that. So, I think the western countries overdid this. What they should do is go to Ukraine and say, 'Look, you are the country. You stay wherever you want to be but you're going to have to be NATO.' It's threatened Ukraine, so the east and west of Ukraine should make peace.

EC: You're obviously paying attention to Russian news. Do you pay attention to any of the news in Poland or Germany?

SB: A little bit, but for some reason, being I grew up in some ways in Russia, I can understand what's going on. If I were Russian, I would be against Ukraine being invaded, and I feel the same way right now.

EC: You would say that your time in Russia was rare because you had a positive outlook on it, right?

SB: Yeah because in the end of 1943, we lived in the outside of Gorki, which is Central Russia actually, and we had, relatively speaking, a good life for Russians, so my father worked, and I helped him. We had food, and I had friends, so it was okay.

EC: You said that the northern Russians were really nice.

SB: The people were different there. They were entirely different.

EC: How so?

SB: I found that in the big cities, the population is more aggressive. I don't know exactly how to say that, but in the north, they tried to help each other in a friendly way. You're not going to find this outside of Moscow or all those places.

EC: What do you think made it different?

SB: It's a different life. It's amazing--the people that I met there--they actually were the children of the parents that Stalin--when he came to power--he took all those rich farmers and sent them there, so in the beginning, they were the same as we were, in the gulags. They were that type of people; I don't know how to explain it, but it's entirely different. It could've changed by now.

EC: What do you remember the most about your sisters?

SB: My two sisters that were born in Poland, they were doing okay. One was going to school; the other one didn't. But then, in 1943, another sister of mine was born, and we all lived; everything is good. Did I help?

EC: You did. Thank you so much.

(End of Interview)