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Interview with Marion and Dr. George Rejebian
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Transcription
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Marion and George Rejebian
Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 1 December 2017
Interview Setting: Binghamton
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(Start of Interview)
00:05
JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University Special Collections Library Armenian oral history project. Today is No ̶ December 1, 2017. Can you please state your names for the record?
00:19
MR: Sure. I am Marion Rejebian and this is my husband George.
00:24
GR: I am-yeah I am Dr. George Rejebian.
00:28
JK: And where were you both born?
00:30
MR: I was born in the Bronx, New York City and George was born in Binghamton.
00:38
JK: And who are your parents and where were they born?
00:42
MR: Okay. My parents were Garabed and Dicranouhi Ekizian, E-K-I-Z-I-A-N. And they were born in Chomaklou [Turkish: Çomaklı], which is in Turkey which is a very small hilly village just south, south of the Erciyes Mountain [Turkish: Erciyes Dağı] and near to Syria. George, why do not you tell them?
01:14
GR: Oh yeah, my parents, my father came from Hadjin [Turkish: Saimbeyli], which is the town in the interior of Turkey near Adana. Adana is on the, on the Mediterranean. And it is, it is a little inland. It was a mountain village. And my mother came from Sivas, which is ̶ or Sebastia as they call which is a larger city, actually. And do you want to know the way they got here?
01:47
JK: Of course, yes.
01:48
GR: Oh, sure. Well, my, my mother went through the massacres, and she, with her grandmother and her brother and her sister. They did the death march they went from Turkey to Deir ez Zor, which is in, in Syria present. Well, it still was not Syria then. And then her brother died in route. And of course, the atrocities were terrible they were. They kept no fa ̶ food or water and had to improvise as best they could. I remember my mother telling me how they, you know, when the horses make footprints water gathers in there, they had to drink that water to stay alive, you know, to get to, but ultimately, she ended up in in Beirut in an orphanage. Her grandmother, she lost her brother on the death march her grandmother passed away, and her sister and her made it to an orphanage in Beirut. She was in that orphanage for several years, and then was sent to Marseille, France. And from Marseille she immigrated to Havana, Cuba. She worked there, whatever work she could get in through an arranged marriage, it was always in those days, you know, they, they would, they would know somebody and somebody apparently knew my father and mutual friend, you know, they mutually knew each other. So, he went to Havana on in those days, they used to have boats, gambling boats, you know, that used to go to Havana from New York, and he went to Havana on one of the gambling boats to get to meet her. And so they got married in Havana, and I still have the marriage license which is in Spanish [laughs] and, and they and brought her back. And then they settled they lived actually on Corbett Avenue which is where our church is and that was the Armenian ghetto at that time. That was where the biggest concentration of, of Armenians were. And the next best one was the first ward Clinton Street in that area. So that was the way they got here. And, and then apparently, they lived on Corbett avenue for some time. So that was how they got her. Do you want to go any further?
04:45
JK: Yes, of course. I am going back to the villages that your mom lived in. Was there any stories that she ̶ you recall her telling you or how old and how old was she when they had to leave?
04:59
GR: Oh when she, when she went through this?
05:01
JK: Yeah, do you ̶
05:03
GR: Oh she was, she was probably a young girl about eight or eight or ten years old, you know in that area and, and her sister who is Mangooshag's mother, do you know Manooshag Seraydarian? She is my mother's sister her, her mother and my mother were sisters. But um anyway, they there were a lot of atrocities along the way. I mean, the Turks. They, they herded them like animals. They did not give them any food. And some of them who had gold pieces and whatnot, were able to buy favors like, you know, maybe get some food and whatnot. But a lot of them died along the way I mean, in that, in that area and, and of course, hurt. I will step back a step, before she left Sivas, which is the town she came from. The Turks came in they rounded up all the all the men. And first, her father was, was a photographer and a teacher. And so they rounded up the more intelligent ones and they and they shot him in front of their families shot them or hang them. And so before she left, Sivas, she had she they witnessed this is this little kids so you know, every atrocity you could imagine it was, it was just horrible but everybody who has been through that death march tells a different story.
06:58
MR: But it is all the same really.
07:00
GR: Yeah, well, I mean a different way that they were affected. But and as for my father, my father lived in a in Hadjin, Hadjin and Zeytun were the two towns that fought against the Turks.
07:22
MR: Well many towns did, but they were ̶
07:23
GR: Well, the, the main ones, you know. And so it was almost like 100 percent Armenian village. And they knew that these massacres were coming in it was developing over a period of time. So they rounded up all the young boys on seventeen and under, and they snuck them off to Adana and got them on ships and sent them to the United States because they knew they would not ever be get killed, you know.
07:58
MR: And your father was one of them.
08:00
GR: My father was one of them. So he did not actually go through the massacres. But he came through Ellis Island. And he had ̶ he did not know any English. And he had a five-dollar gold piece, English gold piece in his pocket. And that was it. And they had to, you know, then like all the other ones like they, they just made it on their own. I mean, there was no assistance or no welfare or anything like that in those days. And my father tells me this story, how they would go and, and wait in lines for the union bosses to pick who was going to get work that day. And they never picked the Italians or the Jews or the Armenians. It was, you know, and so he said, we finally got tired of standing in line and going hungry and having nothing thing to do. And we went out and started our own businesses or we went to work. Yeah so yeah, that was how my how my father got here.
09:14
MR: George, did your father, your father was a cobbler? Did he know that trade when he came? Or did he learn it?
09:21
GR: Yeah he knew, he knew that trade. But he would not start his own business immediately work for Endicott Johnson, like a lot of the other Armenian immigrants did for a few years so he could get enough money to start his own shoe repair shop, you know, right. And just as your father did with the rugs, right?
09:45
MR: Do you want me to tell?
09:46
JK: Oh yes.
09:46
MR: As we go along, or just wait until ̶
09:49
JK: Do you want to go?
09:50
MR: No, I mean, I, I can ̶
09:52
GR: Yeah, I can go on and ̶ [laughs]
09:55
MR: All right well so my parents were, as I said, born and-both of them were born in Chomaklou. Um, they had an upper village and a lower village, you know. And so they were like, you know, these arranged marriages I think when they were born. Oh god that would be nice for Dicranouhi or something like that you know so they knew for a long time that they would probably get married to each other I guess. But what happened with my, my mom was, was only two years old when ̶ at the beginning of the massacre. And she went ̶ she and my father both went through the entire death march. My mother's parents were killed when she was, she was an orphan at two years of age, and her grandmother who was probably in her forties, you know, raised her and my, my great grandmother had a handicapped son. So I cannot even begin to imagine how that even worked but she had to carry him ̶ he was ̶ he would not walk. So they would walk a distance on the death march and then she would wait there with the other villagers the ̶ my mother would, and then she walked back and get the son put on his back and, and walk forward. I mean, it was just unbelievable kind of deprivation. They all went through the starvation and the lack of water and all of that, you know, and how they survived is just a mystery to me, but my, my father was a twelve years older than my mother. So he went through the same ̶ similar things the whole village was told to evacuate and, and start walking. And she finally ̶ and she went through Syria and different.
12:13
GR: That was-they went through Deir ez Zor, which is a desert.
12:16
MR: Yeah and she ended up in ̶ and my father too ̶ They both ended up in Beirut, Lebanon. And so she, she and my father managed to get through like a grade school education ̶ I would say my mother was very interested in in schoolwork and she, she had a beautiful Armenian penmanship ̶ beautiful, and they were always interested in education in the little village of Chomaklou, you know, would send their kids to America, like, like, like in George's situation. He was a little older. So they sent him to the states ̶
13:08
GR: Yeah my father was seventeen.
13:09
MR: Yeah. And the purpose always was to, if you could get an education fine, if not, then get a job and then send money back to them in order to get a little bit of aid because they had nothing, they really did not have anything but their land or their apartment or whatever. And so that was how they, they ̶ my mother was seventeen when she married my father, and my father had come first to the United States with that idea of, of either getting an education or a job at that point, he got a job. He was an oriental rug repairman. And, but he was a very ambitious person and he learned the trade of rug repairing. And then when he was able many years later after he brought, he brought his family over to the United States and settled them and then he went ̶ was very astute in his rug repairing and really learned the business and he had a boss who was Syrian and happened to like my father and always encouraged him. So eventually my father went off on his own and had his own loft, and not only repaired oriental rugs with expertise but also started a business where he would put an ad in the New York Post, the New York Post, it was existent in those days. I made one now ̶ You can imagine he would put the ad in the paper, highest cash prices paid for your oriental rugs. Okay? And then he would go, they did not have cars then that he could drive, I mean, he was not, did not have a license, he would take a bus or whatever get to wherever this apartment was, he sometimes had to go up four or five floors high. They did not even have many elevators in those buildings. And he would inspect the rugs. And if he felt that he could turn a quick profit, you know, like, a couple hundred dollars or whatever it is. He would buy the rug, bail it while he was there, get it down the stairs somehow. I mean, these are ̶ my father was not a big man. He was like, five, six [5’6”] and you know, not really a heavy man and he would bail the rug and then somehow get it down the stairs and then haul a cab or whatever ̶ However, he was able to do it. And then pretty soon in this little loft that he had at 276 Fifth Avenue where all the other merchants were ̶ he accumulated enough rugs where he was very successful, you know, and, and that was how he got his start.
16:30
GR: You know, an interesting thing about both our fathers came from Ellis Island. And, in fact, there was a wall there and their names are on there. And I think the year that they came through and all that, but my father tells me that, you know, they did not know a word of English and he said, we, we came into Ellis Island, they took us in a room and asked us a whole bunch of questions. And he said I ̶ he said the fellow might as well have been talking to the wall because he said I did not know what he was saying. So he said every question he asked me I said yes. [laughs] And the examiner finally said, well, you are okay, you are okay. Go ahead. And that was, that was how they ̶ and your father probably had a similar experience ̶ coming through Ellis ̶ have you been to Ellis Island ever? You should go sometime.
17:25
JK: I have been on the Staten Island ferry ̶ right and see the Statue of Liberty.
17:32
GR: It is well ̶ they have a museum ̶ exhibit it is very nice now.
17:34
MR: At the other side of the island.
17:39
GR: But anyway, so that was how they got here. And, and you know, they had to make their own way there was they did not have really any help except maybe their friends. In the beginning, the, the men would live together, and like there would be five or six and if they got if one of them had a job, then the rest of would eat ̶ could eat you know? Yeah, that was that kind of thing until they got going where they were they got themselves established enough to be able to support themselves, you know, but they did it usually it was a group situation where the group of would rent an apartment. And of course, there was a lot of funny stories about that. Maybe you do not want to hear those. [laughs]
18:31
JK: So going back to when both of your parents lived in their villages. Do they recall any stories? Before the gen ̶ the massacre had occurred and did they know when they were ̶ had to do the death march walk the death march, march. What was going on? Did they know that?
18:55
MR: The political scene you mean.
18:57
JK: Yeah, and ̶
18:58
MR: My parents did not but I think maybe George's father knew or some ̶ he was older. You know, my mother was only two. So what did she know? And I do not know that her grandmother really knew no, I really do not know.
19:14
GR: No, my father's, my father's family raised horses. And so of course, they, they went out and traded did a lot of trading. So, as a result, they had more of an opportunity to know what was going on politic ̶ politically in the country. And they felt that there was a massacre, you know, when 1896 and then they had won in 1915, the big one, and in 1915, because Hadjin where my father came from was such a remote village. They, they really were able to sort of survive that. And then in 9 ̶ the big battle of Hadjin in 1918, which was three years later with ̶ my father had left by then. But the Turks decided, well, you know, we have had enough of this. We were going to exterminate them and get rid of them. And so 6000 Hagjinses fought. I mean, you know, they had gotten supplies and arms and so forth. And they fought and only thirty-five survived. They were, they were just totally, totally annihilated, you know, by the Turk. So, but before that, my father, I mean, yeah, they did know. Tha ̶ the Turks never really treated them that well. I mean, they were like, second class citizens. They never were never treated as equals. And I think if you saw that movie ̶
20:53
JK: The promise?
20:53
MR: The promise?
20:55
GR: Yeah, you, you could get a feel of it ̶ they were how they were treated. You know, they, they were looked down on. And but they ̶ The church was very ̶ The church was as it, as it has kept Armenians together in this country. It was even more powerful there. I mean, that every village had its churches, and they, they were very devoted about how devout about how they kept their traditions and so forth and so on. So yeah, and I think they did, I am sure even in your father's village, they knew this thing with ̶
21:39
MR: I do not know, he never talked about politics so I do not really know.
21:42
GR: You know, despite what the Turks say, and you know this about, well, they were deportations or, or war refugees and all that. This was an organized plan from the highest sources in the government to exterminate the Armenians. They, they wanted to get rid of them. They did not want them in their country. And by whatever means they had to do it ̶
22:06
MR: Ethnic cleansing. That was what it was, yeah.
22:07
GR: Yeah, yeah. So it was a, it was an organized genocide. It really was. They still do not own up to it. But it was.
22:19
JK: Yes. Before that, before the two massacres occurred. Do you recall any stories from either of your families about what it was like living among the, with the Turkish people? You were saying how it was like, second, they were second class citizens. But anything else that you would like to add?
22:46
MR: They never really, you know.
22:47
GR: Well, we cannot personally tell you how it was.
22:50
JK: Yeah, of course.
22:50
GR: You know we were both born here. And so I do have, I mean, I have done a lot of research on it, and I do it. Papers telling what life and Hadjin was like and maybe I could give you that website. But if I can, you can look it up. It is about sixty-five pages. We were, we were ̶ an organization has done all this research and they tell you their, their medicine their, their folklore, how they did their holidays, you know when so forth. That if you want to really get into that, that might be interesting.
23:31
JK: Yeah of course I would love the see that thank you. And for both of your parents, did they obviously they spoke both Armenian did they also speak Turkish or ̶
23:43
MR: They spoke Turkish. Yes, of course. They spoke Turkish.
23:48
GR: Your father spoke some Arabic.
23:49
MR: Not much, you know, but uh, I am sure enough to get by.
23:54
GR: Now my father's family ̶ because they were in, they were in you know, business. They, they spoke ̶ they had to speak Turkish, Armenian and Arabic was, you know, quite prevalent in that area. But he spoke, he spoke Turkish; they had a dialect very unique to the village of Hadjin and he, he normally, he normally spoke that dialect or he spoke Turkish. He did not speak Armenian, true Armenian, Western Armenian we know what I learned my Armenian from my mother who was you know from Sivas from a city and her father was a teacher and so they I guess you could say that they were just as Spanish there was the Castilian Spanish and there was Catalan and all the other things so that was where I learned my Armenian and I did not know English when I started kindergarten, as many in my generation, you know, did and so I went to kindergarten and after a year or two they put me back. [laughs] Because they said, you know, he was stupid. Well in those days, there was no second language or anything if you did not know English, you know, you were stupid as far as the teachers were concerned. So I ̶ my father was furious and he was going to go down and, and raise the roof with the school and you know, why are you putting my boy back in my mother said, let me handle it. She said, I will take care of it. And all of a sudden she was taking baklava to the teacher make [indistinct] and all that. And lo and behold, they put me back in my class. And but I remember the ̶ it was kind of a pain learning English. I mean a real pain because I had an accent for a while until, you know, I really ̶
26:11
MR: And you mixed Armenian words with English words.
26:13
GR: Yeah I used to mix Armenian and English and of course that would the teacher would you know I want to go [speaking Armenian] you know, the teacher? Where do you want to go? And I think many of us are in that gen ̶ know, you know your uncle Art I guess he knew English better than that I did but, but you know at home my father spoke [the language from Hadjin] which I have a pretty good knowledge of and my mother spoke Armenian. And then the Turkish I learned was because they, when they did not want the kids to understand they spoke Turkish.
26:55
MR: And they swore in Turkish. [laughs]
26:59
GR: Yeah, and it is a phonetic language so it is very easy to pick up. Turkish is very ̶ it is relatively easy language to learn conversational. I do not know about the written because I cannot write it but yeah, so anyway, it was you know, we, we were first generation and that was a ̶ there were a lot of stigmas in those days that have gone away now, you know, they did not accept foreigners quite as readily as they do now and so forth. So yeah, I think but, but the prime focus I think that all of our parents had, and, and I think it is an Armenian thing is get an education. Because my mother used to always say, you know, they can, they can take all your money, they can take everything you have, but they cannot take what you know in your head out, which ̶ once it is in there, it is in there, you know? And so they were very education oriented. And they, wherever possible made sure that their kids got a college education, right?`
28:15
MR: Right.
28:16
GR: And ̶
28:17
MR: And I am, I was very proud of the fact that I was actually the first girl in my, you know, where the village that my parents came from, who settled in New York, that I knew of that even went to college or graduated from college. So, and I would not go away from home. My parents would not allow that. I mean, they did not even want you to go to camp. If it was not right next door, you know. So I went to Hunter College. I was fortunate that I got in, it was a very difficult school in those days to get in and I graduated I became a teacher, an elementary school teacher and loved it taught for a few years of my marriage and then the, the role of the woman in those days was to stay home with your kids once you had your own kids, you know, so, but you the education you use in raising your own children you know and, and so I never felt that that was a waste.
29:30
GR: And, and you know, even in our generation, there was a stigma against the ̶ for against, the immigrants and so forth because I, I encountered it several times like when, when I, I went through SUNY but after that I went to Georgetown. And, and I remember in a lot of interviews, Georgetown did not do this to me, but a lot of the places that I interviewed and it was very competitive. They would say, well, you know, what do you want to, what do you want to do this for? Why do not you be a shoemaker, like your father and so forth? You know, they put you down. And, and I felt that and really hurt, you know, but, but I guess we had a little of what our parents said, we stuck to it. And I went, you know, through Georgetown, and then Columbia and so forth. But education was a very, very important thing in our lives, you know, and we made sure that our kids got at least a college education.
30:44
JK: And growing up in you grew up in Bing-Binghamton and you grew up in New York City ̶ were there are a lot of Armenian people around you?
30:54
GR: Oh yes, yes our for, for one thing we always on the weekends. We always had picnics at State Park. Well, at first it was Ross Park. They used to do it because they did not have cars and so forth. But later on it was State Park, but you were pretty your social life was probably 90 percent with other Armenian kids, you know. And so, you had a lot in common you were very comfortable. The church was sort of the center of all activity, even though we did not have Badarak every week or in fact when I was like ten or twelve we only had Badarak every three months. And But still, you know, it was that was sort of the glue that held us together. And ̶
31:56
MR: Yes, and even in New York City where you know, I did not I as a as a child growing up I probably did not go to church any more frequently than George did even though I had a church you know to go to because you had to sit on a bus or, or a taxi or whatever to get there so I did not really I used to go to church probably on the holidays like a lot of people do now and, and then I did not go regularly to church until I was really able to take public transportation and, and go on my own and then I joined the choir and got more active with the youth and then joined ACYO, you know and, and most of my friends were are of Armenian background, too. And I do not know what else did you want. [laughs]
33:05
GR: Well one thing about the Armenians. I mean, we heard it from our parents, they loved this country. They were, they were like, so thankful that they had the opportunity to come here. And in fact, your father said that he knelt down and kissed the ground remember once and, and they wanted to assimilate even though they wanted to keep their traditions and their religion and everything, they wanted to assimilate, my mother went to, to school to learn English so she could become a citizen and you do not become ̶
33:42
MR: And that was true of our ̶ my parents as well.
33:45
GR: And I think that is one of the problems today is you see, like the Hispanics want to keep their language. They want to speak nothing but Spanish. They do not really want to assimilate and become Americans. But we had a very strong desire to do that. And, and I think it was a plus because it helped us to go further in the society that we had to compete and live in you know.
34:14
JK: And going back to that did your How did they keep like the Armenian traditions while trying to simulate Arme-American ̶
34:23
GR: Because they were they were always, you were always going to somebody's house somebody was coming to your house on Sundays there was always either a picnic or, or a function where they got together so that it was not like you saw Armenian kids once a month or at holidays; it was like this was your part of your life. I mean, you were with them all the time. You see, and they may and you were there that you made friends and even as you as we want ̶ went on into school and got you know, friends of all French whatever they are and everything. We still kept our ties. But we did not. But we did not like hold ourselves out as, as, as different. We tried to be like everybody. And I think that helped us that was a plus, you know. So that that is I think the way that they kept them together is probably the church number one, and then social activities. You know, by social activities, I mean, families came and went together. They did things together.
35:42
MR: But they also mingled with other non-Armenians, they mingled.
35:49
GR: Oh, yeah, well, they tried to assimilate. But there was language barrier, you know, they ̶
35:54
MR: Tried to assimilate without losing their Armenian heritage. They always were even in a big city, my parents were always very proud of, of who they were and where they came from, and the values that they had as Armenian Americans was always with them until the day they died. They were like that, but, you know, just as his parents went to English school to learn, you know, in the evenings, my mother used to go in the evenings ̶
36:30
GR: Yeah they really made an effort. They wanted to ̶
36:32
MR: They wanted very much to become citizens. And they were very proud of that, you know, and, and they always, were very, very grateful that they had the opportunity to be an American citizen to come to this country. And they said, you have no idea of ̶
36:54
GR: The fact that they were not living persecution every day.
36:57
MR: That is right, you know.
36:59
GR: You know.
37:00
MR: They always were very grateful to be here.
37:04
GR: And so I think, you know, it is like with our kids and, and so forth as the generations go the melting pot, you know, they, they get more and more but, but still, I think that Armenians have pretty much kept their, their traditions and they were all you know, there, there are certain things that are, that are sacred and we have kept most of it.
37:30
MR: We have but you know, we were only ̶ our parents were born overseas. So what are we first generation second generation, but as there was more and more intermarriage, you know, we, we noticed that the traditions are getting less and less, you know, and that was too bad. I hope that does not happen [indistinct] eventually.
37:53
GR: Yeah, you know they eventually they do not speak the language which is pretty sad because I think it is, it is good to have a second language. It is actually a ̶ an advantage. And, and because Armenian was my first language I still a lot of times I think in Armenian and I mostly pray in Armenian because that is how I learned to pray you know, but there is and every language has things that are very difficult to translate. It is not the same thing once you translate it you know? So you get the advantage of both really.
38:45
JK: And did you guys both know how to read and write Armenian or just speak?
38:49
MR: Well George did not have that advantage ̶
38:53
GR: We did not have the advantage of an Armenian school here. We never had that.
38:58
MR: They had an Armenian school you know, where they would have somebody come from some organization and, and teach Armenian but you know, I learned the alphabet and I am sure that if I really religiously read frequently I would have retained I have not read. I know the alphabet but I have not really forwarded that at all, you know, but I, I could easily go back and learn and but I speak it fluently and understand it very well.
39:39
JK: And do your children or and your grandchildren do they know Armenian or ̶
39:44
MR: Our ̶ my son is fluent in Armenian and then he was we spoke we had decided that we were going to teach our kids Armenian as their first language. And so we did that faithfully with Gary and then he married ̶
40:01
GR: Well and the Gary he married a first-generation ̶
40:04
MR: And then he married a first-generation girl so he heard Armenian being spoken all the time so he really can, in fact he has even taught himself how to read and write but Vivian can understand some of it but she does not really ̶ you know it is hard when, when like our son was three years old and going on to nursery school then Natalie I mean Vivian was born and you, you start switching to the English I was not able to do it as well.
40:40
GR: Yeah but see Gary's-both of Gary's boys are like they are acolytes they serve on the altar ̶
40:46
MR: Oh yeah we have kept out Armenian traditions.
40:48
GR: And they have stayed close and in fact their younger, their younger one they adopted from Armenia. The, the first one, our first grandson is, is theirs and the other one they went to Armenia and adopted him. He looks just like us you would not tell the difference. [laughs] But it is very interesting and he is ̶ oh he is just great I mean he is ̶
41:17
MR: Seventeen now.
41:18
GR: Yeah soccer player and everything just good now Viv-and Vivian has-Gar-so Gary has two boys and Vivian has a daughter and a son. The daughter just graduated from Boston College last year the son is a junior at Fairfield.
41:38
MR: University.
41:39
GR: So I do not know how far you want to go with this but ̶
41:46
MR: Our daughter became an Orthodontist like her father and so you know we're very proud of our children and grandchildren.
41:58
Yes, I see. So going back to raising your family earlier on ̶ what was it important for you to teach them the Armenian culture like ̶
42:09
MR: Well it was natural.
42:11
JK: Natural.
42:11
MR: It was always very natural. You know, I mean.
42:14
GR: And like you were, when there was church, we were expected to go, it was not. I mean, they did not say do you want to go to church to today.
42:23
MR: No and, and we raise our children with the church, I mean, we they, they always went to church whenever we had church, and now.
42:34
GR: Like our generation we all sung in the church choir, because you were expected to ̶
42:41
MR: Well, you knew they needed you. [laughs]
42:44
GR: Not it was it was expected and ̶
42:49
MR: And Vivian our daughter, our son married in Armenian and Ar-American and our daughter married and Armenian American as well. So they, have been able to keep more of the Armenian traditions because, you know, it is, it is they are around Armenians a lot, but they are also around non Armenians too. So I do not know, I do not know how to say that.
43:20
GR: Well, and I, I think there is something to be said about if you marry someone that has that you have a lot in common with, there is a lot better chances that that marriage is going to work out. If you are like night and day. You do not really like we can make jokes about each other sometimes. About our fe ̶ some Armenian things and because I mean, she is no different than me. You do not get offended. But if there is a big difference, sometimes they do not understand where you are coming from and you do not understand where they are coming from, you know?
44:05
JK: And how did you, you two meet it and before I get in ̶ before you get into that, do you know you wanted to marry another Armenian or ̶
44:14
MR: Well, it was sort of expected you know, and in our case it worked out but I think that ̶
44:26
GR: Well, we met we met in a very, it was kind of bizarre. I was at Georgetown ̶
44:35
MR: Dental school.
44:36
GR: Yeah in dental school and also in a Navy program.
44:39
MR: Right.
44:40
GR: And I, I served five years in the Navy after my education but anyway because there was the feeling that I always wanted to go to church if it was available. I was going to the when every opportunity I had ̶ I went to the Armenian church in Washington, you know, and at that time, they did not even have a church building. It was in a basement where they had an altar and the priest used to priest used to come every week and so forth. So her brother was in the Navy, and he was stationed in Washington. And so he used to come to church. [laughs] So, so we did not really know each other, meet each other, particularly but the church organist had a party and invited all the younger people. And so I met her brother, and got to know him pretty well and we became pretty good friends. So, one weekend, he said, “Why do not you come and I will show you?” I did not know New York City that well, he said, “Why do not you come to New York City?” And, and he said, “We will go out” and he said, “I will get a couple of dates and you know, and so forth and so on.” So, so we, we took the train, we went to New York, and he said, “Well, I want to go home and clean up before we go out.” So we went to her house, and, and I met her then that was the first time I met her. And so he said, well, I am ready. Let us go. And I said, “You know, I got a stomachache. I think I am going to, I think I am going to stay here and just visit with your family.”
46:27
MR: I was seventeen.
46:29
GR: I wanted to get to know her better.
46:31
MR: And George is six and a half years older than me. And so I was only seventeen and a freshman in college. And so Harry, my brother did not have any thoughts even [laughs] see to me. How does this kid's sister five years or six years is a lot a big difference at that stage in your life. And but we got to know each other and he would ̶
46:59
Yeah, we dated on and off for four years till you finished college.
47:03
Well he did not come frequently. So if he came once in the summer, then he had asked me to hold New Year's Eve for them or something, you know.
47:13
GR: So then I did my internship in the Navy. And so they told me that they would, they would send me to California, you know, to the Naval Hospital there. And one of my friends was going to go to the Naval Hospital in Philadelphia. So I, I wanted to be where I could get to see her. So we got the Navy to agree to let me take his slot in Philadelphia and he would go to California.
47:49
JK: Oh my goodness.
47:50
MR: You were crazy [laughs] I would have gone to California.
47:58
GR: Anyway, that, that was the way we met. And it was not it was not arranged or anything like that, like our parents.
48:04
MR: No. And it was not. I mean, I was determined to finish college. So, I mean, that was four years that we were just seeing each other occasionally, but we ̶
48:16
GR: Yeah but I was in the Navy then we got married.
48:21
MR: And then when he got his internship in Philadelphia, and he was coming frequently to the house and you know, then we really got much more serious.
48:32
GR: Okay, let us let her go on with the questions.
48:34
JK: Oh yeah ̶ and so going back to Armenian culture. What do you think is the most important things about Armenia that really make us strong and what helped Armenian people survive?
48:51
GR: I think the cul ̶ well, I think that is an easy one. I think the culture is very, very much focused around the church and the traditions.
49:00
MR: And family, and family.
49:03
GR: Family and the traditions of the church, you know. And I know they get ̶ where I am from, I have some accounts of what life was like when in my father's village, it was pretty much oriented around, around their, around the church and, and the traditions of the church and so forth in the way they did holidays and so forth. And I would say probably, again, the church has always been the glue of keeping the Armenian people together.
49:41
MR: You have to understand that we did not have TV or anything, and their entertainment was getting together with each other and in nice weather, it would be even in New York City, a big city, we would go to Van Cortlandt Park, and have picnics, you know, occasionally not as frequently as George did here in Binghamton. But ̶
50:03
GR: Well they did, they did a lot of things like where the parents would come together, the kids would get up and say poems or they would sing, and you know, it was very much family-oriented. And so I guess maybe does that answer your question?
50:21
JK: Yes, of course. And what about the do you think the language and the homeland are just as important as the church or a little less?
50:31
MR: Now? You mean now?
50:33
JK: Yeah.
50:34
GR: You mean, Armenia now? All right. I think you have to understand that Armenia was under Soviet rule for forty years. And in this in the communists, outlawed churches, I mean, they closed all the churches down. They made them museums. The Armenian Church survived because they have been in Etchmiadzin for, for ̶
51:03
MR: Many centuries since seven hundred or six hundred.
51:06
GR: So, so the, the Russians sort of took an attitude, well, we are not going to, we are not going to help you, we are not going to do anything to help you. But we will not do anything to hurt you as long as you stay in line, you know, if you do anything against us, we will get rid of you. So, so Etchmiadzin was able to survive very well. And because we went there in (19)72, when it was under Soviet when it was Soviet Armenia, and we asked, my host was another doctor, who was a member of the Russian politburo, the communist politburo, you know, so we said, well, we would like to meet the [indistinct]. And he knew the [indistinct]. He said, I do not go to church. But he said, I will take you there and so forth. So as a result of that, I think religion got very much diluted. I do not think that there is the well there still is they are still very devoted to their churches, but ̶
52:17
MR: Well not ̶ they are devoted to the churches, but it is just like in ̶
52:23
GR: But maybe it is not as intense as it was.
52:27
JK: And have you ever been to the villages that your parents grew up in?
52:32
MR: No, unfortunately, we, we only went to Armenia and Lebanon. We tried when our kids were young when they were ten and, and eight or something like that. We went to Beirut, Lebanon ̶
52:48
GR: Well we went to Istanbul first ̶
52:50
MR: Where yeah where ̶
52:51
GR: Because her father was in the wrong business. And he was doing business there. You know that? Yeah. And then from Istanbul, we went to Beirut, because Beirut was kind of the Armenian. I think ̶
53:03
MR: Where they all ̶ many of them had settled. Yeah. And where my parents got married from, you know, and so we did that. And then we went to Armenia for a few days. And it was, as George said, it was under Soviet rule. So ̶
53:20
GR: Yeah, I had an invitation to lecture in their, at their medical school. So it was, you know, it was sanctioned by the government, but you always had to, had to be with somebody, you would not go off on your own. And, in fact, this is a funny story. We stayed in the hotel Armenia, and they had a Russian person on every floor. They spoke Armenian very well. But they had a Russian woman usually. And we were going out with some friends and they said, “Well, you know, you can leave the kids.” They were like ten and twelve there.
54:00
MR: We would never do it today but we did it then.
54:03
GR: Yeah you can leave and we will look after them. So, we, we came back. And we said to her, well, you know, how di ̶ how were the children's? Awful! [laughs] We said what happened, you know, apparently, all the rooms were bugged. You know, so they heard all this jusch-jusch-jusch up in the ceiling. So Gary gets on a chair and he gets pfffftttt [laughs] they did not take that too kindly.
54:37
JK: Oh my goodness that is amazing wow.
54:40
GR: So they were under a very totalitarian regime for forty years and it affected everything you know, I mean, that youth grew up in that environment so.
54:53
MR: As far as the language is concerned, there is Eastern dialect and in the Armenian language in Russia they now they speak the eastern dialect. And we ̶
55:07
GR: Speak Western ̶
55:08
MR: Speak the western dialect it is very difficult for those of us who speak the Western dialect like to really understand a lot of the words that so we do not really communicate that well.
55:21
GR: And the church or courses neither read has what they call[indistinct] ̶ It has its own language.
55:27
MR: The old language, the old ̶
55:28
GR: Which even we do not understand.
55:31
MR: Well, we do now because, you know, go to church frequently, but ̶
55:36
GR: Excuse me.
55:38
JK: Okay. And just one more question. How would you guys identify yourself as Armenian American or American Armenian?
55:47
MR & GR: American-Armenian.
55:49
MR: For sure. We are American of Armenian descent. We are very proud of our American and Armenian heritage, you know.
56:01
GR: You know, it is Armenian, it is our heritage, and we hope that our kids will remember their heritage. I mean, we are all Americans, of course, and that is our primary loyalty.
56:11
MR: And our grandchildren all of them, all four of them are proud of their Armenian heritage but, you know, I do not know whether how much of this will linger on in future generations ̶
56:23
GR: I do not think they will ever lose the taste for the foods.
56:26
MR: Yeah, that is for sure.
56:29
JK: Yes, they are the best.
56:30
MR: But they are all proud of their heritage.
56:33
GR: And we are.
56:36
JK: Of course. And is there anything else you would like to add to this interview or anything he would want to mention?
56:44
GR: What is that Marion?
56:44
MR: Is there anything else that you would like to mention or for this interview? She is almost through.
56:51
GR: Well, I think that probably as a whole just as, as our parents, you know, came here with actually no money. No, they did not know the language and everything. But they had the drive to get ahead. And I think they put that into their kids because most of the kids have, have, you know, been become very successful in American society, as you know, from all the I mean, we have a lot of Armenians in, in very important places in this country. So I think that our desire is that you know, our, our kids keep that same initiative.
57:42
JK: Yes.
57:44
MR: And-and instill the love of education in their children and you know ̶
57:51
GR: To try, to try to do better, you know, try to do your best and try to do better and,
and not, not rely on government to take care of us. We want to take care of ourselves, you know, so.
58:09
JK: Of course. All right. Well, thank you so much.
58:12
MR: You are very welcome.
(End of Interview)
Interview with: Marion and George Rejebian
Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 1 December 2017
Interview Setting: Binghamton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:05
JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University Special Collections Library Armenian oral history project. Today is No ̶ December 1, 2017. Can you please state your names for the record?
00:19
MR: Sure. I am Marion Rejebian and this is my husband George.
00:24
GR: I am-yeah I am Dr. George Rejebian.
00:28
JK: And where were you both born?
00:30
MR: I was born in the Bronx, New York City and George was born in Binghamton.
00:38
JK: And who are your parents and where were they born?
00:42
MR: Okay. My parents were Garabed and Dicranouhi Ekizian, E-K-I-Z-I-A-N. And they were born in Chomaklou [Turkish: Çomaklı], which is in Turkey which is a very small hilly village just south, south of the Erciyes Mountain [Turkish: Erciyes Dağı] and near to Syria. George, why do not you tell them?
01:14
GR: Oh yeah, my parents, my father came from Hadjin [Turkish: Saimbeyli], which is the town in the interior of Turkey near Adana. Adana is on the, on the Mediterranean. And it is, it is a little inland. It was a mountain village. And my mother came from Sivas, which is ̶ or Sebastia as they call which is a larger city, actually. And do you want to know the way they got here?
01:47
JK: Of course, yes.
01:48
GR: Oh, sure. Well, my, my mother went through the massacres, and she, with her grandmother and her brother and her sister. They did the death march they went from Turkey to Deir ez Zor, which is in, in Syria present. Well, it still was not Syria then. And then her brother died in route. And of course, the atrocities were terrible they were. They kept no fa ̶ food or water and had to improvise as best they could. I remember my mother telling me how they, you know, when the horses make footprints water gathers in there, they had to drink that water to stay alive, you know, to get to, but ultimately, she ended up in in Beirut in an orphanage. Her grandmother, she lost her brother on the death march her grandmother passed away, and her sister and her made it to an orphanage in Beirut. She was in that orphanage for several years, and then was sent to Marseille, France. And from Marseille she immigrated to Havana, Cuba. She worked there, whatever work she could get in through an arranged marriage, it was always in those days, you know, they, they would, they would know somebody and somebody apparently knew my father and mutual friend, you know, they mutually knew each other. So, he went to Havana on in those days, they used to have boats, gambling boats, you know, that used to go to Havana from New York, and he went to Havana on one of the gambling boats to get to meet her. And so they got married in Havana, and I still have the marriage license which is in Spanish [laughs] and, and they and brought her back. And then they settled they lived actually on Corbett Avenue which is where our church is and that was the Armenian ghetto at that time. That was where the biggest concentration of, of Armenians were. And the next best one was the first ward Clinton Street in that area. So that was the way they got here. And, and then apparently, they lived on Corbett avenue for some time. So that was how they got her. Do you want to go any further?
04:45
JK: Yes, of course. I am going back to the villages that your mom lived in. Was there any stories that she ̶ you recall her telling you or how old and how old was she when they had to leave?
04:59
GR: Oh when she, when she went through this?
05:01
JK: Yeah, do you ̶
05:03
GR: Oh she was, she was probably a young girl about eight or eight or ten years old, you know in that area and, and her sister who is Mangooshag's mother, do you know Manooshag Seraydarian? She is my mother's sister her, her mother and my mother were sisters. But um anyway, they there were a lot of atrocities along the way. I mean, the Turks. They, they herded them like animals. They did not give them any food. And some of them who had gold pieces and whatnot, were able to buy favors like, you know, maybe get some food and whatnot. But a lot of them died along the way I mean, in that, in that area and, and of course, hurt. I will step back a step, before she left Sivas, which is the town she came from. The Turks came in they rounded up all the all the men. And first, her father was, was a photographer and a teacher. And so they rounded up the more intelligent ones and they and they shot him in front of their families shot them or hang them. And so before she left, Sivas, she had she they witnessed this is this little kids so you know, every atrocity you could imagine it was, it was just horrible but everybody who has been through that death march tells a different story.
06:58
MR: But it is all the same really.
07:00
GR: Yeah, well, I mean a different way that they were affected. But and as for my father, my father lived in a in Hadjin, Hadjin and Zeytun were the two towns that fought against the Turks.
07:22
MR: Well many towns did, but they were ̶
07:23
GR: Well, the, the main ones, you know. And so it was almost like 100 percent Armenian village. And they knew that these massacres were coming in it was developing over a period of time. So they rounded up all the young boys on seventeen and under, and they snuck them off to Adana and got them on ships and sent them to the United States because they knew they would not ever be get killed, you know.
07:58
MR: And your father was one of them.
08:00
GR: My father was one of them. So he did not actually go through the massacres. But he came through Ellis Island. And he had ̶ he did not know any English. And he had a five-dollar gold piece, English gold piece in his pocket. And that was it. And they had to, you know, then like all the other ones like they, they just made it on their own. I mean, there was no assistance or no welfare or anything like that in those days. And my father tells me this story, how they would go and, and wait in lines for the union bosses to pick who was going to get work that day. And they never picked the Italians or the Jews or the Armenians. It was, you know, and so he said, we finally got tired of standing in line and going hungry and having nothing thing to do. And we went out and started our own businesses or we went to work. Yeah so yeah, that was how my how my father got here.
09:14
MR: George, did your father, your father was a cobbler? Did he know that trade when he came? Or did he learn it?
09:21
GR: Yeah he knew, he knew that trade. But he would not start his own business immediately work for Endicott Johnson, like a lot of the other Armenian immigrants did for a few years so he could get enough money to start his own shoe repair shop, you know, right. And just as your father did with the rugs, right?
09:45
MR: Do you want me to tell?
09:46
JK: Oh yes.
09:46
MR: As we go along, or just wait until ̶
09:49
JK: Do you want to go?
09:50
MR: No, I mean, I, I can ̶
09:52
GR: Yeah, I can go on and ̶ [laughs]
09:55
MR: All right well so my parents were, as I said, born and-both of them were born in Chomaklou. Um, they had an upper village and a lower village, you know. And so they were like, you know, these arranged marriages I think when they were born. Oh god that would be nice for Dicranouhi or something like that you know so they knew for a long time that they would probably get married to each other I guess. But what happened with my, my mom was, was only two years old when ̶ at the beginning of the massacre. And she went ̶ she and my father both went through the entire death march. My mother's parents were killed when she was, she was an orphan at two years of age, and her grandmother who was probably in her forties, you know, raised her and my, my great grandmother had a handicapped son. So I cannot even begin to imagine how that even worked but she had to carry him ̶ he was ̶ he would not walk. So they would walk a distance on the death march and then she would wait there with the other villagers the ̶ my mother would, and then she walked back and get the son put on his back and, and walk forward. I mean, it was just unbelievable kind of deprivation. They all went through the starvation and the lack of water and all of that, you know, and how they survived is just a mystery to me, but my, my father was a twelve years older than my mother. So he went through the same ̶ similar things the whole village was told to evacuate and, and start walking. And she finally ̶ and she went through Syria and different.
12:13
GR: That was-they went through Deir ez Zor, which is a desert.
12:16
MR: Yeah and she ended up in ̶ and my father too ̶ They both ended up in Beirut, Lebanon. And so she, she and my father managed to get through like a grade school education ̶ I would say my mother was very interested in in schoolwork and she, she had a beautiful Armenian penmanship ̶ beautiful, and they were always interested in education in the little village of Chomaklou, you know, would send their kids to America, like, like, like in George's situation. He was a little older. So they sent him to the states ̶
13:08
GR: Yeah my father was seventeen.
13:09
MR: Yeah. And the purpose always was to, if you could get an education fine, if not, then get a job and then send money back to them in order to get a little bit of aid because they had nothing, they really did not have anything but their land or their apartment or whatever. And so that was how they, they ̶ my mother was seventeen when she married my father, and my father had come first to the United States with that idea of, of either getting an education or a job at that point, he got a job. He was an oriental rug repairman. And, but he was a very ambitious person and he learned the trade of rug repairing. And then when he was able many years later after he brought, he brought his family over to the United States and settled them and then he went ̶ was very astute in his rug repairing and really learned the business and he had a boss who was Syrian and happened to like my father and always encouraged him. So eventually my father went off on his own and had his own loft, and not only repaired oriental rugs with expertise but also started a business where he would put an ad in the New York Post, the New York Post, it was existent in those days. I made one now ̶ You can imagine he would put the ad in the paper, highest cash prices paid for your oriental rugs. Okay? And then he would go, they did not have cars then that he could drive, I mean, he was not, did not have a license, he would take a bus or whatever get to wherever this apartment was, he sometimes had to go up four or five floors high. They did not even have many elevators in those buildings. And he would inspect the rugs. And if he felt that he could turn a quick profit, you know, like, a couple hundred dollars or whatever it is. He would buy the rug, bail it while he was there, get it down the stairs somehow. I mean, these are ̶ my father was not a big man. He was like, five, six [5’6”] and you know, not really a heavy man and he would bail the rug and then somehow get it down the stairs and then haul a cab or whatever ̶ However, he was able to do it. And then pretty soon in this little loft that he had at 276 Fifth Avenue where all the other merchants were ̶ he accumulated enough rugs where he was very successful, you know, and, and that was how he got his start.
16:30
GR: You know, an interesting thing about both our fathers came from Ellis Island. And, in fact, there was a wall there and their names are on there. And I think the year that they came through and all that, but my father tells me that, you know, they did not know a word of English and he said, we, we came into Ellis Island, they took us in a room and asked us a whole bunch of questions. And he said I ̶ he said the fellow might as well have been talking to the wall because he said I did not know what he was saying. So he said every question he asked me I said yes. [laughs] And the examiner finally said, well, you are okay, you are okay. Go ahead. And that was, that was how they ̶ and your father probably had a similar experience ̶ coming through Ellis ̶ have you been to Ellis Island ever? You should go sometime.
17:25
JK: I have been on the Staten Island ferry ̶ right and see the Statue of Liberty.
17:32
GR: It is well ̶ they have a museum ̶ exhibit it is very nice now.
17:34
MR: At the other side of the island.
17:39
GR: But anyway, so that was how they got here. And, and you know, they had to make their own way there was they did not have really any help except maybe their friends. In the beginning, the, the men would live together, and like there would be five or six and if they got if one of them had a job, then the rest of would eat ̶ could eat you know? Yeah, that was that kind of thing until they got going where they were they got themselves established enough to be able to support themselves, you know, but they did it usually it was a group situation where the group of would rent an apartment. And of course, there was a lot of funny stories about that. Maybe you do not want to hear those. [laughs]
18:31
JK: So going back to when both of your parents lived in their villages. Do they recall any stories? Before the gen ̶ the massacre had occurred and did they know when they were ̶ had to do the death march walk the death march, march. What was going on? Did they know that?
18:55
MR: The political scene you mean.
18:57
JK: Yeah, and ̶
18:58
MR: My parents did not but I think maybe George's father knew or some ̶ he was older. You know, my mother was only two. So what did she know? And I do not know that her grandmother really knew no, I really do not know.
19:14
GR: No, my father's, my father's family raised horses. And so of course, they, they went out and traded did a lot of trading. So, as a result, they had more of an opportunity to know what was going on politic ̶ politically in the country. And they felt that there was a massacre, you know, when 1896 and then they had won in 1915, the big one, and in 1915, because Hadjin where my father came from was such a remote village. They, they really were able to sort of survive that. And then in 9 ̶ the big battle of Hadjin in 1918, which was three years later with ̶ my father had left by then. But the Turks decided, well, you know, we have had enough of this. We were going to exterminate them and get rid of them. And so 6000 Hagjinses fought. I mean, you know, they had gotten supplies and arms and so forth. And they fought and only thirty-five survived. They were, they were just totally, totally annihilated, you know, by the Turk. So, but before that, my father, I mean, yeah, they did know. Tha ̶ the Turks never really treated them that well. I mean, they were like, second class citizens. They never were never treated as equals. And I think if you saw that movie ̶
20:53
JK: The promise?
20:53
MR: The promise?
20:55
GR: Yeah, you, you could get a feel of it ̶ they were how they were treated. You know, they, they were looked down on. And but they ̶ The church was very ̶ The church was as it, as it has kept Armenians together in this country. It was even more powerful there. I mean, that every village had its churches, and they, they were very devoted about how devout about how they kept their traditions and so forth and so on. So yeah, and I think they did, I am sure even in your father's village, they knew this thing with ̶
21:39
MR: I do not know, he never talked about politics so I do not really know.
21:42
GR: You know, despite what the Turks say, and you know this about, well, they were deportations or, or war refugees and all that. This was an organized plan from the highest sources in the government to exterminate the Armenians. They, they wanted to get rid of them. They did not want them in their country. And by whatever means they had to do it ̶
22:06
MR: Ethnic cleansing. That was what it was, yeah.
22:07
GR: Yeah, yeah. So it was a, it was an organized genocide. It really was. They still do not own up to it. But it was.
22:19
JK: Yes. Before that, before the two massacres occurred. Do you recall any stories from either of your families about what it was like living among the, with the Turkish people? You were saying how it was like, second, they were second class citizens. But anything else that you would like to add?
22:46
MR: They never really, you know.
22:47
GR: Well, we cannot personally tell you how it was.
22:50
JK: Yeah, of course.
22:50
GR: You know we were both born here. And so I do have, I mean, I have done a lot of research on it, and I do it. Papers telling what life and Hadjin was like and maybe I could give you that website. But if I can, you can look it up. It is about sixty-five pages. We were, we were ̶ an organization has done all this research and they tell you their, their medicine their, their folklore, how they did their holidays, you know when so forth. That if you want to really get into that, that might be interesting.
23:31
JK: Yeah of course I would love the see that thank you. And for both of your parents, did they obviously they spoke both Armenian did they also speak Turkish or ̶
23:43
MR: They spoke Turkish. Yes, of course. They spoke Turkish.
23:48
GR: Your father spoke some Arabic.
23:49
MR: Not much, you know, but uh, I am sure enough to get by.
23:54
GR: Now my father's family ̶ because they were in, they were in you know, business. They, they spoke ̶ they had to speak Turkish, Armenian and Arabic was, you know, quite prevalent in that area. But he spoke, he spoke Turkish; they had a dialect very unique to the village of Hadjin and he, he normally, he normally spoke that dialect or he spoke Turkish. He did not speak Armenian, true Armenian, Western Armenian we know what I learned my Armenian from my mother who was you know from Sivas from a city and her father was a teacher and so they I guess you could say that they were just as Spanish there was the Castilian Spanish and there was Catalan and all the other things so that was where I learned my Armenian and I did not know English when I started kindergarten, as many in my generation, you know, did and so I went to kindergarten and after a year or two they put me back. [laughs] Because they said, you know, he was stupid. Well in those days, there was no second language or anything if you did not know English, you know, you were stupid as far as the teachers were concerned. So I ̶ my father was furious and he was going to go down and, and raise the roof with the school and you know, why are you putting my boy back in my mother said, let me handle it. She said, I will take care of it. And all of a sudden she was taking baklava to the teacher make [indistinct] and all that. And lo and behold, they put me back in my class. And but I remember the ̶ it was kind of a pain learning English. I mean a real pain because I had an accent for a while until, you know, I really ̶
26:11
MR: And you mixed Armenian words with English words.
26:13
GR: Yeah I used to mix Armenian and English and of course that would the teacher would you know I want to go [speaking Armenian] you know, the teacher? Where do you want to go? And I think many of us are in that gen ̶ know, you know your uncle Art I guess he knew English better than that I did but, but you know at home my father spoke [the language from Hadjin] which I have a pretty good knowledge of and my mother spoke Armenian. And then the Turkish I learned was because they, when they did not want the kids to understand they spoke Turkish.
26:55
MR: And they swore in Turkish. [laughs]
26:59
GR: Yeah, and it is a phonetic language so it is very easy to pick up. Turkish is very ̶ it is relatively easy language to learn conversational. I do not know about the written because I cannot write it but yeah, so anyway, it was you know, we, we were first generation and that was a ̶ there were a lot of stigmas in those days that have gone away now, you know, they did not accept foreigners quite as readily as they do now and so forth. So yeah, I think but, but the prime focus I think that all of our parents had, and, and I think it is an Armenian thing is get an education. Because my mother used to always say, you know, they can, they can take all your money, they can take everything you have, but they cannot take what you know in your head out, which ̶ once it is in there, it is in there, you know? And so they were very education oriented. And they, wherever possible made sure that their kids got a college education, right?`
28:15
MR: Right.
28:16
GR: And ̶
28:17
MR: And I am, I was very proud of the fact that I was actually the first girl in my, you know, where the village that my parents came from, who settled in New York, that I knew of that even went to college or graduated from college. So, and I would not go away from home. My parents would not allow that. I mean, they did not even want you to go to camp. If it was not right next door, you know. So I went to Hunter College. I was fortunate that I got in, it was a very difficult school in those days to get in and I graduated I became a teacher, an elementary school teacher and loved it taught for a few years of my marriage and then the, the role of the woman in those days was to stay home with your kids once you had your own kids, you know, so, but you the education you use in raising your own children you know and, and so I never felt that that was a waste.
29:30
GR: And, and you know, even in our generation, there was a stigma against the ̶ for against, the immigrants and so forth because I, I encountered it several times like when, when I, I went through SUNY but after that I went to Georgetown. And, and I remember in a lot of interviews, Georgetown did not do this to me, but a lot of the places that I interviewed and it was very competitive. They would say, well, you know, what do you want to, what do you want to do this for? Why do not you be a shoemaker, like your father and so forth? You know, they put you down. And, and I felt that and really hurt, you know, but, but I guess we had a little of what our parents said, we stuck to it. And I went, you know, through Georgetown, and then Columbia and so forth. But education was a very, very important thing in our lives, you know, and we made sure that our kids got at least a college education.
30:44
JK: And growing up in you grew up in Bing-Binghamton and you grew up in New York City ̶ were there are a lot of Armenian people around you?
30:54
GR: Oh yes, yes our for, for one thing we always on the weekends. We always had picnics at State Park. Well, at first it was Ross Park. They used to do it because they did not have cars and so forth. But later on it was State Park, but you were pretty your social life was probably 90 percent with other Armenian kids, you know. And so, you had a lot in common you were very comfortable. The church was sort of the center of all activity, even though we did not have Badarak every week or in fact when I was like ten or twelve we only had Badarak every three months. And But still, you know, it was that was sort of the glue that held us together. And ̶
31:56
MR: Yes, and even in New York City where you know, I did not I as a as a child growing up I probably did not go to church any more frequently than George did even though I had a church you know to go to because you had to sit on a bus or, or a taxi or whatever to get there so I did not really I used to go to church probably on the holidays like a lot of people do now and, and then I did not go regularly to church until I was really able to take public transportation and, and go on my own and then I joined the choir and got more active with the youth and then joined ACYO, you know and, and most of my friends were are of Armenian background, too. And I do not know what else did you want. [laughs]
33:05
GR: Well one thing about the Armenians. I mean, we heard it from our parents, they loved this country. They were, they were like, so thankful that they had the opportunity to come here. And in fact, your father said that he knelt down and kissed the ground remember once and, and they wanted to assimilate even though they wanted to keep their traditions and their religion and everything, they wanted to assimilate, my mother went to, to school to learn English so she could become a citizen and you do not become ̶
33:42
MR: And that was true of our ̶ my parents as well.
33:45
GR: And I think that is one of the problems today is you see, like the Hispanics want to keep their language. They want to speak nothing but Spanish. They do not really want to assimilate and become Americans. But we had a very strong desire to do that. And, and I think it was a plus because it helped us to go further in the society that we had to compete and live in you know.
34:14
JK: And going back to that did your How did they keep like the Armenian traditions while trying to simulate Arme-American ̶
34:23
GR: Because they were they were always, you were always going to somebody's house somebody was coming to your house on Sundays there was always either a picnic or, or a function where they got together so that it was not like you saw Armenian kids once a month or at holidays; it was like this was your part of your life. I mean, you were with them all the time. You see, and they may and you were there that you made friends and even as you as we want ̶ went on into school and got you know, friends of all French whatever they are and everything. We still kept our ties. But we did not. But we did not like hold ourselves out as, as, as different. We tried to be like everybody. And I think that helped us that was a plus, you know. So that that is I think the way that they kept them together is probably the church number one, and then social activities. You know, by social activities, I mean, families came and went together. They did things together.
35:42
MR: But they also mingled with other non-Armenians, they mingled.
35:49
GR: Oh, yeah, well, they tried to assimilate. But there was language barrier, you know, they ̶
35:54
MR: Tried to assimilate without losing their Armenian heritage. They always were even in a big city, my parents were always very proud of, of who they were and where they came from, and the values that they had as Armenian Americans was always with them until the day they died. They were like that, but, you know, just as his parents went to English school to learn, you know, in the evenings, my mother used to go in the evenings ̶
36:30
GR: Yeah they really made an effort. They wanted to ̶
36:32
MR: They wanted very much to become citizens. And they were very proud of that, you know, and, and they always, were very, very grateful that they had the opportunity to be an American citizen to come to this country. And they said, you have no idea of ̶
36:54
GR: The fact that they were not living persecution every day.
36:57
MR: That is right, you know.
36:59
GR: You know.
37:00
MR: They always were very grateful to be here.
37:04
GR: And so I think, you know, it is like with our kids and, and so forth as the generations go the melting pot, you know, they, they get more and more but, but still, I think that Armenians have pretty much kept their, their traditions and they were all you know, there, there are certain things that are, that are sacred and we have kept most of it.
37:30
MR: We have but you know, we were only ̶ our parents were born overseas. So what are we first generation second generation, but as there was more and more intermarriage, you know, we, we noticed that the traditions are getting less and less, you know, and that was too bad. I hope that does not happen [indistinct] eventually.
37:53
GR: Yeah, you know they eventually they do not speak the language which is pretty sad because I think it is, it is good to have a second language. It is actually a ̶ an advantage. And, and because Armenian was my first language I still a lot of times I think in Armenian and I mostly pray in Armenian because that is how I learned to pray you know, but there is and every language has things that are very difficult to translate. It is not the same thing once you translate it you know? So you get the advantage of both really.
38:45
JK: And did you guys both know how to read and write Armenian or just speak?
38:49
MR: Well George did not have that advantage ̶
38:53
GR: We did not have the advantage of an Armenian school here. We never had that.
38:58
MR: They had an Armenian school you know, where they would have somebody come from some organization and, and teach Armenian but you know, I learned the alphabet and I am sure that if I really religiously read frequently I would have retained I have not read. I know the alphabet but I have not really forwarded that at all, you know, but I, I could easily go back and learn and but I speak it fluently and understand it very well.
39:39
JK: And do your children or and your grandchildren do they know Armenian or ̶
39:44
MR: Our ̶ my son is fluent in Armenian and then he was we spoke we had decided that we were going to teach our kids Armenian as their first language. And so we did that faithfully with Gary and then he married ̶
40:01
GR: Well and the Gary he married a first-generation ̶
40:04
MR: And then he married a first-generation girl so he heard Armenian being spoken all the time so he really can, in fact he has even taught himself how to read and write but Vivian can understand some of it but she does not really ̶ you know it is hard when, when like our son was three years old and going on to nursery school then Natalie I mean Vivian was born and you, you start switching to the English I was not able to do it as well.
40:40
GR: Yeah but see Gary's-both of Gary's boys are like they are acolytes they serve on the altar ̶
40:46
MR: Oh yeah we have kept out Armenian traditions.
40:48
GR: And they have stayed close and in fact their younger, their younger one they adopted from Armenia. The, the first one, our first grandson is, is theirs and the other one they went to Armenia and adopted him. He looks just like us you would not tell the difference. [laughs] But it is very interesting and he is ̶ oh he is just great I mean he is ̶
41:17
MR: Seventeen now.
41:18
GR: Yeah soccer player and everything just good now Viv-and Vivian has-Gar-so Gary has two boys and Vivian has a daughter and a son. The daughter just graduated from Boston College last year the son is a junior at Fairfield.
41:38
MR: University.
41:39
GR: So I do not know how far you want to go with this but ̶
41:46
MR: Our daughter became an Orthodontist like her father and so you know we're very proud of our children and grandchildren.
41:58
Yes, I see. So going back to raising your family earlier on ̶ what was it important for you to teach them the Armenian culture like ̶
42:09
MR: Well it was natural.
42:11
JK: Natural.
42:11
MR: It was always very natural. You know, I mean.
42:14
GR: And like you were, when there was church, we were expected to go, it was not. I mean, they did not say do you want to go to church to today.
42:23
MR: No and, and we raise our children with the church, I mean, we they, they always went to church whenever we had church, and now.
42:34
GR: Like our generation we all sung in the church choir, because you were expected to ̶
42:41
MR: Well, you knew they needed you. [laughs]
42:44
GR: Not it was it was expected and ̶
42:49
MR: And Vivian our daughter, our son married in Armenian and Ar-American and our daughter married and Armenian American as well. So they, have been able to keep more of the Armenian traditions because, you know, it is, it is they are around Armenians a lot, but they are also around non Armenians too. So I do not know, I do not know how to say that.
43:20
GR: Well, and I, I think there is something to be said about if you marry someone that has that you have a lot in common with, there is a lot better chances that that marriage is going to work out. If you are like night and day. You do not really like we can make jokes about each other sometimes. About our fe ̶ some Armenian things and because I mean, she is no different than me. You do not get offended. But if there is a big difference, sometimes they do not understand where you are coming from and you do not understand where they are coming from, you know?
44:05
JK: And how did you, you two meet it and before I get in ̶ before you get into that, do you know you wanted to marry another Armenian or ̶
44:14
MR: Well, it was sort of expected you know, and in our case it worked out but I think that ̶
44:26
GR: Well, we met we met in a very, it was kind of bizarre. I was at Georgetown ̶
44:35
MR: Dental school.
44:36
GR: Yeah in dental school and also in a Navy program.
44:39
MR: Right.
44:40
GR: And I, I served five years in the Navy after my education but anyway because there was the feeling that I always wanted to go to church if it was available. I was going to the when every opportunity I had ̶ I went to the Armenian church in Washington, you know, and at that time, they did not even have a church building. It was in a basement where they had an altar and the priest used to priest used to come every week and so forth. So her brother was in the Navy, and he was stationed in Washington. And so he used to come to church. [laughs] So, so we did not really know each other, meet each other, particularly but the church organist had a party and invited all the younger people. And so I met her brother, and got to know him pretty well and we became pretty good friends. So, one weekend, he said, “Why do not you come and I will show you?” I did not know New York City that well, he said, “Why do not you come to New York City?” And, and he said, “We will go out” and he said, “I will get a couple of dates and you know, and so forth and so on.” So, so we, we took the train, we went to New York, and he said, “Well, I want to go home and clean up before we go out.” So we went to her house, and, and I met her then that was the first time I met her. And so he said, well, I am ready. Let us go. And I said, “You know, I got a stomachache. I think I am going to, I think I am going to stay here and just visit with your family.”
46:27
MR: I was seventeen.
46:29
GR: I wanted to get to know her better.
46:31
MR: And George is six and a half years older than me. And so I was only seventeen and a freshman in college. And so Harry, my brother did not have any thoughts even [laughs] see to me. How does this kid's sister five years or six years is a lot a big difference at that stage in your life. And but we got to know each other and he would ̶
46:59
Yeah, we dated on and off for four years till you finished college.
47:03
Well he did not come frequently. So if he came once in the summer, then he had asked me to hold New Year's Eve for them or something, you know.
47:13
GR: So then I did my internship in the Navy. And so they told me that they would, they would send me to California, you know, to the Naval Hospital there. And one of my friends was going to go to the Naval Hospital in Philadelphia. So I, I wanted to be where I could get to see her. So we got the Navy to agree to let me take his slot in Philadelphia and he would go to California.
47:49
JK: Oh my goodness.
47:50
MR: You were crazy [laughs] I would have gone to California.
47:58
GR: Anyway, that, that was the way we met. And it was not it was not arranged or anything like that, like our parents.
48:04
MR: No. And it was not. I mean, I was determined to finish college. So, I mean, that was four years that we were just seeing each other occasionally, but we ̶
48:16
GR: Yeah but I was in the Navy then we got married.
48:21
MR: And then when he got his internship in Philadelphia, and he was coming frequently to the house and you know, then we really got much more serious.
48:32
GR: Okay, let us let her go on with the questions.
48:34
JK: Oh yeah ̶ and so going back to Armenian culture. What do you think is the most important things about Armenia that really make us strong and what helped Armenian people survive?
48:51
GR: I think the cul ̶ well, I think that is an easy one. I think the culture is very, very much focused around the church and the traditions.
49:00
MR: And family, and family.
49:03
GR: Family and the traditions of the church, you know. And I know they get ̶ where I am from, I have some accounts of what life was like when in my father's village, it was pretty much oriented around, around their, around the church and, and the traditions of the church and so forth in the way they did holidays and so forth. And I would say probably, again, the church has always been the glue of keeping the Armenian people together.
49:41
MR: You have to understand that we did not have TV or anything, and their entertainment was getting together with each other and in nice weather, it would be even in New York City, a big city, we would go to Van Cortlandt Park, and have picnics, you know, occasionally not as frequently as George did here in Binghamton. But ̶
50:03
GR: Well they did, they did a lot of things like where the parents would come together, the kids would get up and say poems or they would sing, and you know, it was very much family-oriented. And so I guess maybe does that answer your question?
50:21
JK: Yes, of course. And what about the do you think the language and the homeland are just as important as the church or a little less?
50:31
MR: Now? You mean now?
50:33
JK: Yeah.
50:34
GR: You mean, Armenia now? All right. I think you have to understand that Armenia was under Soviet rule for forty years. And in this in the communists, outlawed churches, I mean, they closed all the churches down. They made them museums. The Armenian Church survived because they have been in Etchmiadzin for, for ̶
51:03
MR: Many centuries since seven hundred or six hundred.
51:06
GR: So, so the, the Russians sort of took an attitude, well, we are not going to, we are not going to help you, we are not going to do anything to help you. But we will not do anything to hurt you as long as you stay in line, you know, if you do anything against us, we will get rid of you. So, so Etchmiadzin was able to survive very well. And because we went there in (19)72, when it was under Soviet when it was Soviet Armenia, and we asked, my host was another doctor, who was a member of the Russian politburo, the communist politburo, you know, so we said, well, we would like to meet the [indistinct]. And he knew the [indistinct]. He said, I do not go to church. But he said, I will take you there and so forth. So as a result of that, I think religion got very much diluted. I do not think that there is the well there still is they are still very devoted to their churches, but ̶
52:17
MR: Well not ̶ they are devoted to the churches, but it is just like in ̶
52:23
GR: But maybe it is not as intense as it was.
52:27
JK: And have you ever been to the villages that your parents grew up in?
52:32
MR: No, unfortunately, we, we only went to Armenia and Lebanon. We tried when our kids were young when they were ten and, and eight or something like that. We went to Beirut, Lebanon ̶
52:48
GR: Well we went to Istanbul first ̶
52:50
MR: Where yeah where ̶
52:51
GR: Because her father was in the wrong business. And he was doing business there. You know that? Yeah. And then from Istanbul, we went to Beirut, because Beirut was kind of the Armenian. I think ̶
53:03
MR: Where they all ̶ many of them had settled. Yeah. And where my parents got married from, you know, and so we did that. And then we went to Armenia for a few days. And it was, as George said, it was under Soviet rule. So ̶
53:20
GR: Yeah, I had an invitation to lecture in their, at their medical school. So it was, you know, it was sanctioned by the government, but you always had to, had to be with somebody, you would not go off on your own. And, in fact, this is a funny story. We stayed in the hotel Armenia, and they had a Russian person on every floor. They spoke Armenian very well. But they had a Russian woman usually. And we were going out with some friends and they said, “Well, you know, you can leave the kids.” They were like ten and twelve there.
54:00
MR: We would never do it today but we did it then.
54:03
GR: Yeah you can leave and we will look after them. So, we, we came back. And we said to her, well, you know, how di ̶ how were the children's? Awful! [laughs] We said what happened, you know, apparently, all the rooms were bugged. You know, so they heard all this jusch-jusch-jusch up in the ceiling. So Gary gets on a chair and he gets pfffftttt [laughs] they did not take that too kindly.
54:37
JK: Oh my goodness that is amazing wow.
54:40
GR: So they were under a very totalitarian regime for forty years and it affected everything you know, I mean, that youth grew up in that environment so.
54:53
MR: As far as the language is concerned, there is Eastern dialect and in the Armenian language in Russia they now they speak the eastern dialect. And we ̶
55:07
GR: Speak Western ̶
55:08
MR: Speak the western dialect it is very difficult for those of us who speak the Western dialect like to really understand a lot of the words that so we do not really communicate that well.
55:21
GR: And the church or courses neither read has what they call[indistinct] ̶ It has its own language.
55:27
MR: The old language, the old ̶
55:28
GR: Which even we do not understand.
55:31
MR: Well, we do now because, you know, go to church frequently, but ̶
55:36
GR: Excuse me.
55:38
JK: Okay. And just one more question. How would you guys identify yourself as Armenian American or American Armenian?
55:47
MR & GR: American-Armenian.
55:49
MR: For sure. We are American of Armenian descent. We are very proud of our American and Armenian heritage, you know.
56:01
GR: You know, it is Armenian, it is our heritage, and we hope that our kids will remember their heritage. I mean, we are all Americans, of course, and that is our primary loyalty.
56:11
MR: And our grandchildren all of them, all four of them are proud of their Armenian heritage but, you know, I do not know whether how much of this will linger on in future generations ̶
56:23
GR: I do not think they will ever lose the taste for the foods.
56:26
MR: Yeah, that is for sure.
56:29
JK: Yes, they are the best.
56:30
MR: But they are all proud of their heritage.
56:33
GR: And we are.
56:36
JK: Of course. And is there anything else you would like to add to this interview or anything he would want to mention?
56:44
GR: What is that Marion?
56:44
MR: Is there anything else that you would like to mention or for this interview? She is almost through.
56:51
GR: Well, I think that probably as a whole just as, as our parents, you know, came here with actually no money. No, they did not know the language and everything. But they had the drive to get ahead. And I think they put that into their kids because most of the kids have, have, you know, been become very successful in American society, as you know, from all the I mean, we have a lot of Armenians in, in very important places in this country. So I think that our desire is that you know, our, our kids keep that same initiative.
57:42
JK: Yes.
57:44
MR: And-and instill the love of education in their children and you know ̶
57:51
GR: To try, to try to do better, you know, try to do your best and try to do better and,
and not, not rely on government to take care of us. We want to take care of ourselves, you know, so.
58:09
JK: Of course. All right. Well, thank you so much.
58:12
MR: You are very welcome.
(End of Interview)
Date of Interview
12/1/2017
Interviewer
Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
Marion and Dr. George Rejebian
Biographical Text
Marion Rejebian was born in Bronx, NY to Armenian parents who were escaping the genocide. Marion went to Hunter College and became an elementary school teacher. She taught for a few years of her marriage and then she devoted her life to raise her children.
Dr. Rejebian was born in Binghamton to Armenian parents. He first attended Triple City's College of Syracuse University (now Binghamton University) majoring in Biology. He then graduated from dental school at Georgetown University. After graduation, he served for six years as a dental officer in the Navy. George and Marion currently resides in Binghamton and together, they have two children, Gary and Vivian.
Dr. Rejebian was born in Binghamton to Armenian parents. He first attended Triple City's College of Syracuse University (now Binghamton University) majoring in Biology. He then graduated from dental school at Georgetown University. After graduation, he served for six years as a dental officer in the Navy. George and Marion currently resides in Binghamton and together, they have two children, Gary and Vivian.
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Digital Format
Audio
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Armenian Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information
Keywords
Armenians; Armenian church; Family; Language; Genocide; Culture; Assimilation
Files
Citation
“Interview with Marion and Dr. George Rejebian,” Digital Collections, accessed May 24, 2025, https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1322.
