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Interview with Mary
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Transcription
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Mary
Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen and Joseph Seif
Transcriber: Aynur de Rouen
Date of interview: 6 January 2020
Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY
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(Start of Interview)
00:09
JS: Today is January 6, 2020. We are at the Binghamton University Library with Mary. So, um, what ̶ Where were you born Mary?
00:25
M: I was born in Beirut, Lebanon,
00:26
JS: Or you were ̶ You went to Beirut, Lebanon. Okay.
00:28
M: I was born there. Yes.
00:30
JS: And what is your ethnic ̶ ethnic ̶
00:32
M: I am Armenian.
00:33
JS: Armenian? Okay. How was ̶ Can you tell us a bit more about Lebanon, Beirut, Lebanon?
00:39
M: Well, I came here when I was very young. So my parents immigrated here. So I do not really remember a lot about my life in Beirut prior to coming here. But when I graduated high school, my parents sent me back to get to know the country that I came from and to meet my family that was still there. So then I developed much more of an appreciation and a feeling for where I came from.
01:04
JS: So you have, you have a lot of family back in Lebanon.
01:08
M: Not anymore. I have one uncle, elderly uncle who lives there on my father's side, and then I have a my mother's sister and my cousin who live in Damascus. Other than that, there is well and a cousin who lives in Dubai, but I do not really consider that as much. Yeah.
01:24
JS: Okay. And so when did you come here to the US? He came here with your parents ̶
01:29
M: With my parents in 1959, 1959.
01:34
JS: Wow. Do you have any siblings?
01:36
M: I have one sister. We are a year and a half apart. So we were both very little when we came here. And so I think we became Americanized very quickly as a result of that. And we started kindergarten together. And in the US in Boston, that was where we ended up.
01:53
JS: Okay, so you do not remember anything from when you were kid? You said ̶
01:58
M: Um, I just, I just remember. Yeah, we spoke Armenian at home. Okay. What else did you want to ask me? I do not want to just ramble on.
02:06
JS: Oh, no. So was ̶ Armenian here in the US or just in Beirut, when ̶
02:12
M: both my parents still wanted us to speak Armenian at home here, but we never did. But we were supposed to.
02:20
AD: Do you still speak Armenian?
02:21
M: I can speak I understand. Very well, I can speak but it is a little rusty now. But I understand it. My mother who only passed away four and a half years ago, always spoke Armenian to me. So the language is very much a part of me. Always.
02:36
JS: Um, so when you? You said you came to the US ̶ when you came to the US as a young kid and went to school here. How were ̶ How was like the environment change? Do you recall any of that?
02:47
M: Well, I just remember, um going to kindergarten and not understanding the teacher.
02:53
JS: Okay.
02:54
M: ̶ Like one day, and then the next day. I just understood, that was what it seemed like, I am sure the process. But you know, at that age, what are you going to remember, except just being there and all the kids understood the teacher and you did not understand word and then, but I do not remember being terribly upset by it. Because I think my parents just told me it would come real quickly and it did. Yeah.
03:14
JS: That is good. That is good. So could you let us know a bit more about your family's history, your parents? What work ̶ with their jobs and everything.
03:25
M: My father was from Beirut, and he got us. I mean, up through up until college, I do not know what school he went to. But he was French educated. And then he went to the American University in Beirut, and he is an engineer. He was an engineer. My mother went to a French missionary school in Damascus, where she grew up. And so French was her first language all along, after Armenian, and she got her baccalaureate. So my father was an engineer, and he worked as an engineer in Beirut, up until the time we came here, and then he got a job here in the center,
04:01
AD: where they born? Your dad?
04:03
M: My father was born in Beirut. My mother was born in Idlib, Syria, which is now really difficult place but
04:11
JS: [indistinct] Syria?
04:12
M: Idlib.
04:14
JS: Idlib, oh, yeah. Okay.[laughter]
04:20
AD: So how did they end up in Lebanon and Syria? Do you know that history?
04:29
M: I do not know very well, I know, my paternal grandparents, I think were from Istanbul and ended up in Lebanon. And I do not know how. I do not really have much information about their family. But on my mother's side, I know more than enough because my mother was a family historian. So she wrote a family history book, and she traced her family back on her father's side 500 years and they were always from Aleppo. And again, I guess, according to her research before that they were from Ani in Armenia.
05:02
AD: Van
05:03
M: Van, yeah. And then move to Aleppo. So they were at that point, I think when my mom was one my grandparents met. My grandfather was basically Arab speaking. very Armenian, you know, very Armenian orthodox religion. But just like we speak English, even though we are Armenian, and they spoke Arabic in the family. And do you have questions? Or ̶
05:25
JS: This is very interesting?
05:30
AD: Yeah.
05:30
JS: So you mentioned that your mom wrote a book, is it? Is it published or ̶
05:35
M: No, it is self-published. And I thought about it, but I just thought, you know, it is kind of a very personal book. And I do not know if you know, but my mother did other projects that, that I made sure to donate to the library when she passed away. She did. She was very artsy. And she sewed and did a lot of things like that. And she made like 50 costumes for Armenian historical costumes that were spectacular. And we donate donated them to the Armenian Museum in Boston, where they have them and they display them.
06:09
JS: So your mom did like more Armenian art or traditional cultural ̶
06:15
M: the costumes, like she researched all the history, and all the costumes of women of the various periods starting in pre Christian times, all the way up to you know, the World War I time, and she did all the costumes. It is unbelievable. But I do not have pictures of all of them. But I have pictures of a couple I can possibly send you. Plus she did an oral history project to where she went to. There was an Armenian nursing home in Jamaica Plain Massachusetts. It was all Armenian elderly people. And she did an oral history where she would go in and tape them talking about their experiences during World War I, during the genocide ̶
06:56
AD: So those are the survivors.
06:57
M: The survivors of the genocide, and that we also donated to the museum.
07:03
JS: Wow. It is fascinating.
07:05
M: It is. Yeah.
07:09
AD: It is, it actually is. So when you were ̶ So when did you move to Binghamton?
07:13
M: When I got married. And ̶
07:15
AD: So, you grew up in Boston.
07:18
M: I grew up in Boston? Yep. Where there is a big Armenian community. Yes.
07:22
AD: Okay. Even today, it still continues ̶
07:24
M: Oh, yeah. Okay. So, can you tell me how your surrounding ̶ like, your house ̶ when you were growing up? When you go to your friend's house, like, did your house look different? Are ̶ you know, like ̶
07:42
M: No not really. No, it was pretty similar. My parents were pretty Europeanized. And I do not think that there was anything that would distinct ̶ distinguish us from my friends homes or anything like that. My best friend was Armenian. But that just kind of happened growing up because her parents were friends with my parents. So I do not feel in any way that I grew up feeling different. I went to high school, I went to an all-girls Catholic High School in Boston, where everybody was either Italian or Irish. There is a huge Irish population there. And then I felt a little different because my family you know, did not we went to an Armenian Orthodox Church and this and that, but I never really felt like it has stigmatized me I had a lot of friends and things so did I answer your question?
08:27
AD: Yes. So you did not have anything represents Armenian culture in ̶ like your decorations?
08:36
M: No.
08:36
AD: Nothing like ̶
08:38
M: In my house or my parents’ house?
08:40
AD: In your house or in your parents’ house.
08:45
M: I am trying to think but it was long time ago ̶
08:46
AD: You said made costumes. Was she also, also like, like crochet ̶ you know, stuff like that.
08:55
M: My grandmother did things like that, that my mother had. But my mother did not do those things. And when I was growing up, my mother was not even really that involved with doing those kinds of things that she later went on to do with her research and her book writing and things like that. I see.
09:10
AD: I see. So how about food?
09:13
M: Oh, yes, food? Definitely. We ate Armenian food, which we still love to go and eat Middle Eastern food because it is part of our culture and what we love so the food definitely, yeah.
09:24
AD: And how about your house? Like when you can? Yeah, like, ah, did you eat Armenian food growing out?
09:34
Daughter: That tradition continued? Yeah, yes,
09:38
AD: Food continues language ends, but food continues.
09:42
M: Language did not end either. But it did end with my kids. Unfortunately, that is where I do blame myself that my husband is also Armenian, and he can understand but he does not speak at all. So it became a little bit of an impediment for me just like on an everyday basis to just speak the language but she [referring to her daughter] because she hung out with my mother and me all the time. Got a real earful of Armenian. So she understands a lot more than she even gives herself credit for. I think, yeah.
10:09
Daughter: I wish I spoke fluently, but ̶
10:12
AD: Well, if you have it, so maybe if you visit, yeah, you know, Armenia then or hang out with more Armenian speaking people.
10:24
Daughter: Absolutely. Even after a week of being around extended family, you see yourself understanding more than you even did prior to that. So ̶
10:34
AD: Absolutely. One day. Yeah, yeah. Why not?
10:36
JS: So you said your there was a big Armenian community in Boston. Were you friends with a lot of them? Did you guys have like parties? Or events ̶
10:43
M: Yes, it was fun being a young person in Boston, those days. I belong to the church, the ASA, the Armenian Student Association. And then when I went to college, I belong to another Armenian young adult organization. And there were always dances and I was in a play, speaking in Armenian, I mean, all this crazy stuff, but it was very fun. And actually, my best friend was also Armenian. And we did not even know we were Armenian. Until after we got to know each other and like, “Oh, my gosh, your Armenian too?” Oh, yes. There was ̶ It was great. It was really nice. We had a lot of fun.
11:18
JS: That is good. So is that how you met your husband? Or?
11:20
M: No, we were set up on a blind date.
11:23
JS: Oh really?
11:23
M: Yes. By family? Yeah. Because I have family here in Binghamton. And we were here to visit them once and his elderly aunt met me and thought, “Oh, she might work for my nephew.” So that was how that got set up.
11:40
JS: Interesting.
11:40
AD: So were you expected to marry an Armenian?
11:45
M: You know, you probably think I was but there was not any pressure on me to do so. My mother just said marry the person you love. And my father was never very Armenian in his, in his sentiment and his identity. And my father was very much of like an artistic type who really kind of felt closer to France and all that rather than he did to Armenian but my mother was very Armenian, but she never impose that on me. No.
12:08
AD: How about you with your ̶ How many children do you have?
12:12
M: My daughter and my son who is older? Yeah. I never did ̶
12:17
Daughter: I think it was always something that they recognize would be an asset in a relationship if you had that shared cultural background and understanding of each other. But there was never an expectation attached to it.
12:28
AD: So how do you identify yourself?
12:30
Daughter: Very Armenian? Like, like my mother said, I grew up very close to my, my grandmother and other relatives. And that was always such a fundamental part of their identity that even more than my brother, I think I took that on and I really identify with it.
12:47
AD: Are you married?
12:48
Daughter: Yes.
12:40
AD: Do you have children?
12:51
Daughter: No.
12:51
M: She just got married.
12:52
Daughter: A couple of ̶ three months ago. [laughs]
12:56
AD: Oh, congratulations. How about your brother? Is he married?
12:58
Daughter: He is and two children too.
13:01
AD: So how about his children? Do they identify themselves with the Armenian ̶
13:07
Daughter: There ̶ His wife is European, very Western European. My brother like I said, it is not as much of a part of his identity as it is with mine. It comes through ̶ my mother introduces them to Armenian music.
13:21
M: And I spoke to them in Armenian sometimes when I can they understand body parts, you know, in the Armenian language and things like your toes or whatever.
13:31
Daughter: But I guess time will tell a little bit. They are still very young, so.
13:35
AD: And still a lot is going on in that part of the world. It is good to know that language that is for sure. Yeah. Any languages from that part of the world is really vital. I think.
13:49
JS: Did you guys ever go back to visit Armenia? Or ̶
13:53
M: So going back I told you, my parents sent me between high school and college I spent more than I actually loved it so much in Beirut that I was always supposed, yes. Okay. So I was just turned 18. I took this whole trip all by myself, stayed with my relatives in Syria and in Lebanon, and then ended up staying in Lebanon and loving it so much that I asked my parents that I could go to school there and I went to AUB [American University in Beirut] for two semesters. But then when we started dodging rockets coming from here and there, my parents said “Come home immediately,” so ̶
14:28
JS: Was that during the Civil War?
14:29
M: Yes. The beginning of the Civil War. Yes.
14:31
JS: you were there. Were other Armenians there as well? I would imagine. So yeah.
14:37
M: Oh, huge, huge amount of population of Armenians. Right there. Yes. Yep. Yeah, but I loved it. It was fabulous.
14:46
JS: Yeah, a lot of the food in Lebanon and elsewhere in the Middle East is influenced by Armenian, a lot of the, the meat. I know you guys call them differently.
14:56
AD: Köfte
14:56
M: Yes, köfte, we call it köfte too.
14:59
JS: Oh, you do okay, okay. [laughter]
15:02
M: Absolutely, and we have the dolma, which is like the stuffed zucchini and cabbages and
15:07
Daughter: Grape leaves ̶
15:07
M: Grape leaves, yeah with different kinds of stuffing
15:12
AD: Fasulye.
15:12
M: Fasulye, oh, yeah. Like in my freezer right now. So yeah ̶
15:17
AD: Absolutely. It is the same food. It is just, you know, everybody ̶ like the ethnicity of the food so you can separate.
15:27
JS: It is hard to determine ̶
15:29
AD: From Greece all the way to you know, [indistinct]. You cannot separate it. It is just so intertwined. Yeah, yes.
15:40
Daughter: Absolutely.
15:40
AD: We all eat the same food.
15:42
M: Yes. And it is good, healthy, really delicious food.
15:48
Daughter: She, she is a really good cook.
15:53
M: Oh, [indistinct]
15:54
JS: you cannot say otherwise. You have to say ̶
15:56
Daughter: Oh, that is ̶
15:57
M: That is right. I am twisting her arm behind the scene so you better tell them I am a good cook.
16:02
JS: I would have to do that for my mom.
16:07
M: Oh, she is for sure.
16:08
JS: All right, so you mentioned religion when you came to the US. So back in Beirut, there was a big? Well, you do not quite remember it. But when you grew up here with religion and stuff, there was a lot of Catholic in Boston, right? As the most orthodox was that any barrier to ̶
16:26
M: But there was a big Armenian population there. There are five Armenian churches in the greater Boston area. The different parts of you know, different kind of factions, if you will, of the Armenian Church, the different kind of philosophical slash political beliefs that lead to different kinds of churches. But we were part of the Holy Trinity Armenian Church, and that was where I grew up going. It is a beautiful big church. Right. Yeah. That was there already. When? When we went to Boston.
16:54
JS: Okay. And did you ever go back to Armenia itself?
16:58
M: I have never been to Armenia, I have never been there.
17:01
JS: You do not have any relatives, family there? No,
17:04
M: No.
17:07
AD: How about Istanbul?
17:08
M: I have never been there. And I just feel like all the family ̶ My Turkish people that grew up in Turkey, ended up the ones that I know, have ended up either in Lebanon or Syria.
17:20
AD: So they left, because I ̶ my research deals with non-Muslim groups in Istanbul. And yeah, some people left but like a lot of Armenians from Istanbul, they do not end up leaving ̶ but there are some yes, but, but a lot of them stayed.
17:47
M: That is very ̶ I am sure that is true. I do not like I said, the only people I knew from Istanbul were my paternal grandparents and I do not have any history on why they would have left and why they ended up in Lebanon, I have no idea.
18:01
AD: You could do that research. You could find your ̶
18:05
M: I think that is probably in my future. And I would love to get some help.
18:10
AD: I will help you.
18:11
M: Thank you. I was just going to kind of put that in there, somewhere, yeah.
18:15:
AD: I will help you, yeah.
18:16
M: Because my, my uncle who's still alive, he is in his 90s. Now he sent me like a little family tree with pictures, but it only went back two generations, like his parents, so that on the fourth generation, way from where he came, but I would like to know why they went. I know my mother's mother was born in Antep, Gaziantep I think it is called now, they came from what I was told was a wealthy family there have an Armenian kind of area in Turkey. But I guess when the war started, they just left everything. But they were close enough to Aleppo to not get into some of the difficulties that some of the others did, leaving the country. So they just took a train left everything behind, ended up in Aleppo, where the Syrians had a really amazing social services’ system set up for the people, the refugees from the war, so they had them housed and fed and my grandmother was teaching English unbelievably enough in an Armenian school that got set up in for the orphans in Aleppo. And that was how she met my grandfather, who was a lawyer, actually, he went to law school Istanbul, my grandfather on my mother's side, but then he went back to Aleppo afterwards to practice law.
19:34
AD: Yeah, is it ̶ but the ̶ what I know of the Armenian ̶ majority of non-Muslim population, especially Armenians, they were like really well educated group of people.
19:51
M: Yeah, I my family that has always been stressed. We all you know, doctors, engineers. I have a master's degree clinical social work so and so does my daughter. I mean, we stressed education and my husband has a degree from, from University of Pennsylvania. I mean that, that has always been not financial wealth as much as just really education was always stressed.
20:13
JS: Okay. Yeah. Can you tell us more about your family's history on your mother's side? The one that you know that that is really interesting.
20:21
M: So what do you want me to state ̶ So, so my grandfather's family was there, he went to Istanbul and got his law degree, went back met my grandmother, who was one of the refugees from Turkey, fell in love got married, they had six children in eleven years. And my grandfather became a circuit judge in northern Syria. So they had like ̶ each kid was practically born in a different part. My mother was born in Italy, her younger sister was born in Deir ez-Zor or others born in Aleppo. And then I think the youngest one was born in Damascus, but I could be wrong about that. I cannot remember. So they traveled a lot. But my mother loved Aleppo. Aleppo was very special for her, because that was where she was really little. And ̶ everybody was looking at their phone.
21:12
Daughter: Sorry about that.
21:16
M: So and then, when my mother was I do not know how old she was really, she was still ̶ she went to an Armenian Elementary School in Damascus, because then he got transferred to Damascus. And so my grandfather had quite a stature in his community, in the Armenian community in Damascus. And the Armenian Pope, the pope from Etchmiadzin in Armenia came to Damascus, and he stayed at my grandparents’ home. And they had all kinds of ceremonies and things like that this was a story my mom told over and over. So there was a lot of respect for, for my grandparents in the community. And then he became a member of parliament, and he represented the Armenian population in Syria. And while the French were still in Syria, but then when the French left and the Syrian government, you know, it kind of went into turmoil and all that, then he lost his position there. And then he died shortly after that. That enough, do you have more questions? [laughter]
22:15
JS: That is really interesting. Interesting. Wow. So do you know anything ̶ Do you know more about the French? Like, when Syria was under French control how, how life was there? Or ̶
22:28
M: I think they were very happy. And from what my mother tells me, the various religious minorities, whether it was the, you know, the Muslims, the Armenians, the Catholics, or whoever, they all got along very well. There was no problem. My, my, my grandparents had friends from all walks of life and from all various religious, ethnic backgrounds, and everybody was really comfortable. And I think the French let them be pretty much they did not try to impose them their culture on them so much, so they grew up in a pretty good place. Like I said, my mom went to French schools.
23:06
JS: Yeah. Oh, yeah, that is right. That is the French Connection.
23:07
M: The French Connection. The Franciscan nuns, the French nuns, and my uncle's some ̶ My mother was five brothers and sisters, three brothers and two sisters. So the boys went to a French boy school and the daughters went to a Franciscan.
23:22
JS: Interesting. So what, what really ̶ do you know what happened after when the French when Syria gained independence? Why did, why did your grandfather get kicked out of ̶
23:35
M: I do not know exactly why, but I guess, um it just kind of happened because the Syrians maybe did not identify the Armenians as, as a group that needed to be represented in the parliament. I do not know exactly. But I know that it was very difficult for him afterwards. And he was only in his early 60s and he died of a heart attack shortly after that was very stressful for him. Yeah.
24:01
AD: I am sure it was the stress.
24:03
M: Yeah, yeah.
24:06
JS: What time is ̶ Okay. See if you have any other questions, do you have anything?
24:13
AD: No.
24:15
JS: Do you have anything you want to add on or say? Anything about your family? Anything you can recall, but anything you experienced that was Armenian or linked to Armenia?
24:27
M: Well, my family is dispersed all over the world. And we all maintain our Armenian heritage very closely. We get together as much as we can. We are very close. So I think part of that is just due to our Armenian background, you know,
24:42
JS: Yeah. Do you guys ever like you said mentioned your whole family's around the world? Do you guys ever do like a big family?
24:48
M: Oh, yeah.
24:49
JS: Oh you do?
24:50
M: We just had one about two years ago in Canada, but we have done it in France. We have done it, um ̶ When I was little, we went back to the Middle East with my mom and we spent a whole Somewhere in the Middle East, but I was still little, you know, at that time, so, but I remember oh wait a minute I do remember, I was in my grandmother's kitchen, and that was when Saddam not Saddam. Okay, I am the president of Syria. Oh, Hafez Al Assad was there was a coup d'etat while we were there. This was in 1963. There and so we were at this reunion, and there was a coup d'etat going on, I was in my grandmother's kitchen, all of us. There was like, I have twenty-three cousins, and my mom has lots of siblings and my grandmother and all these people. And they started like guns going off in the street. And they did. They did were curfews. Thank you where you can, you know, leave after so we would all just hang around in one house and the kids. We were having a ball, but the adults were. But then we went to Beirut, and then we you know, got a house and big fire all of us all together. It was great. But yeah ̶
25:55
JS: It is a good place.
25:57
M: Oh, it is so beautiful. I remember that. I remember mountain climbing and just running and playing all day long. It was so beautiful.
26:04
JS: Yes. It is very known to being an Armenian ̶ Armenian place.
26:08
M: Is that so I did not know. Yeah.
26:10
JS: Yeah, Yeah. It is, also it is also a good place for skiing as well. It is up there.
26:15
M: Yeah. Yes, it is. Yeah. It had red dirt. I remember mountain climbing coming home, my mother being mad because our clothes were covered in red soil, and she could not wash out. But yeah, it is a beautiful place.
26:28
JS: Interesting. I do not know what to add.
26:33
AD: Okay. Um, did you hear from your mom, or your dad, like, anything related to the Armenian Genocide?
26:47
M: You know, I was just telling my daughter that I never knew that was a genocide until I went to the Middle East. And even then it was not like it was not a cocktail party conversation. And the only way that I heard it was because my, my mother sister that I am very close to ̶ used to take me on her visiting days when they would go to different lady's houses, and they would have coffee and pastries and stuff. And one of the ladies there was, they would all say she was to be in a Turkish harem. And they said it was because during the war, she was a little girl, and somebody put her in a harem. And then anyway, I do not know how she got out of the harem. I do not know what happened. But I remember saying how did that happen? And they told me Well, there was a war and a lot of Armenians died or, or were killed or went through these death marches. And she was just taken on. But they also said, and this is something I wanted to stress too, you know, yes, it was terrible. And the government made these choices that killed all those Armenians, but the average Turkish person, somebody's neighbor, somebody's friend, we were doing everything they could to help the Armenians behind the scenes, you know,
27:52
AD: Yeah, they are friends, neighbors ̶ Wouldn't you help someone ̶
27:57
M: Absolutely. But I guess their point was, they did not want the whole thing to seem as though there was some monstrous thing going on with everybody participating. It was just kind of ̶
28:06
AD: Yeah, not everybody. Yeah, it was it was political. And then a couple of people decided it was ̶ all political concerns, right? What is going on today? But people that ̶ help each other?
28:21
M: Yes. But I think it was on my parents got divorced. And my mother married a Hungarian man who lived through the war, and then Revolution and the Russian takeover of Hungary. So he was a refugee that went to Boston from Hungary. And so he really, I think, was kind of an impetus for my mother to start researching more about what happened with Armenians and the genocide. And, um so that was when I learned more and more about it, and, yeah ̶
28:50
AD: Because up until the nineteenth century, you know, the, the word is millet. It is like people with book ̶ religious book, like either Jews or Armenians or Greek, you know. They had some rights. It was not like, they do not mean ̶ they were minority. But it was not like, like in the nineteenth century, that they lost everything. It was like that. So but it is all political. Now, fortunately, right? It has happened, but it is. So you do not mean this to arrive or that you recall from your family ̶
29:41
M: As I said, my maternal grandmother left but it was not. It was not a really traumatic, it was very hard for the family because they left everything behind. But there was no physical danger that they were in or anything like that. But on my, my husband's father's side, he grew up in Hadjin [Saimbeyli]. I do not know what it is called. It is like a mountainous area with his family, his father was a priest. And the whole family left and went to Marseilles when things first started, but my father in law who was born the same year as my, my grandmother, so he was born in 1902. Okay, my father in law, so now he would have been like a hundred eighteen years old. So he was a child during World War I. And he got left behind with an elderly relative who could not travel. So he went through a lot. And he thought a lot being where he was, and not being and being fifteen. But somehow, he made it to Marseilles at some point, I do not know details, because he could never talk about it. I think his whole life, he probably had a lot of PTSD as a result of it. Post traumatic. Yeah.
30:54
AD: Yeah. It was not an easy time. That is for sure.
30:55
JS: So when you were ̶ you said you found out when you were in Lebanon? Did you feel like the Armenians, the Armenian community did not really talk about it? Or did they? It felt like something they just want to leave behind? Or ̶
31:10
M: I do not think so I think there are definite groups of Armenians that, you know, wanted, I do not want to say we banned, but wanted it. And I think all Armenians just out of the sake of you know, after the Jewish Holocaust, there was retribution and all that. And that there, there needs to be some sort of closure, some sort of admission and closure. Nobody wants to go take lands back, as far as I know, at least people I know, do not do not want to do that. They just want to sense a closure. And a sense of Yes, you did go through that. And it was terrible. But it is all behind us now. And we can move on from there. You know, and I think we all agree on that. But there are some that are a little more militant than that. I do not know if they are still like that. But when I was a kid growing up in Boston, there were some people that used to get a little more worked up over it.
31:57
AD: Absolutely.
31:57
JS: Yeah that makes sense.
31:58
AD: Yeah, absolutely, um. Go ahead.
32:09
JS: I am thinking I am thinking,
32:11
AD: I had something, but I forgot right now.
32:12
JS: Okay. Um, do you ever plan to go back to do live there? I mean, or like visit one more time, or ̶
32:21
M: If the political situation is not as bad as it is now. I would never go back right now. My, my aunt and my cousin are actually in Damascus, and they are living there. They went to Beirut, when the war was really going on in Syria really badly. They got an apartment in Beirut, and they seem to be doing well. But my aunt was in her eighties just was not happy there. She wanted to be back in her hometown. So when things quite a done in Damascus, her daughter helped, you know, went with her just so that she would not be alone. And they are there. And it worries me now whenever I hear the news and what is going on, but they are so used to it. Not, not to say not to normalize it, but in some ways, you know ̶
33:02
JS: Yeah, yeah. I know what you mean.
33:05
AD: Well, you can always go back to Istanbul. They are like, maybe you do not know your relatives, but the architecture is ̶ like wonderful. Oh, yeah. Armenian architects. And that is my thing, architectural history. So well. I mean, they are, like, beautiful examples of the architecture and the cuisine. Like the ̶ Istanbul the food ̶ It is definitely Armenian and Greek ̶ combination of that Greek culture.
33:42
M: Right.
33:42
AD: It is, it is really, really delicious.
33:44
M: Right, well, my mother used to make Istanbul dishes from learning from her mother in law. And those were my favorites always. They are really good.
33:52
AD: Yeah, it is. It is unbelievable. So and then, you know, the churches.
33:57
M: And the mosques. I know though. Yeah. But also there are like,
34:02
AD: Yeah, but also there are like ̶ beautiful Armenian churches, majority is Gregorian [the Armenian Apostolic Church], we have real a small number of Orthodox Armenians. The majority ̶ I am told about, like more than 90 percent is Gregorian.
34:18
M: Gregorian. I am not sure what ̶
34:20
AD: It is more I think protest.
34:22
M: Oh, okay.
34:23
AD: It is I but still, I think it is not like after the Reformation period, it is still before, but if they ̶ I do not know, I am not a big person. That is the Gregorian.
34:44
M: Okay. You know, I do not think I have ever quite heard that term before. Unfortunately.
34:50
AD: Really? Oh, that is, that is the majority of ̶ the sect.
34:56
M: Okay. But it is more Protestant. You said it is the Protestant.
34:59
AD: That is what I am thinking because it is not orthodox, we have some orthodox Armenians but it is like very small percentage but majority ̶ like Armenians, Assyrians they are Gregorian so do not ask me so much about it.
35:20
M: I am going to go home and Google it and learn about it.
35:26
AD: Yeah. [laughter]
35:26
M: But I ̶ my mother gave me a notebook that belonged to my ̶ It was like my grandfather her father's journal that he kept when he was young like he made the note that the day that my mother was born and wrote about his feelings about having a new daughter and it is beautiful but I cannot really read it because I do not read Armenian I speak it but I do not read it so but there is also a part in it about when he was in law school and about how much he loved Istanbul and again he talked about the architecture and the beauty of the of the land itself and the, the, the beauty of the country you know, so he was very impressed with it. Because he grew up in Aleppo very dry very yeah desert like can almost conditions so ̶
36:09
AD: And whereas Istanbul is all water. You know, you know, of course we have less green now. Thanks to all this unnecessary buildings, structures, but still is, still it is beautiful. I think it is.
36:31
M: Is that where you are from?
36:33
AD: Yes. That is where I am from. So I am not objective about it.
36:39
M: You do not have to be.
36:42
AD: [indistinct] hometown. Yeah, it is different. When you talk about your hometown, definitely.
36:52
JS: Okay. Well, I am just going to wrap up everything but before I do, I just wondering if you have anything else to add about food, culture, religion, experience is at think of any cultural thing. Traditional stuff?
37:10
M: I do not know. I do not think so. I think of anything ̶
37:15
AD: I have a question so like when you name your children? Do you pick Armenian names?
37:23
M: I did not. Although I my daughter's middle name is my mother's name, which was Armenian.
37:29
AD: Yeah.
37:29
M: And my ̶ But no, other than but my great grandma, my grandma, not my grandma. Yeah, yeah, my granddaughter's first name is my mother's name. Lusin. You have, you have seen her at the restaurant? The little girl, not the baby. But the other one. Yes. Her name is Lusin, which is my mother's name, which means moon and Armenian. And so, yes, but other than that, yeah, not. Because my name was always hard. Okay. And I had the one that has probably come to think of it. The one thing that did torment me was my name. Because No, none of my teachers could say it. And so my parents changed my name to Susan, when I was, when I was in elementary school. So somebody would call me Susan instead of Hey, you were Yeah, that one over there. So that was the only thing that I had problems with was my name. Yeah.
38:19
JS: Wow. Interesting.
38:22
M: Yeah, forgot about that
38:23
Daughter: Leaves an impression.
38:25
AD: Yeah. But ̶ I have five letter on my first name, okay. How different ̶ It is not like I have fifteen letter, all consonants together that you do not know how to pronounce it. Five letters. And I have like thirty different versions ̶ how my name spelled and pronounced.
38:49
M: Oh, join the club.
38:50
AD: I do not want to put in the tape now. Some of the things I was told. And I am like, “Really?” Like,
“How did you come up with that?”
39:00
M: Well, exactly. I can I can tell you I had the same experience that was shocking, because if you can read you can tell it that completely off base. But then, but my name is five letters to it is not that confusing.
39:17
AD: You know, Indian names and it stars and it never ends and you are like “Okay.” “How am I going to say that?” It is not like that ̶ five letters. You can come up with something easily. That is amazing to me. It is like, but that is, that is people's laziness. I think seriously, that is how I feel.
39:43
M: Right about I also think that now everybody's name is made up like everybody makes up their kids names. Well, when I was growing up, nobody had any different names than Kathy and Mary and a couple other names and if your name was different than you were different because of it. Which I did not mind. I just wanted them to pronounce my name correctly.
40:04
JS: Yeah.
40:04
AD: Yeah that I totally understand.
40:08
JS: The science of the names.
40:10
AD: You are happy your name is very easy.
40:13
JS: Three words ̶ three letters ̶ Joe
40:17
AD: How can you go wrong with that, right?
40:18
M: Yeah, you cannot go wrong with that.
40:20
JS: Less than a safe so you can just call me there Joe save or Joseph.
40:27
AD: That is easy.
40:28
M: That is easy.
40:30
JS: The only thing with me is that people look like wait your name is Joe. Are you sure? But do not think it is like Mohammed or something like ̶ yes like to make sure.
40:40
Daughter: To convince them
40:41
JS: Convince them.
40:43
AD: Because there is this conception that if you are from Middle- East you must be Muslim or Jewish. It is like you know, if you are a Christian that oh really there is still this you know, I mean if you are from the area you know that is normal but if you are not there is that concept in their mind like majority of the people are Muslim and ̶
41:10
M: That is right. Or they do not know the finer distinctions between ̶ I was born in Lebanon but I am Armenian you were born in Lebanon maybe but your ̶ you are Lebanese or you are Arab extraction whatever, but they do not they do not get that they, they we have Lebanese friends and they call us Lebanese too, because they know we were I was born in Lebanon. So I guess that makes me Lebanese in a way but I guess I really identify with Armenian and not Lebanese you know.
41:39
AD: People who are born and lived all their lives over there. I would say Lebanese Armenian or Turkish Armenian. You know what, like, because you are as much as Turkish if you were born and raised there.
41:59
M: Yeah.
42:00
AD: Like anybody else.
42:01
M: Right?
42:01
AD: That, that is not the ethnicity that ties you to the land.
42:07
M: That is right.
42:08
AD: You are from there. You know, you are from Istanbul and yes, you are from Istanbul. It does not matter what religion you have, what ethnicity you have, you belong that piece of land,
42:20
M: The exact words, but they, but they kind of inter interject the ethnicity into the piece of land you belong to and the language and the religion just go along with it. So it is kind of hard to pull it all apart for people sometimes I think.
42:33
AD: I know
42:34
JS: What, what I believe is might be a bit more like a counter you but I think like where you were born does not necessarily mean. That is who you are. Because I was born in Saudi Arabia. I am not ̶ definitely not Saudi Arabian.
42:49
AD: Come on now.
42:49
JS: I am ̶ no.
42:51
JS: I do not. I like ̶ that land means nothing to me. Just a piece of desert. And that is it.
42:58
AD: Yeah, but you were there for a short period of time. I am talking about people ̶
43:05
JS: That live there ̶
43:05
AD: Generations after generation, do not they think they deserve that, that they are from that piece of land?
43:14
M: Right. Sorry.
43:15
JS: ̶ Can contribute?
43:16
AD: Like they were there for three years or less?
43:19
AD: That is right. That is right. Okay. Hey, that is that is what I get.
43:23
M: Yeah, my, my mother's mother was born in Turkey. She left when she was I do not know how old I guess she was about fifteen when they went to Aleppo, but she spoke Turkish to her sisters her whole life. And I think she had a strong affinity to Turkey. And Antep. She cooked all the food that was really regional Antep cooking, which is awesome, too. You know?
43:46
AD: Yes it is and who knows? How many generations?
43:49
M: Oh, way back.
43:49
AD: ̶ lived here. That is what I am saying.
43:53
M: Exactly
43:53
AD: Yeah. Like something happened. This is all political. At the end of the World War I, like when everything became crazy in that part of the world. So they made this exchange like, for Greeks, like whoever lived in Turkey had to leave look like how shocking that is. They had to leave their motherland, that they been living there for centuries, and they had to go to Greece. Likewise, Turks who have been living in Greece need to leave there. And guess what those people never made that because they were always looked at as an outsider wherever they left. To me, that was the cruelest thing you can do to someone
44:43
M: Definitely being displaced. Yeah, that is a terrible thing. It is.
44:49
AD: It really is forceful, but ̶
44:53
AD: Yeah, so anything else, Joe?
44:56
JS: I do not have anything. No. Think¬ ̶
45:00
M: I do not ̶ I really
45:03
JS: I think it is a wrap.
45:05
AD: Thank you so much.
45:07
M: My pleasure. It was very fun. Very interesting. Very nice to meet you.
45:11
AD: Yes.
(End of Interview)
Interview with: Mary
Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen and Joseph Seif
Transcriber: Aynur de Rouen
Date of interview: 6 January 2020
Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:09
JS: Today is January 6, 2020. We are at the Binghamton University Library with Mary. So, um, what ̶ Where were you born Mary?
00:25
M: I was born in Beirut, Lebanon,
00:26
JS: Or you were ̶ You went to Beirut, Lebanon. Okay.
00:28
M: I was born there. Yes.
00:30
JS: And what is your ethnic ̶ ethnic ̶
00:32
M: I am Armenian.
00:33
JS: Armenian? Okay. How was ̶ Can you tell us a bit more about Lebanon, Beirut, Lebanon?
00:39
M: Well, I came here when I was very young. So my parents immigrated here. So I do not really remember a lot about my life in Beirut prior to coming here. But when I graduated high school, my parents sent me back to get to know the country that I came from and to meet my family that was still there. So then I developed much more of an appreciation and a feeling for where I came from.
01:04
JS: So you have, you have a lot of family back in Lebanon.
01:08
M: Not anymore. I have one uncle, elderly uncle who lives there on my father's side, and then I have a my mother's sister and my cousin who live in Damascus. Other than that, there is well and a cousin who lives in Dubai, but I do not really consider that as much. Yeah.
01:24
JS: Okay. And so when did you come here to the US? He came here with your parents ̶
01:29
M: With my parents in 1959, 1959.
01:34
JS: Wow. Do you have any siblings?
01:36
M: I have one sister. We are a year and a half apart. So we were both very little when we came here. And so I think we became Americanized very quickly as a result of that. And we started kindergarten together. And in the US in Boston, that was where we ended up.
01:53
JS: Okay, so you do not remember anything from when you were kid? You said ̶
01:58
M: Um, I just, I just remember. Yeah, we spoke Armenian at home. Okay. What else did you want to ask me? I do not want to just ramble on.
02:06
JS: Oh, no. So was ̶ Armenian here in the US or just in Beirut, when ̶
02:12
M: both my parents still wanted us to speak Armenian at home here, but we never did. But we were supposed to.
02:20
AD: Do you still speak Armenian?
02:21
M: I can speak I understand. Very well, I can speak but it is a little rusty now. But I understand it. My mother who only passed away four and a half years ago, always spoke Armenian to me. So the language is very much a part of me. Always.
02:36
JS: Um, so when you? You said you came to the US ̶ when you came to the US as a young kid and went to school here. How were ̶ How was like the environment change? Do you recall any of that?
02:47
M: Well, I just remember, um going to kindergarten and not understanding the teacher.
02:53
JS: Okay.
02:54
M: ̶ Like one day, and then the next day. I just understood, that was what it seemed like, I am sure the process. But you know, at that age, what are you going to remember, except just being there and all the kids understood the teacher and you did not understand word and then, but I do not remember being terribly upset by it. Because I think my parents just told me it would come real quickly and it did. Yeah.
03:14
JS: That is good. That is good. So could you let us know a bit more about your family's history, your parents? What work ̶ with their jobs and everything.
03:25
M: My father was from Beirut, and he got us. I mean, up through up until college, I do not know what school he went to. But he was French educated. And then he went to the American University in Beirut, and he is an engineer. He was an engineer. My mother went to a French missionary school in Damascus, where she grew up. And so French was her first language all along, after Armenian, and she got her baccalaureate. So my father was an engineer, and he worked as an engineer in Beirut, up until the time we came here, and then he got a job here in the center,
04:01
AD: where they born? Your dad?
04:03
M: My father was born in Beirut. My mother was born in Idlib, Syria, which is now really difficult place but
04:11
JS: [indistinct] Syria?
04:12
M: Idlib.
04:14
JS: Idlib, oh, yeah. Okay.[laughter]
04:20
AD: So how did they end up in Lebanon and Syria? Do you know that history?
04:29
M: I do not know very well, I know, my paternal grandparents, I think were from Istanbul and ended up in Lebanon. And I do not know how. I do not really have much information about their family. But on my mother's side, I know more than enough because my mother was a family historian. So she wrote a family history book, and she traced her family back on her father's side 500 years and they were always from Aleppo. And again, I guess, according to her research before that they were from Ani in Armenia.
05:02
AD: Van
05:03
M: Van, yeah. And then move to Aleppo. So they were at that point, I think when my mom was one my grandparents met. My grandfather was basically Arab speaking. very Armenian, you know, very Armenian orthodox religion. But just like we speak English, even though we are Armenian, and they spoke Arabic in the family. And do you have questions? Or ̶
05:25
JS: This is very interesting?
05:30
AD: Yeah.
05:30
JS: So you mentioned that your mom wrote a book, is it? Is it published or ̶
05:35
M: No, it is self-published. And I thought about it, but I just thought, you know, it is kind of a very personal book. And I do not know if you know, but my mother did other projects that, that I made sure to donate to the library when she passed away. She did. She was very artsy. And she sewed and did a lot of things like that. And she made like 50 costumes for Armenian historical costumes that were spectacular. And we donate donated them to the Armenian Museum in Boston, where they have them and they display them.
06:09
JS: So your mom did like more Armenian art or traditional cultural ̶
06:15
M: the costumes, like she researched all the history, and all the costumes of women of the various periods starting in pre Christian times, all the way up to you know, the World War I time, and she did all the costumes. It is unbelievable. But I do not have pictures of all of them. But I have pictures of a couple I can possibly send you. Plus she did an oral history project to where she went to. There was an Armenian nursing home in Jamaica Plain Massachusetts. It was all Armenian elderly people. And she did an oral history where she would go in and tape them talking about their experiences during World War I, during the genocide ̶
06:56
AD: So those are the survivors.
06:57
M: The survivors of the genocide, and that we also donated to the museum.
07:03
JS: Wow. It is fascinating.
07:05
M: It is. Yeah.
07:09
AD: It is, it actually is. So when you were ̶ So when did you move to Binghamton?
07:13
M: When I got married. And ̶
07:15
AD: So, you grew up in Boston.
07:18
M: I grew up in Boston? Yep. Where there is a big Armenian community. Yes.
07:22
AD: Okay. Even today, it still continues ̶
07:24
M: Oh, yeah. Okay. So, can you tell me how your surrounding ̶ like, your house ̶ when you were growing up? When you go to your friend's house, like, did your house look different? Are ̶ you know, like ̶
07:42
M: No not really. No, it was pretty similar. My parents were pretty Europeanized. And I do not think that there was anything that would distinct ̶ distinguish us from my friends homes or anything like that. My best friend was Armenian. But that just kind of happened growing up because her parents were friends with my parents. So I do not feel in any way that I grew up feeling different. I went to high school, I went to an all-girls Catholic High School in Boston, where everybody was either Italian or Irish. There is a huge Irish population there. And then I felt a little different because my family you know, did not we went to an Armenian Orthodox Church and this and that, but I never really felt like it has stigmatized me I had a lot of friends and things so did I answer your question?
08:27
AD: Yes. So you did not have anything represents Armenian culture in ̶ like your decorations?
08:36
M: No.
08:36
AD: Nothing like ̶
08:38
M: In my house or my parents’ house?
08:40
AD: In your house or in your parents’ house.
08:45
M: I am trying to think but it was long time ago ̶
08:46
AD: You said made costumes. Was she also, also like, like crochet ̶ you know, stuff like that.
08:55
M: My grandmother did things like that, that my mother had. But my mother did not do those things. And when I was growing up, my mother was not even really that involved with doing those kinds of things that she later went on to do with her research and her book writing and things like that. I see.
09:10
AD: I see. So how about food?
09:13
M: Oh, yes, food? Definitely. We ate Armenian food, which we still love to go and eat Middle Eastern food because it is part of our culture and what we love so the food definitely, yeah.
09:24
AD: And how about your house? Like when you can? Yeah, like, ah, did you eat Armenian food growing out?
09:34
Daughter: That tradition continued? Yeah, yes,
09:38
AD: Food continues language ends, but food continues.
09:42
M: Language did not end either. But it did end with my kids. Unfortunately, that is where I do blame myself that my husband is also Armenian, and he can understand but he does not speak at all. So it became a little bit of an impediment for me just like on an everyday basis to just speak the language but she [referring to her daughter] because she hung out with my mother and me all the time. Got a real earful of Armenian. So she understands a lot more than she even gives herself credit for. I think, yeah.
10:09
Daughter: I wish I spoke fluently, but ̶
10:12
AD: Well, if you have it, so maybe if you visit, yeah, you know, Armenia then or hang out with more Armenian speaking people.
10:24
Daughter: Absolutely. Even after a week of being around extended family, you see yourself understanding more than you even did prior to that. So ̶
10:34
AD: Absolutely. One day. Yeah, yeah. Why not?
10:36
JS: So you said your there was a big Armenian community in Boston. Were you friends with a lot of them? Did you guys have like parties? Or events ̶
10:43
M: Yes, it was fun being a young person in Boston, those days. I belong to the church, the ASA, the Armenian Student Association. And then when I went to college, I belong to another Armenian young adult organization. And there were always dances and I was in a play, speaking in Armenian, I mean, all this crazy stuff, but it was very fun. And actually, my best friend was also Armenian. And we did not even know we were Armenian. Until after we got to know each other and like, “Oh, my gosh, your Armenian too?” Oh, yes. There was ̶ It was great. It was really nice. We had a lot of fun.
11:18
JS: That is good. So is that how you met your husband? Or?
11:20
M: No, we were set up on a blind date.
11:23
JS: Oh really?
11:23
M: Yes. By family? Yeah. Because I have family here in Binghamton. And we were here to visit them once and his elderly aunt met me and thought, “Oh, she might work for my nephew.” So that was how that got set up.
11:40
JS: Interesting.
11:40
AD: So were you expected to marry an Armenian?
11:45
M: You know, you probably think I was but there was not any pressure on me to do so. My mother just said marry the person you love. And my father was never very Armenian in his, in his sentiment and his identity. And my father was very much of like an artistic type who really kind of felt closer to France and all that rather than he did to Armenian but my mother was very Armenian, but she never impose that on me. No.
12:08
AD: How about you with your ̶ How many children do you have?
12:12
M: My daughter and my son who is older? Yeah. I never did ̶
12:17
Daughter: I think it was always something that they recognize would be an asset in a relationship if you had that shared cultural background and understanding of each other. But there was never an expectation attached to it.
12:28
AD: So how do you identify yourself?
12:30
Daughter: Very Armenian? Like, like my mother said, I grew up very close to my, my grandmother and other relatives. And that was always such a fundamental part of their identity that even more than my brother, I think I took that on and I really identify with it.
12:47
AD: Are you married?
12:48
Daughter: Yes.
12:40
AD: Do you have children?
12:51
Daughter: No.
12:51
M: She just got married.
12:52
Daughter: A couple of ̶ three months ago. [laughs]
12:56
AD: Oh, congratulations. How about your brother? Is he married?
12:58
Daughter: He is and two children too.
13:01
AD: So how about his children? Do they identify themselves with the Armenian ̶
13:07
Daughter: There ̶ His wife is European, very Western European. My brother like I said, it is not as much of a part of his identity as it is with mine. It comes through ̶ my mother introduces them to Armenian music.
13:21
M: And I spoke to them in Armenian sometimes when I can they understand body parts, you know, in the Armenian language and things like your toes or whatever.
13:31
Daughter: But I guess time will tell a little bit. They are still very young, so.
13:35
AD: And still a lot is going on in that part of the world. It is good to know that language that is for sure. Yeah. Any languages from that part of the world is really vital. I think.
13:49
JS: Did you guys ever go back to visit Armenia? Or ̶
13:53
M: So going back I told you, my parents sent me between high school and college I spent more than I actually loved it so much in Beirut that I was always supposed, yes. Okay. So I was just turned 18. I took this whole trip all by myself, stayed with my relatives in Syria and in Lebanon, and then ended up staying in Lebanon and loving it so much that I asked my parents that I could go to school there and I went to AUB [American University in Beirut] for two semesters. But then when we started dodging rockets coming from here and there, my parents said “Come home immediately,” so ̶
14:28
JS: Was that during the Civil War?
14:29
M: Yes. The beginning of the Civil War. Yes.
14:31
JS: you were there. Were other Armenians there as well? I would imagine. So yeah.
14:37
M: Oh, huge, huge amount of population of Armenians. Right there. Yes. Yep. Yeah, but I loved it. It was fabulous.
14:46
JS: Yeah, a lot of the food in Lebanon and elsewhere in the Middle East is influenced by Armenian, a lot of the, the meat. I know you guys call them differently.
14:56
AD: Köfte
14:56
M: Yes, köfte, we call it köfte too.
14:59
JS: Oh, you do okay, okay. [laughter]
15:02
M: Absolutely, and we have the dolma, which is like the stuffed zucchini and cabbages and
15:07
Daughter: Grape leaves ̶
15:07
M: Grape leaves, yeah with different kinds of stuffing
15:12
AD: Fasulye.
15:12
M: Fasulye, oh, yeah. Like in my freezer right now. So yeah ̶
15:17
AD: Absolutely. It is the same food. It is just, you know, everybody ̶ like the ethnicity of the food so you can separate.
15:27
JS: It is hard to determine ̶
15:29
AD: From Greece all the way to you know, [indistinct]. You cannot separate it. It is just so intertwined. Yeah, yes.
15:40
Daughter: Absolutely.
15:40
AD: We all eat the same food.
15:42
M: Yes. And it is good, healthy, really delicious food.
15:48
Daughter: She, she is a really good cook.
15:53
M: Oh, [indistinct]
15:54
JS: you cannot say otherwise. You have to say ̶
15:56
Daughter: Oh, that is ̶
15:57
M: That is right. I am twisting her arm behind the scene so you better tell them I am a good cook.
16:02
JS: I would have to do that for my mom.
16:07
M: Oh, she is for sure.
16:08
JS: All right, so you mentioned religion when you came to the US. So back in Beirut, there was a big? Well, you do not quite remember it. But when you grew up here with religion and stuff, there was a lot of Catholic in Boston, right? As the most orthodox was that any barrier to ̶
16:26
M: But there was a big Armenian population there. There are five Armenian churches in the greater Boston area. The different parts of you know, different kind of factions, if you will, of the Armenian Church, the different kind of philosophical slash political beliefs that lead to different kinds of churches. But we were part of the Holy Trinity Armenian Church, and that was where I grew up going. It is a beautiful big church. Right. Yeah. That was there already. When? When we went to Boston.
16:54
JS: Okay. And did you ever go back to Armenia itself?
16:58
M: I have never been to Armenia, I have never been there.
17:01
JS: You do not have any relatives, family there? No,
17:04
M: No.
17:07
AD: How about Istanbul?
17:08
M: I have never been there. And I just feel like all the family ̶ My Turkish people that grew up in Turkey, ended up the ones that I know, have ended up either in Lebanon or Syria.
17:20
AD: So they left, because I ̶ my research deals with non-Muslim groups in Istanbul. And yeah, some people left but like a lot of Armenians from Istanbul, they do not end up leaving ̶ but there are some yes, but, but a lot of them stayed.
17:47
M: That is very ̶ I am sure that is true. I do not like I said, the only people I knew from Istanbul were my paternal grandparents and I do not have any history on why they would have left and why they ended up in Lebanon, I have no idea.
18:01
AD: You could do that research. You could find your ̶
18:05
M: I think that is probably in my future. And I would love to get some help.
18:10
AD: I will help you.
18:11
M: Thank you. I was just going to kind of put that in there, somewhere, yeah.
18:15:
AD: I will help you, yeah.
18:16
M: Because my, my uncle who's still alive, he is in his 90s. Now he sent me like a little family tree with pictures, but it only went back two generations, like his parents, so that on the fourth generation, way from where he came, but I would like to know why they went. I know my mother's mother was born in Antep, Gaziantep I think it is called now, they came from what I was told was a wealthy family there have an Armenian kind of area in Turkey. But I guess when the war started, they just left everything. But they were close enough to Aleppo to not get into some of the difficulties that some of the others did, leaving the country. So they just took a train left everything behind, ended up in Aleppo, where the Syrians had a really amazing social services’ system set up for the people, the refugees from the war, so they had them housed and fed and my grandmother was teaching English unbelievably enough in an Armenian school that got set up in for the orphans in Aleppo. And that was how she met my grandfather, who was a lawyer, actually, he went to law school Istanbul, my grandfather on my mother's side, but then he went back to Aleppo afterwards to practice law.
19:34
AD: Yeah, is it ̶ but the ̶ what I know of the Armenian ̶ majority of non-Muslim population, especially Armenians, they were like really well educated group of people.
19:51
M: Yeah, I my family that has always been stressed. We all you know, doctors, engineers. I have a master's degree clinical social work so and so does my daughter. I mean, we stressed education and my husband has a degree from, from University of Pennsylvania. I mean that, that has always been not financial wealth as much as just really education was always stressed.
20:13
JS: Okay. Yeah. Can you tell us more about your family's history on your mother's side? The one that you know that that is really interesting.
20:21
M: So what do you want me to state ̶ So, so my grandfather's family was there, he went to Istanbul and got his law degree, went back met my grandmother, who was one of the refugees from Turkey, fell in love got married, they had six children in eleven years. And my grandfather became a circuit judge in northern Syria. So they had like ̶ each kid was practically born in a different part. My mother was born in Italy, her younger sister was born in Deir ez-Zor or others born in Aleppo. And then I think the youngest one was born in Damascus, but I could be wrong about that. I cannot remember. So they traveled a lot. But my mother loved Aleppo. Aleppo was very special for her, because that was where she was really little. And ̶ everybody was looking at their phone.
21:12
Daughter: Sorry about that.
21:16
M: So and then, when my mother was I do not know how old she was really, she was still ̶ she went to an Armenian Elementary School in Damascus, because then he got transferred to Damascus. And so my grandfather had quite a stature in his community, in the Armenian community in Damascus. And the Armenian Pope, the pope from Etchmiadzin in Armenia came to Damascus, and he stayed at my grandparents’ home. And they had all kinds of ceremonies and things like that this was a story my mom told over and over. So there was a lot of respect for, for my grandparents in the community. And then he became a member of parliament, and he represented the Armenian population in Syria. And while the French were still in Syria, but then when the French left and the Syrian government, you know, it kind of went into turmoil and all that, then he lost his position there. And then he died shortly after that. That enough, do you have more questions? [laughter]
22:15
JS: That is really interesting. Interesting. Wow. So do you know anything ̶ Do you know more about the French? Like, when Syria was under French control how, how life was there? Or ̶
22:28
M: I think they were very happy. And from what my mother tells me, the various religious minorities, whether it was the, you know, the Muslims, the Armenians, the Catholics, or whoever, they all got along very well. There was no problem. My, my, my grandparents had friends from all walks of life and from all various religious, ethnic backgrounds, and everybody was really comfortable. And I think the French let them be pretty much they did not try to impose them their culture on them so much, so they grew up in a pretty good place. Like I said, my mom went to French schools.
23:06
JS: Yeah. Oh, yeah, that is right. That is the French Connection.
23:07
M: The French Connection. The Franciscan nuns, the French nuns, and my uncle's some ̶ My mother was five brothers and sisters, three brothers and two sisters. So the boys went to a French boy school and the daughters went to a Franciscan.
23:22
JS: Interesting. So what, what really ̶ do you know what happened after when the French when Syria gained independence? Why did, why did your grandfather get kicked out of ̶
23:35
M: I do not know exactly why, but I guess, um it just kind of happened because the Syrians maybe did not identify the Armenians as, as a group that needed to be represented in the parliament. I do not know exactly. But I know that it was very difficult for him afterwards. And he was only in his early 60s and he died of a heart attack shortly after that was very stressful for him. Yeah.
24:01
AD: I am sure it was the stress.
24:03
M: Yeah, yeah.
24:06
JS: What time is ̶ Okay. See if you have any other questions, do you have anything?
24:13
AD: No.
24:15
JS: Do you have anything you want to add on or say? Anything about your family? Anything you can recall, but anything you experienced that was Armenian or linked to Armenia?
24:27
M: Well, my family is dispersed all over the world. And we all maintain our Armenian heritage very closely. We get together as much as we can. We are very close. So I think part of that is just due to our Armenian background, you know,
24:42
JS: Yeah. Do you guys ever like you said mentioned your whole family's around the world? Do you guys ever do like a big family?
24:48
M: Oh, yeah.
24:49
JS: Oh you do?
24:50
M: We just had one about two years ago in Canada, but we have done it in France. We have done it, um ̶ When I was little, we went back to the Middle East with my mom and we spent a whole Somewhere in the Middle East, but I was still little, you know, at that time, so, but I remember oh wait a minute I do remember, I was in my grandmother's kitchen, and that was when Saddam not Saddam. Okay, I am the president of Syria. Oh, Hafez Al Assad was there was a coup d'etat while we were there. This was in 1963. There and so we were at this reunion, and there was a coup d'etat going on, I was in my grandmother's kitchen, all of us. There was like, I have twenty-three cousins, and my mom has lots of siblings and my grandmother and all these people. And they started like guns going off in the street. And they did. They did were curfews. Thank you where you can, you know, leave after so we would all just hang around in one house and the kids. We were having a ball, but the adults were. But then we went to Beirut, and then we you know, got a house and big fire all of us all together. It was great. But yeah ̶
25:55
JS: It is a good place.
25:57
M: Oh, it is so beautiful. I remember that. I remember mountain climbing and just running and playing all day long. It was so beautiful.
26:04
JS: Yes. It is very known to being an Armenian ̶ Armenian place.
26:08
M: Is that so I did not know. Yeah.
26:10
JS: Yeah, Yeah. It is, also it is also a good place for skiing as well. It is up there.
26:15
M: Yeah. Yes, it is. Yeah. It had red dirt. I remember mountain climbing coming home, my mother being mad because our clothes were covered in red soil, and she could not wash out. But yeah, it is a beautiful place.
26:28
JS: Interesting. I do not know what to add.
26:33
AD: Okay. Um, did you hear from your mom, or your dad, like, anything related to the Armenian Genocide?
26:47
M: You know, I was just telling my daughter that I never knew that was a genocide until I went to the Middle East. And even then it was not like it was not a cocktail party conversation. And the only way that I heard it was because my, my mother sister that I am very close to ̶ used to take me on her visiting days when they would go to different lady's houses, and they would have coffee and pastries and stuff. And one of the ladies there was, they would all say she was to be in a Turkish harem. And they said it was because during the war, she was a little girl, and somebody put her in a harem. And then anyway, I do not know how she got out of the harem. I do not know what happened. But I remember saying how did that happen? And they told me Well, there was a war and a lot of Armenians died or, or were killed or went through these death marches. And she was just taken on. But they also said, and this is something I wanted to stress too, you know, yes, it was terrible. And the government made these choices that killed all those Armenians, but the average Turkish person, somebody's neighbor, somebody's friend, we were doing everything they could to help the Armenians behind the scenes, you know,
27:52
AD: Yeah, they are friends, neighbors ̶ Wouldn't you help someone ̶
27:57
M: Absolutely. But I guess their point was, they did not want the whole thing to seem as though there was some monstrous thing going on with everybody participating. It was just kind of ̶
28:06
AD: Yeah, not everybody. Yeah, it was it was political. And then a couple of people decided it was ̶ all political concerns, right? What is going on today? But people that ̶ help each other?
28:21
M: Yes. But I think it was on my parents got divorced. And my mother married a Hungarian man who lived through the war, and then Revolution and the Russian takeover of Hungary. So he was a refugee that went to Boston from Hungary. And so he really, I think, was kind of an impetus for my mother to start researching more about what happened with Armenians and the genocide. And, um so that was when I learned more and more about it, and, yeah ̶
28:50
AD: Because up until the nineteenth century, you know, the, the word is millet. It is like people with book ̶ religious book, like either Jews or Armenians or Greek, you know. They had some rights. It was not like, they do not mean ̶ they were minority. But it was not like, like in the nineteenth century, that they lost everything. It was like that. So but it is all political. Now, fortunately, right? It has happened, but it is. So you do not mean this to arrive or that you recall from your family ̶
29:41
M: As I said, my maternal grandmother left but it was not. It was not a really traumatic, it was very hard for the family because they left everything behind. But there was no physical danger that they were in or anything like that. But on my, my husband's father's side, he grew up in Hadjin [Saimbeyli]. I do not know what it is called. It is like a mountainous area with his family, his father was a priest. And the whole family left and went to Marseilles when things first started, but my father in law who was born the same year as my, my grandmother, so he was born in 1902. Okay, my father in law, so now he would have been like a hundred eighteen years old. So he was a child during World War I. And he got left behind with an elderly relative who could not travel. So he went through a lot. And he thought a lot being where he was, and not being and being fifteen. But somehow, he made it to Marseilles at some point, I do not know details, because he could never talk about it. I think his whole life, he probably had a lot of PTSD as a result of it. Post traumatic. Yeah.
30:54
AD: Yeah. It was not an easy time. That is for sure.
30:55
JS: So when you were ̶ you said you found out when you were in Lebanon? Did you feel like the Armenians, the Armenian community did not really talk about it? Or did they? It felt like something they just want to leave behind? Or ̶
31:10
M: I do not think so I think there are definite groups of Armenians that, you know, wanted, I do not want to say we banned, but wanted it. And I think all Armenians just out of the sake of you know, after the Jewish Holocaust, there was retribution and all that. And that there, there needs to be some sort of closure, some sort of admission and closure. Nobody wants to go take lands back, as far as I know, at least people I know, do not do not want to do that. They just want to sense a closure. And a sense of Yes, you did go through that. And it was terrible. But it is all behind us now. And we can move on from there. You know, and I think we all agree on that. But there are some that are a little more militant than that. I do not know if they are still like that. But when I was a kid growing up in Boston, there were some people that used to get a little more worked up over it.
31:57
AD: Absolutely.
31:57
JS: Yeah that makes sense.
31:58
AD: Yeah, absolutely, um. Go ahead.
32:09
JS: I am thinking I am thinking,
32:11
AD: I had something, but I forgot right now.
32:12
JS: Okay. Um, do you ever plan to go back to do live there? I mean, or like visit one more time, or ̶
32:21
M: If the political situation is not as bad as it is now. I would never go back right now. My, my aunt and my cousin are actually in Damascus, and they are living there. They went to Beirut, when the war was really going on in Syria really badly. They got an apartment in Beirut, and they seem to be doing well. But my aunt was in her eighties just was not happy there. She wanted to be back in her hometown. So when things quite a done in Damascus, her daughter helped, you know, went with her just so that she would not be alone. And they are there. And it worries me now whenever I hear the news and what is going on, but they are so used to it. Not, not to say not to normalize it, but in some ways, you know ̶
33:02
JS: Yeah, yeah. I know what you mean.
33:05
AD: Well, you can always go back to Istanbul. They are like, maybe you do not know your relatives, but the architecture is ̶ like wonderful. Oh, yeah. Armenian architects. And that is my thing, architectural history. So well. I mean, they are, like, beautiful examples of the architecture and the cuisine. Like the ̶ Istanbul the food ̶ It is definitely Armenian and Greek ̶ combination of that Greek culture.
33:42
M: Right.
33:42
AD: It is, it is really, really delicious.
33:44
M: Right, well, my mother used to make Istanbul dishes from learning from her mother in law. And those were my favorites always. They are really good.
33:52
AD: Yeah, it is. It is unbelievable. So and then, you know, the churches.
33:57
M: And the mosques. I know though. Yeah. But also there are like,
34:02
AD: Yeah, but also there are like ̶ beautiful Armenian churches, majority is Gregorian [the Armenian Apostolic Church], we have real a small number of Orthodox Armenians. The majority ̶ I am told about, like more than 90 percent is Gregorian.
34:18
M: Gregorian. I am not sure what ̶
34:20
AD: It is more I think protest.
34:22
M: Oh, okay.
34:23
AD: It is I but still, I think it is not like after the Reformation period, it is still before, but if they ̶ I do not know, I am not a big person. That is the Gregorian.
34:44
M: Okay. You know, I do not think I have ever quite heard that term before. Unfortunately.
34:50
AD: Really? Oh, that is, that is the majority of ̶ the sect.
34:56
M: Okay. But it is more Protestant. You said it is the Protestant.
34:59
AD: That is what I am thinking because it is not orthodox, we have some orthodox Armenians but it is like very small percentage but majority ̶ like Armenians, Assyrians they are Gregorian so do not ask me so much about it.
35:20
M: I am going to go home and Google it and learn about it.
35:26
AD: Yeah. [laughter]
35:26
M: But I ̶ my mother gave me a notebook that belonged to my ̶ It was like my grandfather her father's journal that he kept when he was young like he made the note that the day that my mother was born and wrote about his feelings about having a new daughter and it is beautiful but I cannot really read it because I do not read Armenian I speak it but I do not read it so but there is also a part in it about when he was in law school and about how much he loved Istanbul and again he talked about the architecture and the beauty of the of the land itself and the, the, the beauty of the country you know, so he was very impressed with it. Because he grew up in Aleppo very dry very yeah desert like can almost conditions so ̶
36:09
AD: And whereas Istanbul is all water. You know, you know, of course we have less green now. Thanks to all this unnecessary buildings, structures, but still is, still it is beautiful. I think it is.
36:31
M: Is that where you are from?
36:33
AD: Yes. That is where I am from. So I am not objective about it.
36:39
M: You do not have to be.
36:42
AD: [indistinct] hometown. Yeah, it is different. When you talk about your hometown, definitely.
36:52
JS: Okay. Well, I am just going to wrap up everything but before I do, I just wondering if you have anything else to add about food, culture, religion, experience is at think of any cultural thing. Traditional stuff?
37:10
M: I do not know. I do not think so. I think of anything ̶
37:15
AD: I have a question so like when you name your children? Do you pick Armenian names?
37:23
M: I did not. Although I my daughter's middle name is my mother's name, which was Armenian.
37:29
AD: Yeah.
37:29
M: And my ̶ But no, other than but my great grandma, my grandma, not my grandma. Yeah, yeah, my granddaughter's first name is my mother's name. Lusin. You have, you have seen her at the restaurant? The little girl, not the baby. But the other one. Yes. Her name is Lusin, which is my mother's name, which means moon and Armenian. And so, yes, but other than that, yeah, not. Because my name was always hard. Okay. And I had the one that has probably come to think of it. The one thing that did torment me was my name. Because No, none of my teachers could say it. And so my parents changed my name to Susan, when I was, when I was in elementary school. So somebody would call me Susan instead of Hey, you were Yeah, that one over there. So that was the only thing that I had problems with was my name. Yeah.
38:19
JS: Wow. Interesting.
38:22
M: Yeah, forgot about that
38:23
Daughter: Leaves an impression.
38:25
AD: Yeah. But ̶ I have five letter on my first name, okay. How different ̶ It is not like I have fifteen letter, all consonants together that you do not know how to pronounce it. Five letters. And I have like thirty different versions ̶ how my name spelled and pronounced.
38:49
M: Oh, join the club.
38:50
AD: I do not want to put in the tape now. Some of the things I was told. And I am like, “Really?” Like,
“How did you come up with that?”
39:00
M: Well, exactly. I can I can tell you I had the same experience that was shocking, because if you can read you can tell it that completely off base. But then, but my name is five letters to it is not that confusing.
39:17
AD: You know, Indian names and it stars and it never ends and you are like “Okay.” “How am I going to say that?” It is not like that ̶ five letters. You can come up with something easily. That is amazing to me. It is like, but that is, that is people's laziness. I think seriously, that is how I feel.
39:43
M: Right about I also think that now everybody's name is made up like everybody makes up their kids names. Well, when I was growing up, nobody had any different names than Kathy and Mary and a couple other names and if your name was different than you were different because of it. Which I did not mind. I just wanted them to pronounce my name correctly.
40:04
JS: Yeah.
40:04
AD: Yeah that I totally understand.
40:08
JS: The science of the names.
40:10
AD: You are happy your name is very easy.
40:13
JS: Three words ̶ three letters ̶ Joe
40:17
AD: How can you go wrong with that, right?
40:18
M: Yeah, you cannot go wrong with that.
40:20
JS: Less than a safe so you can just call me there Joe save or Joseph.
40:27
AD: That is easy.
40:28
M: That is easy.
40:30
JS: The only thing with me is that people look like wait your name is Joe. Are you sure? But do not think it is like Mohammed or something like ̶ yes like to make sure.
40:40
Daughter: To convince them
40:41
JS: Convince them.
40:43
AD: Because there is this conception that if you are from Middle- East you must be Muslim or Jewish. It is like you know, if you are a Christian that oh really there is still this you know, I mean if you are from the area you know that is normal but if you are not there is that concept in their mind like majority of the people are Muslim and ̶
41:10
M: That is right. Or they do not know the finer distinctions between ̶ I was born in Lebanon but I am Armenian you were born in Lebanon maybe but your ̶ you are Lebanese or you are Arab extraction whatever, but they do not they do not get that they, they we have Lebanese friends and they call us Lebanese too, because they know we were I was born in Lebanon. So I guess that makes me Lebanese in a way but I guess I really identify with Armenian and not Lebanese you know.
41:39
AD: People who are born and lived all their lives over there. I would say Lebanese Armenian or Turkish Armenian. You know what, like, because you are as much as Turkish if you were born and raised there.
41:59
M: Yeah.
42:00
AD: Like anybody else.
42:01
M: Right?
42:01
AD: That, that is not the ethnicity that ties you to the land.
42:07
M: That is right.
42:08
AD: You are from there. You know, you are from Istanbul and yes, you are from Istanbul. It does not matter what religion you have, what ethnicity you have, you belong that piece of land,
42:20
M: The exact words, but they, but they kind of inter interject the ethnicity into the piece of land you belong to and the language and the religion just go along with it. So it is kind of hard to pull it all apart for people sometimes I think.
42:33
AD: I know
42:34
JS: What, what I believe is might be a bit more like a counter you but I think like where you were born does not necessarily mean. That is who you are. Because I was born in Saudi Arabia. I am not ̶ definitely not Saudi Arabian.
42:49
AD: Come on now.
42:49
JS: I am ̶ no.
42:51
JS: I do not. I like ̶ that land means nothing to me. Just a piece of desert. And that is it.
42:58
AD: Yeah, but you were there for a short period of time. I am talking about people ̶
43:05
JS: That live there ̶
43:05
AD: Generations after generation, do not they think they deserve that, that they are from that piece of land?
43:14
M: Right. Sorry.
43:15
JS: ̶ Can contribute?
43:16
AD: Like they were there for three years or less?
43:19
AD: That is right. That is right. Okay. Hey, that is that is what I get.
43:23
M: Yeah, my, my mother's mother was born in Turkey. She left when she was I do not know how old I guess she was about fifteen when they went to Aleppo, but she spoke Turkish to her sisters her whole life. And I think she had a strong affinity to Turkey. And Antep. She cooked all the food that was really regional Antep cooking, which is awesome, too. You know?
43:46
AD: Yes it is and who knows? How many generations?
43:49
M: Oh, way back.
43:49
AD: ̶ lived here. That is what I am saying.
43:53
M: Exactly
43:53
AD: Yeah. Like something happened. This is all political. At the end of the World War I, like when everything became crazy in that part of the world. So they made this exchange like, for Greeks, like whoever lived in Turkey had to leave look like how shocking that is. They had to leave their motherland, that they been living there for centuries, and they had to go to Greece. Likewise, Turks who have been living in Greece need to leave there. And guess what those people never made that because they were always looked at as an outsider wherever they left. To me, that was the cruelest thing you can do to someone
44:43
M: Definitely being displaced. Yeah, that is a terrible thing. It is.
44:49
AD: It really is forceful, but ̶
44:53
AD: Yeah, so anything else, Joe?
44:56
JS: I do not have anything. No. Think¬ ̶
45:00
M: I do not ̶ I really
45:03
JS: I think it is a wrap.
45:05
AD: Thank you so much.
45:07
M: My pleasure. It was very fun. Very interesting. Very nice to meet you.
45:11
AD: Yes.
(End of Interview)
Date of Interview
6 January 2020
Interviewer
Aynur de Rouen and Joseph Seif
Interviewee
Mary
Biographical Text
Mary was born in Beirut, Lebanon to Armenian parents. Her family relocated to Boston, Massachusetts when she was young. She moved to the Broome County area after she married a Binghamton native. Mary has a Master's degree in Clinical Social Work. She is married with two children and grandchildren.
Duration
45:11
Language
English
Digital Format
Binghamton University
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Audio
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Keywords
Armenians, Beirut, Aleppo, Parents, Family, French, Turkish, Boston, Traditions, Armenian.
Files
Citation
“Interview with Mary,” Digital Collections, accessed May 25, 2025, https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2000.
